From nobody Thu Oct 5 12:48:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DA3133075 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 12:46:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8OhWXZUpaKd for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 12:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34C52132D89 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 12:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v95Jk4lc020756 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 21:46:04 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA66BEBF47 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 21:46:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id OfkP3wH3SEc1 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 21:46:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B593FEBAC3 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 21:46:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 21:46:03 +0200 Message-ID: <87o9pl2xac.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: babel@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Thu, 05 Oct 2017 21:46:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59D68BFC.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59D68BFC.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59D68BFC.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [babel] OT: what is the IETF? X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 19:46:10 -0000 Hi, and please forgive the off-topic. Next week, I'm giving a talk entitled "What the f*ck is the IETF, and what am I doing there?" at my department. It's the last talk of a very long day, so it needs to be funny and non-technical. I have some a fairly clear idea of what I'm going to tell, but if you've got any good anecdotes, jokes, or pieces of wisdom you think might be useful, I'm listening. Unfunny jokes only, please, I'm a lecturer and therefore professionally bound to make unfunny jokes. -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Oct 6 12:45:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F106134C6D for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:45:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CDtMgRyNPjJN for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19883134C7E for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id q132so9908154wmd.2 for ; Fri, 06 Oct 2017 12:45:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=580SUgIs0A/jbpX3UJcHLdb9P/fZs1Z63mG6OSGx+6I=; b=qBuvzWnZVK4Qc3x6vaXZJ4Qv06+9KTXMO13OIb3Gx7VF9QRhM9KiNNY1BtbSaKLXgs DaS794J5PjzrQwwYDeLxxs19FmOfxEuDBiW+rXNt/LE+rHRAYp5vGCvGJJq0o6aYbnjm 9MwqPw/f+KkG2uLObNFosBaUtqNH9anJUW1p+l5RvvD7a7uRd/Xm9XM4fhkmkG5O4GN6 phaJMAEZU5EDszv/JflDH90wl8OZNCeQHAHzDobIaxEIGU8rHJr2d+uC/bdzMoFEMsrM 5cR8z5VFPMbwUjaOp5MEOWGPPv4xMTmlQhQ0ssTHIbQAN/+2j2+kTLIECxDu/v4785Nd GGlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=580SUgIs0A/jbpX3UJcHLdb9P/fZs1Z63mG6OSGx+6I=; b=qKiIuSoSG/+pD5UYvIqvW9lPJiXqkJAuw1MLkJyUKQ6Etwkhsnpyb4ztJGCFJf3Tgv 4vzYvI9D+yMkjijJYFDQ6Viwv1Fr0OqXp48+f7dANiCkrOW8OvLmXOU4ShXMzCskGCfl 6FQs/761OGmq/ADjF0vOSIgeH+BKN4M8vaEzg5YKRkHCgRU2qhADDyYlODHRtOu/cX0T pGK4/0eagigEPG/QFCX/gi2HQWxaZS/KkfyJjWBRwGjfQDZcU7TwQPCRYRgeo32a/B/e Wt13F8QCFRTVmyJmoLS8zFDquU7GQ/rrWk8B6X1P0vZq+rw08O+TqMGL5oplr4ZF0S+s 2qTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVJc4NhA47NyIvddS0G1bL5qVk9ohmb+s3kh2hY9M6/Wv8vK1b1 P0XJg6SLnAXNLhlyeBn9U/jhOuotRu8J3wabXNeOmg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QDAxU7YjQN5Zcnbj5P2L6K3eUyev9PUcXaGhL2Ah8Utx7dVplfIDBL9myGxrGAvBGYpoCVl2AjTp32Pe6XEKCA= X-Received: by 10.80.216.66 with SMTP id v2mr4663008edj.121.1507319154546; Fri, 06 Oct 2017 12:45:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.186.203 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:45:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:45:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e08222158c51aa7055ae616cb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] babel Digest, Vol 26, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 19:45:58 -0000 --089e08222158c51aa7055ae616cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Look @ some of the Guta Percha talks. There was a good one about "how IP works" which could give you ideas ... I encourage your talk as well @ next Guta Percha ;-) --- tony On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 12:00 PM, wrote: > Send babel mailing list submissions to > babel@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > babel-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > babel-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of babel digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. OT: what is the IETF? (Juliusz Chroboczek) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Juliusz Chroboczek > To: babel@ietf.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 21:46:03 +0200 > Subject: [babel] OT: what is the IETF? > Hi, and please forgive the off-topic. > > Next week, I'm giving a talk entitled "What the f*ck is the IETF, and what > am I doing there?" at my department. It's the last talk of a very long > day, so it needs to be funny and non-technical. I have some a fairly > clear idea of what I'm going to tell, but if you've got any good > anecdotes, jokes, or pieces of wisdom you think might be useful, I'm > listening. > > Unfunny jokes only, please, I'm a lecturer and therefore professionally > bound to make unfunny jokes. > > -- Juliusz > > > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel > > --089e08222158c51aa7055ae616cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Look @ some of the Guta Percha talks. There was a good one= about "how IP works" which could give you ideas ...=C2=A0
I encourage your talk as well @ next Guta Percha ;-)=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0
=
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 12:00 PM, <ba= bel-request@ietf.org> wrote:
babel@ietf.or= g

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/babel
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 babel= -request@ietf.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 babel-o= wner@ietf.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of babel digest..."

Today's Topics:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01. OT: what is the IETF? (Juliusz Chroboczek)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Juliusz Chrob= oczek <jch@irif.fr>
To:=C2=A0babel@ietf.org
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2= =A0
Date:=C2=A0Thu, 05 Oct 2017 21:46:03 +0200
Subject:=C2=A0[babel] = OT: what is the IETF?
Hi, and please forgive the off-topic.

Next week, I'm giving a talk entitled "What the f*ck is the IETF, = and what
am I doing there?" at my department.=C2=A0 It's the last talk of a= very long
day, so it needs to be funny and non-technical.=C2=A0 I have some a fairly<= br> clear idea of what I'm going to tell, but if you've got any good anecdotes, jokes, or pieces of wisdom you think might be useful, I'm listening.

Unfunny jokes only, please, I'm a lecturer and therefore professionally=
bound to make unfunny jokes.

-- Juliusz



_______________________________________________
babel mailing list
babel@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel


--089e08222158c51aa7055ae616cb-- From nobody Sun Oct 8 13:05:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2821C134939 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 13:04:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xndqlqBqYooS for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4B671241F3 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id u130so36658085oib.11 for ; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bvR7e9uaqAu5nCH7h5S2CvtOHd2GONbvU+86/NU5b/A=; b=jX+7cHZCdHvZ07xArv939UuWVBP4ij5tWmnarLEzWjuB9tJrLWtkEuzvf3ld9hk2em 5xYmt1JX6qMImD9ahg2C8XTsVRGukj8F6B/qtTUn9K5pJsIbmQF1ztPn3h13nT6qbZ9W /aGXx/mNwB5nlgLyN7OTi2WEvE3eprkH93ZES6r3H/BG7rx7c/SviefBz6FJL9dWHwE5 phmPFlY4HkQU952z/102Wk8ptrAXRs/21xixd53D5GCJW7wXDL3MfxzJLJr7zdY6a1Nf ZB3gHSda6hdOCJYeVzoyt2UsbQyZ5f+UK91DCk0XWU+y200QZDFF1GMnCFW32BCF3Qc3 pnZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bvR7e9uaqAu5nCH7h5S2CvtOHd2GONbvU+86/NU5b/A=; b=ne4qZAOzDzULyGQ/7vqqDCg1GJVyyniK5WvZmRXvYgVVDO+RBNtUlb4bHRdNJ29qCJ KqnOE0aAgNVcBOtLavY0U0m/MvXRnAhnYOL7G34hHALj0yIwRkJI87ooS6XQ0E7O5gA9 g0hRlCCCGLUl4TCTCfm0Znfezc+EzqKzKCdsP8RAYk65wyt4VbleW9raCnBptizSZRrj 5tiesUbnzRORnpOSnCSffU885cildwRaWwqh8uICh2aWZeVSPKeNT0u3Ji+32tqd+lW4 p34TFHutr2wzU4GWmJ5HHKmlykpkBhtj4t/XPsWZPgp04uQOLm5Mf1Dv8VhtUCCNqSE3 034A== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWpyIE4bYiAwc1bCCNxrQVUje9yt+OkHZOBter9Wdu0BCwSFsHT gJniZnku6G5cKR0z3vPhFA7culbKENYSDfZRF9fz1y+b X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QDSS2nm/ULlV7NYBl5KgNcYdot2hvZnEgUPjEEzmWWl5k+aGJmNU4cIY5Us436JlmGUP9zTKUuMRNx5TBKX9aM= X-Received: by 10.157.33.79 with SMTP id l15mr6114122otd.124.1507493096588; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:04:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.168.73.134 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 13:04:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2017 16:04:41 -0400 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11428ea4860a45055b0e9613" Archived-At: Subject: [babel] Call for presentations at the Singapore IETF BABEL meeting X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2017 20:04:59 -0000 --001a11428ea4860a45055b0e9613 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, If you would like to present at the BABEL WG meeting in Singapore at IETF 100, please send mail to babel-chairs@ietf.org. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com --001a11428ea4860a45055b0e9613 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

If you would like to present at the= BABEL WG meeting in Singapore at IETF 100, please send mail to=C2=A0babel-chairs@ietf.org.
Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
= =C2=A0155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
=C2=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com
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Tue, 10 Oct 2017 04:14:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.165.5 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 04:13:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201710101440265850265@zte.com.cn> References: <201710101440265850265@zte.com.cn> From: Gabriel Kerneis Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 13:13:23 +0200 Message-ID: To: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Cc: Babel at IETF , Juliusz Chroboczek , boutier@irif.fr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c142f6cadd6b9055b2f6769" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Hi all, about BIER in Babel extension X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:15:41 -0000 --94eb2c142f6cadd6b9055b2f6769 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:40 AM, wrote: > Hi all, > > > I submitted the code for BIER in Babel extension to this link: > > https://github.com/SandyZhang2015/BIER_in_Babel201710 > > ( I am sorry that the name is too long, next time I will use a shorter > name ;-) ) > > This code is based on Juliusz's code. (https://github.com/jech/babeld) > > Hope that I have found the right code and submitted it right. > I'm sorry, Sandy, but this still suffers from the issues raised during your talk: you should fork https://github.com/jech/babeld and make clean commits on top of it to be reviewed, instead of a single huge "initial version" commit that also includes babeld files, and doesn't allow to see where you branched from easily. Best, Gabriel --94eb2c142f6cadd6b9055b2f6769 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:40 AM, <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> = wrote:

Hi all,


I submit= ted the code for BIER in Babel extension to this link:=C2=A0

https://github.com/SandyZhang2<= wbr>015/BIER_in_Babel201710

( I am sorry that the name is too long, next time I will use a short= er name ;-) )

This code is= based on Juliusz's code.=C2=A0(https://github.com/jech/babeld)

Hope that I have found the right cod= e and submitted it right.


I'm= sorry, Sandy, but this still suffers from the issues raised during your ta= lk: you should fork https://github.com/jech/babeld and make clean commits on top of i= t to be reviewed, instead of a single huge "initial version" comm= it that also includes babeld files, and doesn't allow to see where you = branched from easily.

Best,
Gabriel

--94eb2c142f6cadd6b9055b2f6769-- From nobody Tue Oct 10 16:33:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381B61342FF for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 16:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uxHN2FzrP-Rs for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 16:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D089133057 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 16:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 9889B3B740552315D589; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 07:33:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp01.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.200]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with SMTP id v9ANXhkN057783; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 07:33:44 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp04[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid203; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 07:33:44 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 07:33:44 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afc59dd58d841b-37e07 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <201710110733442858570@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: CAL0WyWzNyR9h7TvyLojNFZqCR82Adut2HxMMBbPdcxSzrFd7rg@mail.gmail.com References: 201710101440265850265@zte.com.cn, CAL0WyWzNyR9h7TvyLojNFZqCR82Adut2HxMMBbPdcxSzrFd7rg@mail.gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , , , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn v9ANXhkN057783 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] =?utf-8?q?Hi_all=2C_about_BIER_in_Babel_extension?= X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." 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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRvbjvcZxVcA for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 16:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAE10132FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 16:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9ANjIHS031320; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 01:45:18 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA80EB287; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 01:45:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id sOX0LSlDNScH; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 01:45:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C221EEB286; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 01:45:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 01:45:16 +0200 Message-ID: <87infmlg8j.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Cc: In-Reply-To: <201710110733442858570@zte.com.cn> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 11 Oct 2017 01:45:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59DD5B8E.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59DD5B8E.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59DD5B8E.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Hi all, about BIER in Babel extension X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 23:46:46 -0000 Hi Sandy, > I cloned the code from (https://github.com/jech/babeld). > But I can't push the code to Juliusz's branch because permission deny. So I > just upload the whole project to my branch. That's okay. If you put your changes over my tree, and push your tree to your repository, anyone can combine the two trees with a simple "git remote add ...", "git remote update". Note that my tree has a branch called "rfc6126bis", which I'm planning to merge into trunk as soon as 6126bis gets into last call. Since you're using mandatory bits, that's the branch you should be working on. -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Oct 12 14:35:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45AF1342D1 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 14:35:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vjLCRdCOxuQ2 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 14:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB11F132941 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9CLZ2Wl016664 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:35:02 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9CLZ1WU021445 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:35:02 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8ADEB287 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:35:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id jPLGOKB6rhgl for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:35:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 02B10EB286 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:35:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:35:00 +0200 Message-ID: <87infk9hiz.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: babel@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:35:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Thu, 12 Oct 2017 23:35:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59DFE006.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59DFE005.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59DFE006.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59DFE005.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59DFE006.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59DFE005.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [babel] OT: IETF talk in Paris X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 21:35:07 -0000 I've just given the IETF talk I mentioned earlier. It went well, and I think I've managed to do something that was both fun and informative. I said only nice things about the IETF. I quoted RFC 1217 (thanks for the suggestion, Barbara). I said nasty things about the old AT&T of the 1980s and the old French PTT (standardisation through monopoly contrasted with standardisation through consensus), about Microsoft (standardisation of OOXML), about ISO (who still don't make their standards freely available), about the contractors who did our building (not respecting the relevant security standards) and -- just for the heck of it -- about Category Theory. The Category Theorists were disappointed, they thought I was too soft. Thanks to those who sent suggestions, I've integrated a number of them. I'm not sharing my slides, what is funny during a talk can be offensive if you only have the slides. I'll finish rfc6126bis Real Soon Now. I promise. -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Oct 20 17:26:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietf.org Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB6C134478; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: babel@ietf.org, akatlas@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150854545564.20809.2061958130062517148.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:15 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [babel] babel - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:24:16 -0000 Dear Donald Eastlake, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. babel Session 1 (1:30:00) Friday, Morning Session I 0930-1130 Room Name: VIP A size: 100 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Babel routing protocol Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Donald Eastlake Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 45 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: netconf netmod rtgwg idr lpwan homenet manet mptcp Second Priority: dnsop 6man v6ops trill i2rs Third Priority: saag isis ospf dnssd People who must be present: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd Russ White Alia Atlas Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Oct 21 13:23:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACEF13214D; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:23:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QswsTKZ8hxU8; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x229.google.com (mail-oi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C7DD132D41; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id g125so25093572oib.12; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:23:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HUb4ACfM/d5QUmTlg06/eWf7DeCfWUDseoDjpgosCCY=; b=KlFgcNzBV4JStBIH8GtABhvtrcHuJRDfLyTnmxP8EuSjqzgXTYIisuY88lfCTP1IHR MHE50wRhZ39guaksxVK9qPclq0V0tslvZTdAzGIvy7gHpMrSmgY9t5QXkpY+wBc7RNYi NP3wgPTWvT1f82CCyIw/UVZU0MkkXn1aE1XlV73ZFSyz+0yrkJPYBk2Pus6MuoU6Yd0V 0tYpE7MMsj14WP1F0mOyGzY9esa3UcEM/aRBESJ5kTIVmwEr0yBCcZPDXp5xocY7Uap5 bsLwScoJRzxIfetni0dbKb3nYVdmHAhxUx/neONinHvOWeG4Gy5Sh4xXJA+T/R3GZJn8 yRgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HUb4ACfM/d5QUmTlg06/eWf7DeCfWUDseoDjpgosCCY=; b=sVfEJg9WJKlu/HeKiEOsUYcsrMmzlHJ08jqXv1rDwbUUqw+HQkm/5dkvZe5z6IX5dK lv+hkUtIQrY5/w5/treXKfoRbZY+EnVw9NTVwZ8Py5WEAu63hArCBJ6u66U+6BYJR7lq JYF3eSE/wMqYMBa1KaCzTrAqJY2bXtdTQiCuJ2M/3GC2ENk+GC7At9wE83aP3E5COyRt Lb3wqR0jcNAGErVZbULXSAOwOM6R2k7Gv4wqtD91sjVls/o2koFkeJOXfa/ya0bU9wlF VgbpeBmYv1ZGkeCaniVU+ZvhM5OoSyv/SXrn8EYNaEdIyFmrflhNmQoI0H/HLLmCrzb6 H2TQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVcYTFLaS8z1Ea8gvjdwsWZBMOtPg476xASSeFRDF4rh6jwhChf OX8kS8dyyB9m9KcyOsg4iKuAIxm9iMnm4RdIoQdhAQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+T9r8Ji4aM40sDJkgiyNq5ZgSIAZRNqKeAjnLfPOLXv8UR4LTUACLIUuvAjMfsN0I98siJRMK/uHnDC71o6Qjc= X-Received: by 10.157.33.79 with SMTP id l15mr6401821otd.124.1508617405193; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:23:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.168.73.194 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:23:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <150854545564.20809.2061958130062517148.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <150854545564.20809.2061958130062517148.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 16:23:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Cc: babel-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11428ea489e2c6055c145cdf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] babel - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 20:23:27 -0000 --001a11428ea489e2c6055c145cdf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Although we request 1 1/2 hours, looks like we got a two hour slot. Anyone who would like to present should contact babel-chairs@ietf.org Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 8:24 PM, "IETF Secretariat" wrote: > Dear Donald Eastlake, > > The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. > Below is the scheduled session information followed by > the original request. > > babel Session 1 (1:30:00) > Friday, Morning Session I 0930-1130 > Room Name: VIP A size: 100 > --------------------------------------------- > > > > Request Information: > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Working Group Name: Babel routing protocol > Area Name: Routing Area > Session Requester: Donald Eastlake > > Number of Sessions: 1 > Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours > Number of Attendees: 45 > Conflicts to Avoid: > First Priority: netconf netmod rtgwg idr lpwan homenet manet mptcp > Second Priority: dnsop 6man v6ops trill i2rs > Third Priority: saag isis ospf dnssd > > > People who must be present: > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd > Russ White > Alia Atlas > > Resources Requested: > > Special Requests: > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > --001a11428ea489e2c6055c145cdf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Although we request 1 1/2 hours, looks like we got a two h= our slot. Anyone who would like to present should contact babel-chairs@ietf.org

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0Donald E. E= astlake 3rd =C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=C2=A0155 Beaver Street, Milfo= rd, MA 01757 USA
=C2=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 8:24 PM, "IETF = Secretariat" <agenda@ietf.org> wrote:
Dear Donald Eastlake,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request.

babel Session 1 (1:30:00)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Friday, Morning Session I 0930-1130
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Room Name: VIP A size: 100
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ---------------------------------------------



Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Babel routing protocol
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Donald Eastlake

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):=C2=A0 1.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 45
Conflicts to Avoid:
=C2=A0First Priority: netconf netmod rtgwg idr lpwan homenet manet mptcp =C2=A0Second Priority: dnsop 6man v6ops trill i2rs
=C2=A0Third Priority: saag isis ospf dnssd


People who must be present:
=C2=A0 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd
=C2=A0 Russ White
=C2=A0 Alia Atlas

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:

---------------------------------------------------------


--001a11428ea489e2c6055c145cdf-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 11:47:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744F31389AC for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:47:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G0RiBL50D1fN for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7093C138103 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9PIlTf6019217 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:29 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9PIlS4i027508; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:28 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520D6F31BA; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id quK-OIlkUAUc; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E5F5F31B9; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e7Qi6-0004dp-Nt; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:26 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:26 +0200 Message-ID: <7ishe7t681.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Cc: , , , In-Reply-To: <201710110733442858570@zte.com.cn> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:47:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F0DC41.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59F0DC40.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F0DC41.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F0DC40.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F0DC41.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F0DC40.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Hi all, about BIER in Babel extension X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:47:36 -0000 Hi Sandy. > But I can't push the code to Juliusz's branch because permission deny. So I > just upload the whole project to my branch. I will hopefully have time to look over the week-end. Please be patient. Gabriel, Matthieu, if you have time to have a look, please do. > Maybe I can push the code to Juliusz's branch later. I'll pull, it's equivalent. This way you still get credit, and the history is kept. Thanks a lot, I'm looking forward to reading your code. -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Oct 25 12:06:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB51B13899A; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 51_dAY0WgTts; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6007913836A; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9PJ6bl9025499 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:37 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9PJ6WcZ032309; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:37 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46589F31B8; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:32 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id uVH_gsRRIzFE; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 354F5F31B7; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e7R0W-0004f4-FG; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:28 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:28 +0200 Message-ID: <7ir2trt5cb.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: HOMENET , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> References: <150877479936.24868.15415230941614909127@ietfa.amsl.com> <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F0E0BD.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59F0E0B8.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F0E0BD.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F0E0B8.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F0E0BD.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F0E0B8.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] [homenet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 19:06:44 -0000 [Added babel@ietf to CC.] Thanks, Ted. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest/ I'm not a security specialist, so just a few comments: 1. You're using a TLV, which means that the TLV parser runs before auth. Is this good practice? What about using the packet trailer ? 2. A number of security mechanisms are being considered for Babel. There's Denis' RFC 7557, which you're aware of. The other technique that we're working on is the use of DTLS. See point 3. 3. The main improvement of RFC6126bis over 6126 is the ability to run Babel over unicast with no multicast except for discovery (and no multicast at all if discovery is done out of band). This makes it possible to use DTLS and/or dynamically keyed IPsec to secure Babel. At least some of the participants of the Babel WG are in favour of such an approach. 4. It is my understanding that there is consensus in the Babel WG that we don't adopt before there is an implementation. That's not to diminish your input, just the statement of an (IMHO happy) state of affairs. Dinnertime for me. Be hearing from you later. -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Oct 25 12:12:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3568A13F44F for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4VW8aIRDCrmV for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0616B13F44C for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id m189so1417966qke.4 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=5Fc8bpNMjIfsNiPq1B/5NWxxaC+WV5/WVHpRyzafdoM=; b=FTJiW+cPzeVuOTGK6y/Mqi4MvxEAF9ErQQhrgecM2WPVBqKC+dy1u4vBqy9F9xO6fD sj8oUxmwcQKNXKJu/mxxZ8bR22I2pSGEbpO3cRq8xevtG1RT2VJa5qBCG4O01B+67DHj aJGRJel1WR8a8esqn9lXzdhEtSEWNBif8bf+0kAqvJeAUHeH/rub2ZQKeHhe82F/YXQo q8qlCmfwI9eXARtAf04gQTZtb1QKcEy2IKr1Yp7zEGxBPb/shiGZEW6bBzwaE1ybf3sN hdticZEs8aLBVWh3qS0l6y5XmxBl1UrXm7LXa8xRJIHtGg++VhOe/99MVJ6DfUQO4N88 /fGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=5Fc8bpNMjIfsNiPq1B/5NWxxaC+WV5/WVHpRyzafdoM=; b=pRS313Zhv14yE6DOVRPU6FW2L98HK4XOi/ryHtBSjydS9tn3SHuGvLfeGB2HqiM8cU ZeuMNd8+Vte/fkDwK5GN3+u1DuvMtcOF4Qi1Usp6S7mQEKAU9BKEnkUHv+ENpGlSjcN+ Wvaagvz4Oo/wNFFeX/VphLQ9yQ5+Lrl8KCWypECoR8FSFT1sFAIBTqj0DHirfZiHo99i hiR7IkH16nGPq4L+YIkqFFNvKLPfoJisJCZWVIbcQYW8jhpwYt99BL9vhRjALqgxBZH5 5DkCFpeWN0AGzA2wQZQwz9htfdNGb1IVu4zo/fsIgWonl1Q/PgUfdKuwlpPSMKv7YP5d f7Tw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaX4JnHKPvBkQ00fw/fuMQ13OSbRuFJEG1OGFajzUjgg17VvIYbQ Qoq2jAZ+lHQwmIJb5jm5gJW+Pg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+SWJEPtXbqjaxVWrc1Bb5x7iMNS4rTqmOvCd0hct3fcirIMfja1EKCBV7OtyC15jTgFO/02Qg== X-Received: by 10.55.121.194 with SMTP id u185mr4760287qkc.128.1508958729154; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o27sm2323884qkh.80.2017.10.25.12.12.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <04245DC4-A547-4A3C-8D79-AE2A945050CB@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_401A5693-A52F-4547-BEDD-3B366714D2C9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:12:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: <7ir2trt5cb.wl-jch@irif.fr> Cc: HOMENET , babel@ietf.org To: Juliusz Chroboczek References: <150877479936.24868.15415230941614909127@ietfa.amsl.com> <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> <7ir2trt5cb.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] [homenet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 19:12:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_401A5693-A52F-4547-BEDD-3B366714D2C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:06 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > 1. You're using a TLV, which means that the TLV parser runs before = auth. > Is this good practice? What about using the packet trailer ? If you aren't using a shotgun parser, it shouldn't matter. > 2. A number of security mechanisms are being considered for Babel. > There's Denis' RFC 7557, which you're aware of. The other technique = that > we're working on is the use of DTLS. See point 3. >=20 > 3. The main improvement of RFC6126bis over 6126 is the ability to run = Babel > over unicast with no multicast except for discovery (and no multicast = at > all if discovery is done out of band). This makes it possible to use = DTLS > and/or dynamically keyed IPsec to secure Babel. At least some of the > participants of the Babel WG are in favour of such an approach. Yup. DTLS is just convenient=E2=80=94it means that it's not necessary = to re-invent the wheel. > 4. It is my understanding that there is consensus in the Babel WG that = we > don't adopt before there is an implementation. That's not to diminish > your input, just the statement of an (IMHO happy) state of affairs. That makes perfect sense to me. I don't think the DTLS implementation = would be that hard=E2=80=94is there any chance that anyone would be = interested in working on this during the hackathon in Singapore? I say = "anyone" because I don't want to put you on the spot. --Apple-Mail=_401A5693-A52F-4547-BEDD-3B366714D2C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:06 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> = wrote:
1.  You're = using a TLV, which means that the TLV parser runs before auth.
Is this good practice?  What about using = the packet trailer ?

If you aren't = using a shotgun parser, it shouldn't matter.

2. A number of = security mechanisms are being considered for Babel.
There's Denis' RFC 7557, which you're aware of. =  The other technique that
we're working on is = the use of DTLS.  See point 3.

3. The main improvement of RFC6126bis over 6126 = is the ability to run Babel
over unicast with = no multicast except for discovery (and no multicast at
all if discovery is done out of band). =  This makes it possible to use DTLS
and/or dynamically = keyed IPsec to secure Babel.  At least some of the
participants of the Babel WG are in favour of = such an approach.

Yup.   DTLS = is just convenient=E2=80=94it means that it's not necessary to re-invent = the wheel.

4. It is my understanding that there is = consensus in the Babel WG that we
don't adopt before = there is an implementation.  That's not to diminish
your input, just the statement of an (IMHO = happy) state of affairs.

That makes perfect sense to me.   I = don't think the DTLS implementation would be that hard=E2=80=94is there = any chance that anyone would be interested in working on this during the = hackathon in Singapore?   I say "anyone" because I don't want to = put you on the spot.

= --Apple-Mail=_401A5693-A52F-4547-BEDD-3B366714D2C9-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 15:04:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374B713F47A; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:04:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DbTcxybmBLAM; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6648B13F487; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9PM4LJI003593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:21 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9PM4G5v003685; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:20 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4034BEB34E; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id NDum1rnqmH8d; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 064F7F31B8; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:07 +0200 Message-ID: <87inf251go.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: HOMENET , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <04245DC4-A547-4A3C-8D79-AE2A945050CB@fugue.com> References: <150877479936.24868.15415230941614909127@ietfa.amsl.com> <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> <7ir2trt5cb.wl-jch@irif.fr> <04245DC4-A547-4A3C-8D79-AE2A945050CB@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F10A65.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 22:04:29 -0000 > That makes perfect sense to me. I don't think the DTLS implementation would be > that hard—is there any chance that anyone would be interested in working on > this during the hackathon in Singapore? A student of mine (Antonin, whom you might remember from Berlin) has been working on that. Unfortunately, it turned out a little bit more difficult than expected, and so he ran out of summer. He'll come back to it, I believe, but certainly not before the January exam session is over. -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Oct 25 18:27:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4E013F4FA for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:27:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ExmjlXaiFxUO for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9350913F4F6 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id C80A82B5546778C93E77; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:27:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp02.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.201]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with SMTP id v9Q1R6SU010472; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:27:06 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp03[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid203; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:27:06 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:27:06 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afb59f139eaffffffffad8-a4449 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <201710260927067058624@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <7ishe7t681.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: 7ishe7t681.wl-jch@irif.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , , , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn v9Q1R6SU010472 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] =?utf-8?q?Hi_all=2C_about_BIER_in_Babel_extension?= X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:27:43 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSnVsaXVzeiwKCk9LLiBUaGFuayB5b3UgdmVyeSBtdWNoIQoKQmVzdCBSZWdhcmRzLApTYW5k eQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS3ljp/lp4vpgq7ku7YtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0K5Y+R5Lu2 5Lq677yaIDxqY2hAaXJpZi5mcj47CuaUtuS7tuS6uu+8muW8oOW+gTAwMDA3OTQwOwrmioTpgIHk urrvvJogPGtlcm5laXNAZ29vZ2xlLmNvbT47IDxiYWJlbEBpZXRmLm9yZz47IDxib3V0aWVyQGly aWYuZnI+OyA8enpoYW5nX2lldGZAaG90bWFpbC5jb20+Owrml6Ug5pyfIO+8mjIwMTflubQxMOac iDI25pelIDAyOjQ3CuS4uyDpopgg77yaUmU6IFtiYWJlbF0gSGkgYWxsLCBhYm91dCBCSUVSIGlu IEJhYmVsIGV4dGVuc2lvbgpIaSBTYW5keS4KCj4gQnV0IEkgY2FuJ3QgcHVzaCB0aGUgY29kZSB0 byBKdWxpdXN6J3MgYnJhbmNoIGJlY2F1c2UgcGVybWlzc2lvbiBkZW55LiBTbyBJCj4ganVzdCB1 cGxvYWQgdGhlIHdob2xlIHByb2plY3QgdG8gbXkgYnJhbmNoLgoKSSB3aWxsIGhvcGVmdWxseSBo YXZlIHRpbWUgdG8gbG9vayBvdmVyIHRoZSB3ZWVrLWVuZC4gIFBsZWFzZSBiZSBwYXRpZW50LgoK R2FicmllbCwgTWF0dGhpZXUsIGlmIHlvdSBoYXZlIHRpbWUgdG8gaGF2ZSBhIGxvb2ssIHBsZWFz ZSBkby4KCj4gTWF5YmUgSSBjYW4gcHVzaCB0aGUgY29kZSB0byBKdWxpdXN6J3MgYnJhbmNoIGxh dGVyLgoKSSdsbCBwdWxsLCBpdCdzIGVxdWl2YWxlbnQuICBUaGlzIHdheSB5b3Ugc3RpbGwgZ2V0 IGNyZWRpdCwgYW5kIHRoZQpoaXN0b3J5IGlzIGtlcHQuCgpUaGFua3MgYSBsb3QsIEknbSBsb29r aW5nIGZvcndhcmQgdG8gcmVhZGluZyB5b3VyIGNvZGUuCgotLSBKdWxpdXN6 --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_002_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 20:13:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F86138FA0 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:13:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RrHBMo3O7ObZ for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6925A139976 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id r196so5189846wmf.2 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:13:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=QEiNfAZcq+J1VAw7ERvmzMXsXFNblt3Np04SKb4r4Rw=; b=afDwBegBgwmD9aEBOvXh/LTQaE/682O4s0WBHyxiG25EW6b1sHlT/WE1IXMJ3q3xHG KqrP5Th4qE19O8OAcFJwCwNQNz/RlGopI0IJqan6v40EBu1oSHx6Tejl2sNHZvQ88KlL 10feZJIynyPCHFpy43P7yDYGx4zkk2+iAZVo7r6D1MkGFQycQahkmbILxaOxBX7p6oGB BoCThKVPmCmD/RU7DFT1q/tZAHVlHIlZZFgcPB2MjNlaghbKwlLX67b0g5kwCfkMREl8 Io4SaW9KT0QtFnoSM2EenIjYXV6AFpK/tdLFGU/t+pn6BT6pBV9g4sppDlOtyhU2xyk8 P7Fw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=QEiNfAZcq+J1VAw7ERvmzMXsXFNblt3Np04SKb4r4Rw=; b=ZG5SNMBtLGB6wxClNUztrOl1fNUoZPG0/LMyLNr9N8sKgvpF//oZiFdx1OmiOmjBUv eCWM/zyKrlrwY9XWsbo4kKJUFOObIdqsjnQPXDcu4TsLcvUhkOp2WH3xZ0dk+TJt1gRS Em9Iqukji4oJa2nkHNpcL/0h7bFQMS7UaJr3uX6fNL0mXOloi1355fjE8rWjww38TbTG MmeC02bqMGrrFNbLcn2uDA1fAnhfxAtWQy9eJDxL4uFsDU/9wnv1Imxsu1LZXmK62Kxt 1TAhqStIQJ+2mzktx9WBRYTiYSTPrVhDesfFl0yq+Kg3zB2F2Xg54eVFHEoPy8EP3J4i 5gig== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUcxvOPma8HyRm3G2dKEQWjh3EDF6dYX7oJq7UOu3uzpOSFoxhp jm42DLV1ZQgeRcRQx89zlyBBHnCOn5FyN5mWBI131g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+S9C3o0Xogrz9XGVtw/Eyg/HnNQWg/cT6i4bqFL1tZL1QYXNb2hlgotecLqBjwDpu1rPZwYp1O1RJF1ekvKJHI= X-Received: by 10.80.147.16 with SMTP id m16mr26009250eda.121.1508987592914; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:13:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.164.220 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:12:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Przygienda Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:12:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1a5070723f64055c6a8dab" Archived-At: Subject: [babel] new draft https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-00.txt X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 03:13:22 -0000 --94eb2c1a5070723f64055c6a8dab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Just published BIERin6 native, this is specifically targeted @ routers/host that don't do BIER except in slow path (i.e. no MPLS and no special ether type possible). Off the shelf hardware will work and idea is of course to target HomeNet multicast with Babel that way ... Comments welcome thanks --- tony --94eb2c1a5070723f64055c6a8dab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just published BIERin6 native, this is specifically target= ed @ routers/host that don't do BIER except in slow path (i.e. no MPLS = and no special ether type possible). Off the shelf hardware will work and i= dea is of course to target HomeNet multicast with Babel that way ...=C2=A0<= div>
Comments welcome=C2=A0

thanks= =C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0
--94eb2c1a5070723f64055c6a8dab-- From nobody Sat Oct 28 18:29:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D35713A415 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 18:29:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zIEDibFurZoH for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 18:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C546A13F492 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 18:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9T1Sw6Q005984; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 02:28:58 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4913EB225; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 02:28:58 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id WJQG7IGAmi_C; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 02:28:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F2C37EB21E; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 02:28:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 02:28:56 +0100 Message-ID: <8760aylp2f.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: David Schinazi Cc: babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <87h8x0u08e.wl-jch@irif.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Sun, 29 Oct 2017 02:28:58 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F52EDA.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F52EDA.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F52EDA.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] Updated 6126bis X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 01:29:06 -0000 > A few comments: David, I think I've taken all of your comments into account with the exception of the following one: > - While I agree that my appendix about unicast hellos needed work, > I think we shouldn't remove all guidance entirely, there's value in > discussing rationale and pros/cons. Since we don't have any deployment experience with Unicast Hellos, there's little we can say at this stage. For now, all we know is that Multicast Hellos work, and Unicast Hellos are an optional feature that will probably turn out to be useful. -- Juliusz From nobody Sun Oct 29 09:12:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietf.org Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3E413F58A; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 09:12:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: babel@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150929355512.11317.16461307757552876883@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 09:12:35 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [babel] I-D Action: draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 16:12:35 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Babel routing protocol WG of the IETF. Title : The Babel Routing Protocol Authors : Juliusz Chroboczek David Schinazi Filename : draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt Pages : 59 Date : 2017-10-29 Abstract: Babel is a loop-avoiding distance-vector routing protocol that is robust and efficient both in ordinary wired networks and in wireless mesh networks. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Oct 29 09:14:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FFB13F57D for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 09:14:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Rw_-f64mvdV for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 09:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D08F13F57B for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 09:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9TGEmPQ009415 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:14:48 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCA2EB21E for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:14:48 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id cdbc_iLttS00 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:14:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3659EEB225 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:14:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:14:47 +0100 Message-ID: <874lqi2ao8.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <150929355512.11317.16461307757552876883@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <150929355512.11317.16461307757552876883@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:14:48 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F5FE78.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F5FE78.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F5FE78.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] I-D Action: draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 16:14:51 -0000 > Filename : draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt This version is believed to be absolutely perfect in every conceivable way. I hereby request Last Call. -- Juliusz From nobody Sun Oct 29 17:44:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B096713F652 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:44:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GPmztyce8iJL for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x233.google.com (mail-oi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A7F513F408 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x233.google.com with SMTP id c202so18997963oih.9 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:44:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DgEXj3gQNrVfzgYyvoMIM3FbTZNy0ig0rrP3oVpGBkA=; b=I1o2uJhxAG47CGRS69ipqcly7GSIiYjVO0ZOjiskAcjNFkEi4auft8jcqgf7QkS2oU bKpT2W/IyTlCHsgILmKB5YrO7lNrC5sQYRFLaj9ceHSmPK7bGiCcfXZb5iJ2dhZOUEoJ kMKoJZC3dV9O3dj/f3wjsuAyqe/Ob+Rb843U3qkPJkVK/mt30loAqiqAHEL0mY+cwycG asxZetZDem+oFhCyvGBqQRNPM2YIuek9KKpvETs+N/rwy/fmTA0LcaF1EAyZS7kSrwIQ 9VV9Yh7NSKcP4lVQEf65DhLZDWp1GCp89WXKX68EJ5xeqX1YZ9PgaHyDwbMWoI+lsU7O mJpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DgEXj3gQNrVfzgYyvoMIM3FbTZNy0ig0rrP3oVpGBkA=; b=qV4WsEF/TNHPlhl4jlUSMXB2oSW5i7HGek+HV9vf26BP4BJ1MVzf+TXT3YtY1D5Zdn EtXEIyc1O8JHxBhSsHNmJxhxLMXJGhODosN3McwP3VBgqNIcGEdxEs8zK2hf0dzpLDJe uPIwklz56srqIVwxBib1Tmo2MBPByf/LOsRwIf0M9a9bXx9cU09FNtEYIanf0h3tI6jF 2jq4YyhX2nF2lmxdvtH33ahdC2KlU0hJesSrNwlmXGLhMjyFsdaVI7rY+2jMiaTxwo/Z odhiKXrsTKD4515KG1G3ceypbYySWw/OhKIKvyasPWAnqYL6u4gn4h5/UGR/YAmO/RUt eHSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWk58aXlC3nloKyVuc80WxhUAaMOuzjYsQKTNkNImTC+fGF3+fD Zy2ZCAJlbRpwh08no7GveK+z2cWuVXO3k0XVPq2Id9Yd X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Q+76VVfKa+f3+CISOPkcppvP+V2Llg95Mxtln6j5/yvlHGi4HuSCkG54ruK8tvCSizO5Dxl0WDqd5mCBA6XJ0= X-Received: by 10.157.82.65 with SMTP id q1mr4069077otg.33.1509324241495; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:44:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.168.73.194 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:43:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <874lqi2ao8.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <150929355512.11317.16461307757552876883@ietfa.amsl.com> <874lqi2ao8.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:43:46 -0400 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] I-D Action: draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 00:44:04 -0000 On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> Filename : draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt > > This version is believed to be absolutely perfect in every conceivable way. > > I hereby request Last Call. OK. Working Group Last Call usually runs two weeks but people may be a bit busier during and for the two weeks before the IETF meeting. On the other hand, this draft is pretty mature. I have reviewed the changes between -03 and -04 and they do not seem that large. So, I will start an approximately 3 week WG LC running through the BABEL WG meeting in Singapore. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com > -- Juliusz From nobody Sun Oct 29 17:51:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C4B1394F5 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:51:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eNN7z76pPTqq for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x232.google.com (mail-oi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC3E013FCE7 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x232.google.com with SMTP id v9so19037721oif.13 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:51:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8iJx7FHuXz5SGZUiqjtxMe3i2eoHlLxrPbrhMSNlOfo=; b=VvNrG/KB3xgYoAP2/3BKCJbNsy83a5rxZrFzhJ2jpxs0Ueqwb7SCx6v/Pv68agHlP7 zV2wg9iAilaRWLm5NFOzdqcpl9ohnS8Vak6krJi6vCuz0RSyxG2Rk3Z4iYPTIPDnpP0m cYfHI5QlLH0Myq0Gp7m5cpTsqByqWtZE58dsldG+LxvCQIg03t0tB9LmW7qOP9CB3mf2 KCTECDxPC52UIJzVJa/aG4Meg1yQYbUZhg0lYJpDfOtzmuHtYW7Hi/1BVDYgpMjLjYJy LCgYYyLyZNWCgG42X6AXFBOg73ufyGXrB9m7u2rY5upe1L2/K4yOL1AaObm1st1lVL5D B4Pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8iJx7FHuXz5SGZUiqjtxMe3i2eoHlLxrPbrhMSNlOfo=; b=CD5pp4ivRx8KkqvalqTeJ8IfkY2L9JQr/K/+wBaX/S+cvo9Jz0apva6Yqj03GHF8eD HP4LAH6m49cFTR2hzegeJazeXrf84HfPoJ6vYU/C06c2y7KwHahdXzr0HPFLXSCAlOK5 UKdjOy+g8utTwE+M0315o1560GtgLjav2UB1E8Y7z2LNW9goP4G3NE7AyCbm6po1Spfr LU2/Bpmqp4xgYOxCNpBkchOwjSUoqyoDjfr8gWb/2IbkrbOd2U8pLVotLFML1ozaHOtX cy49yYGMJgfhPhPnp+r8OmhWd30hNyyexe09IMYHMNAZADG0na97hggh7e5OCDFXfZ7y RgHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUnp2QRQzORFMADhTCbTxWcLWilPcBy5KIe6QsDzdOi9agotZce 1dtXbqoP1rlUpNM1Rcvyxx/78Ar2/tV9/oI2DN7+4lh1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+RcqFa+KtNP3+8BlqAychNm2Ktv3n7oU3xLNckklWxhldAPbAh4MKv4Q5N9lMLP+dsxBIFU8+TiGUzz/Zkmr5Y= X-Received: by 10.202.84.10 with SMTP id i10mr3759616oib.152.1509324712167; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:51:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.168.73.194 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:51:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Eastlake Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 20:51:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: Babel at IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 00:51:54 -0000 This message starts a WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04 running until the BABEL WG meeting at the upcoming Singapore IETF meeting. Please post to this mailing list indicating whether you think this draft is an appropriate revision of RFC 6126 suitable for publication as an IETF Proposed Standard. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com From nobody Mon Oct 30 08:03:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC3E13FA25 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:03:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ovsienko.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gneli9x4hvCD for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com (sender-of-o51.zoho.com [135.84.80.216]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5266913FA15 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:03:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1509375814; s=zohomail; d=ovsienko.info; i=denis@ovsienko.info; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; l=1635; bh=aS17l1aeiodtal3QTBJtTssY+rUAudnCWOpj425UQbg=; b=iEBFyLDkAjDa6qwIFKMOBzBryMyCJe9vk62Lm59ko3bfM6fzKExtRGwdc/SAOhve MmjxA4DOXJM30ThvhK/nuBjIR4NOjb41SFNmSWJQ8Sidk8w5CtkI3NYzimjR7X8P0Fg jf3wIsiqs+u+OgGOjSvwBYt6sqUyskRjaKIbqNOs= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1509375814800440.6404834714914; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:03:34 +0000 From: Denis Ovsienko To: "Babel at IETF" Message-ID: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:03:55 -0000 ---- On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 00:51:36 +0000 Donald Eastlake wrote ---- >This message starts a WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04 >running until the BABEL WG meeting at the upcoming Singapore IETF >meeting. > >Please post to this mailing list indicating whether you think this >draft is an appropriate revision of RFC 6126 suitable for publication >as an IETF Proposed Standard. Hello all. As far as I understand, this specification still suffers a technical problem that makes it not ready for Standards Track. Specifically, this is the bi-directional reachability problem, which I had described a few times during 2016. One of those times was IETF 97 Babel WG meeting, which mostly consisted of the slides explaining how the attack works and why it was possible. Excuse me if the delivery style was poor, that's only as good as I could do 3 o'clock in the morning. However, all the technical points are there, there are the slides and there was a detailed follow-up on the WG mailing list afterwards. Unfortunately, the conversation turned out to be one-way so I have to bring it up now because the problem has not fixed itself since then. It would not be relevant for the base protocol document if Babel security was out of scope (like the Security Considerations section currently puts it). However, our working group charter clearly says: "Address security needs for BABEL". And the security mechanism, whatever it is, is likely to depend on the base protocol's ability to detect true 2-way reachability. So there is still important work to be done here before declaring success. -- Denis Ovsienko From nobody Mon Oct 30 16:44:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50F713B117 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:44:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fdduE6DWj36J for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FFD6138C11 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9UNi1WY010703; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:44:01 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05BA2EB215; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:44:02 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id DIABgyArreVy; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:44:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24BD8EB217; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:44:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:44:00 +0100 Message-ID: <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Denis Ovsienko Cc: "Babel at IETF" In-Reply-To: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:44:02 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F7B941.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F7B941.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F7B941.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 23:44:06 -0000 Dear Denis, > Specifically, this is the bi-directional reachability problem This was discussed on the mailing list in December 2016 in a thread called « [PATCH 2/4] address IETF-97 slides section I point 2 ». > Unfortunately, the conversation turned out to be one-way That's not fair, Denis. It wasn't discussed at the meeting (since you weren't present in the flesh), but it was discussed in detail on the mailing list. If I understand it correctly, the "issue" is that the draft deliberately puts very few constraints on a neighbourship association (Section 3.4). A node can create an association whenever it suits it, and may likewise destroy it at any time. This, apparently, makes RFC 7298 vulnerable to the attack that you described at IETF-97. There was a lengthy discussion on the mailing list in December 2016, and the consensus that emerged was the following: - Section 3.4 needed to be rewritten (this has been done); - all three active implementers of Babel (Toke, David and myself) prefer the time of neighbourship creation to remain an implementation detail and not become normative; - the issue you outlined is not an issue with RFC6126(bis), it's an issue in RFC 7298, and should therefore be fixed in that document. Unless something has happened in the meantime, this is still the consensus of the Babel working group. Regards, -- Juliusz From nobody Mon Oct 30 17:28:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CAA13F5DC for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uTWNz_OGkNow for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in6.apple.com (mail-out6.apple.com [17.151.62.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 789E313F562 for ; 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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e15-7125b9c0000051f9-37-59f7c3ac9af7 Received: from koseret.apple.com (koseret.apple.com [17.151.62.39]) by relay2.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id C3.1C.21963.CA3C7F95; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:28:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Received: from [17.234.113.5] (unknown [17.234.113.5]) by koseret.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.3.20170825 64bit (built Aug 25 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OYN009F1VZFKZ80@koseret.apple.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi In-reply-to: <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:28:26 -0700 Cc: Babel at IETF , Juliusz Chroboczek Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <971739C2-706A-4AE6-A0D1-3E29C92B8695@apple.com> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Denis Ovsienko X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.1.6) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FDorLvm8PdIg5+PRS22LOpmsZhz6zuL xfzWZWwOzB5Llvxk8li85S2jx4qTG9kCmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4MhbveMhY8Fq4Ys/KRcwN jC/4uxg5OSQETCReLznF0sXIxSEksJpJYsr8zawwiWdrzrKA2EICWxgl9m8OAbF5BQQlfky+ BxTn4GAWUJeYMiUXoreZSaL37VuwemEBaYmuC3dZIexIidkT2thA6tkEtCQOrDECCXMKaEj8 +HQcrIRFQFViw7WTbCA2s4CLRN+7X0wQtrbEk3cXWCHW2kh8n9gKdc56RoltHx1AbBGgOV+2 zGOGOFlR4sjMOcwg90gITGCTWD1/GssERuFZSM6ehXD2LCQrFjAyr2IUyk3MzNHNzDPTSywo yEnVS87P3cQICvXpdqI7GM+ssjrEKMDBqMTD6xD/PVKINbGsuDL3EKM0B4uSOG/7GqCQQHpi SWp2ampBalF8UWlOavEhRiYOTqkGxgfLTn4LuF2xTGP/n4ScbfxOB+X/LOLvm6/6q1zp2Neb k7bs/Sv7Ssq2Koj7zwstBbueAxdTBBT3yb2atCZ12tvMuo+Pp4gky5XqcFt/n5x+ve99FscR 7SPrHs7J49f0mfpGLi0mZMrUIgm9yVG8qvdq5Gr/Ha/m/jNThsfkjN79w82tS456xSmxFGck GmoxFxUnAgDlVdEIVgIAAA== X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OXXfN4e+RBmsOCVpsWdTNYjHn1ncW i/mty9gcmD2WLPnJ5LF4y1tGjxUnN7IFMEdx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZSze8ZCx4LVwxZ6Vi5gb GF/wdzFyckgImEg8W3OWBcQWEtjCKLF/cwiIzSsgKPFj8j2gOAcHs4C6xJQpuV2MXEAlzUwS vW/fgtULC0hLdF24ywphR0rMntDGBlLPJqAlcWCNEUiYU0BD4sen42AlLAKqEhuunWQDsZkF XCT63v1igrC1JZ68u8AKsdZG4vvEVqhz1jNKbPvoAGKLAM35smUeM8TJihJHZs5hnsAoMAvJ pbMQLp2FZOoCRuZVjAJFqTmJlUZ6iQUFOal6yfm5mxhBodlQ6LyD8dgyq0OMAhyMSjy8MxK/ RwqxJpYVV+YeYpTgYFYS4f0yCSjEm5JYWZValB9fVJqTWnyIUZqDRUmcd9OMz5FCAumJJanZ qakFqUUwWSYOTqkGxlX7gpPEPvzKZN1+h+nmnfBAj1sJd+oni31LM/F40lLkUBTALO2b6CDB cu9FnuKqJtvdS/d+u+YuYrRF/87yo48Sl3isenyyY0LH9jr5OFvh/lMPpk1QumH2u9n/Dsth aZZPld+P1O3e216verG4//Xd7f+vTC6OenEty3XTT37/G4xKNyaFBiuxFGckGmoxFxUnAgCo 07ppSQIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:28:30 -0000 Hi Denis, I agree with Juliusz on this topic. I think the right solution to this security issue is an RFC 7298 bis document that adds more constraints on neighbor acquisition, in the context of giving the HMAC the right properties. As it stands, the neighbor acquisition described in RFC 6126 bis provides the properties required to make Babel work, and should not be encumbered by extra requirements needed to make the HMAC extension work. I agree the working group should give guidance on securing Babel, however that does not need to hold back this document, as we have not reached consensus on how to achieve security. Proposed solutions include HMAC, DTLS and IPsec; and the last two do not require the state machine you proposed. Thanks, David > On Oct 30, 2017, at 16:44, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >=20 > Dear Denis, >=20 >> Specifically, this is the bi-directional reachability problem >=20 > This was discussed on the mailing list in December 2016 in a thread = called > =C2=AB [PATCH 2/4] address IETF-97 slides section I point 2 =C2=BB. >=20 >> Unfortunately, the conversation turned out to be one-way >=20 > That's not fair, Denis. It wasn't discussed at the meeting (since you > weren't present in the flesh), but it was discussed in detail on the > mailing list. >=20 > If I understand it correctly, the "issue" is that the draft = deliberately > puts very few constraints on a neighbourship association (Section = 3.4). > A node can create an association whenever it suits it, and may = likewise > destroy it at any time. This, apparently, makes RFC 7298 vulnerable = to > the attack that you described at IETF-97. >=20 > There was a lengthy discussion on the mailing list in December 2016, = and > the consensus that emerged was the following: >=20 > - Section 3.4 needed to be rewritten (this has been done); > - all three active implementers of Babel (Toke, David and myself) > prefer the time of neighbourship creation to remain an = implementation > detail and not become normative; > - the issue you outlined is not an issue with RFC6126(bis), it's an > issue in RFC 7298, and should therefore be fixed in that document. >=20 > Unless something has happened in the meantime, this is still the = consensus > of the Babel working group. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > -- Juliusz >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel From nobody Mon Oct 30 18:05:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7404C13F5A1 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:05:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ddKR3AZMCsuT for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A758C13F631 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9V15cCc025534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:05:38 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9V15ccJ004925; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:05:38 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F89BEB217; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:05:38 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id PBvACV6fNRun; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:05:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3B19BEB216; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:05:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:05:37 +0100 Message-ID: <87wp3c9lem.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: David Schinazi Cc: Denis Ovsienko , Babel at IETF In-Reply-To: <971739C2-706A-4AE6-A0D1-3E29C92B8695@apple.com> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <971739C2-706A-4AE6-A0D1-3E29C92B8695@apple.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:05:38 +0100 (CET) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Tue, 31 Oct 2017 02:05:38 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F7CC62.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59F7CC62.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F7CC62.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F7CC62.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F7CC62.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F7CC62.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 01:05:45 -0000 > I think the right solution to this security issue is an RFC 7298 bis > document that adds more constraints on neighbor acquisition, Alternatively, 7298bis could decouple neighbour acquisition from security association. There's no reason why the two lifetimes should be closely coupled. -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Oct 31 04:33:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8DA13F439 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 04:33:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TqqdEQheDS9j for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 04:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.toke.dk (mail.toke.dk [52.28.52.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26A2E13AB2B for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 04:33:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Toke =?utf-8?Q?H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=20161023; t=1509449623; bh=IcxHmuSdUEF7K4xksvGExqetYex2WMH0DzW8lmZmy54=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Vgm4Tj6Kgym7uExn7nPMkiDuzh6PBbIdIIlMzvUAnpB9Lyj8ECQ3UWjibBPqu64Jn zuGuzu4W7xsdl9uffcRneS4T1wE+FApeL5SDUh+AeN568NhvX+rnZ9XySf56umFIk5 KEOHXmGe/z8/Zb0sroNBuBplRfTFpZKevi29Bzt9b8THuAPPjRoUZIDdo2XmGVEhxl OitKInwFSavhgXROThJmQHvYYBGCfeRYyfy1rjpJO90O9gjyXaKm5iwEMIMAB8BuYG 1ICyXZiVSn4vdLznNc6oaBUoxqZ0lKqwIvYqhHO8JS6MsbV8Y/U2DmHrCYrFOMKoL/ j0oUmB0CqthpQ== To: David Schinazi , Denis Ovsienko Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , Babel at IETF In-Reply-To: <971739C2-706A-4AE6-A0D1-3E29C92B8695@apple.com> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <971739C2-706A-4AE6-A0D1-3E29C92B8695@apple.com> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 12:33:40 +0100 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <878tfrmu0b.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 11:33:53 -0000 David Schinazi writes: > As it stands, the neighbor acquisition described in RFC 6126 bis > provides the properties required to make Babel work, and should > not be encumbered by extra requirements needed to make the > HMAC extension work. > > I agree the working group should give guidance on securing Babel, > however that does not need to hold back this document, as we > have not reached consensus on how to achieve security. > Proposed solutions include HMAC, DTLS and IPsec; and the last > two do not require the state machine you proposed. +1 -Toke From nobody Tue Oct 31 05:54:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0C113F588 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:54:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ovsienko.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gAOzjg24-sPc for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com (sender-of-o51.zoho.com [135.84.80.216]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6002713F4FC for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:54:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1509454484; s=zohomail; d=ovsienko.info; i=denis@ovsienko.info; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; l=3054; bh=MJnSUDBtSSKmtHKW/2l0wHYrhHVmRuoLJU5JAHelLsg=; b=K/2nKDbaO3Px5+PrqsZeZknVxekJknq0p9uNPqH2JaBnpXh+/oxHUdQfxqow3sw1 Q7H0vfj/fH4S19dKSdsYbMgnDrrXn6z/mYNBBBN38qRJwWsM4dOUfPNQiy7P8LqNgdu q9T9bgPAG+bcB/Wz0w8oB0QnIbSfLqC/gTWpnDBA= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1509454484188351.931584533262; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 05:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 12:54:44 +0000 From: Denis Ovsienko To: "Babel at IETF" Message-ID: <15f727f92d8.11e6c3dbd43397.2376860294132856941@ovsienko.info> In-Reply-To: <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 12:54:55 -0000 ---- On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 23:44:00 +0000 Juliusz Chroboczek wrote ---- >Dear Denis, > >> Specifically, this is the bi-directional reachability problem > >This was discussed on the mailing list in December 2016 in a thread called >« [PATCH 2/4] address IETF-97 slides section I point 2 ». > >> Unfortunately, the conversation turned out to be one-way > >That's not fair, Denis. It wasn't discussed at the meeting (since you >weren't present in the flesh), but it was discussed in detail on the >mailing list. > >If I understand it correctly, the "issue" is that the draft deliberately >puts very few constraints on a neighbourship association (Section 3.4). >A node can create an association whenever it suits it, and may likewise >destroy it at any time. This, apparently, makes RFC 7298 vulnerable to >the attack that you described at IETF-97. > >There was a lengthy discussion on the mailing list in December 2016, and >the consensus that emerged was the following: > > - Section 3.4 needed to be rewritten (this has been done); > - all three active implementers of Babel (Toke, David and myself) > prefer the time of neighbourship creation to remain an implementation > detail and not become normative; > - the issue you outlined is not an issue with RFC6126(bis), it's an > issue in RFC 7298, and should therefore be fixed in that document. > >Unless something has happened in the meantime, this is still the consensus >of the Babel working group. Hello all. I am sorry to say there was _no_ consensus on this specific matter in 2016 and there is still _no_ consensus on this matter now, as nothing happened in this regard since the problem was stated (looks like we concur on this little specific point in a way). "Not fair." -- I could respond to that statement, but for the sake of getting the work done let's try to focus on the quality of deliverables -- the only thing that actually matters in this whole story. The problem, as it was already explained before, is the bi-directional reachability -- a concept used in many other protocols. When the base Babel protocol spec uses a well-known term to mean a non-standard behaviour, it misleads the implementers. This is the property of the document and it is not a good property. Authors of derivative works may misunderstand the meaning and I myself is an example of this (and I am a valid case, I can re-introduce myself if really necessary). I was OK to admit the facts as well as to work to understand why it happened. As much as I could tell after examining both documents, some blame belongs to RFC 7298 and some blame belongs to RFC 6126. Just stating on the mailing list that Babel does not care, that RFC 6126-bis is perfect and any blame belongs elsewhere cannot improve RFC 6126-bis as the output document of the working group. The normative reference needs to be put right carefully to avoid more mistakes downstream at a later time. Without this the specification would not be fit for Standards Track. -- Denis Ovsienko From nobody Tue Oct 31 06:14:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB4413943F for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 06:14:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n8Dy9G0DB8bk for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 06:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.toke.dk (mail.toke.dk [52.28.52.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C59713AB34 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 06:14:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Toke =?utf-8?Q?H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=20161023; t=1509455637; bh=pr5yY5n7y2I8W31GKFiCAkLX+hEbVHThJG6YUYhM850=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=gI11//pt3yOqg1HTrC3KbZZz+17irpL7f8kMK/ve7an40c1SNXoWHoWzmrXgjRo0Z aROzVEtHLkcKBew7ynhgDmDh0L2XuwcQtaBUtGiHTuxyfQA1mUgLfHl0yBmaayJFFO 1Ejaop5LbRcuFsBcN2TGxf9rE3VsZb2K2VOVB0MKyk3Py+RA+vmyfrPDLK/+2u1bgN Zxyjhxg3ly8v3NzwS9wEbI4UdXHY7IQK5Ed8HKFHiVAfyxKhyvafAd6FBSSzVAJ8Vg v3A/vFgJG4hHYW5zo6/ojuFDMlCy7eiUIZ2CcyHcaVuF+YVXhxJHHIL89A3Kfl0wxd QRaXL1bCfS5Nw== To: Denis Ovsienko , Babel at IETF In-Reply-To: <15f727f92d8.11e6c3dbd43397.2376860294132856941@ovsienko.info> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <15f727f92d8.11e6c3dbd43397.2376860294132856941@ovsienko.info> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:13:55 +0100 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <87zi87lass.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 13:14:02 -0000 > The problem, as it was already explained before, is the bi-directional > reachability -- a concept used in many other protocols. When the base > Babel protocol spec uses a well-known term to mean a non-standard > behaviour, it misleads the implementers. I'm terribly sorry if I'm being obtuse here, but from this comment it seems to me that your objection is specifically to the use of the term 'bidirectional reachability', because you read that to imply something stronger than what Babel does? If so, what term would you suggest to use instead? Or would it suffice to explicitly spell out that this is a weaker property than in some other places (which?)? -Toke From nobody Tue Oct 31 09:46:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7CB13F9AA for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:46:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ovsienko.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YUbRAD9Z67zF for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com (sender-of-o51.zoho.com [135.84.80.216]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A21913F997 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:46:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1509468402; s=zohomail; d=ovsienko.info; i=denis@ovsienko.info; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; l=2888; bh=H+ogs+YoPlM70Nv+RxGQvm0he5Mt4+rIlbioUr0wTSU=; b=Z6praYL9owIX4PA05344lQyOZkA2ZgcyC3cd9gGBNll3AVH0Xbfj2Vrmqam3mhyM WrGvZqiXK1ymNmg/wjeD/Jcmv2hE/e89yX+ZXbGuDakA8Mhxba88e26AK08r5FsJOf2 mWNyMidJv/yoxJeqRAd6RfmH1i2NGA5k3CiFftVw= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1509468402719755.6411548267394; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:46:42 +0000 From: Denis Ovsienko To: "Babel at IETF" Message-ID: <15f7353f41b.ffa1d41453323.6020794963079882883@ovsienko.info> In-Reply-To: <87zi87lass.fsf@toke.dk> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <15f727f92d8.11e6c3dbd43397.2376860294132856941@ovsienko.info> <87zi87lass.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:46:49 -0000 ---- On Tue, 31 Oct 2017 13:13:55 +0000 Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen wrote ----=20 > > The problem, as it was already explained before, is the bi-directional= =20 > > reachability -- a concept used in many other protocols. When the base= =20 > > Babel protocol spec uses a well-known term to mean a non-standard=20 > > behaviour, it misleads the implementers.=20 > =20 > I'm terribly sorry if I'm being obtuse here, but from this comment it=20 > seems to me that your objection is specifically to the use of the term= =20 > 'bidirectional reachability', because you read that to imply something= =20 > stronger than what Babel does?=20 > =20 > If so, what term would you suggest to use instead? Or would it suffice= =20 > to explicitly spell out that this is a weaker property than in some=20 > other places (which?)?=20 No problem, let me explain one more time. The way Babel is currently specified allows a protocol instance think it ha= s a 2-way exchange with a neighbour, whereas in reality it can be just fed = with replayed old packets. That's the way the protocol is literally specifi= ed, no matter what was originally meant and what comments were made on the = mailing list or in person. The way it is commonly specified for other protocols involves a nonce or an= other proof of freshness. For example, completing a 3-way TCP handshake on = behalf of a random remote host is impossible with just replayed packets. TC= P-based protocols rely on this property; non-TCP protocols have to implemen= t this property themselves: DD sequence numbers in OSPF, nonces in IKE, MPT= CP, IPv6 mobility and even almost (but not really, because the nonce is not= in the right TLV type) Babel. There are examples in many other protocol de= signs as this is quite an old problem. To answer your question with the above in mind, the specification should sa= y what it means and mean what it says. I see at least the following ways to= achieve that: 1. If the Babel base spec really really needs to replace a standard wheel w= ith a square one, it must not call it a "wheel", it should explain the desi= gn choice and its gains and it must discuss the drawbacks implied by the cu= stom solution. This includes the burden of 2-way reachability proof on the = security mechanism. I cannot suggest a good term for calling it at the mome= nt. 2. Alternatively, the 2-way reachability should be a straightforward, no-ca= tch, no-surprise, nonce-based reachability a typical implementor expects to= see in a routing protocol. As far as I can see, any of the above would be better than the present stat= e. Which approach is better than the other is an open question, as well as = if anybody would like to suggest other ways to fix this problem in this doc= ument. Thanks. --=20 Denis Ovsienko From nobody Tue Oct 31 10:07:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC5913F9D9 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hMZpJDUdXHp4 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in5.apple.com (mail-out5.apple.com [17.151.62.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6EB413F9C6 for ; 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Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e13-7c9ff70000005d69-6c-59f8ada73fe3 Received: from jimbu.apple.com (jimbu.apple.com [17.151.62.37]) by relay4.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id A0.0A.31187.7ADA8F95; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Received: from da0602a-dhcp227.apple.com (da0602a-dhcp227.apple.com [17.226.23.227]) by jimbu.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.3.20170825 64bit (built Aug 25 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OYP00M1E67BFH90@jimbu.apple.com>; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi X-Priority: Medium In-reply-to: <15f7353f41b.ffa1d41453323.6020794963079882883@ovsienko.info> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:06:46 -0700 Cc: Babel at IETF Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <4B024CCA-1E6E-4D67-9013-20BFEDF6D70C@apple.com> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <15f727f92d8.11e6c3dbd43397.2376860294132856941@ovsienko.info> <87zi87lass.fsf@toke.dk> <15f7353f41b.ffa1d41453323.6020794963079882883@ovsienko.info> To: Denis Ovsienko X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.1.6) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYrrt87Y9Ig787NS22LOpmsZhz6zuL A5PHkiU/mTxWnNzIFsAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJVx4+BTpoJFMhV7GpeyNTDeEeti5OSQEDCR OLriFUsXIxeHkMBqJok3m28zwiROHJrKBJHYwCjxfvcpFpAEr4CgxI/J94BsDg5mAXWJKVNy IWrmMkk83nEIrFlYQFqi68JdVgg7UmL2hDY2kHo2AS2JA2uMIOYLSWzZMResnFPAS+LTtS6w EhYBVYmbjRogYWYBJYnV3+4wQ9jaEk/eXWCFuMBG4uWUV1CnnWaS2H3vPDtIQkRAQ+LLlnnM EPMVJY7MnMMMUiQh0MMmcX/yErYJjCKzkLwwC+GFWUh2LGBkXsUolJuYmaObmWeql1hQkJOq l5yfu4kRFPDT7YR3MJ5eZXWIUYCDUYmH1yH+e6QQa2JZcWXuIUZpDhYlcd72NUAhgfTEktTs 1NSC1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjEJt8wo82437dC6wvlW0ffTg34Sv8zcvK3lS15zE+SNcSEnb Km3HySe2GaKXv7wo5n4mI79dtINn4qHAT/lnImv6dYJTz8ivXK8jUJlie+dhid9Pw/4sWcbr X1WWnsm6nxqcpv2C/0rJly27HmodPlS09dfphWz786rtp7BpKH5fMrUhdbY5mxJLcUaioRZz UXEiADssBABZAgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OVXf52h+RBrtOqFpsWdTNYjHn1ncW ByaPJUt+MnmsOLmRLYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSvjxsGnTAWLZCr2NC5la2C8I9bFyMkhIWAi ceLQVKYuRi4OIYENjBLvd59iAUnwCghK/Jh8D8jm4GAWUJeYMiUXomYuk8TjHYcYQWqEBaQl ui7cZYWwIyVmT2hjA6lnE9CSOLDGCGK+kMSWHXPByjkFvCQ+XesCK2ERUJW42agBEmYWUJJY /e0OM4StLfHk3QVWiAtsJF5OeQV12mkmid33zrODJEQENCS+bJnHDDFfUeLIzDnMExgFZyG5 ehbC1bOQjF3AyLyKUaAoNSex0kQvsaAgJ1UvOT93EyMoQBsKw3cw/ltmdYhRgINRiYd3RuL3 SCHWxLLiytxDjBIczEoivL0rfkQK8aYkVlalFuXHF5XmpBYfYpTmYFES5y2YD5QSSE8sSc1O TS1ILYLJMnFwSjUwPuZw0bmZP4NxzbFT9WIXxa5k/S01Z/k1sVy0Zs4WvabD7Y8KFW0aDv3e OfFFoK/O+ezmSbsWrVpeZiSw42mWistXXtvJx61vPs+MZTgsNU2KYzr3G//Xx79G7Zc6wbOs fIeWxFeTihsXOaNiNeMXPFh02rHlsPvat/bTxcssv+w7dfARa2a8uxJLcUaioRZzUXEiADP7 If5MAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:07:01 -0000 Hi Denis, When I implemented RFC6126 from spec only (without looking at existing implementations nor discussing with other = implementors), I was not confused by bidirectional reachability. The document clearly = specifies what that means. I wouldn't assume your definition is better than the one in = RFC6126. Are you suggesting we should only have 4 bits of metric for implementors = that are used to RIP? David > On Oct 31, 2017, at 09:46, Denis Ovsienko wrote: >=20 > ---- On Tue, 31 Oct 2017 13:13:55 +0000 Toke = H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen wrote ----=20 >>> The problem, as it was already explained before, is the = bi-directional=20 >>> reachability -- a concept used in many other protocols. When the = base=20 >>> Babel protocol spec uses a well-known term to mean a non-standard=20 >>> behaviour, it misleads the implementers.=20 >>=20 >> I'm terribly sorry if I'm being obtuse here, but from this comment it=20= >> seems to me that your objection is specifically to the use of the = term=20 >> 'bidirectional reachability', because you read that to imply = something=20 >> stronger than what Babel does?=20 >>=20 >> If so, what term would you suggest to use instead? Or would it = suffice=20 >> to explicitly spell out that this is a weaker property than in some=20= >> other places (which?)?=20 >=20 > No problem, let me explain one more time. >=20 > The way Babel is currently specified allows a protocol instance think = it has a 2-way exchange with a neighbour, whereas in reality it can be = just fed with replayed old packets. That's the way the protocol is = literally specified, no matter what was originally meant and what = comments were made on the mailing list or in person. >=20 > The way it is commonly specified for other protocols involves a nonce = or another proof of freshness. For example, completing a 3-way TCP = handshake on behalf of a random remote host is impossible with just = replayed packets. TCP-based protocols rely on this property; non-TCP = protocols have to implement this property themselves: DD sequence = numbers in OSPF, nonces in IKE, MPTCP, IPv6 mobility and even almost = (but not really, because the nonce is not in the right TLV type) Babel. = There are examples in many other protocol designs as this is quite an = old problem. >=20 > To answer your question with the above in mind, the specification = should say what it means and mean what it says. I see at least the = following ways to achieve that: >=20 > 1. If the Babel base spec really really needs to replace a standard = wheel with a square one, it must not call it a "wheel", it should = explain the design choice and its gains and it must discuss the = drawbacks implied by the custom solution. This includes the burden of = 2-way reachability proof on the security mechanism. I cannot suggest a = good term for calling it at the moment. >=20 > 2. Alternatively, the 2-way reachability should be a straightforward, = no-catch, no-surprise, nonce-based reachability a typical implementor = expects to see in a routing protocol. >=20 > As far as I can see, any of the above would be better than the present = state. Which approach is better than the other is an open question, as = well as if anybody would like to suggest other ways to fix this problem = in this document. >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > --=20 > Denis Ovsienko >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel From nobody Tue Oct 31 10:25:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD4F13FA11 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:25:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gGxfSPgthe_J for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.toke.dk (mail.toke.dk [52.28.52.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09EF613FA0A for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 10:25:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Toke =?utf-8?Q?H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=20161023; t=1509470727; bh=aHUvHUD1Bs2Bk2rQrMtMQGefY3opjTuzsdgyZ5cgaRM=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=SLhn38s1Z6ZE7qDvef1lY3LwFMeqgkUYp9DJucrpkbrgMRun977YXdtNW/NaDYZok DKFdfRyjnmHpMNqAEM9sea6+BJUzvk9ZXWU+HxxL2ADfdzTI1nUvjD3glgfBJSbBdT V/aELN/KEMZ2r2AbMeIildQsr+MpjPMNNSs4poiHcE0eNSlvXpBiliLTGvAiDbGqnY IlRpdXrpSMZRY5GaiQJNVPG/uNoc4LGJa2npxlHWmkKAJd8nm0SVvRMTdqNlxlXnLc drVaWUvqhrN1uBO2Ud+yp1c9U2wx5Sr4/0w3P69ppveeOKd7nvj9c8ksUxSbgBqlnL n+jaV9BYYauiw== To: Denis Ovsienko , Babel at IETF In-Reply-To: <15f7353f41b.ffa1d41453323.6020794963079882883@ovsienko.info> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <15f727f92d8.11e6c3dbd43397.2376860294132856941@ovsienko.info> <87zi87lass.fsf@toke.dk> <15f7353f41b.ffa1d41453323.6020794963079882883@ovsienko.info> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 18:25:26 +0100 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <87inevut4p.fsf@toke.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:25:48 -0000 Denis Ovsienko writes: > > I'm terribly sorry if I'm being obtuse here, but from this comment it > > seems to me that your objection is specifically to the use of the term > > 'bidirectional reachability', because you read that to imply something > > stronger than what Babel does? > > > > If so, what term would you suggest to use instead? Or would it suffice > > to explicitly spell out that this is a weaker property than in some > > other places (which?)? > > No problem, let me explain one more time. > > The way Babel is currently specified allows a protocol instance think > it has a 2-way exchange with a neighbour, whereas in reality it can be > just fed with replayed old packets. That's the way the protocol is > literally specified, no matter what was originally meant and what > comments were made on the mailing list or in person. > > The way it is commonly specified for other protocols involves a nonce > or another proof of freshness. For example, completing a 3-way TCP > handshake on behalf of a random remote host is impossible with just > replayed packets. TCP-based protocols rely on this property; non-TCP > protocols have to implement this property themselves: DD sequence > numbers in OSPF, nonces in IKE, MPTCP, IPv6 mobility and even almost > (but not really, because the nonce is not in the right TLV type) > Babel. There are examples in many other protocol designs as this is > quite an old problem. Yeah, this is what I meant: You're saying that "bidirectional reachability" has a specific, well-defined and ubiquitous meaning which implies certain security properties (such as replay protection). However, prior to you brining it up, I have not been aware of any such well-defined meaning of the term. For TCP, for instance, it's called the "3-way handshake". So I would agree with you that if the term used was "handshake", your point stands. But simply using "bidirectional reachability" in the informal way it is used in the Babel spec does not imply such a specific term to me. So I would ask you to point me any definitions that include this implication of the wording currently in the Babel spec? -Toke P.S., as I said, I'm fine with adding a note to, say, section 3.4.2 that makes it clear that the protocol does *not* have this stronger property. From nobody Tue Oct 31 12:03:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611DC13F630 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 12:03:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tXh9cQ3vvyuL for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 12:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA19E13F622 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9VJ2G1i024103; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:02:16 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA570EB215; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:02:16 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 66qE3JgUacxa; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:02:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E25AEB217; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:02:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e9bnj-000661-OQ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:02:15 +0100 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:02:15 +0100 Message-ID: <7i7evb6szs.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Denis Ovsienko Cc: "Babel at IETF" In-Reply-To: <15f7353f41b.ffa1d41453323.6020794963079882883@ovsienko.info> References: <15f6dcf2c8d.e66056b96940.9155266730078596107@ovsienko.info> <871slkb3r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <15f727f92d8.11e6c3dbd43397.2376860294132856941@ovsienko.info> <87zi87lass.fsf@toke.dk> <15f7353f41b.ffa1d41453323.6020794963079882883@ovsienko.info> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:02:16 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F8C8B8.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F8C8B8.002 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F8C8B8.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [babel] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-babel-rfc6126bis-04.txt (10/29 - 11/17) X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 19:03:09 -0000 > The way Babel is currently specified allows a protocol instance think it > has a 2-way exchange with a neighbour, whereas in reality it can be just > fed with replayed old packets. Correct. Without any extra security protocol, Babel is vulnerable to spoofed or replayed packets. It is expected that it is layered over a security protocol that protects against spoofed and replayed packets (be it DTLS, IPsec, WPA2 or 7298bis). I've tried to make that clear in the Security Considerations section. > That's the way the protocol is literally specified, no matter what was > originally meant and what comments were made on the mailing list or in > person. That is the way the protocol is specified, and that is the intent. > The way it is commonly specified for other protocols involves a nonce or > another proof of freshness. This is simply not true, Denis. To take an example that you quote (incorrectly) in your previous mail, OSPF does not use a stateful handshake (see Section A.3.2 of RFC 2328). Yet, Section 7.1 of RFC 2328 says this: The Hello Protocol is responsible for establishing and maintaining neighbor relationships. It also ensures that communication between neighbors is bidirectional. [...] After a neighbor has been discovered, bidirectional communication ensured... In other words, RFC 2328 uses "bidirectional communication" to mean exactly the same property that Babel calls "bidirectional reachability". Denis, I'll remind you what you said at IETF-97: The base protocol specification defines no means to relate a received IHU TLV to any of the recently sent Hello TLVs. The authentication mechanism design did not account for this property at the time and hence did not include its own measures to address it. On the bright side is that now the time would be good to solve this in either the base protocol or the authentication mechanism or both. I'd like to understand why your position has changed so radically since then, and why you now believe that this must absolutely be solved in the base protocol. -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Oct 31 16:11:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BC813F81F for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:11:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wum_WUfhnjWz for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7319913F43E for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9VNB1kO013077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Nov 2017 00:11:01 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9VNB12I007979; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 00:11:01 +0100 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B15AEB367; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 00:11:01 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 3uYvkLXBwm5p; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 00:11:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 64CA6EB365; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 00:10:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 00:10:59 +0100 Message-ID: <878tfqdibg.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: babel@ietf.org CC: Denis Ovsienko User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Wed, 01 Nov 2017 00:11:01 +0100 (CET) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Wed, 01 Nov 2017 00:11:01 +0100 (CET) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F90305.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59F90305.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F90305.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F90305.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F90305.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F90305.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [babel] A few words about the design of Babel: neighbour association X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 23:11:05 -0000 Hi, I thought I'd give a few hints about the design of Babel and explain what I think it is that bothers Denis. Please bear with me, and let me lecture a little. Implementability is an important feature of a network protocol, and one that is often neglected. The main criterion in the design of Babel was ease of implementation: the original plan was to finish implementing Babel in one week-end. Babel turned out way more complex than originally envisioned: it was meant to be RIP improved, not some fancy loop-avoiding protocol. (Think IGRP rather than EIGRP.) Still, some of the originally envisioned implementability remains. The main technnques that are used to make the protocol easy to understand and implement include: - no state machines: all of Babel's state is encapsulated in the data structures and timers described in Section 3.2; receiving a message causes the data structures to be updated and some action taken, there is no implicit state; - no overloading of TLVs: for example, Hello TLVs are for reverse reachability, Updates are for route acquisition; you don't assume reverse reachability just because you got an Update; - minimum interaction between subprotocols: when you receive an Update, you update the route table, with no consideration for the reachability status of the neighbour. Of course, at some point you need to glue the pieces together, and that happens in Sections 3.5.2, 3.7, and 3.8 (metric computation, route selection, and origination of requests respectively). Not suprisingly, these are the tricky bits of the protocol, and the ones that I spent the most time understanding and tweaking. Now, having a modular protocol is fine, but it breaks down once you add security: a security extension needs to consider the security of the protocol as a whole, and hence there is some tension between modularity and security (just like there is tension between modularity and performance -- think of all the cool things people do when they decide to ignore protocol layering). In other words, security requires tightly coupled global state, and Denis found the loose state of Babel lacking. What Denis is suggesting is that we tighten the state in the core protocol, most notably require a more reliable neighbour acquisition procedure. David, Toke and myself, the people who have actually implemented Babel, are keen on keeping the loose coupling in the core protocol, since we're not convinced that all possible security mechanisms will require the same form of tighter coupling. We argue that if an extension needs tighter coupling, the extension itself should either put stronger constraints on the state of the protocol, or define a new set of tightly coupled state. -- Juliusz