From nobody Sun Nov 1 05:31:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5401B8222 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 05:31:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0FvgCWvj3RSm for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 05:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0144.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EDFC1B2A37 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR0301MB0693; H:BY2PR0301MB0693.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BY2PR0301MB0693FAF93DF714933E64325DD62D0BY2PR0301MB0693_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Nov 2015 13:30:52.4677 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR0301MB0693 Archived-At: Cc: Osama Zia Subject: Re: [bess] Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 13:31:00 -0000 --_000_BY2PR0301MB0693FAF93DF714933E64325DD62D0BY2PR0301MB0693_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support. Luyuan -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:31 AM To: bess@ietf.org Cc: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc@tools.ietf.org Subject: Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hello working group, This email starts a two-week poll on adopting draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc-03 [1] as a working group item. Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or not (= in the later case, please also state the reasons). This poll runs until **November 13th**. (3 weeks to account for the busy IETF week) *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that applies= to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IE= TF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). =3D=3D> *If* you are listed as a document author or contributor please resp= ond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant= IPR. The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from each = author and contributor. If you are not listed as an author or contributor, then please explicitly r= espond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in = conformance with IETF rules. Thank you, Martin & Thomas bess chairs --_000_BY2PR0301MB0693FAF93DF714933E64325DD62D0BY2PR0301MB0693_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
=
Support.<=
/pre>

=
Luyuan

=
 

=
-----Original Message-----<=
o:p>


=
From: Thomas Morin [mailto:=
thomas.morin@orange.com] 


=
Sent: Thursday, October 22,=
 2015 8:31 AM


=
To: bess@ietf.org


=
Cc: draft-hao-bess-inter-nv=
o3-vpn-optionc@tools.ietf.org


=
Subject: Poll for adoption:=
 draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc


=
 

=
Hello working group,


=
 

=
This email starts a two-wee=
k poll on adopting


=
draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-v=
pn-optionc-03 [1] as a working group item.


=
 

=
Please send comments to the=
 list and state if you support adoption or not (in the later case, please a=
lso state the reasons).


=
 

=
This poll runs until **Nove=
mber 13th**.


=
(3 weeks to account for the=
 busy IETF week)


=
 

=
 

=
*Coincidentally*, we are al=
so polling for knowledge of any IPR that applies to this draft, to ensure t=
hat IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979=
, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).


=
 

=
=3D=3D> *If* you are lis=
ted as a document author or contributor please respond to this email and in=
dicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR.<=
/pre>

=
 

=
The draft will not be adopt=
ed until a response has been received from each author and contributor.


=
 

=
If you are not listed as an=
 author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are awar=
e of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules=
.


=
 

=
Thank you,


=
 

=
Martin & Thomas


=
bess chairs


=
 

=
 

=
 

=
 

=
 

=
 

=
 

=
 

=
 

 
--_000_BY2PR0301MB0693FAF93DF714933E64325DD62D0BY2PR0301MB0693_-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 08:58:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18D21B89C7 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:58:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.74 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78J8RI3Jz9d4 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [58.251.152.64]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E130C1B89CB for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 08:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.24.1.50 (EHLO nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.1.50]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CYG02381; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 00:56:03 +0800 (CST) Received: from NKGEML506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.20]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 00:56:00 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , "bess@ietfa.amsl.com" Thread-Topic: Re: [bess] Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AdEUqPrjPZPulUYXQRu34sQ6DuKGEQAHMUvq Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 16:55:59 +0000 Message-ID: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8CA5F547@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.185.50] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8CA5F547nkgeml506mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [bess] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogUmU6ICBQb2xsIGZvciBhZG9wdGlvbjogZHJh?= =?gb2312?b?ZnQtaGFvLWJlc3MtaW50ZXItbnZvMy12cG4tb3B0aW9uYw==?= X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 16:58:07 -0000 --_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8CA5F547nkgeml506mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U3VwcG9ydCBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbi4gVGhpcyBpcyB0cnVseSB0aGUgdXNlZnVsIHdvcmsgYW5kIHdl bGwgYWNjZXB0ZWQuDQoNCg0KQmVzdCBSZWdhcmRzLA0KWmhlbmJpbihSb2JpbikNCg0KDQoNCg0K DQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KDQpGcm9tOiBUaG9tYXMgTW9yaW4gW21haWx0 bzp0aG9tYXMubW9yaW5Ab3JhbmdlLmNvbV0NCg0KU2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXksIE9jdG9iZXIgMjIs IDIwMTUgODozMSBBTQ0KDQpUbzogYmVzc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KDQpDYzogZHJhZnQtaGFvLWJlc3Mt aW50ZXItbnZvMy12cG4tb3B0aW9uY0B0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZw0KDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBQb2xsIGZv ciBhZG9wdGlvbjogZHJhZnQtaGFvLWJlc3MtaW50ZXItbnZvMy12cG4tb3B0aW9uYw0KDQoNCg0K SGVsbG8gd29ya2luZyBncm91cCwNCg0KDQoNClRoaXMgZW1haWwgc3RhcnRzIGEgdHdvLXdlZWsg cG9sbCBvbiBhZG9wdGluZw0KDQpkcmFmdC1oYW8tYmVzcy1pbnRlci1udm8zLXZwbi1vcHRpb25j LTAzIFsxXSBhcyBhIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgaXRlbS4NCg0KDQoNClBsZWFzZSBzZW5kIGNvbW1l bnRzIHRvIHRoZSBsaXN0IGFuZCBzdGF0ZSBpZiB5b3Ugc3VwcG9ydCBhZG9wdGlvbiBvciBub3Qg KGluIHRoZSBsYXRlciBjYXNlLCBwbGVhc2UgYWxzbyBzdGF0ZSB0aGUgcmVhc29ucykuDQoNCg0K DQpUaGlzIHBvbGwgcnVucyB1bnRpbCAqKk5vdmVtYmVyIDEzdGgqKi4NCg0KKDMgd2Vla3MgdG8g YWNjb3VudCBmb3IgdGhlIGJ1c3kgSUVURiB3ZWVrKQ0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCipDb2luY2lkZW50YWxs eSosIHdlIGFyZSBhbHNvIHBvbGxpbmcgZm9yIGtub3dsZWRnZSBvZiBhbnkgSVBSIHRoYXQgYXBw bGllcyB0byB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0LCB0byBlbnN1cmUgdGhhdCBJUFIgaGFzIGJlZW4gZGlzY2xvc2Vk IGluIGNvbXBsaWFuY2Ugd2l0aCBJRVRGIElQUiBydWxlcyAoc2VlIFJGQ3MgMzk3OSwgNDg3OSwg MzY2OSBhbmQgNTM3OCBmb3IgbW9yZSBkZXRhaWxzKS4NCg0KDQoNCj09PiAqSWYqIHlvdSBhcmUg bGlzdGVkIGFzIGEgZG9jdW1lbnQgYXV0aG9yIG9yIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yIHBsZWFzZSByZXNwb25k IHRvIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgYW5kIGluZGljYXRlIHdoZXRoZXIgb3Igbm90IHlvdSBhcmUgYXdhcmUg b2YgYW55IHJlbGV2YW50IElQUi4NCg0KDQoNClRoZSBkcmFmdCB3aWxsIG5vdCBiZSBhZG9wdGVk IHVudGlsIGEgcmVzcG9uc2UgaGFzIGJlZW4gcmVjZWl2ZWQgZnJvbSBlYWNoIGF1dGhvciBhbmQg Y29udHJpYnV0b3IuDQoNCg0KDQpJZiB5b3UgYXJlIG5vdCBsaXN0ZWQgYXMgYW4gYXV0aG9yIG9y IGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yLCB0aGVuIHBsZWFzZSBleHBsaWNpdGx5IHJlc3BvbmQgb25seSBpZiB5b3Ug YXJlIGF3YXJlIG9mIGFueSBJUFIgdGhhdCBoYXMgbm90IHlldCBiZWVuIGRpc2Nsb3NlZCBpbiBj b25mb3JtYW5jZSB3aXRoIElFVEYgcnVsZXMuDQoNCg0KDQpUaGFuayB5b3UsDQoNCg0KDQpNYXJ0 aW4gJiBUaG9tYXMNCg0KYmVzcyBjaGFpcnMNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoN Cg0KDQoNCg0K --_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8CA5F547nkgeml506mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Support WG adoption. = This is truly the useful work and well accepted.

 
Best Regards,
Zhenbin(Robin)
 
 
 
-----Original Messa=
ge-----
From: Thomas Morin =
[mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] 
Sent: Thursday, Oct=
ober 22, 2015 8:31 AM
To: bess@ietf.org
Cc: draft-hao-bess-=
inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Poll for a=
doption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
 
Hello working group=
,
 
This email starts a=
 two-week poll on adopting
draft-hao-bess-inte=
r-nvo3-vpn-optionc-03 [1] as a working group item.
 
Please send comment=
s to the list and state if you support adoption or not (in the later case, =
please also state the reasons).
 
This poll runs unti=
l **November 13th**.
(3 weeks to account=
 for the busy IETF week)
 
 
*Coincidentally*, w=
e are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that applies to this draft, to =
ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R=
FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
 
=3D=3D> *If* you=
 are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to this emai=
l and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR.

 


The draft will not =
be adopted until a response has been received from each author and contribu=
tor.


 


If you are not list=
ed as an author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you =
are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IE=
TF rules.


 


Thank you,

 


Martin & Thomas=



bess chairs<=
/pre>

 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 
--_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8CA5F547nkgeml506mbxchi_-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 20:57:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A491B4569 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:57:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UE-Wq35azCb5 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A465D1B4568 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDJ67908; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 04:57:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 04:57:43 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.187]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:57:30 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Quintin zhao , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHREWRbF06gR8C56UO49qZRkcsQnZ6CDjWagAODvWGAAMMEkP//hTUAgAJYASk= Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 04:57:29 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB41774@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: , <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657D78428@dfweml701-chm>, <11208E03C9803E4CB4C3D898F153D6C03910EA03@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <11208E03C9803E4CB4C3D898F153D6C03910EA03@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.185.160] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

How to interconnect DC VPNs with WAN VPNs in a much scalable way is very= important in the hybrid cloud scenario, especially for those SPs who opera= te both DC VPNs and WAN VPNs. Therefore, it support the WG adopti= on of this draft.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: BESS [bess-bounces@iet= f.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Quintin zhao [quintin.zhao@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2015=C4=EA11=D4=C21=C8=D5 9:06
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: bess@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [bess] Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo= 3-vpn-optionc

Support.  This draft is a practical solution for VPN n= etwork and NVO3 inter-connection.

 

Quintin Zhao

-----------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------

"Susan Hares" <share= s@ndzh.com> <= span style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt; P= ADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: inh= erit; COLOR: #666666; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt; BORDER-RI= GHT: windowtext 1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in">Tue, 27 October 2015 15:59 UTCShow header

Support as a co-author.   I am=
 not aware of any IPR relating to this draft. 
 
This option provides a highly scalable o=
ption  for stitching NV03 networks and MPLS/IP VPN for those devices w=
hich can provide transport-layer stitching. 
 
Sue Hares
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com=
] 
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:31 A=
M
To: bess@ietf.org
Cc: draft-hao-bess-inter-=
nvo3-vpn-optionc@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Poll for adoption: draft-hao-be=
ss-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
 
Hello working group,
 
This email starts a two-week poll on ado=
pting
draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc-03=
 [1] as a working group item.
 
Please send comments to the list and sta=
te if you support adoption or not (in the later case, please also state the=
 reasons).
 
This poll runs until **November 13th**.<=
/span>
(3 weeks to account for the busy IETF we=
ek)
 
 
*Coincidentally*, we are also polling fo=
r knowledge of any IPR that applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has b=
een disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 =
and 5378 for more details).
 
=3D=3D> *If* you are listed as a docu=
ment author or contributor please respond to this email and indicate whethe=
r or not you are aware of any relevant IPR.
 
The draft will not be adopted until a re=
sponse has been received from each author and contributor.
 
If you are not listed as an author or co=
ntributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR =
that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.

 


Thank you,


 


Martin & Thomas


bess chairs


 


[1] https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc-03
--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB41774NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 21:03:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CCC11B45A6; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 21:03:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QXZyyBE6JJ4K; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 21:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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Hi Alvaro,

 

Thanks for your detailed AD review. We will update the draft according t= o your comments soon.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu (on behalf of all co-authors)

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Alvaro Retana (aretana= ) [aretana@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2015=C4=EA10=D4=C228=C8=D5 5:38
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: VIGOUREUX, MARTIN (MARTIN); bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess= @ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02

Dear authors:

I just finished reading this document.  

All of what is described in this document is straight forward, so much so t= hat it requires no change to existing technology, which makes me think that= users/operators have been able to do this all along.  Is that correct= ?  Is there anything special that was missing that this document brings to light?  

Being one of several possible solutions for "network virtualization overlays within and/or= between data centers", I'm wondering about the value of publishing what amounts to a = set of use cases without even discussing when their use would be suitable (= declared out of scope).  I reviewed the discussions on the lists (l3vpn/bess) and can clearly see why the Shepherd= characterized the document as "could have been considered controversi= al".  Had I reviewed the document at adoption time I probably wou= ld have ended up in the rough side of the consensus.  There's obviously no need to revisit the topic of what do to with th= is document since clearly the WG Chairs believe there is consensus to publi= sh.

I do have some other comments (below). In general some of the text could be= made easier to read (see some nits below).  I would like to see my co= mment about rfc2119 language addressed (and an update published) before sta= rting the IETF Last Call.

Thanks!

Alvaro.


Major:
  1. The= use of rfc2119 keywords is not required.  Note that in general these = keywords "MUST only be used where it is act= ually required for interoperation", but you're using them to apparentl= y express requirements w/out specific guidance or to restate what is normal= network operation .  For example:
    • In Section 3.3. (CE Host Discovery) the text reads: "PE routers SHOULD be able to discover their local CE hosts=A1=AD PE routers could accomplish local CE host discovery by=A1= =ADARP or ND=A1=ADLLDP=A1=ADVDP), or even interaction with the data center = orchestration system=A1=AD"  There is no specific mechanism manda= ted that supports the use of "SHOULD".
    • In Section 3.4. (ARP/ND Proxy): "PE routers SHOULD on= ly respond to an ARP request or Neighbor Solicitation (NS) message for a ta= rget host when it has a best route for that target host in the associated VRF and the outgoing interface of that best route i= s different from the one over which the ARP request or NS message is receiv= ed."  Isn't this how proxy ARP already works?  Am I missing = something that requires the use of "SHOULD" in this document?
    • Section = 4.3. (TTL and Traceroute) describes a limitation and then says "=A1=AD= unless special TTL processing for such case has been impleme= nted (e.g., if the source and destination addresses=A1=ADbelong to the same extended subnet, neither ingress nor egress PE routers SHOULD = decrement the TTL=A1=ADTTL of such <= /font>packet SHOULD NOT be copied into the TTL of the transport=A1=AD" =  In this case the rfc2119 keywords are used as part of an example (e.g= .)..which doesn't really support the use of "SHOULD/SHOULD NOT". =  Is the intent to specify this "special processing" in this document?  If so, why "SHOULD" and not "MUST"? &n= bsp;Algo, given that the text appears in the Limitations section, if you're= mandating the "special processing" then it wouldn't be a limitat= ion anymore..
Minor:
  1. I think that RFC4761, 4762, 4659, 5798 and 6513 should be Informatio= nal references.
  2. You first use "VS" in Section 3.6.  I'm assuming= this is related to "virtual subnet", but there's no explicit ass= ociation.
  3. Multicast.  Section 3.= 2. (Multicast) says that for "IP multicast between CE hosts of the same virtual subnet,&nb= sp;MVPN technologies [RFC6513] could be directly used without any change".  I'm assuming that you're = not referring to link-local multicast (between hosts on the same subnet) be= cause later (Section 4.2) you say that "link-local multicast traffic cannot be supported".  Please clarify in 3.2 what type o= f multicast you're talking about, and/or which you're not.
  4. Section 4.3. (TTL and = Traceroute).  What does this mean: "traceroute output would reflect the fact that these two hosts belonging to the same subnet are actua= lly connected v= ia an virtual subnet emulated by ARP proxy, rather than a normal = LAN"?  I think I know, but please be specific in the text.

Nits:
  1. Section 1. (Introduction)
    • s/commonly used in those situations/commonly used in situations
    • There are a couple of very long sentences that could be simplif= ied =A1=AA they make sense, but other reviewers may not capture the essence= .  Just a suggestion
      • OLD>
      • As a result, the traffic from a cloud use= r (i.e., a VPN user) which
      • is destined for a given server l= ocated at one data center
      • location of such extended subnet= may arrive at another data
      • center location firstly accordin= g to the subnet route, and then
      • be forwarded to the location whe= re the service is actually
      • located.  This suboptimal r= outing would obviously result in an
      • unnecessary consumption of the b= andwidth resource between data
      • centers.  Furthermore, in t= he case where the traditional VPLS
      • technology [RFC476= 1] [RFC4762] is used for data center
      • interconnect and default gateway= s of different data center
      • locations are configured within = the same virtual router
      • redundancy group, the returning = traffic from that server to the
      • cloud user may be forwarded at l= ayer2 to a default gateway
      • located at one of the remote dat= a center premises, rather than
      • the one placed at the local data= center location.  This
      • suboptimal routing would also un= necessarily consume the bandwidth
      • resource between data centers
      • NEW>
      • As a result, the traffic between a = specific user and server, in different 
      • data centers, may fir= st be routed through a third data center.
      • This suboptimal routing = would obviously result in an
      • unnecessary consumption of the bandwi= dth resource between data
      • centers.  Furthermore, in the case = where traditional VPLS
      • technology [RFC4761] [RFC4762] is used for = data center
      • interconnect, return traffic from a server may be forw= arded to a
      • default gateway located in a different data center due = to the configuration
      • in a virtual router redundancy group.  T= his
      • suboptimal routing would also unnecessarily consume the bandwi= dth
      • resource between data centers.
  2. Please be consistent on how "Layer 2" and "Layer= 3" is used..it is not consistent now.  My personal preference is= "Layer x".
  3. s/CE hosts/hosts
  4. s/ARP proxy/an ARP proxy
  5. Missing references:  "= Link Layer Discovery= Protocol (LLDP)", "VSI Discovery and Configuration Protocol (VDP)"
    6. <= /ol>
--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB41789NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 00:42:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietf.org Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4F51B3503; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 00:42:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.7.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151102084255.28153.74720.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 00:42:55 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [bess] The BESS WG has adopted draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 08:42:56 -0000 The BESS WG has adopted draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc (entered by Thomas Morin) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc/ Comment: This poll runs until **November 13th**. From nobody Mon Nov 2 01:03:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97181B3544; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:03:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vl945Qg_jqcP; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 214A91B3543; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by omfedm12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 6DD0F18C1F1; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:03:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 7CA14238128; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:03:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.3) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:03:36 +0100 To: IETF Secretariat , , , References: <20151102084255.28153.74720.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <20401_1446455032_563726F7_20401_299_6_563726E7.4020401@orange.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:03:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151102084255.28153.74720.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.3] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] The BESS WG has adopted draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc (*not yet*, in fact) X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 09:03:55 -0000 Please ignore this bogus automated email: the document is just being called for adoption, and no decision will be taken before the call for adoption is over. -Thomas 2015-11-02, IETF Secretariat: > > The BESS WG has adopted draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc (entered by > Thomas Morin) > > The document is available at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc/ > > > Comment: > This poll runs until **November 13th**. > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Mon Nov 2 06:28:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9C81B3751 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:28:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zG0dmkoiMNjD for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx6.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332B71B373D for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.168.119]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTP id A3038124732ED for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:15:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id D145CA1E4B567; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:27:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id tA2ERnmu093287; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:27:49 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from chen.ran@zte.com.cn) To: bess@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: C3E81342:70F6B038-48257EF1:004F31F7; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: chen.ran@zte.com.cn Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:28:01 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-11-02 22:27:37, Serialize complete at 2015-11-02 22:27:37 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 004F73D748257EF1_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn tA2ERnmu093287 Archived-At: Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com Subject: Re: [bess] Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-option3 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 14:28:07 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 004F73D748257EF1_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Support. Ran Chen -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:31 AM To: bess@ietf.org Cc: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc@tools.ietf.org Subject: Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hello working group, This email starts a two-week poll on adopting draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc-03 [1] as a working group item. Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). This poll runs until **November 13th**. (3 weeks to account for the busy IETF week) *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). ==> *If* you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from each author and contributor. If you are not listed as an author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. Thank you, Martin & Thomas bess chairs --=_alternative 004F73D748257EF1_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Support.

Ran Chen


-----Original Message-----

From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com]

Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:31 AM

To: bess@ietf.org

Cc: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc@tools.ietf.org

Subject: Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc



Hello working group,



This email starts a two-week poll on adopting

draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc-03 [1] as a working group item.



Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or not (in the later case, please also state the reasons).



This poll runs until **November 13th**.

(3 weeks to account for the busy IETF week)





*Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).



==> *If* you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR.



The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from each author and contributor.



If you are not listed as an author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.



Thank you,



Martin & Thomas

bess chairs

 --=_alternative 004F73D748257EF1_=-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 14:19:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC6F1B348B for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 14:19:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xuoy9DsENMgB for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 14:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0121.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E603A1B348C for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 14:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:19:39 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:19:39 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , "ssalam@cisco.com" , "dcai@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn-multihoming Thread-Index: AdEXSXpVw5tH5HzuSpK/KH0bbWEPVg== Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:19:38 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB1715; 5:jNHYrc4JEo6r+TxOfClZ72ltEfoMZnP60rhvDrv8sGWDACoIv9moyW8shf0vDKoSHJGeff8hRohiZmRuayjUNusQnptWPRN9jwIhpixxhwuq5IYAlhnDgaU3B+eESs4JdAlkyJhbnISnTwnWOK3s6A==; 24:GWk/oku1DnNQugcFxUL0pqgMBJO5QcDgdu6PW2E6KfAw19v7p+qgiqYDiP9f29Aqh8q6oqeAtRnlo9FHsabiF7rG/N9RPYM66DrCSWbb/7U=; 20:BgX8Blv7hblXUIxFhiVWGAKC4r4rc3We/ixt4FADtCXxKN7ikHruenNu++r3CLDHJJCYs9eocyifrkZ8fAj3kA== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1715; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(520078)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1715; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1715; x-forefront-prvs: 0750463DC9 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(199003)(189002)(99286002)(106356001)(230783001)(5007970100001)(105586002)(66066001)(87936001)(76576001)(2201001)(101416001)(86362001)(50986999)(5004730100002)(54356999)(5001920100001)(5001960100002)(92566002)(5002640100001)(40100003)(189998001)(2501003)(10400500002)(5890100001)(122556002)(11100500001)(229853001)(5008740100001)(102836002)(81156007)(2900100001)(5003600100002)(74316001)(97736004)(5001770100001)(77096005)(33656002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1715; H:BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Nov 2015 22:19:38.8697 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB1715 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] Questions on draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn-multihoming X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 22:19:42 -0000 Hi, I have a few questions: On the S-PEs, the pseudowires from the Access PEs are terminated onto VRFs, such that all pseudowires within a given redundancy set terminate on a single IP endpoint on the S-PEs. To achieve this, the S-PEs in a given Redundancy Group are configured with the same Anycast IP and MAC addresses on the virtual (sub)interface corresponding to the VRF termination point. Is the virtual interface (like) an IRB interface? Since the S-PEs are running in EVPN single-active redundancy mode, the S-PEs would advertise an Ethernet AD route per vES with the single-active flag set per [RFC7432]. Since only the DF S-PE has its access pseudowire in Active state, only that device would establish an eBGP session with the CE and receive control and data traffic. Will the IRB/virtual interface on a non-DF PE be up? I assume it is - even = though the PW is not active. Would the non-DF PE keeps trying to establish = the eBGP session with the CE? Would that cause issue to the session between= CE and the DF PE? The DF S-PE advertises host prefixes that it receives, from the CE over the eBGP session, to other PEs in the EVI using EVPN route type-5, with the proper ESI set. Remote PEs learn the host prefixes and associate them with the ESI, using the advertising PE as the next-hop for forwarding. Would he DF S-PE advertise other prefixes received on the eBGP session? I a= ssume so but the text only says host prefixes. Other S-PEs in the same Redundancy Group as the advertising PE will receive the same EVPN route type-5 advertisement, and will recognize the associated ESI as a locally attached vES. What is the RT that limits the routes to be imported only the PEs in the sa= me redundancy group? Is it that all PEs in the same EVPN instance will impo= rt the routes? Or is it that different redundancy groups will have differen= t EVPN instances? I assume it's latter (since we need one IRB interface for= each redundancy group?). The withdrawal of the Ethernet Segment route serves as an indication to the backup S-PE to go active (i.e. act as a backup DF), and activate its pseudowires to the Access PE. The withdrawal of the Ethernet A-D route triggers a "mass withdraw" on the remote PEs: these PEs adjust their next-hop associated with the prefixes that were originally advertised by the failed PE to point to the "backup path" per [RFC7432]. Can you elaborate the procedure for the PEs to adjust their next-hop? I don't see reference to draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws. Is that used at all? Thanks. Jeffrey From nobody Wed Nov 4 18:16:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50ADD1A88B8 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:16:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 088E42Jdro-l for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E1611A6FEC for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:16:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3433; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446689778; x=1447899378; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=FZurY+eFJMwcxZjRWxVnWER9UnREb6WwPmQT1NPQ3KI=; b=l7NKtdJhTY9w5iZhqVkwYVfOYkzV1CERK/bSg7KRrtjkylwoTWu7qz3L PES1vRf/xjNtNlLE9I8i2LMm/P2Sut57DpLd+gD2J7evoytMtESXps7JC cfwpK32XFYyOMhIcEZxRFlM8f/ueorYjf/l871XBIPJRbmTKr0AusqHe5 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AZAgDPujpW/4sNJK1egzuBQga9cQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?V6GEgKBQTgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDYBAQMBeRACAQhGMiUBAQQBDQUfiAcIwggBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGotShCE4hF8BBIdBhhN5h3sBjSKBWoQ/licBHwEBQ?= =?us-ascii?q?oQEcoQtgQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,245,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="204632583" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2015 02:16:17 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (xch-rtp-001.cisco.com [64.101.220.141]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA52GHJv011380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:16:17 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (64.101.220.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:16:16 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:16:16 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "Samer Salam (ssalam)" , "Dennis Cai (dcai)" Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn-multihoming Thread-Index: AdEXSXpVw5tH5HzuSpK/KH0bbWEPVgAk3B2A Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:16:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.155.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] Questions on draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn-multihoming X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:16:20 -0000 Hi Jeffrey, On 11/5/15, 7:19 AM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" wrote: >Hi, > >I have a few questions: > > On the S-PEs, the pseudowires from the Access PEs are terminated onto > VRFs, such that all pseudowires within a given redundancy set > terminate on a single IP endpoint on the S-PEs. To achieve this, the > S-PEs in a given Redundancy Group are configured with the same > Anycast IP and MAC addresses on the virtual (sub)interface > corresponding to the VRF termination point. > >Is the virtual interface (like) an IRB interface? No IRB interface in this case. This is the virtual interface/sub-interface address. > > Since the S-PEs are running in EVPN single-active redundancy mode, > the S-PEs would advertise an Ethernet AD route per vES with the > single-active flag set per [RFC7432]. Since only the DF S-PE has its > access pseudowire in Active state, only that device would establish > an eBGP session with the CE and receive control and data traffic. > >Will the IRB/virtual interface on a non-DF PE be up? I assume it is - >even though the PW is not active. Would the non-DF PE keeps trying to >establish the eBGP session with the CE? Would that cause issue to the >session between CE and the DF PE? The backup PW will be in stand-by mode (not up) and thus there won=B9t be a eBGP session established between non-DF and the CE. Only when the non-DF becomes DF, then eBGP session gets established. > > The > DF S-PE advertises host prefixes that it receives, from the CE over > the eBGP session, to other PEs in the EVI using EVPN route type-5, > with the proper ESI set. Remote PEs learn the host prefixes and > associate them with the ESI, using the advertising PE as the next-hop > for forwarding. > >Would he DF S-PE advertise other prefixes received on the eBGP session? I >assume so but the text only says host prefixes. That=B9s Correct. There will be other prefixes. We=B9ll take care of it in = the next rev. > > Other S-PEs in the same Redundancy Group as the advertising PE will > receive the same EVPN route type-5 advertisement, and will recognize > the associated ESI as a locally attached vES. > >What is the RT that limits the routes to be imported only the PEs in the >same redundancy group? Is it that all PEs in the same EVPN instance will >import the routes? Or is it that different redundancy groups will have >different EVPN instances? I assume it's latter (since we need one IRB >interface for each redundancy group?). The RT will be the RT associated with the vES/ES. > > The withdrawal of the Ethernet > Segment route serves as an indication to the backup S-PE to go active > (i.e. act as a backup DF), and activate its pseudowires to the Access > PE. The withdrawal of the Ethernet A-D route triggers a "mass > withdraw" on the remote PEs: these PEs adjust their next-hop > associated with the prefixes that were originally advertised by the > failed PE to point to the "backup path" per [RFC7432]. > >Can you elaborate the procedure for the PEs to adjust their next-hop? Please refer to sections 8.4 and 14.1.1. > >I don't see reference to draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws. Is that used at all? Evpn-vpws is not used but it can be used to reduce the PW provisioning to only single-side. Cheers, Ali > >Thanks. >Jeffrey From nobody Wed Nov 4 18:32:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2A31B37E8 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:32:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xy6OT2tAhgoW for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0752.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:752]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1D5F1B2F70 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1714.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:31:58 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:31:58 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , "Samer Salam (ssalam)" , "Dennis Cai (dcai)" Thread-Topic: Questions on draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn-multihoming Thread-Index: AdEXSXpVw5tH5HzuSpK/KH0bbWEPVgAk3B2AABr8GRA= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:31:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB1714; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1714; H:BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Nov 2015 02:31:58.5509 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB1714 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] Questions on draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn-multihoming X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:32:06 -0000 Hi Ali, > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:16 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Samer Salam (ssalam) > ; Dennis Cai (dcai) > Cc: bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Questions on draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn-multihoming >=20 >=20 > Hi Jeffrey, >=20 >=20 > On 11/5/15, 7:19 AM, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" wrote= : >=20 > >Hi, > > > >I have a few questions: > > > > On the S-PEs, the pseudowires from the Access PEs are terminated onto > > VRFs, such that all pseudowires within a given redundancy set > > terminate on a single IP endpoint on the S-PEs. To achieve this, the > > S-PEs in a given Redundancy Group are configured with the same > > Anycast IP and MAC addresses on the virtual (sub)interface > > corresponding to the VRF termination point. > > > >Is the virtual interface (like) an IRB interface? >=20 > No IRB interface in this case. This is the virtual interface/sub-interfac= e > address. >=20 > > > > Since the S-PEs are running in EVPN single-active redundancy mode, > > the S-PEs would advertise an Ethernet AD route per vES with the > > single-active flag set per [RFC7432]. Since only the DF S-PE has its > > access pseudowire in Active state, only that device would establish > > an eBGP session with the CE and receive control and data traffic. > > > >Will the IRB/virtual interface on a non-DF PE be up? I assume it is - > >even though the PW is not active. Would the non-DF PE keeps trying to > >establish the eBGP session with the CE? Would that cause issue to the > >session between CE and the DF PE? >=20 > The backup PW will be in stand-by mode (not up) and thus there won=B9t be= a > eBGP session established between non-DF and the CE. Only when the non-DF > becomes DF, then eBGP session gets established. Whether it is an IRB interface or not, is the interface considered up (at l= ayer 3) when the PW is in the stand-by mode? I understand that the EBGP session won't be established, but will the stand= by PE try to establish it? Would that attempt cause trouble to the establis= hed session (assuming the CE will get messages from the standby PE via the = primary PE)? >=20 > > > > The > > DF S-PE advertises host prefixes that it receives, from the CE over > > the eBGP session, to other PEs in the EVI using EVPN route type-5, > > with the proper ESI set. Remote PEs learn the host prefixes and > > associate them with the ESI, using the advertising PE as the next-hop > > for forwarding. > > > >Would he DF S-PE advertise other prefixes received on the eBGP session? = I > >assume so but the text only says host prefixes. >=20 > That=B9s Correct. There will be other prefixes. We=B9ll take care of it i= n the > next rev. >=20 > > > > Other S-PEs in the same Redundancy Group as the advertising PE will > > receive the same EVPN route type-5 advertisement, and will recognize > > the associated ESI as a locally attached vES. > > > >What is the RT that limits the routes to be imported only the PEs in the > >same redundancy group? Is it that all PEs in the same EVPN instance will > >import the routes? Or is it that different redundancy groups will have > >different EVPN instances? I assume it's latter (since we need one IRB > >interface for each redundancy group?). >=20 > The RT will be the RT associated with the vES/ES. Will the vES/ES belong to a single EVPN instance only? >=20 > > > > The withdrawal of the Ethernet > > Segment route serves as an indication to the backup S-PE to go active > > (i.e. act as a backup DF), and activate its pseudowires to the Access > > PE. The withdrawal of the Ethernet A-D route triggers a "mass > > withdraw" on the remote PEs: these PEs adjust their next-hop > > associated with the prefixes that were originally advertised by the > > failed PE to point to the "backup path" per [RFC7432]. > > > >Can you elaborate the procedure for the PEs to adjust their next-hop? >=20 > Please refer to sections 8.4 and 14.1.1. Part of my confusion came from the (wrong impression) that EVPN procedure i= s also used between the APE and SPE (for vpws). Now that it is not the case= , would the same concept in this draft apply even if the CE is connected vi= a regular ACs? Thanks. Jeffrey >=20 > > > >I don't see reference to draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws. Is that used at all? >=20 > Evpn-vpws is not used but it can be used to reduce the PW provisioning to > only single-side. >=20 > Cheers, > Ali >=20 > > > >Thanks. > >Jeffrey From nobody Wed Nov 4 18:33:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E2A1B3909 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:33:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TKI0wDMu81YC for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D87991B38F7 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:33:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7707; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446690821; x=1447900421; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=306SQiz7XvPRYtsmOmIZUOfOIHSbpEqg76m2+NNccZ4=; b=YDEXdhhf0KHDSsjb7JcyHfcqvP9nbrJzt2WJdJ8vuxcMKHkd6DwCJyLj TbaF/wKRfnPYSOq6dHrY+7eBG0B5ODe2w0bFPENjjRnyu7iB8V0aOCNYe VPG/nDap0gINxQZsfE9ZBUJMPej5wPUTC1TqMJhVZSBQzTJz5gunQ+8PA c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D8AQBrvzpW/5RdJa1egm5NgUIGvXYBDYFehhICgUE4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEBBHkQAgEIEQMBAigHMhQJCAEBBA4FiC7CAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARiLUoR7hD0FjVSIdAGNIoFah2SPEYNxAR8BAUKEBHKEGIEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,245,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="205203328" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 02:33:40 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (xch-rtp-001.cisco.com [64.101.220.141]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA52XeEO024106 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:33:40 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (64.101.220.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:33:39 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:33:39 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: Comments on "draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00" Thread-Index: AdEMpjj259K5iE8ETHms059lGH4czQLOR7qA Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:33:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.155.99] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D260ED5D15F560sajassiciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] Comments on "draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00" X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:33:44 -0000 --_000_D260ED5D15F560sajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Weiguo, From: Haoweiguo > Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 2:17 AM To: Cisco Employee > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Comments on "draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00" Hi Ali, I have read through the draft, i think the procedures is fine for IGMP/MLD = proxy. However, this draft doesn't consider multicast router scenario, bett= er to be added. Scenario 1: An EVPN PE acts as multicast router and runs PIM protocol with the= outside multicast routers. Scenario 2: An EVPN PE connects to a multicast router on port1, no IGMP receiv= er on the port. The PE sends IGMP/MLD to the multicast router. We have covered both scenarios. The first one is referred to as "distribute= d anycast router" In both scenarios, the EVPN PE should announce its role through the extende= d route type6 to indicate it connects to a multicast router or acts as mult= icast router itself. Other EVPN PEs having local multicast source should forward the multicast t= raffic to the PE announcing multicast router role, the PE announcing multic= ast router role should not be pruned for all multicast traffic. For the PE connecting to a multicast router, it should translate EVPN rout= e type-6 message to IGMP/MLD message, it's already described in your draft.= For the PE acting as multicast router, it should translate EVPN route type= -6 message to PIM protocol, this part has not been covered in your draft, b= etter to be added. Correct, the mcast traffic treatment for inter-subnet is not described yet = but we'll mention it in the next rev. Cheers, Ali Thanks, weiguo --_000_D260ED5D15F560sajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <5BA65315B20A5846807309E457FBD30A@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Weiguo,


From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 at= 2:17 AM
To: Cisco Employee <sajassi@cisco.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: Comments on "draft-sa= jassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00"

Hi Ali,

I have read through the draft, i think= the procedures is fine for IGMP/MLD proxy. However, this draft doesn't con= sider multicast router scenario, better to be added.

Scenario 1:

      &n= bsp;  An EVPN PE acts as multicast router and runs PIM protocol with t= he outside multicast routers.

Scenario 2:

      &n= bsp;  An EVPN PE connects to a multicast router on port1, no IGMP rece= iver on the port.  The PE sends IGMP/MLD to the multicast router.=

 
We have cove= red both scenarios. The first one is referred to as “distributed= anycast router"

In both scenarios, the EVPN= PE should announce its role through the extended route type6 to indicate i= t connects to a multicast router or acts as multicast router itself.
Other EVPN PEs having local multicast source should forward the multic= ast traffic to the PE announcing multicast router role, the PE announcing m= ulticast router role should not be pruned for all multicast traffic.

For the PE connecting to a multicast router, it s= hould translate  EVPN route type-6 message to IGMP/MLD message, it's a= lready described in your draft. For the PE acting as multicast router, it should translate= EVPN route type-6 message to PIM protocol, this part has not been covered = in your draft, better to be added.

Correct, the mcast traffic treatment for inter= -subnet is not described yet but we’ll mention it in the next rev.

Cheers,
Ali

 

Thanks,

weiguo

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nobody Wed Nov 4 21:42:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA8C1B39EC for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CPyXHDZ-405h for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A32C1B39DD for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 88A35CAD19391; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:42:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tA55gNSg029375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:42:23 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:42:23 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRF4pdNna3jq/wVE+wDWaW+FF50Z6M6TvAgACHSAA= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:42:22 +0000 Message-ID: <9E9C85C2-961C-4B53-BF7A-27347B9CFA61@alcatel-lucent.com> References: In-Reply-To: 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To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRF4pdNna3jq/wVE+wDWaW+FF50Z6M6TvAgACHSAD//3oN0A== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:44:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9E9C85C2-961C-4B53-BF7A-27347B9CFA61@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <9E9C85C2-961C-4B53-BF7A-27347B9CFA61@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB1716; 5:S+zCQQq4CaUPuPdVL+T0jh7TCVi+26uDk8w0q+C3xPfayPkafKuEd7B1lgelZLDdj40E8r1/mNuLQdn9LSc84rtboSvDVlsV1tvn3d3oN3PUUOfIVMWxeHr8vLCKEC72qbNxHQR/vyNazGdGtT+oyQ==; 24:a66DUJ9UvKOWBZX768lvcY5nh97sS2fyuG4GvlP+ggEZDngNbHcGe7fMtn5I5Z0Cr7uTZMFK+k7nXbE5KPf0CVD9b+D/OCMfB90WOOWZeWM=; 20:A/Y8bEDjblCt9P4zYibu7VCAK6gBYJa31R0W4Bzu4MqvNbnpfscexaOmo1CyAqsl4mcxo/cbvPG2Jw4G6+QnUg== 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for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:46:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U_JOIrs7RyJt for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E39CF1B3A00 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 32FEF37CB1FD3; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:46:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 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from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 055CE1B3A18 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:54:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fAaNNj6e1T3h for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBF051B3A1B for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDR53012; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 05:54:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:54:17 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:54:09 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" Thread-Topic: Comments on "draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00" Thread-Index: AdEMpjj259K5iE8ETHms059lGH4czQLOR7qA//9Y6hU= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:54:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.185.251] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D61EAnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.563AEF12.004A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 02f3d49b0f7eccda03ba7b1836e576e0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] Comments on "draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00" X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 05:54:31 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D61EAnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ali, Thanks for your reply. I think the 'distributd anycast multicast router' ma= y not satisfy my requirements. In my discriptions, one multicast router is = attached behind a EVPN PE or the multicast router also acts as an EVPN PE a= t the same time, the multicat router is centralized deployed. In this scen= ario, one bit Flag as multicast router indicator is needed. The PE acting a= s multicast router or with multicast router behind should announce the rout= e type 6 message with the indicator flag marked. When other PEs with multic= ast source behind receives the message, when they inject local multicast t= raffic to EVPN network, they will always send the traffic to the multicast = router PE, the multicast traffic will never be pruned. If no this Flag, if = the multicast router PE has no local IGMP/MLG receivers, the multicast traf= fic from other PEs will never come to the multicast router PE. I think your whole solution is good, it's easy to add this multicast router= Flag bit in route type-6 TLV. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [sajassi@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:33 To: Haoweiguo Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: Comments on "draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00" Hi Weiguo, From: Haoweiguo > Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 2:17 AM To: Cisco Employee > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Comments on "draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00" Hi Ali, I have read through the draft, i think the procedures is fine for IGMP/MLD = proxy. However, this draft doesn't consider multicast router scenario, bett= er to be added. Scenario 1: An EVPN PE acts as multicast router and runs PIM protocol with the= outside multicast routers. Scenario 2: An EVPN PE connects to a multicast router on port1, no IGMP receiv= er on the port. The PE sends IGMP/MLD to the multicast router. We have covered both scenarios. The first one is referred to as =93distribu= ted anycast router" In both scenarios, the EVPN PE should announce its role through the extende= d route type6 to indicate it connects to a multicast router or acts as mult= icast router itself. Other EVPN PEs having local multicast source should forward the multicast t= raffic to the PE announcing multicast router role, the PE announcing multic= ast router role should not be pruned for all multicast traffic. For the PE connecting to a multicast router, it should translate EVPN rout= e type-6 message to IGMP/MLD message, it's already described in your draft.= For the PE acting as multicast router, it should translate EVPN route type= -6 message to PIM protocol, this part has not been covered in your draft, b= etter to be added. Correct, the mcast traffic treatment for inter-subnet is not described yet = but we=92ll mention it in the next rev. Cheers, Ali Thanks, weiguo --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D61EAnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ali,

Thanks for your reply. I think t= he 'distributd anycast multicast router' may not satisfy my requirements. I= n my discriptions, one multicast router is attached behind a EVPN PE or the= multicast router also acts as an EVPN PE at the same time,  the multicat router is centralized deployed.&nb= sp;In this scenario, one bit Flag as multicast router indicator is needed. = The = PE acting as multicast router or with multicast router behind should announce the route type 6 message with the indicator = flag marked. When other PEs with multicast source behind receives the messa= ge,  when they inject local multicast traffic to EVPN network, they wi= ll always send the traffic to the multicast router PE, the multicast traffic will never be pruned. If no this Flag, if= the multicast router PE has no local IGMP/MLG receivers, the multicast tra= ffic from other PEs will never come to the multicast router PE.

 

I think your whole solution is go= od, it's easy to add this multicast router Flag bit in route type-6 TLV.

 

Thanks,

weiguo
From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [sajassi@cisco= .com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:33
To: Haoweiguo
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Comments on "draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-prox= y-00"


Hi Weiguo,


From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com> Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 a= t 2:17 AM
To: Cisco Employee <sajassi@cisco.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Comments on "draft-s= ajassi-bess-evpn-igmp-mld-proxy-00"

Hi Ali,

I have read through the draft, i think= the procedures is fine for IGMP/MLD proxy. However, this draft doesn't con= sider multicast router scenario, better to be added.

Scenario 1:

      &n= bsp;  An EVPN PE acts as multicast router and runs PIM protocol with t= he outside multicast routers.

Scenario 2:

      &n= bsp;  An EVPN PE connects to a multicast router on port1, no IGMP rece= iver on the port.  The PE sends IGMP/MLD to the multicast router.=

 
We have cove= red both scenarios. The first one is referred to as =93distributed any= cast router"

In both scenarios, the EVPN= PE should announce its role through the extended route type6 to indicate i= t connects to a multicast router or acts as multicast router itself.
Other EVPN PEs having local multicast source should forward the multic= ast traffic to the PE announcing multicast router role, the PE announcing m= ulticast router role should not be pruned for all multicast traffic.

For the PE connecting to a multicast router, it s= hould translate  EVPN route type-6 message to IGMP/MLD message, it's a= lready described in your draft. For the PE acting as multicast router, it should translate= EVPN route type-6 message to PIM protocol, this part has not been covered = in your draft, better to be added.

Correct, the mcast traffic treatment for inter= -subnet is not described yet but we=92ll mention it in the next rev.=

Cheers,
Ali

 

Thanks,

weiguo

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D61EAnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 21:58:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6480B1B3A30 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MALFORMED_FREEMAIL=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5PL1JFhpotCl for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A60D1B3A28 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by pasz6 with SMTP id z6so79590744pas.2 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:58:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id:thread-topic :mime-version:content-type; bh=pPEe0CK/UBND0FliX5OGMhYDt8JpVl21TXAYGySuyQY=; b=UtJmPVmEaFC/lIi1oluxEiInZdJ/ak5lfaOfmUIk4Isx0UXqFWTzkdTuSNbBmERzTd 0FIcKA8qXDBR2kc1h43EWtcpStvozQHwlgKutoHdzHMVcy6pq6PmH/JEW6ZoxcorjwYy MhgpRCqcaR6UezCnwP7F5I6gtGkezo9H1POtV+FOPDay6WAK9VpWjGK5S+yASDru/xdX AbTRYNQksmJ5+vvFzPGsMklr+kwV6jeaQbxxU2/oEGnbcrj18FP+VNUEp7aGywpoCem9 hNX5zd1E3fDCUe230nOsj1PUJBYLDi6sI5BJmOMSMy3AzzxWUq/SAn3uSQSTXzhvdapk 3YCA== X-Received: by 10.68.193.165 with SMTP id hp5mr7131049pbc.20.1446703091001; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [135.244.112.85] (dhcp-26-243.meeting.ietf94.jp. [133.93.26.243]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id kw16sm5457466pab.34.2015.11.04.21.58.08 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:58:10 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 14:58:03 +0900 From: Wim Henderickx To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3529580289_1779388205" Archived-At: Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 05:58:12 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3529580289_1779388205 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit After clarification in the meeting I learned it is a requirement to select the same PE for upstream/downstream traffic. My question is how is this done? Or better which mechanisms are used to achieve this? --B_3529580289_1779388205 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
After clarification= in the meeting I learned it is a requirement to select the same PE for upst= ream/downstream traffic.
My question is how is this done? Or bette= r which mechanisms are used to achieve this?
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([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2015 06:44:48 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (xch-aln-013.cisco.com [173.36.7.23]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA56imD3027825 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:44:48 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:44:47 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:44:47 -0600 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRF4pdNna3jq/wVE+wDWaW+FF50Z6M6TvAgACHSAD//3oN0IAAhwKA//99nHA= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:44:47 +0000 Message-ID: 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<7221C98A-7398-426A-9137-4F03EC842AC0@alcatel-lucent.com> <6e2b2585b9af40ef98b10046e38e42ea@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6e2b2585b9af40ef98b10046e38e42ea@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_97F2B23DA9DF4E02A892EE14A33C5B1Balcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 08:17:18 -0000 --_000_97F2B23DA9DF4E02A892EE14A33C5B1Balcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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PSJjb2xvcjpibGFjayI+PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwv ZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9k aXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvc3Bhbj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_97F2B23DA9DF4E02A892EE14A33C5B1Balcatellucentcom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 06:14:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5E21A90A0 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:14:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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E=Sophos;i="5.20,252,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="205045860" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2015 14:14:14 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com (xch-rtp-005.cisco.com [64.101.220.145]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA6EEDnI011325 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Nov 2015 14:14:13 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:14:13 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:14:13 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: Wim Henderickx , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRGJ1pa0NWtCzMxU6133++X84SJg== Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 14:14:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.103.161] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D262E41315FD2Csajassiciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 14:14:16 -0000 --_000_D262E41315FD2Csajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wim, If you can tell me what part of the draft is not clear, I will explain it h= ere and if any further clarification in the draft needed, I will take care = of it. Cheers, Ali From: BESS > on behalf = of Wim Henderickx > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:58 PM To: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt After clarification in the meeting I learned it is a requirement to select = the same PE for upstream/downstream traffic. My question is how is this done? Or better which mechanisms are used to ach= ieve this? --_000_D262E41315FD2Csajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Wim,

If you can tell me what part of the draft is not clear, I will explain= it here and if any further clarification in the draft needed, I will take = care of it.

Cheers,
Ali

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Wim Henderi= ckx <wim.henderickx@gmail.co= m>
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 a= t 10:58 PM
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-= pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt

After clarification in the meeting I learned it is a requirement to se= lect the same PE for upstream/downstream traffic.
My question is how is this done? Or better which mechanisms are used t= o achieve this?
 --_000_D262E41315FD2Csajassiciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 06:46:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13ADC1A914C for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:46:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5O7A7PCOwbN1 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E57201A90FA for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:46:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=21460; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446821197; x=1448030797; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=Z1uBHJF76PJoTWz83o97Q0u+hBTER9/HHB1pX1PZjUc=; b=aRmPK6HGrHvfWNbPtfeUG6xx+Eka21fwiZrvT30+Vs124zjepyFd9G+/ pIA7cPQMe8PgfZ3nwTlqGYwrgwWZzxp9pfPGM9t4HKzyAbuyXebbhy9+4 jLKzVs1p/+/ihVn4Ji4u2QESqjEvwxq9/U0lZ5iZ1Xomri6gwjL9eYyPt U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D+AQD3vDxW/5xdJa1egm5NU28GviEBDYFgIYVvAoE1OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBAQICLV4BCBEDAQEBIQc5FAkKBAESiC4NwXQBAQEBAQEBAQIBAQEBAQEBARcEi1KEKVINCYQoBYgdhTeIdAGNJJxDAR8BAUKCEQUYgVZyAYQMgQcBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,252,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="205611421" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2015 14:46:36 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (xch-rtp-015.cisco.com [64.101.220.155]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA6EkaMZ000305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Nov 2015 14:46:36 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:46:35 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:46:35 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRGKHvsn7Nr7mXNE68X02/uRPdZA== Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 14:46:35 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.103.161] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D262E78015FD83sajassiciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 14:46:42 -0000 --_000_D262E78015FD83sajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wim, The draft currently assumes that all the S-PEs are EVPN PEs. However, the r= emote S-PEs really don't have to be EVPN PEs. They can be IP-VPN PEs and we= can use evpn-ipvpn-interop draft for the interoperability between the two = types. On the other hand, the S-PEs in the redundancy group have to be EVPN= PEs. Now, regarding using local edge PIC on the SPEs, it doesn't give you the sy= ch-up of prefixes for VRFs and ARP cache tables. We are talking about a sin= gle BGP session between the CE and S-PEs. And upon failure, we are talking = about non-stop forwarding with min. traffic disruption. -Ali From: BESS > on behalf = of "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 1:17 AM To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" >, "Je= ffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" >, "be= ss@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Jakob, thx this is clear. What I see is that the benefits of ESI and Mass withdraw indication are als= o solved based on implementation. By using PW/tunnel indications and local = Edge PIC on the SPE connected to the access network can enable the same beh= aviour with similar convergence results. From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" > Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 15:44 To: Wim Henderickx >, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt The point is that the CE does not realize that it is multihomed. The access node implements the multihoming, but the CE has only one BGP ses= sion and one interface. The APE-SPE connections is an ethernet with the same ESI towards SPE1 and S= PE2 The SPEs talk EVPN, using route type 5 to implement an L3VPN service. This provides the ESI and mass withdrawal that RFC4364 routes do not. --Jakob From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 9:46 PM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >= ; bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt IF you do Edge-PIC this is optional afais. From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" > Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 14:44 To: Wim Henderickx >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt My understanding is that an IP-VPN PE would not be able take advantage of "= mass-withdraw"? From: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:42 PM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >= ; bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Is the draft assuming also IP-VPN in the core or only EVPN? I don't see a reason for excluding one or another From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" > Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 14:40 To: Wim Henderickx >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt I did not get that either until Ali confirmed that in the meeting. I had thought that SPEs were running regular L3VPN (not EVPN) but the ones = that a CE multi-home to would also use EVPN procedures. Now it looks like t= here is no "regular" L3VPN - everything is EVPN. Jeffrey From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:25 PM To: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Maybe good to clarify in this draft which nodes are involved in EVPN from t= he drawing on p3 in https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-be= ss-11.pdf? Did I understood correctly in the meeting that this is required between all= SPE(s), if so why? --_000_D262E78015FD83sajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wim,  
The draft currently assumes that all the S-PEs are EVPN PEs. However, = the remote S-PEs really don’t have to be EVPN PEs. They can be IP-VPN= PEs and we can use evpn-ipvpn-interop draft for the interoperability betwe= en the two types. On the other hand, the S-PEs in the redundancy group have to be EVPN PEs. 

Now, regarding using local edge PIC on the SPEs, it doesn’t give= you the sych-up of prefixes for VRFs and ARP cache tables. We are talking = about a single BGP session between the CE and S-PEs. And upon failure, we a= re talking about non-stop forwarding with min. traffic disruption. 

-Ali

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Hende= rickx, Wim (Wim)" <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2015 at= 1:17 AM
To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)"= ; <jheitz@cisco.com>, "J= effrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzha= ng@juniper.net>, "bess@ietf.or= g" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-b= ess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

Jakob, thx this is clear.
What I see is that the benefits of ESI and Mass withdraw indication ar= e also solved based on implementation. By using PW/tunnel indications and l= ocal Edge PIC on the SPE connected to the access network can enable the sam= e behaviour with similar convergence results.


From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)&qu= ot; <jheitz@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 1= 5:44
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com<= /a>>, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evp= n-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

The point is that the CE does not real= ize that it is multihomed.

The access node implements the multiho= ming, but the CE has only one BGP session and one interface.

The APE-SPE connections is an ethernet= with the same ESI towards SPE1 and SPE2

The SPEs talk EVPN, using route type 5= to implement an L3VPN service.

This provides the ESI and mass withdra= wal that RFC4364 routes do not.

 

--Jakob

 

From: BESS [m= ailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 9:46 PM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.tx= t

 

IF you do Edge-PIC this is optional afais.

 

From: = "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 14:44
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt<= /o:p>

 

My understanding is that an IP-VPN = PE would not be able take advantage of “mass-withdraw”?<= span style=3D"color:black">

 <= /span>

From: Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) [mailto:wim.henderic= kx@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:42 PM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

 =

Is the draft assuming also IP-VPN in the cor= e or only EVPN?

I don’t see a reason for excluding one= or another

 

From: = "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 14:40
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

 

I did not get that either until Ali= confirmed that in the meeting.

 

I had thought that SPEs were runnin= g regular L3VPN (not EVPN) but the ones that a CE multi-home to would also = use EVPN procedures. Now it looks like there is no “regular” L3VPN – everything is EVPN.=

 

Jeffrey

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:25 PM
To: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

 =

Maybe good to clarify in this draft which no= des are involved in EVPN from the drawing on p3 in https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-bess-11.pdf?

Did I understood correctly in the meeting th= at this is required between all SPE(s), if so why?

 

 --_000_D262E78015FD83sajassiciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 07:44:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2395F1ACC83 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:44:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y8ovZduLMEQi for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:43:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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A0D2AQCcPj1W/5JdJa1egm5NU28GviIBDYFhIYVvAoE1OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBAQICLVwCAQgRAwEBASEHBzIUCQgCBAESiC4NwRQBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBItShClSDQmEKAWIHY4rAY0knEMBHwEBQoIRBRiBVnIBhAyBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,254,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="48413755" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Nov 2015 00:02:03 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA7021FE029970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 7 Nov 2015 00:02:02 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 19:02:01 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 19:02:01 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRGKHvsn7Nr7mXNE68X02/uRPdZJ6PIpOAgAFlIQA= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 00:02:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.86.207] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D2636E72160084sajassiciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 00:02:09 -0000 --_000_D2636E72160084sajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We=92ll do. From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" > Date: Friday, November 6, 2015 at 8:43 AM To: Cisco Employee >, "Jakob He= itz (jheitz)" >, "Jeffrey (Zhaohu= i) Zhang" >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Ali, ok I see the ARP cache sync and customer route sync is a benefit. Mayb= e we should make this clearer in the draft. From: Ali Sajassi > Date: Friday 6 November 2015 at 15:46 To: Wim Henderickx >, "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" >, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Wim, The draft currently assumes that all the S-PEs are EVPN PEs. However, the r= emote S-PEs really don=92t have to be EVPN PEs. They can be IP-VPN PEs and = we can use evpn-ipvpn-interop draft for the interoperability between the tw= o types. On the other hand, the S-PEs in the redundancy group have to be EV= PN PEs. Now, regarding using local edge PIC on the SPEs, it doesn=92t give you the = sych-up of prefixes for VRFs and ARP cache tables. We are talking about a s= ingle BGP session between the CE and S-PEs. And upon failure, we are talkin= g about non-stop forwarding with min. traffic disruption. -Ali From: BESS > on behalf = of "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 1:17 AM To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" >, "Je= ffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" >, "be= ss@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Jakob, thx this is clear. What I see is that the benefits of ESI and Mass withdraw indication are als= o solved based on implementation. By using PW/tunnel indications and local = Edge PIC on the SPE connected to the access network can enable the same beh= aviour with similar convergence results. From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" > Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 15:44 To: Wim Henderickx >, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt The point is that the CE does not realize that it is multihomed. The access node implements the multihoming, but the CE has only one BGP ses= sion and one interface. The APE-SPE connections is an ethernet with the same ESI towards SPE1 and S= PE2 The SPEs talk EVPN, using route type 5 to implement an L3VPN service. This provides the ESI and mass withdrawal that RFC4364 routes do not. --Jakob From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 9:46 PM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >= ; bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt IF you do Edge-PIC this is optional afais. From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" > Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 14:44 To: Wim Henderickx >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt My understanding is that an IP-VPN PE would not be able take advantage of = =93mass-withdraw=94? From: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:42 PM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >= ; bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Is the draft assuming also IP-VPN in the core or only EVPN? I don=92t see a reason for excluding one or another From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" > Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 14:40 To: Wim Henderickx >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt I did not get that either until Ali confirmed that in the meeting. I had thought that SPEs were running regular L3VPN (not EVPN) but the ones = that a CE multi-home to would also use EVPN procedures. Now it looks like t= here is no =93regular=94 L3VPN =96 everything is EVPN. Jeffrey From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:25 PM To: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt Maybe good to clarify in this draft which nodes are involved in EVPN from t= he drawing on p3 in https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-be= ss-11.pdf? Did I understood correctly in the meeting that this is required between all= SPE(s), if so why? --_000_D2636E72160084sajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <704EB74F67ACB6459525A64C6C2791FE@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We=92ll do.

From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)&q= uot; <wim.henderick= x@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Friday, November 6, 2015 at 8= :43 AM
To: Cisco Employee <sajassi@cisco.com>, "Jakob Heitz (jhei= tz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>,= "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-b= ess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

Ali, ok I see the ARP cache sync and customer route sync is a benefit.= Maybe we should make this clearer in the draft.

From: Ali Sajassi <sajassi@cisco.com>
Date: Friday 6 November 2015 at 15:= 46
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com<= /a>>, "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-b= ess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt


Wim,  
The draft currently assumes that all the S-PEs are EVPN PEs. However, = the remote S-PEs really don=92t have to be EVPN PEs. They can be IP-VPN PEs= and we can use evpn-ipvpn-interop draft for the interoperability between t= he two types. On the other hand, the S-PEs in the redundancy group have to be EVPN PEs. 

Now, regarding using local edge PIC on the SPEs, it doesn=92t give you= the sych-up of prefixes for VRFs and ARP cache tables. We are talking abou= t a single BGP session between the CE and S-PEs. And upon failure, we are t= alking about non-stop forwarding with min. traffic disruption. 

-Ali

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Hende= rickx, Wim (Wim)" <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2015 at= 1:17 AM
To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)"= ; <jheitz@cisco.com>, "J= effrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzha= ng@juniper.net>, "bess@ietf.or= g" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-b= ess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

Jakob, thx this is clear.
What I see is that the benefits of ESI and Mass withdraw indication ar= e also solved based on implementation. By using PW/tunnel indications and l= ocal Edge PIC on the SPE connected to the access network can enable the sam= e behaviour with similar convergence results.


From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)&qu= ot; <jheitz@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 1= 5:44
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com<= /a>>, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evp= n-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

The point is that the CE does not real= ize that it is multihomed.

The access node implements the multiho= ming, but the CE has only one BGP session and one interface.

The APE-SPE connections is an ethernet= with the same ESI towards SPE1 and SPE2

The SPEs talk EVPN, using route type 5= to implement an L3VPN service.

This provides the ESI and mass withdra= wal that RFC4364 routes do not.

 

--Jakob

 

From: BESS [m= ailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 9:46 PM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.tx= t

 

IF you do Edge-PIC this is optional afais.

 

From: = "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 14:44
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt<= /o:p>

 

My understanding is that an IP-VPN = PE would not be able take advantage of =93mass-withdraw=94?

 <= /span>

From: Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) [mailto:wim.henderic= kx@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:42 PM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

 =

Is the draft assuming also IP-VPN in the cor= e or only EVPN?

I don=92t see a reason for excluding one or = another

 

From: = "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
Date: Thursday 5 November 2015 at 14:40
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

 

I did not get that either until Ali= confirmed that in the meeting.

 

I had thought that SPEs were runnin= g regular L3VPN (not EVPN) but the ones that a CE multi-home to would also = use EVPN procedures. Now it looks like there is no =93regular=94 L3VPN =96 everything is EVPN.

 

Jeffrey

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:25 PM
To: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-evpn-l3vpn- multihoming-00.txt

 =

Maybe good to clarify in this draft which no= des are involved in EVPN from the drawing on p3 in https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-bess-11.pdf?

Did I understood correctly in the meeting th= at this is required between all SPE(s), if so why?

 

 --_000_D2636E72160084sajassiciscocom_-- From nobody Sat Nov 7 02:10:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E931AC3E9 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 02:10:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MALFORMED_FREEMAIL=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6mjmLbhYWoLr for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 02:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x232.google.com (mail-wm0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFE1B1A906D for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 02:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by wmnn186 with SMTP id n186so60294760wmn.1 for ; Sat, 07 Nov 2015 02:10:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id:thread-topic:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type; bh=5Zv+F7HoEg/3JXcXzW+IT2ALgZHxeofhIiA21Oj32+0=; b=tOJL9jPca5FvEwwTe+rJRVzQm31SvIRGCZuqHz8ajqqa5mfUgoBD/cui4B0FnPeQeO vI4St8IxAwFKAeEQaTCqbIeL7KJvU25BYKfed8Jlh+embMxfKQ9PDg0KQmtFuvsGsQyG RQ23NvgjbQP6pmCtnK++wW7Z/LXID/YZMljlZy6gm4uZW51BUoEbXVcpnyG2ivpMrlUz nASSZqPTN+QKu+swIPVEDWHlJT8jeQnSMP1QBQVGkvIWCJlpQPl1bBi4V4iNYJ+vKD5E Zs4N8z8VNBdQ0E71iqScKSuShEz8m28tNmp/GUzd3pFZsmTvJ/rTpT2mDuDZv53+n4Q1 k1dQ== X-Received: by 10.28.137.82 with SMTP id l79mr15617096wmd.95.1446891009146; Sat, 07 Nov 2015 02:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [135.244.192.51] (94-227-76-79.access.telenet.be. [94.227.76.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j4sm3218941wmg.18.2015.11.07.02.10.07 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Nov 2015 02:10:08 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 11:10:06 +0100 From: Wim Henderickx To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , "bess@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3529739407_265376338" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 10:10:13 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3529739407_265376338 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable First if this is a requirement it should be listed in section 2. For known unicast traffic the document describes a upstream hash function i= n section 4.2.1. For BUM traffic It describes the SHG/DF procedures but there is no guarante= e described that the downstream DF is similar to the upstream hash or IGP di= stance in case of unequal cost. As such I don=E2=80=99t see how for BUM traffic th= e consistency between upstream and downstream is guaranteed? (section 4.2.2.= ) From: Ali Sajassi Date: Friday 6 November 2015 at 15:14 To: Wim Henderickx , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt Hi Wim, If you can tell me what part of the draft is not clear, I will explain it h= ere and if any further clarification in the draft needed, I will take care o= f it. Cheers, Ali From: BESS on behalf of Wim Henderickx Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:58 PM To: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt After clarification in the meeting I learned it is a requirement to select = the same PE for upstream/downstream traffic. My question is how is this done? Or better which mechanisms are used to ach= ieve this? --B_3529739407_265376338 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
First if this is a  = ;requirement it should be listed in section 2.

For = known unicast traffic the document describes a upstream hash function in sec= tion 4.2.1.
For BUM traffic It describes the SHG/DF procedures but= there is no guarantee described that the downstream DF is similar to the up= stream hash or IGP distance in case of unequal cost. As such I don’t s= ee how for BUM traffic the consistency between upstream and downstream is gu= aranteed? (section 4.2.2.)
<= /div>

From: Ali Saja= ssi <sajassi@cisco.com>
Date: Friday 6 November 2015 at 15:14
= To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@gmail.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess= @ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [be= ss] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt

Hi Wim,

<= div>If you can tell me what part of the draft is not clear, I will explain i= t here and if any further clarification in the draft needed, I will take car= e of it.

Cheers,
Ali

=
From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Wim Henderickx= <wim.henderickx@gmail.com&= gt;
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 20= 15 at 10:58 PM
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: [bess] dra= ft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt

=
After clarification in the meeting = I learned it is a requirement to select the same PE for upstream/downstream = traffic.
My question is how is this done? Or better which mechanis= ms are used to achieve this?
 --B_3529739407_265376338-- From nobody Sun Nov 8 01:06:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D891ACE11 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 01:06:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUg1R1S0Au1z for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 01:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A46641ACE10 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 01:06:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8165; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446973595; x=1448183195; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=g+C9M6kMeGHcyb6+ao+GA+Jjt7EIgN6g50t6ahUpcjQ=; b=OLRfaXh9euR5BXI1fcqAgR+pwrG9LiqygyJPsdDmxSizczZ5Sf73Lpvm gB16z+As+zGtBWxPpmEzGHEPMTCZ3Wa7Wx2gItPPB4ohLiRDA63iRLioM BwXOOfoM9pe1eeEmSCxj1CjionxWTm2uIiq0itXxOEITTbFKiulE99DeI g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D1AQBYDz9W/4kNJK1egm5NgUIGviYBDYFhhhACgRg4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEBBIEJAgEIEQMBAigHIREUCQgCBAESiBkDErxHDYQ/AQEBAQEBAQMBAQEBAQEdi1KCU4IohD4FjVSIdAGLMYF1lHKHUgEfAQFCghAegVZyhF+BBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,261,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="44877862" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Nov 2015 09:06:34 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-002.cisco.com (xch-rtp-002.cisco.com [64.101.220.142]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA896Wcj031357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 8 Nov 2015 09:06:33 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-002.cisco.com (64.101.220.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 04:06:32 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 04:06:32 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: Wim Henderickx , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRGJ1pa0NWtCzMxU6133++X84SJp6Qq4oAgAIXboA= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 09:06:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.120.58] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D26533AD16062Asajassiciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:06:37 -0000 --_000_D26533AD16062Asajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is not a hard requirement. I will add it as a soft requirement (e.g., ei= ther SHOULD or MAY) and it would only be for known unicast traffic - i.e., = upstream and downstream traffic per VNI can be guaranteed to go through the= same PE for known unicast if the operator chooses so. Cheers, Ali From: Wim Henderickx > Date: Saturday, November 7, 2015 at 7:10 PM To: Cisco Employee >, "bess@iet= f.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt First if this is a requirement it should be listed in section 2. For known unicast traffic the document describes a upstream hash function i= n section 4.2.1. For BUM traffic It describes the SHG/DF procedures but there is no guarante= e described that the downstream DF is similar to the upstream hash or IGP d= istance in case of unequal cost. As such I don't see how for BUM traffic th= e consistency between upstream and downstream is guaranteed? (section 4.2.2= .) From: Ali Sajassi > Date: Friday 6 November 2015 at 15:14 To: Wim Henderickx >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt Hi Wim, If you can tell me what part of the draft is not clear, I will explain it h= ere and if any further clarification in the draft needed, I will take care = of it. Cheers, Ali From: BESS > on behalf = of Wim Henderickx > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:58 PM To: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt After clarification in the meeting I learned it is a requirement to select = the same PE for upstream/downstream traffic. My question is how is this done? Or better which mechanisms are used to ach= ieve this? --_000_D26533AD16062Asajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <604936C67227754E9D8B6FC7BE05148C@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It is not a hard requirement. I will add it as a soft requirement (e.g= ., either SHOULD or MAY) and it would only be for known unicast traffic - i= .e., upstream and downstream traffic per VNI can be guaranteed to go throug= h the same PE for known unicast if the operator chooses so.

Cheers,
Ali

From: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, November 7, 2015 at= 7:10 PM
To: Cisco Employee <sajassi@cisco.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-b= ess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt

First if this is a  requirement it should be listed in section 2.=

For known unicast traffic the document describes a upstream hash funct= ion in section 4.2.1.
For BUM traffic It describes the SHG/DF procedures but there is no gua= rantee described that the downstream DF is similar to the upstream hash or = IGP distance in case of unequal cost. As such I don’t see how for BUM= traffic the consistency between upstream and downstream is guaranteed? (section 4.2.2.)

From: Ali Sajassi <sajassi@cisco.com>
Date: Friday 6 November 2015 at 15:= 14
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@gmail.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-b= ess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt


Hi Wim,

If you can tell me what part of the draft is not clear, I will explain= it here and if any further clarification in the draft needed, I will take = care of it.

Cheers,
Ali

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Wim Henderi= ckx <wim.henderickx@gmail.co= m>
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 a= t 10:58 PM
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-= pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt

After clarification in the meeting I learned it is a requirement to se= lect the same PE for upstream/downstream traffic.
My question is how is this done? Or better which mechanisms are used t= o achieve this?
 --_000_D26533AD16062Asajassiciscocom_-- From nobody Sun Nov 8 02:18:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B391A8A1F for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:18:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MALFORMED_FREEMAIL=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MFJk5MQEXRAg for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D90631A8A1C for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 02:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by wmww144 with SMTP id w144so56216253wmw.1 for ; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 02:18:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id:thread-topic:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type; bh=gdEJX6fDWYkT7diKU29VdO3+8FHMksSu/dfS6k9td3g=; b=Ep5g6jjEqbLseiqWtewbwr6IHvGgYHiA3WncMmN1uexEC9nM6B2WpSB6yYqRgTt3I7 3ncp9JVSV5PWVXdAv76yAHTD1XfcDuAa6N178MgnQewA7TBy2FabiARFv0tGCJlBXyc6 2Ss1rNRsm0IWsUUO3CiqCUggaNR1c0/O+80+F44Ly0cX/IjhoprcceopefMgLAqGHfom vS0h+ZfsfEOUlm1pCExC3YWsKFvGtn1nR96vGZtx4D5yU74NHPxPSLrBRCaM5KtCke3+ ujeasXMP8fY7aVz2NOy8L3HvAJwFzbULP/suyitqRf+Whwedb/L/5WiWNS7oeLNC+CiX RZMw== X-Received: by 10.28.93.145 with SMTP id r139mr19128987wmb.20.1446977925488; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 02:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [135.244.192.61] (94-227-76-79.access.telenet.be. [94.227.76.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id he3sm9271318wjc.48.2015.11.08.02.18.44 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Nov 2015 02:18:44 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 11:18:42 +0100 From: Wim Henderickx To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , "bess@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3529826324_1016515943" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 10:18:49 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3529826324_1016515943 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable How will you do QoS guarantees if the BUM traffic is not accommodated in th= is scheme ? From: Ali Sajassi Date: Sunday 8 November 2015 at 10:06 To: Wim Henderickx , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt It is not a hard requirement. I will add it as a soft requirement (e.g., ei= ther SHOULD or MAY) and it would only be for known unicast traffic - i.e., u= pstream and downstream traffic per VNI can be guaranteed to go through the s= ame PE for known unicast if the operator chooses so. Cheers, Ali From: Wim Henderickx Date: Saturday, November 7, 2015 at 7:10 PM To: Cisco Employee , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt First if this is a requirement it should be listed in section 2. For known unicast traffic the document describes a upstream hash function i= n section 4.2.1. For BUM traffic It describes the SHG/DF procedures but there is no guarante= e described that the downstream DF is similar to the upstream hash or IGP di= stance in case of unequal cost. As such I don=E2=80=99t see how for BUM traffic th= e consistency between upstream and downstream is guaranteed? (section 4.2.2.= ) From: Ali Sajassi Date: Friday 6 November 2015 at 15:14 To: Wim Henderickx , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt Hi Wim, If you can tell me what part of the draft is not clear, I will explain it h= ere and if any further clarification in the draft needed, I will take care o= f it. Cheers, Ali From: BESS on behalf of Wim Henderickx Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:58 PM To: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt After clarification in the meeting I learned it is a requirement to select = the same PE for upstream/downstream traffic. My question is how is this done? Or better which mechanisms are used to ach= ieve this? --B_3529826324_1016515943 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
How will you do QoS= guarantees if the BUM traffic is not accommodated in this scheme ?

From: Ali Sajassi <sajassi@cisco.com>
Da= te: Sunday 8 November 2015 at 10:06
To: Wim Henderickx <w= im.henderickx@gmail.com>, "bess@ietf.o= rg" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-ev= pn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt

=

It is not a hard requirement. I will add it as a soft re= quirement (e.g., either SHOULD or MAY) and it would only be for known unicas= t traffic - i.e., upstream and downstream traffic per VNI can be guaranteed = to go through the same PE for known unicast if the operator chooses so.

Cheers,
Ali=

From: Wim Hend= erickx <wim.henderickx@gmail.co= m>
Date: Saturday, November = 7, 2015 at 7:10 PM
To: Cisco Employ= ee <sajassi@cisco.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: R= e: [bess] draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt

First if this is a  re= quirement it should be listed in section 2.

For kno= wn unicast traffic the document describes a upstream hash function in sectio= n 4.2.1.
For BUM traffic It describes the SHG/DF procedures but th= ere is no guarantee described that the downstream DF is similar to the upstr= eam hash or IGP distance in case of unequal cost. As such I don’t see = how for BUM traffic the consistency between upstream and downstream is guaranteed? (section 4.2.2.)
=

From: Ali Saja= ssi <sajassi@cisco.com>
Date: Friday 6 November 2015 at 15:14
<= span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@gmail.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess]= draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt


Hi Wim,

If you can tell me what part of the draft is not clear, I will explai= n it here and if any further clarification in the draft needed, I will take = care of it.

Cheers,
Ali

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Wim Henderi= ckx <wim.henderickx@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 4,= 2015 at 10:58 PM
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] = draft-sajassi-bess-pbb-evpn-anycast-ip- tunnels-00.txt

After clarification in the meeti= ng I learned it is a requirement to select the same PE for upstream/downstre= am traffic.
My question is how is this done? Or better which mecha= nisms are used to achieve this?
--B_3529826324_1016515943-- From nobody Mon Nov 9 18:45:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10161A1B78; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:45:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XMfhwN2tOoXE; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x229.google.com (mail-vk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1648C1A1B1C; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by vkbk63 with SMTP id k63so5269557vkb.0; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:45:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=KI7+6wwxh1rMHietVmUk/UZMP5cTt2PwOA+GHpu4J5Q=; b=NjjplCHbl6DXBhpw53//gtcuXG58yotifIYom6deezerzCapmFxINoaGYj8M2i/bpk Gwe9Z06ysSCG/xk75zj98fmvlBSACHIh0BhyWeroV0a+/1HIIg3e+5ab2+GIeHgHXn/Y U9WON5+zVrwG6qOfPnNrgnDWOcrOTnUr8wX6el11vcCrlM+qWlPwlaxCCG4+QOQks4iT jN6kMPRmpeA8hwPDh7rv0Ji1tZ0BLTvzGMrvS5e63GdmUaYKUVopeT3JUfZ2Fi1RrqyR VnRew4Tr/MKdq9XI0iR2QsT9grW/MvHUAuXIwrpLWbfe06Dxrcca1ug1qTo7y/hUa9/f NQdw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.9.16 with SMTP id 16mr844395vkj.0.1447123510205; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.31.3.106 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:45:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20401_1446455032_563726F7_20401_299_6_563726E7.4020401@orange.com> References: <20151102084255.28153.74720.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20401_1446455032_563726F7_20401_299_6_563726E7.4020401@orange.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:45:10 +0800 Message-ID: From: Dapeng Liu To: thomas.morin@orange.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11441b74c5a1ed052426b2b8 Archived-At: Cc: bess-chairs@ietf.org, draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc@ietf.org, IETF Secretariat , bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] The BESS WG has adopted draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc (*not yet*, in fact) X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:45:14 -0000 --001a11441b74c5a1ed052426b2b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello all, I think this draft is in good shape, I personally support the adoption. One comments is that the security consideration section could be improved. Thanks, Dapeng Liu 2015-11-02 17:03 GMT+08:00 : > Please ignore this bogus automated email: the document is just being > called for adoption, and no decision will be taken before the call for > adoption is over. > > -Thomas > > 2015-11-02, IETF Secretariat: > >> >> The BESS WG has adopted draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc (entered by >> Thomas Morin) >> >> The document is available at >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc/ >> >> >> Comment: >> This poll runs until **November 13th**. >> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez > recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages > electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou > falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged > information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and > delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been > modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > -- ------ Best Regards, Dapeng Liu --001a11441b74c5a1ed052426b2b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,

I think this draft is in goo= d shape, I personally support the adoption.

One co= mments is that the security consideration section could be improved.
<= div>
Thanks,
Dapeng Liu

2015-11-02 17:03 GMT+08:00 <thoma= s.morin@orange.com>:
Please= ignore this bogus automated email: the document is just being called for a= doption, and no decision will be taken before the call for adoption is over= .

-Thomas

2015-11-02, IETF Secretariat:

The BESS WG has adopted draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc (entered by Thomas Morin)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/= doc/draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc/


Comment:
This poll runs until **November 13th**.



___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message= s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess



--

------
Best Regards,
Dapeng Liu
--001a11441b74c5a1ed052426b2b8-- From nobody Mon Nov 9 23:11:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietf.org Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4C81B342A; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:11:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.9.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151110071114.31718.52347.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:11:14 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-03.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:11:14 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled Services Working Group of the IETF. Title : Virtual Subnet: A BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based Subnet Extension Solution Authors : Xiaohu Xu Robert Raszuk Christian Jacquenet Truman Boyes Brendan Fee Filename : draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-03.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2015-11-09 Abstract: This document describes a BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based subnet extension solution referred to as Virtual Subnet, which can be used for building Layer 3 network virtualization overlays within and/or between data centers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Nov 9 23:19:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DD21A00F3; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:19:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c7VAeFwZfVgi; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB41789@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB41789@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.55] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44851NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.56419A68.002A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.8.187, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: db6c799a1534ada4de41c016433eed6a Archived-At: Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "VIGOUREUX, MARTIN \(MARTIN\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group 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Hi Alvaro,=

 = ;

We have up= dated the draft according to your comments and suggestions. Thanks again fo= r your AD review of this document.

 = ;

The IETF datatracker status = page for this draft is:

https://datatracker.ietf.o= rg/doc/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet/

 

There's also a htmlized vers= ion available at:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/d= raft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-03

 

A diff from the previous ver= sion is available at:

https://www.ietf.org/= rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-03

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

From: Xuxiaohu
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 1:04 PM
To: Alvaro Retana (aretana); draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet@ietf.org=
Cc: VIGOUREUX, MARTIN (MARTIN); bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org<= br> Subject: Re: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02

 

Hi Alvaro,

 

Thanks for your detailed AD revie= w. We will update the draft according to your comments soon.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu (on behalf of all co-autho= rs)

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [aretana@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4: 2015=C4=EA10=D4=C228<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C8=D5 5:38
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: draft-ietf-bess-= virtual-subnet@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD<= /b>: VIGOUREUX, MARTIN (MARTIN); bess-c= hairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2<= /b>: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02

Dear authors= :

 <= /o:p>

I just finis= hed reading this document.  

 <= /o:p>

All of what = is described in this document is straight forward, so much so that it requi= res no change to existing technology, which makes me think that users/operators have been able to do this all along.  Is that co= rrect?  Is there anything special that was missing that this document = brings to light?  

 <= /o:p>

Being one of= several possible solutions for "network= virtualization overlays within and/or between data centers", I'm wondering about the value of publishing wh= at amounts to a set of use cases without even discussing when their use would be suitable (declared out of scope).  I reviewed the discus= sions on the lists (l3vpn/bess) and can clearly see why the Shepherd charac= terized the document as "could have been considered controversial"= ;.  Had I reviewed the document at adoption time I probably would have ended up in the rough side of the consensus.  T= here's obviously no need to revisit the topic of what do to with this docum= ent since clearly the WG Chairs believe there is consensus to publish.

 <= /o:p>

I do have so= me other comments (below). In general some of the text could be made easier= to read (see some nits below).  I would like to see my comment about rfc2119 language addressed (and an update published) before starting= the IETF Last Call.

 <= /o:p>

Thanks!=

 <= /o:p>

Alvaro.=

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

Major:<= /o:p>

  1. The use of rfc2119 keywords is not required. &n= bsp;Note that in general these keywords "MUST only be used where it is=  actually required for interoperation", but you're using them to = apparently express requirements w/out specific guidance or to restate what is normal = network operation .  For example:
    • In Section 3.3. (CE Host Discovery) the te= xt reads: "PE routers SHOULD be able to discover their local CE hosts= =A1=AD PE routers could accomplish local CE host discovery by=A1=ADARP or N= D=A1=ADLLDP=A1=ADVDP), or even interaction with the data center orchestration system=A1=AD" =  There is no specific mechanism mandated that supports the use of &quo= t;SHOULD".
    • In Section 3.4. (ARP/ND Proxy): "PE r= outers SHOULD only respond to an ARP request or Neighbor Solicitation (NS) = message for a target host when it has a best route for that target host in the associated VRF and the outgoing interface of that best route i= s different from the one over which the ARP request or NS message is receiv= ed."  Isn't this how proxy ARP already works?  Am I missing = something that requires the use of "SHOULD" in this document?
    • Section 4.3. (TTL and Traceroute) describe= s a limitation and then says "=A1=ADunless special TTL processing = ;for such case has been implemented (e.g., if the source and destinati= on addresses=A1=ADbelong to the same extended subnet, neither ingress nor egress PE routers SH= OULD decrement the TTL=A1=ADTTL of such packet SHOULD NOT be copi= ed into the TTL of the transport=A1=AD"  In this case the rfc2119= keywords are used as part of an example (e.g.)..which doesn't really support the use of "SHOULD/SHOULD NOT".  Is the intent to s= pecify this "special processing" in this document?  If so, w= hy "SHOULD" and not "MUST"?  Algo, given that the = text appears in the Limitations section, if you're mandating the "spec= ial processing" then it wouldn't be a limitation anymore..

Minor:<= /o:p>

  1. I think that RFC4761, 4762, 4659, 5798 and 6513= should be Informational references.
  2. You first use "VS" in Section 3.6. &n= bsp;I'm assuming this is related to "virtual subnet", but there's= no explicit association.
  3. Multicast.  Section 3.2. (Multicast) = says that for "IP multicast between CE hosts of the same virtual subne= t, MVPN technologies [RFC6513] could be directly used without any = ;change".  I'm assuming that you're not referring to link-local multicast (betw= een hosts on the same subnet) because later (Section 4.2) you say that &quo= t;link-local multicast traffic cannot be supported".  Please= clarify in 3.2 what type of multicast you're talking about, and/or which you're not.
  4. Section 4.3. (TTL and Traceroute).  W= hat does this mean: "traceroute output would reflect the fact that&nbs= p;these two hosts belonging to the same subnet are actually connected = via an virtual subnet emulated by ARP proxy, rather than a normal LAN"?=  I think I know, but please be specific in the text.<= /span>

 <= /o:p>

Nits:

  1. Section 1. (Introduction)
    • s/commonly used in those situations/commonly us= ed in situations
    • There are a couple of very long sentences that = could be simplified =A1=AA they make sense, but other reviewers may not cap= ture the essence.  Just a suggestion
      • OLD>
      •  
      • As a result, the traffic from a cloud user= (i.e., a VPN user) which
      • is destined for a given server located at one d= ata center
      • location of such extended subnet may arrive at = another data
      • center location firstly according to the subnet= route, and then
      • be forwarded to the location where the service = is actually
      • located.  This suboptimal routing would ob= viously result in an
      • unnecessary consumption of the bandwidth resour= ce between data
      • centers.  Furthermore, in the case where t= he traditional VPLS
      • technology [RFC4761] [RFC4762] is used for data= center
      • interconnect and default gateways of different = data center
      • locations are configured within the same virtua= l router
      • redundancy group, the returning traffic from th= at server to the
      • cloud user may be forwarded at layer2 to a defa= ult gateway
      • located at one of the remote data center premis= es, rather than
      • the one placed at the local data center locatio= n.  This
      • suboptimal routing would also unnecessarily con= sume the bandwidth
      • resource between data centers
      • NEW>
      •  
      • As a result, the traffic between a specific use= r and server, in different 
      • data centers, may first be routed through a thi= rd data center.
      • This suboptimal routing would obviously result = in an
      • unnecessary consumption of the bandwidth resour= ce between data
      • centers.  Furthermore, in the case where t= raditional VPLS
      • technology [RFC4761] [RFC4762] is used for data= center
      • interconnect, return traffic from a server may = be forwarded to a
      • default gateway located in a different data cen= ter due to the configuration
      • in a virtual router redundancy group.  Thi= s
      • suboptimal routing would also unnecessarily con= sume the bandwidth
      • resource between data centers.
  1. Please be consistent on how "Layer 2"= and "Layer 3" is used..it is not consistent now.  My person= al preference is "Layer x".
  2. s/CE hosts/hosts
  3. s/ARP proxy/an ARP proxy
  4. Missing references:  "Link Layer Disc= overy Protocol (LLDP)", "VSI Discovery and Configuration Protocol= (VDP)"
--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44851NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 01:05:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182CF1A8980 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 01:05:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HQoJj8Lh3iF4 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 01:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30F2B1A8925 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 01:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAD32593; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:05:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.41) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:05:26 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:05:21 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "sajassi@cisco.com" , "jdrake@juniper.net" Thread-Topic: One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Thread-Index: AdEblm0XwLjZFZ1MT0KJmhdU0uo/vQ== Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:05:20 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6AA8nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.5641B358.0148, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: dc6398c27f715a8b1fefc242fcbfca57 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:05:34 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6AA8nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ali & John, The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be us= ed for Overlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS = Over GRE. In section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are request= ed as follows: 8 VXLAN Encapsulation 9 NVGRE Encapsulation 10 MPLS Encapsulation (?) 11 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation 12 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Woul= d you like to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10? Thanks, weiguo --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6AA8nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ali & John,

The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-ove= rlay-02' describes how EVPN can be used for Overlay network, the overlay ne= twork includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS Over GRE.

In section 13 IANA considerations, sev= eral overlay tunnel types are requested as follows:

8    VXLAN Encapsulatio= n
9    NVGRE Encapsulation
10   MPLS Encapsulation   (?)
11   MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
12   VXLAN GPE Encapsulation

 

IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay enc= apsulations, 10 is an exception. Would you like to explain what's the purpo= se of tunnel type 10?

 

Thanks,

weiguo

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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DCD71B39DA for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 08:02:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 6A8A1346BFDB5; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:02:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAAG2O9C021777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:02:27 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.183]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:01:35 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" To: Haoweiguo , "sajassi@cisco.com" , "jdrake@juniper.net" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Thread-Index: AQHRG9ETUP92oWRS5Ua5Lf7oEtipsA== Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:01:35 +0000 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localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64C91B3C1C; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:27:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MVQ20B1LMRd3; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6DB21A1A90; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:27:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; 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verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:27:27 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:27:26 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:27:26 -0600 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Xuxiaohu , "draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02 Thread-Index: AQHREP/Zw7GhT2VtVUq2Og/eUCmx3p6INRgGgAy4L1CAAMxbAA== Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:27:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB41789@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44851@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44851@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D2679F28E8E8Caretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "VIGOUREUX, MARTIN \(MARTIN\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:27:30 -0000 --_000_D2679F28E8E8Caretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/10/15, 2:18 AM, "Xuxiaohu" > wrote: Xiaohu: Hi! We have updated the draft according to your comments and suggestions. I just have a couple of small items. Please see my comments below.. I'm going to start the IETF Last Call and put this document up for the IESG= Telechat on Dec/3. Please post an update based on the comments below by t= he end of the week. Thanks! Alvaro. . . . Major: 1. The use of rfc2119 keywords is not required. You left in the rfc2119 boilerplate and reference, please take them off. ... 1. You first use "VS" in Section 3.6. I'm assuming this is related to "= virtual subnet", but there's no explicit association. I see that you expanded in 3.6, but now VS is used for the first time in 3.= 8 w/out explicitly expanding. Solution: in 3.6 s/Virtual Subnet/Virtual Subnet (VS) --_000_D2679F28E8E8Caretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 11/10/15, 2:18 AM, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Xiaohu:

Hi!

We have updated the draft according= to your comments and suggestions. 

I just have a couple of small items.  Please see my comments belo= w..

I'm going to start the IETF Last Call and put this document up for the= IESG Telechat on Dec/3.  Please post an update based on the comments = below by the end of the week.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

. . .

Major:

  1. The use of rfc2119 keywords is not required.

You left in the rf= c2119 boilerplate and reference, please take them off.

…
  1. You fi= rst use "VS" in Section 3.6.  I'm assuming this is related t= o "virtual subnet", but there's no explicit association.

I see that you expanded in 3.6, but now VS is used for the first time = in 3.8 w/out explicitly expanding.

Solution: in 3.6  s/Virtual Subnet/Virtual Subnet (VS)

--_000_D2679F28E8E8Caretanaciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 10:49:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietf.org Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3611B3CB9; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:49:19 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.9.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: Message-ID: <20151110184919.23433.17690.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:49:19 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: aretana@cisco.com, bess-chairs@ietf.org, martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com, bess@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet@ietf.org Subject: [bess] Last Call: (Virtual Subnet: A BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based Subnet Extension Solution) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:49:19 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the BGP Enabled Services WG (bess) to consider the following document: - 'Virtual Subnet: A BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based Subnet Extension Solution' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2015-11-24. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document describes a BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based subnet extension solution referred to as Virtual Subnet, which can be used for building Layer 3 network virtualization overlays within and/or between data centers. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Tue Nov 10 17:27:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A381B2C89; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:27:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id khTzuaavjsGI; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FA321B2C7B; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDX89550; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:27:06 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.187]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:26:59 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , "draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02 Thread-Index: AQHREP/Zw7GhT2VtVUq2Og/eUCmx3p6INRgGgAy4L1CAAMxbAIAAZE9g Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:26:58 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44BD9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB41789@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44851@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.55] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44BD9NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.5642996D.0001, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.8.187, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: db6c799a1534ada4de41c016433eed6a Archived-At: Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "VIGOUREUX, MARTIN \(MARTIN\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:27:15 -0000 --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44BD9NKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alvaro, I will update it ASAP. Best regards, Xiaohu From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:27 AM To: Xuxiaohu; draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet@ietf.org Cc: VIGOUREUX, MARTIN (MARTIN); bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02 On 11/10/15, 2:18 AM, "Xuxiaohu" > wrote: Xiaohu: Hi! We have updated the draft according to your comments and suggestions. I just have a couple of small items. Please see my comments below.. I'm going to start the IETF Last Call and put this document up for the IESG= Telechat on Dec/3. Please post an update based on the comments below by t= he end of the week. Thanks! Alvaro. . . . Major: 1. The use of rfc2119 keywords is not required. You left in the rfc2119 boilerplate and reference, please take them off. ... 1. You first use "VS" in Section 3.6. I'm assuming this is related to "= virtual subnet", but there's no explicit association. I see that you expanded in 3.6, but now VS is used for the first time in 3.= 8 w/out explicitly expanding. Solution: in 3.6 s/Virtual Subnet/Virtual Subnet (VS) --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44BD9NKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Alvaro,

 = ;

I will upd= ate it ASAP.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:27 AM
To: Xuxiaohu; draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet@ietf.org
Cc: VIGOUREUX, MARTIN (MARTIN); bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf.org<= br> Subject: Re: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-02

 

On 11/10/15,= 2:18 AM, "Xuxiaohu" <x= uxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

 <= /o:p>

Xiaohu:<= /span>

 

Hi!

 <= /o:p>

We have up= dated the draft according to your comments and suggestions. 

 

I just have a couple of small items. &= nbsp;Please see my comments below..

 

I'm going to start the IETF Last Call = and put this document up for the IESG Telechat on Dec/3.  Please post = an update based on the comments below by the end of the week.

 

Thanks!

 

Alvaro.

 

. . .

Major:

  1. The use of rfc2119 keywords is not required.

 <= /o:p>

You left in = the rfc2119 boilerplate and reference, please take them off.

 <= /o:p>

…=

  1. You first use "VS" in Section 3.6. &n= bsp;I'm assuming this is related to "virtual subnet", but there's= no explicit association.

 

I see that you expanded in 3.6, but no= w VS is used for the first time in 3.8 w/out explicitly expanding.

 

Solution: in 3.6  s/Virtual Subne= t/Virtual Subnet (VS)

 

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB44BD9NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 17:38:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietf.org Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4C71B4583; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:38:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.9.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151111013833.22759.4799.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:38:33 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-04.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:38:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled Services Working Group of the IETF. Title : Virtual Subnet: A BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based Subnet Extension Solution Authors : Xiaohu Xu Robert Raszuk Christian Jacquenet Truman Boyes Brendan Fee Filename : draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-04.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2015-11-10 Abstract: This document describes a BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based subnet extension solution referred to as Virtual Subnet, which can be used for building Layer 3 network virtualization overlays within and/or between data centers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Nov 10 19:03:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E191B4791 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:03:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QthueDzPT1lY for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E2961B4795 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAE24463; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:03:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:03:39 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:03:34 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , "sajassi@cisco.com" , "jdrake@juniper.net" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Thread-Index: AQHRG9ETUP92oWRS5Ua5Lf7oEtipsJ6WArmC Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:03:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6C1Bnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.5642B00E.0039, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 3d3b6eb52feb8a94722854a8570db0b6 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:03:51 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6C1Bnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge, Thanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, i'm sorry. RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, like L2TP= v3,GRE and IP in IP. For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defined = specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn= 't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for overlay network solution was prop= osed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VX= LAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are u= sed in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We ne= ed the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MP= LS tunnel type) should be used. So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and w= ill incur some interoperbility issue for RFC 7432. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jor= ge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP encap e= xt community. That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks where you ca= n also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE that= the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved. Thx Jorge From: BESS > on behalf = of Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM To: "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Hi Ali & John, The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be us= ed for Overlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS = Over GRE. In section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are request= ed as follows: 8 VXLAN Encapsulation 9 NVGRE Encapsulation 10 MPLS Encapsulation (?) 11 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation 12 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Woul= d you like to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10? Thanks, weiguo --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6C1Bnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jorge,

Thanks for your explanations. However,= i still can't understand, i'm sorry.

RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type a= nd encapsulation attribute, like L2TPv3,GRE and IP in IP.  For RFC 551= 2, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defined specifically, it is default case.= In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for overlay network solution was propos= ed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VXLA= N/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 ar= e used in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We need the tunnel type to clearly noti= fy peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MPLS tunnel type) should be used.&nb= sp; So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and will incur some interoperbilit= y issue for RFC 7432. Am i right?

Thanks,

weiguo

 

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on beha= lf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo, 

There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP en= cap ext community.
That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks where y= ou can also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE= that the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved.

Thx
Jorge

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 a= t 1:05 AM
To: "sajassi@cisco.com" <sajassi@cisco.com>, "= ;jdrake@juniper.net= " <jdrake@juniper= .net>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] One question about= 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'

Hi Ali & John,

The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-ove= rlay-02' describes how EVPN can be used for Overlay network, the overlay ne= twork includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS Over GRE.

In section 13 IANA considerations, sev= eral overlay tunnel types are requested as follows:

8    VXLAN Encapsulatio= n
9    NVGRE Encapsulation
10   MPLS Encapsulation   (?)
11   MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
12   VXLAN GPE Encapsulation

 

IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay enc= apsulations, 10 is an exception. Would you like to explain what's the purpo= se of tunnel type 10?

 

Thanks,

weiguo

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b2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L3NwYW4+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_1F70DC8A2BB540C789CA03F6E0784B8Balcatellucentcom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 22:08:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A988D1B3299 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:08:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IhUvIKOCvafc for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4F4D1B3298 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDY08326; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:08:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:08:02 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:07:54 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , "sajassi@cisco.com" , "jdrake@juniper.net" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Thread-Index: AQHRG9ETUP92oWRS5Ua5Lf7oEtipsJ6WArmC//+WFoCAALpxuw== Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:07:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> , <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6C5Bnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.5642DB44.0107, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 57c39537aecbf93154ac6c8e6a6e9d44 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:08:09 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6C5Bnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge, Understood, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is MPLS = encapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is the intro= duction of tunnel type 10 just for further removing ambiguity? If i don't u= se the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN implementation(RFC 7432), it will = also never incur any issue. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jor= ge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, Well, if an RFC7432 implementation does not use the RFC5512 ext community, = the following sentence in the evan-overlay draft should help interoperabili= ty. I personally don=92t see any issues. If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed. Thanks. Jorge From: Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM To: Jorge Rabadan >, "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Jorge, Thanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, i'm sorry. RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, like L2TP= v3,GRE and IP in IP. For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defined = specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn= 't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for overlay network solution was prop= osed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VX= LAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are u= sed in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We ne= ed the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MP= LS tunnel type) should be used. So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and w= ill incur some interoperbility issue for RFC 7432. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf = of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.= net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP encap e= xt community. That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks where you ca= n also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE that= the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved. Thx Jorge From: BESS > on behalf = of Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM To: "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Hi Ali & John, The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be us= ed for Overlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS = Over GRE. In section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are request= ed as follows: 8 VXLAN Encapsulation 9 NVGRE Encapsulation 10 MPLS Encapsulation (?) 11 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation 12 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Woul= d you like to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10? Thanks, weiguo --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6C5Bnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jorge,

Understood, many thanks. Now that the = default tunnel encapsulation is MPLS encapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seem= s to be unneccessary. So is the introduction of tunnel type 10 just for fur= ther removing ambiguity? If i don't use the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN implementation(RFC 7432), it wil= l also never incur any issue. Am i right?

 

Thanks,

weiguo

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on beha= lf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo,

Well, if an RFC7432 implementation does not use the RFC5512 ext commun= ity, the following sentence in the evan-overlay draft should help interoper= ability. I personally don=92t see any issues.

If the BGP Encapsulation extended com=
munity is not present, then the
   default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation
   is assumed.

Thanks.
Jorge

From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 a= t 7:03 PM
To: Jorge Rabadan <jorge.rabadan@alc= atel-lucent.com>, "sajassi@cisco.com" <sajassi@cisco.com>, "jdrake@junip= er.net" <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] One question a= bout 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'

Jorge,

Thanks for your explanations. However,= i still can't understand, i'm sorry.

RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type a= nd encapsulation attribute, like L2TPv3,GRE and IP in IP.  For RFC 551= 2, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defined specifically, it is default case.= In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for overlay network solution was propos= ed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VXLA= N/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 ar= e used in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We need the tunnel type to clearly noti= fy peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MPLS tunnel type) should be used.&nb= sp; So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and will incur some interoperbilit= y issue for RFC 7432. Am i right?

Thanks,

weiguo

 

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabada= n, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net<= /a>
Cc: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo, 

There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP en= cap ext community.
That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks where y= ou can also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE= that the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved.

Thx
Jorge

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 a= t 1:05 AM
To: "sajassi@cisco.com" <sajassi@cisco.com>, "= ;jdrake@juniper.net= " <jdrake@juniper= .net>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] One question about= 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'

Hi Ali & John,

The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-ove= rlay-02' describes how EVPN can be used for Overlay network, the overlay ne= twork includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS Over GRE.

In section 13 IANA considerations, sev= eral overlay tunnel types are requested as follows:

8    VXLAN Encapsulatio= n
9    NVGRE Encapsulation
10   MPLS Encapsulation   (?)
11   MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
12   VXLAN GPE Encapsulation

 

IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay enc= apsulations, 10 is an exception. Would you like to explain what's the purpo= se of tunnel type 10?

 

Thanks,

weiguo

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6C5Bnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Nov 11 00:35:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietf.org Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F383E1A6F61; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:35:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.9.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151111083535.3846.88045.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:35:35 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-05.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:35:36 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled Services Working Group of the IETF. Title : Virtual Subnet: A BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based Subnet Extension Solution Authors : Xiaohu Xu Robert Raszuk Christian Jacquenet Truman Boyes Brendan Fee Filename : draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-05.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2015-11-11 Abstract: This document describes a BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based subnet extension solution referred to as Virtual Subnet, which can be used for building Layer 3 network virtualization overlays within and/or between data centers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Nov 11 06:40:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B901ACEA7 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:40:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RN82RdaH69Ki for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0119.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A52F81ACE9D for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.130.155) by SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.130.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:39:54 +0000 Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) by SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:39:54 +0000 From: John E Drake To: Haoweiguo , "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , "sajassi@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Thread-Index: AQHRG9ETUP92oWRS5Ua5Lf7oEtipsJ6WArmC//+WFoCAALpxu4AAjp7g Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:39:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> , <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jdrake@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; SN1PR0501MB1709; 5:7JzsGf+wC5mz5Br2csgE261iEUnl2e9L0A61Cm2vgyRc9E2/dmdpYeq7fQAARz3sTnp4nvNow5YL12v9qS/n60i8/QJOUSAkxaM1JlutDCnCmNC/Fhm0eqQiKtyzO9gL8U6QPGPzuFXTefqoyBgWSw==; 24:mROPkJswjQSYChZ6D+P4EJ5HudL23lRPwYA9zbiJDyhhzDBsep5kpFoLcrB8DX4JrCyvywJLBF+UNFdAxzL/PbuVAjLl7FSWMy/vlHSA5Gw=; 20:G6+48udZGrryOS/jMrXiwE3j50xMFBBXbq3m5Pi5Ynocz5mWUhaJwJs+SuGrTQnFDGTkXFx3v2BM1IKn/MGHoA== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:SN1PR0501MB1709; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014)(108003899814671); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(520078)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:SN1PR0501MB1709; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:SN1PR0501MB1709; x-forefront-prvs: 0757EEBDCA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(199003)(189002)(164054003)(377454003)(66654002)(74316001)(122556002)(16236675004)(33656002)(40100003)(86362001)(87936001)(5003600100002)(54356999)(77096005)(101416001)(19625215002)(102836002)(15975445007)(93886004)(11100500001)(5008740100001)(5007970100001)(10400500002)(50986999)(92566002)(76176999)(81156007)(189998001)(19609705001)(5004730100002)(66066001)(5002640100001)(230783001)(97736004)(106356001)(99286002)(5001770100001)(5001960100002)(106116001)(19580395003)(105586002)(19580405001)(2900100001)(2950100001)(5001920100001)(19300405004)(2501003)(76576001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:SN1PR0501MB1709; H:SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN1PR0501MB17092E0A7F8A69AD96A8C903C7130SN1PR0501MB1709_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Nov 2015 14:39:53.6607 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR0501MB1709 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:40:03 -0000 --_000_SN1PR0501MB17092E0A7F8A69AD96A8C903C7130SN1PR0501MB1709_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weiguo, It is needed in order to distinguish between an advertising node that only = supports non-MPLS encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS en= capsulations. An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation do= es not need to advertise anything. Yours Irrespectively, John From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:08 AM To: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com; John E Drake Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Jorge, Understood, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is MPLS = encapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is the intro= duction of tunnel type 10 just for further removing ambiguity? If i don't u= se the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN implementation(RFC 7432), it will = also never incur any issue. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jor= ge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.= net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, Well, if an RFC7432 implementation does not use the RFC5512 ext community, = the following sentence in the evan-overlay draft should help interoperabili= ty. I personally don't see any issues. If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed. Thanks. Jorge From: Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM To: Jorge Rabadan >, "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Jorge, Thanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, i'm sorry. RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, like L2TP= v3,GRE and IP in IP. For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defined = specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn= 't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for overlay network solution was prop= osed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VX= LAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are u= sed in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We ne= ed the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MP= LS tunnel type) should be used. So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and w= ill incur some interoperbility issue for RFC 7432. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf = of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.= net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP encap e= xt community. That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks where you ca= n also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE that= the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved. Thx Jorge From: BESS > on behalf = of Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM To: "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Hi Ali & John, The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be us= ed for Overlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS = Over GRE. In section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are request= ed as follows: 8 VXLAN Encapsulation 9 NVGRE Encapsulation 10 MPLS Encapsulation (?) 11 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation 12 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Woul= d you like to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10? Thanks, weiguo --_000_SN1PR0501MB17092E0A7F8A69AD96A8C903C7130SN1PR0501MB1709_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Weiguo,

 

It is needed in order to distinguish = between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS encapsulations and = one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.  An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not need to= advertise anything.

 

Yours Irrespectively,

 

John

 

From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@hu= awei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:08 AM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com; John E Drake
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

 

J= orge,

U= nderstood, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is MPLS e= ncapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is the introd= uction of tunnel type 10 just for further removing ambiguity? If i don't use the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN implementa= tion(RFC 7432), it will also never incur any issue. Am i right?

 

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

From:<= /span> BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.co= m; jdrake@juniper.net
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo,

 =

Well, if an RFC7432 impl= ementation does not use the RFC5512 ext community, the following sentence i= n the evan-overlay draft should help interoperability. I personally donR= 17;t see any issues.

 = 

If the =
BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the
 &=
nbsp; default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation
 &=
nbsp; is assumed.

 =

Thanks.

Jorge<= /p>

 =

From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM
To: Jorge Rabadan <jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com>, "sajassi@cisco.com&q= uot; <sajassi@cis= co.com>, "jdrake@junip= er.net" <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

 =

J= orge,

T= hanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, i'm sorry.<= o:p>

R= FC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, like L2TPv= 3,GRE and IP in IP.  For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defi= ned specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for over= lay network solution was proposed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to dif= ferentiate MPLS tunnel and VXLAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because s= ame route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are used in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We need = the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MPLS = tunnel type) should be used.  So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and= will incur some interoperbility issue for RFC 7432. Am i right?

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

 

From:<= /span> BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net<= /a>
Cc: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo, =

 =

There are already implem= entations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP encap ext community.=

That is the value you wo= uld have in RFC7432 compliant networks where you can also have overlay tunn= els. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE that the route needs an MPLS= tunnel to be resolved.

 =

Thx

Jorge<= /p>

 =

From: BESS <= bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM
To: "saj= assi@cisco.com" <sajassi@cisco.com>, "jdrake@juniper.net" <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'=

 =

H= i Ali & John,

T= he draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be use= d for Overlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS O= ver GRE.

I= n section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are requeste= d as follows:

8=     VXLAN Encapsulation
9    NVGRE Encapsulation
10   MPLS Encapsulation   (?)
11   MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
12   VXLAN GPE Encapsulation=

 

I= MO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Would= you like to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10?

 

T= hanks,

weiguo

--_000_SN1PR0501MB17092E0A7F8A69AD96A8C903C7130SN1PR0501MB1709_-- From nobody Wed Nov 11 10:28:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173BC1B3769 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:28:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L_aYQahz-fkD for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0104.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6370B1B31E7 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from BY2PR05MB061.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.34.141) by BY2PR05MB061.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.34.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:27:59 +0000 Received: from BY2PR05MB061.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.31]) by BY2PR05MB061.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.31]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:27:59 +0000 From: Tapraj Singh To: Sami Boutros , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] Seeking Feedback on evpn-auto-provisoning Thread-Index: AQHRAUS8y7Syc+yzyEykjPiiTkufW56W1LgA Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:27:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=tsingh@juniper.net; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [66.129.239.10] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BY2PR05MB061; 5:Be8H/UNXOVhSpMPe5IEvNzbF60Xx0Xig4AU/n3hybyq5fVek8rL4IHXh4V9tZVl2TcEImg5EKxZxiytYjVUWRDT/13YkCk6275+uVHPT8hzt+IGt/V2PMJMdEUIxv/hk/X//EtcxfVbSVvvGF1savQ==; 24:2DUGzAvPCMTH3luSAneBXTng+s2Qx3yCGE8XlTGhOi1X7V5iID2i45r5ivrHEo64E/kQUwNiST6irB9qMwb22RqLyTTRlQaQExTXiN4tjH4=; 20:Ykmw1bPJAGGfanU5Zg7/8adOLBKDSp5QjirU8bKJ274Lw1cw8SvfwibZ6qPKgGdc209+8nmieB2iDoLpoG9lWw== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY2PR05MB061; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(520078)(5005006)(8121501046)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:BY2PR05MB061; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BY2PR05MB061; x-forefront-prvs: 0757EEBDCA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(199003)(377454003)(189002)(164054003)(86362001)(102836002)(5004730100002)(5007970100001)(5008740100001)(19580405001)(106356001)(5001960100002)(15975445007)(76176999)(54356999)(81156007)(19580395003)(106116001)(97736004)(11100500001)(5002640100001)(2950100001)(36756003)(189998001)(66066001)(5001770100001)(2900100001)(92566002)(105586002)(19617315012)(107886002)(10400500002)(87936001)(4001350100001)(40100003)(50986999)(83506001)(230783001)(2501003)(15187005004)(16236675004)(99286002)(101416001)(122556002)(357404004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR05MB061; H:BY2PR05MB061.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D268C27F2FB1Etsinghjunipernet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Nov 2015 18:27:58.3327 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR05MB061 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Seeking Feedback on evpn-auto-provisoning X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:28:06 -0000 --_000_D268C27F2FB1Etsinghjunipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sami, I have gone through the draft. It looks good to me. I have few comments t= hat we should incorporate in the next version of the draft. 1. Currently in the draft we have First Sign of life(FSOL) that is detec= ted from access side only. In future we can have First sign of Life that mi= ght come from core side as well. Below I am putting different FSOL A) Access side L2 First Sign of Life (FSOL) 1. Unclassified Mac 1.1 IPoE 1.2 PPPoE 1.3 Mac Session 2. Unclassified Vlan 3. Control Protocols (i.e. ELMI, MVRP, DHCP) B) First Sign Life that is detected from Core Side 1. This can be detected whenever the IM route is detected for a given EV= I and VLAN in BGP IM Route for a given EVI. 2. Currently in the draft we are putting that there is a default bridge = domain which take of sending FSOL to Controller and based on the identifica= tion(Router, port, vlan, mac etc) received in the FSOL corresponding servic= e profile is pushed to the EVPN enable switch or router. Here I would like= to suggest that we should put a concept of L2 Context that is configured o= n port and Based on the L2 Context policies, If first sign of LIFE packet = is classified into L2 context then router or switch will send the FSOL to c= ontroller for downloading the service profile to router or switches from Co= ntroller. Example: Interface ge-1/0/0 Logical-port l2-context l2-context type {mac, vlan, pppoe, ipoe, elmi, mvrp etc) Encapsulation dot1q <------configured if l2= context type vlan> Service-policies -----> This is need for check if service template is conf= igured on the box itself and need to be either downloaded from controller. 3. We should provide the template for service definition for provisioning = service end to end based on the First sign of life packet. : { Customer ABC: matching criteria Re-Write Forwarding Service "EVPN-EVI-100" Qos Profile "BRONZE" CFM: MIPS/MEPs } Will work with you and will send information offline so that we can ma= ke this draft complete for handling auto-provisioning of EVPN enabled servi= ces for different type of FSOL and provision the service end-to-end. Thanks Tapraj From: BESS > on behalf = of Sami Boutros > Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 1:10 PM To: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] Seeking Feedback on evpn-auto-provisoning Hi, The draft propose an EVPN route based on the FSOL packets to be sent to a c= ontroller in a data center network, to trigger a push of the related L2/L3 = service configuration to be provisioned on the PE/NVE and on the switch por= ts. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boutros-bess-evpn-auto-provisoning-00 Thanks, Sami --_000_D268C27F2FB1Etsinghjunipernet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sami,
  I have gone through the draft. It looks good to me. I have few comme= nts that we should incorporate in the next version of the draft.
  1. Currently in the draft we have First Sign of life(FSOL) that is detecte= d from access side only. In future we can have First sign of Life that migh= t come from core side as well. Below I am putting different FSOL

 A) Access side L2 First Sign = of Life (FSOL)

  1. Unclassified Mac

     1.1 IPoE

     1.2 PPPoE

     1.3 Mac Se= ssion

  2. Unclassified Vlan

  3. Control Protocols (i.e. E= LMI, MVRP, DHCP)

B) First Sign= Life that is detected from Core Side

  1. This can = be detected whenever the IM route is detected for a given EVI and VLAN in B= GP IM Route for a given EVI.
   2. Currently in the draft we are = putting that there is a default bridge domain which take of sending FSOL to= Controller and based on the identification(Router, port, vlan, mac etc) re= ceived in the FSOL corresponding service profile is pushed to the EVPN enable switch or router.  Here I would lik= e to suggest that we should put a concept of L2 Context that is configured = on port and Based on the L2 Context policies,  If first sign of LIFE p= acket is classified into L2 context then router or switch will send the FSOL to controller for downloading the service pro= file to router or switches from Controller.
       Example:
    Interface ge-1/0/0
Logical-port l2-context
l2-context type {mac, vlan, pppoe, ipoe, elmi, mvrp etc)<= /font>
Encapsulation dot1q <vlan with other combinations> =  <——————configured if l2 contex= t type vlan>
Service-policies  —————> This is need for check = if service template is configured on the box itself and need to be either d= ownloaded from controller.
3.  We should provide the template for service definition for pro= visioning service end to end based on the First sign of life packet.
 <= nasport>:<mac-address> {
                  Cu= stomer ABC: 
                 matching=   criteria

        Re-Write

        Forwarding Service “EVPN-EVI-100R= 21;

                 Qos Prof= ile “BRONZE”
                 CFM: MIP= S/MEPs
 }
     Will work with you and will send information offli= ne so that we can make this draft complete for handling auto-provisioning o= f EVPN enabled services for different type of FSOL and provision the servic= e end-to-end.

Thanks
Tapraj

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Sami Boutro= s <boutros.sami@gmail.com&= gt;
Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at= 1:10 PM
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: [bess] Seeking Feedback on= evpn-auto-provisoning

Hi,

The draft propose an EVPN route based on the FSOL packets to be sent to a c= ontroller in a data center network, to trigger a push of the related L2/L3 = service configuration to be provisioned on the PE/NVE and on the switch por= ts.
Thanks,

Sami
 --_000_D268C27F2FB1Etsinghjunipernet_-- From nobody Wed Nov 11 17:17:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354211B3CD2 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:17:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntqYMOsF1HYL for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E882F1B3CD1 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAF38378; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:17:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:17:08 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:17:02 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: John E Drake , "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , "sajassi@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Thread-Index: AQHRG9ETUP92oWRS5Ua5Lf7oEtipsJ6WArmC//+WFoCAALpxu4AAjp7ggAC0FiE= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:17:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> , <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6DF8nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.5643E896.001D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 3d3b6eb52feb8a94722854a8570db0b6 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:17:16 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6DF8nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, It's clear, great thanks. Yes, it's needed in order to distinguish between = an advertising node that only support non-MPLS encapsulations and one that = supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations. If has no this MPLS encapsulatio= n type, the node that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations will deemed= to be the node that only support non-MPLS encapsulations by remote EVPN PE= s. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 22:39 To: Haoweiguo; Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, It is needed in order to distinguish between an advertising node that only = supports non-MPLS encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS en= capsulations. An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation do= es not need to advertise anything. Yours Irrespectively, John From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:08 AM To: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com; John E Drake Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Jorge, Understood, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is MPLS = encapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is the intro= duction of tunnel type 10 just for further removing ambiguity? If i don't u= se the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN implementation(RFC 7432), it will = also never incur any issue. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jor= ge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.= net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, Well, if an RFC7432 implementation does not use the RFC5512 ext community, = the following sentence in the evan-overlay draft should help interoperabili= ty. I personally don=92t see any issues. If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed. Thanks. Jorge From: Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM To: Jorge Rabadan >, "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Jorge, Thanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, i'm sorry. RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, like L2TP= v3,GRE and IP in IP. For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defined = specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn= 't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for overlay network solution was prop= osed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VX= LAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are u= sed in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We ne= ed the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MP= LS tunnel type) should be used. So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and w= ill incur some interoperbility issue for RFC 7432. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf = of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.= net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP encap e= xt community. That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks where you ca= n also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE that= the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved. Thx Jorge From: BESS > on behalf = of Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM To: "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Hi Ali & John, The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be us= ed for Overlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS = Over GRE. In section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are request= ed as follows: 8 VXLAN Encapsulation 9 NVGRE Encapsulation 10 MPLS Encapsulation (?) 11 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation 12 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Woul= d you like to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10? Thanks, weiguo --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6DF8nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John,

It's clear, great thanks. Yes, i= t's needed in order to distinguish between an advertising node that only su= pport non-MPLS encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encap= sulations. If has no this MPLS encapsulation type, the node that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations will deemed = to be the node that only support non-MPLS encapsulations by remote EVPN PEs= .

Thanks,

weiguo

From: John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 22:39
To: Haoweiguo; Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo,

 

It is needed in order to distinguish between= an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS encapsulations and one tha= t supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.  An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not need to= advertise anything.

 

Yours Irrespectively,

 

John

 

From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:08 AM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com; John E Drake
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

 

Jorge,

Understo= od, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is MPLS encapsul= ation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is the introduction = of tunnel type 10 just for further removing ambiguity? If i don't use the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN i= mplementation(RFC 7432), it will also never incur any issue. Am i right?

 

Thanks,<= /span>

weiguo

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net<= /a>
Cc: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo,

 

Well, if an RFC7432 imp= lementation does not use the RFC5512 ext community, the following sentence = in the evan-overlay draft should help interoperability. I personally don=92= t see any issues.

 

If th=
e BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the

 =
;  default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation=



 =
;  is assumed.

 

Thanks.

Jorge

 

From: = Haoweiguo <hao= weiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM
To: Jorge Rabadan <jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com>, "sajassi@cisco.com&q= uot; <sajassi@cis= co.com>, "jdrake@junip= er.net" <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

 

Jorge,

Thanks f= or your explanations. However, i still can't understand, i'm sorry.<= /p>

RFC 5512= only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, like L2TPv3,GRE a= nd IP in IP.  For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defined spe= cifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for over= lay network solution was proposed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to dif= ferentiate MPLS tunnel and VXLAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because s= ame route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are used in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We need = the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MPLS = tunnel type) should be used.  So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and= will incur some interoperbility issue for RFC 7432. Am i right?

Thanks,<= /span>

weiguo

 

From: BESS [be= ss-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net<= /a>
Cc: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo, 

 

There are already imple= mentations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP encap ext community.

That is the value you w= ould have in RFC7432 compliant networks where you can also have overlay tun= nels. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE that the route needs an MPL= S tunnel to be resolved.

 

Thx

Jorge

 

From: = BESS <bess-bo= unces@ietf.org> on behalf of Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM
To: "saj= assi@cisco.com" <sajassi@cisco.com>, "jdrake@juniper.net" <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'=

 

Hi Ali &= amp; John,

The draf= t of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be used for O= verlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS Over GRE= .

In secti= on 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are requested as fo= llows:

8 &= nbsp;  VXLAN Encapsulation
9    NVGRE Encapsulation
10   MPLS Encapsulation   (?)
11   MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
12   VXLAN GPE Encapsulation

 

IMO, 8,9= ,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Would you li= ke to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10?

 

Thanks,<= /span>

weiguo

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6DF8nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 00:39:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 242DA1ACECD for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:39:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gKfIWBP5obcm for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias244.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78AF81ACEC6 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.200]) by omfeda10.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 8315B3741B2 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:39:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 5141415808A for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:39:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.1) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:39:30 +0100 To: References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:39:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.1] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:39:35 -0000 HI John, Weiguo, John E Drake : > > It is needed in order to distinguish between an advertising node that > only supports non-MPLS encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and > non-MPLS encapsulations. An advertising node that only supports MPLS > encapsulation does not need to advertise anything. > By the way, I suggested this to be documented in draft-rosen-idr-tunnel-encaps [1]. Best, -Thomas [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/idr/current/msg14732.html > *From:*Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:08 AM > *To:* Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com; John E Drake > *Cc:* bess@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' > > Jorge, > > Understood, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is > MPLS encapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is > the introduction of tunnel type 10 just for further removing > ambiguity? If i don't use the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN > implementation(RFC 7432), it will also never incur any issue. Am i right? > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge > (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47 > *To:* Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com ; > jdrake@juniper.net > *Cc:* bess@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' > > Weiguo, > > Well, if an RFC7432 implementation does not use the RFC5512 ext > community, the following sentence in the evan-overlay draft should > help interoperability. I personally don’t see any issues. > > If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the > default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation > is assumed. > > Thanks. > > Jorge > > *From: *Haoweiguo > > *Date: *Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM > *To: *Jorge Rabadan >, "sajassi@cisco.com > " >, "jdrake@juniper.net > " > > *Cc: *"bess@ietf.org " > > *Subject: *RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' > > Jorge, > > Thanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, > i'm sorry. > > RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, > like L2TPv3,GRE and IP in IP. For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't > need to be defined specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, > the tunnel type 10 also hasn't been defined. Later, when the EVPN > for overlay network solution was proposed, the tunnel type 10 was > introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VXLAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over > GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are used in both > RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We need > the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which > tunnel(including MPLS tunnel type) should be used. So it > introduced updates on RFC 7432 and will incur some interoperbility > issue for RFC 7432. Am i right? > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] > on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) > [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com > ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01 > *To:* Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com ; > jdrake@juniper.net > *Cc:* bess@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [bess] One question about > 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' > > Weiguo, > > There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 > BGP encap ext community. > > That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks > where you can also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate > to the ingress PE that the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved. > > Thx > > Jorge > > *From: *BESS > on behalf of Haoweiguo > > > *Date: *Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM > *To: *"sajassi@cisco.com " > >, > "jdrake@juniper.net " > > > *Cc: *"bess@ietf.org " > > *Subject: *[bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' > > Hi Ali & John, > > The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how > EVPN can be used for Overlay network, the overlay network > includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS Over GRE. > > In section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel > types are requested as follows: > > 8 VXLAN Encapsulation > 9 NVGRE Encapsulation > 10 MPLS Encapsulation (?) > 11 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation > 12 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation > > IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an > exception. Would you like to explain what's the purpose of > tunnel type 10? > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Thu Nov 12 00:50:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0A91B2A13; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:50:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OkqWOfm4rmf5; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 729521B2A07; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.3]) by omfedm12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 88CF818C306; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:50:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 6529A4C070; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:50:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.5) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:50:20 +0100 References: <5629014C.30508@orange.com> From: Organization: Orange To: BESS Message-ID: <28444_1447318220_564452CC_28444_513_1_564452CB.6020604@orange.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:50:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5629014C.30508@orange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.5] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Cc: Alvaro Retana , BESS Chairs Subject: [bess] IPR issue resulting in an *Extended* Poll for adoption: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-option X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:50:27 -0000 Hi working group, IPR [1] has been disclosed on draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc during the call for adoption (2015-10-26). We regret that this disclosure came this late in the process, and we have to let the working group comment on this call with full awareness of existing IPR. This call for adoption is thus extended to **November 26th**. In parallel, we will work to understand whether this disclosure is late compared to expectations raised in RFC3979 (we haven't yet determined how the set of authors intersect with the set of inventors on the patent). Best, -Thomas [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2700/ 22/10/2015, Thomas Morin : > Hello working group, > > This email starts a two-week poll on adopting > draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc-03 [1] as a working group item. > > Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or > not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). > > This poll runs until **November 13th**. > (3 weeks to account for the busy IETF week) > > > *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that > applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in > compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 > and 5378 for more details). > > ==> *If* you are listed as a document author or contributor please > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any > relevant IPR. > > The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from > each author and contributor. > > If you are not listed as an author or contributor, then please > explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet > been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. > > Thank you, > > Martin & Thomas > bess chairs > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc-03 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Thu Nov 12 06:13:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47821ACD2D for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:13:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N_NCNarw0RUK for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0116.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.116]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C23051ACD16 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.130.155) by SN1PR0501MB1711.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.130.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:12:50 +0000 Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) by SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:12:50 +0000 From: John E Drake To: Haoweiguo , "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , "sajassi@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Thread-Index: AQHRG9ETUP92oWRS5Ua5Lf7oEtipsJ6WArmC//+WFoCAALpxu4AAjp7ggAC0FiGAANqkMA== Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:12:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> , <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jdrake@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; SN1PR0501MB1711; 5:22pyqe9SqWbaS9fSTNDUE5BHWuPBA5mmromN+jj8fnjtBBk8f1zAzFaZeOattqCLPG2+zQ273FIJ9/Hi72KeAz2kDh3QrgY0k5qtt0WFjrFztfR7973MWMfb08GV8IWQTTAgI7a8jPYYQgwtpSXjtg==; 24:m+uqTPnkvwIi2tz3+wh2setshbcCZWe2U4R9SFDMOjnIDn5riWnMoOgeJCGh2/NNYtAoNorNfdKyUaXnhM2pANlSOy+dWiBn8Sxzy/HF1OQ=; 20:aqLvFqOz64m6HJ92GG3puaXieYo72TrLNP9ILMbq95TuJG2ryVxd6PnwqCgG0k8fe2O+HdVn7av5uPn97uF8vQ== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:SN1PR0501MB1711; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014)(108003899814671); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(520078)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:SN1PR0501MB1711; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:SN1PR0501MB1711; x-forefront-prvs: 07584EDBCD x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(66654002)(189002)(164054003)(199003)(377454003)(2501003)(11100500001)(50986999)(54356999)(101416001)(81156007)(74316001)(5004730100002)(87936001)(5001960100002)(76176999)(2950100001)(5001770100001)(97736004)(19625215002)(16236675004)(19609705001)(106356001)(105586002)(66066001)(106116001)(33656002)(122556002)(230783001)(189998001)(19300405004)(10400500002)(19580405001)(76576001)(86362001)(5002640100001)(19580395003)(15975445007)(92566002)(40100003)(102836002)(93886004)(5001920100001)(2900100001)(77096005)(5008740100001)(5007970100001)(99286002)(5003600100002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:SN1PR0501MB1711; H:SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN1PR0501MB17093A72315F562D9F39D1C1C7120SN1PR0501MB1709_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Nov 2015 14:12:50.3162 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR0501MB1711 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:13:03 -0000 --_000_SN1PR0501MB17093A72315F562D9F39D1C1C7120SN1PR0501MB1709_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weiguo, You're welcome. Yours Irrespectively, John From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:17 PM To: John E Drake; Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' John, It's clear, great thanks. Yes, it's needed in order to distinguish between = an advertising node that only support non-MPLS encapsulations and one that = supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations. If has no this MPLS encapsulatio= n type, the node that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations will deemed= to be the node that only support non-MPLS encapsulations by remote EVPN PE= s. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 22:39 To: Haoweiguo; Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, It is needed in order to distinguish between an advertising node that only = supports non-MPLS encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS en= capsulations. An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation do= es not need to advertise anything. Yours Irrespectively, John From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:08 AM To: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com; Jo= hn E Drake Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Jorge, Understood, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is MPLS = encapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is the intro= duction of tunnel type 10 just for further removing ambiguity? If i don't u= se the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN implementation(RFC 7432), it will = also never incur any issue. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jor= ge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.= net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, Well, if an RFC7432 implementation does not use the RFC5512 ext community, = the following sentence in the evan-overlay draft should help interoperabili= ty. I personally don't see any issues. If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed. Thanks. Jorge From: Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM To: Jorge Rabadan >, "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Jorge, Thanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, i'm sorry. RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, like L2TP= v3,GRE and IP in IP. For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defined = specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn= 't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for overlay network solution was prop= osed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VX= LAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are u= sed in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We ne= ed the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MP= LS tunnel type) should be used. So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and w= ill incur some interoperbility issue for RFC 7432. Am i right? Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf = of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01 To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.= net Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Weiguo, There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP encap e= xt community. That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks where you ca= n also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE that= the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved. Thx Jorge From: BESS > on behalf = of Haoweiguo > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM To: "sajassi@cisco.com" >, "jdrake@juniper.net" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Hi Ali & John, The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be us= ed for Overlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS = Over GRE. In section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are request= ed as follows: 8 VXLAN Encapsulation 9 NVGRE Encapsulation 10 MPLS Encapsulation (?) 11 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation 12 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Woul= d you like to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10? Thanks, weiguo --_000_SN1PR0501MB17093A72315F562D9F39D1C1C7120SN1PR0501MB1709_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Weiguo,

 

You’re welcome.

 

Yours Irrespectively,

 

John

 

From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@hu= awei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:17 PM
To: John E Drake; Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

 

J= ohn,

I= t's clear, great thanks. Yes, it's needed in order to distinguish between a= n advertising node that only support non-MPLS encapsulations and one that s= upports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations. If has no this MPLS encapsulation type, the node that supports MPLS and non-M= PLS encapsulations will deemed to be the node that only support non-MPLS en= capsulations by remote EVPN PEs.

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

From:<= /span> John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 22:39
To: Haoweiguo; Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo,

 =

It is needed in order to distinguish = between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS encapsulations and = one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.  An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not need to= advertise anything.

 =

Yours Irrespectively,

 =

John

 =

From: Haowei= guo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:08 AM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); saj= assi@cisco.com; John E Drake
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

 =

J= orge,

U= nderstood, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is MPLS e= ncapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is the introd= uction of tunnel type 10 just for further removing ambiguity? If i don't use the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN implementa= tion(RFC 7432), it will also never incur any issue. Am i right?

 

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

From:<= /span> BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net<= /a>
Cc: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo,

 =

Well, if an RFC7432 impl= ementation does not use the RFC5512 ext community, the following sentence i= n the evan-overlay draft should help interoperability. I personally donR= 17;t see any issues.

 = 

If the =
BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the
 &=
nbsp; default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation
 &=
nbsp; is assumed.

 =

Thanks.

Jorge<= /p>

 =

From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM
To: Jorge Rabadan <jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com>, "sajassi@cisco.com&q= uot; <sajassi@cis= co.com>, "jdrake@junip= er.net" <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

 =

J= orge,

T= hanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, i'm sorry.<= /span>

R= FC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, like L2TPv= 3,GRE and IP in IP.  For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't need to be defi= ned specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, the tunnel type 10 also hasn't been defined. Later, when the EVPN for over= lay network solution was proposed, the tunnel type 10 was introduced to dif= ferentiate MPLS tunnel and VXLAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over GRE tunnel, because s= ame route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are used in both RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We need = the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which tunnel(including MPLS = tunnel type) should be used.  So it introduced updates on RFC 7432 and= will incur some interoperbility issue for RFC 7432. Am i right?

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

 

From:<= /span> BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01
To: Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com; jdrake@juniper.net<= /a>
Cc: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay= -02'

Weiguo, =

 =

There are already implem= entations using value 10 in the RFC5512 BGP encap ext community.=

That is the value you wo= uld have in RFC7432 compliant networks where you can also have overlay tunn= els. Value 10 would indicate to the ingress PE that the route needs an MPLS= tunnel to be resolved.

 =

Thx

Jorge<= /p>

 =

From: BESS <= bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM
To: "saj= assi@cisco.com" <sajassi@cisco.com>, "jdrake@juniper.net" <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'=

 =

H= i Ali & John,

T= he draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how EVPN can be use= d for Overlay network, the overlay network includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS O= ver GRE.

I= n section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel types are requeste= d as follows:

8=     VXLAN Encapsulation
9    NVGRE Encapsulation
10   MPLS Encapsulation   (?)
11   MPLS in GRE Encapsulation
12   VXLAN GPE Encapsulation

 

I= MO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an exception. Would= you like to explain what's the purpose of tunnel type 10?

 

T= hanks,

weiguo

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DQo+IElmIHlvdSBoYXZlIHJlY2VpdmVkIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgaW4gZXJyb3IsIHBsZWFzZSBub3Rp ZnkgdGhlIHNlbmRlciBhbmQgZGVsZXRlDQo+IHRoaXMgbWVzc2FnZSBhbmQgaXRzIGF0dGFjaG1l bnRzLg0KPiBBcyBlbWFpbHMgbWF5IGJlIGFsdGVyZWQsIE9yYW5nZSBpcyBub3QgbGlhYmxlIGZv ciBtZXNzYWdlcyB0aGF0IGhhdmUgYmVlbg0KPiBtb2RpZmllZCwgY2hhbmdlZCBvciBmYWxzaWZp ZWQuDQo+IFRoYW5rIHlvdS4NCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEJFU1MgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEJFU1NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iZXNzDQo= From nobody Thu Nov 12 07:08:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B6271ACCFC for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:08:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.194 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.194 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u_OG-f1gmQiK for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (r-mail2.rd.orange.com [217.108.152.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68591A912C for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8C6415D89A5; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:07:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by r-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FA75D895F; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:07:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:07:59 +0100 To: John E Drake , "bess@ietf.org" References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:07:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:08:04 -0000 Hi John, 2015-11-12, John E Drake: > > Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than in the EVPN Overlay draft? The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft. Best, -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> thomas.morin@orange.com >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:39 AM >> To: bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >> >> HI John, Weiguo, >> >> John E Drake : >>> >>> It is needed in order to distinguish between an advertising node that >>> only supports non-MPLS encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and >>> non-MPLS encapsulations. An advertising node that only supports MPLS >>> encapsulation does not need to advertise anything. >>> >> >> By the way, I suggested this to be documented in draft-rosen-idr-tunnel- >> encaps [1]. >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas >> >> [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/idr/current/msg14732.html >> >> >>> *From:*Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:08 AM >>> *To:* Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); sajassi@cisco.com; John E Drake >>> *Cc:* bess@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >>> >>> Jorge, >>> >>> Understood, many thanks. Now that the default tunnel encapsulation is >>> MPLS encapsulation, the tunnel type 10 seems to be unneccessary. So is >>> the introduction of tunnel type 10 just for further removing >>> ambiguity? If i don't use the tunnel type 10 in MPLS based EVPN >>> implementation(RFC 7432), it will also never incur any issue. Am i right? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> weiguo >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> *From:*BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge >>> (Jorge) [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:47 >>> *To:* Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com ; >>> jdrake@juniper.net >>> *Cc:* bess@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >>> >>> Weiguo, >>> >>> Well, if an RFC7432 implementation does not use the RFC5512 ext >>> community, the following sentence in the evan-overlay draft should >>> help interoperability. I personally don’t see any issues. >>> >>> If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then the >>> default MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation >>> is assumed. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> *From: *Haoweiguo > > >>> *Date: *Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM >>> *To: *Jorge Rabadan >> >, "sajassi@cisco.com >>> " >> >, "jdrake@juniper.net >>> " >> > >>> *Cc: *"bess@ietf.org " >> > >>> *Subject: *RE: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >>> >>> Jorge, >>> >>> Thanks for your explanations. However, i still can't understand, >>> i'm sorry. >>> >>> RFC 5512 only defines IP tunnel type and encapsulation attribute, >>> like L2TPv3,GRE and IP in IP. For RFC 5512, MPLS tunnel doesn't >>> need to be defined specifically, it is default case. In RFC 7432, >>> the tunnel type 10 also hasn't been defined. Later, when the EVPN >>> for overlay network solution was proposed, the tunnel type 10 was >>> introduced to differentiate MPLS tunnel and VXLAN/NVGRE/MPLS Over >>> GRE tunnel, because same route type 1,2,3,4 and 5 are used in both >>> RFC 7432 and the draft 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'. We need >>> the tunnel type to clearly notify peer EVPN PE which >>> tunnel(including MPLS tunnel type) should be used. So it >>> introduced updates on RFC 7432 and will incur some interoperbility >>> issue for RFC 7432. Am i right? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> weiguo >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> *From:*BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] >>> on behalf of Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) >>> [jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com >>> ] >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2015 0:01 >>> *To:* Haoweiguo; sajassi@cisco.com ; >>> jdrake@juniper.net >>> *Cc:* bess@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [bess] One question about >>> 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >>> >>> Weiguo, >>> >>> There are already implementations using value 10 in the RFC5512 >>> BGP encap ext community. >>> >>> That is the value you would have in RFC7432 compliant networks >>> where you can also have overlay tunnels. Value 10 would indicate >>> to the ingress PE that the route needs an MPLS tunnel to be resolved. >>> >>> Thx >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> *From: *BESS >> > on behalf of Haoweiguo >>> > >>> *Date: *Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 1:05 AM >>> *To: *"sajassi@cisco.com " >>> >, >>> "jdrake@juniper.net " >>> > >>> *Cc: *"bess@ietf.org " >> > >>> *Subject: *[bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >>> >>> Hi Ali & John, >>> >>> The draft of 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' describes how >>> EVPN can be used for Overlay network, the overlay network >>> includes VXLAN, NVGRE and MPLS Over GRE. >>> >>> In section 13 IANA considerations, several overlay tunnel >>> types are requested as follows: >>> >>> 8 VXLAN Encapsulation >>> 9 NVGRE Encapsulation >>> 10 MPLS Encapsulation (?) >>> 11 MPLS in GRE Encapsulation >>> 12 VXLAN GPE Encapsulation >>> >>> IMO, 8,9,11 and 12 are all overlay encapsulations, 10 is an >>> exception. Would you like to explain what's the purpose of >>> tunnel type 10? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> weiguo >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BESS mailing list >>> BESS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> >> From nobody Thu Nov 12 07:25:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FA01ACEA9 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:25:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i2P1LArPF6Qk for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias244.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47EB61ACEA7 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.201]) by omfeda09.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 7C3ABC01FC; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:24:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 5D362384049; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:24:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.3) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:24:57 +0100 To: , Wim Henderickx References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:24:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010108070209090704070006" X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.3] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.12.142416 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:25:02 -0000 --------------010108070209090704070006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Wim, Thanks for your feedback. With my co-chair hat, let met ask a few questions for the sake of well understanding the issue you raise. Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > I don’t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major > flaw in this proposal: > Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS > IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don’t. This comment only relates to a subset of the encaps proposed in the solution, right ? (e.g. does not apply to MPLS/GRE and MPLS/UDP) On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ? > The draft [...] introduces a lot of complexity for nothing. Can you detail what you consider is a lot of complexity ? > > If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in > a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using > VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS > label we defined in RFC4364. My understanding of this draft's value is the fact that it avoids having service-label related state (forwarding and BGP state) on the routers at the DC-WAN border. This is one of the typical property of 4364 option C. It is not obvious at all to me, based on existing spec, how to get the same benefit on the DC-side router in an architecture where the DC-side router also terminates the overlay tunnels. Do you challenge the goal itself (not having service-label related state on the overlay tunnels router) or suggest that the same benefit can be achieved with less complexity ? -Thomas _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --------------010108070209090704070006 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Wim,

Thanks for your feedback.

With my co-chair hat, let met ask a few questions for the sake of well understanding the issue you raise.

Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
I don’t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major flaw in this proposal:
Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don’t.

This comment only relates to a subset of the encaps proposed in the solution, right ?
(e.g. does not apply to MPLS/GRE and MPLS/UDP)

On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?

The draft [...] introduces a lot of complexity for nothing.

Can you detail what you consider is a lot of complexity ?


If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we defined in RFC4364.

My understanding of this draft's value is the fact that it avoids having service-label related state (forwarding and BGP state) on the routers at the DC-WAN border.  This is one of the typical property of 4364 option C.    It is not obvious at all to me, based on existing spec, how to get the same benefit on the DC-side router in an architecture where the DC-side router also terminates the overlay tunnels.

Do you challenge the goal itself (not having service-label related state on the overlay tunnels router) or suggest that the same benefit can be achieved with less complexity ?

-Thomas
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--------------010108070209090704070006-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 07:37:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7DF1ACF19 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:37:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kN0TSKCvmZjr for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ED511ACF1C for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 3E655BBEEFB3; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:37:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tACFbcv4018413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:37:38 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:37:38 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6YcSAAgAAUTQA= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:37:37 +0000 Message-ID: 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TeM5C9iPLKl8 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A91B1B2B13 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 10F66C00C8; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:46:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.1.183]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id DCCDD1A0056; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:46:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.5) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:46:22 +0100 To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:46:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020808050202090800040307" X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.5] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:46:28 -0000 --------------020808050202090800040307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wim, (below) 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > > Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >> I don’t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major >> flaw in this proposal: >> Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS >> IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don’t. > > This comment only relates to a subset of the encaps proposed in the > solution, right ? > (e.g. does not apply to MPLS/GRE and MPLS/UDP) > > WH> even for the encapsulations that don’t have this issue, 1 the UDP > port proposal breaks some of the protocols so we should never do this, Sorry to insist, but where do some protocol break when used with a non-standard port as dstport ? > 2 for the IP addressing it is way to complex to configure and maintain. I agree with that. > As such the proposal for me would be to do the 3 label stack as we > have in standard MPLS option C which you can do with the > encapsulations I mentioned. > > > On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with > a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a > sender based on an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? > >> The draft [...] introduces a lot of complexity for nothing. > > Can you detail what you consider is a lot of complexity ? > WH> UDP ports and IP address prefix maintenance I agree for the alternative in which multiple IPs are used. But I don't think using multiple port would be complex, the configuration on the box can simply consist of a range of ports to use and the rest would be (quite simply) automated. > >> >> If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in >> a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using >> VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS >> label we defined in RFC4364. > > My understanding of this draft's value is the fact that it avoids > having service-label related state (forwarding and BGP state) on the > routers at the DC-WAN border. This is one of the typical property of > 4364 option C. It is not obvious at all to me, based on existing > spec, how to get the same benefit on the DC-side router in an > architecture where the DC-side router also terminates the overlay tunnels. > > Do you challenge the goal itself (not having service-label related > state on the overlay tunnels router) or suggest that the same benefit > can be achieved with less complexity ? > > WH> the proposal I mentioned is achieving the same goal w/o the > complexity in the DC GW and using already standardised mechanisms to > do so. Let me try to recap. For traffic going from the DC to the WAN, the DC/WAN router terminating the overlay will have to translate from for instance an MPLS/UDP/IP encap into an MPLS/MPLS(/MPLS) encap ; assuming that the bottom label isn't changed the information to determine the other label(s) has to be derived from the UDP or IP header. The draft we discuss relies on the UDP port (or IP address). You mention a 3-label option C, are you suggesting the use of MPLS/MPLS/UDP where the top MPLS label would play the role of the middle label in an typical 3-label option-C stack, and would be used to determine the destination-PE label between ASBRs ? Best, -Thomas _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --------------020808050202090800040307 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Wim,

(below)

2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):

Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
I don’t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major flaw in this proposal:
Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don’t.

This comment only relates to a subset of the encaps proposed in the solution, right ?
(e.g. does not apply to MPLS/GRE and MPLS/UDP)

WH> even for the encapsulations that don’t have this issue, 1 the UDP port proposal breaks some of the protocols so we should never do this,

Sorry to insist, but where do some protocol break when used with a non-standard port as dstport ?

2 for the IP addressing it is way to complex to configure and maintain.

I agree with that.

As such the proposal for me would be to do the 3 label stack as we have in standard MPLS option C which you can do with the encapsulations I mentioned.


On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?

Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?



The draft [...] introduces a lot of complexity for nothing.

Can you detail what you consider is a lot of complexity ?
WH> UDP ports and IP address prefix maintenance

I agree for the alternative in which multiple IPs are used.
But I don't think using multiple port would be complex, the configuration on the box can simply consist of a range of ports to use and the rest would be (quite simply) automated.




If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we defined in RFC4364.

My understanding of this draft's value is the fact that it avoids having service-label related state (forwarding and BGP state) on the routers at the DC-WAN border.  This is one of the typical property of 4364 option C.    It is not obvious at all to me, based on existing spec, how to get the same benefit on the DC-side router in an architecture where the DC-side router also terminates the overlay tunnels.

Do you challenge the goal itself (not having service-label related state on the overlay tunnels router) or suggest that the same benefit can be achieved with less complexity ?

WH> the proposal I mentioned is achieving the same goal w/o the complexity in the DC GW and using already standardised mechanisms to do so.

Let me try to recap.

For traffic going from the DC to the WAN, the DC/WAN router terminating the overlay will have to translate from for instance an MPLS/UDP/IP encap into an MPLS/MPLS(/MPLS) encap ; assuming that the bottom label isn't changed the information to determine the other label(s) has to be derived from the UDP or IP header.  The draft we discuss relies on the UDP port (or IP address).

You mention a 3-label option C, are you suggesting the use of MPLS/MPLS/UDP where the top MPLS label would play the role of the middle label in an typical 3-label option-C stack, and would be used to determine the destination-PE label between ASBRs ?

Best,

-Thomas

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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--------------020808050202090800040307-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 11:50:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29E51B331B; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:50:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0PU9fjfM06Vc; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D9D51B3318; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:50:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=22428; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447357855; x=1448567455; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=2STHukLQBwr122xfryF51KuadMfcd5+8i3e4TctiG30=; b=NyGpiLgSwhom8oyXRa10jw+/g1C/ihPPPmA/R9dI/Q34IrmSLmLxUYST CMwrzxfHcm0KRyhXs7clvUP4Gj2U3j0Qh/Mf8gzOCWGqMOIcbGW1qQp7H An8eOR0+TP40U4bTyKDhERPtexGNqmh8vlZM8y2hNo9Zw223dFg8fyY5X Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D0AQDa7ERW/4YNJK1egm5NgUi+OQENgWWGEIFAOBQBAQEBAQEBfwuENwRnEhIBgQAnBA4ZB4gTxDQBAQEBAQUBAQEBAQEdhlQBiTKFBAWWSAGHSEWFGYFbhECDJYoxiFMBHwEBQoIRBRiBVoRmQoEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,283,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="207580422" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 19:50:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (xch-aln-002.cisco.com [173.36.7.12]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tACJorQV002800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:50:53 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:50:52 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:50:52 -0600 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-03 Thread-Index: AQHRHYNvyjwvQsIUU0exAcHYeBpG+Q== Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:50:52 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D2688C8AE97D0aretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "VIGOUREUX, MARTIN \(MARTIN\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:50:58 -0000 --_000_D2688C8AE97D0aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I just finished reading this document. As mentioned by the WG chairs at the meeting in Yokohama, the technology in= bess can be complex and hard to penetrate for the average (or novice) read= er. While the target of documents like this one is not always the average = (or novice) reader, it is important that those readers (including the IESG = and other review directorates) are able to at least understand what's going= on. Most of my comments (below) are around readability/clarity. In general I found the document (relatively) not hard to follow, if you rea= d it end-to-end =97 it may be harder for someone to jump in and read/review= a specific section without the benefit of building up to it. Because of= the length of the document, it would be nice to include a "road map" to gu= ide the reader (in general: "Section x talks about X, Section y covers Y, e= tc."). It might be easier to include references to the specific sections i= n 1.4 (Overview). This is a long standards track document, so it is bound to have a lot of no= rmative language. On one hand I don't want to go overboard with explicitly= mandating every little step..but at the same time we want to be clear as t= o what is "actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which = has potential for causing harm" [RFC2119]. Due to the potential of bad con= figurations resulting in incomplete/illdefined extranets, I can see why the= behavior around RTs would require normative language. However, there are = some places where the use of rfc2119 keywords may be lacking, not needed or= inconsistent. An example of inconsistency is this paragraph from Section = 7.2.3.1. (When Inter-Site Shared Trees Are Used): If VRF-S exports a Source Active A-D route that contains C-S in the Multicast Source field of its NLRI, and if that VRF also exports a UMH-eligible route matching C-S, the Source Active A-D route MUST carry at least one RT in common with the UMH-eligible route. The RT must be chosen such that the following condition holds: if VRF-R contains an extranet C-receiver allowed by policy to receive extranet traffic from C-S, then VRF-R imports both the UMH-eligible route and the Source Active A-D route. .. If the "route MUST carry at least one RT", why isn't the condition to be= met also normative? I don't want to belabor on this specific case, it is = just an example. However, I would appreciate it if the authors would scan = the document for required or unneeded normative language. I pointed at som= e cases in my comments below. I do have a couple of items that I think are Major (see below) that I would= like to see addressed before starting the IETF Last Call. Major: 1. Section 1.3. (Clarification on Use of Route Distinguishers) uses the = word "REQUIREs" in a couple of places. In a strict manner, the rfc2119 key= words is "REQUIRED". While I think that the meaning of using "REQUIREs" s= hould be obvious, please rephrase the text to strictly use the rfc2119 lang= uage. 2. Section 10 (Security Considerations) * What is a "VPN security violation"? It is mentioned in several pl= aces, but it is not explicitly defined. Please either add a reference or b= e clear in what it is. * Misconfiguration is a significant risk, for example assigning the = wrong RTs to the wrong routes. I think that risk should be mentioned. Minor: 1. Section 1.1. (Terminology): "We will sometimes say that a route "matc= hes" a particular host if the route matches an IP address of the host." Gi= ven the previous definition (in the same paragraph) of "match" ("the addres= s prefix of the given route is the longest match in that VRF for the given = IP address") and the use of match there makes it unclear whether you're tal= king about a host route or just the longest match. 2. Section 1.3. (Clarification on Use of Route Distinguishers) * This section explains the "unique VRF per RD" condition a couple o= f times =97 even though the explanation seems to be the same, it would be n= ice if it was explained only once. * ""default RD" (discussed above)" Where this text appears is in fa= ct the first time that a "default RD" is mentioned. I'm guessing that this= refers to the RD in the "unique VRF per RD" condition, but please don't ma= ke the reader guess. 3. Section 4.1. (UMH-Eligible Routes) The "MAY" in the second paragraph= appears to be part of the example. Suggested new text: * The UMH-eligible extranet C-source routes do not necessarily have = to be unicast routes, they MAY be SAFI-129 routes (see Section 5.1.1 of = [RFC6513]). If one wants, e.g., a VPN-R C-receiver to be able to receiv= e extranet C-flows from C-sources in VPN-S, but one does not want any VPN= -R system to be able to send unicast traffic to those C-sources, then the= UMH-eligible routes exported from VPN-S and imported by VPN-R may be SAF= I-129 routes. The SAFI-129 routes are used only for UMH determination, = but not for unicast routing. 4. Section 4.2. (Distribution of Unicast Routes Matching C-RPs and DRs) = "It follows that if a VRF contains C-S, but does not contain a C-RP for C-= G, then the VRF must import a unicast route matching a C-RP for C-G." and "= Similarly, if a VRF contains a C-RP for C-G, but does not contain C-S, the = VRF must import a unicast route matching the DR for C-S." Should those "mu= st" be a "MUST"? 5. Section 4.4.1. (The Extranet Source Extended Community) "=85only use= ful when all the extranet routes from a given VRF are exported with exactly= the same set of RTs. (Cf. Section 4.3.1 of [RFC4364], which does provide= a mechanism=85" Is there any inference that should be made from this tex= t? Should the Extranet Source Extended Community not be used when the mech= anism in rfc4364 is used? Any downsides if both are used? 6. Section 5.2. (Considerations for Particular Inclusive Tunnel Types) * Please include a reference (or definition) for "inclusive tunnel" = (maybe in the Terminology). I couldn't find one in rfc6513, but did in rfc= 7582. * The third paragraph ("In order for VRF-S to set up the P2MP=85") s= eems to explain what is needed for the setup, which is something that I ass= ume is standardized in a different document. If so, then the "MUST" should= n't be normative in this document. s/MUST/must 7. Section 7.2.1. (Intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes) "As specified in [RFC651= 4]=85the RTs carried by that route MUST be chosen=85" That "MUST" is reall= y in reference to rfc6514, so it shouldn't be normative in this document. = If you want to stress the "MUST", then one solution could be to quote the r= elevant text; otherwise s/MUST/must 8. It would be nice if section names were used in addition to section nu= mbers when referring to them in the text =97 that would make it easier to r= ecall (or look forward to) the text w/out having to go look at the TOC over= and over. [This point may be able to be addressed by the RFC Editor.] It= looks like you started doing this in some places in Section 7, but it is n= ot consistent. 9. In several places the text reads: "This document provides procedures= =85" Please include a reference to the section where those procedures are. 10. Please expand on first use: * s/S-PMSI/Selective Provider Multicast Service Interface (S-PMSI) * s/SSM/source-specific multicast (SSM) * s/I-PMSI/Inclusive-PMSI (I-PMSI) * s/MI-PMSI/Multidirectional I-PMSI (MI-PMSI) 11. References: Update the reference to rfc4601 to draft-ietf-pim-rfc4601= bis. Nits: 1. Some replacements: * s/misdelivery of data in those scenarios are outlined in those Sec= tion 2.3/misdelivery of data in those scenarios are outlined in Section 2.3 * (6.3.1) s/and Each such/and each such * (7.1) s/"corresponds to" to/"corresponds" to --_000_D2688C8AE97D0aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <828CFAE7414EAB4982C685A4127BC97D@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!

I just finished reading this document.

As mentioned by the WG chairs at the meeting in Yokohama, the technology in= bess can be complex and hard to penetrate for the average (or novice) read= er.  While the target of documents like this one is not always th= e average (or novice) reader, it is important that those readers (including the IESG and other review directorates) are = able to at least understand what's going on.  Most of my comments (bel= ow) are around readability/clarity.  

In general I found the document (relatively) not hard to follow, if you rea= d it end-to-end =97 it may be harder for someone to jump in and read/review= a specific section without the benefit of building up to it.    = Because of the length of the document, it would be nice to include a "road map" to guide the reader (in general:= "Section x talks about X, Section y covers Y, etc.").  = ;It might be easier to include references to the specific sections in 1.4 (= Overview).

This is a long standards track document, so it is bound to have a lot of no= rmative language.  On one hand I don't want to go overboard with = explicitly mandating every little step..but at the same time we want to be = clear as to what is "actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm&q= uot; [RFC2119].  Due to the potential of bad configurations resul= ting in incomplete/illdefined extranets, I can see why the behavior around = RTs would require normative language.  However, there are some places where the use of rfc2119 keywords may be lacking, no= t needed or inconsistent.  An example of inconsistency is this pa= ragraph from Section 7.2.3.1. (When Inter-Site Shared Trees Are Used):

   If VRF-S exports a Source Active A-D route that contains C-S= in the
   Multicast Source field of its NLRI, and if that VRF also exp= orts a
   UMH-eligible route matching C-S, the Source Active A-D route= MUST
   carry at least one RT in common with the UMH-eligible route.=   The RT
   must be chosen such that the following condition holds: if V= RF-R
   contains an extranet C-receiver allowed by policy to receive= extranet
   traffic from C-S, then VRF-R imports both the UMH-eligible r= oute and
   the Source Active A-D route.

.. If the "route MUST carry at least one RT", why isn't the condi= tion to be met also normative?  I don't want to belabor on this s= pecific case, it is just an example.  However, I would appreciate it i= f the authors would scan the document for required or unneeded normative language.  I pointed at some cases in my comments below.

I do have a couple of items that I think are Major (see below) that I would= like to see addressed before starting the IETF Last Call.






Major:
  1. Section 1.3. (Clarification on Use of Route Distinguishers) uses the wo= rd "REQUIREs" in a couple of places.  In a strict manne= r, the rfc2119 key words is "REQUIRED".  While I think = that the meaning of using "REQUIREs" should be obvious, please re= phrase the text to strictly use the rfc2119 language.
  2. Section 10 (Securit= y Considerations)
    • What is a "VPN security violation"?  It is mentioned in = several places, but it is not explicitly defined.  Please either add a= reference or be clear in what it is.
    • Misconfiguration is a signifi= cant risk, for example assigning the wrong RTs to the wrong routes.  I= think that risk should be mentioned.

Minor:
  1. Section 1.1. (Terminology): "We will sometimes say that a route "= matches" a particular host if the route matches an IP address of the h= ost."  Given the previous definition (in the same paragraph) of &= quot;match" ("the address prefix of the given route is the longes= t match in that VRF for the given IP address") and the use of match the= re makes it unclear whether you're talking about a host route or just the l= ongest match.
  2. Section 1.3. (Clarification on Use of Route Distinguishers)
    • This section explains the "unique VRF per RD" condition a cou= ple of times =97 even though the explanation seems to be the same, it would= be nice if it was explained only once.
    • ""default RD"= ; (discussed above)"  Where this text appears is in fact the= first time that a "default RD" is mentioned.  I'm gues= sing that this refers to the RD in the "unique VRF per RD" condit= ion, but please don't make the reader guess.
  3. Section 4.1. (UMH-Eligible Routes)  The "MAY" in the se= cond paragraph appears to be part of the example.  Suggested new = text:
    • The UMH-eligible extranet C-source routes do not necessarily have to&nb= sp;  be unicast routes, they MAY be SAFI-129 routes (see Section 5.1.1= of   [RFC6513]).  If one wants, e.g., a VPN-R C-receiv= er to be able   to receive extranet C-flows from C-sources in VPN-S, but one does not   want any VPN-R system to be able to se= nd unicast traffic to those   C-sources, then the UMH-eligible ro= utes exported from VPN-S and   imported by VPN-R may be SAFI-129 = routes.  The SAFI-129 routes are    used only= for UMH determination, but not for unicast routing.
  4. Section 4.2. (Distribution of Unicast Routes Matching C-RPs and DRs) &= nbsp;"It follows that if a VRF contains C-S, but does not contain a C-= RP for C-G, then the VRF must import a unicast route matching a C-RP for C-= G." and "Similarly, if a VRF contains a C-RP for C-G, but does not contain C-S, the VRF must import a unicast route matchin= g the DR for C-S."  Should those "must" be a "= ;MUST"?
  5. Section 4.4.1. (The Extranet Source Extended Community)  "= =85only useful when all the extranet routes from a given VRF are exported w= ith exactly the same set of RTs.  (Cf.  Section 4.3.1 o= f [RFC4364], which does provide a mechanism=85"   Is there a= ny inference that should be made from this text?  Should the Extranet Source = Extended Community not be used when the mechanism in rfc4364 is used? =  Any downsides if both are used?
  6. Section 5.2. (Considerations for Particular Inclusive Tunnel Types)  
    • Please include a reference (or definition) for "inclusive tunnel&q= uot; (maybe in the Terminology).  I couldn't find one in rfc6513,= but did in rfc7582.
    • The third paragraph ("In order for VRF-S = to set up the P2MP=85") seems to explain what is needed for the setup,= which is something that I assume is standardized in a different document.&= nbsp; If so, then the "MUST" shouldn't be normative in this = document.  s/MUST/must
  7. Section 7.2.1. (Intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes)  "As specified i= n [RFC6514]=85the RTs carried by that route MUST be chosen=85" &n= bsp;That "MUST" is really in reference to rfc6514, so it shouldn'= t be normative in this document.  If you want to stress the "= ;MUST", then one solution could be to quote the relevant text; otherwise s/MUST/must
    8. It would be nice if section names were used in addition to section numbers = when referring to them in the text =97 that would make it easier to recall = (or look forward to) the text w/out having to go look at the TOC over and o= ver.  [This point may be able to be addressed by the RFC Editor.]  It looks like you started doing this i= n some places in Section 7, but it is not consistent.
  8. In several places the text reads: "This document provides procedures= =85"  Please include a reference to the section where those = procedures are.
  9. Please expand on first use:
    • s/S-PMSI/Selective Provider Multicast Service Interface (S-PMSI)
      •  s/SSM/source-specific multicast (SSM)
    •  s/I-PMSI/Inclus= ive-PMSI (I-PMSI)
    •  s/MI-PMSI/Multidirectional I-PMSI (MI-PMSI)=
  10. References: Update the reference to rfc4601 to draft-ietf-pim-rfc4601bis.
Nits:
  1. Some replacements:
    • s/misdelivery of data in those scenarios are outlined in those Section = 2.3/misdelivery of data in those scenarios are outlined in Section 2.3
      • =
    • (6.3.1) s/and Each such/and each such
    • (7.1) s/"corresponds= to" to/"corresponds" to
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ESMTPS id 597F41B33E9 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 12:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 6C236E946DD99; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:06:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tACK6BJs026061 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:06:11 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:06:07 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6YcSAAgAAUTQCAAAJygIAASIkA Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:06:03 +0000 Message-ID: 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bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75ADC1B3CC5 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:44:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p8lYWy3zb9Zu for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89D8C1B3CC1 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEA47083; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:44:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:44:12 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:44:08 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nr Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:44:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D8127nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.56454088.005E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 36029bc2f9953782e2e270ed3eaad1c6 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:44:44 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D8127nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wim, It is used for layer 3 VPN CE device to visit IP based overlay data center = network. For layer 3 traffic forwarding, the MAC address in VXLAN/NVGRE is = restricted only in data center inside domain. For the traffic from data cen= ter inside to outside, the inner MAC address(destination MAC is ASBR-d's M= AC, src MAC is NVE's MAC) in VXLAN/NVGRE will be dropped at ASBR-d, only IP= payload will continue to be carried into MPLS network. I can emphasize thi= s point in my later version, it doesn't have much impact on the whole solut= ion. This draft also is suitable for VXLAN-GPE and MPLSoGRE/MPLSoUDP network to = interconnect with MPLS VPN network. In VXLAN-GPE, it supports IP in IP enca= psulation, so no inner MAC concerns. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.= henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:33 To: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc I don=92t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major flaw= in this proposal: Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS IP-VPN= s. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don=92t. The draft does n= ot talk about any of this and introduces a lot of complexity for nothing. If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in a DC = I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using VXLAN-GPE,= MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we define= d in RFC4364. --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D8127nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Wim,

It is used for layer 3 VPN CE device to visit IP based = overlay data center network. For layer 3 traffic forwarding, the MAC addres= s in VXLAN/NVGRE is restricted only in data center inside domain. For the t= raffic from data center inside to outside,  the inner MAC address(destination MAC is ASBR-d's MAC, src = MAC is NVE's MAC) in VXLAN/NVGRE will be dropped at ASBR-d, only IP payload= will continue to be carried into MPLS network. I can emphasize this point = in my later version, it doesn't have much impact on the whole solution.

This draft also is suitable for VXLAN-GPE and MPLSoGRE/= MPLSoUDP network to interconnect with MPLS VPN network. In VXLAN-GPE, it su= pports IP in IP encapsulation, so no inner MAC concerns.

 

Thanks,

weiguo

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on beha= lf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:33
To: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

I don=92t s= upport the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major flaw in this pr= oposal:
Basically t= he encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NV= GRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don=92t. The draft does not talk abo= ut any of this and introduces a lot of complexity for nothing.

If we want = to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in a DC I recommend= to do an informational RFC that describes this using VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE o= r MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we defined in RFC4364.
--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D8127nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 21:00:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01241B4007 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:00:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xkIld_5XNyf8 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A571F1B4001 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:00:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 6B0932A0E1DB5; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:00:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAD5072U005829 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:00:07 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:00:07 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LAA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:00:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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--_000_EFCC769D6A4B4EAB9282A31CCDD0FDB5alcatellucentcom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 00:58:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1371A21AE for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:58:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.893 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.893 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FO2UukoiE_UH for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (p-mail2.rd.orange.com [161.106.1.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C951A21A5 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 53668E300B2; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:57:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by p-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A4DE300B1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:57:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:57:56 +0100 To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:57:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080608030700020000060607" Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:58:00 -0000 --------------080608030700020000060607 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software-based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementations constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >> On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used >> with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a >> sender based on an ARP request when needed ? > > Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? > > WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? --------------080608030700020000060607 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be ready to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementations constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?

Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

WH> yes

I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?


--------------080608030700020000060607-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 06:11:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DAD61A88C9 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:11:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9LqPmXHtDWVC for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0112.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D50C81A88B3 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.130.155) by SN1PR0501MB2014.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.227.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 14:11:30 +0000 Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) by SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 14:11:30 +0000 From: John E Drake To: "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' Thread-Index: AQHRG9ETUP92oWRS5Ua5Lf7oEtipsJ6WArmC//+WFoCAALpxu4AAjp7ggAExyYCAAGclgIAABWeAgAF+THA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 14:11:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Nov 2015 14:11:30.5880 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR0501MB2014 Archived-At: Cc: "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 14:11:35 -0000 VGhvbWFzLA0KDQpJIHNwb2tlIHdpdGggRXJpYyBhbmQgQWxpIGFuZCB3ZSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRv IGNoYW5nZSBib3RoIHRoZSBvdmVybGF5IGRyYWZ0IGFuZCB0aGUgdHVubmVsIGVuY2FwcyBkcmFm 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LCBhbmQgZXhpc3QgaW4NCj4gYW55IGNvbnRleHQgd2hlcmUgZGlmZmVyZW50IGtpbmRzIG9mIE1Q TFMoL3gpIGVuY2FwcyBjYW4gYmUgbWl4ZWQgKEUtVlBODQo+IG5vbi1vdmVybGF5LCBJUCBWUE5z KSwgd2hpY2ggaXMgYWRkcmVzc2VkIGJ5IEVyaWMncyBkcmFmdC4NCj4gDQo+IEJlc3QsDQo+IA0K PiAtVGhvbWFzDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Nov 13 06:48:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89EEA1A908A for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:48:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZLEqC7MF0HWC for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bhoKj6sblNJm; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.orange.com (p-mail1.rd.orange.com [161.106.1.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3844A1A8AE6; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 34462410268; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:31:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by p-mail1.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DB9410266; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:31:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:31:15 +0100 From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange To: BESS Message-ID: <56460243.4060404@orange.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:31:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: IDR Chairs , BESS Chairs Subject: [bess] IDR accepting post-WGLC comments on draft-ietf-idr-rtc-no-rt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 15:31:33 -0000 Hi working group, draft-ietf-idr-rtc-no-rt has passed working group last call in IDR on June 22th and the shepherd noticed that considering that specs being worked on in BESS are the primary use case, comments from BESS working group could have been solicited. Hence, IDR chairs have proposed to accept comments on these specs until November 27th to let BESS contributors the opportunity to comment. Please send any comment you have on the idr mailing list. Best, -Thomas/Martin From nobody Fri Nov 13 08:10:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BBAE1A8F4E for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:10:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id snt8tBemUcAZ for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85CD01A8F42 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAH36454; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:10:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.130) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:10:33 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:10:26 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcA== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:10:25 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.56460B7A.0274, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: e8c1d7eec0e2442d56988a6c47018fe3 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:10:41 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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(PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6sWp4KcPSxiJ for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias244.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AA8E1AD338 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.200]) by omfeda12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id BE49B3B4297; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:36:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 9946C158077; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:36:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.5) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:36:55 +0100 To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:36:54 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060001000403050704000802" X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.5] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:37:01 -0000 --------------060001000403050704000802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Wim, 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > Thomas, we need a solution that is implementable and will scale in > control/data-plane. As such the solution I outline is standardised > today and does not need new extensions in control/data-plane. Hence > informational draft and can be implemented if there is market demand. The above argument would fully make sense to me if support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) was common place in ToRs or vswitches. > With respect to MAC you need to address both directions and does not > make sense to manage this if it is not required/doe snot add value. On VXLAN and the Ethernet header: it looks to me that addressing both direction is just a matter of documenting in the draft (if not already there) what is the expected behavior for VXLAN/NVGRE. But VXLAN and NVGRE are not the only encaps proposed in the specs anyway. Compared to 3-label option C, my understanding is that the added-value is to not require the support of an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) encap in ToRs and vswitches. The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) Note that the 3-label option C approach with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) encap also requires the introduction of a control plane in the DC (possibly in an 'SDN' controller) to learn and advertise the middle MPLS label. Whether one consider that the best path to a working solution may also depend on the context. Best, -Thomas > > From: Thomas Morin > > Organization: Orange > Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 > To: Wim Henderickx > > Cc: "bess@ietf.org " > > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > Hi Wim, > > I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to > implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports > (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware > implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing > multiple IPs would be operationally viable. > > However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you > propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) > encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported > or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this > kind of encap, and even software-based switches may not be ready to > support that today). > > My take is that having different options to adapt to various > implementations constraints we may have would have value. > > (+ one question below on VXLAN...) > > -Thomas > > > 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>> On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used >>> with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by >>> a sender based on an ARP request when needed ? >> >> Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? >> >> WH> yes > > I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --------------060001000403050704000802 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Wim,

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
Thomas, we need a solution that is implementable and will scale in control/data-plane. As such the solution I outline is standardised today and does not need new extensions in control/data-plane. Hence informational draft and can be implemented if there is market demand.

The above argument would fully make sense to me if support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) was common place in ToRs or vswitches.

With respect to MAC you need to address both directions and does not make sense to manage this if it is not required/doe snot add value.

On VXLAN and the Ethernet header: it looks to me that addressing both direction is just a matter of documenting in the draft (if not already there) what is the expected behavior for VXLAN/NVGRE. But VXLAN and NVGRE are not the only encaps proposed in the specs anyway.

Compared to 3-label option C, my understanding is that the added-value is to not require the support of an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) encap in ToRs and vswitches.   

The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer:
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

Note that the 3-label option C approach with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) encap also requires the introduction of a control plane in the DC (possibly in an 'SDN' controller) to learn and advertise the middle MPLS label.  Whether one consider that the best path to a working solution may also depend on the context.

Best,
 
-Thomas



From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be ready to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementations constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?

Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

WH> yes

I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?


 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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--------------060001000403050704000802-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 08:46:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822931B2A54; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:46:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4X5jMb56TqLN; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias243.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C33241B29E7; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:46:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.198]) by omfeda12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 5997E3B452B; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:46:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfeda05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0828818004F; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:46:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.3) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:46:01 +0100 To: John E Drake , "bess@ietf.org" References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:46:01 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.3] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Cc: IDR , "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:46:05 -0000 John, (Cc'ing IDR.) 2015-11-13, John E Drake: > > I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the > overlay draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows. > > For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3: > > "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then > thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is > assumed." > > With the following: > > "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order to > distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS > encapsulations. An advertising node that only supports MPLS > encapsulation does not need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel > types; i.e., if the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not > present, then either MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured > encapsulation is assumed." Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt. > > For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the > choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs." > > With the following: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the > choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if none > of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path SHOULD > NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel." I think that the above will technically work. *However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text explanation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in the overlay draft) in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide the smooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type applies ? > > We hope this is satisfactory. Close, but not quite there yet :) Best, -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM >> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org >> Cc: Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >> >> Hi John, >> >> 2015-11-12, John E Drake: >>> >>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than in the >> EVPN Overlay draft? >> >> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and exist in >> any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be mixed (E-VPN >> non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft. >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Fri Nov 13 09:12:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA521B2CCD for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:12:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CtSW8N5UWTKG for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 052291B2CCB for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:12:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEB35956; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:12:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.130) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:12:10 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:12:08 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHjGBJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6aMGTQ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:12:07 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C7FD@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C7FDdfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.564619EC.022B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: ceb60f37a8fd0834926d760c5c14f917 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:12:19 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C7FDdfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnVsbHkgYWdyZWUgVG9tYXPigJlzIHBvaW50cyAoYmVsb3cpLg0KDQpMdWN5DQoNCkZyb206IEJF U1MgW21haWx0bzpiZXNzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiB0aG9tYXMubW9y aW5Ab3JhbmdlLmNvbQ0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAxMywgMjAxNSAxMDozNyBBTQ0K VG86IEhlbmRlcmlja3gsIFdpbSAoV2ltKQ0KQ2M6IGJlc3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJl OiBbYmVzc10gZHJhZnQtaGFvLWJlc3MtaW50ZXItbnZvMy12cG4tb3B0aW9uYw0KDQpIaSBXaW0s DQoNCjIwMTUtMTEtMTMsIEhlbmRlcmlja3gsIFdpbSAoV2ltKToNClRob21hcywgd2UgbmVlZCBh IHNvbHV0aW9uIHRoYXQgaXMgaW1wbGVtZW50YWJsZSBhbmQgd2lsbCBzY2FsZSBpbiBjb250cm9s L2RhdGEtcGxhbmUuIEFzIHN1Y2ggdGhlIHNvbHV0aW9uIEkgb3V0bGluZSBpcyBzdGFuZGFyZGlz 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--_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C7FDdfweml701chm_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 10:12:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815FE1B29B1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:12:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihW-qNboR1Zq; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CF751B29A3; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEB40372; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:12:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML705-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.142) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:12:30 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml705-chm ([10.193.5.142]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:12:24 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , John E Drake , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Thread-Index: AQHRHjLk+EPbBLnwbEaYyccCDDNBvp6aOngg Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:12:24 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C851@dfweml701-chm> References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.5646280F.0236, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 65907c852024d00aba22084c61861fbc Archived-At: Cc: IDR , "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:12:36 -0000 Hi John, Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method.=20 Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, .... Regards, Lucy=20 -----Original Message----- From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.= com Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 John, (Cc'ing IDR.) 2015-11-13, John E Drake: > > I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay =20 > draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows. > > For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3: > > "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then=20 > thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation=20 > is > assumed." > > With the following: > > "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order to=20 > distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS=20 > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.=20 > An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not=20 > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP=20 > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS=20 > encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed." Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt. > > For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e.,=20 > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the >= Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the > choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs." > > With the following: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e.,=20 > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those=20 > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the=20 > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512],=20 > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if=20 > none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path=20 > SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel." I think that the above will technically work. *However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide the s= mooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type appli= es ? > > We hope this is satisfactory. Close, but not quite there yet :) Best, -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM >> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org >> Cc: Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >> >> Hi John, >> >> 2015-11-12, John E Drake: >>> >>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than=20 >>> in the >> EVPN Overlay draft? >> >> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and=20 >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be=20 >> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft. >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas > ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le= s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to= ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Fri Nov 13 10:45:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9F51B2B4F for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:45:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lr7_CIllRNzX for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61A671B2B79 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 4569C755AA648; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:45:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tADIjIGp007327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:45:18 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:45:18 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Lucy yong , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwA Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:45:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A6AC72A0FA164AA6A1DA35FA475B85C0alcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:45:31 -0000 --_000_A6AC72A0FA164AA6A1DA35FA475B85C0alcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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ZGl2Pg0KPC9zcGFuPg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_A6AC72A0FA164AA6A1DA35FA475B85C0alcatellucentcom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 10:59:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17DD1B2FDB for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:59:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xvDcDVbg0YOy for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 019151B2FD0 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id A99A8A6784186; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:59:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tADIxnxl005788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:59:49 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:59:49 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6YcSAAgAAUTQCAAAJygIAASIkAgADG7ACAAHKwgIAADYwAgAA4r4A= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:59:47 +0000 Message-ID: <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_61AE87C2D215413594A36C648FAA614Ealcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: 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from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tADJNCVB008066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:23:27 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:21:53 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Lucy yong , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwAgAAHUbCAAALpAA== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:21:52 +0000 Message-ID: <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: 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[135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 369D9AC77B1F2; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:47:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tADJlK8s007157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:47:20 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:47:20 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Lucy yong , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwAgAAHUbCAAALpAIAAAg/ggAAFDYA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:47:19 +0000 Message-ID: <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5B0642229C924D4E93C2B5AADA31883Aalcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:47:27 -0000 --_000_5B0642229C924D4E93C2B5AADA31883Aalcatellucentcom_ 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localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hhsdy6PUEo7; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from st11p00im-asmtp001.me.com (st11p00im-asmtp001.me.com [17.172.80.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AF161B2B93; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (ec2-52-70-63-183.compute-1.amazonaws.com [52.70.63.183]) by st11p00im-asmtp001.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.35.0 64bit (built Mar 31 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NXR00FHBRD4IT10@st11p00im-asmtp001.me.com>; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:55:53 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2015-11-13_17:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 kscore.is_bulkscore=0 kscore.compositescore=1 compositescore=0.9 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 kscore.is_spamscore=0 rbsscore=0 spamscore=0 urlsuspectscore=0.9 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1510090000 definitions=main-1511130333 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----sinikael-?=_1-14474445522690.24223728221841156" From: Gunter Van De Velde To: Lucy yong In-reply-to: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C851@dfweml701-chm> References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C851@dfweml701-chm> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:46:00 +0100 X-Cm-Message-Id: 1447443962427530e7e635339741f0970d2eb1646a42fac356463dfa686bb174281380 X-Cm-Draft-Id: WyJhIiwxLCJkcmFmdF9pZCIsMTQ0NzQ0Mzk2MDgxMiwidiIsMV0= X-Mailer: CloudMagic Message-id: <1447444552407-db1ef9b1-d48eda6d-80edc740@icloud.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: John E Drake , thomas.morin@orange.com, "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , bess@ietf.org, IDR Subject: Re: [bess] [Idr] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:55:57 -0000 ------sinikael-?=_1-14474445522690.24223728221841156 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lucy, Did you take time to read https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02 Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platforms nowadays. Section 5.1 provides more insight. Brgds, G/ Sent using CloudMagic Email [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pa&cv=8.0.55&pv=6.0&source=email_footer_2] On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Lucy yong < lucy.yong@huawei.com [lucy.yong@huawei.com] > wrote: Hi John, Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended community to keep a consistent method. Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute is not present, .... Regards, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.com Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 John, (Cc'ing IDR.) 2015-11-13, John E Drake: > > I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay > draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows. > > For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3: > > "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then > thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation > is > assumed." > > With the following: > > "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order to > distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations. > An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS > encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed." Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt. > > For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the > choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs." > > With the following: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if > none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path > SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel." I think that the above will technically work. *However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text explanation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in the overlay draft) in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide the smooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type applies ? > > We hope this is satisfactory. Close, but not quite there yet :) Best, -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM >> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org >> Cc: Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >> >> Hi John, >> >> 2015-11-12, John E Drake: >>> >>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than >>> in the >> EVPN Overlay draft? >> >> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be >> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft. >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr ------sinikael-?=_1-14474445522690.24223728221841156 Content-Type: text/html; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Lucy,

Did you take time to read
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02

Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platforms nowadays. Section 5.1 provides more insight.

Brgds,
G/

Sent using CloudMagic Email
On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi John,

Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended community to keep a consistent method.

Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute is not present, ....

Regards,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM
To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

John,

(Cc'ing IDR.)

2015-11-13, John E Drake:
>
> I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay 
> draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows.
>
> For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3:
>
> "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then
> thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation
> is
> assumed."
>
> With the following:
>
> "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order to
> distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS
> encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.
> An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not
> need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP
> Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS
> encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed."

Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt.


>
> For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e.,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those
> tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the  > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the
> choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs."
>
> With the following:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e.,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those
> tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the
> Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512],
> the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if
> none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path
> SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel."

I think that the above will technically work.

*However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text explanation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in the overlay draft) in  draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide the smooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type applies ?

>
> We hope this is satisfactory.

Close, but not quite there yet :)

Best,

-Thomas




>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM
>> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
>> Cc: Eric Rosen
>> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02'
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> 2015-11-12, John E Drake:
>>>
>>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than
>>> in the
>> EVPN Overlay draft?
>>
>> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and
>> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be
>> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> -Thomas
>


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

------sinikael-?=_1-14474445522690.24223728221841156-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 12:11:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B071B1B2C98; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:11:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6z8pF9oN-dqe; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF0F61B2C86; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEB48020; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:11:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:11:10 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml704-chm ([10.193.5.141]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:11:07 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: Gunter Van De Velde Thread-Topic: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Thread-Index: AQHRHjLk+EPbBLnwbEaYyccCDDNBvp6aOngggACnFgD//35y4A== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:11:06 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91E@dfweml701-chm> References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C851@dfweml701-chm> <1447444552407-db1ef9b1-d48eda6d-80edc740@icloud.com> In-Reply-To: <1447444552407-db1ef9b1-d48eda6d-80edc740@icloud.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91Edfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.564643E0.0029, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: bd2426f01ee0513c9fb0759007e40dbb Archived-At: Cc: John E Drake , "thomas.morin@orange.com" , "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , "bess@ietf.org" , IDR Subject: Re: [bess] [Idr] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:11:18 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91Edfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gunter, Thank you to point to the right section. This overlay draft suggests to use= Encapsulation extended community to indicate the type of data plane encaps= ulation to be used for all EVC routes. But the tunnel encap draft proposes = to use tunnel encapsulation attribute + sub-TLVs to indicate the type of da= ta plane encapsulation to be used for a prefix. Why do we want to have two = solutions for the same space? Since this overlay draft is not RFC yet, it is good for the community to ma= ke a decision on it, which keeps simple for the implementation. It is not h= ard to modify the draft to use tunnel encapsulation attribute indicating th= e type of data plane encapsulation for all EVC routes. Regards, Lucy From: Gunter Van De Velde [mailto:guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:46 PM To: Lucy yong Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com; John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi = (sajassi) Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-= 02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Hi Lucy, Did you take time to read https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02 Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platforms nowadays. Section 5.1= provides more insight. Brgds, G/ Sent using CloudMagic Email On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi John, Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method. Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, .... Regards, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.= com Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 John, (Cc'ing IDR.) 2015-11-13, John E Drake: > > I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay > draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows. > > For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3: > > "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then > thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation > is > assumed." > > With the following: > > "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order to > distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations. > An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS > encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed." Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt. > > For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > = Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the > choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs." > > With the following: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if > none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path > SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel." I think that the above will technically work. *However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide the s= mooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type appli= es ? > > We hope this is satisfactory. Close, but not quite there yet :) Best, -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM >> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org >> Cc: Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >> >> Hi John, >> >> 2015-11-12, John E Drake: >>> >>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than >>> in the >> EVPN Overlay draft? >> >> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be >> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft. >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas > ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le= s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to= ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91Edfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Gunter,

 <= /p>

Thank you to point to the= right section. This overlay draft suggests to use Encapsulation extended c= ommunity to indicate the type of data plane encapsulation to be used for all EVC routes. But the tunnel encap draft proposes to use = tunnel encapsulation attribute + sub-TLVs to indicate the type of data = plane encapsulation to be used for a prefix. Why do we want to have two sol= utions for the same space?

 <= /p>

Since this overlay draft = is not RFC yet, it is good for the community to make a decision on it, whic= h keeps simple for the implementation. It is not hard to modify the draft to use tunnel encapsulation attribute indicating the type= of data plane encapsulation for all EVC routes.

 <= /p>

Regards,

Lucy

 <= /p>

From: Gunter V= an De Velde [mailto:guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:46 PM
To: Lucy yong
Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com; John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali S= ajassi (sajassi)
Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-o= verlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

 

Hi Lucy,

Did you take time to read
htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02

Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platform= s nowadays. Section 5.1 provides more insight.

 

Brgds,

G/

Sent using CloudMagic Email

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 a= t 7:12 PM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@= huawei.com> wrote:

 

Hi John,

Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method.

Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, ....

Regards,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM
To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

John,

(Cc'ing IDR.)

2015-11-13, John E Drake:
>
> I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay=  
> draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows.
>
> For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3:
>
> "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then=
> thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation=
> is
> assumed."
>
> With the following:
>
> "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order = to
> distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.=
> An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS
> encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed.&quo= t;

Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt.


>
> For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e= .,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those<= br> > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the&= nbsp; > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC55= 12], the
> choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs."
>
> With the following:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e= .,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those =
> tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the =
> Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], <= br> > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if=
> none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path=
> SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel= ."

I think that the above will technically work.

*However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in  draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide = the smooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type applies ?

>
> We hope this is satisfactory.

Close, but not quite there yet :)

Best,

-Thomas




>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas Morin [mai= lto:thomas.morin@orange.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM
>> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
>> Cc: Eric Rosen
>> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overl= ay-02'
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> 2015-11-12, John E Drake:
>>>
>>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rathe= r than
>>> in the
>> EVPN Overlay draft?
>>
>> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and <= br> >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can = be
>> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's d= raft.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> -Thomas
>


___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su= sceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message = a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/bess

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/idr

--_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91Edfweml701chm_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 12:19:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 995821B2E32; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:19:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NAzIEAoEf85Z; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19DA81B2E31; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 5AE8B40886; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:19:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.41]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 261261A0060; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:19:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::ec23:902:c31f:731c]) by OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::2cc9:4bac:7b7d:229d%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:19:09 +0100 From: To: Gunter Van De Velde , Lucy yong Thread-Topic: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Thread-Index: AQHRHj7ekIaymY6A0UmGPjUPvR5ENZ6aSpYAgAAHAwCAABMDlw== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:19:08 +0000 Message-ID: <21747_1447445949_564645BD_21747_4152_1_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm.1447445900828@email.android.com> References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C851@dfweml701-chm> <1447444552407-db1ef9b1-d48eda6d-80edc740@icloud.com>, <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91E@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91E@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm1447445900828emailandroidcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: John E Drake , "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , "bess@ietf.org" , IDR Subject: Re: [bess] [Idr] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:19:14 -0000 --_000_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm1447445900828emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lucy, The tunnel encap also describe how to use the extended community, in sectio= n 6. Best, -Thomas ---- Lucy yong a =E9crit ---- Hi Gunter, Thank you to point to the right section. This overlay draft suggests to use= Encapsulation extended community to indicate the type of data plane encaps= ulation to be used for all EVC routes. But the tunnel encap draft proposes = to use tunnel encapsulation attribute + sub-TLVs to indicate the type of da= ta plane encapsulation to be used for a prefix. Why do we want to have two = solutions for the same space? Since this overlay draft is not RFC yet, it is good for the community to ma= ke a decision on it, which keeps simple for the implementation. It is not h= ard to modify the draft to use tunnel encapsulation attribute indicating th= e type of data plane encapsulation for all EVC routes. Regards, Lucy From: Gunter Van De Velde [mailto:guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:46 PM To: Lucy yong Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com; John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi = (sajassi) Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-= 02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Hi Lucy, Did you take time to read https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02 Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platforms nowadays. Section 5.1= provides more insight. Brgds, G/ Sent using CloudMagic Email On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi John, Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method. Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, .... Regards, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.= com Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 John, (Cc'ing IDR.) 2015-11-13, John E Drake: > > I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay > draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows. > > For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3: > > "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then > thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation > is > assumed." > > With the following: > > "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order to > distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations. > An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS > encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed." Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt. > > For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > = Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the > choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs." > > With the following: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if > none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path > SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel." I think that the above will technically work. *However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide the s= mooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type appli= es ? > > We hope this is satisfactory. Close, but not quite there yet :) Best, -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM >> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org >> Cc: Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >> >> Hi John, >> >> 2015-11-12, John E Drake: >>> >>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than >>> in the >> EVPN Overlay draft? >> >> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be >> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft. >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas > ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le= s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to= ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm1447445900828emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lucy,

The tunnel encap also describe how to use the extended commu= nity, in section 6.

Best,

-Thomas



---- Lucy yong a =E9crit ----

Hi Gunter,

 

Thank you to point to t= he right section. This overlay draft suggests to use Encapsulation extended= community to indicate the type of data plane encapsulation to be used for all EVC routes. But the tunnel encap draft proposes to use = tunnel encapsulation attribute + sub-TLVs to indicate the type of data = plane encapsulation to be used for a prefix. Why do we want to have two sol= utions for the same space?

 

Since this overlay draf= t is not RFC yet, it is good for the community to make a decision on it, wh= ich keeps simple for the implementation. It is not hard to modify the draft to use tunnel encapsulation attribute indicating the t= ype of data plane encapsulation for all EVC routes.

 

Regards,

Lucy

 

From: Gunter= Van De Velde [mailto:guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:46 PM
To: Lucy yong
Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com; John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali S= ajassi (sajassi)
Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-o= verlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

 

Hi Lucy,

Did you take time to read
htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02

Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platform= s nowadays. Section 5.1 provides more insight.

 

Brgds,

G/

Sent using CloudMagic Email

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 a= t 7:12 PM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@= huawei.com> wrote:

 

Hi John,

Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method.

Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, ....

Regards,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM
To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

John,

(Cc'ing IDR.)

2015-11-13, John E Drake:
>
> I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay=  
> draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows.
>
> For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3:
>
> "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then=
> thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation=
> is
> assumed."
>
> With the following:
>
> "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order = to
> distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.=
> An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not
> need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP
> Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS
> encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed.&quo= t;

Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt.


>
> For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e= .,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those<= br> > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the&= nbsp; > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC55= 12], the
> choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs."
>
> With the following:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e= .,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those =
> tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the =
> Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], <= br> > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if=
> none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path=
> SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel= ."

I think that the above will technically work.

*However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in  draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide = the smooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type applies ?

>
> We hope this is satisfactory.

Close, but not quite there yet :)

Best,

-Thomas




>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas Morin [mai= lto:thomas.morin@orange.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM
>> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
>> Cc: Eric Rosen
>> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overl= ay-02'
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> 2015-11-12, John E Drake:
>>>
>>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rathe= r than
>>> in the
>> EVPN Overlay draft?
>>
>> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and <= br> >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can = be
>> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's d= raft.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> -Thomas
>


___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su= sceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message = a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/bess

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/idr

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al=
tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th=
is message was modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--_000_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm1447445900828emailandroidcom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 12:21:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E6511B2E28; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:21:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67OLDK08Wl2U; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7A261B2E42; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAH53701; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:21:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML706-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.225) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:21:35 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml706-chm ([10.193.5.225]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:21:23 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , Gunter Van De Velde Thread-Topic: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Thread-Index: AQHRHjLk+EPbBLnwbEaYyccCDDNBvp6aOngggACnFgD//35y4IAAitAA//96vgA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:21:22 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C944@dfweml701-chm> References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C851@dfweml701-chm> <1447444552407-db1ef9b1-d48eda6d-80edc740@icloud.com>, <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91E@dfweml701-chm> <21747_1447445949_564645BD_21747_4152_1_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm.1447445900828@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: <21747_1447445949_564645BD_21747_4152_1_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm.1447445900828@email.android.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C944dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.56464651.014C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 5614903193e1a297f5a6c45de9083f02 Archived-At: Cc: John E Drake , "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , "bess@ietf.org" , IDR Subject: Re: [bess] [Idr] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:21:45 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C944dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, kindly for backward compatibility. Having two ways to do it is a pain = for the implementation. Lucy From: thomas.morin@orange.com [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:19 PM To: Gunter Van De Velde; Lucy yong Cc: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi) Subject: RE: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-= 02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Lucy, The tunnel encap also describe how to use the extended community, in sectio= n 6. Best, -Thomas ---- Lucy yong a =E9crit ---- Hi Gunter, Thank you to point to the right section. This overlay draft suggests to use= Encapsulation extended community to indicate the type of data plane encaps= ulation to be used for all EVC routes. But the tunnel encap draft proposes = to use tunnel encapsulation attribute + sub-TLVs to indicate the type of da= ta plane encapsulation to be used for a prefix. Why do we want to have two = solutions for the same space? Since this overlay draft is not RFC yet, it is good for the community to ma= ke a decision on it, which keeps simple for the implementation. It is not h= ard to modify the draft to use tunnel encapsulation attribute indicating th= e type of data plane encapsulation for all EVC routes. Regards, Lucy From: Gunter Van De Velde [mailto:guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:46 PM To: Lucy yong Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com; John E Drake; = bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi) Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-= 02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Hi Lucy, Did you take time to read https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02 Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platforms nowadays. Section 5.1= provides more insight. Brgds, G/ Sent using CloudMagic Email On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi John, Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method. Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, .... Regards, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.= com Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 John, (Cc'ing IDR.) 2015-11-13, John E Drake: > > I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay > draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows. > > For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3: > > "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then > thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation > is > assumed." > > With the following: > > "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order to > distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations. > An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS > encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed." Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt. > > For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > = Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the > choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs." > > With the following: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if > none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path > SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel." I think that the above will technically work. *However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide the s= mooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type appli= es ? > > We hope this is satisfactory. Close, but not quite there yet :) Best, -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM >> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org >> Cc: Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >> >> Hi John, >> >> 2015-11-12, John E Drake: >>> >>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than >>> in the >> EVPN Overlay draft? >> >> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be >> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft. >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas > ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le= s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to= ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C944dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, kindly for backward = compatibility. Having two ways to do it is a pain for the implementation.

Lucy

 <= /p>

From: thomas.m= orin@orange.com [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:19 PM
To: Gunter Van De Velde; Lucy yong
Cc: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi)
Subject: RE: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-o= verlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

 

Lucy,

The tunnel encap also describe how to use the extended community, in sec= tion 6.

Best,

-Thomas



---- Lucy yong a =E9crit ----

Hi Gunter,

 <= /p>

Thank you to point to the= right section. This overlay draft suggests to use Encapsulation extended c= ommunity to indicate the type of data plane encapsulation to be used for all EVC routes. But the tunnel encap draft proposes to use = tunnel encapsulation attribute + sub-TLVs to indicate the type of data = plane encapsulation to be used for a prefix. Why do we want to have two sol= utions for the same space?

 <= /p>

Since this overlay draft = is not RFC yet, it is good for the community to make a decision on it, whic= h keeps simple for the implementation. It is not hard to modify the draft to use tunnel encapsulation attribute indicating the type= of data plane encapsulation for all EVC routes.

 <= /p>

Regards,

Lucy

 <= /p>

From: Gunter V= an De Velde [mailto:gunter= vandeveldecc@icloud.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:46 PM
To: Lucy yong
Cc: thomas.morin@orange.c= om; John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajas= si)
Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-o= verlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

 

Hi Lucy,

Did you take time to read
htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02

Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platform= s nowadays. Section 5.1 provides more insight.

 

Brgds,

G/

Sent using CloudMagic Email

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 a= t 7:12 PM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@= huawei.com> wrote:

 

Hi John,

Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method.

Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, ....

Regards,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM
To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

John,

(Cc'ing IDR.)

2015-11-13, John E Drake:
>
> I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay=  
> draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows.
>
> For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3:
>
> "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then=
> thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation=
> is
> assumed."
>
> With the following:
>
> "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order = to
> distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.=
> An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS
> encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed.&quo= t;

Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt.


>
> For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e= .,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those<= br> > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the&= nbsp; > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC55= 12], the
> choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs."
>
> With the following:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e= .,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those =
> tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the =
> Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], <= br> > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if=
> none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path=
> SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel= ."

I think that the above will technically work.

*However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in  draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide = the smooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type applies ?

>
> We hope this is satisfactory.

Close, but not quite there yet :)

Best,

-Thomas




>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas Morin [mai= lto:thomas.morin@orange.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM
>> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
>> Cc: Eric Rosen
>> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overl= ay-02'
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> 2015-11-12, John E Drake:
>>>
>>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rathe= r than
>>> in the
>> EVPN Overlay draft?
>>
>> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and <= br> >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can = be
>> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's d= raft.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> -Thomas
>


___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su= sceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message = a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/bess

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/idr

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a e=
te altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci
 
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization.<=
o:p>
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable =
if this message was modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C944dfweml701chm_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 12:31:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF7F1B2FC5 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:31:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id trnvoSXuy8re for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7918E1B2FC2 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEB49197; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:31:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.72) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:31:46 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml702-chm ([10.193.5.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:31:32 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwAgAAHUbCAAALpAIAAAg/ggAAFDYCAAAo94A== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:31:31 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090201.564648B3.011A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 36029bc2f9953782e2e270ed3eaad1c6 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: 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[135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B10871B311D for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id B25A3E8C266C0; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:48:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tADKmaoO007522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:48:37 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:48:37 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Lucy yong , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwAgAAHUbCAAALpAIAAAg/ggAAFDYCAAAo94IAABuGA Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:48:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C081BC5984F94076A532CC45BC9D2752alcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] 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port 10024) with ESMTP id oCkgFSMo-ZHF for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:56:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4D921B2C96 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEB50650; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:55:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.72) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:55:57 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml702-chm ([10.193.5.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:55:40 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwAgAAHUbCAAALpAIAAAg/ggAAFDYCAAAo94IAABuGAgAAA3XA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 20:55:39 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C980@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C980dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117591B3182 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:02:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id okCgDIHt5PYt for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E97031B3180 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email 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from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36A3B1B3182 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEB51106; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:03:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML705-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.142) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:03:27 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml705-chm ([10.193.5.142]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:03:13 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwAgAAHUbCAAALpAIAAAg/ggAAFDYCAAAo94IAABuGAgAADErA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:03:12 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9A1@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9A1dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.56465021.0132, 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--_000_462D69106F82344E95BC83996D8039D2010CBCD078ASHBDAG1M1res_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 13:06:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1981B31B0 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:06:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BD1YZgWs0L5S for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: e8c1d7eec0e2442d56988a6c47018fe3 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:06:51 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9AFdfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCldpbSwNCg0KU2VlIFtsdWN5Ml0NCg0KVlhMQU4gaGFzIGEgZGVkaWNhdGVkIFVEUCBwb3J0 IGFuZCBpcyB2ZXJ5IGNsZWFyIGluIHRoZSBSRkM3MzQ4DQpbTHVjeV0gVGhpcyBkb2VzIG5vdCBw cmV2ZW50IG90aGVyIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIHRvIHVzZSBWWExBTiB3aXRoIG90aGVyIFVEUCBw b3J0LiBJZiBzb21lb25lIHdhbnRzIHRvIHN0aWNrIG9uIHRoZSBkZWRpY2F0ZSBVRFAgcG9ydCwg d2UgY2FuIHVzZSB0aGUgc3JjIFVEUCBwb3J0IHRvIGFjaGlldmUgdGhhdC4NCldIPiB0aGV5IGFy 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--_000_289ABB595CBB426E98C50B5C989D41DDalcatellucentcom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 13:14:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC231B3210 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:14:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9xqqTEmMtBmH for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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(fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tADLGfqm006559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:16:41 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:16:41 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Lucy yong , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwAgAAHUbCAAALpAIAAAg/ggAAFDYCAAAo94IAABuGAgAAA3XCAAAMHAIAAATeggAABiYCAAADR4IAAAGOA Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:16:40 +0000 Message-ID: <84D71732-3EFF-41CA-B2FE-80A28370A94B@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C980@dfweml701-chm> <5FC575C3-ABF7-4611-80CA-CFEF496BCD76@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9AF@dfweml701-chm> <289ABB59-5CBB-426E-98C5-0B5C989D41DD@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9DE@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9DE@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_84D717323EFF41CAB2FE80A28370A94Balcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org 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17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 36029bc2f9953782e2e270ed3eaad1c6 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:20:00 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9F0dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T3VyIHNvbHV0aW9uIGFsc28gd29ya3Mgd2l0aCBWWExBTi1ncGUgZW5jYXAuDQpMdWN5DQoNCkZy b206IEhlbmRlcmlja3gsIFdpbSAoV2ltKSBbbWFpbHRvOndpbS5oZW5kZXJpY2t4QGFsY2F0ZWwt bHVjZW50LmNvbV0NClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMTMsIDIwMTUgMzoxNyBQTQ0KVG86 IEx1Y3kgeW9uZzsgSGFvd2VpZ3VvDQpDYzogYmVzc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IGRy YWZ0LWhhby1iZXNzLWludGVyLW52bzMtdnBuLW9wdGlvbmMNCg0KSeKAmWxsIHRyeSB0byB3cml0 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--_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9F0dfweml701chm_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 13:21:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF281B3237 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:21:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x3f6a4D7We2U for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F19111B324B for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 899C5D263A733; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:21:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tADLLVgM020356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:21:31 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:21:31 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Lucy yong , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ZJ3nrgAA+LACAAJ+AcIAARwwAgAAHUbCAAALpAIAAAg/ggAAFDYCAAAo94IAABuGAgAAA3XCAAAMHAIAAATeggAABiYCAAADR4IAAAGOAgAABPaCAAAAeAA== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:21:30 +0000 Message-ID: <388BEDF3-81B6-490E-8CEB-9F9866139C5C@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C980@dfweml701-chm> <5FC575C3-ABF7-4611-80CA-CFEF496BCD76@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9AF@dfweml701-chm> <289ABB59-5CBB-426E-98C5-0B5C989D41DD@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9DE@dfweml701-chm> <84D71732-3EFF-41CA-B2FE-80A28370A94B@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9F0@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C9F0@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_388BEDF381B6490E8CEB9F9866139C5Calcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:21:38 -0000 --_000_388BEDF381B6490E8CEB9F9866139C5Calcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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(fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tADLMfKJ012792 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:22:41 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.183]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:22:41 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" To: Lucy yong , "thomas.morin@orange.com" , Gunter Van De Velde Thread-Topic: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Thread-Index: AQHRHk959QBACZX/sEecI9+S3KT6vp6aU7cAgAAAnwD//4sEgA== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:22:41 +0000 Message-ID: <393F700E-4C3F-452A-ACBF-EC6EDB91DD1C@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C851@dfweml701-chm> <1447444552407-db1ef9b1-d48eda6d-80edc740@icloud.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91E@dfweml701-chm> <21747_1447445949_564645BD_21747_4152_1_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm.1447445900828@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C944@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C944@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_393F700E4C3F452AACBFEC6EDB91DD1Calcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: IDR , "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] [Idr] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org 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Nov 2015 13:25:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D49DD1B3276; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAH57268; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:25:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:25:11 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml704-chm ([10.193.5.141]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:25:06 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , "thomas.morin@orange.com" , Gunter Van De Velde Thread-Topic: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Thread-Index: AQHRHjLk+EPbBLnwbEaYyccCDDNBvp6aOngggACnFgD//35y4IAAitAA//96vgCAAJcDgP//esag Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:25:05 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720CA0F@dfweml701-chm> References: <486973F4-725A-4510-969F-AD9BC3D34B54@alcatel-lucent.com> <1F70DC8A-2BB5-40C7-89CA-03F6E0784B8B@alcatel-lucent.com> <4550_1447317570_56445042_4550_858_1_56445041.3030507@orange.com> <5644AB4F.6030708@orange.com> <29407_1447433162_564613CA_29407_1693_1_564613C9.6080900@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C851@dfweml701-chm> <1447444552407-db1ef9b1-d48eda6d-80edc740@icloud.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C91E@dfweml701-chm> <21747_1447445949_564645BD_21747_4152_1_ko297mmvp0kfv335qvemt2fm.1447445900828@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C944@dfweml701-chm> <393F700E-4C3F-452A-ACBF-EC6EDB91DD1C@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <393F700E-4C3F-452A-ACBF-EC6EDB91DD1C@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.158.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720CA0Fdfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090201.56465539.002F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 5614903193e1a297f5a6c45de9083f02 Archived-At: Cc: IDR , "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] [Idr] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: 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boundary="_000_97FC12B2CE7643F4BC90537E9514D06Fjunipernet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Nov 2015 21:58:19.3515 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR0501MB1710 Archived-At: Cc: Gunter Van De Velde , "Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , IDR , "Rabadan, Jorge \(Jorge\)" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] [Idr] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:58:30 -0000 --_000_97FC12B2CE7643F4BC90537E9514D06Fjunipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, no we don't. As I indicated the last time you raised this issue,= we are only going to use the extended community. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 13, 2015, at 4:25 PM, Lucy yong > wrote: Jorge, Thank you let me know. Too bad, we have to live with it. Reagrds, Lucy From: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [mailto:jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 3:23 PM To: Lucy yong; thomas.morin@orange.com; Gun= ter Van De Velde Cc: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); bess@ietf.org; IDR Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-= 02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Lucy, There are several implementations with shipping code using the RFC5512 bgp = tunnel extended community. It cannot be deprecated. Thanks. Jorge From: Idr > on behalf of = Lucy yong > Date: Friday, November 13, 2015 at 12:21 PM To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" >, Gunter Van De Velde > Cc: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" >, = "bess@ietf.org" >= , IDR > Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-= 02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Yes, kindly for backward compatibility. Having two ways to do it is a pain = for the implementation. Lucy From: thomas.morin@orange.com [mailto:thoma= s.morin@orange.com] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:19 PM To: Gunter Van De Velde; Lucy yong Cc: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi (sa= jassi) Subject: RE: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-= 02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Lucy, The tunnel encap also describe how to use the extended community, in sectio= n 6. Best, -Thomas ---- Lucy yong a =E9crit ---- Hi Gunter, Thank you to point to the right section. This overlay draft suggests to use= Encapsulation extended community to indicate the type of data plane encaps= ulation to be used for all EVC routes. But the tunnel encap draft proposes = to use tunnel encapsulation attribute + sub-TLVs to indicate the type of da= ta plane encapsulation to be used for a prefix. Why do we want to have two = solutions for the same space? Since this overlay draft is not RFC yet, it is good for the community to ma= ke a decision on it, which keeps simple for the implementation. It is not h= ard to modify the draft to use tunnel encapsulation attribute indicating th= e type of data plane encapsulation for all EVC routes. Regards, Lucy From: Gunter Van De Velde [mailto:guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:46 PM To: Lucy yong Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com; John E Drake; = bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi) Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-= 02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 Hi Lucy, Did you take time to read https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02 Its used pretty intense by DC orchestration platforms nowadays. Section 5.1= provides more insight. Brgds, G/ Sent using CloudMagic Email On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi John, Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method. Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, .... Regards, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.= com Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00 John, (Cc'ing IDR.) 2015-11-13, John E Drake: > > I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay > draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows. > > For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3: > > "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then > thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation > is > assumed." > > With the following: > > "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order to > distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations. > An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS > encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed." Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt. > > For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > = Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], the > choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs." > > With the following: > > "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e., > ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if > none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path > SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel." I think that the above will technically work. *However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide the s= mooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type appli= es ? > > We hope this is satisfactory. Close, but not quite there yet :) Best, -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Thomas Morin [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM >> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org >> Cc: Eric Rosen >> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' >> >> Hi John, >> >> 2015-11-12, John E Drake: >>> >>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rather than >>> in the >> EVPN Overlay draft? >> >> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can be >> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's draft. >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas > ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le= s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to= ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --_000_97FC12B2CE7643F4BC90537E9514D06Fjunipernet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Actually, no we don't.  As I indicated the last time you raised t= his issue, we are only going to use the extended community.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 13, 2015, at 4:25 PM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Jorge,<= /p>

 <= /p>

Thank you let me know. To= o bad, we have to live with it.

 <= /p>

Reagrds,

Lucy

 <= /p>

From: Rabadan,= Jorge (Jorge) [mailto:= jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 3:23 PM
To: Lucy yong; thomas.mor= in@orange.com; Gunter Van De Velde
Cc: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); bess@iet= f.org; IDR
Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-o= verlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

 

Lucy,

 

There are several implementat= ions with shipping code using the RFC5512 bgp tunnel extended community. It= cannot be deprecated. 

Thanks.

Jorge

 

From: Idr <idr-boun= ces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Date: Friday, November 13, 2015 at 12:21 PM
To: "thomas.morin@or= ange.com" <thomas.mo= rin@orange.com>, Gunter Van De Velde <guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com>
Cc: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.or= g>, IDR <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-o= verlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

 

Yes, kindly for backward = compatibility. Having two ways to do it is a pain for the implementation.

Lucy

 

From: thomas.morin@orange.com [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:19 PM
To: Gunter Van De Velde; Lucy yong
Cc: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org= ; IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi)
Subject: RE: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-o= verlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

 =

Lucy,

The tunnel encap also describe how to use th= e extended community, in section 6.

Best,

-Thomas



---- Lucy yong a =E9crit ----=

Hi Gunter,

 

Thank you to point to the= right section. This overlay draft suggests to use Encapsulation extended c= ommunity to indicate the type of data plane encapsulation to be used for all EVC routes. But the tunnel encap draft proposes to use = tunnel encapsulation attribute + sub-TLVs to indicate the type of data = plane encapsulation to be used for a prefix. Why do we want to have two sol= utions for the same space?

 

Since this overlay draft = is not RFC yet, it is good for the community to make a decision on it, whic= h keeps simple for the implementation. It is not hard to modify the draft to use tunnel encapsulation attribute indicating the type= of data plane encapsulation for all EVC routes.

 

Regards,

Lucy

 

From: Gunter Van De Velde [mailto:guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com]
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:46 PM
To: Lucy yong
Cc: thomas.morin@orange.c= om; John E Drake; bess@ietf.org; IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajas= si)
Subject: Re: [Idr] [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-o= verlay-02' and draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

 =

Hi Lucy,

Did you take time to read
htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02

Its used pretty intense = by DC orchestration platforms nowadays. Section 5.1 provides more insight.<= o:p>

 =

Brgds,=

G/

Sent using CloudMagic Email

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 a= t 7:12 PM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@= huawei.com> wrote:

 =

Hi John,

Since the tunnel encap draft goes with encap tunnel attribute and there was= no deployment of RFC5512, IMO, we should deprecate encapsulation extended = community to keep a consistent method.

Thus, should the overlay draft states if BGP tunnel encapsulate attribute i= s not present, ....

Regards,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.com
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 10:46 AM
To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
Cc: IDR; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Eric Rosen
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-02' an= d draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00

John,

(Cc'ing IDR.)

2015-11-13, John E Drake:
>
> I spoke with Eric and Ali and we would like to change both the overlay=  
> draft and the tunnel encaps drafts as follows.
>
> For the overlay draft, replace this text in section 5.1.3:
>
> "If the BGP Encapsulation extended community is not present, then=
> thedefault MPLS encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation=
> is
> assumed."
>
> With the following:
>
> "Note that the MPLS encapsulation tunnel type is needed in order = to
> distinguish between an advertising node that only supports non-MPLS > encapsulations and one that supports MPLS and non-MPLS encapsulations.=
> An advertising node that only supports MPLS encapsulation does not > need to advertise any encapsulation tunnel types; i.e., if the BGP > Encapsulation extended community is not present, then either MPLS
> encapsulation or a statically configured encapsulation is assumed.&quo= t;

Having more text to explain things in the overlay draft does not hurt.


>
> For the tunnel encaps draft, replace this text in section 5:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e= .,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those<= br> > tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the&= nbsp; > Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC55= 12], the
> choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs."
>
> With the following:
>
> "If the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute contains several TLVs (i.e= .,
> ifit specifies several tunnels), router R may choose any one of those =
> tunnels, based upon local policy. If any of tunnels' TLVs contain the =
> Color sub-TLV and/or the Protocol Type sub-TLV defined in [RFC5512], <= br> > the choice of tunnel may be influenced by these sub-TLVs. Note that if=
> none of the TLVs specifies the MPLS tunnel type, a Label Switched Path=
> SHOULD NOT be used unless none of the TLVs specifies a feasible tunnel= ."

I think that the above will technically work.

*However* it would be a pity to *not* have the very useful clear-text expla= nation of the reason for the 'MPLS' type (what you propose to add above in = the overlay draft) in  draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-00... why provide = the smooth explanation for only one of the specs to which this 'MPLS' type applies ?

>
> We hope this is satisfactory.

Close, but not quite there yet :)

Best,

-Thomas




>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas Morin [mai= lto:thomas.morin@orange.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:08 AM
>> To: John E Drake; bess@ietf.org
>> Cc: Eric Rosen
>> Subject: Re: [bess] One question about 'draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overl= ay-02'
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> 2015-11-12, John E Drake:
>>>
>>> Why do you think it should be documented in Eric's draft rathe= r than
>>> in the
>> EVPN Overlay draft?
>>
>> The issue applies beyond the context of E-VPN overlay specs, and <= br> >> exist in any context where different kinds of MPLS(/x) encaps can = be
>> mixed (E-VPN non-overlay, IP VPNs), which is addressed by Eric's d= raft.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> -Thomas
>


___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su= sceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message = a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/bess

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/idr

__________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
____
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent c=
ontenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies san=
s autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signal=
er
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que le=
s pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteratio=
n,
France Telecom - Orange decline toute resp=
onsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci
 
This message and its attachments may conta=
in confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or co=
pied without authorization.
If you have received this email in error, =
please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<=
/o:p>
As emails may be altered, France Telecom -=
 Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsif=
ied.
Thank you.
_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
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mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 08:12:48 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Linda Dunbar , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ahzdwgACV1YA= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 07:12:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657D8262C@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657D8262C@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EE93D7F1B236485AB5F016894BD54CC4alcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , 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Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE3E1B340B for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 04:51:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VTXcX0E4PZTG for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 04:51:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7CD81B340A for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 04:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAI94184; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:51:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.39) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:51:32 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:51:21 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Linda Dunbar , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6ahzdwgACV1YCAAd+vRQ== Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:51:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657D8262C@dfweml701-chm>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.46.96.24] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E0A46nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.56487FD6.008A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: e8c1d7eec0e2442d56988a6c47018fe3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:51:40 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E0A46nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wim, Thanks for your detail explanation. In your solution, MPLSoGRE/oUDP needs to be supported in data center networ= k. To support option-c interconnection with WAN network, TORs/NVEs need to = add one BGP LSP Label in middle layer, so TORs/NVEs need to perform MPLS(VP= N Layer) + MPLS (BGP LSP Label) + GRE/UDP encapsulation for the traffic fro= m local connecting end systems to WAN network. In your solution, GRE/UDP la= yer is not used for transport layer stitching at ASBR-d, traditonal end to = end BGP LSP is still used for transport layer. In our solution, VXLAN/NVGRE are two of the focuses, and for VXLAN/NVGRE an= d MPLS VPN network option-c mode interconnection, our solution seems to be = the only choice. For MPLS Over GRE/UDP, it's the debating point.We propose = the same interconnecting solution for MPLSoGRE/oUDP, your proposal provides= another optional solution, i think it works and is good. However, i think = an independent informational draft only for this point maybe not necessary,= we can describe it in same single draft which includes all possible soluti= ons for IP overlay network(VXLAN/NVGRE/VXLAN-GPE/MPLSoGRE/MPLSoUDP) and MPL= S VPN network interworking using option-c mode. In summary, Option-c mode interconnecting solution between IP overlay netwo= rk and MPLS VPN network is needed for BESS working group, and we should cov= er all possible solutions for all possible mainstream IP overlay encapsulat= ions in single draft. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.= henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 15:12 To: Linda Dunbar; bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Linda, first of all the draft does not say anything about this and 2nd I am= not confused and 3rd I explained the reasons why this does not fly. So rea= d them From: Linda Dunbar = > Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 23:18 To: Wim Henderickx >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Wim, If the draft adds some description to say that the VxLAN header is decapsul= ated, and the MAC header is terminated. It is the inner IP data frames to b= e passed to the MPLS IP-VPNs. Will it clear out the confusion? Linda From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:34 AM To: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc I don=92t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major flaw= in this proposal: Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS IP-VPN= s. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don=92t. The draft does n= ot talk about any of this and introduces a lot of complexity for nothing. If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in a DC = I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using VXLAN-GPE,= MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we define= d in RFC4364. --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E0A46nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Wim,

Thanks for your detail explana= tion.

In your solution, MPLSoGRE/oUD= P needs to be supported in data center network. To support option-c interco= nnection with WAN network, TORs/NVEs need to add one BGP LSP Label in middl= e layer, so TORs/NVEs need to perform MPLS(VPN Layer) + MPLS (BGP LSP Label) + GRE/UDP encapsulation for= the traffic from local connecting end systems to WAN network. In your solu= tion, GRE/UDP layer is not used for transport layer stitching at ASBR-d, tr= aditonal end to end BGP LSP is still used for transport layer.

In our solution, VXLAN/NVGRE a= re two of the focuses, and for VXLAN/NVGRE and MPLS VPN network option-c mo= de interconnection, our solution seems to be the only choice. For MPLS Over= GRE/UDP, it's the debating point.We propose the same interconnecting solution for MPLSoGRE/oUDP, your proposal= provides another optional solution, i think it works and is good. However,= i think an independent informational draft only for this point maybe = not necessary, we can describe it in same single draft which includes all possible solutions for IP overla= y network(VXLAN/NVGRE/VXLAN-GPE/MPLSoGRE/MPLSoUDP) and MPLS VPN network int= erworking using option-c mode.

In summary, Option-c mode inte= rconnecting solution between IP overlay network and MPLS VPN network is nee= ded for BESS working group, and we should cover all possible solutions for = all possible mainstream IP overlay encapsulations in single draft.

Thanks,

weiguo
From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on beha= lf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 15:12
To: Linda Dunbar; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Linda, first of all the draft does not say anything about this and 2nd= I am not confused and 3rd I explained the reasons why this does not fly. S= o read them


Wim,

 

If the draft adds some description to s= ay that the VxLAN header is decapsulated, and the MAC header is terminated.= It is the inner IP data frames to be passed to the MPLS IP-VPNs.

 

Will it clear out the confusion?

 

Linda

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:34 AM
To: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 

I don=92t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There= is a major flaw in this proposal:

Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible = with MPLS IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don=92t. = The draft does not talk about any of this and introduces a lot of complexity for nothing.

 

If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP= fabric in a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this = using VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we defined in RFC4364.<= /p>

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E0A46nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 22:25:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343B11B2DDC for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:25:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q-K9sG2yaO-T for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B69981B2DDB for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAJ53270; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:25:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:25:36 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:25:24 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRIDbVw8E3YH3aZk2wsRgMmmd4cZ6eLUr2 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:25:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151116061655.796.9281.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20151116061655.796.9281.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.564976E1.007D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 5664b00cb1ed72bc9c82c1b1e9f4e442 Archived-At: Cc: Stephane Litkowski , Zhuangshunwan , Liangqiandeng Subject: Re: [bess] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-03.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:25:42 -0000 Hi Folks, A new version of this draft was posted. Vlan action part was updated, comp= licated VLAN action such as SwapPush, PushSwap can be represented in single= extended community. Your comments and suggestions are welcomed. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________________ From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [internet-drafts@ietf.org] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 14:16 To: Liangqiandeng; Liangqiandeng; Haoweiguo; Stephane Litkowski; Zhuangshun= wan; Haoweiguo Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-03.txt A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Weiguo Hao and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn Revision: 03 Title: Dissemination of Flow Specification Rules for L2 VPN Document date: 2015-11-16 Group: idr Pages: 13 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-flowspe= c-l2vpn-03.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2= vpn/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-0= 3 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-idr-flowspec= -l2vpn-03 Abstract: This document defines BGP flow-spec extension for Ethernet traffic filtering in L2 VPN network. SAFI=3D134 in [RFC5575] is redefined for dissemination traffic filtering information in an L2VPN environment. A new subset of component types and extended community also are defined. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat= From nobody Mon Nov 16 07:38:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D711A1EF1 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:38:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.068 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.068 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eGGMsAOetZ-9 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (p-mail2.rd.orange.com [161.106.1.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5721B1A1EF6 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7227FE30091; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:37:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by p-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E01E3008B; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:37:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:37:45 +0100 To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:37:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020806020801060309080706" Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:38:47 -0000 --------------020806020801060309080706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Wim, 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe > requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the > reasons explained. Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. (more below) > > 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >> Thomas, we need a solution that is implementable and will scale in >> control/data-plane. As such the solution I outline is standardised >> today and does not need new extensions in control/data-plane. Hence >> informational draft and can be implemented if there is market demand. > > The above argument would fully make sense to me if support > MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) was common place in ToRs or vswitches. > >> With respect to MAC you need to address both directions and does not >> make sense to manage this if it is not required/doe snot add value. > > On VXLAN and the Ethernet header: it looks to me that addressing both > direction is just a matter of documenting in the draft (if not already > there) what is the expected behavior for VXLAN/NVGRE. But VXLAN and > NVGRE are not the only encaps proposed in the specs anyway. > > Compared to 3-label option C, my understanding is that the added-value > is to not require the support of an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) encap in > ToRs and vswitches. > > The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: > (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior > specified in this draft) > or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support > MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) > > WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in mind ? > WH> and depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of > the TOR/vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. -Thomas > >> >> From: Thomas Morin >> Organization: Orange >> Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 >> To: Wim Henderickx >> Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >> >> Hi Wim, >> >> I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to >> implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports >> (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware >> implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing >> multiple IPs would be operationally viable. >> >> However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you >> propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) >> encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported >> or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this >> kind of encap, and even software-based switches may not be ready to >> support that today). >> >> My take is that having different options to adapt to various >> implementations constraints we may have would have value. >> >> (+ one question below on VXLAN...) >> >> -Thomas >> >> >> 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>> On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used >>>> with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by >>>> a sender based on an ARP request when needed ? >>> >>> Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? >>> >>> WH> yes >> >> I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? >> >> > --------------020806020801060309080706 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Wim,

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained.

Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

(more below)



2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
Thomas, we need a solution that is implementable and will scale in control/data-plane. As such the solution I outline is standardised today and does not need new extensions in control/data-plane. Hence informational draft and can be implemented if there is market demand.

The above argument would fully make sense to me if support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) was common place in ToRs or vswitches.

With respect to MAC you need to address both directions and does not make sense to manage this if it is not required/doe snot add value.

On VXLAN and the Ethernet header: it looks to me that addressing both direction is just a matter of documenting in the draft (if not already there) what is the expected behavior for VXLAN/NVGRE. But VXLAN and NVGRE are not the only encaps proposed in the specs anyway.

Compared to 3-label option C, my understanding is that the added-value is to not require the support of an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) encap in ToRs and vswitches.   

The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer:
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

WH> b depends on the use case

I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case".
I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in mind ?

WH> and depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.

Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

-Thomas







From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be ready to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementations constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?

Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

WH> yes

I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?




--------------020806020801060309080706-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 07:47:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7751A1B6F for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:47:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.768 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.768 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YpAbnKinDjrV for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (r-mail2.rd.orange.com [217.108.152.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8981C1A1B59 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 688C15D8930; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:47:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by r-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9ED5D8659; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:47:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:47:27 +0100 To: , Wim Henderickx References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <5649FA94.8040008@orange.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:47:32 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010303000101040104060701" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:47:42 -0000 --------------010303000101040104060701 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wim, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) : > VXLAN has a dedicated UDP port and is very clear in the RFC7348 Well, having a port reserved for this use that won't be the default for another protocol is one thing, but that does not prevent in itself the same protocol to be applied on another range of ports. (Because HTTP specs says port 80 does not prevent the URI scheme to allow specifying the port in the URL) Even reading the VXLAN (Informational) specs, we see room for flexibility wrt ports: - Destination Port: IANA has assigned the value 4789 for the VXLAN UDP port, and this value SHOULD be used by default as the destination UDP port. Some early implementations of VXLAN have used other values for the destination port. To enable interoperability with these implementations, the destination port SHOULD be configurable. I read "4789 SHOULD be used by default" and "SHOULD be configurable". > > Will write something on what I proposed when I get some time, not soon The co-chair in me needs to ask the following question: should this call for adoption be kept on hold until an outline of an alternative solution is provided ? -Thomas > > From: Lucy yong > > Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 17:10 > To: Wim Henderickx >, Haoweiguo > > > Cc: "bess@ietf.org " > > Subject: RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > Hi Wim, > > OptionC is very useful for DCI use case. In this case, multi-hop EBGP > redistributes VN routes between the end NVEs in source and destination > Ass, ASBRs do not maintain and distribute the VN routes; a tunnel is > built between the end NVEs in source and destination Ass for traffic > transport. Due to the different data planes in DC and WAN, the tunnel > is stitched by several segments, IP tunnels are used in DCs, and MPLS > tunnels are used in WAN. > > Traditional OptionC requires end-to-end MPLS, which may fit to some > DCI cases. However, there are many DCs that do not support MPLS data > plane. This draft is to provide the solution for this use case. > > Although VXLAN has UDP port number, if tunnel ingress and egress can > negotiate to use another UDP port for the VXLAN encapsulation, I don’t > see it breaks anything. Not sure if hw has this restriction either. > Even yes, we can consider using UDP source port for this purpose. UDP > source port is used for transit ECMP and filled by flow entropy, > tunnel egress can determine the flow entropy value and inform tunnel > ingress. Thus, tunnel egress (i.e. DC ASBR) can maintain UDP source > port and MPLS label table; when DC ASBR receives a packet from NVE, by > lookup the table, it gets the label for the packet, push the label on > the packet before sending toward WAN. > > Hope we together work out the solution for this valid use case and > like to hear any better alternative. > > Regards, > > Lucy > > *From:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Henderickx, > Wim (Wim) > *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:00 PM > *To:* Haoweiguo > *Cc:* bess@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > The whole draft complicates any data plane we defined so far and since > there is simpler solutions I don’t support this proposal. > > Arguments have been given as to why. > > *From: *Haoweiguo > > *Date: *Friday 13 November 2015 at 02:44 > *To: *Wim Henderickx > > *Cc: *"bess@ietf.org " > > *Subject: *RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > Hi Wim, > > It is used for layer 3 VPN CE device to visit IP based overlay data > center network. For layer 3 traffic forwarding, the MAC address in > VXLAN/NVGRE is restricted only in data center inside domain. For the > traffic from data center inside to outside, the inner MAC > address(destination MAC is ASBR-d's MAC, src MAC is NVE's MAC) in > VXLAN/NVGRE will be dropped at ASBR-d, only IP payload will continue > to be carried into MPLS network. I can emphasize this point in my > later version, it doesn't have much impact on the whole solution. > > This draft also is suitable for VXLAN-GPE and MPLSoGRE/MPLSoUDP > network to interconnect with MPLS VPN network. In VXLAN-GPE, it > supports IP in IP encapsulation, so no inner MAC concerns. > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on > behalf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com > ] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:33 > *To:* bess@ietf.org > *Subject:* [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > I don’t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major > flaw in this proposal: > > Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS > IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don’t. The > draft does not talk about any of this and introduces a lot of > complexity for nothing. > > If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in > a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using > VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS > label we defined in RFC4364. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess --------------010303000101040104060701 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Wim,

Henderickx, Wim (Wim) :
VXLAN has a dedicated UDP port and is very clear in the RFC7348

Well, having a port reserved for this use that won't be the default for another protocol is one thing, but that does not prevent in itself the same protocol to be applied on another range of ports. (Because HTTP specs says port 80 does not prevent the URI scheme to allow specifying the port in the URL)

Even reading the VXLAN (Informational) specs, we see room for flexibility wrt ports:
      -  Destination Port: IANA has assigned the value 4789 for the
         VXLAN UDP port, and this value SHOULD be used by default as the
         destination UDP port.  Some early implementations of VXLAN have
         used other values for the destination port.  To enable
         interoperability with these implementations, the destination
         port SHOULD be configurable.
I read "4789 SHOULD be used by default" and "SHOULD be configurable".



Will write something on what I proposed when I get some time, not soon

The co-chair in me needs to ask the following question: should this call for adoption be kept on hold until an outline of an alternative solution is provided ?

-Thomas






From: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 17:10
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi Wim,

 

OptionC is very useful for DCI use case. In this case, multi-hop EBGP redistributes VN routes between the end NVEs in source and destination Ass, ASBRs do not maintain and distribute the VN routes; a tunnel is built between the end NVEs in source and destination Ass for traffic transport. Due to the different data planes in DC and WAN, the tunnel is stitched by several segments, IP tunnels are used in DCs, and MPLS tunnels are used in WAN.

 

Traditional OptionC requires end-to-end MPLS, which may fit to some DCI cases. However, there are many DCs that do not support MPLS data plane. This draft is to provide the solution for this use case.

 

Although VXLAN has UDP port number, if tunnel ingress and egress can negotiate to use another UDP port for the VXLAN encapsulation, I don’t see it breaks anything. Not sure if hw has this restriction either. Even yes, we can consider using UDP source port for this purpose. UDP source port is used for transit ECMP and filled by flow entropy, tunnel egress can determine the flow entropy value and inform tunnel ingress. Thus, tunnel egress (i.e. DC ASBR) can maintain UDP source port and MPLS label table; when DC ASBR receives a packet from NVE, by lookup the table, it gets the label for the packet, push the label on the packet before sending toward WAN.

 

Hope we together work out the solution for this valid use case and like to hear any better alternative.

 

Regards,

Lucy  

 

 

 

 

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:00 PM
To: Haoweiguo
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 

The whole draft complicates any data plane we defined so far and since there is simpler solutions I don’t support this proposal.

Arguments have been given as to why.

 

From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 02:44
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 

Hi Wim,

It is used for layer 3 VPN CE device to visit IP based overlay data center network. For layer 3 traffic forwarding, the MAC address in VXLAN/NVGRE is restricted only in data center inside domain. For the traffic from data center inside to outside,  the inner MAC address(destination MAC is ASBR-d's MAC, src MAC is NVE's MAC) in VXLAN/NVGRE will be dropped at ASBR-d, only IP payload will continue to be carried into MPLS network. I can emphasize this point in my later version, it doesn't have much impact on the whole solution.

This draft also is suitable for VXLAN-GPE and MPLSoGRE/MPLSoUDP network to interconnect with MPLS VPN network. In VXLAN-GPE, it supports IP in IP encapsulation, so no inner MAC concerns.

 

Thanks,

weiguo

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:33
To: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

I don’t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major flaw in this proposal:

Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don’t. The draft does not talk about any of this and introduces a lot of complexity for nothing.

 

If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we defined in RFC4364.

 

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

--------------010303000101040104060701-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 07:54:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21401A0145 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:54:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IrXgnE8eveoD for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail1.rd.orange.com (r-mail1.rd.orange.com [217.108.152.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B6C1A0117 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail1.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C2DD4A4429A for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:54:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by r-mail1.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE74A44296 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:54:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:54:39 +0100 To: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8B1@dfweml701-chm> <246BCAFA-94E6-412D-875E-AD8479B907C4@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C8CE@dfweml701-chm> <5B064222-9C92-4D4E-93C2-B5AADA31883A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <5649FC44.8020903@orange.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:54:44 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C953@dfweml701-chm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:54:48 -0000 Lucy Yong : > [Lucy1] Is this one? “If we want to describe a model C VPN > interconnect with a IP fabric in a DC I recommend to do an > informational RFC that describes this using VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or > MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we defined in > RFC4364.†> > If yes, you suggest NVE to implement MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP, to support > VXLAN-GPE for L3 payload. First of all, using MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP for > this case, requires three labels + GRE/UDP tunnel, huge overhead is > introduced here. This is very complex in my opinion. Our solution can > apply VXLAN-GRE encap. and also support MPLSoX encap (5.1.1 and > 5.1.2). BTW, this may be not what you suggested. I don't think Wim mentioned 3-labels over UDP or GRE. Wim proposal works with 2-labels over an IP encap (the topmost label of the typical 3-label option C being replaced by an IP transport). > WH> it is less bits then you proposal and no changes in any CP/DP that > is standardised today. Where is the complexity? Works today and is > deployed in many networks > > [Lucy2] This is not compliant with many DCs’ architecture as Thomas > pointed out. ( Note that I merely mentioned the problem of vswitch/ToR support for MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), but had mentioned nothing about overall DC architecture. ) -Thomas > *From: *Lucy yong > > *Date: *Friday 13 November 2015 at 17:10 > *To: *Wim Henderickx >, Haoweiguo > > > *Cc: *"bess@ietf.org " > > *Subject: *RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > Hi Wim, > > OptionC is very useful for DCI use case. In this case, multi-hop EBGP > redistributes VN routes between the end NVEs in source and destination > Ass, ASBRs do not maintain and distribute the VN routes; a tunnel is > built between the end NVEs in source and destination Ass for traffic > transport. Due to the different data planes in DC and WAN, the tunnel > is stitched by several segments, IP tunnels are used in DCs, and MPLS > tunnels are used in WAN. > > Traditional OptionC requires end-to-end MPLS, which may fit to some > DCI cases. However, there are many DCs that do not support MPLS data > plane. This draft is to provide the solution for this use case. > > Although VXLAN has UDP port number, if tunnel ingress and egress can > negotiate to use another UDP port for the VXLAN encapsulation, I don’t > see it breaks anything. Not sure if hw has this restriction either. > Even yes, we can consider using UDP source port for this purpose. UDP > source port is used for transit ECMP and filled by flow entropy, > tunnel egress can determine the flow entropy value and inform tunnel > ingress. Thus, tunnel egress (i.e. DC ASBR) can maintain UDP source > port and MPLS label table; when DC ASBR receives a packet from NVE, by > lookup the table, it gets the label for the packet, push the label on > the packet before sending toward WAN. > > Hope we together work out the solution for this valid use case and > like to hear any better alternative. > > Regards, > > Lucy > > *From:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Henderickx, > Wim (Wim) > *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:00 PM > *To:* Haoweiguo > *Cc:* bess@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > The whole draft complicates any data plane we defined so far and since > there is simpler solutions I don’t support this proposal. > > Arguments have been given as to why. > > *From: *Haoweiguo > > *Date: *Friday 13 November 2015 at 02:44 > *To: *Wim Henderickx > > *Cc: *"bess@ietf.org " > > *Subject: *RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > Hi Wim, > > It is used for layer 3 VPN CE device to visit IP based overlay data > center network. For layer 3 traffic forwarding, the MAC address in > VXLAN/NVGRE is restricted only in data center inside domain. For the > traffic from data center inside to outside, the inner MAC > address(destination MAC is ASBR-d's MAC, src MAC is NVE's MAC) in > VXLAN/NVGRE will be dropped at ASBR-d, only IP payload will continue > to be carried into MPLS network. I can emphasize this point in my > later version, it doesn't have much impact on the whole solution. > > This draft also is suitable for VXLAN-GPE and MPLSoGRE/MPLSoUDP > network to interconnect with MPLS VPN network. In VXLAN-GPE, it > supports IP in IP encapsulation, so no inner MAC concerns. > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on > behalf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com > ] > *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:33 > *To:* bess@ietf.org > *Subject:* [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > I don’t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major > flaw in this proposal: > > Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS > IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don’t. The > draft does not talk about any of this and introduces a lot of > complexity for nothing. > > If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in > a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using > VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS > label we defined in RFC4364. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Mon Nov 16 08:44:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19EA51A6F7D for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:44:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, 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--_000_B7229123D325465F9BD2F1FD6FBC7FB1alcatellucentcom_-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 08:51:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77AB1A6F92 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:51:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KZa9Nb8HBojW for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CD451A6F91 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 418C6C3D738DA; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:51:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAGGoBoc007979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:51:04 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:50:35 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Thomas Morin Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRII4XvLe0+zOfv0mRY3+9Ea725J6eRdWA Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:50:35 +0000 Message-ID: <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_09C99D22AE4B4BF1801018CD93CF5478alcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org 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cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F8121A6F9A for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 79D7D677F2EE2; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:52:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAGGqhNS016810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:53:01 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.17]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:52:48 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Thomas Morin , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRII7uqH4GJt17PEuMv6rGT4mnvZ6eRnOA Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:52:48 +0000 Message-ID: <070304F8-1762-4BE1-85F0-F176732F0A4F@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <5649FA94.8040008@orange.com> <2DC3477C-AA64-4DC8-81FA-CF3AAEF0C13F@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <2DC3477C-AA64-4DC8-81FA-CF3AAEF0C13F@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_070304F817624BE185F0F176732F0A4Falcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfnsoUrzTaLT for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 00:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 753481B2C3E for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 00:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEF33374; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:12:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.37) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:12:17 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 16:12:12 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Thomas Morin , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRnOAgAGbO6o= Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:12:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5720C748@dfweml701-chm> <5649FA94.8040008@orange.com> <2DC3477C-AA64-4DC8-81FA-CF3AAEF0C13F@alcatel-lucent.com>, <070304F8-1762-4BE1-85F0-F176732F0A4F@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <070304F8-1762-4BE1-85F0-F176732F0A4F@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E4EFFnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.564AE16A.0018, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: ceb60f37a8fd0834926d760c5c14f917 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:12:33 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E4EFFnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wim, WH> I first want to understand the requirements for this use case and I don= =92t agree to adoption since there are major DP implications in this. [weiguo]: You proposed MPLS over GRE/UDP encapsulation for the traffic betw= een data center inside and outside MPLS VPN network. However, for some TOR = switches, they don't support MPLS Over GRE/UDP. Even if they support, they = rely on internal loop and the forwarding performance will be reduced half. = For option-c scenario, TOR switches need to realize MPLS+MPLS+GRE/UDP, it'= s more complicated for TOR switches. Current most of the TOR switches suppo= rt VXLAN encapsulation and have no half forwarding performance issue. For = ASBR-d, it is router device in most case, it has capability to realize more= comlicated forwarding behavior. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.= henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 0:52 To: Thomas Morin; bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc In-line From: Wim Henderickx > Date: Monday 16 November 2015 at 08:29 To: Thomas Morin >,= "bess@ietf.org" = > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc From: BESS > on behalf = of Thomas Morin > Organization: Orange Date: Monday 16 November 2015 at 07:47 To: "bess@ietf.org" >, Wim Henderickx > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Wim, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) : VXLAN has a dedicated UDP port and is very clear in the RFC7348 Well, having a port reserved for this use that won't be the default for ano= ther protocol is one thing, but that does not prevent in itself the same pr= otocol to be applied on another range of ports. (Because HTTP specs says po= rt 80 does not prevent the URI scheme to allow specifying the port in the U= RL) Even reading the VXLAN (Informational) specs, we see room for flexibility w= rt ports: - Destination Port: IANA has assigned the value 4789 for the VXLAN UDP port, and this value SHOULD be used by default as the destination UDP port. Some early implementations of VXLAN have used other values for the destination port. To enable interoperability with these implementations, the destination port SHOULD be configurable. I read "4789 SHOULD be used by default" and "SHOULD be configurable". WH> true but it does not say to use multiple at the same time. My read on t= his is that it allows a non standard port to be used, but not multiple at t= he same time. Will write something on what I proposed when I get some time, not soon The co-chair in me needs to ask the following question: should this call fo= r adoption be kept on hold until an outline of an alternative solution is p= rovided ? WH> I first want to understand the requirements for this use case and I don= =92t agree to adoption since there are major DP implications in this. -Thomas From: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 17:10 To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderick= x@alcatel-lucent.com>, Haoweiguo = > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, OptionC is very useful for DCI use case. In this case, multi-hop EBGP redis= tributes VN routes between the end NVEs in source and destination Ass, ASBR= s do not maintain and distribute the VN routes; a tunnel is built between t= he end NVEs in source and destination Ass for traffic transport. Due to the= different data planes in DC and WAN, the tunnel is stitched by several seg= ments, IP tunnels are used in DCs, and MPLS tunnels are used in WAN. Traditional OptionC requires end-to-end MPLS, which may fit to some DCI cas= es. However, there are many DCs that do not support MPLS data plane. This d= raft is to provide the solution for this use case. Although VXLAN has UDP port number, if tunnel ingress and egress can negoti= ate to use another UDP port for the VXLAN encapsulation, I don=92t see it b= reaks anything. Not sure if hw has this restriction either. Even yes, we ca= n consider using UDP source port for this purpose. UDP source port is used = for transit ECMP and filled by flow entropy, tunnel egress can determine th= e flow entropy value and inform tunnel ingress. Thus, tunnel egress (i.e. D= C ASBR) can maintain UDP source port and MPLS label table; when DC ASBR rec= eives a packet from NVE, by lookup the table, it gets the label for the pac= ket, push the label on the packet before sending toward WAN. Hope we together work out the solution for this valid use case and like to = hear any better alternative. Regards, Lucy From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:00 PM To: Haoweiguo Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc The whole draft complicates any data plane we defined so far and since ther= e is simpler solutions I don=92t support this proposal. Arguments have been given as to why. From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com> Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 02:44 To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderick= x@alcatel-lucent.com> Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, It is used for layer 3 VPN CE device to visit IP based overlay data center = network. For layer 3 traffic forwarding, the MAC address in VXLAN/NVGRE is = restricted only in data center inside domain. For the traffic from data cen= ter inside to outside, the inner MAC address(destination MAC is ASBR-d's M= AC, src MAC is NVE's MAC) in VXLAN/NVGRE will be dropped at ASBR-d, only IP= payload will continue to be carried into MPLS network. I can emphasize thi= s point in my later version, it doesn't have much impact on the whole solut= ion. This draft also is suitable for VXLAN-GPE and MPLSoGRE/MPLSoUDP network to = interconnect with MPLS VPN network. In VXLAN-GPE, it supports IP in IP enca= psulation, so no inner MAC concerns. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:33 To: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc I don=92t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There is a major flaw= in this proposal: Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible with MPLS IP-VPN= s. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don=92t. The draft does n= ot talk about any of this and introduces a lot of complexity for nothing. If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP fabric in a DC = I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this using VXLAN-GPE,= MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we define= d in RFC4364. _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/be= ss --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E4EFFnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Wim,

WH> I first want to understand the requirements for this use case a= nd I don=92t agree to adoption since there are major DP implications in thi= s. 
[weiguo]: You proposed MPLS over GRE/UDP encapsulation for the traffic= between data center inside and outside MPLS VPN network. However, for some= TOR switches, they don't support MPLS Over GRE/UDP. Even if they support, = they rely on internal loop and the forwarding performance will be reduced half.  For option-c scenario, = TOR switches need to realize MPLS+MPLS+GRE/UDP, it's more complicat= ed for TOR switches. Current most of the TOR switches support VXLAN encapsu= lation and have no half forwarding performance issue.  For ASBR-d, it is router device in most case, it has capabili= ty to realize more comlicated forwarding behavior.
 
Thanks,
weiguo
From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on beha= lf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 0:52
To: Thomas Morin; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

In-line

From: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderi= ckx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Monday 16 November 2015 at 0= 8:29
To: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com= >, "bess@ietf.or= g" <bess@iet= f.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess= -inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc



From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Monday 16 November 2015 at 0= 7:47
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, Wim Henderickx <wim.he= nderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess= -inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Wim,

Henderickx, Wim (Wim) :
VXLAN has a dedicated UDP port and is very clear in the RFC7348

Well, having a port reserved for this use that won't be the default for ano= ther protocol is one thing, but that does not prevent in itself the same pr= otocol to be applied on another range of ports. (Because HTTP specs says po= rt 80 does not prevent the URI scheme to allow specifying the port in the URL)

Even reading the VXLAN (Informational) specs, we see room for flexibility w= rt ports:
      -  Destination Port: IANA has assigned the val=
ue 4789 for the
         VXLAN UDP port, and this value SHOULD be used by default as the
         destination UDP port.  Some early implementations of VXLAN have
         used other values for the destination port.  To enable
         interoperability with these implementations, the destination
         port SHOULD be configurable.
I read "4789 SHOULD be used by default" and "SHOULD be confi= gurable".

WH> true but it does not say to use multiple at the same time. My r= ead on this is that it allows a non standard port to be used, but not multi= ple at the same time.




Will write something on what I proposed when I get some time, not soon=

The co-chair in me needs to ask the following question: should this call fo= r adoption be kept on hold until an outline of an alternative solution is p= rovided ?

WH> I first want to understand the requirements for this use case a= nd I don=92t agree to adoption since there are major DP implications in thi= s. 


-Thomas






From: Lucy yong <lucy.yong= @huawei.com>
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 1= 7:10
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, Haoweiguo <ha= oweiguo@huawei.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-= nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi Wim,

 

OptionC is very useful for DCI use case= . In this case, multi-hop EBGP redistributes VN routes between the end NVEs= in source and destination Ass, ASBRs do not maintain and distribute the VN routes; a tunnel is built between th= e end NVEs in source and destination Ass for traffic transport. Due to the = different data planes in DC and WAN, the tunnel is stitched by several segm= ents, IP tunnels are used in DCs, and MPLS tunnels are used in WAN.

 

Traditional OptionC requires end-to-end= MPLS, which may fit to some DCI cases. However, there are many DCs that do= not support MPLS data plane. This draft is to provide the solution for this use case.

 

Although VXLAN has UDP port number, if = tunnel ingress and egress can negotiate to use another UDP port for the VXL= AN encapsulation, I don=92t see it breaks anything. Not sure if hw has this restriction either. Even yes, we can con= sider using UDP source port for this purpose. UDP source port is used for t= ransit ECMP and filled by flow entropy, tunnel egress can determine the flo= w entropy value and inform tunnel ingress. Thus, tunnel egress (i.e. DC ASBR) can maintain UDP source port a= nd MPLS label table; when DC ASBR receives a packet from NVE, by lookup the= table, it gets the label for the packet, push the label on the packet befo= re sending toward WAN.

 

Hope we together work out the solution = for this valid use case and like to hear any better alternative.

 

Regards,

Lucy  

 

 

 

 

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:00 PM
To: Haoweiguo
Cc: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 

The whole draft complicates any data plane we = defined so far and since there is simpler solutions I don=92t support this = proposal.

Arguments have been given as to why.

 

From: Ha= oweiguo <<= a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com" t= arget=3D"_blank">haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 02:44
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx= @alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 

Hi Wim,

It is used = for layer 3 VPN CE device to visit IP based overlay data center network. Fo= r layer 3 traffic forwarding, the MAC address in VXLAN/NVGRE is restricted = only in data center inside domain. For the traffic from data center inside to outside,  the inner MAC ad= dress(destination MAC is ASBR-d's MAC, src MAC is NVE's MAC) in VXLAN/NVGRE= will be dropped at ASBR-d, only IP payload will continue to be carried int= o MPLS network. I can emphasize this point in my later version, it doesn't have much impact on the whole soluti= on.

This draft = also is suitable for VXLAN-GPE and MPLSoGRE/MPLSoUDP network to interconnec= t with MPLS VPN network. In VXLAN-GPE, it supports IP in IP encapsulation, = so no inner MAC concerns.

 

Thanks,

weiguo

From:= BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [wim.hen= derickx@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:33
To: bess@ietf.org=
Subject: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

I don=92t support the adoption of this draft as a WG. There= is a major flaw in this proposal:

Basically the encapsulation of VXLAN/NVGRE is incompatible = with MPLS IP-VPNs. VXLAN/NVGRE contains a MAC address and IP-VPNs don=92t. = The draft does not talk about any of this and introduces a lot of complexity for nothing.

 

If we want to describe a model C VPN interconnect with a IP= fabric in a DC I recommend to do an informational RFC that describes this = using VXLAN-GPE, MPLSoGRE or MPLSoUDP encapsulation and retain the E2E MPLS label we defined in RFC4364.<= /p> 



_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E4EFFnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 01:37:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7EF1B2DB5 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:37:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wvWleiOJrXNa for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 130811B2DB1 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 01:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 6FEFDC0117; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:37:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.1.183]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46B2E12005B; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:37:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.5) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:37:21 +0100 References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Organization: Orange To: Wim Henderickx , BESS Message-ID: <8929_1447753042_564AF552_8929_4548_1_564AF551.7010205@orange.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:37:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070004070300070203010805" X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.5] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:37:27 -0000 --------------070004070300070203010805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > > 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >> Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe >> requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the >> reasons explained. > > TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the > reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. > WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN > data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where > an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the > NVE/TOR elements. > My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. >> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >> >> TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: >> (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior >> specified in this draft) >> or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to >> support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) >> >> WH> b depends on the use case > > I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". > WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application > behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on > NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real > driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. > > I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in > MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs > and vswitches. > Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet > assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this > certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had > you something else in mind ? > > WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing > TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) > >> WH> and depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of >> the TOR/vswitches. > > Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to > change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? > > WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not > a valid discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in vswitches. > > Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to > implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of > MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as > making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. > > WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles > multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas > > > > >> >>> >>> From: Thomas Morin >>> Organization: Orange >>> Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 >>> To: Wim Henderickx >>> Cc: "bess@ietf.org" >>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> >>> Hi Wim, >>> >>> I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to >>> implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports >>> (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware >>> implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing >>> multiple IPs would be operationally viable. >>> >>> However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you >>> propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) >>> encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is >>> supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not >>> support this kind of encap, and even software-based switches may not >>> be ready to support that today). >>> >>> My take is that having different options to adapt to various >>> implementations constraints we may have would have value. >>> >>> (+ one question below on VXLAN...) >>> >>> -Thomas >>> >>> >>> 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>>> On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used >>>>> with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC >>>>> by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ? >>>> >>>> Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? >>>> >>>> WH> yes >>> >>> I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? >>> >>> >> > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --------------070004070300070203010805 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained.

TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.
WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):

TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer:
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

WH> b depends on the use case

I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case".
WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based Fabric.

Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.



I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in mind ?

WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void.

No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)


WH> and depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.

Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion

See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in vswitches.


Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?

I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas










From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be ready to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementations constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?

Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

WH> yes

I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?




 

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([10.193.5.142]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:54:35 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "thomas.morin@orange.com" , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRII4XJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRdWAgAGfaICAAAMdAIAAtPuA Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:54:34 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572186D4@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> 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ESMTP id CEG19497; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:09:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:09:57 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml704-chm ([10.193.5.141]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:09:50 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: John E Drake , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRdWAgAG2mYCAAIk6AIAAEHUQgAAU5CA= Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:09:49 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57218715@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> 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X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: ceb60f37a8fd0834926d760c5c14f917 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:10:07 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57218715dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSm9obiwNCg0KSSBkb27igJl0IGtub3cgd2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgZmF0ZWwgZmxhdyBoZXJlLiBU aGUgc29sdXRpb24gd29ya3MuIEl0IGlzIG1hdHRlciBvZiB0aGUgcHJlZmVyZW5jZS4gRXZlbiBp ZiB0aGUgd2F5IG9mIFVEUCBwb3J0IHByb3Bvc2VkIGluIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBpcyBub3QgYWNjZXB0 YWJsZSwgd2UgY2FuIHVzZSBJUCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgdG8gYWNoaWV2ZSBpdC4gVGhlIGtleSBpcyB0 aGF0IEJFU1MgV0cgbmVlZHMgb3B0aW9uIEMgc29sdXRpb24gZm9yIHRoZSB1c2UgY2FzZSB0aGF0 IHRoZSBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgIGFyZSBjb250ZXh0cyB3aGVyZSBvdmVybGF5cyBhcmUgcHJlc2Vu 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.10.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151117204558.30393.28329.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:45:58 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-04.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 20:45:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled Services Working Group of the IETF. Title : Extranet Multicast in BGP/IP MPLS VPNs Authors : Yakov Rekhter Eric C. Rosen Rahul Aggarwal Yiqun Cai Thomas Morin Filename : draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-04.txt Pages : 61 Date : 2015-11-17 Abstract: Previous RFCs specify the procedures necessary to allow IP multicast traffic to travel from one site to another within a BGP/MPLS IP VPN (Virtual Private Network). However, it is sometimes desirable to allow multicast traffic whose source is in one VPN to be received by systems that are in another VPN. This is known as a "Multicast VPN (MVPN) extranet". This document updates RFCs 6513, 6514, and 6625 by specifying the procedures that are necessary in order to provide MVPN extranet service. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Nov 17 13:33:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52231B2E93; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:33:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uX1UJI-1ONEj; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0115.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADC5A1B2BEE; 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CY1PR0501MB2012; 5:vDDAyuNDxi1b2HeHYVoZPtgUGUxR05nAlzfEw5J56E60opfkZegXQBSL6AYiwjEO0a4wJhvsidVj6M52Pj3C1z3w2vPb4Mtdr99+AKBjiJodz0iY+ZdjPvWVb07OQecRFDbqviK2RhoXbPT2fJZzAw==; 24:wWlmhXB+GikIH9OIPVetdbAW73uhjxd/n7EKqfi5a3XL20nz374bOty3rIHPWtMRaw4kw1bhRkWAX1ScXuNMMrlQ6Jo3LboD4Awr5Il4ask= SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Nov 2015 21:33:29.7747 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0501MB2012 Archived-At: Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "VIGOUREUX, MARTIN \(MARTIN\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 21:33:36 -0000 On 11/12/2015 2:50 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > Hi! > > I just finished reading this document. [Eric] Alvaro, thanks for your review. I just posted revision -04, with a number of edits made in response to your comments. > As mentioned by the WG chairs at the meeting in Yokohama, the technology > in bess can be complex and hard to penetrate for the average (or novice) > reader. While the target of documents like this one is not always the > average (or novice) reader, it is important that those readers > (including the IESG and other review directorates) are able to at least > understand what's going on. [Eric] Often, reviewers from various directorates are assigned documents that they are not qualified to review. This is certainly a problem, but not a problem with the documents. There is also a problem with certain ADs (NOT routing area ADs of course) who don't know nearly as much as they think they do. Well, luckily for them, bidirectional multicast is not discussed in this document, as it really seems to freak them out! > Because of the length of the document, it would be nice to include a > "road map" to guide the reader (in general: "Section x talks about X, > Section y covers Y, etc."). It might be easier to include references to > the specific sections in 1.4 (Overview). [Eric] I think the table of contents is as good a road map as we are going to get. Adding additional pointers to the overview doesn't provide additional value, and most likely would just introduce errors. > > This is a long standards track document, so it is bound to have a lot of > normative language. On one hand I don't want to go overboard with > explicitly mandating every little step..but at the same time we want to > be clear as to what is "actually required for interoperation or to limit > behavior which has potential for causing harm" [RFC2119]. Due to the > potential of bad configurations resulting in incomplete/illdefined > extranets, I can see why the behavior around RTs would require normative > language. However, there are some places where the use of rfc2119 > keywords may be lacking, not needed or inconsistent. An example of > inconsistency is this paragraph from Section 7.2.3.1. (When Inter-Site > Shared Trees Are Used): > > If VRF-S exports a Source Active A-D route that contains C-S in the > Multicast Source field of its NLRI, and if that VRF also exports a > UMH-eligible route matching C-S, the Source Active A-D route MUST > carry at least one RT in common with the UMH-eligible route. The RT > must be chosen such that the following condition holds: if VRF-R > contains an extranet C-receiver allowed by policy to receive extranet > traffic from C-S, then VRF-R imports both the UMH-eligible route and > the Source Active A-D route. > > .. If the "route MUST carry at least one RT", why isn't the condition to > be met also normative? I don't want to belabor on this specific case, > it is just an example. [Eric] I think you are right about this case; I've fixed the text. > However, I would appreciate it if the authors > would scan the document for required or unneeded normative language. I > pointed at some cases in my comments below. [Eric] I looked at each of the 200 or so occurrences of "must", "should", etc., and made some changes. I think it's more consistent now, but the criteria for when to say "MUST" and when to say "must" have never been very clear. > I do have a couple of items that I think are Major (see below) that I > would like to see addressed before starting the IETF Last Call. > Major: > > 1. Section 1.3. (Clarification on Use of Route Distinguishers) uses the > word "REQUIREs" in a couple of places. In a strict manner, the > rfc2119 key words is "REQUIRED". While I think that the meaning of > using "REQUIREs" should be obvious, please rephrase the text to > strictly use the rfc2119 language. [Eric] I changed "this document REQUIREs" to "it is REQUIRED by this document". Hopefully, the RFC editor won't ding me for unnecessary use of the passive voice ;-) > 2. Section 10 (Security Considerations) > * What is a "VPN security violation"? It is mentioned in several > places, but it is not explicitly defined. Please either add a > reference or be clear in what it is. [Eric] A "VPN security violation" is just any situation in which a packet gets delivered to a VPN where it isn't supposed to go. I added a definition in the terminology section, and also in the Security Considerations section. > * Misconfiguration is a significant risk, for example assigning > the wrong RTs to the wrong routes. I think that risk should be > mentioned. [Eric] This is generally true of any technology based upon RFC4364. I added a sentence about this to the Security Considerations. > Minor: > > 1. Section 1.1. (Terminology): "We will sometimes say that a route > "matches" a particular host if the route matches an IP address of > the host." Given the previous definition (in the same paragraph) of > "match" ("the address prefix of the given route is the longest match > in that VRF for the given IP address") and the use of match there > makes it unclear whether you're talking about a host route or just > the longest match. [Eric] I don't see the ambiguity here. A given IP address matches a given route in the context of a given VRF if the route's address prefix is the longest match in that VRF for that address. A host matches a route if the host's IP address matches the route. > 2. Section 1.3. (Clarification on Use of Route Distinguishers) > * This section explains the "unique VRF per RD" condition a couple > of times — even though the explanation seems to be the same, it > would be nice if it was explained only once. [Eric] I think it is explained only once. There is also an explanation of the "unique RD per VRF" condition, which is different than the "unique VRF per RD" condition. > * ""default RD" (discussed above)" Where this text appears is in > fact the first time that a "default RD" is mentioned. I'm > guessing that this refers to the RD in the "unique VRF per RD" > condition, but please don't make the reader guess. [Eric] You're right, the term "default RD" should not have been introduced without explanation. When a VRF is configured with only one RD, we call that the "default RD" for that VRF. When a VRF is configured with two RDs, one is configured to be the "default RD", and one is configured to be the "extranet RD". I've tried to clear this up in the text. > 3. Section 4.1. (UMH-Eligible Routes) The "MAY" in the second > paragraph appears to be part of the example. Suggested new text: > * The UMH-eligible extranet C-source routes do not necessarily > have to be unicast routes, they MAY be SAFI-129 routes (see > Section 5.1.1 of [RFC6513]). If one wants, e.g., a VPN-R > C-receiver to be able to receive extranet C-flows from > C-sources in VPN-S, but one does not want any VPN-R system to > be able to send unicast traffic to those C-sources, then the > UMH-eligible routes exported from VPN-S and imported by VPN-R > may be SAFI-129 routes. The SAFI-129 routes are used only > for UMH determination, but not for unicast routing. [Eric] I've modified the text in Section 4.1 to fix this problem. (The new text is based on your suggestion, but is slightly different.) > 4. Section 4.2. (Distribution of Unicast Routes Matching C-RPs and > DRs) "It follows that if a VRF contains C-S, but does not contain a > C-RP for C-G, then the VRF must import a unicast route matching a > C-RP for C-G." and "Similarly, if a VRF contains a C-RP for C-G, but > does not contain C-S, the VRF must import a unicast route matching > the DR for C-S." Should those "must" be a "MUST"? [Eric] Yes, fixed. > 5. Section 4.4.1. (The Extranet Source Extended Community) "…only > useful when all the extranet routes from a given VRF are exported > with exactly the same set of RTs. (Cf. Section 4.3.1 of [RFC4364], > which does provide a mechanism…" Is there any inference that > should be made from this text? Should the Extranet Source Extended > Community not be used when the mechanism in rfc4364 is used? Any > downsides if both are used? [Eric] The CE puts the Extranet Source EC on a given IP route in order to tell the PE that when the route is propagated as a VPN-IP route, it should carry the set of RTs that have been provisioned for extranet sources. If the CE is using a different mechanism (such as described in section 4.3.1 of RFC4364) to tell the PE exactly which RTs the route should carry, there is no point in using the Extranet Source EC. So it doesn't make sense to use both mechanisms. I've put in some explanatory text saying characterizing the circumstances under which the CE SHOULD NOT put on the EC, and saying that the PE SHOULD ignore the EC in those circumstances. > 6. Section 5.2. (Considerations for Particular Inclusive Tunnel Types) > * Please include a reference (or definition) for "inclusive > tunnel" (maybe in the Terminology). I couldn't find one in > rfc6513, but did in rfc7582. [Eric] I put in some text defining "Inclusive Tunnel", and making it clear that it is the same thing that is called "Inclusive Tree" in RFC6513. (Unfortunately, terminology is not entirely consistent across the entire set of MVPN documents. RFC6625, e.g., uses "Inclusive P-tunnel".) > * The third paragraph ("In order for VRF-S to set up the P2MP…") > seems to explain what is needed for the setup, which is > something that I assume is standardized in a different > document. If so, then the "MUST" shouldn't be normative in this > document. s/MUST/must [Eric] Okay, fixed. > 7. Section 7.2.1. (Intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes) "As specified in > [RFC6514]…the RTs carried by that route MUST be chosen…" That > "MUST" is really in reference to rfc6514, so it shouldn't be > normative in this document. If you want to stress the "MUST", then > one solution could be to quote the relevant text; otherwise s/MUST/must [Eric] Okay, fixed. > 8. It would be nice if section names were used in addition to section > numbers when referring to them in the text — that would make it > easier to recall (or look forward to) the text w/out having to go > look at the TOC over and over. [Eric] The section numbers are inserted by means of the mechanism. I experimented with adding the section names by adding "" However, I found that xml2rfc often did not render the section names properly, so I had to back this out. I don't think it's a good practice to put the section names in by hand. > [This point may be able to be addressed by the RFC Editor.] It looks like you started doing this > in some places in Section 7, but it is not consistent. [Eric] Just an accident. > 9. In several places the text reads: "This document provides > procedures…" Please include a reference to the section where those > procedures are. [Eric] I'd like to be able to say "this document covers X but does not cover Y" without having to stop and give a complete set of references to every place in the document where something relevant to X is mentioned. Leaving out a reference would just introduce an error, and in any event the proper sections can be found in the ToC. > 10. Please expand on first use: > * s/S-PMSI/Selective Provider Multicast Service Interface (S-PMSI) > * s/SSM/source-specific multicast (SSM) > * s/I-PMSI/Inclusive-PMSI (I-PMSI) > * s/MI-PMSI/Multidirectional I-PMSI (MI-PMSI) [Eric] Done. > 11. References: Update the reference to rfc4601 to > draft-ietf-pim-rfc4601bis. [Eric] The last time I included a normative reference to an internet-draft, my document got stuck on the RFC Editor's queue for about 5 years! If 4601bis becomes an RFC before the extranet draft does (which I admit does seem likely), this change can be made during the AUTH48 period (probably the RFC Editor will do it automatically). > Nits: > > 1. Some replacements: > * s/misdelivery of data in those scenarios are outlined in those > Section 2.3/misdelivery of data in those scenarios are outlined > in Section 2.3 > * (6.3.1) s/and Each such/and each such > * (7.1) s/"corresponds to" to/"corresponds" to [Eric] Fixed. 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CAM18891; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:10:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:10:07 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml704-chm ([10.193.5.141]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:10:00 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: John E Drake , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRdWAgAG2mYCAAIk6AIAAEHUQgAAU5CCAAFYlwA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:10:00 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572188BB@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> 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931e9d747ab0bac78ef58d19d1933a01 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:10:18 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572188BBdfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaSBKb2huLA0KDQpJIGRvbuKAmXQga25vdyB3aGF0IGlzIHRoZSBmYXRlbCBmbGF3IGhlcmUu IFRoZSBzb2x1dGlvbiB3b3Jrcy4gSXQgaXMgbWF0dGVyIG9mIHRoZSBwcmVmZXJlbmNlLiBFdmVu IGlmIHRoZSB3YXkgb2YgVURQIHBvcnQgcHJvcG9zZWQgaW4gdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGlzIG5vdCBhY2Nl cHRhYmxlLCB3ZSBjYW4gdXNlIElQIGFkZHJlc3NlcyB0byBhY2hpZXZlIGl0LiBUaGUga2V5IGlz IHRoYXQgQkVTUyBXRyBuZWVkcyBvcHRpb24gQyBzb2x1dGlvbihzKSBmb3IgdGhlIHVzZSBjYXNl IHRoYXQgdGhlIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyBhcmUgY29udGV4dHMgd2hlcmUgb3ZlcmxheXMgYXJlIHBy 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(PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD3781B36A4 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAM19388; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:19:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.72) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:19:53 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml702-chm ([10.193.5.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:19:42 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "thomas.morin@orange.com" , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRII4XJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRdWAgAGfaICAAAMdAIAAtPuAgACwsYD//64UQA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 01:19:41 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572188CC@dfweml701-chm> References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> <8929_1447753042_564AF552_8929_4548_1_564AF551.7010205@orange.com> <34D2D141-D065-463F-A181-B037E26C544E@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572186D4@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US 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Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:23:55 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:23:50 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: John E Drake , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRdWAgAEwfYCAAIk6AIAAEQyAgAEUoac= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:23:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> <8929_1447753042_564AF552_8929_4548_1_564AF551.7010205@orange.com> <34D2D141-D065-463F-A181-B037E26C544E@alcatel-lucent.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E5185nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090205.564BFD5D.002D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 931e9d747ab0bac78ef58d19d1933a01 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 04:24:05 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E5185nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's for= warding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C= . Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encap= sulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation = to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C m= ethod, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-= d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only fo= r MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in dat= a center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous ne= twork interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required= for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enc= ap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa= re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali= ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool = for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. = If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO= R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F= or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm= ally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure sof= tware based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data = center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@junipe= r.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a= nd I don=92t support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first fi= gure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc =97 Snip =97 No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work = every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol= utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some= SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat= a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th= is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w= hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these = specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b= ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reason= s for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-p= lane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an applica= tion behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elemen= ts. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are = present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with= VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t= he state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the sol= ution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE= /TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is voi= d. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for o= ption c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too mu= ch impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NV= E so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don=92t need to change any of the T= OR/vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a val= id discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y= ou suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP= ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software= -based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du= mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o= n an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E5185nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

The problem we are trying to solve is = to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is = same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common practise = on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the WA= N network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, on= ly transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the sc= alability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXL= AN is becoming pervasive in data center,  the solution in this draft w= as proposed for the heterogeneous network interworking.

The advantage of this solution is that= only VXLAN encapsulation is required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, e= ast-west bound traffic uses VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic us= es MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

There are two solutions in this draft:=

1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP f= or stitching at ASBR-d.

No data plane modification requirement= s on OVS or TOR switches, only hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally = is router, it has capability to realize the hardware changes. It will consu= me many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand.

2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port fo= r stitching at ASBR-d.

Compared with solution 1, less IP addr= ess will be consumed for allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can= combine with solution 1 and 2.

In this solution, both data plane modi= fication changes are needed at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capabili= ty to realize the hardware changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data p= lane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function.  This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it h= as more scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay ne= twork is the majority case.

 

Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends = on the operators real envionment.

 

So I think our solution has no flaws, = it works fine.

Thanks,

weiguo

 

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on beha= lf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

 

I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated th= at this draft has fatal flaws and I don=92t support it.  I also agree = with his suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

 

Yours Irrespectively,

 

John

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 

=97 Snip =97

 

No, the spec as it is can be implemented in = its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VX= LAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 

WH> and how many ports simultaneously wou= ld they support? For this to work every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP = destination port/receive port. 

There might be SW elements that could do som= e of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be implemented across th= e board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engi= nes that I cannot be behind this solution. 

 

To make this work generically we will have t= o make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right way and gui= de the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these spec= ials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

 

- snip -

 

From: = "thomas.m= orin@orange.com" <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, BESS &= lt;bess@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):

Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone n= eed to describe requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to fo= r the reasons explained.


TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea= sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

WH> my point is what is the real driver f= or supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in t= his txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.<= /span>

 


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays= are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected= with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to red= uce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

 

WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch= /Application. I would make the solution flexible to support all of these no= t?





2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):


TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer= :
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

 

WH> b depends on the use case


I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". =

WH> see my above comment. If the real use= case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the disc= ussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option= c interworking with an IP based Fabric.


Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too= much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ?

 

WH> see above. The draft right now also r= equires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is= void.


No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 

WH> and how many ports simultaneously wou= ld they support?

 

WH> and depending on implementation you d= on=92t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.


Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

 

WH> any proposal on the table requires ch= anges, so for me this is not a valid discussion


See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches.



Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

 

WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me whi= ch switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?


I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas












 

From: = Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be read= y to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):

On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact th= at they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by th= e right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

 

WH> yes


I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?

 

 

 

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ler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que l=
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on,
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ponsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci

 


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--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E5185nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 22:25:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15ED81ACEBB for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:25:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fqgixT0Ogcn7 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:25:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x232.google.com (mail-ig0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FC591ACEB8 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:25:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by igvi2 with SMTP id i2so112687158igv.0 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:25:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nuagenetworks-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=hSEt5EVf8DXF4W9lPQbsD4SwFM2nxWgAcLuv0SDdzZw=; b=xLfk/f2s4td0ZIY8j1bnaBSvP7/6auOsddEFvp4bzuEeh/hvQymuUczkQ1JC2/UBzs GT2uPXxxt/LsMuuk7RBFMkpn93AOe8pcGH+vmVHUpbu5nU+YR9BYl157KM0D4lkbRwSV nfIGXm4W3q4AuCQ2czhM9jnNihFYIWcJN1RBYCnqGnJEyfhDGVDUBISmx0TzM4RRPLgr 3aq/lEXcO0TWrkhPPsFxI2Y/FTzYXM3tR2slC4/GBzcvQgfzKzFW3pztHiaMcvSzRP0t jCFtwS0V6Y3d0eJ1d5Nl50a2LEjWEDviPBNfBO65SsruRD8SyAdo0L+KwVirigGW1ly7 EZkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=hSEt5EVf8DXF4W9lPQbsD4SwFM2nxWgAcLuv0SDdzZw=; b=jxi4P/ImBLqDUFr2NCltXh5ZZ+yOcR0+pph8zM+V27mscyOc4+VsG0eKPKelrfjTBp I5b+ZfFHu2Ks+voxh+PO9fm7eNly/jTM78TXBfjpvP/7Ho8q6EaXp2vg8q+R77KCAibo I9VH+laYRIVHKZlC/L5T2KJB1DC8CdmEETozcH/lOVSuHiZNlbSa3rgC98PFbKpKyWbM IlCUBhncBjx0GqXBSkzdtYBHxU9k/WFCLGaqQNgaSqU+8+u7QAzrVDTeMec7ts3q/uqm 8h4b2SSFGZI1YTGVZHoKNa5VsqV0j02IdBsIe8cseYkWCVeI3Rh4tKtx6ky5uZldFXBL 9z6g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlQKsSORE4LNCGNGyEYZjLS3urRtFBEu3iO+tSHmKXGYaoIjNQDGQKCt1FOHSRjOUt4PbVW MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.150.37 with SMTP id uf5mr6443712igb.10.1447827922877; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.16.210 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:25:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:25:22 -0800 Message-ID: From: Diego Garcia del Rio To: bess@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2c3500a1a5e0524cab5fd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:25:29 -0000 --001a11c2c3500a1a5e0524cab5fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some comments from my side, I think the draft makes quite a few assumptions on specific implementation details that are way too general to be considered widely available. Most of the TOR devices today already pay a double-pass penalty when doing routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the newest generation can route into tunnels without additional passes. And are definitively limited in being able to arbitrary select UDP ports on a per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even limited at using more than one VNID per "service" of sorts. The IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assume, imply assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the ASBR-d is also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a technically "clean" solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As a side-note, most PE-grade routers i've worked with were quite limited in terms of IP addresses used for tunnel termination and it wasn't that just a simple pool can be used. Wim's mentions on cases where the Application itself, hosted in a datacenter, would be part of the option-C interconnect, was dismissed without much discussion so far, while, if we look in detail at the type of users which will even consider a complex topology like model-C its most likely users and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs in the WAN. Those type of operators will most likely be very interested in deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers or other VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the interconnect would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the virtual machine). Also, the use of UDP ports at random would imply quite complex logic on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its impossible, but since the received packet now not only has to be received on a random (though locally chosen) UDP port and this information preserved in the pipeline to be able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds quite complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has already been implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And let's not even bring into account what this would do to any DC middlebox that now has to look at vxlan over almost any random port. We have to go back to the "is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte x" heuristics to try to guess whether the packet is vxlan or just something entirely different running over IP. In general I feel the proposed solution seems to be fitting of a specific use-case which is not really detailed in the draft and does not describe a solution that would "elegantly" solve the issues at hand. It just feels like we're using any available bit-space to stuff data into places that do not necesarily belong. Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual switches are not yet fully available, and there can be some performance penalty on the TORs, but the solutions are much cleaner from a control and data plane point of view. Maybe I'm too utopic. Best regards, Diego ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous network interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws and I don=E2=80=99t support it. I also agree with his suggestion tha= t we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc =E2=80=94 Snip =E2=80=94 No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too much impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don=E2=80=99t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in vswitches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software-based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementations constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --001a11c2c3500a1a5e0524cab5fd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Some comments from my sid=
e,

I think the draft makes quite a few assumptions on specific implem=
entation details that are way too general to be considered widely available=
.
Most of the TOR devices today alrea=
dy pay a double-pass penalty when doing routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-=
type tunnels. Only the newest generation can route into tunnels without add=
itional passes. And are definitively limited in being able to arbitrary sel=
ect UDP ports on a per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even limited at usin=
g more than one VNID per "service" of sorts.
The IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assu=
me, imply assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the ASBR-d=
 is also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a technically "clean&q=
uot; solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As a side-note, most PE-grade=
 routers i've worked with were quite limited in terms of IP addresses u=
sed for tunnel termination and it wasn't that just a simple pool can be=
 used.
Wim's mentions on cases wh=
ere the Application itself, hosted in a datacenter, would be part of the op=
tion-C interconnect, was dismissed without much discussion so far, while, i=
f we look in detail at the type of users which will even consider a complex=
 topology like model-C its most likely users and operators very familiar wi=
th MPLS VPNs in the WAN. Those type of operators will most likely be very i=
nterested in deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-router=
s or other VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the interconnect=
 would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the virtual machi=
ne).
Also, the use of UDP ports at ra=
ndom would imply quite complex logic on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its =
impossible, but since the received packet now not only has to be received o=
n a random (though locally chosen) UDP port and this information preserved =
in the pipeline to be able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds qui=
te complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has already bee=
n implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And let's not=
 even bring into account what this would do to any DC middlebox that now ha=
s to look at vxlan over almost any random port. We have to go back to the &=
quot;is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte x" heuristics to try to guess whet=
her the packet is vxlan or just something entirely different running over I=
P.
In general I feel the proposed sol=
ution seems to be fitting of a specific use-case which is not really detail=
ed in the draft and does not describe   a solution that would "elegant=
ly" solve the issues at hand. It just feels like we're using any a=
vailable bit-space to stuff data into places that do not necesarily belong.=
 
Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual=
 switches are not yet fully available, and there can be some performance pe=
nalty on the TORs, but the solutions are much cleaner from a control and da=
ta plane point of view. Maybe I'm too utopic.

Best regards,
= 
Diego



-------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's=
 forwarding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN opti=
on-C. Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN e=
ncapsulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulat=
ion to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Op=
tion-C method, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at =
GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is=
 only for MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasiv=
e in data center,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the heteroge=
neous network interworking.

The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required=
 for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN=
 encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

There are two solutions in this draft:

1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.

No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa=
re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali=
ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool =
for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand.

2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.

Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. =
If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2.

In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO=
R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F=
or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm=
ally can't realize this function.  This solution mainly focuses on pure=
 software based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud d=
ata center, software based overlay network is the majority case.



Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment.



So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.

Thanks,

weiguo



________________________________
From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrak=
e@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a=
nd I don=E2=80=99t support it.  I also agree with his suggestion that we fi=
rst figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

Yours Irrespectively,

John

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ie=
tf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.co=
m; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

=E2=80=94 Snip =E2=80=94

No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing=
 vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for=
 the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough =
VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to wo=
rk every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port.
There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol=
utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some=
 SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat=
a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution.

To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th=
is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w=
hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these =
specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

- snip -

From: "thomas.morin@orange.=
com<mailto:thomas.morin@o=
range.com>" <thom=
as.morin@orange.com<mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com>>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>>, B=
ESS <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b=
ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained.

TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea=
sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.
WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN dat=
a-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an appl=
ication behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR ele=
ments.


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays are =
present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with=
 VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t=
he state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical=
ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the =
solution flexible to support all of these not?




2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):

TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer=
:
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified =
in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS=
/MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

WH> b depends on the use case

I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case".
WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind =
NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is =
void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement fo=
r option c interworking with an IP based Fabric.

Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don'=
;t think one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too=
 much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o=
r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a=
n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no=
t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in =
mind ?

WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR=
/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void.

No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing=
 vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for=
 the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough =
VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support?

WH> and depending on implementation you don=E2=80=99t need to change any=
 of the TOR/vswitches.

Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any=
 of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a =
valid discussion

See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v=
switches.



Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple=
ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre=
nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo=
rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y=
ou suggest harder to implement.

WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple =
UDP ports for VXLAN ?

I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo=
r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas













From: Thomas Morin <thomas.mo=
rin@orange.com<mailto:tho=
mas.morin@orange.com>>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>" <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations=
 that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a=
chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con=
text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re=
lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the =
issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical =
ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software=
-based switches may not be ready to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation=
s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du=
mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o=
n an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

WH> yes

I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?





___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message=
s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al=
tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th=
is message was modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9l-GsvoD9hgp for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (p-mail2.rd.orange.com [161.106.1.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBBA1B38EA for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 52622E300A9; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by p-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B31E300A3; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:40 +0100 To: Ravi Singh , "bess@ietf.org" , "draft-singh-bess-bgp-vpls-control-flags@tools.ietf.org" , Kireeti Kompella , "senad.palislamovic@alcatel-lucent.com" References: <11235_1442303016_55F7CC28_11235_334_2_55F7CC27.9020002@orange.com> <15187_1444030111_5612269F_15187_570_1_5612269E.9040106@orange.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <564CA522.6000609@orange.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Poll for adoption: draft-singh-bess-bgp-vpls-control-flags -> adopted X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:20:47 -0000 Hi working group, We have a new working group document. Authors, can you please repost as draft-ietf-bess-bgp-vpls-control-flags ? Thank you, -Thomas/Martin 2015-10-26, Ravi Singh: > Hi Thomas, Martin >> Before adopting this draft, we would like hear people actually experiencing pain >> related to not solving this issue and hear about implementations in actual >> products. > > In a network where some BGP-VPLS PEs have ability to insert CW and some do not, not implementing section 3 has potential to cause the PW to not come up or cause dropped packets (depending on implementation). > Section 3 of this draft is implemented in JunOS. See last paragraph on > http://www.juniper.net/techpubs/en_US/junos14.1/topics/concept/vpls-bgp-control-word-overview.html > This was implemented in response to a specific-network-deployment-issue. > > The key aspect of RFC4761 that necessitates the text of section 3 of this draft is that the NLRI-advertising-PE is predicating on all other PEs in the same VPLS, that they must or must-not insert the CW, for example, regardless of whether they have the capability or not. [See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4761#section-3.2.4] > This is in contrast to the proposed modification (for a different purpose) where this PE is just advertising its ability (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-fat-pw-bgp-00#section-2) > > The proposed text in section 3 provides a way around presumption of other-PEs' abilities. > Section 4 provides an extension of the same intent for a deployment where the transport LSP maybe a p2mp LSP. > Section 5 generalizes the previous sections as deployed to multi-homing scenarios. > > Both p2mp and multi-homing have some deployments and may run into the issue. > > Regards > Ravi > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: thomas.morin@orange.com [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 5, 2015 12:29 AM >> To: bess@ietf.org; draft-singh-bess-bgp-vpls-control-flags@tools.ietf.org; Ravi >> Singh ; Kireeti Kompella ; >> senad.palislamovic@alcatel-lucent.com >> Subject: Re: [bess] Poll for adoption: draft-singh-bess-bgp-vpls-control-flags >> >> Authors of draft-singh-bess-bgp-vpls-control-flags, working group, >> >> The support base for this proposal is not large. >> Before adopting this draft, we would like hear people actually experiencing pain >> related to not solving this issue and hear about implementations in actual >> products. >> >> Let's consider this poll for adoption open until we hear more. >> >> Best, >> >> Thomas/Martin >> >> >> thomas.morin@orange.com : >>> Hello working group, >>> >>> This email starts a two-week poll on adopting >>> draft-singh-bess-bgp-vpls-control-flags-01 [1] as a working group item. >>> >>> Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or >>> not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >>> >>> This poll runs until **September 29th**. >>> >>> >>> *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that >>> applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in >>> compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for >>> more details). >>> >>> ==> *If* you are listed as a document author or contributor please >>> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any >>> relevant IPR. >>> >>> The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from >>> each author and contributor. >>> >>> If you are not listed as an author or contributor, then please >>> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet >>> been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Martin & Thomas >>> bess chairs >>> >>> [1] >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-singh-bess-bgp-vpls-control-flags >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From nobody Wed Nov 18 14:22:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290AA1B30D9; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:22:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9zxg-jMyUX4d; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1889F1B30CD; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:22:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=298; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447885364; x=1449094964; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; 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Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:22:42 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:22:42 -0600 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Eric C Rosen , "draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-03 Thread-Index: AQHRHYNvyjwvQsIUU0exAcHYeBpG+Z6hKLsAgAFMRAA= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:22:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <564B9D24.6030000@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <564B9D24.6030000@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <8FAF67532AD9044C8FAB03A03C682706@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" , "VIGOUREUX, MARTIN \(MARTIN\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] AD Review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet-03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:22:45 -0000 On 11/17/15, 4:33 PM, "Eric C Rosen" wrote: >[Eric] Alvaro, thanks for your review. I just posted revision -04, >with a number of edits made in response to your comments. Thanks! I've requested IETF Last Call and put the document on the Telechat agenda. Alvaro. From nobody Wed Nov 18 14:46:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietf.org Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3647F1B32CB; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:46:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.10.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: Message-ID: <20151118224610.17016.65486.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:46:10 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet@ietf.org, aretana@cisco.com, bess-chairs@ietf.org, martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com, bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] Last Call: (Extranet Multicast in BGP/IP MPLS VPNs) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:46:10 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the BGP Enabled Services WG (bess) to consider the following document: - 'Extranet Multicast in BGP/IP MPLS VPNs' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2015-12-04. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract Previous RFCs specify the procedures necessary to allow IP multicast traffic to travel from one site to another within a BGP/MPLS IP VPN (Virtual Private Network). However, it is sometimes desirable to allow multicast traffic whose source is in one VPN to be received by systems that are in another VPN. This is known as a "Multicast VPN (MVPN) extranet". This document updates RFCs 6513, 6514, and 6625 by specifying the procedures that are necessary in order to provide MVPN extranet service. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-extranet/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Thu Nov 19 01:38:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41971B30B6 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 01:37:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zOZrLmj0VIbd for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 01:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E0621B30B5 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 01:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEI13909; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:37:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:37:10 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:37:04 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "sajassi@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol Thread-Index: AdEirdmXBPWsQMhISYiAQaPGk2uv3A== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:37:04 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E5B76nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.564D9849.015A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: db8b83b2af14b90a6d8e31ad842a2a88 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:37:19 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E5B76nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Co-authors, Through ARP process, each EVPN PE can learn local connecting CE=92s MAC and= IP correspondence, and will notify the MAC and IP association to all remot= e PEs through Route-type2 message. Theoretically, each remote PE can rely o= n the single route-type2 message to populate local Mac VRF(MAC table) , ARP= Cache and IP VRF(IP routing table) at the same time. However, some vendor = doesn=92t do in this way. In its implementation, each PE will notify two ro= ute-type2 message to remote PEs, one message(say message 1) only carry MAC = information(IP field is invalid), another message(say message 2) carry MAC = and IP association information. The remote PEs rely on message 1 to populat= e local MAC VRF, and rely on message 2 to populate local ARP Cache and IP V= RF. I think EVPN protocol should give a clear suggestion for route type-2 messa= ge usage, what=92s the scenario to announce only one message and what=92s s= cenario to announce two messages? Thanks, weiguo --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E5B76nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">Hi Co-authors,

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">Through ARP process, each EVPN PE = can learn local connecting CE=92s MAC and IP correspondence, and will notif= y the MAC and IP association to all remote PEs through Route-type2 message. Theoretically, each remote PE can rely on the= single route-type2 message to populate local Mac VRF(MAC table) , ARP Cach= e and IP VRF(IP routing table) at the same time. However, some vendor doesn= =92t do in this way. In its implementation, each PE will notify two route-type2 message to remote PEs, one message(say= message 1) only carry MAC information(IP field is invalid), another messag= e(say message 2) carry MAC and IP association information. The remote PEs r= ely on message 1 to populate local MAC VRF, and rely on message 2 to populate local ARP Cache and IP VRF.

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"> 

I think EVPN protocol should give a clear suggestion for route type-2 messag= e usage, what=92s the scenario to announce only one message and what=92s sc= enario to announce two messages?

 

Thanks,

weiguo

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E5B76nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 02:55:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1891B31E7 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 02:53:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TFH5wgdKdwHq for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 02:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (p-mail2.rd.orange.com [161.106.1.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34151B31E6 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 02:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 150C2E300AE for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:53:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by p-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CDC1E3008C for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:52:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:52:49 +0100 To: References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:52:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:53:04 -0000 I don't believe the discussion can be usefully summarized in terms of "fatal flaws". Let me try to summarize my understanding of the thing discussed in this thread. The solution in the draft has an impact on ASBR hardware due to the new kind of stitching required (as well summarized by Diego). Whether this is a big issue or not depends on the vendor. The solution in the draft, for the NVE part, would be implementable in software quite easily. But, because of the limitations in the widespread ToR chipsets for VXLAN (and their lack of support for MPLS/(GRE or UDP)), its multiple-UDP-port variant would be harder to implement in ToRs or at least not without a performance hit (people who know that better, feel free to correct). The multiple-loopback approach has operational drawbacks, but whether or not these are killer issues may depend on the targeted scale (in terms of number of NVEs) and may depend on other factors (operator practices, ability to automate ASBR configs). The alternative approach, put forward by Wim, consist in using existing Option-C with a variant of the 3-label variant relying on an MPLS/MPLS/UDP-or-GRE encap (instead of the 3-label MPLS stack). This approach would not necessitate new standardized procedures, would require less changes on ASBRs. However it is not supported today by vswitches or ToRs (unless the bottom MPLS label is passed to the VM, which I think would restrict the application to a subset of the scenarios for which Option C is interesting). Having it supported in vswitches may be a simple matter of writing the software, but ToR support seems to require evolution in chipsets ; whether such a support is likely to appear hasn't been discussed in the thread. All in all, it seems there is no solution to cover an Option C scenario with today's generation ToRs, and the question for tomorrow's generation ToRs hasn't been really discussed. Based on the above, I would think the question boils down to whether it is desirable to specify an Option C variant usable with vswitches as they are today and possibly usable with a performance hit with today's ToRs chipsets, at the expense of a required evolution on ASBRs. The alternative requiring some evolution on vswitches and waiting for future ToRs chipsets. -Thomas Zhuangshunwan : > > Hi Diego, > > Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent]. > > Vincent > > *å‘件人:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Diego Garcia del Rio > *å‘é€æ—¶é—´:*2015å¹´11月18æ—¥14:25 > *收件人:*bess@ietf.org > *主题:*Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > Some comments from my side, > I think the draft makes quite a few assumptions on specific > implementation details that are way too general to be considered > widely available. > Most of the TOR devices today already pay a double-pass penalty when > doing routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the newest > generation can route into tunnels without additional passes. And are > definitively limited in being able to arbitrary select UDP ports on a > per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even limited at using more than > one VNID per "service" of sorts. > [Vincent]: Yes, the new generation BCM chipset has already supported > VXLAN routing without additional passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN > encapsulation is more popular than MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better > performance. > The IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assume, imply > assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the ASBR-d is > also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a technically "clean" > solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As a side-note, most PE-grade > routers i've worked with were quite limited in terms of IP addresses > used for tunnel termination and it wasn't that just a simple pool can > be used. > [Vincent]: I think the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d has no > limitations. For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to > terminate multiple VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP IP > addresses. > Wim's mentions on cases where the Application itself, hosted in a > datacenter, would be part of the option-C interconnect, was dismissed > without much discussion so far, while, if we look in detail at the > type of users which will even consider a complex topology like model-C > its most likely users and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs in > the WAN. Those type of operators will most likely be very interested > in deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers or > other VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the interconnect > would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the virtual > machine). > Also, the use of UDP ports at random would imply quite complex logic > on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its impossible, but since the > received packet now not only has to be received on a random (though > locally chosen) UDP port and this information preserved in the > pipeline to be able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds quite > complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has already > been implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And let's not > even bring into account what this would do to any DC middlebox that > now has to look at vxlan over almost any random port. We have to go > back to the "is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte x" heuristics to try to > guess whether the packet is vxlan or just something entirely different > running over IP. > [Vincent]: Using NP or multi-core CPU hardware technology, it can be > implemented although deeper packet inspection is needed to perform UDP > port and MPLS stitching. > In general I feel the proposed solution seems to be fitting of a > specific use-case which is not really detailed in the draft and does > not describe a solution that would "elegantly" solve the issues at > hand. It just feels like we're using any available bit-space to stuff > data into places that do not necesarily belong. > Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual switches are not yet fully > available, and there can be some performance penalty on the TORs, but > the solutions are much cleaner from a control and data plane point of > view. Maybe I'm too utopic. > [Vincent]: I think pure VXLAN solution has its scenario, it's general > rather than specific. We can't require all OVS/NVEs support VXLAN + > MPLSoGRE at the same time. > Best regards, > Diego > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi, > The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center > GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as > traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common practise on > ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing > table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d > needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport > layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the > scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for > MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in > data center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the > heterogeneous network interworking. > The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is > required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic > uses VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. > There are two solutions in this draft: > 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. > No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only > hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has > capability to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many IP > addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on > ASBR-d beforehand. > 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. > Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for > allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with > solution 1 and 2. > In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at > OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware > changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR > switch, it normally can't realize this function. This solution mainly > focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more > scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay > network is the majority case. > Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. > So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. > Thanks, > weiguo > ________________________________ > From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on > behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net ] > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 > To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com > ; BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > Hi, > I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal > flaws and I don’t support it. I also agree with his suggestion that > we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. > Yours Irrespectively, > John > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM > To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com ; BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > — Snip — > No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with > existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination > port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). > (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible > enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) > WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to > work every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive > port. > There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF > defines solutions which should be implemented across the board > HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will > impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be behind > this solution. > To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. > Given this, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to > a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will > stick with these specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). > - snip - > From: "thomas.morin@orange.com > >" >> > Organization: Orange > Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 > To: Wim Henderickx >>, BESS >> > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > Hi Wim, WG, > 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe > requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the > reasons explained. > TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the > reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. > WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN > data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where > an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the > NVE/TOR elements. > My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays > are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be > interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to > want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. > In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would > typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. > WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make > the solution flexible to support all of these not? > 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: > (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior > specified in this draft) > or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support > MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) > WH> b depends on the use case > I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". > WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application > behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on > NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real > driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based Fabric. > Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I > don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. > WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: > too much impact on the data-planes > I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in > MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs > and vswitches. > Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet > assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this > certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had > you something else in mind ? > WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing > TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void. > No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with > existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination > port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). > (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible > enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) > WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? > WH> and depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of > the TOR/vswitches. > Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to > change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? > WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not > a valid discussion > See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes > in vswitches. > Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to > implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of > MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as > making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. > WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles > multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ? > I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination > port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. > -Thomas > From: Thomas Morin >> > Organization: Orange > Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 > To: Wim Henderickx >> > Cc: "bess@ietf.org >" >> > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > Hi Wim, > I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to > implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports > (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware > implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing > multiple IPs would be operationally viable. > However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you > propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) > encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported > or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this > kind of encap, and even software-based switches may not be ready to > support that today). > My take is that having different options to adapt to various > implementations constraints we may have would have value. > (+ one question below on VXLAN...) > -Thomas > 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with > a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a > sender based on an ARP request when needed ? > Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? > WH> yes > I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? > From nobody Thu Nov 19 07:03:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616941B2B24 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:03:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: 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(8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id tAJHiaDg021121; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:46:38 -0500 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049461.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 1y6009geqx-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:46:37 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJHka2K005842; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:46:37 -0500 Received: from mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.241]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJHkLXD005554 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:46:30 -0500 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.150]) by mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:46:02 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRCD.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.4.86]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:46:02 -0500 From: "UTTARO, JAMES" To: Haoweiguo , John E Drake , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRdWAgAIKa4CAAIk6AIAAEQyAgACgdYCAAFnwwA== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:46:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> <8929_1447753042_564AF552_8929_4548_1_564AF551.7010205@orange.com> <34D2D141-D065-463F-A181-B037E26C544E@alcatel-lucent.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.112.179] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4D2A4MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2015-11-19_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1507310000 definitions=main-1511190291 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:46:57 -0000 --_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4D2A4MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A concern I have with this draft is that it pre-supposes the network archit= ecture in terms of how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and W= AN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that?? Jim Uttaro From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BES= S Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's for= warding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C= . Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encap= sulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation = to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C m= ethod, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-= d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only fo= r MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in dat= a center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous ne= twork interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required= for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enc= ap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa= re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali= ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool = for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. = If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO= R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F= or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm= ally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure sof= tware based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data = center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@junipe= r.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a= nd I don't support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first figu= re out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc - Snip - No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work = every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol= utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some= SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat= a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th= is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w= hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these = specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b= ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reason= s for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-p= lane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an applica= tion behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elemen= ts. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are = present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with= VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t= he state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the sol= ution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE= /TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is voi= d. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for o= ption c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too mu= ch impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NV= E so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don't need to change any of the TOR= /vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a val= id discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y= ou suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP= ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software= -based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du= mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o= n an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4D2A4MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A concern I have wi= th this draft is that it pre-supposes the network architecture in terms of = how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and WAN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that??  

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: BESS [ma= ilto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM
To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.c= om; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Hi,

The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/A= SBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS V= PN option-C. Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then= perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain al= l VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport layer information needed = to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS= VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data cent= er,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous net= work interworking.

The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation = is required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic use= s VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

There are two solutions in this draft:

1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.

No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, = only hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capabili= ty to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR= -d beforehand.

2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.

Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for a= llocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 a= nd 2.

In this solution, both data plane modification changes are neede= d at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware= changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function.&nbs= p; This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it = has more scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay n= etwork is the majority case.

 

Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envi= onment.

 

So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.

Thanks,

weiguo

 

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org]= on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

 =

I think Wim has conclusiv= ely demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws and I don’t support = it.  I also agree with his suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

 =

Yours Irrespectively,

 =

John

 =

From: BESS [mailto:bes= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@or= ange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

— Snip —=

 =

No, the spec as it is can b= e implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows= to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports s= imultaneously would they support? For this to work every tenant needs a dif= ferent VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. 

There might be SW elements = that could do some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be impl= emented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engi= nes that I cannot be behind this solution. 

 =

To make this work generical= ly we will have to make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the = right way and guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials = forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

 =

- snip -

 =

From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, BESS &= lt;bess@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

Thomas, we can discuss fore= ver and someone need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I c= annot agree to for the reasons explained.


TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea= sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

WH> my point is what is = the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases= I have seen in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.<= span style=3D"color:black">

 =


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays= are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected= with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to red= uce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

 =

WH2> can it not be all c= ases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to suppor= t all of these not?




2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim= (Wim):


TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer= :
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

 =

WH> b depends on the use= case


I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". =

WH> see my above comment= . If the real use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, = than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c in= terworking with an IP based Fabric.=


Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too= much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ?

 =

WH> see above. The draft= right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this dis= cussion/debate is void.


No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports s= imultaneously would they support?

 =

WH> and depending on imp= lementation you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.=


Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

 =

WH> any proposal on the = table requires changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion


See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches.


Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

 =

WH> I would disagree to = this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?


I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas








 

 =

From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be read= y to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with = a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

 =

WH> yes


I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?

 =

 =

 = 

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--_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4D2A4MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 10:01:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43B11B33A5 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:01:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evTmLJZOM9Fj for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F00781B33A6 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by ioir85 with SMTP id r85so97598838ioi.1 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:00:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nuagenetworks-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+F4nNpx8p07T9dN1P0Lo+jWcxG0rOKvZCn4cseIPP68=; b=tXTsCghF9A7/sZtHmrRxNd7naxKZb8fuK2TLGrHAbFeztJ6oJaTtQRjO92En7wiLBb nr24+MlPD1nF50rN2EsYj8jsqugzEfWbhPmBL+qMcFPpXvdZodomfnlMMn9F+mcn5GCr wVxdbbaOpfCCSbOsPH3v/uQ6pN0Lqt7xKzPrfJO5OX1xCxVpizE751Tx43RPtymxXBSi +rLvYHWdi31GXLDu3tkDzutgmt+v5ZywamOWj9OPdY8A5o6yBOyixqG5f/5bLHfllLL0 azbfChdUdr4hqt8h40dxA/iZSLeVclVA2M52WHssCn1WN8by533LPjza9l+GUjSDNLZT 9n7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=+F4nNpx8p07T9dN1P0Lo+jWcxG0rOKvZCn4cseIPP68=; b=Br/naeLMjFztdKoj70Z14BGVTsBhub33V+Mx3uxA12a90q28ioYHaudekSNxeI6LvW VOXTmJ9kbMbMo8tsOIivh0xgAedaaGmfybb2pXkqSHi9Fi2MmnQBNmfz6FdwiNZyqF+b klTSiLX0NUAoAyFQmH/twmCzK1odd+9aSucnFWnq+mbbR0NyyQfAxgOmVornv/EDmk0q A35iZsm1aDMQPhgNOA1da2zxWeAp8kHPJmJtNOWhVSuu5U/mpmyslqQYbxgzOzI1FBDA ZB/dqMiZCZvf/2IkYfsCU8V0h36KvYfz/ls24Oq07l6OQHBoc6Twr8jyxWGtUoIiPdhj 0Jnw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk8uJhiKsFzRmQpqIGVy5ICo8UAclu8fEFig+7kVM5Yx4+S4q/atTA/LLgKt4cl9oiTt4TY MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.150.208 with SMTP id y199mr9689906iod.146.1447956056812; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.16.210 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:00:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:00:56 -0800 Message-ID: From: Diego Garcia del Rio To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141bb986aeacc0524e88a4c Archived-At: Cc: Thomas Morin , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:01:04 -0000 --001a1141bb986aeacc0524e88a4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Weiguo, If we're really talking about a public cloud operator where MOST of the endpoints would be software, interconnecting DC and WAN environments seems pretty blunt to be honest. You're going to be leaking every single /32 IP address of the virtual machines into the wide area and most carriers tend to avoid that kind of thing since its quite disrutptive in terms of scalability. Furthermore, wim's proposal does NOT imply changes on the east-west traffic patterns. Those would remain on vxlan or whatever new encapsulation we manage to come up with at NVO3. Model C interconnect presuposes a high trust relationship between both parties, and if the cloud and WAN are operated by the same company, that is valid. Finally, as wim also mentions, the issue of the globally allocated VNIDs is quite an issue. This affects the existing TORs since now all the WAN PEs would have to organize themselves not to ever allocate overlapping labels (then converted to VNIDs) since the DC gear today cannot handle using the same VNID on different "services". Again, you dismiss the top of racks, but I don't think we can propose a standard that just simply ignores a good chunk of the DC space. And at the same time, all the DC edge routers where we propose to implement these complex mapping have larger and larger scaling tables with route capacities in the order of millions of prefixes these days. And while model A has the burden of provisioning the DC edge with the VRF instance, the fact it can do prefix lookups means it doesnt need to leak every single /32 to the wide area and instead expose the aggregates. Best Regards, On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) < wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > Thomas, thx for the time summarising this and great summary. > > > > > On 19/11/15 02:52, "BESS on behalf of Thomas Morin" on behalf of thomas.morin@orange.com> wrote: > > >I don't believe the discussion can be usefully summarized in terms of > >"fatal flaws". > >Let me try to summarize my understanding of the thing discussed in this > >thread. > > > >The solution in the draft has an impact on ASBR hardware due to the new > >kind of stitching required (as well summarized by Diego). Whether this > >is a big issue or not depends on the vendor. The solution in the draft, > >for the NVE part, would be implementable in software quite easily. But, > >because of the limitations in the widespread ToR chipsets for VXLAN (and > >their lack of support for MPLS/(GRE or UDP)), its multiple-UDP-port > >variant would be harder to implement in ToRs or at least not without a > >performance hit (people who know that better, feel free to correct). > > WH> some HW cannot do this at all, so lets dismiss this idea. > > >The multiple-loopback approach has operational drawbacks, but whether or > >not these are killer issues may depend on the targeted scale (in terms > >of number of NVEs) and may depend on other factors (operator practices, > >ability to automate ASBR configs). > > WH> ok now we have not discussed the constraints some HW vendors have wit= h > respect to global VNIDs. To make this work all VNID/Labels need to be > globally unique. Hmmmmm > > > > >The alternative approach, put forward by Wim, consist in using existing > >Option-C with a variant of the 3-label variant relying on an > >MPLS/MPLS/UDP-or-GRE encap (instead of the 3-label MPLS stack). This > >approach would not necessitate new standardized procedures, would > >require less changes on ASBRs. However it is not supported today by > >vswitches or ToRs (unless the bottom MPLS label is passed to the VM, > >which I think would restrict the application to a subset of the > >scenarios for which Option C is interesting). Having it supported in > >vswitches may be a simple matter of writing the software, but ToR > >support seems to require evolution in chipsets ; whether such a support > >is likely to appear hasn't been discussed in the thread. > > > >All in all, it seems there is no solution to cover an Option C scenario > >with today's generation ToRs, and the question for tomorrow's generation > >ToRs hasn't been really discussed. > > > >Based on the above, I would think the question boils down to whether it > >is desirable to specify an Option C variant usable with vswitches as > >they are today and possibly usable with a performance hit with today's > >ToRs chipsets, at the expense of a required evolution on ASBRs. The > >alternative requiring some evolution on vswitches and waiting for future > >ToRs chipsets. > > WH> I vote for a an evolution of switches/TORs that have proper support > for this. > I hope some HW vendors of TOR chips shime in, but I am told the MPLS > solution is possible in the next generation chips they are working on. > > The other options requires baggage forever on the ASBR elements that does > not bring value and it is better to avoid this and build an architecture > which is future proof and more cost effective. My 2 cents > > > >-Thomas > > > > > >Zhuangshunwan : > >> > >> Hi Diego, > >> > >> Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent]. > >> > >> Vincent > >> > >> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *=E4= =BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Diego Garcia del Rio > >> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2015=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8818=E6= =97=A514:25 > >> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*bess@ietf.org > >> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > >> > >> Some comments from my side, > >> I think the draft makes quite a few assumptions on specific > >> implementation details that are way too general to be considered > >> widely available. > >> Most of the TOR devices today already pay a double-pass penalty when > >> doing routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the newest > >> generation can route into tunnels without additional passes. And are > >> definitively limited in being able to arbitrary select UDP ports on a > >> per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even limited at using more than > >> one VNID per "service" of sorts. > >> [Vincent]: Yes, the new generation BCM chipset has already supported > >> VXLAN routing without additional passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN > >> encapsulation is more popular than MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better > >> performance. > >> The IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assume, imply > >> assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the ASBR-d is > >> also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a technically "clean" > >> solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As a side-note, most PE-grade > >> routers i've worked with were quite limited in terms of IP addresses > >> used for tunnel termination and it wasn't that just a simple pool can > >> be used. > >> [Vincent]: I think the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d has no > >> limitations. For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to > >> terminate multiple VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP IP > >> addresses. > >> Wim's mentions on cases where the Application itself, hosted in a > >> datacenter, would be part of the option-C interconnect, was dismissed > >> without much discussion so far, while, if we look in detail at the > >> type of users which will even consider a complex topology like model-C > >> its most likely users and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs in > >> the WAN. Those type of operators will most likely be very interested > >> in deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers or > >> other VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the interconnect > >> would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the virtual > >> machine). > >> Also, the use of UDP ports at random would imply quite complex logic > >> on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its impossible, but since the > >> received packet now not only has to be received on a random (though > >> locally chosen) UDP port and this information preserved in the > >> pipeline to be able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds quite > >> complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has already > >> been implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And let's not > >> even bring into account what this would do to any DC middlebox that > >> now has to look at vxlan over almost any random port. We have to go > >> back to the "is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte x" heuristics to try to > >> guess whether the packet is vxlan or just something entirely different > >> running over IP. > >> [Vincent]: Using NP or multi-core CPU hardware technology, it can be > >> implemented although deeper packet inspection is needed to perform UDP > >> port and MPLS stitching. > >> In general I feel the proposed solution seems to be fitting of a > >> specific use-case which is not really detailed in the draft and does > >> not describe a solution that would "elegantly" solve the issues at > >> hand. It just feels like we're using any available bit-space to stuff > >> data into places that do not necesarily belong. > >> Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual switches are not yet fully > >> available, and there can be some performance penalty on the TORs, but > >> the solutions are much cleaner from a control and data plane point of > >> view. Maybe I'm too utopic. > >> [Vincent]: I think pure VXLAN solution has its scenario, it's general > >> rather than specific. We can't require all OVS/NVEs support VXLAN + > >> MPLSoGRE at the same time. > >> Best regards, > >> Diego > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- > >> Hi, > >> The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center > >> GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as > >> traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common practise on > >> ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing > >> table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d > >> needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport > >> layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the > >> scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for > >> MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in > >> data center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the > >> heterogeneous network interworking. > >> The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is > >> required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic > >> uses VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP > encap. > >> There are two solutions in this draft: > >> 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. > >> No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only > >> hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has > >> capability to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many IP > >> addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on > >> ASBR-d beforehand. > >> 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. > >> Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for > >> allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with > >> solution 1 and 2. > >> In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at > >> OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware > >> changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR > >> switch, it normally can't realize this function. This solution mainly > >> focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more > >> scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay > >> network is the majority case. > >> Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment= . > >> So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. > >> Thanks, > >> weiguo > >> ________________________________ > >> From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on > >> behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net = ] > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 > >> To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com > >> ; BESS > >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > >> Hi, > >> I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal > >> flaws and I don=E2=80=99t support it. I also agree with his suggestio= n that > >> we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving > it. > >> Yours Irrespectively, > >> John > >> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org > >> ] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM > >> To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com ; > BESS > >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > >> =E2=80=94 Snip =E2=80=94 > >> No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with > >> existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination > >> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). > >> (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible > >> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) > >> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to > >> work every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive > >> port. > >> There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF > >> defines solutions which should be implemented across the board > >> HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will > >> impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be behind > >> this solution. > >> To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. > >> Given this, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to > >> a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will > >> stick with these specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). > >> - snip - > >> From: "thomas.morin@orange.com > >> >> >" >> >> >> > >> Organization: Orange > >> Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 > >> To: Wim Henderickx >> wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com > >> >>, BESS >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > >> Hi Wim, WG, > >> 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > >> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > >> Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe > >> requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the > >> reasons explained. > >> TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the > >> reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. > >> WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN > >> data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where > >> an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the > >> NVE/TOR elements. > >> My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays > >> are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be > >> interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to > >> want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. > >> In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would > >> typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. > >> WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make > >> the solution flexible to support all of these not? > >> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > >> TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you > prefer: > >> (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior > >> specified in this draft) > >> or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support > >> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) > >> WH> b depends on the use case > >> I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". > >> WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application > >> behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on > >> NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real > >> driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based Fabric. > >> Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I > >> don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss the > proposal. > >> WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: > >> too much impact on the data-planes > >> I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in > >> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs > >> and vswitches. > >> Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet > >> assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this > >> certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had > >> you something else in mind ? > >> WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing > >> TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void. > >> No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with > >> existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination > >> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). > >> (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible > >> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) > >> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? > >> WH> and depending on implementation you don=E2=80=99t need to change a= ny of > >> the TOR/vswitches. > >> Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to > >> change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? > >> WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not > >> a valid discussion > >> See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes > >> in vswitches. > >> Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to > >> implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > >> based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of > >> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as > >> making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. > >> WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles > >> multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ? > >> I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination > >> port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft > proposes. > >> -Thomas > >> From: Thomas Morin >> >> >> > >> Organization: Orange > >> Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 > >> To: Wim Henderickx >> wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com > >> >> > >> Cc: "bess@ietf.org >> >" >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > >> Hi Wim, > >> I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to > >> implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports > >> (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware > >> implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing > >> multiple IPs would be operationally viable. > >> However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you > >> propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) > >> encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported > >> or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this > >> kind of encap, and even software-based switches may not be ready to > >> support that today). > >> My take is that having different options to adapt to various > >> implementations constraints we may have would have value. > >> (+ one question below on VXLAN...) > >> -Thomas > >> 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > >> On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with > >> a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a > >> sender based on an ARP request when needed ? > >> Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? > >> WH> yes > >> I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >BESS mailing list > >BESS@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > --001a1141bb986aeacc0524e88a4c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Weiguo,

If we're really talking = about a public cloud operator where MOST of the endpoints would be software= , interconnecting DC and WAN environments seems pretty blunt to be honest. = You're going to be leaking every single /32 IP address of the virtual m= achines into the wide area and most carriers tend to avoid that kind of thi= ng since its quite disrutptive in terms of scalability.

Furthermore, wim's proposal does NOT imply changes on the east-we= st traffic patterns. Those would remain on vxlan or whatever new encapsulat= ion we manage to come up with at NVO3.

Model C int= erconnect presuposes a high trust relationship between both parties, and if= the cloud and WAN are operated by the same company, that is valid.

Finally, as wim also mentions, the issue of the globally = allocated VNIDs is quite an issue. This affects the existing TORs since now= all the WAN PEs would have to organize themselves not to ever allocate ove= rlapping labels (then converted to VNIDs) since the DC gear today cannot ha= ndle using the same VNID on different "services".=C2=A0

Again, you dismiss the top of racks, but I don't think = we can propose a standard that just simply ignores a good chunk of the DC s= pace.

And at the same time, all the DC edge router= s where we propose to implement these complex mapping have larger and large= r scaling tables with route capacities in the order of millions of prefixes= these days. And while model A has the burden of provisioning the DC edge w= ith the VRF instance, the fact it can do prefix lookups means it doesnt nee= d to leak every single /32 to the wide area and instead expose the aggregat= es.

Best Regards,




On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
Thomas, thx for the time summarising this and great sum= mary.




On 19/11/15 02:52, "BESS on behalf of Thomas Morin" <bess-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of thomas.morin@orange.com> wr= ote:

>I don't believe the discussion can be usefully summarized in terms = of
>"fatal flaws".
>Let me try to summarize my understanding of the thing discussed in this=
>thread.
>
>The solution in the draft has an impact on ASBR hardware due to the new=
>kind of stitching required (as well summarized by Diego). Whether this<= br> >is a big issue or not depends on the vendor. The solution in the draft,=
>for the NVE part, would be implementable in software quite easily. But,=
>because of the limitations in the widespread ToR chipsets for VXLAN (an= d
>their lack of support for MPLS/(GRE or UDP)), its multiple-UDP-port
>variant would be harder to implement in ToRs or at least not without a<= br> >performance hit (people who know that better, feel free to correct).
WH> some HW cannot do this at all, so lets dismiss this idea.

>The multiple-loopback approach has operational drawbacks, but whether o= r
>not these are killer issues may depend on the targeted scale (in terms<= br> >of number of NVEs) and may depend on other factors (operator practices,=
>ability to automate ASBR configs).

WH> ok now we have not discussed the constraints some HW vendors = have with respect to global VNIDs. To make this work all VNID/Labels need t= o be globally unique. Hmmmmm

>
>The alternative approach, put forward by Wim, consist in using existing=
>Option-C with a variant of the 3-label variant relying on an
>MPLS/MPLS/UDP-or-GRE encap (instead of the 3-label MPLS stack).=C2=A0 T= his
>approach would not necessitate new standardized procedures, would
>require less changes on ASBRs. However it is not supported today by
>vswitches or ToRs (unless the bottom MPLS label is passed to the VM, >which I think would restrict the application to a subset of the
>scenarios for which Option C is interesting). Having it supported in >vswitches may be a simple matter of writing the software, but ToR
>support seems to require evolution in chipsets ; whether such a support=
>is likely to appear hasn't been discussed in the thread.
>
>All in all, it seems there is no solution to cover an Option C scenario=
>with today's generation ToRs, and the question for tomorrow's g= eneration
>ToRs hasn't been really discussed.
>
>Based on the above, I would think the question boils down to whether it=
>is desirable to specify an Option C variant usable with vswitches as >they are today and possibly usable with a performance hit with today= 9;s
>ToRs chipsets, at the expense of a required evolution on ASBRs.=C2=A0 T= he
>alternative requiring some evolution on vswitches and waiting for futur= e
>ToRs chipsets.

WH> I vote for a an evolution of switches/TORs that have proper s= upport for this.
I hope some HW vendors of TOR chips shime in, but I am told the MPLS soluti= on is possible in the next generation chips they are working on.

The other options requires baggage forever on the ASBR elements that does n= ot bring value and it is better to avoid this and build an architecture whi= ch is future proof and more cost effective. My 2 cents
>
>-Thomas
>
>
>Zhuangshunwan=C2=A0 :
>>
>> Hi Diego,
>>
>> Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent].
>>
>> Vincent
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Diego Gar= cia del Rio
>> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2015=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8818= =E6=97=A514:25
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*bes= s@ietf.org
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-opti= onc
>>
>> Some comments from my side,
>> I think the draft makes quite a few assumptions on specific
>> implementation details that are way too general to be considered >> widely available.
>> Most of the TOR devices today already pay a double-pass penalty wh= en
>> doing routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the ne= west
>> generation can route into tunnels without additional passes. And a= re
>> definitively limited in being able to arbitrary select UDP ports o= n a
>> per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even limited at using more tha= n
>> one VNID per "service" of sorts.
>> [Vincent]: Yes, the new generation BCM chipset has already support= ed
>> VXLAN routing without additional passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN
>> encapsulation is more popular than MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better >> performance.
>> The IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assume, imply=
>> assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the ASBR-d = is
>> also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a technically "cl= ean"
>> solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As a side-note, most PE-g= rade
>> routers i've worked with were quite limited in terms of IP add= resses
>> used for tunnel termination and it wasn't that just a simple p= ool can
>> be used.
>> [Vincent]: I think the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d has = no
>> limitations. For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to
>> terminate multiple VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP I= P
>> addresses.
>> Wim's mentions on cases where the Application itself, hosted i= n a
>> datacenter, would be part of the option-C interconnect, was dismis= sed
>> without much discussion so far, while, if we look in detail at the=
>> type of users which will even consider a complex topology like mod= el-C
>> its most likely users and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs i= n
>> the WAN. Those type of operators will most likely be very interest= ed
>> in deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers= or
>> other VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the intercon= nect
>> would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the virtu= al
>> machine).
>> Also, the use of UDP ports at random would imply quite complex log= ic
>> on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its impossible, but since the >> received packet now not only has to be received on a random (thoug= h
>> locally chosen) UDP port and this information preserved in the
>> pipeline to be able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds q= uite
>> complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has alrea= dy
>> been implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And l= et's not
>> even bring into account what this would do to any DC middlebox tha= t
>> now has to look at vxlan over almost any random port. We have to g= o
>> back to the "is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte x" heuristic= s to try to
>> guess whether the packet is vxlan or just something entirely diffe= rent
>> running over IP.
>> [Vincent]: Using NP or multi-core CPU hardware technology, it can = be
>> implemented although deeper packet inspection is needed to perform= UDP
>> port and MPLS stitching.
>> In general I feel the proposed solution seems to be fitting of a >> specific use-case which is not really detailed in the draft and do= es
>> not describe=C2=A0 =C2=A0a solution that would "elegantly&quo= t; solve the issues at
>> hand. It just feels like we're using any available bit-space t= o stuff
>> data into places that do not necesarily belong.
>> Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual switches are not yet fully
>> available, and there can be some performance penalty on the TORs, = but
>> the solutions are much cleaner from a control and data plane point= of
>> view. Maybe I'm too utopic.
>> [Vincent]: I think pure VXLAN solution has its scenario, it's = general
>> rather than specific. We can't require all OVS/NVEs support VX= LAN +
>> MPLSoGRE at the same time.
>> Best regards,
>> Diego
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
>> Hi,
>> The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center
>> GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as >> traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common practise= on
>> ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing<= br> >> table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASB= R-d
>> needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only tr= ansport
>> layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the
>> scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only = for
>> MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive= in
>> data center,=C2=A0 the solution in this draft was proposed for the=
>> heterogeneous network interworking.
>> The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is=
>> required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound t= raffic
>> uses VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UD= P encap.
>> There are two solutions in this draft:
>> 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.
>> No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, on= ly
>> hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has
>> capability to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many I= P
>> addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on=
>> ASBR-d beforehand.
>> 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.
>> Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for
>> allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with >> solution 1 and 2.
>> In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed = at
>> OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hard= ware
>> changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For = TOR
>> switch, it normally can't realize this function.=C2=A0 This so= lution mainly
>> focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more
>> scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay >> network is the majority case.
>> Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envion= ment.
>> So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.
>> Thanks,
>> weiguo
>> ________________________________
>> From: BESS [bess-bounces@= ietf.org <mailto:bess-bounc= es@ietf.org>] on
>> behalf of John E Drake [jdra= ke@juniper.net <mailto:jdrake@= juniper.net>]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
>> To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin= @orange.com>; BESS
>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
>> Hi,
>> I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fata= l
>> flaws and I don=E2=80=99t support it.=C2=A0 I also agree with his = suggestion that
>> we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before sol= ving it.
>> Yours Irrespectively,
>> John
>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-b= ounces@ietf.org
>> <mailto:bess-bounces@i= etf.org>] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
>> To: EXT - thomas.morin@= orange.com <mailto:thomas= .morin@orange.com>; BESS
>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
>> =E2=80=94 Snip =E2=80=94
>> No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with=
>> existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destinatio= n
>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).
>> (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexibl= e
>> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)
>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For t= his to
>> work every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/rec= eive
>> port.
>> There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF >> defines solutions which should be implemented across the board
>> HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will=
>> impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be be= hind
>> this solution.
>> To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow.=
>> Given this, we better do it in the right way and guide the industr= y to
>> a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we w= ill
>> stick with these specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc= ).
>> - snip -
>> From: "thomas.mori= n@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin= @orange.com><mailto:th= omas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin= @orange.com>>" <thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin= @orange.com><mailto:th= omas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin= @orange.com>>>
>> Organization: Orange
>> Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:wi= m.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com><mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:wi= m.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>>>, BESS <bess@ietf.org
>> <mailto:bess@ietf.org>&= lt;mailto:bess@ietf.org <mailto:bess@ietf.org>>>
>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
>> Hi Wim, WG,
>> 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
>> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
>> Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe
>> requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the >> reasons explained.
>> TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal= , the
>> reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.=
>> WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain = VXLAN
>> data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always w= here
>> an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of= the
>> NVE/TOR elements.
>> My understanding is that the applications=C2=A0 are contexts where= overlays
>> are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be
>> interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons = to
>> want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs.
>> In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that woul= d
>> typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.
>> WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would = make
>> the solution flexible to support all of these not?
>> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
>> TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether y= ou prefer:
>> (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior >> specified in this draft)
>> or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to sup= port
>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE)
>> WH> b depends on the use case
>> I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case&q= uot;.
>> WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an applicatio= n
>> behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impac= t on
>> NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real >> driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based Fabr= ic.
>> Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, = I
>> don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss th= e proposal.
>> WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons expla= ined:
>> too much impact on the data-planes
>> I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in
>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToR= s
>> and vswitches.
>> Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet >> assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but thi= s
>> certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps = had
>> you something else in mind ?
>> WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in exi= sting
>> TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void.
>> No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with=
>> existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destinatio= n
>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).
>> (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexibl= e
>> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)
>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support?
>> WH> and depending on implementation you don=E2=80=99t need to c= hange any of
>> the TOR/vswitches.
>> Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to >> change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may = ?
>> WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this = is not
>> a valid discussion
>> See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need cha= nges
>> in vswitches.
>> Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how= to
>> implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc<= br> >> based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of
>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me = as
>> making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. >> WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles<= br> >> multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?
>> I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destinatio= n
>> port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft pr= oposes.
>> -Thomas
>> From: Thomas Morin <= thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin= @orange.com><mailto:th= omas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin= @orange.com>>>
>> Organization: Orange
>> Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:wi= m.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com><mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:wi= m.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>>>
>> Cc: "bess@ietf.org <m= ailto:bess@ietf.org><mailto:bess@ietf.org
>> <mailto:bess@ietf.org>&= gt;" <bess@ietf.org
>> <mailto:bess@ietf.org>&= lt;mailto:bess@ietf.org <mailto:bess@ietf.org>>>
>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
>> Hi Wim,
>> I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to
>> implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports=
>> (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware
>> implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing
>> multiple IPs would be operationally viable.
>> However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you >> propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) >> encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is suppor= ted
>> or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support thi= s
>> kind of encap,=C2=A0 and even software-based switches may not be r= eady to
>> support that today).
>> My take is that having different options to adapt to various
>> implementations constraints we may have would have value.
>> (+ one question below on VXLAN...)
>> -Thomas
>> 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
>> On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used = with
>> a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a >> sender based on an ARP request when needed ?
>> Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?
>> WH> yes
>> I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>BESS mailing list
>BESS@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR0301MB0695; H:BY2PR0301MB0696.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BY2PR0301MB0696329E44CA415F924C5DC0CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Nov 2015 18:50:39.3380 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR0301MB0695 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:51:13 -0000 --_000_BY2PR0301MB0696329E44CA415F924C5DC0CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Today many large enterprises connect to cloud providers using their existin= g MPLS VPN networks. This would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sit= es. Regards, Osama From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM To: Haoweiguo ; John E Drake ; He= nderickx, Wim (Wim) ; EXT - thomas.morin= @orange.com ; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc A concern I have with this draft is that it pre-supposes the network archit= ecture in terms of how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and W= AN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that?? Jim Uttaro From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's for= warding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C= . Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encap= sulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation = to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C m= ethod, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-= d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only fo= r MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in dat= a center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous ne= twork interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required= for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enc= ap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa= re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali= ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool = for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. = If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO= R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F= or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm= ally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure sof= tware based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data = center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@junipe= r.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a= nd I don't support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first figu= re out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc - Snip - No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work = every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol= utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some= SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat= a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th= is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w= hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these = specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b= ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reason= s for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-p= lane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an applica= tion behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elemen= ts. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are = present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with= VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t= he state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the sol= ution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE= /TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is voi= d. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for o= ption c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too mu= ch impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NV= E so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don't need to change any of the TOR= /vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a val= id discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y= ou suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP= ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software= -based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du= mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o= n an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_BY2PR0301MB0696329E44CA415F924C5DC0CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Today many large enterprises connect = to cloud providers using their existing MPLS VPN networks. This would mean = different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sites.

 

Regards,

Osama

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@= juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.co= m>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS = <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

A concern I have with this draf= t is that it pre-supposes the network architecture in terms of how DCs and = WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and WAN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that??  

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM
To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

H= i,

T= he problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's forw= arding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C.= Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then= perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain al= l VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport layer information needed = to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS= VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data cent= er,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous net= work interworking.

T= he advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required = for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enca= p, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

T= here are two solutions in this draft:

1= . Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.

N= o data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwar= e changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to realiz= e the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR= -d beforehand.

2= . Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.

C= ompared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. I= f UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2.

I= n this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TOR= and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. Fo= r OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function.  This s= olution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more = scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay network is= the majority case.

&= nbsp;

W= hether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment.=

&= nbsp;

S= o I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

&= nbsp;

From:<= /span> BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

 =

I think Wim has conclusively demonstr= ated that this draft has fatal flaws and I don’t support it.  I = also agree with his suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

 =

Yours Irrespectively,

 =

John

 =

From: BESS [= mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@or= ange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

— Snip —

 =

No, the spec as it is can be implemente= d in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose t= he VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports simultaneousl= y would they support? For this to work every tenant needs a different VXLAN= UDP destination port/receive port. 

There might be SW elements that could d= o some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be implemented acro= ss the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engi= nes that I cannot be behind this solution. 

 =

To make this work generically we will h= ave to make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right way an= d guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials = forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

 =

- snip -

 =

From: "t= homas.morin@orange.com" <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, BESS &= lt;bess@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

Thomas, we can discuss forever and some= one need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree = to for the reasons explained.=


TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea= sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

WH> my point is what is the real dri= ver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases I have seen= in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.<= span style=3D"color:black">

 =


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays= are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected= with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to red= uce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

 =

WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vs= witch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to support all of the= se not?



2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):


TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer= :
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

 =

WH> b depends on the use case


I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". =

WH> see my above comment. If the rea= l use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the= discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c in= terworking with an IP based Fabric.=


Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too= much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ?

 =

WH> see above. The draft right now a= lso requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/deba= te is void.


No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports simultaneousl= y would they support?<= /p>

 =

WH> and depending on implementation = you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.


Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

 =

WH> any proposal on the table requir= es changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion


See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches.


Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

 =

WH> I would disagree to this. Tell m= e which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?


I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas






 

 =

From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be read= y to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

On VXLAN= /NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC = address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

 =

WH> yes


I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?

 =

 =

 = 

__________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
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--_000_BY2PR0301MB0696329E44CA415F924C5DC0CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 10:56:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5811A1B344D for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:56:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.261 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.261 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.004, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oy9wMpoAcDNa for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A4AD1B344B for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049297.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049297.ppops.net-00191d01. 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It = is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amou= nt of internal information. At the end of the day network architecture/desi= gn whether internal/external to a provider is not mandated by the IETF or a= ny standards body. This draft seems to mix encap, interconnect etc.... If t= he encap "requires" a specific connectivity model than I am not sure how th= at exactly works. Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Today many large enterprises connect to cloud providers using their existin= g MPLS VPN networks. This would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sit= es. Regards, Osama From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM To: Haoweiguo >; John E D= rake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim)= >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >; BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc A concern I have with this draft is that it pre-supposes the network archit= ecture in terms of how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and W= AN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that?? Jim Uttaro From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's for= warding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C= . Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encap= sulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation = to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C m= ethod, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-= d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only fo= r MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in dat= a center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous ne= twork interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required= for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enc= ap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa= re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali= ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool = for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. = If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO= R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F= or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm= ally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure sof= tware based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data = center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@junipe= r.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a= nd I don't support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first figu= re out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc - Snip - No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work = every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol= utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some= SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat= a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th= is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w= hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these = specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b= ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reason= s for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-p= lane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an applica= tion behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elemen= ts. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are = present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with= VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t= he state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the sol= ution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE= /TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is voi= d. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for o= ption c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too mu= ch impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NV= E so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don't need to change any of the TOR= /vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a val= id discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y= ou suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP= ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software= -based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du= mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o= n an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4E2ECMISOUT7MSGUSRCD_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The assumption bein= g based on one’s view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP and a Cloud P= rovider connect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amo= unt of internal information. At the end of the day network architecture/des= ign whether internal/external to a provider is not mandated by the IETF or = any standards body. This draft seems to mix encap, interconnect etc…. If the encap “requires”= a specific connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly works.

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zi= a [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Today many large enterpri= ses connect to cloud providers using their existing MPLS VPN networks. This= would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sites.

 <= /p>

Regards,

Osama

 <= /p>

From: BESS [= mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@= huawei.com>; John E Drake <= jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

A concern I have wi= th this draft is that it pre-supposes the network architecture in terms of = how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and WAN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that??  

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM
To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Hi,

The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/A= SBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS V= PN option-C. Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then= perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain al= l VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport layer information needed = to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS= VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data cent= er,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous net= work interworking.

The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation = is required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic use= s VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

There are two solutions in this draft:

1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.

No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, = only hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capabili= ty to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR= -d beforehand.

2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.

Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for a= llocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 a= nd 2.

In this solution, both data plane modification changes are neede= d at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware= changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function.&nbs= p; This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it = has more scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay n= etwork is the majority case.

 

Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envi= onment.

 

So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.

Thanks,

weiguo

 

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org]= on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

 =

I think Wim has conclusiv= ely demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws and I don’t support = it.  I also agree with his suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

 =

Yours Irrespectively,

 =

John

 =

From: BESS [mailto:bes= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@or= ange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

— Snip —=

 =

No, the spec as it is can b= e implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows= to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports s= imultaneously would they support? For this to work every tenant needs a dif= ferent VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. 

There might be SW elements = that could do some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be impl= emented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engi= nes that I cannot be behind this solution. 

 =

To make this work generical= ly we will have to make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the = right way and guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials = forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

 =

- snip -

 =

From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, BESS &= lt;bess@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

Thomas, we can discuss fore= ver and someone need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I c= annot agree to for the reasons explained.


TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea= sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

WH> my point is what is = the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases= I have seen in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.<= span style=3D"color:black">

 =


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays= are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected= with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to red= uce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

 =

WH2> can it not be all c= ases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to suppor= t all of these not?

 

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim= (Wim):


TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer= :
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

 =

WH> b depends on the use= case


I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". =

WH> see my above comment= . If the real use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, = than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c in= terworking with an IP based Fabric.=


Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too= much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ?

 =

WH> see above. The draft= right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this dis= cussion/debate is void.


No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports s= imultaneously would they support?

 =

WH> and depending on imp= lementation you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.=


Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

 =

WH> any proposal on the = table requires changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion


See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches.


Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

 =

WH> I would disagree to = this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?


I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas




 

 =

From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be read= y to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with = a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

 =

WH> yes


I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?

 =

 =

 = 

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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR0301MB0693; H:BY2PR0301MB0696.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BY2PR0301MB0696A4928F3808509BEC3FA1CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Nov 2015 19:06:18.5836 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR0301MB0693 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:06:52 -0000 --_000_BY2PR0301MB0696A4928F3808509BEC3FA1CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CIL From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:56 AM To: Osama Zia ; UTTARO, JAMES ; Haowe= iguo ; John E Drake ; Henderickx,= Wim (Wim) ; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.c= om ; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc The assumption being based on one's view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP = and a Cloud Provider connect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It = is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amou= nt of internal information. [OZ] I would beg to disagree here. Customer traffic can be tunneled to a cu= stomer router in the cloud that should only expose customer routes. I had a= rgued previously in IETF that current practice of option A is not scalable. At the end of the day network architecture/design whether internal/external= to a provider is not mandated by the IETF or any standards body. This draf= t seems to mix encap, interconnect etc.... If the encap "requires" a specif= ic connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly works. Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Today many large enterprises connect to cloud providers using their existin= g MPLS VPN networks. This would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sit= es. Regards, Osama From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM To: Haoweiguo >; John E D= rake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim)= >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >; BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc A concern I have with this draft is that it pre-supposes the network archit= ecture in terms of how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and W= AN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that?? Jim Uttaro From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's for= warding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C= . Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encap= sulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation = to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C m= ethod, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-= d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only fo= r MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in dat= a center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous ne= twork interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required= for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enc= ap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa= re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali= ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool = for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. = If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO= R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F= or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm= ally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure sof= tware based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data = center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@junipe= r.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a= nd I don't support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first figu= re out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc - Snip - No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work = every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol= utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some= SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat= a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th= is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w= hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these = specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b= ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reason= s for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-p= lane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an applica= tion behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elemen= ts. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are = present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with= VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t= he state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the sol= ution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE= /TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is voi= d. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for o= ption c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too mu= ch impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NV= E so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don't need to change any of the TOR= /vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a val= id discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y= ou suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP= ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software= -based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du= mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o= n an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_BY2PR0301MB0696A4928F3808509BEC3FA1CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

CIL

 

From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@a= tt.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:56 AM
To: Osama Zia <osamaz@microsoft.com>; UTTARO, JAMES <ju1738= @att.com>; Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>; John E Drake <jdra= ke@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent= .com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

The assumption being based on o= ne’s view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP and a Cloud Provider conn= ect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amount= of internal information.

[OZ] I would beg to disagree here. Customer traf= fic can be tunneled to a customer router in the cloud that should only expo= se customer routes. I had argued previously in IETF that current practice of option A is not scalable. =

 

At the end of the day network a= rchitecture/design whether internal/external to a provider is not mandated = by the IETF or any standards body. This draft seems to mix encap, interconnect etc…. If the encap “requires&= #8221; a specific connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly wo= rks.

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Today many large enterprises connect = to cloud providers using their existing MPLS VPN networks. This would mean = different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sites.

 

Regards,

Osama

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@= huawei.com>; John E Drake <= jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

A concern I have with this draf= t is that it pre-supposes the network architecture in terms of how DCs and = WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and WAN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that??  

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM
To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

H= i,

T= he problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's forw= arding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C.= Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then= perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain al= l VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport layer information needed = to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS= VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data cent= er,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous net= work interworking.

T= he advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required = for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enca= p, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

T= here are two solutions in this draft:

1= . Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.

N= o data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwar= e changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to realiz= e the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR= -d beforehand.

2= . Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.

C= ompared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. I= f UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2.

I= n this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TOR= and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. Fo= r OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function.  This s= olution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more = scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay network is= the majority case.

&= nbsp;

W= hether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment.=

&= nbsp;

S= o I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

&= nbsp;

From:<= /span> BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

 =

I think Wim has conclusively demonstr= ated that this draft has fatal flaws and I don’t support it.  I = also agree with his suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

 =

Yours Irrespectively,

 =

John

 =

From: BESS [= mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@or= ange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

— Snip —

 =

No, the spec as it is can be implemente= d in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose t= he VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports simultaneousl= y would they support? For this to work every tenant needs a different VXLAN= UDP destination port/receive port. 

There might be SW elements that could d= o some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be implemented acro= ss the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engi= nes that I cannot be behind this solution. 

 =

To make this work generically we will h= ave to make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right way an= d guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials = forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

 =

- snip -

 =

From: "t= homas.morin@orange.com" <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, BESS &= lt;bess@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

Thomas, we can discuss forever and some= one need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree = to for the reasons explained.=


TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea= sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

WH> my point is what is the real dri= ver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases I have seen= in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.<= span style=3D"color:black">

 =


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays= are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected= with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to red= uce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

 =

WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vs= witch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to support all of the= se not?

 

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):


TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer= :
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

 =

WH> b depends on the use case


I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". =

WH> see my above comment. If the rea= l use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the= discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c in= terworking with an IP based Fabric.=


Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too= much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ?

 =

WH> see above. The draft right now a= lso requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/deba= te is void.


No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports simultaneousl= y would they support?<= /p>

 =

WH> and depending on implementation = you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.


Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

 =

WH> any proposal on the table requir= es changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion


See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches.


Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

 =

WH> I would disagree to this. Tell m= e which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?


I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas

 

 

 =

From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be read= y to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

On VXLAN= /NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC = address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

 =

WH> yes


I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?

 =

 =

 = 

__________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
____
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent c=
ontenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies san=
s autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signal=
er
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que le=
s pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteratio=
n,
France Telecom - Orange decline toute resp=
onsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci
 
This message and its attachments may conta=
in confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or co=
pied without authorization.
If you have received this email in error, =
please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<=
/o:p>
As emails may be altered, France Telecom -=
 Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsif=
ied.
Thank you.
--_000_BY2PR0301MB0696A4928F3808509BEC3FA1CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 11:16:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F0C1B2EB7 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:16:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.261 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.261 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.004, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C0_hJ6BPEYrx for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 297D21A6EE2 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0053301.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id tAJJDndG024977; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:16:41 -0500 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 1y5ywfb61y-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:16:40 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJJGcPR017981; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:16:39 -0500 Received: from mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.239]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJJGUGk017797 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:16:35 -0500 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.150]) by mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:16:17 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRCD.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.4.86]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:16:16 -0500 From: "UTTARO, JAMES" To: Osama Zia , "UTTARO, JAMES" , Haoweiguo , John E Drake , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRdWAgAIKa4CAAIk6AIAAEQyAgACgdYCAAFnwwIACKpaA//+saUCAAFf2AP//roVA Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:16:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> <8929_1447753042_564AF552_8929_4548_1_564AF551.7010205@orange.com> <34D2D141-D065-463F-A181-B037E26C544E@alcatel-lucent.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.112.179] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4E319MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2015-11-19_12:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1507310000 definitions=main-1511190317 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:16:57 -0000 --_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4E319MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Comments In-Line.. Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:06 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc CIL From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:56 AM To: Osama Zia >; UTTARO, = JAMES >; Haoweiguo >; John E Drake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.c= om >; BESS > Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc The assumption being based on one's view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP = and a Cloud Provider connect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It = is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amou= nt of internal information. [OZ] I would beg to disagree here. Customer traffic can be tunneled to a cu= stomer router in the cloud that should only expose customer routes. I had a= rgued previously in IETF that current practice of option A is not scalable. [Jim U>] So, do you mean a CSC model where the NHs are the customer CEs, if= so, then that is not Classical Option C where PE LBs are exchanged as the = NHs for the customers path/routes. At the end of the day network architecture/design whether internal/external= to a provider is not mandated by the IETF or any standards body. This draf= t seems to mix encap, interconnect etc.... If the encap "requires" a specif= ic connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly works. Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Today many large enterprises connect to cloud providers using their existin= g MPLS VPN networks. This would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sit= es. Regards, Osama From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM To: Haoweiguo >; John E D= rake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim)= >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >; BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc A concern I have with this draft is that it pre-supposes the network archit= ecture in terms of how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and W= AN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that?? Jim Uttaro From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's for= warding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C= . Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encap= sulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation = to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C m= ethod, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-= d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only fo= r MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in dat= a center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous ne= twork interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required= for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enc= ap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa= re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali= ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool = for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. = If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO= R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F= or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm= ally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure sof= tware based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data = center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@junipe= r.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a= nd I don't support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first figu= re out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc - Snip - No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work = every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol= utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some= SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat= a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th= is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w= hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these = specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b= ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reason= s for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-p= lane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an applica= tion behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elemen= ts. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are = present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with= VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t= he state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the sol= ution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE= /TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is voi= d. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for o= ption c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too mu= ch impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NV= E so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don't need to change any of the TOR= /vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a val= id discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y= ou suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP= ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software= -based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du= mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o= n an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4E319MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Comments In-Line..<= o:p>

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zi= a [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:06 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

CIL

 <= /p>

From: UTTARO= , JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:56 AM
To: Osama Zia <osamaz@mic= rosoft.com>; UTTARO, JAMES <ju1= 738@att.com>; Haoweiguo <= haoweiguo@huawei.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <= thomas.morin@orange.com>;= BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

The assumption bein= g based on one’s view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP and a Cloud P= rovider connect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amo= unt of internal information.

[OZ] I would beg to disagree here. C= ustomer traffic can be tunneled to a customer router in the cloud that shou= ld only expose customer routes. I had argued previously in IETF that current practice of option A is not scalable.

[Jim U>] So, do = you mean a CSC model where the NHs are the customer CEs, if so, then that i= s not Classical Option C where PE LBs are exchanged as the NHs for the customers path/routes.

 

At the end of the d= ay network architecture/design whether internal/external to a provider is n= ot mandated by the IETF or any standards body. This draft seems to mix encap, interconnect etc…. If the encap “requires&= #8221; a specific connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly wo= rks.

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zi= a [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Today many large enterpri= ses connect to cloud providers using their existing MPLS VPN networks. This= would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sites.

 <= /p>

Regards,

Osama

 <= /p>

From: BESS [= mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@= huawei.com>; John E Drake <= jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

A concern I have wi= th this draft is that it pre-supposes the network architecture in terms of = how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and WAN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that??  

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM
To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Hi,

The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/A= SBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS V= PN option-C. Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then= perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain al= l VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport layer information needed = to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS= VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data cent= er,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous net= work interworking.

The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation = is required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic use= s VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

There are two solutions in this draft:

1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.

No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, = only hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capabili= ty to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR= -d beforehand.

2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.

Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for a= llocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 a= nd 2.

In this solution, both data plane modification changes are neede= d at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware= changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function.&nbs= p; This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it = has more scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay n= etwork is the majority case.

 

Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envi= onment.

 

So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.

Thanks,

weiguo

 

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org]= on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

 =

I think Wim has conclusiv= ely demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws and I don’t support = it.  I also agree with his suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

 =

Yours Irrespectively,

 =

John

 =

From: BESS [mailto:bes= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@or= ange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

— Snip —=

 =

No, the spec as it is can b= e implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows= to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports s= imultaneously would they support? For this to work every tenant needs a dif= ferent VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. 

There might be SW elements = that could do some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be impl= emented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engi= nes that I cannot be behind this solution. 

 =

To make this work generical= ly we will have to make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the = right way and guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials = forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

 =

- snip -

 =

From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, BESS &= lt;bess@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

Thomas, we can discuss fore= ver and someone need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I c= annot agree to for the reasons explained.


TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea= sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

WH> my point is what is = the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases= I have seen in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.<= span style=3D"color:black">

 =


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays= are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected= with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to red= uce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

 =

WH2> can it not be all c= ases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to suppor= t all of these not?

 

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim= (Wim):


TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer= :
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

 =

WH> b depends on the use= case


I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". =

WH> see my above comment= . If the real use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, = than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c in= terworking with an IP based Fabric.=


Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too= much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ?

 =

WH> see above. The draft= right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this dis= cussion/debate is void.


No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports s= imultaneously would they support?

 =

WH> and depending on imp= lementation you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.=


Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

 =

WH> any proposal on the = table requires changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion


See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches.


Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

 =

WH> I would disagree to = this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?


I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas

 

 

 =

From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be read= y to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with = a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

 =

WH> yes


I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?

 =

 =

 = 

__________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
____
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent c=
ontenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies san=
s autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signal=
er
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que le=
s pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteratio=
n,
France Telecom - Orange decline toute resp=
onsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci
 
This message and its attachments may conta=
in confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or co=
pied without authorization.
If you have received this email in error, =
please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<=
/o:p>
As emails may be altered, France Telecom -=
 Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsif=
ied.
Thank you.
--_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4E319MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 11:39:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D2E91B349B for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:38:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.791 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.791 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7_aeOBwsO5a7 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0751.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:751]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84F3C1B3499 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR0301MB0693; H:BY2PR0301MB0696.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BY2PR0301MB06964BB2147ED72A037977D0CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Nov 2015 19:38:13.5887 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR0301MB0693 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:38:43 -0000 --_000_BY2PR0301MB06964BB2147ED72A037977D0CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CIL From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:16 AM To: Osama Zia ; UTTARO, JAMES ; Haowe= iguo ; John E Drake ; Henderickx,= Wim (Wim) ; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.c= om ; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Comments In-Line.. Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:06 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc CIL From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:56 AM To: Osama Zia >; UTTARO, = JAMES >; Haoweiguo >; John E Drake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.c= om >; BESS > Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc The assumption being based on one's view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP = and a Cloud Provider connect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It = is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amou= nt of internal information. [OZ] I would beg to disagree here. Customer traffic can be tunneled to a cu= stomer router in the cloud that should only expose customer routes. I had a= rgued previously in IETF that current practice of option A is not scalable. [Jim U>] So, do you mean a CSC model where the NHs are the customer CEs, if= so, then that is not Classical Option C where PE LBs are exchanged as the = NHs for the customers path/routes. [OZ] Sorry for the confusion. My comment was not specific to the draft. I w= as responding to your comment "Option C as the exposes a tremendous amount= of internal information" At the end of the day network architecture/design whether internal/external= to a provider is not mandated by the IETF or any standards body. This draf= t seems to mix encap, interconnect etc.... If the encap "requires" a specif= ic connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly works. Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Today many large enterprises connect to cloud providers using their existin= g MPLS VPN networks. This would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sit= es. Regards, Osama From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM To: Haoweiguo >; John E D= rake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim)= >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >; BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc A concern I have with this draft is that it pre-supposes the network archit= ecture in terms of how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and W= AN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that?? Jim Uttaro From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's for= warding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C= . Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encap= sulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation = to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C m= ethod, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-= d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only fo= r MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in dat= a center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous ne= twork interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required= for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enc= ap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa= re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali= ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool = for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. = If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO= R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F= or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm= ally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure sof= tware based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data = center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@junipe= r.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a= nd I don't support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first figu= re out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc - Snip - No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work = every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol= utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some= SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat= a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th= is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w= hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these = specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b= ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reason= s for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-p= lane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an applica= tion behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elemen= ts. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are = present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with= VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t= he state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the sol= ution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE= /TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is voi= d. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for o= ption c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too mu= ch impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NV= E so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don't need to change any of the TOR= /vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a val= id discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y= ou suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP= ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software= -based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du= mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o= n an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_BY2PR0301MB06964BB2147ED72A037977D0CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

CIL

 

From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@a= tt.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:16 AM
To: Osama Zia <osamaz@microsoft.com>; UTTARO, JAMES <ju1738= @att.com>; Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>; John E Drake <jdra= ke@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent= .com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Comments In-Line..

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:06 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

CIL

 

From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:56 AM
To: Osama Zia <osamaz@mic= rosoft.com>; UTTARO, JAMES <ju1= 738@att.com>; Haoweiguo <= haoweiguo@huawei.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <= thomas.morin@orange.com>;= BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

The assumption being based on o= ne’s view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP and a Cloud Provider conn= ect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amount= of internal information.

[OZ] I would beg to disagree here. Customer traf= fic can be tunneled to a customer router in the cloud that should only expo= se customer routes. I had argued previously in IETF that current practice of option A is not scalable. =

[Jim U>] So, do you mean a C= SC model where the NHs are the customer CEs, if so, then that is not Classi= cal Option C where PE LBs are exchanged as the NHs for the customers path/routes.

[OZ] Sorry for the confusion. My comment was not= specific to the draft. I was responding to your comment  “Option C as the exposes a= tremendous amount of internal information”

 

At the end of the day network a= rchitecture/design whether internal/external to a provider is not mandated = by the IETF or any standards body. This draft seems to mix encap, interconnect etc…. If the encap “requires&= #8221; a specific connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly wo= rks.

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Today many large enterprises connect = to cloud providers using their existing MPLS VPN networks. This would mean = different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sites.

 

Regards,

Osama

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@= huawei.com>; John E Drake <= jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

A concern I have with this draf= t is that it pre-supposes the network architecture in terms of how DCs and = WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and WAN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that??  

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM
To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

H= i,

T= he problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's forw= arding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C.= Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then= perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain al= l VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport layer information needed = to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS= VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data cent= er,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous net= work interworking.

T= he advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required = for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enca= p, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

T= here are two solutions in this draft:

1= . Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.

N= o data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwar= e changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to realiz= e the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR= -d beforehand.

2= . Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.

C= ompared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. I= f UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2.

I= n this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TOR= and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. Fo= r OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function.  This s= olution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more = scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay network is= the majority case.

&= nbsp;

W= hether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment.=

&= nbsp;

S= o I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

&= nbsp;

From:<= /span> BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

 =

I think Wim has conclusively demonstr= ated that this draft has fatal flaws and I don’t support it.  I = also agree with his suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

 =

Yours Irrespectively,

 =

John

 =

From: BESS [= mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@or= ange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

— Snip —

 =

No, the spec as it is can be implemente= d in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose t= he VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports simultaneousl= y would they support? For this to work every tenant needs a different VXLAN= UDP destination port/receive port. 

There might be SW elements that could d= o some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be implemented acro= ss the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engi= nes that I cannot be behind this solution. 

 =

To make this work generically we will h= ave to make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right way an= d guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials = forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

 =

- snip -

 =

From: "t= homas.morin@orange.com" <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, BESS &= lt;bess@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

Thomas, we can discuss forever and some= one need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree = to for the reasons explained.=


TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea= sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

WH> my point is what is the real dri= ver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases I have seen= in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.<= span style=3D"color:black">

 =


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays= are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected= with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to red= uce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

 =

WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vs= witch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to support all of the= se not?

 

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):


TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer= :
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

 =

WH> b depends on the use case


I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". =

WH> see my above comment. If the rea= l use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the= discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c in= terworking with an IP based Fabric.=


Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too= much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ?

 =

WH> see above. The draft right now a= lso requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/deba= te is void.


No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports simultaneousl= y would they support?<= /p>

 =

WH> and depending on implementation = you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.


Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

 =

WH> any proposal on the table requir= es changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion


See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches.


Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

 =

WH> I would disagree to this. Tell m= e which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?


I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas

 

 

 =

From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be read= y to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

On VXLAN= /NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a dummy MAC = address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

 =

WH> yes


I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?

 =

 =

 = 

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--_000_BY2PR0301MB06964BB2147ED72A037977D0CA1B0BY2PR0301MB0696_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 12:14:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A92AB1A9074 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:14:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.261 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.261 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.004, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hnhhJ2DHhQ1e for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11D231B34D4 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0053301.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id tAJK49JD034609; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:13:42 -0500 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 1y5ywfbrxb-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:13:41 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJKDd4V031627; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:13:40 -0500 Received: from mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.241]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJKDRmN031423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:13:32 -0500 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.146]) by mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 20:13:07 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRCD.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.4.86]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAB.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.146]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:13:07 -0500 From: "UTTARO, JAMES" To: Osama Zia , "UTTARO, JAMES" , Haoweiguo , John E Drake , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRHVckJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6eRdWAgAIKa4CAAIk6AIAAEQyAgACgdYCAAFnwwIACKpaA//+saUCAAFf2AP//roVAgABaZoD//7SJkA== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 20:13:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1214F6D7-7E00-4C95-82C4-349393828A92@alcatel-lucent.com> <11888_1447341897_5644AF49_11888_5397_1_5644AF48.6000407@orange.com> <31144DC0-E53C-4890-AD51-29A49C45F6DB@alcatel-lucent.com> <26952_1447346782_5644C25E_26952_9119_1_5644C25D.8070806@orange.com> <94504E5E-B0D8-41DC-8967-E860E46F4C92@alcatel-lucent.com> <5645A614.4010806@orange.com> <28696_1447432615_564611A7_28696_1036_1_564611A6.2010509@orange.com> <61AE87C2-D215-4135-94A3-6C648FAA614E@alcatel-lucent.com> <5649F84E.8050605@orange.com> <09C99D22-AE4B-4BF1-8010-18CD93CF5478@alcatel-lucent.com> <8929_1447753042_564AF552_8929_4548_1_564AF551.7010205@orange.com> <34D2D141-D065-463F-A181-B037E26C544E@alcatel-lucent.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.112.179] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4E345MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2015-11-19_13:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1507310000 definitions=main-1511190332 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 20:14:20 -0000 --_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4E345MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMO an Option C model not CSC between to different administrative authoriti= es where internal reachability state is exchanged is a non-starter. But co= ming back to this draft it seems that tying the encap and the network archi= tecture is a requirement or am I getting that wrong. If not, how should I i= nterpret this draft? Should it be if I do Option C as I must have different= AS domains between my internal DCs and WAN and my encap models are differe= nt in the WAN and DC, and I am using specific encaps in different places et= cc... it would be in my solution space?? Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:38 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc CIL From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:16 AM To: Osama Zia >; UTTARO, = JAMES >; Haoweiguo >; John E Drake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.c= om >; BESS > Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Comments In-Line.. Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:06 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc CIL From: UTTARO, JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:56 AM To: Osama Zia >; UTTARO, = JAMES >; Haoweiguo >; John E Drake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.c= om >; BESS > Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc The assumption being based on one's view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP = and a Cloud Provider connect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It = is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amou= nt of internal information. [OZ] I would beg to disagree here. Customer traffic can be tunneled to a cu= stomer router in the cloud that should only expose customer routes. I had a= rgued previously in IETF that current practice of option A is not scalable. [Jim U>] So, do you mean a CSC model where the NHs are the customer CEs, if= so, then that is not Classical Option C where PE LBs are exchanged as the = NHs for the customers path/routes. [OZ] Sorry for the confusion. My comment was not specific to the draft. I w= as responding to your comment "Option C as the exposes a tremendous amount= of internal information" At the end of the day network architecture/design whether internal/external= to a provider is not mandated by the IETF or any standards body. This draf= t seems to mix encap, interconnect etc.... If the encap "requires" a specif= ic connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly works. Jim Uttaro From: Osama Zia [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - th= omas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Today many large enterprises connect to cloud providers using their existin= g MPLS VPN networks. This would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sit= es. Regards, Osama From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM To: Haoweiguo >; John E D= rake >; Henderickx, Wim (Wim)= >; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >; BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc A concern I have with this draft is that it pre-supposes the network archit= ecture in terms of how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and W= AN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that?? Jim Uttaro From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/ASBR-d's for= warding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS VPN option-C= . Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encap= sulation, look up local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation = to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C m= ethod, only transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-= d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only fo= r MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in dat= a center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous ne= twork interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required= for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN enc= ap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardwa= re changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to reali= ze the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool = for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. = If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at OVS/TO= R and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware changes. F= or OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it norm= ally can't realize this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure sof= tware based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data = center, software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@junipe= r.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws a= nd I don't support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first figu= re out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim= ) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc - Snip - No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to work = every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines sol= utions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some= SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/dat= a-plane engines that I cannot be behind this solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. Given th= is, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to a solution w= hich does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these = specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" > Organization: Orange Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >, BESS > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, b= ut the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the reason= s for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-p= lane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where an applica= tion behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elemen= ts. My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays are = present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected with= VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to reduce t= he state on ASBRs. In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the sol= ution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft) or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE= /TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is voi= d. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for o= ption c interworking with an IP based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too mu= ch impact on the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NV= E so for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and depending on implementation you don't need to change any of the TOR= /vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not a val= id discussion See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution y= ou suggest harder to implement. WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP= ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin = > Organization: Orange Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even software= -based switches may not be ready to support that today). My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value. (+ one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with a du= mmy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based o= n an ARP request when needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F0CD4E345MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IMO an Option C mod= el not CSC between to different administrative authorities where internal r= eachability state is exchanged is a non-starter.  But coming back to this draft it seems that tying the encap and the network architect= ure is a requirement or am I getting that wrong. If not, how should I inter= pret this draft? Should it be if I do Option C as I must have different AS = domains between my internal DCs and WAN and my encap models are different in the WAN and DC, and I am usin= g specific encaps in different places etcc… it would be in my solutio= n space??

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zi= a [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:38 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

CIL

 <= /p>

From: UTTARO= , JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:16 AM
To: Osama Zia <osamaz@mic= rosoft.com>; UTTARO, JAMES <ju1= 738@att.com>; Haoweiguo <= haoweiguo@huawei.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <= thomas.morin@orange.com>;= BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Comments In-Line..<= o:p>

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zi= a [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:06 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

CIL

 <= /p>

From: UTTARO= , JAMES [mailto:ju1738@att.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:56 AM
To: Osama Zia <osamaz@mic= rosoft.com>; UTTARO, JAMES <ju1= 738@att.com>; Haoweiguo <= haoweiguo@huawei.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <= thomas.morin@orange.com>;= BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

The assumption bein= g based on one’s view of what a DC is ;) Yes when an SP and a Cloud P= rovider connect an inter-AS model of some form is needed.. It is doubtful that it would ever be Option C as the exposes a tremendous amo= unt of internal information.

[OZ] I would beg to disagree here. C= ustomer traffic can be tunneled to a customer router in the cloud that shou= ld only expose customer routes. I had argued previously in IETF that current practice of option A is not scalable.

[Jim U>] So, do = you mean a CSC model where the NHs are the customer CEs, if so, then that i= s not Classical Option C where PE LBs are exchanged as the NHs for the customers path/routes.

[OZ] Sorry for the confusion. My com= ment was not specific to the draft. I was responding to your comment  “Option C as the exposes a tremendou= s amount of internal information”

 

At the end of the d= ay network architecture/design whether internal/external to a provider is n= ot mandated by the IETF or any standards body. This draft seems to mix encap, interconnect etc…. If the encap “requires&= #8221; a specific connectivity model than I am not sure how that exactly wo= rks.

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Osama Zi= a [mailto:osamaz@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 1:51 PM
To: UTTARO, JAMES; Haoweiguo; John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); E= XT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: RE: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Today many large enterpri= ses connect to cloud providers using their existing MPLS VPN networks. This= would mean different AS Numbers at WAN and DC sites.

 <= /p>

Regards,

Osama

 <= /p>

From: BESS [= mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of UTTARO, JAMES
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:46 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@= huawei.com>; John E Drake <= jdrake@juniper.net>; Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

A concern I have wi= th this draft is that it pre-supposes the network architecture in terms of = how DCs and WAN are connected. It assumes that DCs and WAN networks are in different AS domains. Why is that??  

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:24 PM
To: John E Drake; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc=

 

Hi,

The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center GW/A= SBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as traditional MPLS V= PN option-C. Currently, the most common practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing table, and then= perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain al= l VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport layer information needed = to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS= VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data cent= er,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous net= work interworking.

The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation = is required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic use= s VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap.

There are two solutions in this draft:

1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.

No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, = only hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capabili= ty to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR= -d beforehand.

2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.

Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for a= llocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 a= nd 2.

In this solution, both data plane modification changes are neede= d at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware= changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function.&nbs= p; This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, it = has more scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay n= etwork is the majority case.

 

Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envi= onment.

 

So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.

Thanks,

weiguo

 

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org]= on behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi,

 =

I think Wim has conclusiv= ely demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws and I don’t support = it.  I also agree with his suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it.

 =

Yours Irrespectively,

 =

John

 =

From: BESS [mailto:bes= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
To: EXT - thomas.morin@or= ange.com; BESS
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

— Snip —=

 =

No, the spec as it is can b= e implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows= to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports s= imultaneously would they support? For this to work every tenant needs a dif= ferent VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. 

There might be SW elements = that could do some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be impl= emented across the board HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engi= nes that I cannot be behind this solution. 

 =

To make this work generical= ly we will have to make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the = right way and guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials = forever with all consequences (bugs, etc).

 =

- snip -

 =

From: "thomas.morin@orange.com" <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, BESS &= lt;bess@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim, WG,

2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>


2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

Thomas, we can discuss fore= ver and someone need to describe requirements, but the current proposal I c= annot agree to for the reasons explained.


TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the rea= sons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.

WH> my point is what is = the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases= I have seen in this txt is always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements.<= span style=3D"color:black">

 =


My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where overlays= are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be interconnected= with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to want Option C to red= uce the state on ASBRs.

In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typical= ly handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.

 =

WH2> can it not be all c= ases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to suppor= t all of these not?

 

2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim= (Wim):


TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer= :
(a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified = in this draft)
or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support MPLS= /MPLS/(UDP or GRE)

 =

WH> b depends on the use= case


I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". =

WH> see my above comment= . If the real use case is an application behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, = than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real driver/requirement for option c in= terworking with an IP based Fabric.=


Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I don't t= hink one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal.

WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: too= much impact on the data-planes


I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP o= r GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches.
Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming a= n L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does no= t match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something else in = mind ?

 =

WH> see above. The draft= right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this dis= cussion/debate is void.


No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing= vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for= the linux kernel stack).

(ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible enough = VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)

 =

WH> and how many ports s= imultaneously would they support?

 =

WH> and depending on imp= lementation you don’t need to change any of the TOR/vswitches.=


Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to change any= of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ?

 =

WH> any proposal on the = table requires changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion


See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in v= switches.


Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to imple= ment the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on curre= nt vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) suppo= rt in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement.

 =

WH> I would disagree to = this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?


I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination port fo= r VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes.

-Thomas

 

 

 =

From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: "bess@ie= tf.org" <bes= s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

 =

Hi Wim,

I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations= that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to a= chieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), or to con= text where managing multiple IPs would be operationally viable.  

However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you propose [re= lying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the = issue of whether the encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical = ToR chipset possibly may not support this kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be read= y to support that today).

My take is that having different options to adapt to various implementation= s constraints we may have would have value.

(+ one question below on VXLAN...)

-Thomas


2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):<= /o:p>

On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with = a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ?


Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?

 =

WH> yes


I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?

 =

 =

 = 

__________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
____
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent c=
ontenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies san=
s autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signal=
er
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que le=
s pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteratio=
n,
France Telecom - Orange decline toute resp=
onsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci
 
This message and its attachments may conta=
in confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or co=
pied without authorization.
If you have received this email in error, =
please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<=
/o:p>
As emails may be altered, France Telecom -=
 Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsif=
ied.
Thank you.
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AF60C1A8847 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEJ16147; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 06:37:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 06:37:42 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:37:36 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Thomas Morin , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRIcnnJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6jLgEB//+++gCAAYs4QA== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 06:37:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com>, 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Hi Diego,

Thanks for your comments. Pls see inli= ne with  [weiguo3].

Thanks,

weiguo

From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org] on beha= lf of Diego Garcia del Rio [diego@nuagenetworks.net]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 2:00
To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
Cc: Thomas Morin; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc

Hi Weiguo,

If we're really talking about a public cloud operator where MOST of th= e endpoints would be software, interconnecting DC and WAN environments seem= s pretty blunt to be honest. You're going to be leaking every single /32 IP= address of the virtual machines into the wide area and most carriers tend to avoid that kind of thing sinc= e its quite disrutptive in terms of scalability.
[weiguo3]: I just give an example for pure software based overlay netw= ork, i don't mean the option-c solution should be used in public cloud envi= onment or public cloud is the focus of the option-C. My meaning is that in = pure software envionment, currently OVS can be modified for the UDP-port-variant VXLAN encapsulation. For hard= ware TOR, it relies on next generation chipset.

 
Furthermore, wim's proposal does NOT imply changes on the east-west tr= affic patterns. Those would remain on vxlan or whatever new encapsulation w= e manage to come up with at NVO3.
[weiguo3]: Yes, i understood wim's proposal that is east-west bound en= cap uses VXLAN and north-south bound encap uses MPLSoGRE. However, some DC = operators don't use this pattern, they use VXLAN encapsulation for both nor= th-south bound and east-west bound traffic.

 
Model C interconnect presuposes a high trust relationship between both= parties, and if the cloud and WAN are operated by the same company, that i= s valid.
[weiguo3]: Yes, i agree.
Finally, as wim also mentions, the issue of the globally allocated VNI= Ds is quite an issue. This affects the existing TORs since now all the WAN = PEs would have to organize themselves not to ever allocate overlapping labe= ls (then converted to VNIDs) since the DC gear today cannot handle using the same VNID on different "ser= vices". 
[weiguo3]: In data center, normally globally unique VN ID mechanism is= used for management simplicity. In the option-c solution, similarly, MPLS = VPN Label and VN ID also is recommended to be globally managed through SDN = solution.

Again, you dismiss the top of racks, but I don't think we can propose = a standard that just simply ignores a good chunk of the DC space.
[weiguo3]: Currently if the UDP-port-variant VXLAN encap solution is d= eployed, the top of racks need to be dismissed, the hardware capability sta= tus quo on the TOR switch  is limited. In the future, if there ar= e some chipsets support the encapsulation, it can also be used on TORs. In summay, TOR dismissing is only for current= deployment, that's not for the future.

And at the same time, all the DC edge routers where we propose to impl= ement these complex mapping have larger and larger scaling tables with rout= e capacities in the order of millions of prefixes these days. And while mod= el A has the burden of provisioning the DC edge with the VRF instance, the fact it can do prefix lookups means= it doesnt need to leak every single /32 to the wide area and instead expos= e the aggregates.
[weiguo3]: This is the common issue for Option-C. Just as you said, it= is very suitable for a high trustworthy and security envionment, such as c= loud data center and WAN PE belongs to same company.

 
Best Regards,




On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Henderickx, Wim= (Wim) <= wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
Thomas, thx for the time summarising this and great summary.




On 19/11/15 02:52, "BESS on behalf of Thomas Morin" <bess-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of thomas.morin@o= range.com> wrote:

>I don't believe the discussion can be usefully summarized in terms of >"fatal flaws".
>Let me try to summarize my understanding of the thing discussed in this=
>thread.
>
>The solution in the draft has an impact on ASBR hardware due to the new=
>kind of stitching required (as well summarized by Diego). Whether this<= br> >is a big issue or not depends on the vendor. The solution in the draft,=
>for the NVE part, would be implementable in software quite easily. But,=
>because of the limitations in the widespread ToR chipsets for VXLAN (an= d
>their lack of support for MPLS/(GRE or UDP)), its multiple-UDP-port
>variant would be harder to implement in ToRs or at least not without a<= br> >performance hit (people who know that better, feel free to correct).
WH> some HW cannot do this at all, so lets dismiss this idea.

>The multiple-loopback approach has operational drawbacks, but whether o= r
>not these are killer issues may depend on the targeted scale (in terms<= br> >of number of NVEs) and may depend on other factors (operator practices,=
>ability to automate ASBR configs).

WH> ok now we have not discussed the constraints some HW vendors = have with respect to global VNIDs. To make this work all VNID/Labels need t= o be globally unique. Hmmmmm

>
>The alternative approach, put forward by Wim, consist in using existing=
>Option-C with a variant of the 3-label variant relying on an
>MPLS/MPLS/UDP-or-GRE encap (instead of the 3-label MPLS stack).  T= his
>approach would not necessitate new standardized procedures, would
>require less changes on ASBRs. However it is not supported today by
>vswitches or ToRs (unless the bottom MPLS label is passed to the VM, >which I think would restrict the application to a subset of the
>scenarios for which Option C is interesting). Having it supported in >vswitches may be a simple matter of writing the software, but ToR
>support seems to require evolution in chipsets ; whether such a support=
>is likely to appear hasn't been discussed in the thread.
>
>All in all, it seems there is no solution to cover an Option C scenario=
>with today's generation ToRs, and the question for tomorrow's generatio= n
>ToRs hasn't been really discussed.
>
>Based on the above, I would think the question boils down to whether it=
>is desirable to specify an Option C variant usable with vswitches as >they are today and possibly usable with a performance hit with today's<= br> >ToRs chipsets, at the expense of a required evolution on ASBRs.  T= he
>alternative requiring some evolution on vswitches and waiting for futur= e
>ToRs chipsets.

WH> I vote for a an evolution of switches/TORs that have proper s= upport for this.
I hope some HW vendors of TOR chips shime in, but I am told the MPLS soluti= on is possible in the next generation chips they are working on.

The other options requires baggage forever on the ASBR elements that does n= ot bring value and it is better to avoid this and build an architecture whi= ch is future proof and more cost effective. My 2 cents
>
>-Thomas
>
>
>Zhuangshunwan  :
>>
>> Hi Diego,
>>
>> Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent].
>>
>> Vincent
>>
>> *=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *=B4=FA=B1=ED *Diego = Garcia del Rio
>> *=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:*2015=C4=EA11=D4=C218=C8=D514:25
>> *=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB:*bess@ietf.org
>> *=D6=F7=CC=E2:*Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>
>> Some comments from my side,
>> I think the draft makes quite a few assumptions on specific
>> implementation details that are way too general to be considered >> widely available.
>> Most of the TOR devices today already pay a double-pass penalty wh= en
>> doing routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the ne= west
>> generation can route into tunnels without additional passes. And a= re
>> definitively limited in being able to arbitrary select UDP ports o= n a
>> per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even limited at using more tha= n
>> one VNID per "service" of sorts.
>> [Vincent]: Yes, the new generation BCM chipset has already support= ed
>> VXLAN routing without additional passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN
>> encapsulation is more popular than MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better >> performance.
>> The IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assume, imply=
>> assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the ASBR-d = is
>> also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a technically "cl= ean"
>> solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As a side-note, most PE-g= rade
>> routers i've worked with were quite limited in terms of IP address= es
>> used for tunnel termination and it wasn't that just a simple pool = can
>> be used.
>> [Vincent]: I think the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d has = no
>> limitations. For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to
>> terminate multiple VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP I= P
>> addresses.
>> Wim's mentions on cases where the Application itself, hosted in a<= br> >> datacenter, would be part of the option-C interconnect, was dismis= sed
>> without much discussion so far, while, if we look in detail at the=
>> type of users which will even consider a complex topology like mod= el-C
>> its most likely users and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs i= n
>> the WAN. Those type of operators will most likely be very interest= ed
>> in deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers= or
>> other VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the intercon= nect
>> would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the virtu= al
>> machine).
>> Also, the use of UDP ports at random would imply quite complex log= ic
>> on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its impossible, but since the >> received packet now not only has to be received on a random (thoug= h
>> locally chosen) UDP port and this information preserved in the
>> pipeline to be able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds q= uite
>> complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has alrea= dy
>> been implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And let's= not
>> even bring into account what this would do to any DC middlebox tha= t
>> now has to look at vxlan over almost any random port. We have to g= o
>> back to the "is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte x" heuristic= s to try to
>> guess whether the packet is vxlan or just something entirely diffe= rent
>> running over IP.
>> [Vincent]: Using NP or multi-core CPU hardware technology, it can = be
>> implemented although deeper packet inspection is needed to perform= UDP
>> port and MPLS stitching.
>> In general I feel the proposed solution seems to be fitting of a >> specific use-case which is not really detailed in the draft and do= es
>> not describe   a solution that would "elegantly&quo= t; solve the issues at
>> hand. It just feels like we're using any available bit-space to st= uff
>> data into places that do not necesarily belong.
>> Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual switches are not yet fully
>> available, and there can be some performance penalty on the TORs, = but
>> the solutions are much cleaner from a control and data plane point= of
>> view. Maybe I'm too utopic.
>> [Vincent]: I think pure VXLAN solution has its scenario, it's gene= ral
>> rather than specific. We can't require all OVS/NVEs support VXLAN = +
>> MPLSoGRE at the same time.
>> Best regards,
>> Diego
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
>> Hi,
>> The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center
>> GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as
>> traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common practise= on
>> ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing<= br> >> table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASB= R-d
>> needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transp= ort
>> layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the
>> scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only = for
>> MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive= in
>> data center,  the solution in this draft was proposed for the=
>> heterogeneous network interworking.
>> The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is=
>> required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traff= ic
>> uses VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UD= P encap.
>> There are two solutions in this draft:
>> 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d.
>> No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, on= ly
>> hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has
>> capability to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many I= P
>> addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on=
>> ASBR-d beforehand.
>> 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d.
>> Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for
>> allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with >> solution 1 and 2.
>> In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed = at
>> OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hard= ware
>> changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For = TOR
>> switch, it normally can't realize this function.  This soluti= on mainly
>> focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more
>> scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay >> network is the majority case.
>> Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envion= ment.
>> So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine.
>> Thanks,
>> weiguo
>> ________________________________
>> From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org>] on
>> behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net <mailto:jdrake@juniper.net>]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49
>> To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS
>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
>> Hi,
>> I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fata= l
>> flaws and I don=A1=AFt support it.  I also agree with his sug= gestion that
>> we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before sol= ving it.
>> Yours Irrespectively,
>> John
>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org
>> <mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM
>> To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com <mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com>; BESS
>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
>> =A1=AA Snip =A1=AA
>> No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with=
>> existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destinatio= n
>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).
>> (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexibl= e
>> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)
>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For t= his to
>> work every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/rec= eive
>> port.
>> There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF >> defines solutions which should be implemented across the board
>> HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will=
>> impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be be= hind
>> this solution.
>> To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow.=
>> Given this, we better do it in the right way and guide the industr= y to
>> a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we w= ill
>> stick with these specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc= ).
>> - snip -
>> From: "thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com><mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com>>" <thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com><mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com>>>
>> Organization: Orange
>> Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37
>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com><mailto:wim.henderi= ckx@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>>>, BESS <= ;bess@ietf.org
>> <mailto:bess= @ietf.org><mailto:bess@ietf.org <mailto:bess@ietf.org>>>
>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
>> Hi Wim, WG,
>> 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
>> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
>> Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe
>> requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the >> reasons explained.
>> TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal= , the
>> reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood.=
>> WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain = VXLAN
>> data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always w= here
>> an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of= the
>> NVE/TOR elements.
>> My understanding is that the applications  are contexts where= overlays
>> are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be
>> interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons = to
>> want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs.
>> In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that woul= d
>> typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR.
>> WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would = make
>> the solution flexible to support all of these not?
>> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
>> TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether y= ou prefer:
>> (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior >> specified in this draft)
>> or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to sup= port
>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE)
>> WH> b depends on the use case
>> I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case"= .
>> WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an applicatio= n
>> behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impac= t on
>> NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real >> driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based Fabr= ic.
>> Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, = I
>> don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss the pr= oposal.
>> WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons expla= ined:
>> too much impact on the data-planes
>> I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in
>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToR= s
>> and vswitches.
>> Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet >> assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but thi= s
>> certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps = had
>> you something else in mind ?
>> WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in exi= sting
>> TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void.
>> No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with=
>> existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destinatio= n
>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack).
>> (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexibl= e
>> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.)
>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support?
>> WH> and depending on implementation you don=A1=AFt need to chan= ge any of
>> the TOR/vswitches.
>> Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to >> change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may = ?
>> WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this = is not
>> a valid discussion
>> See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need cha= nges
>> in vswitches.
>> Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how= to
>> implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc<= br> >> based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of
>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me = as
>> making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. >> WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles<= br> >> multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ?
>> I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destinatio= n
>> port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft pr= oposes.
>> -Thomas
>> From: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com><mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com
>> <mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com>>>
>> Organization: Orange
>> Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57
>> To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com><mailto:wim.henderi= ckx@alcatel-lucent.com
>> <mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>>>
>> Cc: "bess@= ietf.org <mailto:= bess@ietf.org><mailto:bess@ietf.org
>> <mailto:bess= @ietf.org>>" <bess@ietf.org
>> <mailto:bess= @ietf.org><mailto:bess@ietf.org <mailto:bess@ietf.org>>>
>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc
>> Hi Wim,
>> I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to
>> implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports=
>> (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware
>> implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing
>> multiple IPs would be operationally viable.
>> However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you >> propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) >> encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is suppor= ted
>> or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support thi= s
>> kind of encap,  and even software-based switches may not be r= eady to
>> support that today).
>> My take is that having different options to adapt to various
>> implementations constraints we may have would have value.
>> (+ one question below on VXLAN...)
>> -Thomas
>> 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim):
>> On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used = with
>> a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a >> sender based on an ARP request when needed ?
>> Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ?
>> WH> yes
>> I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ?
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>BESS mailing list
>BESS@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8E9B30nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Fri Nov 20 01:01:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A1F1A905B for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:01:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id roVMGI33P_la for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor36.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83B061A904D for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 598D0400BE; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:01:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.1.183]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 317851A0056; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:01:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.1) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:01:35 +0100 To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:01:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.1] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:01:41 -0000 2015-11-19, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): > WH> I vote for a an evolution of switches/TORs that have proper > support for this. I hope some HW vendors of TOR chips shime in, but I > am told the MPLS solution is possible in the next generation chips > they are working on. Well, it looks like the key questions are: - when would ToR chips support MPLS/MPLS/UDP ? (the generation that has been released recently but not present in most shipping ToRs yet, the next one ?) - do we want an interim VXLAN-based solution ? (that will involve at best a performance penalty with existing chips, and at worse impossible to implement -- we haven't seen clear information in this thread) -Thomas >> Zhuangshunwan : >>> >>> Hi Diego, >>> >>> Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent]. >>> >>> Vincent >>> >>> *å‘件人:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Diego Garcia del >>> Rio *å‘é€æ—¶é—´:*2015å¹´11月18æ—¥14:25 *收件人:*bess@ietf.org *主题:*Re: [bess] >>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> >>> Some comments from my side, I think the draft makes quite a few >>> assumptions on specific implementation details that are way too >>> general to be considered widely available. Most of the TOR >>> devices today already pay a double-pass penalty when doing >>> routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the newest >>> generation can route into tunnels without additional passes. And >>> are definitively limited in being able to arbitrary select UDP >>> ports on a per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even limited at >>> using more than one VNID per "service" of sorts. [Vincent]: Yes, >>> the new generation BCM chipset has already supported VXLAN >>> routing without additional passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN >>> encapsulation is more popular than MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better >>> performance. The IP-addressed based implementation which would, I >>> assume, imply assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface >>> on the ASBR-d is also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a >>> technically "clean" solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As a >>> side-note, most PE-grade routers i've worked with were quite >>> limited in terms of IP addresses used for tunnel termination and >>> it wasn't that just a simple pool can be used. [Vincent]: I think >>> the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d has no limitations. >>> For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to terminate >>> multiple VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP IP >>> addresses. Wim's mentions on cases where the Application itself, >>> hosted in a datacenter, would be part of the option-C >>> interconnect, was dismissed without much discussion so far, >>> while, if we look in detail at the type of users which will even >>> consider a complex topology like model-C its most likely users >>> and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs in the WAN. Those type >>> of operators will most likely be very interested in deploying >>> MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers or other >>> VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the interconnect >>> would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the >>> virtual machine). Also, the use of UDP ports at random would >>> imply quite complex logic on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its >>> impossible, but since the received packet now not only has to be >>> received on a random (though locally chosen) UDP port and this >>> information preserved in the pipeline to be able to do the >>> double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds quite complex. I am sure >>> someone in the list will mention this has already been >>> implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And let's >>> not even bring into account what this would do to any DC >>> middlebox that now has to look at vxlan over almost any random >>> port. We have to go back to the "is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte >>> x" heuristics to try to guess whether the packet is vxlan or just >>> something entirely different running over IP. [Vincent]: Using NP >>> or multi-core CPU hardware technology, it can be implemented >>> although deeper packet inspection is needed to perform UDP port >>> and MPLS stitching. In general I feel the proposed solution seems >>> to be fitting of a specific use-case which is not really detailed >>> in the draft and does not describe a solution that would >>> "elegantly" solve the issues at hand. It just feels like we're >>> using any available bit-space to stuff data into places that do >>> not necesarily belong. Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual >>> switches are not yet fully available, and there can be some >>> performance penalty on the TORs, but the solutions are much >>> cleaner from a control and data plane point of view. Maybe I'm >>> too utopic. [Vincent]: I think pure VXLAN solution has its >>> scenario, it's general rather than specific. We can't require all >>> OVS/NVEs support VXLAN + MPLSoGRE at the same time. Best >>> regards, Diego >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Hi, >>> The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center >>> GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as >>> traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common >>> practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up >>> local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the >>> WAN network. ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In >>> Option-C method, only transport layer information needed to be >>> maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly >>> enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for MPLS VPN network >>> interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in data center, >>> the solution in this draft was proposed for the heterogeneous >>> network interworking. The advantage of this solution is that only >>> VXLAN encapsulation is required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's >>> solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN encap, while >>> north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are two >>> solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for >>> stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on >>> OVS or TOR switches, only hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d >>> normally is router, it has capability to realize the hardware >>> changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for >>> allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using >>> VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with >>> solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. If >>> UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and >>> 2. In this solution, both data plane modification changes are >>> needed at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to >>> realize the hardware changes. For OVS, it also can realize the >>> data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize >>> this function. This solution mainly focuses on pure software >>> based overlay network, it has more scalability. In public cloud >>> data center, software based overlay network is the majority >>> case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real >>> envionment. So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. >>> Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS >>> [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on behalf >>> of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net ] >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim >>> (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >>> ; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] >>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I think Wim has >>> conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal flaws and I >>> don’t support it. I also agree with his suggestion that we first >>> figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving >>> it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS >>> [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org ] On >>> Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 >>> 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >>> ; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] >>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc — Snip — No, the spec as it >>> is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing >>> vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, >>> ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another >>> story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN dataplane >>> nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports >>> simultaneously would they support? For this to work every tenant >>> needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive port. There >>> might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF defines >>> solutions which should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. >>> Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so >>> many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be behind this >>> solution. To make this work generically we will have to make >>> changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right way and >>> guide the industry to a solution which does not imply those >>> complexities. Otherwise we will stick with these specials forever >>> with all consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: >>> "thomas.morin@orange.com >>> >> >" >> >> >> Organization: Orange Date: >>> Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >>> >> >> >>> >>, BESS >> >> >> Subject: Re: [bess] >>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, >>> Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, >>> we can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, >>> but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons >>> explained. TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not >>> the goal, the reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be >>> thoroughly understood. WH> my point is what is the real driver >>> for supporting a plain VXLAN data-plane here, the use cases I >>> have seen in this txt is always where an application behind a >>> NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements. >>> My understanding is that the applications are contexts where >>> overlays are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to >>> be interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be >>> reasons to want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. In these >>> context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would >>> typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it >>> not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the >>> solution flexible to support all of these not? 2015-11-13, >>> Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The right trade-off to make may in >>> fact depend on whether you prefer: (a) a new dataplane stitching >>> behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior specified in this draft) or >>> (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to >>> support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I >>> don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see >>> my above comment. If the real use case is an application behind >>> NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on >>> NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real >>> driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based >>> Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can >>> always help, I don't think one can assume a certain application >>> to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not >>> acceptable for the reasons explained: too much impact on the >>> data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap >>> used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported >>> on the ToRs and vswitches. Another possibility would be >>> service-label/middle-label/Ethernet assuming an L2 adjacency >>> between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this certainly does not >>> match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had you something >>> else in mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now also requires >>> changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate >>> is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN >>> variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the >>> VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR >>> is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible >>> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and >>> how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and >>> depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of the >>> TOR/vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you >>> may not need to change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for >>> some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires >>> changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion See above, the >>> proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in >>> vswitches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite >>> easily see how to implement the procedures in >>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on current vswitch >>> implementations of VXLAN, the lack of MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) >>> support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as making that >>> alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. WH> I would >>> disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple UDP >>> ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a >>> variable destination port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to >>> implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin >>> >> >> >> Organization: Orange Date: >>> Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> Cc: "bess@ietf.org >> >" >> >> >> Subject: Re: [bess] >>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the >>> analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations that >>> supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard >>> to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you >>> suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would be >>> operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how >>> the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C with an >>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the >>> encap behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset >>> possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even >>> software-based switches may not be ready to support that today). >>> My take is that having different options to adapt to various >>> implementations constraints we may have would have value. (+ one >>> question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim >>> (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would >>> be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the >>> right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ? Is >>> the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> >>> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? >>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Fri Nov 20 01:05:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18F31A90A7 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:05:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-7EPTrnAuck for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0B831A90A4 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm13.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0C1ED324690; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:05:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id DF5D235C078; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:05:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.1) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:05:30 +0100 To: Haoweiguo , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <15937_1448010330_564EE25A_15937_6570_1_564EE25A.6080507@orange.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:05:30 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.1] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.20.82415 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:05:38 -0000 2015-11-20, Haoweiguo: > WH> ok now we have not discussed the constraints some HW vendors have > with respect to global VNIDs. To make this work all VNID/Labels need > to be globally unique. Hmmmmm > [weiguo2]: In SDN scenario, a virtual > network normally is represented by a global VN ID or MPLS VPN Label > to simplify network management. I think it's not strange to allocate > global unique MPLS VPN Label or VN ID for a virtual network now. In an option C scenario you have to take into account what is done in the WAN. Globally-assigned labels are not an option there at all. -Thomas >> >> The alternative approach, put forward by Wim, consist in using existing >> Option-C with a variant of the 3-label variant relying on an >> MPLS/MPLS/UDP-or-GRE encap (instead of the 3-label MPLS stack). This >> approach would not necessitate new standardized procedures, would >> require less changes on ASBRs. However it is not supported today by >> vswitches or ToRs (unless the bottom MPLS label is passed to the VM, >> which I think would restrict the application to a subset of the >> scenarios for which Option C is interesting). Having it supported in >> vswitches may be a simple matter of writing the software, but ToR >> support seems to require evolution in chipsets ; whether such a support >> is likely to appear hasn't been discussed in the thread. >> >> All in all, it seems there is no solution to cover an Option C scenario >> with today's generation ToRs, and the question for tomorrow's generation >> ToRs hasn't been really discussed. >> >> Based on the above, I would think the question boils down to whether it >> is desirable to specify an Option C variant usable with vswitches as >> they are today and possibly usable with a performance hit with today's >> ToRs chipsets, at the expense of a required evolution on ASBRs. The >> alternative requiring some evolution on vswitches and waiting for future >> ToRs chipsets. > WH> I vote for a an evolution of switches/TORs that have proper support for this. > I hope some HW vendors of TOR chips shime in, but I am told the MPLS solution is possible in the next generation chips they are working on. > [weiguo2]: I think it's better not to change current TOR hardware to realize option-C interconnection. No TOR hardware modification solution must be provided. But for future case, we can propose extra hardware requirements for TORs. > The other options requires baggage forever on the ASBR elements that does not bring value and it is better to avoid this and build an architecture which is future proof and more cost effective. My 2 cents >> >> -Thomas > >> >> Zhuangshunwan : >>> >>> Hi Diego, >>> >>> Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent]. >>> >>> Vincent >>> >>> *å‘件人:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Diego Garcia del Rio >>> *å‘é€æ—¶é—´:*2015å¹´11月18æ—¥14:25 >>> *收件人:*bess@ietf.org >>> *主题:*Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> >>> Some comments from my side, >>> I think the draft makes quite a few assumptions on specific >>> implementation details that are way too general to be considered >>> widely available. >>> Most of the TOR devices today already pay a double-pass penalty when >>> doing routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the newest >>> generation can route into tunnels without additional passes. And are >>> definitively limited in being able to arbitrary select UDP ports on a >>> per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even limited at using more than >>> one VNID per "service" of sorts. >>> [Vincent]: Yes, the new generation BCM chipset has already supported >>> VXLAN routing without additional passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN >>> encapsulation is more popular than MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better >>> performance. >>> The IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assume, imply >>> assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the ASBR-d is >>> also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a technically "clean" >>> solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As a side-note, most PE-grade >>> routers i've worked with were quite limited in terms of IP addresses >>> used for tunnel termination and it wasn't that just a simple pool can >>> be used. >>> [Vincent]: I think the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d has no >>> limitations. For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to >>> terminate multiple VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP IP >>> addresses. >>> Wim's mentions on cases where the Application itself, hosted in a >>> datacenter, would be part of the option-C interconnect, was dismissed >>> without much discussion so far, while, if we look in detail at the >>> type of users which will even consider a complex topology like model-C >>> its most likely users and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs in >>> the WAN. Those type of operators will most likely be very interested >>> in deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers or >>> other VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the interconnect >>> would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the virtual >>> machine). >>> Also, the use of UDP ports at random would imply quite complex logic >>> on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its impossible, but since the >>> received packet now not only has to be received on a random (though >>> locally chosen) UDP port and this information preserved in the >>> pipeline to be able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds quite >>> complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has already >>> been implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And let's not >>> even bring into account what this would do to any DC middlebox that >>> now has to look at vxlan over almost any random port. We have to go >>> back to the "is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte x" heuristics to try to >>> guess whether the packet is vxlan or just something entirely different >>> running over IP. >>> [Vincent]: Using NP or multi-core CPU hardware technology, it can be >>> implemented although deeper packet inspection is needed to perform UDP >>> port and MPLS stitching. >>> In general I feel the proposed solution seems to be fitting of a >>> specific use-case which is not really detailed in the draft and does >>> not describe a solution that would "elegantly" solve the issues at >>> hand. It just feels like we're using any available bit-space to stuff >>> data into places that do not necesarily belong. >>> Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual switches are not yet fully >>> available, and there can be some performance penalty on the TORs, but >>> the solutions are much cleaner from a control and data plane point of >>> view. Maybe I'm too utopic. >>> [Vincent]: I think pure VXLAN solution has its scenario, it's general >>> rather than specific. We can't require all OVS/NVEs support VXLAN + >>> MPLSoGRE at the same time. >>> Best regards, >>> Diego >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi, >>> The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center >>> GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as >>> traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common practise on >>> ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing >>> table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. ASBR-d >>> needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only transport >>> layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, the >>> scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is only for >>> MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming pervasive in >>> data center, the solution in this draft was proposed for the >>> heterogeneous network interworking. >>> The advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is >>> required for OVS/TOR. Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic >>> uses VXLAN encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. >>> There are two solutions in this draft: >>> 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP for stitching at ASBR-d. >>> No data plane modification requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only >>> hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has >>> capability to realize the hardware changes. It will consume many IP >>> addresses and the IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on >>> ASBR-d beforehand. >>> 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. >>> Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for >>> allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with >>> solution 1 and 2. >>> In this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at >>> OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the hardware >>> changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane changes. For TOR >>> switch, it normally can't realize this function. This solution mainly >>> focuses on pure software based overlay network, it has more >>> scalability. In public cloud data center, software based overlay >>> network is the majority case. >>> Whether using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. >>> So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. >>> Thanks, >>> weiguo >>> ________________________________ >>> From: BESS [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on >>> behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net ] >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 >>> To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >>> ; BESS >>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> Hi, >>> I think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal >>> flaws and I don’t support it. I also agree with his suggestion that >>> we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before solving it. >>> Yours Irrespectively, >>> John >>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org >>> ] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:49 PM >>> To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com ; BESS >>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> — Snip — >>> No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with >>> existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination >>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). >>> (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible >>> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) >>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? For this to >>> work every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP destination port/receive >>> port. >>> There might be SW elements that could do some of this, but IETF >>> defines solutions which should be implemented across the board >>> HW/SW/etc. Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will >>> impose so many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be behind >>> this solution. >>> To make this work generically we will have to make changes anyhow. >>> Given this, we better do it in the right way and guide the industry to >>> a solution which does not imply those complexities. Otherwise we will >>> stick with these specials forever with all consequences (bugs, etc). >>> - snip - >>> From: "thomas.morin@orange.com >>> >> >" >> >> >> >>> Organization: Orange >>> Date: Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 >>> To: Wim Henderickx >> >> >>, BESS >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> Hi Wim, WG, >>> 2015-11-16, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>> Thomas, we can discuss forever and someone need to describe >>> requirements, but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the >>> reasons explained. >>> TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the >>> reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. >>> WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN >>> data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always where >>> an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but none of the >>> NVE/TOR elements. >>> My understanding is that the applications are contexts where overlays >>> are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be >>> interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to >>> want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. >>> In these context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would >>> typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. >>> WH2> can it not be all cases: TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make >>> the solution flexible to support all of these not? >>> 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>> TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: >>> (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior >>> specified in this draft) >>> or (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support >>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) >>> WH> b depends on the use case >>> I don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". >>> WH> see my above comment. If the real use case is an application >>> behind NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on >>> NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real >>> driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based Fabric. >>> Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always help, I >>> don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss the proposal. >>> WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the reasons explained: >>> too much impact on the data-planes >>> I wrote the above based on the idea that the encap used in >>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs >>> and vswitches. >>> Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet >>> assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this >>> certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps had >>> you something else in mind ? >>> WH> see above. The draft right now also requires changes in existing >>> TOR/NVE so for me all this discussion/debate is void. >>> No, the spec as it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with >>> existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination >>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). >>> (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a flexible >>> enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) >>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? >>> WH> and depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of >>> the TOR/vswitches. >>> Does this mean that for some implementations you may not need to >>> change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some others you may ? >>> WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so for me this is not >>> a valid discussion >>> See above, the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes >>> in vswitches. >>> Let me take a practical example : while I can quite easily see how to >>> implement the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of >>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to me as >>> making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. >>> WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles >>> multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ? >>> I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a variable destination >>> port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. >>> -Thomas >>> From: Thomas Morin >> >> >> >>> Organization: Orange >>> Date: Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 >>> To: Wim Henderickx >> >> >> >>> Cc: "bess@ietf.org >> >" >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> Hi Wim, >>> I agree on the analysis that this proposal is restricted to >>> implementations that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports >>> (which may be hard to achieve for instance on hardware >>> implementations, as you suggest), or to context where managing >>> multiple IPs would be operationally viable. >>> However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative you >>> propose [relying on 3-label option C with an MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) >>> encap] addresses the issue of whether the encap behavior is supported >>> or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly may not support this >>> kind of encap, and even software-based switches may not be ready to >>> support that today). >>> My take is that having different options to adapt to various >>> implementations constraints we may have would have value. >>> (+ one question below on VXLAN...) >>> -Thomas >>> 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>> On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be used with >>> a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right MAC by a >>> sender based on an ARP request when needed ? >>> Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? >>> WH> yes >>> I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. 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<19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <05C1248C7A267D4F850AD10216F79C47@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 13:27:30 -0000 SW4tbGluZSB3aXRoIFdIPg0KDQoNCg0KDQpPbiAyMC8xMS8xNSAwMTowMSwgIkJFU1Mgb24gYmVo 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aXMgbWVzc2FnZSB3YXMgbW9kaWZpZWQsIGNoYW5nZWQgb3IgZmFsc2lmaWVkLg0KPlRoYW5rIHlv dS4NCj4NCj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0K PkJFU1MgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+QkVTU0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmVzcw0K From nobody Fri Nov 20 05:35:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946E61ACDEF for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:35:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TjtSNFrpy_Mn for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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"bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRIrh0vLe0+zOfv0mRY3+9Ea725J6i2lmAgAGLVICAAClUAP//xUoA Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 13:35:24 +0000 Message-ID: <0DE16708-1ED3-40D9-A8FB-2FEDD686D316@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <15937_1448010330_564EE25A_15937_6570_1_564EE25A.6080507@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <15937_1448010330_564EE25A_15937_6570_1_564EE25A.6080507@orange.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7CC49A005F6E9E41860895701AC28F55@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list 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ESMTP id 3D0D91ACEBB for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:50:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4sCzHcZd_-lo for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54B511ACEB8 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 05:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 0AD3763607FA; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 13:49:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 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[135.239.27.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 13:50:00 -0000 SW4tbGluZSB3aXRoIFdIMj4NCg0KDQoNCg0KT24gMTkvMTEvMTUgMjI6MzcsICJIYW93ZWlndW8i IDxoYW93ZWlndW9AaHVhd2VpLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5IaSBXaW0sDQo+UGxzIHNlZSBpbmxp bmUgd2l0aCBbd2VpZ3VvMl0uDQo+d2VpZ3VvDQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPkZyb206IEJFU1MgW2Jlc3MtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gb24gYmVo YWxmIG9mIEhlbmRlcmlja3gsIFdpbSAoV2ltKSBbd2ltLmhlbmRlcmlja3hAYWxjYXRlbC1sdWNl bnQuY29tXQ0KPlNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAxOSwgMjAxNSAyMzowMg0KPlRvOiBU aG9tYXMgTW9yaW47IGJlc3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5TdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2Jlc3NdIGRyYWZ0LWhh 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aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj5CRVNTQGlldGYub3JnDQo+Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmVzcw0KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQo+QkVTUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5CRVNTQGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iZXNzDQo= From nobody Fri Nov 20 08:49:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5D11B38D9 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:49:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JHMIDZVXKFKa for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44F981B388E for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAP38092; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:49:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:49:03 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml704-chm ([10.193.5.141]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:48:54 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRI3IOJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6lFZZQ Date: 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Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:49:15 -0000 U2hhcmUgbXkgMiBjZW50Lg0KDQpDbG91ZCBwcm92aWRlcnMgd2FudCB0byB0dW5uZWwgaXRzIGN1 c3RvbWVyIHRyYWZmaWMgdGhyb3VnaCBEQyAoQVMpQlIuIE9wdGlvbiBDIGlzIGEgd2F5IHRvIHJl YWxpemUgaXQuIEJvdGggc29sdXRpb25zIHN1bW1hcml6ZWQgYnkgVGhvbWFzIGhhdmUgbm8gY2hh bmdlIG9uIFdBTiBWUE4gc2lkZSBhbmQgc2VhbWxlc3NseSB3b3JrIHdpdGggV0FOIFZQTiBvcHRp b24gQy4gSG93ZXZlciwgdG8gc3VwcG9ydCBlaXRoZXIgc29sdXRpb24sIERDIGhhcyB0byBkbyBz b21lIGVuaGFuY2VtZW50IG9uIERDIEJSIG9yIFRvUiBzd2l0Y2gsIGV0Yywgd2hpY2ggZGljdGF0 ZXMgdG8gZGlmZmVyZW50IGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyB3aXRoaW4gYSBEQy4gT3B0aW9uIEMgcHJv IGFuZCBjb24gcmVtYWlucyByZWdhcmRsZXNzIHdoYXQgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24gaXMgdXNlZCBp biBhIERDLiANCg0KVHdvIHNvbHV0aW9ucyBzaG91bGQgbm90IGNvZXhpc3QgaW4gb25lIERDIChk b2VzIG5vdCBtYWtlIGEgc2Vuc2UpLCBidXQgaXQgZG9lcyBub3QgbWF0dGVyIGlmIG9uZSBEQyBv 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MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Nov 2015 16:53:34.8305 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR0501MB1710 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:53:48 -0000 THVjeSwNCg0KVGhhdCBwcmVzdXBwb3NlcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBncm91cCBsaWtlcyBlaXRoZXIgb2Yg dGhlIHR3byBwcm9wb3NlZCBzb2x1dGlvbnMgaW4geW91ciBkcmFmdC4gIA0KDQpZb3VycyBJcnJl c3BlY3RpdmVseSwNCg0KSm9obg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZy b206IEJFU1MgW21haWx0bzpiZXNzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBMdWN5 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dHMgYXR0YWNobWVudHMuDQo+IEFzIGVtYWlscyBtYXkgYmUgYWx0ZXJlZCwgRnJhbmNlIFRlbGVj b20gLSBPcmFuZ2Ugc2hhbGwgbm90IGJlIGxpYWJsZSBpZiB0aGlzDQo+IG1lc3NhZ2Ugd2FzIG1v ZGlmaWVkLCBjaGFuZ2VkIG9yIGZhbHNpZmllZC4NCj4gVGhhbmsgeW91Lg0KPiANCj4gX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gQkVTUyBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4gQkVTU0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2Jlc3MNCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18NCj4gQkVTUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gQkVTU0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Jlc3MNCg== From nobody Fri Nov 20 08:59:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9301B2ADE for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:59:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.786 tagged_above=-999 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([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml702-chm ([10.193.5.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:58:45 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: John E Drake , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRI3IOJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6lFZZQgACRngD//3tX8A== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:58:45 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B138@dfweml701-chm> References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.157.236] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.564F514C.02D3, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: ceb60f37a8fd0834926d760c5c14f917 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:59:03 -0000 VGhhdCBpcyBteSAyIGNlbnRzLiBBbnlvbmUgY2FuIHNoYXJlIGhpcy9oZXIgb3Bpbmlvbi4gOikN Ckx1Y3kNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEpvaG4gRSBEcmFrZSBb bWFpbHRvOmpkcmFrZUBqdW5pcGVyLm5ldF0gDQpTZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIE5vdmVtYmVyIDIwLCAy MDE1IDEwOjU0IEFNDQpUbzogTHVjeSB5b25nOyBFWFQgLSB0aG9tYXMubW9yaW5Ab3JhbmdlLmNv bTsgSGVuZGVyaWNreCwgV2ltIChXaW0pOyBiZXNzQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogW2Jl 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RVNTIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBCRVNTQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmVzcw0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBCRVNTIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBCRVNTQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmVzcw0K From nobody Fri Nov 20 09:04:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F16F1B2C74 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:04:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jgd64lafjzQY for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor34.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D35E1B2C70 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.66]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 3B265403CF; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:04:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.1.183]) by opfednr02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 01416120055; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:04:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.1) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:04:03 +0100 To: John E Drake , Lucy yong , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <22461_1448039044_564F5284_22461_15936_1_564F5283.3070301@orange.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:04:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.1] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 17:04:10 -0000 2015-11-20, John E Drake: > That presupposes that the group likes either of the two proposed solutions in your draft. John, I think Lucy's "two solutions" was referring to draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc solution and the 3-label Optionc MPLS/MPLS/UDP solution described by Wim. -Thomas > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 11:49 AM >> To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); >> bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >> >> Share my 2 cent. >> >> Cloud providers want to tunnel its customer traffic through DC (AS)BR. >> Option C is a way to realize it. Both solutions summarized by Thomas have no >> change on WAN VPN side and seamlessly work with WAN VPN option C. >> However, to support either solution, DC has to do some enhancement on DC >> BR or ToR switch, etc, which dictates to different implementations within a >> DC. Option C pro and con remains regardless what implementation is used in >> a DC. >> >> Two solutions should not coexist in one DC (does not make a sense), but it >> does not matter if one DC operator prefers to use one solution and another >> DC prefers to use another solution. Since there are many cloud providers >> today, it is worth for the WG to document both solutions and point out the >> implementation requirements on impacted components. Then, up to >> vendors and operators to select a solution for their DC. >> >> It does not make a sense for us to vote which solution is better here because >> a better solution for a DC depends on many factors. >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> thomas.morin@orange.com >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 3:02 AM >> To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >> >> 2015-11-19, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>> WH> I vote for a an evolution of switches/TORs that have proper >>> support for this. I hope some HW vendors of TOR chips shime in, but I >>> am told the MPLS solution is possible in the next generation chips >>> they are working on. >> >> Well, it looks like the key questions are: >> - when would ToR chips support MPLS/MPLS/UDP ? (the generation that has >> been released recently but not present in most shipping ToRs yet, the next >> one ?) >> - do we want an interim VXLAN-based solution ? (that will involve at best a >> performance penalty with existing chips, and at worse impossible to >> implement -- we haven't seen clear information in this thread) >> >> -Thomas >> >> >>>> Zhuangshunwan : >>>>> >>>>> Hi Diego, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent]. >>>>> >>>>> Vincent >>>>> >>>>> *å‘件人:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Diego Garcia >> del Rio >>>>> *å‘é€æ—¶é—´:*2015å¹´11月18æ—¥14:25 *收件人:*bess@ietf.org *主题 >> :*Re: [bess] >>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>> >>>>> Some comments from my side, I think the draft makes quite a few >>>>> assumptions on specific implementation details that are way too >>>>> general to be considered widely available. Most of the TOR devices >>>>> today already pay a double-pass penalty when doing routing of >>>>> traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the newest generation can >>>>> route into tunnels without additional passes. And are definitively >>>>> limited in being able to arbitrary select UDP ports on a per tunnel >>>>> basis. In fact, most are even limited at using more than one VNID >>>>> per "service" of sorts. [Vincent]: Yes, the new generation BCM >>>>> chipset has already supported VXLAN routing without additional >>>>> passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN encapsulation is more popular than >>>>> MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better performance. The IP-addressed based >>>>> implementation which would, I assume, imply assigning one or more >>>>> CIDRs to a loopback interface on the ASBR-d is also quite arbitrary >>>>> and does not seem like a technically "clean" solution. (besides >>>>> burning tons of IPs). As a side-note, most PE-grade routers i've >>>>> worked with were quite limited in terms of IP addresses used for >>>>> tunnel termination and it wasn't that just a simple pool can be >>>>> used. [Vincent]: I think the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d >>>>> has no limitations. >>>>> For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to terminate multiple >>>>> VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP IP addresses. Wim's >>>>> mentions on cases where the Application itself, hosted in a >>>>> datacenter, would be part of the option-C interconnect, was >>>>> dismissed without much discussion so far, while, if we look in >>>>> detail at the type of users which will even consider a complex >>>>> topology like model-C its most likely users and operators very >>>>> familiar with MPLS VPNs in the WAN. Those type of operators will >>>>> most likely be very interested in deploying MPLS or WAN-grade >>>>> applications (i.e., virtual-routers or other >>>>> VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the interconnect >>>>> would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather the TS (the virtual >>>>> machine). Also, the use of UDP ports at random would imply quite >>>>> complex logic on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im not saying its impossible, but >>>>> since the received packet now not only has to be received on a >>>>> random (though locally chosen) UDP port and this information >>>>> preserved in the pipeline to be able to do the >>>>> double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds quite complex. I am sure someone >>>>> in the list will mention this has already been implemented >>>>> somewhere, and I won't argue with that. And let's not even bring >>>>> into account what this would do to any DC middlebox that now has to >>>>> look at vxlan over almost any random port. We have to go back to the >>>>> "is it a 4 or is it a 6 in byte x" heuristics to try to guess >>>>> whether the packet is vxlan or just something entirely different >>>>> running over IP. [Vincent]: Using NP or multi-core CPU hardware >>>>> technology, it can be implemented although deeper packet inspection >>>>> is needed to perform UDP port and MPLS stitching. In general I feel >>>>> the proposed solution seems to be fitting of a specific use-case >>>>> which is not really detailed >>>>> in the draft and does not describe a solution that would >>>>> "elegantly" solve the issues at hand. It just feels like we're using >>>>> any available bit-space to stuff data into places that do not >>>>> necesarily belong. Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual switches are >>>>> not yet fully available, and there can be some performance penalty >>>>> on the TORs, but the solutions are much cleaner from a control and >>>>> data plane point of view. Maybe I'm too utopic. [Vincent]: I think >>>>> pure VXLAN solution has its scenario, it's general rather than >>>>> specific. We can't require all OVS/NVEs support VXLAN + MPLSoGRE at >>>>> the same time. Best regards, Diego >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ------------- >>>>> >>>>> >> Hi, >>>>> The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center >>>>> GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as >>>>> traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common practise >>>>> on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up local routing >>>>> table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the WAN network. >>>>> ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, only >>>>> transport layer information needed to be maintained at GW/ASBR-d, >>>>> the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal Option-C is >>>>> only for MPLS VPN network interworking, because VXLAN is becoming >>>>> pervasive in data center, the solution in this draft was proposed >>>>> for the heterogeneous network interworking. The advantage of this >>>>> solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required for OVS/TOR. >>>>> Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN encap, >>>>> while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. There are >>>>> two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination IP >>>>> for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification requirements on >>>>> OVS or TOR switches, only hardware changes on ASBR-d. ASBR-d >>>>> normally is router, it has capability to realize the hardware >>>>> changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the IP pool for >>>>> allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d beforehand. 2. Using >>>>> VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching at ASBR-d. Compared with >>>>> solution 1, less IP address will be consumed for allocation. If UDP >>>>> port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. In >>>>> this solution, both data plane modification changes are needed at >>>>> OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to realize the >>>>> hardware changes. For OVS, it also can realize the data plane >>>>> changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function. >>>>> This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay network, >>>>> it has more scalability. In public cloud data center, software based >>>>> overlay network is the majority case. Whether using solution 1 or 2 >>>>> depends on the operators real envionment. So I think our solution >>>>> has no flaws, it works fine. >>>>> Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS >>>>> [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on behalf of >>>>> John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net ] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); >>>>> EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com ; >> BESS >>>>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I >>>>> think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has fatal >>>>> flaws and I don’t support it. I also agree with his suggestion that >>>>> we first figure out what problem we are trying to solve before >>>>> solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS >>>>> [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org ] On >>>>> Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim (Wim) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 >>>>> 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >>>>> ; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc — Snip — No, the spec as it is >>>>> can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches >>>>> (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the >>>>> linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them >>>>> not having a flexible enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any >>>>> MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they >>>>> support? For this to work every tenant needs a different VXLAN UDP >>>>> destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements that could >>>>> do some of this, but IETF defines solutions which should be >>>>> implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. >>>>> Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose so >>>>> many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be behind this >>>>> solution. To make this work generically we will have to make changes >>>>> anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right way and guide the >>>>> industry to a solution which does not imply those complexities. >>>>> Otherwise we will stick with these specials forever with all >>>>> consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: >>>>> "thomas.morin@orange.com >>>>> >> >>>> >" >>>> >> >>>> >> Organization: Orange Date: >>>>> Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >>>>> >>>> > lucent.com>>>>> atel-lucent.com >>>>> >>>>> >> >>, BESS >>>> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, >>>>> Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): Thomas, >> we >>>>> can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, but >>>>> the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. >>>>> TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the goal, the >>>>> reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. >>>>> WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain VXLAN >>>>> data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is always >>>>> where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding option c, but >>>>> none of the NVE/TOR elements. >>>>> My understanding is that the applications are contexts where >>>>> overlays are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need to be >>>>> interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be reasons to >>>>> want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. In these context, its >>>>> not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would typically handle VRFs, >>>>> but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can it not be all cases: >>>>> TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to >>>>> support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): TM> The >>>>> right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether you prefer: >>>>> (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the behavior >>>>> specified in this draft) or >>>>> (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to support >>>>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I don't get >>>>> what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see my above >>>>> comment. If the real use case is an application behind NVE/TOR >>>>> requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on NVE/TOR is >>>>> void. As such I want to have a discussion on the real >>>>> driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP based >>>>> Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements can always >>>>> help, I don't think one can assume a certain application to dismiss >>>>> the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is not acceptable for the >>>>> reasons explained: too much impact on the data-planes I wrote the >>>>> above based on the idea that the encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or >>>>> GRE), which hence has to be supported on the ToRs and vswitches. >>>>> Another possibility would be service-label/middle-label/Ethernet >>>>> assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but this >>>>> certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or perhaps >>>>> had you something else in mind ? WH> see above. The draft right now >>>>> also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so for me all this >>>>> discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it is can be implemented >>>>> in its VXLAN variant with existing vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to >>>>> choose the VXLAN destination port, ditto for the linux kernel >>>>> stack). (ToR is certainly another story, most of them not having a >>>>> flexible enough VXLAN dataplane nor support for any MPLS-over-IP.) >>>>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> and >>>>> depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of the >>>>> TOR/vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you may >>>>> not need to change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for some >>>>> others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires changes, so >>>>> for me this is not a valid discussion See above, the proposal in the >>>>> draft does not necessarily need changes in vswitches. Let me take a >>>>> practical example : while I can quite easily see how to implement >>>>> the procedures in draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc based on >>>>> current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of >>>>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to >> me as >>>>> making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. WH> >>>>> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles multiple >>>>> UDP ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and many do support a >>>>> variable destination port for VXLAN, which is sufficient to >>>>> implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: Thomas Morin >>>>> >>>> >> >>>> >> Organization: Orange Date: >>>>> Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx >>>>> >>>> > lucent.com>>>>> atel-lucent.com >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Cc: "bess@ietf.org >>>> >" >>>> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the >>>>> analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations that >>>>> supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may be hard to >>>>> achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as you suggest), >>>>> or to context where managing multiple IPs would be operationally >>>>> viable. However, it does not seem obvious to me how the alternative >>>>> you propose [relying on 3-label option C with an >>>>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the >> encap >>>>> behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset possibly >>>>> may not support this kind of encap, and even software-based >>>>> switches may not be ready to support that today). >>>>> My take is that having different options to adapt to various >>>>> implementations constraints we may have would have value. (+ one >>>>> question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, Wim >>>>> (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they would be >>>>> used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced by the right >>>>> MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when needed ? Is the above >>>>> the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and NVGRE ? WH> yes I you >>>>> don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? >>>>> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> __________________________________________________________ >> _____ >> >> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites >> ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez >> le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les >> messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - >> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou >> falsifie. Merci >> >> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged >> information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, >> used or copied without authorization. >> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete >> this message and its attachments. >> As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if this >> message was modified, changed or falsified. >> Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if this message was modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nehalbhau@gmail.com Fri Nov 20 08:19:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DAC1B3621 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:19:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lgCiLUyfHhPq for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com (mail-ig0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2C891B361F for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by igvg19 with SMTP id g19so35584838igv.1 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:19:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=NBbd/1Vg1j3Li1R4xXi6OydMEJeY+3vLM9ueppsalp0=; b=MnzbtLuGANjWSc9MWLwH1YPTv2FmNXsN/EDfrHfIRPEbYvYWJ9uYjQ4xsOD9VXQBak Aza2Ui7+6+YoDoSAt4hmzF4wwt17UuXluXyRtYveIVsfB1Q266w/5mFMqBA9KcWLDay1 2qocoZp6Ql6j75xNpZEsA6BNWB30tXrX1frPVCUYIru/CF+fBMOhEfybMNqT0mlbFC/8 84DVRXxuF7k2GDoxlrYUW6D7YfPBB9qBmDaAPH2dxSNf5ATop/dVVDGBs/yW6TnMaNeI iZtMyF4XmwO9Em+nDaxJ6hnMYPNHogIy9tPK91OH6rz8g5t3ntDOHA1SkdqS5+RfSztI tRqg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.225.102 with SMTP id rj6mr726358igc.95.1448036365215; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.9.81 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:19:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:19:25 -0800 Message-ID: From: Nehal Bhau To: bess@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c39c4e2bae840524fb3d08 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:14:29 -0800 Subject: Re: [bess] draft-morin-bess-mvpn-fast-failover X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:21:47 -0000 --001a11c39c4e2bae840524fb3d08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Besides the below IPR, I am not aware of any other IP related to the draft. https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2697/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2696/ Thanks, -Nehal --001a11c39c4e2bae840524fb3d08 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Besides the below IPR, I am not aware of any= other IP related to the draft.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2697/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/i= pr/2696/

Thanks,

<= p style=3D"font-size:13.6px;line-height:16pt;background-image:initial;backg= round-repeat:initial">-Nehal

--001a11c39c4e2bae840524fb3d08-- From nobody Fri Nov 20 09:19:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3B81B3968 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:19:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLvxWXJpxAHv for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0748.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:748]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E7B31B3966 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.130.155) by SN1PR0501MB1711.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.130.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 17:18:54 +0000 Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) by SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) with mapi id 15.01.0325.019; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 17:18:54 +0000 From: John E Drake To: "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , Lucy yong , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRIcnnJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6hcc6AgAG7hoCAAEXDAIABLXKAgACCkICAAAC0wIAAA4mAgAABiRA= Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 17:18:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> 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MISOUT7MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.148]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:51:09 -0500 From: "UTTARO, JAMES" To: John E Drake , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , Lucy yong , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRIrjGEqanZzR+OUaQ6midhVMQb56jxQsAgAEtcoCAAIKQgIAAAU8AgAAC7oCAAAQmAP//tSIg Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 17:51:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> <22461_1448039044_564F5284_22461_15936_1_564F5283.3070301@orange.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.170.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2015-11-20_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1507310000 definitions=main-1511200303 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 17:51:46 -0000 KzENCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEJFU1MgW21haWx0bzpiZXNz LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBKb2huIEUgRHJha2UNClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRh eSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMjAsIDIwMTUgMTI6MTkgUE0NClRvOiBFWFQgLSB0aG9tYXMubW9yaW5Ab3Jh 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cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iZXNzDQo= From nobody Fri Nov 20 11:31:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA04C1B2D09 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x_Np_7cxYQ3I for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 11:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B56521B2D07 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 11:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 6BDCCE910A664; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 19:31:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAKJVnuJ015856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:31:49 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.183]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:31:48 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" To: "UTTARO, JAMES" , John E Drake , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , Lucy yong , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRIcnnUaQYRAA0kku8EyBXiqV5956hYQuAgAG7hoCAAEXCAIABLXOAgACCj4CAAAFPAIAAAu6AgAAEJgCAAAkCAP//lgEA Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 19:31:47 +0000 Message-ID: <9C29802C-77FD-4542-A02D-F020999AC60A@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> <22461_1448039044_564F5284_22461_15936_1_564F5283.3070301@orange.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4F609C2D8376CE449ABC93D44EE71AF7@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 19:31:57 -0000 SU1ITyBpZiBUT1IgY2hpcCB2ZW5kb3JzIGNhbiBjb25maXJtIHRoZXkgYXJlIHNlcmlvdXNseSBs b29raW5nIGF0IE1QTFMvTVBMUy9VRFAsIFdpbeKAmXMgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBtYWtlcyBhbGwgdGhl IHNlbnNlIHNpbmNlIHdlIGtub3cgaXQgd29ya3MgYW5kIHNjYWxlcy4NCk15IDIgY2VudHMuDQoN CkpvcmdlDQoNCg0KDQpPbiAxMS8yMC8xNSwgOTo1MSBBTSwgIkJFU1Mgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIFVU VEFSTywgSkFNRVMiIDxiZXNzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIGp1MTczOEBh dHQuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPisxDQo+DQo+LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj5G cm9tOiBCRVNTIFttYWlsdG86YmVzcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgSm9o biBFIERyYWtlDQo+U2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMCwgMjAxNSAxMjoxOSBQTQ0KPlRv OiBFWFQgLSB0aG9tYXMubW9yaW5Ab3JhbmdlLmNvbTsgTHVjeSB5b25nOyBIZW5kZXJpY2t4LCBX aW0gKFdpbSk7IGJlc3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5TdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2Jlc3NdIGRyYWZ0LWhhby1i 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<9C29802C-77FD-4542-A02D-F020999AC60A@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.152.239] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.564F7B41.0086, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: ceb60f37a8fd0834926d760c5c14f917 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 19:58:02 -0000 SU1ITzogdm90aW5nIG9uIHRoaXMgdGhyZWFkIGRvZXMgbm90IG1ha2UgYSBzZW5zZS4gQm90aCBz 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YWlscyBtYXkgYmUgYWx0ZXJlZCwgRnJhbmNlIFRlbGVjb20gLSBPcmFuZ2Ugc2hhbGwgbm90IGJl IGxpYWJsZSANCj4+IGlmIHRoaXMgbWVzc2FnZSB3YXMgbW9kaWZpZWQsIGNoYW5nZWQgb3IgZmFs c2lmaWVkLg0KPj4gVGhhbmsgeW91Lg0KPg0KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+QkVTUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5CRVNTQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iZXNzDQo+X19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5CRVNTIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K PkJFU1NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Jl c3MNCg== From nobody Fri Nov 20 12:13:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44BF1B341E for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:13:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HTGzQBvGejUV for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 794521B341F for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.64]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 3E84F6B9A846 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:13:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70twxchhub04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.36]) by us70tusmtp2.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAKKD7B8031638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:13:07 GMT Received: from [135.227.239.125] (135.5.27.16) by US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (135.5.2.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:13:06 -0500 Message-ID: <564F7ED1.6090409@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 21:13:05 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> <22461_1448039044_564F5284_22461_15936_1_564F5283.3070301@orange.com> <9C29802C-77FD-4542-A02D-F020999AC60A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B256@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B256@dfweml701-chm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.5.27.16] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:13:16 -0000 Lucy, there is no such thing as voting in IETF WGs And I haven't seen anything like voting as part of this discussion. Thank you Martin Le 20/11/2015 20:57, Lucy yong a écrit : > IMHO: voting on this thread does not make a sense. Both solutions will work and scales. > > Lucy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [mailto:jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 1:32 PM > To: UTTARO, JAMES; John E Drake; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; Lucy yong; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > IMHO if TOR chip vendors can confirm they are seriously looking at MPLS/MPLS/UDP, Wim’s suggestion makes all the sense since we know it works and scales. > My 2 cents. > > Jorge > > > > On 11/20/15, 9:51 AM, "BESS on behalf of UTTARO, JAMES" wrote: > >> +1 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John E Drake >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 12:19 PM >> To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; Lucy yong; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); >> bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >> >> Lucy, >> >> My apologies, I misunderstood. >> >> I think we have to accept the fact that we will have to deal with a multiplicity of different encapsulations in the data plane along a packet's e2e path and that we should take a more measured approach to deciding how to deal with this in a general and extensible way before accepting any solutions. >> >> Yours Irrespectively, >> >> John >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: thomas.morin@orange.com [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >>> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 12:04 PM >>> To: John E Drake; Lucy yong; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); bess@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> >>> 2015-11-20, John E Drake: >>>> That presupposes that the group likes either of the two proposed >>>> solutions >>> in your draft. >>> >>> John, I think Lucy's "two solutions" was referring to >>> draft-hao-bess-inter- nvo3-vpn-optionc solution and the 3-label >>> Optionc MPLS/MPLS/UDP solution described by Wim. >>> >>> -Thomas >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 11:49 AM >>>>> To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); >>>>> bess@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>> >>>>> Share my 2 cent. >>>>> >>>>> Cloud providers want to tunnel its customer traffic through DC (AS)BR. >>>>> Option C is a way to realize it. Both solutions summarized by >>>>> Thomas have no change on WAN VPN side and seamlessly work with WAN >>>>> VPN >>> option C. >>>>> However, to support either solution, DC has to do some enhancement >>>>> on DC BR or ToR switch, etc, which dictates to different >>>>> implementations within a DC. Option C pro and con remains >>>>> regardless what implementation is used in a DC. >>>>> >>>>> Two solutions should not coexist in one DC (does not make a >>>>> sense), but it does not matter if one DC operator prefers to use >>>>> one solution and another DC prefers to use another solution. Since >>>>> there are many cloud providers today, it is worth for the WG to >>>>> document both solutions and point out the implementation >>>>> requirements on impacted components. Then, up to vendors and >>>>> operators to select a solution for >>> their DC. >>>>> >>>>> It does not make a sense for us to vote which solution is better >>>>> here because a better solution for a DC depends on many factors. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Lucy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> thomas.morin@orange.com >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 3:02 AM >>>>> To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); bess@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>> >>>>> 2015-11-19, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>>>> WH> I vote for a an evolution of switches/TORs that have proper >>>>>> support for this. I hope some HW vendors of TOR chips shime in, >>>>>> but I am told the MPLS solution is possible in the next >>>>>> generation chips they are working on. >>>>> >>>>> Well, it looks like the key questions are: >>>>> - when would ToR chips support MPLS/MPLS/UDP ? (the generation >>>>> that has been released recently but not present in most shipping >>>>> ToRs yet, the next one ?) >>>>> - do we want an interim VXLAN-based solution ? (that will involve >>>>> at best a performance penalty with existing chips, and at worse >>>>> impossible to implement -- we haven't seen clear information in >>>>> this >>>>> thread) >>>>> >>>>> -Thomas >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Zhuangshunwan : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Diego, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Vincent >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *å‘件人:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Diego Garcia >>>>> del Rio >>>>>>>> *å‘é€æ—¶é—´:*2015å¹´11月18æ—¥14:25 *收件人:*bess@ietf.org *主题 >>>>> :*Re: [bess] >>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some comments from my side, I think the draft makes quite a few >>>>>>>> assumptions on specific implementation details that are way too >>>>>>>> general to be considered widely available. Most of the TOR >>>>>>>> devices today already pay a double-pass penalty when doing >>>>>>>> routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the >>>>>>>> newest generation can route into tunnels without additional >>>>>>>> passes. And are definitively limited in being able to arbitrary >>>>>>>> select UDP ports on a per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even >>>>>>>> limited at using more than one VNID per "service" of sorts. >>>>>>>> [Vincent]: Yes, the new generation BCM chipset has already >>>>>>>> supported VXLAN routing >>> without >>>>>>>> additional passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN encapsulation is more >>>>>>>> popular than MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better performance. The >>>>>>>> IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assume, imply >>>>>>>> assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the >>>>>>>> ASBR-d is also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a >>>>>>>> technically "clean" solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As >>>>>>>> a side-note, most PE-grade routers i've worked with were quite >>>>>>>> limited in terms of IP addresses used for tunnel termination >>>>>>>> and it wasn't that just a simple pool can be used. [Vincent]: I >>>>>>>> think the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d has no limitations. >>>>>>>> For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to terminate >>>>>>>> multiple VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP IP >>>>>>>> addresses. Wim's mentions on cases where the Application >>>>>>>> itself, hosted in a datacenter, would be part of the option-C >>>>>>>> interconnect, was dismissed without much discussion so far, >>>>>>>> while, if we look in detail at the type of users which will >>>>>>>> even consider a complex topology like model-C its most likely >>>>>>>> users and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs in the WAN. >>>>>>>> Those type of operators will most likely be very interested in >>>>>>>> deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers >>>>>>>> or other >>>>>>>> VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the >>>>>>>> interconnect would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather >>>>>>>> the TS (the virtual machine). Also, the use of UDP ports at >>>>>>>> random would imply quite complex logic on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im >>>>>>>> not saying its impossible, but since the received packet now >>>>>>>> not only has to be received on a random (though locally chosen) >>>>>>>> UDP port and this information preserved in the pipeline to be >>>>>>>> able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds quite >>>>>>>> complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has >>>>>>>> already been implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with >>>>>>>> that. And let's not even bring into account what this would do >>>>>>>> to any DC middlebox that now has to look at vxlan over almost >>>>>>>> any random port. We have to go back to the "is it a 4 or is it >>>>>>>> a 6 in byte x" heuristics to try to guess whether the packet is >>>>>>>> vxlan or just something entirely different running over IP. >>>>>>>> [Vincent]: Using NP or multi-core CPU hardware technology, it >>>>>>>> can be implemented although deeper packet inspection is needed >>>>>>>> to perform UDP port and MPLS stitching. In general I feel the >>>>>>>> proposed solution seems to be fitting of a specific use-case which is not really detailed >>>>>>>> in the draft and does not describe a solution that would >>>>>>>> "elegantly" solve the issues at hand. It just feels like we're >>>>>>>> using any available bit-space to stuff data into places that do >>>>>>>> not necesarily belong. Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual >>>>>>>> switches are not yet fully available, and there can be some >>>>>>>> performance penalty on the TORs, but the solutions are much >>>>>>>> cleaner from a control and data plane point of view. Maybe I'm >>>>>>>> too utopic. [Vincent]: I think pure VXLAN solution has its >>>>>>>> scenario, it's general rather than specific. We can't require >>>>>>>> all OVS/NVEs support VXLAN + MPLSoGRE at the same time. Best >>>>>>>> regards, Diego >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> ------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center >>>>>>>> GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as >>>>>>>> traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common >>>>>>>> practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up >>>>>>>> local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the >>>>>>>> WAN >>> network. >>>>>>>> ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, >>>>>>>> only transport layer information needed to be maintained at >>>>>>>> GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal >>>>>>>> Option-C is only for MPLS VPN network interworking, because >>>>>>>> VXLAN is >>> becoming >>>>>>>> pervasive in data center, the solution in this draft was >>>>>>>> proposed for the heterogeneous network interworking. The >>>>>>>> advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required for OVS/TOR. >>>>>>>> Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN >>>>>>>> encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. >>>>>>>> There >>> are >>>>>>>> two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination >>>>>>>> IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification >>>>>>>> requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardware changes on >>>>>>>> ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to realize >>>>>>>> the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the >>>>>>>> IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d >>>>>>>> beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching >>>>>>>> at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be >>>>>>>> consumed for allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. >>>>>>>> In this solution, both data plane modification changes are >>>>>>>> needed at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to >>>>>>>> realize the hardware changes. For OVS, it also can realize the >>>>>>>> data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function. >>>>>>>> This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay >>>>>>>> network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data center, >>>>>>>> software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether >>>>>>>> using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. >>>>>>>> So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. >>>>>>>> Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS >>>>>>>> [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on >>>>>>>> behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net >>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim >>> (Wim); >>>>>>>> EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >>> ; >>>>> BESS >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I >>>>>>>> think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has >>>>>>>> fatal flaws and I don’t support it. I also agree with his >>>>>>>> suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying >>>>>>>> to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: >>>>>>>> BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>>>> ] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim >>>>>>>> (Wim) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 >>>>>>>> 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >>>>>>>> ; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc — Snip — No, the spec as >>>>>>>> it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing >>>>>>>> vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination >>>>>>>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly >>>>>>>> another story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN >>>>>>>> dataplane nor support for any >>>>>>>> MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they >>>>>>>> support? For this to work every tenant needs a different VXLAN >>>>>>>> UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements >>>>>>>> that could do some of this, but IETF defines solutions which >>>>>>>> should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. >>>>>>>> Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose >>>>>>>> so many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be behind >>>>>>>> this solution. To make this work generically we will have to >>>>>>>> make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right >>>>>>>> way and guide the industry to a solution which does not imply >>>>>>>> those >>> complexities. >>>>>>>> Otherwise we will stick with these specials forever with all >>>>>>>> consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: >>>>>>>> "thomas.morin@orange.com >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >" >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >> Organization: Orange Date: >>>>>>>> Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> lucent.com>>>>>>>> atel-lucent.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>, BESS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, >>>>>>>> Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>> Thomas, >>>>> we >>>>>>>> can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, >>>>>>>> but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. >>>>>>>> TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the >>>>>>>> TM> goal, the >>>>>>>> reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. >>>>>>>> WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain >>>>>>>> WH> VXLAN >>>>>>>> data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is >>>>>>>> always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding >>>>>>>> option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements. >>>>>>>> My understanding is that the applications are contexts where >>>>>>>> overlays are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need >>>>>>>> to be interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be >>>>>>>> reasons to want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. In these >>>>>>>> context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would >>>>>>>> typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can >>>>>>>> it not >>> be all cases: >>>>>>>> TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to >>>>>>>> support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>>>>>> TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether >>>>>>>> you >>> prefer: >>>>>>>> (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the >>>>>>>> behavior specified in this draft) or >>>>>>>> (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to >>>>>>>> support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I >>>>>>>> don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see >>> my >>>>>>>> above comment. If the real use case is an application behind >>>>>>>> NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on >>>>>>>> NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the >>>>>>>> real driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP >>>>>>>> based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements >>>>>>>> can always help, I don't think one can assume a certain >>>>>>>> application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is >>>>>>>> not acceptable for the reasons explained: too much impact on >>>>>>>> the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the >>>>>>>> encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be >>>>>>>> supported on the >>> ToRs and vswitches. >>>>>>>> Another possibility would be >>>>>>>> service-label/middle-label/Ethernet >>>>>>>> assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but >>>>>>>> this certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or >>>>>>>> perhaps had you something else in mind ? WH> see above. The >>>>>>>> draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so >>>>>>>> for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it >>>>>>>> is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing >>>>>>>> vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination >>>>>>>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly >>>>>>>> another story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN >>>>>>>> dataplane nor support for any >>>>>>>> MPLS-over-IP.) >>>>>>>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> >>> and >>>>>>>> depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of the >>>>>>>> TOR/vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you >>>>>>>> may not need to change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for >>>>>>>> some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires >>>>>>>> changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion See above, >>>>>>>> the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in >>>>>>>> vswitches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite >>>>>>>> easily see how to implement the procedures in >>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>>>>> based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of >>>>>>>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to >>>>> me as >>>>>>>> making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. >>>>>>>> WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles >>>>>>>> multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and >>>>>>>> many do support a variable destination port for VXLAN, which is >>>>>>>> sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: >>>>>>>> Thomas Morin >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >> Organization: Orange Date: >>>>>>>> Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> lucent.com>>>>>>>> atel-lucent.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Cc: "bess@ietf.org >>>>>>> >" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the >>>>>>>> analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations >>>>>>>> that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may >>>>>>>> be hard to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as >>>>>>>> you suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would >>>>>>>> be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to >>>>>>>> me how the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C >>>>>>>> with an >>>>>>>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the >>>>> encap >>>>>>>> behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset >>>>>>>> possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even >>>>>>>> software-based switches may not be ready to support that today). >>>>>>>> My take is that having different options to adapt to various >>>>>>>> implementations constraints we may have would have value. (+ >>>>>>>> one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, >>>>>>>> Wim >>>>>>>> (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they >>>>>>>> would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced >>>>>>>> by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when >>>>>>>> needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and >>>>>>>> NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>> _____ >>>>> >>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >>>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre >>>>> diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu >>>>> ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le >>>>> detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques >>>>> etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline >>>>> toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou >>>>> falsifie. Merci >>>>> >>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or >>>>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should >>>>> not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. >>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender >>>>> and delete this message and its attachments. >>>>> As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be >>>>> liable if this message was modified, changed or falsified. >>>>> Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BESS mailing list >>>>> BESS@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> BESS mailing list >>>>> BESS@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> _____ >>> >>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, >>> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message >>> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi >>> que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles >>> d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si >>> ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci >>> >>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or >>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not >>> be distributed, used or copied without authorization. >>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender >>> and delete this message and its attachments. >>> As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable >>> if this message was modified, changed or falsified. >>> Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > From nobody Fri Nov 20 12:37:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30351B3D72 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:37:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cgdfd4SKjp41 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E83D1B3D70 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEJ95210; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:37:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.130) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:37:02 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:36:58 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: Martin Vigoureux , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRI3IOJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6jxQsAgAEtcoCAAIKQgIAAAU8AgAAC7oCAAAQmAP//tSIggACg1oD//37R8IAAjLmA//99+qA= Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:36:58 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B28C@dfweml701-chm> References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpCRVNTIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KQkVTU0BpZXRmLm9y Zw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iZXNzDQo= From nobody Fri Nov 20 15:34:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EA71B4040 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:34:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5fP4aH3AFsxi for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 899E41B4038 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id C516CD7E31B36; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:34:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAKNYcbq026659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:34:39 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.183]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:34:38 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" To: Lucy yong , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRIcnnUaQYRAA0kku8EyBXiqV5956hYQuAgAG7hoCAAEXCAIABLXOAgACCj4CAAAFPAIAAAu6AgAAEJgCAAAkCAP//lgEAgACNYAD//7Z4gA== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:34:37 +0000 Message-ID: <52BAA6B4-20CF-4120-A0AB-E69874B928F9@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> <22461_1448039044_564F5284_22461_15936_1_564F5283.3070301@orange.com> <9C29802C-77FD-4542-A02D-F020999AC60A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B256@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B256@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:34:47 -0000 QXMgeW91IHNhaWQsIEx1Y3ksICJ0aGF0IGlzIG15IDIgY2VudHMuIEFueW9uZSBjYW4gc2hhcmUg dGhlaXIgb3BpbmlvbuKAnSA6LSkNCg0KDQoNCg0KT24gMTEvMjAvMTUsIDExOjU3IEFNLCAiTHVj eSB5b25nIiA8bHVjeS55b25nQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+SU1ITzogdm90aW5nIG9u IHRoaXMgdGhyZWFkIGRvZXMgbm90IG1ha2UgYSBzZW5zZS4gQm90aCBzb2x1dGlvbnMgd2lsbCB3 b3JrIGFuZCBzY2FsZXMuDQo+DQo+THVjeSANCj4NCj4tLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0t LQ0KPkZyb206IFJhYmFkYW4sIEpvcmdlIChKb3JnZSkgW21haWx0bzpqb3JnZS5yYWJhZGFuQGFs Y2F0ZWwtbHVjZW50LmNvbV0gDQo+U2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMCwgMjAxNSAxOjMy IFBNDQo+VG86IFVUVEFSTywgSkFNRVM7IEpvaG4gRSBEcmFrZTsgRVhUIC0gdGhvbWFzLm1vcmlu 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from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F641B30A7 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:01:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pcA3j1hxaasZ for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02BF21B309A for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:01:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 7B5E9A70C0E0; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:01:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAL01I8o026991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 21 Nov 2015 01:01:18 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.183]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 01:01:18 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" To: Haoweiguo , "sajassi@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol Thread-Index: AQHRI+++hAE8JLFDy0CwLu06Rs9qSA== Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:01:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: 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(fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 612F81B3091 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.63]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 5299CDE80D02F for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:01:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.49]) by us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAL01hQW032358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:01:44 GMT Received: from [135.224.15.235] (135.5.27.16) by US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (135.5.2.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 19:01:42 -0500 Message-ID: <564FB45D.7050105@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 01:01:33 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bess@ietf.org" References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> <22461_1448039044_564F5284_22461_15936_1_564F5283.3070301@orange.com> <9C29802C-77FD-4542-A02D-F020999AC60A@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B256@dfweml701-chm> <564F7ED1.6090409@alcatel-lucent.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B28C@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B28C@dfweml701-chm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.5.27.16] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:01:52 -0000 Lucy, Thanks for your clarification. Yet, the fact that two solutions need not interwork does not render useless a debate on the merits of each. -m Le 20/11/2015 21:36, Lucy yong a écrit : > Martin, > > Sorry not to express my mind precisely. > > I mean to say, debating which solution is a better solution here does not make a sense. There is no need for the two solutions interwork. > > Regards, > Lucy > > -----Original Message----- > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 2:13 PM > To: bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc > > Lucy, > > there is no such thing as voting in IETF WGs And I haven't seen anything like voting as part of this discussion. > > Thank you > Martin > > Le 20/11/2015 20:57, Lucy yong a écrit : >> IMHO: voting on this thread does not make a sense. Both solutions will work and scales. >> >> Lucy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge) [mailto:jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 1:32 PM >> To: UTTARO, JAMES; John E Drake; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; Lucy >> yong; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >> >> IMHO if TOR chip vendors can confirm they are seriously looking at MPLS/MPLS/UDP, Wim’s suggestion makes all the sense since we know it works and scales. >> My 2 cents. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On 11/20/15, 9:51 AM, "BESS on behalf of UTTARO, JAMES" wrote: >> >>> +1 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John E Drake >>> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 12:19 PM >>> To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; Lucy yong; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); >>> bess@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>> >>> Lucy, >>> >>> My apologies, I misunderstood. >>> >>> I think we have to accept the fact that we will have to deal with a multiplicity of different encapsulations in the data plane along a packet's e2e path and that we should take a more measured approach to deciding how to deal with this in a general and extensible way before accepting any solutions. >>> >>> Yours Irrespectively, >>> >>> John >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: thomas.morin@orange.com [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 12:04 PM >>>> To: John E Drake; Lucy yong; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); bess@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>> >>>> 2015-11-20, John E Drake: >>>>> That presupposes that the group likes either of the two proposed >>>>> solutions >>>> in your draft. >>>> >>>> John, I think Lucy's "two solutions" was referring to >>>> draft-hao-bess-inter- nvo3-vpn-optionc solution and the 3-label >>>> Optionc MPLS/MPLS/UDP solution described by Wim. >>>> >>>> -Thomas >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 11:49 AM >>>>>> To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com; Henderickx, Wim (Wim); >>>>>> bess@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>>> >>>>>> Share my 2 cent. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cloud providers want to tunnel its customer traffic through DC (AS)BR. >>>>>> Option C is a way to realize it. Both solutions summarized by >>>>>> Thomas have no change on WAN VPN side and seamlessly work with WAN >>>>>> VPN >>>> option C. >>>>>> However, to support either solution, DC has to do some enhancement >>>>>> on DC BR or ToR switch, etc, which dictates to different >>>>>> implementations within a DC. Option C pro and con remains >>>>>> regardless what implementation is used in a DC. >>>>>> >>>>>> Two solutions should not coexist in one DC (does not make a >>>>>> sense), but it does not matter if one DC operator prefers to use >>>>>> one solution and another DC prefers to use another solution. Since >>>>>> there are many cloud providers today, it is worth for the WG to >>>>>> document both solutions and point out the implementation >>>>>> requirements on impacted components. Then, up to vendors and >>>>>> operators to select a solution for >>>> their DC. >>>>>> >>>>>> It does not make a sense for us to vote which solution is better >>>>>> here because a better solution for a DC depends on many factors. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Lucy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> thomas.morin@orange.com >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 3:02 AM >>>>>> To: Henderickx, Wim (Wim); bess@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>>> >>>>>> 2015-11-19, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>>>>> WH> I vote for a an evolution of switches/TORs that have proper >>>>>>> support for this. I hope some HW vendors of TOR chips shime in, >>>>>>> but I am told the MPLS solution is possible in the next >>>>>>> generation chips they are working on. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, it looks like the key questions are: >>>>>> - when would ToR chips support MPLS/MPLS/UDP ? (the generation >>>>>> that has been released recently but not present in most shipping >>>>>> ToRs yet, the next one ?) >>>>>> - do we want an interim VXLAN-based solution ? (that will involve >>>>>> at best a performance penalty with existing chips, and at worse >>>>>> impossible to implement -- we haven't seen clear information in >>>>>> this >>>>>> thread) >>>>>> >>>>>> -Thomas >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Zhuangshunwan : >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Diego, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for your comments. Pls see inline with [Vincent]. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Vincent >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *å‘件人:*BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Diego Garcia >>>>>> del Rio >>>>>>>>> *å‘é€æ—¶é—´:*2015å¹´11月18æ—¥14:25 *收件人:*bess@ietf.org *主题 >>>>>> :*Re: [bess] >>>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some comments from my side, I think the draft makes quite a few >>>>>>>>> assumptions on specific implementation details that are way too >>>>>>>>> general to be considered widely available. Most of the TOR >>>>>>>>> devices today already pay a double-pass penalty when doing >>>>>>>>> routing of traffic in/out of vxlan-type tunnels. Only the >>>>>>>>> newest generation can route into tunnels without additional >>>>>>>>> passes. And are definitively limited in being able to arbitrary >>>>>>>>> select UDP ports on a per tunnel basis. In fact, most are even >>>>>>>>> limited at using more than one VNID per "service" of sorts. >>>>>>>>> [Vincent]: Yes, the new generation BCM chipset has already >>>>>>>>> supported VXLAN routing >>>> without >>>>>>>>> additional passes. For OVS/TOR, VXLAN encapsulation is more >>>>>>>>> popular than MPLSoGRE/UDP, and has better performance. The >>>>>>>>> IP-addressed based implementation which would, I assume, imply >>>>>>>>> assigning one or more CIDRs to a loopback interface on the >>>>>>>>> ASBR-d is also quite arbitrary and does not seem like a >>>>>>>>> technically "clean" solution. (besides burning tons of IPs). As >>>>>>>>> a side-note, most PE-grade routers i've worked with were quite >>>>>>>>> limited in terms of IP addresses used for tunnel termination >>>>>>>>> and it wasn't that just a simple pool can be used. [Vincent]: I >>>>>>>>> think the larger VTEP IP address range on ASBR-d has no limitations. >>>>>>>>> For the hardware on ASBR-d, it has capability to terminate >>>>>>>>> multiple VXLAN tunnels with arbitrary destination VTEP IP >>>>>>>>> addresses. Wim's mentions on cases where the Application >>>>>>>>> itself, hosted in a datacenter, would be part of the option-C >>>>>>>>> interconnect, was dismissed without much discussion so far, >>>>>>>>> while, if we look in detail at the type of users which will >>>>>>>>> even consider a complex topology like model-C its most likely >>>>>>>>> users and operators very familiar with MPLS VPNs in the WAN. >>>>>>>>> Those type of operators will most likely be very interested in >>>>>>>>> deploying MPLS or WAN-grade applications (i.e., virtual-routers >>>>>>>>> or other >>>>>>>>> VNFs) in the DC and thus its highly likely that the >>>>>>>>> interconnect would not terminate at the NVE itself but rather >>>>>>>>> the TS (the virtual machine). Also, the use of UDP ports at >>>>>>>>> random would imply quite complex logic on the ASBR-d IMHO. Im >>>>>>>>> not saying its impossible, but since the received packet now >>>>>>>>> not only has to be received on a random (though locally chosen) >>>>>>>>> UDP port and this information preserved in the pipeline to be >>>>>>>>> able to do the double-tunnel-stitching, it sounds quite >>>>>>>>> complex. I am sure someone in the list will mention this has >>>>>>>>> already been implemented somewhere, and I won't argue with >>>>>>>>> that. And let's not even bring into account what this would do >>>>>>>>> to any DC middlebox that now has to look at vxlan over almost >>>>>>>>> any random port. We have to go back to the "is it a 4 or is it >>>>>>>>> a 6 in byte x" heuristics to try to guess whether the packet is >>>>>>>>> vxlan or just something entirely different running over IP. >>>>>>>>> [Vincent]: Using NP or multi-core CPU hardware technology, it >>>>>>>>> can be implemented although deeper packet inspection is needed >>>>>>>>> to perform UDP port and MPLS stitching. In general I feel the >>>>>>>>> proposed solution seems to be fitting of a specific use-case which is not really detailed >>>>>>>>> in the draft and does not describe a solution that would >>>>>>>>> "elegantly" solve the issues at hand. It just feels like we're >>>>>>>>> using any available bit-space to stuff data into places that do >>>>>>>>> not necesarily belong. Yes, MPLS encapsulations on virtual >>>>>>>>> switches are not yet fully available, and there can be some >>>>>>>>> performance penalty on the TORs, but the solutions are much >>>>>>>>> cleaner from a control and data plane point of view. Maybe I'm >>>>>>>>> too utopic. [Vincent]: I think pure VXLAN solution has its >>>>>>>>> scenario, it's general rather than specific. We can't require >>>>>>>>> all OVS/NVEs support VXLAN + MPLSoGRE at the same time. Best >>>>>>>>> regards, Diego >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> ------------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> The problem we are trying to solve is to reduce data center >>>>>>>>> GW/ASBR-d's forwarding table size, the motivation is same as >>>>>>>>> traditional MPLS VPN option-C. Currently, the most common >>>>>>>>> practise on ASBR-d is to terminate VXLAN encapsulation, look up >>>>>>>>> local routing table, and then perform MPLS encapsulation to the >>>>>>>>> WAN >>>> network. >>>>>>>>> ASBR-d needs to maintain all VM's MAC/IP. In Option-C method, >>>>>>>>> only transport layer information needed to be maintained at >>>>>>>>> GW/ASBR-d, the scalability will be greatly enhanced. Traditonal >>>>>>>>> Option-C is only for MPLS VPN network interworking, because >>>>>>>>> VXLAN is >>>> becoming >>>>>>>>> pervasive in data center, the solution in this draft was >>>>>>>>> proposed for the heterogeneous network interworking. The >>>>>>>>> advantage of this solution is that only VXLAN encapsulation is required for OVS/TOR. >>>>>>>>> Unlike Wim's solution, east-west bound traffic uses VXLAN >>>>>>>>> encap, while north-south bound traffic uses MPLSoGRE/UDP encap. >>>>>>>>> There >>>> are >>>>>>>>> two solutions in this draft: 1. Using VXLAN tunnel destination >>>>>>>>> IP for stitching at ASBR-d. No data plane modification >>>>>>>>> requirements on OVS or TOR switches, only hardware changes on >>>>>>>>> ASBR-d. ASBR-d normally is router, it has capability to realize >>>>>>>>> the hardware changes. It will consume many IP addresses and the >>>>>>>>> IP pool for allocation needs to be configured on ASBR-d >>>>>>>>> beforehand. 2. Using VXLAN destination UDP port for stitching >>>>>>>>> at ASBR-d. Compared with solution 1, less IP address will be >>>>>>>>> consumed for allocation. If UDP port range is too large, we can combine with solution 1 and 2. >>>>>>>>> In this solution, both data plane modification changes are >>>>>>>>> needed at OVS/TOR and ASBR-d. ASBR-d also has capability to >>>>>>>>> realize the hardware changes. For OVS, it also can realize the >>>>>>>>> data plane changes. For TOR switch, it normally can't realize this function. >>>>>>>>> This solution mainly focuses on pure software based overlay >>>>>>>>> network, it has more scalability. In public cloud data center, >>>>>>>>> software based overlay network is the majority case. Whether >>>>>>>>> using solution 1 or 2 depends on the operators real envionment. >>>>>>>>> So I think our solution has no flaws, it works fine. >>>>>>>>> Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BESS >>>>>>>>> [bess-bounces@ietf.org ] on >>>>>>>>> behalf of John E Drake [jdrake@juniper.net >>>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 To: Henderickx, Wim >>>> (Wim); >>>>>>>>> EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >>>> ; >>>>>> BESS >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi, I >>>>>>>>> think Wim has conclusively demonstrated that this draft has >>>>>>>>> fatal flaws and I don’t support it. I also agree with his >>>>>>>>> suggestion that we first figure out what problem we are trying >>>>>>>>> to solve before solving it. Yours Irrespectively, John From: >>>>>>>>> BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> ] On Behalf Of Henderickx, Wim >>>>>>>>> (Wim) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 >>>>>>>>> 12:49 PM To: EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >>>>>>>>> ; BESS Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc — Snip — No, the spec as >>>>>>>>> it is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing >>>>>>>>> vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination >>>>>>>>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly >>>>>>>>> another story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN >>>>>>>>> dataplane nor support for any >>>>>>>>> MPLS-over-IP.) WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they >>>>>>>>> support? For this to work every tenant needs a different VXLAN >>>>>>>>> UDP destination port/receive port. There might be SW elements >>>>>>>>> that could do some of this, but IETF defines solutions which >>>>>>>>> should be implemented across the board HW/SW/etc. >>>>>>>>> Even if some SW switches can do this, the proposal will impose >>>>>>>>> so many issues in HW/data-plane engines that I cannot be behind >>>>>>>>> this solution. To make this work generically we will have to >>>>>>>>> make changes anyhow. Given this, we better do it in the right >>>>>>>>> way and guide the industry to a solution which does not imply >>>>>>>>> those >>>> complexities. >>>>>>>>> Otherwise we will stick with these specials forever with all >>>>>>>>> consequences (bugs, etc). - snip - From: >>>>>>>>> "thomas.morin@orange.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >" >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> Organization: Orange Date: >>>>>>>>> Tuesday 17 November 2015 at 01:37 To: Wim Henderickx >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> lucent.com>>>>>>>>> atel-lucent.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>, BESS >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, WG, 2015-11-16, >>>>>>>>> Henderickx, Wim (Wim): 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>> Thomas, >>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> can discuss forever and someone need to describe requirements, >>>>>>>>> but the current proposal I cannot agree to for the reasons explained. >>>>>>>>> TM> Well, although discussing forever is certainly not the >>>>>>>>> TM> goal, the >>>>>>>>> reasons for rejecting a proposal need to be thoroughly understood. >>>>>>>>> WH> my point is what is the real driver for supporting a plain >>>>>>>>> WH> VXLAN >>>>>>>>> data-plane here, the use cases I have seen in this txt is >>>>>>>>> always where an application behind a NVE/TOR is demanding >>>>>>>>> option c, but none of the NVE/TOR elements. >>>>>>>>> My understanding is that the applications are contexts where >>>>>>>>> overlays are present is when workloads (VMs or baremetal) need >>>>>>>>> to be interconnected with VPNs. In these contexts, there can be >>>>>>>>> reasons to want Option C to reduce the state on ASBRs. In these >>>>>>>>> context, its not the workload (VM or baremetal) that would >>>>>>>>> typically handle VRFs, but really the vswitch or ToR. WH2> can >>>>>>>>> it not >>>> be all cases: >>>>>>>>> TOR/vswitch/Application. I would make the solution flexible to >>>>>>>>> support all of these not? 2015-11-13, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>>>>>>> TM> The right trade-off to make may in fact depend on whether >>>>>>>>> you >>>> prefer: >>>>>>>>> (a) a new dataplane stitching behavior on DC ASBRs (the >>>>>>>>> behavior specified in this draft) or >>>>>>>>> (b) an evolution of the encaps on the vswitches and ToRs to >>>>>>>>> support MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE) WH> b depends on the use case I >>>>>>>>> don't get what you mean by "b depends on the use case". WH> see >>>> my >>>>>>>>> above comment. If the real use case is an application behind >>>>>>>>> NVE/TOR requiring model C, than all the discussion on impact on >>>>>>>>> NVE/TOR is void. As such I want to have a discussion on the >>>>>>>>> real driver/requirement for option c interworking with an IP >>>>>>>>> based Fabric. Although I can agree than detailing requirements >>>>>>>>> can always help, I don't think one can assume a certain >>>>>>>>> application to dismiss the proposal. WH> for me the proposal is >>>>>>>>> not acceptable for the reasons explained: too much impact on >>>>>>>>> the data-planes I wrote the above based on the idea that the >>>>>>>>> encap used in MPLS/MPLS/(UDP or GRE), which hence has to be >>>>>>>>> supported on the >>>> ToRs and vswitches. >>>>>>>>> Another possibility would be >>>>>>>>> service-label/middle-label/Ethernet >>>>>>>>> assuming an L2 adjacency between vswitches/ToRs and ASBRs, but >>>>>>>>> this certainly does not match your typical DC architecture. Or >>>>>>>>> perhaps had you something else in mind ? WH> see above. The >>>>>>>>> draft right now also requires changes in existing TOR/NVE so >>>>>>>>> for me all this discussion/debate is void. No, the spec as it >>>>>>>>> is can be implemented in its VXLAN variant with existing >>>>>>>>> vswitches (e.g. OVS allows to choose the VXLAN destination >>>>>>>>> port, ditto for the linux kernel stack). (ToR is certainly >>>>>>>>> another story, most of them not having a flexible enough VXLAN >>>>>>>>> dataplane nor support for any >>>>>>>>> MPLS-over-IP.) >>>>>>>>> WH> and how many ports simultaneously would they support? WH> >>>> and >>>>>>>>> depending on implementation you don’t need to change any of the >>>>>>>>> TOR/vswitches. Does this mean that for some implementations you >>>>>>>>> may not need to change any of the TOR/vswitches, but that for >>>>>>>>> some others you may ? WH> any proposal on the table requires >>>>>>>>> changes, so for me this is not a valid discussion See above, >>>>>>>>> the proposal in the draft does not necessarily need changes in >>>>>>>>> vswitches. Let me take a practical example : while I can quite >>>>>>>>> easily see how to implement the procedures in >>>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc >>>>>>>>> based on current vswitch implementations of VXLAN, the lack of >>>>>>>>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP, GRE) support in commonplace vswitches seems to >>>>>> me as >>>>>>>>> making that alternate solution you suggest harder to implement. >>>>>>>>> WH> I would disagree to this. Tell me which switch/TOR handles >>>>>>>>> multiple UDP ports for VXLAN ? I mentioned _v_switches, and >>>>>>>>> many do support a variable destination port for VXLAN, which is >>>>>>>>> sufficient to implement what the draft proposes. -Thomas From: >>>>>>>>> Thomas Morin >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >> Organization: Orange Date: >>>>>>>>> Friday 13 November 2015 at 09:57 To: Wim Henderickx >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> lucent.com>>>>>>>>> atel-lucent.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Cc: "bess@ietf.org >>>>>>>> >" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [bess] >>>>>>>>> draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Hi Wim, I agree on the >>>>>>>>> analysis that this proposal is restricted to implementations >>>>>>>>> that supports the chosen encap with non-IANA ports (which may >>>>>>>>> be hard to achieve for instance on hardware implementations, as >>>>>>>>> you suggest), or to context where managing multiple IPs would >>>>>>>>> be operationally viable. However, it does not seem obvious to >>>>>>>>> me how the alternative you propose [relying on 3-label option C >>>>>>>>> with an >>>>>>>>> MPLS/MPLS/(UDP|GRE) encap] addresses the issue of whether the >>>>>> encap >>>>>>>>> behavior is supported or not (e.g. your typical ToR chipset >>>>>>>>> possibly may not support this kind of encap, and even >>>>>>>>> software-based switches may not be ready to support that today). >>>>>>>>> My take is that having different options to adapt to various >>>>>>>>> implementations constraints we may have would have value. (+ >>>>>>>>> one question below on VXLAN...) -Thomas 2015-11-12, Henderickx, >>>>>>>>> Wim >>>>>>>>> (Wim): On VXLAN/NVGRE, do you challenge the fact that they >>>>>>>>> would be used with a dummy MAC address that would be replaced >>>>>>>>> by the right MAC by a sender based on an ARP request when >>>>>>>>> needed ? Is the above the issue you had in mind about VXLAN and >>>>>>>>> NVGRE ? WH> yes I you don't mind me asking : why do you challenge that ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>> _____ >>>>>> >>>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >>>>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre >>>>>> diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu >>>>>> ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le >>>>>> detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques >>>>>> etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline >>>>>> toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou >>>>>> falsifie. Merci >>>>>> >>>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or >>>>>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should >>>>>> not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. >>>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender >>>>>> and delete this message and its attachments. >>>>>> As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be >>>>>> liable if this message was modified, changed or falsified. >>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BESS mailing list >>>>>> BESS@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BESS mailing list >>>>>> BESS@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre >>>> diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu >>>> ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le >>>> detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques >>>> etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline >>>> toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou >>>> falsifie. Merci >>>> >>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or >>>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not >>>> be distributed, used or copied without authorization. >>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender >>>> and delete this message and its attachments. >>>> As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be >>>> liable if this message was modified, changed or falsified. >>>> Thank you. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BESS mailing list >>> BESS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BESS mailing list >>> BESS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > From nobody Fri Nov 20 16:29:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB1F1B3522 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:29:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UseaxzGjCxqB for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5CF51B3520 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.65]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 22799B6CC5FCE for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:29:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70uwxchhub02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.49]) by us70uusmtp3.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAL0TP15028897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:29:25 GMT Received: from [135.224.15.235] (135.5.27.18) by US70UWXCHHUB02.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (135.5.2.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 19:29:24 -0500 Message-ID: <564FBAE2.1060909@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 01:29:22 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <561D09B4.6040800@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <561D09B4.6040800@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.5.27.18] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-bess-multicast-damping-01 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:29:30 -0000 WG This WG LC has ended some time ago but without any comment on the draft. It might not have any flaw but I'd like to have the evidence that the document has been reviewed. Please take a moment to read it and get back to this list to share your views. Thanks -m Le 13/10/2015 15:40, Martin Vigoureux a écrit : > Hello Working Group, > > This email starts a Working Group Last Call on > draft-ietf-bess-multicast-damping-01 [1] which is considered mature and > ready for a final working group review. > > Please read the document if you haven't read the most recent > version yet, and send your comments to the list, no later than > *27th of October*. > > *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that > applies to draft-ietf-bess-multicast-damping, to ensure that IPR has > been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, > 3669 and 5378 for more details). > > *If* you are listed as a document author or contributor of > draft-ietf-bess-multicast-damping-01 please respond to this email and > indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. > > Thank you, > M&T > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-multicast-damping-01 > > _______________________________________________ > BESS 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with ESMTPS id 4BD461A7032 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 22:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAP75486; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:21:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.37) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:21:23 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 14:21:13 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , "UTTARO, JAMES" , John E Drake , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , Lucy yong , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: AQHRIcnnJGngb/4i3EuknzuoW5FiTp6hcc6AgAG7hoCAAEXDAIABLXKAgACCkICAAAC0wP//fWyAgAAEJwCAAAkBAIAAHB+AgAE4zYs= Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:21:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858A97DF65E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <564DAA0B.7050707@orange.com> <8458_1448010096_564EE170_8458_13965_3_564EE16F.2010902@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> <22461_1448039044_564F5284_22461_15936_1_564F5283.3070301@orange.com> , <9C29802C-77FD-4542-A02D-F020999AC60A@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <9C29802C-77FD-4542-A02D-F020999AC60A@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.56500D67.0016, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 931e9d747ab0bac78ef58d19d1933a01 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:21:36 -0000 Sm9yZ2UsDQpXZSBhbGwga25vdyB0aGF0IFdpbSdzIE1QTFMvTVBMUy9VRFAgc29sdXRpb24gd29y a3MsIGJ1dCBpdCdzIG5vdCB0aGUgb25seSBjaG9pY2UuIFdpbSdzIHNvbHV0aW9uIHJlcXVpcmVz IE1QTFNvR1JFL1VEUCBlbmNhcCBpbiBkYXRhIGNlbnRlciwgYnV0IG1hbnkgZGF0YSBjZW50ZXJz IG9ubHkgdXNlIFZYTEFOL05WR1JFIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gZm9yIGJvdGggbm9ydGgtc291dGgg YW5kIGVhc3Qtd2VzdCBib3VuZCB0cmFmZmljLCBob3cgdG8gaW50ZXJjb25uZWN0IHdpdGggb3V0 c2lkZSBNUExTIFZQTiBuZXR3b3JrIGZvciB0aGVzZSBkYXRhIGNlbnRlcnM/IFNvIFZYTEFOL05W R1JFIGFuZCBNUExTIFZQTiBuZXR3b3JrIGludGVyd29ya2luZyBpcyBuZWVkZWQuDQpBbmQgZm9y IHRoZSBpbnRlcmNvbm5lY3Rpb24gc29sdXRpb24sIHdlIHN1Z2dlc3QgYm90aCBubyBUT1IvTlZF 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bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iZXNzDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KQkVTUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkJFU1NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmVzcw== From nobody Fri Nov 20 23:12:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A3D1A92AC for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:12:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kLlJHLlrLsZD for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D63591A9127 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAP78115; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 07:12:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 07:12:25 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.181]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:12:17 +0800 From: Zhuangshunwan To: Haoweiguo , "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , "UTTARO, JAMES" , "John E Drake" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , Lucy yong , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc Thread-Index: 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refid=str=0001.0A020203.5650195C.000F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.7.181, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 948f324314e8676b5d30c3dcbc0e54d1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 07:12:37 -0000 KzENCg0KTW9yZSBwb3B1bGFyIGRlcGxveW1lbnRzIGluIGRhdGEgY2VudGVyIGlzIFZYTEFOL05W R1JFLCBzbyB0aGUgVlhMQU4vTlZHUkUgYW5kIE1QTFMgVlBOIG5ldHdvcmsgaW50ZXJjb25uZWN0 aW5nIGlzIG5lY2Vzc2FyeS4gSWYgYWxsIFRPUi9OVkVzIHN1cHBvcnQgTVBMU29HUkUvb1VEUCwg V2ltJ3Mgc29sdXRpb24gYWxzbyBjYW4gYmUgdXNlZCwgYnV0IGN1cnJlbnRseSBpdCdzIG5vdCBw cmFjdGljYWwgdG8gcmVxdWlyZSBhbGwgVE9SL05WRXMgdG8gc3VwcG9ydCBNUExTL01QTFMvVURQ 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<2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D5721B124@dfweml701-chm> <22461_1448039044_564F5284_22461_15936_1_564F5283.3070301@orange.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.56501AAE.0128, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: ceb60f37a8fd0834926d760c5c14f917 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 07:18:14 -0000 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cyBlbWFpbHMgbWF5IGJlIGFsdGVyZWQsIEZyYW5jZSBUZWxlY29tIC0gT3JhbmdlIHNoYWxsIG5v dCBiZSBsaWFibGUgaWYgdGhpcw0KPiBtZXNzYWdlIHdhcyBtb2RpZmllZCwgY2hhbmdlZCBvciBm YWxzaWZpZWQuDQo+IFRoYW5rIHlvdS4NCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkJFU1MgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpCRVNTQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Jlc3MNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpCRVNTIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KQkVTU0Bp ZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iZXNz From nobody Sat Nov 21 01:47:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782741B4199 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 01:47:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, 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In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151008 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <80E41A2BB6E814428166C12A7A3E1A3B@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 09:47:11 -0000 SXQgYWxzbyB3b3JrcyB3aXRoIFZYTEFOL0dQRSBidHcuIE9uIHRvcCB0aGUgc29sdXRpb24gSSBv dXRsaW5lZCBpcyBmdXR1cmUgcHJvb2YgYXMgd2VsbC4NCg0KVGhlIGtleSBxdWVzdGlvbiBpcyBk byBwZW9wbGUgd2FudCBhIG5hdGl2ZSBWWExBTi9OVkdSRSBzb2x1dGlvbiBpbiB0aGUgREMgdXNp bmcgZXhpc3RpbmcgVE9SIEhXIGFuZC9vciB2d2l0Y2hlcy4gVGhpcyB3aWxsIGltcGx5IGRlYWxp 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dA0KPj5CRVNTQGlldGYub3JnDQo+Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vYmVzcw0KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f DQo+QkVTUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5CRVNTQGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iZXNzDQo= From nobody Sat Nov 21 06:52:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0561AC44C for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:52:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gfHKO1xwfAkU for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 06:52:33 -0800 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Nov 2015 14:52:29.4627 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR0501MB1709 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] draft-hao-bess-inter-nvo3-vpn-optionc X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 14:52:38 -0000 V2VpZ3VvLA0KDQpDb21tZW50IGlubGluZS4NCg0KWW91cnMgSXJyZXNwZWN0aXZlbHksDQoNCkpv aG4NCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBCRVNTIFttYWlsdG86 YmVzcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgSGFvd2VpZ3VvDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFNh dHVyZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMSwgMjAxNSAyOjE4IEFNDQo+IFRvOiBVVFRBUk8sIEpBTUVTOyBK 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.131 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28=1.404, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LNoLTgYku7s6 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 22:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (f4mail-235-118.rediffmail.com [202.137.235.118]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E52831A1AFB for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 22:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4892 invoked by uid 510); 22 Nov 2015 06:21:13 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=redf; d=rediffmail.com; b=tPsnEE0V8ki3OR2hwQ8xk5SQzogxHVTo3ZsvSs8eIf2raWEfqpkjInIlC9cFoiZwUHYoD+knqbeXe11HWi4El2R2bj9ePNXyvcJsCJMHRJeUBIdDb5WMD8jNG9wlork7fyQKEi6Hq3LNJfiW6ssrQz7iH3xZ/GM284o4/s0Vlgw= ; x-m-msg: asd54ad564ad7aa6sd5as6d5; a6da7d6asas6dasd77; 5dad65ad5sd; X-OUT-VDRT-SpamState: 0\LEGIT X-OUT-VDRT-SpamScore: 20 X-OUT-VDRT-SpamCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekhedrieejgddvfeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucdhkfhnvhhishhisghlvgcufihorhgushculddvtddmnecujfgurhepfffkggfvshfuhfgtsegrtddvredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfshhuuggvvghpuchguchgghhgfdcuoehsuhguhhhinhhjrggtohgssehrvgguihhffhhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrvgguihhffhdrtghomhenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuth X-Remote-IP: 43.224.156.138 X-REDF-OSEN: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com Date: 22 Nov 2015 06:21:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20151122062113.4874.qmail@f4mail-235-118.rediffmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Received: from unknown 43.224.156.138 by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 22 Nov 2015 06:21:13 -0000 X-Senderscore: D=0&S=0 Sender: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com From: "sudeep g ggg" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_85ae49679b472e985a5422fc7d339788" Archived-At: Subject: [bess] =?utf-8?q?REG=3A_draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02?= X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 06:21:20 -0000 --=_85ae49679b472e985a5422fc7d339788 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Respected Authors, I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly appreciating. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. 2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window). As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp update received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care. Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc. May I know about your views in above cases. Regards, Sudhin --=_85ae49679b472e985a5422fc7d339788 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Respected Authors,

I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct = me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly apprecia= ting.

1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.
2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window).

As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And= for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp upda= te received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care.
Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem= for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc.

May I know about your views in above cases.

Regards,
Sudhin


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--=_85ae49679b472e985a5422fc7d339788-- From nobody Sun Nov 22 07:50:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406531A90E6; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:50:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p02xM77YTCPo; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am1on0737.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe00::737]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30E3A1A90DD; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from DB4PR03MB0847.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.161.15.150) by DB4PR03MB0781.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.161.14.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:50:08 +0000 Received: from DB4PR03MB0847.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.161.15.150]) by DB4PR03MB0847.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.161.15.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0325.019; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:50:08 +0000 From: Rotem Cohen To: "hshah@ciena.com" , "draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Question on draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang-00 Thread-Index: AdElOev1/MGHOd89S46PFpdLQfWqrg== Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:50:08 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com; x-originating-ip: [147.234.241.1] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB4PR03MB0781; 5:U74V5/xOOZB0Y4WRBoRmH6nKAd3hsxvGCW4hUHE+p1SraxUf75aQm3t2sPIrKhTDJCsVK1irmJcun3jc1MQhLpcXTraVHUo4JuWmI22Y8NB2bLxqjVXgouK7x1DSCEyTeQgZWBYt1nepGFmzWXf59g==; 24:ZiJ1PUPsjrdG2bAnCZPn6DRPICWZ+7+MOT4ZyQNzTYNarJgDs3GhPvRJLsQyII+3b7qdOjgQxp+dt+o/O/yzZ6Iwg0kpsDr6ZEIc86qgjwY=; 20:0ouLImz0MpGE6SDT3hrx8rCo7Y8WmynQTBGe6okW7iObHDdP7bBVdwIXKHtsj9UvjqBY6U1Szmp4xTJQMMxEUg== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DB4PR03MB0781; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(279101305709854)(108003899814671); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(520078)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:DB4PR03MB0781; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB4PR03MB0781; x-forefront-prvs: 076804FE30 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(189002)(199003)(81156007)(54356999)(19627595001)(101416001)(5004730100002)(189998001)(40100003)(33656002)(5007970100001)(19580405001)(586003)(92566002)(87936001)(76576001)(50986999)(19300405004)(86362001)(77096005)(66066001)(5001770100001)(790700001)(105586002)(102836003)(6116002)(5001920100001)(3846002)(230783001)(99936001)(122556002)(18206015028)(2501003)(97736004)(11100500001)(10400500002)(19625215002)(19617315012)(15975445007)(5001960100002)(19580395003)(5002640100001)(106356001)(74316001)(229853001)(19609705001)(5003600100002)(5008740100001)(17760045003)(16236675004)(2900100001)(7099028); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DB4PR03MB0781; H:DB4PR03MB0847.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ecitele.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_DB4PR03MB08477DE0F5648C5BD7B0FF23E2180DB4PR03MB0847eurp_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ecitele.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Nov 2015 15:50:08.5892 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2c514a61-08de-4519-b4c0-921fef62c42a X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB4PR03MB0781 Archived-At: Cc: Alexander Vainshtein , "bess@ietf.org" , Evyatar Wiesel Subject: [bess] Question on draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:50:33 -0000 --_004_DB4PR03MB08477DE0F5648C5BD7B0FF23E2180DB4PR03MB0847eurp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB4PR03MB08477DE0F5648C5BD7B0FF23E2180DB4PR03MB0847eurp_" --_000_DB4PR03MB08477DE0F5648C5BD7B0FF23E2180DB4PR03MB0847eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Himanshu, et al. Can you explain please why for VPWS the leaves 'discovery-type' and 'signal= ing-type' appear directly below 'vpws-instance/' while for VPLS they appear= below 'vpls-instance/pw/'? It looks that 'signaling-type' should be under '../pw/' hierarchy for both = vpls-instance and vpws-instance. The 'discovery-type' leaf should be configured at the service-instance leve= l with status to indicate that the instance advertises itself (configuratio= n) and at the PW level as an indication that this specific PW has been set = up due to auto-discovery vs. manual peer configuration. 'discovery' and 'signaling' containers under 'bgp-parameters' container hav= e references to '../../discovery-type' and to '../../signaling-type' respec= tively. Because the referenced leaves are on a different levels of the tree= for vpws-instance and vpls-instance it causes compilation error. Regards, Rotem Cohen PTS System Architecture Group Manager T: +972.3.926.8247 M: +972.54.926.8247 E: Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com www.ecitele.com [cid:image002.png@01D1254E.38D36570] --_000_DB4PR03MB08477DE0F5648C5BD7B0FF23E2180DB4PR03MB0847eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Himanshu, et al.

 

Can you explain please why for VPWS the leaves 'disc= overy-type' and 'signaling-type' appear directly below 'vpws-instance/' whi= le for VPLS they appear below 'vpls-instance/pw/'?

 

It looks that 'signaling-type' should be under '../p= w/' hierarchy for both vpls-instance and vpws-instance.

The 'discovery-type' leaf should be configured at th= e service-instance level with status to indicate that the instance advertis= es itself (configuration) and at the PW level as an indication that this sp= ecific PW has been set up due to auto-discovery vs. manual peer configuration.

 

'discovery' and 'signaling' containers under 'bgp-pa= rameters' container have references to '../../discovery-type' and to '../..= /signaling-type' respectively. Because the referenced leaves are on a diffe= rent levels of the tree for vpws-instance and vpls-instance it causes compilation error.

 

Regards,

 

Rotem Cohen=

PTS System Architecture Group Manager<= /b>

T:

+972.3.926.8247

M:

+972.54.926.8247

E:

Rot= em.Cohen@ecitele.com

 

www.ecitele.com<= /b>

<= /b>

 

 

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pQ/GJ/+ohOPN43Dn23DtPVx7FYDdhN/TJ7/90zN4mtvlaebA/wIHYhq8vhA2RAAAAABJRU5ErkJg gg== --_004_DB4PR03MB08477DE0F5648C5BD7B0FF23E2180DB4PR03MB0847eurp_-- From nobody Mon Nov 23 14:49:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F391ACE9F for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:49:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JyTC0HnCjPd9 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6AAB1ACE9B for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:49:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9573; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448318953; x=1449528553; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=DbFa4UAMYPedQzDuqxezyhgEUwLmjk/9FVTZRBoLEXY=; b=lErMbXywIOAskWfgZbQY0yufENnYBMq/8HpK1Mz2Gvet9aNXEJFCbZBg mSn0+GcpBDPuHP1v13BUcNOsICOAU/Hv+u0MpnjJ6svkt9Qw4h5yZYfjW xQxofudlJzZoybwLOxQV4gsSIbd07ZyFMIm6PztU4J2oBsO3Aw7c8HTYv k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D9AQAEl1NW/49dJa1egm5NU28GvH6CG?= =?us-ascii?q?gENgWUhhW4CgUk4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBBG0MEAIBCBEDAQIoBzIUCQgCBAE?= =?us-ascii?q?NBQmIJQ2/JgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARiLUoQ7AQEtEYQ+BY1XhRSDZ?= =?us-ascii?q?QGNMJxKAR8BAUKEBHIBg2k6gQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,338,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="49454910" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Nov 2015 22:49:12 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (xch-rtp-001.cisco.com [64.101.220.141]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tANMnCCK005162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:49:12 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (64.101.220.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:49:11 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:49:11 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" , Haoweiguo Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol Thread-Index: AQHRI+++hAE8JLFDy0CwLu06Rs9qSJ6qCCgA Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:49:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.76.53] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D278D501161856sajassiciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:49:16 -0000 --_000_D278D501161856sajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Weiguo, Section 10 of RFC 7432 covers this topic nicely. As Jorge alluded to, wheth= er a PE only sends a single Route-Type-2 or two of them, depends on whether= the MAC learning is done in control-plane/management-plane or it is done i= n data-plane. If it is the former, then only a single Route-Type-2 is sent = and if it is the latter, then two are sent. Cheers, Ali From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 9:01 AM To: Haoweiguo >, Cisco Em= ployee > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base proto= col Hi Weiguo, I would recommend you to check out the L2VPN archives... we discussed this = at length. For instance: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/msg04519.html But check the other emails in the thread. Sending one or two routes, really depend on how the learning is done. Hope it helps. Thanks. Jorge From: BESS > on behalf = of Haoweiguo > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 1:37 AM To: "sajassi@cisco.com" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol Hi Co-authors, Through ARP process, each EVPN PE can learn local connecting CE's MAC and I= P correspondence, and will notify the MAC and IP association to all remote = PEs through Route-type2 message. Theoretically, each remote PE can rely on = the single route-type2 message to populate local Mac VRF(MAC table) , ARP C= ache and IP VRF(IP routing table) at the same time. However, some vendor do= esn't do in this way. In its implementation, each PE will notify two route-= type2 message to remote PEs, one message(say message 1) only carry MAC info= rmation(IP field is invalid), another message(say message 2) carry MAC and = IP association information. The remote PEs rely on message 1 to populate lo= cal MAC VRF, and rely on message 2 to populate local ARP Cache and IP VRF. I think EVPN protocol should give a clear suggestion for route type-2 messa= ge usage, what's the scenario to announce only one message and what's scena= rio to announce two messages? Thanks, weiguo --_000_D278D501161856sajassiciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <07929D0B83888A40BD8FF2FC1DC4DB2B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Weiguo,

Section 10 of RFC 7432 covers this topic nicely. As Jorge alluded to, = whether a PE only sends a single Route-Type-2 or two of them, depends on wh= ether the MAC learning is done in control-plane/management-plane or it is d= one in data-plane. If it is the former, then only a single Route-Type-2 is sent and if it is the latter, t= hen two are sent. 

Cheers,
Ali 

From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)&= quot; <jorge.rabadan= @alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Saturday, November 21, 2015 a= t 9:01 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>, Cisco Employee <sajassi@cisco.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] One question ab= out Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol

 --_000_D278D501161856sajassiciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Nov 23 18:50:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68EDD1B2C86; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:50:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lm9W6LRSfcxN; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 003CE1B2C8D; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:50:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=23668; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448333406; x=1449543006; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=rJ/USOdFmMPUlwfQl77xrcdfrcKblAkISwlu9lLm3zI=; b=jPhylM/3836GALyq0MqOv9UdGR36yCvKbXUBrjIEH0ommRF37qc52p3J 1nsIS8O06cHgKhKeMpSiyf4CkoOEKaRnHyiykXofky7WgobfCaLx0CC6K ju5VvmQ7O5aMcvC1R7f7KVgZDr8pIIWAaphfdny/e8z5M6YYwztLnI/uz I=; X-Files: image002.png : 4903 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C9AgAq0FNW/5tdJa1bA4JuTVNvBr8eD?= =?us-ascii?q?oFlI4VsAoE+OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQFAR8IATgDAQ8OAgIBCAcKAQIBAgY?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEfBwIVAQMLDBQDBggCBAENBAEGCIggDbARjmkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEPCQSBEIVAhH6EKhEBGgoBBQIJCgEVAgIECYJmgTEFjVeIeQGCWIFhAWm?= =?us-ascii?q?IDYFbSYN3hzWLCYNxAR8BQ4IRHYFWcgGDYgcXI4EHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,338,1444694400"; d="png'150?scan'150,208,217,150";a="53091954" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Nov 2015 02:49:47 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (xch-rtp-008.cisco.com [64.101.220.148]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAO2nkJ4021080 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:49:46 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-009.cisco.com (64.101.220.149) by XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (64.101.220.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:49:46 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-009.cisco.com ([64.101.220.149]) by XCH-RTP-009.cisco.com ([64.101.220.149]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:49:46 -0500 From: "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" To: Rotem Cohen , "hshah@ciena.com" , "draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Question on draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang-00 Thread-Index: AQHRJmLHCkZawy7VbE+6J5U7qXHaaw== Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:49:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.246.194] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_D2793A537AAA1pbrissetciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Alexander Vainshtein , "bess@ietf.org" , Evyatar Wiesel Subject: Re: [bess] Question on draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang-00 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:50:09 -0000 --_004_D2793A537AAA1pbrissetciscocom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D2793A537AAA1pbrissetciscocom_" --_000_D2793A537AAA1pbrissetciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rotem, I agree with your statement. I'll bring this up in our weekly meeting and g= et back to you on Thursday. Regards, Patrice [http://www.cisco.com/web/europe/images/email/signature/est2014/logo_06.= png?ct=3D1406640631632] Patrice Brissette TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING pbrisset@cisco.com Phone: +1 613 254 3336 Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada Cisco.com [http://www.cisco.com/assets/swa/img/thinkbeforeyouprint.gif] Think before = you print. This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole us= e of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by= others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or a= uthorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply= email and delete all copies of this message. Please click here for Company Registration Information. From: Rotem Cohen > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 10:50 AM To: "hshah@ciena.com" >, "draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang@ietf.org" > Cc: Alexander Vainshtein >, Evyatar Wiesel >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Question on draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang-00 Hi Himanshu, et al. Can you explain please why for VPWS the leaves 'discovery-type' and 'signal= ing-type' appear directly below 'vpws-instance/' while for VPLS they appear= below 'vpls-instance/pw/'? It looks that 'signaling-type' should be under '../pw/' hierarchy for both = vpls-instance and vpws-instance. The 'discovery-type' leaf should be configured at the service-instance leve= l with status to indicate that the instance advertises itself (configuratio= n) and at the PW level as an indication that this specific PW has been set = up due to auto-discovery vs. manual peer configuration. 'discovery' and 'signaling' containers under 'bgp-parameters' container hav= e references to '../../discovery-type' and to '../../signaling-type' respec= tively. Because the referenced leaves are on a different levels of the tree= for vpws-instance and vpls-instance it causes compilation error. Regards, Rotem Cohen PTS System Architecture Group Manager T: +972.3.926.8247 M: +972.54.926.8247 E: Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com www.ecitele.com [cid:image002.png@01D1254E.38D36570] --_000_D2793A537AAA1pbrissetciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <26B6ABD5134F814E9A5F2A73B37024B2@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rotem,

I agree with your statement. I’ll bring this up in our weekly me= eting and get back to you on Thursday.

Regards,

Patrice

   

Patrice Brissette
TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING

pbrisset@cisco.com
Phone: +1 613 254 3336

Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada
Cisco.com
Think before you print.

This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole= use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure= by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (o= r authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies= of this message.

Please click here for Company Registration Information.


From: Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at = 10:50 AM
To: "hshah@ciena.com" <= hshah@ciena.com>, "draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang@ietf.org" <draft-shah-bess-l2vpn-yang@ietf.or= g>
Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.= com>, Evyatar Wiesel <Evyatar.Wiesel@ecitele.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Question on draft-shah-bes= s-l2vpn-yang-00

Hi Himanshu, et al.

 

Can you explain please why for VPWS the leaves 'disc= overy-type' and 'signaling-type' appear directly below 'vpws-instance/' whi= le for VPLS they appear below 'vpls-instance/pw/'?

 

It looks that 'signaling-type' should be under '../p= w/' hierarchy for both vpls-instance and vpws-instance.

The 'discovery-type' leaf should be configured at th= e service-instance level with status to indicate that the instance advertis= es itself (configuration) and at the PW level as an indication that this sp= ecific PW has been set up due to auto-discovery vs. manual peer configuration.

 

'discovery' and 'signaling' containers under 'bgp-pa= rameters' container have references to '../../discovery-type' and to '../..= /signaling-type' respectively. Because the referenced leaves are on a diffe= rent levels of the tree for vpws-instance and vpls-instance it causes compilation error.

 

Regards,

 

Rotem Cohen

PTS System Architecture Group Manager

T:

+972.3.926.8247

M:

+972.54.926.8247

E:

Rot= em.Cohen@ecitele.com

 

www.ecitele.com

 

 

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gg== --_004_D2793A537AAA1pbrissetciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Nov 23 18:53:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA081B34A1 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:53:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id faPEUbsI2ucB for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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E=Sophos; i="5.20,338,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="47500025" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Nov 2015 02:53:22 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (xch-rtp-007.cisco.com [64.101.220.147]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAO2rMWK015227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:53:22 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-009.cisco.com (64.101.220.149) by XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (64.101.220.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:53:21 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-009.cisco.com ([64.101.220.149]) by XCH-RTP-009.cisco.com ([64.101.220.149]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:53:21 -0500 From: "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" To: sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJmNHWUYzTHAsW0yuHT46srNA8w== Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:53:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151122062113.4874.qmail@f4mail-235-118.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20151122062113.4874.qmail@f4mail-235-118.rediffmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.246.194] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D2793AA47AAAFpbrissetciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:53:25 -0000 --_000_D2793AA47AAAFpbrissetciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sudeep, Why do you think there will be a loop? Per ES EAD route carry ESI-mpls extc= omm which has a split-horizon label to avoid such problem. I think also it = depends on how your configure your router (in what order). In the case of PBB-EVPN, it is taken care by the nature of PBB. Regards, Patrice [http://www.cisco.com/web/europe/images/email/signature/est2014/logo_06.= png?ct=3D1406640631632] Patrice Brissette TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING pbrisset@cisco.com Phone: +1 613 254 3336 Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada Cisco.com [http://www.cisco.com/assets/swa/img/thinkbeforeyouprint.gif] Think before = you print. This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole us= e of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by= others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or a= uthorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply= email and delete all copies of this message. Please click here for Company Registration Information. From: BESS > on behalf = of sudeep g ggg > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 1:21 AM To: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Respected Authors, I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct = me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly apprecia= ting. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. 2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window). As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And= for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp upda= te received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care. Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem= for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc. May I know about your views in above cases. Regards, Sudhin [https://sigads.rediff.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_nx.ads/www.rediffmail.com= /signatureline.htm@Middle] Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email= . Know More > --_000_D2793AA47AAAFpbrissetciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sudeep,

Why do you think there will be a loop? Per ES EAD route carry ESI-mpls= extcomm which has a split-horizon label to avoid such problem. I think als= o it depends on how your configure your router (in what order).
In the case of PBB-EVPN, it is taken care by the nature of PBB.



Regards,

Patrice

   

Patrice Brissette
TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING

pbrisset@cisco.com
Phone: +1 613 254 3336

Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada
Cisco.com
Think before you print.

This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole= use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure= by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (o= r authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies= of this message.

Please click here for Company Registration Information.


From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of sudeep g gg= g <sudhinjacob@rediffmail.= com>
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at = 1:21 AM
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-= bess-evpn-df-election-02

Respected Authors,

I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct = me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly apprecia= ting.

1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.
2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window).

As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And= for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp upda= te received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care.
Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem= for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc.

May I know about your views in above cases.

Regards,
Sudhin
Ge= t your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email.  
 Know More >
--_000_D2793AA47AAAFpbrissetciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Nov 23 19:25:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457A71B35AA for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:25:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5YjJKNU94IeO for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3A051B35A8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 19:25:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=16765; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448335511; x=1449545111; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=0S/Cy2zcQur4u+SDrRd8jaBuz2UryjzKqwXiyr7djD8=; b=TXCMk7wFRUWpOHsE2RDsxRQYcey5j9v/2EGH9gvT7hUFuP1HR1TOhlGV mN8HtUcydOECVxkXqCdzfbyZUpC9Hyn9HPQ9/+gKNZm5+X8CrLqNuvnGt LPPg3YrXUNn5XU0JgLeiGnIYWAL1LVLO2iZ6LujA8c9cuP3Pd+GR9cbop c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AnBQB311NW/5ldJa1bA4JuTVNvBsETF?= =?us-ascii?q?wENFoVUAoE+PBABAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQtOQMBHQICAQgRAwECKAcbFxQJCAI?= =?us-ascii?q?EARKIGQMSDbAMiXAbhF8BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYBIEQhUCEfoJTg?= =?us-ascii?q?VcRASQGFQEMCRGCGU2BMQWWUAGFI4JyhRuBW0mDd4c1hiaEY4NxAREnK4IQHoF?= =?us-ascii?q?WcgEBAQGDXwcXI4EHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,338,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="52448462" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Nov 2015 03:25:10 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (xch-rtp-008.cisco.com [64.101.220.148]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAO3PASY005497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 03:25:10 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) by XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (64.101.220.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:25:09 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-012.cisco.com ([64.101.220.152]) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com ([64.101.220.152]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 22:25:09 -0500 From: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" To: "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" , sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJO4HQBjalxTl0kqU/yKw1B0cn56q0ISA//+CxIA= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 03:25:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151122062113.4874.qmail@f4mail-235-118.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.32.170.140] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D27911B542813satyamohciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 03:25:14 -0000 --_000_D27911B542813satyamohciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sudeep, Please see inline [Satya]. Patrice, thanks for your observation. From: BESS > on behalf = of "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" > Date: Monday, November 23, 2015 6:53 PM To: sudeep g ggg >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Sudeep, Why do you think there will be a loop? Per ES EAD route carry ESI-mpls extc= omm which has a split-horizon label to avoid such problem. I think also it = depends on how your configure your router (in what order). In the case of PBB-EVPN, it is taken care by the nature of PBB. Regards, Patrice [http://www.cisco.com/web/europe/images/email/signature/est2014/logo_06.= png?ct=3D1406640631632] Patrice Brissette TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING pbrisset@cisco.com Phone: +1 613 254 3336 Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada Cisco.com [http://www.cisco.com/assets/swa/img/thinkbeforeyouprint.gif] Think before = you print. This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole us= e of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by= others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or a= uthorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply= email and delete all copies of this message. Please click here for Company Registration Information. From: BESS > on behalf = of sudeep g ggg > Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 1:21 AM To: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Respected Authors, I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct = me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly apprecia= ting. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not exp= licitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depe= nds on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establis= hed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. 2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window). [Satya] As per the HRW, if this PE was not the DF for a vlan (vlan-bundle) = this should have no effect on the DF election. This is where it again performs better than the RFC 7438 modulo-based algor= ithm. If this was the DF, then some other surviving PE, say PE' for which the Has= h(PE', vlan) is maximum can become the PE right away on receiving the BGP w= ithdraw. There is no need for a three second wait. As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And= for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp upda= te received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care. Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem= for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc. May I know about your views in above cases. Regards, Sudhin [https://sigads.rediff.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_nx.ads/www.rediffmail.com= /signatureline.htm@Middle] Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email= . Know More > --_000_D27911B542813satyamohciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <35406CB17454F84E803AE628CDA4D1AC@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sudeep, 

Please see inline [Satya].
Patrice, thanks for your observation.<= /div>


From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Patri= ce Brissette (pbrisset)" <pbr= isset@cisco.com>
Date: Monday, November 23, 2015 6:5= 3 PM
To: sudeep g ggg <sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com>, "<= a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-moha= nty-bess-evpn-df-election-02

Sudeep,

Why do you think there will be a loop? Per ES EAD route carry ESI-mpls= extcomm which has a split-horizon label to avoid such problem. I think als= o it depends on how your configure your router (in what order).
In the case of PBB-EVPN, it is taken care by the nature of PBB.



Regards,

Patrice

   

Patrice Brissette
TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING

pbrisset@cisco.com
Phone: +1 613 254 3336

Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada
Cisco.com
Think before you print.

This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole= use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure= by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (o= r authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies= of this message.

Please click here for Company Registration Information.


From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of sudeep g gg= g <sudhinjacob@rediffmail.= com>
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at = 1:21 AM
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-= bess-evpn-df-election-02

Respected Authors,

I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct = me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly apprecia= ting.

1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.
[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. A= ccording to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, = ideally, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should be= come the non-DF rightaway. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitl= y spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. 

Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on = the above behavior. That depends on the network topology and queueing/proce= ssing at intermediate nodes.
With HRW,  a PE coming up will result in = minimal disruption of the established DF for various vlans (bundles) as opp= osed to RFC 7438 mod-based. 

2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window).
[Satya] As per the HRW, if this PE was not the= DF for a vlan (vlan-bundle) this should have no effect on the DF election.=
This is where it again performs better than th= e RFC 7438 modulo-based algorithm.
If this was the DF, then some other surviving = PE, say PE' for which the Hash(PE', vlan) is maximum can become the PE righ= t away on receiving the BGP withdraw.
There is no need for a three second wait.


As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And= for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp upda= te received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care.
Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem= for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc.

May I know about your views in above cases.

Regards,
Sudhin
Ge= t your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email.  
 Know More >
--_000_D27911B542813satyamohciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Nov 23 20:19:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C920E1B3BDC for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:19:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SqXD36eNENzL for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:19:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x234.google.com (mail-ig0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F8191B3BBF for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:19:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by igcto18 with SMTP id to18so6007110igc.0 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:19:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=janDOTRN49cPuP4Sk7FGUroXtTL2IG3laPkQAUOLLHI=; b=C9FFIK/6vxcdHxeA+MXvF7vcP5RZ7Fmxj0Kx7UByJgeUWvlu4w/kPOPIA/WUpKsiAF HlikqLzVSIvU/ed+QnS2cfTteyCC/gy9Rqx8UrVuXc/b6GtO5oU17tJ58V6IfO0b0SHJ RDJW7zPb4McuMcVxEoayTbhvnTUoaPP1OZSGpmULFbxFpfkbByAhp/ZEkDjgDRTHJB7h KnanG4GOxIZfM+QBQNmG3RJuFaHqcV8VqqCAOW4txldtBHNquQANmqeR8lzFqPEcyuGQ iKzHUjxuJL6BH6AokZ78zAk7X+FrXQHwHdEFtD74qmTNqRABO2lOe1NgEOOSPqg1YoIo 8CaA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.107.104 with SMTP id hb8mr16099983igb.1.1448338759350; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:19:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.25.130 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:19:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:19:19 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: bess@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10ca4743fefb052541a554 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:19:22 -0000 --047d7b10ca4743fefb052541a554 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. > [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the > receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is > going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF righ= t > away. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This = is > not explicitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these > lines. Actually, the only reason to give up DF is if a new ES route is received and then 3 secs is necessary for e'one. If a ES is lost, no wait time is necessary on re-election (i.e. DFs can assume DF immediately or give up DF immediately). Small window of ES route loss being realized by all peers is of course here (but we assume that is happening very fast in today's deployments). FSM in the draft shows that. Are any improvements needed there ? All those questions should be answered by reference FSM in the draft already so it's worth improving it (I see this question 3rd time or so already ?) thanks -- tony --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --047d7b10ca4743fefb052541a554 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

1. When a new PE come= s in the MH segment.
[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. Accord= ing to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideal= ly, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become = the non-DF right away. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait fo= r 3 secs. This is not explicitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinki= ng along these lines.

Actually, th= e only reason to give up DF is if a new ES route is received and then 3 sec= s is necessary for e'one. If a ES is lost, no wait time is necessary on= re-election (i.e. DFs can assume DF immediately or give up DF immediately)= . Small window of ES route loss being realized by all peers is of course he= re (but we assume that is happening very fast in today's deployments). = FSM in the draft shows that. Are any improvements needed there ? All those = questions should be answered by reference FSM in the draft already so it= 9;s worth improving it (I see this question 3rd time=C2=A0or so=C2=A0alread= y ?)

thanks

-- tony=C2=A0=


--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboar= ds could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Inte= rnet, we know that is not true.
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
--047d7b10ca4743fefb052541a554-- From nobody Mon Nov 23 21:20:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E953E1B2D68 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:20:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_NONELEMENT_30_40=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yXJWMK83m0Yd for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:20:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (f4mail-235-139.rediffmail.com [202.137.235.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 204061B2D38 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13009 invoked by uid 510); 24 Nov 2015 05:20:44 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=redf; d=rediffmail.com; b=oWqlUctvFhmfC97CmPZ+bDi8e2VJhlCyP9LTGjYb/Vjjvg3G5uq4Yt8d7sMBZdLZBWk5XAlad+bNOEwIuTr3CUg21ab6FmAcO2ff4RJvnAokWhtYdGYKTkQ5R1fVaMkPPGlCgKP6qPw3AcsTuZzgRplMbA00SxyeUfYTd/HcpoI= ; x-m-msg: asd54ad564ad7aa6sd5as6d5; a6da7d6asas6dasd77; 5dad65ad5sd; X-OUT-VDRT-SpamState: 0\LEGIT X-OUT-VDRT-SpamScore: 20 X-OUT-VDRT-SpamCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekhedrjeefgdejgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuhdfknhhvihhsihgslhgvucifohhrughsucdlvddtmdenucfjughrpeffggfvkfgjshfuhfgtsegrtderredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfshhuuggvvghpuchguchgghhgfdcuoehsuhguhhhinhhjrggtohgssehrvgguihhffhhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrvgguihhffhdrtghomhdptghishgtohdrtghomhenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuth X-Remote-IP: 116.197.184.12 X-REDF-OSEN: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com Date: 24 Nov 2015 05:20:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Received: from unknown 116.197.184.12 by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 24 Nov 2015 05:20:44 -0000 X-Senderscore: D=0&S=0 Message-ID: <1448335520.S.41443.26707.f4-234-160.1448342444.12885@webmail.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: Sender: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com From: "sudeep g ggg" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_d95735746c26ddbdf54748867da7bddf" Archived-At: Cc: pbrisset@cisco.com, bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] =?utf-8?q?REG=3A_draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02?= X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 05:20:54 -0000 --=_d95735746c26ddbdf54748867da7bddf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Respected Satya, Let me thank you for the mail. IT is much appreciated. May I request you to look in to my reply named "sudhin". If this is already taken care my sincere apologies for asking redundant question. Regards, Sudhin Jacob 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. Sudhin>> you are correct Satya but how to deal with traffic for 3 seconds when a new type 4 route comes. DF election kicks in and all PE's, For 3 seconds how to deal with traffic, the state machines need to be updated like blocking traffic or forwarding. if during that time the traffic is forwarded then a loop will be created. the EVPN RFC says SH label and BUM drop after the election, but correct me if I am totally wrong during the transition how to deal is not covered.I request your valid input on this. How to deal in that situation,what is the state of PE's during 3 seconds period.How to reach a consensus between vendors. Say for example vendors design custom solution to handle this, then how the inter op between vendors will not work. Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the established DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:55:20 +0530 "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" wrote > Hi Sudeep, Please see inline [Satya]. Patrice, thanks for your observation. From: BESS on behalf of "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" Date: Monday, November 23, 2015 6:53 PM To: sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Sudeep, Why do you think there will be a loop? Per ES EAD route carry ESI-mpls extcomm which has a split-horizon label to avoid such problem. I think also it depends on how your configure your router (in what order). In the case of PBB-EVPN, it is taken care by the nature of PBB. Regards, Patrice Patrice Brissette TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING pbrisset@cisco.com Phone: +1 613 254 3336 Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada Cisco.com Think before you print. This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. Please click here for Company Registration Information. From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 1:21 AM To: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Respected Authors, I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly appreciating. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the established DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. 2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window). [Satya] As per the HRW, if this PE was not the DF for a vlan (vlan-bundle) this should have no effect on the DF election. This is where it again performs better than the RFC 7438 modulo-based algorithm. If this was the DF, then some other surviving PE, say PE' for which the Hash(PE', vlan) is maximum can become the PE right away on receiving the BGP withdraw. There is no need for a three second wait. As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp update received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care. Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc. May I know about your views in above cases. Regards, Sudhin Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email. Know More > --=_d95735746c26ddbdf54748867da7bddf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Respected Satya,

Let me thank you for the mail. IT is much appreciated. May I request you to= look in to my reply named "sudhin". If this is already taken care my since= re apologies for asking redundant question.

Regards,
Sudhin Jacob


1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.


[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not ex= plicitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines.
Sudhin>> you are correct Satya but how to deal with traffic for 3 seconds w= hen a new type 4 route comes. DF election kicks in and all PE's, For 3 seco= nds how to deal with traffic, the state machines need to be updated like bl= ocking traffic or forwarding. if during that time the traffic is forwarded= then a loop will be created. the EVPN RFC says SH label and BUM drop after= the election, but correct me if I am totally wrong during the transition h= ow to deal is not covered.I request your valid input on this. How to deal i= n that situation,what is the state of PE's during 3 seconds period.How to r= each a consensus between vendors. Say for example vendors design custom sol= ution to handle this, then how the inter op between vendors will not work.<= br />

Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depe= nds on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes.<= br /> With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establish= ed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based.



On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:55:20 +0530 "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" wrote
>




Hi Sudeep,



Please see inline [Satya].
Patrice, thanks for your observation.








From: BESS on behalf of "Patrice Brissette (pbrisse= t)"

Date: Monday, November 23, 2015 6:53 PM

To: sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org"

Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02










Sudeep,



Why do you think there will be a loop? Per ES EAD route carry ESI-mpls extc= omm which has a split-horizon label to avoid such problem. I think also it = depends on how your configure your router (in what order).
In the case of PBB-EVPN, it is taken care by the nature of PBB.










Regards,



Patrice















Patrice Brissette

TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING



pbrisset@cisco.com

Phone: +1 613 254 3336





Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE

Canada

Cisco.com













Think before you print.



This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole us= e of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by= others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or a= uthorized to receive for the
recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies= of this message.
Please
click here for Company Registration Information.



















From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg

Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 1:21 AM

To: "bess@ietf.org"

Subject: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02







Respected Authors,



I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct = me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly apprecia= ting.



1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.






[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the
PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitl= y spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines.



Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depe= nds on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes.<= br /> With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establish= ed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based.









2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window).






[Satya] As per the HRW, if this PE was not the DF for a vlan (vlan-bundle) = this should have no effect on the DF election.
This is where it again performs better than the RFC 7438 modulo-based algor= ithm.
If this was the DF, then some other surviving PE, say PE' for which the Has= h(PE', vlan) is maximum can become the PE right away on receiving the BGP w= ithdraw.
There is no need for a three second wait.











As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And= for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp upda= te received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care.

Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem= for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc.



May I know about your views in above cases.



Regards,

Sudhin
















Get your own

FREE website,
FREE domain &
FREE mobile app with Company email.

Know
More >













Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email.  
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--=_d95735746c26ddbdf54748867da7bddf-- From nobody Mon Nov 23 21:53:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26DB11B2DCD for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:53:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id erWI4jaEHTdJ for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25A581B2DC5 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:53:00 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f799d6d000000ec2-a3-5653a95d0947 Received: from EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.93]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AB.69.03778.D59A3565; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 01:03:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.93]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 00:52:58 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: sudeep g ggg , "satyamoh@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJnfebRzG+ljvQUaY0vn7eH34JJ6qq6RA Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 05:52:58 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB2EA4D@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1448335520.S.41443.26707.f4-234-160.1448342444.12885@webmail.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1448335520.S.41443.26707.f4-234-160.1448342444.12885@webmail.rediffmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB2EA4Deusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprPIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPrG7cyuAwg68/mCxWHJ/JbPH87Aom i0enJjFaTPx2h82BxWPK742sHkuW/GTy2PBnEnsAcxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxst/QgV/jCou TrnA2MB4wLCLkZNDQsBE4vOiM6wQtpjEhXvr2boYuTiEBI4wSjSfuQTlLGeUeP6hkxmkik3A QuLyt6dgtohAlETHi0uMXYwcHMwCfhIf7uqDhIUF7CU+/T3ECFHiIDHj1T42CNtIYt/jRiaQ chYBVYlzC8pBwrwCvhKXWp+DlQsJ1EtsuT+dCcTmBJo+Zc99MJsR6Lbvp9aA2cwC4hK3nsxn grhZQGLJnvPMELaoxMvH/6B+UZTY1z+dHaI+X6Jr6lFWiF2CEidnPmGZwCg6C8moWUjKZiEp mwX2mKbE+l36ECWKElO6H7JD2BoSrXPmsiOLL2BkX8XIUVqcWpabbmSwiREYbcck2HR3MO55 aXmIUYCDUYmH94NmcJgQa2JZcWXuIUYJDmYlEd7lr4BCvCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTE efcvuR8qJJCeWJKanZpakFoEk2Xi4JRqYFx6+FGb1fZowao5y5iPVCxe6cWc7Brnu/Bi2/5N 5962WHtZ7kq1+GUyy13C925sxDxzTom2FwUG0TPOX7PdZb7SZ9WPcqaPxoZn/i1ddSc9+2/W f7O7agGPjLl3O0wT/xGcoffJy3NRXc61yGqr57felnPxiUhxm1s89dM36RNdOy3gvOLX+Uos xRmJhlrMRcWJAIlqMUOyAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "pbrisset@cisco.com" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 05:53:02 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB2EA4Deusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:03:29 +0100 To: BESS From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <565427E1.9070803@orange.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:03:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:03:33 -0000 Hello everyone, Following the positive feedback received during BESS meeting in Yokohama about introducing a one-implementation requirement in BESS, we propose to do the following for future WG last calls: As a prerequisite before doing a working group last call on a document, the chairs will ask the working group for known implementations of the specifications; a relatively detailed level of information will be required (e.g. "release x.y of solution z shipping date d", "all features implemented", "partial implementation only", etc.) and everyone will be invited to reply (not only co-authors of the specifications); the chairs will then do the working group last call if satisfying information was provided on at least one implementation. We are open for comments on this proposal until December 7th. Martin & Thomas From nobody Tue Nov 24 08:07:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C67E1A8AD1 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:07:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LvMfc1vLwcdH for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBA9A1A8AD0 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAOG7RoX015487; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:07:28 GMT Received: from 950129200 (jplon-nat14.juniper.net [193.110.55.14]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAOG7QGI015461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:07:27 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Thomas Morin'" , "'BESS'" Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:07:26 -0000 Message-ID: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdEm0jPwU7p9eG+fQt6twIyN3O8xpg== Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-21962.000 X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.892-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--4.892-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: sDm3xtR6Ud8/FLJq3yHG9QArNgt5xpQYHQ+zIynnQ47SYAzZ6KmqWnoU 0bWg+iJTISf7n2qaXhKRk6XtYogiarQ/aqQZTRfK0C1sQRfQzEHEQdG7H66TyHEqm8QYBtMOwnZ mmrv4c6fIwON+VCI+VCuNEgKT6kbJjeVlqH5b33yvY4BboIs67rHhMA9aDpuh/WyINg5Mqdqesp y8+E36a6T1zNJaG4aylExlQIQeRG0= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:07:39 -0000 Hi Thomas, It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the points in favour of this approach? (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.) Thanks, Adrian From nobody Tue Nov 24 09:45:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD81F1B3018 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:45:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CLLW_0FD3uVO for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x230.google.com (mail-yk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14FC11A90C3 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by ykdv3 with SMTP id v3so27472150ykd.0 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:45:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=queuefull.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=iS1j4b6cGLXk0abRdQTpMnCpwfB6xXgSFZWY/dj3wGU=; b=PQHbOosv2RgqBPUgQaihwr7fLdlOY+72f6d+ABpFh9i1miA7gUufCCJHqUHhhJfYgC BCVA13Paom46oN7QmSOr4uZ3uSNo8lZmXOueRcsfQ0JTkztGTFEp3t5yWA4R0WQ3wGaY IHZf00tVPzv2xz6UmWd/wQTrCkC80d5G+vdjE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=iS1j4b6cGLXk0abRdQTpMnCpwfB6xXgSFZWY/dj3wGU=; b=JwJZtvodtV2l7rLeGTtEHsMbIqiZmvr9VZ2cDegeUpYJ5TneTC07aTZbe8U3i+l/dx VuEhX/1unxbaoJEPZLqEno+XrCEQOLA5GU548GDqclRIlvpO33THxeyawlqwURcC9+nG ZBo5q2wr2iw4sjIyiv9hXXbQylGQi1YvI449X1bR3Ii81eW4Mi2jhOvlZjmfDNaAVG2m EQv/O+DJpLLrET5QOv6gDBjHdlBpF0hOnSe8CqYWH6CynwRGhcYwiHUBIuf0FOYJu15k YZj43xMSCO8JcHG1+Zjk16JhSR+M46wBopWLf/n0vnCsIPwiZt3ZlQHoAdwr03otivXj pitw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlxaGSzbp5XRDHftWu5QXbOqGKvdp4nHWfm1IZ6gROMcKeEfa6BwMITXUZOcW22A/JtTinn MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.154.148 with SMTP id r142mr31998678ywg.291.1448387151301; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.129.93.133 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:45:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:45:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Benson Schliesser To: Adrian Farrel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b7cbea6cb0605254ce9e9 Archived-At: Cc: Thomas Morin , BESS Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:45:54 -0000 --94eb2c0b7cbea6cb0605254ce9e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Building on Adrian's question, I'd be interested to learn more about why the WG considers 1 implementation as a reasonable threshold. I.e. as opposed to something like 2 or more, demonstrated interop/compliance, or something along those lines. Personally, I think the implementation requirement is a good idea in principle. But the threshold doesn't seem to be adequate if the goal is an interoperable specification. A document with only 1 implementation is more akin to technical documentation rather than an interoperable specification. But maybe there is a rationale that I'm failing to consider..? Thanks, -Benson On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. > > Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the points > in > favour of this approach? > (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > --94eb2c0b7cbea6cb0605254ce9e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Building on Adrian's question, I'd be interested t= o learn more about why the WG considers 1 implementation as a reasonable th= reshold. I.e. as opposed to something like 2 or more, demonstrated interop/= compliance, or something along those lines.=C2=A0

Person= ally, I think the implementation requirement is a good idea in principle. B= ut the threshold doesn't seem to be adequate if the goal is an interope= rable specification. A document with only 1 implementation is more akin to = technical documentation rather than an interoperable specification. But may= be there is a rationale that I'm failing to consider..?

<= /div>
Thanks,
-Benson



On Tue, Nov 24,= 2015 at 11:07 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wro= te:
Hi Thomas,

It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context.

Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the points = in
favour of this approach?
(Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.)

Thanks,
Adrian

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

--94eb2c0b7cbea6cb0605254ce9e9-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 11:01:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3761B1A87E1 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V8bDmeGxg6wo for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE9E71A6FB2 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:01:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=21772; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448391707; x=1449601307; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=dtmlDDKrk2NNgxbrySJRkbLnJsUPu0txzp56SScnVzw=; b=jTW4zDzb+zKhakGdmrfSOrjysVMGGh/b/cuSFjqWY/KKsX8AwdWz3BQa S1WJNRjTRjwGkcGhw0U29fM8JLk6BplBaB1IOZzaNp2C7S5T1vlOuiMt+ ppHPlhartgRAHxnoVBRayssUtMI0Mr7Ao2oaJlrjjkR1Jc4SBTIjjWnB1 I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AoBQBKs1RW/4UNJK1bA4JuTVNvBsApF?= =?us-ascii?q?wENFoVUAoFDPBABAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQtOQMBCQYOAgIBCBEDAQIoBxsXFAk?= =?us-ascii?q?IAgQBDQUbh34DEg2vVYlkG4RcAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGASBEIVAh?= =?us-ascii?q?H6CU4FXEAIBIwYVAQwJCAmCGU2BMQWSa4NlAYUjgnKFG4FbSYN3hzWGJoRjg3E?= =?us-ascii?q?BEScrghAegVZyAQEBAYNfQQGBBgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,339,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="211598560" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 24 Nov 2015 19:01:32 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (xch-rtp-015.cisco.com [64.101.220.155]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAOJ1QRU013959 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:01:32 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-009.cisco.com (64.101.220.149) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:01:25 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-009.cisco.com ([64.101.220.149]) by XCH-RTP-009.cisco.com ([64.101.220.149]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:01:25 -0500 From: "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" To: sudeep g ggg , "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJuqE+d7xDk3mGkuLLdjvNctgIw== Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:01:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1448335520.S.41443.26707.f4-234-160.1448342444.12885@webmail.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1448335520.S.41443.26707.f4-234-160.1448342444.12885@webmail.rediffmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.134] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D27A1DFE7AC20pbrissetciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:01:54 -0000 --_000_D27A1DFE7AC20pbrissetciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sudeep, I think when a new PE is brought up to a redundancy group, the related forw= arding must be blocked. Regards, Patrice [http://www.cisco.com/web/europe/images/email/signature/est2014/logo_06.= png?ct=3D1406640631632] Patrice Brissette TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING pbrisset@cisco.com Phone: +1 613 254 3336 Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada Cisco.com [http://www.cisco.com/assets/swa/img/thinkbeforeyouprint.gif] Think before = you print. This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole us= e of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by= others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or a= uthorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply= email and delete all copies of this message. Please click here for Company Registration Information. From: > on be= half of sudeep g ggg > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 12:20 AM To: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" > Cc: Patrice Brissette >, "bes= s@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Respected Satya, Let me thank you for the mail. IT is much appreciated. May I request you to= look in to my reply named "sudhin". If this is already taken care my since= re apologies for asking redundant question. Regards, Sudhin Jacob 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not exp= licitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. Sudhin>> you are correct Satya but how to deal with traffic for 3 seconds w= hen a new type 4 route comes. DF election kicks in and all PE's, For 3 seco= nds how to deal with traffic, the state machines need to be updated like bl= ocking traffic or forwarding. if during that time the traffic is forwarded = then a loop will be created. the EVPN RFC says SH label and BUM drop after = the election, but correct me if I am totally wrong during the transition ho= w to deal is not covered.I request your valid input on this. How to deal in= that situation,what is the state of PE's during 3 seconds period.How to re= ach a consensus between vendors. Say for example vendors design custom solu= tion to handle this, then how the inter op between vendors will not work. Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depe= nds on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establish= ed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:55:20 +0530 "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" wrote > Hi Sudeep, Please see inline [Satya]. Patrice, thanks for your observation. From: BESS on behalf of "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" Date: Monday, November 23, 2015 6:53 PM To: sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Sudeep, Why do you think there will be a loop? Per ES EAD route carry ESI-mpls extc= omm which has a split-horizon label to avoid such problem. I think also it = depends on how your configure your router (in what order). In the case of PBB-EVPN, it is taken care by the nature of PBB. Regards, Patrice Patrice Brissette TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING pbrisset@cisco.com Phone: +1 613 254 3336 Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada Cisco.com Think before you print. This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole us= e of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by= others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or a= uthorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies = of this message. Please click here for Company Registration Information. From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 1:21 AM To: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Respected Authors, I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct = me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly apprecia= ting. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly= spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depe= nds on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establish= ed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. 2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window). [Satya] As per the HRW, if this PE was not the DF for a vlan (vlan-bundle) = this should have no effect on the DF election. This is where it again performs better than the RFC 7438 modulo-based algor= ithm. If this was the DF, then some other surviving PE, say PE' for which the Has= h(PE', vlan) is maximum can become the PE right away on receiving the BGP w= ithdraw. There is no need for a three second wait. As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And= for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp upda= te received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care. Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem= for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc. May I know about your views in above cases. Regards, Sudhin Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email. Know More > [https://sigads.rediff.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_nx.ads/www.rediffmail.com= /signatureline.htm@Middle] Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email= . Know More > --_000_D27A1DFE7AC20pbrissetciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <068797C814B63949B49C2C7FC9E67EEE@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sudeep,

I think when a new PE is brought up to a redundancy group, the related= forwarding must be blocked. 


Regards,

Patrice

   

Patrice Brissette
TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING

pbrisset@cisco.com
Phone: +1 613 254 3336

Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada
Cisco.com
Think before you print.

This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole= use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure= by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (o= r authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies= of this message.

Please click here for Company Registration Information.


From: <sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com> on behalf of sudeep= g ggg <sudhinjacob@rediff= mail.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at= 12:20 AM
To: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)&= quot; <satyamoh@cisco.com><= br> Cc: Patrice Brissette <pbrisset@cisco.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-moha= nty-bess-evpn-df-election-02

Respected Satya,

Let me thank you for the mail. IT is much appreciated. May I request you to= look in to my reply named "sudhin". If this is already taken car= e my sincere apologies for asking redundant question.

Regards,
Sudhin Jacob


1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.


[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly spelled out in the draft = but we are thinking along these lines.

Sudhin>> you are correct Satya but how to deal with traffic for 3 sec= onds when a new type 4 route comes. DF election kicks in and all PE's, For = 3 seconds how to deal with traffic, the state machines need to be updated l= ike blocking traffic or forwarding. if during that time the traffic is forwarded then a loop will be created. the= EVPN RFC says SH label and BUM drop after the election, but correct me if = I am totally wrong during the transition how to deal is not covered.I reque= st your valid input on this. How to deal in that situation,what is the state of PE's during 3 seconds perio= d.How to reach a consensus between vendors. Say for example vendors design = custom solution to handle this, then how the inter op between vendors will = not work.


Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depe= nds on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes.<= br> With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establish= ed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based.



On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:55:20 +0530 "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)"= wrote
>




Hi Sudeep,



Please see inline [Satya].
Patrice, thanks for your observation.








From: BESS on behalf of "Patrice Brissette (pbr= isset)"

Date: Monday, November 23, 2015 6:53 PM

To: sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org"

Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02










Sudeep,



Why do you think there will be a loop? Per ES EAD route carry ESI-mpls extc= omm which has a split-horizon label to avoid such problem. I think also it = depends on how your configure your router (in what order).
In the case of PBB-EVPN, it is taken care by the nature of PBB.










Regards,



Patrice















Patrice Brissette

TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING



pbrisset@cisco.com

Phone: +1 613 254 3336





Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE

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From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg

Date: Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 1:21 AM

To: "bess@ietf.org"

Subject: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02







Respected Authors,



I am having 2 use cases based on that, I have a couple of queries. Correct = me if I am wrong or If I am missing something.Your input is highly apprecia= ting.



1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.






[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the
PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly= spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines.



Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depe= nds on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes.<= br> With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establish= ed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based.









2. When a PE is brought down due to MW(Maintenance window).






[Satya] As per the HRW, if this PE was not the DF for a vlan (vlan-bundle) = this should have no effect on the DF election.
This is where it again performs better than the RFC 7438 modulo-based algor= ithm.
If this was the DF, then some other surviving PE, say PE' for which the Has= h(PE', vlan) is maximum can become the PE right away on receiving the BGP w= ithdraw.
There is no need for a three second wait.











As per the above use cases.There will be change in DF election process. And= for 3 seconds there is chance of transient loop.There is delay of bgp upda= te received by each PE.Kindly let me know whether this is taken care.

Moreover 3 seconds if the traffic is blocked in the network creates problem= for delay sensitive traffic like voice,images etc.



May I know about your views in above cases.



Regards,

Sudhin
















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--_000_D27A1DFE7AC20pbrissetciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 12:42:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C9E1A8989 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:42:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M_greIKp1mVK for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:42:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0114.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73D361A8999 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from DM2PR05MB287.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.101.27) by DM2PR05MB285.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.101.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.331.20; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:42:26 +0000 Received: from DM2PR05MB287.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.101.27]) by DM2PR05MB287.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.101.27]) with mapi id 15.01.0331.019; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:42:26 +0000 From: Kishore Tiruveedhula To: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" , "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" , sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJO4Fac+iPwyIdkW2Z1iznmKeVp6qfLKAgAAI44CAAM35AA== Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:42:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151122062113.4874.qmail@f4mail-235-118.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.8.150116 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=kishoret@juniper.net; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.12] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM2PR05MB285; 5:vjnVmyJ6NJoPwLsraTwVwW/j1A5tEZaJD91RB7aMapFDx7ybp60epby6IfBtyf47qL7rByaC6EQnpCHn+QTbOQeA2iSfmj9i0MOqH8aLg81lUKEwj2rhE17tpOnqiPh4VrFoA6bWqu9ixAIrPsFvkg==; 24:LJUdLzNUYwdB6SoVuEaZZSnC+zcQbo22lO5OJuPUaRVy9HuO2RDXfkYnQAcPf2vMmPogP3uzDlepPNPEKmcnm/w+BBv9BAbk4hk77aAjNfM= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR05MB285; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(520078)(8121501046)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:DM2PR05MB285; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR05MB285; x-forefront-prvs: 0770F75EA9 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(189002)(199003)(164054003)(4001350100001)(3846002)(11100500001)(50986999)(92566002)(230783001)(5007970100001)(97736004)(66066001)(106116001)(5001960100002)(86362001)(81156007)(5001770100001)(76176999)(99286002)(107886002)(586003)(189998001)(54356999)(105586002)(2900100001)(36756003)(106356001)(5008740100001)(101416001)(5001920100001)(2950100001)(5004730100002)(77096005)(16236675004)(10400500002)(83506001)(40100003)(2501003)(122556002)(5002640100001)(102836003)(87936001)(6116002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR05MB285; H:DM2PR05MB287.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D279E23942565kishoretjunipernet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Nov 2015 20:42:26.3102 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR05MB285 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:42:32 -0000 --_000_D279E23942565kishoretjunipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please see below inline...[Kishore]. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not exp= licitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. [Kishore] Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new PE receiv= es the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the new PE can = just move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receiving the typ= e 4 without waiting for the 3 seconds timer expiry because the other redund= ant PE might have moved to Non-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the oth= er PE which is moving from DF to Non-DF. It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft. [Satya] Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. T= hat depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate= nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establis= hed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. [Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and receiv= es less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both PE ma= y become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enough in = this case. Thanks, Kishore --_000_D279E23942565kishoretjunipernet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Please see below inline…[Kishore]. 

1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.
[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. A= ccording to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, = ideally, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should be= come the non-DF rightaway. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitl= y spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. 

[Kishore]  Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new= PE receives the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the n= ew PE can just move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receivi= ng the type 4 without waiting for the 3 seconds timer expiry because the other redundant PE might have move= d to Non-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the other PE which is moving = from DF to Non-DF.
It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft. 


[Satya] Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavi= or. That depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at interme= diate nodes.
With HRW,  a PE coming up will result in = minimal disruption of the established DF for various vlans (bundles) as opp= osed to RFC 7438 mod-based. 

[Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and r= eceives less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both = PE may become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enoug= h in this case.  

Thanks,
Kishore

 --_000_D279E23942565kishoretjunipernet_-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 14:11:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2AC1A8983 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JsSuxiSMd5x for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D9521A8873 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:11:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11151; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448403112; x=1449612712; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=EjCWuzOcRd81B/8t0yPUulbSZuqp+yz+Lk7fdoMvzaE=; b=O9Iy7EVr/ahqPNu1S71J0RlI9PirlV/kLotUDMqJDutzyhYaoR9XrPbL ulX8SR3ieu0n2aEjMkTQEDjvymBIg/UztDdAOJnCD2Cyb3sz6DRMkoFOD 6iC89hBFFyFx/IXCpW+CxkX2qobVJwlR++ZzhsV/41Wvb9iPSHI/QTja1 o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AWBQBH4FRW/4gNJK1egm5NgUIGvkmBZ?= =?us-ascii?q?4YPAoFDOhIBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQSBCQIBCBEDAQIoBzIUCQgCBAESiBkDErk?= =?us-ascii?q?VG4RcAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEchlSEfoJTgiiEPgWNWoh7AY0xgVuEQY1li?= =?us-ascii?q?FYBKAE6hARyhCWBBwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,340,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="47787501" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 24 Nov 2015 22:11:51 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (xch-rtp-008.cisco.com [64.101.220.148]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAOMBowA030856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:11:51 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) by XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (64.101.220.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:11:50 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-012.cisco.com ([64.101.220.152]) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com ([64.101.220.152]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:11:50 -0500 From: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" To: Kishore Tiruveedhula , "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" , sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJO4HQBjalxTl0kqU/yKw1B0cn56q0ISA//+CxICAAafuAP//ktuA Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:11:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151122062113.4874.qmail@f4mail-235-118.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.32.170.155] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D27A1F0C429A5satyamohciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:11:55 -0000 --_000_D27A1F0C429A5satyamohciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kishore/Sudhin, From: Kishore Tiruveedhula > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:42 PM To: smohanty mohanty >, "Patr= ice Brissette (pbrisset)" >, = sudeep g ggg = >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Please see below inline...[Kishore]. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not exp= licitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. [Kishore] Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new PE receiv= es the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the new PE can = just move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receiving the typ= e 4 without waiting for the 3 seconds timer expiry because the other redund= ant PE might have moved to Non-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the oth= er PE which is moving from DF to Non-DF. It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft. [Satya] Right. We will spell this out in the next version. [Satya] Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. T= hat depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate= nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establis= hed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. [Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and receiv= es less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both PE ma= y become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enough in = this case. [Satya] The problem is there is no "cure-all" timer value that will guarant= ee this behavior. There was a ack based draft sometime back, but it would have introduced con= siderable overhead that caused complications. Thanks, Kishore Thanks, --Satya --_000_D27A1F0C429A5satyamohciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <55588C2B084FC04B8A12FC5B489CB053@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Kishore/Sudhin,

From: Kishore Tiruveedhula <kishoret@juniper.net>
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12= :42 PM
To: smohanty mohanty <satyamoh@cisco.com>, "Patrice Briss= ette (pbrisset)" <pbrisset@ci= sco.com>, sudeep g ggg <sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-moha= nty-bess-evpn-df-election-02

 Please see below inline…[Kishore]. 

1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.
[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. A= ccording to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, = ideally, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should be= come the non-DF rightaway. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitl= y spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. 

[Kishore]  Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new= PE receives the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the n= ew PE can just move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receivi= ng the type 4 without waiting for the 3 seconds timer expiry because the other redundant PE might have move= d to Non-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the other PE which is moving = from DF to Non-DF.
It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft. 
[Satya] Righ= t. We will spell this out in the next version.


[Satya] Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavi= or. That depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at interme= diate nodes.
With HRW,  a PE coming up will result in = minimal disruption of the established DF for various vlans (bundles) as opp= osed to RFC 7438 mod-based. 

[Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and r= eceives less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both = PE may become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enoug= h in this case.  
[Satya] The problem is there is no "cure-all" tim= er value that will guarantee this behavior. 
There was a ack based draft sometime back, but it would hav= e introduced considerable overhead that caused complications.

Thanks,
Kishore

Thanks,
--Satya
 --_000_D27A1F0C429A5satyamohciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 14:34:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45311A90A8 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:34:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zIpesEjHgcPD for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0146.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD60E1A9096 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.130.155) by DM2PR05MB286.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.101.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.331.20; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:33:53 +0000 Received: from SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) by SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.130.155]) with mapi id 15.01.0331.019; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:33:52 +0000 From: John E Drake To: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" , Kishore Tiruveedhula , "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" , sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJO4F+rIPIe41cE6VrrzIR6HaUJ6qfLKAgAAI44CAASHQAIAAGPmAgAADitA= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:33:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151122062113.4874.qmail@f4mail-235-118.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jdrake@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.13] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM2PR05MB286; 5:JBmVh8OyM2Y0ahBJyE0EGpajmH543yLwwYluffRj61MBH4TeDCNVDm0+sm8/bRFTxCu3YWSxnaqeDahPdlA2vqZlJw4heumqDKsHTCQArtl215cqmi62mHMPz/A7rS0ugwQYnkNiWbKWKnPLQE175Q==; 24:zSNwhkotrVC8EMStlnWaGlYoe/extm+Zhlhuw7LoHUMd8GzLfzacIxdjNJ5gBO5sM7BobpULnqXsqEzMsakJXiDLm5Ywfisut6QRj36ER2M= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR05MB286; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014)(108003899814671); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(520078)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046); SRVR:DM2PR05MB286; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR05MB286; x-forefront-prvs: 0770F75EA9 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(377454003)(199003)(189002)(164054003)(19580395003)(3846002)(33656002)(99286002)(93886004)(15975445007)(122556002)(106116001)(76576001)(77096005)(2900100001)(5001960100002)(230783001)(50986999)(107886002)(105586002)(5890100001)(2950100001)(86362001)(40100003)(92566002)(19300405004)(1941001)(2501003)(5008740100001)(586003)(19580405001)(81156007)(790700001)(16236675004)(5001770100001)(76176999)(19625215002)(6116002)(97736004)(5007970100001)(106356001)(189998001)(102836003)(5003600100002)(19609705001)(5004730100002)(10400500002)(66066001)(101416001)(5002640100001)(87936001)(74316001)(54356999); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR05MB286; H:SN1PR0501MB1709.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN1PR0501MB17098EB8F00F3CD7C2FF856FC7060SN1PR0501MB1709_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Nov 2015 22:33:52.8359 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR05MB286 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:34:02 -0000 --_000_SN1PR0501MB17098EB8F00F3CD7C2FF856FC7060SN1PR0501MB1709_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Satya, Why is this better than having all of the nodes attached to a given ES wait= for three seconds during which time all of the existing DF assignments rem= ain in force? I.e., what is wrong with the current behavior particularly = since everything operates correctly during those three seconds? Your draft is supposed to provide a clearer explanation of the current beha= vior, not to change it. This is an example of mission creep and I think it= is a mistake. Yours Irrespectively, John From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Satya Mohanty (satya= moh) Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:12 PM To: Kishore Tiruveedhula; Patrice Brissette (pbrisset); sudeep g ggg; bess@= ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Hi Kishore/Sudhin, From: Kishore Tiruveedhula > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:42 PM To: smohanty mohanty >, "Patr= ice Brissette (pbrisset)" >, = sudeep g ggg = >, "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Please see below inline...[Kishore]. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not exp= licitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. [Kishore] Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new PE receiv= es the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the new PE can = just move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receiving the typ= e 4 without waiting for the 3 seconds timer expiry because the other redund= ant PE might have moved to Non-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the oth= er PE which is moving from DF to Non-DF. It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft. [Satya] Right. We will spell this out in the next version. [Satya] Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. T= hat depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate= nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establis= hed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. [Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and receiv= es less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both PE ma= y become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enough in = this case. [Satya] The problem is there is no "cure-all" timer value that will guarant= ee this behavior. There was a ack based draft sometime back, but it would have introduced con= siderable overhead that caused complications. Thanks, Kishore Thanks, --Satya --_000_SN1PR0501MB17098EB8F00F3CD7C2FF856FC7060SN1PR0501MB1709_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Satya,

 

Why is this better than having all of= the nodes attached to a given ES wait for three seconds during which time = all of the existing DF assignments remain in force?   I.e., what is wrong with the current behavior particularly sin= ce everything operates correctly during those three seconds?

 

Your draft is supposed to provide a c= learer explanation of the current behavior, not to change it.  This is= an example of mission creep and I think it is a mistake.

 

Yours Irrespectively,

 

John

 

From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:12 PM
To: Kishore Tiruveedhula; Patrice Brissette (pbrisset); sudeep g ggg= ; bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02=

 

Hi Kishore/Sudhin,

 

From: Kishore Tiruveedhula <kishoret@juniper.net>
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:42 PM
To: smohanty mohanty <satya= moh@cisco.com>, "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" <pbrisset@cisco.com>, sudeep g ggg <= ;sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02=

 

 Please see below inline…[Ki= shore]. 

 

1. When a new PE comes in the MH segmen= t.

[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 = sec. According to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs.= But, ideally, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. Only the PE that i= s going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly spelled = out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. 

 

[Kishore]  Yes. The new PE need to= wait for 3 seconds, but if new PE receives the type 4 route from the redun= dant PE before 3 seconds, the new PE can just move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receiving the type 4 witho= ut waiting for the 3 seconds timer expiry because the other redundant = PE might have moved to Non-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the other P= E which is moving from DF to Non-DF.

It is good idea to explicitly spell out= this in this draft. 

[Satya] Right. We will spell this out in the next version= .

 

 

[Satya] Now, delay of BGP updates i= s not dependent on the above behavior. That depends on the network topology= and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes.

With HRW,  a PE coming up will resu= lt in minimal disruption of the established DF for various vlans (bundles) = as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. 

 

[Kishore] If the BGP update processing = takes more time on one PE and receives less time from RR on the other PE, t= hen it may be possible of both PE may become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enough in this case. =  

[Satya] The problem is there is no "= ;cure-all" timer value that will guarantee this behavior. =

There was a ack based draft sometime bac= k, but it would have introduced considerable overhead that caused complicat= ions.

 

Thanks,

Kishore

 

Thanks,

--Satya

--_000_SN1PR0501MB17098EB8F00F3CD7C2FF856FC7060SN1PR0501MB1709_-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 15:17:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5BA1A9163 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:17:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCrYq5PCoK8j for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:17:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86EF71A9126 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id D2075E3C72FF8 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:16:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAONH1Wa007650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:17:01 +0100 Received: from [135.224.196.249] (135.239.27.41) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:17:00 +0100 Message-ID: <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:16:59 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.41] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:17:06 -0000 Hi Adrian, indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has been corrected. The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading the iesg with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it is to prioritize them. The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was on one of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. -m Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : > Hi Thomas, > > It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. > > Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the points in > favour of this approach? > (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > From nobody Tue Nov 24 15:34:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5E31A92AB for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:34:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kAnjMMir2TiR for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:34:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 546A91A92A9 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:34:17 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f799d6d000000ec2-4e-5654a21a883b Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 93.71.03778.A12A4565; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:44:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:34:15 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Thomas Morin , BESS Thread-Topic: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls Thread-Index: AQHRJpcDh97rJd6ga0uHh+MUzcnoZ56r06ow Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:34:14 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB2EF44@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <565427E1.9070803@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <565427E1.9070803@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn670opAwgy8HBS1WHJ/JbLFh31E2 ByaPJUt+Mnm0PDvJFsAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJWx7NB91oJW3opNzw+yNjBe5epi5OSQEDCR +LO2lwXCFpO4cG89WxcjF4eQwBFGidlHV7KDJIQEljNKXPstD2KzCVhIXP72lBnEFhFwkHjY 38AEYgsLhEv0LpnAAhGPkJj4/ywbhG0k8fjuXTCbRUBV4sG7j2D1vAK+Em++HmKGmK8p8erW M0YQm1NAS2Lt211gcUagg76fWgNWzywgLnHryXwmiEMFJJbsOc8MYYtKvHz8jxXCVpKYtPQc K0S9jsSC3Z/YIGxtiWULXzND7BWUODnzCcsERtFZSMbOQtIyC0nLLCQtCxhZVjFylBanluWm GxlsYgRGwzEJNt0djHteWh5iFOBgVOLh/aAZHCbEmlhWXJl7iFGCg1lJhFfyXUiYEG9KYmVV alF+fFFpTmrxIUZpDhYlcd79S+6HCgmkJ5akZqemFqQWwWSZODilGhi1t7edWSIalJnTdeX+ dhH/VZI9LVdeq81cZRGpIsKxxeV19bbDYTsfRM2zf7jH67hs+4qSUxP1Xs+5+eFoXZf/Xe8T QQVRMRqxZQ/F9cpUa1vfOChHnOFIlZqRZdQ5869ZunzNdvsV8w447NfjYhFd1+TmnbDl64nd /BvvTz69IKOo9HST9DclluKMREMt5qLiRADql3RuggIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:34:19 -0000 +1 (I don't mean make it 1+1=3D2 implementations, I just say it's a very g= ood new [and old ;-) ] idea ;-)=20 thanks=20 --- tony _____________________________________________ "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent = behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid beha= vior."=20 --- Dee Hock=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Morin > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 1:03 AM > To: BESS > Subject: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG > last calls >=20 > Hello everyone, >=20 > Following the positive feedback received during BESS meeting in Yokohama > about introducing a one-implementation requirement in BESS, we propose to > do the following for future WG last calls: >=20 > As a prerequisite before doing a working group last call on a document, t= he > chairs will ask the working group for known implementations of the > specifications; a relatively detailed level of information will be requir= ed (e.g. > "release x.y of solution z shipping date d", "all features implemented", > "partial implementation only", etc.) and everyone will be invited to repl= y (not > only co-authors of the specifications); the chairs will then do the worki= ng > group last call if satisfying information was provided on at least one > implementation. >=20 > We are open for comments on this proposal until December 7th. >=20 > Martin & Thomas >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Tue Nov 24 16:11:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419C61AC3CA for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:11:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oYcb4AbfvFsL for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB8681AC3C8 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AE2259F28; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:11:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 75AB5259EDA; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:11:22 -0800 (PST) To: Martin Vigoureux , bess@ietf.org References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5654FCA2.5040304@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:11:14 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:11:24 -0000 Without wanting to be pedantic, I would have expected to see discusison of this on the list, and determination that the list agreed with it. Discussion at the meeting is informative, but is not the basis for a WG decision. I am also slightly concerned that the working group is creating a procedural bar (one that does seem reasonable to me) without buyin from the larger community. Yours, Joel On 11/24/15 6:16 PM, Martin Vigoureux wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has been > corrected. > > The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading the iesg > with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) > implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it is to > prioritize them. > > The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was on one > of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. > > -m > > Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >> Hi Thomas, >> >> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. >> >> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the >> points in >> favour of this approach? >> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > From nobody Tue Nov 24 16:14:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8512B1AC3C8 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:14:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nEJ0K-FxkA_z for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (asmtp1.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.248]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D93141AC3C1 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAP0DuaS008999; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:13:56 GMT Received: from 950129200 (jplon-nat14.juniper.net [193.110.55.14]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAP0Ds86008984 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:13:55 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Martin Vigoureux'" , References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:13:54 -0000 Message-ID: <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHNtZzWIk70Rf7fCAWqH5P/CIrNowJ5btgfnp7v5qA= Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-21962.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--26.759-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--26.759-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: byfwvk+IcRmnykMun0J1wgPZZctd3P4Bkwag6Y8wnwqae6AcsiK/zSyL xYt0BphrXkC525xe8n8fWpjbi+UB9CyYkC0b5PWKcFEiuPxHjsVQCOsAlaxN72rhyhOS2sZfbOh vQwxZCUuM8ZGKBgA5yBoGduAbhSAVr4Tjl93LJldgP1dNF1ow7UbbuL7Y47c0Ej6OXPIYs+eCJn FbzNSABPLLgVHDh/PqSTNMtJng+0jf1X7FYDq2pPHkpkyUphL9Ud7Bjfo+5jSOtR/F4zYXtFiqA yk7LkbkGuH5xJqgzLubDyASsLPl6y2EAwnfeFdOMB2m5K0KuIlA8I/PJy4EU6eyBkDBDKXG0/xb S3+sxpQUlhHQ7aq7crybQaZfYheYYWo9dIuk10BCvapcIkxJX3WT6A/Vdqa0myiLZetSf8nkA/7 Kqi9Jmau6xVHLhqfxvECLuM+h4RB+3BndfXUhXQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:14:01 -0000 Yeah, thanks Martin. The slide has... =3D=3DRaising the bar?=3D=3D =95 Some documents are being pushed to IESG but without any implementation (plan) to support them =95 We are thinking of =93requiring=94 that at least one implementation exists before handing the document to IESG =95 Thoughts? The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second requires implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests that you = may be considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we have an = opening for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be flexible. The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you received = in the room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some confusion in = the discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an = implementation, and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have implementations. While, = in a world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally we are = not significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are busy = processing another. Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce the = pointless, unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for = publication. The question is how to achieve that. Adrian (still thinking about this) > -----Original Message----- > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin = Vigoureux > Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 > To: bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement = before WG > last calls >=20 > Hi Adrian, >=20 > indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has been > corrected. >=20 > The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading the = iesg > with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) > implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it is to > prioritize them. >=20 > The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was on one > of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >=20 > -m >=20 > Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a =E9crit : > > Hi Thomas, > > > > It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. > > > > Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the = points > in > > favour of this approach? > > (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.) > > > > Thanks, > > Adrian > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BESS mailing list > > BESS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Tue Nov 24 16:19:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FD41A8864 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:19:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RMDTJNQ6aIXa for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22a.google.com (mail-yk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C50E81A8827 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by ykdv3 with SMTP id v3so39291233ykd.0 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:19:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=queuefull.net; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=K+HSgJhFvkFRQ2cx+W9h3LUrWdfZ4j0uqJcIKurlv40=; b=iEN1wRkEdQhXa9S+dEhVQxgosRpS/R3M4P1hx2+ZKpPIigbZwnGRG97baSAsyW+5Tm C0EKNpv9xpHQKpdJQTLbnkhrsnYu8aZUHFE4Q1kQnwh9aZbO4UW+Iac/ZuHJfXmHrF5Z GbCvS5ELp25kUEvXPibGRUMbMDGERTC24woGI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=K+HSgJhFvkFRQ2cx+W9h3LUrWdfZ4j0uqJcIKurlv40=; b=mRSVmXtFefC1IRpXQw9oUEDVXKSMtcGGZGrDvQQlFBy5+VX8dYfhPWflnpEoEe0iAf z6u1YxKqFzfrDvDqoHkZ/elcsmRRcQwhnW8z2FRhmQZBvTH01MHoSlf+SVmXjtXgbBpH 25XhislcMqc4EnkJlzuVEDRveEmaIJp/Y0Lk6wXr49uTKJVkn1Y27DcKZCFLCSdARnvb DKO0TNIVmf0BTAVD3hr3R1A+5yVuNebAKsRwUhmEXkuXoiSTEjrOPYf9OuhU05S/mnfm dBuiX8ySA1qq26rGXTSEQPezGcXjUe4xBlsOxwAv72fuM5C5x8RVRAtRKNwl4O9wSNTs r1aw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl5DviYNAhct/J+PCmNgwCJabeSj0ocQVpW+tQc3NChN/ZvJF4H4zLYFHzOmZOcs1B/69cu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.49.140 with SMTP id x134mr31091242ywx.219.1448410787967; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.129.93.133 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:19:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5654FCA2.5040304@joelhalpern.com> References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <5654FCA2.5040304@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:19:47 -0500 Message-ID: From: Benson Schliesser To: "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11421c0881ab930525526af8 Archived-At: Cc: Martin Vigoureux , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:19:50 -0000 --001a11421c0881ab930525526af8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this may be a useful "procedural bar" and if so then I'd like to see it implemented in other WGs, too... And, to some extent, it may be within the prerogative of the WG chairs. But I am also surprised by the lack of discussion. And I don't see any substantial conversation documented in the proceedings of the last meeting. I'd like to understand why this threshold makes sense to the WG, assuming it does... -Benson On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Without wanting to be pedantic, I would have expected to see discusison o= f > this on the list, and determination that the list agreed with it. > Discussion at the meeting is informative, but is not the basis for a WG > decision. > > I am also slightly concerned that the working group is creating a > procedural bar (one that does seem reasonable to me) without buyin from t= he > larger community. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/24/15 6:16 PM, Martin Vigoureux wrote: > >> Hi Adrian, >> >> indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has been >> corrected. >> >> The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading the iesg >> with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) >> implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it is to >> prioritize them. >> >> The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was on one >> of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >> >> -m >> >> Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a =C3=A9crit : >> >>> Hi Thomas, >>> >>> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. >>> >>> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the >>> points in >>> favour of this approach? >>> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Adrian >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BESS mailing list >>> BESS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> >> > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > --001a11421c0881ab930525526af8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think this may be a useful "procedural bar" an= d if so then I'd like to see it implemented in other WGs, too... And, t= o some extent, it may be within the prerogative of the WG chairs. But I am = also surprised by the lack of discussion. And I don't see any substanti= al conversation documented in the proceedings of the last meeting. I'd = like to understand why this threshold makes sense to the WG, assuming it do= es...
-Benson


=
On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Joel M. Halpern= <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
Without wanting to be pedantic, I would have expected to see discusis= on of this on the list, and determination that the list agreed with it. Dis= cussion at the meeting is informative, but is not the basis for a WG decisi= on.

I am also slightly concerned that the working group is creating a procedura= l bar (one that does seem reasonable to me) without buyin from the larger c= ommunity.

Yours,
Joel

On 11/24/15 6:16 PM, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
Hi Adrian,

indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has been
corrected.

The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading the iesg
with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an)
implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it is to
prioritize them.

The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was on one
of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status.

-m

Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a =C3=A9crit :
Hi Thomas,

It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context.

Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the
points in
favour of this approach?
(Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.)

Thanks,
Adrian

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

--001a11421c0881ab930525526af8-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 16:28:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C7B1A913B for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:28:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GJipmUYD2niN for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:28:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EF0C1A8A64 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAP0KYVc017812; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:20:34 GMT Received: from 950129200 (jplon-nat14.juniper.net [193.110.55.14]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAP0KWUV017789 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:20:33 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Joel M. Halpern'" , "'Martin Vigoureux'" , References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <5654FCA2.5040304@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <5654FCA2.5040304@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:20:32 -0000 Message-ID: <057901d12717$1a0bb140$4e2313c0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHNtZzWIk70Rf7fCAWqH5P/CIrNowJ5btgfAvCNdsyeh3Fu8A== Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-21962.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No-0.916-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No-0.916-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: fgYTp5XatxY4HKI/yaqRm2zBijri5+RVI5K4Cd+0ao8rX2i4kJYDDTUd wmnf5xbNwQh4BNoyvex9JF9H9o+Fo09H0hd42GZ+lY5qr7f6fHLjAcZeNJgY95soi2XrUn/JyeM tMD9QOgCrrVqVQLpWR+TCMddcL/gjq77TyioJzBjThxRsyu3M1l2hdHvjTKfM67/UkCHu/U2w2g SrEAZtYS/5YOVz4nrdQrZAmdHg+ACYCwYXb8TCisxXCoMFCqXcGY9x0kHLrcs2Fo4EfHNqXY5MJ KdFN6D6I9UhQYuUjidG3TVmsFmvfq+rSEQia5NyVlxr1FJij9s= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 00:28:48 -0000 Joel, > I am also slightly concerned that the working group is creating a > procedural bar (one that does seem reasonable to me) without buyin from > the larger community. To be clear, the WG is allowed to make a decision to do this. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc4794/ Adrian From nobody Wed Nov 25 02:19:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4781A1A1A2C for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:19:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_NONELEMENT_30_40=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ljUqtCRlNhA for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:19:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (f4mail-235-249.rediffmail.com [202.137.235.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60E721A1A10 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17885 invoked by uid 510); 25 Nov 2015 10:18:47 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=redf; d=rediffmail.com; b=InNBrkxVxhRsmORWZE+gLOgrogG4IlhXoZ71d0jp71LS6Qa0acm20bWaxBW1TJRJDGyHpaP9eE/RNDvJljTCGz9PBExO7YRjdT3IMCqK7VU7PrKSxyY2v1/Tknp6QWN7FTBqfjJbxFdvdv5jCOxeBC9GP0+bqM3fsvlKa3gXVUE= ; x-m-msg: asd54ad564ad7aa6sd5as6d5; a6da7d6asas6dasd77; 5dad65ad5sd; X-OUT-VDRT-SpamState: 0\LEGIT X-OUT-VDRT-SpamScore: 20 X-OUT-VDRT-SpamCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekhedrjeekgdduhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuhdfknhhvihhsihgslhgvucifohhrughsucdlvddtmdenucfjughrpeffggfvkfgjshfuhfgtsegrtderredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfshhuuggvvghpuchguchgghhgfdcuoehsuhguhhhinhhjrggtohgssehrvgguihhffhhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrvgguihhffhdrtghomhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhht X-Remote-IP: 116.197.184.12 X-REDF-OSEN: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com Date: 25 Nov 2015 10:18:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Received: from unknown 116.197.184.12 by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 25 Nov 2015 10:18:47 -0000 X-Senderscore: D=0&S=0 Message-ID: <1448403120.S.30573.24908.f6-235-70.1448446727.17720@webmail.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: Sender: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com From: "sudeep g ggg" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_4d4c9654e020fe5730122663151b19dc" Archived-At: Cc: pbrisset@cisco.com, bess@ietf.org, kishoret@juniper.net Subject: Re: [bess] =?utf-8?q?REG=3A_draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02?= X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:19:05 -0000 --=_4d4c9654e020fe5730122663151b19dc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Satya, Let me thank you for your mail,it is much appreciated.You will take this in to account in next revision, much appreciated so that all will be in same page. One more thought though just a random thought.I would like to bring your kind attention.Since section 7.1 you clearly explains that you are not taking in to consideration about vlan mis configuration. My thought requires no answers from your side.But I would like to bring one case in to your frame of mind just sharing it.Once again big thank you for your reply. Section 7.1 Observe that currently the VLANs are derived from local configuration and the FSM does not provide any protection against misconfiguration where same EVI,ESI combination has different set of VLANs on different participating PEs or one of the PEs elects to consider VLANs as VLAN bundle and another as separate VLANs for election purposes (service type mismatch). for example PE1 loopback 150.1.1.1 PE2 loopback 150.1.2.2 PE1 has vlan 2,3,4 PE2 has vlan 3,4 so DF election at present V mod N so PE1 will be DF in PE1 calculation. in PE2 DF calculation V mod N. PE2 will be DF. So in short both PE will be DF for a EVI. Regards, Sudhin Jacob On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 03:42:00 +0530 "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" wrote > Hi Kishore/Sudhin, From: Kishore Tiruveedhula Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:42 PM To: smohanty mohanty , "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" , sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Please see below inline…[Kishore]. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. [Kishore] Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new PE receives the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the new PE can just move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receiving the type 4 without waiting for the 3 seconds timer expiry because the otherredundant PE might have moved to Non-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the other PE which is moving from DF to Non-DF. It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft. [Satya] Right. We will spell this out in the next version. [Satya]Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the established DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. [Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and receives less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both PE may become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enough in this case. [Satya] The problem is there is no "cure-all" timer value that will guarantee this behavior. There was a ack based draft sometime back, but it would have introduced considerable overhead that caused complications. Thanks, Kishore Thanks, --Satya _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess --=_4d4c9654e020fe5730122663151b19dc Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Hi Satya,

Let me thank you for your mail,it is much appreciated.You will take this in= to account in next revision, much appreciated so that all will be in same = page. One more thought though just a random thought.I would like to bring y= our kind attention.Since section 7.1 you clearly explains that you are not = taking in to consideration about vlan mis configuration. My thought
requires no answers from your side.But I would like to bring one case in to= your frame of mind just sharing it.Once again big thank you for your reply= .

Section 7.1

Observe that currently the VLANs are derived from local configuration
and the FSM does not provide any protection against misconfiguration
where same EVI,ESI combination has different set of VLANs on
different participating PEs or one of the PEs elects to consider
VLANs as VLAN bundle and another as separate VLANs for election
purposes (service type mismatch).

for example PE1 loopback 150.1.1.1 PE2 loopback 150.1.2.2

PE1 has vlan 2,3,4 PE2 has vlan 3,4

so DF election at present V mod N so PE1 will be DF in PE1 calculation.
in PE2 DF calculation V mod N. PE2 will be DF. So in short both PE will be = DF for a EVI.

Regards,
Sudhin Jacob



On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 03:42:00 +0530 "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" wrote
>





Hi Kishore/Sudhin,






From: Kishore Tiruveedhula

Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:42 PM

To: smohanty mohanty , "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" <= pbrisset@cisco.com>, sudeep g ggg ,
"bess@ietf.org"

Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02












Please see below inline=E2=80=A6[Kishore].









1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.


[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the
PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitl= y spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines.





[Kishore] Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new PE receive= s the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the new PE can j= ust move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receiving the type= 4 without waiting for the
3 seconds timer expiry because the otherredundant PE might have moved to N= on-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the other PE which is moving from D= F to Non-DF.
It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft.




[Satya] Right. We will spell this out in the next version.












[Satya]Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. Th= at depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate = nodes.
With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establish= ed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based.





[Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and receiv= es less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both PE ma= y become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enough in = this case.




[Satya] The problem is there is no "cure-all" timer value that will guarant= ee this behavior.
There was a ack based draft sometime back, but it would have introduced con= siderable overhead that caused complications.







Thanks,
Kishore









Thanks,

--Satya
























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requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F19491A1AE3 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id D07F076E7B756; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:59:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAPAxFVp032065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:59:15 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.183]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:59:15 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" To: sudeep g ggg , "satyamoh@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJ2rDqFhIiW98iUSPbhM2mAAosp6skc2A Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:59:14 +0000 Message-ID: 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Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:47:57 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:47:49 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" Thread-Topic: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol Thread-Index: AQHRI+++hAE8JLFDy0CwLu06Rs9qSJ6qCCgAgAKunV4= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:47:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.46.55.225] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8EB5F3nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.5655ADFF.0185, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: f9172ba0e38c0ad093569d247a3820fd Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:48:06 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8EB5F3nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ali, Thanks for your explanation. Yes, it=92s clear for route-type2 message usag= e. For data plane MAC learning, CE=92s MAC will be announced through two me= ssages w/o IP address respectively. I also have another similar question for IP address announcement here. Whe= n each EVPN PE acts as distributed layer 3 gateway, the PE will learn ARP t= ables for local connecting CEs. Each PE will synchronize these ARP tables t= hrough route-type2 message to other remote PEs for ARP Proxy. For inter-sub= net traffic forwarding, the remote PEs can populate the IP addresses includ= ed in the route-type2 message to local IP routing table. But in some vendor= =92s implementation, each PE will also announce local CE=92s IP address to = other remote PEs through route-type5 message. Question: Should only route-type2 message or both route-type2 and route-typ= e5 messages be announced for local connecting CE=92s IP address on each EVP= N PE in distributed layer 3 gateway scenario? Should it be further clarifie= d in related drafts? Your clarifications are appreciated. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [sajassi@cisco.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 6:49 To: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); Haoweiguo Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base proto= col Hi Weiguo, Section 10 of RFC 7432 covers this topic nicely. As Jorge alluded to, wheth= er a PE only sends a single Route-Type-2 or two of them, depends on whether= the MAC learning is done in control-plane/management-plane or it is done i= n data-plane. If it is the former, then only a single Route-Type-2 is sent = and if it is the latter, then two are sent. Cheers, Ali From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" > Date: Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 9:01 AM To: Haoweiguo >, Cisco Em= ployee > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base proto= col Hi Weiguo, I would recommend you to check out the L2VPN archives=85 we discussed this = at length. For instance: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/msg04519.html But check the other emails in the thread. Sending one or two routes, really depend on how the learning is done. Hope it helps. Thanks. Jorge From: BESS > on behalf = of Haoweiguo > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 1:37 AM To: "sajassi@cisco.com" > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol Hi Co-authors, Through ARP process, each EVPN PE can learn local connecting CE=92s MAC and= IP correspondence, and will notify the MAC and IP association to all remot= e PEs through Route-type2 message. Theoretically, each remote PE can rely o= n the single route-type2 message to populate local Mac VRF(MAC table) , ARP= Cache and IP VRF(IP routing table) at the same time. However, some vendor = doesn=92t do in this way. In its implementation, each PE will notify two ro= ute-type2 message to remote PEs, one message(say message 1) only carry MAC = information(IP field is invalid), another message(say message 2) carry MAC = and IP association information. The remote PEs rely on message 1 to populat= e local MAC VRF, and rely on message 2 to populate local ARP Cache and IP V= RF. I think EVPN protocol should give a clear suggestion for route type-2 messa= ge usage, what=92s the scenario to announce only one message and what=92s s= cenario to announce two messages? Thanks, weiguo --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8EB5F3nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ali,

T= hanks for your explanation. Yes, it=92s clear for route-type2 message usage= . For data plane MAC learning, CE=92s MAC will be announced through two mes= sages w/o IP address respectively.

<= span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> I also have another similar q= uestion for IP address announcement here. When each EVPN PE acts as distrib= uted layer 3 gateway, the PE will learn ARP tables for local connecting CEs. Each PE will synchronize these ARP tables throug= h route-type2 message to other remote PEs for ARP Proxy. For inter-subnet t= raffic forwarding, the remote PEs can populate the IP addresses included in= the route-type2 message to local IP routing table. But in some vendor=92s implementation, each PE will also= announce local CE=92s IP address to other remote PEs through route-type5 m= essage.

Q= uestion: Should only route-type2 message or both route-type2 and route-type= 5 messages be announced for local connecting CE=92s IP address on each EVPN= PE in distributed layer 3 gateway scenario? Should it be further clarified in related drafts? Your clarifications are = appreciated.

Thanks,

weiguo

From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [sajassi@cisco= .com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 6:49
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge); Haoweiguo
Cc: bess@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] One question about Route-type2 usage in EVPN bas= e protocol


Hi Weiguo,

Section 10 of RFC 7432 covers this topic nicely. As Jorge alluded to, = whether a PE only sends a single Route-Type-2 or two of them, depends on wh= ether the MAC learning is done in control-plane/management-plane or it is d= one in data-plane. If it is the former, then only a single Route-Type-2 is sent and if it is the latter, t= hen two are sent. 

Cheers,
Ali 

From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)= " <jorge.rabadan@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Saturday, November 21, 2015 = at 9:01 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>, Cis= co Employee <saja= ssi@cisco.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [bess] One question a= bout Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol

Hi Weiguo,

I would recommend you to check out the L2VPN archives=85 we discussed = this at length.
For instance:

But check the other emails in the thread.
Sending one or two routes, really depend on how the learning is done.&= nbsp;

Hope it helps.
Thanks.
Jorge

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2015 = at 1:37 AM
To: "sajassi@cisco.com" <sajassi@cisco.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] One question about= Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">Hi Co-authors,

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">Through ARP process, each EVPN PE = can learn local connecting CE=92s MAC and IP correspondence, and will notif= y the MAC and IP association to all remote PEs through Route-type2 message. Theoretically, each remote PE can rely on the= single route-type2 message to populate local Mac VRF(MAC table) , ARP Cach= e and IP VRF(IP routing table) at the same time. However, some vendor doesn= =92t do in this way. In its implementation, each PE will notify two route-type2 message to remote PEs, one message(say= message 1) only carry MAC information(IP field is invalid), another messag= e(say message 2) carry MAC and IP association information. The remote PEs r= ely on message 1 to populate local MAC VRF, and rely on message 2 to populate local ARP Cache and IP VRF.

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"> 

I think EVPN protocol sh= ould give a clear suggestion for route type-2 message usage, what=92s the s= cenario to announce only one message and what=92s scenario to announce two messages?

 

Thanks,

weiguo

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8EB5F3nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 05:04:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B221AC3AF for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:04:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.974 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pWAaEhSX8bu9 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (f4mail-235-96.rediffmail.com [202.137.235.96]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4ED551B2C45 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28783 invoked by uid 510); 25 Nov 2015 13:04:14 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=redf; d=rediffmail.com; b=BNp5tRC7By4WdU9Bc2unSvO1sPYx+mp1YLM/F+ZYJ9MXeA2tH5s1RjsfChklBnOemd7jGWKOm0MARUC8ts9AxS9uBudvP+Dwb2sx0AcYbIXRQtpc6GQ83oyHIpIX/XrrPbt2y1DaadMpy62HhlbcyZpnkwV+SAwYpfk1S48xjmY= ; x-m-msg: asd54ad564ad7aa6sd5as6d5; a6da7d6asas6dasd77; 5dad65ad5sd; X-OUT-VDRT-SpamState: 0\LEGIT X-OUT-VDRT-SpamScore: 20 X-OUT-VDRT-SpamCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekhedrjeekgdeglecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuhdfknhhvihhsihgslhgvucifohhrughsucdlvddtmdenucfjughrpeffggfvkfgjshfuhfgtsegrtderredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfshhuuggvvghpuchguchgghhgfdcuoehsuhguhhhinhhjrggtohgssehrvgguihhffhhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrvgguihhffhdrtghomhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhht X-Remote-IP: 116.197.184.12 X-REDF-OSEN: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com Date: 25 Nov 2015 13:04:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Received: from unknown 116.197.184.12 by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 25 Nov 2015 13:04:13 -0000 X-Senderscore: D=0&S=0 Message-ID: <1448449169.S.25347.32209.f4-235-201.1448456653.28464@webmail.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0A87DA2D-31E5-4780-8B3E-569301947D48@alcatel-lucent.com> Sender: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com From: "sudeep g ggg" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_a68bbb93d74524bcff0283cd642cb019" Archived-At: Cc: pbrisset@cisco.com, satyamoh@cisco.com, bess@ietf.org, kishoret@juniper.net Subject: Re: [bess] =?utf-8?q?REG=3A_draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02?= X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:04:36 -0000 --=_a68bbb93d74524bcff0283cd642cb019 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jorge, Let me thank you for the mail. Since this mail thread is for one particular draft. I think it is good to open a new thread for discussing another draft. May I request you to give me some time to go through it and I get back.I will open a new thread for discussing your draft.Appreciate your support. Regards, Sudhin Jacob On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:29:29 +0530 "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" wrote > Hi Sudhin, You may want to have a look at this draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02 Provides a solution for your use-case in EVPN, without any control plane changes compared to RFC7432. There are already implementations doing that. Thanks. Jorge From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 11:18 AM To: "satyamoh@cisco.com" Cc: "pbrisset@cisco.com" , "bess@ietf.org" , "kishoret@juniper.net" Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Hi Satya, Let me thank you for your mail,it is much appreciated.You will take this in to account in next revision, much appreciated so that all will be in same page. One more thought though just a random thought.I would like to bring your kind attention.Since section 7.1 you clearly explains that you are not taking in to consideration about vlan mis configuration. My thought requires no answers from your side.But I would like to bring one case in to your frame of mind just sharing it.Once again big thank you for your reply. Section 7.1 Observe that currently the VLANs are derived from local configuration and the FSM does not provide any protection against misconfiguration where same EVI,ESI combination has different set of VLANs on different participating PEs or one of the PEs elects to consider VLANs as VLAN bundle and another as separate VLANs for election purposes (service type mismatch). for example PE1 loopback 150.1.1.1 PE2 loopback 150.1.2.2 PE1 has vlan 2,3,4 PE2 has vlan 3,4 so DF election at present V mod N so PE1 will be DF in PE1 calculation. in PE2 DF calculation V mod N. PE2 will be DF. So in short both PE will be DF for a EVI. Regards, Sudhin Jacob On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 03:42:00 +0530 "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" wrote > Hi Kishore/Sudhin, From: Kishore Tiruveedhula Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:42 PM To: smohanty mohanty , "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" , sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02 Please see below inline…[Kishore]. 1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment. [Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the receiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going from DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. Only the PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines. [Kishore] Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new PE receives the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the new PE can just move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receiving the type 4 without waiting for the 3 seconds timer expiry because the otherredundant PE might have moved to Non-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the other PE which is moving from DF to Non-DF. It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft. [Satya] Right. We will spell this out in the next version. [Satya]Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. That depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate nodes. With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the established DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based. [Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and receives less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both PE may become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enough in this case. [Satya] The problem is there is no "cure-all" timer value that will guarantee this behavior. There was a ack based draft sometime back, but it would have introduced considerable overhead that caused complications. Thanks, Kishore Thanks, --Satya _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email. Know More > _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess --=_a68bbb93d74524bcff0283cd642cb019 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jorge,

Let me thank you for the mail. Since this mail thread is for one particular= draft. I think it is good to open a new thread for discussing another draf= t. May I request you to give me some time to go through it and I get back.= I will open a new thread for discussing your draft.Appreciate your support.=

Regards,
Sudhin Jacob

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:29:29 +0530 "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" wrote
>






Hi Sudhin,



You may want to have a look at this draft:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02



Provides a solution for your use-case in EVPN, without any control plane ch= anges compared to RFC7432.
There are already implementations doing that.



Thanks.
Jorge










From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg

Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 11:18 AM

To: "satyamoh@cisco.com"

Cc: "pbrisset@cisco.com" , "bess@ietf.org" ,
"kishoret@juniper.net"

Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02







Hi Satya,



Let me thank you for your mail,it is much appreciated.You will take this in= to account in next revision, much appreciated so that all will be in same = page. One more thought though just a random thought.I would like to bring y= our kind attention.Since section
7.1 you clearly explains that you are not taking in to consideration about= vlan mis configuration. My thought


requires no answers from your side.But I would like to bring one case in to= your frame of mind just sharing it.Once again big thank you for your reply= .



Section 7.1



Observe that currently the VLANs are derived from local configuration

and the FSM does not provide any protection against misconfiguration

where same EVI,ESI combination has different set of VLANs on

different participating PEs or one of the PEs elects to consider

VLANs as VLAN bundle and another as separate VLANs for election

purposes (service type mismatch).



for example PE1 loopback 150.1.1.1 PE2 loopback 150.1.2.2



PE1 has vlan 2,3,4 PE2 has vlan 3,4



so DF election at present V mod N so PE1 will be DF in PE1 calculation.

in PE2 DF calculation V mod N. PE2 will be DF. So in short both PE will be = DF for a EVI.



Regards,

Sudhin Jacob







On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 03:42:00 +0530 "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)"
wrote

>











Hi Kishore/Sudhin,













From: Kishore Tiruveedhula



Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:42 PM



To: smohanty mohanty , "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)"
, sudeep g ggg ,

"bess@ietf.org"



Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-mohanty-bess-evpn-df-election-02

























Please see below inline=E2=80=A6[Kishore].



















1. When a new PE comes in the MH segment.





[Satya] Yes, New PE needs to wait for 3 sec. According to RFC 7438, the rec= eiving PEs also need to wait for 3 secs. But, ideally, a PE that is going f= rom DF to non-DF or non-DF to non-DF should become the non-DF rightaway. On= ly the

PE that is going DF really needs to wait for 3 secs. This is not explicitly= spelled out in the draft but we are thinking along these lines.











[Kishore] Yes. The new PE need to wait for 3 seconds, but if new PE receive= s the type 4 route from the redundant PE before 3 seconds, the new PE can j= ust move to DF immediately (if it becomes DF) just after receiving the type= 4 without waiting for the

3 seconds timer expiry because the otherredundant PE might have moved to No= n-DF as there is no 3 seconds timer on the other PE which is moving from DF= to Non-DF.

It is good idea to explicitly spell out this in this draft.









[Satya] Right. We will spell this out in the next version.

























[Satya]Now, delay of BGP updates is not dependent on the above behavior. Th= at depends on the network topology and queueing/processing at intermediate = nodes.

With HRW, a PE coming up will result in minimal disruption of the establish= ed DF for various vlans (bundles) as opposed to RFC 7438 mod-based.











[Kishore] If the BGP update processing takes more time on one PE and receiv= es less time from RR on the other PE, then it may be possible of both PE ma= y become DF or Non-DF, so the timer value should be chosen large enough in = this case.










[Satya] The problem is there is no "cure-all" timer value that will guarant= ee this behavior.

There was a ack based draft sometime back, but it would have introduced con= siderable overhead that caused complications.















Thanks,

Kishore



















Thanks,



--Satya

















































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--=_a68bbb93d74524bcff0283cd642cb019-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 05:16:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A541B2C42 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:16:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iTdnOJbBRKcY for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01B0B1A1C00 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 7A1295786FB7E; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:15:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAPDFr35025524 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:15:57 +0100 Received: from [135.224.217.147] (135.239.27.39) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.111) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:15:52 +0100 Message-ID: <5655B487.9020606@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:15:51 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bess@ietf.org" References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <5654FCA2.5040304@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.39] Archived-At: Cc: Benson Schliesser , "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:16:03 -0000 Joel, Benson, hello. I agree that there has not been a lengthy discussion during the session but some people reacted to the proposal and expressed their support. Joel, on the specific point that a discussion in a meeting is informative, I fully agree, and the point of our e-mail is to continue the discussion on the list. We explicitly say that this is a proposal and that we are open to comments. Thanks -m Le 25/11/2015 01:19, Benson Schliesser a écrit : > I think this may be a useful "procedural bar" and if so then I'd like to > see it implemented in other WGs, too... And, to some extent, it may be > within the prerogative of the WG chairs. But I am also surprised by the > lack of discussion. And I don't see any substantial conversation > documented in the proceedings of the last meeting. I'd like to > understand why this threshold makes sense to the WG, assuming it does... > -Benson > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > Without wanting to be pedantic, I would have expected to see > discusison of this on the list, and determination that the list > agreed with it. Discussion at the meeting is informative, but is not > the basis for a WG decision. > > I am also slightly concerned that the working group is creating a > procedural bar (one that does seem reasonable to me) without buyin > from the larger community. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/24/15 6:16 PM, Martin Vigoureux wrote: > > Hi Adrian, > > indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has > been > corrected. > > The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading > the iesg > with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) > implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it > is to > prioritize them. > > The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was > on one > of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. > > -m > > Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : > > Hi Thomas, > > It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. > > Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe > summarise the > points in > favour of this approach? > (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare > time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > From nobody Wed Nov 25 05:59:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A4D1B2CC6 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:59:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.972 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.972 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l78NZ_BjnqrY for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (f4mail-235-174.rediffmail.com [202.137.235.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0133F1B2CC3 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18128 invoked by uid 510); 25 Nov 2015 13:59:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=redf; d=rediffmail.com; b=n/RvrkjwUEUojxOliFqdflKVd56sLdzUa04sKOWtY1P+0OXcodMA5u+J8o33PuvkfQLwl/JAnafFqWfIogbsZ3DW7XS+LDXxZg6qFYZvGEKE0INuDgp6aEz7T6+nuUjziEp9+zz0n21dVyI04r0J+nJuhGOdtp0c16q89OYfsBg= ; x-m-msg: asd54ad564ad7aa6sd5as6d5; a6da7d6asas6dasd77; 5dad65ad5sd; X-OUT-VDRT-SpamState: 0\LEGIT X-OUT-VDRT-SpamScore: 20 X-OUT-VDRT-SpamCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekhedrjeekgdeitdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuhdfknhhvihhsihgslhgvucifohhrughsucdlvddtmdenucfjughrpeffkfggvfhsuffhtgesrgdtvdertddtjeenucfhrhhomhepfdhsuhguvggvphcughcughhgghdfuceoshhuughhihhnjhgrtghosgesrhgvughifhhfmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucffohhmrghinheprhgvughifhhfrdgtohhmnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhht X-Remote-IP: 116.197.184.12 X-REDF-OSEN: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com Date: 25 Nov 2015 13:58:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20151125135855.17485.qmail@f4mail-235-174.rediffmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Received: from unknown 116.197.184.12 by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 25 Nov 2015 13:58:55 -0000 X-Senderscore: D=0&S=0 Sender: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com From: "sudeep g ggg" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_972ea1306f14e5b8888cc749b81601f4" Archived-At: Subject: [bess] =?utf-8?q?REG=3A_draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02?= X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:59:07 -0000 --=_972ea1306f14e5b8888cc749b81601f4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Respected Authors, I had gone through the draft at high level,I am happy to see a real provider provisioning issues addressed in your draft. Much appreciated. Some key highlights in your draft. 1. No changes. 2. Using existing features to address a problem. 3. Addresses provisioning issues. How ever I have following queries. May I know how to deal with vlan provisioning issues like one PE will have vlan 2,3,4 and other PE will have 3,4 this will end up in both PE's as DF correct me if I am wrong, you use type 1 Ad per ES and EVI for DF election, how about vlan issues. May I know how to handle transient loop during 3 seconds period during DF election.May I know the state of PE during the DF election, clarity required[humble opinion]. This seems to be a good customer focused solution. I appreciate it.[please note: this is my humble opinion as an individual not representing any one] Regards, Sudhin Jacob --=_972ea1306f14e5b8888cc749b81601f4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Respected Authors,

I had gone through the draft at high level,I am happy to see a real provide= r provisioning issues addressed in your draft. Much appreciated.

Some key highlights in your draft.

1. No changes.
2. Using existing features to address a problem.
3. Addresses provisioning issues.

How ever I have following queries.

May I know how to deal with vlan provisioning issues like one PE will have = vlan 2,3,4 and other PE will have 3,4 this will end up in both PE's as DF c= orrect me if I am wrong, you use type 1 Ad per ES and EVI for DF election, = how about vlan issues.

May I know how to handle transient loop during 3 seconds period during DF e= lection.May I know the state of PE during the DF election, clarity required= [humble opinion].


This seems to be a good customer focused solution. I appreciate it.[please = note: this is my humble opinion as an individual not representing any one]<= br />
Regards,
Sudhin Jacob








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--=_972ea1306f14e5b8888cc749b81601f4-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 14:19:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37BEB1B3177 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:19:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CdS4PQtUa0Sy for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:19:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B99A1A8BC5 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 7AE562A803B47; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:19:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAPMJPeR024208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:19:25 +0100 Received: from [135.224.217.147] (135.239.27.40) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:19:25 +0100 Message-ID: <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:19:24 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.40] Archived-At: Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:19:30 -0000 Adrian, Thanks. Please see my reactions in-line. -m Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a écrit : > Yeah, thanks Martin. > > The slide has... > > ==Raising the bar?== > . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but > without any implementation (plan) to support > them > . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one > implementation exists before handing the > document to IESG > . Thoughts? > > The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second requires > implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests that you may be > considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we have an opening > for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be flexible. Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. But defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the default being the 1 implem requirement. I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community together with the associated processing procedures. The latter is definitely subject to being implemented and as such subject to the requirement we are discussing. However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in support of specific needs. So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 implem requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). > The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you received in the > room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some confusion in the > discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an implementation, > and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have implementations. While, in a > world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally we are not > significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are busy processing > another. I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. In a situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, having one might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the process but I think this is one amongst several possible other criterion. > Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce the pointless, > unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for publication. The > question is how to achieve that. The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have an implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution to reducing the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes little sense to push through the standardization process an implementable specification but for which no implementation exists. The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the last possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of potential actions that could be taken to reach the objective, actions which are relevant during the I-D life cycle within the WG. But I guess this is a broader discussion. > > Adrian (still thinking about this) > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux >> Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 >> To: bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG >> last calls >> >> Hi Adrian, >> >> indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has been >> corrected. >> >> The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading the iesg >> with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) >> implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it is to >> prioritize them. >> >> The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was on one >> of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >> >> -m >> >> Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >>> Hi Thomas, >>> >>> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. >>> >>> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the points >> in >>> favour of this approach? >>> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Adrian >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BESS mailing list >>> BESS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > From nobody Wed Nov 25 14:57:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CD91B3238 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:57:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qPjb4wny1Yah for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BE551B3237 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by wmvv187 with SMTP id v187so7209304wmv.1 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:57:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Jd8kZlYW+Es9GP6uNZCE8u/qXA5cD8hHw3NawGlgQVM=; b=c0gfmxwMyd2HPUQ/DpxmDYeCWqrfM51m2hIibpeKJ+3YLG0gVdig+K6UlT1cezfXAz QnTr3Csou4dDJacxDre1Z7cfZPHf+1LLAFuiPNvD9v2BBb8s+Xs4FAI3VeQZLbiXk+Ph 12pwlCGP6JDPae9B5Rn6hGX1Vxuyt+5Dy2uHwrJLFZcWi3Sm7K6oscnU37krCpe7+maF Xo87IiMM2k5Un/kIQ+yLzwpsOqVp0WKUedUGDdqpQFTWZ21vy6nsOg32jRUAEyEMC0wJ am5LCPSiMjbxJdpsEVKzW9SdqNNBADHbthjqLqb8zOh2HUnz6eRb7IpaWz0uruBeQWVm qxQw== X-Received: by 10.194.203.99 with SMTP id kp3mr3769376wjc.3.1448492264842; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:57:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.148.208 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:57:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:57:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Martin Vigoureux Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd91af2e7ed1a05256562ba Archived-At: Cc: Adrian Farrel , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:57:50 -0000 --047d7bd91af2e7ed1a05256562ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Based on my experience on both the vendor and operator side, I see some practical problems with this approach: - There are some (many?) operators that won=E2=80=99t put drafts into an RF= P, only RFCs. - There are some (many?) vendors that won=E2=80=99t implement a draft or RF= C, no matter how good the quality, unless they have a customer that wants the feature. That could be an existing customer that needs the feature operationally (which could lead to early implementation), or it could be a prospective customer with an RFP. - Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans, and they usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change before publication, requiring a change in the implementation. For all these reasons, unless there=E2=80=99s an existing customer that nee= ds a draft=E2=80=99s features to fix an operational problem, it=E2=80=99s less c= ommon for vendors to implement drafts than RFCs. A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just prior to WG LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the results of the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there=E2=80=99s a consensus = to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that everyone agrees is really important to get published, but for whatever reason hasn=E2=80=99t yet been implemented. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux < martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > Adrian, > > Thanks. > Please see my reactions in-line. > > -m > > Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a =C3=A9crit : > >> Yeah, thanks Martin. >> >> The slide has... >> >> =3D=3DRaising the bar?=3D=3D >> . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but >> without any implementation (plan) to support >> them >> . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one >> implementation exists before handing the >> document to IESG >> . Thoughts? >> >> The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second requires >> implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests that you >> may be >> considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we have an >> opening >> for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be flexible. >> > > Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. But > defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. > I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the default > being the 1 implem requirement. > I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags > It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community together > with the associated processing procedures. The latter is definitely subje= ct > to being implemented and as such subject to the requirement we are > discussing. > However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in > support of specific needs. > So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 implem > requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). > > The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you received in >> the >> room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some confusion in >> the >> discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an >> implementation, >> and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have implementations. While, >> in a >> world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally we are n= ot >> significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are busy >> processing >> another. >> > I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. In a > situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, having one > might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the process but I > think this is one amongst several possible other criterion. > > Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce the >> pointless, >> unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for >> publication. The >> question is how to achieve that. >> > The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have an > implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution to reduci= ng > the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes little sense to pu= sh > through the standardization process an implementable specification but fo= r > which no implementation exists. > The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the last > possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. > > Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of potential > actions that could be taken to reach the objective, actions which are > relevant during the I-D life cycle within the WG. But I guess this is a > broader discussion. > > > >> Adrian (still thinking about this) >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux >>> Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 >>> To: bess@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before >>> WG >>> last calls >>> >>> Hi Adrian, >>> >>> indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has been >>> corrected. >>> >>> The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading the iesg >>> with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) >>> implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it is to >>> prioritize them. >>> >>> The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was on one >>> of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >>> >>> -m >>> >>> Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>>> Hi Thomas, >>>> >>>> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. >>>> >>>> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the >>>> points >>>> >>> in >>> >>>> favour of this approach? >>>> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.) >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Adrian >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BESS mailing list >>>> BESS@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BESS mailing list >>> BESS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > --047d7bd91af2e7ed1a05256562ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Based on my experience on both the vendor and operator sid= e, I see some practical problems with this approach:

- T= here are some (many?) operators that won=E2=80=99t put drafts into an RFP, = only RFCs.

- There are some (many?) vendors that w= on=E2=80=99t implement a draft or RFC, no matter how good the quality, unle= ss they have a customer that wants the feature. That could be an existing c= ustomer that needs the feature operationally (which could lead to early imp= lementation), or it could be a prospective customer with an RFP.
=
- Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans,= and they usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change befor= e publication, requiring a change in the implementation.

For all these reasons, unless there=E2=80=99s an existing customer t= hat needs a draft=E2=80=99s features to fix an operational problem, it=E2= =80=99s less common for vendors to implement drafts than RFCs.
A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just p= rior to WG LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the re= sults of the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there=E2=80=99s= a consensus to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that everyone a= grees is really important to get published, but for whatever reason hasn=E2= =80=99t yet been implemented.

Cheers,
An= dy


On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
Adrian,

Thanks.
Please see my reactions in-line.

-m

Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a =C3=A9crit :
Yeah, thanks Martin.

The slide has...

=3D=3DRaising the bar?=3D=3D
 . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but
without any implementation (plan) to support
them
 . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one
implementation exists before handing the
document to IESG
 . Thoughts?

The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second requires
implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests that you ma= y be
considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we have an open= ing
for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be flexible.

Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. But defin= ing the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then.
I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the default being= the 1 implem requirement.
I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags
It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community together wi= th the associated processing procedures. The latter is definitely subject t= o being implemented and as such subject to the requirement we are discussin= g.
However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in support= of specific needs.
So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 implem requi= rement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags).

The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you received in t= he
room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some confusion in the=
discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an implementat= ion,
and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have implementations. While,= in a
world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally we are not<= br> significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are busy processing=
another.
 I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. In a = situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, having one mi= ght indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the process but I think = this is one amongst several possible other criterion.

Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce the pointless= ,
unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for publication. = The
question is how to achieve that.
 The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have an impl= ementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution to reducing the= load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes little sense to pus= h through the standardization process an implementable specification but fo= r which no implementation exists.
The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the last possib= le from a chair's perspective) to think about that.

Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of potential a= ctions that could be taken to reach the objective, actions which are releva= nt during the I-D life cycle within the WG. But I guess this is a broader d= iscussion.



Adrian (still thinking about this)

-----Original Message-----
From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux
Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17
To: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG<= br> last calls

Hi Adrian,

indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation has been
corrected.

The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid (over)loading the iesg
with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an)
implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets implemented, it is to
prioritize them.

The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It was on one
of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status.

-m

Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a =C3=A9crit :
Hi Thomas,

It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context.

Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe summarise the points<= br>
in
favour of this approach?
(Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some spare time.)

Thanks,
Adrian

_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess



_______________________________________________
BESS mailing list
BESS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

--047d7bd91af2e7ed1a05256562ba-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 17:26:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E921A8821 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:26:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rb2U46HfPWxr for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 553081A8822 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by pabfh17 with SMTP id fh17so75674371pab.0 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:26:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=1igbGjeHRxMGjVx9OqjhXHadTZ2nwc3lATM7O7rgVzg=; b=iNXI28FBzGn9ow0do90yGSLCmgV+dGQd7qkeN/s/yxXWJn2TPB1OR/yuO5ExLUKzlq /emd20SMQeBAE61pa9hp4qkpwELTKloeXdaS537lJ8phG+KbGRTTrxVFKf3S4G45s8d3 310fH9EeXpr/+ZV4ykmXfk1PiSVN8is8X45JCItQ/GxjZhP3Qbs781Pv3Z/4QsfQymWZ aeizjCan1asV3o5V762vm8QqzW80fdx+L5nbuuFqrgSdoSA2nxLhTGkTcilqwmH4T6m0 XW6grkNESwyaUflf39AJqJ7QERi9KKrhpJ0cbsFtBhiiQkQYyn2SbtSm3PzbqG7oW7UP /WUA== X-Received: by 10.66.252.129 with SMTP id zs1mr56225314pac.59.1448501214005; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2602:304:b25c:e30:5c07:8d29:db26:4250? ([2602:304:b25c:e30:5c07:8d29:db26:4250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fn4sm23850789pab.46.2015.11.25.17.26.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:26:53 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Kireeti Kompella X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13B143) In-Reply-To: <565427E1.9070803@orange.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:26:52 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5724D47D-455C-4EEB-8407-244A29759499@gmail.com> References: <565427E1.9070803@orange.com> To: Thomas Morin Archived-At: Cc: BESS Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:26:56 -0000 Sounds like a good idea to me. One tweak: having an official "release x.y @s= hipping date d" is unlikely for a draft. The value of one implementation (vs= more) is that it shows that a spec is implementable and reasonably complete= . So, this should be the focus, with details on how much of the spec was imp= lemented. Shipping plans should be totally optional.=20 Note that even an experimental implementation takes effort, is likely to bec= ome official, and shows a degree of seriousness of the part of the implement= or. Asking for greater commitment at WGLC is (imho) asking too much.=20 Kireeti > On Nov 24, 2015, at 01:03, Thomas Morin wrote: >=20 > Hello everyone, >=20 > Following the positive feedback received during BESS meeting in Yokohama a= bout introducing a one-implementation requirement in BESS, we propose to do t= he following for future WG last calls: >=20 > As a prerequisite before doing a working group last call on a document, th= e chairs will ask the working group for known implementations of the specifi= cations; a relatively detailed level of information will be required (e.g. "= release x.y of solution z shipping date d", "all features implemented", "par= tial implementation only", etc.) and everyone will be invited to reply (not o= nly co-authors of the specifications); the chairs will then do the working g= roup last call if satisfying information was provided on at least one implem= entation. >=20 > We are open for comments on this proposal until December 7th. >=20 > Martin & Thomas >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Wed Nov 25 21:36:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE9C1ACE5E for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:36:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y0wTMJFEVuYJ for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 665551ACE5D for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (unknown [49.149.184.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1009E180146D; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:36:07 +0100 (CET) To: "Andrew G. Malis" , Martin Vigoureux References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <56569A3F.7090406@pi.nu> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:35:59 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Adrian Farrel , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 05:36:16 -0000 Folks, I'm very much om the same page as Andy, having knowledge of implementations is a good thing. A "requirement" that we have an implementation before requesting that the document is published as an RFC is in most cases also good. The tricky part is when to be flexible. I've asked for implementations for every intended PS we requested publication for. I have more than once been in a situation there operators tell me that the have the draft deployed, but where the vendor does not respond to questions about implementations. I've also seen where two vendors asked for early allocation because they are implementing and doing interop tests. Again one or both vendors does not respond to the implementation poll. One can speculate about the reasons for this, but it seems that often the decision whether or not to disclose an implementation is outside the mandate for people participating in immediate IETF process. In short, with a sufficient level of flexibility I support this. It would be good if we can have some type of report when some experience of the required implementation is at hand. /Loa On 2015-11-26 06:57, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Based on my experience on both the vendor and operator side, I see some > practical problems with this approach: > > - There are some (many?) operators that won’t put drafts into an RFP, > only RFCs. > > - There are some (many?) vendors that won’t implement a draft or RFC, no > matter how good the quality, unless they have a customer that wants the > feature. That could be an existing customer that needs the feature > operationally (which could lead to early implementation), or it could be > a prospective customer with an RFP. > > - Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans, and they > usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change before > publication, requiring a change in the implementation. > > For all these reasons, unless there’s an existing customer that needs a > draft’s features to fix an operational problem, it’s less common for > vendors to implement drafts than RFCs. > > A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just prior to WG > LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the results of > the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there’s a consensus > to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that everyone agrees is > really important to get published, but for whatever reason hasn’t yet > been implemented. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux > > wrote: > > Adrian, > > Thanks. > Please see my reactions in-line. > > -m > > Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a écrit : > > Yeah, thanks Martin. > > The slide has... > > ==Raising the bar?== > . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but > without any implementation (plan) to support > them > . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one > implementation exists before handing the > document to IESG > . Thoughts? > > The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second requires > implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests > that you may be > considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we > have an opening > for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be > flexible. > > > Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. > But defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. > I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the > default being the 1 implem requirement. > I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags > It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community > together with the associated processing procedures. The latter is > definitely subject to being implemented and as such subject to the > requirement we are discussing. > However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in > support of specific needs. > So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 > implem requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). > > The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you > received in the > room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some > confusion in the > discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an > implementation, > and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have implementations. > While, in a > world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally > we are not > significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are busy > processing > another. > > I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. In > a situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, > having one might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the > process but I think this is one amongst several possible other > criterion. > > Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce > the pointless, > unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for > publication. The > question is how to achieve that. > > The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have > an implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution > to reducing the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes > little sense to push through the standardization process an > implementable specification but for which no implementation exists. > The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the last > possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. > > Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of > potential actions that could be taken to reach the objective, > actions which are relevant during the I-D life cycle within the WG. > But I guess this is a broader discussion. > > > > Adrian (still thinking about this) > > -----Original Message----- > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux > Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 > To: bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation > requirement before WG > last calls > > Hi Adrian, > > indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation > has been > corrected. > > The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid > (over)loading the iesg > with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) > implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets > implemented, it is to > prioritize them. > > The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It > was on one > of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. > > -m > > Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : > > Hi Thomas, > > It's really hard to enter this discussion with any context. > > Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe > summarise the points > > in > > favour of this approach? > (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some > spare time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > From nobody Thu Nov 26 01:23:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D15E1B37DD for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TfyrS21lq9QM for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD0B51B37DE for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:22:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 4E2F9EF3CA019; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:22:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAQ9MnIm024863 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:22:56 +0100 Received: from [135.224.217.147] (135.239.27.38) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.112) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:22:52 +0100 Message-ID: <5656CF6B.1020203@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:22:51 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "bess@ietf.org" References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> <56569A3F.7090406@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <56569A3F.7090406@pi.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.38] Archived-At: Cc: agmalis@gmail.com, Loa Andersson Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:23:06 -0000 Andy, Loa, thanks for sharing your views. If there are valid reasons for pushing to iesg a non-implemented specification, we'd be ready to consider them. It would simply not be the default way of doing, nor the norm. If it was, if every draft was "really important", then none would really be, in fact. Also, Loa, I believe that the situations you describe would be solved thanks to the introduction of this requirement. -m Le 26/11/2015 06:35, Loa Andersson a écrit : > Folks, > > I'm very much om the same page as Andy, having knowledge of > implementations is a good thing. A "requirement" that we have an > implementation before requesting that the document is published as > an RFC is in most cases also good. > > The tricky part is when to be flexible. I've asked for implementations > for every intended PS we requested publication for. I have more than > once been in a situation there operators tell me that the have the > draft deployed, but where the vendor does not respond to questions > about implementations. > > I've also seen where two vendors asked for early allocation because > they are implementing and doing interop tests. Again one or both > vendors does not respond to the implementation poll. > > One can speculate about the reasons for this, but it seems that often > the decision whether or not to disclose an implementation is outside > the mandate for people participating in immediate IETF process. > > In short, with a sufficient level of flexibility I support this. It > would be good if we can have some type of report when some experience > of the required implementation is at hand. > > /Loa > > > On 2015-11-26 06:57, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Based on my experience on both the vendor and operator side, I see some >> practical problems with this approach: >> >> - There are some (many?) operators that won’t put drafts into an RFP, >> only RFCs. >> >> - There are some (many?) vendors that won’t implement a draft or RFC, no >> matter how good the quality, unless they have a customer that wants the >> feature. That could be an existing customer that needs the feature >> operationally (which could lead to early implementation), or it could be >> a prospective customer with an RFP. >> >> - Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans, and they >> usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change before >> publication, requiring a change in the implementation. >> >> For all these reasons, unless there’s an existing customer that needs a >> draft’s features to fix an operational problem, it’s less common for >> vendors to implement drafts than RFCs. >> >> A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just prior to WG >> LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the results of >> the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there’s a consensus >> to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that everyone agrees is >> really important to get published, but for whatever reason hasn’t yet >> been implemented. >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux >> > > wrote: >> >> Adrian, >> >> Thanks. >> Please see my reactions in-line. >> >> -m >> >> Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >> >> Yeah, thanks Martin. >> >> The slide has... >> >> ==Raising the bar?== >> . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but >> without any implementation (plan) to support >> them >> . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one >> implementation exists before handing the >> document to IESG >> . Thoughts? >> >> The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second >> requires >> implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests >> that you may be >> considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we >> have an opening >> for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be >> flexible. >> >> >> Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. >> But defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. >> I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the >> default being the 1 implem requirement. >> I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags >> It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community >> together with the associated processing procedures. The latter is >> definitely subject to being implemented and as such subject to the >> requirement we are discussing. >> However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in >> support of specific needs. >> So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 >> implem requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). >> >> The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you >> received in the >> room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some >> confusion in the >> discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an >> implementation, >> and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have implementations. >> While, in a >> world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally >> we are not >> significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are busy >> processing >> another. >> >> I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. In >> a situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, >> having one might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the >> process but I think this is one amongst several possible other >> criterion. >> >> Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce >> the pointless, >> unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for >> publication. The >> question is how to achieve that. >> >> The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have >> an implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution >> to reducing the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes >> little sense to push through the standardization process an >> implementable specification but for which no implementation exists. >> The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the last >> possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. >> >> Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of >> potential actions that could be taken to reach the objective, >> actions which are relevant during the I-D life cycle within the WG. >> But I guess this is a broader discussion. >> >> >> >> Adrian (still thinking about this) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org >> ] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux >> Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 >> To: bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation >> requirement before WG >> last calls >> >> Hi Adrian, >> >> indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation >> has been >> corrected. >> >> The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid >> (over)loading the iesg >> with documents that have no (and could possibly never have >> an) >> implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets >> implemented, it is to >> prioritize them. >> >> The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It >> was on one >> of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >> >> -m >> >> Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >> >> Hi Thomas, >> >> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any >> context. >> >> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe >> summarise the points >> >> in >> >> favour of this approach? >> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some >> spare time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> > > From nobody Thu Nov 26 01:50:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2811B3845 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:50:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id erLDtpSC3ZEO for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A52DA1B3844 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id DC3BAA8AD3708; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:50:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAQ9o7v0028157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:50:26 +0100 Received: from [135.224.217.147] (135.239.27.40) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.112) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:50:04 +0100 Message-ID: <5656D5CB.6070103@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:50:03 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <565427E1.9070803@orange.com> <5724D47D-455C-4EEB-8407-244A29759499@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5724D47D-455C-4EEB-8407-244A29759499@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.40] Archived-At: Cc: Kireeti Kompella Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:50:32 -0000 Hello Kireeti, thanks for your inputs. I understand the challenge that "release x.y @shipping date d" might pose. What we want, is to go beyond the "I am aware of an implementation" type of response. It might currently be sufficient with regards to the shepherd write-up question, but won't be any more if we introduce the requirement. We'd like to have tangible information. Giving "details on how much of the spec was implemented" is clearly going in that direction. -m Le 26/11/2015 02:26, Kireeti Kompella a écrit : > Sounds like a good idea to me. One tweak: having an official "release x.y @shipping date d" is unlikely for a draft. The value of one implementation (vs more) is that it shows that a spec is implementable and reasonably complete. So, this should be the focus, with details on how much of the spec was implemented. Shipping plans should be totally optional. > > Note that even an experimental implementation takes effort, is likely to become official, and shows a degree of seriousness of the part of the implementor. Asking for greater commitment at WGLC is (imho) asking too much. > > Kireeti > >> On Nov 24, 2015, at 01:03, Thomas Morin wrote: >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> Following the positive feedback received during BESS meeting in Yokohama about introducing a one-implementation requirement in BESS, we propose to do the following for future WG last calls: >> >> As a prerequisite before doing a working group last call on a document, the chairs will ask the working group for known implementations of the specifications; a relatively detailed level of information will be required (e.g. "release x.y of solution z shipping date d", "all features implemented", "partial implementation only", etc.) and everyone will be invited to reply (not only co-authors of the specifications); the chairs will then do the working group last call if satisfying information was provided on at least one implementation. >> >> We are open for comments on this proposal until December 7th. >> >> Martin & Thomas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BESS mailing list >> BESS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > From nobody Thu Nov 26 05:34:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06FB1A6F33 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 05:34:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e__0uonkBOJo for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 05:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 841DD1A1AA6 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 05:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.67]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id F1136C04D7 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:34:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.1.183]) by opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id D19A21A0080 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:34:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.1) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:34:48 +0100 To: References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <7284_1448544888_56570A78_7284_351_1_56570A78.1090009@orange.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:34:48 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.1] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:34:53 -0000 Hi Andrew, Andrew G. Malis : > - There are some (many?) operators that won’t put drafts into an RFP, > only RFCs. My take on that is that if a known-stable specs is considered as something important to have, operators will put it in their RFPs (maybe not as a strict compliance requirement, but certainly as something having significant visibility). If they don't, it means that they simply aren't looking at new work and noy unlikely to ask anything that vendor arent' already implementing or seriously planning to implement. > - There are some (many?) vendors that won’t implement a draft or RFC, > no matter how good the quality, unless they have a customer that wants > the feature. That could be an existing customer that needs the feature > operationally (which could lead to early implementation), or it could > be a prospective customer with an RFP. This can surely happen on a case by case basis, but in my experience I have seen a large number of mature and stable draft having multiple implementations before, sometimes long before, having the final 'RFC' stamp. People have learned to get the benefits of, and live with the drawbacks of, early implementations. Remember we are not talking about gating the progress of specs not implemented yet by everyone, but of stable specs that noone has implemented yet. > > - Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans, and they > usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change before > publication, requiring a change in the implementation. > > For all these reasons, unless there’s an existing customer that needs > a draft’s features to fix an operational problem, it’s less common for > vendors to implement drafts than RFCs. With reference to these RFP/RFC considerations, I think we need to focus on developing the right tools to: - keep this idea of 'raising the bar' - find a way to advertise that a draft is stable enough to be implemented and referred to by operators > A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just prior to > WG LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the > results of the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there’s > a consensus to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that > everyone agrees is really important to get published, but for whatever > reason hasn’t yet been implemented. Not delaying the WG LC for lack-of-implementation reasons would certainly have the merit of allowing the WG to reach consensus on the stability of the specs and advertise this fact by other means that "this doc goes to IESG now". The "Waiting for implementation" state introduced by IDR (mentioned by John Scudder during BESS meeting) seems to be the right tool for the job. And I agree we should allow chairs to propose skipping the "Waiting for implementation" step of a draft not having convincing implementation plans, if there is consensus in the WG to do so. -Thomas > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux > > wrote: > > Adrian, > > Thanks. > Please see my reactions in-line. > > -m > > Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a écrit : > > Yeah, thanks Martin. > > The slide has... > > ==Raising the bar?== > . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but > without any implementation (plan) to support > them > . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one > implementation exists before handing the > document to IESG > . Thoughts? > > The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second > requires > implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet > suggests that you may be > considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we > have an opening > for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be > flexible. > > > Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. > But defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. > I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the > default being the 1 implem requirement. > I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags > It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community > together with the associated processing procedures. The latter is > definitely subject to being implemented and as such subject to the > requirement we are discussing. > However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism > in support of specific needs. > So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 > implem requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). > > The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you > received in the > room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some > confusion in the > discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have > an implementation, > and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have > implementations. While, in a > world of limited resources, the two things are related, > ideally we are not > significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are > busy processing > another. > > I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. > In a situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, > having one might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through > the process but I think this is one amongst several possible other > criterion. > > Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce > the pointless, > unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for > publication. The > question is how to achieve that. > > The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that > have an implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a > contribution to reducing the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it > anyway makes little sense to push through the standardization > process an implementable specification but for which no > implementation exists. > The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the > last possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. > > Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of > potential actions that could be taken to reach the objective, > actions which are relevant during the I-D life cycle within the > WG. But I guess this is a broader discussion. > > > > Adrian (still thinking about this) > > -----Original Message----- > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux > Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 > To: bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation > requirement before WG > last calls > > Hi Adrian, > > indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. > situation has been > corrected. > > The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid > (over)loading the iesg > with documents that have no (and could possibly never have an) > implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets > implemented, it is to > prioritize them. > > The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. > It was on one > of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. > > -m > > Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : > > Hi Thomas, > > It's really hard to enter this discussion with any > context. > > Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe > summarise the points > > in > > favour of this approach? > (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some > spare time.) > > Thanks, > Adrian > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. 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From nobody Thu Nov 26 05:50:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2331B376E for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 05:50:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X2eYHiq_TJYk for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 05:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (r-mail2.rd.orange.com [217.108.152.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601351B39CC for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 05:50:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3358A5D8A79 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:50:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by r-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3C35D8A4C for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:50:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.224.2; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:50:09 +0100 To: References: <565427E1.9070803@orange.com> <5724D47D-455C-4EEB-8407-244A29759499@gmail.com> <5656D5CB.6070103@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <56570E11.2080803@orange.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:50:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5656D5CB.6070103@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:50:13 -0000 Kireeti, Martin, Any data related to a serious implementation (even a beta without a shipping date), would I think be convincing enough. "release x.y @shipping date d" was simply provided as a possible answer, not of the minimum requirement to be convincing. As Martin said we need more than "I am aware of an implementation". I would say we also need more than "we plan to implement". There are cases where we may need more detailed data. Take for instance the case of a draft that needs specific dataplane support: would we accept as convincing enough an implementation on a software-only platform, in the absence of any vendor planning to implement on hardware ? -Thomas Martin Vigoureux : > Hello Kireeti, > > thanks for your inputs. > I understand the challenge that "release x.y @shipping date d" might > pose. What we want, is to go beyond the "I am aware of an > implementation" type of response. It might currently be sufficient > with regards to the shepherd write-up question, but won't be any more > if we introduce the requirement. We'd like to have tangible > information. Giving "details on how much of the spec was implemented" > is clearly going in that direction. > > -m > > Le 26/11/2015 02:26, Kireeti Kompella a écrit : >> Sounds like a good idea to me. One tweak: having an official "release >> x.y @shipping date d" is unlikely for a draft. The value of one >> implementation (vs more) is that it shows that a spec is >> implementable and reasonably complete. So, this should be the focus, >> with details on how much of the spec was implemented. Shipping plans >> should be totally optional. >> >> Note that even an experimental implementation takes effort, is likely >> to become official, and shows a degree of seriousness of the part of >> the implementor. Asking for greater commitment at WGLC is (imho) >> asking too much. >> >> Kireeti >> >>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 01:03, Thomas Morin >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> Following the positive feedback received during BESS meeting in >>> Yokohama about introducing a one-implementation requirement in BESS, >>> we propose to do the following for future WG last calls: >>> >>> As a prerequisite before doing a working group last call on a >>> document, the chairs will ask the working group for known >>> implementations of the specifications; a relatively detailed level >>> of information will be required (e.g. "release x.y of solution z >>> shipping date d", "all features implemented", "partial >>> implementation only", etc.) and everyone will be invited to reply >>> (not only co-authors of the specifications); the chairs will then do >>> the working group last call if satisfying information was provided >>> on at least one implementation. >>> >>> We are open for comments on this proposal until December 7th. >>> >>> Martin & Thomas From nobody Thu Nov 26 06:01:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6644A1B39ED for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:01:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rtTX-6tn_3-i for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4BBC1B39EB for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by omfedm11.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id BD1653B45E5 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:01:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 99F5A27C082 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:01:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.1) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:01:52 +0100 To: References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> <56569A3F.7090406@pi.nu> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <11585_1448546512_565710D0_11585_7065_9_565710CF.7080000@orange.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:01:51 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56569A3F.7090406@pi.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.1] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.26.132415 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:01:57 -0000 Hi Loa, Loa Andersson : > One can speculate about the reasons for this, but it seems that often > the decision whether or not to disclose an implementation is outside > the mandate for people participating in immediate IETF process. I would find it quite unlikely to be in a situation where none of the vendors implementing a stable spec would have the ability of disclosing it. I would expect the people who are close to the IETF, if they have an interest in seeing the spec progress, to be able to spend the time so that someone else sends an appropriate email to bess@ietf.org. -Thomas > > On 2015-11-26 06:57, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Based on my experience on both the vendor and operator side, I see some >> practical problems with this approach: >> >> - There are some (many?) operators that won’t put drafts into an RFP, >> only RFCs. >> >> - There are some (many?) vendors that won’t implement a draft or RFC, no >> matter how good the quality, unless they have a customer that wants the >> feature. That could be an existing customer that needs the feature >> operationally (which could lead to early implementation), or it could be >> a prospective customer with an RFP. >> >> - Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans, and they >> usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change before >> publication, requiring a change in the implementation. >> >> For all these reasons, unless there’s an existing customer that needs a >> draft’s features to fix an operational problem, it’s less common for >> vendors to implement drafts than RFCs. >> >> A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just prior to WG >> LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the results of >> the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there’s a consensus >> to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that everyone agrees is >> really important to get published, but for whatever reason hasn’t yet >> been implemented. >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux >> > > wrote: >> >> Adrian, >> >> Thanks. >> Please see my reactions in-line. >> >> -m >> >> Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >> >> Yeah, thanks Martin. >> >> The slide has... >> >> ==Raising the bar?== >> . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but >> without any implementation (plan) to support >> them >> . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one >> implementation exists before handing the >> document to IESG >> . Thoughts? >> >> The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second >> requires >> implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests >> that you may be >> considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we >> have an opening >> for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be >> flexible. >> >> >> Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. >> But defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. >> I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the >> default being the 1 implem requirement. >> I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags >> It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community >> together with the associated processing procedures. The latter is >> definitely subject to being implemented and as such subject to the >> requirement we are discussing. >> However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in >> support of specific needs. >> So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 >> implem requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). >> >> The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you >> received in the >> room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some >> confusion in the >> discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an >> implementation, >> and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have implementations. >> While, in a >> world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally >> we are not >> significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are busy >> processing >> another. >> >> I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. In >> a situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, >> having one might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the >> process but I think this is one amongst several possible other >> criterion. >> >> Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce >> the pointless, >> unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for >> publication. The >> question is how to achieve that. >> >> The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have >> an implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution >> to reducing the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes >> little sense to push through the standardization process an >> implementable specification but for which no implementation exists. >> The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the last >> possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. >> >> Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of >> potential actions that could be taken to reach the objective, >> actions which are relevant during the I-D life cycle within the WG. >> But I guess this is a broader discussion. >> >> >> >> Adrian (still thinking about this) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org >> ] On Behalf Of Martin >> Vigoureux >> Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 >> To: bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation >> requirement before WG >> last calls >> >> Hi Adrian, >> >> indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation >> has been >> corrected. >> >> The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid >> (over)loading the iesg >> with documents that have no (and could possibly never >> have an) >> implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets >> implemented, it is to >> prioritize them. >> >> The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It >> was on one >> of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >> >> -m >> >> Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >> >> Hi Thomas, >> >> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any >> context. >> >> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe >> summarise the points >> >> in >> >> favour of this approach? >> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some >> spare time.) >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Thu Nov 26 06:13:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7F81B3A1D for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:13:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6b9SAe-lYQQl for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7137C1B3A1A for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:13:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10162; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448547216; x=1449756816; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=99vSxJCjmedmAN21BieH59yv2LL7eXYhmyQRaB//Tyk=; b=gmVVVrSC+15ThT1uo8Te742D3J7QU0wb1dQwjPosViIb1iR/YaJbnjwe 9cEOr02bYCgZ+CVJym2DQA2KqQ/3mbp2rtfUvtcVGGRmw8IOkNzM+4meT FI5MZkbqZk/AtWLtE+O94dKh/GMJTKn1HLbM/Ip7gv6sExGO/OFIMaX/1 U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AqAgCWEldW/5tdJa1bA4M7U28GvX8BD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFkFwqFbgKBMjgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEEAQEBYwgXAgICAQgRBAEBAScHGww?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAgQBEhQFBogPDa9pjmMBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYBIZQhH6EK?= =?us-ascii?q?goHAR0NFgsGFYQXBY1biHwBhSeIDYFcSYN4hzeLGINxAR8BAUKEBHIBhBUCBxc?= =?us-ascii?q?jAYEGAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,347,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="54129586" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 26 Nov 2015 14:13:34 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (xch-rtp-007.cisco.com [64.101.220.147]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAQEDY6k015194 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:13:35 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-009.cisco.com (64.101.220.149) by XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (64.101.220.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:13:34 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-009.cisco.com ([64.101.220.149]) by XCH-RTP-009.cisco.com ([64.101.220.149]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:13:34 -0500 From: "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls Thread-Index: AQHRKFSiMqIMiJK6lU2LlJUMJg570Q== Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:13:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> <56569A3F.7090406@pi.nu> <11585_1448546512_565710D0_11585_7065_9_565710CF.7080000@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <11585_1448546512_565710D0_11585_7065_9_565710CF.7080000@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.174] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:13:39 -0000 Folks, Have we look at our =B3forum=B2 such as OpenStack? Do they have something in place there? Regards, Patrice Patrice Brissette TECHNICAL LEADER.ENGINEERING pbrisset@cisco.com Phone: +1 613 254 3336 Cisco Systems Canada Co. / Les Systemes Cisco Canada CIE Canada Cisco.com Think before you print.This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. Please click here=20 for Company Registration Information. On 2015-11-26, 9:01 AM, "BESS on behalf of thomas.morin@orange.com" wrote: >Hi Loa, > >Loa Andersson : >> One can speculate about the reasons for this, but it seems that often >> the decision whether or not to disclose an implementation is outside >> the mandate for people participating in immediate IETF process. > >I would find it quite unlikely to be in a situation where none of the >vendors implementing a stable spec would have the ability of disclosing >it. I would expect the people who are close to the IETF, if they have >an interest in seeing the spec progress, to be able to spend the time so >that someone else sends an appropriate email to bess@ietf.org. > >-Thomas > > > > >> >> On 2015-11-26 06:57, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>> Based on my experience on both the vendor and operator side, I see some >>> practical problems with this approach: >>> >>> - There are some (many?) operators that won=B9t put drafts into an RFP, >>> only RFCs. >>> >>> - There are some (many?) vendors that won=B9t implement a draft or RFC, >>>no >>> matter how good the quality, unless they have a customer that wants the >>> feature. That could be an existing customer that needs the feature >>> operationally (which could lead to early implementation), or it could >>>be >>> a prospective customer with an RFP. >>> >>> - Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans, and they >>> usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change before >>> publication, requiring a change in the implementation. >>> >>> For all these reasons, unless there=B9s an existing customer that needs= a >>> draft=B9s features to fix an operational problem, it=B9s less common fo= r >>> vendors to implement drafts than RFCs. >>> >>> A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just prior to >>>WG >>> LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the results >>>of >>> the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there=B9s a consensu= s >>> to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that everyone agrees is >>> really important to get published, but for whatever reason hasn=B9t yet >>> been implemented. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Adrian, >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Please see my reactions in-line. >>> >>> -m >>> >>> Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a =E9crit : >>> >>> Yeah, thanks Martin. >>> >>> The slide has... >>> >>> =3D=3DRaising the bar?=3D=3D >>> . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but >>> without any implementation (plan) to support >>> them >>> . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one >>> implementation exists before handing the >>> document to IESG >>> . Thoughts? >>> >>> The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second >>> requires >>> implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests >>> that you may be >>> considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we >>> have an opening >>> for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be >>> flexible. >>> >>> >>> Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. >>> But defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. >>> I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the >>> default being the 1 implem requirement. >>> I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags >>> It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community >>> together with the associated processing procedures. The latter is >>> definitely subject to being implemented and as such subject to the >>> requirement we are discussing. >>> However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in >>> support of specific needs. >>> So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 >>> implem requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). >>> >>> The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you >>> received in the >>> room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some >>> confusion in the >>> discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an >>> implementation, >>> and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have >>>implementations. >>> While, in a >>> world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally >>> we are not >>> significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are >>>busy >>> processing >>> another. >>> >>> I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. >>>In >>> a situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, >>> having one might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the >>> process but I think this is one amongst several possible other >>> criterion. >>> >>> Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce >>> the pointless, >>> unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for >>> publication. The >>> question is how to achieve that. >>> >>> The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have >>> an implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution >>> to reducing the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes >>> little sense to push through the standardization process an >>> implementable specification but for which no implementation exists. >>> The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the >>>last >>> possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. >>> >>> Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of >>> potential actions that could be taken to reach the objective, >>> actions which are relevant during the I-D life cycle within the WG. >>> But I guess this is a broader discussion. >>> >>> >>> >>> Adrian (still thinking about this) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org >>> ] On Behalf Of Martin >>> Vigoureux >>> Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 >>> To: bess@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation >>> requirement before WG >>> last calls >>> >>> Hi Adrian, >>> >>> indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. >>>situation >>> has been >>> corrected. >>> >>> The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid >>> (over)loading the iesg >>> with documents that have no (and could possibly never >>> have an) >>> implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets >>> implemented, it is to >>> prioritize them. >>> >>> The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It >>> was on one >>> of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >>> >>> -m >>> >>> Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a =E9crit : >>> >>> Hi Thomas, >>> >>> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any >>> context. >>> >>> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe >>> summarise the points >>> >>> in >>> >>> favour of this approach? >>> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some >>> spare time.) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Adrian > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ > >Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez >recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages >electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme >ou falsifie. Merci. > >This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged >information that may be protected by law; >they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and >delete this message and its attachments. >As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have >been modified, changed or falsified. >Thank you. > >_______________________________________________ >BESS mailing list >BESS@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Thu Nov 26 06:45:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913971B2CB9 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:45:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i18DfTjX6ztU for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC4291B3A69 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm13.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 08C1A3243A9; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:45:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id DE0FC35C093; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:45:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.197.38.1) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup (10.114.1.183) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:45:09 +0100 To: "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" , "bess@ietf.org" References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> <56569A3F.7090406@pi.nu> <11585_1448546512_565710D0_11585_7065_9_565710CF.7080000@orange.com> From: Organization: Orange Message-ID: <9126_1448549109_56571AF5_9126_304_1_56571AF5.108@orange.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:45:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.197.38.1] X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.24.110316 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:45:14 -0000 Hi Patrice, 2015-11-26, Patrice Brissette (pbrisset): > > Have we look at our ³forum² such as OpenStack? > Do they have something in place there? Producing standards and producing implementations are different things. Openstack produces implementations, which may then may (or may not) become a de-facto standard. In that sense Openstack has a built-in mandatory implementation step before anything can have a chance of becoming a de-facto standard later. The Openstack community also write specifications before implementing things, but these have zero value as standard, and haven't much value before they are actually implementing. Then there is the case of Openstack components having plugin architectures. Neutron comes to mind, obviously. The Openstack has a pretty strong culture of not giving an community-supported kind of official value to an extension of the API that would not be supported by one of the reference opensource drivers. The idea of mandating such a thing as "at least one opensource implementation" for IETF would be interesting to toy with. That would be quite refreshing. :) -Thomas > On 2015-11-26, 9:01 AM, "BESS on behalf of thomas.morin@orange.com" > wrote: > >> Hi Loa, >> >> Loa Andersson : >>> One can speculate about the reasons for this, but it seems that often >>> the decision whether or not to disclose an implementation is outside >>> the mandate for people participating in immediate IETF process. >> >> I would find it quite unlikely to be in a situation where none of the >> vendors implementing a stable spec would have the ability of disclosing >> it. I would expect the people who are close to the IETF, if they have >> an interest in seeing the spec progress, to be able to spend the time so >> that someone else sends an appropriate email to bess@ietf.org. >> >> -Thomas >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On 2015-11-26 06:57, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>>> Based on my experience on both the vendor and operator side, I see some >>>> practical problems with this approach: >>>> >>>> - There are some (many?) operators that won¹t put drafts into an RFP, >>>> only RFCs. >>>> >>>> - There are some (many?) vendors that won¹t implement a draft or RFC, >>>> no >>>> matter how good the quality, unless they have a customer that wants the >>>> feature. That could be an existing customer that needs the feature >>>> operationally (which could lead to early implementation), or it could >>>> be >>>> a prospective customer with an RFP. >>>> >>>> - Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans, and they >>>> usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change before >>>> publication, requiring a change in the implementation. >>>> >>>> For all these reasons, unless there¹s an existing customer that needs a >>>> draft¹s features to fix an operational problem, it¹s less common for >>>> vendors to implement drafts than RFCs. >>>> >>>> A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just prior to >>>> WG >>>> LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the results >>>> of >>>> the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there¹s a consensus >>>> to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that everyone agrees is >>>> really important to get published, but for whatever reason hasn¹t yet >>>> been implemented. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Adrian, >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> Please see my reactions in-line. >>>> >>>> -m >>>> >>>> Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >>>> >>>> Yeah, thanks Martin. >>>> >>>> The slide has... >>>> >>>> ==Raising the bar?== >>>> . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but >>>> without any implementation (plan) to support >>>> them >>>> . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one >>>> implementation exists before handing the >>>> document to IESG >>>> . Thoughts? >>>> >>>> The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second >>>> requires >>>> implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests >>>> that you may be >>>> considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we >>>> have an opening >>>> for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be >>>> flexible. >>>> >>>> >>>> Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. >>>> But defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. >>>> I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the >>>> default being the 1 implem requirement. >>>> I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags >>>> It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community >>>> together with the associated processing procedures. The latter is >>>> definitely subject to being implemented and as such subject to the >>>> requirement we are discussing. >>>> However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in >>>> support of specific needs. >>>> So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 >>>> implem requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). >>>> >>>> The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you >>>> received in the >>>> room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some >>>> confusion in the >>>> discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an >>>> implementation, >>>> and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have >>>> implementations. >>>> While, in a >>>> world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally >>>> we are not >>>> significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are >>>> busy >>>> processing >>>> another. >>>> >>>> I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. >>>> In >>>> a situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, >>>> having one might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the >>>> process but I think this is one amongst several possible other >>>> criterion. >>>> >>>> Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce >>>> the pointless, >>>> unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for >>>> publication. The >>>> question is how to achieve that. >>>> >>>> The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have >>>> an implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution >>>> to reducing the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes >>>> little sense to push through the standardization process an >>>> implementable specification but for which no implementation exists. >>>> The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the >>>> last >>>> possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. >>>> >>>> Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of >>>> potential actions that could be taken to reach the objective, >>>> actions which are relevant during the I-D life cycle within the WG. >>>> But I guess this is a broader discussion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Adrian (still thinking about this) >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org >>>> ] On Behalf Of Martin >>>> Vigoureux >>>> Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 >>>> To: bess@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation >>>> requirement before WG >>>> last calls >>>> >>>> Hi Adrian, >>>> >>>> indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. >>>> situation >>>> has been >>>> corrected. >>>> >>>> The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid >>>> (over)loading the iesg >>>> with documents that have no (and could possibly never >>>> have an) >>>> implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets >>>> implemented, it is to >>>> prioritize them. >>>> >>>> The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It >>>> was on one >>>> of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >>>> >>>> -m >>>> >>>> Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >>>> >>>> Hi Thomas, >>>> >>>> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any >>>> context. >>>> >>>> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe >>>> summarise the points >>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>> favour of this approach? >>>> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some >>>> spare time.) >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Adrian >> >> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Thu Nov 26 09:01:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B3C1B2C0C for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:01:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NnMYQNihBxLE for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96ADD1B2C0B for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 09:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAQH14NO013016 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 17:01:04 GMT Received: from 950129200 ([79.141.128.249]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAQH127s012978 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 17:01:03 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: References: <565427E1.9070803@orange.com> <5724D47D-455C-4EEB-8407-244A29759499@gmail.com> <5656D5CB.6070103@alcatel-lucent.com> <56570E11.2080803@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <56570E11.2080803@orange.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 17:01:03 -0000 Message-ID: <08ad01d1286c$092a6f50$1b7f4df0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKwGmMq3Zuu8CZowvV2ymdmXMMhqQJcr8N9Agg3bhoB9giMcpy9ygoQ Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-21966.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--27.953-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--27.953-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: qsaWi0FWcYs8YF4z/F+D+Qz4VsCc1YW+knjBMY7iKBIJW4Re2U2py5nn N8Z0fyTfk976qgg7ZtjOSD0uhp9xh0JN4nwiL5M6iVYleIBIrY8Zj1j4BNp7XFVgGGTe6VdAU8p DiDQQ0FOxEhbIZHU5p9PaRTclYAzXDtBt+r/CzCrM1jffIgQXho9IRW0oLFoctXl9IxEPXOoTfH gCRmIVyBgmUp5cwG5qEAdwx46S6XVoJV1jLhs/0KfXIl6Cf6VrfkuZtv/FS5ocwojTLz1sEmLpI IQT+xImsuY9nD7xhFIQDZh9tV+I0UKX0MSwedJtwzn/ckjHeJOZNXNR6/R1gKxp9wUsWVTUXVCm jmk3KwzUshhR0/k5TsML5wRS9h/r4lWkeDQRdw5rRpSjNebQNvi4nVERfgwd5WzwM2rTaEIezV0 lIgz9uuKpl4aK/BiWr3/9rMU/sBdLxlXkDCfszAhWgIsZuXlPQPCWRE0Lo8K638ZUY6gSdyNjd1 p3yfdBqI7In5QR4HqMk+MnQTv2Xx+XIQtqN33itqLtKRVDGDkrvS9y1NIAB50j8OKRnVQ82MC6F t34NGzBwfXjTb7Bv+xwkgx82Ti8XTMLnxLtximdVNZaI2n6/0GV2YNiPCWm51ONI4UL++qjxYyR Ba/qJaEwgORH8p/AjaPj0W1qn0SQZS2ujCtcuA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 17:01:09 -0000 Perhaps it is time to recall RFC 6982. While that RFC says nothing about setting hurdles (so that debate needs = to continue) it does provide a lightweight way of tracking = implementations and noting what bits of I-Ds have been implemented. Yaron and I can report mixed results from the RFC so far: sometime there = has been a degree of enthusiasm to report implementations (free = marketing?) while other times implementations that we know are out there = have sullenly refused to present details for inclusion in I-Ds. Draw = your own conclusions :-) Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Morin > Sent: 26 November 2015 13:50 > To: bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement = before WG > last calls >=20 > Kireeti, Martin, >=20 > Any data related to a serious implementation (even a beta without a > shipping date), would I think be convincing enough. > "release x.y @shipping date d" was simply provided as a possible = answer, > not of the minimum requirement to be convincing. >=20 > As Martin said we need more than "I am aware of an implementation". > I would say we also need more than "we plan to implement". >=20 > There are cases where we may need more detailed data. > Take for instance the case of a draft that needs specific dataplane > support: would we accept as convincing enough an implementation on a > software-only platform, in the absence of any vendor planning to > implement on hardware ? >=20 > -Thomas >=20 >=20 >=20 > Martin Vigoureux : > > Hello Kireeti, > > > > thanks for your inputs. > > I understand the challenge that "release x.y @shipping date d" might > > pose. What we want, is to go beyond the "I am aware of an > > implementation" type of response. It might currently be sufficient > > with regards to the shepherd write-up question, but won't be any = more > > if we introduce the requirement. We'd like to have tangible > > information. Giving "details on how much of the spec was = implemented" > > is clearly going in that direction. > > > > -m > > > > Le 26/11/2015 02:26, Kireeti Kompella a =C3=A9crit : > >> Sounds like a good idea to me. One tweak: having an official = "release > >> x.y @shipping date d" is unlikely for a draft. The value of one > >> implementation (vs more) is that it shows that a spec is > >> implementable and reasonably complete. So, this should be the = focus, > >> with details on how much of the spec was implemented. Shipping = plans > >> should be totally optional. > >> > >> Note that even an experimental implementation takes effort, is = likely > >> to become official, and shows a degree of seriousness of the part = of > >> the implementor. Asking for greater commitment at WGLC is (imho) > >> asking too much. > >> > >> Kireeti > >> > >>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 01:03, Thomas Morin > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello everyone, > >>> > >>> Following the positive feedback received during BESS meeting in > >>> Yokohama about introducing a one-implementation requirement in = BESS, > >>> we propose to do the following for future WG last calls: > >>> > >>> As a prerequisite before doing a working group last call on a > >>> document, the chairs will ask the working group for known > >>> implementations of the specifications; a relatively detailed level > >>> of information will be required (e.g. "release x.y of solution z > >>> shipping date d", "all features implemented", "partial > >>> implementation only", etc.) and everyone will be invited to reply > >>> (not only co-authors of the specifications); the chairs will then = do > >>> the working group last call if satisfying information was provided > >>> on at least one implementation. > >>> > >>> We are open for comments on this proposal until December 7th. > >>> > >>> Martin & Thomas >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Thu Nov 26 18:15:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45C41B30BA for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 18:15:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5GfIC-pU-pWp for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 18:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E286B1B30B9 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 18:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (unknown [49.149.184.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D74B418013CB; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 03:15:36 +0100 (CET) To: thomas.morin@orange.com, bess@ietf.org References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <057501d12716$2c7c4340$8574c9c0$@olddog.co.uk> <565633EC.2080700@alcatel-lucent.com> <56569A3F.7090406@pi.nu> <11585_1448546512_565710D0_11585_7065_9_565710CF.7080000@orange.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <5657BCBF.8040007@pi.nu> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:15:27 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <11585_1448546512_565710D0_11585_7065_9_565710CF.7080000@orange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 02:15:43 -0000 Thomas, On 2015-11-26 22:01, thomas.morin@orange.com wrote: > Hi Loa, > > Loa Andersson : >> One can speculate about the reasons for this, but it seems that often >> the decision whether or not to disclose an implementation is outside >> the mandate for people participating in immediate IETF process. > > I would find it quite unlikely to be in a situation where none of the > vendors implementing a stable spec would have the ability of disclosing > it. I would expect the people who are close to the IETF, if they have > an interest in seeing the spec progress, to be able to spend the time so > that someone else sends an appropriate email to bess@ietf.org. Well - I'm not questioning the ability. What I've said that there might be situations where a vendor are unwilling to disclose. And that as far as I understand it this most often has nothing to do with the IETF process. To quote Adrian: "...implementations that we know are out there have sullenly refused to present details for inclusion in I-Ds". I've been watching demos (e.g. at MPLS conferences, where it is obvious that drafts that we are about to ask for publication for (or just have) must be part of the demo. Asking the "people who are close to the IETF" just result in "not my decision"! Having said that I still support what you are doing, only that we should be careful not to get our expectations up to high based on this action. /Loa > > -Thomas > > > > >> >> On 2015-11-26 06:57, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>> Based on my experience on both the vendor and operator side, I see some >>> practical problems with this approach: >>> >>> - There are some (many?) operators that won’t put drafts into an RFP, >>> only RFCs. >>> >>> - There are some (many?) vendors that won’t implement a draft or RFC, no >>> matter how good the quality, unless they have a customer that wants the >>> feature. That could be an existing customer that needs the feature >>> operationally (which could lead to early implementation), or it could be >>> a prospective customer with an RFP. >>> >>> - Vendors, of course, prioritize their implementation plans, and they >>> usually put RFCs ahead of drafts, since drafts could change before >>> publication, requiring a change in the implementation. >>> >>> For all these reasons, unless there’s an existing customer that needs a >>> draft’s features to fix an operational problem, it’s less common for >>> vendors to implement drafts than RFCs. >>> >>> A better approach might be to do an implementation poll just prior to WG >>> LC (including implementation plans). The WG can then take the results of >>> the poll into consideration during WG LC to see if there’s a consensus >>> to send it to the IESG. There could be a draft that everyone agrees is >>> really important to get published, but for whatever reason hasn’t yet >>> been implemented. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Martin Vigoureux >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Adrian, >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Please see my reactions in-line. >>> >>> -m >>> >>> Le 25/11/2015 01:13, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >>> >>> Yeah, thanks Martin. >>> >>> The slide has... >>> >>> ==Raising the bar?== >>> . Some documents are being pushed to IESG but >>> without any implementation (plan) to support >>> them >>> . We are thinking of "requiring" that at least one >>> implementation exists before handing the >>> document to IESG >>> . Thoughts? >>> >>> The first bullet allows for a plan to implement, the second >>> requires >>> implementation. The use of quotes in the second bullet suggests >>> that you may be >>> considering that the requirement may be flexible. Obviously we >>> have an opening >>> for discussion, but I wonder how you would decide when to be >>> flexible. >>> >>> >>> Good question :-) Indeed, the intent is to not be blindly strict. >>> But defining the margins of flexibility is the tricky part then. >>> I am pretty sure that this will be on a case by case with the >>> default being the 1 implem requirement. >>> I'll take an example: draft-ietf-bess-pta-flags >>> It defines 2 registries as well as a new BGP Extended Community >>> together with the associated processing procedures. The latter is >>> definitely subject to being implemented and as such subject to the >>> requirement we are discussing. >>> However, what this document really does is to define a mechanism in >>> support of specific needs. >>> So I think that this could be a case where we could skip the 1 >>> implem requirement (but apply it to the specs that use pta-flags). >>> >>> The minutes are a good indication of the level of support you >>> received in the >>> room, but not a deep discussion :-) There seems to be some >>> confusion in the >>> discussion between expediting (or unblocking) I-Ds that have an >>> implementation, >>> and delaying (or blocking) I-Ds that don't have implementations. >>> While, in a >>> world of limited resources, the two things are related, ideally >>> we are not >>> significantly gating the progress of one I-D because we are busy >>> processing >>> another. >>> >>> I'd say there are different points of view rather than confusion. In >>> a situation where implementations are not considered mandatory, >>> having one might indeed be a criteria for moving faster through the >>> process but I think this is one amongst several possible other >>> criterion. >>> >>> Now, I really, really support your motivation, viz. to reduce >>> the pointless, >>> unreviewed, unnecessary, or substandard drafts being sent for >>> publication. The >>> question is how to achieve that. >>> >>> The primary intent here is to send to IESG only documents that have >>> an implementation. It makes their case stronger, is a contribution >>> to reducing the load on IESG's shoulders, and also it anyway makes >>> little sense to push through the standardization process an >>> implementable specification but for which no implementation exists. >>> The moment to submit to iesg is definitely a good time (and the last >>> possible from a chair's perspective) to think about that. >>> >>> Now, your two sentences above open the door to a broader set of >>> potential actions that could be taken to reach the objective, >>> actions which are relevant during the I-D life cycle within the WG. >>> But I guess this is a broader discussion. >>> >>> >>> >>> Adrian (still thinking about this) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org >>> ] On Behalf Of Martin >>> Vigoureux >>> Sent: 24 November 2015 23:17 >>> To: bess@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation >>> requirement before WG >>> last calls >>> >>> Hi Adrian, >>> >>> indeed, minutes should have been available sooner. situation >>> has been >>> corrected. >>> >>> The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid >>> (over)loading the iesg >>> with documents that have no (and could possibly never >>> have an) >>> implementation. Or, at least, if every spec gets >>> implemented, it is to >>> prioritize them. >>> >>> The discussion happened at the beginning of the meeting. It >>> was on one >>> of the slides I have presented as part of the WG status. >>> >>> -m >>> >>> Le 24/11/2015 17:07, Adrian Farrel a écrit : >>> >>> Hi Thomas, >>> >>> It's really hard to enter this discussion with any >>> context. >>> >>> Could you post the minutes from the meeting and maybe >>> summarise the points >>> >>> in >>> >>> favour of this approach? >>> (Of course, I can listen to the audio when I have some >>> spare time.) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Adrian > > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez > recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages > electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme > ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged > information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and > delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have > been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Fri Nov 27 18:03:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietf.org Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFEB1B2F41; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 18:03:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.11.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151128020341.25057.30298.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 18:03:41 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-06.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 02:03:41 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled Services Working Group of the IETF. Title : Virtual Subnet: A BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based Subnet Extension Solution Authors : Xiaohu Xu Robert Raszuk Christian Jacquenet Truman Boyes Brendan Fee Filename : draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-06.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2015-11-27 Abstract: This document describes a BGP/MPLS IP VPN-based subnet extension solution referred to as Virtual Subnet, which can be used for building Layer 3 network virtualization overlays within and/or between data centers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-virtual-subnet-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Nov 29 22:20:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA3D1A87DE for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:20:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.175 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.175 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UZdvRytJgZ_a for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F9EC1A87CE for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id D2C2E7F34EED6; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 06:19:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAU6JujE011632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 30 Nov 2015 07:19:57 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.183]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 07:19:56 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" To: sudeep g ggg , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJ4l72x+1NnQeAk6d1jizSQ/nb56y+pgA 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Mzk7aHR0cDovL3RyYWNrLnJlZGlmZi5jb20vY2xpY2s/dXJsPV9fX2h0dHA6Ly9idXNpbmVzc2Vt YWlsLnJlZGlmZi5jb20vY29tcGFueS1lbWFpbC1ob3N0aW5nLXNlcnZpY2VzP3NjX2NpZD1zaWdu YXR1cmUtMjMtOS0xM19fXyZhbXA7Y21wPXNpZ25hdHVyZS0yMy05LTEzJmFtcDtsbms9bXlwYWdl bG9nb3V0JmFtcDtuc3J2MT1ob3N0JiMzOTsiIHZhbHVlPSJLbm93IG1vcmUgJmd0OyI+IDwvaW5w dXQ+IC0tPjwvdGQ+DQo8L3RyPg0KPC90Ym9keT4NCjwvdGFibGU+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0K PC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9zcGFuPg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_F84B433E0E474484BC1E10CC272A7AA9alcatellucentcom_-- From nobody Mon Nov 30 04:52:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA91D1A886F for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 04:52:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.901 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TRrBvwNeCn2X for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 04:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (f4mail-235-247.rediffmail.com [202.137.235.247]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17C011A888B for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 04:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4440 invoked by uid 510); 30 Nov 2015 12:52:49 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=redf; d=rediffmail.com; b=kYTARo3pu5yn3kVI3NMaeb6p9D+QsDfw3titPaWF0dsjko2szw6BULccft6lh+wq5OdSaMAfnEp7TYJg8RE4/CwjUEw3NB3rBb+MDIK0Vu1XY5NoVTviJagrsmx4wfP92M9FEHPJ64tao9edYP+RzM7PZHe4Xs+Q0+1dmIXNeO4= ; x-m-msg: asd54ad564ad7aa6sd5as6d5; a6da7d6asas6dasd77; 5dad65ad5sd; X-OUT-VDRT-SpamState: 0\LEGIT X-OUT-VDRT-SpamScore: 20 X-OUT-VDRT-SpamCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekhedrkeejgdegjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuhdfknhhvihhsihgslhgvucifohhrughsucdlvddtmdenucfjughrpeffggfvkfgjshfuhfgtsegrtderredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfshhuuggvvghpuchguchgghhgfdcuoehsuhguhhhinhhjrggtohgssehrvgguihhffhhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrvgguihhffhdrtghomhenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuth X-Remote-IP: 116.197.184.13 X-REDF-OSEN: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com Date: 30 Nov 2015 12:52:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Received: from unknown 116.197.184.13 by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 30 Nov 2015 12:52:48 -0000 X-Senderscore: D=0&S=0 Message-ID: <1448864399.S.15033.9722.f4-234-225.1448887968.4303@webmail.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: Sender: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com From: "sudeep g ggg" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_11f4072177c73e6b34f504f9e4d6ad90" Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] =?utf-8?q?REG=3A_draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02?= X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 12:52:57 -0000 --=_11f4072177c73e6b34f504f9e4d6ad90 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jorge, Your point,AC per Vlan, suppose I want to provision for my customer as vlan bundle then how to handle. Kindly explain. Regards, Sudhin On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:49:59 +0530 "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" wrote > Hi Sudhin, Please see in-line. Thanks. Jorge From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 2:58 PM To: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] REG: draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02 Respected Authors, I had gone through the draft at high level,I am happy to see a real provider provisioning issues addressed in your draft. Much appreciated. Some key highlights in your draft. 1. No changes. 2. Using existing features to address a problem. 3. Addresses provisioning issues. [JORGE] not only provisioning issues but also ‘logical’ failures like an "Attachment Circuit†going oper-down due to OAM or admin shutdown. How ever I have following queries. May I know how to deal with vlan provisioning issues like one PE will have vlan 2,3,4 and other PE will have 3,4 this will end up in both PE's as DF correct me if I am wrong, you use type 1 Ad per ES and EVI for DF election, how about vlan issues. [JORGE] the draft talks about how to influence the DF election based on the status of an “Attachment Circuit (AC)â€. For VLAN-based services, a customer VID equals an AC (and there is a single VLAN per EVI per ES), hence in this case you can actually catch VLAN provisioning mistakes, i.e. if you don’t provision VLAN 2 in PE1, PE1 won’t ever send the AD per EVI route for that VLAN, hence PE1 won’t be elected the DF within the ES in any PE using the AD per-EVI route in the DF election. May I know how to handle transient loop during 3 seconds period during DF election.May I know the state of PE during the DF election, clarity required[humble opinion]. [JORGE] the draft is not changing the DF election itself (where, by the way, there is no transient loops). It is only removing PEs from the candidate DF list for a given EVI based on the presence of the AD per-EVI route. All the rest of the RFC7432 procedures are kept intact. This seems to be a good customer focused solution. I appreciate it.[please note: this is my humble opinion as an individual not representing any one] Regards, Sudhin Jacob Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email. Know More > --=_11f4072177c73e6b34f504f9e4d6ad90 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jorge,

Your point,AC per Vlan, suppose I want to provision for my customer as vla= n bundle then how to handle. Kindly explain.

Regards,
Sudhin

On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:49:59 +0530 "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" wrote
>






Hi Sudhin,



Please see in-line.
Thanks.
Jorge










From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg

Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 2:58 PM

To: "bess@ietf.org"

Subject: [bess] REG: draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02







Respected Authors,



I had gone through the draft at high level,I am happy to see a real provide= r provisioning issues addressed in your draft. Much appreciated.



Some key highlights in your draft.



1. No changes.

2. Using existing features to address a problem.

3. Addresses provisioning issues.






[JORGE] not only provisioning issues but also =E2=80=98logical=E2=80=99 fai= lures like an "Attachment Circuit=E2=80=9D going oper-down due to OAM or ad= min shutdown.










How ever I have following queries.



May I know how to deal with vlan provisioning issues like one PE will have = vlan 2,3,4 and other PE will have 3,4 this will end up in both PE's as DF c= orrect me if I am wrong, you use type 1 Ad per ES and EVI for DF election, = how about vlan issues.






[JORGE] the draft talks about how to influence the DF election based on the= status of an =E2=80=9CAttachment Circuit (AC)=E2=80=9D. For VLAN-based ser= vices, a customer VID equals an AC (and there is a single VLAN per EVI per = ES), hence in this case you can actually catch
VLAN provisioning mistakes, i.e. if you don=E2=80=99t provision VLAN 2 in = PE1, PE1 won=E2=80=99t ever send the AD per EVI route for that VLAN, hence = PE1 won=E2=80=99t be elected the DF within the ES in any PE using the AD pe= r-EVI route in the DF election.










May I know how to handle transient loop during 3 seconds period during DF e= lection.May I know the state of PE during the DF election, clarity required= [humble opinion].






[JORGE] the draft is not changing the DF election itself (where, by the way= , there is no transient loops). It is only removing PEs from the candidate = DF list for a given EVI based on the presence of the AD per-EVI route. All = the rest of the RFC7432 procedures
are kept intact.












This seems to be a good customer focused solution. I appreciate it.[please = note: this is my humble opinion as an individual not representing any one]<= br />


Regards,

Sudhin Jacob




























Get your own

FREE website,
FREE domain &
FREE mobile app with Company email.

Know
More >










Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email.  
Know More >
--=_11f4072177c73e6b34f504f9e4d6ad90-- From nobody Mon Nov 30 05:32:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEBE1ACCFF for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:32:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SNtkro3w7jst for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (f4mail-235-121.rediffmail.com [202.137.235.121]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56F421ACD0C for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11279 invoked by uid 510); 30 Nov 2015 13:32:00 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=redf; d=rediffmail.com; b=KjuHIkvQcOw/HSXYosVAA228CPzL58mErtRCBz3i3O3umyxRfftTObpUvfcOazxcQO61wz9y4TgISO2Gf+mVNy3T+J8atjlrSLVFrQmq7k5zL29XaKy6iTncxTSF+rGNGdOJTkjgWPeQZagvvQVc31l5HXhmgptvKUBVK2i8AhY= ; x-m-msg: asd54ad564ad7aa6sd5as6d5; a6da7d6asas6dasd77; 5dad65ad5sd; X-OUT-VDRT-SpamState: 0\LEGIT X-OUT-VDRT-SpamScore: 20 X-OUT-VDRT-SpamCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrfeekhedrkeejgdehiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuhdfknhhvihhsihgslhgvucifohhrughsucdlvddtmdenucfjughrpeffggfvkfgjshfuhfgtsegrtderredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfshhuuggvvghpuchguchgghhgfdcuoehsuhguhhhinhhjrggtohgssehrvgguihhffhhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrvgguihhffhdrtghomhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhht X-Remote-IP: 116.197.184.13 X-REDF-OSEN: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com Date: 30 Nov 2015 13:32:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Received: from unknown 116.197.184.13 by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 30 Nov 2015 13:32:00 -0000 X-Senderscore: D=0&S=0 Message-ID: <1448864409.S.17864.12366.f4-234-225.1448890320.11092@webmail.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: Sender: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com From: "sudeep g ggg" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_3c79701cb91e5c95368e464a2b4554b5" Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] =?utf-8?q?REG=3A_draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02?= X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:32:09 -0000 --=_3c79701cb91e5c95368e464a2b4554b5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jorge, Section 2.1.1. Current DF election procedure and AC failures If AC2 is accidentally shutdown or even not configured, CE12 traffic will be impacted. In case of all-active multi-homing, only the BUM traffic to CE12 will be impacted, whereas for single-active multi-homing all the traffic to/from CE12 will be discarded. This is due to the fact that a logical failure in PE-2 AC2 will not trigger an ES route withdrawn for ESI12 (since there are still other ACs active on ESI12) and therefore PE-1 will not re-run the DF election procedures. In Single Active a sub interface goes down, it will send a type 4 withdrawal and other PE will become DF based. This is taken care in SA but AA it makes sense. How about the 3 second timer, there will be a loop if there is transition of PE's moving to DF to NON DF when a new PE as added or a link failure. During this time, may I know how the traffic is handled because RFC is not clear about that period. How you are going to tackle that issue.During this transition period if both PE starts forwarding the traffic there will be a loop, how to address that. If you are using AC per Vlan but customers require vlan bundle, some times local switching how to handle those situations. Kindly clarify. Correct me if I am wrong. Regards, Sudhin On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:50:09 +0530 "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" wrote > Hi Sudhin, Please see in-line. Thanks. Jorge From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 2:58 PM To: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: [bess] REG: draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02 Respected Authors, I had gone through the draft at high level,I am happy to see a real provider provisioning issues addressed in your draft. Much appreciated. Some key highlights in your draft. 1. No changes. 2. Using existing features to address a problem. 3. Addresses provisioning issues. [JORGE] not only provisioning issues but also ‘logical’ failures like an "Attachment Circuit†going oper-down due to OAM or admin shutdown. How ever I have following queries. May I know how to deal with vlan provisioning issues like one PE will have vlan 2,3,4 and other PE will have 3,4 this will end up in both PE's as DF correct me if I am wrong, you use type 1 Ad per ES and EVI for DF election, how about vlan issues. [JORGE] the draft talks about how to influence the DF election based on the status of an “Attachment Circuit (AC)â€. For VLAN-based services, a customer VID equals an AC (and there is a single VLAN per EVI per ES), hence in this case you can actually catch VLAN provisioning mistakes, i.e. if you don’t provision VLAN 2 in PE1, PE1 won’t ever send the AD per EVI route for that VLAN, hence PE1 won’t be elected the DF within the ES in any PE using the AD per-EVI route in the DF election. May I know how to handle transient loop during 3 seconds period during DF election.May I know the state of PE during the DF election, clarity required[humble opinion]. [JORGE] the draft is not changing the DF election itself (where, by the way, there is no transient loops). It is only removing PEs from the candidate DF list for a given EVI based on the presence of the AD per-EVI route. All the rest of the RFC7432 procedures are kept intact. This seems to be a good customer focused solution. I appreciate it.[please note: this is my humble opinion as an individual not representing any one] Regards, Sudhin Jacob Get your own FREE website, FREE domain & FREE mobile app with Company email. Know More > _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess --=_3c79701cb91e5c95368e464a2b4554b5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jorge,

Section 2.1.1. Current DF election procedure and AC failures

If AC2 is accidentally shutdown or even not configured, CE12
traffic will be impacted. In case of all-active multi-homing, only
the BUM traffic to CE12 will be impacted, whereas for single-active
multi-homing all the traffic to/from CE12 will be discarded. This is
due to the fact that a logical failure in PE-2 AC2 will not trigger
an ES route withdrawn for ESI12 (since there are still other ACs
active on ESI12) and therefore PE-1 will not re-run the DF election
procedures.

In Single Active a sub interface goes down, it will send a type 4 withdrawa= l and other PE will become DF based. This is taken care in SA but AA it mak= es sense.

How about the 3 second timer, there will be a loop if there is transition o= f PE's moving to DF to NON DF when a new PE as added or a link failure. Dur= ing this time, may I know how the traffic is handled because RFC is not cle= ar about that period. How you are going to tackle that issue.During this tr= ansition period if both PE starts forwarding the traffic there will be a lo= op, how to address that.

If you are using AC per Vlan but customers require vlan bundle, some times = local switching how to handle those situations. Kindly clarify.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Regards,
Sudhin







On Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:50:09 +0530 "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" wrote
>






Hi Sudhin,



Please see in-line.
Thanks.
Jorge










From: BESS on behalf of sudeep g ggg

Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 2:58 PM

To: "bess@ietf.org"

Subject: [bess] REG: draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02







Respected Authors,



I had gone through the draft at high level,I am happy to see a real provide= r provisioning issues addressed in your draft. Much appreciated.



Some key highlights in your draft.



1. No changes.

2. Using existing features to address a problem.

3. Addresses provisioning issues.






[JORGE] not only provisioning issues but also =E2=80=98logical=E2=80=99 fai= lures like an "Attachment Circuit=E2=80=9D going oper-down due to OAM or ad= min shutdown.










How ever I have following queries.



May I know how to deal with vlan provisioning issues like one PE will have = vlan 2,3,4 and other PE will have 3,4 this will end up in both PE's as DF c= orrect me if I am wrong, you use type 1 Ad per ES and EVI for DF election, = how about vlan issues.






[JORGE] the draft talks about how to influence the DF election based on the= status of an =E2=80=9CAttachment Circuit (AC)=E2=80=9D. For VLAN-based ser= vices, a customer VID equals an AC (and there is a single VLAN per EVI per = ES), hence in this case you can actually catch
VLAN provisioning mistakes, i.e. if you don=E2=80=99t provision VLAN 2 in = PE1, PE1 won=E2=80=99t ever send the AD per EVI route for that VLAN, hence = PE1 won=E2=80=99t be elected the DF within the ES in any PE using the AD pe= r-EVI route in the DF election.










May I know how to handle transient loop during 3 seconds period during DF e= lection.May I know the state of PE during the DF election, clarity required= [humble opinion].






[JORGE] the draft is not changing the DF election itself (where, by the way= , there is no transient loops). It is only removing PEs from the candidate = DF list for a given EVI based on the presence of the AD per-EVI route. All = the rest of the RFC7432 procedures
are kept intact.












This seems to be a good customer focused solution. I appreciate it.[please = note: this is my humble opinion as an individual not representing any one]<= br />


Regards,

Sudhin Jacob




























Get your own

FREE website,
FREE domain &
FREE mobile app with Company email.

Know
More >









_______________________________________________

BESS mailing list

BESS@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess


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--=_3c79701cb91e5c95368e464a2b4554b5-- From nobody Mon Nov 30 05:52:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B90861ACD5C for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:52:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cpLJV6aGsTlx for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E4D71ACD55 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 05:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 43FD8503414A8; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:51:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAUDpwg7023055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:51:58 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.1.183]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:51:58 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Jorge)" To: sudeep g ggg Thread-Topic: [bess] REG: draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02 Thread-Index: AQHRJ4l72x+1NnQeAk6d1jizSQ/nb56y+pgAgAGBmoCAAB3+AA== Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:51:57 +0000 Message-ID: <10298402-141C-436D-9FF1-C8A754A75799@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <1448864399.S.15033.9722.f4-234-225.1448887968.4303@webmail.rediffmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1448864399.S.15033.9722.f4-234-225.1448887968.4303@webmail.rediffmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_10298402141C436D9FF1C8A754A75799alcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] REG: draft-rabadan-bess-evpn-ac-df-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:52:05 -0000 --_000_10298402141C436D9FF1C8A754A75799alcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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Halpern" Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:32:58 -0000 I am very strongly opposed to this "proposal". It takes the WG in the wrong direction, and attempts explicitly to undo the work that led to RFC4794, which eliminated some of the time-wasting requirements that served only to further extend the already slow IETF process. The right time to preserve a specification in an archived form (such as an RFC) is when the specification has stabilized. Implementation and deployment sometimes do not occur for years afterward, at which time the the original authors and/or editors of the specification might have moved on to other pursuits. In WGs that do have implementation requirements, specification that were implemented years ago often sit around as internet-drafts for extended periods of time, just because no one is available to restart the standardization process. Often the drafts expire, and sometimes remain expired for years after they've been deployed. This creates considerable confusion about whether the drafts have been abandoned. There is also the point that Andy has raised, that delaying publication may also delay deployment. I believe it is improper for the IETF to be demanding details about implementations, release cycles, and release dates. It should be noted that it becomes quite difficult to gather this sort of information about a draft that has been sitting around for years, especially if that draft has has been implemented and deployed piecemeal. There are also some process issues to discuss. > [Martin] the point of our e-mail is to continue the discussion on the > list. We explicitly say that this is a proposal and that we are open > to comments. The email in question certainly suggests that the WG chairs have already made a decision to impose a new requirement, but are allowing two weeks (during what is a holiday season for many) for "discussion" before they announce that there is a consensus in favor of their proposal. This does not seem like an appropriate approach, and imho would be worthy of appeal. The routing area used to have more implementation requirements, but after extensive discussion in 2006 (discussion lasting more than two weeks), these requirements were eliminated by RFC4794. The reason is clear enough. Quoting RFC4794: "Today, one of the big problems the IETF faces is timeliness. Applying additional rules to a certain class of protocols hurts the IETF's ability to publish specifications in a timely manner." I don't think anything has changed since the topic was discussed in 2006. We should be looking for ways to speed up the process, not looking for even more ways to slow it down. > [Adrian] To be clear, the WG is allowed to make a decision to do > this. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc4794/ Are you referring to the following paragraph: Some working groups within the Routing Area have developed procedures, based on RFC 1264, to require implementations before forwarding a document to the IESG. This action does not prevent those working groups from continuing with these procedures if the working group prefers to work this way. We encourage working groups to put measures in place to improve the quality of their output. I don't see that this gives individual WGs (not to mention WG chairs) any right to impose arbitrary new rules. It only allows them to keep existing rules. The most it says about allowing the creation of new rules is: that does not prohibit the Routing Area Directors from requiring implementation and/or operational experience though this presumably would also be subject to appeal if it were applied arbitrarily. > [Martin] The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid > (over)loading the iesg with documents that have no (and could > possibly never have an) implementation. I don't think the problem of AD workload can be addressed by having a single WG add more delay to its process. Certainly I don't agree that the IESG workload problem should be addressed by having the IETF do less work. From nobody Mon Nov 30 17:35:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5841D1B35E7 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:35:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id odGNVgD2QUNE for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5AA81B35E5 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CBA29649; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 01:35:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 01:35:11 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.64]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:35:08 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Eric C Rosen , Martin Vigoureux , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls Thread-Index: AdEm0jPwU7p9eG+fQt6twIyN3O8xpv//8euAgAAPKACAAAJkgIAA2NSAgAgB4YD//td+IA== Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 01:35:07 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB53054@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <04a401d126d2$3791e170$a6b5a450$@olddog.co.uk> <5654EFEB.4000101@alcatel-lucent.com> <5654FCA2.5040304@joelhalpern.com> <5655B487.9020606@alcatel-lucent.com> <565C6C17.3010709@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <565C6C17.3010709@juniper.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.55] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0202.565CF950.010B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.8.64, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 7cc28b5137d9ea64d844e6f500a5b962 Archived-At: Cc: Benson Schliesser , "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before WG last calls X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 01:35:19 -0000 I fully agree with Eric's points. In addition to the side-effects Eric had = raised, I think it may intensify the monopolization in specification due to= the implementation requirement before WG LC. For example, some giants coul= d afford the implementation of whatever specifications they had proposed. H= owever, for SMEs, they tend to start the implementation only when the speci= fication has been standardized (e.g., RFC publishment). Best regards, Xiaohu > -----Original Message----- > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 11:33 PM > To: Martin Vigoureux; bess@ietf.org > Cc: Benson Schliesser; Joel M. Halpern > Subject: Re: [bess] Introducing a one-implementation requirement before W= G > last calls >=20 > I am very strongly opposed to this "proposal". >=20 > It takes the WG in the wrong direction, and attempts explicitly to undo t= he work > that led to RFC4794, which eliminated some of the time-wasting requiremen= ts > that served only to further extend the already slow IETF process. >=20 > The right time to preserve a specification in an archived form (such as a= n RFC) is > when the specification has stabilized. Implementation and deployment > sometimes do not occur for years afterward, at which time the the origina= l > authors and/or editors of the specification might have moved on to other > pursuits. In WGs that do have implementation requirements, specification = that > were implemented years ago often sit around as internet-drafts for extend= ed > periods of time, just because no one is available to restart the standard= ization > process. Often the drafts expire, and sometimes remain expired for years = after > they've been deployed. This creates considerable confusion about whether = the > drafts have been abandoned. >=20 > There is also the point that Andy has raised, that delaying publication m= ay also > delay deployment. >=20 > I believe it is improper for the IETF to be demanding details about > implementations, release cycles, and release dates. It should be noted t= hat it > becomes quite difficult to gather this sort of information about a draft = that has > been sitting around for years, especially if that draft has has been impl= emented > and deployed piecemeal. >=20 > There are also some process issues to discuss. >=20 > > [Martin] the point of our e-mail is to continue the discussion on the > > list. We explicitly say that this is a proposal and that we are open > > to comments. >=20 > The email in question certainly suggests that the WG chairs have already = made a > decision to impose a new requirement, but are allowing two weeks (during = what > is a holiday season for many) for "discussion" before they announce that = there is > a consensus in favor of their proposal. This does not seem like an appro= priate > approach, and imho would be worthy of appeal. >=20 > The routing area used to have more implementation requirements, but after > extensive discussion in 2006 (discussion lasting more than two weeks), th= ese > requirements were eliminated by RFC4794. The reason is clear enough. > Quoting RFC4794: >=20 > "Today, one of the big problems the IETF faces is timeliness. > Applying additional rules to a certain class of protocols hurts the > IETF's ability to publish specifications in a timely manner." >=20 > I don't think anything has changed since the topic was discussed in 2006.= We > should be looking for ways to speed up the process, not looking for even = more > ways to slow it down. >=20 > > [Adrian] To be clear, the WG is allowed to make a decision to do this. > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc4794/ >=20 > Are you referring to the following paragraph: >=20 > Some working groups within the Routing Area have developed > procedures, based on RFC 1264, to require implementations before > forwarding a document to the IESG. This action does not prevent > those working groups from continuing with these procedures if the > working group prefers to work this way. We encourage working groups > to put measures in place to improve the quality of their output. >=20 > I don't see that this gives individual WGs (not to mention WG chairs) any= right to > impose arbitrary new rules. It only allows them to keep existing rules. = The > most it says about allowing the creation of new rules is: >=20 > that does not prohibit the Routing Area Directors from requiring > implementation and/or operational experience >=20 > though this presumably would also be subject to appeal if it were applied > arbitrarily. >=20 > > [Martin] The basic motivation for this is simply to avoid > > (over)loading the iesg with documents that have no (and could possibly > > never have an) implementation. >=20 > I don't think the problem of AD workload can be addressed by having a sin= gle > WG add more delay to its process. Certainly I don't agree that the IESG > workload problem should be addressed by having the IETF do less work. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess
Hi Weiguo,

I would recommend you to check out the L2VPN archives… we discus= sed this at length.
For instance:

But check the other emails in the thread.
Sending one or two routes, really depend on how the learning is done.&= nbsp;

Hope it helps.
Thanks.
Jorge

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Haoweiguo &= lt;haoweiguo@huawei.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2015 a= t 1:37 AM
To: "sajassi@cisco.com" <sajassi@cisco.com>
Cc: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@i= etf.org>
Subject: [bess] One question about = Route-type2 usage in EVPN base protocol

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">Hi Co-authors,

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">Through ARP process, each EVPN PE = can learn local connecting CE’s MAC and IP correspondence, and will n= otify the MAC and IP association to all remote PEs through Route-type2 message. Theoretically, each remote PE can rely on the= single route-type2 message to populate local Mac VRF(MAC table) , ARP Cach= e and IP VRF(IP routing table) at the same time. However, some vendor doesn= ’t do in this way. In its implementation, each PE will notify two route-type2 message to remote PEs, one message(say= message 1) only carry MAC information(IP field is invalid), another messag= e(say message 2) carry MAC and IP association information. The remote PEs r= ely on message 1 to populate local MAC VRF, and rely on message 2 to populate local ARP Cache and IP VRF.

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"> 

I think EVPN protocol = should give a clear suggestion for route type-2 message usage, what’s= the scenario to announce only one message and what’s scenario to announce two messages?

 

Thanks,<= /p>

weiguo