From nobody Tue Nov 1 09:53:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0281E1293EB for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 09:53:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RsPGY_4c1J3n for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 09:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 785CE129501 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 09:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uA1GreWH017559; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 16:53:40 GMT Received: from 950129200 (248.206.189.80.dyn.plus.net [80.189.206.248]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uA1GrdDa017536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Nov 2016 16:53:40 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Joel M. Halpern'" References: <147784375838.20673.15513470878299688311.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <000901d232c9$5841d390$08c57ab0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 16:53:33 -0000 Message-ID: <022101d23460$7c283400$74789c00$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKVZufArLcLzqLuyg8zmKTt0aD7MAGyQKRmAcA9UQSfIl3eEA== Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22674.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--13.808-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--13.808-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 8HTFlOrbAtGnykMun0J1wilrosmS0SOA6Jj6zYvfFAQszxfUl348Siyd RbtZLvkJX381PW63B5RnwcfbAX+pUHOAMSqhBqB6ZSNLxsgoyr9+S5m2/8VLmqdrpTvh7T6oolt mpE+wxFczoBgNFXK6yx11KRpM1qQjw9dU5xwENT0D2WXLXdz+AdNte1LuSj6snWBUWlAKnBPetc vvokqHwuOhC5lTa7Sd5TdOYpA2i/QDOqKd7r6zB/OHbIp2eXtYgdNXa4lpKNudCqKtxM6bhyvd+ 2hXReVzg8sInEJcLhZ5LAkNM0VvMSbkA69Y/24EdrpCZsJVIIVKJXxORkqw+Y3HvDXeBtl6Rtns 0UtB6myU96+EbsoF0G5ehnoFL1UIoNHehjQSkFDcWo5Vvs8MQqFkxMQpsHd+W/Kb+C9IfiI6uNl zbjunZfkjZWX3czU5HjST5wEnzKqm241/fnDhGC4uTw19Klh6/Azwuuy/EnkOAHqXajwVGOrEiR SZkkEfEkO7BEE0ITZ7qnSO9CPkMKJPX3SW5D8riUPZPmKZOQl+RK30aqYpVeOxOq7LQlGL+ocjg 6kQytk1g2myLVBpERxppPBAN/Brm76m+JGdKc6VOwZbcOalSz5qWjX5QROJMMn1rcqKQaj/Ffkj Vyia+94cUouyj6P/+FeuXGwia71xzF1ERcUUn9h3b7/zBhN1yeUl7aCTy8hDENgR7GM8k8IZXeW gC5H4VhUSaZx4dOrTW9j6IJNdfF0U3RPW+iLP+XpOHXxPrp6EQiKo28GuY7uqk4cq52pz/lQM0H dIahpNtdLSk6RTz4yHevzIms+sT1e1bt+UYd+eAiCmPx4NwLTrdaH1ZWqCpvI8UZOf47jUZxEAl FPo846HM5rqDwqtCCl5YAMYRhnXWFmoBLiReOecBGhHyrU/S77u7nhGLxDvC6R/hp+qCw== Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mackie-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-01.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 16:53:47 -0000 Hi Joel, Thanks for engaging in discussion and for supporting some of our ideas. > Thank you authors. > > Reading through this, I have a few questions. > > 1) I like the idea of being able to support multiple SFC overlays. > I can see circumstances when this would be valuable. However, I can > not see how it works. (I presume I am missing something obvious.) > If the SPI are unique, then sure, it works, but they are not really > separate overlays. They are merely administrative slices of the same overlay. > The text in section 5 bullet 1 starts with observing that the path > state is RT specific. That part is fine. It then asserts that the > SFF that receives a packet can somehow tell which RT the packet goes > with. How? Since the underlay is not partitioned into RTs (only the > overlay) the transport mechanism does not indicate that. And the > data packet does not carry an RT. Good catch! We wrote (section 4.3)... The SPI is unique across all service function overlay networks supported by the underlay network. This certainly makes life easier and comes at negligible cost because the SPI space can either be in the control of a single controller, or can be partitioned across multiple controllers. However, this could be relaxed a little. In the data plane it is the combination of tunnel/SPI that needs to be distinguishable (compare with how a L3VPN VRF is identified). In the control plane, the RD/SPI needs to be globally unique. So we'll update the text to make that clear. > 2) The Path hop information (for a specific SPI, SI) allows for > carrying multiple SFTs. It allows for multiple SFIs, which is > important and useful. The multiple SFTs seems to be intended to > allow for the case where SFT A or B can be done at hops 9 or 8. > Which would be nice to allow. But since the second SFF (at hop 8) > will not know whether the first SFF (at hop 9) chose A or B, I do > not see how it can correctly choose the opposite. > > Are there additional assumptions made to enable this? The text in > the example of section 8.4 seems to imply a different sort of use > case for this multiple SFT at a hop situation. But I can not see > how that will be implemented interoperably. Having control know > magically that the SFF can correctly select an SFT based on > unspecified information seems problematic. If you build a chain that allows a choice of service functions at a particular point, then (presumably) you are happy that this choice is made. Consider for example that three "similar" implementations of a particular function exist (say a firewall), but that they are given different SFT values because although they are similar, they are not identical. Suppose further that the controller is happy for either of the first two implementations to be used, but not the third. In this case the chain would include a choice not just between SFIs, but between SFIs of different types. The choice in this case would be made based on local considerations and would be just like any other choice of SFI for a given SI. The use case you give is interesting, but different. You are basically saying that (part of) the chain consists of a set of functions that must all be implemented, but where the order is not important. That becomes complicated because it is not a natural fit with the concept of a chain. To achieve it you either need some state associated with the packets (like a recorded route - possibly in metadata) or you have to perform branching (reclassification) to jump into different chains (by changing SPI) so that choices become more limited as the packet executes some functions and moves forward. Personally, if I had to deploy such function, I think I would opt for the controller making the decision up front. But if I really wanted to delegate the choice into the network, I would do it with branching. > 3) I am a bit confused by section 6.1 on looping, jumping, and > branching. Looping (more accurately spiraling) should not require > any special handling. Simply put the same SFI information at two > different SIs in the same SPI, and spiraling occurs. No special > handling needed. > > Jumping seems to be a special case of reclassificaiton. So I would > prefer to see it simply handled by the same mechanism (why have two > mechanisms that can do the same job.) > > Branching seems not to handle the most common case where we need to > branch. That is the situation where packets in a given SFP, as a > result of processing by an SF, will usually continue down the SFP, > but under some circumstances (and there are a range of them) will > need to take a different path. > > The Assumption in the SFC work is that the SF indicates the need for > reclassificiation by adjusting the flags in the NSH header, and that > a classifier co-resident with the SFF then performs reclassification. > The mechanism you describe in section 6.1 does not seem to support that. You are right that jumping, looping (let's keep that term because it is clear that it means going back to a particular point), and branching are all similar. That is, they all involve a different behavior from the normal decrement-SI-and-get-on-with-it style of advancing down the chain. But, obviously, they are subtly different and pose different problems. You are also correct that *if* the processing is linear (i.e., no choice involved) then looping can be encoded as a straight-forward sequence in the SFP, jumping would be unnecessary because the jumped-over hops would not need to be in the chain at all, and branching would really just be a shorthand. But we are covering the case where the progress is conditional on something - call it reclassification if you like, or consider is a policy-based decision. In these cases, SFP must encode the choice. Additionally, the looped-back-to SFF has to have forwarding state dependent on the SI it is processing. By re-using the SI (i.e., looping back to exactly a previous point on the SFP) we minimize that state. The location of the re-classification is a matter for debate. It is probably an implementation issue, and I hope that the architecture will not unnecessarily constrain the implementation. You have suggested here that "a classifier co-resident with the SFF performs reclassification" and that certainly fits with our approach although there are two forms of re-classification possible. 1. The re-classifier is programmed though the controller to be aware of potential changes (loop, jump, branch) and acts accordingly. 2. The re-classifier learns of options for re-classification through inspection of the SFPR that was advertised. We support both. On the other hand, draft-ietf-sfc-nsh (section 4) makes it clear that any of the SFF, SF, and proxy may perform re-classification. In other words, the packet received back from the SF by the SFF may already have been re-classified so that the SPI/SI is different from what is "expected". We also support that mode of operation. > 3') Also, that is why we do not usually describe the classifier as a > service function. Classifiers (including in path reclassifiers) are > permitted to overwrite the SFP ID. Service functions are not > permitted to do that. We may be getting confused between logical functions and implementation components. If (as we do) we say that anything that modifies the SPI/SI other than by simple decrement of the SI is performing classification, then it is evident that when an SF or SFF modifies the SPI/SI then it has a co-resident classifier. That is, the SF or SFF has classifier function built in. Of course, the classifier may also be a "bump in the virtual wire". > 4) I notice that the examples still show the SI being adjusted by > more than 1. The NSH draft has been clarified, at the request of > the AD and WG, to make it clear that the SI is decremented by 1 at each hop. > (If that were not the case, we would need additional information in > the control as to how much to decrement the SI. Which would be a > complication with no value.) I think you may be using the Future Perfect form of the Present Tense, Joel. The current version of the draft (-10) shows "decrement" and has no mention of requiring a unitary decrement. But, frankly, this is not relevant. We absolutely support the possibility of decrementing the SI by just one. But we also support re-classification that is co-resident in the SF and changes the SI by a different amount. We think that the SFF does not need to be able to tell whether an SF has invoked re-classification and therefore it should be built to expect and SPI/SI on returned packets. Probably as an aside that belongs on the SFC list - using the protocol spec to define the behavior of an SF that receives a message, processes the contents, and then forwards it is suspect. It is using the protocol spec to build the architecture. And, in practice, you could not enforce the 2119 language since a downstream node will not know what value SI its upstream neighbor received. Furthermore, since re-classifiers can be built in anywhere (including into an SF) the decrement process can be over-ridden. Thus, the best you can achieve in the NSH spec is "The SF SHOULD decrement the SI by one, but MAY utilize re-classification to set the SI to any other value." We also see some value in the "gaps" in a SFP to allow later insertion of more SFs without renumbering (recall writing code in Fortran ;-). Not renumbering is helpful for other SFPs that may branch to this one. Note that renumbering changes the *start* of a chain because the SIs decrement. Looking forward to discussing this further. Regards, Adrian From nobody Tue Nov 1 10:21:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF387129508 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:21:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9khnFVx-P54m for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6DCE1295AE for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4396250A21; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:21:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1478020903; bh=7wMfpvo20AncRjcCWp7exGbqxz1rZbLvrgSbzVTbWao=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Jh5saQENeSP9LMUBKJVaHn2iwo+N3QHCNyvOaqkY2v1sTSUOshTeMq7v36pFcIIlC DJNQENGwjUihIskrHSg1AeInsJeOv/QLMgu/p9tvYsBklD2weO++gVjqzImGBvlVsn D0VMPfAfjSS075EMwRMW/dZSEkhkIAcVNTmedqgk= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E4CA52464D2; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:21:42 -0700 (PDT) To: adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <147784375838.20673.15513470878299688311.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <000901d232c9$5841d390$08c57ab0$@olddog.co.uk> <022101d23460$7c283400$74789c00$@olddog.co.uk> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <6301d383-b1f9-8bb9-efa3-c0dadacf6d52@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 13:23:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <022101d23460$7c283400$74789c00$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mackie-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-01.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 17:21:47 -0000 Some of this is going to get long for an email, but I don't see another choice. Also, a lot of this discussion belongs in the SFC working group. We need to figure out how to handle collaboration between IDR and SFC for this. Having said all that, further comments in line. Yours, Joel On 11/1/16 12:53 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi Joel, > > Thanks for engaging in discussion and for supporting some of our ideas. > >> Thank you authors. >> >> Reading through this, I have a few questions. >> >> 1) I like the idea of being able to support multiple SFC overlays. >> I can see circumstances when this would be valuable. However, I can >> not see how it works. (I presume I am missing something obvious.) >> If the SPI are unique, then sure, it works, but they are not really >> separate overlays. They are merely administrative slices of the same overlay. >> The text in section 5 bullet 1 starts with observing that the path >> state is RT specific. That part is fine. It then asserts that the >> SFF that receives a packet can somehow tell which RT the packet goes >> with. How? Since the underlay is not partitioned into RTs (only the >> overlay) the transport mechanism does not indicate that. And the >> data packet does not carry an RT. > > Good catch! > > We wrote (section 4.3)... > The SPI is unique across all service function overlay networks > supported by the underlay network. > > This certainly makes life easier and comes at negligible cost because the SPI > space can either be in the control of a single controller, or can be partitioned > across multiple controllers. > > However, this could be relaxed a little. In the data plane it is the combination > of tunnel/SPI that needs to be distinguishable (compare with how a L3VPN VRF is > identified). In the control plane, the RD/SPI needs to be globally unique. So > we'll update the text to make that clear. I had missed the sentence in 4.3 where you said that the SPI are disjoint. If they are disjoint, it is not really separate overlays at all. The RT allows you to reduce stored state, but they are really all part of the same overlay (as they have to coordinate.) If we want to require that SFF are sensitive to the transport identification on which packets arrive (which may be MAC addresses, MPLS labels, ...) then yes, we could divide by using separate transport identifiers for an SFF which is in multiple overlays. Seems very fragile. I do hope there is a robust way to make it work. > >> 2) The Path hop information (for a specific SPI, SI) allows for >> carrying multiple SFTs. It allows for multiple SFIs, which is >> important and useful. The multiple SFTs seems to be intended to >> allow for the case where SFT A or B can be done at hops 9 or 8. >> Which would be nice to allow. But since the second SFF (at hop 8) >> will not know whether the first SFF (at hop 9) chose A or B, I do >> not see how it can correctly choose the opposite. >> >> Are there additional assumptions made to enable this? The text in >> the example of section 8.4 seems to imply a different sort of use >> case for this multiple SFT at a hop situation. But I can not see >> how that will be implemented interoperably. Having control know >> magically that the SFF can correctly select an SFT based on >> unspecified information seems problematic. > > If you build a chain that allows a choice of service functions at a particular > point, then (presumably) you are happy that this choice is made. > > Consider for example that three "similar" implementations of a particular > function exist (say a firewall), but that they are given different SFT values > because although they are similar, they are not identical. Suppose further that > the controller is happy for either of the first two implementations to be used, > but not the third. In this case the chain would include a choice not just > between SFIs, but between SFIs of different types. The choice in this case would > be made based on local considerations and would be just like any other choice of > SFI for a given SI. > > The use case you give is interesting, but different. You are basically saying > that (part of) the chain consists of a set of functions that must all be > implemented, but where the order is not important. That becomes complicated > because it is not a natural fit with the concept of a chain. To achieve it you > either need some state associated with the packets (like a recorded route - > possibly in metadata) or you have to perform branching (reclassification) to > jump into different chains (by changing SPI) so that choices become more limited > as the packet executes some functions and moves forward. > > Personally, if I had to deploy such function, I think I would opt for the > controller making the decision up front. But if I really wanted to delegate the > choice into the network, I would do it with branching. If that is the intent of the alternative SFTs, I think the text needs to make taht much clearer. I can see wanting that, given the need to use registered SFTs in order to advertise service function availability in the control protocol. Part of my concern is that I could easily see situations in which one would want to use the BGP based control for establishing the SFP state, but not use BGP for the discovery. In such a situation, one would not need registered types, except to support this capability and the "any entity of this type" option. I worry that defining the SFTs is going to be much messier than it looks. > >> 3) I am a bit confused by section 6.1 on looping, jumping, and >> branching. Looping (more accurately spiraling) should not require >> any special handling. Simply put the same SFI information at two >> different SIs in the same SPI, and spiraling occurs. No special >> handling needed. >> >> Jumping seems to be a special case of reclassificaiton. So I would >> prefer to see it simply handled by the same mechanism (why have two >> mechanisms that can do the same job.) >> >> Branching seems not to handle the most common case where we need to >> branch. That is the situation where packets in a given SFP, as a >> result of processing by an SF, will usually continue down the SFP, >> but under some circumstances (and there are a range of them) will >> need to take a different path. >> >> The Assumption in the SFC work is that the SF indicates the need for >> reclassificiation by adjusting the flags in the NSH header, and that >> a classifier co-resident with the SFF then performs reclassification. >> The mechanism you describe in section 6.1 does not seem to support that. > > You are right that jumping, looping (let's keep that term because it is clear > that it means going back to a particular point), and branching are all similar. > That is, they all involve a different behavior from the normal > decrement-SI-and-get-on-with-it style of advancing down the chain. But, > obviously, they are subtly different and pose different problems. > > You are also correct that *if* the processing is linear (i.e., no choice > involved) then looping can be encoded as a straight-forward sequence in the SFP, > jumping would be unnecessary because the jumped-over hops would not need to be > in the chain at all, and branching would really just be a shorthand. But we are > covering the case where the progress is conditional on something - call it > reclassification if you like, or consider is a policy-based decision. In these > cases, SFP must encode the choice. > > Additionally, the looped-back-to SFF has to have forwarding state dependent on > the SI it is processing. By re-using the SI (i.e., looping back to exactly a > previous point on the SFP) we minimize that state. SFF forwarding state is explicitly required by the NSH draft to be SI dependent. If an SFF gets a packet with an SI it does not recognize, then it is required to drop the packet. So this SI state is needed. Also, returning a packet to an earlier SFF, with the SI restored to what it was the first time, is a recipe for an infinite loop. That is why we changed the term in the architecture from looping to spiraling. Now, it may be that at several revisted SFF the selection of SF and next SFF are the same for the two indices. But since thigns continue to get decremented, we can always terminate. This is in fact why we look at spiraling as a normal part of the chain and not as reclassification. Reclassificiaton requires care, as it can easily produce infinite loops. Having said all that, given that the function to be invoked for your special path markers is undefined, I do not see how it is helpful to include them in the chain. The SFF has no way, from that information, to know what it is supposed to do. And having the markers does not help it perform better reclassification. And further, the classifier knows what result it wants, so having more specific markers does not seem to help anything. > > The location of the re-classification is a matter for debate. It is probably an > implementation issue, and I hope that the architecture will not unnecessarily > constrain the implementation. You have suggested here that "a classifier > co-resident with the SFF performs reclassification" and that certainly fits with > our approach although there are two forms of re-classification possible. > 1. The re-classifier is programmed though the controller to be aware > of potential changes (loop, jump, branch) and acts accordingly. > 2. The re-classifier learns of options for re-classification through > inspection of the SFPR that was advertised. > We support both. Classifiers are described in teh architecture as a separate entity from SF. We found this to be really helpful. This does allow one to have an SF with a co-located classifier. But it is conceptually the classifier that changes the SPI / SI, not the SF. SF are not permitted by the NSH draft to adjust the SPI. > > On the other hand, draft-ietf-sfc-nsh (section 4) makes it clear that any of the > SFF, SF, and proxy may perform re-classification. In other words, the packet > received back from the SF by the SFF may already have been re-classified so that > the SPI/SI is different from what is "expected". We also support that mode of > operation. > >> 3') Also, that is why we do not usually describe the classifier as a >> service function. Classifiers (including in path reclassifiers) are >> permitted to overwrite the SFP ID. Service functions are not >> permitted to do that. > > We may be getting confused between logical functions and implementation > components. If (as we do) we say that anything that modifies the SPI/SI other > than by simple decrement of the SI is performing classification, then it is > evident that when an SF or SFF modifies the SPI/SI then it has a co-resident > classifier. That is, the SF or SFF has classifier function built in. Of course, > the classifier may also be a "bump in the virtual wire". Agreed, the classifer can be a bump in teh wire, it can be co-resident with the SFF, or it can be coresident with the SF. It is a logical function to address specific needs. > >> 4) I notice that the examples still show the SI being adjusted by >> more than 1. The NSH draft has been clarified, at the request of >> the AD and WG, to make it clear that the SI is decremented by 1 at each hop. >> (If that were not the case, we would need additional information in >> the control as to how much to decrement the SI. Which would be a >> complication with no value.) > > I think you may be using the Future Perfect form of the Present Tense, Joel. The > current version of the draft (-10) shows "decrement" and has no mention of > requiring a unitary decrement. > But, frankly, this is not relevant. > We absolutely support the possibility of decrementing the SI by just one. > But we also support re-classification that is co-resident in the SF and changes > the SI by a different amount. > We think that the SFF does not need to be able to tell whether an SF has invoked > re-classification and therefore it should be built to expect and SPI/SI on > returned packets. I am guessing that most of us working on this assumed that "decrement" meant "decrease by 1". The problem is that if the decrease can be arbitrary then we need to include in the provisioning model the amount to decrease. We could do that. And add text making clear that the decrement is variable. Or we could add text making clear what we have assumed, that it is unitary. The fact that you read it as allowing larger decrements means that we need to be clearer one way or the other. Personally, I consider modifying an in-place chain rare enough that needing to instead create a new chain, create the state for it, and then change the classification rules to use the new chain to be a cleaner and more robust way to get there. But that is just my take. > > Probably as an aside that belongs on the SFC list - using the protocol spec to > define the behavior of an SF that receives a message, processes the contents, > and then forwards it is suspect. It is using the protocol spec to build the > architecture. And, in practice, you could not enforce the 2119 language since a > downstream node will not know what value SI its upstream neighbor received. > Furthermore, since re-classifiers can be built in anywhere (including into an > SF) the decrement process can be over-ridden. Thus, the best you can achieve in > the NSH spec is "The SF SHOULD decrement the SI by one, but MAY utilize > re-classification to set the SI to any other value." I am not sure what youa re getting at here? > > We also see some value in the "gaps" in a SFP to allow later insertion of more > SFs without renumbering (recall writing code in Fortran ;-). Not renumbering is > helpful for other SFPs that may branch to this one. Note that renumbering > changes the *start* of a chain because the SIs decrement. > > Looking forward to discussing this further. > > Regards, > Adrian > > From nobody Tue Nov 1 11:48:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E8012987A for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:48:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyDcoeLRXvbQ for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (asmtp5.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8BE3129875 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uA1ImMla011466; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:48:22 GMT Received: from 950129200 (248.206.189.80.dyn.plus.net [80.189.206.248]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uA1ImL5j011460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:48:22 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Joel M. Halpern'" References: <147784375838.20673.15513470878299688311.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <000901d232c9$5841d390$08c57ab0$@olddog.co.uk> <022101d23460$7c283400$74789c00$@olddog.co.uk> <6301d383-b1f9-8bb9-efa3-c0dadacf6d52@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <6301d383-b1f9-8bb9-efa3-c0dadacf6d52@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:48:16 -0000 Message-ID: <026801d23470$8228f730$867ae590$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKVZufArLcLzqLuyg8zmKTt0aD7MAGyQKRmAcA9UQQCETdyggJKDSz0nv+REjA= Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22674.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--25.834-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--25.834-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 8HTFlOrbAtE4HKI/yaqRmwRH1Nr7oERddsM3mpA5g7L+7KZICEbEsmdR 3KZbtfZI4Az/tl9gO5JrkYv5jGLcsRkaVQMnHb0o8jbzfqNu/QSHxi2fvkKUMyKqCdRGXMBRimz WYYKiqn/MDEuDg15grPoYXaQpK32g1M73D0qKwJRlI0vGyCjKv35Lmbb/xUuap2ulO+HtPqiiW2 akT7DEVzOgGA0VcrrLHXUpGkzWpCP5V22kT3/19ia1MaKuob8PTJDl9FKHbrl8q8ktY7N90H5oE zLME8hDuyH9Fog9Qf34/putUaIW7z2F6vIzQnGjnhHKNOYbLL5imi8LvNfmr84WNv6NI8EkMQYW N5nDJFQspE5a4Dl1jqLimEOKAhFz5RYagBMm1Vt1fPeXvwXdiaPLTdfaE15XDYbe/PyX8gQKd25 omTNJGo1YfcyB0zNlUGL5XlDynpNPDPfmo+ftx9jko+KiQPUGHnCRYlUUdYL4JyR+b5tvoFLwrv 0ghf6PIcLBcXc5tzHmPmduOfvFNN+E0BNW43zBWZbr7hxHnYT4uJ1REX4MHW3D6f6IpbLIzYBEY ZNzuHr05Zd/r8z0RmYuNwceVXNUi7kFd/P5U75n3WXvQ/SfmGXSofv/sdGOf7FDYGpyXq3dCYfV 42t34ZXt48HMiQfhD0ZMTFdcyb+V+JDP2zZXc8Tp/1v2r28TguwtqyXlE6Go+b+yOP0oGCl6M6N tuTxc9vMnKBfXwFY0+4574qsKNp1c04K0r+7JkX71Hy/ufOZWjiXAsVR2K18JOd5GWdo6WG+cKk AZxFAfM79To9Zeqd0bop4L/fxECK/KM9VnfYOeAiCmPx4NwLTrdaH1ZWqCpvI8UZOf47jUZxEAl FPo846HM5rqDwqtlExlQIQeRG0= Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mackie-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-01.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 18:48:43 -0000 Hi again, > Some of this is going to get long for an email, but I don't see another > choice. I'll do some pruning. > Also, a lot of this discussion belongs in the SFC working > group. We need to figure out how to handle collaboration between IDR > and SFC for this. The cross between IDR and BESS has long since been worked out and I see no reason to vary it. The discussion with SFC is, of course important, and *if* we were changing what the SFC WG had done we might be more interactive. At this point, we have flagged the I-D to SFC and invited them all to the party. > >> 1) I like the idea of being able to support multiple SFC overlays. > >> I can see circumstances when this would be valuable. However, I can > >> not see how it works. (I presume I am missing something obvious.) > >> If the SPI are unique, then sure, it works, but they are not really > >> separate overlays. They are merely administrative slices of the same overlay. > >> The text in section 5 bullet 1 starts with observing that the path > >> state is RT specific. That part is fine. It then asserts that the > >> SFF that receives a packet can somehow tell which RT the packet goes > >> with. How? Since the underlay is not partitioned into RTs (only the > >> overlay) the transport mechanism does not indicate that. And the > >> data packet does not carry an RT. > > > > Good catch! > > > > We wrote (section 4.3)... > > The SPI is unique across all service function overlay networks > > supported by the underlay network. > > > > This certainly makes life easier and comes at negligible cost because the SPI > > space can either be in the control of a single controller, or can be partitioned > > across multiple controllers. > > > > However, this could be relaxed a little. In the data plane it is the combination > > of tunnel/SPI that needs to be distinguishable (compare with how a L3VPN VRF > > is identified). In the control plane, the RD/SPI needs to be globally unique. So > > we'll update the text to make that clear. > > I had missed the sentence in 4.3 where you said that the SPI are > disjoint. If they are disjoint, it is not really separate overlays at > all. The RT allows you to reduce stored state, but they are really all > part of the same overlay (as they have to coordinate.) > > If we want to require that SFF are sensitive to the transport > identification on which packets arrive (which may be MAC addresses, MPLS > labels, ...) then yes, we could divide by using separate transport > identifiers for an SFF which is in multiple overlays. Seems very > fragile. I do hope there is a robust way to make it work. This fragility has been used in many places without a problem for a while. I would point at TCP port numbers. I would note the use labels to identify VPN instances. Oh, and per-interface label spaces? It works. > >> 2) [snip] > > Consider for example that three "similar" implementations of a particular > > function exist (say a firewall), but that they are given different SFT values > > because although they are similar, they are not identical. Suppose further that > > the controller is happy for either of the first two implementations to be used, > > but not the third. In this case the chain would include a choice not just > > between SFIs, but between SFIs of different types. The choice in this case > > would be made based on local considerations and would be just like any > > other choice of SFI for a given SI. > > > > The use case you give is interesting, but different. You are basically saying > > that (part of) the chain consists of a set of functions that must all be > > implemented, but where the order is not important. That becomes complicated > > because it is not a natural fit with the concept of a chain. To achieve it you > > either need some state associated with the packets (like a recorded route - > > possibly in metadata) or you have to perform branching (reclassification) to > > jump into different chains (by changing SPI) so that choices become more > > limited as the packet executes some functions and moves forward. > > > > Personally, if I had to deploy such function, I think I would opt for the > > controller making the decision up front. But if I really wanted to delegate the > > choice into the network, I would do it with branching. > > If that is the intent of the alternative SFTs, I think the text needs to > make taht much clearer. I can see wanting that, given the need to use > registered SFTs in order to advertise service function availability in > the control protocol. OK. Will look at improving clarity for that. Thanks for flagging it. [snip] > >> 3) I am a bit confused by section 6.1 on looping, jumping, and > >> branching. Looping (more accurately spiraling) should not require > >> any special handling. Simply put the same SFI information at two > >> different SIs in the same SPI, and spiraling occurs. No special > >> handling needed. > >> > >> Jumping seems to be a special case of reclassificaiton. So I would > >> prefer to see it simply handled by the same mechanism (why have two > >> mechanisms that can do the same job.) > >> > >> Branching seems not to handle the most common case where we need to > >> branch. That is the situation where packets in a given SFP, as a > >> result of processing by an SF, will usually continue down the SFP, > >> but under some circumstances (and there are a range of them) will > >> need to take a different path. > >> > >> The Assumption in the SFC work is that the SF indicates the need for > >> reclassificiation by adjusting the flags in the NSH header, and that > >> a classifier co-resident with the SFF then performs reclassification. > >> The mechanism you describe in section 6.1 does not seem to support that. > > > > You are right that jumping, looping (let's keep that term because it is clear > > that it means going back to a particular point), and branching are all similar. > > That is, they all involve a different behavior from the normal > > decrement-SI-and-get-on-with-it style of advancing down the chain. But, > > obviously, they are subtly different and pose different problems. > > > > You are also correct that *if* the processing is linear (i.e., no choice > > involved) then looping can be encoded as a straight-forward sequence in the > > SFP, jumping would be unnecessary because the jumped-over hops would > > not need to be in the chain at all, and branching would really just be a > > shorthand. But we are covering the case where the progress is conditional > > on something - call it reclassification if you like, or consider is a policy-based > > decision. In these cases, SFP must encode the choice. > > > > Additionally, the looped-back-to SFF has to have forwarding state dependent > > on the SI it is processing. By re-using the SI (i.e., looping back to exactly a > > previous point on the SFP) we minimize that state. > > SFF forwarding state is explicitly required by the NSH draft to be SI > dependent. If an SFF gets a packet with an SI it does not recognize, > then it is required to drop the packet. So this SI state is needed. I think you are making an architectural assumption that a packet received "from the wire" will be treated exactly the same as a packet received from a local SF. I can see why you might want to have that (and why it forces the SF to decrement the SI) but I don't see it in RFC 7665. Anyway (!) my point was not that no SI state is need, but that by re-entering an SFP (i.e. by re-using an SI) you can save state (by not needing state for other SIs). > Also, returning a packet to an earlier SFF, with the SI restored to what > it was the first time, is a recipe for an infinite loop. That is true. But note that re-classification is a recipe for an infinite loop and there is no protection against that. We noted the risk at the end of section 6. > That is why we > changed the term in the architecture from looping to spiraling. Ah, this is why you have been using this term. But (and just for the record) neither RFC 7655 not draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-10 use the term spiral or spiraling (or spiralling). Actually, since there are only five active SFC WG drafts and just two RFCs it was quick to check that none of the WG documents uses this term. So I looked in the SFC mailing list and there it is: ticket #5 for the NSH draft. The ticket was closed as: | Reply: This was answered on the list: http://www.ietf.org/mail- | archive/web/sfc/current/msg03188.html and therefore no changes are needed. | Given that, this item can be marked as resolved. In the referenced mail you wrote: || Thus, I would not expect this document to discuss how service functions themselves || handle revisiting. But metadata clearly allows for a range of behaviors that will work. || And the path index handles the SFF needs relative to spirals, which is what we need || to handle. And, metadata is exactly how we observed that an infinite loop would be avoided. > Now, it > may be that at several revisted SFF the selection of SF and next SFF are > the same for the two indices. But since thigns continue to get > decremented, we can always terminate. This is in fact why we look at > spiraling as a normal part of the chain and not as reclassification. > Reclassificiaton requires care, as it can easily produce infinite loops. Agreed. And classification programming, and chain construction, require care or packets can get sent to the wrong places and have the wrong functions applied to them. > Having said all that, given that the function to be invoked for your > special path markers is undefined, I do not see how it is helpful to > include them in the chain. The SFF has no way, from that information, > to know what it is supposed to do. And having the markers does not help > it perform better reclassification. And further, the classifier knows > what result it wants, so having more specific markers does not seem to > help anything. I understand half of your point, but disagree. A classifier in your scheme must be fully programmed, and when new non-simple actions are required it must be reprogrammed. In our scheme a simple policy may be installed at the classifier and the definition of the chain describes the available options. Furthermore, the choice may be as simple as "load balancing" in which case calling the function "re-classification" may be over egging. Lastly, a common "final step" in a chain may be to splice it into another chain. This saves a lot of programming and allows for management of common chain segments. That operation requires a specific hop description in the first chain - effectively a branch instruction. The bit I don't understand is where you say "the function to be invoked for your special path markers is undefined," so I can't answer it. > > The location of the re-classification is a matter for debate. It is probably an > > implementation issue, and I hope that the architecture will not unnecessarily > > constrain the implementation. You have suggested here that "a classifier > > co-resident with the SFF performs reclassification" and that certainly fits with > > our approach although there are two forms of re-classification possible. > > 1. The re-classifier is programmed though the controller to be aware > > of potential changes (loop, jump, branch) and acts accordingly. > > 2. The re-classifier learns of options for re-classification through > > inspection of the SFPR that was advertised. > > We support both. > > Classifiers are described in teh architecture as a separate entity from > SF. We found this to be really helpful. This does allow one to have an > SF with a co-located classifier. But it is conceptually the classifier > that changes the SPI / SI, not the SF. SF are not permitted by the NSH > draft to adjust the SPI. I really struggle to see the difference between "a classification function co-resident with a service function" (RFC 7665 section 4.8 - where it is noted as typical for re-classification) and a service function that can do reclassification. Of course, they are separate logical functions and how you implement your software is up to you, but from the outside the difference is not apparent: as far as the SFF is concerned, it gave a packet to an SF and the packet came back having been re-classified. Aren't we on the head of a pin here especially when looking at section 4 of the NSH draft as I noted here... > > On the other hand, draft-ietf-sfc-nsh (section 4) makes it clear that any of the > > SFF, SF, and proxy may perform re-classification. In other words, the packet > > received back from the SF by the SFF may already have been re-classified so > > that the SPI/SI is different from what is "expected". We also support that > > mode of operation. > > > >> 3') Also, that is why we do not usually describe the classifier as a > >> service function. Classifiers (including in path reclassifiers) are > >> permitted to overwrite the SFP ID. Service functions are not > >> permitted to do that. > > > > We may be getting confused between logical functions and implementation > > components. If (as we do) we say that anything that modifies the SPI/SI other > > than by simple decrement of the SI is performing classification, then it is > > evident that when an SF or SFF modifies the SPI/SI then it has a co-resident > > classifier. That is, the SF or SFF has classifier function built in. Of course, > > the classifier may also be a "bump in the virtual wire". > > Agreed, the classifer can be a bump in teh wire, it can be co-resident > with the SFF, or it can be coresident with the SF. It is a logical > function to address specific needs. We are agreed. It is a logical function, and thus may be folded in with other logical functions to make single protocol elements. > >> 4) I notice that the examples still show the SI being adjusted by > >> more than 1. The NSH draft has been clarified, at the request of > >> the AD and WG, to make it clear that the SI is decremented by 1 at each hop. > >> (If that were not the case, we would need additional information in > >> the control as to how much to decrement the SI. Which would be a > >> complication with no value.) > > > > I think you may be using the Future Perfect form of the Present Tense, Joel. > > The current version of the draft (-10) shows "decrement" and has no > > mention of requiring a unitary decrement. > > But, frankly, this is not relevant. > > We absolutely support the possibility of decrementing the SI by just one. > > But we also support re-classification that is co-resident in the SF and changes > > the SI by a different amount. > > We think that the SFF does not need to be able to tell whether an SF has > > invoked re-classification and therefore it should be built to expect and SPI/SI > > on returned packets. > > I am guessing that most of us working on this assumed that "decrement" > meant "decrease by 1". Guess away! Actually, I am grumpy. You said above "The NSH draft has been clarified, at the request of the AD and WG, to make it clear that the SI is decremented by 1 at each hop." Not only has that update not been made, but you just sent mail to the SFC list to ask them what they think "decrement" means. If the WG has already agreed this you surely don't need to ask again. I do see the question raised by Alia in her review on October 5th, but I see no follow-up to this point on the list. So, no, there is no agreement about the SF decrementing by one at each hop. > The problem is that if the decrease can be > arbitrary then we need to include in the provisioning model the amount > to decrease. We could do that. And add text making clear that the > decrement is variable. Or we could add text making clear what we have > assumed, that it is unitary. The fact that you read it as allowing > larger decrements means that we need to be clearer one way or the other. Agreed. Clarity is king. > Personally, I consider modifying an in-place chain rare enough that > needing to instead create a new chain, create the state for it, and then > change the classification rules to use the new chain to be a cleaner and > more robust way to get there. But that is just my take. It is messy if that chain is used by other chains (as "branch to"). Cheers, Adrian From nobody Tue Nov 1 15:33:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893E51293E0 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 15:33:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q2wrds1g6Bqm for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 15:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2EBD129416 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 15:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87774245E66; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 15:33:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1478039586; bh=GdjlhfR1RQL01v//itGR7346iBa+QethesIh2j/rHPc=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=hyy9bcIlFUzalEl1K4O9LF/0MMDfe6xadjPHFFiGqfy2uJH67/a/h6CXguFU/HJ6+ h/cG9fT+oU9A7joKHyK2NLqtKmVXkikgJWrvFpxwDZYa4AoHm/5ZXxLtffHYr1kRpb sQmnQVFYLquBUDUlR6MFn96fcvnrSVEpZWA5D9zU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D8878240AA0; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 15:33:05 -0700 (PDT) To: adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <147784375838.20673.15513470878299688311.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <000901d232c9$5841d390$08c57ab0$@olddog.co.uk> <022101d23460$7c283400$74789c00$@olddog.co.uk> <6301d383-b1f9-8bb9-efa3-c0dadacf6d52@joelhalpern.com> <026801d23470$8228f730$867ae590$@olddog.co.uk> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:34:54 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <026801d23470$8228f730$867ae590$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mackie-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-01.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 22:33:09 -0000 I had thought an earlier discussion in the SFC WG had clarified that the decrement was by 1. Since that did not happen, I have now forwarded that question to them. Other comments in line. Yours, Joel PS: Given the announcement, I should clarify that what I am writing here is my personal opinion. Even when I comment on WG action, that is based on my prior participation, not a current conclusion as co-chair. PPS: One of the reasons I would like to see this discussed more on the SFC list is that I would prefer that other SFC members take the lead on these issues now that I am a co-chair. On 11/1/16 2:48 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > >>>> 1) I like the idea of being able to support multiple SFC overlays. >>>> I can see circumstances when this would be valuable. However, I can >>>> not see how it works. (I presume I am missing something obvious.) >>>> If the SPI are unique, then sure, it works, but they are not really >>>> separate overlays. They are merely administrative slices of the same > overlay. >>>> The text in section 5 bullet 1 starts with observing that the path >>>> state is RT specific. That part is fine. It then asserts that the >>>> SFF that receives a packet can somehow tell which RT the packet goes >>>> with. How? Since the underlay is not partitioned into RTs (only the >>>> overlay) the transport mechanism does not indicate that. And the >>>> data packet does not carry an RT. >>> >>> Good catch! >>> >>> We wrote (section 4.3)... >>> The SPI is unique across all service function overlay networks >>> supported by the underlay network. >>> >>> This certainly makes life easier and comes at negligible cost because the > SPI >>> space can either be in the control of a single controller, or can be > partitioned >>> across multiple controllers. >>> >>> However, this could be relaxed a little. In the data plane it is the > combination >>> of tunnel/SPI that needs to be distinguishable (compare with how a L3VPN VRF >>> is identified). In the control plane, the RD/SPI needs to be globally > unique. So >>> we'll update the text to make that clear. >> >> I had missed the sentence in 4.3 where you said that the SPI are >> disjoint. If they are disjoint, it is not really separate overlays at >> all. The RT allows you to reduce stored state, but they are really all >> part of the same overlay (as they have to coordinate.) >> >> If we want to require that SFF are sensitive to the transport >> identification on which packets arrive (which may be MAC addresses, MPLS >> labels, ...) then yes, we could divide by using separate transport >> identifiers for an SFF which is in multiple overlays. Seems very >> fragile. I do hope there is a robust way to make it work. > > This fragility has been used in many places without a problem for a while. > I would point at TCP port numbers. I would note the use labels to identify VPN > instances. Oh, and per-interface label spaces? > It works. Actually, I have seen lots of complaints obout the difficulty of using per-interface MPLS labels. More importantly, when this was discussed on the SFC list, folks agreed that per-interface behavior was undesirable, so we avoided it. > ... > >>>> 3) I am a bit confused by section 6.1 on looping, jumping, and >>>> branching. Looping (more accurately spiraling) should not require >>>> any special handling. Simply put the same SFI information at two >>>> different SIs in the same SPI, and spiraling occurs. No special >>>> handling needed. >>>> >>>> Jumping seems to be a special case of reclassificaiton. So I would >>>> prefer to see it simply handled by the same mechanism (why have two >>>> mechanisms that can do the same job.) >>>> >>>> Branching seems not to handle the most common case where we need to >>>> branch. That is the situation where packets in a given SFP, as a >>>> result of processing by an SF, will usually continue down the SFP, >>>> but under some circumstances (and there are a range of them) will >>>> need to take a different path. >>>> >>>> The Assumption in the SFC work is that the SF indicates the need for >>>> reclassificiation by adjusting the flags in the NSH header, and that >>>> a classifier co-resident with the SFF then performs reclassification. >>>> The mechanism you describe in section 6.1 does not seem to support that. >>> >>> You are right that jumping, looping (let's keep that term because it is > clear >>> that it means going back to a particular point), and branching are all > similar. >>> That is, they all involve a different behavior from the normal >>> decrement-SI-and-get-on-with-it style of advancing down the chain. But, >>> obviously, they are subtly different and pose different problems. >>> >>> You are also correct that *if* the processing is linear (i.e., no choice >>> involved) then looping can be encoded as a straight-forward sequence in the >>> SFP, jumping would be unnecessary because the jumped-over hops would >>> not need to be in the chain at all, and branching would really just be a >>> shorthand. But we are covering the case where the progress is conditional >>> on something - call it reclassification if you like, or consider is a > policy-based >>> decision. In these cases, SFP must encode the choice. >>> >>> Additionally, the looped-back-to SFF has to have forwarding state dependent >>> on the SI it is processing. By re-using the SI (i.e., looping back to > exactly a >>> previous point on the SFP) we minimize that state. >> >> SFF forwarding state is explicitly required by the NSH draft to be SI >> dependent. If an SFF gets a packet with an SI it does not recognize, >> then it is required to drop the packet. So this SI state is needed. > > I think you are making an architectural assumption that a packet received "from > the wire" will be treated exactly the same as a packet received from a local SF. > I can see why you might want to have that (and why it forces the SF to decrement > the SI) but I don't see it in RFC 7665. That is the assumption the SFC group made during the work on the NSH document. RFC 7665 does not mandate that, and probably would have been overly-specifying the solution if it had. > > Anyway (!) my point was not that no SI state is need, but that by re-entering an > SFP (i.e. by re-using an SI) you can save state (by not needing state for other > SIs). We specifically did not want to have re-entry with the same SPI and SI. Section 5.4 of RFC 7665 stated the requirement, but not the solution. Simply using the path, with decrementing SIs, and recurrance of the same SFF (with or without the same SF) meets this. We do understand that reclassification can produce loops. Personally, the "state savings" you are claiming seems very small. And means that observing the forwarding and diagnosing problems will be harder since the same SPI with the same SI may lead to different behaviors. Ouch. ... > And, metadata is exactly how we observed that an infinite loop would be avoided. Given that SFF are not required to handle any metadata, I do not see how metadata can prevent infinite loops with the proposed handling. It seems a significant risk for a tiny state savings. ... >> Having said all that, given that the function to be invoked for your >> special path markers is undefined, I do not see how it is helpful to >> include them in the chain. The SFF has no way, from that information, >> to know what it is supposed to do. And having the markers does not help >> it perform better reclassification. And further, the classifier knows >> what result it wants, so having more specific markers does not seem to >> help anything. > > I understand half of your point, but disagree. A classifier in your scheme must > be fully programmed, and when new non-simple actions are required it must be > reprogrammed. > In our scheme a simple policy may be installed at the classifier and the > definition of the chain describes the available options. > Furthermore, the choice may be as simple as "load balancing" in which case > calling the function "re-classification" may be over egging. > Lastly, a common "final step" in a chain may be to splice it into another chain. > This saves a lot of programming and allows for management of common chain > segments. That operation requires a specific hop description in the first chain > - effectively a branch instruction. > > The bit I don't understand is where you say "the function to be invoked for your > special path markers is undefined," so I can't answer it. > The problem is that there is no means for the SFF to know from what is being circulated, hwo to tell when to invoke the special processing and when not to invoke the special processing. ... >>>> 4) I notice that the examples still show the SI being adjusted by >>>> more than 1. The NSH draft has been clarified, at the request of >>>> the AD and WG, to make it clear that the SI is decremented by 1 at each > hop. >>>> (If that were not the case, we would need additional information in >>>> the control as to how much to decrement the SI. Which would be a >>>> complication with no value.) >>> >>> I think you may be using the Future Perfect form of the Present Tense, Joel. >>> The current version of the draft (-10) shows "decrement" and has no >>> mention of requiring a unitary decrement. >>> But, frankly, this is not relevant. >>> We absolutely support the possibility of decrementing the SI by just one. >>> But we also support re-classification that is co-resident in the SF and > changes >>> the SI by a different amount. >>> We think that the SFF does not need to be able to tell whether an SF has >>> invoked re-classification and therefore it should be built to expect and > SPI/SI >>> on returned packets. >> >> I am guessing that most of us working on this assumed that "decrement" >> meant "decrease by 1". > > Guess away! > > Actually, I am grumpy. > You said above > "The NSH draft has been clarified, at the request of the AD and WG, to make it > clear that the SI is decremented by 1 at each hop." > Not only has that update not been made, but you just sent mail to the SFC list > to ask them what they think "decrement" means. > If the WG has already agreed this you surely don't need to ask again. > I do see the question raised by Alia in her review on October 5th, but I see no > follow-up to this point on the list. > So, no, there is no agreement about the SF decrementing by one at each hop. As noted above, I had thought we had agreed to make such a clarification. I was mistaken. The fact that there waas confusion means we do need to clarify the text. The SFC WG will have to decide what it wants regarding the decrement behavior. > >> The problem is that if the decrease can be >> arbitrary then we need to include in the provisioning model the amount >> to decrease. We could do that. And add text making clear that the >> decrement is variable. Or we could add text making clear what we have >> assumed, that it is unitary. The fact that you read it as allowing >> larger decrements means that we need to be clearer one way or the other. > > Agreed. Clarity is king. > >> Personally, I consider modifying an in-place chain rare enough that >> needing to instead create a new chain, create the state for it, and then >> change the classification rules to use the new chain to be a cleaner and >> more robust way to get there. But that is just my take. > > It is messy if that chain is used by other chains (as "branch to"). I do not see why the ability to branch to a chain adds any complexity. In general, what we have observed is that most reu-use cases are most cleanly handled (in terms of human planning and automatic operation) if the thing branched to is a free-standing chain, not part of something else. As such, the initial SI will be 255. Thus, it has nothing to do with the gaps or changes when things are inserted. Again, the state cost of doing this is small, and the management benefit is high. I will grant that neither the architecture nor the NSH document prohibit reclassifying into the middle of another service chain. But I do not see any reason to optimize for such a case. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > From nobody Wed Nov 2 09:20:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E951296C8 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:20:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.031 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dvb_eIAHmMmm for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (r-mail2.rd.orange.com [217.108.152.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021891294AC for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id AE99D5D8630; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 17:20:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by r-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A880D5D84F2; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 17:20:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [172.31.0.98] (10.193.116.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 17:20:33 +0100 To: References: <5805DD1E.4000400@nokia.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <47831dbd-367e-4b7a-6489-6d55571bfff8@orange.com> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 17:20:32 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5805DD1E.4000400@nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Martin Vigoureux Subject: [bess] IMPORTANT: please resend your slots requests for BESS WG session - IETF 97 - Seoul ! X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: BESS Chairs List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 16:20:36 -0000 Hi everyone, You need to resend your request for a slot (unless the WG or Thomas were Cc'd in your initial email). The reason behind this is that Martin's PC suffered from a crash today. With our apologies for the inconvenience and for being late to post an agenda... Thomas/Martin Martin Vigoureux: > All, > > it is time we start building the BESS WG agenda for Seoul. > The IETF agenda is available at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/agenda.html > Please note that it is still a preliminary agenda. > > The BESS WG session (2h) is currently scheduled on > Monday, 14th of November, Afternoon session I 13:30-15:30 (local time) > > Please send us your request for a presentation slot, indicating > draft name, speaker and desired duration (covering presentation + > discussion) > > Please send the requests no later than the 30th of October. > Thank you > > M&T > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Wed Nov 2 09:45:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E791A129481; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:45:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2H1WykZE_7HW; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam03on0124.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.40.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3050127735; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:45:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-juniper-net; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=lTkLGNMXVc9Okw+/QG00QpXBPjbwxK6KB/RyM0qTq2I=; b=bnejd08iVt/hQ6koMqoXQ+fbHs++hx2hIN749AIMNZ8yxCARBvlvBEie1rToYB8x7kItn33Kt8I8aMPRL98UsMM9YNvk9ZTbEuZgF9kq0e2Q8UBXzo4QSyVS8gxOJqFYBE0yJ/WelHjcTZNSVp3Tp3NAgYdpC4zCAOfINtolGE4= Received: from BN6PR05MB2995.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.173.19.13) by BN6PR05MB2994.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.173.19.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.707.1; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 16:45:44 +0000 Received: from BN6PR05MB2995.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.19.13]) by BN6PR05MB2995.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.19.13]) with mapi id 15.01.0707.004; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 16:45:44 +0000 From: John E Drake To: BESS Chairs , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] IMPORTANT: please resend your slots requests for BESS WG session - IETF 97 - Seoul ! Thread-Index: AQHSNSUO8+pylxVz8UuOO/D8YLCOe6DF5lIw Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 16:45:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5805DD1E.4000400@nokia.com> <47831dbd-367e-4b7a-6489-6d55571bfff8@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <47831dbd-367e-4b7a-6489-6d55571bfff8@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jdrake@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ce5674b5-9b98-4cd5-4fd8-08d4033fb0a0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR05MB2994; 7:V1UVM9JAI1iuuZ+005XPdbt1T+iyR57JzyQF9Z8lkmcHUK8MVzHFr8O8D0n2WRi8h/VYvyiB6rifMrlVvaBUpEO8Zd4xoIeGKvQExFNcTSwD9BHChUT31D1XB++345FDU8R7Ju74xg0sze4Pjvxod+A0CIa6eMDmsAVFrkTNR+J9wsnNF10vh/bxRMYGBs9kvresa7KdJM1yNP2akqZu8CJg3d79qWp7kAa/VzYN5PQdF9UfypvR5oC0trsfjv5j8zDyfZ94vzeHE7FlCbo/l6R/Jx5f9VZrU4kqHZoKUGcipKWIoHORxG39NRMZx4T2EQzxf+Hp33VmhCT61WiItuXTH1C1+jfcAmypvjZMn5c= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BN6PR05MB2994; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(120809045254105)(82608151540597); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040176)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001)(6055026); SRVR:BN6PR05MB2994; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN6PR05MB2994; x-forefront-prvs: 0114FF88F6 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(7916002)(53754006)(189002)(13464003)(377454003)(199003)(102836003)(76576001)(2906002)(2950100002)(8936002)(5002640100001)(74316002)(86362001)(5660300001)(101416001)(33656002)(7696004)(50986999)(10400500002)(76176999)(54356999)(7736002)(19580395003)(19580405001)(66066001)(586003)(7846002)(305945005)(77096005)(106356001)(15975445007)(106116001)(105586002)(99286002)(92566002)(189998001)(3280700002)(3660700001)(81166006)(122556002)(2900100001)(81156014)(3846002)(2501003)(6116002)(9686002)(4326007)(8676002)(87936001)(5001770100001)(11100500001)(97736004)(68736007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN6PR05MB2994; H:BN6PR05MB2995.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Nov 2016 16:45:44.6180 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR05MB2994 Archived-At: Cc: Martin Vigoureux Subject: Re: [bess] IMPORTANT: please resend your slots requests for BESS WG session - IETF 97 - Seoul ! X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 16:45:48 -0000 Thomas and Martin, Adrian, Eric, and I would like to request two 10-15 minute slots at the BES= S Seoul meeting to discuss the following two drafts: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-drake-bess-datacenter-gateway-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mackie-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-01 Yours Irrespectively, John > -----Original Message----- > From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Morin > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 12:21 PM > To: bess@ietf.org > Cc: Martin Vigoureux > Subject: [bess] IMPORTANT: please resend your slots requests for BESS WG > session - IETF 97 - Seoul ! >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > You need to resend your request for a slot (unless the WG or Thomas were = Cc'd > in your initial email). > The reason behind this is that Martin's PC suffered from a crash today. >=20 > With our apologies for the inconvenience and for being late to post an ag= enda... >=20 > Thomas/Martin >=20 >=20 > Martin Vigoureux: > > All, > > > > it is time we start building the BESS WG agenda for Seoul. > > The IETF agenda is available at: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/agenda.html > > Please note that it is still a preliminary agenda. > > > > The BESS WG session (2h) is currently scheduled on Monday, 14th of > > November, Afternoon session I 13:30-15:30 (local time) > > > > Please send us your request for a presentation slot, indicating draft > > name, speaker and desired duration (covering presentation + > > discussion) > > > > Please send the requests no later than the 30th of October. > > Thank you > > > > M&T > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BESS mailing list > > BESS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Wed Nov 2 12:05:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C797A129B1D for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 12:05:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3bwG-ECa02nE for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 12:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam03on0101.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.40.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68618129B59 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-juniper-net; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=NVEOpthg5SaOZQt2WTwOjXinsHtGicMU4NnMTqH8MKI=; b=YRDh5g7sklSnXRQCB7ClxEDI9t6BVn/+rW3vra8Kl5NCRRM7bdQgtQT7bT0i6wwnraFdK045GjKbXxdeJ9XOk5zvTCXtAv+vb9AiO6F1hGCT2N61gs+QoddEB72JPg1SP7PhwGF6EvWoi4oLzigdA1VtQy9p9kDwPZbqprFx5kI= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=erosen@juniper.net; Received: from [172.29.33.219] (66.129.241.13) by BY2PR05MB2182.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.112.10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.707.1; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 19:05:12 +0000 To: "Joel M. 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The RT allows you to reduce stored state, but they are really all part of the same overlay (as they have to coordinate.) I think it's pretty well understood how to use the mechanism of RTs and RDs to install routes for overlapping address spaces, as long as the addresses are unique in the relevant context. Reusing an SPI value in a different overlay is no different than reusing an IP address in a different VPN. [Joel] we could divide by using separate transport identifiers for an SFF which is in multiple overlays. Seems very fragile. I do hope there is a robust way to make it work. ??? When multiple overlays exist over a common infrastructure, it's quite common to have a separate set of tunnels for each overlay, and to have a control plane that associates each tunnel with the proper overlay. [Joel] The assumption in the SFC work is that the SF indicates the need for reclassification by adjusting the flags in the NSH header, and that a classifier co-resident with the SFF then performs reclassification. The mechanism you describe in section 6.1 does not seem to support that Actually, the draft does not say anything whatsoever about how the SF talks to a co-resident classifier. The draft is really concerned only with the fact that the SFF passes a packet to a "local" service function, and ultimately gets the packet back with an NSH that contains an SPI/SI. The question is -- what are the possible SPI/SI values that the packet may have when the SFF gets it back? In order to do "fast path" forwarding, the SFF needs to create forwarding state for this set of SPI/SI's. If arbitrary reclassification is possible, then any value of SPI/SI may be seen when the packet comes back, and forwarding state needs to be created for every valid SPI/SI value. It's good to have some indication in advance about which SPI/SI values one is likely to see when the packet returns; this allows one to maintain only the set of forwarding states that one is likely to see. That's what the markers are for. Of course, this is just an optimization meant to improve performance and scaling. Perhaps you are saying that it is impossible to create these markers, as there is no way to tell in advance just what a classifier may do when reclassifying. Or perhaps you're saying something else that you don't like these markers, because they implicitly restrict the sort of reclassification that can be done. [Joel] If an SFF gets a packet with an SI it does not recognize, then it is required to drop the packet. The NSH draft only requires that the packet be dropped if its SPI/SI do not "correspond" to a "valid" next hop. Note that the quoted terms do not appear to be defined. This leaves a lot of leeway for interpretation. For instance, given an SPI, SPI-X, whose elements are <, >, one might decide that refers to SF2. Why? Because 5 is the largest SI in SPI-X that is not larger than 9. If done this way, decrementing the SI by 1 would always get you to the next hop, even if successive SIs are not successive integers. Now suppose that an SPI is modified in real time, by adding or deleting elements. Since the SPIs are learned dynamically, when a change is made, there will be a convergence period during which not everyone has seen the change. I think you will see much more predictable behavior during the convergence period if the SIs are not changed. [Joel] Personally, I consider modifying an in-place chain rare enough that needing to instead create a new chain, create the state for it, and then change the classification rules to use the new chain to be a cleaner and more robust way to get there. But that is just my take. I don't know whether this will be rare, but perhaps we don't have to decide now how rare that will be. Also, I don't see any reason to believe that replacing one chain with another is "cleaner and more robust" than modifying a chain that is in use. From nobody Wed Nov 2 13:48:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0955B129421 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 13:48:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nUET0yG0lptY for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C16E51295CE for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4053244E26; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1478119679; bh=+9JWin04z43LaCGDk5F0aAGXyfu0UkrQSIOQad/xNbg=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DnTpYQXmNfg2rtKumUnDtsIt4JSQk/Z4sPSKjMZIrdAMpiF6hrOmg1aYC2fnfZCcg nBJismOUOI7GeH7hTq+2925OhidSukt4dVFedQski8CbR7Xhea/fuHhXwrg7v3B56u QCbwYrPwVlfVuRRuuChwdxDyhlouJ/W6Tw2MAZgs= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 156F9245BD8; Wed, 2 Nov 2016 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric C Rosen , adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <147784375838.20673.15513470878299688311.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <000901d232c9$5841d390$08c57ab0$@olddog.co.uk> <022101d23460$7c283400$74789c00$@olddog.co.uk> <6301d383-b1f9-8bb9-efa3-c0dadacf6d52@joelhalpern.com> <5fb08bb1-402c-0bfb-933f-78c8c91dbcf3@juniper.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 16:50:08 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5fb08bb1-402c-0bfb-933f-78c8c91dbcf3@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mackie-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-01.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 20:48:01 -0000 Trimming to those issues where I understand the disagreement enough to comment. I would observe that what we are discussing is really SFC definition. As such, I would like to ask that we at least copy the SFC list (I have not done so as this is currently a BESS document.) Yorus, Joel On 11/2/16 3:04 PM, Eric C Rosen wrote: ... > [Joel] The assumption in the SFC work is that the SF indicates the need > for reclassification by adjusting the flags in the NSH header, and that > a classifier co-resident with the SFF then performs reclassification. > The mechanism you describe in section 6.1 does not seem to support that > > Actually, the draft does not say anything whatsoever about how the SF > talks to a co-resident classifier. > > The draft is really concerned only with the fact that the SFF passes a > packet to a "local" service function, and ultimately gets the packet > back with an NSH that contains an SPI/SI. The question is -- what are > the possible SPI/SI values that the packet may have when the SFF gets it > back? In order to do "fast path" forwarding, the SFF needs to create > forwarding state for this set of SPI/SI's. If arbitrary > reclassification is possible, then any value of SPI/SI may be seen when > the packet comes back, and forwarding state needs to be created for > every valid SPI/SI value. It's good to have some indication in advance > about which SPI/SI values one is likely to see when the packet returns; > this allows one to maintain only the set of forwarding states that one > is likely to see. That's what the markers are for. Of course, this is > just an optimization meant to improve performance and scaling. Mostly, I think this is backwards. The only valid values for SPI/SI that can be given back to the SFF by the SF are those for which the SFF has forwarding state. Any other values will result in the packet being dropped. the SFF does not create this forwarding state from whole cloth. It creates this state from the information provided by the control mechanism (BGP, ForCES, NetConf, XMPP, ...) The SFF does not care what the SF will hand it. Rather, it cares what it is supposed to forward, and to where. Even when arbitrary reclassification is possible, control mechanisms need to be coordinated such that the markings the classifier wants to produce correspond to forwarding state the SFF has. Due to classifier configuration being complex, highly varied, and outside the scope of SFC, we have not dealt with the quesiton of how classifiers are configured. I presume similar reasons drive why this BGP proposal does not do so either. Your explanation does lead me to a guess as to what the special route intreis in your draft are for. Are you trying to automate the process of an SFF knowing that it is effectively the ingress for certain service function paths? If so, I can understand the value in such information. But I could not get there from what was in teh draft. Instead of talking about lopping, jumping, and branching, the case that seems to need special handling is "ingressing". This can be the result of reclassification. Or it can be the result of an SF generating a new packet and marking / classifying it. > > Perhaps you are saying that it is impossible to create these markers, as > there is no way to tell in advance just what a classifier may do when > reclassifying. I am saying that the set of markers in the BGP draft seem to cover cases they don't need to cover, and not cover cases that they need to cover in order to handle all of the provisioning of the SFF. > > Or perhaps you're saying something else that you don't like these > markers, because they implicitly restrict the sort of reclassification > that can be done. > > [Joel] If an SFF gets a packet with an SI it does not recognize, then it > is required to drop the packet. > > The NSH draft only requires that the packet be dropped if its SPI/SI do > not "correspond" to a "valid" next hop. Note that the quoted terms do > not appear to be defined. This leaves a lot of leeway for interpretation. Eric, on this you are stretching. If you really want us to add more specific wording,w e can. But as a participant it has seemed to me that the WG has understood these quite well, and that they are actually quite clear and reasonable words. If you want them clarified, we can do that. In contrast to your paragraph below, the WG has been clear that if an SFF has state for SPI X, SI Y, that does not mean that the SFF has state for any other SI value. While we allow for SFF that also look at other things (for example load balancing), the SPI/SI match is exact. > > For instance, given an SPI, SPI-X, whose elements are <, > >, one might decide that refers to SF2. > Why? Because 5 is the largest SI in SPI-X that is not larger than 9. > If done this way, decrementing the SI by 1 would always get you to the > next hop, even if successive SIs are not successive integers. > > Now suppose that an SPI is modified in real time, by adding or deleting > elements. Since the SPIs are learned dynamically, when a change is > made, there will be a convergence period during which not everyone has > seen the change. I think you will see much more predictable behavior > during the convergence period if the SIs are not changed. > > [Joel] Personally, I consider modifying an in-place chain rare enough > that needing to instead create a new chain, create the state for it, and > then change the classification rules to use the new chain to be a > cleaner and more robust way to get there. But that is just my take. > > I don't know whether this will be rare, but perhaps we don't have to > decide now how rare that will be. Also, I don't see any reason to > believe that replacing one chain with another is "cleaner and more > robust" than modifying a chain that is in use. On this, reasoanble people may differ. Which is why I asked the SFC working group how they understand the text. Given the confusion, it clearly needs to be clarified. > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Thu Nov 3 06:54:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAFD129616 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 06:54:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g16mRsnw4Fna for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 06:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM01-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam01on0097.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.34.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 938D2129632 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 06:54:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-juniper-net; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=/xeD3xHZlidAyLfloYX0bcRAyNdh54+7ovTRQNrd/2M=; b=gDD6+vuBvOopmrK+T333QfS4Ux6I/RSaJJrqDINcKEnVsOdodHaSH2Xv/4SIfZmg7q9/p8utiYA/odr+oXMk4zDrIXyUsODAI0Tk6KbMqIsKNzq8h35mdX9nclnWI9G8ENrJBANfEkfoU2oq8j/PDmgH5/LgLouNJ3r8/I4Y6DE= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=erosen@juniper.net; Received: from [172.29.33.219] (66.129.241.13) by BL2PR05MB2180.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.167.98.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.707.1; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 13:54:03 +0000 To: "Joel M. 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Halpern wrote: > I would observe that what we are discussing is really SFC definition. That's what you're discussing ;-), but we're just trying to devise a way that a node can figure out where the next node in the service chain for a particular packet is, how to get the packet there, and how to set up the forwarding tables to achieve that. > The draft is really concerned only with the fact that the SFF passes a > packet to a "local" service function, and ultimately gets the packet > back with an NSH that contains an SPI/SI. The question is -- what are > the possible SPI/SI values that the packet may have when the SFF gets it > back? In order to do "fast path" forwarding, the SFF needs to create > forwarding state for this set of SPI/SI's. If arbitrary > reclassification is possible, then any value of SPI/SI may be seen when > the packet comes back, and forwarding state needs to be created for > every valid SPI/SI value. It's good to have some indication in advance > about which SPI/SI values one is likely to see when the packet returns; > this allows one to maintain only the set of forwarding states that one > is likely to see. That's what the markers are for. Of course, this is > just an optimization meant to improve performance and scaling. >> Mostly, I think this is backwards. The only valid values for SPI/SI >> that can be given back to the SFF by the SF are those for which the >> SFF has forwarding state. Any other values will result in the packet >> being dropped. the SFF does not create this forwarding state from >> whole cloth. It creates this state from the information provided by >> the control mechanism (BGP, ForCES, NetConf, XMPP, ...) The SFF does >> not care what the SF will hand it. Rather, it cares what it is >> supposed to forward, and to where. > I don't see any difference between what you stated and what I stated. However you say it, the SFF has to have forwarding state for whatever SPI/SI values it might see in an NSH, and does not have to have forwarding state for values that it will not see. > Even when arbitrary reclassification is possible, control mechanisms > need to be coordinated such that the markings the classifier wants to > produce correspond to forwarding state the SFF has. Of course, that's what I said. You seem to be trying hard to disagree with something, but I really don't understand the content of the disagreement. > I am saying that the set of markers in the BGP draft seem to cover > cases they don't need to cover, and not cover cases that they need to > cover in order to handle all of the provisioning of the SFF. I think we are having trouble following your argument here. Do you have an example of how the mechanisms in the draft will produce incorrect forwarding state? > The NSH draft only requires that the packet be dropped if its SPI/SI do > not "correspond" to a "valid" next hop. Note that the quoted terms do > not appear to be defined. This leaves a lot of leeway for > interpretation. > >> Eric, on this you are stretching. If you really want us to add more >> specific wording, we can. But as a participant it has seemed to me >> that the WG has understood these quite well, and that they are >> actually quite clear and reasonable words. The use of undefined terms like this usually hides disagreements and differing interpretations. >> If you want them clarified, we can do that. In contrast to your >> paragraph below, the WG has been clear that if an SFF has state for >> SPI X, SI Y, that does not mean that the SFF has state for any other >> SI value. While we allow for SFF that also look at other things (for >> example load balancing), the SPI/SI match is exact. > Perhaps the WG did not think of the advantages of allowing a more flexible scheme. Or to put it another way, allowing more flexibility here doesn't really seem to damage the architecture in any way. If we are wrong about that, perhaps someone will explain what goes wrong if one interprets "SI=n" to mean "whatever SI is closest to n without being greater than n". 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(8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id uA3FPAg4047456; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:27:56 -0400 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049287.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 26g7dy1q0t-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 03 Nov 2016 11:27:56 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uA3FRthk025040; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:27:55 -0400 Received: from mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.241]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uA3FRkee024882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:27:49 -0400 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.150]) by mlpi409.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Thu, 3 Nov 2016 15:27:30 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRCD.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.4.251]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAF.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:27:30 -0400 From: "UTTARO, JAMES" To: Eric C Rosen , "Joel M. Halpern" , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Thread-Topic: [bess] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mackie-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHSMsf6VAAECMF6a0aPaw+TKILIJqDBcCwAgAALl4CAAyKwgIAACFuAgAGus4CAAB1hAIABHhUA///WxfA= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 15:27:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <147784375838.20673.15513470878299688311.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <000901d232c9$5841d390$08c57ab0$@olddog.co.uk> <022101d23460$7c283400$74789c00$@olddog.co.uk> <6301d383-b1f9-8bb9-efa3-c0dadacf6d52@joelhalpern.com> <5fb08bb1-402c-0bfb-933f-78c8c91dbcf3@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.91.76.120] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public, LOCAL SERVICE X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-11-03_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1609300000 definitions=main-1611030286 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mackie-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-01.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2016 15:28:29 -0000 Comments In-Line.. Jim Uttaro -----Original Message----- From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 9:54 AM To: Joel M. Halpern ; adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] FW: New Version Notification for draft-mackie-bess-nsh-= bgp-control-plane-01.txt On 11/2/2016 4:50 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I would observe that what we are discussing is really SFC definition. That's what you're discussing ;-), but we're just trying to devise a way=20 that a node can figure out where the next node in the service chain for=20 a particular packet is, how to get the packet there, and how to set up=20 the forwarding tables to achieve that. [Jim U>] +1 > The draft is really concerned only with the fact that the SFF passes a > packet to a "local" service function, and ultimately gets the packet > back with an NSH that contains an SPI/SI. The question is -- what are > the possible SPI/SI values that the packet may have when the SFF gets it > back? In order to do "fast path" forwarding, the SFF needs to create > forwarding state for this set of SPI/SI's. If arbitrary > reclassification is possible, then any value of SPI/SI may be seen when > the packet comes back, and forwarding state needs to be created for > every valid SPI/SI value. It's good to have some indication in advance > about which SPI/SI values one is likely to see when the packet returns; > this allows one to maintain only the set of forwarding states that one > is likely to see. That's what the markers are for. Of course, this is > just an optimization meant to improve performance and scaling. >> Mostly, I think this is backwards. The only valid values for SPI/SI=20 >> that can be given back to the SFF by the SF are those for which the=20 >> SFF has forwarding state. Any other values will result in the packet=20 >> being dropped. the SFF does not create this forwarding state from=20 >> whole cloth. It creates this state from the information provided by=20 >> the control mechanism (BGP, ForCES, NetConf, XMPP, ...) The SFF does=20 >> not care what the SF will hand it. Rather, it cares what it is=20 >> supposed to forward, and to where.=20 > I don't see any difference between what you stated and what I stated. =20 However you say it, the SFF has to have forwarding state for whatever=20 SPI/SI values it might see in an NSH, and does not have to have=20 forwarding state for values that it will not see. > Even when arbitrary reclassification is possible, control mechanisms=20 > need to be coordinated such that the markings the classifier wants to=20 > produce correspond to forwarding state the SFF has. Of course, that's what I said. You seem to be trying hard to disagree with something, but I really=20 don't understand the content of the disagreement. > I am saying that the set of markers in the BGP draft seem to cover=20 > cases they don't need to cover, and not cover cases that they need to=20 > cover in order to handle all of the provisioning of the SFF. I think we are having trouble following your argument here. Do you have=20 an example of how the mechanisms in the draft will produce incorrect=20 forwarding state? > The NSH draft only requires that the packet be dropped if its SPI/SI do > not "correspond" to a "valid" next hop. Note that the quoted terms do > not appear to be defined. This leaves a lot of leeway for=20 > interpretation. > >> Eric, on this you are stretching. If you really want us to add more=20 >> specific wording, we can. But as a participant it has seemed to me=20 >> that the WG has understood these quite well, and that they are=20 >> actually quite clear and reasonable words.=20 The use of undefined terms like this usually hides disagreements and=20 differing interpretations. >> If you want them clarified, we can do that. In contrast to your=20 >> paragraph below, the WG has been clear that if an SFF has state for=20 >> SPI X, SI Y, that does not mean that the SFF has state for any other=20 >> SI value. While we allow for SFF that also look at other things (for=20 >> example load balancing), the SPI/SI match is exact.=20 > Perhaps the WG did not think of the advantages of allowing a more=20 flexible scheme. Or to put it another way, allowing more flexibility=20 here doesn't really seem to damage the architecture in any way. If we=20 are wrong about that, perhaps someone will explain what goes wrong if=20 one interprets "SI=3Dn" to mean "whatever SI is closest to n without being= =20 greater than n". _______________________________________________ BESS mailing list BESS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Fri Nov 4 13:29:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F231295B0 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 13:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.017 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.017 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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[135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id uA8HPkoD028143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2016 18:25:49 +0100 Received: from [135.224.213.23] (135.239.27.39) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.112) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Tue, 8 Nov 2016 18:25:45 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux To: BESS Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 18:25:30 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.39] Archived-At: Subject: [bess] Please send presentation material for BESS in Seoul X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 17:25:53 -0000 Hello, the agenda has been posted: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/agenda/agenda-97-bess-02 Please start sending your presentation material to Thomas and I. Please do so before Sunday the 13th of November, 23h59 Seoul local time. BESS session is on Monday and I'll be alone so please respect that deadline or take a serious risk of having your slot moved at the end :-) Thank you martin From nobody Tue Nov 8 22:20:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077A01294DB; Tue, 8 Nov 2016 22:20:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.018 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z3NTKKpXLPh5; Tue, 8 Nov 2016 22:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A787129479; Tue, 8 Nov 2016 22:20:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1519; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1478672431; x=1479882031; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:mime-version; bh=bnCcJcTYyBT8v5Oj1nL+ipUY/Udl84fMAkGdOyEva5U=; b=L4nF7ND16PCb0wZ21Yc6bIKBjxDJnMi92+QcOqjwoKl5fhGZzzAskEKP 5LBeyd/5ZMOeWvOAmFEmOWINxL3ufb/1/1dg+3mPEwQZYZD17900W/0sk lrUsJIn1Q+uaEnz8Dk2n5rftr8UuYjdNtSRdO/7VgE3Mi18Oznif6OyZ8 U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CmUwDzviJY/xbLJq1cGwEBAQMBAQEJA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBgy8BAQEBAXcsU6ckjFqDC4F0G4IIKYhKEwECAQEBAQEBAWIohFgzdAE+Al8?= =?us-ascii?q?BDAYCAQGIWA6xN4JAPosLAQsBJIY+gX2KJoJcBZouhjiKFII9hz2GHYlYg1uEB?= =?us-ascii?q?w8RAzJjDwqFMT00AYc3AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.31,465,1473120000"; d="scan'208,217";a="649807387" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Nov 2016 06:20:29 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.86] (ams-bclaise-8915.cisco.com [10.60.67.86]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uA96KTFd030564; Wed, 9 Nov 2016 06:20:29 GMT To: draft-ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang@ietf.org, "bess@ietf.org" From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: <9f5b832d-3a40-1c5d-7ed6-853a7f6f00ab@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 07:20:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6F96F3BC6F562C9BC1DAD50D" Archived-At: Subject: [bess] draft-ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang-02.txt: YANG compilation issue X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2016 06:20:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6F96F3BC6F562C9BC1DAD50D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear draft-ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang-02 authors, I uploaded the latest pyang version, which integrates a couple of bug fixes. It now reports a problem with your YANG module: ietf-l2vpn@2016-10-24.yang:356: error: unexpected keyword "must" See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html Regards, Benoit --------------6F96F3BC6F562C9BC1DAD50D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear draft-ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang-02 authors,

I uploaded the latest pyang version, which integrates a couple of bug fixes.
It now reports a problem with your YANG module: ietf-l2vpn@2016-10-24.yang:356: error: unexpected keyword "must"
See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html

Regards, Benoit
--------------6F96F3BC6F562C9BC1DAD50D-- From nobody Thu Nov 10 07:26:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A784129717; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 07:26:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.731 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.731 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83rgNDOhYQW8; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 07:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.orange.com (p-mail1.rd.orange.com [161.106.1.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20891297BC; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 07:26:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail1.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C9A87CC003; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:26:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by p-mail1.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114E5410242; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:26:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:26:45 +0100 From: Thomas Morin To: , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay@ietf.org" References: <147691219689.5713.10984703287619180065.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Organization: Orange Message-ID: <78714ceb-2b1c-2798-bfcb-1b9484685dff@orange.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:26:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <147691219689.5713.10984703287619180065.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [bess] Comments on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:26:49 -0000 Hi authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay, Here are a two comments on the changes in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05: > 5.1.3 Constructing EVPN BGP Routes > > In EVPN, an MPLS label identifying forwarding table is distributed by "identifying forwarding table" was inserted above in -05 Is the use of a per access circuit MPLS label really precluded ? Why ? [...] > 9 Support for Multicast > > The E-VPN Inclusive Multicast BGP route is used to discover the > multicast tunnels among the endpoints associated with a given EVI > (e.g., given VNI) for VLAN-based service and a given for > VLAN-aware bundle service. The Ethernet Tag field of this route is > set as described in section 5.1.3. It was agreed in June to strike this sentence, which does not seem to add any information. ( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/bess/current/msg01769.html ) Best, -Thomas From nobody Fri Nov 11 01:32:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD44129A94; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 01:32:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ah4l_HQZNGCk; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 01:32:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2A09129A93; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 01:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uAB9Wafa023884; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:32:36 GMT Received: from 950129200 (host217-36-58-153.in-addr.btopenworld.com [217.36.58.153]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uAB9WZuT023877 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:32:36 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:32:32 -0000 Message-ID: <0ac101d23bfe$8827fe20$9877fa60$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdI7/ni4FKnSrFlfQ8eui7evl19oAw== Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22692.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--3.454-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--3.454-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: XrcigEIn+bPaRs0xILLwuijQ4osdfamBnvBHr/aFnM4KXKtfi06bFKPF jJEFr+olfeZdJ1Xsorg6STqZBYtXndAtbEEX0MxBxEHRux+uk8jHUU+U0ACZwGDnBGcCH9rc+tA PFGB/c3ZflxAXwLlgMVjzTi5PiFO/JeJ1WMCERkGtftyYo2KwDjKpoRvzNKOP9DB8M7tiaMAWbf 9vijls8w== Archived-At: Cc: l2sm-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [bess] Reminder, L2SM working group formed and will meet in Seoul X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:32:40 -0000 Hi, Those of you interested in L2VPN service delivery may want to come along to the L2SM WG meeting: Thursday, 9:30 Thanks, Adrian From nobody Fri Nov 11 09:09:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9A712987F; 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Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:09:51 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 12:09:50 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 12:09:50 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: Thomas Morin , "bess@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHSO2bdWq6n+rBu+kyWYKDPeHJznaDT07aA Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:09:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <147691219689.5713.10984703287619180065.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <78714ceb-2b1c-2798-bfcb-1b9484685dff@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <78714ceb-2b1c-2798-bfcb-1b9484685dff@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.9.160926 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.76.52] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Comments on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:09:54 -0000 Hi Thomas, On 11/10/16, 7:26 AM, "Thomas Morin" wrote: >Hi authors of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay, > >Here are a two comments on the changes in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05: > >> 5.1.3 Constructing EVPN BGP Routes >> >> In EVPN, an MPLS label identifying forwarding table is distributed by > >"identifying forwarding table" was inserted above in -05 >Is the use of a per access circuit MPLS label really precluded ? Why ? It was added for clarification. To address your concern of not precluding ACs, I=B9ll change the sentence as below: from: "In EVPN, an MPLS label identifying forwarding table is distributed by" to: "In EVPN, an MPLS label typically identifying forwarding table is distributed by" =20 > >[...] >> 9 Support for Multicast >> >> The E-VPN Inclusive Multicast BGP route is used to discover the >> multicast tunnels among the endpoints associated with a given EVI >> (e.g., given VNI) for VLAN-based service and a given for >> VLAN-aware bundle service. The Ethernet Tag field of this route is >> set as described in section 5.1.3. > >It was agreed in June to strike this sentence, which does not seem to >add any information. >( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/bess/current/msg01769.html ) John agreed to strike the last sentence and not the whole paragraph. And frankly I think it is OK to keep the last sentence and to remind the reader that the Ethernet Tag field is set per section 5.1.3. We are not duplicating text here. We are just providing a reference. Cheers, Ali > >Best, > >-Thomas > > From nobody Sat Nov 12 14:32:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049191294D0; Sat, 12 Nov 2016 14:32:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tP7mRftpgQSC; Sat, 12 Nov 2016 14:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAD0B129405; Sat, 12 Nov 2016 14:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uACMWqEI028295; Sat, 12 Nov 2016 22:32:52 GMT Received: from 950129200 ([58.120.104.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uACMWm96028274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Nov 2016 22:32:51 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 22:32:46 -0000 Message-ID: <0df601d23d34$b30aaa20$191ffe60$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdI9NK6K0S6WFMknRGCGjbkKiKc7hg== Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22696.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--5.117-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--5.117-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 7ZzK4U4L8LQ9d1nHWxkekPHkpkyUphL9UcH09qBGmHRIRRbSf2xcTJxc qyimK04xpNkGX2Ew1qV8RJrzb34CraBW2ZrFVYNRma6DzXaohvMS12tj9Zvd8ypnHGSoRylAGlQ k6C/T3fExZkVI8xKeC1+24nCsUSFNExAtD/T72EbdB/CxWTRRu25FeHtsUoHuzvXPZh2qWVbOuM 1+QiEmiz1vOT2WcdYjVjf6+C1dk76+68HqACCvKA== Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 22:32:56 -0000 Joel said... > One of my concerns with the proposed BGP encoding is that it can = represent > many things that will not work. This seems to make it fragile. Joel, if I may, can I call you out on that generalisation? I don't find anything in your statement that I can discuss or debate. = Perhaps you could help with an example of what thing you might encode = that "will not work". Thanks, Adrian PS I have cross-posted this mail to SFC and BESS as requested by the AD From nobody Sun Nov 13 01:48:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28281294FE; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 01:48:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QFw9nKCAXPKu; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 01:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D7341294AD; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 01:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E14B240DBB; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 01:48:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1479030515; bh=50IisZJnyKAcsJrEqVo3fn40+xVqwOhOVWt13MTl9Uk=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=j5tPIZ3TrOTTMUnWG8DOuYYJ2U3JKTsTMBKu6njVr6kBzTtWmpeeJu3N7bo53KTzC Kozuau8/1X9Zg+kcXrxOBt9VwUScsd/XzV0PGW41x1iE3wRWRjm+Tj/mvFEeyAZY7t LjqPFXQJnqMaVMNZIX65CgrVoEF0iwv+QN8CxS2s= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from dhcp-93c0.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-93c0.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.147.192]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3EF44240144; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 01:48:34 -0800 (PST) To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, sfc@ietf.org References: <0df601d23d34$b30aaa20$191ffe60$@olddog.co.uk> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 04:48:46 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0df601d23d34$b30aaa20$191ffe60$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 09:48:36 -0000 Fair enough. In this case, what I was refering to is the combination of two preorpties of the encoding of paths. On teh one hand, it is extraordinarily flexible in being able to represent a broad range of delegated choices (as well as allowing the controller to advertise very specific things. At the same time, it has no explanations for which ways of using those tools will or will not work, are intended to work, or should not be used. One example is the quesiton i raised on the list is an SFP with two SFF each of which has two different SF types, A and B. That seems like a natural thing to do, given the coding. It is extremely unlikely to produce a desirable result in reality. There is significant value in a flexible represent. There is also significant danger if the users can not figure out what will and will not work. Or if they can not tell if the necessary external properties can be met. Yours, Joel On 11/12/16 5:32 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Joel said... > >> One of my concerns with the proposed BGP encoding is that it can represent >> many things that will not work. This seems to make it fragile. > > Joel, if I may, can I call you out on that generalisation? > > I don't find anything in your statement that I can discuss or debate. Perhaps you could help with an example of what thing you might encode that "will not work". > > Thanks, > Adrian > > PS I have cross-posted this mail to SFC and BESS as requested by the AD > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > From nobody Sun Nov 13 07:15:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EB5129675; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:15:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Hn5VXVPa2ve; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7557912955B; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uADFFdEi020157; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:15:39 GMT Received: from 950129200 ([58.120.104.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id uADFFZHP020143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:15:37 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Joel M. Halpern'" , References: <0df601d23d34$b30aaa20$191ffe60$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:15:34 -0000 Message-ID: <100b01d23dc0$ca9cbb10$5fd63130$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIERaviNwI8ZmZzRZpO6OqYuyC+7gIGeYDfoGKt+sA= Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1679-8.0.0.1202-22698.000 X-TM-AS-Result: No--25.985-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--25.985-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: TmlY9+XBoTnYfPOPCpnfAirlEE4jXe2UZdKh+/+x0Y6tj24Xqh0yXKF6 09GrmC7th41p4lzSNF/hVzYQMdzSdcwdQieqpnTaDwE3qnU/QTMQtuqs6BbPJwDqzaYhcjeQQ3V KD88yS8rSWpwKkD4fnQFjnZyRyQbkwrxsKoa/qe1ZluvuHEedhD8V4lh/3DF1fKvJLWOzfdDCX0 YsfK3COugdMXcgdbway0R2TzRAIA1m8SPGyjDNlbSw7varainhQvKiQ/1oohHadW4iYSMjUXAWu ORm0TIa7rYjKjSGs+18GgLoi0uCEhipbBBoU1Dtq32frrMnhEhk5GAa7kpXtw2G3vz8l/IEzhaO PCcV6YsyyOWBZC/udDeT288mssTUuJqllQ6sW7QD2WXLXdz+AVHB9PagRph0RJWmeOMHa+Svl7i J0qRezz+MHIPcs+ZxemcXt3vLEIsmH44HB04abVEp96PnqFJskk5xcxBziMER34ro7k23nfNvmS aCnjTlt+odoSua73aRk6XtYogiarQ/aqQZTRfKVnRXm1iHN1bEQdG7H66TyOk/y0w7JiZo Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] [sfc] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:15:44 -0000 I agree that there are risks associated with allowing configuration of options. Indeed, control of traffic paths from intelligence outside the network is a danger. However, we allow that and some operators even use it. True, those with fat fingers or buggy software may inadvertently send data down the wrong path, create loops, or black-hole traffic. But if we were to suggest that it should not be possible for control of paths to be applied from outside the network, then we might find ourselves in trouble. Similarly, however, we also consider the application of choice from within the network to be useful. Consider, for example, the loose hop in a traffic engineered path. It is clear that a choice exists, but we don't specify how a node that expands a loose hop works out what path to use: it's a policy choice how the loose hop is expanded. Now, in the specific case, suppose I conceive three different load balancers. They all do load balancing, but they do it differently. Let's assign them different service function types so we can distinguish them. Now let's assume that we really don't want to use one of them in our service function path, but that we are happy to see any instance of a function of either of the other types on the path. See what we can do with our proposal? But I suspect your concern is slightly more complex. I think you may be worried about how additional information to inform a choice might be passed to an SFF. I think that, just as in the traffic routing case, there are many ways to answer the question. But the simplest case is choosing between an allowed set of SFIs using the local policy for balancing SF load. Hope this helps, Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: 13 November 2016 09:49 > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; sfc@ietf.org > Cc: bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] [bess] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work > > Fair enough. > > In this case, what I was refering to is the combination of two > preorpties of the encoding of paths. > On teh one hand, it is extraordinarily flexible in being able to > represent a broad range of delegated choices (as well as allowing the > controller to advertise very specific things. > At the same time, it has no explanations for which ways of using those > tools will or will not work, are intended to work, or should not be used. > One example is the quesiton i raised on the list is an SFP with two SFF > each of which has two different SF types, A and B. That seems like a > natural thing to do, given the coding. It is extremely unlikely to > produce a desirable result in reality. > > There is significant value in a flexible represent. There is also > significant danger if the users can not figure out what will and will > not work. Or if they can not tell if the necessary external properties > can be met. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/12/16 5:32 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > > Joel said... > > > >> One of my concerns with the proposed BGP encoding is that it can represent > >> many things that will not work. This seems to make it fragile. > > > > Joel, if I may, can I call you out on that generalisation? > > > > I don't find anything in your statement that I can discuss or debate. Perhaps you > could help with an example of what thing you might encode that "will not work". > > > > Thanks, > > Adrian > > > > PS I have cross-posted this mail to SFC and BESS as requested by the AD > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BESS mailing list > > BESS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Sun Nov 13 08:00:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E023912956A; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 08:00:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yS902POp7KYc; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 08:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-8.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-8.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.56.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 311D312954F; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 08:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-8.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 08:00:18 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "'Joel M. Halpern'" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] [bess] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work Thread-Index: AQHSPZMcR4zL80381UuYqwJuxIlM/qDXjIUA//+DpdA= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:00:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0df601d23d34$b30aaa20$191ffe60$@olddog.co.uk> <100b01d23dc0$ca9cbb10$5fd63130$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <100b01d23dc0$ca9cbb10$5fd63130$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [100.0.27.181] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] [sfc] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:00:21 -0000 This was the very reason we introduced the concept of RSP. Perhaps the va= lue wasn't recognized so well at the time because we were wrestling with ot= her issues. But, IMO, RSP was always about the ability to have "loose hop= s" as Adrian describes. And, as Adrian describes, the option to build and= deploy a network that runs somewhat autonomously (like dynamic IP routing)= as well as still allowing for a network that is more strictly controlled f= rom an external entity, like the way we often describe SDN. Both are vali= d, but the former requires this "loose hop" "late binding" type of instance= selection capability. At one point, it was suggested by someone on the thread that the actual res= ulting RSP could be stamped into a type 2 TLV. Such an encoding would lik= ely require not just a sequence of SFI's, but a sequence of {SFF, SFI} to h= andle the multi-homed SFI case. It could be very useful for troubleshoot= ing and service assurance, too. Ron -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2016 10:16 AM To: 'Joel M. Halpern' ; sfc@ietf.org Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] [bess] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work I agree that there are risks associated with allowing configuration of opti= ons.=20 Indeed, control of traffic paths from intelligence outside the network is a= danger. However, we allow that and some operators even use it. True, those= with fat fingers or buggy software may inadvertently send data down the wr= ong path, create loops, or black-hole traffic. But if we were to suggest th= at it should not be possible for control of paths to be applied from outsid= e the network, then we might find ourselves in trouble. Similarly, however, we also consider the application of choice from within = the network to be useful. Consider, for example, the loose hop in a traffic= engineered path. It is clear that a choice exists, but we don't specify ho= w a node that expands a loose hop works out what path to use: it's a policy= choice how the loose hop is expanded. Now, in the specific case, suppose I conceive three different load balancer= s. They all do load balancing, but they do it differently. Let's assign them d= ifferent service function types so we can distinguish them. Now let's assum= e that we really don't want to use one of them in our service function path= , but that we are happy to see any instance of a function of either of the = other types on the path. See what we can do with our proposal? But I suspect your concern is slightly more complex. I think you may be wor= ried about how additional information to inform a choice might be passed to= an SFF. I think that, just as in the traffic routing case, there are many = ways to answer the question. But the simplest case is choosing between an a= llowed set of SFIs using the local policy for balancing SF load.=20 Hope this helps, Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: 13 November 2016 09:49 > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; sfc@ietf.org > Cc: bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] [bess] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not=20 > work >=20 > Fair enough. >=20 > In this case, what I was refering to is the combination of two=20 > preorpties of the encoding of paths. > On teh one hand, it is extraordinarily flexible in being able to=20 > represent a broad range of delegated choices (as well as allowing the=20 > controller to advertise very specific things. > At the same time, it has no explanations for which ways of using those=20 > tools will or will not work, are intended to work, or should not be used. > One example is the quesiton i raised on the list is an SFP with two=20 > SFF each of which has two different SF types, A and B. That seems=20 > like a natural thing to do, given the coding. It is extremely=20 > unlikely to produce a desirable result in reality. >=20 > There is significant value in a flexible represent. There is also=20 > significant danger if the users can not figure out what will and will=20 > not work. Or if they can not tell if the necessary external=20 > properties can be met. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/12/16 5:32 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > > Joel said... > > > >> One of my concerns with the proposed BGP encoding is that it can=20 > >> represent many things that will not work. This seems to make it fragi= le. > > > > Joel, if I may, can I call you out on that generalisation? > > > > I don't find anything in your statement that I can discuss or debate. Perhaps you > could help with an example of what thing you might encode that "will=20 > not work". > > > > Thanks, > > Adrian > > > > PS I have cross-posted this mail to SFC and BESS as requested by the=20 > > AD > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BESS mailing list > > BESS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Sun Nov 13 14:10:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FE11294A7; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:10:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QTtBJq5p5aYg; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 602691293D6; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5274C240DB1; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:10:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1479075040; bh=RXHvonKB6pxTq90TrxLw3UgeYY3nWXVEWvXyiz/QRng=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=j/dzdLLKztC0DENlFXGzol01i0w0AK+XPlM5FOm9q1GrWAeDExReZA1tQhxCmgZ8s uKBkvqhJUrncNZN5ZSc53ypBNXCm7wl1tl83qtENJ6ignHVOlqDU7HeG2X4gGkZIQW zjxSEvr9p3dZtb7lFn4G7mknx2CrXg7PhxgYkT80= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from dhcp-93c0.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-93c0.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.147.192]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65DB4240144; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:10:39 -0800 (PST) To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, sfc@ietf.org References: <0df601d23d34$b30aaa20$191ffe60$@olddog.co.uk> <100b01d23dc0$ca9cbb10$5fd63130$@olddog.co.uk> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:10:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <100b01d23dc0$ca9cbb10$5fd63130$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: Re: [bess] [sfc] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:10:42 -0000 In regard to this particular aspect of the proposal, my concern would be significantly alleviated if the text said that different service3 function types could be used in a choice only when they were interchangeable / equivalent for the purposes of the service function path. While there still would be ways to misuse it (that is true of most of our solutions), at least the develoepr and user would understand when it was expected to work. Yours, Joel On 11/13/16 10:15 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > I agree that there are risks associated with allowing configuration of options. > > Indeed, control of traffic paths from intelligence outside the network is a > danger. However, we allow that and some operators even use it. True, those with > fat fingers or buggy software may inadvertently send data down the wrong path, > create loops, or black-hole traffic. But if we were to suggest that it should > not be possible for control of paths to be applied from outside the network, > then we might find ourselves in trouble. > > Similarly, however, we also consider the application of choice from within the > network to be useful. Consider, for example, the loose hop in a traffic > engineered path. It is clear that a choice exists, but we don't specify how a > node that expands a loose hop works out what path to use: it's a policy choice > how the loose hop is expanded. > > Now, in the specific case, suppose I conceive three different load balancers. > They all do load balancing, but they do it differently. Let's assign them > different service function types so we can distinguish them. Now let's assume > that we really don't want to use one of them in our service function path, but > that we are happy to see any instance of a function of either of the other types > on the path. See what we can do with our proposal? > > But I suspect your concern is slightly more complex. I think you may be worried > about how additional information to inform a choice might be passed to an SFF. I > think that, just as in the traffic routing case, there are many ways to answer > the question. But the simplest case is choosing between an allowed set of SFIs > using the local policy for balancing SF load. > > Hope this helps, > Adrian > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: 13 November 2016 09:49 >> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; sfc@ietf.org >> Cc: bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] [bess] BGP/SFC encoding of things that will not work >> >> Fair enough. >> >> In this case, what I was refering to is the combination of two >> preorpties of the encoding of paths. >> On teh one hand, it is extraordinarily flexible in being able to >> represent a broad range of delegated choices (as well as allowing the >> controller to advertise very specific things. >> At the same time, it has no explanations for which ways of using those >> tools will or will not work, are intended to work, or should not be used. >> One example is the quesiton i raised on the list is an SFP with two SFF >> each of which has two different SF types, A and B. That seems like a >> natural thing to do, given the coding. It is extremely unlikely to >> produce a desirable result in reality. >> >> There is significant value in a flexible represent. There is also >> significant danger if the users can not figure out what will and will >> not work. Or if they can not tell if the necessary external properties >> can be met. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/12/16 5:32 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>> Joel said... >>> >>>> One of my concerns with the proposed BGP encoding is that it can represent >>>> many things that will not work. This seems to make it fragile. >>> >>> Joel, if I may, can I call you out on that generalisation? >>> >>> I don't find anything in your statement that I can discuss or debate. > Perhaps you >> could help with an example of what thing you might encode that "will not > work". >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Adrian >>> >>> PS I have cross-posted this mail to SFC and BESS as requested by the AD >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BESS mailing list >>> BESS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Mon Nov 14 06:20:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0E21294BC; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:20:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.031 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mv1y0X7xO7Ap; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (r-mail2.rd.orange.com [217.108.152.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA69129443; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail2.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id AE90B5D88AB; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 15:20:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by r-mail2.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A548A5D8817; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 15:20:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.301.0; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 15:20:48 +0100 To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , "bess@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay@ietf.org" References: <147691219689.5713.10984703287619180065.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <78714ceb-2b1c-2798-bfcb-1b9484685dff@orange.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <8dd1f1d6-b88a-5ec3-5c90-e2033bf5e418@orange.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 15:20:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Comments on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:20:52 -0000 Hi Ali, 2016-11-11, Ali Sajassi (sajassi): >> Here are a two comments on the changes in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05: >> >>> 5.1.3 Constructing EVPN BGP Routes >>> >>> In EVPN, an MPLS label identifying forwarding table is distributed by >> >> "identifying forwarding table" was inserted above in -05 >> Is the use of a per access circuit MPLS label really precluded ? Why ? > > It was added for clarification. To address your concern of not precluding > ACs, I¹ll change the sentence as below: > > from: "In EVPN, an MPLS label identifying forwarding table is distributed > by" > to: "In EVPN, an MPLS label typically identifying forwarding table is > distributed by" This is better, although "for instance" would I think be more appropriate. >> [...] >>> 9 Support for Multicast >>> >>> The E-VPN Inclusive Multicast BGP route is used to discover the >>> multicast tunnels among the endpoints associated with a given EVI >>> (e.g., given VNI) for VLAN-based service and a given for >>> VLAN-aware bundle service. The Ethernet Tag field of this route is >>> set as described in section 5.1.3. >> >> It was agreed in June to strike this sentence, which does not seem to >> add any information. >> ( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/bess/current/msg01769.html ) > > John agreed to strike the last sentence and not the whole paragraph. Indeed John agreed. (I'm not sure why you mention striking the whole paragraph, I don't recall anyone asking that, and certainly not me) > And frankly I think it is OK to keep the last sentence and to remind the > reader that the Ethernet Tag field is set per section 5.1.3. We are not > duplicating text here. We are just providing a reference. Mentioning *only* this field as being set as described in section 5.1.3 can also be a possible source of confusion (are other fields set according to another section?). I would suggest one of the following: - strike the sentence - say something like "all fields in this route are set as described in section 5.1.3" Best, -Thomas From nobody Mon Nov 14 22:13:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E00F129A25 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 22:13:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 19:06:30 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Sami Boutros , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] Questions & comments on draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service-edge-gateway-02 Thread-Index: AQHSP51Il0fMGhhf9UGtO6PmI1KGSg== Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:06:30 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.9.160926 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.40.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <8DB0A07375A840439E96CB251A1D2E98@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Questions & comments on draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service-edge-gateway-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:06:34 -0000 Hi Jeffrey, On 11/14/16, 10:13 PM, "BESS on behalf of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" wrote: >Sami, > >Let me use this old thread to continue the discussion during/after your >presentation on Monday. > > The service node would advertise EVPN-VPWS per EVI Ethernet A-D > routes with the Ethernet Segment Identifier field set to 0 and the > Ethernet tag ID set to (0xFFFFFFFF wildcard), all those routes will > be associated with the EVPN-VPWS service edge RT that will be > imported by other service edge PEs, each route will have a unique RD > and will be associated with another RT corresponding to the L2, L3 or > Ethernet VPN overlay service that can be transported over the EVPN- > VPWS transport service. > >As we agreed after the session, the second RT above is only used to >indicate the type of services that a service node support but not for the >purpose of route import/export control. For that, we don't need to use >RTs. ECs are just fine. An afterthought is that, we can probably define >some bits in "EVPN Layer 2 attributes extended community" to signal the >types of services? One RT is used for the service edge GWs to discover themselves so that they can do DF election using HRW. The other RT is used among edge nodes and service edge nodes for setting up P2P service tunnels. > >When a service node advertises a per EVI Ethernet A-D rout in response to >the one received from an access node, it could target the route to that >particular access node. This could be done by including a VRF Route >Import EC (RFC 7153) in the route sent by the access node - the service >node will include that in its route and only the targeted access node >will import it. > >We did not get to cover the following two points: > >- during draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws LC, it was agreed to move the BW >section to this document. That=B9s fine. >- as the email below suggested, if the service is evpn or ipvpn, unless >per-AC QoS needs to be enforced at the service node (vs. at the access >node), instead of using VPWS between the access node and service node, >perhaps EVPN Hub and Spoke can be used all the way to the access node >(the service nodes will use IRB to provide IPVPN service)? That way, the >service nodes do not need to use logical interfaces to terminate the VPWS >and then connect into the EVPN/IPVPN. There are scenarios in which access node need to ONLY backhaul traffic (and not do any local switching!). In those scenarios, you will need to terminate the service tunnels at the service edge nodes regardless of IRB or not. Cheers, Ali > >Jeffrey > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sami Boutros [mailto:sboutros@vmware.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 1:32 AM >> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; bess@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Questions & comments on >>draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service- >> edge-gateway-02 >>=20 >... >> > >> >"4.2 Applicability to IP-VPN TBD" is empty, so I'll use EVPN for my >> understanding: the VPWS brings the customer connection (on the AN) to >>the >> EVPN on the gateway. There could be many VPWS from multiple ANs >> terminating into the same EVPN instance on the gateway. With that, I >> wonder if EVPN virtual hub and spoke could be used to implement the >>same? >> The ANs would be the spokes and the gateway would be the hub? Other EVPN >> PEs (not drawn in Figure 1) on the core side can be either spokes or >>hubs >> in the same EVPN instance? >> > >> >If the above makes sense, then could the same be extended to IP-VPN >> service? You just need an IRB interface for the EVPN instance on the >> gateway? >>=20 >> Sami: The current document doesn=B9t preclude the IRB option and >>terminating >> multiple EVPN VPWS to the same L2 overlay bridge that has an IRB >>interface >> attached to an IP-VPN service. The empty sections are there for >>describing >> use cases that we will plan to add to the document in the future. >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Sami >>=20 >> > >> >Thanks. >> >Jeffrey >> > >_______________________________________________ >BESS mailing list >BESS@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Tue Nov 15 16:57:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE5112941C for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:57:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WkoRu-dicdv1 for ; 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Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:57:02 +0000 Received: from DM5PR05MB3145.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.219.15]) by DM5PR05MB3145.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.219.15]) with mapi id 15.01.0734.001; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:57:03 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , Sami Boutros , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] Questions & comments on draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service-edge-gateway-02 Thread-Index: AQHSP51Il0fMGhhf9UGtO6PmI1KGSqDax4Lg Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:57:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM5PR05MB3146; 7:WfEFo+dqRfc3WlB5/+tIzE8VRX/UBjAwMujM9k9kELqd+ck96SYHzDVEQUxS0bTMyOkMT/1dnL9Z20nYrmYspHO30knZ+fJOJJT3H75Mw4zpe115swH184sOXEj5joP5aVE0AxxMdIOaaNHN3losWkgkaQ2Yi9JUATVzxl1+A7+lBtnKv28lBIt8JuOBaMVbYNeqmfVu7SSlH7RDLsevWI6xwQwTDUlnjDZ4EYIAD1MMaKbsmyXi3pkkRXxpC6TDHzin33OZdiLIv6UT4ar/RTJBB5v09rtUwV3DuVfFCjRJgVYXGieK0tp4EHn8JnQbjqh5qWjrM6vO87+eMKbFpV4lVgHDdA0BPs5gkUsG+ds= x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8d19fcff-75ac-4924-b6e6-08d40dbb7a95 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001);SRVR:DM5PR05MB3146; 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H:DM5PR05MB3145.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Nov 2016 00:57:03.1308 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR05MB3146 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Questions & comments on draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service-edge-gateway-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:57:07 -0000 Hi Ali, > One RT is used for the service edge GWs to discover themselves so that > they can do DF election using HRW. The other RT is used among edge nodes > and service edge nodes for setting up P2P service tunnels. It's still not clear why the other RT is needs to be included in that route= . It does not seem to be necessary for the edge nodes to import that route?= The edge nodes only need to be configured what RT needs to be used for wha= t service, and one edge node's route does not need to be imported by other = edge nodes - only the service nodes need to import it. > There are scenarios in which access node need to ONLY backhaul traffic > (and not do any local switching!). In those scenarios, you will need to > terminate the service tunnels at the service edge nodes regardless of IRB > or not. Understand. However, if the service is EVPN, even when you terminate the VP= WS with logical interfaces that are part of of the service EVI on the servi= ce node, that service node will do local switching between those logical in= terface; if we extend the EVPN to the edge node using virtual hub and spoke= , the traffic between the edge nodes will still go through the service node= s anyway due to the nature of hub and spoke, so no different from the VPWS = approach as far as local switching is concerned? Thanks. Jeffrey > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 9:07 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Sami Boutros; bess@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [bess] Questions & comments on draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws- > service-edge-gateway-02 >=20 >=20 > Hi Jeffrey, >=20 >=20 > On 11/14/16, 10:13 PM, "BESS on behalf of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" > wrote: >=20 > >Sami, > > > >Let me use this old thread to continue the discussion during/after your > >presentation on Monday. > > > > The service node would advertise EVPN-VPWS per EVI Ethernet A-D > > routes with the Ethernet Segment Identifier field set to 0 and the > > Ethernet tag ID set to (0xFFFFFFFF wildcard), all those routes will > > be associated with the EVPN-VPWS service edge RT that will be > > imported by other service edge PEs, each route will have a unique RD > > and will be associated with another RT corresponding to the L2, L3 or > > Ethernet VPN overlay service that can be transported over the EVPN- > > VPWS transport service. > > > >As we agreed after the session, the second RT above is only used to > >indicate the type of services that a service node support but not for th= e > >purpose of route import/export control. For that, we don't need to use > >RTs. ECs are just fine. An afterthought is that, we can probably define > >some bits in "EVPN Layer 2 attributes extended community" to signal the > >types of services? >=20 > One RT is used for the service edge GWs to discover themselves so that > they can do DF election using HRW. The other RT is used among edge nodes > and service edge nodes for setting up P2P service tunnels. >=20 > > > >When a service node advertises a per EVI Ethernet A-D rout in response t= o > >the one received from an access node, it could target the route to that > >particular access node. This could be done by including a VRF Route > >Import EC (RFC 7153) in the route sent by the access node - the service > >node will include that in its route and only the targeted access node > >will import it. > > > >We did not get to cover the following two points: > > > >- during draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws LC, it was agreed to move the BW > >section to this document. >=20 > That=B9s fine. >=20 > >- as the email below suggested, if the service is evpn or ipvpn, unless > >per-AC QoS needs to be enforced at the service node (vs. at the access > >node), instead of using VPWS between the access node and service node, > >perhaps EVPN Hub and Spoke can be used all the way to the access node > >(the service nodes will use IRB to provide IPVPN service)? That way, the > >service nodes do not need to use logical interfaces to terminate the VPW= S > >and then connect into the EVPN/IPVPN. >=20 > There are scenarios in which access node need to ONLY backhaul traffic > (and not do any local switching!). In those scenarios, you will need to > terminate the service tunnels at the service edge nodes regardless of IRB > or not. >=20 > Cheers, > Ali >=20 > > > >Jeffrey > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sami Boutros [mailto:sboutros@vmware.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 1:32 AM > >> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; bess@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: Questions & comments on > >>draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service- > >> edge-gateway-02 > >> > >... > >> > > >> >"4.2 Applicability to IP-VPN TBD" is empty, so I'll use EVPN for my > >> understanding: the VPWS brings the customer connection (on the AN) to > >>the > >> EVPN on the gateway. There could be many VPWS from multiple ANs > >> terminating into the same EVPN instance on the gateway. With that, I > >> wonder if EVPN virtual hub and spoke could be used to implement the > >>same? > >> The ANs would be the spokes and the gateway would be the hub? Other > EVPN > >> PEs (not drawn in Figure 1) on the core side can be either spokes or > >>hubs > >> in the same EVPN instance? > >> > > >> >If the above makes sense, then could the same be extended to IP-VPN > >> service? You just need an IRB interface for the EVPN instance on the > >> gateway? > >> > >> Sami: The current document doesn=B9t preclude the IRB option and > >>terminating > >> multiple EVPN VPWS to the same L2 overlay bridge that has an IRB > >>interface > >> attached to an IP-VPN service. The empty sections are there for > >>describing > >> use cases that we will plan to add to the document in the future. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Sami > >> > >> > > >> >Thanks. > >> >Jeffrey > >> > > >_______________________________________________ > >BESS mailing list > >BESS@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Tue Nov 15 17:38:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EDF1293D6 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:38:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.418 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.418 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass 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d="scan'208";a="171609440" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Nov 2016 02:29:00 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (xch-rtp-001.cisco.com [64.101.220.141]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uAG2T0FK032138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Nov 2016 02:29:00 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (64.101.220.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:28:59 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:28:59 -0500 From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Sami Boutros , "bess@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bess] Questions & comments on draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service-edge-gateway-02 Thread-Index: AQHSP51Il0fMGhhf9UGtO6PmI1KGSqDax4Lg///pVYA= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 02:28:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.9.160926 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.40.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-ID: <8AECB98BAA5EB44C8E38471E991D5AD4@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Questions & comments on draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service-edge-gateway-02 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 02:29:07 -0000 SGkgSmVmZmVyeSwNCg0KT24gMTEvMTUvMTYsIDQ6NTcgUE0sICJKZWZmcmV5IChaaGFvaHVpKSBa 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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T1xL10NKUG6n for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 05:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-f177.google.com (mail-qk0-f177.google.com [209.85.220.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18A511296E1 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 05:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-f177.google.com with SMTP id n204so261648592qke.2 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 05:01:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ylequrz/3Wk5eCKJcM6kj6NNCLY5FzJoQHRimyC1xX8=; b=HYUoo80cilkxq78BcOBF2nxlgUCo4aL4xsUiTZ6X9QOo9G5YiMvKEGEsX7tblHAelY PlHZH8b1rwcE4pAi/ZNltJ0HGzFWio1IzrwKf2IOfb9yGIV39vHzXM4usm+ObZ9EBe1x 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2016 05:00:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: dr.h.t@ieee.org Received: by 10.140.97.73 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Nov 2016 05:00:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <56E7D219.7000902@orange.com> <56FBD402.9040102@cisco.com> <56FBDD81.6080502@cysols.com> <11152_1459347064_56FBDE78_11152_10229_1_56FBDE77.6030605@orange.com> <56FBE17E.5090609@cisco.com> <570C9586.7030905@cysols.com> <93a5d459-3271-b7ad-fadc-156576c60b65@cysols.com> <37e5086d-ce25-6b14-56d9-b53d46f863e2@cisco.com> From: Hiroshi Tsunoda Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 22:00:10 +0900 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _G5GXYpq6jzCXIoFj94vS1cB29M Message-ID: To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Glenn Mansfield Keeni Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 08:10:16 -0800 Cc: Mach Chen , "mib-doctors@ietf.org" , "ops-ads@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib.all@ietf.org" , Benoit Claise , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" , Martin Vigoureux , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] MIBDoc review of draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib-04.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 13:05:18 -0000 Hi, I discussed with Jeffrey on the MIB documents during IETF97 and I have volunteered to finalize those. I will work on draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib and prepare updated version (-05) as a response to MIB doctor's review. This will happen before the end of the month. I will take some time to get familiar with related documents, Sincerely yours, -- Hiroshi TSUNODA, Tohoku Institute of Technology, Sendai, Japan E-mail: tsuno@m.ieice.org E-mail: tsuno@tohtech.ac.jp 2016-10-04 3:42 GMT+09:00 Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang : > Gelnn, Benoit, > > Sorry for the late action and response after the initial round of review and revision - I have been side tracked by many other things. > > I will try to get this done within next two weeks. > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2016 12:42 PM >> To: Glenn Mansfield Keeni; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; EXT - >> thomas.morin@orange.com >> Cc: mib-doctors@ietf.org; ops-ads@ietf.org; Mach Chen; Martin Vigoureux; >> bess@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [bess] MIBDoc review of draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib- >> 04.txt >> >> Authors, >> >> Can you please finalize this draft. >> Glenn provided the first MIB doctor review in April! >> >> Regards, Benoit >> > Hi, >> > Any update on the MIB drafts? >> > Glenn >> > >> > On 2016/07/17 23:44, Glenn Mansfield Keeni wrote: >> >> Jeffrey and team, >> >> Any progress on the MIB matters >> >> (draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib-05.txt, >> >> draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-mib-03.txt )? >> >> >> >> Glenn >> >> On 2016/06/07 18:39, Glenn Mansfield Keeni wrote: >> >>> Hi Jeffrey, >> >>> Thanks for the good work on draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib >> >>> document. It took me some time to do this review. But now here it >> >>> is. A (near complete) review of >> >>> draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib-04.txt is attached. Hope this helps. >> >>> I understand that the Security Considerations section is TBD. >> >>> >> >>> Glenn >> >>> >> >>> On 2016/05/19 4:48, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: >> >>>> Hi Glenn, >> >>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: Glenn Mansfield Keeni [mailto:glenn@cysols.com] >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 11:02 AM >> >>>>> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Benoit Claise >> >>>>> ; EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Cc: Mach Chen ; ops-ads@ietf.org; Martin >> >>>>> Vigoureux >> >>>>> ; bess@ietf.org; mib-doctors@ietf.org >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [bess] MIBDoc review of >> >>>>> draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib- >> >>>>> 02.txt >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Jeffrey, >> >>>>> > Thanks for your comments. I've addressed most of your comments >> >>>>> > in the new revision: >> >>>>> Thanks for your cooperation. I will need at least one more revision >> >>>>> with the following comments/recommendations addressed before I will >> >>>>> be able to complete the detailed review. In the following the >> numbers >> >>>>> refer to the issue numbers in the initial review. The issues that >> are >> >>>>> addressed and closed are not listed. For brevity, the issue >> >>>>> descriptions have been trimmed. In case of doubts please look at the >> >>>>> response mail appended below. >> >>>>> Hope this helps. >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks for your detailed comments/suggestions. I posted a new >> revision >> >>>> with the following issues addressed. >> >>>> >> >>>> URL: >> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast- >> mib-04.txt >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Status: >> >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib/ >> >>>> Htmlized: >> >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib-04 >> >>>> Diff: >> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib- >> 04 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Please see some notes below. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Glenn >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Comments: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 1.1 >> >>>>> > I had thought this would be standard/obvious for all MIB >> >>>>> objects - >> >>>>> We will comeback to this time and again, whereever possible make >> >>>>> matters explicit and clear. That will help. >> >>>>> > Is it enough to say something similar? For example: >> >>>>> > In particular, it describes common managed objects used >> >>>>> > to configure and/or monitor both L2 and L3 VPN Multicast. >> >>>>> That is better. >> >>>> >> >>>> I take it that this is already closed in -03 revision. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 2.2 >> >>>>> > Having said that, I'll explain PMSI a bit further. >> >>>>> PMSI explanation is good. >> >>>>> Please use the same style/format for I-PMSI and S-PMSI. >> >>>> >> >>>> I think -03 revision already use the same style/format for I-PMSI and >> >>>> S-PMSI? >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 2.3 >> >>>>> > No difference. I was using "Layer 3" or "L3" but it was >> >>>>> pointed out >> >>>>> > that the layer 3 VPN is often referred to IP VPN in other RFCs >> >>>>> and I >> >>>>> > was advised to change it accordingly. Looks like I did not change >> >>>>> all >> >>>>> > the cases. >> >>>>> > On the other hand, I noticed that RFC 4382 does use "Layer 3 >> >>>>> VPN" so >> >>>>> > I'll change it back. >> >>>>> No problems. just make sure that the same expression/notation is >> used >> >>>>> uniformly. >> >>>> >> >>>> I take it that this is also addressed in -03 already. >> >>>> >> >>>>> 3. >> >>>>> > > > 3. Summary of MIB Module. >> >>>>> > > > An overview of the L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB will be good- the >> >>>>> > > > structure of the MIB, short descriptions of the table(s) >> >>>>> > > > including usage of the table(s) for management and/or by >> >>>>> > > > other MIB(s). >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > I had that, but have added one sentence about the only table. >> >>>>> A sentence or two about the textual convention will be good. >> >>>> >> >>>> Added in -04. >> >>>> >> >>>>> > > > 4. MIB syntax checking: >> >>>>> > > > smilint -s -e -l 5 mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB >> >>>>> 2>L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB.txt >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > I used simpleweb's validation tool but looks like I did not >> >>>>> use the >> >>>>> > strictest level of validation. I've now fixed the following >> issues >> >>>>> and >> >>>>> > verified. >> >>>>> Good. >> >>>>> 5. >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > > > 5. REFERENCE clauses: Please use REFERENCE clauses liberally. >> >>>>> > > > Wherever possible, provide references for objects used in >> >>>>> > > > the MIB. The references will point to specific sections/ >> >>>>> > > > sub-sections of the RFCs defining the protocol for >> >>>>> which the >> >>>>> > > > MIB is being designed. It will greatly improve the >> >>>>> readability >> >>>>> > > > of the document. >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > Added. >> >>>>> I would recommend using the REFERENCE clause as in rfs4382 and >> >>>>> improve on it. >> >>>>> Specifically, instead of keeping the reference in the DESCRIPTION >> >>>>> clause move it to a separate REFERENCE clause. The addition of the >> >>>>> section number is an improvement. It is friendlier to the reader. >> >>>>> Note. Same comment for other OBJECTs too. >> >>>> >> >>>> Oh I missed that. All fixed. >> >>>> >> >>>>> 7.1 >> >>>>> > > > 7.1 CONTACT-INFO >> >>>>> > > > Following the conventions (including indentation style) >> >>>>> will >> >>>>> > > > improve the readability. (e.g. RFC4382, RFC5132). >> >>>>> > > > Will be good if it does not overflow into the next page. >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > Fixed. >> >>>>> The format is OK. The Postal address etc., need not have been >> >>>>> deleted. Please put the complete contact information as in the >> >>>>> Author's Address. (RFC 2578 section 5.7 gives a usage example). >> >>>> >> >>>> Fixed. >> >>>> >> >>>>> 7.3 >> >>>>> > I kept "experimental 99" so that I could continue to use mib >> >>>>> tools >> >>>>> > to validate; but I added notes for the editor to replace them >> >>>>> as you >> >>>>> > indicated. >> >>>>> Use of "experimental 99" is not recommended. >> >>>> >> >>>> Do you mean 99 is not a good number? What about 9999? As I explained, >> >>>> I kept it so that we can use mib tools to validate, and I've added >> >>>> detailed notes for the editor. >> >>>> >> >>>>> 8 >> >>>>> > > > 8. Specific MO and TC related comments. >> >>>>> > Are spaces allowed? I don't know so I used hyphen. For now I >> >>>>> replace >> >>>>> > with things like rsvpP2mp. >> >>>>> Yes. Camelcase is an allowed practice. SMI does not mind it. >> >>>> >> >>>> Ok this is closed already then. >> >>>> >> >>>>> 8.2 >> >>>>> > > > 8.2 l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelAttributeFlags OBJECT-TYPE >> >>>>> > The intent is to simply return the octet value of the flags >> >>>>> > field, w/o listing individual bits like "Leaf Information >> >>>>> Required". >> >>>>> > More bits could be defined in the future but the MIB would not >> >>>>> change. >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > Is that OK? >> >>>>> As far as possible, the meaning of the objects must be made clear. >> >>>>> That will help implementors and operators- users of the MIB. >> >>>> >> >>>> I added the definition for one existing bit and reference to the IANA >> >>>> registry being created for this flag field. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 8.3 >> >>>>> > > > 8.3 l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelAttributeId OBJECT-TYPE >> >>>>> > Depending on the tunnel type, there could be different sizes. >> >>>>> > Future tunnel types could have other sizes that not specified >> >>>>> > today. I was thinking to just give a size >> >>>>> > tPmsiTunnelAttributeId OBJECT-TYPE range so that it is flexible. >> >>>>> > Is that ok? >> >>>>> I see that you have changed the size upper limit to 50. >> >>>>> If the size varies continuously from 0 to 50 the above description >> >>>>> is correct. >> >>>>> Please confirm, explain and cite appropriate reference. If the size >> >>>>> may change in the future that must be stated too. >> >>>> >> >>>> I changed to discrete sizes for currently defined tunnel types. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 8.4 >> >>>>> > > > 8.4 l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelIf OBJECT-TYPE >> >>>>> > > > SYNTAX RowPointer >> >>>>> > > > MAX-ACCESS read-only >> >>>>> > > > STATUS current >> >>>>> > > > DESCRIPTION >> >>>>> > > > "If the tunnel has a corresponding interface, >> >>>>> > > > this is the row pointer to the ifName table." >> >>>>> > > > o DESCRIPTION looks incorrect. Please fix it. Do you >> >>>>> > > > want to say this object points to the corresponding >> >>>>> > > > row in the ifTable? >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > Yes. Fixed. >> >>>>> Not quite. >> >>>>> What is ifName table ? ifName is a columnar object in the >> >>>>> ifXTable. >> >>>>> Is l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelIf a pointer to the corresponding row >> in >> >>>>> the >> >>>>> ifXTable table ? Please fix accordingly. >> >>>> >> >>>> You're right. Fixed. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 9. >> >>>>> > > > 9. The Security Considerations section does not follow >> >>>>> > > > the Security Guidelines for IETF MIB Modules >> >>>>> > > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/mib-security. >> >>>>> > > > Please fix. >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > I was really hoping that it would not have to be that >> >>>>> > tedious. SNMP/MIB secur >> >>>>> ity should be no different from the >> >>>>> > CLI security - once you secure the infrastructure >> >>>>> > then what's more to do? >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > I'll need more time to work on this. Let me try to address >> >>>>> > the issues in the other mib first and come back to this. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Please take your time. Looking at examples will help. And let me >> >>>>> know where I can help. >> >>>> >> >>>> I will need to work on that later. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 10.1 >> >>>>> > > > 10.1 Checking nits according to >> >>>>> > > > http://www.ietf.org/id-info/checklist : >> >>>>> > Should I break them into different lines or just keep them >> >>>>> > as is? Any example of expected indentation if I break the >> >>>>> > lines? >> >>>>> No problems at all to break lines. >> >>>>> l2L3VpnMcastGroups OBJECT IDENTIFIER >> >>>>> ::= {l2L3VpnMcastConformance 1} >> >>>>> Should do. >> >>>> >> >>>> Done. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 10.2 >> >>>>> > > > 10.2 Checking references for intended status: Proposed >> >>>>> Standard >> >>>>> > > > == Missing Reference: 'RFC 7117' is mentioned on line >> >>>>> 76, >> >>>>> > > > but not defined >> >>>>> > > > 'described in [RFC6513, RFC6514, RFC 7117] and other >> >>>>> > I hope I understood and fixed it (removing the space in "RFC >> >>>>> 7117"). >> >>>>> I would recommend that you put it as [RFC6513], [RFC6514], [RFC7117] >> >>>>> That is simpler to parse. >> >>>> >> >>>> I see some other documents do not have comma between multiple >> >>>> references so I followed that. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > > > 11. There is another WIP MVPN-MIB in >> >>>>> > > > draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-mib-02.txt >> >>>>> > > > MVPN-MIB has objects that refer to L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB. >> >>>>> > > > Is there a good reason for not merging the 2 documents? >> >>>>> > > > I have not seen any discussion or explanation on this. >> >>>>> > > > I may have missed it. >> >>>>> > > > Please clarify or, give some pointers. >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > As mentioned in the introduction: >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > this memo describes managed objects common to both VPLS >> >>>>> > Multicast [RFC7117] and MVPN [RFC6513, RFC6514]. >> >>>>> > MVPN-MIB is for MVPN. There was another VPLS Multicast MIB >> >>>>> > in the work and both would reference common >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > objects defined in this MIB. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> OK. So you are saying that this MIB contains core objects that >> >>>>> will be used to manage implementations of various multicast VPN >> >>>>> protocols e.g. [RFC7117], [RFC6513],[RFC6514] ? It will help if >> >>>>> you spell it out at the beginning. >> >>>> >> >>>> Yes. I thought I did it already: >> >>>> >> >>>> 1. Introduction >> >>>> >> >>>> ... and this memo describes managed objects common to both VPLS >> >>>> Multicast [RFC7117] and MVPN [RFC6513, RFC6514]. >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks! >> >>>> Jeffrey >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 2016/04/16 21:47, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: >> >>>>>> Glenn, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thanks for your comments. I've addressed most of your comments in >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>> new revision: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bess- >> >>>>> l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib-03.txt >> >>>>>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-l2l3- >> >>>>> vpn-mcast-mib/ >> >>>>>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn- >> >>>>> mcast-mib-03 >> >>>>>> Diff: >> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-l2l3- >> >>>>> vpn-mcast-mib-03 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Please see below. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 1. Abstract: >> >>>>>>> 1.1 A sentence on how the managed objects will be used by >> >>>>>>> applications for operations, monitoring and management >> >>>>>>> would be good. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I had thought this would be standard/obvious for all MIB objects >> >>>>>> - the >> >>>>> read-write ones are used to control how a device works, and the >> >>>>> read-only >> >>>>> ones are used for monitoring. Do I really need to say it explicitly? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I see RFC 4382 has the following: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base >> >>>>>> (MIB) >> >>>>>> for use with network management protocols in the Internet >> >>>>>> community. >> >>>>>> In particular, it describes managed objects to configure and/or >> >>>>>> monitor Multiprotocol Label Switching Layer-3 Virtual Private >> >>>>>> Networks on a Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) Label >> >>>>>> Switching >> >>>>>> Router (LSR) supporting this feature. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Is it enough to say something similar? For example: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> In particular, it describes common managed objects used to >> >>>>> configure >> >>>>>> and/or monitor both L2 and L3 VPN Multicast. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 2. Introduction >> >>>>>>> 2.1 Please give the full expansion of the abbreviations >> >>>>>>> appearing for the first time. (PE, VPLS,..) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Fixed. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 2.2 The terminology section is a bit terse. Explaining the >> >>>>>>> terms that are used, nicely with reference to the protocol >> >>>>>>> documents will improve readability. >> >>>>>>> e.g. >> >>>>>>> - PMSI, I-PMSI, S-PMSI, provider tunnels >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As the paragraph alluded to, this MIB needs to be understood in the >> >>>>> general context of L2/L3 multicast VPN and providing good >> >>>>> explanation of >> >>>>> the terms is not attempted. The references for the terms are the the >> >>>>> RFCs >> >>>>> for the relevant technologies. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Having said that, I'll explain PMSI a bit further. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 2.3 Is there a difference between >> >>>>>>> "multicast in Layer 2 and Layer 3 VPNs , defined by >> >>>>>>> RFC 7117 and RFC 6513/6514" >> >>>>>>> used in the DESCRIPTION in the MODULE-IDENTITY >> >>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>> "multicast in BGP/MPLS L2 or IP VPN" >> >>>>>>> used in the DESCRIPTION of L2L3VpnMcastProviderTunnelType ? >> >>>>>>> If these are the same, it will be helpful to stick to the >> >>>>>>> same expression. If these are not the same, the dictinction >> >>>>>>> should be clarified. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> No difference. I was using "Layer 3" or "L3" but it was pointed out >> >>>>>> that >> >>>>> the layer 3 VPN is often referred to IP VPN in other RFCs and I was >> >>>>> advised to change it accordingly. Looks like I did not change all >> the >> >>>>> cases. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On the other hand, I noticed that RFC 4382 does use "Layer 3 VPN" >> so >> >>>>> I'll change it back. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 3. Summary of MIB Module. >> >>>>>>> An overview of the L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB will be good- the >> >>>>>>> structure of the MIB, short descriptions of the table(s) >> >>>>>>> including usage of the table(s) for management and/or by >> >>>>>>> other MIB(s). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I had that, but have added one sentence about the only table. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> MIB definitions: >> >>>>>>> 4. MIB syntax checking: >> >>>>>>> smilint -s -e -l 5 mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB >> >>>>>>> 2>L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB.txt >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I used simpleweb's validation tool but looks like I did not use the >> >>>>> strictest level of validation. I've now fixed the following issues >> >>>>> and >> >>>>> verified. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:63: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: >> named >> >>>>> number `rsvp-p2mp' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:64: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: >> named >> >>>>> number `ldp-p2mp' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:65: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: >> named >> >>>>> number `pim-asm' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:66: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: >> named >> >>>>> number `pim-ssm' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:67: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: >> named >> >>>>> number `pim-bidir' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:68: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: >> named >> >>>>> number `ingress-replication' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:69: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: >> named >> >>>>> number `ldp-mp2mp' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> See later question/comments below. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:215: [5] {group-unref} warning: current >> >>>>> group `l2L3VpnMcastOptionalGroup' is not referenced in this module >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:4: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `NOTIFICATION-TYPE' imported from module `SNMPv2-SMI' is never used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:5: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `Unsigned32' imported from module `SNMPv2-SMI' is never used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:8: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `NOTIFICATION-GROUP' imported from module `SNMPv2-CONF' is never >> used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:11: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `TruthValue' imported from module `SNMPv2-TC' is never used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:11: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `RowStatus' imported from module `SNMPv2-TC' is never used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:12: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `TimeStamp' imported from module `SNMPv2-TC' is never used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:12: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `TimeInterval' imported from module `SNMPv2-TC' is never used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:15: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `SnmpAdminString' imported from module `SNMP-FRAMEWORK-MIB' is never >> >>>>> used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:18: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `InetAddress' imported from module `INET-ADDRESS-MIB' is never used >> >>>>>>> mibs/L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB:18: [5] {import-unused} warning: >> >>>>>>> identifier >> >>>>> `InetAddressType' imported from module `INET-ADDRESS-MIB' is never >> >>>>> used >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Removed the above unused imports. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 5. REFERENCE clauses: Please use REFERENCE clauses liberally. >> >>>>>>> Wherever possible, provide references for objects used in >> >>>>>>> the MIB. The references will point to specific sections/ >> >>>>>>> sub-sections of the RFCs defining the protocol for which the >> >>>>>>> MIB is being designed. It will greatly improve the readability >> >>>>>>> of the document. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Added. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 6. IMPORTS clause >> >>>>>>> MIB modules from which items are imported must be cited and >> >>>>>>> included in the normative references. >> >>>>>>> The conventional style is >> >>>>>>> mplsStdMIB >> >>>>>>> FROM MPLS-TC-STD-MIB -- [RFC3811] >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Added. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 7. Please update the MODULE-IDENTITY. (There are no syntantic >> >>>>>>> errors.) >> >>>>>>> 7.1 CONTACT-INFO >> >>>>>>> Following the conventions (including indentation style) will >> >>>>>>> improve the readability. (e.g. RFC4382, RFC5132). >> >>>>>>> Will be good if it does not overflow into the next page. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Fixed. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 7.2 REVISION clause: follow the convention recommended in RFC4181 >> >>>>>>> sec 4.5 >> >>>>>>> REVISION "200212132358Z" -- December 13, 2002 >> >>>>>>> DESCRIPTION "Initial version, published as RFC yyyy." >> >>>>>>> -- RFC Ed.: replace yyyy with actual RFC number & remove this >> >>>>>>> note: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Fixed. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 7.3 OID assignment: follow the convention recommended in RFC4181 >> >>>>>>> sec 4.5 i >> >>>>>>> replace >> >>>>>>> ::= { experimental 99 } -- number to be assigned >> >>>>>>> by >> >>>>>>> ::= { XXX } >> >>>>>>> -- RFC Ed.: replace XXX with IANA-assigned number & remove this >> >>>>>>> note >> >>>>>>> will be the subtree under which the module will be >> >>>>>>> registered. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I kept "experimental 99" so that I could continue to use mib >> >>>>>> tools to >> >>>>> validate; but I added notes for the editor to replace them as you >> >>>>> indicated. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 8. Specific MO and TC related comments. >> >>>>>>> L2L3VpnMcastProviderTunnelType ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION >> >>>>>>> STATUS current >> >>>>>>> DESCRIPTION >> >>>>>>> "Types of provider tunnels used for multicast in >> >>>>>>> BGP/MPLS L2 or IP VPN." >> >>>>>>> SYNTAX INTEGER { unconfigured (0), >> >>>>>>> rsvp-p2mp (1), >> >>>>>>> ldp-p2mp (2), >> >>>>>>> pim-asm (3), >> >>>>>>> pim-ssm (4), >> >>>>>>> pim-bidir (5), >> >>>>>>> ingress-replication (6), >> >>>>>>> ldp-mp2mp (7) >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> o Would be nice to align the enumeration labels with the >> >>>>>>> labels in the protocol document RFC 6514 unless there is >> >>>>>>> a good reason for not doing so. (You will have to take >> >>>>>>> care of the smi compilation errors too; '-' is not allowed ). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Are spaces allowed? I don't know so I used hyphen. For now I >> replace >> >>>>> with things like rsvpP2mp. >> >>>>>> Or could/should I just remove the definitions, so that if a new >> >>>>>> type is >> >>>>> defined in the future there is no need to update the MIB? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 8.1 l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelAttributeEntry OBJECT-TYPE >> >>>>>>> SYNTAX L2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelAttributeEntry >> >>>>>>> MAX-ACCESS not-accessible >> >>>>>>> STATUS current >> >>>>>>> DESCRIPTION >> >>>>>>> "An entry in this table corresponds to an PMSI >> >>>>>>> attribute >> >>>>>>> that is advertised/received on this router. >> >>>>>>> For BGP-based signaling (for I-PMSI via >> >>>>>>> auto-discovery >> >>>>>>> procedure, or for S-PMSI via S-PMSI A-D routes), >> >>>>>>> they are just as signaled by BGP (RFC 6514 section 5, >> >>>>>>> 'PMSI Tunnel attribute'). >> >>>>>>> For UDP-based S-PMSI signaling for PIM-MVPN, >> >>>>>>> they're derived from S-PMSI Join Message >> >>>>>>> (RFC 6513 section 7.4.2, 'UDP-based Protocol').. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Note that BGP-based signaling may be used for >> >>>>>>> PIM-MVPN as well." >> >>>>>>> o Fix the ".." in "'UDP-based Protocol').." above. >> >>>>>>> o Please give the reference for this Table. >> >>>>>>> Is it- "PMSI Tunnel attribute" in RFC 6513 Sec.4 ? >> >>>>>>> "PMSI Tunnel attribute" in RFC 6514 Sec.5 ? >> >>>>>>> both? >> >>>>>>> Any other pointers? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Fixed. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 8.2 l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelAttributeFlags OBJECT-TYPE >> >>>>>>> SYNTAX OCTET STRING (SIZE (1)) >> >>>>>>> MAX-ACCESS not-accessible >> >>>>>>> STATUS current >> >>>>>>> DESCRIPTION >> >>>>>>> "For UDP-based S-PMSI signaling for PIM-MVPN, this >> >>>>>>> is 0. >> >>>>>>> For BGP-based I/S-PMSI signaling, this is the Flags >> >>>>>>> field in PMSI Tunnel Attribute of the corresponding >> >>>>>>> I/S-PMSI A-D route." >> >>>>>>> ::= { l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelAttributeEntry 1 } >> >>>>>>> o Please confirm that the above is a complete enumeration >> >>>>>>> of the >> >>>>>>> types of signalling. >> >>>>>>> o RFC 6514 Sec.5 says that the Flags field indicates >> >>>>>>> "Leaf Information Required". That is useful information. >> >>>>>>> Please include in the description. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The intent is to simply return the octet value of the flags >> >>>>>> field, w/o >> >>>>> listing individual bits like "Leaf Information Required". More bits >> >>>>> could >> >>>>> be defined in the future but the MIB would not change. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Is that OK? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 8.3 l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelAttributeId OBJECT-TYPE >> >>>>>>> SYNTAX OCTET STRING ( SIZE (0..37) ) >> >>>>>>> MAX-ACCESS not-accessible >> >>>>>>> STATUS current >> >>>>>>> DESCRIPTION >> >>>>>>> "For UDP-based S-PMSI signaling for PIM-MVPN, the >> >>>>>>> first >> >>>>>>> four or sixteen octets of this attribute are filled >> >>>>>>> with >> >>>>>>> the provider tunnel group address (IPv4 or IPv6).. >> >>>>>>> For BGP-based I/S-PMSI signaling, this is the Tunnel >> >>>>> Identifier >> >>>>>>> Field in PMSI Tunnel Attribute of the corresponding >> >>>>>>> I/S- >> >>>>> PMSI >> >>>>>>> A-D route." >> >>>>>>> o Check the size specifications. The specs above say it can be >> >>>>>>> all sizes 0..37. That is not clear from the DESCRIPTION >> >>>>>>> clause. >> >>>>>>> o Fix the ".." in "(IPv4 or IPv6).." above. >> >>>>>>> o RFC 6514 Sec 5. PMSI Tunnel Attribute gives the Tunnel >> >>>>> Identifiers >> >>>>>>> for mLDP, PIM-SM, PIM-SSM, BIDIR-PIM,Ingress >> >>>>>>> Replication,MP2MP. >> >>>>>>> It appears that the sizes (range) for each case will be >> >>>>>>> different. >> >>>>>>> Please clarify that, and if there are discrete sizes, >> specify >> >>>>>>> accordingly. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Depending on the tunnel type, there could be different sizes. >> Future >> >>>>> tunnel types could have other sizes that not specified today. I was >> >>>>> thinking to just give a size range so that it is flexible. Is that >> >>>>> ok? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 8.3 l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelPointer OBJECT-TYPE >> >>>>>>> SYNTAX RowPointer >> >>>>>>> MAX-ACCESS read-only >> >>>>>>> STATUS current >> >>>>>>> DESCRIPTION >> >>>>>>> "If the tunnel exists in some MIB table, this is the >> >>>>>>> row pointer to it." >> >>>>>>> o "some MIB table" : specify which MIB table. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I can give an example, like mplsTunnelTable [RFC 3812]. It could be >> >>>>> whatever table that a tunnel may be put into. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> o In what case will the tunnel exist and in what case will it >> >>>>>>> not? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> If a device supports mplsTunnelTable and the tunnel is represented >> >>>>>> there, >> >>>>> then it exists. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> o What will be the behaviour if the above condition is not >> >>>>> satisfied? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> A null pointer should be given. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 8.4 l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelIf OBJECT-TYPE >> >>>>>>> SYNTAX RowPointer >> >>>>>>> MAX-ACCESS read-only >> >>>>>>> STATUS current >> >>>>>>> DESCRIPTION >> >>>>>>> "If the tunnel has a corresponding interface, this >> >>>>>>> is the >> >>>>>>> row pointer to the ifName table." >> >>>>>>> o DESCRIPTION looks incorrect. Please fix it. Do you want >> >>>>>>> to say >> >>>>>>> this object points to the corresponding row in the ifTable? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Yes. Fixed. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> o In what case does the TunnelIf exist and in what case >> >>>>>>> will it >> >>>>> not? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Some tunnels may not have a corresponding interface. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> o What will be expected if the tunnel does not have a >> >>>>> corresponding >> >>>>>>> interface? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Null row pointer. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 9. The Security Considerations section does not follow the >> Security >> >>>>>>> Guidelines for IETF MIB Modules >> >>>>>>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/mib-security. >> >>>>>>> Please fix. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I was really hoping that it would not have to be that tedious. >> >>>>>> SNMP/MIB >> >>>>> security should be no different from the CLI security - once you >> >>>>> secure >> >>>>> the infrastructure then what's more to do? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I'll need more time to work on this. Let me try to address the >> >>>>>> issues in >> >>>>> the other mib first and come back to this. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 10.ID-nits >> >>>>>>> 10.1 Checking nits according to >> >>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/id-info/checklist : >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>>>> --------- >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ** There are 4 instances of too long lines in the document, >> >>>>>>> the >> >>>>> longest one >> >>>>>>> being 3 characters in excess of 72. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I fixed some but there still three too long lines: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> l2L3VpnMcastPmsiTunnelAttributeType >> >>>>>> L2L3VpnMcastProviderTunnelType, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> l2L3VpnMcastGroups OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= >> >>>>>> {l2L3VpnMcastConformance >> >>>>> 1} >> >>>>>> l2L3VpnMcastCompliances OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= >> >>>>>> {l2L3VpnMcastConformance >> >>>>> 2} >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Should I break them into different lines or just keep them as is? >> >>>>>> Any >> >>>>> example of expected indentation if I break the lines? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 10.2 Checking references for intended status: Proposed Standard >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>>>> --------- >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> == Missing Reference: 'RFC 7117' is mentioned on line 76, but >> >>>>>>> not >> >>>>>>> defined >> >>>>>>> 'described in [RFC6513, RFC6514, RFC 7117] and other >> >>>>>>> documents >> >>>>> tha...' >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I hope I understood and fixed it (removing the space in "RFC 7117"). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 11. There is another WIP MVPN-MIB in >> >>>>>>> draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-mib-02.txt >> >>>>>>> MVPN-MIB has objects that refer to L2L3-VPN-MCAST-MIB. >> >>>>>>> Is there a good reason for not merging the 2 documents? I >> have >> >>>>>>> not >> >>>>> seen >> >>>>>>> any discussion or explanation on this. I may have missed it. >> >>>>> Please >> >>>>>>> clarify or, give some pointers. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As mentioned in the introduction: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> this memo describes managed objects common to both VPLS >> >>>>>> Multicast [RFC7117] and MVPN [RFC6513, RFC6514]. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> MVPN-MIB is for MVPN. There was another VPLS Multicast MIB in the >> >>>>>> work >> >>>>> and both would reference common objects defined in this MIB. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thanks! >> >>>>>> Jeffrey >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>>> From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Glenn >> >>>>>>> Mansfield >> >>>>>>> Keeni >> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 2:28 AM >> >>>>>>> To: Benoit Claise ; EXT - >> >>>>>>> thomas.morin@orange.com >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Cc: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; ops-ads@ietf.org; >> >>>>> Martin >> >>>>>>> Vigoureux ; bess@ietf.org; Mach Chen >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Subject: [bess] MIBDoc review of >> >>>>>>> draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib- >> >>>>> 02.txt >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Hi, >> >>>>>>> I have been asked to do a MIB Doctors review of >> >>>>>>> draft-ietf-bess-l2l3-vpn-mcast-mib-02.txt. >> >>>>>>> My knowledge of L2L3VPN Multicast is limited to the reading >> >>>>>>> of this document and browsing through the documents referred >> >>>>>>> to in the draft and bess-wg mailing list archives.( read >> >>>>>>> "shallow"). >> >>>>>>> So some of the doubts and questions may sound trivial or >> >>>>>>> strange. Please bear with me and help me help you make >> >>>>>>> this into a better document :-) >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The comments are attached. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Glenn >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> BESS mailing list >> >>>>>> BESS@ietf.org >> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> MIB-DOCTORS mailing list >> >>> MIB-DOCTORS@ietf.org >> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib-doctors >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> MIB-DOCTORS mailing list >> >> MIB-DOCTORS@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib-doctors >> > >> > . >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BESS mailing list > BESS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess From nobody Sun Nov 20 22:48:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietf.org Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0AD1295B5; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 22:48:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.38.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <147971088830.17958.8558443863894060525.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 22:48:08 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-06.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 06:48:08 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS of the IETF. Title : A Network Virtualization Overlay Solution using EVPN Authors : Ali Sajassi John Drake Nabil Bitar R. Shekhar James Uttaro Wim Henderickx Filename : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-06.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2016-11-20 Abstract: This document describes how Ethernet VPN (EVPN) [RFC7432] can be used as an Network Virtualization Overlay (NVO) solution and explores the various tunnel encapsulation options over IP and their impact on the EVPN control-plane and procedures. In particular, the following encapsulation options are analyzed: VXLAN, NVGRE, and MPLS over GRE. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Nov 20 22:52:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94AC11293D8; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 22:52:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.018 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JcYjF-zRdSSk; Sun, 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Sajassi (sajassi)" To: Thomas Morin , "bess@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHSO2bdWq6n+rBu+kyWYKDPeHJznaDT07aAgAUN3oCACf0KgA== Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 06:52:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <147691219689.5713.10984703287619180065.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <78714ceb-2b1c-2798-bfcb-1b9484685dff@orange.com> <8dd1f1d6-b88a-5ec3-5c90-e2033bf5e418@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <8dd1f1d6-b88a-5ec3-5c90-e2033bf5e418@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.9.160926 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.76.54] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-ID: <80F81D7725EBF445B9A64961780FCD7E@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Comments on 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a3MsDQoNCg0KU2FtaQ0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg== --------------2D53B6F4B05792FED72FD0D1-- From nobody Thu Nov 24 05:03:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481AD129967; Thu, 24 Nov 2016 05:03:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.031 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EMdZxnlvGajL; Thu, 24 Nov 2016 05:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail1.rd.orange.com (r-mail1.rd.orange.com [217.108.152.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02788129962; Thu, 24 Nov 2016 05:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from r-mail1.rd.orange.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F98CA440A8; Thu, 24 Nov 2016 14:03:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.194.32.11]) by r-mail1.rd.orange.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E7EA440A0; Thu, 24 Nov 2016 14:03:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.193.71.12] (10.193.71.12) by FTRDCH01.rd.francetelecom.fr (10.194.32.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 24 Nov 2016 14:03:25 +0100 To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , "bess@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay@ietf.org" References: <147691219689.5713.10984703287619180065.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <78714ceb-2b1c-2798-bfcb-1b9484685dff@orange.com> <8dd1f1d6-b88a-5ec3-5c90-e2033bf5e418@orange.com> From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange Message-ID: <96598b75-9bd9-0210-782f-eb0c0a3f8c95@orange.com> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 14:03:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bess] Comments on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 13:03:46 -0000 Hi Ali, 2016-11-21, Ali Sajassi (sajassi): > I incorporated the two comments below and just published a new rev. I am > looking forward to the assignment of the doc. Shepard and his/her comments > so that we can wrap this up. Looks good to me. As far as I know, WG LC comments have been addressed. Thanks, -Thomas > On 11/14/16, 6:20 AM, "Thomas Morin" wrote: > >> Hi Ali, >> >> 2016-11-11, Ali Sajassi (sajassi): >>>> Here are a two comments on the changes in >>>> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-05: >>>> >>>>> 5.1.3 Constructing EVPN BGP Routes >>>>> >>>>> In EVPN, an MPLS label identifying forwarding table is distributed >>>>> by >>>> >>>> "identifying forwarding table" was inserted above in -05 >>>> Is the use of a per access circuit MPLS label really precluded ? Why ? >>> >>> It was added for clarification. To address your concern of not >>> precluding >>> ACs, I¹ll change the sentence as below: >>> >>> from: "In EVPN, an MPLS label identifying forwarding table is >>> distributed >>> by" >>> to: "In EVPN, an MPLS label typically identifying forwarding table is >>> distributed by" >> >> This is better, although "for instance" would I think be more appropriate. > > Done. Changed it to “for instance” > >> >>>> [...] >>>>> 9 Support for Multicast >>>>> >>>>> The E-VPN Inclusive Multicast BGP route is used to discover the >>>>> multicast tunnels among the endpoints associated with a given EVI >>>>> (e.g., given VNI) for VLAN-based service and a given for >>>>> VLAN-aware bundle service. The Ethernet Tag field of this route is >>>>> set as described in section 5.1.3. >>>> >>>> It was agreed in June to strike this sentence, which does not seem to >>>> add any information. >>>> ( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/bess/current/msg01769.html ) >>> >>> John agreed to strike the last sentence and not the whole paragraph. >> >> Indeed John agreed. >> (I'm not sure why you mention striking the whole paragraph, I don't >> recall anyone asking that, and certainly not me) >> >>> And frankly I think it is OK to keep the last sentence and to remind the >>> reader that the Ethernet Tag field is set per section 5.1.3. We are not >>> duplicating text here. We are just providing a reference. >> >> Mentioning *only* this field as being set as described in section 5.1.3 >> can also be a possible source of confusion (are other fields set >> according to another section?). >> >> I would suggest one of the following: >> - strike the sentence >> - say something like "all fields in this route are set as described in >> section 5.1.3" > > O.K. Done! > >> >> Best, >> >> -Thomas > From nobody Fri Nov 25 00:01:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C7812A23F for ; Fri, 25 Nov 2016 00:01:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VFeNED1m9ziw for ; Fri, 25 Nov 2016 00:01:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DCBC12A22C for ; 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([2601:642:4400:5082:f11b:9d6d:7afc:94dc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s5sm7205220pgj.19.2016.11.24.13.14.25 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Nov 2016 13:14:25 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Subject: Re: EVPN-VPWS Service Edge Gateway rev03 From: Sami Boutros In-Reply-To: <15F32090-B9AD-42AA-96AA-73745FF0EEB7@on.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 13:14:26 -0800 CC: "EXT Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" , "Patrice Brissette (pbrisset)" , "sboutros@vmware.com" , BESS Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <15F32090-B9AD-42AA-96AA-73745FF0EEB7@on.nokia.com> To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Jorge, Sorry for the delay, I will be addressing the comments below in the next re= v, and will be clarifying the DF election too. The DF election between the service edge nodes will follow RFC 7432 using t= he per ES Ethernet AD route, however will use the HRW algorithm. The election will be performed to decide on who will be the primary respond= ing to the EVPN VPWS Ethernet AD routes imported by the service edge nodes = from the access nodes by applying the HRW algorithm. I will clarify the text to reflect the above. Thanks, Sami > On Nov 21, 2016, at 6:05 AM, Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US) wrote: >=20 > Sami, >=20 > I looked at your Service Edge Gateway draft, and since my comments/questi= ons were not addressed in rev 03, I=E2=80=99m resending our last exchange. > Besides the comments below (please see the thread from earlier this year)= , the most confusing part to me is still the multi-homing on the Service Ed= ge nodes. After reading the text, still not sure if the intend is a DF elec= tion based out of the AD per-EVI routes or if the DF election follows regul= ar RFC7432 procedures. This is a blurry area in the draft and I would perso= nally appreciate a clarification. >=20 > Thank you. > Jorge >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 4/8/16, 3:37 PM, "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US)" wrote: >=20 > Hi Sami, >=20 > As discussed, this is the email. The new comments are tagged as [JORGE2]. > Please see in-line. > Thanks. > Jorge >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------ > From: Sami Boutros > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 5:39 AM > To: Jorge Rabadan > Cc: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [bess] Seeking Comments for EVPN-VPWS Service Edge Gateway >=20 >=20 > Hi Jorge, >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > Abstract >=20 > This document describes how a service node can dynamically terminate > EVPN virtual private wire transport service (VPWS) from access nodes > and offer Layer 2, Layer 3 and Ethernet VPN overlay services to > Customer edge devices connected to the access nodes. Service nodes > using EVPN will advertise to access nodes the L2, L3 and Ethernet VPN > overlay services it can offer for the terminated EVPN VPWS transport > service. On an access node an operator can specify the L2 or L3 or > Ethernet VPN overlay service needed by the customer edge device > connected to the access node that will be transported over the EVPN- > VPWS service between access node and service node. >=20 > /* [JORGE] it would be good to clearly state the benefit of doing this. > The main advantages that I see are service extension with single-side > provisioning (no need to provision new ACs at the service node). */ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Sami: will update the abstract.=20 > [JORGE2] I don=E2=80=99t see anything changed in rev 02 ;-) >=20 >=20 >=20 > >=20 > 1 Introduction >=20 >=20 > /* [JORGE] maybe this level of detail at the introduction is a bit > confusing. I think it would be better to state what the goal and > advantages are in the introduction and leave the details for the solution > description. */ >=20 > Sami: will update. > [JORGE2] I don=E2=80=99t see anything changed in rev 02 ;-) >=20 > > ... > 2.2 Scalability >=20 > (R2a) A single service node PE can be associated with many access > node PEs. The following requirements give a quantitative measure. >=20 > (R2b) A service node PE MUST support thousand(s) head-end connections > for a a given access node PE connecting to different overlay VRF > services on that service node. >=20 > (R2c) A service node PE MUST support thousand(s) head-end connections > to many access node PEs. >=20 >=20 > /* [JORGE] It is hard to understand... should the following be better?: >=20 > =E2=80=9C (R2b) A service node PE MUST support head-end functionality for > thousands of access node PEs that are connected to different VRFs on the > service node. > (R2c) A service node PE MUST support thousands of CE > connections through the attached access nodes." > */ >=20 >=20 > Sami: will update.=20 > [JORGE2] I don=E2=80=99t see anything changed in rev 02 ;-) >=20 >=20 > 2.5 Multi-homing >=20 > TBD >=20 > /* [JORGE] The solution should describe how to handle multi-homing at two > levels: > - Access node multi-homed to 2 or more Service nodes > - CE node multi-homed to 2 or more access nodes (this one should be > aligned with the EVPN-VPWS draft) > */ >=20 > Sami: Please have a look at the updated section in 01, as for the CE node= agreed that it should be aligned with EVPN-VPWS, and hence no need to ment= ion anything about it in the draft. >=20 > [JORGE2] OK, please see below. >=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > 4 Solution Overview >=20 >=20 > +---------+ +---------+ > | | | | > +----+ +-----+ | IP/MPLS | +-----+ | IP/MPLS | > | CE |---| PE1 |-| Access |-| PE2 |-| Core | > +----+ +-----+ | Network | +-----+ | Network | > | | | | > +---------+ +---------+ > <---- EVPN-VPWS ----><---- IP/MAC VRF ---> >=20 >=20 > Figure 1: EVPN-VPWS Service Edge Gateway. > AN: Access node > SE: Service Edge node. >=20 > EVPN-VPWS Service Edge Gateway Operation >=20 > /* [JORGE] Should this be section 4.1 on its own? */ >=20 > Sami: sure will do. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > At the service edge node, the EVPN Per-EVI Ethernet A-D routes will > be advertised with the ESI set to 0 and the Ethernet tag-id set to > (wildcard 0xFFFFFFF). The Ethernet A-D routes will have a unique RD > and will be associated with 2 BGP RT(s), one RT corresponding to the > underlay EVI i.e. the EVPN VPWS transport service that's configured > only among the service edge nodes, and one corresponding to the L2, > L3 or EVPN overlay service. >=20 > At the access nodes, the EVPN per-EVI Ethernet A-D routes will be > advertised as described in [draft-ietf-bess-evpn-vpws] with the ESI > field is set to 0 and for single homed CEs and to the CE's ESI for > multi-homed CE's and the Ethernet Tag field will be set to the VPWS > service instance identifier that identifies the EVPL or EPL service. > The Ethernet-AD route will have a unique RD and will be associated > with one BGP RT corresponding to the L2, L3 or EVPN overlay service > that will be transported over this EVPN VPWS transport service. >=20 > /* [JORGE] What do you mean by EVPN overlay service in this context? why > is it different from L2 or L3 service? should this be clarified in the > introduction? > Also by L2 and L3 are you referring to the encapsulation? i.e. L2 means > ethernet over the EVI label and L3 IP over the EVI label? */ >=20 > /* [JORGE] If the service RTs are the same in the access and core network= , > PE2 should have two different peering sessions, one to the RR in the > access network and one to the core RR. Is that the intend? if so, it may > be good to clarify */ >=20 > Sami:Can you please look at the updated version 01 and see what comments = still apply? >=20 > [JORGE2] Rev 01 or 02 don=E2=80=99t really add much information about it.= =20 >=20 >=20 > Service edge nodes on the underlay EVI will determine the primary > service node terminating the VPWS transport service and offering the > L2, L3 or Ethernet VPN service by running the on HWR algorithm as > described in [draft-mohanty-l2vpn-evpn-df-election] using weight > [VPWS service identifier, Service Edge Node IP address]. This ensure > that service node(s) will consistently pick the primary service node > even after service node failure. Upon primary service node failure, > all other remaining services nodes will choose another service node > correctly and consistently. >=20 > /*[JORGE] Following EVPN, the DF election is based on the exchange of ES > routes. Hence the assumption is that the two service nodes should > advertise ES routes with a system-level ESI and an AD route per ES with > the same ESI? The service node DF for a given service should send an AD p= er-EVI route with the P indication in the new EC defined in EVPN-VPWS. I be= lieve all the > existing procedures should be used, are you defining new ones? */ >=20 > Sami: Please have a look at 01. > [JORGE2] no changes in 01 or 02. Again more details are needed: > - How is the ES assigned to the service nodes. I suggest a system level E= SI or/and a virtual ES per service on the service nodes. The former is defi= ned in the dci-evpn-overlay draft. The latter should be stated here. > - Once the ES and ESI is assigned to the service nodes, regular EVPN proc= edures should follow. If not, it has to be explicitly stated. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Single-sided signaling mechanism is used. The Service PE node that is > a DF for accepts to terminate the VPWS transport service from an > access node, the primary service edge node shall:- Dynamically create > an interface to terminate the service and shall attach this interface > to the overlay VPN service required by the access node to service its > customer edge device.- Responds to the Eth A-D route per EVI from the > access node by sending its own Eth A-D per EVI route by setting the > same VPWS service instance ID and downstream assigned MPLS label to > be used by the access node. >=20 > /* [JORGE] Need to correct the format: the two bullets must go in > different lines */ >=20 > Sure will do. > [JORGE2] I think still there in rev 02. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > 4.1 Multi-homing >=20 > /* [JORGE] how bout the following scenario: >=20 > Here AN1 and AN2 have a ESI for the CE. Regular EVPN-VPWS procedures > should apply. >=20 > +---------+ +---------+ > +----+ +-----+ | | +-----+ | | > | CE +---+ AN1 +-+ +-+ SE2 +-+ | > +--+-+ +-----+ | IP/MPLS | +-----+ | IP/MPLS | > | | Access | | Core | > | +-----+ | Network | +-----+ | Network | > +-----+ AN2 +-+ +-+ SE3 +-+ | > +-----+ | | +-----+ | | > +---------+ +---------+ > <-----EVPN-VPWS-----><-----IP/MAC VRF----> >=20 > */ >=20 > Sami: Exactly, regular EVPN VPWS should apply, and hence why do we need t= o mention it? > [JORGE2] Because one may think that there are two ways of addressing this= : a) no ES on ANs, the ANs just provide a wire and the ES really represents= the CE or b) there are two ES in the diagram, one defined in the ANs and o= ne defined on the SE nodes. > I see that you mean (b) but it should be stated. >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 >=20 > Sami=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: BESS on behalf of Sami Boutros > Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 11:13 PM > To: "bess@ietf.org" > Subject: [bess] Seeking Comments for EVPN-VPWS Service Edge Gateway >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 >=20 > The draft proposes a dynamic mechanism to terminate the VPWS transport se= rvice at a service PE into an overlay L2 or L3 service based on a single si= de provisioning at the access PE. >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boutros-bess-evpn-vpws-service-edge-gat= eway-01 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 >=20 > Sami >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --------------CBF1D226821AC615B11A6A78-- From nobody Sat Nov 26 03:44:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDBA129535 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 03:44:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, 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FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id uAQBifVI025525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:44:42 GMT Received: from FR711WXCHMBA03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.179]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Sat, 26 Nov 2016 12:44:41 +0100 From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US)" To: Sami Boutros Thread-Topic: EVPN-VPWS Service Edge Gateway rev03 Thread-Index: AQHSRABiv6yr60bsPEa8HSqv2DFU56DolrQAgAKWO4A= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:44:41 +0000 Message-ID: <494A224D-EB25-4ED5-9A98-9AFD47807881@on.nokia.com> References: <15F32090-B9AD-42AA-96AA-73745FF0EEB7@on.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1c.1.161117 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_494A224DEB254ED59A989AFD47807881onnokiacom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Patrice Brissette \(pbrisset\)" , "EXT Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , "sboutros@vmware.com" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] EVPN-VPWS Service Edge Gateway rev03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:44:51 -0000 --_000_494A224DEB254ED59A989AFD47807881onnokiacom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgU2FtaSwNCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91Lg0KDQpJIHN0aWxsIGZhaWwgdG8gc2VlIHRoaXM6DQrigJxU aGUgREYgZWxlY3Rpb24gYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgc2VydmljZSBlZGdlIG5vZGVzIHdpbGwgZm9sbG93 IFJGQyA3NDMyIHVzaW5nIHRoZSBwZXIgRVMgRXRoZXJuZXQgQUQgcm91dGUsIGhvd2V2ZXIgd2ls bCB1c2UgdGhlIEhSVyBhbGdvcml0aG0u4oCdDQoNClJGQzc0MzLigJlzIERGIGVsZWN0aW9uIGlz 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Archived-At: Cc: "bess@ietf.org" , "bmwg@ietf.org" , Kishore Tiruveedhula Subject: Re: [bess] draft-kishjac-bmwg-pbbevpn X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 03:43:28 -0000 --_000_BN6PR05MB2963F2C106A4CD9B01477BB7C28A0BN6PR05MB2963namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSm9yZ2UgYW5kIElmdGVraGFyLA0KDQpZZXMgdGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgaW5wdXQsIHdlIGhh dmUgdGFrZW4gaW4gdG8gY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbi4gQ291bGQgeW91IHBsZWFzZSBnbyB0aHJvdWdo IHRoZSBkcmFmdCBhbmQgbGV0IHVzIGtub3cgYW55IG90aGVyIGFkZGl0aW9ucyByZXF1aXJlZCB0 aGF0IHdvdWxkIGEgZ3JlYXQgaGVscCBmb3IgdXMuDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsDQpTdWRoaW4NCg0KRnJv bTogUmFiYWRhbiwgSm9yZ2UgKE5va2lhIC0gVVMpIFttYWlsdG86am9yZ2UucmFiYWRhbkBub2tp YS5jb21dDQpTZW50OiBUaHVyc2RheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMjQsIDIwMTYgNTo1NyBQTQ0KVG86IElm 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cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvc3Bh bj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_3C20B6E021E744EFA9E95D10008E5B5Avmwarecom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 29 12:56:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bess@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC12129C82 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:56:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.824 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.824 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, THIS_AD=2.088] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pu3UfEo8wqBk for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:56:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com 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"Patrice Brissette \(pbrisset\)" , "EXT Ali Sajassi \(sajassi\)" , "bess@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bess] EVPN-VPWS Service Edge Gateway rev03 X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:56:33 -0000 --_000_219DDC6F55C94247B331A338397E2205onnokiacom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgU2FtaSwNCg0KWWVzLCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgYml0IG9mIGhhbmQtd2F2aW5nIGFi b3V0IHRoZSBTLVBFIGRpc2NvdmVyeSBhbmQgdGhpcyBERiBlbGVjdGlvbiDimLogc28gY2xhcmlm aWNhdGlvbiB3b3VsZCBiZSBhcHByZWNpYXRlZC4NCkFsc28sIGlmIHRoZSBFUyBpcyBtYW51YWxs eSBzZXQsIGNvdWxkbuKAmXQgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyB3b3JrIGluc3RlYWQgb2YgdGhlIGRlc2Ny aWJlZCB0ZXh0PzoNCi0gVGhlIFMtUEVzIHNlbmQgYW4gRVMgcm91dGUgZm9yIHRoZSBjb25maWd1 cmVkIEVTSSwgd2l0aCBSVD0gRVMtaW1wb3J0IFJUDQotIFRoZSBTLVBFcyBydW4gcmVndWxhciBE 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Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148054658618.9666.7845242632844754641.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:56:26 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: bess@ietf.org Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-07.txt X-BeenThere: bess@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: BGP-Enabled ServiceS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 22:56:26 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS of the IETF. Title : A Network Virtualization Overlay Solution using EVPN Authors : Ali Sajassi John Drake Nabil Bitar R. Shekhar James Uttaro Wim Henderickx Filename : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-07.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2016-11-30 Abstract: This document describes how Ethernet VPN (EVPN) [RFC7432] can be used as an Network Virtualization Overlay (NVO) solution and explores the various tunnel encapsulation options over IP and their impact on the EVPN control-plane and procedures. In particular, the following encapsulation options are analyzed: VXLAN, NVGRE, and MPLS over GRE. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-overlay-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/