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From: "Walsh, Brian (Nokia - SG/Singapore)" <brian.walsh@nokia.com>
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
CC: "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-nr-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-03
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:46:28 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/jSoiFpS-mIrHe9IeRSMpcOWK7zs>
Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-nr-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-03
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--_000_BC38FBFF84B8405D8ED5B064AEFA0127nokiacom_--


From nobody Fri Oct  2 15:45:36 2020
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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Multicast VPN Fast Upstream Failover
        Authors         : Thomas Morin
                          Robert Kebler
                          Greg Mirsky
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt
	Pages           : 22
	Date            : 2020-10-02

Abstract:
   This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that
   allow fast failover for upstream failures, by allowing downstream PEs
   to take into account the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when
   selecting the Upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow, and extending BGP
   MVPN routing so that a C-multicast route can be advertised toward a
   Standby Upstream PE.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Mon Oct  5 07:03:44 2020
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Subject: [bess] Last Call: <draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt> (Multicast VPN Fast Upstream Failover) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG (bess) to
consider the following document: - 'Multicast VPN Fast Upstream Failover'
  <draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-10-19. Exceptionally, comments may
be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that
   allow fast failover for upstream failures, by allowing downstream PEs
   to take into account the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when
   selecting the Upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow, and extending BGP
   MVPN routing so that a C-multicast route can be advertised toward a
   Standby Upstream PE.





The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover/


The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D:

   https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2696/
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2697/







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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-nr-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-03
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Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-nr-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-03
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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>
CC: BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 18:42:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>, BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 19:14:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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--_000_59A0E8A38E47430BAABE5B1043AAD87Dciscocom_--


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From: "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "draft-nr-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org" <draft-nr-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-nr-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-03
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/9-SCCpFfXFIsISdLVMQT43qcfTU>
Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption and IPR poll for draft-nr-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-03
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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/T0uGiwDTbsX2Q8y54TD2FlxSxP4>
Subject: Re: [bess] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Robert,

Thank you for the review.
Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].

Jorge

From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@i=
etf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@=
ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, Ma=
tthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS)
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my
ignorance here:

Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is
for a configured ARP/ND entry.

Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing
text:

      *  Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1
         for the same IP but different MAC is considered a
         misconfiguration.

But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to
point to a new MAC address?
[jorge] well, it shouldn=92t happen. The old route should be withdrawn befo=
re the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. Note that if a c=
onfigured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2,=
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before=
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94
Would that help?


Regards,
Rob





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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you for the review.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Robert Wilton via Datatracker &lt;norepl=
y@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, b=
ess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my<br=
>
ignorance here:<br>
<br>
Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is<br>
for a configured ARP/ND entry.<br>
<br>
Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing<br>
text:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Adver=
tisement routes with I=3D1<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the same IP but differ=
ent MAC is considered a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration.<br>
<br>
But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to<br>
point to a new MAC address?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] well, it shouldn=92t happen. The o=
ld route should be withdrawn before the new one is advertised. I added a se=
ntence in case it helps:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertis=
ement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different MAC is considered a m=
isconfiguration.
<b>Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC add=
ress, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&g=
t;MAC2 is advertised.=94<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Would that help?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [bess] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Bejamin,

Thanks for reviewing!

Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].

Thanks.
Jorge


From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:08 AM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@i=
etf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@=
ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, Ma=
tthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06:=
 (with COMMENT)
Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Should we say anything about how the ARP/ND Extended Community is
ignored in the absence of a sibling MAC/IP Advertisement Extended
Community?
[jorge] sure, I added:
=93Only one EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community is expected to be received along=
 with an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route. If more than one ARP/ND Extended =
Community is received, the PE MUST consider only the first one on the list =
for processing purposes and MUST NOT propagate the rest of the ARP/ND Exten=
ded Communities.=94


Should we remind the reader how the recipient knows that a given ARP/ND
Extended Community is associated to the coresponding MAC/IP
Advertisement Extended Community?
[jorge] the above text should clarify how to make that association if there=
 are multiple ARP/ND ext communities in the same update as the route. If th=
ere is only one, there should not be any ambiguity. Let me know if I=92m mi=
ssing something please.


There seems to be some latent risk in defining an "immutable" flag with
no defined way of clearing or unsetting it (e.g., having it time out).
We should either document what the operator should do when a formerly
immutable mapping needs to change or document the risk in the security
considerations section.  (This is, I think, related to Rob's Discuss.)
[jorge] good point, same as Rob=92s discuss. I replied to his discuss and a=
dded this sentence:
=93Note that if a configured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC addres=
s, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will =
be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is ad=
vertised.=94
Is that ok?


Section 1

   procedure.  However, the information conveyed in the EVPN MAC/IP
   Advertisement route may not be enough for the remote PE to reply to
   local ARP or ND requests.  For example, if a PE learns an IPv6->MAC

This makes it sound like we're rectifying a deficiency of the core spec,
and therefore might want to have an Updates: (or rather, "see also")
relationship to it.
[jorge] the current plan as discussed with our AD (Martin) is to make this =
draft normative for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd, and mark the latter =
as =93updates RFC7432=94.


   Advertisement routes.  Similarly, other information relevant to the
   host advertised in the MAC/IP Advertisement route may be needed.

(editorial) either we know what this "other information" is and could
list it explicitly (or by section reference), or we don't, and the
solution is incomplete.
[jorge] good point, thanks. The idea behind is that the other non-assigned =
flags can be used in the future to indicate information relevant to the hos=
t identified by the IP->MAC pair. Since that is not really needed, I remove=
d that sentence.


Section 1.1

   Proxy-ARP/ND: function on the EVPN PEs by which received Address
   Resolution Protocol (ARP) Requests or Neighbor Solicitation (NS)
   messages are replied locally by the PE, without the need to flood the

nit: "replied to"
[jorge] fixed, thanks.


Section 2

Should we explicitly say that this is a transitive extended community?
[jorge] ok, added:
=93This document defines a transitive EVPN Extended Community =85=94


   O - Override Flag (corresponds to Bit 22 of the Extended Community)
   Bit 6 of the Flags field is defined as the "Override Flag".  An
   egress PE will normally advertise IPv6->MAC pairs with the O Flag
   set, and only when IPv6 "anycast" is enabled in the BD or interface,
   the PE will send an IPv6->MAC pair with the O Flag =3D 0.  The ingress
   PE will install the ND entry with the received O Flag and will use
   this information when replying to a Neighbor Solicitation for the
   IPv6 address.  [...]


I'm not 100% sure I understand what this is saying.
My current understanding is that: at present (in the absence of this
extended community), a PE has to use heuristics to set the O flag in NA
messages, with the heuristic being "normally set the O flag, but when
the BD/interface has anycast enabled, clear the O flag".  The new
behavior when the information in this extended community is available,
is then to "always send the value received from the extended community".
[jorge] yes, I added this to clarify:
=93..and will always use this O Flag value when replying to a Neighbor Soli=
citation for the IPv6 address=85=94


However, if my understanding (above) is correct, that doesn't seem quite
right, since it's generally not safe to set the O flag in such an
"anycast" scenario.  Am I missing something?
[jorge] sorry, not sure if I understand... suppose you have two hosts conne=
cted to the same broadcast domain, h1 and h2. If h2 sends a NS message, h1 =
can reply with O=3D1 or O=3D0. If that BD is now EVPN enabled, the NS and N=
A messages are translated into MAC/IP routes with the flags in the ext comm=
unity. To me both cases are equally safe or unsafe? Let me know if I=92m mi=
ssing something please.


   Community) is a configured ARP/ND entry.  The IP address in the EVPN
   MAC/IP Advertisement route can only be bound together with the MAC
   address specified in the same route.

nit: I'm not sure I understand what "can only be bound together with"
means here.  (What would the other option be?)
[jorge] I added this to clarify:
=93In this case, the IP address in the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route can =
only be bound together with the MAC address specified in the same route, an=
d not with any other MAC addresses received in a different route without th=
e I Flag set.=94


Section 3.1

Just to check my understanding: the dynamic learning here only applies
to NA messages received from the CE directly, not those received from
other EVPN routers?  (Do we need to say that explicitly?)
[jorge] correct, however not sure we need to say it explicitly. Other specs=
 such as draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd specify all that.


   o  This Extended Community does not change the procedures described
      in [RFC7432].  Specifically the procedures for advertising the MAC
      Mobility Extended Community along with the MAC/IP Advertisement
      route are not changed.

(side note) I'm not entirely sure how one might expect the MAC Mobility
processing to have changed as a result of the addition of the ARP/ND
Extended Community, but there doesn't seem to be any real harm in
mentioning it like this.
[jorge] it=92s just an extra clarification just in case the reader is wonde=
ring. I think it=92s worth mentioning.


Section 3.2

      *  If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route contains an IPv6 address
         and the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, the PE MUST add the R
         and O Flags to the ND entry in the ND or proxy-ND table and use
         that information in Neighbor Advertisements when replying to a
         Solicitation for the IPv6 address.

editorial: "add the R and O Flags" could sound like they are always set
to 1; perhaps "propagate the value of the R and O flags from the ARP/ND
Extended Community to the ND entry"?
[jorge] good point, I changed it to:
=93If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route contains an IPv6 address and the =
EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, the PE MUST add the R and O Flag values to =
the ND entry in the ND or proxy-ND table, and propagate the value of the R =
and O flags from the ARP/ND Extended Community to the Neighbor Advertisemen=
ts when replying to a Solicitation for the IPv6 address.=94


         move as well.  Even so, if an update for the same IP1->MAC1
         immutable and static, is received from a different PE, one of
         the two routes will be selected, as in the [RFC7432] case where
         two MAC/IP routes with Static bit are received for the same MAC
         from different PEs.

I couldn't find much discussion of this scenario in RFC 7432 by
searching for "static" or "sticky"; could you help point me in the right
direction?
[jorge] the static flag is defined in RFC7432, section 15.2. It does not ex=
plain explicitly how the selection works for two MAC/IP routes with the sam=
e MAC (different RD) from two different PEs, it=92s up to the implementatio=
n. The point here is that implementations should do the same for the I flag=
.


   destination to PE2.  If for some reason, PE3 originates an EVPN MAC/
   IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 (even with a higher sequence
   number), then the EVPN PEs in the BD SHOULD NOT update their
   IP1->MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 is bound to MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD
   still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs).  This is considered a
   misconfiguration in PE3.

I don't really understand the motivation for SHOULD NOT, here.  It seems
like a PE would need to violate some other part of the spec in order to
do so, so just "will not" would be workable.
(I'm also left to assume that the route from PE3 sets I=3D0, which might
be worth making explicit.)
[jorge] good one, changed it to:
=93If for some reason, PE3 originates an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route fo=
r IP1->MAC2 with I=3D0 (even with a higher sequence number), then the EVPN =
PEs in the BD will not update their IP1->MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 is=
 bound to MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs). This i=
s considered a misconfiguration in PE3.=94


   The use of the Flag I=3D1 assumes that a given IP is always bound to
   the same MAC address, and therefore the mobility procedures described
   in [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility] for "Host IP move to a
   new MAC" will not apply.

Do we want to say anything about how things should behave if the
assumption is violated?
[jorge] probably not, the use of the I flag in the spec means an IP cannot =
move to a new MAC. Maybe we will need to make it also explicit in I-D.ietf-=
bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility.


Section 4

It seems like this mechanism (or rather, RFC 7432's MAC/IP
Advertisement) doesn't really affect the spoofability of ND; the same
information (actually the same, now that this mechanism exists to send
the R/O flags) is being conveyed just over a different protocol, and
DAD/mobility should still work the same way.  There's an extra
translation step at the PEs the introduces an opportunity for
translation errors but that's not very noteworthy.

The I flag is somewhat different, as I mentioned at the top of my
comments.

   Similarly, the receiver of a NA message with the wrong R flag, may
   update its Default Router List incorrectly adding or removing an
   entry.

I suggest adding at the end of the sentence ", which could for example
lead to sending traffic to a node that is not a router, causing the
traffic to be dropped".
[jorge] added, thank you


Section 5

Given the email discussion regarding the use of flag position 5, should
a note be left in the registry about that informal usage?
[jorge] yes, but this document should not say anything, right? Let me know.




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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Bejamin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thanks for reviewing!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker &lt;norep=
ly@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:08 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, b=
ess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-fl=
ags-06: (with COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
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eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Should we say anything about how the ARP/ND Extended Community is<br>
ignored in the absence of a sibling MAC/IP Advertisement Extended<br>
Community?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] sure, I added:<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Only one EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community=
 is expected to be received along with an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route. =
If more than one ARP/ND Extended Community
 is received, the PE MUST consider only the first one on the list for proce=
ssing purposes and MUST NOT propagate the rest of the ARP/ND Extended Commu=
nities.=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Should we remind the reader how the recipient knows that a given ARP/ND<br>
Extended Community is associated to the coresponding MAC/IP<br>
Advertisement Extended Community?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] the above text should clarify how =
to make that association if there are multiple ARP/ND ext communities in th=
e same update as the route. If there is
 only one, there should not be any ambiguity. Let me know if I=92m missing =
something please.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
There seems to be some latent risk in defining an &quot;immutable&quot; fla=
g with<br>
no defined way of clearing or unsetting it (e.g., having it time out).<br>
We should either document what the operator should do when a formerly<br>
immutable mapping needs to change or document the risk in the security<br>
considerations section.&nbsp; (This is, I think, related to Rob's Discuss.)=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] good point, same as Rob=92s discus=
s. I replied to his discuss and added this sentence:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 =
changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP =
Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC1 will be withdrawn
 before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 is advertised.=
=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Is that ok?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Section 1<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; procedure.&nbsp; However, the information conveyed in the EVPN=
 MAC/IP<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Advertisement route may not be enough for the remote PE to rep=
ly to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; local ARP or ND requests.&nbsp; For example, if a PE learns an=
 IPv6-&gt;MAC<br>
<br>
This makes it sound like we're rectifying a deficiency of the core spec,<br=
>
and therefore might want to have an Updates: (or rather, &quot;see also&quo=
t;)<br>
relationship to it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] the current plan as discussed with=
 our AD (Martin) is to make this draft normative for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-p=
roxy-arp-nd, and mark the latter as =93updates
 RFC7432=94.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Advertisement routes.&nbsp; Similarly, other information relev=
ant to the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; host advertised in the MAC/IP Advertisement route may be neede=
d.<br>
<br>
(editorial) either we know what this &quot;other information&quot; is and c=
ould<br>
list it explicitly (or by section reference), or we don't, and the<br>
solution is incomplete.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] good point, thanks. The idea behin=
d is that the other non-assigned flags can be used in the future to indicat=
e information relevant to the host identified
 by the IP-&gt;MAC pair. Since that is not really needed, I removed that se=
ntence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Section 1.1<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Proxy-ARP/ND: function on the EVPN PEs by which received Addre=
ss<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Resolution Protocol (ARP) Requests or Neighbor Solicitation (N=
S)<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; messages are replied locally by the PE, without the need to fl=
ood the<br>
<br>
nit: &quot;replied to&quot;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] fixed, thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Section 2<br>
<br>
Should we explicitly say that this is a transitive extended community?<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] ok, added:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93This document defines a transitive EVPN=
 Extended Community =85=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; O - Override Flag (corresponds to Bit 22 of the Extended Commu=
nity)<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Bit 6 of the Flags field is defined as the &quot;Override Flag=
&quot;.&nbsp; An<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; egress PE will normally advertise IPv6-&gt;MAC pairs with the =
O Flag<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; set, and only when IPv6 &quot;anycast&quot; is enabled in the =
BD or interface,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the PE will send an IPv6-&gt;MAC pair with the O Flag =3D 0.&n=
bsp; The ingress<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; PE will install the ND entry with the received O Flag and will=
 use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; this information when replying to a Neighbor Solicitation for =
the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; IPv6 address.&nbsp; [...]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
I'm not 100% sure I understand what this is saying.<br>
My current understanding is that: at present (in the absence of this<br>
extended community), a PE has to use heuristics to set the O flag in NA<br>
messages, with the heuristic being &quot;normally set the O flag, but when<=
br>
the BD/interface has anycast enabled, clear the O flag&quot;.&nbsp; The new=
<br>
behavior when the information in this extended community is available,<br>
is then to &quot;always send the value received from the extended community=
&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] yes, I added this to clarify:<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93..and will always use this O Flag value=
 when replying to a Neighbor Solicitation for the IPv6 address=85=94<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
However, if my understanding (above) is correct, that doesn't seem quite<br=
>
right, since it's generally not safe to set the O flag in such an<br>
&quot;anycast&quot; scenario.&nbsp; Am I missing something?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] sorry, not sure if I understand...=
 suppose you have two hosts connected to the same broadcast domain, h1 and =
h2. If h2 sends a NS message, h1 can reply
 with O=3D1 or O=3D0. If that BD is now EVPN enabled, the NS and NA message=
s are translated into MAC/IP routes with the flags in the ext community. To=
 me both cases are equally safe or unsafe? Let me know if I=92m missing som=
ething please.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Community) is a configured ARP/ND entry.&nbsp; The IP address =
in the EVPN<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; MAC/IP Advertisement route can only be bound together with the=
 MAC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; address specified in the same route.<br>
<br>
nit: I'm not sure I understand what &quot;can only be bound together with&q=
uot;<br>
means here.&nbsp; (What would the other option be?)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] I added this to clarify:<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93In this case, the IP address in the EVP=
N MAC/IP Advertisement route can only be bound together with the MAC addres=
s specified in the same route, and not with
 any other MAC addresses received in a different route without the I Flag s=
et.=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Section 3.1<br>
<br>
Just to check my understanding: the dynamic learning here only applies<br>
to NA messages received from the CE directly, not those received from<br>
other EVPN routers?&nbsp; (Do we need to say that explicitly?)<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] correct, however not sure we need =
to say it explicitly. Other specs such as draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd=
 specify all that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; This Extended Community does not change the procedures=
 described<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in [RFC7432].&nbsp; Specifically the procedu=
res for advertising the MAC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mobility Extended Community along with the M=
AC/IP Advertisement<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; route are not changed.<br>
<br>
(side note) I'm not entirely sure how one might expect the MAC Mobility<br>
processing to have changed as a result of the addition of the ARP/ND<br>
Extended Community, but there doesn't seem to be any real harm in<br>
mentioning it like this.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] it=92s just an extra clarification=
 just in case the reader is wondering. I think it=92s worth mentioning.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Section 3.2<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement rou=
te contains an IPv6 address<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and the EVPN ARP/ND Extend=
ed Community, the PE MUST add the R<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and O Flags to the ND entr=
y in the ND or proxy-ND table and use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that information in Neighb=
or Advertisements when replying to a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Solicitation for the IPv6 =
address.<br>
<br>
editorial: &quot;add the R and O Flags&quot; could sound like they are alwa=
ys set<br>
to 1; perhaps &quot;propagate the value of the R and O flags from the ARP/N=
D<br>
Extended Community to the ND entry&quot;?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] good point, I changed it to:<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route =
contains an IPv6 address and the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, the PE MUS=
T add the R and O Flag values to the ND
 entry in the ND or proxy-ND table, and propagate the value of the R and O =
flags from the ARP/ND Extended Community to the Neighbor Advertisements whe=
n replying to a Solicitation for the IPv6 address.=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; move as well.&nbsp; Even s=
o, if an update for the same IP1-&gt;MAC1<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; immutable and static, is r=
eceived from a different PE, one of<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the two routes will be sel=
ected, as in the [RFC7432] case where<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; two MAC/IP routes with Sta=
tic bit are received for the same MAC<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; from different PEs.<br>
<br>
I couldn't find much discussion of this scenario in RFC 7432 by<br>
searching for &quot;static&quot; or &quot;sticky&quot;; could you help poin=
t me in the right<br>
direction?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] the static flag is defined in RFC7=
432, section 15.2. It does not explain explicitly how the selection works f=
or two MAC/IP routes with the same MAC
 (different RD) from two different PEs, it=92s up to the implementation. Th=
e point here is that implementations should do the same for the I flag.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; destination to PE2.&nbsp; If for some reason, PE3 originates a=
n EVPN MAC/<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 (even with a higher se=
quence<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; number), then the EVPN PEs in the BD SHOULD NOT update their<b=
r>
&nbsp;&nbsp; IP1-&gt;MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 is bound to MAC1 (MAC2=
 SHOULD<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs).&nbsp; This is conside=
red a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration in PE3.<br>
<br>
I don't really understand the motivation for SHOULD NOT, here.&nbsp; It see=
ms<br>
like a PE would need to violate some other part of the spec in order to<br>
do so, so just &quot;will not&quot; would be workable.<br>
(I'm also left to assume that the route from PE3 sets I=3D0, which might<br=
>
be worth making explicit.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] good one, changed it to:<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93If for some reason, PE3 originates an E=
VPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 with I=3D0 (even with a hig=
her sequence number), then the EVPN PEs in the
 BD will not update their IP1-&gt;MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 is bound =
to MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs). This is consi=
dered a misconfiguration in PE3.=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The use of the Flag I=3D1 assumes that a given IP is always bo=
und to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the same MAC address, and therefore the mobility procedures de=
scribed<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; in [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility] for &quot;Host I=
P move to a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; new MAC&quot; will not apply.<br>
<br>
Do we want to say anything about how things should behave if the<br>
assumption is violated?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] probably not, the use of the I fla=
g in the spec means an IP cannot move to a new MAC. Maybe we will need to m=
ake it also explicit in I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Section 4<br>
<br>
It seems like this mechanism (or rather, RFC 7432's MAC/IP<br>
Advertisement) doesn't really affect the spoofability of ND; the same<br>
information (actually the same, now that this mechanism exists to send<br>
the R/O flags) is being conveyed just over a different protocol, and<br>
DAD/mobility should still work the same way.&nbsp; There's an extra<br>
translation step at the PEs the introduces an opportunity for<br>
translation errors but that's not very noteworthy.<br>
<br>
The I flag is somewhat different, as I mentioned at the top of my<br>
comments.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Similarly, the receiver of a NA message with the wrong R flag,=
 may<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; update its Default Router List incorrectly adding or removing =
an<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; entry.<br>
<br>
I suggest adding at the end of the sentence &quot;, which could for example=
<br>
lead to sending traffic to a node that is not a router, causing the<br>
traffic to be dropped&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] added, thank you<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Section 5<br>
<br>
Given the email discussion regarding the use of flag position 5, should<br>
a note be left in the registry about that informal usage?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] yes, but this document should not =
say anything, right? Let me know.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
To: Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/nsUGUS4qrIKYgkKXuTFfn5AjVDw>
Subject: Re: [bess] Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Erik,

Thank you for the review.
Please see in-line and let us know your thoughts.

Thanks!
Jorge

From: Erik Kline via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:15 AM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@i=
etf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@=
ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, Ma=
tthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DI=
SCUSS)
Erik Kline has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[ general ]

* ND in IPv6 is more than just its analogous ARP function (as immediately
  evidenced by the need to support passing the NA flags).  I'm concerned th=
at
  this approach isn't actually satisfactory for IPv6, and could end up
  constraining existing and future ND extensions and uses.

  [1] New flags

  As new flags are defined in the NA message, they will not be deployable
  in these environments until this standard (and possibly others) is update=
d.

  A more forward-compatible option might be to just include the whole NA
  "flags plus reserved" word (there is room for it in the format in
  section 2).
[jorge] that could have been an option, however the authors made a decision=
 to have the flags that were used for the required use cases. Also there ar=
e flags specific to the EVPN proxy-ARP/ND and IRB use cases that are not pr=
esent in the NA messages, however they are needed on the PEs to make the ri=
ght EVPN MAC/IP route selection (i.e. I flag). Also, there are already impl=
ementations so I=92m afraid we can=92t change the format of the extended co=
mmunity.
IMHO if new NA flags are defined in the future, they may or may not be rele=
vant to the EVPN MAC/IP route. And if they are, a new document should be ne=
eded to register a new flag in the ext community and explain the procedures=
.


  [2] Current and new NA ND Options

  This approach doesn't support sending additional ND Options in the NA, an=
d
  therefore things like Secure Neighbor Discovery (SeND, RFC 3971) cannot
  be supported (nor can any future NA option).

  Arguably, ND proxying might best be disabled when a node is attempting to
  use SeND and/or whenever a Nonce Option is present an NA.  Nevertheless,
  new ND options might be specified that can be carried in NS/NA messages.
[jorge] I agree with you proxying might be best disabled if options are use=
d (at least some). Note that this spec just defines an ARP/ND extended comm=
unity that is not only used for proxy functions in EVPN networks. I think t=
he issues related to the use of ND options in EVPN proxy-ND should be discu=
ssed in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd. Actually section 4.3 in that spe=
c is an attempt to address that.


  RFC 4861 sections 4.2 and 4.3 say that "[f]uture versions of this protoco=
l
  may define new option types", and while it also says that "[r]eceivers
  MUST silently ignore any options they do not recognize and continue
  processing the message", in this case it would be the infrastructure that
  would prevent two nodes from attempting to use a newer ND option on eithe=
r
  side of this PE/CE proxying boundary and not necessarily a limitation of =
the
  nodes themselves.

  There is no space for these options in the current section 2 format.
  Can it be extended to optionally carry the ND options that a PE has
  observed to be sent by the node?

  Alternatively, I think we'll need some text that ND proxying MUST be
  disabled if NSes contain any options other things like TLLAO or if NAs ar=
e
  observed to have anything other than SLLAO.

  Basically, I think we should take care to not impede the deployment of an=
y
  extensions to ND.
[jorge] these are all very good points, however, as I said earlier, all iss=
ues related to proxy-ND in EVPN networks should be addressed in draft-ietf-=
bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd. It would be great if you can provide feedback about=
 that document so that we make sure we address all your concerns.






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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Erik,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you for the review.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Please see in-line and let us know your thoughts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Erik Kline via Datatracker &lt;noreply@i=
etf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:15 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, b=
ess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
Erik Kline has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
[ general ]<br>
<br>
* ND in IPv6 is more than just its analogous ARP function (as immediately<b=
r>
&nbsp; evidenced by the need to support passing the NA flags).&nbsp; I'm co=
ncerned that<br>
&nbsp; this approach isn't actually satisfactory for IPv6, and could end up=
<br>
&nbsp; constraining existing and future ND extensions and uses.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; [1] New flags<br>
<br>
&nbsp; As new flags are defined in the NA message, they will not be deploya=
ble<br>
&nbsp; in these environments until this standard (and possibly others) is u=
pdated.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; A more forward-compatible option might be to just include the whole =
NA<br>
&nbsp; &quot;flags plus reserved&quot; word (there is room for it in the fo=
rmat in<br>
&nbsp; section 2).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] that could have been an option, ho=
wever the authors made a decision to have the flags that were used for the =
required use cases. Also there are flags
 specific to the EVPN proxy-ARP/ND and IRB use cases that are not present i=
n the NA messages, however they are needed on the PEs to make the right EVP=
N MAC/IP route selection (i.e. I flag). Also, there are already implementat=
ions so I=92m afraid we can=92t change
 the format of the extended community.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">IMHO if new NA flags are defined in the fu=
ture, they may or may not be relevant to the EVPN MAC/IP route. And if they=
 are, a new document should be needed
 to register a new flag in the ext community and explain the procedures.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; [2] Current and new NA ND Options<br>
<br>
&nbsp; This approach doesn't support sending additional ND Options in the N=
A, and<br>
&nbsp; therefore things like Secure Neighbor Discovery (SeND, RFC 3971) can=
not<br>
&nbsp; be supported (nor can any future NA option).<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Arguably, ND proxying might best be disabled when a node is attempti=
ng to<br>
&nbsp; use SeND and/or whenever a Nonce Option is present an NA.&nbsp; Neve=
rtheless,<br>
&nbsp; new ND options might be specified that can be carried in NS/NA messa=
ges.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] I agree with you proxying might be=
 best disabled if options are used (at least some). Note that this spec jus=
t defines an ARP/ND extended community
 that is not only used for proxy functions in EVPN networks. I think the is=
sues related to the use of ND options in EVPN proxy-ND should be discussed =
in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd. Actually section 4.3 in that spec is =
an attempt to address that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; RFC 4861 sections 4.2 and 4.3 say that &quot;[f]uture versions of th=
is protocol<br>
&nbsp; may define new option types&quot;, and while it also says that &quot=
;[r]eceivers<br>
&nbsp; MUST silently ignore any options they do not recognize and continue<=
br>
&nbsp; processing the message&quot;, in this case it would be the infrastru=
cture that<br>
&nbsp; would prevent two nodes from attempting to use a newer ND option on =
either<br>
&nbsp; side of this PE/CE proxying boundary and not necessarily a limitatio=
n of the<br>
&nbsp; nodes themselves.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; There is no space for these options in the current section 2 format.=
<br>
&nbsp; Can it be extended to optionally carry the ND options that a PE has<=
br>
&nbsp; observed to be sent by the node?<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Alternatively, I think we'll need some text that ND proxying MUST be=
<br>
&nbsp; disabled if NSes contain any options other things like TLLAO or if N=
As are<br>
&nbsp; observed to have anything other than SLLAO.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; Basically, I think we should take care to not impede the deployment =
of any<br>
&nbsp; extensions to ND.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] these are all very good points, ho=
wever, as I said earlier, all issues related to proxy-ND in EVPN networks s=
hould be addressed in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd.
 It would be great if you can provide feedback about that document so that =
we make sure we address all your concerns.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Warren,

Thank you for reviewing!

Please see some comments in-line and let us know if we still need to add in=
formation to the security section.

Thx
Jorge

From: Warren Kumari via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@i=
etf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@=
ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, Ma=
tthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...


This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertisements. =
It
seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exha=
ust
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning
memory / state / etc.

This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this document
seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in the
Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explanation
that I'm mistaken :-)).
--------------------
[jorge] we=92re happy to add any other explanations in the security section=
, however I thought your concern could have been addressed by this existing=
 sentence:
   =93In addition, this document adds pieces of information that impact on
   the way ARP/ND entries are installed in ARP/ND and/or proxy-ARP/ND
   tables, and therefore the resolution protocols for IPv4 and IPv6
   addresses.=94

Also, can you please clarify what you mean by this?:
=93this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exhaust
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning
memory / state / etc.=94
Note that the new flags come in an extended community, which is not part of=
 the route key, hence receiving multiple combinations of flags with the sam=
e IP->MAC information will not create new state, but update the existing on=
e. As an example, if a PE receives IP1->MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0) and later IP1->MA=
C1(R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will not create additional state but will update th=
e entry with the latest information. Let me know if I=92m missing your poin=
t please, and if so it would be great if you can suggest some text for the =
security section.
--------------------



I also support EK & Rob's DISCUSSes
[jorge] we think we addressed their discusses=85 but obviously they (and yo=
u) can let us know if it is not the case.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and easy =
to
understand - thank you for writing it...
[jorge] thank you for your kind words!




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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Warren,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you for reviewing!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Please see some comments in-line and let us know if we still need to add =
information to the security section.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Warren Kumari via Datatracker &lt;norepl=
y@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, b=
ess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertisements. =
It<br>
seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exha=
ust<br>
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make<br>
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning<=
br>
memory / state / etc.<br>
<br>
This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this document<=
br>
seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in the<br=
>
Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explanation=
<br>
that I'm mistaken :-)).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">--------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] we=92re happy to add any other exp=
lanations in the security section, however I thought your concern could hav=
e been addressed by this existing sentence:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; =93In addition, this document add=
s pieces of information that impact on<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; the way ARP/ND entries are instal=
led in ARP/ND and/or proxy-ARP/ND<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; tables, and therefore the resolut=
ion protocols for IPv4 and IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; addresses.=94
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Also, can you please clarify what you mean=
 by this?:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93this gives a DoS-style attacker more op=
portunities to exhaust<br>
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make<br>
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning<=
br>
memory / state / etc.=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Note that the new flags come in an extende=
d community, which is not part of the route key, hence receiving multiple c=
ombinations of flags with the same IP-&gt;MAC
 information will not create new state, but update the existing one. As an =
example, if a PE receives IP1-&gt;MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0) and later IP1-&gt;MAC1(=
R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will not create additional state but will update the e=
ntry with the latest information. Let me know
 if I=92m missing your point please, and if so it would be great if you can=
 suggest some text for the security section.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">--------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
I also support EK &amp; Rob's DISCUSSes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] we think we addressed their discus=
ses=85 but obviously they (and you) can let us know if it is not the case.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and easy =
to<br>
understand - thank you for writing it...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] thank you for your kind words!<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_MWHPR08MB3520795536E9CD46EE53DA4AF7080MWHPR08MB3520namp_--


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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Propagation of ARP/ND Flags in EVPN
        Authors         : Jorge Rabadan
                          Senthil Sathappan
                          Kiran Nagaraj
                          Wen Lin
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-07.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2020-10-09

Abstract:
   This document defines an Extended Community that is advertised along
   with an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route and carries information
   relevant to the ARP/ND resolution, so that an EVPN PE implementing a
   proxy-ARP/ND or ARP/ND (on IRB interfaces) function can reply to ARP
   Requests or Neighbor Solicitations with the correct information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>, pce@ietf.org, IDR List <idr@ietf.org>, lsr <lsr@ietf.org>,  BESS <bess@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: [bess] PCE Controller & SDN Controller & Netconf/Yang NMS Controller - lines blurred and can the names be used ubiquitously meaning the same
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--0000000000000bf09f05b15621d5
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Dear TEAS, PCE, IDR, LSR, BESS, BIER  Spring Working Groups,

I have noticed that after reviewing many drafts across many WGs it seems in
the industry that the lines seem to be blurred between a PCE controller,
ODL or Openflow SDN Controller and a Netconf/Yang NMS Controller ZTP & Day
X provisioning.

As this is a software sitting on a server you can have a swiss army knife
server that does everything from PCE path computation to  Netconf/Yang ZTP
& Day N provisioning as well as any SDN Controller ODL or Openflow
controller type functions as well.

How this comes into play and realization of the lines being blurred is the
use of BGP-LS in building the IGP topological graph of the network which
was designed for PCEP and PCE & PCC active & passive off line path
computation for both RSVP-TE or SR-TE path instantiation.

However now BGP-LS can also be used for other functions now such as usage
as I am a Shepherd reviewing a draft for BGP-LS usage for BIER to use
BGP-LS to gather the elements internals within BIER using the same BGP-LS
data structures to populate with BIER specific information to graph the
BIER topology.  So here we are not doing any path computations as we are
using in this use case  for NMS type function to gather data for ZTP & Day
N provisioning.

Similarly other use cases such as with TEAS TS-Transport slice and being
able to provision TS and capturing the TS Enhanced VPN RT & resource
information and leveraging BGP-LS to do the same data gathering & ZTP like
controller style provisioning.

It does seem as though BGP-LS as its a means of "data gathering" "dump
truck" of anything with the kitchen sink included to build any type of
topological graph of literally anything under the sun.  I see that is a
nice to leverage but it does in fact blur the lines of NMS Netconf/Yang
Controller based functionality and  PCE path computation functionality and
SDN controller based ZTP functionality into a single ubiquitous server that
can do all of the above and use BGP-LS to accomplish the "kitchen sink"
tasks.  It does however transform BGP to be an NMS tool but a "tool" and
not just the original function which it was intended NLRI network
reachability.

Am I off base and please let me know as its BGP-LS is being way over
leveraged.  There are pros & cons to everything but I thought I would bring
up to the WG as an important discussion point.

Lots of food for thought.  Welcome all comments as well as concerns related
to this topic.

Kind Regards,

<http://www.verizon.com/>

*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *



*M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD

--0000000000000bf09f05b15621d5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>Dear TEAS, PCE, IDR, LSR, BESS, BIER=C2=A0 =
Spring Working Groups,<div><br></div><div>I have noticed that after reviewi=
ng many drafts across many WGs it seems in the industry that the lines seem=
 to be blurred between a PCE controller, ODL or Openflow SDN Controller and=
 a Netconf/Yang NMS Controller ZTP &amp; Day X provisioning.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>As this is a software sitting on a server you can have a swiss a=
rmy knife server that does everything from PCE path computation to=C2=A0 Ne=
tconf/Yang ZTP &amp; Day N provisioning as well as any SDN Controller ODL o=
r Openflow controller type functions as well.</div><div><br></div><div>How =
this comes into play and realization of the lines being blurred is the use =
of BGP-LS in building the IGP topological graph of the network which was de=
signed for PCEP and PCE &amp; PCC active &amp; passive off line path comput=
ation for both RSVP-TE or SR-TE path instantiation.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>However now BGP-LS can also be used for other functions now s=
uch as usage as I am a Shepherd reviewing a draft for BGP-LS usage for BIER=
 to use BGP-LS to gather the elements internals within BIER using the same =
BGP-LS data structures to populate with BIER specific information to graph =
the BIER topology.=C2=A0 So here we are not doing any path computations as =
we are using in this use case=C2=A0 for NMS type function to gather data fo=
r ZTP &amp; Day N provisioning.</div><div><br></div><div>Similarly other us=
e cases such as with TEAS TS-Transport slice and being able to provision TS=
 and capturing the TS Enhanced VPN RT &amp; resource information and levera=
ging BGP-LS to do the same data gathering &amp; ZTP like controller style p=
rovisioning.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>It does seem as though BGP-LS a=
s its a means of &quot;data gathering&quot; &quot;dump truck&quot; of anyth=
ing with the kitchen sink included to build any type of topological graph o=
f literally anything under the sun.=C2=A0 I see that is a nice to leverage =
but it does in fact blur the lines of NMS Netconf/Yang Controller based fun=
ctionality and=C2=A0 PCE path computation functionality and SDN controller =
based ZTP functionality into a single ubiquitous server that can do all of =
the above and use BGP-LS to accomplish the &quot;kitchen sink&quot; tasks.=
=C2=A0 It does however transform BGP to be an NMS tool but a &quot;tool&quo=
t; and not just the original function which it was intended NLRI network re=
achability.</div><div><div><br></div><div>Am I off base and please let me k=
now as its BGP-LS is being way over leveraged.=C2=A0 There are pros &amp; c=
ons to everything but I thought I would bring up to the WG as an important =
discussion point.</div><div><br></div><div>Lots of food for thought.=C2=A0 =
Welcome all comments as well as concerns related to this topic.</div><div><=
br></div>Kind Regards,<br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-s=
martmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href=3D"http://www.verizon.com/" sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);padding-bottom:1em;display:inline-block" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo=
-email" width=3D"81" height=3D"18" style=3D"height:18px;width:81px"></a><br=
></p><p style=3D"font-size:1em;margin:0px;font-family:&quot;Verizon NHG DS&=
quot;,Arial,sans-serif;line-height:13px;color:black"><b>Gyan Mishra</b></p>=
<p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);margin:0px;line-height:13px"><font face=3D"=
georgia, serif" style=3D"color:black;font-size:1em"><i>Network Solutions A<=
/i></font><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>rchitect=C2=A0=
</i></font></p><p style=3D"font-size:1em;margin:0px;line-height:13px;color:=
black"><i><font face=3D"georgia, serif">M 301 502-1347<br>13101 Columbia Pi=
ke=C2=A0<br></font></i>Silver Spring, MD</p></div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000000bf09f05b15621d5--


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From: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" <satyamoh@cisco.com>
To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>, BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [bess] Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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Subject: Re: [bess] Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
To: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" <satyamoh@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [bess] Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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Subject: Re: [bess] Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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From: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" <satyamoh@cisco.com>
To: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
CC: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>, BESS <bess@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [bess] Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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Subject: Re: [bess] Second try: Router's MAC Extended Community in draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 09:38:53 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHw9_iLbn4QA5AoEXYidSY-E=wCLi4UzqN3xRZENCYM0d77mbQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/x6ONrroIXlGGIoYLfc3YR0HxRrQ>
Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:

> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> Thank you for reviewing!
>
>
>
> Please see some comments in-line and let us know if we still need to add
> information to the security section.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> *From: *Warren Kumari via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> *Date: *Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM
> *To: *The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> *Cc: *draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <
> bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew
> (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
> matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
> *Subject: *Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06:
> (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...
>
>
>
> This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertisements=
.
> It
> seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to
> exhaust
> state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states
> (make
> up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burnin=
g
> memory / state / etc.
>
> This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this documen=
t
> seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in the
> Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explanati=
on
> that I'm mistaken :-)).
>
> --------------------
>
> [jorge] we=E2=80=99re happy to add any other explanations in the security=
 section,
> however I thought your concern could have been addressed by this existing
> sentence:
>
>    =E2=80=9CIn addition, this document adds pieces of information that im=
pact on
>
>    the way ARP/ND entries are installed in ARP/ND and/or proxy-ARP/ND
>
>    tables, and therefore the resolution protocols for IPv4 and IPv6
>
>    addresses.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Also, can you please clarify what you mean by this?:
>
> =E2=80=9Cthis gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exhaust
> state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states
> (make
> up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burnin=
g
> memory / state / etc.=E2=80=9D
>
> Note that the new flags come in an extended community, which is not part
> of the route key, hence receiving multiple combinations of flags with the
> same IP->MAC information will not create new state, but update the existi=
ng
> one. As an example, if a PE receives IP1->MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0) and later
> IP1->MAC1(R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will not create additional state but will =
update
> the entry with the latest information.
>

Yes, multiple combinations of flags with the same IP->MAC will just result
in updates, but let's pretend I'm sitting on a network at work, my IP
address is 172.16.0.10/12 and my MAC address is 00:11:22:33:44:55. I've
decided I want the rest of the day off to go watch the cricket match, and
so it would be *just great* if the network were to go down....

I generate an ARP request for 172.16.0.11, and then immediately reply to my
own ARP with a MAC address of 00:11:22:33:44:56. I then generate an ARP
request for 172.16.0.12, and immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC
address of 00:11:22:33:44:57, etc. (This is a trivial ARP flooding attack -
https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threat-encyclopedia/archive/security-ad=
visories/arp%20flooding%20attack.
Variations include using the same IP and different MACs, or the same MAC
and different IPs.)

On a "normal" (non-VPN) system, this is only slightly painful (everything
is local, you can purge old IP->MAC entries easily, and the worst case
failure is the single router that you are behind). In a (L2-style) VPN this
needs to be propagated, and each new ARP entry requires a new announcement,
all devices need to do $something, and the failure domain is all of the
devices participating.



> Let me know if I=E2=80=99m missing your point please, and if so it would =
be great
> if you can suggest some text for the security section.
>

I don't really have any suggested text, other than perhaps a warning that
implementations should pay attention to this. Actually I'm not sure what
the least painful response is...

W



> --------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> I also support EK & Rob's DISCUSSes
>
> [jorge] we think we addressed their discusses=E2=80=A6 but obviously they=
 (and
> you) can let us know if it is not the case.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and eas=
y
> to
> understand - thank you for writing it...
>
> [jorge] thank you for your kind words!
>
>
>
>
>

--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--000000000000a96b3505b1654f0f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Rabad=
an, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jorge.rabadan@no=
kia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_6739455150131960216WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Warren,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you for reviewing!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Please see some comments in-line and let us know if we still need to add =
information to the security section.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thx<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:36pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Warren Kumari via Datatracker &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-bess=
-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto=
:bess@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:b=
ess@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Noki=
a - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
tthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Warren Kumari&#39;s Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:36pt">
Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na=
-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:36pt">
<br>
<br>
This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertisements. =
It<br>
seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exha=
ust<br>
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make<br>
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning<=
br>
memory / state / etc.<br>
<br>
This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this document<=
br>
seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in the<br=
>
Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explanation=
<br>
that I&#39;m mistaken :-)).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">--------------------<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] we=E2=80=99re happy to add any other=
 explanations in the security section, however I thought your concern could=
 have been addressed by this existing sentence:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIn addition, this document=
 adds pieces of information that impact on<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 the way ARP/ND entries are installe=
d in ARP/ND and/or proxy-ARP/ND<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 tables, and therefore the resolutio=
n protocols for IPv4 and IPv6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 addresses.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Also, can you please clarify what you mean b=
y this?:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=E2=80=9Cthis gives a DoS-style attacker mor=
e opportunities to exhaust<br>
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make<br>
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning<=
br>
memory / state / etc.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Note that the new flags come in an extended =
community, which is not part of the route key, hence receiving multiple com=
binations of flags with the same IP-&gt;MAC
 information will not create new state, but update the existing one. As an =
example, if a PE receives IP1-&gt;MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0) and later IP1-&gt;MAC1(=
R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will not create additional state but will update the e=
ntry with the latest information. </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verd=
ana,sans-serif">Yes, multiple combinations of flags with the same IP-&gt;MA=
C will just result in updates, but let&#39;s pretend I&#39;m sitting on a n=
etwork at work, my IP address is <a href=3D"http://172.16.0.10/12">172.16.0=
.10/12</a> and my MAC address is 00:11:22:33:44:55. I&#39;ve decided I want=
 the rest of the day off to go watch the cricket match, and so it would be =
*just great* if the network were to go down....</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I generate an ARP requ=
est for 172.16.0.11, and then immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC ad=
dress of=C2=A000:11:22:33:44:56. I then generate an ARP request for 172.16.=
0.12, and immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC address of=C2=A000:11:=
22:33:44:57, etc. (This is a trivial ARP flooding attack -=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threat-encyclopedia/archive/security-ad=
visories/arp%20flooding%20attack">https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threa=
t-encyclopedia/archive/security-advisories/arp%20flooding%20attack</a>. Var=
iations include using the same IP and different MACs, or the same MAC and d=
ifferent IPs.)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verda=
na,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
verdana,sans-serif">On a &quot;normal&quot; (non-VPN) system, this is only =
slightly=C2=A0painful (everything is local, you can purge old IP-&gt;MAC en=
tries easily, and the worst case failure is the single router that you are =
behind). In a (L2-style) VPN this needs to be propagated, and each new ARP =
entry requires a new announcement, all devices need to do $something, and t=
he failure domain is all of the devices participating.=C2=A0</div></div><di=
v><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"=
gmail-m_6739455150131960216WordSection1"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consola=
s">Let me know
 if I=E2=80=99m missing your point please, and if so it would be great if y=
ou can suggest some text for the security section.</span></p></div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I don&#39;t really have any suggested text,=
 other than perhaps a warning that implementations=C2=A0should pay attentio=
n to this. Actually I&#39;m not sure what the least painful response is...<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-se=
rif">W</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div=
 class=3D"gmail-m_6739455150131960216WordSection1"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:Consolas"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">--------------------<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:36pt">
<br>
<br>
I also support EK &amp; Rob&#39;s DISCUSSes<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] we think we addressed their discusse=
s=E2=80=A6 but obviously they (and you) can let us know if it is not the ca=
se.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:36pt">
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and easy =
to<br>
understand - thank you for writing it...<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] thank you for your kind words!<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:36pt">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div></div>

--000000000000a96b3505b1654f0f--


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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 17:16:45 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [bess] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Jorge,

Thanks for all the explanations and updates; there are just three points
remaining that I have any comment on (inline).

On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 10:56:35AM +0000, Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) wrote:
> Hi Bejamin,
> 
> Thanks for reviewing!
> 
> Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].
> 
> Thanks.
> Jorge
> 
> 
> From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:08 AM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
> Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with COMMENT)
> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: No Objection
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Should we say anything about how the ARP/ND Extended Community is
> ignored in the absence of a sibling MAC/IP Advertisement Extended
> Community?
> [jorge] sure, I added:
> “Only one EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community is expected to be received along with an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route. If more than one ARP/ND Extended Community is received, the PE MUST consider only the first one on the list for processing purposes and MUST NOT propagate the rest of the ARP/ND Extended Communities.”
> 
> 
> Should we remind the reader how the recipient knows that a given ARP/ND
> Extended Community is associated to the coresponding MAC/IP
> Advertisement Extended Community?
> [jorge] the above text should clarify how to make that association if there are multiple ARP/ND ext communities in the same update as the route. If there is only one, there should not be any ambiguity. Let me know if I’m missing something please.
> 
> 
> There seems to be some latent risk in defining an "immutable" flag with
> no defined way of clearing or unsetting it (e.g., having it time out).
> We should either document what the operator should do when a formerly
> immutable mapping needs to change or document the risk in the security
> considerations section.  (This is, I think, related to Rob's Discuss.)
> [jorge] good point, same as Rob’s discuss. I replied to his discuss and added this sentence:
> “Note that if a configured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.”
> Is that ok?
> 
> 
> Section 1
> 
>    procedure.  However, the information conveyed in the EVPN MAC/IP
>    Advertisement route may not be enough for the remote PE to reply to
>    local ARP or ND requests.  For example, if a PE learns an IPv6->MAC
> 
> This makes it sound like we're rectifying a deficiency of the core spec,
> and therefore might want to have an Updates: (or rather, "see also")
> relationship to it.
> [jorge] the current plan as discussed with our AD (Martin) is to make this draft normative for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd, and mark the latter as “updates RFC7432”.
> 
> 
>    Advertisement routes.  Similarly, other information relevant to the
>    host advertised in the MAC/IP Advertisement route may be needed.
> 
> (editorial) either we know what this "other information" is and could
> list it explicitly (or by section reference), or we don't, and the
> solution is incomplete.
> [jorge] good point, thanks. The idea behind is that the other non-assigned flags can be used in the future to indicate information relevant to the host identified by the IP->MAC pair. Since that is not really needed, I removed that sentence.
> 
> 
> Section 1.1
> 
>    Proxy-ARP/ND: function on the EVPN PEs by which received Address
>    Resolution Protocol (ARP) Requests or Neighbor Solicitation (NS)
>    messages are replied locally by the PE, without the need to flood the
> 
> nit: "replied to"
> [jorge] fixed, thanks.
> 
> 
> Section 2
> 
> Should we explicitly say that this is a transitive extended community?
> [jorge] ok, added:
> “This document defines a transitive EVPN Extended Community …”
> 
> 
>    O - Override Flag (corresponds to Bit 22 of the Extended Community)
>    Bit 6 of the Flags field is defined as the "Override Flag".  An
>    egress PE will normally advertise IPv6->MAC pairs with the O Flag
>    set, and only when IPv6 "anycast" is enabled in the BD or interface,
>    the PE will send an IPv6->MAC pair with the O Flag = 0.  The ingress
>    PE will install the ND entry with the received O Flag and will use
>    this information when replying to a Neighbor Solicitation for the
>    IPv6 address.  [...]
> 
> 
> I'm not 100% sure I understand what this is saying.
> My current understanding is that: at present (in the absence of this
> extended community), a PE has to use heuristics to set the O flag in NA
> messages, with the heuristic being "normally set the O flag, but when
> the BD/interface has anycast enabled, clear the O flag".  The new
> behavior when the information in this extended community is available,
> is then to "always send the value received from the extended community".
> [jorge] yes, I added this to clarify:
> “..and will always use this O Flag value when replying to a Neighbor Solicitation for the IPv6 address…”
> 
> 
> However, if my understanding (above) is correct, that doesn't seem quite
> right, since it's generally not safe to set the O flag in such an
> "anycast" scenario.  Am I missing something?
> [jorge] sorry, not sure if I understand... suppose you have two hosts connected to the same broadcast domain, h1 and h2. If h2 sends a NS message, h1 can reply with O=1 or O=0. If that BD is now EVPN enabled, the NS and NA messages are translated into MAC/IP routes with the flags in the ext community. To me both cases are equally safe or unsafe? Let me know if I’m missing something please.

It is probably me who is missing something.
I was not sure what was different between the case of "anycast with no
EVPN" and "anycast with EVPN".  I guess, in the former case the PE is
responsible for figuring out what value to put in the O flag, and thus is
responsible if anything goes wrong, but in the latter case the PE is just
deferring to the other node, so if a "bad" value is put in the O flag this
is due to an error at a different layer -- the PE (and, thus, the new
behavior in this document) does not need to take particular care for
whether anycast is enabled.

> 
>    Community) is a configured ARP/ND entry.  The IP address in the EVPN
>    MAC/IP Advertisement route can only be bound together with the MAC
>    address specified in the same route.
> 
> nit: I'm not sure I understand what "can only be bound together with"
> means here.  (What would the other option be?)
> [jorge] I added this to clarify:
> “In this case, the IP address in the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route can only be bound together with the MAC address specified in the same route, and not with any other MAC addresses received in a different route without the I Flag set.”
> 
> 
> Section 3.1
> 
> Just to check my understanding: the dynamic learning here only applies
> to NA messages received from the CE directly, not those received from
> other EVPN routers?  (Do we need to say that explicitly?)
> [jorge] correct, however not sure we need to say it explicitly. Other specs such as draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd specify all that.
> 
> 
>    o  This Extended Community does not change the procedures described
>       in [RFC7432].  Specifically the procedures for advertising the MAC
>       Mobility Extended Community along with the MAC/IP Advertisement
>       route are not changed.
> 
> (side note) I'm not entirely sure how one might expect the MAC Mobility
> processing to have changed as a result of the addition of the ARP/ND
> Extended Community, but there doesn't seem to be any real harm in
> mentioning it like this.
> [jorge] it’s just an extra clarification just in case the reader is wondering. I think it’s worth mentioning.
> 
> 
> Section 3.2
> 
>       *  If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route contains an IPv6 address
>          and the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, the PE MUST add the R
>          and O Flags to the ND entry in the ND or proxy-ND table and use
>          that information in Neighbor Advertisements when replying to a
>          Solicitation for the IPv6 address.
> 
> editorial: "add the R and O Flags" could sound like they are always set
> to 1; perhaps "propagate the value of the R and O flags from the ARP/ND
> Extended Community to the ND entry"?
> [jorge] good point, I changed it to:
> “If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route contains an IPv6 address and the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, the PE MUST add the R and O Flag values to the ND entry in the ND or proxy-ND table, and propagate the value of the R and O flags from the ARP/ND Extended Community to the Neighbor Advertisements when replying to a Solicitation for the IPv6 address.”
> 
> 
>          move as well.  Even so, if an update for the same IP1->MAC1
>          immutable and static, is received from a different PE, one of
>          the two routes will be selected, as in the [RFC7432] case where
>          two MAC/IP routes with Static bit are received for the same MAC
>          from different PEs.
> 
> I couldn't find much discussion of this scenario in RFC 7432 by
> searching for "static" or "sticky"; could you help point me in the right
> direction?
> [jorge] the static flag is defined in RFC7432, section 15.2. It does not explain explicitly how the selection works for two MAC/IP routes with the same MAC (different RD) from two different PEs, it’s up to the implementation. The point here is that implementations should do the same for the I flag.

Okay, I think maybe I understand what is happening here (and, to be honest,
the 7432 reference makes more sense to me now, on the second reading).  For
both sticky MAC addresses and for ARP/ND routes with the I flag, if an
implementation gets two different ones, it has to pick one to use.  In 7432
that is left implicit, but here we say it explicitly (which is good).  When
in such a position of needing to pick one, the PE has to alert the operator
that something weird is going on -- this is what the 7432 reference is
saying.  But in some sense these are two independent actions, they just
occur in the same situation.  So perhaps it is more clear to say "... one
of the two routes will be selected.  This case is analogous to the
[RFC7432] case when two MAC/IP routes with the Static bit set are received,
and the PE likewise MUST alert the operator of such a situation."?

> 
>    destination to PE2.  If for some reason, PE3 originates an EVPN MAC/
>    IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 (even with a higher sequence
>    number), then the EVPN PEs in the BD SHOULD NOT update their
>    IP1->MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 is bound to MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD
>    still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs).  This is considered a
>    misconfiguration in PE3.
> 
> I don't really understand the motivation for SHOULD NOT, here.  It seems
> like a PE would need to violate some other part of the spec in order to
> do so, so just "will not" would be workable.
> (I'm also left to assume that the route from PE3 sets I=0, which might
> be worth making explicit.)
> [jorge] good one, changed it to:
> “If for some reason, PE3 originates an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 with I=0 (even with a higher sequence number), then the EVPN PEs in the BD will not update their IP1->MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 is bound to MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs). This is considered a misconfiguration in PE3.”
> 
> 
>    The use of the Flag I=1 assumes that a given IP is always bound to
>    the same MAC address, and therefore the mobility procedures described
>    in [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility] for "Host IP move to a
>    new MAC" will not apply.
> 
> Do we want to say anything about how things should behave if the
> assumption is violated?
> [jorge] probably not, the use of the I flag in the spec means an IP cannot move to a new MAC. Maybe we will need to make it also explicit in I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility.
> 
> 
> Section 4
> 
> It seems like this mechanism (or rather, RFC 7432's MAC/IP
> Advertisement) doesn't really affect the spoofability of ND; the same
> information (actually the same, now that this mechanism exists to send
> the R/O flags) is being conveyed just over a different protocol, and
> DAD/mobility should still work the same way.  There's an extra
> translation step at the PEs the introduces an opportunity for
> translation errors but that's not very noteworthy.
> 
> The I flag is somewhat different, as I mentioned at the top of my
> comments.
> 
>    Similarly, the receiver of a NA message with the wrong R flag, may
>    update its Default Router List incorrectly adding or removing an
>    entry.
> 
> I suggest adding at the end of the sentence ", which could for example
> lead to sending traffic to a node that is not a router, causing the
> traffic to be dropped".
> [jorge] added, thank you
> 
> 
> Section 5
> 
> Given the email discussion regarding the use of flag position 5, should
> a note be left in the registry about that informal usage?
> [jorge] yes, but this document should not say anything, right? Let me know.

This document is creating the registry, so it is a natural time to place a
comment in the registry.  It is not the only way that such a note could be
added, but since the registration procedure is Standards Action it may be
prudent to make such a directive to IANA while we have a proposed standard
document (this one) already in the works.

Thanks again,

Ben


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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, Zhaohui Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 04:06:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] Erik Kline's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Operational Aspects of Proxy-ARP/ND in EVPN Networks
        Authors         : Jorge Rabadan
                          Senthil Sathappan
                          Kiran Nagaraj
                          Greg Hankins
                          Thomas King
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2020-10-12

Abstract:
   The EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route can optionally carry IPv4 and
   IPv6 addresses associated with a MAC address.  Remote PEs importing
   those routes in the same Broadcast Domain (BD) can use this
   information to reply locally (act as proxy) to IPv4 ARP requests and
   IPv6 Neighbor Solicitation messages (or 'unicast-forward' them to the
   owner of the MAC) and reduce/suppress the flooding produced by the
   Address Resolution procedure.  This EVPN capability is extremely
   useful in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs) and Data Centers (DCs) with
   large BDs, where the amount of ARP/ND flooded traffic causes issues
   on connected routers and CEs.  This document describes the EVPN
   Proxy-ARP/ND function augmented by the capability of the ARP/ND
   Extended Community, which together help IXPs and other operators to
   deal with the issues derived from Address Resolution in large BDs.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Propagation of ARP/ND Flags in EVPN
        Authors         : Jorge Rabadan
                          Senthil Sathappan
                          Kiran Nagaraj
                          Wen Lin
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-08.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2020-10-12

Abstract:
   This document defines an Extended Community that is advertised along
   with an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route and carries information
   relevant to the ARP/ND resolution, so that an EVPN PE implementing a
   proxy-ARP/ND or ARP/ND (on IRB interfaces) function can reply to ARP
   Requests or Neighbor Solicitations with the correct information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-08
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Warren,

OK, thanks for explaining.

Added the following text in rev 08. Let me know if it satisfies your concer=
n. I understand it is a general concern about proxy-arp/nd in EVPN networks=
 and not about this specific document.


The same security considerations described in [RFC7432] apply to this
   document.  In general, it is worth noting that the use of Proxy ARP/
   ND in EVPN BDs may add some security risks.  Attackers can make use
   of ARP/ND messages to create state in all the PEs attached to the
   same BD as the attacker and exhaust resources in those PEs.
   Therefore, additional security mechanisms may be needed.  Some
   examples of such additional security mechanisms are e.g., limit the
   number of Proxy ARP/ND entries per-BD/per-port, or monitor closely
   the rate at which hosts create dynamic Proxy-ARP/ND entries.


Thank you!
Jorge

From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 3:39 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft=
-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.=
org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.b=
occi@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS and COMMENT)


On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <j=
orge.rabadan@nokia.com<mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>> wrote:
Hi Warren,

Thank you for reviewing!

Please see some comments in-line and let us know if we still need to add in=
formation to the security section.

Thx
Jorge

From: Warren Kumari via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.o=
rg>>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>>
Subject: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...


This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertisements. =
It
seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exha=
ust
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning
memory / state / etc.

This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this document
seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in the
Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explanation
that I'm mistaken :-)).
--------------------
[jorge] we=92re happy to add any other explanations in the security section=
, however I thought your concern could have been addressed by this existing=
 sentence:
   =93In addition, this document adds pieces of information that impact on
   the way ARP/ND entries are installed in ARP/ND and/or proxy-ARP/ND
   tables, and therefore the resolution protocols for IPv4 and IPv6
   addresses.=94

Also, can you please clarify what you mean by this?:
=93this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exhaust
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning
memory / state / etc.=94
Note that the new flags come in an extended community, which is not part of=
 the route key, hence receiving multiple combinations of flags with the sam=
e IP->MAC information will not create new state, but update the existing on=
e. As an example, if a PE receives IP1->MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0) and later IP1->MA=
C1(R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will not create additional state but will update th=
e entry with the latest information.

Yes, multiple combinations of flags with the same IP->MAC will just result =
in updates, but let's pretend I'm sitting on a network at work, my IP addre=
ss is 172.16.0.10/12<http://172.16.0.10/12> and my MAC address is 00:11:22:=
33:44:55. I've decided I want the rest of the day off to go watch the crick=
et match, and so it would be *just great* if the network were to go down...=
.

I generate an ARP request for 172.16.0.11, and then immediately reply to my=
 own ARP with a MAC address of 00:11:22:33:44:56. I then generate an ARP re=
quest for 172.16.0.12, and immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC addre=
ss of 00:11:22:33:44:57, etc. (This is a trivial ARP flooding attack - http=
s://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threat-encyclopedia/archive/security-adviso=
ries/arp%20flooding%20attack. Variations include using the same IP and diff=
erent MACs, or the same MAC and different IPs.)

On a "normal" (non-VPN) system, this is only slightly painful (everything i=
s local, you can purge old IP->MAC entries easily, and the worst case failu=
re is the single router that you are behind). In a (L2-style) VPN this need=
s to be propagated, and each new ARP entry requires a new announcement, all=
 devices need to do $something, and the failure domain is all of the device=
s participating.


Let me know if I=92m missing your point please, and if so it would be great=
 if you can suggest some text for the security section.

I don't really have any suggested text, other than perhaps a warning that i=
mplementations should pay attention to this. Actually I'm not sure what the=
 least painful response is...

W


--------------------



I also support EK & Rob's DISCUSSes
[jorge] we think we addressed their discusses=85 but obviously they (and yo=
u) can let us know if it is not the case.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and easy =
to
understand - thank you for writing it...
[jorge] thank you for your kind words!




--
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in=
 the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr=
et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
   ---maf

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Warren,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">OK, thanks for explaining.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Added the following text in rev 08. Let me know if it satisfies your conc=
ern. I understand it is a general concern about proxy-arp/nd in EVPN networ=
ks and not about this specific document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">The same security considerations described in =
[RFC7432] apply to this<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; document.&nbsp; In general, it is=
 worth noting that the use of Proxy ARP/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; ND in EVPN BDs may add some secur=
ity risks.&nbsp; Attackers can make use<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; of ARP/ND messages to create stat=
e in all the PEs attached to the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; same BD as the attacker and exhau=
st resources in those PEs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Therefore, additional security me=
chanisms may be needed.&nbsp; Some<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; examples of such additional secur=
ity mechanisms are e.g., limit the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; number of Proxy ARP/ND entries pe=
r-BD/per-port, or monitor closely<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; the rate at which hosts create dy=
namic Proxy-ARP/ND entries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Warren Kumari &lt;warren@kumari.net&gt;<=
br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 3:39 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@noki=
a.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ie=
tf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org=
 &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, bess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, =
Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at =
7:38 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jor=
ge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Warren,</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you for reviewi=
ng!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Please see some comme=
nts in-line and let us know if we still need to add information to the secu=
rity section.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thx</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Jorge</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Warren Kumari via Datatracker &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br=
>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-bess=
-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess-chairs@ietf.=
org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess-=
chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Boc=
ci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew
 (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:72.0pt">
Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na=
-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:72.0pt">
<br>
<br>
This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertisements. =
It<br>
seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exha=
ust<br>
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make<br>
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning<=
br>
memory / state / etc.<br>
<br>
This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this document<=
br>
seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in the<br=
>
Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explanation=
<br>
that I'm mistaken :-)).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">--------------------<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] we=92re happy=
 to add any other explanations in the security section, however I thought y=
our concern could have been addressed by this existing sentence:</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">&nbsp;&nbsp; =93In addition, this document adds pieces of information=
 that impact on</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">&nbsp;&nbsp; the way ARP/ND entries are installed in ARP/ND and/or pr=
oxy-ARP/ND</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">&nbsp;&nbsp; tables, and therefore the resolution protocols for IPv4 =
and IPv6</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack">&nbsp;&nbsp; addresses.=94
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Also, can you please =
clarify what you mean by this?:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93this gives a DoS-s=
tyle attacker more opportunities to exhaust<br>
state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states (=
make<br>
up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burning<=
br>
memory / state / etc.=94</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Note that the new fla=
gs come in an extended community, which is not part of the route key, hence=
 receiving multiple combinations of flags with the same IP-&gt;MAC informat=
ion will not create new state, but update
 the existing one. As an example, if a PE receives IP1-&gt;MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0=
) and later IP1-&gt;MAC1(R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will not create additional st=
ate but will update the entry with the latest information.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif">Yes, multiple combinations of flags wit=
h the same IP-&gt;MAC will just result in updates, but let's pretend I'm si=
tting on a network at work, my IP address is
<a href=3D"http://172.16.0.10/12">172.16.0.10/12</a> and my MAC address is =
00:11:22:33:44:55. I've decided I want the rest of the day off to go watch =
the cricket match, and so it would be *just great* if the network were to g=
o down....<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif">I generate an ARP request for 172.16.0.=
11, and then immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC address of&nbsp;00:=
11:22:33:44:56. I then generate an ARP request for 172.16.0.12,
 and immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC address of&nbsp;00:11:22:33=
:44:57, etc. (This is a trivial ARP flooding attack -&nbsp;<a href=3D"https=
://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threat-encyclopedia/archive/security-advisor=
ies/arp%20flooding%20attack">https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threat-enc=
yclopedia/archive/security-advisories/arp%20flooding%20attack</a>.
 Variations include using the same IP and different MACs, or the same MAC a=
nd different IPs.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif">On a &quot;normal&quot; (non-VPN) syste=
m, this is only slightly&nbsp;painful (everything is local, you can purge o=
ld IP-&gt;MAC entries easily, and the worst case failure is the single
 router that you are behind). In a (L2-style) VPN this needs to be propagat=
ed, and each new ARP entry requires a new announcement, all devices need to=
 do $something, and the failure domain is all of the devices participating.=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Let me know if I=92m =
missing your point please, and if so it would be great if you can suggest s=
ome text for the security section.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif">I don't really have any suggested text,=
 other than perhaps a warning that implementations&nbsp;should pay attentio=
n to this. Actually I'm not sure what the least painful
 response is...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Verdana&quot;,sans-serif">W<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">--------------------<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:72.0pt">
<br>
<br>
I also support EK &amp; Rob's DISCUSSes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] we think we a=
ddressed their discusses=85 but obviously they (and you) can let us know if=
 it is not the case.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:72.0pt">
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and easy =
to<br>
understand - thank you for writing it...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] thank you for=
 your kind words!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t;margin-left:72.0pt">
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">I don't think the execu=
tion is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regr=
et at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;---maf<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [bess] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with COMMENT)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
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Hi Benjamin,

A new revision has been published with yours and Warren=92s suggestions (re=
v 08).
Please see in-line with [jorge2].

Thank you!
Jorge

From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 2:17 AM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft=
-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.=
org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.b=
occi@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags=
-06: (with COMMENT)
Hi Jorge,

Thanks for all the explanations and updates; there are just three points
remaining that I have any comment on (inline).

On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 10:56:35AM +0000, Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mounta=
in View) wrote:
> Hi Bejamin,
>
> Thanks for reviewing!
>
> Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].
>
> Thanks.
> Jorge
>
>
> From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:08 AM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags=
@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bes=
s@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, =
Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
> Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-0=
6: (with COMMENT)
> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Should we say anything about how the ARP/ND Extended Community is
> ignored in the absence of a sibling MAC/IP Advertisement Extended
> Community?
> [jorge] sure, I added:
> =93Only one EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community is expected to be received alo=
ng with an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route. If more than one ARP/ND Extende=
d Community is received, the PE MUST consider only the first one on the lis=
t for processing purposes and MUST NOT propagate the rest of the ARP/ND Ext=
ended Communities.=94
>
>
> Should we remind the reader how the recipient knows that a given ARP/ND
> Extended Community is associated to the coresponding MAC/IP
> Advertisement Extended Community?
> [jorge] the above text should clarify how to make that association if the=
re are multiple ARP/ND ext communities in the same update as the route. If =
there is only one, there should not be any ambiguity. Let me know if I=92m =
missing something please.
>
>
> There seems to be some latent risk in defining an "immutable" flag with
> no defined way of clearing or unsetting it (e.g., having it time out).
> We should either document what the operator should do when a formerly
> immutable mapping needs to change or document the risk in the security
> considerations section.  (This is, I think, related to Rob's Discuss.)
> [jorge] good point, same as Rob=92s discuss. I replied to his discuss and=
 added this sentence:
> =93Note that if a configured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC addr=
ess, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 wil=
l be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is =
advertised.=94
> Is that ok?
>
>
> Section 1
>
>    procedure.  However, the information conveyed in the EVPN MAC/IP
>    Advertisement route may not be enough for the remote PE to reply to
>    local ARP or ND requests.  For example, if a PE learns an IPv6->MAC
>
> This makes it sound like we're rectifying a deficiency of the core spec,
> and therefore might want to have an Updates: (or rather, "see also")
> relationship to it.
> [jorge] the current plan as discussed with our AD (Martin) is to make thi=
s draft normative for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd, and mark the latte=
r as =93updates RFC7432=94.
>
>
>    Advertisement routes.  Similarly, other information relevant to the
>    host advertised in the MAC/IP Advertisement route may be needed.
>
> (editorial) either we know what this "other information" is and could
> list it explicitly (or by section reference), or we don't, and the
> solution is incomplete.
> [jorge] good point, thanks. The idea behind is that the other non-assigne=
d flags can be used in the future to indicate information relevant to the h=
ost identified by the IP->MAC pair. Since that is not really needed, I remo=
ved that sentence.
>
>
> Section 1.1
>
>    Proxy-ARP/ND: function on the EVPN PEs by which received Address
>    Resolution Protocol (ARP) Requests or Neighbor Solicitation (NS)
>    messages are replied locally by the PE, without the need to flood the
>
> nit: "replied to"
> [jorge] fixed, thanks.
>
>
> Section 2
>
> Should we explicitly say that this is a transitive extended community?
> [jorge] ok, added:
> =93This document defines a transitive EVPN Extended Community =85=94
>
>
>    O - Override Flag (corresponds to Bit 22 of the Extended Community)
>    Bit 6 of the Flags field is defined as the "Override Flag".  An
>    egress PE will normally advertise IPv6->MAC pairs with the O Flag
>    set, and only when IPv6 "anycast" is enabled in the BD or interface,
>    the PE will send an IPv6->MAC pair with the O Flag =3D 0.  The ingress
>    PE will install the ND entry with the received O Flag and will use
>    this information when replying to a Neighbor Solicitation for the
>    IPv6 address.  [...]
>
>
> I'm not 100% sure I understand what this is saying.
> My current understanding is that: at present (in the absence of this
> extended community), a PE has to use heuristics to set the O flag in NA
> messages, with the heuristic being "normally set the O flag, but when
> the BD/interface has anycast enabled, clear the O flag".  The new
> behavior when the information in this extended community is available,
> is then to "always send the value received from the extended community".
> [jorge] yes, I added this to clarify:
> =93..and will always use this O Flag value when replying to a Neighbor So=
licitation for the IPv6 address=85=94
>
>
> However, if my understanding (above) is correct, that doesn't seem quite
> right, since it's generally not safe to set the O flag in such an
> "anycast" scenario.  Am I missing something?
> [jorge] sorry, not sure if I understand... suppose you have two hosts con=
nected to the same broadcast domain, h1 and h2. If h2 sends a NS message, h=
1 can reply with O=3D1 or O=3D0. If that BD is now EVPN enabled, the NS and=
 NA messages are translated into MAC/IP routes with the flags in the ext co=
mmunity. To me both cases are equally safe or unsafe? Let me know if I=92m =
missing something please.

It is probably me who is missing something.
I was not sure what was different between the case of "anycast with no
EVPN" and "anycast with EVPN".  I guess, in the former case the PE is
responsible for figuring out what value to put in the O flag, and thus is
responsible if anything goes wrong, but in the latter case the PE is just
deferring to the other node, so if a "bad" value is put in the O flag this
is due to an error at a different layer -- the PE (and, thus, the new
behavior in this document) does not need to take particular care for
whether anycast is enabled.
[jorge2] Yes, that=92s what I think.


>
>    Community) is a configured ARP/ND entry.  The IP address in the EVPN
>    MAC/IP Advertisement route can only be bound together with the MAC
>    address specified in the same route.
>
> nit: I'm not sure I understand what "can only be bound together with"
> means here.  (What would the other option be?)
> [jorge] I added this to clarify:
> =93In this case, the IP address in the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route ca=
n only be bound together with the MAC address specified in the same route, =
and not with any other MAC addresses received in a different route without =
the I Flag set.=94
>
>
> Section 3.1
>
> Just to check my understanding: the dynamic learning here only applies
> to NA messages received from the CE directly, not those received from
> other EVPN routers?  (Do we need to say that explicitly?)
> [jorge] correct, however not sure we need to say it explicitly. Other spe=
cs such as draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd specify all that.
>
>
>    o  This Extended Community does not change the procedures described
>       in [RFC7432].  Specifically the procedures for advertising the MAC
>       Mobility Extended Community along with the MAC/IP Advertisement
>       route are not changed.
>
> (side note) I'm not entirely sure how one might expect the MAC Mobility
> processing to have changed as a result of the addition of the ARP/ND
> Extended Community, but there doesn't seem to be any real harm in
> mentioning it like this.
> [jorge] it=92s just an extra clarification just in case the reader is won=
dering. I think it=92s worth mentioning.
>
>
> Section 3.2
>
>       *  If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route contains an IPv6 address
>          and the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, the PE MUST add the R
>          and O Flags to the ND entry in the ND or proxy-ND table and use
>          that information in Neighbor Advertisements when replying to a
>          Solicitation for the IPv6 address.
>
> editorial: "add the R and O Flags" could sound like they are always set
> to 1; perhaps "propagate the value of the R and O flags from the ARP/ND
> Extended Community to the ND entry"?
> [jorge] good point, I changed it to:
> =93If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route contains an IPv6 address and th=
e EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, the PE MUST add the R and O Flag values t=
o the ND entry in the ND or proxy-ND table, and propagate the value of the =
R and O flags from the ARP/ND Extended Community to the Neighbor Advertisem=
ents when replying to a Solicitation for the IPv6 address.=94
>
>
>          move as well.  Even so, if an update for the same IP1->MAC1
>          immutable and static, is received from a different PE, one of
>          the two routes will be selected, as in the [RFC7432] case where
>          two MAC/IP routes with Static bit are received for the same MAC
>          from different PEs.
>
> I couldn't find much discussion of this scenario in RFC 7432 by
> searching for "static" or "sticky"; could you help point me in the right
> direction?
> [jorge] the static flag is defined in RFC7432, section 15.2. It does not =
explain explicitly how the selection works for two MAC/IP routes with the s=
ame MAC (different RD) from two different PEs, it=92s up to the implementat=
ion. The point here is that implementations should do the same for the I fl=
ag.

Okay, I think maybe I understand what is happening here (and, to be honest,
the 7432 reference makes more sense to me now, on the second reading).  For
both sticky MAC addresses and for ARP/ND routes with the I flag, if an
implementation gets two different ones, it has to pick one to use.  In 7432
that is left implicit, but here we say it explicitly (which is good).  When
in such a position of needing to pick one, the PE has to alert the operator
that something weird is going on -- this is what the 7432 reference is
saying.  But in some sense these are two independent actions, they just
occur in the same situation.  So perhaps it is more clear to say "... one
of the two routes will be selected.  This case is analogous to the
[RFC7432] case when two MAC/IP routes with the Static bit set are received,
and the PE likewise MUST alert the operator of such a situation."?
[jorge2] yes, good point thanks. I took your suggestion.


>
>    destination to PE2.  If for some reason, PE3 originates an EVPN MAC/
>    IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 (even with a higher sequence
>    number), then the EVPN PEs in the BD SHOULD NOT update their
>    IP1->MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 is bound to MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD
>    still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs).  This is considered a
>    misconfiguration in PE3.
>
> I don't really understand the motivation for SHOULD NOT, here.  It seems
> like a PE would need to violate some other part of the spec in order to
> do so, so just "will not" would be workable.
> (I'm also left to assume that the route from PE3 sets I=3D0, which might
> be worth making explicit.)
> [jorge] good one, changed it to:
> =93If for some reason, PE3 originates an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route =
for IP1->MAC2 with I=3D0 (even with a higher sequence number), then the EVP=
N PEs in the BD will not update their IP1->MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 =
is bound to MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs). This=
 is considered a misconfiguration in PE3.=94
>
>
>    The use of the Flag I=3D1 assumes that a given IP is always bound to
>    the same MAC address, and therefore the mobility procedures described
>    in [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility] for "Host IP move to a
>    new MAC" will not apply.
>
> Do we want to say anything about how things should behave if the
> assumption is violated?
> [jorge] probably not, the use of the I flag in the spec means an IP canno=
t move to a new MAC. Maybe we will need to make it also explicit in I-D.iet=
f-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility.
>
>
> Section 4
>
> It seems like this mechanism (or rather, RFC 7432's MAC/IP
> Advertisement) doesn't really affect the spoofability of ND; the same
> information (actually the same, now that this mechanism exists to send
> the R/O flags) is being conveyed just over a different protocol, and
> DAD/mobility should still work the same way.  There's an extra
> translation step at the PEs the introduces an opportunity for
> translation errors but that's not very noteworthy.
>
> The I flag is somewhat different, as I mentioned at the top of my
> comments.
>
>    Similarly, the receiver of a NA message with the wrong R flag, may
>    update its Default Router List incorrectly adding or removing an
>    entry.
>
> I suggest adding at the end of the sentence ", which could for example
> lead to sending traffic to a node that is not a router, causing the
> traffic to be dropped".
> [jorge] added, thank you
>
>
> Section 5
>
> Given the email discussion regarding the use of flag position 5, should
> a note be left in the registry about that informal usage?
> [jorge] yes, but this document should not say anything, right? Let me kno=
w.

This document is creating the registry, so it is a natural time to place a
comment in the registry.  It is not the only way that such a note could be
added, but since the registration procedure is Standards Action it may be
prudent to make such a directive to IANA while we have a proposed standard
document (this one) already in the works.
[jorge2] OK, sounds good to me. I added the following note in the IANA sect=
ion, let me know if this is good enough:


   Note that the Flag position 5 is left unassigned and not used in this

   specification since it was previously requested by

   [I-D.rbickhart-evpn-ip-mac-proxy-adv].



Thanks again,

Ben

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Benjamin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">A new revision has been published with yours and Warren=92s suggestions (=
rev 08).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Please see in-line with [jorge2].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Benjamin Kaduk &lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 2:17 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@noki=
a.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ie=
tf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org=
 &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, bess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, =
Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-n=
a-flags-06: (with COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Hi Jorge,<br>
<br>
Thanks for all the explanations and updates; there are just three points<br=
>
remaining that I have any comment on (inline).<br>
<br>
On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 10:56:35AM +0000, Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mounta=
in View) wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Bejamin,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks for reviewing!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt; Jorge<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker &lt;noreply@ietf.org&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:08 AM<br>
&gt; To: The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na=
-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, bes=
s@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.b=
occi@nokia.com&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com=
&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with COMMENT)<br>
&gt; Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: No Objection<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<=
br>
&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi=
s<br>
&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss=
-criteria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br=
>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-fl=
ags/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Should we say anything about how the ARP/ND Extended Community is<br>
&gt; ignored in the absence of a sibling MAC/IP Advertisement Extended<br>
&gt; Community?<br>
&gt; [jorge] sure, I added:<br>
&gt; =93Only one EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community is expected to be received =
along with an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route. If more than one ARP/ND Exte=
nded Community is received, the PE MUST consider only the first one on the =
list for processing purposes and MUST
 NOT propagate the rest of the ARP/ND Extended Communities.=94<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Should we remind the reader how the recipient knows that a given ARP/N=
D<br>
&gt; Extended Community is associated to the coresponding MAC/IP<br>
&gt; Advertisement Extended Community?<br>
&gt; [jorge] the above text should clarify how to make that association if =
there are multiple ARP/ND ext communities in the same update as the route. =
If there is only one, there should not be any ambiguity. Let me know if I=
=92m missing something please.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There seems to be some latent risk in defining an &quot;immutable&quot=
; flag with<br>
&gt; no defined way of clearing or unsetting it (e.g., having it time out).=
<br>
&gt; We should either document what the operator should do when a formerly<=
br>
&gt; immutable mapping needs to change or document the risk in the security=
<br>
&gt; considerations section.&nbsp; (This is, I think, related to Rob's Disc=
uss.)<br>
&gt; [jorge] good point, same as Rob=92s discuss. I replied to his discuss =
and added this sentence:<br>
&gt; =93Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MA=
C address, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-=
&gt;MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for I=
P1-&gt;MAC2 is advertised.=94<br>
&gt; Is that ok?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; procedure.&nbsp; However, the information conveyed i=
n the EVPN MAC/IP<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Advertisement route may not be enough for the remote=
 PE to reply to<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; local ARP or ND requests.&nbsp; For example, if a PE=
 learns an IPv6-&gt;MAC<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This makes it sound like we're rectifying a deficiency of the core spe=
c,<br>
&gt; and therefore might want to have an Updates: (or rather, &quot;see als=
o&quot;)<br>
&gt; relationship to it.<br>
&gt; [jorge] the current plan as discussed with our AD (Martin) is to make =
this draft normative for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd, and mark the la=
tter as =93updates RFC7432=94.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Advertisement routes.&nbsp; Similarly, other informa=
tion relevant to the<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; host advertised in the MAC/IP Advertisement route ma=
y be needed.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (editorial) either we know what this &quot;other information&quot; is =
and could<br>
&gt; list it explicitly (or by section reference), or we don't, and the<br>
&gt; solution is incomplete.<br>
&gt; [jorge] good point, thanks. The idea behind is that the other non-assi=
gned flags can be used in the future to indicate information relevant to th=
e host identified by the IP-&gt;MAC pair. Since that is not really needed, =
I removed that sentence.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 1.1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Proxy-ARP/ND: function on the EVPN PEs by which rece=
ived Address<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Resolution Protocol (ARP) Requests or Neighbor Solic=
itation (NS)<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; messages are replied locally by the PE, without the =
need to flood the<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; nit: &quot;replied to&quot;<br>
&gt; [jorge] fixed, thanks.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 2<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Should we explicitly say that this is a transitive extended community?=
<br>
&gt; [jorge] ok, added:<br>
&gt; =93This document defines a transitive EVPN Extended Community =85=94<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; O - Override Flag (corresponds to Bit 22 of the Exte=
nded Community)<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bit 6 of the Flags field is defined as the &quot;Ove=
rride Flag&quot;.&nbsp; An<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; egress PE will normally advertise IPv6-&gt;MAC pairs=
 with the O Flag<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; set, and only when IPv6 &quot;anycast&quot; is enabl=
ed in the BD or interface,<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the PE will send an IPv6-&gt;MAC pair with the O Fla=
g =3D 0.&nbsp; The ingress<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PE will install the ND entry with the received O Fla=
g and will use<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; this information when replying to a Neighbor Solicit=
ation for the<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IPv6 address.&nbsp; [...]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I'm not 100% sure I understand what this is saying.<br>
&gt; My current understanding is that: at present (in the absence of this<b=
r>
&gt; extended community), a PE has to use heuristics to set the O flag in N=
A<br>
&gt; messages, with the heuristic being &quot;normally set the O flag, but =
when<br>
&gt; the BD/interface has anycast enabled, clear the O flag&quot;.&nbsp; Th=
e new<br>
&gt; behavior when the information in this extended community is available,=
<br>
&gt; is then to &quot;always send the value received from the extended comm=
unity&quot;.<br>
&gt; [jorge] yes, I added this to clarify:<br>
&gt; =93..and will always use this O Flag value when replying to a Neighbor=
 Solicitation for the IPv6 address=85=94<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; However, if my understanding (above) is correct, that doesn't seem qui=
te<br>
&gt; right, since it's generally not safe to set the O flag in such an<br>
&gt; &quot;anycast&quot; scenario.&nbsp; Am I missing something?<br>
&gt; [jorge] sorry, not sure if I understand... suppose you have two hosts =
connected to the same broadcast domain, h1 and h2. If h2 sends a NS message=
, h1 can reply with O=3D1 or O=3D0. If that BD is now EVPN enabled, the NS =
and NA messages are translated into MAC/IP
 routes with the flags in the ext community. To me both cases are equally s=
afe or unsafe? Let me know if I=92m missing something please.<br>
<br>
It is probably me who is missing something.<br>
I was not sure what was different between the case of &quot;anycast with no=
<br>
EVPN&quot; and &quot;anycast with EVPN&quot;.&nbsp; I guess, in the former =
case the PE is<br>
responsible for figuring out what value to put in the O flag, and thus is<b=
r>
responsible if anything goes wrong, but in the latter case the PE is just<b=
r>
deferring to the other node, so if a &quot;bad&quot; value is put in the O =
flag this<br>
is due to an error at a different layer -- the PE (and, thus, the new<br>
behavior in this document) does not need to take particular care for<br>
whether anycast is enabled.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">[jorge2] Yes, that=92s what I think.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Community) is a configured ARP/ND entry.&nbsp; The I=
P address in the EVPN<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAC/IP Advertisement route can only be bound togethe=
r with the MAC<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; address specified in the same route.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; nit: I'm not sure I understand what &quot;can only be bound together w=
ith&quot;<br>
&gt; means here.&nbsp; (What would the other option be?)<br>
&gt; [jorge] I added this to clarify:<br>
&gt; =93In this case, the IP address in the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route=
 can only be bound together with the MAC address specified in the same rout=
e, and not with any other MAC addresses received in a different route witho=
ut the I Flag set.=94<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 3.1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Just to check my understanding: the dynamic learning here only applies=
<br>
&gt; to NA messages received from the CE directly, not those received from<=
br>
&gt; other EVPN routers?&nbsp; (Do we need to say that explicitly?)<br>
&gt; [jorge] correct, however not sure we need to say it explicitly. Other =
specs such as draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd specify all that.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; This Extended Community does not change the =
procedures described<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in [RFC7432].&nbsp; Specifically t=
he procedures for advertising the MAC<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mobility Extended Community along =
with the MAC/IP Advertisement<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; route are not changed.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (side note) I'm not entirely sure how one might expect the MAC Mobilit=
y<br>
&gt; processing to have changed as a result of the addition of the ARP/ND<b=
r>
&gt; Extended Community, but there doesn't seem to be any real harm in<br>
&gt; mentioning it like this.<br>
&gt; [jorge] it=92s just an extra clarification just in case the reader is =
wondering. I think it=92s worth mentioning.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 3.2<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; If the EVPN MAC/IP Adverti=
sement route contains an IPv6 address<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and the EVPN ARP=
/ND Extended Community, the PE MUST add the R<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and O Flags to t=
he ND entry in the ND or proxy-ND table and use<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that information=
 in Neighbor Advertisements when replying to a<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Solicitation for=
 the IPv6 address.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; editorial: &quot;add the R and O Flags&quot; could sound like they are=
 always set<br>
&gt; to 1; perhaps &quot;propagate the value of the R and O flags from the =
ARP/ND<br>
&gt; Extended Community to the ND entry&quot;?<br>
&gt; [jorge] good point, I changed it to:<br>
&gt; =93If the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route contains an IPv6 address and=
 the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, the PE MUST add the R and O Flag value=
s to the ND entry in the ND or proxy-ND table, and propagate the value of t=
he R and O flags from the ARP/ND Extended
 Community to the Neighbor Advertisements when replying to a Solicitation f=
or the IPv6 address.=94<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; move as well.&nb=
sp; Even so, if an update for the same IP1-&gt;MAC1<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; immutable and st=
atic, is received from a different PE, one of<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the two routes w=
ill be selected, as in the [RFC7432] case where<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; two MAC/IP route=
s with Static bit are received for the same MAC<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; from different P=
Es.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I couldn't find much discussion of this scenario in RFC 7432 by<br>
&gt; searching for &quot;static&quot; or &quot;sticky&quot;; could you help=
 point me in the right<br>
&gt; direction?<br>
&gt; [jorge] the static flag is defined in RFC7432, section 15.2. It does n=
ot explain explicitly how the selection works for two MAC/IP routes with th=
e same MAC (different RD) from two different PEs, it=92s up to the implemen=
tation. The point here is that implementations
 should do the same for the I flag.<br>
<br>
Okay, I think maybe I understand what is happening here (and, to be honest,=
<br>
the 7432 reference makes more sense to me now, on the second reading).&nbsp=
; For<br>
both sticky MAC addresses and for ARP/ND routes with the I flag, if an<br>
implementation gets two different ones, it has to pick one to use.&nbsp; In=
 7432<br>
that is left implicit, but here we say it explicitly (which is good).&nbsp;=
 When<br>
in such a position of needing to pick one, the PE has to alert the operator=
<br>
that something weird is going on -- this is what the 7432 reference is<br>
saying.&nbsp; But in some sense these are two independent actions, they jus=
t<br>
occur in the same situation.&nbsp; So perhaps it is more clear to say &quot=
;... one<br>
of the two routes will be selected.&nbsp; This case is analogous to the<br>
[RFC7432] case when two MAC/IP routes with the Static bit set are received,=
<br>
and the PE likewise MUST alert the operator of such a situation.&quot;?<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">[jorge2] yes, good point thanks. I took your suggestion.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; destination to PE2.&nbsp; If for some reason, PE3 or=
iginates an EVPN MAC/<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 (even with a=
 higher sequence<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; number), then the EVPN PEs in the BD SHOULD NOT upda=
te their<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP1-&gt;MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, since IP1 is bound to =
MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; still be programmed in the layer-2 BDs).&nbsp; This =
is considered a<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration in PE3.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I don't really understand the motivation for SHOULD NOT, here.&nbsp; I=
t seems<br>
&gt; like a PE would need to violate some other part of the spec in order t=
o<br>
&gt; do so, so just &quot;will not&quot; would be workable.<br>
&gt; (I'm also left to assume that the route from PE3 sets I=3D0, which mig=
ht<br>
&gt; be worth making explicit.)<br>
&gt; [jorge] good one, changed it to:<br>
&gt; =93If for some reason, PE3 originates an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement rou=
te for IP1-&gt;MAC2 with I=3D0 (even with a higher sequence number), then t=
he EVPN PEs in the BD will not update their IP1-&gt;MAC1 ARP/ND bindings, s=
ince IP1 is bound to MAC1 (MAC2 SHOULD still
 be programmed in the layer-2 BDs). This is considered a misconfiguration i=
n PE3.=94<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The use of the Flag I=3D1 assumes that a given IP is=
 always bound to<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the same MAC address, and therefore the mobility pro=
cedures described<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility] for &q=
uot;Host IP move to a<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; new MAC&quot; will not apply.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Do we want to say anything about how things should behave if the<br>
&gt; assumption is violated?<br>
&gt; [jorge] probably not, the use of the I flag in the spec means an IP ca=
nnot move to a new MAC. Maybe we will need to make it also explicit in I-D.=
ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 4<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It seems like this mechanism (or rather, RFC 7432's MAC/IP<br>
&gt; Advertisement) doesn't really affect the spoofability of ND; the same<=
br>
&gt; information (actually the same, now that this mechanism exists to send=
<br>
&gt; the R/O flags) is being conveyed just over a different protocol, and<b=
r>
&gt; DAD/mobility should still work the same way.&nbsp; There's an extra<br=
>
&gt; translation step at the PEs the introduces an opportunity for<br>
&gt; translation errors but that's not very noteworthy.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The I flag is somewhat different, as I mentioned at the top of my<br>
&gt; comments.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Similarly, the receiver of a NA message with the wro=
ng R flag, may<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; update its Default Router List incorrectly adding or=
 removing an<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; entry.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I suggest adding at the end of the sentence &quot;, which could for ex=
ample<br>
&gt; lead to sending traffic to a node that is not a router, causing the<br=
>
&gt; traffic to be dropped&quot;.<br>
&gt; [jorge] added, thank you<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 5<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Given the email discussion regarding the use of flag position 5, shoul=
d<br>
&gt; a note be left in the registry about that informal usage?<br>
&gt; [jorge] yes, but this document should not say anything, right? Let me =
know.<br>
<br>
This document is creating the registry, so it is a natural time to place a<=
br>
comment in the registry.&nbsp; It is not the only way that such a note coul=
d be<br>
added, but since the registration procedure is Standards Action it may be<b=
r>
prudent to make such a directive to IANA while we have a proposed standard<=
br>
document (this one) already in the works.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">[jorge2] OK, sounds good to me. I added the following note in the IANA se=
ction, let me know if this is good enough:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Note that the Flag position 5=
 is left unassigned and not used in this<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; specification since it was pr=
eviously requested by<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.rbickhart-evpn-ip-mac-pr=
oxy-adv].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
<br>
Thanks again,<br>
<br>
Ben<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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FYI

This revision addresses some concerns raised by the AD review.
Thank you.
Jorge

From: BESS <bess-bounces@ietf.org>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 9:29 AM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Operational Aspects of Proxy-ARP/ND in EVPN Netwo=
rks
        Authors         : Jorge Rabadan
                          Senthil Sathappan
                          Kiran Nagaraj
                          Greg Hankins
                          Thomas King
        Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09.txt
        Pages           : 23
        Date            : 2020-10-12

Abstract:
   The EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route can optionally carry IPv4 and
   IPv6 addresses associated with a MAC address.  Remote PEs importing
   those routes in the same Broadcast Domain (BD) can use this
   information to reply locally (act as proxy) to IPv4 ARP requests and
   IPv6 Neighbor Solicitation messages (or 'unicast-forward' them to the
   owner of the MAC) and reduce/suppress the flooding produced by the
   Address Resolution procedure.  This EVPN capability is extremely
   useful in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs) and Data Centers (DCs) with
   large BDs, where the amount of ARP/ND flooded traffic causes issues
   on connected routers and CEs.  This document describes the EVPN
   Proxy-ARP/ND function augmented by the capability of the ARP/ND
   Extended Community, which together help IXPs and other operators to
   deal with the issues derived from Address Resolution in large BDs.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">FYI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">This revision addresses some concerns raised by the AD review.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">BESS &lt;bess-bounces@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 9:29 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>i-d-announce@ietf.org &lt;i-d-announce@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>bess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09.txt=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Operational Aspects of Proxy-ARP/ND in =
EVPN Networks<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Authors&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Jorge Rabadan<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Senthil Sathappan<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Kiran Nagaraj<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Greg Hankins<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 Thomas King<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09.txt<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 23<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 2020-10-12<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route can optionally carry IPv4 =
and<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; IPv6 addresses associated with a MAC address.&nbsp; Remote PEs=
 importing<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; those routes in the same Broadcast Domain (BD) can use this<br=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp; information to reply locally (act as proxy) to IPv4 ARP reques=
ts and<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; IPv6 Neighbor Solicitation messages (or 'unicast-forward' them=
 to the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; owner of the MAC) and reduce/suppress the flooding produced by=
 the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Address Resolution procedure.&nbsp; This EVPN capability is ex=
tremely<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; useful in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs) and Data Centers (DC=
s) with<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; large BDs, where the amount of ARP/ND flooded traffic causes i=
ssues<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; on connected routers and CEs.&nbsp; This document describes th=
e EVPN<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Proxy-ARP/ND function augmented by the capability of the ARP/N=
D<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Extended Community, which together help IXPs and other operato=
rs to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; deal with the issues derived from Address Resolution in large =
BDs.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-=
nd/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd/</a=
><br>
<br>
There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09=
">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy=
-arp-nd-09">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prox=
y-arp-nd-09</a><br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-a=
rp-nd-09">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-ar=
p-nd-09</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet=
-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
BESS mailing list<br>
BESS@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/bess</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
Thread-Index: AQHWkSE3/H4+MFrsGkKXtA5nmpzMoqmPG0WAgABBi/A=
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 13:18:25 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bess] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Jorge,

Please see [RW] inline

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Sent: 09 October 2020 10:30
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf=
.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Robert,

Thank you for the review.
Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].

Jorge

From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.o=
rg>>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>>
Subject: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS)
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my
ignorance here:

Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is
for a configured ARP/ND entry.

Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing
text:

      *  Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1
         for the same IP but different MAC is considered a
         misconfiguration.

But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to
point to a new MAC address?
[jorge] well, it shouldn't happen. The old route should be withdrawn before=
 the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:
"Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. Note that if a con=
figured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, t=
he EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before t=
he EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised."
Would that help?
[RW]
Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hence thi=
s shouldn't happen, I'm less convinced that this situation could never occu=
r, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what the receive=
r does in this scenario does occur.  I presume that the only safe action wo=
uld be to update the IP->MAC binding?
Regards,
Rob



Regards,
Rob




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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Jorge,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Please se=
e [RW] inline
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nok=
ia.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 October 2020 10:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; The IESG &lt;ies=
g@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; be=
ss@ietf.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Hi Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Thank you for the review.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span=
></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Robert Wil=
ton via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot positio=
n for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my<br=
>
ignorance here:<br>
<br>
Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is<br>
for a configured ARP/ND entry.<br>
<br>
Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing<br>
text:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Adver=
tisement routes with I=3D1<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the same IP but differ=
ent MAC is considered a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration.<br>
<br>
But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to<br>
point to a new MAC address?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] well, it shouldn&#8=
217;t happen. The old route should be withdrawn before the new one is adver=
tised. I added a sentence in case it helps:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&#8220;Receiving multiple E=
VPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different MA=
C is considered a misconfiguration.
<b>Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC add=
ress, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&g=
t;MAC2 is advertised.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Would that help?<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">[RW] <o:p>
</o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hen=
ce this shouldn&#8217;t happen, I&#8217;m less convinced that this situatio=
n could never occur, and hence I would prefer for
 the specification to state what the receiver does in this scenario does oc=
cur.&nbsp; I presume that the only safe action would be to update the IP-&g=
t;MAC binding?<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">Regards,<br>
Rob<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : EVPN Multi-Homing Extensions for Split Horizon Filtering
        Authors         : Jorge Rabadan
                          Kiran Nagaraj
                          Wen Lin
                          Ali Sajassi
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-00.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2020-10-09

Abstract:
   Ethernet Virtual Private Network (EVPN) is commonly used along with
   Network Virtualization Overlay (NVO) tunnels.  The EVPN multi-homing
   procedures may be different depending on the NVO tunnel type used in
   the EVPN Broadcast Domain.  In particular, there are two multi-homing
   Split Horizon procedures to avoid looped frames on the multi-homed
   CE: ESI Label based and Local Bias.  ESI Label based Split Horizon is
   used for MPLSoX tunnels, E.g., MPLSoUDP, whereas Local Bias is used
   for others, E.g., VXLAN tunnels.  The current specifications do not
   allow the operator to decide which Split Horizon procedure to use for
   tunnel encapsulations that could support both.  Examples of tunnels
   that may support both procedures are MPLSoGRE, MPLSoUDP, GENEVE or
   SRv6.  This document extends the EVPN Multi-Homing procedures so that
   an operator can decide the Split Horizon procedure for a given NVO
   tunnel depending on their own requirements.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-mh-split-horizon-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [bess] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Rob,

Thank you.
In-line.

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>, Th=
e IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@i=
etf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@=
ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Hi Jorge,

Please see [RW] inline

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Sent: 09 October 2020 10:30
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf=
.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Robert,

Thank you for the review.
Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].

Jorge

From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.o=
rg>>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>>
Subject: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS)
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my
ignorance here:

Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is
for a configured ARP/ND entry.

Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing
text:

      *  Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1
         for the same IP but different MAC is considered a
         misconfiguration.

But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to
point to a new MAC address?
[jorge] well, it shouldn=92t happen. The old route should be withdrawn befo=
re the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. Note that if a c=
onfigured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2,=
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before=
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94
Would that help?
[RW]
Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hence thi=
s shouldn=92t happen, I=92m less convinced that this situation could never =
occur, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what the rec=
eiver does in this scenario does occur.  I presume that the only safe actio=
n would be to update the IP->MAC binding?
Regards,
Rob
[jorge2] sure, still a misconfiguration or a transient condition. Would thi=
s address your concern? (see below) If so, I=92ll add it in the next revisi=
on along with other comments from the other reviews:
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. In case this mis=
configuration happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (with =
I=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update the IP->MAC entry with=
 the latest received information. Note that if a configured IP1->MAC1 chang=
es to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertis=
ement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertis=
ement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94



Regards,
Rob





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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Rob,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">In-line.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.c=
om&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@noki=
a.com&gt;, The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, b=
ess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Hi Jorge,<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Please see [RW] inline =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b>From:</b> Rabadan, J=
orge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nokia.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 October 2020 10:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; The IESG &lt;ies=
g@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; be=
ss@ietf.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you for the review.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Jorge</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Robert Wilton via Datatracker &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my<br=
>
ignorance here:<br>
<br>
Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is<br>
for a configured ARP/ND entry.<br>
<br>
Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing<br>
text:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Adver=
tisement routes with I=3D1<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the same IP but differ=
ent MAC is considered a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration.<br>
<br>
But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to<br>
point to a new MAC address?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] well, it shou=
ldn=92t happen. The old route should be withdrawn before the new one is adv=
ertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multiple=
 EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different =
MAC is considered a misconfiguration.
<b>Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC add=
ress, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&g=
t;MAC2 is advertised.=94</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Would that help?</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>[RW] </i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hen=
ce this shouldn=92t happen, I=92m less convinced that this situation could =
never occur, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what t=
he receiver does in this scenario does
 occur.&nbsp; I presume that the only safe action would be to update the IP=
-&gt;MAC binding?</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>Regards,<br>
Rob<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge2] sure, still a misconfiguration or=
 a transient condition. Would this address your concern? (see below) If so,=
 I=92ll add it in the next revision along
 with other comments from the other reviews:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertis=
ement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different MAC is considered a m=
isconfiguration. In case this misconfiguration
 happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (with I=3D1 for the=
 same IP and different MAC) will update the IP-&gt;MAC entry with the lates=
t received information. Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to p=
oint to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2,
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC1 will be withdrawn bef=
ore the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 is advertised.=94<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_MWHPR08MB3520F0BC586F566A827D633EF7070MWHPR08MB3520namp_--


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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
Thread-Index: AQHWkSE3/H4+MFrsGkKXtA5nmpzMoqmPG0WAgABBi/CABLi5gIAAAM2g
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 13:46:35 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/kxgbuUQdLv9WVXrXiFFZ0KvUHcs>
Subject: Re: [bess] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Jorge,

In-line [RW2].

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Sent: 12 October 2020 14:31
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf=
.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Rob,

Thank you.
In-line.

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<mail=
to:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>=
>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Hi Jorge,

Please see [RW] inline

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>
Sent: 09 October 2020 10:30
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>; The=
 IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org>; bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>; bess@iet=
f.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nok=
ia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Robert,

Thank you for the review.
Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].

Jorge

From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.o=
rg>>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>>
Subject: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS)
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my
ignorance here:

Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is
for a configured ARP/ND entry.

Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing
text:

      *  Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1
         for the same IP but different MAC is considered a
         misconfiguration.

But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to
point to a new MAC address?
[jorge] well, it shouldn't happen. The old route should be withdrawn before=
 the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:
"Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. Note that if a con=
figured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, t=
he EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before t=
he EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised."
Would that help?
[RW]
Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hence thi=
s shouldn't happen, I'm less convinced that this situation could never occu=
r, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what the receive=
r does in this scenario does occur.  I presume that the only safe action wo=
uld be to update the IP->MAC binding?
Regards,
Rob
[jorge2] sure, still a misconfiguration or a transient condition. Would thi=
s address your concern? (see below) If so, I'll add it in the next revision=
 along with other comments from the other reviews:
"Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. In case this misco=
nfiguration happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (with I=
=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update the IP->MAC entry with =
the latest received information. Note that if a configured IP1->MAC1 change=
s to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertise=
ment route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertise=
ment route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised."
[RW2]
Yes, I think that captures the sentiment.   Possibly, it might help to elab=
orate on the first sentence, and add RFC2119.  E.g.,
"Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transient erro=
r condition.  If this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple route=
s (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) MUST* update the=
 IP->MAC entry with the latest received information.  Note that if a config=
ured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the =
EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before the =
EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised."
*, I'm not sure whether this is a MUST or a SHOULD.  E.g., if this was a mi=
sconfiguration scenario, might the receiver of the message choose to dampen=
 the updates?
Thanks,
Rob



Regards,
Rob




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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Jorge,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In-line [=
RW2].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nok=
ia.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 October 2020 14:31<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; The IESG &lt;ies=
g@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; be=
ss@ietf.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Hi Rob,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">In-line.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span=
></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton=
 (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;, The IESG &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=
 Jorge,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Pl=
ease see [RW] inline
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain =
View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.co=
m</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 October 2020 10:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rw=
ilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">
bess@ietf.org</a>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Robert,</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you for the review.</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Please see my comments in-lin=
e with [jorge].</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Jorge</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span=
></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Robert Wil=
ton via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot positio=
n for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my<br=
>
ignorance here:<br>
<br>
Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is<br>
for a configured ARP/ND entry.<br>
<br>
Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing<br>
text:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Adver=
tisement routes with I=3D1<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the same IP but differ=
ent MAC is considered a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration.<br>
<br>
But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to<br>
point to a new MAC address?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge=
] well, it shouldn&#8217;t happen. The old route should be withdrawn before=
 the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&#8220=
;Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration.
<b>Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC add=
ress, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&g=
t;MAC2 is advertised.&#8221;</b></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Would =
that help?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">[RW] </span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">Although I appreciate that the old route should =
be withdrawn, and hence this shouldn&#8217;t happen, I&#8217;m less convinc=
ed that this situation could never occur, and hence I would prefer for the =
specification to state what the receiver does
 in this scenario does occur.&nbsp; I presume that the only safe action wou=
ld be to update the IP-&gt;MAC binding?</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<br>
Rob<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge2] sure, still a misc=
onfiguration or a transient condition. Would this address your concern? (se=
e below) If so, I&#8217;ll add it in the next
 revision along with other comments from the other reviews:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&#8220;Receiving multiple E=
VPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different MA=
C is considered a misconfiguration. In case this
 misconfiguration happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (w=
ith I=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update the IP-&gt;MAC ent=
ry with the latest received information. Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;=
MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address,
 i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC1 w=
ill be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC=
2 is advertised.&#8221;</span><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></i><=
/b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">[RW2] <o:p>
</o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">Yes, I think that captures the sentiment.&nbsp; &nbsp;Possibly, it mi=
ght help to elaborate on the first sentence, and add RFC2119.&nbsp; E.g.,<o=
:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&#8220;Receiving multipl=
e EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different=
 MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transient
 error condition. &nbsp;If this happens in the network, a PE receiving mult=
iple routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) MUST* =
update the IP-&gt;MAC entry with the latest received information. &nbsp;Not=
e that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point
 to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement ro=
ute for IP1-&gt;MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement=
 route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 is advertised.&#8221;</span></b><b><i><span lang=3D=
"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></i></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt;font-family:Consolas"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">*, I&#8217;m not sure whether this is a MUST or a SHOULD.&nbsp; E.g.,=
 if this was a misconfiguration scenario, might the receiver of the message=
 choose to dampen the updates?<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">Thanks,<br>
Rob<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/ikOuALhMu2-Aa7OFri0qfcsdI7c>
Subject: Re: [bess] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Rob,

I think a SHOULD is better =96 it=92s good to align implementations, but if=
 one chooses to make a different selection, instead of the latest one, I do=
n=92t think we can=92t prevent that. At the end of the day, this is a misco=
nfiguration or a transient condition, so the functionality is not affected =
either way.

I=92ll modify it as follows, unless anyone has a strong opinion:

<snip> Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for t=
he same IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transien=
t error condition. If this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple =
routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) SHOULD upda=
te the IP->MAC entry with the latest received information <snip>

Let me know if you are ok with it please.
Thank you!
Jorge

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:46 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>, Th=
e IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@i=
etf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@=
ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Hi Jorge,

In-line [RW2].

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Sent: 12 October 2020 14:31
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf=
.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Rob,

Thank you.
In-line.

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<mail=
to:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>=
>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Hi Jorge,

Please see [RW] inline

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>
Sent: 09 October 2020 10:30
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>; The=
 IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org>; bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>; bess@iet=
f.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nok=
ia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Robert,

Thank you for the review.
Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].

Jorge

From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.o=
rg>>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>>
Subject: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS)
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
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introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my
ignorance here:

Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is
for a configured ARP/ND entry.

Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing
text:

      *  Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1
         for the same IP but different MAC is considered a
         misconfiguration.

But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to
point to a new MAC address?
[jorge] well, it shouldn=92t happen. The old route should be withdrawn befo=
re the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. Note that if a c=
onfigured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2,=
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before=
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94
Would that help?
[RW]
Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hence thi=
s shouldn=92t happen, I=92m less convinced that this situation could never =
occur, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what the rec=
eiver does in this scenario does occur.  I presume that the only safe actio=
n would be to update the IP->MAC binding?
Regards,
Rob
[jorge2] sure, still a misconfiguration or a transient condition. Would thi=
s address your concern? (see below) If so, I=92ll add it in the next revisi=
on along with other comments from the other reviews:
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. In case this mis=
configuration happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (with =
I=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update the IP->MAC entry with=
 the latest received information. Note that if a configured IP1->MAC1 chang=
es to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertis=
ement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertis=
ement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94
[RW2]
Yes, I think that captures the sentiment.   Possibly, it might help to elab=
orate on the first sentence, and add RFC2119.  E.g.,
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transient er=
ror condition.  If this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple rou=
tes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) MUST* update t=
he IP->MAC entry with the latest received information.  Note that if a conf=
igured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, th=
e EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before th=
e EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94
*, I=92m not sure whether this is a MUST or a SHOULD.  E.g., if this was a =
misconfiguration scenario, might the receiver of the message choose to damp=
en the updates?
Thanks,
Rob



Regards,
Rob





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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:brea=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Hi Rob, <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">I think a SHOULD is better =96 it=92s good to align implementations, but =
if one chooses to make a different selection, instead of the latest one, I =
don=92t think we can=92t prevent that. At the
 end of the day, this is a misconfiguration or a transient condition, so th=
e functionality is not affected either way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">I=92ll modify it as follows, unless anyone has a strong opinion:<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Conso=
las">&lt;snip&gt; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with =
I=3D1 for the same IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or=
 a transient error condition. If this happens
 in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP=
 and a different MAC address) SHOULD update the IP-&gt;MAC entry with the l=
atest received information &lt;snip&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Let me know if you are ok with it please.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.c=
om&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:46 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@noki=
a.com&gt;, The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, b=
ess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Hi Jorge,<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">In-line [RW2].<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b>From:</b> Rabadan, J=
orge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nokia.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 October 2020 14:31<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; The IESG &lt;ies=
g@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; be=
ss@ietf.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Rob,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">In-line.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;, The IESG &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">Hi Jorge,<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">Please see [RW] inline =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><b>From:</b> Rabadan, J=
orge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.c=
om">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 October 2020 10:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rw=
ilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">
bess@ietf.org</a>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you for the review.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Jorge</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Robert Wilton via Datatracker &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my<br=
>
ignorance here:<br>
<br>
Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is<br>
for a configured ARP/ND entry.<br>
<br>
Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing<br>
text:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Adver=
tisement routes with I=3D1<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the same IP but differ=
ent MAC is considered a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration.<br>
<br>
But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to<br>
point to a new MAC address?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] well, it shou=
ldn=92t happen. The old route should be withdrawn before the new one is adv=
ertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multiple=
 EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different =
MAC is considered a misconfiguration.
<b>Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC add=
ress, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&g=
t;MAC2 is advertised.=94</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Would that help?</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i>[RW] </i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i>Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hen=
ce this shouldn=92t happen, I=92m less convinced that this situation could =
never occur, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what t=
he receiver does in this scenario does
 occur.&nbsp; I presume that the only safe action would be to update the IP=
-&gt;MAC binding?</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i>Regards,<br>
Rob</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge2] sure, still =
a misconfiguration or a transient condition. Would this address your concer=
n? (see below) If so, I=92ll add it in the next revision along with other c=
omments from the other reviews:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multiple=
 EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different =
MAC is considered a misconfiguration. In case this misconfiguration happens=
 in the network, a PE receiving multiple
 routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update the IP-&=
gt;MAC entry with the latest received information. Note that if a configure=
d IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, t=
he EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC1
 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC2 is advertised.=94</span><b><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>[RW2] </i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>Yes, I think that captures the sentiment.&nbsp; &nbsp;Possibly, it mi=
ght help to elaborate on the first sentence, and add RFC2119.&nbsp; E.g.,</=
i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multi=
ple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but differe=
nt MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transient error condition. &nb=
sp;If this happens in the network, a PE receiving
 multiple routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) M=
UST* update the IP-&gt;MAC entry with the latest received information. &nbs=
p;Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC addr=
ess, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement
 route for IP1-&gt;MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisem=
ent route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 is advertised.=94</span><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>*, I=92m not sure whether this is a MUST or a SHOULD.&nbsp; E.g., if =
this was a misconfiguration scenario, might the receiver of the message cho=
ose to dampen the updates?</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>Thanks,<br>
Rob</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
Thread-Index: AQHWkSE3/H4+MFrsGkKXtA5nmpzMoqmPG0WAgABBi/CABLi5gIAAAM2ggAAHGgCAAAX8oA==
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:21:12 +0000
Message-ID: <MN2PR11MB436634FBB1D99F468513253CB5070@MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/AnQ8LZxPtVvqWGKws0Z-JzfmyCI>
Subject: Re: [bess] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Looks good to me.

Regards,
Rob


From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Sent: 12 October 2020 14:59
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf=
.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Rob,

I think a SHOULD is better - it's good to align implementations, but if one=
 chooses to make a different selection, instead of the latest one, I don't =
think we can't prevent that. At the end of the day, this is a misconfigurat=
ion or a transient condition, so the functionality is not affected either w=
ay.

I'll modify it as follows, unless anyone has a strong opinion:

<snip> Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for t=
he same IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transien=
t error condition. If this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple =
routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) SHOULD upda=
te the IP->MAC entry with the latest received information <snip>

Let me know if you are ok with it please.
Thank you!
Jorge

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:46 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<mail=
to:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>=
>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Hi Jorge,

In-line [RW2].

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>
Sent: 12 October 2020 14:31
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>; The=
 IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org>; bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>; bess@iet=
f.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nok=
ia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Rob,

Thank you.
In-line.

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<mail=
to:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>=
>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Hi Jorge,

Please see [RW] inline

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>
Sent: 09 October 2020 10:30
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>; The=
 IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org>; bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>; bess@iet=
f.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nok=
ia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Robert,

Thank you for the review.
Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].

Jorge

From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.o=
rg>>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>>
Subject: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS)
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my
ignorance here:

Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is
for a configured ARP/ND entry.

Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing
text:

      *  Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1
         for the same IP but different MAC is considered a
         misconfiguration.

But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to
point to a new MAC address?
[jorge] well, it shouldn't happen. The old route should be withdrawn before=
 the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:
"Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. Note that if a con=
figured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, t=
he EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before t=
he EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised."
Would that help?
[RW]
Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hence thi=
s shouldn't happen, I'm less convinced that this situation could never occu=
r, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what the receive=
r does in this scenario does occur.  I presume that the only safe action wo=
uld be to update the IP->MAC binding?
Regards,
Rob
[jorge2] sure, still a misconfiguration or a transient condition. Would thi=
s address your concern? (see below) If so, I'll add it in the next revision=
 along with other comments from the other reviews:
"Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. In case this misco=
nfiguration happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (with I=
=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update the IP->MAC entry with =
the latest received information. Note that if a configured IP1->MAC1 change=
s to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertise=
ment route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertise=
ment route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised."
[RW2]
Yes, I think that captures the sentiment.   Possibly, it might help to elab=
orate on the first sentence, and add RFC2119.  E.g.,
"Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transient erro=
r condition.  If this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple route=
s (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) MUST* update the=
 IP->MAC entry with the latest received information.  Note that if a config=
ured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the =
EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before the =
EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised."
*, I'm not sure whether this is a MUST or a SHOULD.  E.g., if this was a mi=
sconfiguration scenario, might the receiver of the message choose to dampen=
 the updates?
Thanks,
Rob



Regards,
Rob




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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Looks goo=
d to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Regards,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Rob<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
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4.0pt">
<div>
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0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nok=
ia.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 October 2020 14:59<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; The IESG &lt;ies=
g@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; be=
ss@ietf.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Hi Rob,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">I think a SHOULD is better &#8211; it&#8217;s good to alig=
n implementations, but if one chooses to make a different selection, instea=
d of the latest one, I don&#8217;t think we can&#8217;t prevent
 that. At the end of the day, this is a misconfiguration or a transient con=
dition, so the functionality is not affected either way.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">I&#8217;ll modify it as follows, unless anyone has a stron=
g opinion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fo=
nt-family:Consolas">&lt;snip&gt; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertiseme=
nt routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different MAC is considered a misc=
onfiguration or a transient error condition. If
 this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (with I=3D1 fo=
r the same IP and a different MAC address) SHOULD update the IP-&gt;MAC ent=
ry with the latest received information &lt;snip&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></b><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Let me know if you are ok with it please.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span=
></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton=
 (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:46 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;, The IESG &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=
 Jorge,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In=
-line [RW2].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain =
View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.co=
m</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 October 2020 14:31<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rw=
ilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">
bess@ietf.org</a>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Rob,</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">In-line.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span=
></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton=
 (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;, The IESG &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=
 Jorge,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Pl=
ease see [RW] inline
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain =
View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.co=
m</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 October 2020 10:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rw=
ilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">
bess@ietf.org</a>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Robert,</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you for the review.</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Please see my comments in-lin=
e with [jorge].</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Jorge</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span=
></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Robert Wil=
ton via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot positio=
n for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my<br=
>
ignorance here:<br>
<br>
Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is<br>
for a configured ARP/ND entry.<br>
<br>
Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing<br>
text:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Adver=
tisement routes with I=3D1<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the same IP but differ=
ent MAC is considered a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration.<br>
<br>
But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to<br>
point to a new MAC address?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge=
] well, it shouldn&#8217;t happen. The old route should be withdrawn before=
 the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&#8220=
;Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration.
<b>Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC add=
ress, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&g=
t;MAC2 is advertised.&#8221;</b></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Would =
that help?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">[RW] </span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">Although I appreciate that the old route should =
be withdrawn, and hence this shouldn&#8217;t happen, I&#8217;m less convinc=
ed that this situation could never occur, and hence I would prefer for the =
specification to state what the receiver does
 in this scenario does occur.&nbsp; I presume that the only safe action wou=
ld be to update the IP-&gt;MAC binding?</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<br>
Rob</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge=
2] sure, still a misconfiguration or a transient condition. Would this addr=
ess your concern? (see below) If so, I&#8217;ll add it in the next revision=
 along with other comments from the other
 reviews:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&#8220=
;Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the sam=
e IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. In case this misco=
nfiguration happens in the network, a PE receiving
 multiple routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update=
 the IP-&gt;MAC entry with the latest received information. Note that if a =
configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1-&g=
t;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route
 for IP1-&gt;MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement ro=
ute for IP1-&gt;MAC2 is advertised.&#8221;</span><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>&nbsp;</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">[RW2] </span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, I think that captures the sentiment.&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Possibly, it might help to elaborate on the first sentence, and add R=
FC2119.&nbsp; E.g.,</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&#8=
220;Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the =
same IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transient e=
rror condition. &nbsp;If this happens in the network,
 a PE receiving multiple routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different=
 MAC address) MUST* update the IP-&gt;MAC entry with the latest received in=
formation. &nbsp;Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to=
 a new MAC address, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN
 MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC1 will be withdrawn before the E=
VPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 is advertised.&#8221;</span=
></b><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">*, I&#8217;m not sure whether this is a MUST or =
a SHOULD.&nbsp; E.g., if this was a misconfiguration scenario, might the re=
ceiver of the message choose to dampen the updates?</span></i></b><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<br>
Rob</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_MN2PR11MB436634FBB1D99F468513253CB5070MN2PR11MB4366namp_--


From nobody Mon Oct 12 07:37:54 2020
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Subject: [bess] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-08: (with COMMENT)
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Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-08: No Objection

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Update: Thank you for addressing my DISCUSS concern. ]

Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and easy to
understand - thank you for writing it...




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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 10:37:52 -0400
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To: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi there,

Just a quick note to say thank you for addressing my concerns; I
appreciate your adding text even though the concern isn't (strictly)
within this document.

I've just cleared my DISCUSS.

W



On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:10 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain
View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> OK, thanks for explaining.
>
>
>
> Added the following text in rev 08. Let me know if it satisfies your conc=
ern. I understand it is a general concern about proxy-arp/nd in EVPN networ=
ks and not about this specific document.
>
>
>
>
>
> The same security considerations described in [RFC7432] apply to this
>
>    document.  In general, it is worth noting that the use of Proxy ARP/
>
>    ND in EVPN BDs may add some security risks.  Attackers can make use
>
>    of ARP/ND messages to create state in all the PEs attached to the
>
>    same BD as the attacker and exhaust resources in those PEs.
>
>    Therefore, additional security mechanisms may be needed.  Some
>
>    examples of such additional security mechanisms are e.g., limit the
>
>    number of Proxy ARP/ND entries per-BD/per-port, or monitor closely
>
>    the rate at which hosts create dynamic Proxy-ARP/ND entries.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you!
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
> Date: Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 3:39 PM
> To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
> Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <dra=
ft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@iet=
f.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com>
> Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06:=
 (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) =
<jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> Thank you for reviewing!
>
>
>
> Please see some comments in-line and let us know if we still need to add =
information to the security section.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> From: Warren Kumari via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags=
@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bes=
s@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, =
Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
> Subject: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (wi=
th DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...
>
>
>
> This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertisements=
. It
> seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to ex=
haust
> state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states=
 (make
> up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burnin=
g
> memory / state / etc.
>
> This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this documen=
t
> seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in the
> Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explanati=
on
> that I'm mistaken :-)).
>
> --------------------
>
> [jorge] we=E2=80=99re happy to add any other explanations in the security=
 section, however I thought your concern could have been addressed by this =
existing sentence:
>
>    =E2=80=9CIn addition, this document adds pieces of information that im=
pact on
>
>    the way ARP/ND entries are installed in ARP/ND and/or proxy-ARP/ND
>
>    tables, and therefore the resolution protocols for IPv4 and IPv6
>
>    addresses.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Also, can you please clarify what you mean by this?:
>
> =E2=80=9Cthis gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exhaust
> state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states=
 (make
> up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burnin=
g
> memory / state / etc.=E2=80=9D
>
> Note that the new flags come in an extended community, which is not part =
of the route key, hence receiving multiple combinations of flags with the s=
ame IP->MAC information will not create new state, but update the existing =
one. As an example, if a PE receives IP1->MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0) and later IP1->=
MAC1(R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will not create additional state but will update =
the entry with the latest information.
>
>
>
> Yes, multiple combinations of flags with the same IP->MAC will just resul=
t in updates, but let's pretend I'm sitting on a network at work, my IP add=
ress is 172.16.0.10/12 and my MAC address is 00:11:22:33:44:55. I've decide=
d I want the rest of the day off to go watch the cricket match, and so it w=
ould be *just great* if the network were to go down....
>
>
>
> I generate an ARP request for 172.16.0.11, and then immediately reply to =
my own ARP with a MAC address of 00:11:22:33:44:56. I then generate an ARP =
request for 172.16.0.12, and immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC add=
ress of 00:11:22:33:44:57, etc. (This is a trivial ARP flooding attack - ht=
tps://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threat-encyclopedia/archive/security-advi=
sories/arp%20flooding%20attack. Variations include using the same IP and di=
fferent MACs, or the same MAC and different IPs.)
>
>
>
> On a "normal" (non-VPN) system, this is only slightly painful (everything=
 is local, you can purge old IP->MAC entries easily, and the worst case fai=
lure is the single router that you are behind). In a (L2-style) VPN this ne=
eds to be propagated, and each new ARP entry requires a new announcement, a=
ll devices need to do $something, and the failure domain is all of the devi=
ces participating.
>
>
>
>
>
> Let me know if I=E2=80=99m missing your point please, and if so it would =
be great if you can suggest some text for the security section.
>
>
>
> I don't really have any suggested text, other than perhaps a warning that=
 implementations should pay attention to this. Actually I'm not sure what t=
he least painful response is...
>
>
>
> W
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> I also support EK & Rob's DISCUSSes
>
> [jorge] we think we addressed their discusses=E2=80=A6 but obviously they=
 (and you) can let us know if it is not the case.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and eas=
y to
> understand - thank you for writing it...
>
> [jorge] thank you for your kind words!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea =
in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing re=
gret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants=
.
>    ---maf



--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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From: "Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, "Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)" <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bess/SfoYSLQeQnF6vOjHpNC4XLjIIVU>
Subject: Re: [bess] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS)
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Thank you Rob!
Jorge

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 4:21 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>, Th=
e IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@i=
etf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@=
ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Looks good to me.

Regards,
Rob


From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Sent: 12 October 2020 14:59
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; bess@ietf=
.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Rob,

I think a SHOULD is better =96 it=92s good to align implementations, but if=
 one chooses to make a different selection, instead of the latest one, I do=
n=92t think we can=92t prevent that. At the end of the day, this is a misco=
nfiguration or a transient condition, so the functionality is not affected =
either way.

I=92ll modify it as follows, unless anyone has a strong opinion:

<snip> Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for t=
he same IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transien=
t error condition. If this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple =
routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) SHOULD upda=
te the IP->MAC entry with the latest received information <snip>

Let me know if you are ok with it please.
Thank you!
Jorge

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:46 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<mail=
to:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>=
>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Hi Jorge,

In-line [RW2].

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>
Sent: 12 October 2020 14:31
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>; The=
 IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org>; bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>; bess@iet=
f.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nok=
ia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Rob,

Thank you.
In-line.

From: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<mail=
to:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>=
>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)
Hi Jorge,

Please see [RW] inline

From: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>>
Sent: 09 October 2020 10:30
To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>; The=
 IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org>; bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>; bess@iet=
f.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nok=
ia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>
Subject: Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS)

Hi Robert,

Thank you for the review.
Please see my comments in-line with [jorge].

Jorge

From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org<mailto:noreply@ietf.o=
rg>>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>
Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-f=
lags@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-be=
ss-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>>, bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.o=
rg> <bess-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org>>, bess@ietf.org<mail=
to:bess@ietf.org> <bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>>, Bocci, Matthew (No=
kia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com>>, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com<mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.c=
om>>
Subject: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with=
 DISCUSS)
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss

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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my
ignorance here:

Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is
for a configured ARP/ND entry.

Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing
text:

      *  Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1
         for the same IP but different MAC is considered a
         misconfiguration.

But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to
point to a new MAC address?
[jorge] well, it shouldn=92t happen. The old route should be withdrawn befo=
re the new one is advertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. Note that if a c=
onfigured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2,=
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before=
 the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94
Would that help?
[RW]
Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hence thi=
s shouldn=92t happen, I=92m less convinced that this situation could never =
occur, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what the rec=
eiver does in this scenario does occur.  I presume that the only safe actio=
n would be to update the IP->MAC binding?
Regards,
Rob
[jorge2] sure, still a misconfiguration or a transient condition. Would thi=
s address your concern? (see below) If so, I=92ll add it in the next revisi=
on along with other comments from the other reviews:
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration. In case this mis=
configuration happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes (with =
I=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update the IP->MAC entry with=
 the latest received information. Note that if a configured IP1->MAC1 chang=
es to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertis=
ement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertis=
ement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94
[RW2]
Yes, I think that captures the sentiment.   Possibly, it might help to elab=
orate on the first sentence, and add RFC2119.  E.g.,
=93Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the s=
ame IP but different MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transient er=
ror condition.  If this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple rou=
tes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) MUST* update t=
he IP->MAC entry with the latest received information.  Note that if a conf=
igured IP1->MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1->MAC2, th=
e EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC1 will be withdrawn before th=
e EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1->MAC2 is advertised.=94
*, I=92m not sure whether this is a MUST or a SHOULD.  E.g., if this was a =
misconfiguration scenario, might the receiver of the message choose to damp=
en the updates?
Thanks,
Rob



Regards,
Rob





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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you Rob!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
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gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.c=
om&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 4:21 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@noki=
a.com&gt;, The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-=
na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, b=
ess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Looks good to me.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Rob<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
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4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b>From:</b> Rabadan, J=
orge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nokia.com&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 October 2020 14:59<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;; The IESG &lt;ies=
g@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org; bess-chairs@ietf.org; be=
ss@ietf.org; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Rob,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">I think a SHOULD is better =96 it=92s good t=
o align implementations, but if one chooses to make a different selection, =
instead of the latest one, I don=92t think we
 can=92t prevent that. At the end of the day, this is a misconfiguration or=
 a transient condition, so the functionality is not affected either way.</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">I=92ll modify it as follows, unless anyone h=
as a strong opinion:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&lt;snip&gt; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/=
IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different MAC is con=
sidered a misconfiguration or a transient error
 condition. If this happens in the network, a PE receiving multiple routes =
(with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) SHOULD update the =
IP-&gt;MAC entry with the latest received information &lt;snip&gt;</span></=
b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Let me know if you are ok with it please.</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Jorge</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:46 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;, The IESG &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">Hi Jorge,<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">In-line [RW2].<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><b>From:</b> Rabadan, J=
orge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.c=
om">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 October 2020 14:31<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rw=
ilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">
bess@ietf.org</a>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Rob,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">In-line.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:rwilton@cisco.com">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
jorge.rabadan@nokia.com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;, The IESG &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt">Hi Jorge,<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt">Please see [RW] inline=
 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt"><b>From:</b> Rabadan, =
Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jorge.rabadan@nokia.=
com">jorge.rabadan@nokia.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 October 2020 10:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Rob Wilton (rwilton) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rw=
ilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;; The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">
bess@ietf.org</a>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hi Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Thank you for the review.</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Please see my comments in-line with [jorge]=
.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Jorge</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:108.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:144.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Robert Wilton via Datatracker &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:44 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-=
ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-bess-=
evpn-na-flags@ietf.org">draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bess-chairs@ietf.org">bess-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:be=
ss@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthew.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;, Bocci,=
 Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:matthew.bocci@nokia.com">matthe=
w.bocci@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06=
: (with DISCUSS)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:144.0pt">
Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/"=
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Hopefully a relatively easy discuss to resolve and this might just be my<br=
>
ignorance here:<br>
<br>
Section 2 states that I flag is used for an immutable ARP/ND Binding which =
is<br>
for a configured ARP/ND entry.<br>
<br>
Section 3.2 Reception of the EVPN ARP/ND Extended Community, has the follow=
ing<br>
text:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; Receiving multiple EVPN MAC/IP Adver=
tisement routes with I=3D1<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for the same IP but differ=
ent MAC is considered a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; misconfiguration.<br>
<br>
But wouldn't this scenario occur if the configured ARP/ND entry was changed=
 to<br>
point to a new MAC address?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge] well, it shou=
ldn=92t happen. The old route should be withdrawn before the new one is adv=
ertised. I added a sentence in case it helps:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multiple=
 EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different =
MAC is considered a misconfiguration.
<b>Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC add=
ress, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&g=
t;MAC2 is advertised.=94</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Would that help?</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<b><i>[RW] </i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<b><i>Although I appreciate that the old route should be withdrawn, and hen=
ce this shouldn=92t happen, I=92m less convinced that this situation could =
never occur, and hence I would prefer for the specification to state what t=
he receiver does in this scenario does
 occur.&nbsp; I presume that the only safe action would be to update the IP=
-&gt;MAC binding?</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:108.0pt">
<b><i>Regards,<br>
Rob</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">[jorge2] sure, still =
a misconfiguration or a transient condition. Would this address your concer=
n? (see below) If so, I=92ll add it in the next revision along with other c=
omments from the other reviews:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multiple=
 EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but different =
MAC is considered a misconfiguration. In case this misconfiguration happens=
 in the network, a PE receiving multiple
 routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and different MAC) will update the IP-&=
gt;MAC entry with the latest received information. Note that if a configure=
d IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC address, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, t=
he EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;MAC1
 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route for IP1-&gt;M=
AC2 is advertised.=94</span><b><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i>[RW2] </i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i>Yes, I think that captures the sentiment.&nbsp; &nbsp;Possibly, it mi=
ght help to elaborate on the first sentence, and add RFC2119.&nbsp; E.g.,</=
i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">=93Receiving multi=
ple EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement routes with I=3D1 for the same IP but differe=
nt MAC is considered a misconfiguration or a transient error condition. &nb=
sp;If this happens in the network, a PE receiving
 multiple routes (with I=3D1 for the same IP and a different MAC address) M=
UST* update the IP-&gt;MAC entry with the latest received information. &nbs=
p;Note that if a configured IP1-&gt;MAC1 changes to point to a new MAC addr=
ess, i.e., IP1-&gt;MAC2, the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement
 route for IP1-&gt;MAC1 will be withdrawn before the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisem=
ent route for IP1-&gt;MAC2 is advertised.=94</span><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i>*, I=92m not sure whether this is a MUST or a SHOULD.&nbsp; E.g., if =
this was a misconfiguration scenario, might the receiver of the message cho=
ose to dampen the updates?</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i>Thanks,<br>
Rob</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:72.0pt">
<b><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:144.0pt">
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [bess] Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Thank you Warren!
Jorge

From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Monday, October 12, 2020 at 4:38 PM
To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft=
-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.=
org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.b=
occi@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (=
with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Hi there,

Just a quick note to say thank you for addressing my concerns; I
appreciate your adding text even though the concern isn't (strictly)
within this document.

I've just cleared my DISCUSS.

W



On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:10 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain
View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> OK, thanks for explaining.
>
>
>
> Added the following text in rev 08. Let me know if it satisfies your conc=
ern. I understand it is a general concern about proxy-arp/nd in EVPN networ=
ks and not about this specific document.
>
>
>
>
>
> The same security considerations described in [RFC7432] apply to this
>
>    document.  In general, it is worth noting that the use of Proxy ARP/
>
>    ND in EVPN BDs may add some security risks.  Attackers can make use
>
>    of ARP/ND messages to create state in all the PEs attached to the
>
>    same BD as the attacker and exhaust resources in those PEs.
>
>    Therefore, additional security mechanisms may be needed.  Some
>
>    examples of such additional security mechanisms are e.g., limit the
>
>    number of Proxy ARP/ND entries per-BD/per-port, or monitor closely
>
>    the rate at which hosts create dynamic Proxy-ARP/ND entries.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you!
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
> Date: Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 3:39 PM
> To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <jorge.rabadan@nokia.com>
> Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <dra=
ft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@iet=
f.org>, bess@ietf.org <bess@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew=
.bocci@nokia.com>
> Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06:=
 (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) =
<jorge.rabadan@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Warren,
>
>
>
> Thank you for reviewing!
>
>
>
> Please see some comments in-line and let us know if we still need to add =
information to the security section.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> From: Warren Kumari via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags=
@ietf.org>, bess-chairs@ietf.org <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, bess@ietf.org <bes=
s@ietf.org>, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>, Bocci, =
Matthew (Nokia - GB) <matthew.bocci@nokia.com>
> Subject: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: (wi=
th DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>
> Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...
>
>
>
> This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertisements=
. It
> seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to ex=
haust
> state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states=
 (make
> up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burnin=
g
> memory / state / etc.
>
> This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this documen=
t
> seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in the
> Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explanati=
on
> that I'm mistaken :-)).
>
> --------------------
>
> [jorge] we=92re happy to add any other explanations in the security secti=
on, however I thought your concern could have been addressed by this existi=
ng sentence:
>
>    =93In addition, this document adds pieces of information that impact o=
n
>
>    the way ARP/ND entries are installed in ARP/ND and/or proxy-ARP/ND
>
>    tables, and therefore the resolution protocols for IPv4 and IPv6
>
>    addresses.=94
>
>
>
> Also, can you please clarify what you mean by this?:
>
> =93this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exhaust
> state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND states=
 (make
> up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and burnin=
g
> memory / state / etc.=94
>
> Note that the new flags come in an extended community, which is not part =
of the route key, hence receiving multiple combinations of flags with the s=
ame IP->MAC information will not create new state, but update the existing =
one. As an example, if a PE receives IP1->MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0) and later IP1->=
MAC1(R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will not create additional state but will update =
the entry with the latest information.
>
>
>
> Yes, multiple combinations of flags with the same IP->MAC will just resul=
t in updates, but let's pretend I'm sitting on a network at work, my IP add=
ress is 172.16.0.10/12 and my MAC address is 00:11:22:33:44:55. I've decide=
d I want the rest of the day off to go watch the cricket match, and so it w=
ould be *just great* if the network were to go down....
>
>
>
> I generate an ARP request for 172.16.0.11, and then immediately reply to =
my own ARP with a MAC address of 00:11:22:33:44:56. I then generate an ARP =
request for 172.16.0.12, and immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC add=
ress of 00:11:22:33:44:57, etc. (This is a trivial ARP flooding attack - ht=
tps://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threat-encyclopedia/archive/security-advi=
sories/arp%20flooding%20attack. Variations include using the same IP and di=
fferent MACs, or the same MAC and different IPs.)
>
>
>
> On a "normal" (non-VPN) system, this is only slightly painful (everything=
 is local, you can purge old IP->MAC entries easily, and the worst case fai=
lure is the single router that you are behind). In a (L2-style) VPN this ne=
eds to be propagated, and each new ARP entry requires a new announcement, a=
ll devices need to do $something, and the failure domain is all of the devi=
ces participating.
>
>
>
>
>
> Let me know if I=92m missing your point please, and if so it would be gre=
at if you can suggest some text for the security section.
>
>
>
> I don't really have any suggested text, other than perhaps a warning that=
 implementations should pay attention to this. Actually I'm not sure what t=
he least painful response is...
>
>
>
> W
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> I also support EK & Rob's DISCUSSes
>
> [jorge] we think we addressed their discusses=85 but obviously they (and =
you) can let us know if it is not the case.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and eas=
y to
> understand - thank you for writing it...
>
> [jorge] thank you for your kind words!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea =
in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing re=
gret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants=
.
>    ---maf



--
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Thank you Warren!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
">Jorge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Warren Kumari &lt;warren@kumari.net&gt;<=
br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 12, 2020 at 4:38 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@noki=
a.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ie=
tf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org=
 &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, bess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, =
Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flag=
s-06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Hi there,<br>
<br>
Just a quick note to say thank you for addressing my concerns; I<br>
appreciate your adding text even though the concern isn't (strictly)<br>
within this document.<br>
<br>
I've just cleared my DISCUSS.<br>
<br>
W<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 5:10 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain<br>
View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nokia.com&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Warren,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; OK, thanks for explaining.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Added the following text in rev 08. Let me know if it satisfies your c=
oncern. I understand it is a general concern about proxy-arp/nd in EVPN net=
works and not about this specific document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The same security considerations described in [RFC7432] apply to this<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; document.&nbsp; In general, it is worth noting that =
the use of Proxy ARP/<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ND in EVPN BDs may add some security risks.&nbsp; At=
tackers can make use<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of ARP/ND messages to create state in all the PEs at=
tached to the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; same BD as the attacker and exhaust resources in tho=
se PEs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Therefore, additional security mechanisms may be nee=
ded.&nbsp; Some<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; examples of such additional security mechanisms are =
e.g., limit the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; number of Proxy ARP/ND entries per-BD/per-port, or m=
onitor closely<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the rate at which hosts create dynamic Proxy-ARP/ND =
entries.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jorge<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From: Warren Kumari &lt;warren@kumari.net&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 3:39 PM<br>
&gt; To: Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain View) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nokia.=
com&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;, draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf=
.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &=
lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, bess@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Ma=
tthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-=
06: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Mountain Vie=
w) &lt;jorge.rabadan@nokia.com&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Warren,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you for reviewing!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please see some comments in-line and let us know if we still need to a=
dd information to the security section.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thx<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jorge<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From: Warren Kumari via Datatracker &lt;noreply@ietf.org&gt;<br>
&gt; Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 6:17 PM<br>
&gt; To: The IESG &lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags@ietf.org &lt;draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na=
-flags@ietf.org&gt;, bess-chairs@ietf.org &lt;bess-chairs@ietf.org&gt;, bes=
s@ietf.org &lt;bess@ietf.org&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.b=
occi@nokia.com&gt;, Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) &lt;matthew.bocci@nokia.com=
&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Warren Kumari's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: =
(with DISCUSS and COMMENT)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags-06: Discuss<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<=
br>
&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi=
s<br>
&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss=
-criteria.html">
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br=
>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-fl=
ags/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-na-flags/</a><b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Be ye not afraid! This DISCUSS should be fairly trivial to address...<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This allows for more information to be carried with MAC/IP Advertiseme=
nts. It<br>
&gt; seems to me that this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to=
 exhaust<br>
&gt; state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND sta=
tes (make<br>
&gt; up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and bur=
ning<br>
&gt; memory / state / etc.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This is somewhat discussed in RFC 7432, but the technique in this docu=
ment<br>
&gt; seems like it makes this issue somewhat worse - a single sentence in t=
he<br>
&gt; Security Considerations noting it would satisfy me (as would an explan=
ation<br>
&gt; that I'm mistaken :-)).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --------------------<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [jorge] we=92re happy to add any other explanations in the security se=
ction, however I thought your concern could have been addressed by this exi=
sting sentence:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =93In addition, this document adds pieces of informa=
tion that impact on<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the way ARP/ND entries are installed in ARP/ND and/o=
r proxy-ARP/ND<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tables, and therefore the resolution protocols for I=
Pv4 and IPv6<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; addresses.=94<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Also, can you please clarify what you mean by this?:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =93this gives a DoS-style attacker more opportunities to exhaust<br>
&gt; state on routers - I could sit on a wire and create lots of ARP/ND sta=
tes (make<br>
&gt; up new IP and MAC combinations), causing this to be propagated and bur=
ning<br>
&gt; memory / state / etc.=94<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Note that the new flags come in an extended community, which is not pa=
rt of the route key, hence receiving multiple combinations of flags with th=
e same IP-&gt;MAC information will not create new state, but update the exi=
sting one. As an example, if a PE receives
 IP1-&gt;MAC1(R=3D1,I=3D0) and later IP1-&gt;MAC1(R=3D0,I=3D1), the PE will=
 not create additional state but will update the entry with the latest info=
rmation.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes, multiple combinations of flags with the same IP-&gt;MAC will just=
 result in updates, but let's pretend I'm sitting on a network at work, my =
IP address is 172.16.0.10/12 and my MAC address is 00:11:22:33:44:55. I've =
decided I want the rest of the day off
 to go watch the cricket match, and so it would be *just great* if the netw=
ork were to go down....<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I generate an ARP request for 172.16.0.11, and then immediately reply =
to my own ARP with a MAC address of 00:11:22:33:44:56. I then generate an A=
RP request for 172.16.0.12, and immediately reply to my own ARP with a MAC =
address of 00:11:22:33:44:57, etc.
 (This is a trivial ARP flooding attack - <a href=3D"https://www.trendmicro=
.com/vinfo/us/threat-encyclopedia/archive/security-advisories/arp%20floodin=
g%20attack">
https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/threat-encyclopedia/archive/security-ad=
visories/arp%20flooding%20attack</a>. Variations include using the same IP =
and different MACs, or the same MAC and different IPs.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On a &quot;normal&quot; (non-VPN) system, this is only slightly painfu=
l (everything is local, you can purge old IP-&gt;MAC entries easily, and th=
e worst case failure is the single router that you are behind). In a (L2-st=
yle) VPN this needs to be propagated, and each new
 ARP entry requires a new announcement, all devices need to do $something, =
and the failure domain is all of the devices participating.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Let me know if I=92m missing your point please, and if so it would be =
great if you can suggest some text for the security section.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don't really have any suggested text, other than perhaps a warning t=
hat implementations should pay attention to this. Actually I'm not sure wha=
t the least painful response is...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; W<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --------------------<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I also support EK &amp; Rob's DISCUSSes<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [jorge] we think we addressed their discusses=85 but obviously they (a=
nd you) can let us know if it is not the case.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Other than my DISUCSSes, I found this document to be well written and =
easy to<br>
&gt; understand - thank you for writing it...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [jorge] thank you for your kind words!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad id=
ea in the first place.<br>
&gt; This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing=
 regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pa=
nts.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ---maf<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad<br>
idea in the first place.<br>
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing<br>
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair<br>
of pants.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; ---maf<o:p></o:p></p>
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Subject: Re: [bess] PCE Controller & SDN Controller & Netconf/Yang NMS Controller - lines blurred and can the names be used ubiquitously meaning the same
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All

Another way of looking at BGP-LS is that it is an extremely powerful tool
for centralized controller based architectures or hybrid architectures, and
it does not bog down or impact the agility and lightweight aspects of BGP,
as BGP has its overall ability to stack & pile on SAFI's and codepoint's as
necessary to meet the desired design objectives.  So BGP can still remain
as light weight or as heavy weight as desired based on the design objective.

! BGP LS IAIA codepoints
https://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-ls-parameters/bgp-ls-parameters.xhtml

So its safe to say that the use cases are pretty limitless for BGP-LS from
PCE path instantiation to ZTP & Day X provisioning & configuration.  I
think "dump drunk" depiction of BGP-LS is really a negative perception, as
BGP-LS has the native data structures primitives to build customizable
TLV's to meet almost any design objective.

Comments welcome.

Kind Regards

Gyan



On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:26 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Dear TEAS, PCE, IDR, LSR, BESS, BIER  Spring Working Groups,
>
> I have noticed that after reviewing many drafts across many WGs it seems
> in the industry that the lines seem to be blurred between a PCE controller,
> ODL or Openflow SDN Controller and a Netconf/Yang NMS Controller ZTP & Day
> X provisioning.
>
> As this is a software sitting on a server you can have a swiss army knife
> server that does everything from PCE path computation to  Netconf/Yang ZTP
> & Day N provisioning as well as any SDN Controller ODL or Openflow
> controller type functions as well.
>
> How this comes into play and realization of the lines being blurred is the
> use of BGP-LS in building the IGP topological graph of the network which
> was designed for PCEP and PCE & PCC active & passive off line path
> computation for both RSVP-TE or SR-TE path instantiation.
>
> However now BGP-LS can also be used for other functions now such as usage
> as I am a Shepherd reviewing a draft for BGP-LS usage for BIER to use
> BGP-LS to gather the elements internals within BIER using the same BGP-LS
> data structures to populate with BIER specific information to graph the
> BIER topology.  So here we are not doing any path computations as we are
> using in this use case  for NMS type function to gather data for ZTP & Day
> N provisioning.
>
> Similarly other use cases such as with TEAS TS-Transport slice and being
> able to provision TS and capturing the TS Enhanced VPN RT & resource
> information and leveraging BGP-LS to do the same data gathering & ZTP like
> controller style provisioning.
>
> It does seem as though BGP-LS as its a means of "data gathering" "dump
> truck" of anything with the kitchen sink included to build any type of
> topological graph of literally anything under the sun.  I see that is a
> nice to leverage but it does in fact blur the lines of NMS Netconf/Yang
> Controller based functionality and  PCE path computation functionality and
> SDN controller based ZTP functionality into a single ubiquitous server that
> can do all of the above and use BGP-LS to accomplish the "kitchen sink"
> tasks.  It does however transform BGP to be an NMS tool but a "tool" and
> not just the original function which it was intended NLRI network
> reachability.
>
> Am I off base and please let me know as its BGP-LS is being way over
> leveraged.  There are pros & cons to everything but I thought I would bring
> up to the WG as an important discussion point.
>
> Lots of food for thought.  Welcome all comments as well as concerns
> related to this topic.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> <http://www.verizon.com/>
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions A**rchitect *
>
>
>
> *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD
>
>

-- 

<http://www.verizon.com/>

*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *



*M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD

--00000000000052820105b18600e0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">All<div><br></div><div>Another way of loo=
king at BGP-LS is that it is an extremely powerful tool for centralized con=
troller based architectures or hybrid architectures, and it does not bog do=
wn or impact the agility and lightweight aspects of BGP, as BGP has its ove=
rall ability to stack &amp; pile on SAFI&#39;s and codepoint&#39;s as neces=
sary to meet the desired design objectives.=C2=A0 So BGP can still remain a=
s light weight or as heavy=C2=A0weight as desired based on the design objec=
tive.</div><div><br></div><div>! BGP LS IAIA codepoints</div><div><a href=
=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-ls-parameters/bgp-ls-parameters.xh=
tml">https://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-ls-parameters/bgp-ls-parameters.x=
html</a><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>So its safe to say that the use=
 cases are pretty limitless for BGP-LS from PCE path instantiation to ZTP &=
amp; Day X provisioning &amp; configuration.=C2=A0 I think &quot;dump drunk=
&quot; depiction of BGP-LS is really a negative perception, as BGP-LS has t=
he native data structures primitives to build customizable TLV&#39;s to mee=
t almost any design objective.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Comments welc=
ome.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind Regards</div><div><br></div><div>Gyan</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:26 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><br></div>Dear TEAS, PCE, IDR, LSR, BESS, BIER=C2=A0 Spring Workin=
g Groups,<div><br></div><div>I have noticed that after reviewing many draft=
s across many WGs it seems in the industry that the lines seem to be blurre=
d between a PCE controller, ODL or Openflow SDN Controller and a Netconf/Ya=
ng NMS Controller ZTP &amp; Day X provisioning.</div><div><br></div><div>As=
 this is a software sitting on a server you can have a swiss army knife ser=
ver that does everything from PCE path computation to=C2=A0 Netconf/Yang ZT=
P &amp; Day N provisioning as well as any SDN Controller ODL or Openflow co=
ntroller type functions as well.</div><div><br></div><div>How this comes in=
to play and realization of the lines being blurred is the use of BGP-LS in =
building the IGP topological graph of the network which was designed for PC=
EP and PCE &amp; PCC active &amp; passive off line path computation for bot=
h RSVP-TE or SR-TE path instantiation.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div=
>However now BGP-LS can also be used for other functions now such as usage =
as I am a Shepherd reviewing a draft for BGP-LS usage for BIER to use BGP-L=
S to gather the elements internals within BIER using the same BGP-LS data s=
tructures to populate with BIER specific information to graph the BIER topo=
logy.=C2=A0 So here we are not doing any path computations as we are using =
in this use case=C2=A0 for NMS type function to gather data for ZTP &amp; D=
ay N provisioning.</div><div><br></div><div>Similarly other use cases such =
as with TEAS TS-Transport slice and being able to provision TS and capturin=
g the TS Enhanced VPN RT &amp; resource information and leveraging BGP-LS t=
o do the same data gathering &amp; ZTP like controller style provisioning.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>It does seem as though BGP-LS as its a mean=
s of &quot;data gathering&quot; &quot;dump truck&quot; of anything with the=
 kitchen sink included to build any type of topological graph of literally =
anything under the sun.=C2=A0 I see that is a nice to leverage but it does =
in fact blur the lines of NMS Netconf/Yang Controller based functionality a=
nd=C2=A0 PCE path computation functionality and SDN controller based ZTP fu=
nctionality into a single ubiquitous server that can do all of the above an=
d use BGP-LS to accomplish the &quot;kitchen sink&quot; tasks.=C2=A0 It doe=
s however transform BGP to be an NMS tool but a &quot;tool&quot; and not ju=
st the original function which it was intended NLRI network reachability.</=
div><div><div><br></div><div>Am I off base and please let me know as its BG=
P-LS is being way over leveraged.=C2=A0 There are pros &amp; cons to everyt=
hing but I thought I would bring up to the WG as an important discussion po=
int.</div><div><br></div><div>Lots of food for thought.=C2=A0 Welcome all c=
omments as well as concerns related to this topic.</div><div><br></div>Kind=
 Regards,<br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href=3D"http://www.verizon.com/" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);padding-bottom:1em;display:inline-block" target=
=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo=
-email" width=3D"81" height=3D"18" style=3D"height: 18px; width: 81px;"></a=
><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:1em;margin:0px;font-family:&quot;Verizon NHG=
 DS&quot;,Arial,sans-serif;line-height:13px;color:black"><b>Gyan Mishra</b>=
</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);margin:0px;line-height:13px"><font face=
=3D"georgia, serif" style=3D"color:black;font-size:1em"><i>Network Solution=
s A</i></font><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>rchitect=
=C2=A0</i></font></p><p style=3D"font-size:1em;margin:0px;line-height:13px;=
color:black"><i><font face=3D"georgia, serif">M 301 502-1347<br>13101 Colum=
bia Pike=C2=A0<br></font></i>Silver Spring, MD</p></div><div><br></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href=3D"http://www.verizon.com/" style=
=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);padding-bottom:1em;display:inline-block" target=3D=
"_blank"><img src=3D"http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo-em=
ail" width=3D"81" height=3D"18" style=3D"height: 18px; width: 81px;"></a><b=
r></p><p style=3D"font-size:1em;margin:0px;font-family:&quot;Verizon NHG DS=
&quot;,Arial,sans-serif;line-height:13px;color:black"><b>Gyan Mishra</b></p=
><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);margin:0px;line-height:13px"><font face=3D=
"georgia, serif" style=3D"color:black;font-size:1em"><i>Network Solutions A=
</i></font><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>rchitect=C2=
=A0</i></font></p><p style=3D"font-size:1em;margin:0px;line-height:13px;col=
or:black"><i><font face=3D"georgia, serif">M 301 502-1347<br>13101 Columbia=
 Pike=C2=A0<br></font></i>Silver Spring, MD</p></div><div><br></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000052820105b18600e0--


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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, Zhaohui Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHWWgdq4+shddULe0um4E2nPXpZjqmVMd2A
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:55:02 +0000
Message-ID: <01E6EBE9-4362-494D-B3DA-87A2EA02747C@cisco.com>
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From nobody Tue Oct 13 07:03:17 2020
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Subject: [bess] IPR Disclosure Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding
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Dear Ali Sajassi, Samer Salam, Samir Thoria, John Drake, Jorge Rabadan:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "Integrated
Routing and Bridging in EVPN" (draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding)
was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2020-10-12 and has been posted on
the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures"
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4347/). The title of the IPR disclosure is
"Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd's Statement about IPR related to
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat



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Dear Ali Sajassi, Samer Salam, Samir Thoria, John Drake, Jorge Rabadan:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "Integrated
Routing and Bridging in EVPN" (draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding)
was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2020-10-12 and has been posted on
the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures"
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4348/). The title of the IPR disclosure is
"Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd's Statement about IPR related to
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat



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Dear Ali Sajassi, Samer Salam, Samir Thoria, John Drake, Jorge Rabadan:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "Integrated
Routing and Bridging in EVPN" (draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding)
was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2020-10-12 and has been posted on
the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures"
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/4349/). The title of the IPR disclosure is
"Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd's Statement about IPR related to
draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : EVPN Optimized Inter-Subnet Multicast (OISM) Forwarding
        Authors         : Wen Lin
                          Zhaohui Zhang
                          John Drake
                          Eric C. Rosen
                          Jorge Rabadan
                          Ali Sajassi
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-irb-mcast-05.txt
	Pages           : 77
	Date            : 2020-10-13

Abstract:
   Ethernet VPN (EVPN) provides a service that allows a single Local
   Area Network (LAN), comprising a single IP subnet, to be divided into
   multiple "segments".  Each segment may be located at a different
   site, and the segments are interconnected by an IP or MPLS backbone.
   Intra-subnet traffic (either unicast or multicast) always appears to
   the endusers to be bridged, even when it is actually carried over the
   IP or MPLS backbone.  When a single "tenant" owns multiple such LANs,
   EVPN also allows IP unicast traffic to be routed between those LANs.
   This document specifies new procedures that allow inter-subnet IP
   multicast traffic to be routed among the LANs of a given tenant,
   while still making intra-subnet IP multicast traffic appear to be
   bridged.  These procedures can provide optimal routing of the inter-
   subnet multicast traffic, and do not require any such traffic to
   leave a given router and then reenter that same router.  These
   procedures also accommodate IP multicast traffic that needs to travel
   to or from systems that are outside the EVPN domain.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-irb-mcast/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-irb-mcast-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-irb-mcast-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-irb-mcast-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Tue Oct 13 08:33:42 2020
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Subject: [bess] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-msdp-sa-interoperation-05
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Matthew Bocci has requested publication of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-msdp-sa-interoperation-05 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the BESS working group.

Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-msdp-sa-interoperation/



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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "zzhang@juniper.net" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [bess] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-09: (with COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [bess] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-09: (with COMMENT)
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From nobody Tue Oct 13 23:09:34 2020
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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Integrated Routing and Bridging in EVPN
        Authors         : Ali Sajassi
                          Samer Salam
                          Samir Thoria
                          John E Drake
                          Jorge Rabadan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-11.txt
	Pages           : 35
	Date            : 2020-10-13

Abstract:
   Ethernet VPN (EVPN) provides an extensible and flexible multi-homing
   VPN solution over an MPLS/IP network for intra-subnet connectivity
   among Tenant Systems and End Devices that can be physical or virtual.
   However, there are scenarios for which there is a need for a dynamic
   and efficient inter-subnet connectivity among these Tenant Systems
   and End Devices while maintaining the multi-homing capabilities of
   EVPN.  This document describes an Integrated Routing and Bridging
   (IRB) solution based on EVPN to address such requirements.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "zzhang@juniper.net" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [bess] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-09: (with COMMENT)
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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Weighted Multi-Path Procedures for EVPN All-Active Multi-Homing
        Authors         : Neeraj Malhotra
                          Ali Sajassi
                          Jorge Rabadan
                          John Drake
                          Avinash Lingala
                          Samir Thoria
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb-07.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2020-10-14

Abstract:
   In an EVPN-IRB based network overlay, EVPN all-active multi-homing
   enables multi-homing for a CE device connected to two or more PEs via
   a LAG, such that bridged and routed traffic from remote PEs can be
   equally load balanced (ECMPed) across the multi-homing PEs.  This
   document defines extensions to EVPN procedures to optimally handle
   unequal access bandwidth distribution across a set of multi-homing
   PEs in order to:

   o  provide greater flexibility, with respect to adding or removing
      individual PE-CE links within the access LAG.

   o  handle PE-CE LAG member link failures that can result in unequal
      PE-CE access bandwidth across a set of multi-homing PEs.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Neeraj Malhotra <neeraj.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bess] New Extended Community for draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb
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Hi John, Jeff,

FYI - latest revision of this draft corrects the BW attribute to be
transitive inline with Ali's explanation below:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb-07.txt.
Please do let us know if there are any further concerns.

4.2.  EVPN Link Bandwidth Extended Community



   A new EVPN Link Bandwidth extended community is defined to signal

   local ES link bandwidth to remote PEs.  This extended-community is

   defined of type 0x06 (EVPN).  IANA is requested to assign a sub-type

   value of 0x10 for the EVPN Link bandwidth extended community, of type

   0x06 (EVPN).  EVPN Link Bandwidth extended community is defined as

   transitive.



   Link bandwidth extended community described in [BGP-LINK-BW] for

   layer 3 VPNs was considered for re-use here.  This Link bandwidth

   extended community is however defined in [BGP-LINK-BW] as optional

   non-transitive.  Since it is not possible to change deployed behavior

   of extended-community defined in [BGP-LINK-BW], it was decided to

   define a new one.  In inter-AS scenarios, link-bandwidth needs to be

   signaled to eBGP neighbors.  When signaled across AS boundary, this

   attribute can be used to achieve optimal load-balancing towards

   source PEs from a different AS.  This is applicable both when next-

   hop is changed or unchanged across AS boundaries.



Thanks,

Neeraj


On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 11:14 PM Ali Sajassi (sajassi) <sajassi=3D
40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> John, Jeff:
>
>
>
> During the presentation of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb -03 at the BES=
S
> WG meeting, you had a question/concern regarding why we are defining a ne=
w
> EC if we are doing conditional transitive. First, I=E2=80=99d like to mak=
e a
> correction to the preso by saying that the transitivity is not conditiona=
l
> and we will correct this in the next rev of the draft. So, the EC is simp=
ly
> transitive at all time. Given the EC defined in
> draft-ietf-idr-link-bandwidth-07.txt is non-transitive, we cannot use thi=
s
> EC for our application. That=E2=80=99s why we are defining a new one.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ali
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BESS mailing list
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><di=
v>Hi John, Jeff,</div><div><br></div><div>FYI - latest revision of this dra=
ft corrects the BW attribute to be transitive inline with Ali&#39;s explana=
tion below:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-bess=
-evpn-unequal-lb-07.txt">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-bess-ev=
pn-unequal-lb-07.txt</a>. Please do let us know if there are any further co=
ncerns.</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">4.2.=C2=A0=
 EVPN Link Bandwidth Extended Community<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)"><span>=C2=A0</span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 A new EVPN Link Bandwidth extended community is defined to signal=
<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 local ES li=
nk bandwidth to remote PEs.=C2=A0 This extended-community is<span></span></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;=
Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 defined of type 0x06 (EVPN=
).=C2=A0 IANA is requested to assign a sub-type<span></span></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&q=
uot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 value of 0x10 for the EVPN Link bandwid=
th extended community, of type<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,=
0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 0x06 (EVPN).=C2=A0 EVPN Link Bandwidth extended communit=
y is defined as<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 transitive.<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span>=C2=
=A0</span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Link bandwidth=
 extended community described in [BGP-LINK-BW] for<span></span></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 layer 3 VPNs was considered for re-u=
se here.=C2=A0 This Link bandwidth<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rg=
b(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 extended community is however defined in [BGP-LINK-B=
W] as optional<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 non-transitive.=C2=A0 Since it is not possible to change deployed behav=
ior<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 of exten=
ded-community defined in [BGP-LINK-BW], it was decided to<span></span></pre=
><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 define a new one.=C2=A0 In in=
ter-AS scenarios, link-bandwidth needs to be<span></span></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 signaled to eBGP neighbors.=C2=A0 When s=
ignaled across AS boundary, this<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(=
0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 attribute can be used to achieve optimal load-balancin=
g towards<span></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 so=
urce PEs from a different AS.=C2=A0 This is applicable both when next-<span=
></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 hop is changed o=
r unchanged across AS boundaries.</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0=
,0)"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-standard;font-size:medium;white-spa=
ce:normal">Thanks,</span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=
=3D"font-family:-webkit-standard;font-size:medium;white-space:normal">Neera=
j</span></pre></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 11:14 PM Ali =
Sajassi (sajassi) &lt;sajassi=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g">40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border=
-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_3439128663922867166WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">John, Jeff:<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">During the presentati=
on of draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb -03 at the BESS WG meeting, you had a=
 question/concern regarding why we are defining a new EC if we are doing co=
nditional transitive. First, I=E2=80=99d like
 to make a correction to the preso by saying that the transitivity is not c=
onditional and we will correct this in the next rev of the draft. So, the E=
C is simply transitive at all time. Given the EC defined in draft-ietf-idr-=
link-bandwidth-07.txt is non-transitive,
 we cannot use this EC for our application. That=E2=80=99s why we are defin=
ing a new one.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Cheers,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Ali<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>

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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bess</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Subject: [bess] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11
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Reviewer: Adrian Farrel
Review result: Has Issues

Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs.
For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would
be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by
updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt
Reviewer: Adrian Farrel
Review Date: 2020-10-18
IETF LC End Date: 2020-10-19
Intended Status: Proposed Standard

==Summary:==

I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolved
before publication.

==Comments:==

This document is fairly easy to read, but demands a thorough understanding of
RFCs 6513 and 6514. That is not unreasonable.

I also hope that the IDR working group has had a good opportunity to review
this work.

==Major Issues:==

None

==Minor Issues:==

Abstract

I think the Abstract should mention explicitly that this document
extends BGP (and how).

---

Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined
in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn't see anything similar in sections
4 and 5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since
this document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures
are optional.

Actually it would be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in
with "legacy" deployments, and how they are all optional procedures. I
think that needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small
section of its own (maybe between 6 and 7).

---

It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel
is up.  You don't say, however, if being unable to determine that the
P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining that the
P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about the "tunnel's
state is not known to be down".)

By the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses
(up and down) because that could make a big difference?

Note that 3.1.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,
but not ways to determine whether the tunnel is down.

To reiterate, "I don't know if it is up" is not the same as "I know it
is down."

---

3.1.2

   Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such as MPLS FRR
   [RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires careful consideration
   and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link and the
   tunnel.  In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection
   methods at the same time.

OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)

I think you have to give implementation guidance.

---

All of 3.1.x are timid about the use of the mechanisms they describe.

I think that the end of 3.1 should say that an implementation may choose
to use any of these mechanisms to determine the status of the P-tunnel.

This is quite stark, however, in 3.1.3 where you have...

   When signaling state for a P2MP TE LSP is removed (e.g., if the
   ingress of the P2MP TE LSP sends a PathTear message) or the P2MP TE
   LSP changes state from Up to Down as determined by procedures in
   [RFC4875], the status of the corresponding P-tunnel SHOULD be re-
   evaluated.  If the P-tunnel transitions from Up to Down state, the
   Upstream PE that is the ingress of the P-tunnel SHOULD NOT be
   considered a valid UMH.

The use of SHOULD and SHOULD NOT is puzzling. Is this "if this mechanism
is being used, the status SHOULD..." or is it "if a P2MP MPLS-TE tunnel
is being used, this mechanism SHOULD be used"? In the former case, the
SHOULD is presumably a MUST. In the latter case, why is this worthy of
BCP 14 language when:
- this whole document is optional
- the mechanisms in 3.1.x are all optional

But 3.1.4, 3.1.5, 3.1.6, 3.1.7 also use BCP 14 language. I'm pretty sure
you mean "if this mechanism is being used..."

In case you determine to keep any use of "SHOULD" you need to describe
under what circumstances an implementation might diverge from this
strong advice.

---

3.1.6

What should I do if I don't recognise or support the setting of the BFD
Mode field?

---

4.1

   The normal and the standby C-multicast routes must have their Local
   Preference attribute adjusted

Should this be "MUST"?

---

7.1

   IANA is requested to allocate the BGP "Standby PE" community value
   (TBA1) from the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) Well-known Communities
   registry.

There are three ranges. You need to tell IANA which range to use.
Presumably not Private Use (because they are not assigned). But do you
want an assignment from the FCFS range or the Standards Action range?

==Nits:==

Abstract

Notwithstanding the terminology difference between "upstream" and
"Upstream" defined in Section 2, the distinction made in the text
here is unclear. I think that lowercase "upstream" would not be
confusing in this text.

---

Requirements Language

Please move this to a new section 2.1 to be consistent with the RFC
Editor style guide.

---

Section 1

   In the context of multicast in BGP/MPLS VPNs

That could use a reference.

---

Section 1

I don't think the description of what is in which section of the
document is quite accurate. Maybe the document has moved on? In any
case, a more specific mention of which protocols are extended/modified
would be good.

I am pretty sure that the reader has no hope of understanding this work
without having first read and absorbed RFC 6513 and RFC 6514. It would
be worth adding a short statement like "It is assumed that the reader is
familiar with the workings of multicast MPLS/BGP IP VPNs as described in
[RFC6513] and [RFC6514]."

---

Section 2

   x-PMSI: I-PMSI or S-PMSI

This is too brief!  I think you need.

   PMSI: P-Multicast Service Interface
   I-PMSI: Inclusive PMSI
   S-PMSI: Selective PMSI
   x-PMSI: Either an I-PMSI or an S-PMSI

It would be also good to list the other imported terms:

   P-tunnel: Provider-Tunnels
   UMH: Upstream Multicast Hop

I think you might collect some of the abreviations into a table in this
section. MVPN, RD, RP, NLRI, VRF, EC, AC, MED, ...

---

Section 3

s/Section 5.1 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1 of [RFC6513]/

---

Section 3 has

   selection, which will result in the downstream PE to failover to the
   Upstream PE, which is next in the list of candidates.

The language is a little unclear. Maybe...

   selection.  This will result in the downstream PE failing over to
   use the next Upstream PE in the list of candidates.

---

Section 3 has

   Because of that, procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513]
   MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.

Aren't those procedures already mandatory? That section of 6513 already
uses "MUST" (although it oes go on to say that it might not be possible
to apply the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -
peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder whether
you are saying "this case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.1
of [RFC6513]" or are you actually defining new normative behaviour?

---

Section 3

s/tunnel' state/tunnel's state/

---

Section 3.1 has

   The
   optional procedures proposed in this section also allow that all
   downstream PEs don't apply the same rules to define what the status
   of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)

A little confusing. Maybe...

   The
   optional procedures described in this section also handle the case
   the downstream PEs do not all apply the same rules to define what the
   status of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)

---

3.1.2

   A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the last-
   hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.

I like that you are using "Up" rather than "up". Maybe change throughout
the document to use "Up" and "Down"?

---

3.1.6

s/TLV 's Type/TLV's Type/

---

3.1.6.1

You use "p2mp BFD Session" rather than using "P2MP". This looks
intentional but also looks really odd. Section 7.2 uses "P2MP
BFD Session".

---

3.1.7

s/section 6.8.17 [RFC5880]/Section 6.8.17 of [RFC5880]/

---

4.

s/section 5.1.3 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1.3 of [RFC6513]/

OLD
 VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6) routes
NEW
 VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6)
END

---

4.

s/would refer to/refers to/

---

4.1

   As long as C-S is reachable via the Primary
   Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the Primary Upstream PE.

This sentence doesn't seem to be complete. What is the consequence of
this condition?

---

4.1

   o  SHOULD carry the "Standby PE" BGP Community (this is a new BGP
      Community.

I think this needs guidance on when to not include the Community

---

4.1

   Also, a LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST be set to zero.

Maybe...

   The LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST also be set to zero.

---

4.2

You might want to tidy up whether you use "a)" and "b)" or "(a)" and
"(b)"

---

4.4.1

s/Additionally, to?Additional to/

---

4.4.2

   When an Upstream ASBR receives a C-multicast route, and at least one
   of the RTs of the route matches one of the ASBR Import RT, the ASBR,
   that supports this specification, MUST locate an Inter-AS I-PMSI A-D
   Route whose RD and Source AS respectively match the RD and Source AS
   carried in the C-multicast route.  If the match is found, and the
   C-multicast route carries the Standby PE BGP Community, then the ASBR
   MUST perform as follows:

Is that "MUST try to locate"? Because it seems to be countenanced that
the attempt could fail.

---

4.4.2

s/MED attribute set of/MED attribute set to/

---

5.

   The mechanisms defined in sections Section 4 and Section 3 can be
   used together as follows.

That's an XML feature. If you do
"...defined in <xref target="section4"/><xref target="section3"/>..."
then XML2RFC will sort things out for you.  Seems to be OK a couple of
paragraphs later.

---

5.

s/semantic for is that/semantic is that/

---

6.

   Multicast VPN specifications [RFC6513] impose that a PE only forwards
   to CEs the packets coming from the expected Upstream PE
   (Section 9.1).

There being no section 9.1 in this document, I think you mean...
   "(see Section 9.1 of [RFC6513])."

Please also be clear in the next paragraph whether the references are to
sections of this document (no need to qualify) or sections of RFC 6513
(important to qualify).

---

6.

OLD
   We highlight the reader's attention to the fact that the respect of
NEW
   We draw the reader's attention to the fact that the respect of
END



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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 12:02:09 -0700
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To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: Routing Directorate <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover.all@ietf.org,  BESS <bess@ietf.org>, last-call@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [bess] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11
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Hi Adrian,
thank you for the review, detailed questions, and helpful suggestions. I'll
work through and respond within several days.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 1:09 PM Adrian Farrel via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Adrian Farrel
> Review result: Has Issues
>
> Hello,
>
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
> The
> Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts
> as
> they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
> request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing
> ADs.
> For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
> would
> be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
> comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion
> or by
> updating the draft.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt
> Reviewer: Adrian Farrel
> Review Date: 2020-10-18
> IETF LC End Date: 2020-10-19
> Intended Status: Proposed Standard
>
> ==Summary:==
>
> I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be
> resolved
> before publication.
>
> ==Comments:==
>
> This document is fairly easy to read, but demands a thorough understanding
> of
> RFCs 6513 and 6514. That is not unreasonable.
>
> I also hope that the IDR working group has had a good opportunity to review
> this work.
>
> ==Major Issues:==
>
> None
>
> ==Minor Issues:==
>
> Abstract
>
> I think the Abstract should mention explicitly that this document
> extends BGP (and how).
>
> ---
>
> Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined
> in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn't see anything similar in sections
> 4 and 5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since
> this document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures
> are optional.
>
> Actually it would be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in
> with "legacy" deployments, and how they are all optional procedures. I
> think that needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small
> section of its own (maybe between 6 and 7).
>
> ---
>
> It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel
> is up.  You don't say, however, if being unable to determine that the
> P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining that the
> P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about the "tunnel's
> state is not known to be down".)
>
> By the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses
> (up and down) because that could make a big difference?
>
> Note that 3.1.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,
> but not ways to determine whether the tunnel is down.
>
> To reiterate, "I don't know if it is up" is not the same as "I know it
> is down."
>
> ---
>
> 3.1.2
>
>    Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such as MPLS FRR
>    [RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires careful consideration
>    and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link and the
>    tunnel.  In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection
>    methods at the same time.
>
> OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)
>
> I think you have to give implementation guidance.
>
> ---
>
> All of 3.1.x are timid about the use of the mechanisms they describe.
>
> I think that the end of 3.1 should say that an implementation may choose
> to use any of these mechanisms to determine the status of the P-tunnel.
>
> This is quite stark, however, in 3.1.3 where you have...
>
>    When signaling state for a P2MP TE LSP is removed (e.g., if the
>    ingress of the P2MP TE LSP sends a PathTear message) or the P2MP TE
>    LSP changes state from Up to Down as determined by procedures in
>    [RFC4875], the status of the corresponding P-tunnel SHOULD be re-
>    evaluated.  If the P-tunnel transitions from Up to Down state, the
>    Upstream PE that is the ingress of the P-tunnel SHOULD NOT be
>    considered a valid UMH.
>
> The use of SHOULD and SHOULD NOT is puzzling. Is this "if this mechanism
> is being used, the status SHOULD..." or is it "if a P2MP MPLS-TE tunnel
> is being used, this mechanism SHOULD be used"? In the former case, the
> SHOULD is presumably a MUST. In the latter case, why is this worthy of
> BCP 14 language when:
> - this whole document is optional
> - the mechanisms in 3.1.x are all optional
>
> But 3.1.4, 3.1.5, 3.1.6, 3.1.7 also use BCP 14 language. I'm pretty sure
> you mean "if this mechanism is being used..."
>
> In case you determine to keep any use of "SHOULD" you need to describe
> under what circumstances an implementation might diverge from this
> strong advice.
>
> ---
>
> 3.1.6
>
> What should I do if I don't recognise or support the setting of the BFD
> Mode field?
>
> ---
>
> 4.1
>
>    The normal and the standby C-multicast routes must have their Local
>    Preference attribute adjusted
>
> Should this be "MUST"?
>
> ---
>
> 7.1
>
>    IANA is requested to allocate the BGP "Standby PE" community value
>    (TBA1) from the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) Well-known Communities
>    registry.
>
> There are three ranges. You need to tell IANA which range to use.
> Presumably not Private Use (because they are not assigned). But do you
> want an assignment from the FCFS range or the Standards Action range?
>
> ==Nits:==
>
> Abstract
>
> Notwithstanding the terminology difference between "upstream" and
> "Upstream" defined in Section 2, the distinction made in the text
> here is unclear. I think that lowercase "upstream" would not be
> confusing in this text.
>
> ---
>
> Requirements Language
>
> Please move this to a new section 2.1 to be consistent with the RFC
> Editor style guide.
>
> ---
>
> Section 1
>
>    In the context of multicast in BGP/MPLS VPNs
>
> That could use a reference.
>
> ---
>
> Section 1
>
> I don't think the description of what is in which section of the
> document is quite accurate. Maybe the document has moved on? In any
> case, a more specific mention of which protocols are extended/modified
> would be good.
>
> I am pretty sure that the reader has no hope of understanding this work
> without having first read and absorbed RFC 6513 and RFC 6514. It would
> be worth adding a short statement like "It is assumed that the reader is
> familiar with the workings of multicast MPLS/BGP IP VPNs as described in
> [RFC6513] and [RFC6514]."
>
> ---
>
> Section 2
>
>    x-PMSI: I-PMSI or S-PMSI
>
> This is too brief!  I think you need.
>
>    PMSI: P-Multicast Service Interface
>    I-PMSI: Inclusive PMSI
>    S-PMSI: Selective PMSI
>    x-PMSI: Either an I-PMSI or an S-PMSI
>
> It would be also good to list the other imported terms:
>
>    P-tunnel: Provider-Tunnels
>    UMH: Upstream Multicast Hop
>
> I think you might collect some of the abreviations into a table in this
> section. MVPN, RD, RP, NLRI, VRF, EC, AC, MED, ...
>
> ---
>
> Section 3
>
> s/Section 5.1 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1 of [RFC6513]/
>
> ---
>
> Section 3 has
>
>    selection, which will result in the downstream PE to failover to the
>    Upstream PE, which is next in the list of candidates.
>
> The language is a little unclear. Maybe...
>
>    selection.  This will result in the downstream PE failing over to
>    use the next Upstream PE in the list of candidates.
>
> ---
>
> Section 3 has
>
>    Because of that, procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513]
>    MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.
>
> Aren't those procedures already mandatory? That section of 6513 already
> uses "MUST" (although it oes go on to say that it might not be possible
> to apply the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -
> peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder whether
> you are saying "this case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.1
> of [RFC6513]" or are you actually defining new normative behaviour?
>
> ---
>
> Section 3
>
> s/tunnel' state/tunnel's state/
>
> ---
>
> Section 3.1 has
>
>    The
>    optional procedures proposed in this section also allow that all
>    downstream PEs don't apply the same rules to define what the status
>    of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)
>
> A little confusing. Maybe...
>
>    The
>    optional procedures described in this section also handle the case
>    the downstream PEs do not all apply the same rules to define what the
>    status of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)
>
> ---
>
> 3.1.2
>
>    A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the last-
>    hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.
>
> I like that you are using "Up" rather than "up". Maybe change throughout
> the document to use "Up" and "Down"?
>
> ---
>
> 3.1.6
>
> s/TLV 's Type/TLV's Type/
>
> ---
>
> 3.1.6.1
>
> You use "p2mp BFD Session" rather than using "P2MP". This looks
> intentional but also looks really odd. Section 7.2 uses "P2MP
> BFD Session".
>
> ---
>
> 3.1.7
>
> s/section 6.8.17 [RFC5880]/Section 6.8.17 of [RFC5880]/
>
> ---
>
> 4.
>
> s/section 5.1.3 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1.3 of [RFC6513]/
>
> OLD
>  VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6) routes
> NEW
>  VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6)
> END
>
> ---
>
> 4.
>
> s/would refer to/refers to/
>
> ---
>
> 4.1
>
>    As long as C-S is reachable via the Primary
>    Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the Primary Upstream PE.
>
> This sentence doesn't seem to be complete. What is the consequence of
> this condition?
>
> ---
>
> 4.1
>
>    o  SHOULD carry the "Standby PE" BGP Community (this is a new BGP
>       Community.
>
> I think this needs guidance on when to not include the Community
>
> ---
>
> 4.1
>
>    Also, a LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST be set to zero.
>
> Maybe...
>
>    The LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST also be set to zero.
>
> ---
>
> 4.2
>
> You might want to tidy up whether you use "a)" and "b)" or "(a)" and
> "(b)"
>
> ---
>
> 4.4.1
>
> s/Additionally, to?Additional to/
>
> ---
>
> 4.4.2
>
>    When an Upstream ASBR receives a C-multicast route, and at least one
>    of the RTs of the route matches one of the ASBR Import RT, the ASBR,
>    that supports this specification, MUST locate an Inter-AS I-PMSI A-D
>    Route whose RD and Source AS respectively match the RD and Source AS
>    carried in the C-multicast route.  If the match is found, and the
>    C-multicast route carries the Standby PE BGP Community, then the ASBR
>    MUST perform as follows:
>
> Is that "MUST try to locate"? Because it seems to be countenanced that
> the attempt could fail.
>
> ---
>
> 4.4.2
>
> s/MED attribute set of/MED attribute set to/
>
> ---
>
> 5.
>
>    The mechanisms defined in sections Section 4 and Section 3 can be
>    used together as follows.
>
> That's an XML feature. If you do
> "...defined in <xref target="section4"/><xref target="section3"/>..."
> then XML2RFC will sort things out for you.  Seems to be OK a couple of
> paragraphs later.
>
> ---
>
> 5.
>
> s/semantic for is that/semantic is that/
>
> ---
>
> 6.
>
>    Multicast VPN specifications [RFC6513] impose that a PE only forwards
>    to CEs the packets coming from the expected Upstream PE
>    (Section 9.1).
>
> There being no section 9.1 in this document, I think you mean...
>    "(see Section 9.1 of [RFC6513])."
>
> Please also be clear in the next paragraph whether the references are to
> sections of this document (no need to qualify) or sections of RFC 6513
> (important to qualify).
>
> ---
>
> 6.
>
> OLD
>    We highlight the reader's attention to the fact that the respect of
> NEW
>    We draw the reader's attention to the fact that the respect of
> END
>
>
>

--000000000000cdf4c305b21edec2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adrian,<div>thank you for the review, detailed question=
s, and helpful suggestions. I&#39;ll work through and respond within severa=
l days.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 1=
9, 2020 at 1:09 PM Adrian Farrel via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nore=
ply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewer: Adrian Farrel<br>
Review result: Has Issues<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th=
e<br>
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts a=
s<br>
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special<=
br>
request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing =
ADs.<br>
For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/Rt=
gDir</a><br>
<br>
Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo=
uld<br>
be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call<b=
r>
comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or=
 by<br>
updating the draft.<br>
<br>
Document: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt<br>
Reviewer: Adrian Farrel<br>
Review Date: 2020-10-18<br>
IETF LC End Date: 2020-10-19<br>
Intended Status: Proposed Standard<br>
<br>
=3D=3DSummary:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resol=
ved<br>
before publication.<br>
<br>
=3D=3DComments:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
This document is fairly easy to read, but demands a thorough understanding =
of<br>
RFCs 6513 and 6514. That is not unreasonable.<br>
<br>
I also hope that the IDR working group has had a good opportunity to review=
<br>
this work.<br>
<br>
=3D=3DMajor Issues:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
None<br>
<br>
=3D=3DMinor Issues:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
Abstract<br>
<br>
I think the Abstract should mention explicitly that this document<br>
extends BGP (and how).<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined<br>
in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn&#39;t see anything similar in sections=
<br>
4 and 5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since<br>
this document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures<br>
are optional.<br>
<br>
Actually it would be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in<br>
with &quot;legacy&quot; deployments, and how they are all optional procedur=
es. I<br>
think that needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small<br>
section of its own (maybe between 6 and 7).<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel<br=
>
is up.=C2=A0 You don&#39;t say, however, if being unable to determine that =
the<br>
P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining that the<br>
P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about the &quot;tunnel=
&#39;s<br>
state is not known to be down&quot;.)<br>
<br>
By the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses<br>
(up and down) because that could make a big difference?<br>
<br>
Note that 3.1.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,<br>
but not ways to determine whether the tunnel is down.<br>
<br>
To reiterate, &quot;I don&#39;t know if it is up&quot; is not the same as &=
quot;I know it<br>
is down.&quot;<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.2<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such as M=
PLS FRR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires careful considera=
tion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link an=
d the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0tunnel.=C2=A0 In many cases, it is not practical to use both p=
rotection<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0methods at the same time.<br>
<br>
OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)<br>
<br>
I think you have to give implementation guidance.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
All of 3.1.x are timid about the use of the mechanisms they describe.<br>
<br>
I think that the end of 3.1 should say that an implementation may choose<br=
>
to use any of these mechanisms to determine the status of the P-tunnel.<br>
<br>
This is quite stark, however, in 3.1.3 where you have...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When signaling state for a P2MP TE LSP is removed (e.g., if th=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ingress of the P2MP TE LSP sends a PathTear message) or the P2=
MP TE<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0LSP changes state from Up to Down as determined by procedures =
in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC4875], the status of the corresponding P-tunnel SHOULD be =
re-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0evaluated.=C2=A0 If the P-tunnel transitions from Up to Down s=
tate, the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upstream PE that is the ingress of the P-tunnel SHOULD NOT be<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered a valid UMH.<br>
<br>
The use of SHOULD and SHOULD NOT is puzzling. Is this &quot;if this mechani=
sm<br>
is being used, the status SHOULD...&quot; or is it &quot;if a P2MP MPLS-TE =
tunnel<br>
is being used, this mechanism SHOULD be used&quot;? In the former case, the=
<br>
SHOULD is presumably a MUST. In the latter case, why is this worthy of<br>
BCP 14 language when:<br>
- this whole document is optional<br>
- the mechanisms in 3.1.x are all optional<br>
<br>
But 3.1.4, 3.1.5, 3.1.6, 3.1.7 also use BCP 14 language. I&#39;m pretty sur=
e<br>
you mean &quot;if this mechanism is being used...&quot;<br>
<br>
In case you determine to keep any use of &quot;SHOULD&quot; you need to des=
cribe<br>
under what circumstances an implementation might diverge from this<br>
strong advice.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.6<br>
<br>
What should I do if I don&#39;t recognise or support the setting of the BFD=
<br>
Mode field?<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The normal and the standby C-multicast routes must have their =
Local<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Preference attribute adjusted<br>
<br>
Should this be &quot;MUST&quot;?<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
7.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IANA is requested to allocate the BGP &quot;Standby PE&quot; c=
ommunity value<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(TBA1) from the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) Well-known Commu=
nities<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0registry.<br>
<br>
There are three ranges. You need to tell IANA which range to use.<br>
Presumably not Private Use (because they are not assigned). But do you<br>
want an assignment from the FCFS range or the Standards Action range?<br>
<br>
=3D=3DNits:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
Abstract<br>
<br>
Notwithstanding the terminology difference between &quot;upstream&quot; and=
<br>
&quot;Upstream&quot; defined in Section 2, the distinction made in the text=
<br>
here is unclear. I think that lowercase &quot;upstream&quot; would not be<b=
r>
confusing in this text.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Requirements Language<br>
<br>
Please move this to a new section 2.1 to be consistent with the RFC<br>
Editor style guide.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the context of multicast in BGP/MPLS VPNs<br>
<br>
That could use a reference.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 1<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think the description of what is in which section of the<br>
document is quite accurate. Maybe the document has moved on? In any<br>
case, a more specific mention of which protocols are extended/modified<br>
would be good.<br>
<br>
I am pretty sure that the reader has no hope of understanding this work<br>
without having first read and absorbed RFC 6513 and RFC 6514. It would<br>
be worth adding a short statement like &quot;It is assumed that the reader =
is<br>
familiar with the workings of multicast MPLS/BGP IP VPNs as described in<br=
>
[RFC6513] and [RFC6514].&quot;<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 2<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0x-PMSI: I-PMSI or S-PMSI<br>
<br>
This is too brief!=C2=A0 I think you need.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0PMSI: P-Multicast Service Interface<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I-PMSI: Inclusive PMSI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0S-PMSI: Selective PMSI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0x-PMSI: Either an I-PMSI or an S-PMSI<br>
<br>
It would be also good to list the other imported terms:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0P-tunnel: Provider-Tunnels<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0UMH: Upstream Multicast Hop<br>
<br>
I think you might collect some of the abreviations into a table in this<br>
section. MVPN, RD, RP, NLRI, VRF, EC, AC, MED, ...<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3<br>
<br>
s/Section 5.1 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1 of [RFC6513]/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3 has<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0selection, which will result in the downstream PE to failover =
to the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upstream PE, which is next in the list of candidates.<br>
<br>
The language is a little unclear. Maybe...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0selection.=C2=A0 This will result in the downstream PE failing=
 over to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use the next Upstream PE in the list of candidates.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3 has<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because of that, procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC=
6513]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.<br>
<br>
Aren&#39;t those procedures already mandatory? That section of 6513 already=
<br>
uses &quot;MUST&quot; (although it oes go on to say that it might not be po=
ssible<br>
to apply the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -<br>
peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder whether<br>
you are saying &quot;this case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.=
1<br>
of [RFC6513]&quot; or are you actually defining new normative behaviour?<br=
>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3<br>
<br>
s/tunnel&#39; state/tunnel&#39;s state/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3.1 has<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0optional procedures proposed in this section also allow that a=
ll<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0downstream PEs don&#39;t apply the same rules to define what t=
he status<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)<br>
<br>
A little confusing. Maybe...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0optional procedures described in this section also handle the =
case<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the downstream PEs do not all apply the same rules to define w=
hat the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0status of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.2<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the =
last-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.<br>
<br>
I like that you are using &quot;Up&quot; rather than &quot;up&quot;. Maybe =
change throughout<br>
the document to use &quot;Up&quot; and &quot;Down&quot;?<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.6<br>
<br>
s/TLV &#39;s Type/TLV&#39;s Type/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.6.1<br>
<br>
You use &quot;p2mp BFD Session&quot; rather than using &quot;P2MP&quot;. Th=
is looks<br>
intentional but also looks really odd. Section 7.2 uses &quot;P2MP<br>
BFD Session&quot;.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.7<br>
<br>
s/section 6.8.17 [RFC5880]/Section 6.8.17 of [RFC5880]/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.<br>
<br>
s/section 5.1.3 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1.3 of [RFC6513]/<br>
<br>
OLD<br>
=C2=A0VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6) routes<br>
NEW<br>
=C2=A0VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6)<br>
END<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.<br>
<br>
s/would refer to/refers to/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As long as C-S is reachable via the Primary<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the Primary Upstream PE.<br=
>
<br>
This sentence doesn&#39;t seem to be complete. What is the consequence of<b=
r>
this condition?<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 SHOULD carry the &quot;Standby PE&quot; BGP Community =
(this is a new BGP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Community.<br>
<br>
I think this needs guidance on when to not include the Community<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST be set to zero.<br>
<br>
Maybe...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST also be set to zero.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.2<br>
<br>
You might want to tidy up whether you use &quot;a)&quot; and &quot;b)&quot;=
 or &quot;(a)&quot; and<br>
&quot;(b)&quot;<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.4.1<br>
<br>
s/Additionally, to?Additional to/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.4.2<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an Upstream ASBR receives a C-multicast route, and at lea=
st one<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the RTs of the route matches one of the ASBR Import RT, the=
 ASBR,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that supports this specification, MUST locate an Inter-AS I-PM=
SI A-D<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Route whose RD and Source AS respectively match the RD and Sou=
rce AS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0carried in the C-multicast route.=C2=A0 If the match is found,=
 and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0C-multicast route carries the Standby PE BGP Community, then t=
he ASBR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST perform as follows:<br>
<br>
Is that &quot;MUST try to locate&quot;? Because it seems to be countenanced=
 that<br>
the attempt could fail.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.4.2<br>
<br>
s/MED attribute set of/MED attribute set to/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
5.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The mechanisms defined in sections Section 4 and Section 3 can=
 be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0used together as follows.<br>
<br>
That&#39;s an XML feature. If you do<br>
&quot;...defined in &lt;xref target=3D&quot;section4&quot;/&gt;&lt;xref tar=
get=3D&quot;section3&quot;/&gt;...&quot;<br>
then XML2RFC will sort things out for you.=C2=A0 Seems to be OK a couple of=
<br>
paragraphs later.<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
5.<br>
<br>
s/semantic for is that/semantic is that/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
6.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Multicast VPN specifications [RFC6513] impose that a PE only f=
orwards<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to CEs the packets coming from the expected Upstream PE<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(Section 9.1).<br>
<br>
There being no section 9.1 in this document, I think you mean...<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;(see Section 9.1 of [RFC6513]).&quot;<br>
<br>
Please also be clear in the next paragraph whether the references are to<br=
>
sections of this document (no need to qualify) or sections of RFC 6513<br>
(important to qualify).<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
6.<br>
<br>
OLD<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0We highlight the reader&#39;s attention to the fact that the r=
espect of<br>
NEW<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0We draw the reader&#39;s attention to the fact that the respec=
t of<br>
END<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000cdf4c305b21edec2--


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Reviewer: Daniel Migault
Review result: Has Nits

Hi, 


I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoing effort to
review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These comments were
written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors.  Document
authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments just like
any other IETF Last Call comments.  Please note also that my expertise in BGP is
limited, so feel free to take these comments with a pitch of salt.  

Review Results: Has Nits

Please find my comments below. 

Yours, 
Daniel


                  Multicast VPN Fast Upstream Failover
                 draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11

Abstract

   This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that
   allow fast failover for upstream failures, by allowing downstream PEs
   to take into account the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when
   selecting the Upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow, and extending BGP
   MVPN routing so that a C-multicast route can be advertised toward a
   Standby Upstream PE.

<mglt>
Though it might be just a nit, if MVPN
designates multicast VPN, it might be
clarifying to specify the acronym in the
first sentence. This would later make
the correlation with BGP MVPN clearer. 

</mglt>


1.  Introduction

   In the context of multicast in BGP/MPLS VPNs, it is desirable to
   provide mechanisms allowing fast recovery of connectivity on
   different types of failures.  This document addresses failures of
   elements in the provider network that are upstream of PEs connected
   to VPN sites with receivers.

<mglt>
Well I am not familiar with neither BGP
nor MPLS. It seems that BGP/MLPS IP VPNS
and MPLS/BGP IP VPNs are both used. I am
wondering if there is a distinction
between the two and a preferred way to
designate these VPNs.  My understanding
is that the VPN-IPv4 characterizes the
VPN while MPLS is used by the backbone
for the transport.  Since the PE are
connected to the backbone the VPN-IPv4
needs to be labeled. 

</mglt>

   Section 3 describes local procedures allowing an egress PE (a PE
   connected to a receiver site) to take into account the status of
   P-tunnels to determine the Upstream Multicast Hop (UMH) for a given
   (C-S, C-G).  This method does not provide a "fast failover" solution
<mglt>
I understand the limitation is due to
BGP convergence. 

</mglt>
   when used alone, but can be used together with the mechanism
   described in Section 4 for a "fast failover" solution.

   Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover by
   not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at recovery
   time.

   Moreover, section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism, that
   uses a combination of these two mechanisms.  This approach has
   similarities with the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve
   failover times when PIM routing is used in a network given some
   topology and metric constraints.


[...]

3.1.1.  mVPN Tunnel Root Tracking

   A condition to consider that the status of a P-tunnel is up is that
   the root of the tunnel, as determined in the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute,
   is reachable through unicast routing tables.  In this case, the
   downstream PE can immediately update its UMH when the reachability
   condition changes.

   That is similar to BGP next-hop tracking for VPN routes, except that
   the address considered is not the BGP next-hop address, but the root
   address in the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute.

   If BGP next-hop tracking is done for VPN routes and the root address
   of a given tunnel happens to be the same as the next-hop address in
   the BGP A-D Route advertising the tunnel, then checking, in unicast
   routing tables, whether the tunnel root is reachable, will be
   unnecessary duplication and thus will not bring any specific benefit.

<mglt>
It seems to me that x-PMSI address
designates a different interface than
the one used by the Tunnel itself. If
that is correct, such mechanisms seems
to assume that one equipment up on one
interface will be up on the other
interfaces. I have the impression that a
configuration change in a PE may end up
in the P-tunnel being down, while the PE
still being reachable though the x-PMSI
Tunnel attribute. If that is a possible
scenario, the current mechanisms may not
provide more efficient mechanism than
then those of the standard BGP.

Similarly, it is assumed the tunnel is
either up or down and the determination
of not being up if being down.  I am not
convinced that the two only states.
Typically services under DDoS may be
down for a small amount of time. While
this affects the network, there is not
always a clear cut between the PE being
up or down. 
</mglt>


[...]

3.1.6.  BFD Discriminator Attribute

   P-tunnel status may be derived from the status of a multipoint BFD
   session [RFC8562] whose discriminator is advertised along with an
   x-PMSI A-D Route.

   This document defines the format and ways of using a new BGP
   attribute called the "BFD Discriminator".  It is an optional
   transitive BGP attribute.  In Section 7.2, IANA is requested to
   allocate the codepoint value (TBA2).  The format of this attribute is
   shown in Figure 1.

<mglt>
I feel that the sentence "In Section ...
TBA2)." should be removed.

</mglt>


       0                   1                   2                   3
       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |    BFD Mode   |                  Reserved                     |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                       BFD Discriminator                       |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      ~                         Optional TLVs                         ~
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


            Figure 1: Format of the BFD Discriminator Attribute

   Where:

      BFD Mode field is the one octet long.  This specification defines
      the P2MP BFD Session as value 1 Section 7.2.

      Reserved field is three octets long, and the value MUST be zeroed
      on transmission and ignored on receipt.

      BFD Discriminator field is four octets long.





Morin, et al.             Expires April 5, 2021                 [Page 7]

Internet-Draft         mVPN Fast Upstream Failover          October 2020


      Optional TLVs is the optional variable-length field that MAY be
      used in the BFD Discriminator attribute for future extensions.
      TLVs MAY be included in a sequential or nested manner.  To allow
      for TLV nesting, it is advised to define a new TLV as a variable-
      length object.  Figure 2 presents the Optional TLV format TLV that
      consists of:

      *  one octet-long field of TLV 's Type value (Section 7.3)

      *  one octet-long field of the length of the Value field in octets

      *  variable length Value field.

      The length of a TLV MUST be multiple of four octets.
<mglt>
I am wondering why the constraint on the
length is not mentioned in the paragraph
associated to the field - as opposed to
a  separate paragraph. 

</mglt>

[..]

8.  Security Considerations

   This document describes procedures based on [RFC6513] and [RFC6514]
   and hence shares the security considerations respectively represented
   in these specifications.

   This document uses p2mp BFD, as defined in [RFC8562], which, in turn,
   is based on [RFC5880].  Security considerations relevant to each
   protocol are discussed in the respective protocol specifications.  An
   implementation that supports this specification MUST use a mechanism
   to control the maximum number of p2mp BFD sessions that can be active
   at the same time.

<mglt>
At a high level view - or at least my
interpretation of it - the document
proposes a mechanism based on BFD to
detect fault in the path.  Upon a fault
detection a fail-over operation is
instructed using BGP. This rocedure is
expected to perform a faster fail-over
than traditional BGP convergence on
maintaining routing tables. Once the
fail over has been performed, BFD is
confirms the new path is "legitimate"
and works.

It seems correct to me that the current
protocol relies on BGP / BFD security.
That said, having BFD authentication
based on MD5 or SHA1 may suggest that
stronger primitives be recommended.
While this does not concerns the current
document, it seems to me that the
information might be relayed to routing
ADs. 

What remains unclear to me - and I
assume this might be due to my lake or
expertise in routing area - is the impact
associated to performing a fail-over
both on 1) the data plane and 2) the
standard BGP way to establish routing
tables. 

Regarding the data plane, I am wondering
if fail-over results in a lost of
packets for example - I suppose for
example that at least the packets in the
process of being forwarded might be
lost. I believe that providing details
on this may be good. 

If there are any impacts I would like to
understand also in which cases the
decision to perform a failover operation
may result in more harm than the event
that has been over-interpreted. An
hypothetical scenario could be that the
non reception of a BFD packet is
interpreted as a PE being down while it
may not be correct and the PE might have
been simply under stress. A "too fast" fail-over
may over interpreted it and perform a
fail-over. If such things could happen,
an attacker could leverage a micro event
to perform network operation that are
not negligible. Another way to see that
is that an attacker might not have
direct access to the control plan, but
could use the data plan to generate a
stress and sort of control the fail
over. It seems to me that some text
might be welcome to prevent such cases
to happen. This could be guidance for
declaring a tunnel down for example. 

Similarly, it would be good to add some
text regarding the interferences with
the non-fast forwarding fail over when
performed by the standard BGP.
Typically, my impression is that the
fast fail-over mechanism is a local
decision versus the BGP convergence that
is more global. As a result, even with
more time this two mechanisms may come
with different outcomes. One such
example to illustrate my purpose could
be the following. Note that this is only
illustrative of my purpose, and I let
you find and pick on ethat is more
appropriated.   I am thinking of a case
where a standby PE is be shared among
multiple PEs - supposing this situation
could occur.  Typically, if PE_1, PE_2
are shared by PE_a, ..., PE_z. In case
PE_a and PE_b are down, we expect PE_a
to switch to PE_1 and PE_b to switch to
PE_2. It seems to me that BGP would end
up in such situation while a local
decision may end up in PE_a and PE_a to
switch to PE_1. 

</mglt>




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Subject: [bess] bess - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 109
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Dear Mankamana Mishra,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    bess Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Thursday, 19 November 2020, Session III 1600-1800
    Room Name: Room 5 size: 505
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/sessions/bess.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: BGP Enabled ServiceS
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Mankamana Mishra


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict: idr nvo3
 Technology Overlap: spring sfc mpls pim bier pals
 Key Participant Conflict: i2rs





People who must be present:
  Matthew Bocci
  Martin Vigoureux
  Stephane Litkowski
  Mankamana Prasad Mishra

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



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From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" <mankamis@cisco.com>
To: "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IETF 109, call for slots 
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Subject: [bess] IETF 109, call for slots
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 15:55:02 -0700
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To: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [bess] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11
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Hi Daniel,
thank you for the review, comments, and helpful suggestions. I'll work on
answering questions and addressing comments and respond soon.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 5:36 AM Daniel Migault via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Daniel Migault
> Review result: Has Nits
>
> Hi,
>
>
> I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoing
> effort to
> review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These comments were
> written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors.  Document
> authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments just
> like
> any other IETF Last Call comments.  Please note also that my expertise in
> BGP is
> limited, so feel free to take these comments with a pitch of salt.
>
> Review Results: Has Nits
>
> Please find my comments below.
>
> Yours,
> Daniel
>
>
>                   Multicast VPN Fast Upstream Failover
>                  draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11
>
> Abstract
>
>    This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that
>    allow fast failover for upstream failures, by allowing downstream PEs
>    to take into account the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when
>    selecting the Upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow, and extending BGP
>    MVPN routing so that a C-multicast route can be advertised toward a
>    Standby Upstream PE.
>
> <mglt>
> Though it might be just a nit, if MVPN
> designates multicast VPN, it might be
> clarifying to specify the acronym in the
> first sentence. This would later make
> the correlation with BGP MVPN clearer.
>
> </mglt>
>
>
> 1.  Introduction
>
>    In the context of multicast in BGP/MPLS VPNs, it is desirable to
>    provide mechanisms allowing fast recovery of connectivity on
>    different types of failures.  This document addresses failures of
>    elements in the provider network that are upstream of PEs connected
>    to VPN sites with receivers.
>
> <mglt>
> Well I am not familiar with neither BGP
> nor MPLS. It seems that BGP/MLPS IP VPNS
> and MPLS/BGP IP VPNs are both used. I am
> wondering if there is a distinction
> between the two and a preferred way to
> designate these VPNs.  My understanding
> is that the VPN-IPv4 characterizes the
> VPN while MPLS is used by the backbone
> for the transport.  Since the PE are
> connected to the backbone the VPN-IPv4
> needs to be labeled.
>
> </mglt>
>
>    Section 3 describes local procedures allowing an egress PE (a PE
>    connected to a receiver site) to take into account the status of
>    P-tunnels to determine the Upstream Multicast Hop (UMH) for a given
>    (C-S, C-G).  This method does not provide a "fast failover" solution
> <mglt>
> I understand the limitation is due to
> BGP convergence.
>
> </mglt>
>    when used alone, but can be used together with the mechanism
>    described in Section 4 for a "fast failover" solution.
>
>    Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover by
>    not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at recovery
>    time.
>
>    Moreover, section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism, that
>    uses a combination of these two mechanisms.  This approach has
>    similarities with the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve
>    failover times when PIM routing is used in a network given some
>    topology and metric constraints.
>
>
> [...]
>
> 3.1.1.  mVPN Tunnel Root Tracking
>
>    A condition to consider that the status of a P-tunnel is up is that
>    the root of the tunnel, as determined in the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute,
>    is reachable through unicast routing tables.  In this case, the
>    downstream PE can immediately update its UMH when the reachability
>    condition changes.
>
>    That is similar to BGP next-hop tracking for VPN routes, except that
>    the address considered is not the BGP next-hop address, but the root
>    address in the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute.
>
>    If BGP next-hop tracking is done for VPN routes and the root address
>    of a given tunnel happens to be the same as the next-hop address in
>    the BGP A-D Route advertising the tunnel, then checking, in unicast
>    routing tables, whether the tunnel root is reachable, will be
>    unnecessary duplication and thus will not bring any specific benefit.
>
> <mglt>
> It seems to me that x-PMSI address
> designates a different interface than
> the one used by the Tunnel itself. If
> that is correct, such mechanisms seems
> to assume that one equipment up on one
> interface will be up on the other
> interfaces. I have the impression that a
> configuration change in a PE may end up
> in the P-tunnel being down, while the PE
> still being reachable though the x-PMSI
> Tunnel attribute. If that is a possible
> scenario, the current mechanisms may not
> provide more efficient mechanism than
> then those of the standard BGP.
>
> Similarly, it is assumed the tunnel is
> either up or down and the determination
> of not being up if being down.  I am not
> convinced that the two only states.
> Typically services under DDoS may be
> down for a small amount of time. While
> this affects the network, there is not
> always a clear cut between the PE being
> up or down.
> </mglt>
>
>
> [...]
>
> 3.1.6.  BFD Discriminator Attribute
>
>    P-tunnel status may be derived from the status of a multipoint BFD
>    session [RFC8562] whose discriminator is advertised along with an
>    x-PMSI A-D Route.
>
>    This document defines the format and ways of using a new BGP
>    attribute called the "BFD Discriminator".  It is an optional
>    transitive BGP attribute.  In Section 7.2, IANA is requested to
>    allocate the codepoint value (TBA2).  The format of this attribute is
>    shown in Figure 1.
>
> <mglt>
> I feel that the sentence "In Section ...
> TBA2)." should be removed.
>
> </mglt>
>
>
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |    BFD Mode   |                  Reserved                     |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |                       BFD Discriminator                       |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       ~                         Optional TLVs                         ~
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>
>             Figure 1: Format of the BFD Discriminator Attribute
>
>    Where:
>
>       BFD Mode field is the one octet long.  This specification defines
>       the P2MP BFD Session as value 1 Section 7.2.
>
>       Reserved field is three octets long, and the value MUST be zeroed
>       on transmission and ignored on receipt.
>
>       BFD Discriminator field is four octets long.
>
>
>
>
>
> Morin, et al.             Expires April 5, 2021                 [Page 7]
>
> Internet-Draft         mVPN Fast Upstream Failover          October 2020
>
>
>       Optional TLVs is the optional variable-length field that MAY be
>       used in the BFD Discriminator attribute for future extensions.
>       TLVs MAY be included in a sequential or nested manner.  To allow
>       for TLV nesting, it is advised to define a new TLV as a variable-
>       length object.  Figure 2 presents the Optional TLV format TLV that
>       consists of:
>
>       *  one octet-long field of TLV 's Type value (Section 7.3)
>
>       *  one octet-long field of the length of the Value field in octets
>
>       *  variable length Value field.
>
>       The length of a TLV MUST be multiple of four octets.
> <mglt>
> I am wondering why the constraint on the
> length is not mentioned in the paragraph
> associated to the field - as opposed to
> a  separate paragraph.
>
> </mglt>
>
> [..]
>
> 8.  Security Considerations
>
>    This document describes procedures based on [RFC6513] and [RFC6514]
>    and hence shares the security considerations respectively represented
>    in these specifications.
>
>    This document uses p2mp BFD, as defined in [RFC8562], which, in turn,
>    is based on [RFC5880].  Security considerations relevant to each
>    protocol are discussed in the respective protocol specifications.  An
>    implementation that supports this specification MUST use a mechanism
>    to control the maximum number of p2mp BFD sessions that can be active
>    at the same time.
>
> <mglt>
> At a high level view - or at least my
> interpretation of it - the document
> proposes a mechanism based on BFD to
> detect fault in the path.  Upon a fault
> detection a fail-over operation is
> instructed using BGP. This rocedure is
> expected to perform a faster fail-over
> than traditional BGP convergence on
> maintaining routing tables. Once the
> fail over has been performed, BFD is
> confirms the new path is "legitimate"
> and works.
>
> It seems correct to me that the current
> protocol relies on BGP / BFD security.
> That said, having BFD authentication
> based on MD5 or SHA1 may suggest that
> stronger primitives be recommended.
> While this does not concerns the current
> document, it seems to me that the
> information might be relayed to routing
> ADs.
>
> What remains unclear to me - and I
> assume this might be due to my lake or
> expertise in routing area - is the impact
> associated to performing a fail-over
> both on 1) the data plane and 2) the
> standard BGP way to establish routing
> tables.
>
> Regarding the data plane, I am wondering
> if fail-over results in a lost of
> packets for example - I suppose for
> example that at least the packets in the
> process of being forwarded might be
> lost. I believe that providing details
> on this may be good.
>
> If there are any impacts I would like to
> understand also in which cases the
> decision to perform a failover operation
> may result in more harm than the event
> that has been over-interpreted. An
> hypothetical scenario could be that the
> non reception of a BFD packet is
> interpreted as a PE being down while it
> may not be correct and the PE might have
> been simply under stress. A "too fast" fail-over
> may over interpreted it and perform a
> fail-over. If such things could happen,
> an attacker could leverage a micro event
> to perform network operation that are
> not negligible. Another way to see that
> is that an attacker might not have
> direct access to the control plan, but
> could use the data plan to generate a
> stress and sort of control the fail
> over. It seems to me that some text
> might be welcome to prevent such cases
> to happen. This could be guidance for
> declaring a tunnel down for example.
>
> Similarly, it would be good to add some
> text regarding the interferences with
> the non-fast forwarding fail over when
> performed by the standard BGP.
> Typically, my impression is that the
> fast fail-over mechanism is a local
> decision versus the BGP convergence that
> is more global. As a result, even with
> more time this two mechanisms may come
> with different outcomes. One such
> example to illustrate my purpose could
> be the following. Note that this is only
> illustrative of my purpose, and I let
> you find and pick on ethat is more
> appropriated.   I am thinking of a case
> where a standby PE is be shared among
> multiple PEs - supposing this situation
> could occur.  Typically, if PE_1, PE_2
> are shared by PE_a, ..., PE_z. In case
> PE_a and PE_b are down, we expect PE_a
> to switch to PE_1 and PE_b to switch to
> PE_2. It seems to me that BGP would end
> up in such situation while a local
> decision may end up in PE_a and PE_a to
> switch to PE_1.
>
> </mglt>
>
>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Daniel,<div>thank you for the review, comments, and hel=
pful suggestions. I&#39;ll work on answering questions and addressing comme=
nts and respond soon.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div=
></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 5:36 AM Daniel Migault via Datatracker &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewer: Daniel Migault<br>
Review result: Has Nits<br>
<br>
Hi, <br>
<br>
<br>
I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate&#39;s ongoing =
effort to<br>
review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=C2=A0 These comments=
 were<br>
written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors.=C2=A0 Doc=
ument<br>
authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments just l=
ike<br>
any other IETF Last Call comments.=C2=A0 Please note also that my expertise=
 in BGP is<br>
limited, so feel free to take these comments with a pitch of salt.=C2=A0 <b=
r>
<br>
Review Results: Has Nits<br>
<br>
Please find my comments below. <br>
<br>
Yours, <br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Multicast VP=
N Fast Upstream Failover<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-be=
ss-mvpn-fast-failover-11<br>
<br>
Abstract<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures =
that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0allow fast failover for upstream failures, by allowing downstr=
eam PEs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to take into account the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels=
) when<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0selecting the Upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow, and extend=
ing BGP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0MVPN routing so that a C-multicast route can be advertised tow=
ard a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Standby Upstream PE.<br>
<br>
&lt;mglt&gt;<br>
Though it might be just a nit, if MVPN<br>
designates multicast VPN, it might be<br>
clarifying to specify the acronym in the<br>
first sentence. This would later make<br>
the correlation with BGP MVPN clearer. <br>
<br>
&lt;/mglt&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
1.=C2=A0 Introduction<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the context of multicast in BGP/MPLS VPNs, it is desirable =
to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provide mechanisms allowing fast recovery of connectivity on<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0different types of failures.=C2=A0 This document addresses fai=
lures of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0elements in the provider network that are upstream of PEs conn=
ected<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to VPN sites with receivers.<br>
<br>
&lt;mglt&gt;<br>
Well I am not familiar with neither BGP<br>
nor MPLS. It seems that BGP/MLPS IP VPNS<br>
and MPLS/BGP IP VPNs are both used. I am<br>
wondering if there is a distinction<br>
between the two and a preferred way to<br>
designate these VPNs.=C2=A0 My understanding<br>
is that the VPN-IPv4 characterizes the<br>
VPN while MPLS is used by the backbone<br>
for the transport.=C2=A0 Since the PE are<br>
connected to the backbone the VPN-IPv4<br>
needs to be labeled. <br>
<br>
&lt;/mglt&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 3 describes local procedures allowing an egress PE (a =
PE<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0connected to a receiver site) to take into account the status =
of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0P-tunnels to determine the Upstream Multicast Hop (UMH) for a =
given<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(C-S, C-G).=C2=A0 This method does not provide a &quot;fast fa=
ilover&quot; solution<br>
&lt;mglt&gt;<br>
I understand the limitation is due to<br>
BGP convergence. <br>
<br>
&lt;/mglt&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when used alone, but can be used together with the mechanism<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 4 for a &quot;fast failover&quot; solutio=
n.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up fail=
over by<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at re=
covery<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0time.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Moreover, section 5 describes a &quot;hot leaf standby&quot; m=
echanism, that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0uses a combination of these two mechanisms.=C2=A0 This approac=
h has<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0similarities with the solution described in [RFC7431] to impro=
ve<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0failover times when PIM routing is used in a network given som=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0topology and metric constraints.<br>
<br>
<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
3.1.1.=C2=A0 mVPN Tunnel Root Tracking<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A condition to consider that the status of a P-tunnel is up is=
 that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the root of the tunnel, as determined in the x-PMSI Tunnel att=
ribute,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0is reachable through unicast routing tables.=C2=A0 In this cas=
e, the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0downstream PE can immediately update its UMH when the reachabi=
lity<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0condition changes.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is similar to BGP next-hop tracking for VPN routes, excep=
t that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the address considered is not the BGP next-hop address, but th=
e root<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0address in the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If BGP next-hop tracking is done for VPN routes and the root a=
ddress<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a given tunnel happens to be the same as the next-hop addre=
ss in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the BGP A-D Route advertising the tunnel, then checking, in un=
icast<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing tables, whether the tunnel root is reachable, will be<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0unnecessary duplication and thus will not bring any specific b=
enefit.<br>
<br>
&lt;mglt&gt;<br>
It seems to me that x-PMSI address<br>
designates a different interface than<br>
the one used by the Tunnel itself. If<br>
that is correct, such mechanisms seems<br>
to assume that one equipment up on one<br>
interface will be up on the other<br>
interfaces. I have the impression that a<br>
configuration change in a PE may end up<br>
in the P-tunnel being down, while the PE<br>
still being reachable though the x-PMSI<br>
Tunnel attribute. If that is a possible<br>
scenario, the current mechanisms may not<br>
provide more efficient mechanism than<br>
then those of the standard BGP.<br>
<br>
Similarly, it is assumed the tunnel is<br>
either up or down and the determination<br>
of not being up if being down.=C2=A0 I am not<br>
convinced that the two only states.<br>
Typically services under DDoS may be<br>
down for a small amount of time. While<br>
this affects the network, there is not<br>
always a clear cut between the PE being<br>
up or down. <br>
&lt;/mglt&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
3.1.6.=C2=A0 BFD Discriminator Attribute<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0P-tunnel status may be derived from the status of a multipoint=
 BFD<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0session [RFC8562] whose discriminator is advertised along with=
 an<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0x-PMSI A-D Route.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines the format and ways of using a new BGP<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0attribute called the &quot;BFD Discriminator&quot;.=C2=A0 It i=
s an optional<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transitive BGP attribute.=C2=A0 In Section 7.2, IANA is reques=
ted to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0allocate the codepoint value (TBA2).=C2=A0 The format of this =
attribute is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0shown in Figure 1.<br>
<br>
&lt;mglt&gt;<br>
I feel that the sentence &quot;In Section ...<br>
TBA2).&quot; should be removed.<br>
<br>
&lt;/mglt&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 =
4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD Mode=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reserved=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BFD Discriminator=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ~=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Optional TLVs=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0~<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 1: Format of the BFD Discr=
iminator Attribute<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Where:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD Mode field is the one octet long.=C2=A0 This speci=
fication defines<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the P2MP BFD Session as value 1 Section 7.2.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reserved field is three octets long, and the value MUS=
T be zeroed<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 on transmission and ignored on receipt.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFD Discriminator field is four octets long.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Morin, et al.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Expires April =
5, 2021=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Page =
7]<br>
<br>
Internet-Draft=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mVPN Fast Upstream Failover=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 October 2020<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Optional TLVs is the optional variable-length field th=
at MAY be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 used in the BFD Discriminator attribute for future ext=
ensions.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLVs MAY be included in a sequential or nested manner.=
=C2=A0 To allow<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for TLV nesting, it is advised to define a new TLV as =
a variable-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 length object.=C2=A0 Figure 2 presents the Optional TL=
V format TLV that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consists of:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 one octet-long field of TLV &#39;s Type value =
(Section 7.3)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 one octet-long field of the length of the Valu=
e field in octets<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=C2=A0 variable length Value field.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The length of a TLV MUST be multiple of four octets.<b=
r>
&lt;mglt&gt;<br>
I am wondering why the constraint on the<br>
length is not mentioned in the paragraph<br>
associated to the field - as opposed to<br>
a=C2=A0 separate paragraph. <br>
<br>
&lt;/mglt&gt;<br>
<br>
[..]<br>
<br>
8.=C2=A0 Security Considerations<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes procedures based on [RFC6513] and [RFC=
6514]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and hence shares the security considerations respectively repr=
esented<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in these specifications.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document uses p2mp BFD, as defined in [RFC8562], which, i=
n turn,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0is based on [RFC5880].=C2=A0 Security considerations relevant =
to each<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol are discussed in the respective protocol specificatio=
ns.=C2=A0 An<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation that supports this specification MUST use a mec=
hanism<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to control the maximum number of p2mp BFD sessions that can be=
 active<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0at the same time.<br>
<br>
&lt;mglt&gt;<br>
At a high level view - or at least my<br>
interpretation of it - the document<br>
proposes a mechanism based on BFD to<br>
detect fault in the path.=C2=A0 Upon a fault<br>
detection a fail-over operation is<br>
instructed using BGP. This rocedure is<br>
expected to perform a faster fail-over<br>
than traditional BGP convergence on<br>
maintaining routing tables. Once the<br>
fail over has been performed, BFD is<br>
confirms the new path is &quot;legitimate&quot;<br>
and works.<br>
<br>
It seems correct to me that the current<br>
protocol relies on BGP / BFD security.<br>
That said, having BFD authentication<br>
based on MD5 or SHA1 may suggest that<br>
stronger primitives be recommended.<br>
While this does not concerns the current<br>
document, it seems to me that the<br>
information might be relayed to routing<br>
ADs. <br>
<br>
What remains unclear to me - and I<br>
assume this might be due to my lake or<br>
expertise in routing area - is the impact<br>
associated to performing a fail-over<br>
both on 1) the data plane and 2) the<br>
standard BGP way to establish routing<br>
tables. <br>
<br>
Regarding the data plane, I am wondering<br>
if fail-over results in a lost of<br>
packets for example - I suppose for<br>
example that at least the packets in the<br>
process of being forwarded might be<br>
lost. I believe that providing details<br>
on this may be good. <br>
<br>
If there are any impacts I would like to<br>
understand also in which cases the<br>
decision to perform a failover operation<br>
may result in more harm than the event<br>
that has been over-interpreted. An<br>
hypothetical scenario could be that the<br>
non reception of a BFD packet is<br>
interpreted as a PE being down while it<br>
may not be correct and the PE might have<br>
been simply under stress. A &quot;too fast&quot; fail-over<br>
may over interpreted it and perform a<br>
fail-over. If such things could happen,<br>
an attacker could leverage a micro event<br>
to perform network operation that are<br>
not negligible. Another way to see that<br>
is that an attacker might not have<br>
direct access to the control plan, but<br>
could use the data plan to generate a<br>
stress and sort of control the fail<br>
over. It seems to me that some text<br>
might be welcome to prevent such cases<br>
to happen. This could be guidance for<br>
declaring a tunnel down for example. <br>
<br>
Similarly, it would be good to add some<br>
text regarding the interferences with<br>
the non-fast forwarding fail over when<br>
performed by the standard BGP.<br>
Typically, my impression is that the<br>
fast fail-over mechanism is a local<br>
decision versus the BGP convergence that<br>
is more global. As a result, even with<br>
more time this two mechanisms may come<br>
with different outcomes. One such<br>
example to illustrate my purpose could<br>
be the following. Note that this is only<br>
illustrative of my purpose, and I let<br>
you find and pick on ethat is more<br>
appropriated.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I am thinking of a case<br>
where a standby PE is be shared among<br>
multiple PEs - supposing this situation<br>
could occur.=C2=A0 Typically, if PE_1, PE_2<br>
are shared by PE_a, ..., PE_z. In case<br>
PE_a and PE_b are down, we expect PE_a<br>
to switch to PE_1 and PE_b to switch to<br>
PE_2. It seems to me that BGP would end<br>
up in such situation while a local<br>
decision may end up in PE_a and PE_a to<br>
switch to PE_1. <br>
<br>
&lt;/mglt&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000aefca805b29ad29d--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Fault Management for EVPN networks
        Authors         : Vengada Prasad Govindan
                          Mudigonda Mallik
                          Ali Sajassi
                          Gregory Mirsky
                          Donald Eastlake
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-bfd-01.txt
	Pages           : 22
	Date            : 2020-10-26

Abstract:
   This document specifies proactive, in-band network OAM mechanisms to
   detect loss of continuity and miss-connection faults that affect
   unicast and multi-destination paths (used by Broadcast, Unknown
   Unicast, and Multicast traffic) in an Ethernet VPN (EVPN) network.
   The mechanisms specified in the draft are based on the widely adopted
   Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) protocol.



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The BESS WG has placed draft-parekh-bess-mvpn-evpn-sr-p2mp in state
Candidate for WG Adoption (entered by Stephane Litkowski)

The document is available at
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Extended Mobility Procedures for EVPN-IRB
        Authors         : Neeraj Malhotra
                          Ali Sajassi
                          Aparna Pattekar
                          Avinash Lingala
                          Jorge Rabadan
                          John Drake
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-evpn-irb-extended-mobility-04.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2020-10-27

Abstract:
   Procedure to handle host mobility in a layer 2 Network with EVPN
   control plane is defined as part of RFC 7432. EVPN has since evolved
   to find wider applicability across various IRB use cases that include
   distributing both MAC and IP reachability via a common EVPN control
   plane. MAC Mobility procedures defined in RFC 7432 are extensible to
   IRB use cases if a fixed 1:1 mapping between VM IP and MAC is assumed
   across VM moves. Generic mobility support for IP and MAC that allows
   these bindings to change across moves is required to support a
   broader set of EVPN IRB use cases, and requires further
   consideration. EVPN all-active multi-homing further introduces
   scenarios that require additional consideration from mobility
   perspective. This document enumerates a set of design considerations
   applicable to mobility across these EVPN IRB use cases and defines
   generic sequence number assignment procedures to address these IRB
   use cases.


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Subject: Re: [bess] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11
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Hi Adrian,
many thanks for the review and comments. Please find my notes in-line below
tagged GIM>>.
Attached, please find the diff highlighting the updates and new working
version of the draft.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 1:09 PM Adrian Farrel via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Adrian Farrel
> Review result: Has Issues
>
> Hello,
>
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
> The
> Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts
> as
> they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
> request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing
> ADs.
> For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
> would
> be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
> comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion
> or by
> updating the draft.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt
> Reviewer: Adrian Farrel
> Review Date: 2020-10-18
> IETF LC End Date: 2020-10-19
> Intended Status: Proposed Standard
>
> ==Summary:==
>
> I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be
> resolved
> before publication.
>
> ==Comments:==
>
> This document is fairly easy to read, but demands a thorough understanding
> of
> RFCs 6513 and 6514. That is not unreasonable.
>
> I also hope that the IDR working group has had a good opportunity to review
> this work.
>
> ==Major Issues:==
>
> None
>
> ==Minor Issues:==
>
> Abstract
>
> I think the Abstract should mention explicitly that this document
> extends BGP (and how).
>
GIM>> Update the Abstract to emphasize introduced extensions to BGP:
OLD TEXT:
   This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that
   allow fast failover for upstream failures, by allowing downstream PEs
   to take into account the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when
   selecting the Upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow, and extending BGP
   MVPN routing so that a C-multicast route can be advertised toward a
   Standby Upstream PE.
NEW TEXT:
   This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that
   allow fast failover for upstream failures by allowing downstream PEs
   to consider the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when selecting
   the Upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow.  The fast failover is
   enabled by using RFC 8562 BFD for Multipoint Networks and the new BGP
   Attribute - BFD Discriminator.  Also, the document introduces a new
   BGP Community, Standby PE, extending BGP MVPN routing so that a
   C-multicast route can be advertised toward a Standby Upstream PE.
>
>
> ---
>
> Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined
> in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn't see anything similar in sections
> 4 and 5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since
> this document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures
> are optional.
>
> Actually it would be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in
> with "legacy" deployments, and how they are all optional procedures. I
> think that needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small
> section of its own (maybe between 6 and 7).
>
GIM>> Thank you for the suggestion. I've updated the Introduction in this
way:
OLD TEXT:
   Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover by
   not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at recovery
   time.

   Moreover, section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism, that
   uses a combination of these two mechanisms.  This approach has
   similarities with the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve
   failover times when PIM routing is used in a network given some
   topology and metric constraints.
NEW TEXT:
   Section 4 describes optional protocol extensions that can speed up
   failover by not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange
   at recovery time.

   Moreover, Section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism that can
   be used to improve failover time in MVPN.  The approach combines
   mechanisms defined in Section 3 and Section 4 has similarities with
   the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve failover times when
   PIM routing is used in a network given some topology and metric
   constraints.

I think that Section 5 is intended to explain how introduced BGP extensions
and their use described in Section 3 and Section 4 enable operators to
provide protection for multicast services. Would you suggest adding a new
text to the section to highlight particular aspects of introducing
protection in MVPN?


> ---
>
> It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel
> is up.  You don't say, however, if being unable to determine that the
> P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining that the
> P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about the "tunnel's
> state is not known to be down".)
>
GIM>> This method, as noted in the document, is similar to BGP next-hop
tracking, may be computationally intensive, and cannot be run frequently.
So, in periods between checking whether the root address in the x-PMSI
Tunnel attribute is reachable the state is "not known to be down".

>
> By the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses
> (up and down) because that could make a big difference?
>
GIM>> I think that the document then needs to discuss what impact detection
time has on MVPN. For example, if the detection time is in single-digit
seconds, a two-state model can be used. But would it be a useful model if
the detection time is in tens of seconds? Should a "not known to be down"
state be introduced?

>
> Note that 3.1.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,
> but not ways to determine whether the tunnel is down.
>
GIM>> In this section the state of a P-tunnel is equated with the state of
the last link of that tunnel. The document notes that if the link is Up,
then the P-tunnel is considered down. It is implied, that if it is
determined that the link is Down, then the state of the P-tunnel is
considered Down. Would you recommend adding an explanation to the document?

>
> To reiterate, "I don't know if it is up" is not the same as "I know it
> is down."
>
GIM>> Indeed. It is analogous to "it was Up the last time I've checked on
it". It meant to be used when the interval between checking is significant.

>
> ---
>
> 3.1.2
>
>    Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such as MPLS FRR
>    [RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires careful consideration
>    and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link and the
>    tunnel.  In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection
>    methods at the same time.
>
> OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)
>
> I think you have to give implementation guidance.
>
GIM>> I agree, an operational recommendation could be helpful. Usually, in
case of multi-layered protection, detection intervals on the higher layer
are 10 times of guaranteed restoration time of the lower layer. Would you
recommend adding this to the text as an example of a deployment?

>
> ---
>
> All of 3.1.x are timid about the use of the mechanisms they describe.
>
> I think that the end of 3.1 should say that an implementation may choose
> to use any of these mechanisms to determine the status of the P-tunnel.
>
GIM>> Will the following text reflect that:
NEW TEXT:
   An implementation may support any combination of the methods
   described in this section and provide a network operator with control
   to choose which one to use in the particular deployment.


>
> This is quite stark, however, in 3.1.3 where you have...
>
>    When signaling state for a P2MP TE LSP is removed (e.g., if the
>    ingress of the P2MP TE LSP sends a PathTear message) or the P2MP TE
>    LSP changes state from Up to Down as determined by procedures in
>    [RFC4875], the status of the corresponding P-tunnel SHOULD be re-
>    evaluated.  If the P-tunnel transitions from Up to Down state, the
>    Upstream PE that is the ingress of the P-tunnel SHOULD NOT be
>    considered a valid UMH.
>
> The use of SHOULD and SHOULD NOT is puzzling. Is this "if this mechanism
> is being used, the status SHOULD..." or is it "if a P2MP MPLS-TE tunnel
> is being used, this mechanism SHOULD be used"? In the former case, the
> SHOULD is presumably a MUST. In the latter case, why is this worthy of
> BCP 14 language when:
> - this whole document is optional
> - the mechanisms in 3.1.x are all optional
>
> But 3.1.4, 3.1.5, 3.1.6, 3.1.7 also use BCP 14 language. I'm pretty sure
> you mean "if this mechanism is being used..."
>
> In case you determine to keep any use of "SHOULD" you need to describe
> under what circumstances an implementation might diverge from this
> strong advice.
>
GIM>> Thank you for pointing this ambiguity that, upon careful reading,
could be confusing. You're right, it is meant to follow the "if this
mechanism is used" clause. But once we define the mechanism itself, the
normative language to use here is MUST/MUST NOT. Below is the updated text
for your consideration:
NEW TEXT:
   When using this method and if the signaling state for a P2MP TE LSP
   is removed (e.g., if the ingress of the P2MP TE LSP sends a PathTear
   message) or the P2MP TE LSP changes state from Up to Down as
   determined by procedures in [RFC4875], the status of the
   corresponding P-tunnel MUST be re-evaluated.  If the P-tunnel
   transitions from Up to Down state, the Upstream PE that is the
   ingress of the P-tunnel MUST NOT be considered a valid UMH.

>
> ---
>
> 3.1.6
>
> What should I do if I don't recognise or support the setting of the BFD
> Mode field?
>
GIM>> I think that the same handling applies as for the malformed attribute:
   If malformed, the UPDATE
   message SHALL be handled using the approach of Attribute Discard per
   [RFC7606].
I propose to extend the applicability of the rule with the following update
to the sentence:
NEW TEXT:
   The BFD Discriminator attribute MUST be considered malformed if its
   length is not a non-zero multiple of four.  If the setting of the BFD
   Mode field is not recognized or not supported, or the attribute
   considered malformed, the UPDATE message SHALL be handled using the
   approach of Attribute Discard per [RFC7606].

>
> ---
>
> 4.1
>
>    The normal and the standby C-multicast routes must have their Local
>    Preference attribute adjusted
>
> Should this be "MUST"?
>
GIM>> I think that is not an actionable 'must'. It could be expressed as

The Local Preference attribute of the normal and the standby C-multicast
route needs to be adjusted.

Would you recommend using the re-worded passage?

>
> ---
>
> 7.1
>
>    IANA is requested to allocate the BGP "Standby PE" community value
>    (TBA1) from the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) Well-known Communities
>    registry.
>
> There are three ranges. You need to tell IANA which range to use.
> Presumably not Private Use (because they are not assigned). But do you
> want an assignment from the FCFS range or the Standards Action range?
>
GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the missing detail. FCFS range is fine. The
updated text:
NEW TEXT:
   IANA is requested to allocate the BGP "Standby PE" community value
   (TBA1) from the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) Well-known Communities
   registry using the First Come First Served registration policy.

>
> ==Nits:==
>
> Abstract
>
> Notwithstanding the terminology difference between "upstream" and
> "Upstream" defined in Section 2, the distinction made in the text
> here is unclear. I think that lowercase "upstream" would not be
> confusing in this text.
>
GIM>> Agree. s/Upstream/upstream/

>
> ---
>
> Requirements Language
>
> Please move this to a new section 2.1 to be consistent with the RFC
> Editor style guide.
>
GIM>> Done.

>
> ---
>
> Section 1
>
>    In the context of multicast in BGP/MPLS VPNs
>
> That could use a reference.
>
GIM>> Added reference to RFC 6513.

>
> ---
>
> Section 1
>
> I don't think the description of what is in which section of the
> document is quite accurate. Maybe the document has moved on? In any
> case, a more specific mention of which protocols are extended/modified
> would be good.
>
GIM>> I've updated the section to be more specific:
NEW TEXT:
   Section 3 describes local procedures allowing an egress PE (a PE
   connected to a receiver site) to take into account the status of
   P-tunnels to determine the Upstream Multicast Hop (UMH) for a given
   (C-S, C-G).  One of the optional methods uses [RFC8562] and the new
   BGP Attribute - BFD Discriminator.  None of these methods provide a
   "fast failover" solution when used alone, but can be used together
   with the mechanism described in Section 4 for a "fast failover"
   solution.

   Section 4 describes an optional BGP extension, a new Standby PE
   Community. that can speed up failover by not requiring any multicast
   VPN routing message exchange at recovery time.

>
> I am pretty sure that the reader has no hope of understanding this work
> without having first read and absorbed RFC 6513 and RFC 6514. It would
> be worth adding a short statement like "It is assumed that the reader is
> familiar with the workings of multicast MPLS/BGP IP VPNs as described in
> [RFC6513] and [RFC6514]."
>
GIM>> Thank you for the suggestion. Indeed, I kept both RFC open while
editing the draft.

>
> ---
>
> Section 2
>
>    x-PMSI: I-PMSI or S-PMSI
>
> This is too brief!  I think you need.
>
>    PMSI: P-Multicast Service Interface
>    I-PMSI: Inclusive PMSI
>    S-PMSI: Selective PMSI
>    x-PMSI: Either an I-PMSI or an S-PMSI
>
> It would be also good to list the other imported terms:
>
>    P-tunnel: Provider-Tunnels
>    UMH: Upstream Multicast Hop
>
> I think you might collect some of the abreviations into a table in this
> section. MVPN, RD, RP, NLRI, VRF, EC, AC, MED, ...
>
GIM>> Thank you for the suggested expansions. I've moved them all to a new
Acronyms section (except for EC and AC) (not in the alphabetical order):
2.3.  Acronyms

   PMSI: P-Multicast Service Interface

   I-PMSI: Inclusive PMSI

   S-PMSI: Selective PMSI

   x-PMSI: Either an I-PMSI or an S-PMSI

   P-tunnel: Provider-Tunnels

   UMH: Upstream Multicast Hop

   VPN: Virtual Private Network

   MVPN: Multicast VPN

   RD: Route Distinguisher

   RP: Rendezvous Point

   NLRI: Network Layer Reachability Information

   VRF: VPN Routing and Forwarding Table

   MED: Multi-Exit Discriminator

>
> ---
>
> Section 3
>
> s/Section 5.1 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1 of [RFC6513]/
>
GIM>> Done.

>
> ---
>
> Section 3 has
>
>    selection, which will result in the downstream PE to failover to the
>    Upstream PE, which is next in the list of candidates.
>
> The language is a little unclear. Maybe...
>
>    selection.  This will result in the downstream PE failing over to
>    use the next Upstream PE in the list of candidates.
>
GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text it is much better than what in the
document. Done.

>
> ---
>
> Section 3 has
>
>    Because of that, procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513]
>    MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.
>
> Aren't those procedures already mandatory? That section of 6513 already
> uses "MUST" (although it oes go on to say that it might not be possible
> to apply the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -
> peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder whether
> you are saying "this case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.1
> of [RFC6513]" or are you actually defining new normative behaviour?
>
GIM>> I think that the use of lower case 'must' is ambiguous and somewhat
confusing. You are right, the intention is to refer to Section 9.1.1 as the
mandatory behavior. But neither 9.1.2, nor 9.1.3 use the normative
language. What would you recommend?

>
> ---
>
> Section 3
>
> s/tunnel' state/tunnel's state/
>
GIM>> Fixed

>
> ---
>
> Section 3.1 has
>
>    The
>    optional procedures proposed in this section also allow that all
>    downstream PEs don't apply the same rules to define what the status
>    of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)
>
> A little confusing. Maybe...
>
>    The
>    optional procedures described in this section also handle the case
>    the downstream PEs do not all apply the same rules to define what the
>    status of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)
>
GIM>> Great suggestion and gladly applied to the text.

>
> ---
>
> 3.1.2
>
>    A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the last-
>    hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.
>
> I like that you are using "Up" rather than "up". Maybe change throughout
> the document to use "Up" and "Down"?
>
GIM>> I went through the document and uppercased when referring to the
status or state. I hope I've got them all.

>
> ---
>
> 3.1.6
>
> s/TLV 's Type/TLV's Type/
>
GIM>> Got it!

>
> ---
>
> 3.1.6.1
>
> You use "p2mp BFD Session" rather than using "P2MP". This looks
> intentional but also looks really odd. Section 7.2 uses "P2MP
> BFD Session".
>
GIM>> Changed to P2MP through the document (also added to the Acronyms)

>
> ---
>
> 3.1.7
>
> s/section 6.8.17 [RFC5880]/Section 6.8.17 of [RFC5880]/
>
> ---
>
> 4.
>
> s/section 5.1.3 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1.3 of [RFC6513]/
>
GIM>> Done.

>
> OLD
>  VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6) routes
> NEW
>  VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6)
> END
>
GIM>> Thank you.

>
> ---
>
> 4.
>
> s/would refer to/refers to/
>
GIM>> Thanks!

>
> ---
>
> 4.1
>
>    As long as C-S is reachable via the Primary
>    Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the Primary Upstream PE.
>
> This sentence doesn't seem to be complete. What is the consequence of
> this condition?
>
GIM>> It suppose to be
   As long as
   C-S is reachable via the Primary Upstream PE, the Upstream PE is the
   Primary Upstream PE.
Is it better?

>
> ---
>
> 4.1
>
>    o  SHOULD carry the "Standby PE" BGP Community (this is a new BGP
>       Community.
>
> I think this needs guidance on when to not include the Community
>
GIM>> The question made me think that for the implementation that supports
this specification there's no reason not to include the Standby PE
Community. s/SHOULD/MUST/

>
> ---
>
> 4.1
>
>    Also, a LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST be set to zero.
>
> Maybe...
>
>    The LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST also be set to zero.
>
GIM>> Agree.

>
> ---
>
> 4.2
>
> You might want to tidy up whether you use "a)" and "b)" or "(a)" and
> "(b)"
>
GIM>> I opted for 'a)' and 'b)'

>
> ---
>
> 4.4.1
>
> s/Additionally, to?Additional to/
>
GIM>> Got it

>
> ---
>
> 4.4.2
>
>    When an Upstream ASBR receives a C-multicast route, and at least one
>    of the RTs of the route matches one of the ASBR Import RT, the ASBR,
>    that supports this specification, MUST locate an Inter-AS I-PMSI A-D
>    Route whose RD and Source AS respectively match the RD and Source AS
>    carried in the C-multicast route.  If the match is found, and the
>    C-multicast route carries the Standby PE BGP Community, then the ASBR
>    MUST perform as follows:
>
> Is that "MUST try to locate"? Because it seems to be countenanced that
> the attempt could fail.
>
GIM>> Thank you for pointing this out. Yes, the lookup might fail.
s/MUST/MUST try to/

>
> ---
>
> 4.4.2
>
> s/MED attribute set of/MED attribute set to/
>
GIM>> Thank you!

>
> ---
>
> 5.
>
>    The mechanisms defined in sections Section 4 and Section 3 can be
>    used together as follows.
>
> That's an XML feature. If you do
> "...defined in <xref target="section4"/><xref target="section3"/>..."
> then XML2RFC will sort things out for you.  Seems to be OK a couple of
> paragraphs later.
>
GIM>> Cleaned up

>
> ---
>
> 5.
>
> s/semantic for is that/semantic is that/
>
GIM>> Done

>
> ---
>
> 6.
>
>    Multicast VPN specifications [RFC6513] impose that a PE only forwards
>    to CEs the packets coming from the expected Upstream PE
>    (Section 9.1).
>
> There being no section 9.1 in this document, I think you mean...
>    "(see Section 9.1 of [RFC6513])."
>
GIM>> Yes, added the reference to RFC 6513

>
> Please also be clear in the next paragraph whether the references are to
> sections of this document (no need to qualify) or sections of RFC 6513
> (important to qualify).
>
GIM>> Thank you for the question. Both references are to sections in this
document.

>
> ---
>
> 6.
>
> OLD
>    We highlight the reader's attention to the fact that the respect of
> NEW
>    We draw the reader's attention to the fact that the respect of
> END
>
GIM>> Thank you. "Highlighting" attention - awkward.

--000000000000ab710405b2b24108
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adrian,<div>many thanks for the review=
 and=C2=A0comments. Please find my notes in-line=C2=A0below tagged GIM&gt;&=
gt;.</div><div>Attached, please find the diff highlighting the updates and =
new working version of the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><d=
iv>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 1:09 PM Adrian Farrel via Datatracker =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewer: Adrian Fa=
rrel<br>
Review result: Has Issues<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th=
e<br>
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts a=
s<br>
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special<=
br>
request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing =
ADs.<br>
For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see<br>
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/Rt=
gDir</a><br>
<br>
Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo=
uld<br>
be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call<b=
r>
comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or=
 by<br>
updating the draft.<br>
<br>
Document: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11.txt<br>
Reviewer: Adrian Farrel<br>
Review Date: 2020-10-18<br>
IETF LC End Date: 2020-10-19<br>
Intended Status: Proposed Standard<br>
<br>
=3D=3DSummary:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resol=
ved<br>
before publication.<br>
<br>
=3D=3DComments:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
This document is fairly easy to read, but demands a thorough understanding =
of<br>
RFCs 6513 and 6514. That is not unreasonable.<br>
<br>
I also hope that the IDR working group has had a good opportunity to review=
<br>
this work.<br>
<br>
=3D=3DMajor Issues:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
None<br>
<br>
=3D=3DMinor Issues:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
Abstract<br>
<br>
I think the Abstract should mention explicitly that this document<br>
extends BGP (and how).<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Update the Abstract=
 to emphasize introduced extensions to BGP:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0allow fast failover for upstream failures, by allowing downs=
tream PEs<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0to take into account the status of Provider-Tunne=
ls (P-tunnels) when<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0selecting the Upstream PE for a VPN mul=
ticast flow, and extending BGP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MVPN routing so that a C-mul=
ticast route can be advertised toward a<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Standby Upstre=
am PE.</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines mul=
ticast VPN extensions and procedures that</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0allow fast fail=
over for upstream failures by allowing downstream PEs<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0to co=
nsider the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when selecting<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0the Upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow.=C2=A0 The fast failover is<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0enabled by using RFC 8562 BFD for Multipoint Networks and t=
he new BGP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Attribute - BFD Discriminator.=C2=A0 Also, the d=
ocument introduces a new<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP Community, Standby PE, extendi=
ng BGP MVPN routing so that a<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0C-multicast route can be adve=
rtised toward a Standby Upstream PE.<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined<br>
in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn&#39;t see anything similar in sections=
<br>
4 and 5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since<br>
this document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures<br>
are optional.<br>
<br>
Actually it would be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in<br>
with &quot;legacy&quot; deployments, and how they are all optional procedur=
es. I<br>
think that needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small<br>
section of its own (maybe between 6 and 7).<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt=
; Thank you for the suggestion. I&#39;ve updated the Introduction in this w=
ay:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4 describes protocol=
 extensions that can speed up failover by<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0not requiring any=
 multicast VPN routing message exchange at recovery<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0time.<b=
r><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Moreover, section 5 describes a &quot;hot leaf standby&q=
uot; mechanism, that<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0uses a combination of these two mechan=
isms.=C2=A0 This approach has<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0similarities with the solutio=
n described in [RFC7431] to improve<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0failover times when PIM=
 routing is used in a network given some<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0topology and metri=
c constraints.<br></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4 des=
cribes optional protocol extensions that can speed up<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0failo=
ver by not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0at recovery time.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Moreover, Section 5 describes a=
 &quot;hot leaf standby&quot; mechanism that can<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0be used to=
 improve failover time in MVPN.=C2=A0 The approach combines<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0mechanisms defined in Section 3 and Section 4 has similarities with<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve failover times =
when<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0PIM routing is used in a network given some topology a=
nd metric<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0constraints.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I think=
 that Section 5 is intended to explain how introduced BGP extensions and th=
eir use described in Section 3 and Section 4 enable operators to provide pr=
otection for multicast services. Would you suggest adding a new text to the=
 section to highlight particular aspects=C2=A0of introducing protection in =
MVPN?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel<br=
>
is up.=C2=A0 You don&#39;t say, however, if being unable to determine that =
the<br>
P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining that the<br>
P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about the &quot;tunnel=
&#39;s<br>
state is not known to be down&quot;.)<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; This=
 method, as noted in the document, is similar to BGP next-hop tracking, may=
 be computationally intensive, and cannot be run frequently. So, in periods=
 between checking whether the root address in the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute i=
s reachable the state is &quot;not known to be down&quot;.</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
By the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses<br>
(up and down) because that could make a big difference?<br></blockquote><di=
v>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the document then needs to discuss what impact d=
etection time has on MVPN. For example, if the detection time is in single-=
digit seconds, a two-state model can be used. But would it be a useful mode=
l if the detection time is in tens of seconds? Should a &quot;not known to =
be down&quot; state be introduced?</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex">
<br>
Note that 3.1.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,<br>
but not ways to determine whether the tunnel is down.<br></blockquote><div>=
GIM&gt;&gt; In this section the state of a P-tunnel is equated with the sta=
te of the last link of that tunnel. The document notes that if the link is =
Up, then the P-tunnel is considered down. It is implied, that if it is dete=
rmined that the link is Down, then the state of the P-tunnel is considered =
Down. Would you recommend adding an explanation to the document?=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
To reiterate, &quot;I don&#39;t know if it is up&quot; is not the same as &=
quot;I know it<br>
is down.&quot;<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Indeed. It is analogous to =
&quot;it was Up the last time I&#39;ve checked on it&quot;. It meant to be =
used when the interval between checking is significant.</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.2<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such as M=
PLS FRR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires careful considera=
tion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link an=
d the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0tunnel.=C2=A0 In many cases, it is not practical to use both p=
rotection<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0methods at the same time.<br>
<br>
OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)<br>
<br>
I think you have to give implementation guidance.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&=
gt;&gt; I agree, an operational recommendation could be helpful. Usually, i=
n case of multi-layered protection, detection intervals on the higher layer=
 are 10 times of guaranteed restoration time of the lower layer. Would you =
recommend adding this to the text as an example of a deployment?=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
All of 3.1.x are timid about the use of the mechanisms they describe.<br>
<br>
I think that the end of 3.1 should say that an implementation may choose<br=
>
to use any of these mechanisms to determine the status of the P-tunnel.<br>=
</blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Will the following text reflect that:</div><d=
iv>NEW TEXT:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0An implementation may support any combinatio=
n of the methods<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in this section and provide a ne=
twork operator with control<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0to choose which one to use=
 in the particular deployment.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
This is quite stark, however, in 3.1.3 where you have...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When signaling state for a P2MP TE LSP is removed (e.g., if th=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ingress of the P2MP TE LSP sends a PathTear message) or the P2=
MP TE<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0LSP changes state from Up to Down as determined by procedures =
in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC4875], the status of the corresponding P-tunnel SHOULD be =
re-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0evaluated.=C2=A0 If the P-tunnel transitions from Up to Down s=
tate, the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upstream PE that is the ingress of the P-tunnel SHOULD NOT be<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered a valid UMH.<br>
<br>
The use of SHOULD and SHOULD NOT is puzzling. Is this &quot;if this mechani=
sm<br>
is being used, the status SHOULD...&quot; or is it &quot;if a P2MP MPLS-TE =
tunnel<br>
is being used, this mechanism SHOULD be used&quot;? In the former case, the=
<br>
SHOULD is presumably a MUST. In the latter case, why is this worthy of<br>
BCP 14 language when:<br>
- this whole document is optional<br>
- the mechanisms in 3.1.x are all optional<br>
<br>
But 3.1.4, 3.1.5, 3.1.6, 3.1.7 also use BCP 14 language. I&#39;m pretty sur=
e<br>
you mean &quot;if this mechanism is being used...&quot;<br>
<br>
In case you determine to keep any use of &quot;SHOULD&quot; you need to des=
cribe<br>
under what circumstances an implementation might diverge from this<br>
strong advice.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing this=
 ambiguity that, upon careful reading, could be confusing. You&#39;re right=
, it is meant to follow the &quot;if this mechanism is used&quot; clause. B=
ut once we define the mechanism itself, the normative language to use here =
is MUST/MUST NOT. Below is the updated text for your consideration:</div></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">NEW TEXT:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When using this method and if the signaling state for a P2MP T=
E LSP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0is removed (e.g., if the ingress of the P2MP TE LSP s=
ends a PathTear<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0message) or the P2MP TE LSP changes state f=
rom Up to Down as<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0determined by procedures in [RFC4875], th=
e status of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0corresponding P-tunnel MUST be re-evaluated=
.=C2=A0 If the P-tunnel<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0transitions from Up to Down state, =
the Upstream PE that is the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0ingress of the P-tunnel MUST NO=
T be considered a valid UMH.<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.6<br>
<br>
What should I do if I don&#39;t recognise or support the setting of the BFD=
<br>
Mode field?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the same handling=
 applies as for the malformed attribute:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If malformed, th=
e UPDATE<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0message SHALL be handled using the approach of Att=
ribute Discard per<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7606].=C2=A0</div><div>I propos=
e to extend the applicability of the rule with the following update to the =
sentence:</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The BFD Discriminator =
attribute MUST be considered malformed if its<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0length is not=
 a non-zero multiple of four.=C2=A0 If the setting of the BFD<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Mode field is not recognized or not supported, or the attribute<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0considered malformed, the UPDATE message SHALL be handled using t=
he<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0approach of Attribute Discard per [RFC7606].<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The normal and the standby C-multicast routes must have their =
Local<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Preference attribute adjusted<br>
<br>
Should this be &quot;MUST&quot;?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I think t=
hat is not an actionable &#39;must&#39;. It could be expressed as</div></di=
v><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div>The Local Preference attribute of the normal and the=
 standby C-multicast route needs to be adjusted.</div></div></blockquote>Wo=
uld you recommend using the re-worded passage?<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
7.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IANA is requested to allocate the BGP &quot;Standby PE&quot; c=
ommunity value<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(TBA1) from the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) Well-known Commu=
nities<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0registry.<br>
<br>
There are three ranges. You need to tell IANA which range to use.<br>
Presumably not Private Use (because they are not assigned). But do you<br>
want an assignment from the FCFS range or the Standards Action range?<br></=
blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing to the missing detail. F=
CFS range is fine. The updated text:</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0IANA is requested to allocate the BGP &quot;Standby PE&quot; communit=
y value<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(TBA1) from the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) Well-=
known Communities<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0registry using the First Come First Serve=
d registration policy.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<br>
=3D=3DNits:=3D=3D<br>
<br>
Abstract<br>
<br>
Notwithstanding the terminology difference between &quot;upstream&quot; and=
<br>
&quot;Upstream&quot; defined in Section 2, the distinction made in the text=
<br>
here is unclear. I think that lowercase &quot;upstream&quot; would not be<b=
r>
confusing in this text.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Agree. s/Upstream/=
upstream/=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Requirements Language<br>
<br>
Please move this to a new section 2.1 to be consistent with the RFC<br>
Editor style guide.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Done.=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the context of multicast in BGP/MPLS VPNs<br>
<br>
That could use a reference.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Added referenc=
e to RFC 6513.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 1<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think the description of what is in which section of the<br>
document is quite accurate. Maybe the document has moved on? In any<br>
case, a more specific mention of which protocols are extended/modified<br>
would be good.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve updated the sectio=
n to be more specific:</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 3=
 describes local procedures allowing an egress PE (a PE<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0con=
nected to a receiver site) to take into account the status of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0P-tunnels to determine the Upstream Multicast Hop (UMH) for a given<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(C-S, C-G).=C2=A0 One of the optional methods uses [RFC8562] a=
nd the new<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP Attribute - BFD Discriminator.=C2=A0 None of=
 these methods provide a<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;fast failover&quot; solution=
 when used alone, but can be used together<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0with the mechani=
sm described in Section 4 for a &quot;fast failover&quot;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0s=
olution.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4 describes an optional BGP extension,=
 a new Standby PE<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Community. that can speed up failover by =
not requiring any multicast<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0VPN routing message exchange at=
 recovery time.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I am pretty sure that the reader has no hope of understanding this work<br>
without having first read and absorbed RFC 6513 and RFC 6514. It would<br>
be worth adding a short statement like &quot;It is assumed that the reader =
is<br>
familiar with the workings of multicast MPLS/BGP IP VPNs as described in<br=
>
[RFC6513] and [RFC6514].&quot;<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you f=
or the suggestion. Indeed, I kept both RFC open while editing the draft.=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 2<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0x-PMSI: I-PMSI or S-PMSI<br>
<br>
This is too brief!=C2=A0 I think you need.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0PMSI: P-Multicast Service Interface<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I-PMSI: Inclusive PMSI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0S-PMSI: Selective PMSI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0x-PMSI: Either an I-PMSI or an S-PMSI<br>
<br>
It would be also good to list the other imported terms:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0P-tunnel: Provider-Tunnels<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0UMH: Upstream Multicast Hop<br>
<br>
I think you might collect some of the abreviations into a table in this<br>
section. MVPN, RD, RP, NLRI, VRF, EC, AC, MED, ...<br></blockquote><div>GIM=
&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested expansions. I&#39;ve moved them all to=
 a new Acronyms section (except for EC and AC) (not in the alphabetical ord=
er):</div><div>2.3.=C2=A0 Acronyms<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0PMSI: P-Multicast Se=
rvice Interface<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0I-PMSI: Inclusive PMSI<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0S-PMSI: Selective PMSI<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0x-PMSI: Either an I-PMSI o=
r an S-PMSI<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0P-tunnel: Provider-Tunnels<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0UMH: Upstream Multicast Hop<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0VPN: Virtual Private =
Network<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MVPN: Multicast VPN<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0RD: Rou=
te Distinguisher<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0RP: Rendezvous Point<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0NLRI: Network Layer Reachability Information<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0VRF: VP=
N Routing and Forwarding Table<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MED: Multi-Exit Discrimi=
nator<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3<br>
<br>
s/Section 5.1 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1 of [RFC6513]/<br></blockquote><div>GIM&=
gt;&gt; Done.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3 has<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0selection, which will result in the downstream PE to failover =
to the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upstream PE, which is next in the list of candidates.<br>
<br>
The language is a little unclear. Maybe...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0selection.=C2=A0 This will result in the downstream PE failing=
 over to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use the next Upstream PE in the list of candidates.<br></block=
quote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested text it is much better t=
han what in the document. Done.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3 has<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because of that, procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC=
6513]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.<br>
<br>
Aren&#39;t those procedures already mandatory? That section of 6513 already=
<br>
uses &quot;MUST&quot; (although it oes go on to say that it might not be po=
ssible<br>
to apply the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -<br>
peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder whether<br>
you are saying &quot;this case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.=
1<br>
of [RFC6513]&quot; or are you actually defining new normative behaviour?<br=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the use of lower case &#39;must=
&#39; is ambiguous and somewhat confusing. You are right, the intention is =
to refer to Section 9.1.1 as the mandatory behavior. But neither 9.1.2, nor=
 9.1.3 use the normative language. What would you recommend?</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3<br>
<br>
s/tunnel&#39; state/tunnel&#39;s state/<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Fi=
xed=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Section 3.1 has<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0optional procedures proposed in this section also allow that a=
ll<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0downstream PEs don&#39;t apply the same rules to define what t=
he status<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)<br>
<br>
A little confusing. Maybe...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0optional procedures described in this section also handle the =
case<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the downstream PEs do not all apply the same rules to define w=
hat the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0status of a P-tunnel is (please see Section 6)<br></blockquote=
><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Great suggestion and gladly applied to the text.=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.2<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the =
last-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.<br>
<br>
I like that you are using &quot;Up&quot; rather than &quot;up&quot;. Maybe =
change throughout<br>
the document to use &quot;Up&quot; and &quot;Down&quot;?<br></blockquote><d=
iv>GIM&gt;&gt; I went through the document and uppercased when referring to=
 the status or state. I hope I&#39;ve got them all.</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.6<br>
<br>
s/TLV &#39;s Type/TLV&#39;s Type/<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Got it!=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.6.1<br>
<br>
You use &quot;p2mp BFD Session&quot; rather than using &quot;P2MP&quot;. Th=
is looks<br>
intentional but also looks really odd. Section 7.2 uses &quot;P2MP<br>
BFD Session&quot;.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Changed to P2MP through=
 the document (also added to the Acronyms)=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
3.1.7<br>
<br>
s/section 6.8.17 [RFC5880]/Section 6.8.17 of [RFC5880]/<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.<br>
<br>
s/section 5.1.3 [RFC6513]/Section 5.1.3 of [RFC6513]/<br></blockquote><div>=
GIM&gt;&gt; Done.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">
<br>
OLD<br>
=C2=A0VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6) routes<br>
NEW<br>
=C2=A0VPN routes (VPN-IPv4 or VPN-IPv6)<br>
END<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you.=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.<br>
<br>
s/would refer to/refers to/<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thanks!=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As long as C-S is reachable via the Primary<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the Primary Upstream PE.<br=
>
<br>
This sentence doesn&#39;t seem to be complete. What is the consequence of<b=
r>
this condition?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; It suppose to be</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0As long as</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0C-S is reachable via the Primary=
 Upstream PE, the Upstream PE is the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Primary Upstream PE.</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Is it better?<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 SHOULD carry the &quot;Standby PE&quot; BGP Community =
(this is a new BGP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Community.<br>
<br>
I think this needs guidance on when to not include the Community<br></block=
quote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The question made me think that for the implementati=
on that supports this specification there&#39;s no reason not to include th=
e Standby PE Community. s/SHOULD/MUST/</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.1<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST be set to zero.<br>
<br>
Maybe...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The LOCAL_PREF attribute MUST also be set to zero.<br></blockq=
uote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Agree.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.2<br>
<br>
You might want to tidy up whether you use &quot;a)&quot; and &quot;b)&quot;=
 or &quot;(a)&quot; and<br>
&quot;(b)&quot;<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I opted for &#39;a)&#39; a=
nd &#39;b)&#39;=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.4.1<br>
<br>
s/Additionally, to?Additional to/<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Got it=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.4.2<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When an Upstream ASBR receives a C-multicast route, and at lea=
st one<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the RTs of the route matches one of the ASBR Import RT, the=
 ASBR,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that supports this specification, MUST locate an Inter-AS I-PM=
SI A-D<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Route whose RD and Source AS respectively match the RD and Sou=
rce AS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0carried in the C-multicast route.=C2=A0 If the match is found,=
 and the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0C-multicast route carries the Standby PE BGP Community, then t=
he ASBR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST perform as follows:<br>
<br>
Is that &quot;MUST try to locate&quot;? Because it seems to be countenanced=
 that<br>
the attempt could fail.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for poin=
ting this out. Yes, the lookup might fail. s/MUST/MUST try to/=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
4.4.2<br>
<br>
s/MED attribute set of/MED attribute set to/<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&g=
t; Thank you!=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
5.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The mechanisms defined in sections Section 4 and Section 3 can=
 be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0used together as follows.<br>
<br>
That&#39;s an XML feature. If you do<br>
&quot;...defined in &lt;xref target=3D&quot;section4&quot;/&gt;&lt;xref tar=
get=3D&quot;section3&quot;/&gt;...&quot;<br>
then XML2RFC will sort things out for you.=C2=A0 Seems to be OK a couple of=
<br>
paragraphs later.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Cleaned up=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
5.<br>
<br>
s/semantic for is that/semantic is that/<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; D=
one=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
6.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Multicast VPN specifications [RFC6513] impose that a PE only f=
orwards<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to CEs the packets coming from the expected Upstream PE<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(Section 9.1).<br>
<br>
There being no section 9.1 in this document, I think you mean...<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;(see Section 9.1 of [RFC6513]).&quot;<br></blockquote><d=
iv>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, added the reference to RFC 6513=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Please also be clear in the next paragraph whether the references are to<br=
>
sections of this document (no need to qualify) or sections of RFC 6513<br>
(important to qualify).<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the =
question. Both references are to sections in this document.=C2=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
---<br>
<br>
6.<br>
<br>
OLD<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0We highlight the reader&#39;s attention to the fact that the r=
espect of<br>
NEW<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0We draw the reader&#39;s attention to the fact that the respec=
t of<br>
END<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you. &quot;Highlighting&quot; at=
tention - awkward.=C2=A0</div></div></div>

--000000000000ab710405b2b24108--

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Subject: Re: [bess] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11
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Hello Greg,

=20

Thanks for this. I=E2=80=99m cutting down to places where we still need =
to interact. Look for [af] and blue text.

=20

Nothing alarming.

=20

Best,

Adrian

=20

Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined
in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn't see anything similar in sections
4 and 5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since
this document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures
are optional.

Actually it would be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in
with "legacy" deployments, and how they are all optional procedures. I
think that needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small
section of its own (maybe between 6 and 7).

GIM>> Thank you for the suggestion. I've updated the Introduction in =
this way:

OLD TEXT:

   Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover by
   not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at recovery
   time.

   Moreover, section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism, that
   uses a combination of these two mechanisms.  This approach has
   similarities with the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve
   failover times when PIM routing is used in a network given some
   topology and metric constraints.

NEW TEXT:

   Section 4 describes optional protocol extensions that can speed up
   failover by not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange
   at recovery time.

   Moreover, Section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism that can
   be used to improve failover time in MVPN.  The approach combines
   mechanisms defined in Section 3 and Section 4 has similarities with
   the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve failover times when
   PIM routing is used in a network given some topology and metric
   constraints.

=20

I think that Section 5 is intended to explain how introduced BGP =
extensions and their use described in Section 3 and Section 4 enable =
operators to provide protection for multicast services. Would you =
suggest adding a new text to the section to highlight particular aspects =
of introducing protection in MVPN?

=20

[af] OK I obviously wasn=E2=80=99t clear. What I=E2=80=99m looking for =
is something like=E2=80=A6

=20

The procedures described in this document are optional to enable an =
operator to provide protection for multicast services. An operator would =
enable these mechanisms using <foo> and it is assumed that these =
mechanisms would be supported by all <what?> in the network for the =
procedures to work. In the case that a BGP implementation does not =
recognise or is configured to not support the extensions defined in this =
document, it will respond <somehow> as described in <rfc????>. This =
would result in <something>.

=20

It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel
is up.  You don't say, however, if being unable to determine that the
P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining that the
P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about the "tunnel's
state is not known to be down".)

GIM>> This method, as noted in the document, is similar to BGP next-hop =
tracking, may be computationally intensive, and cannot be run =
frequently. So, in periods between checking whether the root address in =
the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute is reachable the state is "not known to be =
down".

=20

[af] Well, OK. Can you add to say that, =E2=80=9CIf it is not possible =
to determine whether the state of a tunnel is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99, the =
state shall be considered as =E2=80=98not known to be down=E2=80=99, and =
it may be treated as if it is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99 so that attempts to =
use the tunnel are acceptable.=E2=80=9D This is probably =
=E2=80=9Cobvious to one skilled in the art,=E2=80=9D but would help this =
reader.

=20

By the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses
(up and down) because that could make a big difference?

GIM>> I think that the document then needs to discuss what impact =
detection time has on MVPN. For example, if the detection time is in =
single-digit seconds, a two-state model can be used. But would it be a =
useful model if the detection time is in tens of seconds? Should a "not =
known to be down" state be introduced?

=20

[af] Yes, that *seems* to be the implication. But is there any different =
action between =E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cnot known to be =
down=E2=80=9D? If you have three states then there is (possibly) an =
implication that tunnels are prioritised by state. I think, however, =
that it is OK to use =E2=80=9Cnot known to be down=E2=80=9D as if it was =
=E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D.

=20


Note that 3.1.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,
but not ways to determine whether the tunnel is down.

GIM>> In this section the state of a P-tunnel is equated with the state =
of the last link of that tunnel. The document notes that if the link is =
Up, then the P-tunnel is considered down. It is implied, that if it is =
determined that the link is Down, then the state of the P-tunnel is =
considered Down. Would you recommend adding an explanation to the =
document?=20

=20

To reiterate, "I don't know if it is up" is not the same as "I know it
is down."

GIM>> Indeed. It is analogous to "it was Up the last time I've checked =
on it". It meant to be used when the interval between checking is =
significant.

=20

[af] Assuming there is typo in what you just wrote =E2=80=93 link not up =
=3D=3D> tunnel down.

Also assuming that we don=E2=80=99t go down the =E2=80=9Cthree =
state=E2=80=9D path, then =E2=80=9Cnot checked for a while=E2=80=9D is =
still =E2=80=9CUp=E2=80=9D.

I think it was the phrasing in 3.1.2. It sounded like =E2=80=9CHere is a =
way to know that the tunnel is up=E2=80=9D which is a good thing, but =
does not say that it is exclusive. So, avoiding the =
=E2=80=9Cimplication=E2=80=9D would be a good thing. Something like=20

OLD

   A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the last-

   hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.

NEW

   A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the last-

   hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.  Conversely, if the last-hop link of

   the P-tunnel is Down then this can be taken as an indication that

  the P-tunnel is Down.

END


3.1.2

   Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such as MPLS FRR
   [RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires careful consideration
   and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link and the
   tunnel.  In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection
   methods at the same time.

OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)

I think you have to give implementation guidance.

GIM>> I agree, an operational recommendation could be helpful. Usually, =
in case of multi-layered protection, detection intervals on the higher =
layer are 10 times of guaranteed restoration time of the lower layer. =
Would you recommend adding this to the text as an example of a =
deployment?=20

=20

[af] An example would be fine (and a forward reference from here). But =
it would be fine, maybe better, to offer half a sentence of guidance. =
So=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9Dnot practical to use both protection methods at the =
same time because <adverse interactions?>=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D

=20

All of 3.1.x are timid about the use of the mechanisms they describe.

I think that the end of 3.1 should say that an implementation may choose
to use any of these mechanisms to determine the status of the P-tunnel.

GIM>> Will the following text reflect that:

NEW TEXT:

   An implementation may support any combination of the methods
   described in this section and provide a network operator with control

   to choose which one to use in the particular deployment.

=20

[af] Good.

=20

3.1.6

What should I do if I don't recognise or support the setting of the BFD
Mode field?

GIM>> I think that the same handling applies as for the malformed =
attribute:

   If malformed, the UPDATE
   message SHALL be handled using the approach of Attribute Discard per

   [RFC7606].=20

I propose to extend the applicability of the rule with the following =
update to the sentence:

NEW TEXT:

   The BFD Discriminator attribute MUST be considered malformed if its
   length is not a non-zero multiple of four.  If the setting of the BFD
   Mode field is not recognized or not supported, or the attribute
   considered malformed, the UPDATE message SHALL be handled using the
   approach of Attribute Discard per [RFC7606].

=20

[af] This is a bit subtle and refers also to my first point in this =
email. If the setting of the BFD Mode is not recognised or not =
supported, then it is likely because this specification is not =
supported. Therefore, this specification cannot mandate how the =
implementation will behave. I think you have to separate:

*	The malformed SHALL be handled using Attribute Discard according to =
[RFC7606]
*	An unknown or unsupported attribute will be handled by implementations =
according to the procedures for unknown attributes described in <foo>

=20

4.1

   The normal and the standby C-multicast routes must have their Local
   Preference attribute adjusted

Should this be "MUST"?

GIM>> I think that is not an actionable 'must'. It could be expressed as

The Local Preference attribute of the normal and the standby C-multicast =
route needs to be adjusted.

Would you recommend using the re-worded passage?

=20

[af] The alternative text is good.

=20

=3D=3DNits:=3D=3D



Section 3 has

   Because of that, procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513]
   MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.

Aren't those procedures already mandatory? That section of 6513 already
uses "MUST" (although it oes go on to say that it might not be possible
to apply the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -
peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder whether
you are saying "this case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.1
of [RFC6513]" or are you actually defining new normative behaviour?

GIM>> I think that the use of lower case 'must' is ambiguous and =
somewhat confusing. You are right, the intention is to refer to Section =
9.1.1 as the mandatory behavior. But neither 9.1.2, nor 9.1.3 use the =
normative language. What would you recommend?

=20

[af] Maybe=E2=80=A6

=E2=80=9CBecause of that, the procedures of Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] =
are applicable. That document is a foundation for this document and its =
processes all apply here. Section 9.1.1 mandates the use of specific =
procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes.=E2=80=9D

=20

4.1

   As long as C-S is reachable via the Primary
   Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the Primary Upstream PE.

This sentence doesn't seem to be complete. What is the consequence of
this condition?

GIM>> It suppose to be

   As long as

   C-S is reachable via the Primary Upstream PE, the Upstream PE is the
   Primary Upstream PE.

Is it better?

=20

[af] That makes sense

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hello Greg,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Thanks for =
this. I=E2=80=99m cutting down to places where we still need to =
interact. Look for [af] and <span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>blue =
text.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Nothing =
alarming.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the =
procedure defined<br>in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn't see anything =
similar in sections<br>4 and 5 stating that those procedures are =
optional. Presumably, since<br>this document is not updating any other =
RFCs, all of these procedures<br>are optional.<br><br>Actually it would =
be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in<br>with =
&quot;legacy&quot; deployments, and how they are all optional =
procedures. I<br>think that needs a short statement in the Introduction =
and a small<br>section of its own (maybe between 6 and =
7).<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; =
Thank you for the suggestion. I've updated the Introduction in this =
way:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>OLD =
TEXT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;Section =
4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover by<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at =
recovery<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;time.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Moreover, section 5 =
describes a &quot;hot leaf standby&quot; mechanism, that<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;uses a combination of these two mechanisms.&nbsp; This approach =
has<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;similarities with the solution described in =
[RFC7431] to improve<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;failover times when PIM routing is =
used in a network given some<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;topology and metric =
constraints.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>NEW =
TEXT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;Section =
4 describes optional protocol extensions that can speed up<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;failover by not requiring any multicast VPN routing message =
exchange<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;at recovery time.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Moreover, =
Section 5 describes a &quot;hot leaf standby&quot; mechanism that =
can<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;be used to improve failover time in MVPN.&nbsp; The =
approach combines<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;mechanisms defined in Section 3 and =
Section 4 has similarities with<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;the solution described =
in [RFC7431] to improve failover times when<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;PIM routing =
is used in a network given some topology and metric<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;constraints.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
think that Section 5 is intended to explain how introduced BGP =
extensions and their use described in Section 3 and Section 4 enable =
operators to provide protection for multicast services. Would you =
suggest adding a new text to the section to highlight particular =
aspects&nbsp;of introducing protection in MVPN?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] OK I obviously wasn=E2=80=99t clear. What =
I=E2=80=99m looking for is something =
like=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>The procedures described =
in this document are optional to enable an operator to provide =
protection for multicast services. An operator would enable these =
mechanisms using &lt;foo&gt; and it is assumed that these mechanisms =
would be supported by all &lt;what?&gt; in the network for the =
procedures to work. In the case that a BGP implementation does not =
recognise or is configured to not support the extensions defined in this =
document, it will respond &lt;somehow&gt; as described in =
&lt;rfc????&gt;. This would result in =
&lt;something&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal>It is =
curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel<br>is =
up.&nbsp; You don't say, however, if being unable to determine that =
the<br>P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining =
that the<br>P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about =
the &quot;tunnel's<br>state is not known to be =
down&quot;.)<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; This method, as noted in the document, is =
similar to BGP next-hop tracking, may be computationally intensive, and =
cannot be run frequently. So, in periods between checking whether the =
root address in the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute is reachable the state is =
&quot;not known to be down&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] Well, OK. Can you add to say that, =
=E2=80=9CIf it is not possible to determine whether the state of a =
tunnel is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99, the state shall be considered as =
=E2=80=98not known to be down=E2=80=99, and it may be treated as if it =
is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99 so that attempts to use the tunnel are =
acceptable.=E2=80=9D This is probably =E2=80=9Cobvious to one skilled in =
the art,=E2=80=9D but would help this reader.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal>By the =
way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses<br>(up =
and down) because that could make a big =
difference?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the document then needs to =
discuss what impact detection time has on MVPN. For example, if the =
detection time is in single-digit seconds, a two-state model can be =
used. But would it be a useful model if the detection time is in tens of =
seconds? Should a &quot;not known to be down&quot; state be =
introduced?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] Yes, that =
*<b>seems</b>* to be the implication. But is there any different action =
between =E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cnot known to be down=E2=80=9D? =
If you have three states then there is (possibly) an implication that =
tunnels are prioritised by state. I think, however, that it is OK to use =
=E2=80=9Cnot known to be down=E2=80=9D as if it was =
=E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Note =
that 3.1.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,<br>but =
not ways to determine whether the tunnel is =
down.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; =
In this section the state of a P-tunnel is equated with the state of the =
last link of that tunnel. The document notes that if the link is Up, =
then the P-tunnel is considered down. It is implied, that if it is =
determined that the link is Down, then the state of the P-tunnel is =
considered Down. Would you recommend adding an explanation to the =
document?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal>To =
reiterate, &quot;I don't know if it is up&quot; is not the same as =
&quot;I know it<br>is down.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; Indeed. It is analogous to &quot;it was Up =
the last time I've checked on it&quot;. It meant to be used when the =
interval between checking is significant.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] Assuming there is typo in what you just =
wrote =E2=80=93 link not up </span><span =
style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:#00B0F0'>=C3=A8</span><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'> tunnel down.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>Also assuming that we =
don=E2=80=99t go down the =E2=80=9Cthree state=E2=80=9D path, then =
=E2=80=9Cnot checked for a while=E2=80=9D is still =
=E2=80=9CUp=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>I think it was the phrasing in 3.1.2. It sounded =
like =E2=80=9CHere is a way to know that the tunnel is up=E2=80=9D which =
is a good thing, but does not say that it is exclusive. So, avoiding the =
=E2=80=9Cimplication=E2=80=9D would be a good thing. Something like =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>OLD<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 A condition =
to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the =
last-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 hop link of the P-tunnel is =
Up.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>NEW<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 A condition =
to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the =
last-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 hop link of the P-tunnel is =
Up.=C2=A0 Conversely, if the last-hop link of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the =
P-tunnel is Down then this can be taken as an indication =
that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'> =C2=A0=C2=A0the P-tunnel is =
Down.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>END<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>3.1.2<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Using this method when a =
fast restoration mechanism (such as MPLS FRR<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;[RFC4090]) =
is in place for the link requires careful consideration<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link and =
the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;tunnel.&nbsp; In many cases, it is not practical to =
use both protection<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;methods at the same time.<br><br>OK, =
I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)<br><br>I think you have to =
give implementation guidance.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; I agree, an operational recommendation =
could be helpful. Usually, in case of multi-layered protection, =
detection intervals on the higher layer are 10 times of guaranteed =
restoration time of the lower layer. Would you recommend adding this to =
the text as an example of a deployment?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] An example would be fine (and a forward =
reference from here). But it would be fine, maybe better, to offer half =
a sentence of guidance. So=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9Dnot practical to use both =
protection methods at the same time because &lt;adverse =
interactions?&gt;=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal>All of =
3.1.x are timid about the use of the mechanisms they describe.<br><br>I =
think that the end of 3.1 should say that an implementation may =
choose<br>to use any of these mechanisms to determine the status of the =
P-tunnel.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; Will the following text reflect =
that:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>NEW =
TEXT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;An =
implementation may support any combination of the methods<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;described in this section and provide a network operator with =
control<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;to choose =
which one to use in the particular deployment.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] Good.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>3.1.6<br><br>What should I do if I don't recognise or =
support the setting of the BFD<br>Mode =
field?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; =
I think that the same handling applies as for the malformed =
attribute:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;If =
malformed, the UPDATE<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;message SHALL be handled using the =
approach of Attribute Discard per<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;[RFC7606].&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
propose to extend the applicability of the rule with the following =
update to the sentence:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>NEW TEXT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;The BFD Discriminator attribute MUST be =
considered malformed if its<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;length is not a non-zero =
multiple of four.&nbsp; If the setting of the BFD<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Mode =
field is not recognized or not supported, or the attribute<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;considered malformed, the UPDATE message SHALL be handled using =
the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;approach of Attribute Discard per =
[RFC7606].<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] This is a bit =
subtle and refers also to my first point in this email. If the setting =
of the BFD Mode is not recognised or not supported, then it is likely =
because this specification is not supported. Therefore, this =
specification cannot mandate how the implementation will behave. I think =
you have to separate:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0cm' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>The =
malformed SHALL be handled using Attribute Discard according to =
[RFC7606]<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>An =
unknown or unsupported attribute will be handled by implementations =
according to the procedures for unknown attributes described in =
&lt;foo&gt;<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>4.1<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;The normal and the standby =
C-multicast routes must have their Local<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Preference =
attribute adjusted<br><br>Should this be =
&quot;MUST&quot;?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that is not an actionable 'must'. =
It could be expressed as<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The Local Preference attribute of the normal and the =
standby C-multicast route needs to be =
adjusted.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Would you recommend using the re-worded =
passage?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] The alternative =
text is good.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=3D=3DNits:=3D=3D<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><b=
lockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Section 3 has<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Because of that, =
procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513]<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;MUST =
be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.<br><br>Aren't those procedures =
already mandatory? That section of 6513 already<br>uses &quot;MUST&quot; =
(although it oes go on to say that it might not be possible<br>to apply =
the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 =
-<br>peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder =
whether<br>you are saying &quot;this case is covered by the procedures =
of Section 9.1.1<br>of [RFC6513]&quot; or are you actually defining new =
normative behaviour?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the use of lower case 'must' =
is ambiguous and somewhat confusing. You are right, the intention is to =
refer to Section 9.1.1 as the mandatory behavior. But neither 9.1.2, nor =
9.1.3 use the normative language. What would you =
recommend?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] =
Maybe=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>=E2=80=9CBecause of that, the procedures of =
Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] are applicable. That document is a foundation =
for this document and its processes all apply here. Section 9.1.1 =
mandates the use of specific procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D =
Routes.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>4.1<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;As long as C-S is reachable =
via the Primary<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the =
Primary Upstream PE.<br><br>This sentence doesn't seem to be complete. =
What is the consequence of<br>this =
condition?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>GIM&gt;&gt; It suppose to =
be<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;As long =
as<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;C-S is =
reachable via the Primary Upstream PE, the Upstream PE is the<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Primary Upstream PE.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Is it better?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] That makes sense<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div></b=
ody></html>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 14:34:12 -0700
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Hi Adrian,
many thanks for your detailed clarification and helpful suggestions. Please
find my follow-up notes under GIM2>> tag in green. Also, attached are the
new diff and working version of the draft.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 6:51 AM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

> Hello Greg,
>
>
>
> Thanks for this. I=E2=80=99m cutting down to places where we still need t=
o
> interact. Look for [af] and blue text.
>
>
>
> Nothing alarming.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined
> in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn't see anything similar in sections
> 4 and 5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since
> this document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures
> are optional.
>
> Actually it would be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in
> with "legacy" deployments, and how they are all optional procedures. I
> think that needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small
> section of its own (maybe between 6 and 7).
>
> GIM>> Thank you for the suggestion. I've updated the Introduction in this
> way:
>
> OLD TEXT:
>
>    Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover by
>    not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at recovery
>    time.
>
>    Moreover, section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism, that
>    uses a combination of these two mechanisms.  This approach has
>    similarities with the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve
>    failover times when PIM routing is used in a network given some
>    topology and metric constraints.
>
> NEW TEXT:
>
>    Section 4 describes optional protocol extensions that can speed up
>    failover by not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange
>    at recovery time.
>
>    Moreover, Section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism that can
>    be used to improve failover time in MVPN.  The approach combines
>    mechanisms defined in Section 3 and Section 4 has similarities with
>    the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve failover times when
>    PIM routing is used in a network given some topology and metric
>    constraints.
>
>
>
> I think that Section 5 is intended to explain how introduced BGP
> extensions and their use described in Section 3 and Section 4 enable
> operators to provide protection for multicast services. Would you suggest
> adding a new text to the section to highlight particular aspects of
> introducing protection in MVPN?
>
>
>
> [af] OK I obviously wasn=E2=80=99t clear. What I=E2=80=99m looking for is=
 something like=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> The procedures described in this document are optional to enable an
> operator to provide protection for multicast services. An operator would
> enable these mechanisms using <foo> and it is assumed that these mechanis=
ms
> would be supported by all <what?> in the network for the procedures to
> work. In the case that a BGP implementation does not recognise or is
> configured to not support the extensions defined in this document, it wil=
l
> respond <somehow> as described in <rfc????>. This would result in
> <something>.
>
GIM2>> I think I've got the idea now. Would appending the new paragraph to
the Introduction address your comment:
NEW TEXT:
   The procedures described in this document are optional to enable an
   operator to provide protection for multicast services in BGP/MPLS IP
   VPNs.  An operator would enable these mechanisms using a method
   discussed in Section 3 in combination with the redundancy provided by
   a standby PE connected to the source of the multicast flow, and it is
   assumed that all PEs in the network would support these mechanisms
   for the procedures to work.  In the case that a BGP implementation
   does not recognize or is configured to not support the extensions
   defined in this document, it will continue to provide the multicast
   service, as described in [RFC6513].

>
>
> It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel
> is up.  You don't say, however, if being unable to determine that the
> P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining that the
> P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about the "tunnel's
> state is not known to be down".)
>
> GIM>> This method, as noted in the document, is similar to BGP next-hop
> tracking, may be computationally intensive, and cannot be run frequently.
> So, in periods between checking whether the root address in the x-PMSI
> Tunnel attribute is reachable the state is "not known to be down".
>
>
>
> [af] Well, OK. Can you add to say that, =E2=80=9CIf it is not possible to
> determine whether the state of a tunnel is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99, the stat=
e shall be
> considered as =E2=80=98not known to be down=E2=80=99, and it may be treat=
ed as if it is
> =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99 so that attempts to use the tunnel are acceptable.=
=E2=80=9D This is probably
> =E2=80=9Cobvious to one skilled in the art,=E2=80=9D but would help this =
reader.
>
GIM2>> Thank you for the contributed text. I've added in before "not known
to be Down" used in the text (with the yellowish background):
NEW TEXT:
   The procedure described here is an OPTIONAL procedure that is based
   on a downstream PE taking into account the status of P-tunnels rooted
   at each possible Upstream PE, for including or not including each
   given PE in the list of candidate UMHs for a given (C-S, C-G) state.
   If it is not possible to determine whether a P-tunnel's current
   status is Up, the state shall be considered "not known to be Down",
   and it may be treated as if it is Up so that attempts to use the
   tunnel are acceptable.  The result is that, if a P-tunnel is Down
   (see Section 3.1), the PE that is the root of the P-tunnel will not
   be considered for UMH selection.  This will result in the downstream
   PE failing over to use the next Upstream PE in the list of
   candidates.  Some downstream PEs could arrive at a different
   conclusion regarding the tunnel's state because the failure impacts
   only a subset of branches.  Because of that, procedures described in
   Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.
>
>
>
> By the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses
> (up and down) because that could make a big difference?
>
> GIM>> I think that the document then needs to discuss what impact
> detection time has on MVPN. For example, if the detection time is in
> single-digit seconds, a two-state model can be used. But would it be a
> useful model if the detection time is in tens of seconds? Should a "not
> known to be down" state be introduced?
>
>
>
> [af] Yes, that **seems** to be the implication. But is there any
> different action between =E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cnot known to b=
e down=E2=80=9D? If you have three
> states then there is (possibly) an implication that tunnels are prioritis=
ed
> by state. I think, however, that it is OK to use =E2=80=9Cnot known to be=
 down=E2=80=9D as
> if it was =E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D.
>
GIM2>> Thank you.

>
>
>
> Note that 3.1.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,
> but not ways to determine whether the tunnel is down.
>
> GIM>> In this section the state of a P-tunnel is equated with the state o=
f
> the last link of that tunnel. The document notes that if the link is Up,
> then the P-tunnel is considered down. It is implied, that if it is
> determined that the link is Down, then the state of the P-tunnel is
> considered Down. Would you recommend adding an explanation to the documen=
t?
>
>
>
> To reiterate, "I don't know if it is up" is not the same as "I know it
> is down."
>
> GIM>> Indeed. It is analogous to "it was Up the last time I've checked on
> it". It meant to be used when the interval between checking is significan=
t.
>
>
>
> [af] Assuming there is typo in what you just wrote =E2=80=93 link not up =
=C3=A8 tunnel
> down.
>
> Also assuming that we don=E2=80=99t go down the =E2=80=9Cthree state=E2=
=80=9D path, then =E2=80=9Cnot
> checked for a while=E2=80=9D is still =E2=80=9CUp=E2=80=9D.
>
> I think it was the phrasing in 3.1.2. It sounded like =E2=80=9CHere is a =
way to
> know that the tunnel is up=E2=80=9D which is a good thing, but does not s=
ay that it
> is exclusive. So, avoiding the =E2=80=9Cimplication=E2=80=9D would be a g=
ood thing.
> Something like
>
> OLD
>
>    A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the last-
>
>    hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.
>
> NEW
>
>    A condition to consider a tunnel status as Up can be that the last-
>
>    hop link of the P-tunnel is Up.  Conversely, if the last-hop link of
>
>    the P-tunnel is Down then this can be taken as an indication that
>
>   the P-tunnel is Down.
>
> END
>
> GIM2>> Many thanks for the new text. Updated accordingly.

>
> 3.1.2
>
>    Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such as MPLS FRR
>    [RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires careful consideration
>    and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link and the
>    tunnel.  In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection
>    methods at the same time.
>
> OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)
>
> I think you have to give implementation guidance.
>
> GIM>> I agree, an operational recommendation could be helpful. Usually, i=
n
> case of multi-layered protection, detection intervals on the higher layer
> are 10 times of guaranteed restoration time of the lower layer. Would you
> recommend adding this to the text as an example of a deployment?
>
>
>
> [af] An example would be fine (and a forward reference from here). But it
> would be fine, maybe better, to offer half a sentence of guidance. So=E2=
=80=A6=E2=80=9Dnot
> practical to use both protection methods at the same time because <advers=
e
> interactions?>=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D
>
GIM2>> Thank you for the explanation. Extended the last sentence:
NEW TEXT:
   In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection
   methods at the same time because uncorrelated timers might cause
   unnecessary switchovers and destabilize the network.

>
>
> All of 3.1.x are timid about the use of the mechanisms they describe.
>
> I think that the end of 3.1 should say that an implementation may choose
> to use any of these mechanisms to determine the status of the P-tunnel.
>
> GIM>> Will the following text reflect that:
>
> NEW TEXT:
>
>    An implementation may support any combination of the methods
>    described in this section and provide a network operator with control
>
>    to choose which one to use in the particular deployment.
>
>
>
> [af] Good.
>
>
>
> 3.1.6
>
> What should I do if I don't recognise or support the setting of the BFD
> Mode field?
>
> GIM>> I think that the same handling applies as for the malformed
> attribute:
>
>    If malformed, the UPDATE
>    message SHALL be handled using the approach of Attribute Discard per
>
>    [RFC7606].
>
> I propose to extend the applicability of the rule with the following
> update to the sentence:
>
> NEW TEXT:
>
>    The BFD Discriminator attribute MUST be considered malformed if its
>    length is not a non-zero multiple of four.  If the setting of the BFD
>    Mode field is not recognized or not supported, or the attribute
>    considered malformed, the UPDATE message SHALL be handled using the
>    approach of Attribute Discard per [RFC7606].
>
>
>
> [af] This is a bit subtle and refers also to my first point in this email=
.
> If the setting of the BFD Mode is not recognised or not supported, then i=
t
> is likely because this specification is not supported. Therefore, this
> specification cannot mandate how the implementation will behave. I think
> you have to separate:
>
>    - The malformed SHALL be handled using Attribute Discard according to
>    [RFC7606]
>    - An unknown or unsupported attribute will be handled by
>    implementations according to the procedures for unknown attributes
>    described in <foo>
>
>
>
GIM2>> I thought of a different "unsupported" scenario. Consider BFD
Discriminator attribute is supported but an implementation does not
recognize the value in the BFD Mode field. In the case the BFD
Discriminator is unknown or unsupported procedures defined for the optional
transitive path attribute in Section 5 of RFC 4271 must be followed. I've
removed the recent updated and added the reference to RFC 4271 (added as
the Normative reference) following the definition of the new attribute:
NEW TEXT:
   This document defines the format and ways of using a new BGP
   attribute called the "BFD Discriminator".  It is an optional
   transitive BGP attribute.  An implementation that does not recognize
   or is configured not to support this attribute MUST follow procedures
   defined for optional transitive path attributes in Section 5 of
   [RFC4271].

> 4.1
>
>    The normal and the standby C-multicast routes must have their Local
>    Preference attribute adjusted
>
> Should this be "MUST"?
>
> GIM>> I think that is not an actionable 'must'. It could be expressed as
>
> The Local Preference attribute of the normal and the standby C-multicast
> route needs to be adjusted.
>
> Would you recommend using the re-worded passage?
>
>
>
> [af] The alternative text is good.
>
GIM2>> Done.

>
>
> =3D=3DNits:=3D=3D
>
> Section 3 has
>
>    Because of that, procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513]
>    MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.
>
> Aren't those procedures already mandatory? That section of 6513 already
> uses "MUST" (although it oes go on to say that it might not be possible
> to apply the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -
> peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder whether
> you are saying "this case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.1
> of [RFC6513]" or are you actually defining new normative behaviour?
>
> GIM>> I think that the use of lower case 'must' is ambiguous and somewhat
> confusing. You are right, the intention is to refer to Section 9.1.1 as t=
he
> mandatory behavior. But neither 9.1.2, nor 9.1.3 use the normative
> language. What would you recommend?
>
>
>
> [af] Maybe=E2=80=A6
>
> =E2=80=9CBecause of that, the procedures of Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] ar=
e
> applicable. That document is a foundation for this document and its
> processes all apply here. Section 9.1.1 mandates the use of specific
> procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes.=E2=80=9D
>
GIM2>> Thank you for the text. Updated accordingly with noting "when using
I-PMSI P-tunnels"
NEW TEXT:
Because of that, the procedures of
   Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] are applicable when using I-PMSI
   P-tunnels.  That document is a foundation for this document, and its
   processes all apply here.  Section 9.1.1 mandates the use of specific
   procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes.

>
>
> 4.1
>
>    As long as C-S is reachable via the Primary
>    Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the Primary Upstream PE.
>
> This sentence doesn't seem to be complete. What is the consequence of
> this condition?
>
> GIM>> It suppose to be
>
>    As long as
>
>    C-S is reachable via the Primary Upstream PE, the Upstream PE is the
>    Primary Upstream PE.
>
> Is it better?
>
>
>
> [af] That makes sense
>
>
>

--00000000000051ab8c05b2c1eddb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adrian,<div>many thanks for your detai=
led clarification and helpful suggestions. Please find my follow-up notes u=
nder GIM2&gt;&gt; tag in <font color=3D"#6aa84f">green</font>. Also, attach=
ed are the new diff and working version of the draft.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 6:51 AM Adrian Far=
rel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_57971=
94647049017863WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hello Greg,<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Thanks for this. I=E2=80=99m cutting down t=
o places where we still need to interact. Look for [af] and <span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,176,240)">blue text.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an>Nothing alarming.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Best,<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Adrian<u></u><u></u></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div><block=
quote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-=
left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;m=
argin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3 notes that the procedure =
(presumably the procedure defined<br>in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn&#=
39;t see anything similar in sections<br>4 and 5 stating that those procedu=
res are optional. Presumably, since<br>this document is not updating any ot=
her RFCs, all of these procedures<br>are optional.<br><br>Actually it would=
 be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in<br>with &quot;legacy&qu=
ot; deployments, and how they are all optional procedures. I<br>think that =
needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small<br>section of its o=
wn (maybe between 6 and 7).<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggestion. I&#39;ve updated the I=
ntroduction in this way:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>OLD TEXT:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover by<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at re=
covery<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0time.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Moreover, section 5 descri=
bes a &quot;hot leaf standby&quot; mechanism, that<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0uses a c=
ombination of these two mechanisms.=C2=A0 This approach has<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0similarities with the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0failover times when PIM routing is used in a network given some<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0topology and metric constraints.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">NEW TEXT:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4 describes optional protocol extensions tha=
t can speed up<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0failover by not requiring any multicast VPN =
routing message exchange<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0at recovery time.<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Moreover, Section 5 describes a &quot;hot leaf standby&quot; mechanis=
m that can<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0be used to improve failover time in MVPN.=C2=A0 =
The approach combines<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms defined in Section 3 and S=
ection 4 has similarities with<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the solution described in [R=
FC7431] to improve failover times when<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0PIM routing is used =
in a network given some topology and metric<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0constraints.<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think that Section 5 is intended to expla=
in how introduced BGP extensions and their use described in Section 3 and S=
ection 4 enable operators to provide protection for multicast services. Wou=
ld you suggest adding a new text to the section to highlight particular asp=
ects=C2=A0of introducing protection in MVPN?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,176,240)">[af] OK I obviously wasn=E2=80=99t clear. What I=E2=80=
=99m looking for is something like=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">The pr=
ocedures described in this document are optional to enable an operator to p=
rovide protection for multicast services. An operator would enable these me=
chanisms using &lt;foo&gt; and it is assumed that these mechanisms would be=
 supported by all &lt;what?&gt; in the network for the procedures to work. =
In the case that a BGP implementation does not recognise or is configured t=
o not support the extensions defined in this document, it will respond &lt;=
somehow&gt; as described in &lt;rfc????&gt;. This would result in &lt;somet=
hing&gt;.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><font c=
olor=3D"#6aa84f">GIM2&gt;&gt; I think I&#39;ve got the idea now. Would appe=
nding the new paragraph to the Introduction address your comment:</font></d=
iv><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">NEW TEXT:</font></div><font color=3D"#6aa84=
f">=C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedures described in this document are optional to e=
nable an<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operator to provide protection for multicast servi=
ces in BGP/MPLS IP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0VPNs.=C2=A0 An operator would enable the=
se mechanisms using a method<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed in Section 3 in comb=
ination with the redundancy provided by<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0a standby PE connec=
ted to the source of the multicast flow, and it is<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0assumed =
that all PEs in the network would support these mechanisms<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
for the procedures to work.=C2=A0 In the case that a BGP implementation<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0does not recognize or is configured to not support the extensi=
ons<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document, it will continue to provide t=
he multicast<br></font><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">=C2=A0 =C2=A0service, a=
s described in [RFC6513].=C2=A0</font></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"=
><div class=3D"gmail-m_5797194647049017863WordSection1"><div><div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><blockquote styl=
e=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-righ=
t:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a =
way to know that a P-tunnel<br>is up.=C2=A0 You don&#39;t say, however, if =
being unable to determine that the<br>P-tunnel is up using this method is e=
quivalent to determining that the<br>P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 y=
ou have talked about the &quot;tunnel&#39;s<br>state is not known to be dow=
n&quot;.)<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;=
&gt; This method, as noted in the document, is similar to BGP next-hop trac=
king, may be computationally intensive, and cannot be run frequently. So, i=
n periods between checking whether the root address in the x-PMSI Tunnel at=
tribute is reachable the state is &quot;not known to be down&quot;.<u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">[af] Well, OK. Can you add to say=
 that, =E2=80=9CIf it is not possible to determine whether the state of a t=
unnel is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99, the state shall be considered as =E2=80=98no=
t known to be down=E2=80=99, and it may be treated as if it is =E2=80=98up=
=E2=80=99 so that attempts to use the tunnel are acceptable.=E2=80=9D This =
is probably =E2=80=9Cobvious to one skilled in the art,=E2=80=9D but would =
help this reader.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><font color=3D"#6aa84f">GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank you for the contributed text. I=
&#39;ve added in before &quot;not known to be Down&quot; used in the text (=
with the yellowish background):</font></div><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">NE=
W TEXT:</font></div><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">=C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedure=
 described here is an OPTIONAL procedure that is based</font></div><font co=
lor=3D"#6aa84f">=C2=A0 =C2=A0on a downstream PE taking into account the sta=
tus of P-tunnels rooted<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0at each possible Upstream PE, for i=
ncluding or not including each<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0given PE in the list of cand=
idate UMHs for a given (C-S, C-G) state.<br><span style=3D"background-color=
:rgb(255,229,153)">=C2=A0 =C2=A0If it is not possible to determine whether =
a P-tunnel&#39;s current<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0status is Up, the state shall be c=
onsidered &quot;not known to be Down&quot;,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0and it may be t=
reated as if it is Up so that attempts to use the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0tunnel ar=
e acceptable. </span>=C2=A0The result is that, if a P-tunnel is Down<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0(see Section 3.1), the PE that is the root of the P-tunnel will n=
ot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0be considered for UMH selection.=C2=A0 This will result =
in the downstream<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0PE failing over to use the next Upstream =
PE in the list of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0candidates.=C2=A0 Some downstream PEs cou=
ld arrive at a different<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0conclusion regarding the tunnel&#3=
9;s state because the failure impacts<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0only a subset of bran=
ches.=C2=A0 Because of that, procedures described in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sectio=
n 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.</font><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5797194647049017863WordSect=
ion1"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,=
240)"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bott=
om:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;marg=
in-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">By the way, do you e=
ver say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses<br>(up and down) becaus=
e that could make a big difference?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the document then needs to disc=
uss what impact detection time has on MVPN. For example, if the detection t=
ime is in single-digit seconds, a two-state model can be used. But would it=
 be a useful model if the detection time is in tens of seconds? Should a &q=
uot;not known to be down&quot; state be introduced?<u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">[af] Yes, that *<b>seems</b>* to be the implicati=
on. But is there any different action between =E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D and =E2=
=80=9Cnot known to be down=E2=80=9D? If you have three states then there is=
 (possibly) an implication that tunnels are prioritised by state. I think, =
however, that it is OK to use =E2=80=9Cnot known to be down=E2=80=9D as if =
it was =E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank you.</font></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5797194647049017863WordS=
ection1"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,1=
76,240)"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-b=
ottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;m=
argin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>Note that 3.1=
.2 etc also establish ways to know that the tunnel is up,<br>but not ways t=
o determine whether the tunnel is down.<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; In this section the state of a P-tunnel =
is equated with the state of the last link of that tunnel. The document not=
es that if the link is Up, then the P-tunnel is considered down. It is impl=
ied, that if it is determined that the link is Down, then the state of the =
P-tunnel is considered Down. Would you recommend adding an explanation to t=
he document?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border=
-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt=
;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">To reiterate, &=
quot;I don&#39;t know if it is up&quot; is not the same as &quot;I know it<=
br>is down.&quot;<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>GIM&gt;&gt; Indeed. It is analogous to &quot;it was Up the last time I&#39=
;ve checked on it&quot;. It meant to be used when the interval between chec=
king is significant.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;bord=
er-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6=
pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">[af] Assuming there is typo in what you just wrot=
e =E2=80=93 link not up </span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:r=
gb(0,176,240)">=C3=A8</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)"> tunnel do=
wn.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,176,240)">Also assuming that we don=E2=80=99t go down the =E2=80=9Cthree=
 state=E2=80=9D path, then =E2=80=9Cnot checked for a while=E2=80=9D is sti=
ll =E2=80=9CUp=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">I think it was the phrasing in 3.1.2. It =
sounded like =E2=80=9CHere is a way to know that the tunnel is up=E2=80=9D =
which is a good thing, but does not say that it is exclusive. So, avoiding =
the =E2=80=9Cimplication=E2=80=9D would be a good thing. Something like <u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176=
,240)">OLD<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,176,240)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 A condition to consider a tunnel status as=
 Up can be that the last-<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 hop link of the P-tunnel is=
 Up.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,176,240)">NEW<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 A condition to consider a tunnel st=
atus as Up can be that the last-<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 hop link of the P-tu=
nnel is Up.=C2=A0 Conversely, if the last-hop link of<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0the P-tunnel is Down then this can be taken as an indication that<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240=
)"> =C2=A0=C2=A0the P-tunnel is Down.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">END</span></p></blockquote><=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">GIM2&gt;&g=
t; Many thanks for the new text. Updated accordingly.=C2=A0</font></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5797194647049017863WordS=
ection1"><div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;b=
order-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0c=
m 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<br>3.1.2<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using this method when a fast restoration mec=
hanism (such as MPLS FRR<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC4090]) is in place for the lin=
k requires careful consideration<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0and coordination of defect=
 detection intervals for the link and the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0tunnel.=C2=A0 In =
many cases, it is not practical to use both protection<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0meth=
ods at the same time.<br><br>OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)=
<br><br>I think you have to give implementation guidance.<u></u><u></u></p>=
</blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; I agree, an operationa=
l recommendation could be helpful. Usually, in case of multi-layered protec=
tion, detection intervals on the higher layer are 10 times of guaranteed re=
storation time of the lower layer. Would you recommend adding this to the t=
ext as an example of a deployment?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,176,240)">[af] An example would be fine (and a forward reference from =
here). But it would be fine, maybe better, to offer half a sentence of guid=
ance. So=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9Dnot practical to use both protection methods at t=
he same time because &lt;adverse interactions?&gt;=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D</span=
></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f=
">GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank you for the explanation. Extended the last sentence:</=
font></div><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">NEW TEXT:</font></div><font color=
=3D"#6aa84f">=C2=A0 =C2=A0In many cases, it is not practical to use both pr=
otection<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0methods at the same time because uncorrelated time=
rs might cause<br></font><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">=C2=A0 =C2=A0unnecess=
ary switchovers and destabilize the network.=C2=A0</font></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow=
-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5797194647049017863WordSection1">=
<div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:non=
e;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-lef=
t:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">All of 3.1.x are timid abo=
ut the use of the mechanisms they describe.<br><br>I think that the end of =
3.1 should say that an implementation may choose<br>to use any of these mec=
hanisms to determine the status of the P-tunnel.<u></u><u></u></p></blockqu=
ote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; Will the following text reflect=
 that:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">NEW TEXT:<u></u><=
u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0An implementation may s=
upport any combination of the methods<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in this sec=
tion and provide a network operator with control<u></u><u></u></p><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0to choose which one to use in the particula=
r deployment.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">[af] Good.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:no=
ne;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0c=
m 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">3.1.6<=
br><br>What should I do if I don&#39;t recognise or support the setting of =
the BFD<br>Mode field?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the same handling applies as for the malform=
ed attribute:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0If=
 malformed, the UPDATE<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0message SHALL be handled using the a=
pproach of Attribute Discard per<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC7606].=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">I propose to extend the applicability of the rule with the followi=
ng update to the sentence:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">NEW TEXT:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0The BFD Discriminator attribute MUST be considered malformed if its<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0length is not a non-zero multiple of four.=C2=A0 If the settin=
g of the BFD<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mode field is not recognized or not supported,=
 or the attribute<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0considered malformed, the UPDATE message =
SHALL be handled using the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0approach of Attribute Discard pe=
r [RFC7606].<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">[af] This is =
a bit subtle and refers also to my first point in this email. If the settin=
g of the BFD Mode is not recognised or not supported, then it is likely bec=
ause this specification is not supported. Therefore, this specification can=
not mandate how the implementation will behave. I think you have to separat=
e:<u></u><u></u></span></p><ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc"><li c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_5797194647049017863MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:rgb(0,1=
76,240);margin-left:0cm">The malformed SHALL be handled using Attribute Dis=
card according to [RFC7606]<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_57971946=
47049017863MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240);margin-left:0cm"=
>An unknown or unsupported attribute will be handled by implementations acc=
ording to the procedures for unknown attributes described in &lt;foo&gt;<u>=
</u><u></u></li></ul><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">GIM2&gt;&gt; I th=
ought of a different &quot;unsupported&quot; scenario. Consider BFD Discrim=
inator attribute is supported but an implementation does not recognize the =
value in the BFD Mode field. In the case the BFD Discriminator is unknown o=
r unsupported procedures defined for the optional transitive path attribute=
 in Section 5 of RFC 4271 must be followed. I&#39;ve removed the recent upd=
ated and added the reference to RFC 4271 (added as the Normative reference)=
 following the definition of the new attribute:</font></div><div><font colo=
r=3D"#6aa84f">NEW TEXT:</font></div><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0This document defines the format and ways of using a new BGP<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0attribute called the &quot;BFD Discriminator&quot;.=C2=A0 It is an op=
tional<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0transitive BGP attribute.=C2=A0 An implementation th=
at does not recognize<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0or is configured not to support this =
attribute MUST follow procedures<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined for optional trans=
itive path attributes in Section 5 of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC4271].=C2=A0</fon=
t><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"=
EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_579719464=
7049017863WordSection1"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p></=
div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:no=
ne;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-le=
ft:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4.1<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0T=
he normal and the standby C-multicast routes must have their Local<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Preference attribute adjusted<br><br>Should this be &quot;MUST&qu=
ot;?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; =
I think that is not an actionable &#39;must&#39;. It could be expressed as<=
u></u><u></u></p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30pt;margin-r=
ight:0cm"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The Local Preference attribute o=
f the normal and the standby C-multicast route needs to be adjusted.<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would you recomm=
end using the re-worded passage?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176=
,240)">[af] The alternative text is good.</span></p></div></div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">GIM2&gt;&gt; Done.=C2=A0</font></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5797194647049017863Wo=
rdSection1"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:no=
ne;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-le=
ft:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=3D=3DNits:=3D=3D<br><br>=
<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-=
right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">Section 3 has<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because of that, procedures described i=
n Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513]<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be used when using I-PMSI=
 P-tunnels.<br><br>Aren&#39;t those procedures already mandatory? That sect=
ion of 6513 already<br>uses &quot;MUST&quot; (although it oes go on to say =
that it might not be possible<br>to apply the procedure and delegates proce=
ssing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -<br>peculiarly using lowercase must for that dele=
gation). I wonder whether<br>you are saying &quot;this case is covered by t=
he procedures of Section 9.1.1<br>of [RFC6513]&quot; or are you actually de=
fining new normative behaviour?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the use of lower case &#39;must&#39=
; is ambiguous and somewhat confusing. You are right, the intention is to r=
efer to Section 9.1.1 as the mandatory behavior. But neither 9.1.2, nor 9.1=
.3 use the normative language. What would you recommend?<u></u><u></u></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">[af] Maybe=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)">=E2=80=9CBecaus=
e of that, the procedures of Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] are applicable. Tha=
t document is a foundation for this document and its processes all apply he=
re. Section 9.1.1 mandates the use of specific procedures for sending intra=
-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes.=E2=80=9D</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank you for the text.=
 Updated accordingly with noting &quot;when using I-PMSI P-tunnels&quot;</f=
ont></div><div><font color=3D"#6aa84f">NEW TEXT:</font></div><div><font col=
or=3D"#6aa84f">Because of that, the procedures of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 9=
.1.1 of [RFC6513] are applicable when using I-PMSI<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0P-tunnel=
s.=C2=A0 That document is a foundation for this document, and its<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0processes all apply here.=C2=A0 Section 9.1.1 mandates the use of sp=
ecific<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes.</=
font><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"gmail-m_57971=
94647049017863WordSection1"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-=
right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">4.1<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0As long as C-S is reachable via the Primary<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Upstream PE and the Upstream PE is the Primary Upstream PE.<br=
><br>This sentence doesn&#39;t seem to be complete. What is the consequence=
 of<br>this condition?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">GIM&gt;&gt; It suppose to be<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0As long as<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0C-S is reachable via the Primary Upstream PE, the Upstre=
am PE is the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Primary Upstream PE.<u></u><u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is it better?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,176,240)">[af] That makes sense<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,176,240)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p=
></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [bess] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-11
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Hi again,

=20

Thanks for rapid convergence.

=20

All good.

=20

Adrian

=20

Section 3 notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined
in this section) is OPTIONAL. I didn't see anything similar in sections
4 and 5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since
this document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures
are optional.

Actually it would be good to clarify how all these procedures fit in
with "legacy" deployments, and how they are all optional procedures. I
think that needs a short statement in the Introduction and a small
section of its own (maybe between 6 and 7).

GIM>> Thank you for the suggestion. I've updated the Introduction in =
this way:

OLD TEXT:

   Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover by
   not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange at recovery
   time.

   Moreover, section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism, that
   uses a combination of these two mechanisms.  This approach has
   similarities with the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve
   failover times when PIM routing is used in a network given some
   topology and metric constraints.

NEW TEXT:

   Section 4 describes optional protocol extensions that can speed up
   failover by not requiring any multicast VPN routing message exchange
   at recovery time.

   Moreover, Section 5 describes a "hot leaf standby" mechanism that can
   be used to improve failover time in MVPN.  The approach combines
   mechanisms defined in Section 3 and Section 4 has similarities with
   the solution described in [RFC7431] to improve failover times when
   PIM routing is used in a network given some topology and metric
   constraints.

I think that Section 5 is intended to explain how introduced BGP =
extensions and their use described in Section 3 and Section 4 enable =
operators to provide protection for multicast services. Would you =
suggest adding a new text to the section to highlight particular aspects =
of introducing protection in MVPN?

[af] OK I obviously wasn=E2=80=99t clear. What I=E2=80=99m looking for =
is something like=E2=80=A6

The procedures described in this document are optional to enable an =
operator to provide protection for multicast services. An operator would =
enable these mechanisms using <foo> and it is assumed that these =
mechanisms would be supported by all <what?> in the network for the =
procedures to work. In the case that a BGP implementation does not =
recognise or is configured to not support the extensions defined in this =
document, it will respond <somehow> as described in <rfc????>. This =
would result in <something>.

GIM2>> I think I've got the idea now. Would appending the new paragraph =
to the Introduction address your comment:

NEW TEXT:

   The procedures described in this document are optional to enable an
   operator to provide protection for multicast services in BGP/MPLS IP
   VPNs.  An operator would enable these mechanisms using a method
   discussed in Section 3 in combination with the redundancy provided by
   a standby PE connected to the source of the multicast flow, and it is
   assumed that all PEs in the network would support these mechanisms
   for the procedures to work.  In the case that a BGP implementation
   does not recognize or is configured to not support the extensions
   defined in this document, it will continue to provide the multicast

   service, as described in [RFC6513].=20

=20

[af] Perfect

 It is curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a =
P-tunnel
is up.  You don't say, however, if being unable to determine that the
P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining that the
P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about the "tunnel's
state is not known to be down".)

GIM>> This method, as noted in the document, is similar to BGP next-hop =
tracking, may be computationally intensive, and cannot be run =
frequently. So, in periods between checking whether the root address in =
the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute is reachable the state is "not known to be =
down".

[af] Well, OK. Can you add to say that, =E2=80=9CIf it is not possible =
to determine whether the state of a tunnel is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99, the =
state shall be considered as =E2=80=98not known to be down=E2=80=99, and =
it may be treated as if it is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99 so that attempts to =
use the tunnel are acceptable.=E2=80=9D This is probably =
=E2=80=9Cobvious to one skilled in the art,=E2=80=9D but would help this =
reader.

GIM2>> Thank you for the contributed text. I've added in before "not =
known to be Down" used in the text (with the yellowish background):

NEW TEXT:

   The procedure described here is an OPTIONAL procedure that is based

   on a downstream PE taking into account the status of P-tunnels rooted
   at each possible Upstream PE, for including or not including each
   given PE in the list of candidate UMHs for a given (C-S, C-G) state.
   If it is not possible to determine whether a P-tunnel's current
   status is Up, the state shall be considered "not known to be Down",
   and it may be treated as if it is Up so that attempts to use the
   tunnel are acceptable.  The result is that, if a P-tunnel is Down
   (see Section 3.1), the PE that is the root of the P-tunnel will not
   be considered for UMH selection.  This will result in the downstream
   PE failing over to use the next Upstream PE in the list of
   candidates.  Some downstream PEs could arrive at a different
   conclusion regarding the tunnel's state because the failure impacts
   only a subset of branches.  Because of that, procedures described in
   Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.

=20

[af] Thanks

 By the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two statuses
(up and down) because that could make a big difference?

GIM>> I think that the document then needs to discuss what impact =
detection time has on MVPN. For example, if the detection time is in =
single-digit seconds, a two-state model can be used. But would it be a =
useful model if the detection time is in tens of seconds? Should a "not =
known to be down" state be introduced?

[af] Yes, that *seems* to be the implication. But is there any different =
action between =E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cnot known to be =
down=E2=80=9D? If you have three states then there is (possibly) an =
implication that tunnels are prioritised by state. I think, however, =
that it is OK to use =E2=80=9Cnot known to be down=E2=80=9D as if it was =
=E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D.

GIM2>> Thank you.

3.1.2

   Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such as MPLS FRR
   [RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires careful consideration
   and coordination of defect detection intervals for the link and the
   tunnel.  In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection
   methods at the same time.

OK, I considered them carefully. Now what? :-)

I think you have to give implementation guidance.

GIM>> I agree, an operational recommendation could be helpful. Usually, =
in case of multi-layered protection, detection intervals on the higher =
layer are 10 times of guaranteed restoration time of the lower layer. =
Would you recommend adding this to the text as an example of a =
deployment?=20

[af] An example would be fine (and a forward reference from here). But =
it would be fine, maybe better, to offer half a sentence of guidance. =
So=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9Dnot practical to use both protection methods at the =
same time because <adverse interactions?>=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D

GIM2>> Thank you for the explanation. Extended the last sentence:

NEW TEXT:

   In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection
   methods at the same time because uncorrelated timers might cause

   unnecessary switchovers and destabilize the network.=20

=20

[af] Great

3.1.6

What should I do if I don't recognise or support the setting of the BFD
Mode field?

GIM>> I think that the same handling applies as for the malformed =
attribute:

   If malformed, the UPDATE
   message SHALL be handled using the approach of Attribute Discard per

   [RFC7606].=20

I propose to extend the applicability of the rule with the following =
update to the sentence:

NEW TEXT:

   The BFD Discriminator attribute MUST be considered malformed if its
   length is not a non-zero multiple of four.  If the setting of the BFD
   Mode field is not recognized or not supported, or the attribute
   considered malformed, the UPDATE message SHALL be handled using the
   approach of Attribute Discard per [RFC7606].

 [af] This is a bit subtle and refers also to my first point in this =
email. If the setting of the BFD Mode is not recognised or not =
supported, then it is likely because this specification is not =
supported. Therefore, this specification cannot mandate how the =
implementation will behave. I think you have to separate:

*	The malformed SHALL be handled using Attribute Discard according to =
[RFC7606]
*	An unknown or unsupported attribute will be handled by implementations =
according to the procedures for unknown attributes described in <foo>

GIM2>> I thought of a different "unsupported" scenario. Consider BFD =
Discriminator attribute is supported but an implementation does not =
recognize the value in the BFD Mode field. In the case the BFD =
Discriminator is unknown or unsupported procedures defined for the =
optional transitive path attribute in Section 5 of RFC 4271 must be =
followed. I've removed the recent updated and added the reference to RFC =
4271 (added as the Normative reference) following the definition of the =
new attribute:

NEW TEXT:

   This document defines the format and ways of using a new BGP
   attribute called the "BFD Discriminator".  It is an optional
   transitive BGP attribute.  An implementation that does not recognize
   or is configured not to support this attribute MUST follow procedures
   defined for optional transitive path attributes in Section 5 of
   [RFC4271].=20

=20

[af] That captures what I wanted to see. Thanks

=3D=3DNits:=3D=3D

Section 3 has

   Because of that, procedures described in Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513]
   MUST be used when using I-PMSI P-tunnels.

Aren't those procedures already mandatory? That section of 6513 already
uses "MUST" (although it oes go on to say that it might not be possible
to apply the procedure and delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -
peculiarly using lowercase must for that delegation). I wonder whether
you are saying "this case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.1
of [RFC6513]" or are you actually defining new normative behaviour?

GIM>> I think that the use of lower case 'must' is ambiguous and =
somewhat confusing. You are right, the intention is to refer to Section =
9.1.1 as the mandatory behavior. But neither 9.1.2, nor 9.1.3 use the =
normative language. What would you recommend?

[af] Maybe=E2=80=A6

=E2=80=9CBecause of that, the procedures of Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] =
are applicable. That document is a foundation for this document and its =
processes all apply here. Section 9.1.1 mandates the use of specific =
procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes.=E2=80=9D

GIM2>> Thank you for the text. Updated accordingly with noting "when =
using I-PMSI P-tunnels"

NEW TEXT:

Because of that, the procedures of
   Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] are applicable when using I-PMSI
   P-tunnels.  That document is a foundation for this document, and its
   processes all apply here.  Section 9.1.1 mandates the use of specific
   procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D Routes.

=20

[af] Fine


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi again,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Thanks for =
rapid convergence.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>All =
good.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><div><blockquote=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Section 3 =
notes that the procedure (presumably the procedure defined<br>in this =
section) is OPTIONAL. I didn't see anything similar in sections<br>4 and =
5 stating that those procedures are optional. Presumably, since<br>this =
document is not updating any other RFCs, all of these procedures<br>are =
optional.<br><br>Actually it would be good to clarify how all these =
procedures fit in<br>with &quot;legacy&quot; deployments, and how they =
are all optional procedures. I<br>think that needs a short statement in =
the Introduction and a small<br>section of its own (maybe between 6 and =
7).<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>GIM&gt;&gt; =
Thank you for the suggestion. I've updated the Introduction in this =
way:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>OLD =
TEXT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Section 4 describes protocol extensions that can speed up failover =
by<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;not requiring any multicast VPN routing message =
exchange at recovery<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;time.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Moreover, =
section 5 describes a &quot;hot leaf standby&quot; mechanism, =
that<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;uses a combination of these two mechanisms.&nbsp; =
This approach has<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;similarities with the solution =
described in [RFC7431] to improve<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;failover times when =
PIM routing is used in a network given some<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;topology and =
metric constraints.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>NEW =
TEXT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Section 4 describes optional protocol extensions that can speed =
up<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;failover by not requiring any multicast VPN routing =
message exchange<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;at recovery time.<br><br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Moreover, Section 5 describes a &quot;hot leaf standby&quot; =
mechanism that can<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;be used to improve failover time in =
MVPN.&nbsp; The approach combines<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;mechanisms defined in =
Section 3 and Section 4 has similarities with<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;the =
solution described in [RFC7431] to improve failover times when<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;PIM routing is used in a network given some topology and =
metric<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;constraints.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I think =
that Section 5 is intended to explain how introduced BGP extensions and =
their use described in Section 3 and Section 4 enable operators to =
provide protection for multicast services. Would you suggest adding a =
new text to the section to highlight particular aspects&nbsp;of =
introducing protection in MVPN?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] OK I obviously wasn=E2=80=99t clear. What =
I=E2=80=99m looking for is something =
like=E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>The procedures described in this document are =
optional to enable an operator to provide protection for multicast =
services. An operator would enable these mechanisms using &lt;foo&gt; =
and it is assumed that these mechanisms would be supported by all =
&lt;what?&gt; in the network for the procedures to work. In the case =
that a BGP implementation does not recognise or is configured to not =
support the extensions defined in this document, it will respond =
&lt;somehow&gt; as described in &lt;rfc????&gt;. This would result in =
&lt;something&gt;.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>GIM2&gt;&gt; I think I've got the idea now. =
Would appending the new paragraph to the Introduction address your =
comment:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>NEW TEXT:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>&nbsp; &nbsp;The =
procedures described in this document are optional to enable =
an<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;operator to provide protection for multicast services =
in BGP/MPLS IP<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;VPNs.&nbsp; An operator would enable =
these mechanisms using a method<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;discussed in Section 3 =
in combination with the redundancy provided by<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;a standby =
PE connected to the source of the multicast flow, and it is<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;assumed that all PEs in the network would support these =
mechanisms<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;for the procedures to work.&nbsp; In the case =
that a BGP implementation<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;does not recognize or is =
configured to not support the extensions<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;defined in this =
document, it will continue to provide the =
multicast</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>&nbsp; &nbsp;service, as described in =
[RFC6513].&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:red'>[af] Perfect<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><div><blockquote=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;It is =
curious (to me) that 3.1.1 describes a way to know that a P-tunnel<br>is =
up.&nbsp; You don't say, however, if being unable to determine that =
the<br>P-tunnel is up using this method is equivalent to determining =
that the<br>P-tunnel is down. (Previously in 3.1 you have talked about =
the &quot;tunnel's<br>state is not known to be =
down&quot;.)<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>GIM&gt;&gt; =
This method, as noted in the document, is similar to BGP next-hop =
tracking, may be computationally intensive, and cannot be run =
frequently. So, in periods between checking whether the root address in =
the x-PMSI Tunnel attribute is reachable the state is &quot;not known to =
be down&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] Well, OK. Can you add to say that, =
=E2=80=9CIf it is not possible to determine whether the state of a =
tunnel is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99, the state shall be considered as =
=E2=80=98not known to be down=E2=80=99, and it may be treated as if it =
is =E2=80=98up=E2=80=99 so that attempts to use the tunnel are =
acceptable.=E2=80=9D This is probably =E2=80=9Cobvious to one skilled in =
the art,=E2=80=9D but would help this =
reader.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>GIM2&gt;&gt; =
Thank you for the contributed text. I've added in before &quot;not known =
to be Down&quot; used in the text (with the yellowish =
background):</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>NEW TEXT:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>&nbsp; &nbsp;The =
procedure described here is an OPTIONAL procedure that is =
based</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>&nbsp; &nbsp;on a downstream PE taking into =
account the status of P-tunnels rooted<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;at each possible =
Upstream PE, for including or not including each<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;given =
PE in the list of candidate UMHs for a given (C-S, C-G) state.<br><span =
style=3D'background:#FFE599'>&nbsp; &nbsp;If it is not possible to =
determine whether a P-tunnel's current<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;status is Up, the =
state shall be considered &quot;not known to be Down&quot;,<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;and it may be treated as if it is Up so that attempts to use =
the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;tunnel are acceptable. </span>&nbsp;The result is =
that, if a P-tunnel is Down<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;(see Section 3.1), the PE =
that is the root of the P-tunnel will not<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;be considered =
for UMH selection.&nbsp; This will result in the downstream<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;PE failing over to use the next Upstream PE in the list =
of<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;candidates.&nbsp; Some downstream PEs could arrive at =
a different<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;conclusion regarding the tunnel's state =
because the failure impacts<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;only a subset of =
branches.&nbsp; Because of that, procedures described in<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] MUST be used when using I-PMSI =
P-tunnels.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:red'>[af] Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><div><blockquote=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;By =
the way, do you ever say that a P-tunnel has just these two =
statuses<br>(up and down) because that could make a big =
difference?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>GIM&gt;&gt; =
I think that the document then needs to discuss what impact detection =
time has on MVPN. For example, if the detection time is in single-digit =
seconds, a two-state model can be used. But would it be a useful model =
if the detection time is in tens of seconds? Should a &quot;not known to =
be down&quot; state be introduced?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] Yes, that *<b>seems</b>* to be the =
implication. But is there any different action between =
=E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cnot known to be down=E2=80=9D? If you =
have three states then there is (possibly) an implication that tunnels =
are prioritised by state. I think, however, that it is OK to use =
=E2=80=9Cnot known to be down=E2=80=9D as if it was =
=E2=80=9Cup=E2=80=9D.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank =
you.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><div><blockquote=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>3.1.2<br><br=
>&nbsp; &nbsp;Using this method when a fast restoration mechanism (such =
as MPLS FRR<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;[RFC4090]) is in place for the link requires =
careful consideration<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;and coordination of defect =
detection intervals for the link and the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;tunnel.&nbsp; =
In many cases, it is not practical to use both protection<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;methods at the same time.<br><br>OK, I considered them carefully. =
Now what? :-)<br><br>I think you have to give implementation =
guidance.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>GIM&gt;&gt; =
I agree, an operational recommendation could be helpful. Usually, in =
case of multi-layered protection, detection intervals on the higher =
layer are 10 times of guaranteed restoration time of the lower layer. =
Would you recommend adding this to the text as an example of a =
deployment?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] An example would be fine (and a forward =
reference from here). But it would be fine, maybe better, to offer half =
a sentence of guidance. So=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9Dnot practical to use both =
protection methods at the same time because &lt;adverse =
interactions?&gt;=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank you for the explanation. =
Extended the last sentence:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>NEW =
TEXT:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>&nbsp; &nbsp;In many cases, it is not practical =
to use both protection<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;methods at the same time because =
uncorrelated timers might cause</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>&nbsp; &nbsp;unnecessary =
switchovers and destabilize the network.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:red'>[af] Great<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><div><blockquote=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>3.1.6<br><br=
>What should I do if I don't recognise or support the setting of the =
BFD<br>Mode field?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>GIM&gt;&gt; =
I think that the same handling applies as for the malformed =
attribute:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;If malformed, the UPDATE<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;message SHALL be handled =
using the approach of Attribute Discard per<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;[RFC7606].&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I propose =
to extend the applicability of the rule with the following update to the =
sentence:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>NEW =
TEXT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;The BFD Discriminator attribute MUST be considered malformed if =
its<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;length is not a non-zero multiple of four.&nbsp; If =
the setting of the BFD<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Mode field is not recognized or =
not supported, or the attribute<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;considered malformed, =
the UPDATE message SHALL be handled using the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;approach =
of Attribute Discard per [RFC7606].<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] This is a bit subtle and refers also to my =
first point in this email. If the setting of the BFD Mode is not =
recognised or not supported, then it is likely because this =
specification is not supported. Therefore, this specification cannot =
mandate how the implementation will behave. I think you have to =
separate:</span><o:p></o:p></p><ul type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3Dgmail-m5797194647049017863msolistparagraph =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>The malformed SHALL be =
handled using Attribute Discard according to =
[RFC7606]<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3Dgmail-m5797194647049017863msolistparagraph =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>An unknown or =
unsupported attribute will be handled by implementations according to =
the procedures for unknown attributes described in =
&lt;foo&gt;<o:p></o:p></li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>GIM2&gt;&gt; I =
thought of a different &quot;unsupported&quot; scenario. Consider BFD =
Discriminator attribute is supported but an implementation does not =
recognize the value in the BFD Mode field. In the case the BFD =
Discriminator is unknown or unsupported procedures defined for the =
optional transitive path attribute in Section 5 of RFC 4271 must be =
followed. I've removed the recent updated and added the reference to RFC =
4271 (added as the Normative reference) following the definition of the =
new attribute:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>NEW =
TEXT:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>&nbsp; &nbsp;This document defines the format =
and ways of using a new BGP<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;attribute called the =
&quot;BFD Discriminator&quot;.&nbsp; It is an optional<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;transitive BGP attribute.&nbsp; An implementation that does not =
recognize<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;or is configured not to support this attribute =
MUST follow procedures<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;defined for optional transitive =
path attributes in Section 5 of<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;[RFC4271].&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:red'>[af] That captures what I wanted to see. =
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><div><blockquote=
 style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>=3D=3DNits:=3D=3D<=
o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Section 3 =
has<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Because of that, procedures described in Section =
9.1.1 of [RFC6513]<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;MUST be used when using I-PMSI =
P-tunnels.<br><br>Aren't those procedures already mandatory? That =
section of 6513 already<br>uses &quot;MUST&quot; (although it oes go on =
to say that it might not be possible<br>to apply the procedure and =
delegates processing to 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 -<br>peculiarly using lowercase =
must for that delegation). I wonder whether<br>you are saying &quot;this =
case is covered by the procedures of Section 9.1.1<br>of [RFC6513]&quot; =
or are you actually defining new normative =
behaviour?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>GIM&gt;&gt; =
I think that the use of lower case 'must' is ambiguous and somewhat =
confusing. You are right, the intention is to refer to Section 9.1.1 as =
the mandatory behavior. But neither 9.1.2, nor 9.1.3 use the normative =
language. What would you recommend?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>[af] Maybe=E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:#00B0F0'>=E2=80=9CBecause of that, the procedures of =
Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] are applicable. That document is a foundation =
for this document and its processes all apply here. Section 9.1.1 =
mandates the use of specific procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D =
Routes.=E2=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>GIM2&gt;&gt; Thank you for the text. Updated =
accordingly with noting &quot;when using I-PMSI =
P-tunnels&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>NEW =
TEXT:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#6AA84F'>Because of that, the procedures of<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Section 9.1.1 of [RFC6513] are applicable when using =
I-PMSI<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;P-tunnels.&nbsp; That document is a foundation =
for this document, and its<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;processes all apply =
here.&nbsp; Section 9.1.1 mandates the use of specific<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;procedures for sending intra-AS I-PMSI A-D =
Routes.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:red'>[af] =
Fine<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_06A0_01D6AD7A.7D2EC200--



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Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Multicast VPN Fast Upstream Failover
        Authors         : Thomas Morin
                          Robert Kebler
                          Greg Mirsky
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12.txt
	Pages           : 24
	Date            : 2020-10-28

Abstract:
   This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that
   allow fast failover for upstream failures by allowing downstream PEs
   to consider the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when selecting
   the upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow.  The fast failover is
   enabled by using RFC 8562 BFD for Multipoint Networks and the new BGP
   Attribute - BFD Discriminator.  Also, the document introduces a new
   BGP Community, Standby PE, extending BGP MVPN routing so that a
   C-multicast route can be advertised toward a Standby Upstream PE.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover/

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--000000000000bd8d4d05b2c5765b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Dear All,
updates address comments from the RtgDir review by Adrian Farrel.

Regards,
Greg

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 6:45 PM
Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Multicast VPN Fast Upstream Failover
        Authors         : Thomas Morin
                          Robert Kebler
                          Greg Mirsky
        Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12.txt
        Pages           : 24
        Date            : 2020-10-28

Abstract:
   This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures that
   allow fast failover for upstream failures by allowing downstream PEs
   to consider the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when selecting
   the upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow.  The fast failover is
   enabled by using RFC 8562 BFD for Multipoint Networks and the new BGP
   Attribute - BFD Discriminator.  Also, the document introduces a new
   BGP Community, Standby PE, extending BGP MVPN routing so that a
   C-multicast route can be advertised toward a Standby Upstream PE.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>updates address comments from the RtgDir rev=
iew by Adrian Farrel.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg<br><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">-------=
--- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br=
>Date: Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 6:45 PM<br>Subject: [bess] I-D Action: draft-ie=
tf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12.txt<br>To:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announc=
e@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Cc:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bes=
s@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Multicast VPN Fast Upstream Failover<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Thom=
as Morin<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Robert Kebler<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg Mirsky<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 24<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2020-10-28<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines multicast VPN extensions and procedures =
that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0allow fast failover for upstream failures by allowing downstre=
am PEs<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to consider the status of Provider-Tunnels (P-tunnels) when se=
lecting<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the upstream PE for a VPN multicast flow.=C2=A0 The fast failo=
ver is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0enabled by using RFC 8562 BFD for Multipoint Networks and the =
new BGP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Attribute - BFD Discriminator.=C2=A0 Also, the document introd=
uces a new<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP Community, Standby PE, extending BGP MVPN routing so that =
a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0C-multicast route can be advertised toward a Standby Upstream =
PE.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failo=
ver/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover/</a><br>
<br>
There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-1=
2" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i=
etf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-=
failover-12" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12</a><br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-fa=
ilover-12" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdif=
f?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-12</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 17:26:10 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding@ietf.org>,  "bess-chairs@ietf.org" <bess-chairs@ietf.org>, "bess@ietf.org" <bess@ietf.org>, Zhaohui Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [bess] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Ali,

Sorry for the delayed response.  Comments inline.

On Thu, Sep 03, 2020 at 06:17:01AM +0000, Ali Sajassi (sajassi) wrote:
> Hi Ben,
> 
> Thanks very much for your review and comments. Please refer to my replies inline marked with [AS].
> 
> On 7/14/20, 2:00 PM, "Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker" <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> 
>     Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
>     draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding-09: Discuss
> 
>     When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>     email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>     introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
>     Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>     for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
>     The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-inter-subnet-forwarding/
> 
> 
> 
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     DISCUSS:
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>     (1) Possibly a "discuss discuss", but ...
>     if I'm understanding correctly, the symmetric IRB case over an Ethernet
>     NVO tunnel (not MPLS or IP NVO) described in this document is
>     introducing a new scenario where traffic using router (PE) MAC addresses
>     as source and destination is comingled on the same tunnel with traffic
>     using tenant system MAC addresses as source and destination.  This
>     places an obligation on the tunnel endpoints to properly isolate and
>     process such "internal" tunnel traffic without hampering the ability of
>     tenans systems to communicate.  In a world where tenant systems can
>     appear at any time, using previously unknown MAC addresses, this
>     represents a rather challenging problem: how will the PEs be able to
>     pick (and avertise) MAC addresses that they know will not conflict with
>     any present or future customer systems?  (A similar dilemma led to quite
>     a delay in the processing of draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan, which in that case
>     was resolved by limiting the BFD operation to just the "management VNI"
>     which is not subject to MAC address conflict with customer systems.)  In
>     this docuement's case, we seem to be using a "well-known"/reserved MAC
>     address range from RFC 5798; in principle, this should be enough to
>     avoid conflicts, if customer systems are known to not squat on this
>     reserved range.  However, this document has some text in Section 4.1
>     that indicates that there must be external knowledge that auto-derived
>     MAC addresses in the RFC 5798 ranges "[do] not collide with any customer
>     MAC address".  So I'm left uncertain whether or not this potential
>     problem is addressed or not.  (Also, I don't know if the limit on 255
>     distinct such MAC addresses presents a scaling issue.)
> 
> [AS] Because the MAC addresses based on RFC 5798 is from a reserved range, there should be no conflict with customer MAC addresses that typically use their corresponding vendor OUI. If there was a conflict, then we would have the same issue with VRRP. However, this document doesn't want to give a blank check for auto-derivation of MAC addresses and that's why the statement about "... auto- derived MAC does not collide with any customer MAC address".

Okay, thanks for the extra explanation.

>     Also, is there any risk that the EVPN IRB setup might also want to use
>     VRRPv3, and thus collide on the MAC addresses in a different manner?
> 
> [AS] No, because redundancy procedure in EVPN replaces VRRP protocol. 

Should we say something like that in the document ("because EVPN provides a
superset of VRRP functionality, VRRP MUST NOT be used when EVPN is used")?

>     (1.1) I'm less sure whether there's a similar collision risk for IP
>     addresses -- we assign IP addresses to NVEs (e.g., for use as BGP Next
>     Hop addresses) and these are used as VTEP addresses when encapsulating
>     packets that are going inter-subnet.  I think that at this point in the
>     packet processing we may already know that we're in the the "IRB tunnel"
>     scope and that may be enough to de-conflict any potential IP address
>     collision between NVE and customer addresses.
> 
> [AS] customer IP addresses are from overlay-space; whereas, NVE addresses are from underlay space. Each customer has its own overlay address space that can overlap with other customers or underlay space but that doesn't cause an issue because they are kept in their own set of VRFs (its own set of routing tables).  

Thanks for confirming.

>     (2) Section 7 appears to reference (in a normative fashion)
>     [IRB-EXT-MOBILITY] but there is no such reference.
> 
> [AS] It is fixed now.
> 
>     Similarly (as Murray notes), there are a couple apparent references to
>     [TUNNEL-ENCAP] that are also arguably normative, but the target of the
>     reference is not forthcoming (and the IANA registry does not show a "BGP
>     Encapsulation Extended Community" that is supposedly defined by
>     [TUNNEL-ENCAP]).

Thanks for updating the references.  I want to ask again about the status
as informative vs normative, though -- it seems that we say things like
"The procedures in [EXTENDED-MOBILITY] must be exercised" and require the
use of the [TUNNEL-ENCAP] Extended Communit(ies) alongside the RT-2 EVPN
NLRI.  That seems to make them required reading in order to actually
implement/use this functionality.


> [AS]. "Encapsulation Extended Community" is in IANA registry: https://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-extended-communities/bgp-extended-communities.xhtml. 

Oops, my mistake.  I can only assume that I searched for the string with
leading "BGP", which in hindsight doesn't make much sense.

> 
>     There is also not a listed reference for [EVPN-PREFIX], though one could
>     perhaps surmise that it is intended to be
>     [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement] (given that the latter does
>     allocate EVPN route type 5 for carrying IP Prefix routes, etx.).
>     However, given that this document has text like "MUST advertise local
>     subnet routes as RT-5", this needs to be a normative (not informative)
>     reference.  (We may also want to explicitly reference [EVPN-PREFIX]
>     where those normative requirements are made.)
> 
> [AS] Agreed. Moved it to normative.
> 
>     (3) I'm not sure whether we are modifying the error-handling semantics
>     for RT-2 from what is specified in RFC 7432 (and, furthermore, whether
>     the changes are backwards-compatible).  If so, it seems like we may need
>     an Updates: relationship.  The text in question is in Section 9.1.1
>     (which itself seems problematic, since this section is advertised as an
>     (example) operational model/scenario):
> 
> [AS] We are not modifying the error-handling semantics for RT-2 in RFC 7432. Section 9.1.1 is about IRB and RFC 7432 does not cover IRB - it is for pure L2.  

I guess I can see how anything attempting IRB could be an
error/treat-as-withdraw for a pure 7432 implementation.  But I think the
underlying point remains that we are changing the semantics for the RT-2
EVPN NLRI structure -- we assign semantics to the Label2 field, and we
allow Label1/Label2 to be VNI values in addition to MPLS labels.  Shouldn't
this be indicated somehow, whether an Updates: 7432 relationship, or an
additional reference for the EVPN Route Types registry entry?

>        If the receiving NVE receives a RT-2 with only Label-1 and only a
>        single Route Target corresponding to IP-VRF, or if it receives a RT-2
>        with only a single Route Target corresponding to MAC-VRF but with
>        both Label-1 and Label-2, or if it receives a RT-2 with MAC Address
>        Length of zero, then it MUST treat the route as withdraw [RFC7606]
>        and log an error message.
> 
>     Are all of these treat-as-withdraw behaviors specified in RFC 7432?
> 
> [AS] No, because they are related to malformed IRB advertisements; whereas, RFC 7432 is for pure L2.
> 
>     (4) Let's discuss whether we need more generally a "backwards
>     compatibility" section (I mention a couple other places where this might
>     come into play, in the COMMENT).

Part of why I asked about this was because the behavior of a system
containing a pure 7432 node and a node that attempts to use IRB
functionality was not clear to me.  The above discussion suggests that IRB
will just fail to operate for the legacy node, as opposed to some kind of
degraded L2-only service, but the discussion below suggests that the
L2-only service continues to work.  It seems like it would be worth
mentioning which of these cases would apply, for a mixed deployment.

> 
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     COMMENT:
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>     The shepherd writeup links to the IPR search page, which finds a
>     disclosure, yet also claims "no discussions".  In the absence of
>     explicit discussion, it's not clear that the WG actively concluded that
>     it's appropriate to publish despite the potential encumberance, though
>     I'm told that this is fairly common in the routing area (hence only a COMMENT).
> 
>     Please use the BCP 14 boilerplate as given in RFC 8174 (i.e., including
>     "NOT RECOMMENDED" as a keyword).
> 
> [AS] done.
> 
>     I'm not entirely sure that the mobility procedures are fully specified
>     for producing correct operation, but I'm not confident enough in my
>     understanding of the setup to ballot Discuss over it.  I have lots of
>     inline comments for Section 7 (and subsections).
> 
>     Section 2
> 
>        EVPN [RFC7432] provides an extensible and flexible multi-homing VPN
>        solution over an MPLS/IP network for intra-subnet connectivity among
>        Tenant Systems (TSes) and End Devices that can be physical or
>        virtual; where an IP subnet is represented by an EVI for a VLAN-based
>        service or by an (EVI, VLAN) for a VLAN-aware bundle service.
> 
>     In the terminology section (Broadcast Domain definition) we considered
>     three classes of model: VLAN-bundle, VLAN-based, and VLAN-aware.  Should
>     we mention VLAN-bundle here as well?
> 
> [AS] Nice observation! But when talking about intra-subnet forwarding, a subnet is mapped to a VLAN, that's why we mention VLAN-based and VLAN-aware bundle service.

Ah, thanks for the explanation.

>        The inter-subnet communication is traditionally achieved at
>        centralized L3 Gateway (L3GW) devices where all the inter-subnet
>        forwarding are performed and all the inter-subnet communication
>        policies are enforced.  When two TSes belonging to two different
>     [...]
>        In order to overcome the drawback of centralized layer-3 GW approach,
>        IRB functionality is needed on the PEs (also referred to as EVPN
>        NVEs) attached to TSes in order to avoid inefficient forwarding of
>        tenant traffic (i.e., avoid back-hauling and hair-pinning).  When a
> 
>     It feels like there's a bit of jargon in here that wasn't captured in
>     the terminology section (or references).  None of it seems particularly
>     inscrutable to me, personally, but perhaps it's worth another thought.
> 
>        PE with IRB capability receives tenant traffic over an Attachment
>        Circuit (AC), it can not only locally bridge the tenant intra-subnet
>        traffic but also can locally route the tenant inter-subnet traffic on
>        a packet by packet basis thus meeting the requirements for both intra
>        and inter-subnet forwarding and avoiding non-optimum traffic
>        forwarding associated with centralized layer-3 GW approach.
> 
>     nit(?): mybe "avoiding the non-optimal traffic forwarding"?
> 
> [AS] OK. Changed "non-optimum" to non-optimal"
> 
>     Section 3
> 
>        BD).  If service interfaces for an EVPN PE are configured in VLAN-
>        Based mode (i.e., section 6.1 of RFC7432), then there is only a
>        single BT per MAC-VRF (per EVI) - i.e., there is only one tenant VLAN
>        per EVI.  However, if service interfaces for an EVPN PE are
>        configured in VLAN-Aware Bundle mode (i.e., section 6.3 of RFC7432),
>        then there are several BTs per MAC-VRF (per EVI) - i.e., there are
>        several tenant VLANs per EVI.
> 
>     [Is VLAN-bundle excluded again here?  No need to repeat the response,
>     just noting it as similar.]
> 
> [AS] It is intentionally excluded because in VLAN-bundle, we cannot identify individual VLAN (e.g., it is not VLAN-aware).
> 
>     Section 4
> 
>     I think Figures 2 and 3 would benefit from some visual indication that
>     the "top half" is in "IP space" but the "bottom half" is in "Ethernet
>     space".
> 
>        In symmetric IRB as shown in figure-2, the inter-subnet forwarding
>        between two PEs is done between their associated IP-VRFs.  Therefore,
>        the tunnel connecting these IP-VRFs can be either IP-only tunnel (in
>        case of MPLS or GENEVE encapsulation) or Ethernet NVO tunnel (in case
>        of VxLAN encapsulation).  [...]
> 
>     [editorial]: there's nothing forbidding an Ethernet tunnel for this case
>     when using MPLS or GENEVE, right, it's just inefficient?  This text
>     could be read as saying that it's forbidden.
> 
> [AS] Correct! I added "e.g.," in () so that the readers know that these encaps are examples. 
> 
>        to each BT via its associated IRB interface.  Each BT on a PE is
>        associated with a unique VLAN (e.g., with a BD) where in turn is
>        associated with a single MAC-VRF in case of VLAN-Based mode or a
>        number of BTs can be associated with a single MAC-VRF in case of
>        VLAN-Aware Bundle mode.  Whether the service interface on a PE is
> 
>     nit: missing "it", probably for "where in turn it is associated".
> 
> [AS] added "it".
> 
>        VLAN-Based or VLAN-Aware Bundle mode does not impact the IRB
>        operation and procedures.  It mainly impacts the setting of Ethernet
> 
>     [noting another non-mention of VLAN-bundle mode]
> 
> [AS] same explanation as before.
> 
>        tag field in EVPN BGP routes as described in [RFC7432].
> 
>     Perhaps this is clear to most people, but I think I would benefit from a
>     section reference within 7432 or another sentence indicating how this
>     works.
> 
> [AS] added section number.
> 
>     Figure 4 has a line for "Mx/IPx" in PE1 but no corresponding line in
>     PE2.  Since the IP address of the VRF is anycase, we can presume that
>     PE2 also uses IPx, but I'm not entirely sure what the "Mx" represents
>     for PE1 and what the corresponding behavior for PE2 would be.
> 
> [AS] Mx corresponds to MACx. Because there is no room in the figure to spell out MAC, M is used instead. Since we are using M1 and M2 to corresponds to MAC1 and MAC2 for TS1 and TS2 respectively in the figure, Mx would follow that. I changed "Mx/IPx" to "IPx/Mx" to be consistent with "IP1/M1" and "IP2/M2" notations.

Thanks, both for the update and the explanation.

>     Section 4.1
> 
>        It is worth noting that if the applications that are running on the
>        TSes are employing or relying on any form of MAC security, then
>        either the first model (i.e. using anycast MAC address) should be
>        used to ensure that the applications receive traffic from the same
>        IRB interface MAC address that they are sending to, or if the second
>        model is used, then the IRB interface MAC address MUST be the one
>        used in the initial ARP reply or ND Neighbor Advertisement (NA)for
>        that TS.
> 
>     nit: the "either" here seems redundant.  There are only two choices, so
>     to say "either do (1) or, if you do (2), also do this" is equivalent to
>     just saying "if you do (2), also do this", optionally with a note that
>     (1) also works and is simpler.  E.g.,
> 
> [AS] Done.
> 
>     % It is worth noting that if the applications that are running on the
>     % TSes are employing or relying on any form of MAC security, then when
>     % using the second model (using per-PE MAC addresses), the IRB interface
>     % MAC address MUST be the one used in the initial ARP reply or ND
>     % Neighbor Advertisement (NA) for that TS.
> 
>        Although both of these options are equally applicable to both
>        [...]
>        the VLANs for that tenant.  Furthermore, it simplifies the operation
>        as there is no need for Default Gateway extended community
>        advertisement and its associated MAC aliasing procedure.  Yet another
>        advantage is that following host mobility, the host does not need to
>        refresh the default GW ARP/ND entry.
> 
>     We're really promoting option-1 here, almost to the extent that we
>     should ask if option-2 needs to be mentioned at all.  The only benefit I
>     can think of so far is that for option-1 you have to share MACsec keys
>     all over the place, which option-2 avoids (to be fair, this is a
>     significant advantage in some cases); are there other benefits?
> 
> [AS] that's about it.
> 
>        Where the last octet is generated based on a configurable Virtual
>        Router ID (VRID, range 1-255)).  If not explicitly configured, the
>        default value for the VRID octet is '01'.  Auto-derivation of the
> 
>     We could perhaps not mix decimal and (presumed) hex in the same
>     paragraph.
> 
> [AS] changed "01" to "1".
> 
>        anycast MAC can only be used if there is certainty that the auto-
>        derived MAC does not collide with any customer MAC address.
> 
>     Per the Discuss point, how might such certainty be obtained?  I note
>     that there does not seem to be anything preventing new customer MAC
>     addresses from appearing at any time.  (It also seems like this risk of
>     collision would hold however the PE MAC addresses are selected?)
> 
> [AS] explained previously. 
> 
>        Irrespective of using only the anycast address or both anycast and
>        non-anycast addresses on the same IRB, when a TS sends an ARP request
>        or ND Neighbor Solicitation (NS) to the PE that is attached to, the
>        request is sent for the anycast IP address of the IRB interface
>        associated with the TS's subnet and the reply will use anycast MAC
>        address (in both Source MAC in the Ethernet header and Sender
>        hardware address in the payload).  [...]
> 
>     nit(?): I don't really see how the declarative "the [ARP or NS] request
>     is sent for the anycast IP address can place such a restriction on the
>     TS behavior; are we intending to instead say that "when a [ARP or NS]
>     request is sent for the anycast IP address of [the IRB interface], the
>     reply will use the anycase MAC address", with a more clear cause/effect
>     relationship?
> 
> [AS] changed it from " the reply will use anycast MAC..." to "then the reply will use anycast MAC..."
> 
>        Traffic routed from IP-VRF1 to TS1 SHOULD use the anycast MAC address
>        as source MAC address.
> 
>     When would this SHOULD be violated?
> 
> [AS] changed "SHOULD use" to "uses".
> 
>     Section 5.1
> 
>        When a PE (e.g., PE1 in figure 4 above) learns MAC and IP address of
>        a TS (via an ARP request), it adds the MAC address to the
> 
>     nit: in Section 6.1 this parenthetical is "e.g., via an ARP request".
> 
> [AS] Added "e.g.," here for consistency.  
> 
>        o  Route Distinguisher (RD), Ethernet Segment Identifier, Ethernet
>           Tag ID, MAC Address Length, MAC Address, IP Address Length, IP
>           Address, and MPLS Label1 fields MUST be set per [RFC7432] and
>           [RFC8365].
> 
>     (side note) I would have an easier time understanding what is needed if
>     we phrased this in terms of "the same values as used for [some existing
>     advertisement]", but I'm also not in the target audience for this
>     document, so maybe that is not a good idea.
> 
> [AS] We are following the same language as RFC7432 and other EVPN RFCs here.
> 
>        o  The MPLS Label2 field is set to either an MPLS label or a VNI
>           corresponding to the tenant's IP-VRF.  In case of an MPLS label,
>           this field is encoded as 3 octets, where the high-order 20 bits
>           contain the label value.
> 
>     How do I choose between MPLS label and VNI?
> 
> [AS] The route is sent with an Extended Community that specifies encapsulation type. If the encap type is VxLAN, then the Label2 field is a VNI as described in RFC 8365.

It seems so obvious now that you said it; thanks :)

>     Section 5.2
> 
>        The inclusion of MPLS label2 field in this route signals to the
>        receiving PE that this route is for symmetric IRB mode and MPLS
>        label2 needs to be installed in forwarding path to identify the
>        corresponding IP-VRF.
> 
>     How does the receiving PE know whether the label2 field is a label or a
>     VNI?  (Maybe a section reference to RFC 8365 would be useful, not
>     necessarily right here, but perhaps from earlier in this document.)
> 
> [AS] Please refer to the previous comment.
> 
>        If the receiving PE receives this route with both the MAC-VRF and IP-
>        VRF route targets but the MAC/IP Advertisement route does not include
>        MPLS label2 field and if the receiving PE supports asymmetric IRB
>        mode, then the receiving PE installs the MAC address in the
>        corresponding MAC-VRF and (IP, MAC) association in the ARP table for
>        that tenant (identified by the corresponding IP-VRF route target).
> 
>     [a little surprising to see this given that Section 5 is about
>     "Symmetric IRB Procedures", but I guess it makes sense to say something,
>     so I shouldn't quibble about what form that something takes.]
> 
> [AS] (

(I assume there wasn't supposed to be anything earth-shattering here, since
I was basically just making a side note.)

>        If the receiving PE receives this route with both the MAC-VRF and IP-
>        VRF route targets and if the receiving PE does not support either
>        asymmetric or symmetric IRB modes, then if it has the corresponding
>        MAC-VRF, it only imports the MAC address; otherwise, if it doesn't
>        have the corresponding MAC-VRF, it MUST not import this route.
> 
>     I can't quite tell if this MUST NOT (nit: "NOT" should be capital, too)
>     is just re-expressing the preexisting behavior for non-IRB EVPN behavior
>     or if it's a new normative requirement.
> 
> [AS] changed it to "must not" as it is not a new behavior for L2-only PEs. 
> 
>     Section 5.3
> 
>        only if that PE has locally attached hosts in that subnet.  In order
>        to enable inter-subnet routing across PEs in a deployment where all
>        subnets are not provisioned at all PEs participating in an EVPN IRB
>        instance, PEs MUST advertise local subnet routes as RT-5.  These
> 
>     nit: "where all subnets are not provisioned at all PEs participating"
>     has a slightly different meaning than "where not all subnets are
>     provisioned at all PEs participating".  I suspect the latter is what's
>     intended, though I am not 100% sure.
> 
> [AS] changed it to the latter one as it reads better for the intended purpose.
> 
>        Consider a subnet A that is locally attached to PE1 and subnet B that
>        is locally attached to PE2 and to PE3.  Host A in subnet A, that is
>        attached to PE1 initiates a data packet destined to host B in subnet
>        B that is attached to PE3.  If host B's (MAC, IP) has not yet been
> 
>     Could we perhaps use different names/symbols for subnets and hosts
>     within them?
> 
> [AS] since we are talking about two subnets A & B and only two hosts (each in one subnet). I think the current naming is easy to follow - i.e., host A belongs to subnet A and host B belong to subnet B.

Okay, it's your call.

>        subnet B locally attached.  Once the packet is received at PE2 OR
>        PE3, and the route lookup yields a glean result, an ARP request is
>        triggered and flooded across the layer-2 overlay.  This ARP request
>        would be received and replied to by host B, resulting in host B (MAC,
>        IP) learning at PE3, and its advertisement across the EVPN network.
> 
>     (side note) When I first read this, the "layer-2 overlay" (vs. "layer-3
>     overlay") confused me, but I think I figured it out.  To check: the ARP
>     request on the layer-2 overlay is needed in order to cover all of subnet
>     B (and thus, to meet the criterion that the packet from PE1 has to be
>     able to be processed whether it arrives at PE2 or PE3).  The ARP request
>     triggers the PE to which host B is attached in order to advertise the
>     EVPN route over BGP, so that PE1 learns about host B's (MAC, IP) and can
>     send directly to PE3 in the future.
> 
> [AS] Exactly! I am impressed as this section & the concept described within it, is one of the more complex concept.
> 
>     Section 5.4
> 
>        routed.  Hence, the ingress PE performs an IP lookup in the
>        associated IP-VRF table.  The lookup identifies BGP next hop of
> 
>     (This is a lookup of the destination IP address, right?)
> 
> [AS] correct!
> 
>     Also, nit: "the BGP next hop" (and "the egress PE" going into the next
>     line).
> 
> [AS] It looks OK in my ".txt"
> 
>        label is set to the received label2 in the route.  In case of
>        Ethernet NVO tunnel type, VNI may be set one of two ways:
>        [...]
>        PE's may be configured to operate in one of these two modes depending
>        on the administrative domain boundaries across PEs participating in
>        the NVO, and PE's capability to support downstream VNI mode.
> 
>     Is it safe to mix these two ways in a single deployment, or does the
>     operator need to be careful to provide homogeneous configuration?
> 
> [AS] It can be mixed although it is not typical. 

Okay, so we don't need to put a warning in the document, then.

>     Section 6.2
> 
>        o  Using MAC-VRF route target, it identifies the corresponding MAC-
> 
>     Can a non-zero Ethernet Tag also come into play here (as was the case
>     for Symmetric operation)?
> 
> [AS] yes, Ethernet Tag in here can be either zero or non-zero.

Okay.  (I was obliquely suggesting that the phrasing "Using MAC-VRF route
target (and Ethernet Tag if different from zero" could be used, which would
closely match the language in Section 5.2.  This is not required by any
means, but can be helpful to the reader in giving a uniform/parallel
structure to the document for portions that are similar to each other.)

>           An implementation may choose to consolidate the lookup at the
>           ingress PE's IP-VRF with the lookup at the ingress PE's
>           destination subnet MAC-VRF.  Consideration for such consolidation
>           of lookups is an implementation exercise and thus its
>           specification is outside the scope of this document.
> 
>     (This feels a little redundant with the earlier text in Section 4 (where
>     we described the operation with "collapsed" vs. "consolidate" here).)
> 
> [AS] Agreed. Removed this couple of sentences. 
> 
>        If the receiving PE receives the MAC/IP Advertisement route with MPLS
>        label2 field and it can support symmetric IRB mode, then it should
>        use the MAC-VRF route target to identify its corresponding MAC-VRF
>        table and import the MAC address.  It should use the IP-VRF route
>        target to identify the corresponding IP-VRF table and import the IP
>        address, as specified in symmetric IRB handling.  It MUST NOT import
>        (IP, MAC) association into its ARP table.
> 
>     I don't think I understand why this is a MUST NOT, especially since we
>     do store the (IP, MAC) association in the ARP table in the previous
>     paragraph's case.
> 
> [AS] That's the contrast between asymmetric and symmetric IRB. In asymmetric IRB (previous paragraph), <IP,MAC> association is stored in ARP table; however, in symmetric IRB, this association need not be stored in ARP table. That's why symmetric IRB scales much better than asymmetric IRB. 

Thanks for explaining that symmetric is better/preferred, it helps me
understand the intent here.  That said, this paragraph ~starts with "if ...
it can *support* symmetric IRB mode" (emphasis mine).  It seems like
something of a mismatch to have a MUST NOT use attached only to a "can
support" predicate -- I would have expected the predicate to be "is using
symmetric IRB mode" rather than "can support".

>     Section 7
> 
>     The mobility procedures in Section 15 of RFC 7432 on paper don't have
>     very great security properties -- at any remote signal indicating a
>     mobility event for a given MAC address, a PE advertising reachability to
>     that MAC will withdraw the route.  (Though, this is probably something
>     of a "the entire system is trusted" effect.)  Perhaps local learning
>     would cause it to be reintrodced if the MAC in question had not actually
>     moved away, but there seems to be some risk of flapping and triggering
>     the MAC Duplication detection. 
> 
> [AS] That's why we have MAC duplication detection mechanism and sequence numbering for mobility procedure in case the host moves too fast.

Do you think it is worth mentioning the risk and mitigation in the security
considerations of this document?  ("No" is an okay answer, as it does not
really seem to be a new risk with this document, though of course I
wouldn't mention it if I thought that "no" was the clear/correct answer.)

>     The concrete advice we give in Section
>     7.1 to send a local ARP probe is good, but how rigid does the sequencing
>     need to be amongst (receive EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement, send local ARP
>     probe/wait for response, and withdraw EVPN Mac/IP Advertisement)?  If
>     there was a way to avoid the need to withdraw+readvertise step, it seems
>     like that might be preferable.
> 
> [AS] If the reply to the local ARP probe is positive, then the source PE doesn't withdraw the MAC/IP but rather it readvertised it with a higher sequence number and performs MAC duplication detection. 

The current text does not give me that impression.  I would prefer if we
could reword it somehow to clarify, perhaps "It then sends an ARP probe
locally to ensure that the MAC is gone, and withdraws the EVP MAC/IP
Advertisement route upon confirmation that the MAC is gone".

>     Can we confirm that the backwards- and forwards-compatibility story is
>     okay for mixed deployments with "stock EVPN" vs. IRB-enhanced EVPN (this
>     document)?  It looks like we are using the MAC Mobility Extended
>     Community to signal both MAC and IP mobility events, but I am not sure
>     that I can reason through all the cases and confirm that the right thing
>     happens.
> 
> [AS] Since in this document for a host there is one MAC address and one global IP address (in context of the customer's IP address space), the MAC and IP mobility is one of the same. There is another draft that covers many MACs to one IP address binding as well as many IP addresses to a single MAC binding and the mobility procedures for them.

Okay, so it sounds like we are backwards-compatible in that a non-updated
node will still process the MAC bit and properly ignore the additional IP
information that happens to be present, good.

>     Also, do all NVEs need to be prepared to cope with all three classes of
>     TS behavior at all times?  That seems like something worth stating more
>     clearly.
> 
> [AS]. Sure, I added a sentence to that effect.
> 
>     Section 7.2
> 
>        If EVPN-IRB NVEs are configured to advertise MAC-only routes in
>        addition to MAC-and-IP EVPN routes, then the following steps are
>        taken:
> 
>     Does this configuration need to be globally consistent across all PEs?
>     If so, where do we state this requirement?
> 
> [AS] It is NVE specific - i.e., some NVE can be operating in L2-only mode and thus advertising MAC-only routes; whereas, some other NVEs are configured in IRB mode and thus advertising both routes.

Ah, I think I see now.  Thanks.

>        o  The target NVE upon learning this MAC address in data-plane,
>           updates this MAC address entry in the corresponding MAC-VRF with
>           the local adjacency information (e.g., local interface).  It also
>           recognizes that this MAC has moved and initiates MAC mobility
>           procedures per [RFC7432] by advertising an EVPN MAC/IP
>           Advertisement route with only the MAC address filled in along with
>           MAC Mobility Extended Community with the sequence number
>           incremented by one.
> 
>     The lead-in had "in addition to MAC-and-IP EVPN routes", but this
>     step only does the MAC EVPN route.  It looks like the MAC-and-IP route
>     will be added later, in the third step; would it make sense to switch
>     this to a numbered list and mention that the additional route will be
>     added in step 3?
> 
> [AS] The MAC-and-IP EVPN route that gets sent in the step 3 is the result of ARP request sent in step 2. So, the sequence of the events described in these bullets are good and step-3 cannot be mentioned in step-1 without explaining how it happens (which is step-2).

Thank you for checking.

>           advertised such route previously).  Furthermore, it searches for
>           the corresponding MAC-IP entry and sends an ARP probe for this
>           (MAC,IP) pair.  The ARP request message is sent both locally to
>           all attached TSes in that subnet as well as it is sent to other
>           NVEs participating in that subnet including the target NVE.  Note
> 
>     I think a comment about the sequencing of this ARP request, similar to
>     my comment above, may apply.  But here the ARP request is sent both
>     locally and remotely, whereas previously it was only needed locally.  I
>     confess I don't understand what the difference is between the cases that
>     makes it okay for the Section-7.1 scenario to only send the ARP probe
>     locally.
> 
>     Also, what happens if we get a response back from the local TSes (in
>     addition to the actions from the target NVE covered in the next bullet
>     point)?
> 
> [AS] In section 7.1 the reason the source NVE sends ARP request to only locally attached TSes is because the target NVE has already received an ARP message (gratuitous ARP); however, in section 7.2, the target NVE hasn't received any ARP messages. Therefore, the source NVE sends the ARP request both locally and remotely so that it triggers an ARP response message by moved TS to be received by the target NVE.

Thanks for the explanation of why the remote ARP request is needed.
Could we consider rewording here (as well) to avoid implying that the
withdrawl occurs even when the ARP probe receives a local response and the
NVE will be re-advertising the route?  (It seems a bit more complicated to
write something for this case, so I don't have a concrete suggestion right
at hand.)

>           that the PE would need to maintain a correlation between MAC and
>           MAC-IP route entries in the MAC-VRF to accomplish this.
> 
>     I find this "would need to" language very concerning.  If this is
>     required for correct operation, isn't it a MUST?
> 
> [AS] changed "would need" to "needs".
> 
>        o  All other remote NVE devices upon receiving the MAC/IP
>           advertisement route with MAC Mobility extended community compare
> 
>     Does this only happen when they receive the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement
>     route with both MAC and IP address information (vs. the earlier one with
>     just MAC information)?
> 
> [AS] it happens with both advertisements. 
> 
>        If EVPN-IRB NVEs are configured not to advertise MAC-only routes,
>        then upon receiving the first data packet, it learns the MAC address
> 
>     (editorial) The description for the MAC,MAC+IP case is quite involved and
>     has many separate steps, but the MAC+IP-only case in this paragraph is
>     much simpler, and so the description for it does not have a parallel
>     structure to the MAC,MAC+IP case.  Perhaps splitting into subsections
>     might help make it clear that, despite the difference in complexity, the
>     procedures in question are actually quite parallel in the nature of what
>     role they play.
> 
> [AS] thanks for the suggestion but the vendors who have implemented these procedures are OK with the text.

Okay.

>     Section 7.3
> 
>        On the source NVE, an age-out timer (for the silent host that has
>        moved) is used to trigger an ARP probe.  This age-out timer can be
>        either ARP timer or MAC age-out timer and this is an implementation
>        choice.  The ARP request gets sent both locally to all the attached
>        TSes on that subnet as well as it gets sent to all the remote NVEs
>        (including the target NVE) participating in that subnet.  The source
>        NVE also withdraw the EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement route with only the
>        MAC address (if it has previously advertised such a route).
> 
>     Does this route withdraw occur at the same time that the ARP probe is
>     sent, or only if there is not a response?
> 
> [AS] The withdraw happens upon age-out timer expiration.

Sticking to the theme of my past few comments, I think it would be good to
state this clearly in the document.

>     Also, does this need for a timer-driven full broadcast ARP probe impose
>     any scaling limits on the number of subnets that can be joined via IRB
>     for intra-subnet traffic?  (I don't expect there to be fundamentally
>     different scaling properties than for more typical ARP usage, but it's a
>     question about whether the joining of subnets will cause the limit to be
>     reached before other scaling limits would be reached.)
> 
> [AS] ARP probe is sent on a single subnet corresponding the MAC-VRF for that TS. 
> 
>        The target NVE passes the ARP request to its locally attached TSes
>        and when it receives the ARP response, it updates its MAC-VRF, IP-
>        VRF, and ARP table with the host (MAC, IP) and local adjacency
>        information (e.g., local interface).  It also sends an EVPN MAC/IP
>        advertisement route with both the MAC and IP address fields filled in
>        along with MAC Mobility Extended Community with the sequence number
>        incremented by one.
> 
>     Do we need to mention the possibility of an EVPN MAC/IP Advertisement
>     route with only the MAC address here, as well?
> 
> [AS] no, MAC-only advertisement is the result of data-plane learning a MAC address; whereas, MAC+IP advertisement is the result of learning both MAC and IP addresses when the NVE receives and ARP message from a TS. 
> 
>        All other remote NVE devices upon receiving the MAC/IP Advertisement
>        route route with MAC Mobility extended community compare the sequence
> 
>     [this is the one with both MAC and IP filled in, right?]
> 
> [AS] correct.
> 
>     Section 8.1
> 
>        This extended community is used to carry the PE's MAC address for
>        symmetric IRB scenarios and it is sent with RT-2.
> 
>     It's only needed for specifically the Ethernet NVO tunnel (not MPLS or
>     IP-only NVO) symmetric IRB scenarios, right?
> 
> [AS] That's correct.

Perhaps we should say "for Ethernet NVO symmetric IR scenarios", then?

>     Section 9
> 
>     I see that we only give examples/operational models for the symmetric
>     IRB case and for scenarios with IP subnets behind tenant systems.  Is
>     there any desire to give a similar example for asymmetric IRB?
> 
> [AS] symmetric IRB is a more general case. Once it is covered, one can deduce the scenarios for asymmetric IRB. Besides, these are just examples.

Okay, thank you for the explanation.

>     Section 9, 9.1
> 
>        procedures.  In the following scenarios, without loss of generality,
>        it is assumed that a given tenant is represented by a single IP-VPN
>        instance.  [...]
>        In this scenario, without loss of generality, it is assumed that NVEs
>        operate in VLAN-based service interface mode with one Bridge
>        Table (BT) per MAC-VRF.  [...]
> 
>     Just to check my understanding: the "more general" case would have,
>     e.g., multiple IP-VPN instsances for a single tenant, or ... multiple
>     BTs per MAC-VRF?  
> 
> [AS] Correct!
> 
>     I guess for the former case the IP-VPN instances would
>     be logically separate (absent some central L3GW), but I'm not really
>     sure what the latter case would look like.  Though maybe the VLAN-aware
>     bundling case in the following sentences (with multiple BTs per MAC-VRF)
>     is exactly the generalization being assumed here?
> 
> [AS] Exactly! VLAN-aware bundling case is the case for multiple BTs per MAC-VRF
> 
>     Section 9.1.1
> 
>        o  If the route carries the new Router's MAC Extended Community, and
>           if the receiving NVE uses Ethernet NVO tunnel, then the receiving
>           NVE imports the IP address into IP-VRF with NVE's MAC address
> 
>     What does the receiving NVE do if it uses Ethernet NVO tunnels but the
>     route does not carry the Router's MAC Extended Community?
> 
> [AS] It should get discarded.
> 
>        o  If the receiving NVE ration MPLS encapsulation, then the receiving
>           NVE imports the IP address into IP-VRF with BGP Next Hop address
> 
>     What does "ration" mean here?
> 
> [AS] Thanks for catching it. I replaced it with "uses"
> 
>        If the receiving NVE receives a RT-2 with only Label-1 and only a
>        single Route Target corresponding to IP-VRF, or if it receives a RT-2
>        with only a single Route Target corresponding to MAC-VRF but with
>        both Label-1 and Label-2, or if it receives a RT-2 with MAC Address
>        Length of zero, then it MUST treat the route as withdraw [RFC7606]
>        and log an error message.
> 
>     Is this changing the error handling for the existing RT-2 advertisement?
>     How is such a change backwards compatible?
> 
> [AS] These combinations are invalid in both RFC 7432 and in this document.
> 
>     Also, a "MUST log" without rate-limiting risks mandating a DoS channel.
> 
> [AS] added "SHOULD log"

Thanks.

>     Section 9.1.2
> 
>        o  On the egress NVE, if the packet arrives on Ethernet NVO tunnel
>           (e.g., it is VxLAN encapsulated), then the NVO tunnel header is
> 
>     (side note) I can't decide whether it's good or bad that we use VxLAN as
>     the example here vs. the explicit MPLS/etc. mentions in the previous
>     point.  On the one hand, it lets us mention all the various different
>     implementation technologies, but on the other hand we don't have a
>     coherent thread to tie the steps together.
> 
> [AS] VxLAN processing is more involved than MPLS and thus it is emphasized more.
> 
>     Section 9.2
> 
>        their next hop.  The receiving NVEs perform recursive route
>        resolution to resolve the subnet prefix with its associated ingress
>        NVE so that they know which NVE to forward the packets to when they
>        are destined for that subnet prefix.
> 
>     nit(?): is the "ingress" part important here?  The "forward the packets
>     to" operation would seem to be describing a case where that NVE is
>     acting as egress, at least...
> 
> [AS] You're right! However, since we are talking about control plane, I changed it to the control plane terminology - i.e., I changed "associated ingress NVE" to "advertising NVE". 

Thanks!

>        and MAC-VRF3 across two NVEs.  There are four TSes associated with
>        these three MAC-VRFs - i.e., TS1, TS5 are connected to MAC-VRF1 on
> 
>     [there is no TS5 in the figure]
> 
> [AS] Good catch! Removed TS5.
> 
>     Section 9.2.1
> 
>        o  Label = 0
> 
>     [draft-ietf-bess-evpn-prefix-advertisement seems to describe this field
>     as the "MPLS Label".]
> 
> [AS] Changed it to "MPLS Label"
> 
>        This RT-5 is advertised with one or more Route Targets that have been
>        configured as "export route targets" of the IP-VRF from which the
>        route is originated.
> 
>     This is the only place in this document where we use the phrase "export
>     route target" and no reference is provided; please clarify what is
>     meant.
> [AS] sometimes less is more. I removed "that have been configured as "export route targets""

:)

>        o  It imports the IP prefix into its corresponding IP-VRF that is
>           configured with an import RT that is one of the RTs being carried
>           by the RT-5 route along with the IP address of the associated TS
>           as its next hop.
> 
>     The phrase "that is one of the RTs being carried by the RT-5 route"
>     seems like it leaves a significant degree of freedom to the receiving
>     NVE.  Do we want to make this more precisely specified?
> 
> [AS] an IP-VRF can be associated with more than one RT and as long as one of them match, the receiving PE can import the route.
> 
>     Section 9.2.2
> 
>        The following description of the data-plane operation describes just
>        the logical functions and the actual implementation may differ.  Lets
>        consider data-plane operation when a host on SN1 sitting behind TS1
>        wants to send traffic to a host sitting behind SN3 behind TS3.
> 
>        o  TS1 send a packet with MAC DA corresponding to the MAC-VRF1 IRB
>           interface of NVE1, and VLAN-tag corresponding to MAC-VRF1.
> 
>     [I guess the step where there's an ethernet frame from SN1 to TS1 is
>     boring and okay to skip?]
> 
> [AS] correct (
> 
>     Section 11
> 
>     I agree with the secdir reviewer's comment that incorporating by
>     reference the security considerations of the core protocol RFCs would be
>     worthwhile.
> 
>     Similarly, a reminder seems appropriate (a la RFC 4365) that this VPN
>     scheme does not provide the usual quartet of security properties that we
>     ask about (confidentiality protection, source authentication, integrity
>     protection, replay protection), and that if such functionality is needed
>     it must be provided in some other manner.
> 
> [AS] Added " The VPN scheme described in this document does not provide 
>    the quartet of security properties mentioned in <xref target="RFC4365"/>
>    (confidentiality protection, source authentication, integrity
>    protection, replay protection), and If these are desired, they must be 
>    provided by mechanisms that are outside the scope of the VPN mechanisms."

Thank you.

>        Furthermore, the security consideration for layer-3 routing is this
>        document follows that of [RFC4365] with the exception for application
> 
>     The Security Considerations of RFC 4365 notes that RFC 4111 provides a
>     template "that may be used to evaluate and summarize how a given PPVPN
>     approach (solution) measures up against the PPVPN Security Framework".
>     Given that the IP-layer inter-subnet routing introduced by this document
>     is in some sense a new L3VPN technology, would it be appropriate to fill
>     out that template as it applies here?  It's unfortunate that RFC 7432
>     does not itself fill out the template from RFC 4111, as it would be
>     useful to have that information readily available as well (though I
>     understand that the L2-only parts of the mechanims described in this
>     document are essentially unchanged from RFC 7432 and it is only our
>     responsibility to document otherwise-undocumented critical security
>     flaws).
> 
> [AS] Yes, the L2-only parts of this document (MAC-VRF) are basically the same as RFC 7432.

But the L3 parts are new.  Shouldn't we at least document that part?

>     I think we should note that the asymmetric IRB scheme leaves tenant MAC
>     addresses visible in cleartext (absent other cryptographic protections)
>     over the backbone/underlay, which has potential privacy consequences.
> 
> [AS] The text that I added in this section should cover it. Both tenant MAC and IP addresses are visible in clear text.

Okay.

Thanks for these and all the other updates, as well as the explanations and
confirmation of my explanations for the parts I wasn't sure of.

-Ben

>     The mechanisms in this document bring additional exposure/usage for
>     per-NVE IP and MAC addresses, at least some of which may be (locally)
>     automatically generated in some cases; it might be appropriate to
>     discuss how the system would fail if there were collisions in these
>     identifiers between NVEs.
> 
> [AS] This comment is addressed at the beginning.
> 
>     As alluded to in a couple of my previous comments, we may also wish to
>     discuss any scaling issues (and consequent DoS risks) that may arise due
>     to the need for NVEs to store additional state in ARP tables and
>     IP-VRFs.  (If such risks are negligible, then maybe not.)
> 
>     There probably aren't any additional mobility-related security
>     considerations other than what RFC 7432 discusses (but mentioning
>     mobility concerns specifically may still be worthwhile).
> 
>     Section 14.1
> 
>     RFC 8214 is listed as a normative reference but not cited anywhere.
>     Should it be removed, or citations added?
> 
> [AS]  it is already done.
> 
>     Section 14.2
> 
>     RFC 7606 seems like it should be normative, since we use it to define
>     what "treat the route as withdraw" means, which itself is behavior
>     mandated at a MUST level.
> 
> [AS] OK. 
> 
> 


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : PBB-EVPN ISID-based CMAC-Flush
        Authors         : Jorge Rabadan
                          Senthil Sathappan
                          Kiran Nagaraj
                          M. Miyake
                          T. Matsuda
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bess-pbb-evpn-isid-cmacflush-01.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2020-10-30

Abstract:
   Provider Backbone Bridging (PBB) can be combined with Ethernet VPN
   (EVPN) to deploy Ethernet Local Area Network (ELAN) services in large
   Multi-Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) networks (PBB-EVPN).  Single-
   Active Multi-homing and per-ISID Load-Balancing can be provided to
   access devices and aggregation networks.  In order to speed up the
   network convergence in case of failures on Single-Active Multi-Homed
   Ethernet Segments, PBB-EVPN defines a flush mechanism for Customer
   MACs (CMAC-flush) that works for different Ethernet Segment Backbone
   MAC (BMAC) address allocation models.  This document complements
   those CMAC-flush procedures for cases in which no PBB-EVPN Ethernet
   Segments are defined (the attachment circuit is associated to a zero
   Ethernet Segment Identifier) and a Service Instance Identifier based
   (ISID-based) CMAC-flush granularity is required.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bess-pbb-evpn-isid-cmacflush/

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the BGP Enabled ServiceS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Multicast and Ethernet VPN with Segment Routing Point-to-Multipoint Trees
        Authors         : Rishabh Parekh
                          Clarence Filsfils
                          Arvind Venkateswaran
                          Hooman Bidgoli
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Zhaohui Zhang
	Filename        : draft-parekh-bess-mvpn-evpn-sr-p2mp-02.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2020-10-30

Abstract:
   A Point-to-Multipoint (P2MP) Tree in a Segment Routing domain
   efficiently carries traffic from a Root to a set of Leaves.  This
   document describes extensions to BGP encodings and procedures for
   P2MP trees used in BGP/MPLS IP VPNs and Ethernet VPNs.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-parekh-bess-mvpn-evpn-sr-p2mp/

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A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-parekh-bess-mvpn-evpn-sr-p2mp-02


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