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"Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" , "Tom Kristensen" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] BFCPbis: UDP- and TCP candidates and proto value Thread-Index: AQHSGa3x+izuQLaNQkCcn/MwWSz+h6Cjee0AgASV34CABKx3AIAADJmAgANakACAAA4hAIAAAiIAgAl+NYCAABlDAIAPQs4A Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:38:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9BE360E6-8462-49BC-9491-7143D476EEAD@cisco.com> <28B9D43D-FF01-4294-BCD6-93E72C0C07E1@gmail.com> <42A8BAE9-A6C2-4112-97FC-2DAE01F9AB0D@gmail.com> <35E11A60-C03F-43CF-9958-4E93EC499FF6@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDCE32C@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDCE32C@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.20.182.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F27839ED3E3A46138C1341F95177DE3Fciscocom_" 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([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:42:47 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Christer Holmberg , Paul Kyzivat , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-15.txt Thread-Index: AQHSLs8jnTAKvOUkg0C1WeMWEIqx5qC7cocA///pAwCAAARPgIAAFOKAgAAK3oCAARMWgIAMUlqA Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:42:47 +0000 Message-ID: <1C782CB8-B5D0-4443-9B6B-443D0429C916@cisco.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BC27452@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <0D0D949F-A7B1-4B27-A45E-2C799927CC14@cisco.com> <1477504758174.60572@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDF4C41@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7282fd52-ddb3-4715-acf7-78911c7b063d@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDF5D56@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <92836402-973C-460E-9AF6-905F399F491B@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <92836402-973C-460E-9AF6-905F399F491B@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0OdbnZVxmBpM for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DCD7129628 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:26:55 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-5b107980000009f7-77-581cd2ed8009 Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.42]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id CD.E3.02551.DE2DC185; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 19:26:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.177]) by ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 19:26:51 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" , Alan Ford , "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" , "Tom Kristensen" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] BFCPbis: UDP- and TCP candidates and proto value Thread-Index: AQHSGa3x+izuQLaNQkCcn/MwWSz+h6CjBJQAgATKB4CABHhQAIAAQMmAgANalwD//9npAIAANloAgAkodQCAAFwnoIAPp48AgAA/ZJA= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:26:50 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE1E415@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <9BE360E6-8462-49BC-9491-7143D476EEAD@cisco.com> <28B9D43D-FF01-4294-BCD6-93E72C0C07E1@gmail.com> <42A8BAE9-A6C2-4112-97FC-2DAE01F9AB0D@gmail.com> <35E11A60-C03F-43CF-9958-4E93EC499FF6@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDCE32C@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE1E415ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7lu7bSzIRBuf3GlisPLeC2eLfuqNM FptmfWGzmHFhKrPF+c9A7pUjv9gc2Dym/N7I6rFz1l12jyVLfjJ5rF79kNnj1pSCANYoLpuU 1JzMstQifbsEroyDLyexF/w4z1Rx9v1+lgbGKceZuhg5OCQETCTavkd1MXJyCAmsY5S4tZu7 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"Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" , Paul Kyzivat , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-15.txt Thread-Index: AQHSLs8iIDRpK07DLEqkhcTWQv2V9qC62r6AgAALdACAACXAcP//83CAgAAr4LCAANCOAIAM+fyAgAA++uA= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:29:38 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE1E43C@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BC27452@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <0D0D949F-A7B1-4B27-A45E-2C799927CC14@cisco.com> <1477504758174.60572@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDF4C41@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7282fd52-ddb3-4715-acf7-78911c7b063d@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDF5D56@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <92836402-973C-460E-9AF6-905F399F491B@cisco.com> <1C782CB8-B5D0-4443-9B6B-443D0429C916@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1C782CB8-B5D0-4443-9B6B-443D0429C916@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: 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with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Nov 2016 22:14:59 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (xch-aln-015.cisco.com [173.36.7.25]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uA5MExTA032506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 5 Nov 2016 22:14:59 GMT Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) by XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 17:14:58 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 17:14:58 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Christer Holmberg , Alan Ford , "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" , "Tom Kristensen" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] BFCPbis: UDP- and TCP candidates and proto value Thread-Index: AQHSGa3x+izuQLaNQkCcn/MwWSz+h6Cjee0AgASV34CABKx3AIAADJmAgANakACAAA4hAIAAAiIAgAl+NYCAABlDAIAPQs4AgACkhQCAAVy9gA== Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 22:14:58 +0000 Message-ID: <519C2AAF-5F04-4EF3-BA5F-EA00FE7E0F44@cisco.com> References: <9BE360E6-8462-49BC-9491-7143D476EEAD@cisco.com> <28B9D43D-FF01-4294-BCD6-93E72C0C07E1@gmail.com> <42A8BAE9-A6C2-4112-97FC-2DAE01F9AB0D@gmail.com> <35E11A60-C03F-43CF-9958-4E93EC499FF6@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDCE32C@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE1E415@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE1E415@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.20.182.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_519C2AAF5F044EF3BA5FEA00FE7E0F44ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , Roman Shpount Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] BFCPbis: UDP- and TCP candidates and proto value X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 22:15:09 -0000 --_000_519C2AAF5F044EF3BA5FEA00FE7E0F44ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SeKAmXZlIGdvdCBpdCBkb3duIG9uIG15IGNhbGVuZGFyLg0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQpDaGFybGVzDQoN Ck9uIDExLzQvMTYsIDExOjI2IEFNLCAiQ2hyaXN0ZXIgSG9sbWJlcmciIDxjaHJpc3Rlci5ob2xt YmVyZ0Blcmljc3Nvbi5jb208bWFpbHRvOmNocmlzdGVyLmhvbG1iZXJnQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4+ IHdyb3RlOg0KDQpIaSwNCg0KTm90ZSB0aGF0IEkgaW50ZW5kIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgdGhlIG0tbGlu ZS1wcm90by1tdXN0LW1hdGNoLWRlZmF1bHQtY2FuZGlkaWF0ZS1pbi1hc253ZXIgaXNzdWUgZHVy aW5nIHRoZSBNTVVTSUMgc2Vzc2lvbiBpbiBTZW91bCwgZm9yIHRob3NlIHdobyBhcmUgaW50ZXJl c3RlZC4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNCg0KQ2hyaXN0ZXINCg0KRnJvbTogQ2hhcmxlcyBFY2tlbCAoZWNr ZWxjdSkgW21haWx0bzplY2tlbGN1QGNpc2NvLmNvbV0NClNlbnQ6IDA0IE5vdmVtYmVyIDIwMTYg 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ESMTP id uA5MHSLa009587 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 5 Nov 2016 22:17:28 GMT Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 17:17:27 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 17:17:27 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Christer Holmberg , Paul Kyzivat , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-15.txt Thread-Index: AQHSLs8jnTAKvOUkg0C1WeMWEIqx5qC7cocA///pAwCAAARPgIAAFOKAgAAK3oCAARMWgIAMUlqAgACj9wCAAVyigA== Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 22:17:27 +0000 Message-ID: <2FBE6ED0-0C27-4EC8-8D94-F4C3C29F872D@cisco.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BC27452@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <0D0D949F-A7B1-4B27-A45E-2C799927CC14@cisco.com> <1477504758174.60572@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDF4C41@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7282fd52-ddb3-4715-acf7-78911c7b063d@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BDF5D56@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <92836402-973C-460E-9AF6-905F399F491B@cisco.com> <1C782CB8-B5D0-4443-9B6B-443D0429C916@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE1E43C@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE1E43C@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.20.182.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2FBE6ED00C274EC88D94F4C3C29F872Dciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Suhas Nandakumar \(snandaku\)" Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-15.txt X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list 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bfcpbis@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org, "mmusic@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 01:14:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FCD11268-A7C3-4EED-8FFB-B12215DC4799 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Adding bfcpbis. You raise a good point Roman - there=E2=80=99s no definition of how to = actually use ICE with BFCP at the protocol level - this only came up in = some very late reviews of 4582bis. The initial suggestion was to use the = same text as in draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-19, but it then raised the = point that, given BFCP does not have a MTI protocol, if the offerer = supported both they would include their preferred option, but if the = receiver supported the other variant, there=E2=80=99s no way to = immediately negotiate that without a re-INVITE. Christer=E2=80=99s suggestion to relax the requirement that the m-line = protocol in the answer matches one of the ICE candidates would support = the case where the offerer supports both but prefers UDP, but the = answerer only supports TCP. Although no implementations currently do ICE = here, this relaxation would leave the door open to gaining this = negotiation flexibility in bfcpbis implementations. There seems no = reason to have this requirement applied to the answer in the first = place. I don=E2=80=99t understand the comment about SBCs; today, tcp candidates = are used for media and data channels end-to-end in WebRTC, to name but = one implementation. Regards, Alan > On 17 Nov 2016, at 03:05, Roman Shpount wrote: >=20 > Adding ICE group to this message. >=20 > The approach always was that tcp candidates can potentially go only as = far as SBC and then be terminated by UDP transport. Because of this = everything transmitted over tcp candidate was still considered to be = transmitted over the unreliable out-of-order transport. It is also = assumed that candidates can switch from UDP to TCP based candidate = during nomination. This is why, for instance, we run DTLS with RFC4571 = framing over tcp candidates, not TLS. Because of this I always thought = that ICE is UDP first with additional TCP transports for situation when = UDP will not work. So, as a result, I think ICE-bis should specify that = UDP MUST be supported and default candidate MUST be UDP. ICE SDP can = reflect this, but I think this is the underlying protocol requirement. >=20 > I also wanted to add that BFCP needs to examine how ICE support is = implemented by this protocol. I think it is not covered in the current = drafts. I also think I do not think it is possible for TCP/BFCP to run = over ICE. On the other hand UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP would = trivial based on current DTLS work. >=20 > Regards, > _____________ > Roman Shpount >=20 > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Christer Holmberg = > = wrote: > I have no problem with Roman=E2=80=99s must-support-UDP suggestion. I = guess the question is whether the BFCP folks could accept that. Cullen = did say that TCP-based BFCP deployments have been around for a decade. = But, do they support ICE? >=20 > =20 >=20 > If we decide to move forward with such approach, we need to ask = ourselves whether must-support-UDP should be an ICE requirement (in = which case the suggestion should be brought to the ICE WG) or whether it = should only be an ICE-using-SIP-SDP requirement. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > =20 >=20 > Christer >=20 > =C2=A0 <> > From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount > Sent: 17 November 2016 00:52 > To: mmusic@ietf.org > Subject: [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE >=20 > =20 >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I just wanted to return to the m=3D line protocol issue that Christer = raised during the last MMUSIC session. >=20 > =20 >=20 > All the ICE implementations I've seen are primarily UDP based with = support for tcp host candidates which are primarily used to connect to = end points on public IP. If all ICE implementations are continue to be = primarily UDP based, then the simplest solution would be to require UDP = support when any given protocol is implemented over ICE. DTLS and RTP = are already primarily UDP based so this is a non-requirement. Even more, = all protocols that are implemented on top of ICE must assume that = underling transports (including tcp candidates) are unreliable, since = candidate pair can change at any time between reliable and unreliable = transports, so this makes them different from protocols implemented on = plain TCP or TLS. >=20 > =20 >=20 > So the first question I wanted to ask is anybody interested in TCP = only ICE implementation where the protocol running on top of such = implementation relies on the reliable delivery of underlying messages? = By this I mean, does anybody wants implement TCP based ICE, with = simultaneous open, reflexive and relay candidates in such a way that ICE = implementation will run from behind NAT without ever needing a UDP = candidate? >=20 > =20 >=20 > I understand that BFCP was used for a long time, but I do not think = TCP/BFCP or TCP/TLS/BFCP can even be used with ICE. I think only = UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP can even support ICE.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > I think both rfc4582bis and rfc4583bis need a careful review and = additional sections that describe ICE considerations. I think the most = obvious thing would be to specify that ICE can only be supported by = UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP. It will also mean in which = case RFC4571 is used when tcp candidates are used. Furthermore, when tcp = candidate is selected with UDP/BFCP transport, it is not the same thing = as using TCP/BFCP and will need a different transport tag (something = like TCP/UDP/BFCP). Alternatively we can require that only secure = versions of BFCP are used with ICE and only allow ICE usage for = UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP. >=20 > =20 >=20 > To conclude, I would argue that the simplest solution would be that = for all protocols implemented on top of ICE, UDP MUST be supported and = default candidates MUST be UDP based. This avoids building uncomfortable = artificial constructs to avoid ICE mismatch and requires minimal changes = to existing specifications. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > _____________ > Roman Shpount >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic --Apple-Mail=_FCD11268-A7C3-4EED-8FFB-B12215DC4799 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Adding bfcpbis.

You raise a good point Roman - there=E2=80=99s no definition = of how to actually use ICE with BFCP at the protocol level - this only = came up in some very late reviews of 4582bis. The initial suggestion was = to use the same text as in draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-19, but it = then raised the point that, given BFCP does not have a MTI protocol, if = the offerer supported both they would include their preferred option, = but if the receiver supported the other variant, there=E2=80=99s no way = to immediately negotiate that without a re-INVITE.

Christer=E2=80=99s = suggestion to relax the requirement that the m-line protocol in the answer matches one of the ICE candidates = would support the case where the offerer supports both but prefers UDP, = but the answerer only supports TCP. Although no implementations = currently do ICE here, this relaxation would leave the door open to = gaining this negotiation flexibility in bfcpbis implementations. There = seems no reason to have this requirement applied to the answer in the = first place.

I = don=E2=80=99t understand the comment about SBCs; today, tcp candidates = are used for media and data channels end-to-end in WebRTC, to name but = one implementation.

Regards,
Alan

On 17 Nov 2016, at 03:05, Roman Shpount = <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

Adding ICE group to this message.

The approach always was that tcp = candidates can potentially go only as far as SBC and then be terminated = by UDP transport. Because of this everything transmitted over tcp = candidate was still considered to be transmitted over the unreliable = out-of-order transport. It is also assumed that candidates can switch = from UDP to TCP based candidate during nomination. This is why, for = instance, we run DTLS with RFC4571 framing over tcp candidates, not TLS. = Because of this I always thought that ICE is UDP first with additional = TCP transports for situation when UDP will not work. So, as a result, I = think ICE-bis should specify that UDP MUST be supported and default = candidate MUST be UDP. ICE SDP can reflect this, but I think this is the = underlying protocol requirement.

I also wanted to add that BFCP needs to examine how ICE = support is implemented by this protocol. I think it is not covered in = the current drafts. I also think I do not think it is possible for = TCP/BFCP to run over ICE. On the other hand UDP/DTLS/BFCP and = TCP/DTLS/BFCP would trivial based on current DTLS work.

Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpount

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:44 = PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

I have no problem with Roman=E2=80=99s must-support-UDP = suggestion. I guess the question is whether the BFCP folks could accept = that. Cullen did say that TCP-based BFCP deployments have been around for a decade. = But, do they support ICE?

 

If we decide to move forward with such approach, we need = to ask ourselves whether must-support-UDP should be an ICE requirement = (in which case the suggestion should be brought to the ICE WG) or whether = it should only be an ICE-using-SIP-SDP requirement.

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

From: = mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount
Sent: 17 November 2016 00:52
To: mmusic@ietf.org
Subject: [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE

 

Hi All,

 

I just wanted to return to the m=3D= line protocol issue that Christer raised during the last MMUSIC = session.

 

All the ICE implementations I've = seen are primarily UDP based with support for tcp host candidates which = are primarily used to connect to end points on public IP. If all ICE = implementations are continue to be primarily UDP based, then the simplest solution would be to require UDP support when any given = protocol is implemented over ICE. DTLS and RTP are already primarily UDP = based so this is a non-requirement. Even more, all protocols that are = implemented on top of ICE must assume that underling transports (including tcp candidates) are unreliable, since candidate = pair can change at any time between reliable and unreliable transports, = so this makes them different from protocols implemented on plain TCP or = TLS.

 

So the first question I wanted to = ask is anybody interested in TCP only ICE implementation where the = protocol running on top of such implementation relies on the reliable = delivery of underlying messages? By this I mean, does anybody wants implement TCP based ICE, with simultaneous open, reflexive and relay = candidates in such a way that ICE implementation will run from behind = NAT without ever needing a UDP candidate?

 

I understand that BFCP was used = for a long time, but I do not think TCP/BFCP or TCP/TLS/BFCP can even be = used with ICE. I think only UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP = can even support ICE. 

 

I think both rfc4582bis and = rfc4583bis need a careful review and additional sections that describe = ICE considerations. I think the most obvious thing would be to specify = that ICE can only be supported by UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and = TCP/DTLS/BFCP. It will also mean in which case RFC4571 is used when tcp candidates are = used. Furthermore, when tcp candidate is selected with UDP/BFCP = transport, it is not the same thing as using TCP/BFCP and will need a = different transport tag (something like TCP/UDP/BFCP). Alternatively we can require that only secure versions of BFCP are used = with ICE and only allow ICE usage for UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP.

 

To conclude, I would argue that = the simplest solution would be that for all protocols implemented on top = of ICE, UDP MUST be supported and default candidates MUST be UDP based. = This avoids building uncomfortable artificial constructs to avoid ICE mismatch and requires minimal changes to existing = specifications.

 

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount


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= --Apple-Mail=_FCD11268-A7C3-4EED-8FFB-B12215DC4799-- From nobody Thu Nov 17 18:13:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2975129552 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8hbr9PEMJv0 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CB7D1295F3 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id q130so246722185qke.1 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dV/qmnlO2+OPkoqFfjqH+Gal6URXXR+yGtlOYbLAltA=; b=Usuij8RpHaq3fAexrFlQZVicD7csoHPSd8Sl+L5Gmf2LvT9RPmyUCpuQfHIaPnqXcq 459dV1iRqeyenY0K3vdoGIwe9MPQR2vfAJ3SsJNP/DExs+X9SPPOnkw9N3zclJoFZBaE VkpVbPKso2wbgigC9DmGDeUPlcKenexaJh806aOKp9swNyvoPGUGovo6lTaS/qoh4Z6r kdbZ3Cf72koqF5HUC8ngEhaI2cuIslN9vFrU5/ZUPFlvYhCew92LriXYc5XVkX6lBYjN cnISgSU7f1eQSHOdNcEJOVFRQT1hvcHifk/eRCCXGv/zLfUwzWh7qkzGPldYs9AuxnPL fyuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dV/qmnlO2+OPkoqFfjqH+Gal6URXXR+yGtlOYbLAltA=; b=RVTFQpbxfdDxYr6ery/yNhFieJ0R8+G9TJOlXnHgk4CWCXU01vurf+OQHfzkve38Cf GMeZQlk6yMzwcJHy1US1Fc8tyvrfAVuZWXsUR0jr885ZvMeD7FNqZm5i4Lfb9T9uXoCt ftVHCDu76M6FI+iVbTssQepmjf+3AMhpKyaWk3eOOSL4LcuYdUwMgVGGK1NbMQhB9Iqx ucFRX0e48Q5zti7uTxWWLFintk1AUlOWZw+sIYrLWxUt7uDLx9akpbWI0i+AkDgl/Eia /nRmVgHSbt8Atkdyg7U0uAWc+Lv3FaBBKdaDo7WJj5XBjSswaNArR3FTiG4whIDWdivj qo2A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC03qbEQUTlb7fliIAE4MKi3wJO5VjYI3IRjFts2z70MyFa/SAyha3oJmv5Tjv09uqg== X-Received: by 10.55.41.159 with SMTP id p31mr7477348qkp.212.1479435219548; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-f171.google.com (mail-qk0-f171.google.com. [209.85.220.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p19sm2953796qte.23.2016.11.17.18.13.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-f171.google.com with SMTP id x190so246222065qkb.0; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:39 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.55.97.204 with SMTP id v195mr7461859qkb.158.1479435216426; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.135.243 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:13:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Roman Shpount Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 21:13:35 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Alan Ford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c05c7ca8b226c054189da93 Archived-At: Cc: bfcpbis@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org, "mmusic@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 02:13:44 -0000 --94eb2c05c7ca8b226c054189da93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, There are three comments I wanted to make regarding general nature of all existing protocols designed to work ICE 1. Protocols running on top of ICE assume that regardless what candidate pair is used, including tcp candidates, the underlying network transport is unordered and unreliable. During nomination, including continuous nomination, candidate pairs can switch, including switching from udp to tcp or from tcp to udp. This typically means that protocol re-transmit timers are operational, packets are re-ordered at the protocol level, and UDP-friendly packet sizes are used even when packets are sent over tcp candidates. For instance DTLS and SCTP re-transmit timers, reordering, and fragmentation support are still running when tcp candidates are used. 2. Protocols do not assume that particular candidate network transport runs all the way from origination to final destination of the protocol packets. For instance there are SBC which only handle ICE. These SBC run the ICE state machine and then transmit the underlying protocol data to the final destination using public IP. Because of this, it is not unusual for RTP to run over tcp candidate until SBC and then run over UDP to the final destination. This is one more reason why re-transmit timers and other mechanisms used to deal with UDP are still running over tcp candidates. 3. I am not aware of any current protocol running over ICE tcp candidates which is not using RFC4571 framing. For instance DTLS could have been implemented using DTLS protocol framing without RFC4571 over tcp candidates, but this was not the case. This is partially done to simplify implementation of SBC which terminate ICE and transmit protocol data using UDP. By using RFC 4571 framing, SBC can packetize/de-packetize data transmitted over tcp candidates without knowing protocol details. To conclude, up until this point ICE tcp candidates were not treated as reliable transport and served simply as another way to transmit UDP packets through firewalls. Because of this, I would argue that BFCP running over tcp candidate is not the same as TCP/BFCP, in the same way as DTLS running over tcp candidate is not TLS. I would also argue that any protocol running over ICE is, in essence, a UDP based protocol, using tcp candidates only as a fall back mechanism for firewall traversal, same way as when data is relayed over TURN TCP, it is still considered sent over UDP at the protocol level. If ICE group agrees, I think this should be documented by saying that UDP is a MUST implement for any protocol using ICE and that default candidate should be UDP based. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Alan Ford wrote: > Adding bfcpbis. > > You raise a good point Roman - there=E2=80=99s no definition of how to ac= tually > use ICE with BFCP at the protocol level - this only came up in some very > late reviews of 4582bis. The initial suggestion was to use the same text = as > in draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-19, but it then raised the point that, > given BFCP does not have a MTI protocol, if the offerer supported both th= ey > would include their preferred option, but if the receiver supported the > other variant, there=E2=80=99s no way to immediately negotiate that witho= ut a > re-INVITE. > > Christer=E2=80=99s suggestion to relax the requirement that the m-line pr= otocol *in > the answer* matches one of the ICE candidates would support the case > where the offerer supports both but prefers UDP, but the answerer only > supports TCP. Although no implementations currently do ICE here, this > relaxation would leave the door open to gaining this negotiation > flexibility in bfcpbis implementations. There seems no reason to have thi= s > requirement applied to the answer in the first place. > > I don=E2=80=99t understand the comment about SBCs; today, tcp candidates = are used > for media and data channels end-to-end in WebRTC, to name but one > implementation. > > Regards, > Alan > > On 17 Nov 2016, at 03:05, Roman Shpount wrote: > > Adding ICE group to this message. > > The approach always was that tcp candidates can potentially go only as fa= r > as SBC and then be terminated by UDP transport. Because of this everythin= g > transmitted over tcp candidate was still considered to be transmitted ove= r > the unreliable out-of-order transport. It is also assumed that candidates > can switch from UDP to TCP based candidate during nomination. This is why= , > for instance, we run DTLS with RFC4571 framing over tcp candidates, not > TLS. Because of this I always thought that ICE is UDP first with addition= al > TCP transports for situation when UDP will not work. So, as a result, I > think ICE-bis should specify that UDP MUST be supported and default > candidate MUST be UDP. ICE SDP can reflect this, but I think this is the > underlying protocol requirement. > > I also wanted to add that BFCP needs to examine how ICE support is > implemented by this protocol. I think it is not covered in the current > drafts. I also think I do not think it is possible for TCP/BFCP to run ov= er > ICE. On the other hand UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP would trivial base= d > on current DTLS work. > > Regards, > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> I have no problem with Roman=E2=80=99s must-support-UDP suggestion. I gu= ess the >> question is whether the BFCP folks could accept that. Cullen did say tha= t >> TCP-based BFCP deployments have been around for a decade. But, do they >> support ICE? >> >> >> >> If we decide to move forward with such approach, we need to ask ourselve= s >> whether must-support-UDP should be an ICE requirement (in which case the >> suggestion should be brought to the ICE WG) or whether it should only be= an >> ICE-using-SIP-SDP requirement. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> *From:* mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Roman >> Shpount >> *Sent:* 17 November 2016 00:52 >> *To:* mmusic@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> I just wanted to return to the m=3D line protocol issue that Christer >> raised during the last MMUSIC session. >> >> >> >> All the ICE implementations I've seen are primarily UDP based with >> support for tcp host candidates which are primarily used to connect to e= nd >> points on public IP. If all ICE implementations are continue to be >> primarily UDP based, then the simplest solution would be to require UDP >> support when any given protocol is implemented over ICE. DTLS and RTP ar= e >> already primarily UDP based so this is a non-requirement. Even more, all >> protocols that are implemented on top of ICE must assume that underling >> transports (including tcp candidates) are unreliable, since candidate pa= ir >> can change at any time between reliable and unreliable transports, so th= is >> makes them different from protocols implemented on plain TCP or TLS. >> >> >> >> So the first question I wanted to ask is anybody interested in TCP only >> ICE implementation where the protocol running on top of such implementat= ion >> relies on the reliable delivery of underlying messages? By this I mean, >> does anybody wants implement TCP based ICE, with simultaneous open, >> reflexive and relay candidates in such a way that ICE implementation wil= l >> run from behind NAT without ever needing a UDP candidate? >> >> >> >> I understand that BFCP was used for a long time, but I do not think >> TCP/BFCP or TCP/TLS/BFCP can even be used with ICE. I think only UDP/BFC= P, >> UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP can even support ICE. >> >> >> >> I think both rfc4582bis and rfc4583bis need a careful review and >> additional sections that describe ICE considerations. I think the most >> obvious thing would be to specify that ICE can only be supported by >> UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP. It will also mean in which ca= se >> RFC4571 is used when tcp candidates are used. Furthermore, when tcp >> candidate is selected with UDP/BFCP transport, it is not the same thing = as >> using TCP/BFCP and will need a different transport tag (something like >> TCP/UDP/BFCP). Alternatively we can require that only secure versions of >> BFCP are used with ICE and only allow ICE usage for UDP/DTLS/BFCP and >> TCP/DTLS/BFCP. >> >> >> >> To conclude, I would argue that the simplest solution would be that for >> all protocols implemented on top of ICE, UDP MUST be supported and defau= lt >> candidates MUST be UDP based. This avoids building uncomfortable artific= ial >> constructs to avoid ICE mismatch and requires minimal changes to existin= g >> specifications. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> _____________ >> Roman Shpount >> > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > --94eb2c05c7ca8b226c054189da93 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,

There are three comments = I wanted to make regarding general nature of all existing protocols designe= d to work ICE

1. Protocols running on top of ICE assume = that regardless what candidate pair is used, including tcp candidates, the = underlying network transport is unordered and unreliable. During nomination= , including continuous nomination, candidate pairs can switch, including sw= itching from udp to tcp or from tcp to udp. This typically means that proto= col re-transmit timers are operational, packets are re-ordered at the proto= col level, and =C2=A0UDP-friendly packet sizes are used even when packets a= re sent over tcp candidates. For instance DTLS and SCTP re-transmit timers,= reordering, and fragmentation support are still running when tcp candidate= s are used.

2. Protocols do not assume that partic= ular candidate network transport runs all the way from origination to final= destination of the protocol packets. For instance there are SBC which only= handle ICE. These SBC run the ICE state machine and then transmit the unde= rlying protocol data to the final destination using public IP. Because of t= his, it is not unusual for RTP to run over tcp candidate until SBC and then= run over UDP to the final destination. This is one more reason why re-tran= smit timers and other mechanisms used to deal with UDP are still running ov= er tcp candidates.

3. I am not aware of any curren= t protocol running over ICE tcp candidates which is not using RFC4571 frami= ng. For instance DTLS could have been implemented using DTLS protocol frami= ng without RFC4571 over tcp candidates, but this was not the case. This is = partially done to simplify implementation of SBC which terminate ICE and tr= ansmit protocol data using UDP. By using RFC 4571 framing, SBC can packetiz= e/de-packetize data transmitted over tcp candidates without knowing protoco= l details.

To conclude, up until this point ICE tc= p candidates were not treated as reliable transport and served simply as an= other way to transmit UDP packets through firewalls. Because of this, I wou= ld argue that BFCP running over tcp candidate is not the same as TCP/BFCP, = in the same way as DTLS running over tcp candidate is not TLS.
I would also argue that any protocol running over ICE is, in e= ssence, a UDP based protocol, using tcp candidates only as a fall back mech= anism for firewall traversal, same way as when data is relayed over TURN TC= P, it is still considered sent over UDP at the protocol level.
If ICE group agrees, I think this should be documented by sayi= ng that UDP is a MUST implement for any protocol using ICE and that default= candidate should be UDP based.

Regards,
_____________
Roman= Shpount

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Alan Ford <= span dir=3D"ltr"><alan.ford@gmail.com> wrote:
Adding bfcpbis.<= div>
You raise a good point Roman - there=E2=80=99s no defini= tion of how to actually use ICE with BFCP at the protocol level - this only= came up in some very late reviews of 4582bis. The initial suggestion was t= o use the same text as in=C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-19, but it t= hen raised the point that, given BFCP does not have a MTI protocol, if the = offerer supported both they would include their preferred option, but if th= e receiver supported the other variant, there=E2=80=99s no way to immediate= ly negotiate that without a re-INVITE.

Christer=E2= =80=99s suggestion to relax the requirement that the m-line protocol in = the answer=C2=A0matches one of the ICE candidates would support the cas= e where the offerer supports both but prefers UDP, but the answerer only su= pports TCP. Although no implementations currently do ICE here, this relaxat= ion would leave the door open to gaining this negotiation flexibility in bf= cpbis implementations. There seems no reason to have this requirement appli= ed to the answer in the first place.

I don=E2=80= =99t understand the comment about SBCs; today, tcp candidates are used for = media and data channels end-to-end in WebRTC, to name but one implementatio= n.

Regards,
Alan

On 17 No= v 2016, at 03:05, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

Adding ICE group to this message.

The approach always was that tcp candidates can potential= ly go only as far as SBC and then be terminated by UDP transport. Because o= f this everything transmitted over tcp candidate was still considered to be= transmitted over the unreliable out-of-order transport. It is also assumed= that candidates can switch from UDP to TCP based candidate during nominati= on. This is why, for instance, we run DTLS with RFC4571 framing over tcp ca= ndidates, not TLS. Because of this I always thought that ICE is UDP first w= ith additional TCP transports for situation when UDP will not work. So, as = a result, I think ICE-bis should specify that UDP MUST be supported and def= ault candidate MUST be UDP. ICE SDP can reflect this, but I think this is t= he underlying protocol requirement.

I also wanted to add= that BFCP needs to examine how ICE support is implemented by this protocol= . I think it is not covered in the current drafts. I also think I do not th= ink it is possible for TCP/BFCP to=C2=A0run over ICE. On the other hand UDP= /DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP would trivial based on current DTLS work.
<= div>

Regards= ,
_____________
Roman Shpount

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Christer Ho= lmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wr= ote:

I have no problem with Roman=E2=80=99= s must-support-UDP suggestion. I guess the question is whether the BFCP fol= ks could accept that. Cullen did say that TCP-based BFCP deployments have been around for a decade. But= , do they support ICE?

= =C2=A0

If we decide to move= forward with such approach, we need to ask ourselves whether must-support-= UDP should be an ICE requirement (in which case the suggestion should be brought to the ICE WG) or whether it s= hould only be an ICE-using-SIP-SDP requirement.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

= =C2=A0

From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount
Sent: 17 November 2016 00:52
To: mmusic@ietf= .org
Subject: [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE

=C2=A0

Hi All,

=C2=A0

I just wanted to return to the m=3D line protoc= ol issue that Christer raised during the last MMUSIC session.=

=C2=A0

All the ICE implementations I've seen are p= rimarily UDP based with support for tcp host candidates which are primarily= used to connect to end points on public IP. If all ICE implementations are= continue to be primarily UDP based, then the simplest solution would be to require UDP support when any given protocol = is implemented over ICE. DTLS and RTP are already primarily UDP based so th= is is a non-requirement. Even more, all protocols that are implemented on t= op of ICE must assume that underling transports (including tcp candidates) are unreliable, since candidate pair= can change at any time between reliable and unreliable transports, so this= makes them different from protocols implemented on plain TCP or TLS.

=C2=A0

So the first question I wanted to ask is anybod= y interested in TCP only ICE implementation where the protocol running on t= op of such implementation relies on the reliable delivery of underlying mes= sages? By this I mean, does anybody wants implement TCP based ICE, with simultaneous open, reflexive and relay candi= dates in such a way that ICE implementation will run from behind NAT withou= t ever needing a UDP candidate?

=C2=A0

I understand that BFCP was used for a long time= , but I do not think TCP/BFCP or TCP/TLS/BFCP can even be used with ICE. I = think only UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP can even support ICE.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think both=C2=A0rfc4582bis and rfc4583bis nee= d a careful review and additional sections that describe ICE considerations= . I think the most obvious thing would be to specify that ICE can only be s= upported by UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP. It will also mean in which case RFC4571 is used when tcp candidates are us= ed. Furthermore, when tcp candidate is selected with UDP/BFCP transport, it= is not the same thing as using TCP/BFCP and will need a different transpor= t tag (something like TCP/UDP/BFCP). Alternatively we can require that only secure versions of BFCP are used wi= th ICE and only allow ICE usage for UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP.=

=C2=A0

To conclude, I would argue that the simplest so= lution would be that for all protocols implemented on top of ICE, UDP MUST = be supported and default candidates MUST be UDP based. This avoids building= uncomfortable artificial constructs to avoid ICE mismatch and requires minimal changes to existing specifications= .

=C2=A0

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount


_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list=
mmusic@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
=


--94eb2c05c7ca8b226c054189da93-- From nobody Sat Nov 19 01:30:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD0712953C for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:30:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R7kaQ-hSZy17 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 603BE1294C7 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:30:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-48ecb98000000994-ce-58301bb02ca4 Received: from ESESSHC024.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.90]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F5.51.02452.0BB10385; Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:30:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.16]) by ESESSHC024.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:30:24 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Do we want to mandate all protocols supporting ICE and multiple transports to support transport switch on-the-fly before nomination? Thread-Index: AdJCRurmAgGp6u03Tl6w25hg1S1vSQAAF5zw Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:30:23 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE742CE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE742CE@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrCIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7lO4GaYMIgyMrtC3+rTvK5MDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujGPnjjMWXLGvuNL5jbmB8YB5FyMnh4SAicTN07tZuxi5OIQE 1jFKrN9whg0kISSwmFHi5X2nLkYODjYBC4nuf9ogYREBTYnN2+8ygdQLC0xmlHj9dQUbiCMi MIVR4sydNSwQVUYSG6Y8BbNZBFQl3m+ayAxi8wr4Siy5expqga/EjyXNjCA2p4CfxL1DB8Hq GQXEJL6fWsMEYjMLiEvcejKfCeJSEYmHFyF6JQREJV4+/scKYStJLLr9Gao+U2LlydfsELsE JU7OfMIygVF4FpJRs5CUzUJSBhHPlzi1/xwzhK0jsWD3JzYIW1ti2cLXzDD2mQOPmTDFdSWO nD/GDmErSrRtbwbq5QKyVzBK3NjZD9VgLbFg2nJWmKIp3Q/ZFzDyrmIULU4tLs5NNzLWSy3K TC4uzs/Ty0st2cQIjN+DW37r7mBc/drxEKMAB6MSD2+BuH6EEGtiWXFl7iFGFaA5jzasvsAo xZKXn5eqJMIrIWkQIcSbklhZlVqUH19UmpNafIhRmoNFSZzXbOX9cCGB9MSS1OzU1ILUIpgs EwenVAPjBv7TkrWyjMF3tcUeXX3FZuosdVC+S/E91/bbnOHPFV+JXwlprO2ViNm7zKhgo+3d Ti02Ua+T1ksN55n2lHmJiVxfmMO1S/tYcxF/sHXhhhiDJ7F5EduXHtk058XLjK/L9Na7P3lu 7PDcXdhT9qrXypMp71e4npdJT3p1kYFNrW7KWyZevmtKLMUZiYZazEXFiQCbCmU35wIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] FW: Do we want to mandate all protocols supporting ICE and multiple transports to support transport switch on-the-fly before nomination? X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:30:28 -0000 --_004_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311ESESSMB209erics_" --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Forwarding to bfcpbis, as this is very much related to BFCP. If you have co= mments, please bring those to the ICE WG list, so we get everything in one = place :) Regards, Christer From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg Sent: 19 November 2016 11:27 To: ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] Do we want to mandate all protocols supporting ICE and multi= ple transports to support transport switch on-the-fly before nomination? Hi, One potential issue that came to my mind while reading the SDP m- line thre= ad. Previously, before removal of aggressive nomination, while and endpoint mig= ht support both UDP and TCP for a protocol, it didn't have to be able to si= multaneously use the protocol with both UDP and TCP, and switching between.= Because, until nomination was done, no protocol data was sent. And, once n= omination had been done, endpoints used the protocol with the selected tran= sport. Now, with the allowed-to-send-media-before-nomination rules, protocols basi= cally have to support switch of transport (from UDP to TCP, and vice versa)= , until the nomination takes place. Now, even people always say that a good designed protocol should be transpo= rt-independent, isn't *mandating* transport switching on-the-fly (before no= mination takes place) by all protocols supporting ICE and multiple transpor= ts a bad thing to do? Perhaps the ICE considerations of each protocol (RTP, BFCP etc) should indi= cate whether transport switching is supported, and whether there are protoc= ol specific procedures associated with that. I guess a protocol could also = specify that data shouldn't be sent in the first place before nomination ha= s been done, if there are good reasons for that. Regards, Christer --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Forwarding to bfcpbis,= as this is very much related to BFCP. If you have comments, please bring t= hose to the ICE WG list, so we get everything in one place :)

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 19 November 2016 11:27
To: ice@ietf.org
Subject: [Ice] Do we want to mandate all protocols supporting ICE an= d multiple transports to support transport switch on-the-fly before nominat= ion?

 

Hi,

 

One potential issue that came to my mind while readi= ng the SDP m- line thread.

 

Previously, before removal of aggressive nomination,= while and endpoint might support both UDP and TCP for a protocol, it didn&= #8217;t have to be able to simultaneously use the protocol with both UDP an= d TCP, and switching between. Because, until nomination was done, no protocol data was sent. And, once nomination had b= een done, endpoints used the protocol with the selected transport.

 

Now, with the allowed-to-send-media-before-nominatio= n rules, protocols basically have to support switch of transport (from UDP = to TCP, and vice versa), until the nomination takes place.

 

Now, even people always say that a good designed pro= tocol should be transport-independent, isn’t *mandating* trans= port switching on-the-fly (before nomination takes place) by all protocols = supporting ICE and multiple transports a bad thing to do?

 

Perhaps the ICE considerations of each protocol (RTP= , BFCP etc) should indicate whether transport switching is supported, and w= hether there are protocol specific procedures associated with that. I guess= a protocol could also specify that data shouldn’t be sent in the first place before nomination has been= done, if there are good reasons for that.

 

Regards,

 

Christer

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311ESESSMB209erics_-- --_004_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; name="ATT00001.txt" Content-Description: ATT00001.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT00001.txt"; size=124; creation-date="Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:27:25 GMT"; modification-date="Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:27:25 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkljZSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCkljZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9pY2UNCg== --_004_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE75311ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Sun Nov 20 15:23:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7037212953B for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xYhuIXFwX9bO for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x231.google.com (mail-qt0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CC3812949F for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x231.google.com with SMTP id w33so194087274qtc.3 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wWcatBvKhIDZCpN21sL7YRhc3RG13DReFcX3xrwFiAI=; b=tCQEhtfMuYUKywY7srOZLM8mUqrKO4JEpQdz0bS0CH9suMh3mshnyeVkct6upTbYeK 5GndiKzPgFrX2ehrq3MBTLkCqW25pNNRykSLnlY0AJYdHu1VIXs+RhfAmL5ZpO9ERH8Q 3xZ5xnwZ2XPieCI4iz4OvXj9hI4HVMhrHS+NPY0N7ETrW05bBBhMvcOkdHSjEFc9QCxL 3a22SFxnRG1apJLwuCEL6MQvOLpqysWCZmuH2zV6EJDCDmY7t8TLDAqBpRTUpBGrW7K7 bsqntv7CHsv+RPqw6PWKbwI62QJfDXp/Vltb0Nze8nECFjInyOlJZ6abwMzDOFU5kqoV Uk1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wWcatBvKhIDZCpN21sL7YRhc3RG13DReFcX3xrwFiAI=; b=kLce+ZGUlXxIq06PMeGOBITx1kJsia+B/4b3QwQ9bQfSh/BrqhoKgOdd/JVXUnDU4c brOTIuEmWGetrysJXdsoIdbeJI6531pcTCdevRXlPq3CbnAohTOSBdy1iFKapyvFOe9g IyKzY9ZarJWa0b51ncKv1C0zJVFxYI/6hqLYpUWlsI5L1selYz5hJH1MyALtTo7B1vbB mxEpIdAkrMgScBSBYJDE7vKnyySXjiUlz/aJZixLI5jA+ZUtwj8+pyIZXZNff0Lntm4u nwHnMwg26oz5Jbi7jyWUtAKjMc4nACwLaSV1NNEU2+j3YJnzepXEpahcIKsWP4dqR328 YRbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC03BAijoeSn3fYRfN2cgIgJuUVdPesCwf5ZbecUCtZ+5UPInPOVCEpkjpZugwThQWQ== X-Received: by 10.237.62.110 with SMTP id m43mr6469104qtf.195.1479684208153; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-f173.google.com (mail-qt0-f173.google.com. [209.85.216.173]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f7sm7242223qtf.48.2016.11.20.15.23.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-f173.google.com with SMTP id c47so194303471qtc.2; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:27 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.200.37.101 with SMTP id 34mr6254612qtn.273.1479684207450; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.135.243 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:23:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Roman Shpount Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 18:23:26 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Alan Ford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11404b3290a43e0541c3d344 Archived-At: Cc: bfcpbis@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org, "mmusic@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 23:23:34 -0000 --001a11404b3290a43e0541c3d344 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I just wanted to add to my previous email, that according to RFC 6544 protocols running over tcp candidates MUST use RFC 4571 framing ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6544#section-10.1). This means that BFCP running over tcp candidate is not TCP/BFCP and will require a different transport tag. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: > Hi All, > > There are three comments I wanted to make regarding general nature of all > existing protocols designed to work ICE > > 1. Protocols running on top of ICE assume that regardless what candidate > pair is used, including tcp candidates, the underlying network transport = is > unordered and unreliable. During nomination, including continuous > nomination, candidate pairs can switch, including switching from udp to t= cp > or from tcp to udp. This typically means that protocol re-transmit timers > are operational, packets are re-ordered at the protocol level, and > UDP-friendly packet sizes are used even when packets are sent over tcp > candidates. For instance DTLS and SCTP re-transmit timers, reordering, an= d > fragmentation support are still running when tcp candidates are used. > > 2. Protocols do not assume that particular candidate network transport > runs all the way from origination to final destination of the protocol > packets. For instance there are SBC which only handle ICE. These SBC run > the ICE state machine and then transmit the underlying protocol data to t= he > final destination using public IP. Because of this, it is not unusual for > RTP to run over tcp candidate until SBC and then run over UDP to the fina= l > destination. This is one more reason why re-transmit timers and other > mechanisms used to deal with UDP are still running over tcp candidates. > > 3. I am not aware of any current protocol running over ICE tcp candidates > which is not using RFC4571 framing. For instance DTLS could have been > implemented using DTLS protocol framing without RFC4571 over tcp > candidates, but this was not the case. This is partially done to simplify > implementation of SBC which terminate ICE and transmit protocol data usin= g > UDP. By using RFC 4571 framing, SBC can packetize/de-packetize data > transmitted over tcp candidates without knowing protocol details. > > To conclude, up until this point ICE tcp candidates were not treated as > reliable transport and served simply as another way to transmit UDP packe= ts > through firewalls. Because of this, I would argue that BFCP running over > tcp candidate is not the same as TCP/BFCP, in the same way as DTLS runnin= g > over tcp candidate is not TLS. > > I would also argue that any protocol running over ICE is, in essence, a > UDP based protocol, using tcp candidates only as a fall back mechanism fo= r > firewall traversal, same way as when data is relayed over TURN TCP, it is > still considered sent over UDP at the protocol level. > > If ICE group agrees, I think this should be documented by saying that UDP > is a MUST implement for any protocol using ICE and that default candidate > should be UDP based. > > Regards, > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Alan Ford wrote: > >> Adding bfcpbis. >> >> You raise a good point Roman - there=E2=80=99s no definition of how to a= ctually >> use ICE with BFCP at the protocol level - this only came up in some very >> late reviews of 4582bis. The initial suggestion was to use the same text= as >> in draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-19, but it then raised the point that, >> given BFCP does not have a MTI protocol, if the offerer supported both t= hey >> would include their preferred option, but if the receiver supported the >> other variant, there=E2=80=99s no way to immediately negotiate that with= out a >> re-INVITE. >> >> Christer=E2=80=99s suggestion to relax the requirement that the m-line p= rotocol *in >> the answer* matches one of the ICE candidates would support the case >> where the offerer supports both but prefers UDP, but the answerer only >> supports TCP. Although no implementations currently do ICE here, this >> relaxation would leave the door open to gaining this negotiation >> flexibility in bfcpbis implementations. There seems no reason to have th= is >> requirement applied to the answer in the first place. >> >> I don=E2=80=99t understand the comment about SBCs; today, tcp candidates= are used >> for media and data channels end-to-end in WebRTC, to name but one >> implementation. >> >> Regards, >> Alan >> >> On 17 Nov 2016, at 03:05, Roman Shpount wrote: >> >> Adding ICE group to this message. >> >> The approach always was that tcp candidates can potentially go only as >> far as SBC and then be terminated by UDP transport. Because of this >> everything transmitted over tcp candidate was still considered to be >> transmitted over the unreliable out-of-order transport. It is also assum= ed >> that candidates can switch from UDP to TCP based candidate during >> nomination. This is why, for instance, we run DTLS with RFC4571 framing >> over tcp candidates, not TLS. Because of this I always thought that ICE = is >> UDP first with additional TCP transports for situation when UDP will not >> work. So, as a result, I think ICE-bis should specify that UDP MUST be >> supported and default candidate MUST be UDP. ICE SDP can reflect this, b= ut >> I think this is the underlying protocol requirement. >> >> I also wanted to add that BFCP needs to examine how ICE support is >> implemented by this protocol. I think it is not covered in the current >> drafts. I also think I do not think it is possible for TCP/BFCP to run o= ver >> ICE. On the other hand UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP would trivial bas= ed >> on current DTLS work. >> >> Regards, >> _____________ >> Roman Shpount >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Christer Holmberg < >> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: >> >>> I have no problem with Roman=E2=80=99s must-support-UDP suggestion. I g= uess the >>> question is whether the BFCP folks could accept that. Cullen did say th= at >>> TCP-based BFCP deployments have been around for a decade. But, do they >>> support ICE? >>> >>> >>> >>> If we decide to move forward with such approach, we need to ask >>> ourselves whether must-support-UDP should be an ICE requirement (in whi= ch >>> case the suggestion should be brought to the ICE WG) or whether it shou= ld >>> only be an ICE-using-SIP-SDP requirement. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Roman >>> Shpount >>> *Sent:* 17 November 2016 00:52 >>> *To:* mmusic@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I just wanted to return to the m=3D line protocol issue that Christer >>> raised during the last MMUSIC session. >>> >>> >>> >>> All the ICE implementations I've seen are primarily UDP based with >>> support for tcp host candidates which are primarily used to connect to = end >>> points on public IP. If all ICE implementations are continue to be >>> primarily UDP based, then the simplest solution would be to require UDP >>> support when any given protocol is implemented over ICE. DTLS and RTP a= re >>> already primarily UDP based so this is a non-requirement. Even more, al= l >>> protocols that are implemented on top of ICE must assume that underling >>> transports (including tcp candidates) are unreliable, since candidate p= air >>> can change at any time between reliable and unreliable transports, so t= his >>> makes them different from protocols implemented on plain TCP or TLS. >>> >>> >>> >>> So the first question I wanted to ask is anybody interested in TCP only >>> ICE implementation where the protocol running on top of such implementa= tion >>> relies on the reliable delivery of underlying messages? By this I mean, >>> does anybody wants implement TCP based ICE, with simultaneous open, >>> reflexive and relay candidates in such a way that ICE implementation wi= ll >>> run from behind NAT without ever needing a UDP candidate? >>> >>> >>> >>> I understand that BFCP was used for a long time, but I do not think >>> TCP/BFCP or TCP/TLS/BFCP can even be used with ICE. I think only UDP/BF= CP, >>> UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP can even support ICE. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think both rfc4582bis and rfc4583bis need a careful review and >>> additional sections that describe ICE considerations. I think the most >>> obvious thing would be to specify that ICE can only be supported by >>> UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP. It will also mean in which c= ase >>> RFC4571 is used when tcp candidates are used. Furthermore, when tcp >>> candidate is selected with UDP/BFCP transport, it is not the same thing= as >>> using TCP/BFCP and will need a different transport tag (something like >>> TCP/UDP/BFCP). Alternatively we can require that only secure versions o= f >>> BFCP are used with ICE and only allow ICE usage for UDP/DTLS/BFCP and >>> TCP/DTLS/BFCP. >>> >>> >>> >>> To conclude, I would argue that the simplest solution would be that for >>> all protocols implemented on top of ICE, UDP MUST be supported and defa= ult >>> candidates MUST be UDP based. This avoids building uncomfortable artifi= cial >>> constructs to avoid ICE mismatch and requires minimal changes to existi= ng >>> specifications. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> _____________ >>> Roman Shpount >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> >> >> > --001a11404b3290a43e0541c3d344 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,

I just wanted to add to my prev= ious email, that according to RFC 6544=C2=A0protocols running over tcp cand= idates MUST use =C2=A0RFC 4571 framing (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6544#section-10.1<= /a>). This means that BFCP running over tcp candidate is not TCP/BFCP and w= ill require a different transport tag.


_____________
Roman Sh= pount

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Roman Shpou= nt <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
Hi All,

There are three comme= nts I wanted to make regarding general nature of all existing protocols des= igned to work ICE

1. Protocols running on top of ICE ass= ume that regardless what candidate pair is used, including tcp candidates, = the underlying network transport is unordered and unreliable. During nomina= tion, including continuous nomination, candidate pairs can switch, includin= g switching from udp to tcp or from tcp to udp. This typically means that p= rotocol re-transmit timers are operational, packets are re-ordered at the p= rotocol level, and =C2=A0UDP-friendly packet sizes are used even when packe= ts are sent over tcp candidates. For instance DTLS and SCTP re-transmit tim= ers, reordering, and fragmentation support are still running when tcp candi= dates are used.

2. Protocols do not assume that pa= rticular candidate network transport runs all the way from origination to f= inal destination of the protocol packets. For instance there are SBC which = only handle ICE. These SBC run the ICE state machine and then transmit the = underlying protocol data to the final destination using public IP. Because = of this, it is not unusual for RTP to run over tcp candidate until SBC and = then run over UDP to the final destination. This is one more reason why re-= transmit timers and other mechanisms used to deal with UDP are still runnin= g over tcp candidates.

3. I am not aware of any cu= rrent protocol running over ICE tcp candidates which is not using RFC4571 f= raming. For instance DTLS could have been implemented using DTLS protocol f= raming without RFC4571 over tcp candidates, but this was not the case. This= is partially done to simplify implementation of SBC which terminate ICE an= d transmit protocol data using UDP. By using RFC 4571 framing, SBC can pack= etize/de-packetize data transmitted over tcp candidates without knowing pro= tocol details.

To conclude, up until this point IC= E tcp candidates were not treated as reliable transport and served simply a= s another way to transmit UDP packets through firewalls. Because of this, I= would argue that BFCP running over tcp candidate is not the same as TCP/BF= CP, in the same way as DTLS running over tcp candidate is not TLS.

I would also argue that any protocol running over ICE is, = in essence, a UDP based protocol, using tcp candidates only as a fall back = mechanism for firewall traversal, same way as when data is relayed over TUR= N TCP, it is still considered sent over UDP at the protocol level.

If ICE group agrees, I think this should be documented by = saying that UDP is a MUST implement for any protocol using ICE and that def= ault candidate should be UDP based.

Regards,
_____________
Roman S= hpount

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Alan Ford <= span dir=3D"ltr"><alan.ford@gmail.com> wrote:
Adding bfcpbis.<= div>
You raise a good point Roman - there=E2=80=99s no defini= tion of how to actually use ICE with BFCP at the protocol level - this only= came up in some very late reviews of 4582bis. The initial suggestion was t= o use the same text as in=C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-19, but it t= hen raised the point that, given BFCP does not have a MTI protocol, if the = offerer supported both they would include their preferred option, but if th= e receiver supported the other variant, there=E2=80=99s no way to immediate= ly negotiate that without a re-INVITE.

Christer=E2= =80=99s suggestion to relax the requirement that the m-line protocol in = the answer=C2=A0matches one of the ICE candidates would support the cas= e where the offerer supports both but prefers UDP, but the answerer only su= pports TCP. Although no implementations currently do ICE here, this relaxat= ion would leave the door open to gaining this negotiation flexibility in bf= cpbis implementations. There seems no reason to have this requirement appli= ed to the answer in the first place.

I don=E2=80= =99t understand the comment about SBCs; today, tcp candidates are used for = media and data channels end-to-end in WebRTC, to name but one implementatio= n.

Regards,
Alan

On 17 Nov 2016, at 03:05, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
Adding ICE group to this message.
<= br>
The approach always was that tcp candidates can potentially go onl= y as far as SBC and then be terminated by UDP transport. Because of this ev= erything transmitted over tcp candidate was still considered to be transmit= ted over the unreliable out-of-order transport. It is also assumed that can= didates can switch from UDP to TCP based candidate during nomination. This = is why, for instance, we run DTLS with RFC4571 framing over tcp candidates,= not TLS. Because of this I always thought that ICE is UDP first with addit= ional TCP transports for situation when UDP will not work. So, as a result,= I think ICE-bis should specify that UDP MUST be supported and default cand= idate MUST be UDP. ICE SDP can reflect this, but I think this is the underl= ying protocol requirement.

I also wanted to add that BFC= P needs to examine how ICE support is implemented by this protocol. I think= it is not covered in the current drafts. I also think I do not think it is= possible for TCP/BFCP to=C2=A0run over ICE. On the other hand UDP/DTLS/BFC= P and TCP/DTLS/BFCP would trivial based on current DTLS work.

Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpount

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Christer Ho= lmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wr= ote:

I have no probl= em with Roman=E2=80=99s must-support-UDP suggestion. I guess the question i= s whether the BFCP folks could accept that. Cullen did say that TCP-based BFCP deployments have been around for a decade. But= , do they support ICE?

= =C2=A0

If we decide to move= forward with such approach, we need to ask ourselves whether must-support-= UDP should be an ICE requirement (in which case the suggestion should be brought to the ICE WG) or whether it s= hould only be an ICE-using-SIP-SDP requirement.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

= =C2=A0

From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount
Sent: 17 November 2016 00:52
To: mmusic@ietf= .org
Subject: [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE

=C2=A0

Hi All,

=C2=A0

I just wanted to return to the m=3D line protoc= ol issue that Christer raised during the last MMUSIC session.=

=C2=A0

All the ICE implementations I've seen are p= rimarily UDP based with support for tcp host candidates which are primarily= used to connect to end points on public IP. If all ICE implementations are= continue to be primarily UDP based, then the simplest solution would be to require UDP support when any given protocol = is implemented over ICE. DTLS and RTP are already primarily UDP based so th= is is a non-requirement. Even more, all protocols that are implemented on t= op of ICE must assume that underling transports (including tcp candidates) are unreliable, since candidate pair= can change at any time between reliable and unreliable transports, so this= makes them different from protocols implemented on plain TCP or TLS.

=C2=A0

So the first question I wanted to ask is anybod= y interested in TCP only ICE implementation where the protocol running on t= op of such implementation relies on the reliable delivery of underlying mes= sages? By this I mean, does anybody wants implement TCP based ICE, with simultaneous open, reflexive and relay candi= dates in such a way that ICE implementation will run from behind NAT withou= t ever needing a UDP candidate?

=C2=A0

I understand that BFCP was used for a long time= , but I do not think TCP/BFCP or TCP/TLS/BFCP can even be used with ICE. I = think only UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP can even support ICE.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think both=C2=A0rfc4582bis and rfc4583bis nee= d a careful review and additional sections that describe ICE considerations= . I think the most obvious thing would be to specify that ICE can only be s= upported by UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP. It will also mean in which case RFC4571 is used when tcp candidates are us= ed. Furthermore, when tcp candidate is selected with UDP/BFCP transport, it= is not the same thing as using TCP/BFCP and will need a different transpor= t tag (something like TCP/UDP/BFCP). Alternatively we can require that only secure versions of BFCP are used wi= th ICE and only allow ICE usage for UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP.=

=C2=A0

To conclude, I would argue that the simplest so= lution would be that for all protocols implemented on top of ICE, UDP MUST = be supported and default candidates MUST be UDP based. This avoids building= uncomfortable artificial constructs to avoid ICE mismatch and requires minimal changes to existing specifications= .

=C2=A0

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount


_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list=
mmusic@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
=



--001a11404b3290a43e0541c3d344-- From nobody Sun Nov 20 15:28:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADFA1294A0 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:28:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aliax-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nef7xo_qlR3S for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:28:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wj0-x22a.google.com (mail-wj0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C8B412946D for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:28:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wj0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id mp19so19881779wjc.1 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:28:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aliax-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vzBmfAOvxxZIB9aJXSNpaOqgQ4liCxBsvTKG+v3QcFE=; b=ZgCAa2BAyjG+1RbDEL8iEiax47nBgT1OfcPDXxbd4rYL7rdcAd8ELNXSUmMH2JvO2C YL+P6Uwv/LIDQxg8qCJeBGMTANe4Y29FCBqM9k80859YSfRHQfSFdXhJIpa+gtdo930e 4KaaPoJn4pqoSWiWSTQkEuVtzCjaPyGV2RtS12ggs6Ju0EWJjT46wVvy4Bk6/HA0EeVb M+6QNK3EaXJO2B9CQ1bRvEmcmuZKCi7OyWCovL7mEmOkpSAOPhPspqiw0gvLM8ehm3fE KvR6Q9tfpGrpGvnBcJRG7nbi+LyrnJ5WTdAdR02plJspARUU8U0WMcVPN5Lf9tket+nK xzbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vzBmfAOvxxZIB9aJXSNpaOqgQ4liCxBsvTKG+v3QcFE=; b=escjmrPIkH+LWeu6D2fTMj3L8T63K7fMx+ZzbCSvZaOoT7nGnJpja3wzwmuRDmI7jX jg5zdjeEANkXIw3C3dmyMiWnPjx+9lL4wqu84JQ0KqV34eEPY6lxvRLjvJSJLZhggYil M7Hx4YYO6XubWv8r5mvydDngCvQ3p98lUPTtA7YaD55eNdQpfRcQD+EyT3jKVnPDSC+K mMheCd52e7OngKbttUtInly+jNif1YpJngl0rObRtVFcCAUxs1oYMTPiR0Hy6IccctjO 1zLYGMdURGML5VPA1CbcVeeUXeSgSTGuEnyHYCoLptT+t4I7F9a05/IROFm55Il2raoN ug8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC02tcUJ3sLQkI25ICgZDhcdHcgwNeQ/UuPJg2nB1rfRq2omQSj5qCTbWdmmW7EW29Sk87r8OVXZ/55gyQw== X-Received: by 10.194.222.202 with SMTP id qo10mr6921781wjc.115.1479684486601; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:28:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.23.196 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 15:27:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 00:27:46 +0100 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org, bfcpbis@ietf.org, Christer Holmberg , "mmusic@ietf.org" , Alan Ford Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 23:28:10 -0000 2016-11-21 0:23 GMT+01:00 Roman Shpount : > I just wanted to add to my previous email, that according to RFC 6544 > protocols running over tcp candidates MUST use RFC 4571 framing > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6544#section-10.1). This means that BFCP > running over tcp candidate is not TCP/BFCP and will require a different > transport tag. IMHO the exact transport is just "ICE". ICE itself is a "virtual transport" that can use many "real transports" (UDP, TCP+RFC4571, etc). So ICE/BFCP would be my way to go. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From nobody Mon Nov 21 01:25:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BF71298A6; Mon, 21 Nov 2016 01:25:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KUC7GBCvHqHr; Mon, 21 Nov 2016 01:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 737A61298A0; Mon, 21 Nov 2016 01:25:50 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-ec9d598000007ee2-e6-5832bd9c9ab0 Received: from ESESSHC010.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.48]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id DC.0D.32482.C9DB2385; Mon, 21 Nov 2016 10:25:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.16]) by ESESSHC010.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.48]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Mon, 21 Nov 2016 10:25:47 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Roman Shpount , Alan Ford Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE Thread-Index: AQHSQFwT8S0xdJKeakq1+K6kpgEs7aDcZjMAgAAHVICAAXMfAIAAEJmAgASHdQCAALfl8A== Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 09:25:46 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE823C9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: 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sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7F461298B1; Mon, 21 Nov 2016 01:28:05 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-96c1b98000001942-57-5832be23e21e Received: from ESESSHC024.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.90]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id FF.00.06466.32EB2385; Mon, 21 Nov 2016 10:28:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.16]) by ESESSHC024.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Mon, 21 Nov 2016 10:27:14 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: =?utf-8?B?ScOxYWtpIEJheiBDYXN0aWxsbw==?= , Roman Shpount Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE Thread-Index: AQHSQFwT8S0xdJKeakq1+K6kpgEs7aDcZjMAgAAHVICAAXMfAIAAEJmAgASHdQCAAAE2AIAAt+ug Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 09:27:14 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE823F6@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprCIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7lK7KPqMIg8/XuS1WnlvBbPFv3VEm i+n7bCy+Xai1mLr8MYvFjAtTmR3YPM41vGf32DnrLrvHkiU/mTxuTSkIYInisklJzcksSy3S t0vgynh9T6agg6PiwZrvjA2Mb9i7GDk4JARMJP6+4+1i5OIQEljHKLH//08WCGcxo8T6uROY QIrYBCwkuv9pdzFycogIJEosmTmbHaSGWWACo8Tyv3/YQRLCAqYSm45fZoMoMpPYvHAJI4Qd JXF99h5WEJtFQFXi+eoNYPW8Ar4Sh3q/sIDYQgKPmSUmXuIFsTkFAiVO9t8Dm8MoICbx/dQa JhCbWUBc4taT+WC2hICAxJI955khbFGJl4//sULYShKNS56wgtzMLKApsX6XPkSrosSU7odQ awUlTs58wjKBUXQWkqmzEDpmIemYhaRjASPLKkbR4tTipNx0IyO91KLM5OLi/Dy9vNSSTYzA uDq45bfBDsaXzx0PMQpwMCrx8BbcNIgQYk0sK67MPcQowcGsJMLLtdcoQog3JbGyKrUoP76o NCe1+BCjNAeLkjiv2cr74UIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZJg5OqQbGEpdQo/elpVnvbvF+qykXXXmP 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[bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 15:39:08 -0000 2016-11-21 10:27 GMT+01:00 Christer Holmberg : > This has been discussed before: the procedures have to be backward compat= ible with non-ICE endpoints. I'd rather deprecate non-ICE endpoints. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From nobody Tue Nov 22 12:43:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29BF3129B9C for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tsiw98Dj7kpk for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86E05129464 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id w33so20306850qtc.3 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3iKSBzFQaKMjedQ3r42H65d//wDAyff7B7Du8hxDSyM=; b=cFd7CzaB2LLmCw2V2MbJ0mZFYUwb4XUChOEpR9oGbbiRAb+X26e2o2LV7tnejSIB0m 5XWotjAKII0CgR/T96/oZCsoUa+qeFvbGewsg1paEplmtcm78s1lmN4taUb4jgC9uSPb jcdNojYMnmMhxTNXPQs69zap/st7usb0NzSMsYzDiQTYxgRFUl6Uujf4ixwoUoKDXXvm 35sioseqZqrFRnRSVIifAVTymiqVZ9lnEkMImGrkYaNn9INyAAOIzX7S3+UcaIGRh+Ek B3aEIPz0ZuO/Dz8nmf+47jOVoV9uqasgRrMLVookU6t0DGyVfvZOa6dMi110VGVmb6M6 n6CQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3iKSBzFQaKMjedQ3r42H65d//wDAyff7B7Du8hxDSyM=; b=ioHCWAuh2jpFoF286aNn3d7nsoapX57F/BpXeFS7uabDVjagzhPLcxKbjPV53CdrP+ NMzkXgyLL7Yh2xU8ZiHd7LWU6o8UGQebQDG30rsay/Ywfy4+AiwLdrGsotfeP0EoftRa TT3W4WnSMVLOa/KLvAJQSfLKGxqPgv8u03yztc7UHcSalqBqWk1SCHLOK4WjI8OuVF3l kgvWcfoH1tLtmSfEaPfWoJIuQU7wHI2NxmtOM7HuK+TN5LRpCDZqResOLuC+QDopOnR/ lltUxPIGu74+vip+3Q7kyhgxmI6i4X04y7yTmz+xJYi5Hbv8GDwotEpnB1nXP9UeuZ9V e+1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC00WBesoXym73/eTPbGiD8aGPDRl35xLUa4lLBafT7Fnp67HxHjr575nKMGFDHOA8g== X-Received: by 10.200.52.143 with SMTP id w15mr12531379qtb.187.1479847411491; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-f180.google.com (mail-qt0-f180.google.com. [209.85.216.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 96sm14571503qkz.40.2016.11.22.12.43.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-f180.google.com with SMTP id n6so20491181qtd.1; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:30 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.200.56.88 with SMTP id r24mr14801386qtb.39.1479847410534; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.135.243 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:43:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE823C9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE823C9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Roman Shpount Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:43:30 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ce4763a35620541e9d344 Archived-At: Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , Alan Ford Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:43:39 -0000 --001a113ce4763a35620541e9d344 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christer, I think this is another way around -- BFCP would have to use RFC 4571 framing when using tcp candidates. There is deployed equipment (SBC) that rely on the fact that RFC 4571 framing is used by tcp candidates in ICE. I am not sure there are ICE implementations of BFCP. I think new implementation should be updated to comply with existing standards, not another way around. Can someone provide some insight regarding BFCP with UDP and ICE implementation? Are there implementations of either? I see the RFC for TCP/BFCP, but it looks like UDP/BFCP and BFCP with ICE only exist in drafts= . My proposal either to limit ICE support to UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP, or define new transport tag DBFCP (datagram BFCP), and define ICE support for UDP/DBFCP and TCP/DBFCP, where UDP version of BFCP is used over udp and tcp ICE candidates, with RFC 4571 framing used in case of tcp candidates. If this is done, we can make UDP/DTLS/BFCP MUST implement if ICE is supported for encrypted (and UDP/DBFCP for non-encrypted), make default candidate UDP, and all the ICE problems disappear. Not sure about the current state of MSRP and ICE, but I do not think there are any implementations of it. Probably the best way to implement it now would be over datachannel or quick. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:25 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi Roman, > > > > Good catch. > > > > That basically means that bfcpbis would have to document the usage of > framing for BFCP-TCP =E2=80=93 assuming they want BFCP-TCP to work with I= CE. > > > > I assume the same applies to MSRP (when not using an MSRP relay). > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > *From:* Roman Shpount [mailto:roman@telurix.com] > *Sent:* 21 November 2016 01:23 > *To:* Alan Ford > *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; mmusic@ietf.org= ; > ice@ietf.org; bfcpbis@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE > > > > Hi All, > > > > I just wanted to add to my previous email, that according to RFC > 6544 protocols running over tcp candidates MUST use RFC 4571 framing ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6544#section-10.1). This means that BFCP > running over tcp candidate is not TCP/BFCP and will require a different > transport tag. > > > > Regards, > > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > There are three comments I wanted to make regarding general nature of all > existing protocols designed to work ICE > > > > 1. Protocols running on top of ICE assume that regardless what candidate > pair is used, including tcp candidates, the underlying network transport = is > unordered and unreliable. During nomination, including continuous > nomination, candidate pairs can switch, including switching from udp to t= cp > or from tcp to udp. This typically means that protocol re-transmit timers > are operational, packets are re-ordered at the protocol level, and > UDP-friendly packet sizes are used even when packets are sent over tcp > candidates. For instance DTLS and SCTP re-transmit timers, reordering, an= d > fragmentation support are still running when tcp candidates are used. > > > > 2. Protocols do not assume that particular candidate network transport > runs all the way from origination to final destination of the protocol > packets. For instance there are SBC which only handle ICE. These SBC run > the ICE state machine and then transmit the underlying protocol data to t= he > final destination using public IP. Because of this, it is not unusual for > RTP to run over tcp candidate until SBC and then run over UDP to the fina= l > destination. This is one more reason why re-transmit timers and other > mechanisms used to deal with UDP are still running over tcp candidates. > > > > 3. I am not aware of any current protocol running over ICE tcp candidates > which is not using RFC4571 framing. For instance DTLS could have been > implemented using DTLS protocol framing without RFC4571 over tcp > candidates, but this was not the case. This is partially done to simplify > implementation of SBC which terminate ICE and transmit protocol data usin= g > UDP. By using RFC 4571 framing, SBC can packetize/de-packetize data > transmitted over tcp candidates without knowing protocol details. > > > > To conclude, up until this point ICE tcp candidates were not treated as > reliable transport and served simply as another way to transmit UDP packe= ts > through firewalls. Because of this, I would argue that BFCP running over > tcp candidate is not the same as TCP/BFCP, in the same way as DTLS runnin= g > over tcp candidate is not TLS. > > > > I would also argue that any protocol running over ICE is, in essence, a > UDP based protocol, using tcp candidates only as a fall back mechanism fo= r > firewall traversal, same way as when data is relayed over TURN TCP, it is > still considered sent over UDP at the protocol level. > > > > If ICE group agrees, I think this should be documented by saying that UDP > is a MUST implement for any protocol using ICE and that default candidate > should be UDP based. > > > > Regards, > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Alan Ford wrote: > > Adding bfcpbis. > > > > You raise a good point Roman - there=E2=80=99s no definition of how to ac= tually > use ICE with BFCP at the protocol level - this only came up in some very > late reviews of 4582bis. The initial suggestion was to use the same text = as > in draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-19, but it then raised the point that, > given BFCP does not have a MTI protocol, if the offerer supported both th= ey > would include their preferred option, but if the receiver supported the > other variant, there=E2=80=99s no way to immediately negotiate that witho= ut a > re-INVITE. > > > > Christer=E2=80=99s suggestion to relax the requirement that the m-line pr= otocol *in > the answer* matches one of the ICE candidates would support the case > where the offerer supports both but prefers UDP, but the answerer only > supports TCP. Although no implementations currently do ICE here, this > relaxation would leave the door open to gaining this negotiation > flexibility in bfcpbis implementations. There seems no reason to have thi= s > requirement applied to the answer in the first place. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand the comment about SBCs; today, tcp candidates = are used > for media and data channels end-to-end in WebRTC, to name but one > implementation. > > > > Regards, > > Alan > > > > On 17 Nov 2016, at 03:05, Roman Shpount wrote: > > > > Adding ICE group to this message. > > > > The approach always was that tcp candidates can potentially go only as fa= r > as SBC and then be terminated by UDP transport. Because of this everythin= g > transmitted over tcp candidate was still considered to be transmitted ove= r > the unreliable out-of-order transport. It is also assumed that candidates > can switch from UDP to TCP based candidate during nomination. This is why= , > for instance, we run DTLS with RFC4571 framing over tcp candidates, not > TLS. Because of this I always thought that ICE is UDP first with addition= al > TCP transports for situation when UDP will not work. So, as a result, I > think ICE-bis should specify that UDP MUST be supported and default > candidate MUST be UDP. ICE SDP can reflect this, but I think this is the > underlying protocol requirement. > > > > I also wanted to add that BFCP needs to examine how ICE support is > implemented by this protocol. I think it is not covered in the current > drafts. I also think I do not think it is possible for TCP/BFCP to run ov= er > ICE. On the other hand UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP would trivial base= d > on current DTLS work. > > > > Regards, > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > I have no problem with Roman=E2=80=99s must-support-UDP suggestion. I gue= ss the > question is whether the BFCP folks could accept that. Cullen did say that > TCP-based BFCP deployments have been around for a decade. But, do they > support ICE? > > > > If we decide to move forward with such approach, we need to ask ourselves > whether must-support-UDP should be an ICE requirement (in which case the > suggestion should be brought to the ICE WG) or whether it should only be = an > ICE-using-SIP-SDP requirement. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Roman > Shpount > *Sent:* 17 November 2016 00:52 > *To:* mmusic@ietf.org > *Subject:* [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE > > > > Hi All, > > > > I just wanted to return to the m=3D line protocol issue that Christer rai= sed > during the last MMUSIC session. > > > > All the ICE implementations I've seen are primarily UDP based with suppor= t > for tcp host candidates which are primarily used to connect to end points > on public IP. If all ICE implementations are continue to be primarily UDP > based, then the simplest solution would be to require UDP support when an= y > given protocol is implemented over ICE. DTLS and RTP are already primaril= y > UDP based so this is a non-requirement. Even more, all protocols that are > implemented on top of ICE must assume that underling transports (includin= g > tcp candidates) are unreliable, since candidate pair can change at any ti= me > between reliable and unreliable transports, so this makes them different > from protocols implemented on plain TCP or TLS. > > > > So the first question I wanted to ask is anybody interested in TCP only > ICE implementation where the protocol running on top of such implementati= on > relies on the reliable delivery of underlying messages? By this I mean, > does anybody wants implement TCP based ICE, with simultaneous open, > reflexive and relay candidates in such a way that ICE implementation will > run from behind NAT without ever needing a UDP candidate? > > > > I understand that BFCP was used for a long time, but I do not think > TCP/BFCP or TCP/TLS/BFCP can even be used with ICE. I think only UDP/BFCP= , > UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP can even support ICE. > > > > I think both rfc4582bis and rfc4583bis need a careful review and > additional sections that describe ICE considerations. I think the most > obvious thing would be to specify that ICE can only be supported by > UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP. It will also mean in which cas= e > RFC4571 is used when tcp candidates are used. Furthermore, when tcp > candidate is selected with UDP/BFCP transport, it is not the same thing a= s > using TCP/BFCP and will need a different transport tag (something like > TCP/UDP/BFCP). Alternatively we can require that only secure versions of > BFCP are used with ICE and only allow ICE usage for UDP/DTLS/BFCP and > TCP/DTLS/BFCP. > > > > To conclude, I would argue that the simplest solution would be that for > all protocols implemented on top of ICE, UDP MUST be supported and defaul= t > candidates MUST be UDP based. This avoids building uncomfortable artifici= al > constructs to avoid ICE mismatch and requires minimal changes to existing > specifications. > > > > Regards, > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > > > > > --001a113ce4763a35620541e9d344 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Christer,

I think this is another way a= round -- BFCP would have to use RFC 4571 framing when using tcp candidates.=

There is deployed equipment (SBC) that rely on th= e fact that RFC 4571 framing is used by tcp candidates in ICE. I am not sur= e there are ICE implementations of BFCP. I think new implementation should = be updated to comply with existing standards, not another way around.
=

Can someone provide some insight regarding BFCP with UD= P and ICE implementation? Are there implementations of either? I see the RF= C for TCP/BFCP, but it looks like UDP/BFCP and BFCP with ICE only exist in = drafts.

My proposal either to limit ICE support to= UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP, or define new transport tag DBFCP (datagr= am BFCP), and define ICE support for UDP/DBFCP and TCP/DBFCP, where UDP ver= sion of BFCP is used over udp and tcp ICE candidates, with =C2=A0RFC 4571 f= raming used in case of tcp candidates.

If this is = done, we can make UDP/DTLS/BFCP MUST implement if ICE is supported for encr= ypted (and UDP/DBFCP for non-encrypted), make default candidate UDP, and=C2= =A0all the ICE problems disappear.=C2=A0

Not sure = about the current state of MSRP and ICE, but I do not think there are any i= mplementations of it. Probably the best way to implement it now would be ov= er datachannel or quick.

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:25 AM, Christer Ho= lmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:<= br>

Hi Roman,

=C2=A0

Good catch.

=C2=A0

That basically means that bfcpbis wou= ld have to document the usage of framing for BFCP-TCP =E2=80=93 assuming th= ey want BFCP-TCP to work with ICE.

=C2=A0

I assume the same applies to MSRP (wh= en not using an MSRP relay).

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c= olor:#1f497d">=C2=A0

From: = Roman Shpount [mailto:roman@telurix.com]
Sent: 21 November 2016 01:23
To: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; mmusic@ietf.org; ice@ietf.org; bfcpbis@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE

=C2=A0

Hi All,

=C2=A0

I just wanted to add to my previous email, that acco= rding to RFC 6544=C2=A0protocols running over tcp candidates MUST use =C2= =A0RFC 4571 framing (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6544#section-1= 0.1). This means that BFCP running over tcp candidate is not TCP/BFCP and will r= equire a different transport tag.

=C2=A0

Regards,


_____________
Roman Shpount

=C2=A0

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Roman Shpount <<= a href=3D"mailto:roman@telurix.com" target=3D"_blank">roman@telurix.com= > wrote:

Hi All,

=C2=A0

There are three comments I wanted to make regarding = general nature of all existing protocols designed to work ICE=

=C2=A0

1. Protocols running on top of ICE assume that regar= dless what candidate pair is used, including tcp candidates, the underlying= network transport is unordered and unreliable. During nomination, includin= g continuous nomination, candidate pairs can switch, including switching from udp to tcp or from tcp to udp. = This typically means that protocol re-transmit timers are operational, pack= ets are re-ordered at the protocol level, and =C2=A0UDP-friendly packet siz= es are used even when packets are sent over tcp candidates. For instance DTLS and SCTP re-transmit timers, reorde= ring, and fragmentation support are still running when tcp candidates are u= sed.

=C2=A0

2. Protocols do not assume that particular candidate= network transport runs all the way from origination to final destination o= f the protocol packets. For instance there are SBC which only handle ICE. T= hese SBC run the ICE state machine and then transmit the underlying protocol data to the final destination us= ing public IP. Because of this, it is not unusual for RTP to run over tcp c= andidate until SBC and then run over UDP to the final destination. This is = one more reason why re-transmit timers and other mechanisms used to deal with UDP are still running over t= cp candidates.

=C2=A0

3. I am not aware of any current protocol running ov= er ICE tcp candidates which is not using RFC4571 framing. For instance DTLS= could have been implemented using DTLS protocol framing without RFC4571 ov= er tcp candidates, but this was not the case. This is partially done to simplify implementation of SBC which t= erminate ICE and transmit protocol data using UDP. By using RFC 4571 framin= g, SBC can packetize/de-packetize data transmitted over tcp candidates with= out knowing protocol details.

=C2=A0

To conclude, up until this point ICE tcp candidates = were not treated as reliable transport and served simply as another way to = transmit UDP packets through firewalls. Because of this, I would argue that= BFCP running over tcp candidate is not the same as TCP/BFCP, in the same way as DTLS running over tcp candida= te is not TLS.

=C2=A0

I would also argue that any protocol running over IC= E is, in essence, a UDP based protocol, using tcp candidates only as a fall= back mechanism for firewall traversal, same way as when data is relayed ov= er TURN TCP, it is still considered sent over UDP at the protocol level.

=C2=A0

If ICE group agrees, I think this should be document= ed by saying that UDP is a MUST implement for any protocol using ICE and th= at default candidate should be UDP based.

=C2=A0

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount=

=C2=A0

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com= > wrote:

Adding bfcpbis.

=C2=A0

You raise a good point Roman - there=E2=80=99s no de= finition of how to actually use ICE with BFCP at the protocol level - this = only came up in some very late reviews of 4582bis. The initial suggestion w= as to use the same text as in=C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp-19, but it then raised the point that, given BFCP does not have a MTI protocol= , if the offerer supported both they would include their preferred option, = but if the receiver supported the other variant, there=E2=80=99s no way to = immediately negotiate that without a re-INVITE.

=C2=A0

Christer=E2=80=99s suggestion to relax the requireme= nt that the m-line protocol in the answer=C2=A0matches one of the ICE candidates would support t= he case where the offerer supports both but prefers UDP, but the answerer o= nly supports TCP. Although no implementations currently do ICE here, this r= elaxation would leave the door open to gaining this negotiation flexibility in bfcpbis implementations. There see= ms no reason to have this requirement applied to the answer in the first pl= ace.

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t understand the comment about SBCs; t= oday, tcp candidates are used for media and data channels end-to-end in Web= RTC, to name but one implementation.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Alan

=C2=A0

On 17 Nov 2016, at 03:05, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> w= rote:

=C2=A0

Adding ICE group to this message.

=C2=A0

The approach always was that tcp candidates can pote= ntially go only as far as SBC and then be terminated by UDP transport. Beca= use of this everything transmitted over tcp candidate was still considered = to be transmitted over the unreliable out-of-order transport. It is also assumed that candidates can switch from= UDP to TCP based candidate during nomination. This is why, for instance, w= e run DTLS with RFC4571 framing over tcp candidates, not TLS. Because of th= is I always thought that ICE is UDP first with additional TCP transports for situation when UDP will not w= ork. So, as a result, I think ICE-bis should specify that UDP MUST be suppo= rted and default candidate MUST be UDP. ICE SDP can reflect this, but I thi= nk this is the underlying protocol requirement.

=C2=A0

I also wanted to add that BFCP needs to examine how = ICE support is implemented by this protocol. I think it is not covered in t= he current drafts. I also think I do not think it is possible for TCP/BFCP = to=C2=A0run over ICE. On the other hand UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP would trivial based on current DTLS work.<= u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

=C2=A0

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Christer Holmberg &= lt;chri= ster.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

I have no problem with Roman=E2=80=99= s must-support-UDP suggestion. I guess the question is whether the BFCP folks could accept that. Cullen did say that TCP-based BFCP deployments ha= ve been around for a decade. But, do they support ICE?=

=C2=A0

If we decide to move forward with suc= h approach, we need to ask ourselves whether must-support-UDP should be an ICE requirement (in which case the suggestion should be broug= ht to the ICE WG) or whether it should only be an ICE-using-SIP-SDP require= ment.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: = mmusic [mailto:mmusi= c-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roman Shpount
Sent: 17 November 2016 00:52
To: mmusic@ietf= .org
Subject: [MMUSIC] m=3D line protocol in case of ICE=

=C2=A0

Hi All,

=C2=A0

I just wanted to return to the m=3D line protocol is= sue that Christer raised during the last MMUSIC session.

=C2=A0

All the ICE implementations I've seen are primar= ily UDP based with support for tcp host candidates which are primarily used= to connect to end points on public IP. If all ICE implementations are continue to be primarily UDP based, then the simplest solution would b= e to require UDP support when any given protocol is implemented over ICE. D= TLS and RTP are already primarily UDP based so this is a non-requirement. E= ven more, all protocols that are implemented on top of ICE must assume that underling transports (including= tcp candidates) are unreliable, since candidate pair can change at any tim= e between reliable and unreliable transports, so this makes them different = from protocols implemented on plain TCP or TLS.

=C2=A0

So the first question I wanted to ask is anybody int= erested in TCP only ICE implementation where the protocol running on top of= such implementation relies on the reliable delivery of underlying messages? By this I mean, does anybody wants implement TCP b= ased ICE, with simultaneous open, reflexive and relay candidates in such a = way that ICE implementation will run from behind NAT without ever needing a= UDP candidate?

=C2=A0

I understand that BFCP was used for a long time, but= I do not think TCP/BFCP or TCP/TLS/BFCP can even be used with ICE. I think= only UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP can even support ICE.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think both=C2=A0rfc4582bis and rfc4583bis need a c= areful review and additional sections that describe ICE considerations. I t= hink the most obvious thing would be to specify that ICE can only be supported by UDP/BFCP, UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP. It wil= l also mean in which case RFC4571 is used when tcp candidates are used. Fur= thermore, when tcp candidate is selected with UDP/BFCP transport, it is not= the same thing as using TCP/BFCP and will need a different transport tag (something like TCP/UDP/BFCP). Alt= ernatively we can require that only secure versions of BFCP are used with I= CE and only allow ICE usage for UDP/DTLS/BFCP and TCP/DTLS/BFCP.<= /u>

=C2=A0

To conclude, I would argue that the simplest solutio= n would be that for all protocols implemented on top of ICE, UDP MUST be su= pported and default candidates MUST be UDP based. This avoids building uncomfortable artificial constructs to avoid ICE mism= atch and requires minimal changes to existing specifications.=

=C2=A0

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________ mmusic ma= iling list
mmusic@ietf.org https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--001a113ce4763a35620541e9d344-- From nobody Tue Nov 22 14:15:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BD9129BA1 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:15:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aliax-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wMZJP1GE8o_X for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wj0-x233.google.com (mail-wj0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c01::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 108FC1296C0 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wj0-x233.google.com with SMTP id mp19so50073333wjc.1 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:15:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aliax-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=l3PKl8t2B6Tv7rUn2nEqupK0WsZ0RGpPtF5UXnDPMy8=; b=ZxHwnHIqvMdSA5AoqmN6VBzn8LWFcaAabSJZ0bMuh1YQW9jCZ7mgqF9GFX/ENmdQ2U otuuZAzuniA7CAux/eImOIgbDR0G9aae2iah+ZVimAl8nqh/MjgdkX4M533J/OQ9K1rM zU87VvhMZnWWdS2GhF7JbkNpSIAItjU8QDIlhDyhxrzSS/8PbVecR+vF6AtSXWeaZeIx WWMdBB++6TmmqwiezkQd+1AXDq3XxI6nyNp8F9/zAhQTvXqmKAF+4Kn1B+1PyNp1Tg4C 8l6BiVaB+pES5TPmCo1qXKlPzLvDN91/ReptEBlZ1nYPzqLJ00nglxTWGILbZ3e1EBkJ JMBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=l3PKl8t2B6Tv7rUn2nEqupK0WsZ0RGpPtF5UXnDPMy8=; b=mN6g2wwBPSXZlNj98xIClX5AY5DCJ/cPxiIIWToPZt4KdQGtm3AMyOG92hIQ5kn3kZ NwtvpXGvfTz3j/q73k75M5PIum7VmxfDeGhfeAXDZDgzIaCQG+8Jc5iS9CoJUVnLU19d RpN9oqlVCFKJNzTtgxHGGV0c8ITnA462/k8b2latnYhdoMxBK/KeqH3J0Sukia/sMdJp W3DwmzIiVJhsLbP7c5iOeNIf6Prhh71udpI/0anP6cll411QH9kHktHPDr6MXY/80YaX LOc1bC1hVbyzEJtxDxOgvZ1oJOjZfqK4qVgJUP8pzxlpVnyZb7pBNbb6H/qjX2q1P7Uy rDRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC031xKKeX0a8bXonTxdW4DedSq9xhLFx/5r9ZWYaxO5X8zQOWdlXfM/xRrK9VABF86ZBCb12z17pwuYZHw== X-Received: by 10.194.113.2 with SMTP id iu2mr449442wjb.32.1479852933634; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:15:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.146.48 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:15:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE823C9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:15:13 +0100 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 22:15:37 -0000 2016-11-22 21:43 GMT+01:00 Roman Shpount : > Can someone provide some insight regarding BFCP with UDP and ICE > implementation? Are there implementations of either? I bet there is no one implementation. In fact, I implemented "JSFCP" (JSON version of BFCP) over WebSocket. > Not sure about the current state of MSRP and ICE, but I do not think ther= e > are any implementations of it. Of course not. And the fact that there are MSRP relays (by spec) makes it even more difficult to move to more efficient solutions such as "anything" over UDP/ICE/DTLS/SCTP or similar. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From nobody Tue Nov 22 21:16:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3E4129488; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 21:16:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4a-w48SYCkbq; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 21:16:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57D4F129401; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 21:16:48 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-96c1b98000001942-7c-5835263e18f7 Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E3.D6.06466.E3625385; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 06:16:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.16]) by ESESSHC012.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.54]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 06:16:05 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki_Baz_Castillo?= , Roman Shpount Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE Thread-Index: AQHSQFwT8S0xdJKeakq1+K6kpgEs7aDcZjMAgAAHVICAAXMfAIAAEJmAgASHdQCAALfl8IACQBUAgAAZoICAAIi5AA== Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 05:16:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE823C9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.9.160926 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <67D824805D603D4AA6683DEC18690CA1@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrAIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja6dmmmEwbzLyhb/1h1lspi+z8bi 24Vai6nLH7NYzLgwldmB1eNcw3t2jyVLfjJ53JpSEMAcxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJWx/cMF1oK3 zBXNvz6zNjA2MXcxcnJICJhIHPjwkaWLkYtDSGA9o8TuQ4fZIZzFjBLHDm9m7WLk4GATsJDo /qcN0iAiECdxb/t0NhCbWSBf4sjPpywgJcICphITrktBlJhJbF64hBHCzpK4uHoNK4jNIqAq sWPaXrC9vALWEvOuNTBCrHrHItE5fyYLSIJTIFBibuMvsGZGATGJ76fWMEHsEpe49WQ+E8TR AhJL9pyHekBU4uXjf2BnigroSay5HwYRVpT4+GofI0SrnsSNqVOgTraWOLbtN5StLbFs4Wuo ewQlTs58wjKBUXwWkm2zkLTPQtI+C0n7LCTtCxhZVzGKFqcWJ+WmGxnppRZlJhcX5+fp5aWW bGIExuPBLb8NdjC+fO54iFGAg1GJh7cg1iRCiDWxrLgy9xCjBAezkghvrJxphBBvSmJlVWpR fnxRaU5q8SFGaQ4WJXFes5X3w4UE0hNLUrNTUwtSi2CyTBycUg2MRSU3P4mLpvab+T/6cD/0 Ro3UoX71D6JF3d82aWz1XbkneWkVq2LiwtxT76bn7HmbkM958fiF+JkHJkm9etAlHB5vUDlX K7yMyULA3eTvibS8ulMfO5/vcmW5nRGUaXZ4qa3m62c/yh2ik9fyScb+Cv+/57LIHN7fOh2f X1np/P07++z0rmc1SizFGYmGWsxFxYkAXgcm4sMCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 05:16:50 -0000 Hi, >> Not sure about the current state of MSRP and ICE, but I do not think >>there >> are any implementations of it. > >Of course not. And the fact that there are MSRP relays (by spec) makes >it even more difficult to move to more efficient solutions such as >"anything" over UDP/ICE/DTLS/SCTP or similar. The deployments I am aware of don=B9t use relays. Anyway, *IF* someone want= s to define ICE support for MSRP, he/she can =B3write a draft=B2 :) Regards, Christer From nobody Wed Nov 23 01:58:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83818129A3D for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:58:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aliax-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YPGsVVPQaIwE for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7E67129AEA for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:58:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id t79so15758076wmt.0 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:58:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aliax-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Bg972yPZM83TuMN93G4BVhIrPJK89zFmtnMmVAlpqKc=; b=I8qrU4HplY0gsuGf5IhUXGins5uD6vW+/zWc6P/CQYmLha/8fbFQ/9mzhUkVdjLNGm A4x+MLS+ApZaoCT82FkGG1Yk5J/mrBoxGEoWk8AOBGN2xp82iWDFsYvq3VKnO29xwLfV KAB2F5sqhBTzUuzNEDJ1odbNdiyjRp157w+kpdoub9+U2LikgnVjUkoRyBkeX623vvd+ d63hMPBID7n14+3x50NoYIXNIZr2XtTje3GFC/z+eVQ00SW7gSIBw+DsJ4FTwopBBop+ 7iiSEjrBNNj/r/JEo0I+HdP6MP7d5BluJBcpbNQJqwO1/sKh96MlDHHPAkZPHpY9/I5O W1SQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Bg972yPZM83TuMN93G4BVhIrPJK89zFmtnMmVAlpqKc=; b=CottkgyVUElloukeLquBaWUy80Nydoq44pz/6Pc+DDvcs0VjErLQgyMh19cD1Llfix WhjxNFUzAN9+MaY+E4bEeBWrkjVfZ/EmtA/qEv2uGQY+InmuzoFVQqmF4zLuuEqhstuJ uVaekzTDDSkCbtdl7h65eg4Y4DIJcW9v8+vIYMFgJ/b55NIHN0ANAQi3mwK6UslB2ODx 6fQh3M9ogrfa0umqazwSFlLOtNk9LMvLpwDUhZNHWIWsBRUeoWI1O9WgtP4jjY37SEKB x3UAaCq72HQLl3unrc/fmnG30mF3vqlrnfLW7MZULq2vll13vNMhIbY1jaWnd6nVlo3S ViMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC019Rs3vT4+jr3bv99KORkGSJY/Fm8jtDT0prxsrARr3jc/wIZOLMJk4IYhLbN5hgHh1rp3OmtPeeNEZzg== X-Received: by 10.28.51.211 with SMTP id z202mr6838202wmz.125.1479895116251; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:58:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.146.48 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:58:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE823C9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:58:15 +0100 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 09:58:44 -0000 2016-11-23 6:16 GMT+01:00 Christer Holmberg : >>Of course not. And the fact that there are MSRP relays (by spec) makes >>it even more difficult to move to more efficient solutions such as >>"anything" over UDP/ICE/DTLS/SCTP or similar. > > The deployments I am aware of don=C2=B9t use relays. Yep. I'm pretty sure those deployments don't use Outbound/GRUU (RFC 5626/5627) nor MSRP relay servers (RFC 4976). Probably they all use their own private SIP extensions to handle TCP based connections and probably they implement middle-boxes that prevent SIP body encryption (draft-ietf-simple-msrp-sessmatch) because those magic middle-boxes need to mangle the SDP for things to work in walled gardens. However, the IETF is supposed to do stuff for the real Internet, and there are still good guys building real stuff on top of real Internet standards: http://msrprelay.org/ --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From nobody Tue Nov 29 09:48:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD9A12955D; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 09:48:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.018 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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2016 11:48:18 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:48:18 -0600 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Alan Ford , Roman Shpount Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE Thread-Index: AQHSQFwSEnIqX9JFq0OJWjTO/qYWEKDczAiAgAAW2ICAAXMeAIAR2UqA Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 17:48:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.20.182.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D0210B5A138A4C868D146E1FEC011E33ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: 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<1C782CB8-B5D0-4443-9B6B-443D0429C916@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE1E43C@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <2FBE6ED0-0C27-4EC8-8D94-F4C3C29F872D@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2FBE6ED0-0C27-4EC8-8D94-F4C3C29F872D@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.20.182.35] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8CC7B63037EC4C1F81FD176D6B48562Bciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Suhas Nandakumar \(snandaku\)" , "mmusic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-15.txt X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 17:56:30 -0000 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[209.85.220.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r15sm31476683qte.9.2016.11.29.10.38.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-f169.google.com with SMTP id n21so184167373qka.3; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:38:29 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.55.197.6 with SMTP id p6mr27881287qki.239.1480444709772; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:38:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.145.205 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:38:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Roman Shpount Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 13:38:29 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1149a18c092c8e054274e565 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg , "mmusic@ietf.org" , Alan Ford Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 18:38:33 -0000 --001a1149a18c092c8e054274e565 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote: > It seems to me that the most straightforward approach would be to mandate > support for BFCP over UDP when using ICE, use UDP as the default candidate, > and signal the BFCP m-line as if it is BFCP over UDP. If we can mandate the > use of DTLS, that would be even better. > > Thoughts? > > > I agree. The only issue that I still have, if DTLS is not used, what protocol is used when ICE tcp candidate is selected for transport. Is this TCP/BFCP (which goes against RFC6544) or is it UDP/BFCP with RFC4571 framing? If it is UDP/BFCP with RFC4571 framing, what transport tag should be used in the re-INVITE which is sent after ICE nomination with only selected candidate? Should it be TCP/UDP/BFCP or something similar? Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --001a1149a18c092c8e054274e565 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) <eckelcu@ci= sco.com> wrote:

It seems to me that the most straightforward approac= h would be to mandate support for BFCP over UDP when using ICE, use UDP as = the default candidate, and signal the BFCP m-line as if it is BFCP over UDP= . If we can mandate the use of DTLS, that would be even better.

Thoughts?

=C2=A0


<= /div>
I agree.

The only issue that I still hav= e, if DTLS is not used, what protocol is used when ICE tcp candidate is=C2= =A0selected for transport. Is this TCP/BFCP (which goes against RFC6544) = =C2=A0or is it UDP/BFCP with RFC4571 framing? If it is UDP/BFCP with RFC457= 1 framing, what transport tag should be used in the re-INVITE which is sent= after ICE nomination with only selected candidate? Should it be TCP/UDP/BF= CP or something similar?

Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2= =A0
--001a1149a18c092c8e054274e565-- From nobody Tue Nov 29 11:31:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A0D129C39; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:31:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yh4zrAIHQtbv; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E58B11299A1; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-ec9d598000007ee2-0d-583dd78126a4 Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.84]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id FE.CF.32482.187DD385; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:31:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.16]) by ESESSHC022.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:31:11 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Roman Shpount , "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] [MMUSIC] m= line protocol in case of ICE Thread-Index: AQHSQFwT8S0xdJKeakq1+K6kpgEs7aDcZjMAgAAHVICAAXMfAIASX2cAgAAOBYCAAB8loA== Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:31:10 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BEB1151@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BE3AE83@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4BEB1151ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrLIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7iG7jddsIgx27xSxWnlvBbPFv3VEm i02zvrBZfLtQazF1+WMWixkXpjI7sHlM+b2R1WPnrLvsHkuW/GTyuDWlIIAlissmJTUnsyy1 SN8ugSvj/d9GtoIDQRUX+u6wNzDOCehi5OSQEDCRmHFqAlsXIxeHkMA6RonGid1QzmJGiYkX zzB3MXJwsAlYSHT/0wZpEBEIk+ifuwKshllgAqPE8r9/2EESwgL2EjM3djJDFDlITN2xiBWm 4er3VjYQm0VAVeLn5D1sIDN5BXwlLvxihNjVwSzx7v8MRpA4p0CgxIRtuSDljAJiEt9PrWEC sZkFxCVuPZnPBHG0gMSSPeeZIWxRiZeP/7FC2EoSK7ZfAhvDLJAvsbnfBiTMKyAocXLmE5YJ jCKzkEyahVA1C0kVRFhTYv0ufYhqRYkp3Q/ZIWwNidY5c9mRxRcwsq9iFC1OLU7KTTcy1kst ykwuLs7P08tLLdnECIzEg1t+q+5gvPzG8RCjAAejEg/vh+m2EUKsiWXFlbmHGCU4mJVEeEOu AIV4UxIrq1KL8uOLSnNSiw8xSnOwKInzmq28Hy4kkJ5YkpqdmlqQWgSTZeLglGpgLGVjPfvn cuBR8QgfmboZBy/uj78oXFm305TnfZVM/w3GTT80jvydLTFZ2W8tr7DasR6OUoG0Qxn8iSHf Xk0R1tr27IuJUOum45dmXJuS735VeKae6JcNlnrZq643SabxPQ0I07lYzb86M3/2pUvfF025 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