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(xch-rcd-012.cisco.com [173.37.102.22]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v73LuhuS015082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 3 Aug 2017 21:56:43 GMT Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) by XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (173.37.102.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:56:42 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 3 Aug 2017 16:56:42 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Christer Holmberg , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" CC: "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" , Roman Shpount , Alan Ford , "Gonzalo Camarillo" , "alan@pexip.com" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] WGLC for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis - Christer's review Thread-Index: AdMCPCFSYamXLa2wSSi7CPCvHfiETwKoe+aA Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2017 21:56:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC93DD7@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC93DD7@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.22.0.170515 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.20.182.36] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <2C019B8011E36B40908DFDD27FDE82D1@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis - Christer's review X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2017 21:56:47 -0000 UGxlYXNlIHNlZSBpbmxpbmUgW2N1ZV0NCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZy b206IENocmlzdGVyIEhvbG1iZXJnIDxjaHJpc3Rlci5ob2xtYmVyZ0Blcmljc3Nvbi5jb20+DQpE 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Sat Aug 5 02:09:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFC7127ABE for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2017 02:09:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H_psS1j-71of for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2017 02:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B385F129ABE for ; Sat, 5 Aug 2017 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X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprLIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7qG5Ad2ukwdMFxhYrz61gtti6ooPN 4t+6o0wWm2Z9YbO4/nQXi8WVI7/YHNg8pvzeyOqxc9Zddo8lS34yeRzdv4DRY+vfv2wBrFFc NimpOZllqUX6dglcGZ+ev2Qv+OBcceDSJLYGxglOXYycHBICJhJ3enazdjFycQgJHGGUWPH4 MDuEs4hR4vm8iYxdjBwcbAIWEt3/tEFMEYEoiY3bhEBKmAXuMUqsmj+DFWSQsECwxPQlW5hB bBGBEIkl27uZIGwribXPV7KD9LIIqEgsmxUHEuYV8JVoauxhgVjVwChx+/ZUsF5OAVuJ68e2 MYLYjAJiEt9PrQGbwywgLnHryXwmiKMFJJbsOc8MYYtKvHz8jxXCVpJYsf0S2MnMApoS63fp Q7QqSkzpfsgOsVdQ4uTMJywTGEVnIZk6C6FjFpKOWUg6FjCyrGIULU4tLs5NNzLWSy3KTC4u zs/Ty0st2cQIjLSDW37r7mBc/drxEKMAB6MSDy9DbWukEGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRFerTCgEG9K YmVValF+fFFpTmrxIUZpDhYlcV6HfRcihATSE0tSs1NTC1KLYLJMHJxSDYxyrhtULd/Me9re 0xf2d4+RmMkCAc8TTR/V1DoPaPBK17d/mLL9RHrgtD1uGUwpvB86IzQXT/ujuGpZms5Xn/t7 7ib/cA287JhWXRpqlKNj9i7nzP0HhV5uM2QYPmVcjLj48CDbQrNEEdtNXAJHmtxidr97VLq/ 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_E1F14111-9E10-4D3A-8A28-DB568DB35391" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Alan Ford In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 09:37:55 +0100 Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" , Roman Shpount , Gonzalo Camarillo , Christer Holmberg Message-Id: <91583BC6-E5FD-42EC-8591-954ADE571577@gmail.com> References: <33AC90F8-1963-4F79-ACB2-0DB2873D5E34@cisco.com> To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 08:38:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E1F14111-9E10-4D3A-8A28-DB568DB35391 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Charles, all, Further comments inline=E2=80=A6 > On 3 Aug 2017, at 23:19, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) = wrote: >=20 > Please see inline [cue] > =20 > From: Alan Ford > > Date: Sunday, July 23, 2017 at 1:01 AM > To: Charles Eckel > > Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org " >, Tom Kristensen >, Roman Shpount >, Gonzalo Camarillo = >, Christer Holmberg = > > Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis > =20 > Hi Charles, all,=20 > =20 > S3 > =20 > - TCP transport indent is hard to parse. Suggest changing sentence to = "Depending on the value of the 'setup' attribute (discussed in Section = 8.1), the port field contains either the port to which the remote = endpoint will direct BFCP messages, or in the case where the endpoint = will initiate the connection towards the remote endpoint, should be set = to a value of 9." > =20 > [cue] works for me > =20 > =20 > S4.1 > =20 > - "The offerer includes this attribute to state all the roles it would = be willing to perform=E2=80=9D: add =E2=80=9Conce negotiation is = complete=E2=80=9D, for clarity. > =20 > [cue] good idea > =20 > - Here, plus S11.1 and S11.2, floorctrl is optional with inferred = state of c-only for an offerer if it is not specified. I would advocate = taking this opportunity to get rid of ambiguity and making the presence = of floorctrl a MUST. Everyone does it already, but it=E2=80=99s one of = the most problematic fields for interop as it is. > =20 > - Also, given in an answer only one role is present, but in an offer = multiple can be present, can this be clearer in the ABNF? Is it possible = to specify two ABNFs, one for the offer and one for the answer (the = answer being without the *)? If that=E2=80=99s not possible, then could = we at least emphasise this point near the start of the section (again = coming at this from too many interop issues in this area). > =20 > [cue] Christer seemed to agree with you. I have been a proponent of = not breaking backward compatibility with RFC 4583 unnecessarily. Anyone = from the original RFC 4583 days able to shed some light on this? I agree with Christer here - it=E2=80=99s not a break in backward = compatibility to mandate it from a offerer's point of view in the new = spec, since this is all which is changing. An old answerer can cope. The = only issue is a new-spec-compliant answerer with an old receiver. To be = fully belt-and-braces here, the receiver should be able to cope without = one and infer it, but the sender MUST always send it. BTW just to flag up my second point there was unrelated to the first, = which you answered=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m not sure how best to present = this information but I think it=E2=80=99s important it=E2=80=99s clearer = near the ABNF definition that multiple roles are possible in an offer. > S6 > =20 > - =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6identified by an SDP label attribute=E2=80=9D. For = consistency, please put =E2=80=98label=E2=80=99 in single quotes. > =20 > [cue] good idea > =20 > - Why is mstrm: optional in the ABNF, and optional in the paragraph = beginning =E2=80=9CThe floorid attribute=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, yet is = mandatory in the =E2=80=9CEndpoints that use the offer/answer=E2=80=A6=E2=80= =9D section? If there is a genuine reason for it to be optional please = specify this, however I think it would be easier just to make it = mandatory. > =20 > [cue] The floorid is defined such that one can specify a floorid yet = not associate it with any media stream, thus the mstrm is optional. This = is how it was defined in RFC 4583. I am not sure if anyone makes use of = this, but that is how it was defined. It would be useful to understand what the use case is for this, but = whether or not it=E2=80=99s required the text is still inconsistent. "It = defines a floor identifier and, possibly, associates it with one or more = media streams.=E2=80=9D makes it sound optional, whereas "A floor = control server acting as an offerer or as an answerer MUST include these = attributes in its session descriptions.=E2=80=9D says =E2=80=9Cthese = attributes=E2=80=9D which I took to mean both label and floorid, and = once you=E2=80=99re including label the inference is that mstrm: should = be added. I think it would be beneficial to clarify one way or the other. Either = mstrm: is a MUST, or clarify why and how it could be used optionally. > =20 > S11 > =20 > Is is required to have a BUNDLE table like this now? (I presume given = draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-16 is in MISSREF it=E2=80=99s too = late to make the updates there). As Christer mentioned, It think this = would be better in S7. OR, a separate subsection under S11 for =E2=80=9CBU= NDLE Considerations=E2=80=9D that makes it clearer that this is an = update to draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-16. > =20 > [cue] agreed > =20 > I assume we don=E2=80=99t want to go down the rabbit hole of defining = BUNDLE for BFCP at this stage? :-) Since if we did, it probably = wouldn=E2=80=99t be too hard - you can demux on confid + userid. > =20 > [cue] We decided previously to leave BUNDLE out of scope. I am happy = to keep it that way. > =20 > =20 > S14.2 > =20 > The =E2=80=9CAllowed attribute values=E2=80=9D here is inconsistent = compared to others by being ABNF rather than just =E2=80=9CA token=E2=80=9D= or =E2=80=9CTokens=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s also wrong - it implies only = one value, not multiple as is the case. Suggest either fixing the ABNF = or saying =E2=80=9Cone or more of=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D or similar. > =20 > [cue] This is how it was defined in RFC 4583. As I understand it, = =E2=80=9C1*=E2=80=9D means it requires at least one, so can have = multiple. >=20 Quite right, brain fart :) Regards, Alan --Apple-Mail=_E1F14111-9E10-4D3A-8A28-DB568DB35391 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi Charles, all,

Further comments inline=E2=80=A6

On = 3 Aug 2017, at 23:19, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) <eckelcu@cisco.com> = wrote:

Please see inline [cue]
 
From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, July 23, 2017 = at 1:01 AM
To: Charles Eckel <eckelcu@cisco.com>
Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" <bfcpbis@ietf.org>, Tom = Kristensen <tomkrist@cisco.com>, Roman Shpount <rshpount@turbobridge.com>, = Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, Christer Holmberg = <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for = draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
 
Hi Charles, all, 
 
S3
 
- TCP transport indent is hard to parse. Suggest = changing sentence to "Depending on the value of the 'setup' attribute = (discussed in Section 8.1), the port field contains either the port to = which the remote endpoint will direct BFCP messages, or in the case = where the endpoint will initiate the connection towards the remote = endpoint, should be set to a value of 9."
 
[cue] works for me
 
 
S4.1
 
- "The offerer includes this attribute to state all = the roles it would be willing to perform=E2=80=9D: add =E2=80=9Conce = negotiation is complete=E2=80=9D, for clarity.
 
[cue] = good idea
 
- Here, plus S11.1 and S11.2, floorctrl is optional = with inferred state of c-only for an offerer if it is not specified. I = would advocate taking this opportunity to get rid of ambiguity and = making the presence of floorctrl a MUST. Everyone does it already, but = it=E2=80=99s one of the most problematic fields for interop as it = is.
 
- Also, given in an = answer only one role is present, but in an offer multiple can be = present, can this be clearer in the ABNF? Is it possible to specify two = ABNFs, one for the offer and one for the answer (the answer being = without the *)? If that=E2=80=99s not possible, then could we at least = emphasise this point near the start of the section (again coming at this = from too many interop issues in this area).
 
[cue] = Christer seemed to agree with you. I have been a proponent of not = breaking backward compatibility with RFC 4583 unnecessarily. Anyone from = the original RFC 4583 days able to shed some light on = this?

I= agree with Christer here - it=E2=80=99s not a break in backward = compatibility to mandate it from a offerer's point of view in the new = spec, since this is all which is changing. An old answerer can cope. The = only issue is a new-spec-compliant answerer with an old receiver. To be = fully belt-and-braces here, the receiver should be able to cope without = one and infer it, but the sender MUST always send it.

BTW just to flag up my second point there was = unrelated to the first, which you answered=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m not sure = how best to present this information but I think it=E2=80=99s important = it=E2=80=99s clearer near the ABNF definition that multiple roles are = possible in an offer.


S6
 
- =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6identified by an SDP label = attribute=E2=80=9D. For consistency, please put =E2=80=98label=E2=80=99 = in single quotes.
 
[cue] good idea
 
- Why is mstrm: optional in the ABNF, and optional in = the paragraph beginning =E2=80=9CThe floorid attribute=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, = yet is mandatory in the =E2=80=9CEndpoints that use the = offer/answer=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D section? If there is a genuine reason for = it to be optional please specify this, however I think it would be = easier just to make it mandatory.
 
[cue] The floorid is defined such that = one can specify a floorid yet not associate it with any media stream, = thus the mstrm is optional. This is how it was defined in RFC 4583. I am = not sure if anyone makes use of this, but that is how it was = defined.

It = would be useful to understand what the use case is for this, but whether = or not it=E2=80=99s required the text is still inconsistent. "It defines = a floor identifier and, possibly, associates it with one or more media = streams.=E2=80=9D makes it sound optional, whereas "A floor control = server acting as an offerer or as an answerer MUST include these = attributes in its session descriptions.=E2=80=9D says =E2=80=9Cthese = attributes=E2=80=9D which I took to mean both label and floorid, and = once you=E2=80=99re including label the inference is that mstrm: should = be added.

I think it would be = beneficial to clarify one way or the other. Either mstrm: is a MUST, or = clarify why and how it could be used = optionally.



 
S11
 
Is is required to have a BUNDLE table like this now? = (I presume given draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-16 is in = MISSREF it=E2=80=99s too late to make the updates there). As Christer = mentioned, It think this would be better in S7. OR, a = separate subsection under S11 for =E2=80=9CBUNDLE Considerations=E2=80=9D = that makes it clearer that this is an update = to draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes-16.
 
[cue] = agreed
 
I assume we don=E2=80=99t want to go down the rabbit = hole of defining BUNDLE for BFCP at this stage? :-)  Since if we = did, it probably wouldn=E2=80=99t be too hard - you can demux on confid = + userid.
 
[cue] We decided previously to leave BUNDLE out of scope. I = am happy to keep it that way.
 
 
S14.2
 
The =E2=80=9CAllowed attribute values=E2=80= =9D here is inconsistent compared to others by being ABNF rather than = just =E2=80=9CA token=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CTokens=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s = also wrong - it implies only one value, not multiple as is the case. = Suggest either fixing the ABNF or saying =E2=80=9Cone or more of=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=9D or similar.
 
[cue] This is how it was defined in RFC = 4583. As I understand it, =E2=80=9C1*=E2=80=9D means it requires at = least one, so can have multiple.


Quite = right, brain fart :)

Regards,
Alan


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([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 13:02:59 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Christer Holmberg , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" CC: "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" , Roman Shpount , Alan Ford , "Gonzalo Camarillo" , "alan@pexip.com" Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] WGLC for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis - Christer's review Thread-Index: AdMCPCFSYamXLa2wSSi7CPCvHfiETwKoe+aAADrNo8AAhjZ3AA== Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 18:02:59 +0000 Message-ID: <1B5772E6-3408-4AD1-BA1D-3FC4091A6E22@cisco.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC93DD7@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CCAD68E@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CCAD68E@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.22.0.170515 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.20.182.35] Content-Type: 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<871507E1-51A7-4E9D-B29B-443E555E8AD0@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 09:52:44 +0100 Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" , Roman Shpount , Gonzalo Camarillo , Christer Holmberg Message-Id: References: <33AC90F8-1963-4F79-ACB2-0DB2873D5E34@cisco.com> <91583BC6-E5FD-42EC-8591-954ADE571577@gmail.com> <871507E1-51A7-4E9D-B29B-443E555E8AD0@cisco.com> To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 08:52:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CA191390-236E-4D29-8B84-5326FD36F544 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Charles, all, Inline=E2=80=A6 > On 7 Aug 2017, at 19:56, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) = wrote: >=20 > =20 > From: Alan Ford > > Date: Monday, August 7, 2017 at 1:37 AM > To: Charles Eckel > > Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org " >, Tom Kristensen >, Roman Shpount >, Gonzalo Camarillo = >, Christer Holmberg = > > Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis > =20 > Hi Charles, all,=20 > =20 > Further comments inline=E2=80=A6 > =20 >> On 3 Aug 2017, at 23:19, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > wrote: >> =20 >> Please see inline [cue] >> =20 >> From: Alan Ford > >> Date: Sunday, July 23, 2017 at 1:01 AM >> To: Charles Eckel > >> Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org " >, Tom Kristensen >, Roman Shpount >, Gonzalo Camarillo = >, Christer Holmberg = > >> Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis >> =20 >> Hi Charles, all,=20 >> =20 >> S3 >> =20 >> - TCP transport indent is hard to parse. Suggest changing sentence to = "Depending on the value of the 'setup' attribute (discussed in Section = 8.1), the port field contains either the port to which the remote = endpoint will direct BFCP messages, or in the case where the endpoint = will initiate the connection towards the remote endpoint, should be set = to a value of 9." >> =20 >> [cue] works for me >> =20 >> =20 >> S4.1 >> =20 >> - "The offerer includes this attribute to state all the roles it = would be willing to perform=E2=80=9D: add =E2=80=9Conce negotiation is = complete=E2=80=9D, for clarity. >> =20 >> [cue] good idea >> =20 >> - Here, plus S11.1 and S11.2, floorctrl is optional with inferred = state of c-only for an offerer if it is not specified. I would advocate = taking this opportunity to get rid of ambiguity and making the presence = of floorctrl a MUST. Everyone does it already, but it=E2=80=99s one of = the most problematic fields for interop as it is. >> =20 >> - Also, given in an answer only one role is present, but in an offer = multiple can be present, can this be clearer in the ABNF? Is it possible = to specify two ABNFs, one for the offer and one for the answer (the = answer being without the *)? If that=E2=80=99s not possible, then could = we at least emphasise this point near the start of the section (again = coming at this from too many interop issues in this area). >> =20 >> [cue] Christer seemed to agree with you. I have been a proponent of = not breaking backward compatibility with RFC 4583 unnecessarily. Anyone = from the original RFC 4583 days able to shed some light on this? > =20 > I agree with Christer here - it=E2=80=99s not a break in backward = compatibility to mandate it from a offerer's point of view in the new = spec, since this is all which is changing. An old answerer can cope. The = only issue is a new-spec-compliant answerer with an old receiver. To be = fully belt-and-braces here, the receiver should be able to cope without = one and infer it, but the sender MUST always send it. > =20 > [cue] Yes, you and Christer are correct about the backward = compatibility part. I had it wrong. > =20 > BTW just to flag up my second point there was unrelated to the first, = which you answered=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m not sure how best to present = this information but I think it=E2=80=99s important it=E2=80=99s clearer = near the ABNF definition that multiple roles are possible in an offer. > =20 > [cue] Section includes this example: > =20 > The following is an example of a 'floorctrl' attribute in an offer. > When this attribute appears in an answer, it only carries one role: > =20 > a=3Dfloorctrl:c-only s-only c-s > =20 > Do you think it would help if we added another role to one of the = offers in the examples in section 12? > e.g.=20 > The following is an example of an offer sent by a conference server > to a client. > =20 > m=3Dapplication 50000 TCP/TLS/BFCP * > a=3Dsetup:passive > a=3Dconnection:new > a=3Dfingerprint:sha-256 \ > 19:E2:1C:3B:4B:9F:81:E6:B8:5C:F4:A5:A8:D8:73:04: \ > BB:05:2F:70:9F:04:A9:0E:05:E9:26:33:E8:70:88:A2 > a=3Dfloorctrl:c-only s-only > =20 Yes, I think that would be beneficial. I would also propose adding the = following sentence directly after the ABNF in S4.1: =E2=80=9CThe offer = will include one or more roles in its offer; the answerer MUST include = only one role=E2=80=9D. (The section then goes on to describe why=E2=80=A6= But this is probably the top issue in BFCP interop I want to see it = totally clear). It may also be worth adding a final sentence that =E2=80=9C= If the answerer does not support any corresponding role, it MUST = zero-port the m-line=E2=80=9D. >> S6 >> =20 >> - =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6identified by an SDP label attribute=E2=80=9D. = For consistency, please put =E2=80=98label=E2=80=99 in single quotes. >> =20 >> [cue] good idea >> =20 >> - Why is mstrm: optional in the ABNF, and optional in the paragraph = beginning =E2=80=9CThe floorid attribute=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, yet is = mandatory in the =E2=80=9CEndpoints that use the offer/answer=E2=80=A6=E2=80= =9D section? If there is a genuine reason for it to be optional please = specify this, however I think it would be easier just to make it = mandatory. >> =20 >> [cue] The floorid is defined such that one can specify a floorid yet = not associate it with any media stream, thus the mstrm is optional. This = is how it was defined in RFC 4583. I am not sure if anyone makes use of = this, but that is how it was defined. > =20 > It would be useful to understand what the use case is for this, but = whether or not it=E2=80=99s required the text is still inconsistent. "It = defines a floor identifier and, possibly, associates it with one or more = media streams.=E2=80=9D makes it sound optional, whereas "A floor = control server acting as an offerer or as an answerer MUST include these = attributes in its session descriptions.=E2=80=9D says =E2=80=9Cthese = attributes=E2=80=9D which I took to mean both label and floorid, and = once you=E2=80=99re including label the inference is that mstrm: should = be added. > =20 > I think it would be beneficial to clarify one way or the other. Either = mstrm: is a MUST, or clarify why and how it could be used optionally. > =20 > [cue] I see now. If =E2=80=9Clabel=E2=80=9D is required it seems you = need at least one =E2=80=9Cmstrm=E2=80=9D, right? > So how about if we change as follows: > =20 > OLD : floor-id-attribute =3D "a=3Dfloorid:" token [" mstrm:" token = *(SP token)] > NEW: floor-id-attribute =3D "a=3Dfloorid:" token " mstrm:" token [*(SP = token)] > OLD: It defines a floor identifier and, possibly, associates it with = one or more media streams. > NEW: It defines a floor identifier and associates it with one or more = media streams. > =20 > Although I likely botched the ABNF. My issue is not so much that this is permitted without mstrm:, just that = it is inconsistent. I am not familiar with a scenario where it would be valid without mstrm: = =E2=80=A6 If there is one I have no problem with this being permitted, = but then I would suggest changing =E2=80=9CA floor control server acting = as an offerer or as an answerer MUST include these attributes in its = session descriptions.=E2=80=9D to be =E2=80=9CA floor control server = acting as an offerer or as an answerer MUST include the `floorid` = attribute, and the `label` attribute if using the `mstrm` parameter, in = its session descriptions.=E2=80=9D. If there must always be a mstrm: , then your proposal would be the = appropriate fix. One or the other - at the moment I think the text is a little confusing. Regards, Alan --Apple-Mail=_CA191390-236E-4D29-8B84-5326FD36F544 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi Charles, all,

Inline=E2=80=A6

On = 7 Aug 2017, at 19:56, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) <eckelcu@cisco.com> = wrote:

 
From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, August 7, 2017 = at 1:37 AM
To: Charles Eckel <eckelcu@cisco.com>
Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" <bfcpbis@ietf.org>, Tom = Kristensen <tomkrist@cisco.com>, Roman Shpount <rshpount@turbobridge.com>, = Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, Christer Holmberg = <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for = draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
 
Hi Charles, all, 
 
Further comments inline=E2=80=A6
 
On 3 = Aug 2017, at 23:19, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) <eckelcu@cisco.com> = wrote:
 
Please see inline [cue]
 
From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, July 23, 2017 = at 1:01 AM
To: Charles Eckel <eckelcu@cisco.com>
Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" <bfcpbis@ietf.org>, Tom Kristensen <tomkrist@cisco.com>, Roman Shpount <rshpount@turbobridge.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo = <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>, = Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] WGLC for = draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
 
Hi Charles, all, 
 
S3
 
- TCP transport = indent is hard to parse. Suggest changing sentence to "Depending on the = value of the 'setup' attribute (discussed in Section 8.1), the port = field contains either the port to which the remote endpoint will direct = BFCP messages, or in the case where the endpoint will initiate the = connection towards the remote endpoint, should be set to a value of = 9."
 
[cue] works for me
 
 
S4.1
 
- "The offerer = includes this attribute to state all the roles it would be willing to = perform=E2=80=9D: add =E2=80=9Conce negotiation is complete=E2=80=9D, = for clarity.
 
[cue] good idea
 
- Here, plus = S11.1 and S11.2, floorctrl is optional with inferred state of c-only for = an offerer if it is not specified. I would advocate taking this = opportunity to get rid of ambiguity and making the presence of floorctrl = a MUST. Everyone does it already, but it=E2=80=99s one of the most = problematic fields for interop as it is.
 
- Also, given in = an answer only one role is present, but in an offer multiple can be = present, can this be clearer in the ABNF? Is it possible to specify two = ABNFs, one for the offer and one for the answer (the answer being = without the *)? If that=E2=80=99s not possible, then could we at least = emphasise this point near the start of the section (again coming at this = from too many interop issues in this area).
 
[cue] Christer seemed to agree with = you. I have been a proponent of not breaking backward compatibility with = RFC 4583 unnecessarily. Anyone from the original RFC 4583 days able to = shed some light on this?
 
I agree with Christer here - it=E2=80=99s not a break = in backward compatibility to mandate it from a offerer's point of view = in the new spec, since this is all which is changing. An old answerer = can cope. The only issue is a new-spec-compliant answerer with an old = receiver. To be fully belt-and-braces here, the receiver should be able = to cope without one and infer it, but the sender MUST always send = it.
 
[cue] = Yes, you and Christer are correct about the backward compatibility part. = I had it wrong.
 
BTW just to flag up my second point there was = unrelated to the first, which you answered=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m not sure = how best to present this information but I think it=E2=80=99s important = it=E2=80=99s clearer near the ABNF definition that multiple roles are = possible in an offer.
 
[cue] Section includes this example:
 
   The following is an example of a 'floorctrl' = attribute in an offer.
   When this = attribute appears in an answer, it only carries one role:
 
          &nb= sp;  a=3Dfloorctrl:c-only s-only c-s
 
Do = you think it would help if we added another role to one of the offers in = the examples in section 12?
e.g. 
   The following is an example of an offer = sent by a conference server
   to a = client.
 
   = m=3Dapplication 50000 TCP/TLS/BFCP *
   a=3Dsetup:passive
   a=3Dconnection:new
   a=3Dfingerprint:sha-256 \
        = 19:E2:1C:3B:4B:9F:81:E6:B8:5C:F4:A5:A8:D8:73:04: \
        = BB:05:2F:70:9F:04:A9:0E:05:E9:26:33:E8:70:88:A2
   a=3Dfloorctrl:c-only s-only
 

Yes, I think that would be beneficial. I would = also propose adding the following sentence directly after the ABNF in = S4.1: =E2=80=9CThe offer will include one or more roles in its offer; = the answerer MUST include only one role=E2=80=9D. (The section then goes = on to describe why=E2=80=A6 But this is probably the top issue in BFCP = interop I want to see it totally clear). It may also be worth adding a = final sentence that =E2=80=9CIf the answerer does not support any = corresponding role, it MUST zero-port the m-line=E2=80=9D.

S6
 
- =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6identified by = an SDP label attribute=E2=80=9D. For consistency, please put =E2=80=98labe= l=E2=80=99 in single quotes.
 
[cue] good idea
 
- Why is mstrm: = optional in the ABNF, and optional in the paragraph beginning =E2=80=9CThe= floorid attribute=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, yet is mandatory in the = =E2=80=9CEndpoints that use the offer/answer=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D section? = If there is a genuine reason for it to be optional please specify this, = however I think it would be easier just to make it mandatory.
 
[cue] The floorid is defined such = that one can specify a floorid yet not associate it with any media = stream, thus the mstrm is optional. This is how it was defined in RFC = 4583. I am not sure if anyone makes use of this, but that is how it was = defined.
 
It would be useful to understand what the use case is for = this, but whether or not it=E2=80=99s required the text is still = inconsistent. "It defines a floor identifier and, possibly, associates = it with one or more media streams.=E2=80=9D makes it sound optional, = whereas "A floor control server acting as an offerer or as an answerer = MUST include these attributes in its session descriptions.=E2=80=9D says = =E2=80=9Cthese attributes=E2=80=9D which I took to mean both label and = floorid, and once you=E2=80=99re including label the inference is that = mstrm: should be added.
 
I think it would be beneficial to clarify one way or = the other. Either mstrm: is a MUST, or clarify why and = how it could be used optionally.
 
[cue] I see now. If =E2=80=9Clabel=E2=80=9D= is required it seems you need at least one =E2=80=9Cmstrm=E2=80=9D, = right?
So how about if we change as follows:
 
OLD = : floor-id-attribute =3D "a=3Dfloorid:" token [" mstrm:" token *(SP = token)]
NEW: floor-id-attribute =3D "a=3Dfloorid:" token " mstrm:" = token [*(SP token)]
OLD: It defines a floor identifier and, possibly, associates = it with one or more media streams.
NEW: It defines a floor identifier and = associates it with one or more media streams.
 
Although I likely botched the = ABNF.

My = issue is not so much that this is permitted without mstrm:, just that it = is inconsistent.

I am not familiar = with a scenario where it would be valid without mstrm: =E2=80=A6 If = there is one I have no problem with this being permitted, but then I = would suggest changing =E2=80=9CA floor control server acting as an = offerer or as an answerer MUST include these attributes in its session = descriptions.=E2=80=9D to be =E2=80=9CA floor control server acting as = an offerer or as an answerer MUST include the `floorid` attribute, and = the `label` attribute if using the `mstrm` parameter, in its session = descriptions.=E2=80=9D.

If there = must always be a mstrm: , then your proposal would be the appropriate = fix.

One or the other - at the = moment I think the text is a little confusing.

Regards,
Alan


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