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Mon, 1 Oct 2018 11:54:58 -0400 To: Christer Holmberg , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" References: <1B7CCF77-8173-44B3-8321-3A761C53AD43@ericsson.com> <3D819DDF-D384-4495-8C9E-3A784B335EA8@cisco.com> <66a5f9ad-7f8d-4655-1f27-5a6d6fd03088@alum.mit.edu> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <74b552e6-95ea-e081-bc67-1cce5f430c77@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 11:54:57 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmplleLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IRYndR1A123hRtsPEmn8W/dUeZLC7MPMzo wOTx6+tVNo8lS34yBTBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGV8O/GJqeAVe8Wlc/fZGxhPsnYxcnJICJhI PLuxgrGLkYtDSGAHk8TJX9NYIJwHTBIzGs4xg1QJC3hJrG87C9YhIpAm8fHCfqiOpUwS25/+ ZARJsAloScw59J8FxOYVsJc4OP0TWJxFQEXizqs7TCC2KFDz384ljBA1ghInZz4Bqufg4BRw kLi9PBIkzCxgJjFv80NmCFtc4taT+UwQtrzE9rdzmCcw8s9C0j0LScssJC2zkLQsYGRZxSiX mFOaq5ubmJlTnJqsW5ycmJeXWqRrrpebWaKXmlK6iRESqsI7GHedlDvEKMDBqMTDyyC/KVqI NbGsuDL3EKMkB5OSKK+eGFCILyk/pTIjsTgjvqg0J7X4EKMEB7OSCO9OkHLelMTKqtSifJiU NAeLkjgvs8neKCGB9MSS1OzU1ILUIpisDAeHkgRvgRNQo2BRanpqRVpmTglCmomDE2Q4D9Dw aSA1vMUFibnFmekQ+VOMlhx7vjbNYOZ4MaMDSLY9vT6DWYglLz8vVUqc1wCkQQCkIaM0D24m LPW8YhQHelGYlxGkigeYtuCmvgJayAS0sLF0A8jCkkSElFQD41rx//GTf757ZX/jn9IWmbgZ x5wlThz4YqrAHWH65EPespAXmafZrCxvNn59YKnbncJ141vdY45EObFjZldsTujwKtV2bstu lDNbXvH+77beK/L6giWzZnXel1daJ5+xNPe06tbr94qSxMIXrPebse/thBn2sYI/J+70u/x0 VsW0nXWi99m9rJVYijMSDbWYi4oTAZib7PQYAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Draft new version: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-25 X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2018 15:55:02 -0000 On 10/1/18 4:15 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Thanks for your comments! Please see inline. > > --- > >> * General comment: >> >> I have a slight preference for doing references to rules defined in >> other documents differently. E.g.: >> >> DIGIT = >> >> rather than: >> >> ;DIGIT is defined in [RFC5234] >> >> The advantage is that when mechanically verifying the SDP, the comment >> form results in an undefined symbol while the <> form doesn't. (No, I >> didn't mechanically verify the SDP this time.) > > Will fix as suggested. I did get some xml2rfc problems with the '<' and '>' characters, though, so for now I did: > > DIGIT = DIGIT defined in [RFC5234] The <> is explicit abnf syntax, and is the important part. You can fix this using < >, or using . Personally I always use CDATA for abnf. 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Mon, 1 Oct 2018 23:38:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.85.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Message-ID: <153846229283.22424.6216320932222378333@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2018 23:38:12 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26.txt X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2018 06:38:13 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Binary Floor Control Protocol Bis WG of the IETF. Title : Session Description Protocol (SDP) Format for Binary Floor Control Protocol (BFCP) Streams Authors : Gonzalo Camarillo Tom Kristensen Christer Holmberg Filename : draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2018-10-01 Abstract: This document defines the Session Description Protocol (SDP) offer/ answer procedures for negotiating and establishing Binary Floor Control Protocol (BFCP) streams. This document obsoletes RFC 4583. Changes from RFC 4583 are summarized in Section 14. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Tue, 2 Oct 2018 06:40:58 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft new version: 4583bis-26 Thread-Index: AdRaGrzOPzKFls3rSPmqV0el9ZdJfA== Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 06:40:58 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.75] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VI1PR07MB5261; 6:iLSEJJo2l5Qwz6r1+8slfYgP01OxHx9/BVbQTiZ31Ft1O96ccCf83Rp2SxK1dQ4xS5IYfm1FuRWRcjyukuan8GIwkyWq9ZcKRgd7Uh0AS3TUIm+RKg3dg7d6YuPJxF7gKLNSKU7ZSZxrYkwED5XUyKXirn+m5olFDo7zF0yfe/k6F1+yWdMnQEBFuXaPZRvbAoo1zXr1NEtHEgzCUa9WxJPB/hGLfTzVKwg899OR4KAqIBfOoCBqxAbtJ497TNOpunXwV7nYFSryargN1BHRT7PGE9c8DL8cJirMFcSZKc5AhVhHXfG3/bSrt4uOpzq+E97fEF3hVs2sIHoyobsi4xe/iEjIc4WHrrYgaAo6k95LDhZlbUdKsCpG0CXOkp1IC2rALHKebPK4PWLNVI1dpRPIuyNsiktygrVLz5+9YvO6fA1XAtm+O/ijGzofZjUHNHTvqgjck7ZzwmrNj6uXhQ==; 5:zJPEkopWLq2q3U0+lbNqfQp9Swt9f1CMq3JjZRqE8XZGg+zso76dzPPDGgJO5uRArwgh3kiAhNMAvHVm4aBWaBApkVOw4IdbkbVYh5v9HzufHrK7hJ5nK/99vlNjNLOIjv/bYN57a6WBsqEleO2uDSN4bUaIkiTLN+xdYaL/24I=; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d90c8048-ab70-4622-d62a-08d628320331 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Oct 2018 06:40:58.5483 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB5261 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7ue4foc3RBr+uylv8W3eUyYHRY8mS n0wBjFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGYtObGAsWMBYsbN7DVMDY1UXIyeHhICJRNOV56xdjFwcQgJH GSWmzn4F5XxllHiwsJMFwlnMJDHr40R2EIdFYAKzRM/Jg8wQmYlMEocv3mGCcB4ySuybvxto AAcHm4CFRPc/bZAlIgKaEpu332UCsYUF1CQ2bv7DChHXltjTc54RwtaTmPBtD5jNIqAi0fvr CpjNKxAj0fb0B1g9o4CYxPdTa8DmMAuIS9x6Mp8J4gkBiSV7zjND2KISLx//AztBQkBBYv/G IIiwrMSl+d2MIGdKCOxjl3h0p40RIqEr8WHqVKheX4lrjf1MEEXHGSV27VgBldCSWNT0gQni iESJ/aseQMWzJXY/+s8IU9NxZBbUQXISq3ofskAM2s8ssWLbeqiEjMTd5g5WqA2sEu/7X7NO YNSbheQjCFtHYsHuT2wQtrbEsoWvmWeBQ0NQ4uTMJywLGFlWMYoWpxYX56YbGeulFmUmFxfn 5+nlpZZsYgSmiYNbfuvuYFz92vEQowAHoxIPbzbb5mgh1sSy4srcQ4wSHMxKIrz/QzdFC/Gm JFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREufVW7UnSkggPbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cDYvWXfv4Te/N2i fx9pZ4R3OO85ImbLXrZ0x1FOpZpLq+xSfLSu396/Krry38KIs4kmtdo+rg1L18tM2dB5YGlf 3K6ERJsMiSlOtSu6a+823Yhd7XlHd0eOYLSyRQlv6JsLFfxrW4UTZ01QN9j27nZm51q1Gcl+ 1aJTYrMeBa9SyFSaPEG1L1uJpTgj0VCLuag4EQBjx7jADwMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Draft new version: 4583bis-26 X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2018 06:41:06 -0000 Hi, Based on the comments from Charles and Paul, I have merged a couple of pull= requests and submitted a new version of 4583bis. Regards, Christer From nobody Tue Oct 2 09:22:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546E5130E71 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2018 09:22:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tMCNVhkuwASH for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2018 09:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alum-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu (alum-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu [18.7.68.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F01130DC8 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2018 09:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1207440f-7a9ff70000000b27-80-5bb39b2d87a7 Received: from outgoing-alum.mit.edu (OUTGOING-ALUM.MIT.EDU [18.7.68.33]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by alum-mailsec-scanner-4.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 4F.4A.02855.E2B93BB5; Tue, 2 Oct 2018 12:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PaulKyzivatsMBP.localdomain (c-24-62-227-142.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.62.227.142]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id w92GM4DP030521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2018 12:22:05 -0400 To: bfcpbis@ietf.org References: <153846229283.22424.6216320932222378333@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 12:22:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <153846229283.22424.6216320932222378333@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixO6iqKs3e3O0waMrhhb/1h1lcmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxvOpygVL+SrenT7I3MD4k6uLkZNDQsBE4vzFJSxdjFwcQgI7 mCTaFt1iA0kICXxnktjQwwRiCwu4S0zePZ8FxBYREJHYMesiK0SNs8TGrffYQWw2AS2JOYf+ A9VwcPAK2EvceGIBEmYRUJG4vmErWImoQJrE384ljCA2r4CgxMmZT8BGcgq4SJycOg8szixg JjFv80NmCFtc4taT+UwQtrzE9rdzmCcw8s9C0j4LScssJC2zkLQsYGRZxSiXmFOaq5ubmJlT nJqsW5ycmJeXWqRropebWaKXmlK6iRESkPw7GLvWyxxiFOBgVOLhZZDfFC3EmlhWXJl7iFGS g0lJlJcnd3O0EF9SfkplRmJxRnxRaU5q8SFGCQ5mJRHevkSgHG9KYmVValE+TEqag0VJnJfV ZG+UkEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTFaGg0NJgvf3TKBGwaLU9NSKtMycEoQ0EwcnyHAeoOF7Z4AMLy5I zC3OTIfIn2LU5djztWkGsxBLXn5eqpQ4L/csoCIBkKKM0jy4ObBE8opRHOgtYd4IkCoeYBKC m/QKaAkT0JLG0g0gS0oSEVJSDYyMFte3GO/P1mzNWeZ/UfjjR3vZxR9UXglZW4c3RvwL7r53 yUpwM6uHyiyXkj8sdvO2xM/+vvWuW3jcMY7HPHXyKUv3PF+puGZ3CIdR8f9+ZVP3xTN9JTu7 vby+CEQ4bZU5qeTfJj5/bdTrN4/cZ7H7fGsQu8qTUma1pfeEzqU6y/r1LxqWqiuxFGckGmox FxUnAgDP8ZJI/wIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26.txt X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2018 16:22:10 -0000 This resolves my issues. Thanks, Paul On 10/2/18 2:38 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Binary Floor Control Protocol Bis WG of the IETF. > > Title : Session Description Protocol (SDP) Format for Binary Floor Control Protocol (BFCP) Streams > Authors : Gonzalo Camarillo > Tom Kristensen > Christer Holmberg > Filename : draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26.txt > Pages : 23 > Date : 2018-10-01 > > Abstract: > This document defines the Session Description Protocol (SDP) offer/ > answer procedures for negotiating and establishing Binary Floor > Control Protocol (BFCP) streams. > > This document obsoletes RFC 4583. Changes from RFC 4583 are > summarized in Section 14. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > bfcpbis mailing list > bfcpbis@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis > From nobody Tue Oct 2 12:09:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 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7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.85.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org, adam@nostrum.com, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <153860308405.9128.5896153939386956052.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 14:44:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Last Call: (Session Description Protocol (SDP) Format for Binary Floor Control Protocol (BFCP) Streams) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:44:57 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Binary Floor Control Protocol Bis WG (bfcpbis) to consider the following document: - 'Session Description Protocol (SDP) Format for Binary Floor Control Protocol (BFCP) Streams' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-10-17. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document defines the Session Description Protocol (SDP) offer/ answer procedures for negotiating and establishing Binary Floor Control Protocol (BFCP) streams. This document obsoletes RFC 4583. Changes from RFC 4583 are summarized in Section 14. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Thu Oct 18 11:37:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CEE31286D9; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 11:36:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Pete Resnick To: Cc: bfcpbis@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153988781132.22176.3648266052386529933@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 11:36:51 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 18:36:52 -0000 Reviewer: Pete Resnick Review result: Ready with Issues I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 Reviewer: Pete Resnick Review Date: 2018-10-18 IETF LC End Date: 2018-10-17 IESG Telechat date: 2018-10-25 Summary: Ready, but one issue with the IANA Considerations section. I reviewed the diff with 4583. The changes were easily understandable and the improvements were obvious. Well done. No major issues at all. I think section 13 isn't as clear as it ought to be, but not a showstopper. A couple of nits noted. Major issues: None. Minor issues: 13: I found this section confusing. You could just explain this interactively with IANA, as I suspect they will find it confusing too, but I'd suggest: - Where you need to have IANA do something new, identify that to IANA as "IANA is requested to register...", replacing "This document defines" in 13.6. - For the remainder, identify those with "IANA has registered...", replacing "This document defined" in 13.2 through 13.5. You can put a parenthetical note next to each one that says, "No new IANA action requested here" This all gets cleaned up by the RFC Editor anyway, but the whole idea of the IANA Considerations is to make it clear what IANA needs to do, not format the section for what it should look like when published. Finally, I don't see a need for the "contact iesg@ietf.org" bit. This is going to be a standards track document, and that is always the case for standards track documents. Nits/editorial comments: 5.1: - Table 1 contains "c-s", but it has not yet been explained. I would move it below the subsequent paragraph. - In the paragraph that begins, "Endpoints compliant with [RFC4583]", the comma in the second sentence belongs after "present", not "client". 5.2: - In the section title, s/Attributes/Attribute From nobody Sun Oct 21 11:47:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8DED130E90; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:47:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.064, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from 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DQogICAgDQogICAgDQogICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18NCiAgICBiZmNwYmlzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIGJmY3BiaXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcN CiAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2JmY3BiaXMNCiAgICAN Cg0K From nobody Tue Oct 23 07:44:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7631B128D09; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 07:44:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alexey Melnikov To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154030585039.31329.18322462801147959846.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 07:44:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:11 -0000 Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have one small issue with this document which applies to several sections: 5.2. SDP 'confid' Attributes The Augmented BNF syntax [RFC5234] for the attribute is: conference-id = 1*DIGIT Is there any limit on the maximum allowed value of this attribute? The same issue in all the following sections where "1*DIGIT" construct is used: 5.3. SDP 'userid' Attribute 5.4. SDP 'floorid' Attribute 5.5. SDP 'bfcpver' Attribute From nobody Tue Oct 23 10:56:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 603A912F295; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:56:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tkhbjg0WZmIL; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F0E41274D0; 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d="scan'208";a="470534463" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Oct 2018 17:56:34 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (xch-rcd-020.cisco.com [173.37.102.30]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w9NHuYL4013084 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:56:34 GMT Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:56:33 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com ([173.36.7.28]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:56:33 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Alexey Melnikov , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" , "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUat7eI+OR1/BlNUK3zXdGiyQsy6Us/DCA Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:56:32 +0000 Message-ID: <61BE0678-922A-4E73-BBCA-0CFAC21000B7@cisco.com> References: <154030585039.31329.18322462801147959846.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154030585039.31329.18322462801147959846.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.168.204] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <0ADC6C3D3282924EB7C737CF76F2571B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.30, xch-rcd-020.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:56:39 -0000 SGkgQWxleGV5LA0KDQpUaGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIHlvdXIgcmV2aWV3IGFuZCBjb21tZW50cy4NClRo ZSBtYXhpbXVtIHZhbHVlIGZvciBlYWNoIG9mIHRoZXNlIGlzIGRldGVybWluZWQgYnkgdGhlIENP TU1PTi1IRUFERVIgZm9ybWF0IGluIGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1p ZXRmLWJmY3BiaXMtcmZjNDU4MmJpcy0xNiNzZWN0aW9uLTUuMS4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KQ2hhcmxl cw0KDQrvu78tLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogQWxleGV5IE1lbG5pa292 IDxhYW1lbG5pa292QGZhc3RtYWlsLmZtPg0KRGF0ZTogVHVlc2RheSwgT2N0b2JlciAyMywgMjAx OCBhdCAzOjQ0IFBNDQpUbzogVGhlIElFU0cgPGllc2dAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpDYzogImRyYWZ0LWll dGYtYmZjcGJpcy1yZmM0NTgzYmlzQGlldGYub3JnIiA8ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1iZmNwYmlzLXJmYzQ1 ODNiaXNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+LCAiYmZjcGJpcy1jaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmciIDxiZmNwYmlzLWNoYWly c0BpZXRmLm9yZz4sIE1hcnkgQmFybmVzIDxtYXJ5LmlldGYuYmFybmVzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4sICJi ZmNwYmlzQGlldGYub3JnIiA8YmZjcGJpc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4NClN1YmplY3Q6IEFsZXhleSBNZWxu aWtvdidzIE5vIE9iamVjdGlvbiBvbiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWJmY3BiaXMtcmZjNDU4M2Jpcy0yNjog KHdpdGggQ09NTUVOVCkNClJlc2VudC1Gcm9tOiA8YWxpYXMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4NClJl c2VudC1UbzogQ2hhcmxlcyBFY2tlbCA8ZWNrZWxjdUBjaXNjby5jb20+LCBLZWl0aCBEcmFnZSA8 ZHJhZ2VrZUBudGx3b3JsZC5jb20+DQpSZXNlbnQtRGF0ZTogVHVlc2RheSwgT2N0b2JlciAyMywg MjAxOCBhdCAzOjQ0IFBNDQoNCiAgICBBbGV4ZXkgTWVsbmlrb3YgaGFzIGVudGVyZWQgdGhlIGZv bGxvd2luZyBiYWxsb3QgcG9zaXRpb24gZm9yDQogICAgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1iZmNwYmlzLXJmYzQ1 ODNiaXMtMjY6IE5vIE9iamVjdGlvbg0KICAgIA0KICAgIFdoZW4gcmVzcG9uZGluZywgcGxlYXNl IGtlZXAgdGhlIHN1YmplY3QgbGluZSBpbnRhY3QgYW5kIHJlcGx5IHRvIGFsbA0KICAgIGVtYWls IGFkZHJlc3NlcyBpbmNsdWRlZCBpbiB0aGUgVG8gYW5kIENDIGxpbmVzLiAoRmVlbCBmcmVlIHRv IGN1dCB0aGlzDQogICAgaW50cm9kdWN0b3J5IHBhcmFncmFwaCwgaG93ZXZlci4pDQogICAgDQog ICAgDQogICAgUGxlYXNlIHJlZmVyIHRvIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2llc2cvc3RhdGVt ZW50L2Rpc2N1c3MtY3JpdGVyaWEuaHRtbA0KICAgIGZvciBtb3JlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGFib3V0 IElFU0cgRElTQ1VTUyBhbmQgQ09NTUVOVCBwb3NpdGlvbnMuDQogICAgDQogICAgDQogICAgVGhl IGRvY3VtZW50LCBhbG9uZyB3aXRoIG90aGVyIGJhbGxvdCBwb3NpdGlvbnMsIGNhbiBiZSBmb3Vu ZCBoZXJlOg0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYt YmZjcGJpcy1yZmM0NTgzYmlzLw0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0N CiAgICBDT01NRU5UOg0KICAgIC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCiAgICANCiAgICBJIGhhdmUgb25lIHNt YWxsIGlzc3VlIHdpdGggdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCB3aGljaCBhcHBsaWVzIHRvIHNldmVyYWwgc2Vj dGlvbnM6DQogICAgDQogICAgNS4yLiAgU0RQICdjb25maWQnIEF0dHJpYnV0ZXMNCiAgICANCiAg ICAgICAgICAgVGhlIEF1Z21lbnRlZCBCTkYgc3ludGF4IFtSRkM1MjM0XSBmb3IgdGhlIGF0dHJp YnV0ZSBpczoNCiAgICANCiAgICAgICAgICAgICBjb25mZXJlbmNlLWlkID0gMSpESUdJVA0KICAg IA0KICAgIElzIHRoZXJlIGFueSBsaW1pdCBvbiB0aGUgbWF4aW11bSBhbGxvd2VkIHZhbHVlIG9m IHRoaXMgYXR0cmlidXRlPw0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIFRoZSBzYW1lIGlzc3VlIGluIGFsbCB0 aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHNlY3Rpb25zIHdoZXJlICIxKkRJR0lUIiBjb25zdHJ1Y3QgaXMgdXNlZDoN CiAgICANCiAgICA1LjMuICBTRFAgJ3VzZXJpZCcgQXR0cmlidXRlDQogICAgDQogICAgNS40LiAg U0RQICdmbG9vcmlkJyBBdHRyaWJ1dGUNCiAgICANCiAgICA1LjUuICBTRFAgJ2JmY3B2ZXInIEF0 dHJpYnV0ZQ0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Oct 23 20:11:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84794128CFD; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:11:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ben Campbell To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:11:40 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 03:11:41 -0000 Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the work on this document. I have one item that I want to make sure is discussed prior to publication, thus the DISCUSS position: This document lists all the SDP attributes as having an a Mux Category of "TBD". draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did indeed assign a category of "TBD" to all the attributes, save for bfcpver, which didn't exist at the time. But the point of "TBD" was to say that draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not actually analyze the attributes to determine a "real" mux category. It's not intended as free pass to let other attribute definitions skip that analysis. Ideally, I think that this draft should assign a "real" mux category for each attribute in it. Failing that, it at least needs to do so for "bfcpver". I'm guessing that should be "caution" or "special". (Perhaps unfortunately, draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not define a category of "nope" :-) ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- *** Substantive Comments *** §4: "The fmt (format) list is not applicable to BFCP. The fmt list of ’m’ lines in the case of any proto field value related to BFCP MUST contain a single "*" character. If the the fmt list contains any other value it is ignored." It seems like the last sentence should use a MUST to match the one in the previous sentence. *** Editorial Comments *** §3: "Typically, a client that establishes a BFCP stream with a conference server will act as a floor control client, while the conference server will act as a floor control server." The use of "typically" seems odd without a discussion of when it might not. Perhaps a forward reference to section 7 would help? §6: "[I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes] defines the mux categories for the SDP attributes defined in this specification. Table 2 defines the mux category for the ’bfcpver’ attribute:" I assume the first sentence should say "... except for bfcpver."? §10, 3rd paragraph: Incorrect comma use in "... SDP), in ..." §10.1, last paragraph: "... value, in the offer, ...": The first comma is incorrect. §10.3: First paragraph: "When the offerer receives an answer, which contains an ’m’ line..." s/ ", which" / "that" §16.2: It seems like [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes] should be a normative reference. From nobody Tue Oct 23 20:22:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93C912D4EE; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:22:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J_Q07ck5NcLl; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AB37128CFD; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.attlocal.net (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9O3MhFN093232 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:22:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.attlocal.net To: Ben Campbell , The IESG Cc: bfcpbis@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org References: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <02154bdb-ef66-d30b-82af-f650fe7d8f7c@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:22:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 03:22:51 -0000 On 10/23/18 10:11 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > Ideally, I think that this draft should assign a "real" mux category for each > attribute in it. Failing that, it at least needs to do so for "bfcpver". I'm > guessing that should be "caution" or "special". (Perhaps unfortunately, > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not define a category of "nope":-) ) Right. My reading of this was that these attributes must not be multiplexed. And the only category that the SDP mux attributes document defined for "do not multiplex" was "TBD". Are you proposing that this document define a new MUX category that says "do not multiplex"? Or merely that it says that the category is "special," and that the special considerations are "do not multiplex"? /a From nobody Tue Oct 23 20:39:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6154130DDA; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:39:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PiuUzZhNIgmV; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC3E212D4F2; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.27] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9O3dTxM095724 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:39:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.27] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_467B7E31-8AA1-4B2C-B48E-13AA79B5C443"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:39:29 -0500 In-Reply-To: <02154bdb-ef66-d30b-82af-f650fe7d8f7c@nostrum.com> Cc: The IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org To: Adam Roach References: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02154bdb-ef66-d30b-82af-f650fe7d8f7c@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 03:39:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_467B7E31-8AA1-4B2C-B48E-13AA79B5C443 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 23, 2018, at 10:22 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > On 10/23/18 10:11 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> Ideally, I think that this draft should assign a "real" mux category = for each >> attribute in it. Failing that, it at least needs to do so for = "bfcpver". I'm >> guessing that should be "caution" or "special". (Perhaps = unfortunately, >> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not define a category of = "nope":-) ) >=20 >=20 > Right. My reading of this was that these attributes must not be = multiplexed. And the only category that the SDP mux attributes document = defined for "do not multiplex" was "TBD". Are you proposing that this = document define a new MUX category that says "do not multiplex=E2=80=9D? Not really; I=E2=80=99m just kind of wishing that mux-attributes had = done so. =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D does mean =E2=80=9Cdo not multiplex=E2=80=9D= , but it has connotations that this is because we haven=E2=80=99t gotten = around to determining if it is safe, not that we have determined that it = is unsafe. > Or merely that it says that the category is "special," and that the = special considerations are "do not multiplex=E2=80=9D? That=E2=80=99s one approach. There=E2=80=99s also =E2=80=9Ccaution=E2=80=9D= , which means something to the effect of =E2=80=9Cyou really shouldn=E2=80= =99t multiplex this=E2=80=9D. >=20 > /a >=20 --Apple-Mail=_467B7E31-8AA1-4B2C-B48E-13AA79B5C443 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlvP6XEACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A2xjQ/+Lb81/R+2ub4d+iu/HeYJcaJktGjgcZ969UkzVLhg236TNmrAaznnX0ZM LKzXN6XepXh+UT+06O+ckMj9JW39kb5xwmtIsNmQq7P69N/MWbQOG2uoQDtXQFcS cgsERRRo4mTNJ1E6mL1X6WS7F0b1yraZyrqmWgRHKlkHDkE9jud+yVl9wmpmRfgj edHoCahxJDYBlMgWaUGSf8DoyPHZwcr1khblTj7QTSViB3H0/d3XBuImweDg36C/ oMABJRjDEK1puH/Uet9pM2DQ3/UU7/nr+oiSeKCzN9avVBuS1So1gq0yAoZPgAsA jolAkJ5za2kC+2dVX8jyoKL8KJiU9IGvHOdtKFDQq27JTRD7fy/KFYHDk4YNy4Zk 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draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:31:58 -0000 SGksDQoNCkkgYW0gbm90IHN1cmUgSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0ICJUQkQiIGlzIGEgZnJlZSBwYXNzLg0K DQpUaGUgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBvZiAiVEJEIiBpczoNCg0KIlRoZSBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzIGluIHRoZSBU QkQgY2F0ZWdvcnkgaGF2ZSBub3QgYmVlbiBhbmFseXplZCB1bmRlciB0aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQgbXVs dGlwbGV4aW5nIGZyYW1ld29yayBhbmQgU0hPVUxEIE5PVCBiZSBtdWx0aXBsZXhlZC4iDQoNCk5v dywgdGhlIFdHIGRlY2lkZWQsIGFzIGlzIHJlZmxlY3RlZCBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDYsIHRoYXQgd2Ug YXJlIG5vdCBnb2luZyB0byBkZWZpbmUgaG93IEJGQ1Agc3RyZWFtcyBhcmUgbXVsdGlwbGV4ZWQv YnVuZGxlZCBpbiB0aGlzIHNwZWMsIGFuZCB0aGF0IGZ1cnRoZXIgYW5hbHlzaXMgd291bGQgYmUg bmVlZGVkIGluIGEgc2VwYXJhdGUgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbi4gT25lIGNvdWxkIG9mIGNvdXJzZSBj 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[IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF1F12D4F0; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 02:26:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154037321685.6923.4721888028463067258.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 02:26:56 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Alissa Cooper's Yes on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:26:57 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Glad to see this document getting published! I support Ben's DISCUSS. From nobody Wed Oct 24 02:29:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D43130DD3; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 02:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=Pl2Z3m/n; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=WKUJlBYz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGGqHbX27YE7; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 02:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B116712958B; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 02:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084081226; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 05:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 05:29:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=2 wdF9nqoPs44JS+99VkF6GpSegvrZtLcM+cm/0M/F34=; b=Pl2Z3m/nzpCFaUaRh 3+FAlfu2xtCZM2e8rZHs+/+FNSzp3dEIavNfa1wFRC6toxspKqojKH4EVz3xtBXP Yh7CV7etOui3CQobTBGH5jpGpmWNrbEeLeBPrOgY7VmmEBu4sNBJ4CrVTuoz76KJ GeKVO2a3FwLUrxH+24aZzSjUtWWNdjnEFIwuwqMJgRXZ1cSZPSbD57DW8H1Cv98A 2wmo5kUn0Xh7vviny5NGNKH68Pe2NsVvHPZsmFvjhbzH5IICGyWFkOrWlthWesnk 8RcuaIYCLd91l45+MskLEyCfrfQ31GU1x6+VOSFsz9zAoSeXFXtO8Mjv0VqjOhFL LOzJw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=2wdF9nqoPs44JS+99VkF6GpSegvrZtLcM+cm/0M/F 34=; b=WKUJlBYzRn6Mu1XnXKFRCDqwbz2gIfWEIT5gZIlFSgWIR3GkNFIBMtoYE 6/Y2w34iDzv3jiuBRT9avustknUkwcIVQfYJqlQDw0/KXE1X8T7E7yecyLr3brSM 5UNw5GPAOUk7FtelZwiwcwD8Glrq/iTaJoWCqjBcCB+bSnhCRzyY/b6cr0L+S8lt SsaVRc2qzZa/FFUBsm4fOtDi7W+b2OKFocxmqgXbYRKgCQQUbSLa51EZj9aHoV+q OfZwnLrxi2eGr1I2l3N1k0g1pwA+jOdRjnHctDwaLfwnFA5OzeZ339rgK6yp3jte cJ/laH1jd3DX+Uf9l/ZW3EQnCWkTg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-vpn3-681.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.81]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 38059102A0; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 05:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:29:03 +0200 Cc: Pete Resnick , "gen-art@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis.all@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7A19E046-04E5-4A52-915A-575A2EF66AEB@cooperw.in> References: <153988781132.22176.3648266052386529933@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] [Gen-art] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:29:12 -0000 Pete, thanks for your review. Charles, thanks for your responses. I have = entered a Yes ballot. Alissa > On Oct 21, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) = wrote: >=20 > HI Pete, >=20 > Thank you for this careful review. Please see comments inline [cue]. >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: bfcpbis on behalf of Pete Resnick = > Date: Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 8:36 PM > To: "gen-art@ietf.org" > Cc: "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" = , "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis.all@ietf.org" = > Subject: [bfcpbis] Genart last call review of = draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 >=20 > Reviewer: Pete Resnick > Review result: Ready with Issues >=20 > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just > like any other last call comments. >=20 > For more information, please see the FAQ at >=20 > . >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26 > Reviewer: Pete Resnick > Review Date: 2018-10-18 > IETF LC End Date: 2018-10-17 > IESG Telechat date: 2018-10-25 >=20 > Summary: Ready, but one issue with the IANA Considerations section. >=20 > I reviewed the diff with 4583. The changes were easily = understandable and the > improvements were obvious. Well done. No major issues at all. I = think section > 13 isn't as clear as it ought to be, but not a showstopper. A = couple of nits > noted. >=20 > Major issues: None. >=20 > Minor issues: >=20 > 13: I found this section confusing. You could just explain this = interactively > with IANA, as I suspect they will find it confusing too, but I'd = suggest: >=20 > - Where you need to have IANA do something new, identify that to = IANA as "IANA > is requested to register...", replacing "This document defines" in = 13.6. >=20 > - For the remainder, identify those with "IANA has registered...", = replacing > "This document defined" in 13.2 through 13.5. You can put a = parenthetical note > next to each one that says, "No new IANA action requested here" >=20 > This all gets cleaned up by the RFC Editor anyway, but the whole = idea of the > IANA Considerations is to make it clear what IANA needs to do, not = format the > section for what it should look like when published. >=20 > [cue] Good catch, and spot on. The IANA review raised these exact = questions, to which we provided the clarifications you suggested. >=20 > Finally, I don't see a need for the "contact iesg@ietf.org" bit. = This is going > to be a standards track document, and that is always the case for = standards > track documents. >=20 > [cue] Will check with RFC editor about removing this. >=20 > Nits/editorial comments: >=20 > 5.1: >=20 > - Table 1 contains "c-s", but it has not yet been explained. I = would move it > below the subsequent paragraph.=09 >=20 > [cue] Good idea. >=20 > - In the paragraph that begins, "Endpoints compliant with = [RFC4583]", the comma > in the second sentence belongs after "present", not "client". >=20 > [cue] Yes, thanks. >=20 > 5.2: >=20 > - In the section title, s/Attributes/Attribute >=20 > [cue] Yes, thanks. >=20 > Cheers, > Charles >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > bfcpbis mailing list > bfcpbis@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Gen-art mailing list > Gen-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art From nobody Wed Oct 24 03:02:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49993130E72; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 03:02:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=bW4T2VUF; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=c5DiSv8X Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nYIItv7daGQj; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 03:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0FF9127148; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 03:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A749E1376; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:02:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=k /0Hec+egtgiRu1aOHkcUOz+8OMOkchdOOz1Bw7reyQ=; b=bW4T2VUFYD95xatJK zX4JiO2xDEvc5zEQxNBkP/su2VHlBIU763tjzScmB/EoOgzR1BcovDJEkuEplweU vUPXPV1wV+rqL/lAzM6Ef/3+nLxSInIfYh2DP+CiScXG3rqIvzezLe9FZvP2dpRc 9lkACi9wz7W0FUAddx0MPeawSfZ7oYq/UNqw0J1sItMkgOCM/MFqQl/dIHkdhRJV c5r/KarAse7WAn0tmbW55OMqlhN6d8/kFn+wYhTXMILG0GAjn+kGLD/iHwRENQSM ajM+p+tlNUp7IKla6AIggiKifnE0zzWFWgBVaZ7s8lAlFDG4ASaArejDGIPPNW5j OdoXA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=k/0Hec+egtgiRu1aOHkcUOz+8OMOkchdOOz1Bw7re yQ=; b=c5DiSv8XZpfOaoTnufrpYRertEUKL9DTxCynA7PG4Ej84foLYNHWPDZ8+ o4oS7tXAoAY7hnhJWUeqnxRTIp/8jIH1LsidWzOLQ3hkPjklv1d1EYdXjGzny9x2 A3upecrQ1qjjc2NUGVDsgAGDueDT9Obk/DMfQi2lbFSIKQXAJgOoOgvpNMHNrvXC AB0YbIs8KHpgghfabhq/GzxoWEI2vFCoZxmz3ahiU8bHfC1flcIuXgP+QtX4e/4G cjK8SM2OEmD6FHOyPmSTDjvr0k12MfzGLA/2jNMj1Pb8cbSmIg0aFKThIzhJWAnK sr42x7f6/maUt8hkOe3OGJBMZH0pQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [10.0.133.184] (unknown [85.255.234.186]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 867B3102F2; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15G77) In-Reply-To: <61BE0678-922A-4E73-BBCA-0CFAC21000B7@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:02:12 +0100 Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" , "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <154030585039.31329.18322462801147959846.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <61BE0678-922A-4E73-BBCA-0CFAC21000B7@cisco.com> To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 10:02:19 -0000 Hi Charles, > On 23 Oct 2018, at 18:56, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrot= e: >=20 > Hi Alexey, >=20 > Thank you for your review and comments. > The maximum value for each of these is determined by the COMMON-HEADER for= mat in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-16#section-= 5.1. I think adding a cross reference would help readers/implementors. Best Regards, Alexey > Cheers, > Charles >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: Alexey Melnikov > Date: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 3:44 PM > To: The IESG > Cc: "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" , Mary Barne= s , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" > Subject: Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-2= 6: (with COMMENT) > Resent-From: > Resent-To: Charles Eckel , Keith Drage > Resent-Date: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 3:44 PM >=20 > Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: No Objection >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this= > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht= ml > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I have one small issue with this document which applies to several sect= ions: >=20 > 5.2. SDP 'confid' Attributes >=20 > The Augmented BNF syntax [RFC5234] for the attribute is: >=20 > conference-id =3D 1*DIGIT >=20 > Is there any limit on the maximum allowed value of this attribute? >=20 >=20 > The same issue in all the following sections where "1*DIGIT" construct i= s used: >=20 > 5.3. SDP 'userid' Attribute >=20 > 5.4. SDP 'floorid' Attribute >=20 > 5.5. SDP 'bfcpver' Attribute >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Oct 24 04:03:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36ACE130DC3; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 04:03:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=GKstYLMk; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=APANeWyZ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RPoPKr8tY2qt; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 04:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C55A2130DC2; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 04:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D41C2C; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:03:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=y KsHLr6Bp8BeBmvoLXpYMELwWFmUbsjLkhXxK6851AI=; b=GKstYLMkIrAvPxtKU e4R4Zm5tipcdR/d2/ezU7Bch4vFBaAU/Rbw+veAFfeCn6TEKFYnJthptgsLPW+e5 AZ/r6Ndgy9ZqHgsrpqtmvbV4TbANEsrKHoaLZHxPlgJ3XfJtB1E15IcBCpmjhlsP LdA9xyQX5fGCucL6Os2HY8xObg6ifPTRTcaalOivHFzCUKlFa99Jt6nmCFLhsHq2 zVNroqyUnAYGf0SJ9Cef31yPPr+/2rXqzLf8x1Y9rzqOpNVoW36rwQdnWbGcmuMm eUqa89H3y6H0KV8AFb00KK9AeYUJKgQkGH6ucWWtEuGuYJcPvho0t27ecoDbBexo LvCDg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=yKsHLr6Bp8BeBmvoLXpYMELwWFmUbsjLkhXxK6851 AI=; b=APANeWyZ1ceJPm8qyXpH+Hn4y2yeJHIjaHtuxS++DW9pWt0NkaX7oe7jJ hyYqc7SDQnVOCOswPITOK+FuYuflXfiG5Ml2r1uoYDeBd0L+nK173EWqKb04XK/p N9plTdyjo/m1jjE4gY+yPvQiEP355h0XUAry6H/1qA+8YVf2tFyUpKKcaUd0p5cg 0frb5KdvdeGU2ZHiW7uEPibX+gFjpbBotVgxrEbG97IFNTY8Y3kJpJ1VlU0DTiEl hKeoXcbHWCBQTBxgcLVp1dHI6hXb+4ISlB01E8DJA0hWQVSln9LRUqzLGWWtNGtm NGMaejmmkmzctfDER2aEx/LB3FQQg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-vpn3-681.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.81]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 17FB7102ED; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:03:11 +0200 Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Ben Campbell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:03:18 -0000 > On Oct 24, 2018, at 5:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 > Ideally, I think that this draft should assign a "real" mux category = for each > attribute in it. Failing that, it at least needs to do so for = "bfcpver". I'm > guessing that should be "caution" or "special". (Perhaps = unfortunately, > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not define a category of = "nope" :-) ) Maybe it should? Now that seems like an unfortunate omission. Alissa= From nobody Wed Oct 24 07:51:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6237512785F; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:51:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154039268936.6939.17214783198090812411.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:51:29 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:51:29 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) Section 4: „This is one of the options when ICE is used (Section 9).“ Maybe you can make this sentence slightly more specific because that was one thing I was wondering about all the time until I read 9 (why TCP/DTLS/BFCP is needed), e.g. „This is one of the options where when ICE is used only one DTLS session is established but there are candidate pairs for UDP and TCP (Section 9).“ Also why is 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' not called 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP‘? 2) Section 6 provides multiplexing considerations for bfcpver, however all other attributes also have a Mux Category: TBD. When will these be defined? 3) Section 7.1: Sorry for the lack of understanding here, but why does the reconnecting endpoint need to send a new offer at all, instead of just re-opening a new TCP connection with the same parameters as before? 4) Section 8: „If the TCP connection is lost, the active endpoint is responsible for re- establishing the TCP connection.“ What does active mean here? Also in section 10.2 and 10.3 'active' is used a well but with quotes, however, it is never really defined. 5) Section 8: „Unless a new TLS session is negotiated, subsequent SDP offers and answers will not impact the previously negotiated TLS roles.“ Quick question: Does that mean that when the TCP connection breaks and is re-opened, there is no new TLS handshake? 6) Section 10.4: „if the offerer does not want to re-establish an existing TCP connection, the offerer MUST associate an SDP 'connection' attribute with a value of "existing", with the 'm' line;“ Just double-checking: Is this correct that If the offerer does NOT what to use the existing TCP connection, it adds the „existing“ attribute…? 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(raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60E681286E7; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.27] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9OGKN6p026283 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:20:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.27] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <7A716789-DFD1-4D5D-9225-5DFFFE4A740D@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C40EE2DD-21B9-4F13-9401-7FCBCB55FD02"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:20:22 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Adam Roach , The IESG , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" , "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" To: Christer Holmberg References: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02154bdb-ef66-d30b-82af-f650fe7d8f7c@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:20:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C40EE2DD-21B9-4F13-9401-7FCBCB55FD02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On a re-read of mux-attributes, I=E2=80=99m going to have to partially = agree and partially disagree with Christer :-) Mux-attributes does use =E2=80=9CTBD" for attributes for protocols that = have no specification for how to multiplex, and includes explicit notes = to that effect. I find this counter-intuitive, and counter to the = definition of TBD that Christer cited. Saying that attributes have not = been analyzed is very different from saying the related protocol = doesn=E2=80=99t specify multiplexing. In the latter case, it seems more = reasonable to say that we _have_ analyzed the attribute and decided you = shouldn=E2=80=99t bundle it. The definition for CAUTION includes an example of a protocol that cannot = be multiplexed, so that seem more fitting. But CAUTION is also a bit = counter-intuitive. An additional issue is that the only change that 4566bis allows for = existing mux-category registrations is to change it from TBD to = something else. That seems makes TBD the only choice for non mux-able = protocols unless we want to prevent any future revision from becoming = mux-able. So at this point, I can=E2=80=99t really say that 4583bis is using TBD = incorrectly because it follows the practice, if not the definition, from = mux-attributes. I would like to get some clarification of the intent in = mux-attributes; We should probably include MMUSIC in this discussion; I = will send a separate email there that summarized the issue for people = for people who haven=E2=80=99t followed this thread. On a related note, I noticed that mux-attributes defines all of the = existing BFCP related attributes as =E2=80=9CNORMAL=E2=80=9D except for = floorctrl, which is =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D. 4583bis lists them all as = =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D. Which is correct? Thanks! Ben. > On Oct 24, 2018, at 3:31 AM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I am not sure I agree that "TBD" is a free pass. >=20 > The definition of "TBD" is: >=20 > "The attributes in the TBD category have not been analyzed under the = proposed multiplexing framework and SHOULD NOT be multiplexed." >=20 > Now, the WG decided, as is reflected in Section 6, that we are not = going to define how BFCP streams are multiplexed/bundled in this spec, = and that further analysis would be needed in a separate specification. = One could of course claim that the decision not to define multiplexing = was done based on an analysis __ >=20 > I don't think we can use "special", because at least in my = understanding it means that multiplexing IS possible, but there are = special considerations etc that needs to be taken into account. >=20 > I am not sure whether "caution" is suitable either, because it is not = whether one should multiplex or not - how to multiplex is not defined to = begin with. However, I guess "caution" is the only alternative if "TBD" = doesn't work. >=20 > Also keep in mind that, IF someone later defines how to multiplex, we = probably would have to change the value. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 24/10/2018, 6.39, "Ben Campbell" wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 23, 2018, at 10:22 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >>=20 >> On 10/23/18 10:11 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>> Ideally, I think that this draft should assign a "real" mux category = for each >>> attribute in it. Failing that, it at least needs to do so for = "bfcpver". I'm >>> guessing that should be "caution" or "special". (Perhaps = unfortunately, >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not define a category of = "nope":-) ) >>=20 >>=20 >> Right. My reading of this was that these attributes must not be = multiplexed. And the only category that the SDP mux attributes document = defined for "do not multiplex" was "TBD". Are you proposing that this = document define a new MUX category that says "do not multiplex=E2=80=9D? >=20 > Not really; I=E2=80=99m just kind of wishing that mux-attributes = had done so. =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D does mean =E2=80=9Cdo not = multiplex=E2=80=9D, but it has connotations that this is because we = haven=E2=80=99t gotten around to determining if it is safe, not that we = have determined that it is unsafe. >=20 >> Or merely that it says that the category is "special," and that the = special considerations are "do not multiplex=E2=80=9D? >=20 > That=E2=80=99s one approach. There=E2=80=99s also =E2=80=9Ccaution=E2= =80=9D, which means something to the effect of =E2=80=9Cyou really = shouldn=E2=80=99t multiplex this=E2=80=9D. >=20 >>=20 >> /a >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_C40EE2DD-21B9-4F13-9401-7FCBCB55FD02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlvQm8YACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1HzA/5AVCm8iLKJkMb6870oh+OoN/TVhGOXtUKzCqT0BshlPKcG9eqOeCLgxcz 7nzBX5ekxOVePG2CGNhOtKH4G8ioQiqF10UDlO+ReG6AvviBFuAPAeNGtM8pkogX jRtBNwYOWZBiSPSNeI4AJQ9sUrSolvH+lXR2jRuNOTgQTDNX6OVdUa0T/NDXM7g7 OiKF+DmZE84LA7EDLuHyZO5+PSV+ZADGNBMbN7Fmql8O46ho25OgGjNp5BUGqyYZ dSWTEYABuL6T/pigOOnASs9BuAfRiEam2w0O9SwzxxtaHZpxtiCh3KuK06fHuJ4d tSHQ+2SuooaHruDGep2KosdSaRWwj0ZfUThg0eY0U1g0iSj+QfJcNnBRPgygvpT+ zCp7DtF+S9X6S4c4TIRlJ6QqaJeqq+itn9GUrn5MnDypmJK9hqFTqLzRlSr+Urdz pRLzqxgayXCMC6kyuu33iCo0Rk7fbZv02oCn8tI88JTo1CrdnKOJ5MRTB7IsFCWi OrnDm7l+SGfovQoY23A5OAnw7MPlyYa5nJq5fnPBbgzhpXlD+4AyX2QLPIfROxf3 0TShlkJWXi05fxpc2WCN6dIykPbVcD5gqcV/yv/BCdLmoo9bSIy9hpIigERIR7If fiF6x/eapGbQyMECo6HqRWf5INX5N6oR2vPRPNt2MH8yRg6N6/8= =aNzH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C40EE2DD-21B9-4F13-9401-7FCBCB55FD02-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 09:37:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11EE8130DFC; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:36:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qargyo9fbkRe; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A87AC126DBF; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.27] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9OGalgR029100 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:36:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.27] From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_05B43C87-1FE2-4923-ABCE-801E3F8CB25B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Message-Id: <6EA38BB6-27E3-44B0-8F04-7EF8C5857BF5@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:36:46 -0500 Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis.all@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes@ietf.org, The IESG To: mmusic@ietf.org, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Use of the "TBD" Mux Category in bfcpbis. X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:36:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_05B43C87-1FE2-4923-ABCE-801E3F8CB25B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I=E2=80=99d like to get the opinions of MMUSIC participants on the use = of the =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D mux category. draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis (currently in IESG evaluation) defines a = new SDP attribute =E2=80=9Cbfcpver=E2=80=9D. Since it=E2=80=99s = associated with bfcp, which does not specify mux/demux procedures, the = draft gives it a mux-category of =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D. Is that the = right choice? If not, what is? draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes describes TBD as follows: > The attributes in the TBD category have not been analyzed under the > proposed multiplexing framework and SHOULD NOT be multiplexed. However, mux-attributes goes on to use TBD for several attributes, = including one for bfcp, with notes to the effect of the following: > NOTE: As per section 9 of [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation > ], > there exists no publicly available specification that defines > procedures for multiplexing/demultiplexing BFCP streams over a = single > 5-tuple. Once such a specification is available, the multiplexing > categories assignments for the attributes in this section could be > revisited. That doesn=E2=80=99t really fit the definition. It seems more like the = attributes _have_ been analyzed, and the note states the conclusion. This is further complicated by the fact that the only change 4566bis = allows to an existing mux-category registration is to move from = =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D to something else. Any other choice will make life = harder if we later update bfcp with mux/demux procedures. I am not (yet) suggesting a change to mux-attributes or 4566bis; I=E2=80=99= m just trying to figure out the right way to specify mux-categories for = new attributes. Thanks! Ben. --Apple-Mail=_05B43C87-1FE2-4923-ABCE-801E3F8CB25B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlvQn54ACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1mCQ//fS+SmrigO5d3DfGml4K+c4OHh2wGEB1VSKFlydhlax4STWuFAVtML7fE gpiGbkWXVolgiLlK8gqK41tVfUx0fzwp/efHfY0oueXcAQmHyGVp/PffNWnpVEUU 0cn0O3f+ZBDSPAbGJ1MUqTdtRtftnCDWZoe30Z7uIOoJFyD4kVQF9fPEKCoj2bu0 7DmNRBOBkTfnZ9+QAyiQLlrhP8RwJl39Hmuiob8WDAtmbVXDJPoxNn9KjnhVehy7 iOOJt4CzweILzDyJ0WYqvEnzVNcQDP2x3/krOM467yYu2sRuw+OA7Cfntp1j0VzE NY8fQBDtLvljTRUFfW56wcAEgGEN/kDRE2WxmR4p5ZBjv5l0vAz/STuFg2T0YqYL h/vO4abUZ2Tmakz4CaSDeQMeZSO4oyNd2v6EEcKKjhGPo+Ib0kAqzP8M5/R4CdsJ HGYCxmbRV5/0Yn3LhMAhCWi49Xmh2pVG0QTrXKnjqGKiewXHyL9Oa4B6vZG20cQp pELL63k7qMmPrEbVX2/i63XI2fK6bWH8YweB5gOs7cJ9460d58d0AzArS3M2FMlV b2KLXwedtRdoa8SPUQuFZbJn3LJxeNlnHxEf+RN85frhH0WtB20WAvz+cuD+CGHA MTQ4fu4snREItCJm1u6S/l+ZtXqr8KUUpDjDbYpGuKmDVU6Gqgw= =3SEx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_05B43C87-1FE2-4923-ABCE-801E3F8CB25B-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 09:40:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C078126F72; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:40:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rK4T-D5mMGHN; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 549B4126CB6; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.27] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9OGdrDj029577 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:39:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.27] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <0260BB34-EC4C-45EC-93FB-719A5582AE91@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_18920A34-D79F-4E10-AD3E-FC289CB97993"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:39:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org To: Alissa Cooper References: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:40:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_18920A34-D79F-4E10-AD3E-FC289CB97993 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 In a separate thread branch, I noted that mux-attributes uses TBD in a = way consistent with what 4583bis is doing, but inconsistent with the = definition. I=E2=80=99ve started a thread on the mmusic list to get = opinions on the right way to handle this. Thanks! Ben. > On Oct 24, 2018, at 6:03 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Oct 24, 2018, at 5:11 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>=20 >> Ideally, I think that this draft should assign a "real" mux category = for each >> attribute in it. Failing that, it at least needs to do so for = "bfcpver". I'm >> guessing that should be "caution" or "special". (Perhaps = unfortunately, >> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not define a category of = "nope" :-) ) >=20 > Maybe it should? Now that seems like an unfortunate omission. >=20 > Alissa --Apple-Mail=_18920A34-D79F-4E10-AD3E-FC289CB97993 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlvQoFgACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A0Yzw/+L6pTj3BTCR7mzrctO99mEG584qFzuuNCtpCbPOMDoF9pBsBr0ZeJ1eqZ CmiB70Wivq6CQZVIQGJuQGGl589UgzyRqYOswQUsNZg1PSQNU99IL9Npzhxt1DMB F1i3ZS8v1JL0q2MX9vT3dc9JrGSgO+UReaBzVlbvASWBOpbyR/geq10mkEi71EyL T9nFwPvY9WXupOIHE6JkOVWJCIMH0wo+HVrJgbSAu8BRmGwt7B15G1mZzI1zmxZw 0iLzg3tsZNBlcfZhKP6LBEsYHVGLlUvPjVDS9p4Qhs21/euu+z8hfnjWkVrj1Yzd ZdlBYCnMCcm7kaXdOTXGo5lLzyjCD6dp6w0Y7ZtXpGGz62PJquAj5CXdtpaPDlDo JDGMHfa3xhFkdm8VWhtt2YwhkaL93dWIyMjGVKvxtXHGJcN8OWrCXFFpnDtoQFUs f8h1RyVGlKJ/pw5waCKRx1N4BSscFrPjJlwBKOd/gvUknmuCEyWrmWfHizwzB566 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"bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis.all@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes@ietf.org" , The IESG Thread-Topic: Use of the "TBD" Mux Category in bfcpbis. Thread-Index: AQHUa7fTCN0f+vZll0yyj+gMy5T53qUusaGQ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:08:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6EA38BB6-27E3-44B0-8F04-7EF8C5857BF5@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <6EA38BB6-27E3-44B0-8F04-7EF8C5857BF5@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.19, xch-aln-009.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Use of the "TBD" Mux Category in bfcpbis. X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:08:22 -0000 SGkgQmVuDQoNCiBUaGUgbW11c2ljIFdHIGFncmVlZCAgdG8gZnJlZXplIGZ1cnRoZXIgY2F0ZWdv cml6YXRpb25zIGluc2lkZSBtdXggZHJhZnQgYW5kIHRoYXQgYW55IG5ldyBkcmFmdCBoYXMgdG8g ZGVmaW5lIHRoZSBjYXRlZ29yaWVzIGZvciB0aGUgYXR0cmlidXRlcyB0aGV5IGRlZmluZS4gSW4g dGhpcyBjYXNlIHRoZSBiaXMgZHJhZnQgbmVlZHMgdG8gZGVmaW5lIHRoZSBuZWVkZWQgY2F0ZWdv cmllcyBhbmQgdXBkYXRlIElBTkEuDQpUaGUgcHJvY2VkdXJlcyBmb3IgdGhlIHNhbWUgYXMgZGVm aW5lZCBpbiBNdXggZHJhZnQgYXMgd2VsbA0KDQpUaGFua3MNClN1aGFzDQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkg aVBob25lDQoNCj4gT24gT2N0IDI0LCAyMDE4LCBhdCA5OjM3IEFNLCBCZW4gQ2FtcGJlbGwgPGJl bkBub3N0cnVtLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiBIaSwNCj4gDQo+IEnigJlkIGxpa2UgdG8gZ2V0 IHRoZSBvcGluaW9ucyBvZiBNTVVTSUMgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzIG9uIHRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgdGhlIOKA nFRCROKAnSBtdXggY2F0ZWdvcnkuDQo+IA0KPiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWJmY3BiaXMtcmZjNDU4M2Jp cyAoIGluIElFU0cgZXZhbHVhdGlvbikgZGVmaW5lcyBhIG5ldyBTRFAgYXR0cmlidXRlIOKAnGJm Y3B2ZXLigJ0uIFNpbmNlIGl04oCZcyBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIHdpdGggYmZjcCwgd2hpY2ggZG9lcyBu b3Qgc3BlY2lmeSBtdXgvZGVtdXggcHJvY2VkdXJlcywgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGdpdmVzIGl0IGEgbXV4 LWNhdGVnb3J5IG9mIOKAnFRCROKAnS4gSXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgcmlnaHQgY2hvaWNlPyBJZiBub3Qs IHdoYXQgaXM/DQo+IA0KPiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLW1tdXNpYy1zZHAtbXV4LWF0dHJpYnV0ZXMgZGVz Y3JpYmVzIFRCRCBhcyBmb2xsb3dzOg0KPiANCj4+ICAgVGhlIGF0dHJpYnV0ZXMgaW4gdGhlIFRC RCBjYXRlZ29yeSBoYXZlIG5vdCBiZWVuIGFuYWx5emVkIHVuZGVyIHRoZQ0KPj4gICBwcm9wb3Nl ZCBtdWx0aXBsZXhpbmcgZnJhbWV3b3JrIGFuZCBTSE9VTEQgTk9UIGJlIG11bHRpcGxleGVkLg0K PiANCj4gSG93ZXZlciwgbXV4LWF0dHJpYnV0ZXMgZ29lcyBvbiB0byB1c2UgVEJEIGZvciBzZXZl cmFsIGF0dHJpYnV0ZXMsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBvbmUgZm9yIGJmY3AsIHdpdGggbm90ZXMgdG8gdGhl IGVmZmVjdCBvZiB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nOg0KPiANCj4+ICAgTk9URTogQXMgcGVyIHNlY3Rpb24g OSBvZiBbSS1ELmlldGYtbW11c2ljLXNkcC1idW5kbGUtbmVnb3RpYXRpb24NCj4+IF0sDQo+PiAg IHRoZXJlIGV4aXN0cyBubyBwdWJsaWNseSBhdmFpbGFibGUgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiB0aGF0IGRl ZmluZXMNCj4+ICAgcHJvY2VkdXJlcyBmb3IgbXVsdGlwbGV4aW5nL2RlbXVsdGlwbGV4aW5nIEJG Q1Agc3RyZWFtcyBvdmVyIGEgc2luZ2xlDQo+PiAgIDUtdHVwbGUuICBPbmNlIHN1Y2ggYSBzcGVj aWZpY2F0aW9uIGlzIGF2YWlsYWJsZSwgdGhlIG11bHRpcGxleGluZw0KPj4gICBjYXRlZ29yaWVz IGFzc2lnbm1lbnRzIGZvciB0aGUgYXR0cmlidXRlcyBpbiB0aGlzIHNlY3Rpb24gY291bGQgYmUN Cj4+ICAgcmV2aXNpdGVkLg0KPiANCj4gVGhhdCBkb2VzbuKAmXQgcmVhbGx5IGZpdCB0aGUgZGVm aW5pdGlvbi4gSXQgc2VlbXMgbW9yZSBsaWtlIHRoZSBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzIF9oYXZlXyBiZWVuIGFu YWx5emVkLCBhbmQgdGhlIG5vdGUgc3RhdGVzIHRoZSBjb25jbHVzaW9uLg0KPiANCj4gVGhpcyBp cyBmdXJ0aGVyIGNvbXBsaWNhdGVkIGJ5IHRoZSBmYWN0IHRoYXQgIHRoZSBvbmx5IGNoYW5nZSA0 NTY2YmlzIGFsbG93cyB0byBhbiBleGlzdGluZyBtdXgtY2F0ZWdvcnkgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIGlz IHRvIG1vdmUgZnJvbSDigJxUQkTigJ0gdG8gc29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2UuIEFueSBvdGhlciBjaG9p Y2Ugd2lsbCBtYWtlIGxpZmUgaGFyZGVyIGlmIHdlIGxhdGVyIHVwZGF0ZSBiZmNwIHdpdGggbXV4 L2RlbXV4IHByb2NlZHVyZXMuDQo+IA0KPiBJIGFtIG5vdCAoeWV0KSBzdWdnZXN0aW5nIGEgY2hh bmdlIHRvIG11eC1hdHRyaWJ1dGVzIG9yIDQ1NjZiaXM7IEnigJltIGp1c3QgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGZp Z3VyZSBvdXQgdGhlIHJpZ2h0IHdheSB0byBzcGVjaWZ5IG11eC1jYXRlZ29yaWVzIGZvciBuZXcg YXR0cmlidXRlcy4NCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcyENCj4gDQo+IEJlbi4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo= From nobody Wed Oct 24 11:22:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9603D12777C; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:22:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q_tFKiTPq3Wj; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80CA7124C04; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.27] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9OIMWng046640 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:22:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.27] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <95321542-CA94-4345-AD2D-44FFDF43456E@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8C83A091-F297-4411-AA3B-B6EA34B9E70A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:22:29 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis.all@ietf.org" To: "Suhas Nandakumar (snandaku)" References: <6EA38BB6-27E3-44B0-8F04-7EF8C5857BF5@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Use of the "TBD" Mux Category in bfcpbis. X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:22:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8C83A091-F297-4411-AA3B-B6EA34B9E70A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Suhas, As I mentioned, I am not suggesting we add this to the mux-attributes = draft. My question was, what is the correct category to use for a new = attribute associated with a non-muxable protocol? Ben. > On Oct 24, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Suhas Nandakumar (snandaku) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Ben >=20 > The mmusic WG agreed to freeze further categorizations inside mux = draft and that any new draft has to define the categories for the = attributes they define. In this case the bis draft needs to define the = needed categories and update IANA. > The procedures for the same as defined in Mux draft as well >=20 > Thanks > Suhas > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Oct 24, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99d like to get the opinions of MMUSIC participants on the = use of the =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D mux category. >>=20 >> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis ( in IESG evaluation) defines a new SDP = attribute =E2=80=9Cbfcpver=E2=80=9D. Since it=E2=80=99s associated with = bfcp, which does not specify mux/demux procedures, the draft gives it a = mux-category of =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D. Is that the right choice? If not, = what is? >>=20 >> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes describes TBD as follows: >>=20 >>> The attributes in the TBD category have not been analyzed under the >>> proposed multiplexing framework and SHOULD NOT be multiplexed. >>=20 >> However, mux-attributes goes on to use TBD for several attributes, = including one for bfcp, with notes to the effect of the following: >>=20 >>> NOTE: As per section 9 of [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation >>> ], >>> there exists no publicly available specification that defines >>> procedures for multiplexing/demultiplexing BFCP streams over a = single >>> 5-tuple. Once such a specification is available, the multiplexing >>> categories assignments for the attributes in this section could be >>> revisited. >>=20 >> That doesn=E2=80=99t really fit the definition. It seems more like = the attributes _have_ been analyzed, and the note states the conclusion. >>=20 >> This is further complicated by the fact that the only change 4566bis = allows to an existing mux-category registration is to move from = =E2=80=9CTBD=E2=80=9D to something else. Any other choice will make life = harder if we later update bfcp with mux/demux procedures. >>=20 >> I am not (yet) suggesting a change to mux-attributes or 4566bis; = I=E2=80=99m just trying to figure out the right way to specify = mux-categories for new attributes. >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Ben. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_8C83A091-F297-4411-AA3B-B6EA34B9E70A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlvQuGUACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A0Xuw/8DxbHv7AY6WjBfJV/TNirkuG3hEyTPXyTT+e4Gqzq7IMqT4BXiVlG0EAS mJnlFjipiU4KgMt/iLS3F+sgk1W1b1JBy764NyCw35jq+oa57YDohq0tzuXbaXRw oJ1Z3uCbREc0TArprpHGgxGymJvhQGU3ZPPYcbt/6+EYRnq6o/gx6231DcOj7H/d L15+/li3k8vcJqPrgfT8JmkrZ3qssKRbffHkLBwwaOvQh/KqXTg45W5c7+DCsecW 5yQFm5hw5CnbVtpe9V76VYKVRNem4xQNYCvVLUDGG0kUtfH1TL8fHjVat5hDiyJg 6xaYiTsZzo396IcdX2HL6/ToMWVmeHqFjLJYBIYqyvIwvBpY9wywD++nOfYG37mS bskeE0xiXnP09a9QvMzW3/rD0NnGeQnLZSSsJsJoP+Cs/m/809Cv9luvOct+kn32 fpXU5eUaF6jLdJgJDmYUyIIeuXMT7hyB4ScFRTOQPU/BOrhGa21LHKDCUVCmj1H7 QvuKBVCpdJCNgoRGWFrHRm35C4F0KosRTBHKTc2Nj83K8DxnzCNymMJszn3IykKT UdW2a5ceyJbFYz6fvd2GHOU5r8CnpTpCJu3Ld4hvgjADH2yOrfZRoUVRlYEYWUGV va0GhcI23jICr9DBPcWJWLbrn1a6WXPs5u0WybPKUyXyfesDLJ8= =WS3z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8C83A091-F297-4411-AA3B-B6EA34B9E70A-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 11:31:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC2112777C for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:31:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id esozGSSzJinn for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AE40130DF0 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id o19-v6so2613844pll.12 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:31:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4v2TG4R/8umPww/7Af9xUAu/NYTuAKj7sUUlf4U4tgs=; b=NM2vPPHvCZoWpWAlmA2UnZraMrC4uShMToSwA8cWnkXEgU6ESGGrrvgBaBC25TPKkD B7O7s0ACeiI3arBQFaFm8jQW5d2vS01YtX+etIsi7fE4lkvV4EfgIwHCfZiCBYB/sncd VSx4vlZQWWE/Hp1Gk1oiDlSEATeTC3BNrQFXmlwaVd4yo8e5ladJjQEyItujFgY9IjYe 3lm0u2IM033qEIU6oGhMnPa4QiO4zsBB0KjtXcGGWz7xgpECWvsUAPRjHRA6NXdnJt+5 vg8D47cWsQlJ5aCcaC/0pIeU4iTJqGymK0uyoAjS2ZQO19U+6nCll5ySOkwuIN5wtOTk Fa/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4v2TG4R/8umPww/7Af9xUAu/NYTuAKj7sUUlf4U4tgs=; b=istoXxINEyb0aKXTDHJme9zQ8ZwjKzTn7bSBsvfrwhMn4p+kSO4W8ohepsLYfW2c4H Tfzmykrdot640209oV6fxTYZQY7BKtGuyToCglAh2RceDT42eJ+yF07QTCr9lsS+mKev BslxhasqMHF00W7/qswrLjiknltXFN0RgTt9Rpf3Q9zUeHA3nuitzOsXDGCJlZrRpVZj Q4xVMsMIxZwC+Ow41coz5rlWjhlfVNMNNbKfFXDwcCtQ2V/RdhSc2EE2gBvsCXYYQ84C y2z0qkcsypOmhLhRVlCzc7ZnyOTi27cF73Igu9ymkdK3BD8kJQ6wPlK6r/f/ZLhVxWc0 G3BA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKAMvPbMn2wgo3Ry+oZWKOcpzeYcY/rI0J/bsIYtBRfMLMAxi33 iUtjaZKSCjx+0VdjdcipM8qNfXazzL4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f92QGxo4RW/qniPB6OTD7V0749WaJ/a5TE+KfFAIUaLJ6Mt0cYJhMzvHK37u/Uf9R35IPXqA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:bb88:: with SMTP id m8-v6mr3410842pls.120.1540405885921; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-f171.google.com (mail-pl1-f171.google.com. [209.85.214.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k12-v6sm8110886pgr.81.2018.10.24.11.31.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-f171.google.com with SMTP id o19-v6so2613819pll.12; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:31:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:2f41:: with SMTP id s59-v6mr3453828plb.277.1540405884807; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154039268936.6939.17214783198090812411.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1CDBF82F-6AE4-4A50-ADB8-C0E70507BF1B@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <1CDBF82F-6AE4-4A50-ADB8-C0E70507BF1B@ericsson.com> From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:31:19 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" Cc: IESG , Mary Barnes , bfcpbis@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000092f0640578fdb1e5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:31:28 -0000 --00000000000092f0640578fdb1e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mirja, On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:05 PM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > 1) Section 4: > > =E2=80=9EThis is one of the options when ICE is used (Section 9).=E2= =80=9C > > Maybe you can make this sentence slightly more specific because that > was one > > thing I was wondering about all the time until I read 9 (why > TCP/DTLS/BFCP is > > needed), e.g. =E2=80=9EThis is one of the options where when ICE is = used only > one DTLS > > session is established but there are candidate pairs for UDP and TCP > (Section > > 9).=E2=80=9C > > > > Also why is 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' not called 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP=E2=80=98? > > It's mainly for backward compatibility reasons (this draft has been aroun= d > for many years, and have been implemented and deployed), because for some > reasons people thought 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' was correct at some point. > > I guess someone else may have more information, because I don't remember > the details of the discussions that took place at the time. > Christer is correct here: I have proposed to use 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP=E2=80=98 bu= t I was told there are existing implementations which use 'UDP/TLS/BFCP=E2=80=98 an= d this cannot be changed for backwards compatibility reasons. Regards, ______________ Roman Shpount --00000000000092f0640578fdb1e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mi= rja,=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:05 PM Christer Hol= mberg <christer.holmbe= rg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) Section 4:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9EThis is one of the options when ICE is used (Sec= tion 9).=E2=80=9C
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maybe you can make this sentence slightly more specific b= ecause that was one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 thing I was wondering about all the time until I read 9 (= why TCP/DTLS/BFCP is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 needed), e.g. =E2=80=9EThis is one of the options where w= hen ICE is used only one DTLS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 session is established but there are candidate pairs for = UDP and TCP (Section
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 9).=E2=80=9C
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also why is 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' not called 'UDP/DT= LS/BFCP=E2=80=98?

It's mainly for backward compatibility reasons (this draft has been aro= und for many years, and have been implemented and deployed), because for so= me reasons people thought 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' was correct at some point.=

I guess someone else may have more information, because I don't remembe= r the details of the discussions that took place at the time.

Christer is correct here: I have proposed to use = 9;UDP/DTLS/BFCP=E2=80=98 but I was told there are existing implementations = which use 'UDP/TLS/BFCP=E2=80=98 and this cannot be changed for backwar= ds compatibility reasons.

Regards,
_____= _________
Roman Shpount=C2=A0
--00000000000092f0640578fdb1e5-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 11:51:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 780EF127148; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:51:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ben Campbell To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154040709540.6988.10031792485004990497.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:51:35 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:51:36 -0000 Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Update: After a bit of discussion and a re-read of draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes, I see that, while the use of "TBD" does not seem consistent with the definition of TBD, it does seem consistent with the practice in mux-attributes of assigning a category of TBD to attributes associated with non-muxable protocols. I've sent an email to the MMUSIC WG for guidance on the intended use. In the process, I noticed that the category assignments in this draft do not match the existing assignments in mux-attributes, which marks "floorctrl" as "TBD", and the others as "NORMAL". This draft marks all attributes as "TBD". I am going to hold the DISCUSS position for now, until discussion of the use of TBD resolves a bit further, and until the assignment mismatch is corrected. Original DISCUSS text: Thanks for the work on this document. I have one item that I want to make sure is discussed prior to publication, thus the DISCUSS position: This document lists all the SDP attributes as having an a Mux Category of "TBD". draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did indeed assign a category of "TBD" to all the attributes, save for bfcpver, which didn't exist at the time. But the point of "TBD" was to say that draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not actually analyze the attributes to determine a "real" mux category. It's not intended as free pass to let other attribute definitions skip that analysis. Ideally, I think that this draft should assign a "real" mux category for each attribute in it. Failing that, it at least needs to do so for "bfcpver". I'm guessing that should be "caution" or "special". (Perhaps unfortunately, draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not define a category of "nope" :-) ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- *** Substantive Comments *** §4: "The fmt (format) list is not applicable to BFCP. The fmt list of ’m’ lines in the case of any proto field value related to BFCP MUST contain a single "*" character. If the the fmt list contains any other value it is ignored." It seems like the last sentence should use a MUST to match the one in the previous sentence. *** Editorial Comments *** §3: "Typically, a client that establishes a BFCP stream with a conference server will act as a floor control client, while the conference server will act as a floor control server." The use of "typically" seems odd without a discussion of when it might not. Perhaps a forward reference to section 7 would help? §6: "[I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes] defines the mux categories for the SDP attributes defined in this specification. Table 2 defines the mux category for the ’bfcpver’ attribute:" I assume the first sentence should say "... except for bfcpver."? §10, 3rd paragraph: Incorrect comma use in "... SDP), in ..." §10.1, last paragraph: "... value, in the offer, ...": The first comma is incorrect. §10.3: First paragraph: "When the offerer receives an answer, which contains an ’m’ line..." s/ ", which" / "that" §16.2: It seems like [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes] should be a normative reference. From nobody Wed Oct 24 12:23:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36CAB127148; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:23:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Rescorla To: "The IESG" Cc: mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:23:34 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:23:34 -0000 Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rich version of this review at: https://mozphab-ietf.devsvcdev.mozaws.net/D4457 DETAIL S 9. > transport is used for the default candidate, then the 'm' line proto > value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. If TCP transport is used for the > default candidate, the 'm' line proto value MUST be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'. > > Note: Usage of ICE with protocols other than UDP/TLS/BFCP and > TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for this specification. this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's over TCP. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S 5.3. > The SDP Offer/Answer procedures for the 'confid' attribute are > defined in Section 10. > > 5.3. SDP 'userid' Attribute > > This section defines the SDP userid' media-level attribute. The Are there any security considerations around this attribute? S 5.5. > 'bfcpver' attribute in offers and answers. The attribute value, if > present, MUST be in accordance with the definition of the Version > field in [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis]. If the attribute is not > present, endpoints MUST assume a default value in accordance with > [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis]: when used over a reliable transport > the default attribute value is "1", and when used over an unreliable Just for clarity: UDP over TURN-TCP is an unreliable transport, right? S 7.1. > deliver a BFCP message and times out, the endpoint that attempted to > send the message (i.e., the one that detected the TCP timeout) MUST > send an offer in order to re-establish the TCP connection. > > Endpoints that use the offer/answer mechanism to negotiate TCP > connections MUST support the 'setup' and 'connection' attributes. You probably need a reference here. S 10.1. > > o MUST associate an SDP 'floorid' attribute (Section 5.4) with the > 'm' line; and > > o MUST associate an SDP 'label' attribute ([RFC4574]) with the 'm' > line of each BFCP-controlled media stream. We managed to mostly purge "associate" from BUNDLE. Can we do it here too? S 10.2. > o MUST insert a corresponding 'm' line in the answer, with an > identical 'm' line proto value [RFC3264]; and > > o MUST associate a 'bfcpver' attribute with the 'm' line. The > answerer only indicates support of BFCP versions also supported by > the offerer; and Is this an odd way of saying you must subset what the offer contained? From nobody Wed Oct 24 12:50:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7611A124C04 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:50:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TBZrAdvMqQHX for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7E1C129619 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id p5-v6so2715109plq.8 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HY9ubgReXGhzpPoxfwRzZMf69NBshbLBpAvvHWtWGKw=; b=zRFf5yl9YGHdU/zFVYbNP++kknimXxNTgZOVeZML5lqLDGTeRDaMrLBEL5EeuINFp8 rvAw4IEjTWgPMkDmalo57lqf3xcJw+gPdKFGO4qRMM6uLqV15PjGak8na1qwHAvnqiwD NPjR/3lChPKDOcb33J8NHm3kF5uMComVD3ZGRVikO9pq5aQkOLbfRruIpyWFoEX3tXMf +borwWDEyhObIJqlrk25qCSGW4V3OqbffCKnmSMrntXPmto46zx/HfLOzNi8cEy7NSgD g5w8dWK2wMN72frJS2FUzF9J0kunVo7vDvFHpda3DCezv9miiyd4iles1NYbUQBUOKDf dsKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HY9ubgReXGhzpPoxfwRzZMf69NBshbLBpAvvHWtWGKw=; b=Z0pzgWLQ6oTWJMjRcvfvp1aDnOY7XmSMDLsmLtmR7rkLj/Nqxfgqfkb6E7yYjp6uwO +NHVVR7NCeqlg+grsVTOrtEkfncQqg6+VryyHR+YcW6CNTYST+yabQYfkLaC3lrxEUow IKeUWgI1p5Y0gOL1Z5QUEZ2E3FtVAWbFauqIaPbLoa/ADAyVjjgk1689xEg6Rn5ASVdY FLBMw6eBlKYWseNH0LpICLF0+q+JPCV3KxPrf2dcaoJPtI99XWPYpRVI341hvI2HR+nS uNgmoM0DajEg086CmYgkkkhgK6TipfcY2UH9V/lTx8LsEA6GqAefyCJ8pFccfjA5Aglk vnRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIDNedxhJAN6nMNvRMoj983n3otGe1kHemiEv2Oyg5XLPqPy+mh sdBvsXupBmLorLlogWhGjGPhhg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cOy9/FfZQIhWmf8rJnyr7KFEOuFFMq3OZN+dVK1FL7jC27RXVbXl9Ny2xgaqCYglrBBqdlmw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:4e25:: with SMTP id f34-v6mr3628783ple.43.1540410622383; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-f171.google.com (mail-pf1-f171.google.com. [209.85.210.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i184-v6sm9790452pfg.88.2018.10.24.12.50.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-f171.google.com with SMTP id t10-v6so1518436pfh.12; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a63:1a41:: with SMTP id a1-v6mr3843738pgm.9.1540410621397; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:50:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:50:10 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, Mary Barnes , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5919c0578fecbbd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:50:27 -0000 --000000000000e5919c0578fecbbd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Eric, Since I have helped with ICE related sections of this draft, I can provide answers to some of your comments: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > S 9. > > transport is used for the default candidate, then the 'm' line proto > > value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. If TCP transport is used for the > > default candidate, the 'm' line proto value MUST be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'. > > > > Note: Usage of ICE with protocols other than UDP/TLS/BFCP and > > TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for this specification. > > this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure > it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP > candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that > with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the > negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and > then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and > TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to > do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's > over TCP. > > When ICE is used, DTLS is always used exactly for the reasons you mention. End points only allowed to use 'UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only named 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' instead of 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop reasons, since some implementations apparently already added support for this. Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP as 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as "UDP/RTP/TLS/SAVP". > S 5.5. > > 'bfcpver' attribute in offers and answers. The attribute value, if > > present, MUST be in accordance with the definition of the Version > > field in [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis]. If the attribute is not > > present, endpoints MUST assume a default value in accordance with > > [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis]: when used over a reliable transport > > the default attribute value is "1", and when used over an unreliable > > Just for clarity: UDP over TURN-TCP is an unreliable transport, right? > > UDP/BFCP, UDP/TLS/BFCP, and TCP/DTLS/BFCP are all unreliable transports, even if TURN-TCP or TURN-TLS is used. Only TCP/BFCP and TCP/TLS/BFCP transports are considered reliable. Do you think it should be explicitly spelled out? Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --000000000000e5919c0578fecbbd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eric,

Since I have = helped with ICE related sections of this draft, I can provide answers to so= me of your comments:

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
S= 9.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transport is used for the default candidate, then = the 'm' line proto
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'.=C2=A0 If TCP= transport is used for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 default candidate, the 'm' line proto valu= e MUST be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note: Usage of ICE with protocols oth= er than UDP/TLS/BFCP and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for= this specification.

this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure
it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP
candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that
with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the
negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and
then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and
TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to<= br> do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's over TCP.


When ICE is used, DTLS is always used = exactly for the reasons you mention.=C2=A0 End points only allowed to use &= #39;UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', = which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only named=C2=A0 'UDP/TLS/BFCP= '=C2=A0instead of=C2=A0 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop reas= ons, since some implementations apparently already added support for this.= =C2=A0 Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP=C2=A0 as 'UDP= /TLS/BFCP'=C2=A0 is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as "U= DP/RTP/TLS/SAVP".
=C2=A0
S 5.5.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'bfcpver' attribute in offers and answers.= =C2=A0 The attribute value, if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 present, MUST be in accordance with the definition= of the Version
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 field in [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis].=C2=A0 If t= he attribute is not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 present, endpoints MUST assume a default value in = accordance with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis]: when used over a re= liable transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the default attribute value is "1", and = when used over an unreliable

Just for clarity: UDP over TURN-TCP is an unreliable transport, right?
<= br>

UDP/BFCP, UDP/TLS/BFCP, and TCP/DTLS/BF= CP are all unreliable transports, even if TURN-TCP or TURN-TLS is used. Onl= y TCP/BFCP and TCP/TLS/BFCP transports are considered reliable. Do you thin= k it should be explicitly spelled out?=C2=A0

Regar= ds,
_____________
R= oman Shpount

=C2=A0
--000000000000e5919c0578fecbbd-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 12:54:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98BA12DDA3 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xq10x29-udip for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AB9E129619 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id z9-v6so1112119ljk.9 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:54:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4jC2Q57iUS6Z0M4nVUChsImm8WMa3ABa8u/g77DTs6o=; b=bb6SszGVrBs1eT0DVn381fWtOd448hHtWb96jFCo+/SOos8Tr0x/IRqWXSMcoVbMgm 9YLTNK8OXRWyUR173il8ZfVmBZsMBN0eybZNTvxVY5ytmaVLcc4qITgYLQfdRFumP/wU SIzKGggq7/BB0MCSwmVMF/uBpTusvf+b7NYRrLiylGHPGR0AYRY1EEVzUjOR1wkD3GkQ SsUN44KSaYw4OXH84wTIz7FoFqbtwgn1fhkVt1dKH5G+dGRerqEk6xwcogScI1MTzJ5e rRsalyvuIGoOg9czAFQ8KUZuR2LYEwhhBzoJF4gAXc5SAGdzPbnLCI7jaa9iOvLWETuy d1pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4jC2Q57iUS6Z0M4nVUChsImm8WMa3ABa8u/g77DTs6o=; b=RFd6pxcy3eCU0uuEIMJl+QQ8U+YmtjdLrbJQ3q0yoBGaVyp6a7zWyFDja01HFCNcmY HyTTkw8F9pVPpIbYV8D8UjmGIKB9/veryZS7CYHsSUw+K+FsL9dseUJ0IXzkj5ia/DoZ QL2wGi4m3WsTsu0F3hoDQRS8n4NNijDpZZ9NjZBJS/6FBcbA99SF731RKWU+uVEPvhmq XUGLa1++FTm5oAXNxaHa9E3+npQnw1hGh3gd14bSpv/X4ar7vAzZeKueA++hRMRWKXJL WeBMvEgCbbcktkugo7H/4jNAhNgqtZoRBsncotauPVWB5U61tU8m1ZWGTFAkG9pznyOt vJmg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIxQ6pWPK27gq320YL85z1lgc+SrFi5x+ZuGD25voI3RFOAR6g4 4zoxRDSW09Kz3Kfu+RH3t6+Q3bMYidP0cvFaCsp9NUYg X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dLFdDfI6JV779AQpwQDAv+Eja8s3nZUuralI7XqvVsvBSmOjLr9WpG8oDMK3RbkS4Mo/3LZ9O7TBuvvSEVaSY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2a43:: with SMTP id q64-v6mr2611258ljq.153.1540410849787; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:54:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:53:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, Mary Barnes , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008295e00578fed9b8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:54:14 -0000 --0000000000008295e00578fed9b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:50 PM Roman Shpount wrote: > Hi Eric, > > Since I have helped with ICE related sections of this draft, I can provide > answers to some of your comments: > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> S 9. >> > transport is used for the default candidate, then the 'm' line >> proto >> > value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. If TCP transport is used for the >> > default candidate, the 'm' line proto value MUST be >> 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'. >> > >> > Note: Usage of ICE with protocols other than UDP/TLS/BFCP and >> > TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for this specification. >> >> this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure >> it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP >> candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that >> with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the >> negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and >> then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and >> TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to >> do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's >> over TCP. >> >> > When ICE is used, DTLS is always used exactly for the reasons you > mention. End points only allowed to use 'UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over > UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only > named 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' instead of 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop > reasons, since some implementations apparently already added support for > this. Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP as > 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as > "UDP/RTP/TLS/SAVP". > Ah, I missed this. But then I do wonder whether it's really useful to have two proto versions here, rather than just UDP/TLS/BFCP. We didn't find it helpful in JSEP.... > >> S 5.5. >> > 'bfcpver' attribute in offers and answers. The attribute value, if >> > present, MUST be in accordance with the definition of the Version >> > field in [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis]. If the attribute is not >> > present, endpoints MUST assume a default value in accordance with >> > [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis]: when used over a reliable transport >> > the default attribute value is "1", and when used over an >> unreliable >> >> Just for clarity: UDP over TURN-TCP is an unreliable transport, right? >> >> > UDP/BFCP, UDP/TLS/BFCP, and TCP/DTLS/BFCP are all unreliable transports, > even if TURN-TCP or TURN-TLS is used. Only TCP/BFCP and TCP/TLS/BFCP > transports are considered reliable. Do you think it should be explicitly > spelled out? > It shouldn't have to be, but people seem to get confused. -Ekr > Regards, > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > --0000000000008295e00578fed9b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed= , Oct 24, 2018 at 12:50 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
Hi Eric,

Since I = have helped with ICE related sections of this draft, I can provide answers = to some of your comments:

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:= 23 PM Eric Rescorla <e= kr@rtfm.com> wrote:
S 9.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transport is used for the default candidate, then = the 'm' line proto
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'.=C2=A0 If TCP= transport is used for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 default candidate, the 'm' line proto valu= e MUST be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note: Usage of ICE with protocols oth= er than UDP/TLS/BFCP and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for= this specification.

this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure
it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP
candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that
with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the
negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and
then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and
TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to<= br> do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's over TCP.


When ICE is used, DTLS is always used = exactly for the reasons you mention.=C2=A0 End points only allowed to use &= #39;UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', = which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only named=C2=A0 'UDP/TLS/BFCP= '=C2=A0instead of=C2=A0 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop reas= ons, since some implementations apparently already added support for this.= =C2=A0 Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP=C2=A0 as 'UDP= /TLS/BFCP'=C2=A0 is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as "U= DP/RTP/TLS/SAVP".

<= /div>
Ah, I missed this. But then I do wonder whether it's really u= seful to have two proto versions here, rather than just UDP/TLS/BFCP. We di= dn't find it helpful in JSEP....


=C2=A0
S 5.5.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'bfcpver' attribute in offers and answers.= =C2=A0 The attribute value, if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 present, MUST be in accordance with the definition= of the Version
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 field in [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis].=C2=A0 If t= he attribute is not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 present, endpoints MUST assume a default value in = accordance with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis]: when used over a re= liable transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the default attribute value is "1", and = when used over an unreliable

Just for clarity: UDP over TURN-TCP is an unreliable transport, right?
<= br>

UDP/BFCP, UDP/TLS/BFCP, and TCP/DTLS/BF= CP are all unreliable transports, even if TURN-TCP or TURN-TLS is used. Onl= y TCP/BFCP and TCP/TLS/BFCP transports are considered reliable. Do you thin= k it should be explicitly spelled out?=C2=A0
<= /blockquote>

It shouldn't have to be, but people see= m to get confused.

-Ekr


Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpoun= t

=C2=A0
--0000000000008295e00578fed9b8-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 13:12:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC7D130E19 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:12:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QnVsYkxuMHZV for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3D8712D4E9 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id f26-v6so2963386pfn.9 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:12:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wQr9ZZ2/gER5JpZAwMiDt9FB2JNYbDLTV/nwibJ4iRg=; b=Tk5bAJU+NlecJlinOmgMSBQLwGfe9gukSKwfUoD7TAExI5mqUzIIdmWo1SusxbTEzA FUqi2bF2vTDHTcSBe8FaQxVm8UNkfQbdEwE6SbV+F4zeU+YL+gfSfOAMi3i1enOPhn9r o9SHIBYMuT3MBOkT1epbmgwb+Hcf7EU6ncXH5CFkuDRDpnzCq4Ic+yxuDRwmcOEn/3jf CwFOJUxZ8J13m6LvEceCSIYKI++EUctJFnDgcXITykCMyrWloT/KSWSvCxWPXaE/0E0p lSKv56IUOU903fjRCxzaCrBQ8wuvB2dogWEu/gVdtWCPjFXGbFZavyk0sTvJ22he+zfc 4Elw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wQr9ZZ2/gER5JpZAwMiDt9FB2JNYbDLTV/nwibJ4iRg=; b=CXPwQCX6y/zyS/OtBCl7DzP5fxGA477lxHG5iAgTphZTJt4CvxKu6o+1lOb5M6fsBS kSWZIFuxQHUumpf5E06hc/VLsO970W5PWJVBnDadpTtj61bjcbnp6DNLFnD7lsAGON+e aB2Bwq+Lz/X2TXZ2H/jNH+YtVXNgUImIo1Dh3TxBZKiVfYQ7ApfcYbutFnigr4cCHTkL kJsbEA99cwoBtgam57+S2jO36QLPxaBOxPoZ7w8d8QvN78M7cynToPOnqJGpZ5+2quol m0UlniM8Lp3CIZHfbKF29SymK7lM02+k522k+1lirbYtNy4MkIjbQOJIlC/s16SnWXZG wQUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gILyvhhOoQ5Bj5QBWGQfTTpIetIMqcFCf5O6CvIvSx1bGQ9sz8n YiKHYuDUMYpbYN/xAYShI4E8vw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fDqdILwXihOxJGxphrjmlKi58z1E+9lcg0jOEmzKSRF0zWO4nqE1+ixlJFuflruj4lE2h83A== X-Received: by 2002:a63:a012:: with SMTP id r18-v6mr3914217pge.282.1540411945403; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-f179.google.com (mail-pl1-f179.google.com. [209.85.214.179]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b19-v6sm6203776pfo.50.2018.10.24.13.12.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-f179.google.com with SMTP id x6-v6so2759499pln.0; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:12:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e089:: with SMTP id cb9-v6mr3704099plb.196.1540411944194; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:12:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:12:13 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, Mary Barnes , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bdd9e10578ff1a84" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:12:30 -0000 --000000000000bdd9e10578ff1a84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:54 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:50 PM Roman Shpount wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>> S 9. >>> > transport is used for the default candidate, then the 'm' line >>> proto >>> > value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. If TCP transport is used for the >>> > default candidate, the 'm' line proto value MUST be >>> 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'. >>> > >>> > Note: Usage of ICE with protocols other than UDP/TLS/BFCP and >>> > TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for this specification. >>> >>> this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure >>> it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP >>> candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that >>> with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the >>> negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and >>> then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and >>> TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to >>> do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's >>> over TCP. >>> >>> >> When ICE is used, DTLS is always used exactly for the reasons you >> mention. End points only allowed to use 'UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over >> UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only >> named 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' instead of 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop >> reasons, since some implementations apparently already added support for >> this. Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP as >> 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as >> "UDP/RTP/TLS/SAVP". >> > > Ah, I missed this. But then I do wonder whether it's really useful to have > two proto versions here, rather than just UDP/TLS/BFCP. We didn't find it > helpful in JSEP.... > > ICE SDP draft still requires a re-INVITE after nomination process is completed where c= and m= line are updated to reflect the nominated candidate. If nominated candidate an ICE-TCP candidate, then proto in m= line would be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' to reflect this. In cases when non ICE-TCP candidate is used, the proto in m= line will be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. Also, all subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which do not initiate ICE restart are supposed to use the proto value of nominated candidate in the m= line. So, the only reason for existence of 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' proto is to differentiate if UDP or TCP candidate is used after the nomination. How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I was pretty sure that 'TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were used there for this purpose, but I could have missed one of the updates. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --000000000000bdd9e10578ff1a84 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:54 PM Eric Rescorla <= ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
=
=

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at= 12:50 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 24= , 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
S 9.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transport is used for the default candidate, then = the 'm' line proto
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'.=C2=A0 If TCP= transport is used for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 default candidate, the 'm' line proto valu= e MUST be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note: Usage of ICE with protocols oth= er than UDP/TLS/BFCP and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for= this specification.

this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure
it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP
candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that
with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the
negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and
then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and
TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to<= br> do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's over TCP.


When ICE is used, DTLS is always used = exactly for the reasons you mention.=C2=A0 End points only allowed to use &= #39;UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', = which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only named=C2=A0 'UDP/TLS/BFCP= '=C2=A0instead of=C2=A0 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop reas= ons, since some implementations apparently already added support for this.= =C2=A0 Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP=C2=A0 as 'UDP= /TLS/BFCP'=C2=A0 is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as "U= DP/RTP/TLS/SAVP".

<= /div>
Ah, I missed this. But then I do wonder whether it's really u= seful to have two proto versions here, rather than just UDP/TLS/BFCP. We di= dn't find it helpful in JSEP....


ICE SDP draft still requires a re-INVITE aft= er nomination process is completed where c=3D and m=3D line are updated to = reflect the nominated candidate. If nominated candidate an ICE-TCP candidat= e, then proto in m=3D line would be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' to reflect this= . In cases when non ICE-TCP candidate is used, the proto in m=3D line will = be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. Also, all subsequent offer/answer exchanges, whi= ch do not initiate ICE restart are supposed to use the proto value of nomin= ated candidate in the m=3D line. So, the only reason for existence of '= TCP/DTLS/BFCP' proto is to differentiate if UDP or TCP candidate is use= d after the nomination.

How did you solve this iss= ue in JSEP? I was pretty sure that=C2=A0'TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and = 9;TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were=C2=A0used there for this purpose, but I could hav= e missed one of the updates.

Regards,
_______= ______
Roman Shpount
= =C2=A0
--000000000000bdd9e10578ff1a84-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 13:23:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F088F128D68; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:23:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Suresh Krishnan To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154041263191.6980.6973412357737569729.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:23:51 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:23:52 -0000 Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Similar to Mirja, I was also wondering why UDP/TLS/BFCP is not called UDP/DTLS/BFCP instead since it does use DTLS? From nobody Wed Oct 24 13:27:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280DA130E8B for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:27:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jV2hXW4eK6P7 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AC6B130EE7 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id i4-v6so2861366pgq.9 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:27:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RjrkkT9CoLSLOXniOJ/nAQhg/YXrj/DJzkkNp495u5M=; b=ZoD4hd63fuJYQPeX2uaUL/qS/R+dQuRgvrj+x6OgmuvFiYTPWs5h/s58CxWPCFLURh a+JrJ8sAb+0s/E17tzRLUTr04jAS2WZZzswj4IfdqPNivRrDUJe++TXoYohTfA3pyQlg f0ZWVFHY6dE698WHmm+QUc4sg0fqF4UW1Xe6csnJrA+vj73B5yqM2K7zQQC8+LXOKtSR GXJepgtGG9sgGzsY4vphWszbuVvKd9i9/WiPMlh1yCfTUZannBnqA5nuhifFNq7d2VtM xQRy8lB54u3o858ifc6mz0o9LPkZmuHuOak8RHJGtPWBeDnNvnxigo6F4jAe5+40bLwA 9xgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RjrkkT9CoLSLOXniOJ/nAQhg/YXrj/DJzkkNp495u5M=; b=JB7tylNu1r1VUFRBBtOFxbbdpMtyv9DnXU4ORFNUG4Kt0Rl4/WT7TeZiTZCIqhw5Fz VdyXgtUZ/Yt+17x3TJWa0g571DAxYWDcr6fq19ICvO12DX9J25Qv2WAMXkBpeGNFGJ3x TrmBxkdJqe4NgGwH2v3XZ6xNYl1ABZi74VlFMatmZ/LBbq57tPdd0eiNsKmYUvqYUhfM D3s1yTXZ028uzuvXYRH/6Gy1JlIqb8rIpg33zVtHo5Ak5pinsKxdo/ZOhi9DM7EwJTCi +eyXSSapdGnexE2I1R8WkVuplP/LYxTQGrF5CO5Sk3mm6cFAB7Ypydk86Jed8RaymXAO QZHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLjuwLCQSsV9KXf2hlH+B72XODh+uv/4f9MzQIWoeC/6aIhM81p u4GpuGXpOJWciY9RzE4pQva5aA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fk571U9ZMSMwevHFYIS9FwM7Of/2mZPGkpDNUfXzME9ouw5+Bi6r30+6RTgfpIhAb89/vl4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ac02:: with SMTP id v2-v6mr3875179pge.414.1540412854670; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-f181.google.com (mail-pl1-f181.google.com. [209.85.214.181]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a1-v6sm9530931pfj.38.2018.10.24.13.27.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-f181.google.com with SMTP id x6-v6so2776768pln.0; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:27:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:63:: with SMTP id 90-v6mr3828311pla.79.1540412853695; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:27:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154041263191.6980.6973412357737569729.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154041263191.6980.6973412357737569729.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:27:22 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: suresh@kaloom.com Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, Mary Barnes , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f3bded0578ff50e3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:27:45 -0000 --000000000000f3bded0578ff50e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Suresh, On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:23 PM Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Similar to Mirja, I was also wondering why UDP/TLS/BFCP is not called > UDP/DTLS/BFCP instead since it does use DTLS? > > The same reason RTP over DTLS over UDP is called UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVP instead of UDP/DTLS/RTP/SAVP -- legacy interop with existing implementations which are already using this proto name. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --000000000000f3bded0578ff50e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Suresh,

On= Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:23 PM Suresh Krishnan <suresh@kaloom.com> wrote:
Similar to Mirja, I was also won= dering why UDP/TLS/BFCP is not called
UDP/DTLS/BFCP instead since it does use DTLS?


=
The same reason RTP over DTLS over UDP is called UDP/TLS/RTP/SAV= P instead of UDP/DTLS/RTP/SAVP -- legacy interop with existing implementati= ons which are already using this proto name.

Regar= ds,
_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
--000000000000f3bded0578ff50e3-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 13:33:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCBB0130E13; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:33:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=kaloom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SuW8euMHI4x1; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CAN01-QB1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr660099.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.66.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6123A128D68; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Oct 24, 2018, at 4:27 PM, Roman Shpount > wrote: Hi Suresh, On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:23 PM Suresh Krishnan > wrote: Similar to Mirja, I was also wondering why UDP/TLS/BFCP is not called UDP/DTLS/BFCP instead since it does use DTLS? The same reason RTP over DTLS over UDP is called UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVP instead o= f UDP/DTLS/RTP/SAVP -- legacy interop with existing implementations which a= re already using this proto name. Thanks for the quick response Roman. That makes sense. Maybe a note to the = same effect in the draft would be helpful as well. Regards Suresh --_000_B74AEAB356DC4D4B87498AFC4D9D65CDkaloomcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <740AD06C8F6EFE4ABD7913C4F3765BF7@CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Oct 24, 2018, at 4:27 PM, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

Hi Suresh,
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:23 PM Suresh Krishnan <suresh@kaloom.com> wrote:
Similar to Mirja, I was also wondering why UDP/TLS/BFCP is not called
UDP/DTLS/BFCP instead since it does use DTLS?


The same reason RTP over DTLS over UDP is called UDP/TLS/RT= P/SAVP instead of UDP/DTLS/RTP/SAVP -- legacy interop with existing impleme= ntations which are already using this proto name.

Thanks for the quick response Roman. That makes sense. Maybe a note to the = same effect in the draft would be helpful as well.

Regards
Suresh
--_000_B74AEAB356DC4D4B87498AFC4D9D65CDkaloomcom_-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 13:45:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D390128B14 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:45:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id elsoa4sF6pc7 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82EC4128D68 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id s15-v6so6089908lji.3 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:45:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vrRljtZargDuUL1VT8yguWqQEEeBM7RRz0XJDGxzWFU=; b=kUPWA1jYCZWVf3R3MddauoQg8+dC0lqNWt0/cdvAO+P5Ny1RmMsHcR3gDKb7kkF/Ke U71VSsHWgTBc3EWhnA5nSbrOMYImjbL0B82ChponCrD/2qA3eC6mi72s/JgyAW1exjjK u8lXWxLCZZeG9ZhxIOga1MrQdiOVfjSeWPyBSkuy54mHmED+nCU3aeVXPUAVXF3QhrD/ aS0lOIz1sklwHZ+ZFDSf1noxLba7dhej+vGRcst+tSy3/N3LS8gPdGikOsFpvNarWFVf Ez58GWdMb3lVtoGahrNsx/1MFbK85bWVvydW7PDOcHxdM/t49t2kATGEiCtFX2TP0e8w TEzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vrRljtZargDuUL1VT8yguWqQEEeBM7RRz0XJDGxzWFU=; b=qBGXtINdk0M9LliqFAggW/jJ5TIPMiYUgmpoo2eSsqxqSUgQNyeaGJLeBZTogYkJ3g zz02fc66XvyS0Yxl4xreQ/pVMR6feNlEvH4YEDj/D0v8RjohcdKaHNsXgmh9P5ZzlDy0 NDVqz/zMROA/QAO6+pgadoxmSqJgIRFF7+YXjXCvs8kdRjb8Lvaekly7LeBmIHnY4Gfh 7tLCVHmt6SMt2g+OyfGL+5rPEVJhP5ULm1RGgv7uq+1ZNmHSkGIKHecxlyp3Wx+fhoSO gXEDV/RBbfNmTOKUcovTxD7kT/1LKA4z0UfzwvbfAJra3njLwvpuSCh5DJotV5bxxM7w i80A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKBAhD2j1Kl5iHwAv46ZSLab/MRUrCIl78iImzrTnp7yGaHpZKa GbLG5jmpAH/O+juNpdHVkXe5f+wD++g4PE0Apa0DtA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fA+Qik19VepZMU7hlaEj6nBW0w6wsxsYrWh2ZoZnQU5iiwruVCgZK9Ycb2FJWp5O3SQXF3U3ziSmF9wbwqQuA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7017:: with SMTP id l23-v6mr2717615ljc.160.1540413921584; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:44:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, Mary Barnes , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a7fdd0578ff9008" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:45:28 -0000 --0000000000009a7fdd0578ff9008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:12 PM Roman Shpount wrote: > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:54 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:50 PM Roman Shpount wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>>> S 9. >>>> > transport is used for the default candidate, then the 'm' line >>>> proto >>>> > value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. If TCP transport is used for the >>>> > default candidate, the 'm' line proto value MUST be >>>> 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'. >>>> > >>>> > Note: Usage of ICE with protocols other than UDP/TLS/BFCP and >>>> > TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for this specification. >>>> >>>> this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure >>>> it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP >>>> candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that >>>> with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the >>>> negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and >>>> then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and >>>> TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to >>>> do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's >>>> over TCP. >>>> >>>> >>> When ICE is used, DTLS is always used exactly for the reasons you >>> mention. End points only allowed to use 'UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over >>> UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only >>> named 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' instead of 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop >>> reasons, since some implementations apparently already added support for >>> this. Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP as >>> 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as >>> "UDP/RTP/TLS/SAVP". >>> >> >> Ah, I missed this. But then I do wonder whether it's really useful to >> have two proto versions here, rather than just UDP/TLS/BFCP. We didn't find >> it helpful in JSEP.... >> >> > ICE SDP draft still requires a re-INVITE after nomination process is > completed where c= and m= line are updated to reflect the nominated > candidate. If nominated candidate an ICE-TCP candidate, then proto in m= > line would be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' to reflect this. In cases when non ICE-TCP > candidate is used, the proto in m= line will be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. Also, all > subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which do not initiate ICE restart are > supposed to use the proto value of nominated candidate in the m= line. So, > the only reason for existence of 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' proto is to differentiate > if UDP or TCP candidate is used after the nomination. > I don't believe any WebRTC stack does this, and to the best of my knowledge, JSEP does not require it. Moreover, that's not how I read the ICE-SDP draft, at least as far as ICE-bis goes. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-21#section-3.3.4 " However, If the support for 'ice2' ice-option is in use, the nominated candidate is noted and sent in the subsequent offer/answer exchange as the default candidate and no updated offer is needed to fix the default candidate. " How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I was pretty sure > that 'TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were used there for this > purpose, but I could have missed one of the updates. > For DTLS-SRTP, JSEP requires that you generate UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF regardless of the ICE candidates. Similarly, for datachannels, you must generate UDP.DTLS/SCTP. > > Regards, > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > --0000000000009a7fdd0578ff9008 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:12 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 24, 20= 18 at 3:54 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:50= PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla <= ;ekr@rtfm.com> wro= te:
S 9.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transport is used for the default candidate, then = the 'm' line proto
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'.=C2=A0 If TCP= transport is used for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 default candidate, the 'm' line proto valu= e MUST be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note: Usage of ICE with protocols oth= er than UDP/TLS/BFCP and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for= this specification.

this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure
it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP
candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that
with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the
negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and
then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and
TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to<= br> do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's over TCP.


When ICE is used, DTLS is always used = exactly for the reasons you mention.=C2=A0 End points only allowed to use &= #39;UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', = which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only named=C2=A0 'UDP/TLS/BFCP= '=C2=A0instead of=C2=A0 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop reas= ons, since some implementations apparently already added support for this.= =C2=A0 Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP=C2=A0 as 'UDP= /TLS/BFCP'=C2=A0 is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as "U= DP/RTP/TLS/SAVP".

<= /div>
Ah, I missed this. But then I do wonder whether it's really u= seful to have two proto versions here, rather than just UDP/TLS/BFCP. We di= dn't find it helpful in JSEP....


ICE SDP draft still requires a re-INVITE aft= er nomination process is completed where c=3D and m=3D line are updated to = reflect the nominated candidate. If nominated candidate an ICE-TCP candidat= e, then proto in m=3D line would be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' to reflect this= . In cases when non ICE-TCP candidate is used, the proto in m=3D line will = be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. Also, all subsequent offer/answer exchanges, whi= ch do not initiate ICE restart are supposed to use the proto value of nomin= ated candidate in the m=3D line. So, the only reason for existence of '= TCP/DTLS/BFCP' proto is to differentiate if UDP or TCP candidate is use= d after the nomination.

I= don't believe any WebRTC stack does this, and to the best of my knowle= dge, JSEP does not require it.

Moreover, that'= s not how I read the ICE-SDP draft, at least as far as ICE-bis goes.

"
 However, If the support for 'ice2' ice-option is in u=
se, the
   nominated candidate is noted and sent in the subsequent offer/answer
   exchange as the default candidate and no updated offer is needed to
   fix the default candidate.
"



How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I was pretty sure that=C2= =A0'TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were=C2=A0used t= here for this purpose, but I could have missed one of the updates.

For DTLS-SRTP, JSEP requires that= you generate UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF regardless of the ICE candidates. Similarly= , for datachannels, you must generate UDP.DTLS/SCTP.

Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpount
= =C2=A0
--0000000000009a7fdd0578ff9008-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 13:56:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FDD130E19 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:56:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XUPojeI0kRPa for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ACF6128D68 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id f8-v6so2900040pgq.5 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:56:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qeSiJGk0+EwN9pk5zNk7UX+fFMxRePxlz2uusUGxDoY=; b=YIEqcEo8EhzhjP++5/i5XNLuM5wnWmP3QR+z++qk0fHbekxymhQlCsMGbLvFrPd2sh aqi0nOdhepL8FwDp506oixIO5KJy83Gz/+ZXpmhTqyVDI+U7M6zYBWgEe9M55LJA9W6j NFB0/r0QIY+aGhiKnfPoKhDLQM9Rr2IGNJEV58+SyikSJJOea4CkcV89JsJl9bMd3NEu Oi9NzS5toj1faZ8yFTfkmJVZmfl9KXrXsDybhNbrU4Abgb+IRlB+ka4IIHC7k2dFF9Lk ERdpDFPpcwxsbHUS3hsjLK6ZCExRhE3JAa0ZF7zR9tE3ucXinUPDQvYxmZWdX0frFeuG t8Fg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qeSiJGk0+EwN9pk5zNk7UX+fFMxRePxlz2uusUGxDoY=; b=G//Q8OPdwwUB2o13dBlehxMws0cbp5+RwPHeER06/thfGxuD1AAgjFjHeZ+KKIX+im +pNREdrqwWAgFADJmBss5nKoHi+KNUlw5Nb3k48DmT56GW+bPnXjLnhXezoJbx9UZPyH eBfFSPglAQ+fNrUxB7UYcmbMjmL8siUK4m6EmsHhAxxkO80NbgtL9jtlvXYkbTFM1VNv UJC9O6INhyskYyvCv/L7BesFUwF1dv4WD+ljAyKD6WjM4BHSC4awo6ZL9Xt2JWadZYHR udIU3vMkD81yFDGDJtPwPBY+6ppzVW/ET70OAPrYiv3RtqXDVzbAuB3WxxyflJ6iF5Vo 1NEg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLHQEUCb5stoSD6bA3ckGM3JLaZbYRlafIqA0zhx6S/UayhNAwK Mi8lrIMjnDpHPM/SYLNk7hH6wQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fe/WdK1Ob1BHxTh7ibtI3ybuGTltYFSFj30Q8yDzeaPRFnhyR6hjujaYWlyYqWiWiNGV+teQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:bd01:: with SMTP id a1-v6mr3982310pgf.58.1540414561097; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-f178.google.com (mail-pl1-f178.google.com. [209.85.214.178]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p7-v6sm7245795pfb.101.2018.10.24.13.56.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-f178.google.com with SMTP id p5-v6so2790061plq.8; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:56:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8c86:: with SMTP id t6-v6mr3947746plo.55.1540414560007; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:56:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:55:48 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, Mary Barnes , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a7fd580578ffb691" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:56:04 -0000 --000000000000a7fd580578ffb691 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Eric, On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:45 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:12 PM Roman Shpount wrote: > >> ICE SDP draft still requires a re-INVITE after nomination process is >> completed where c= and m= line are updated to reflect the nominated >> candidate. If nominated candidate an ICE-TCP candidate, then proto in m= >> line would be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' to reflect this. In cases when non ICE-TCP >> candidate is used, the proto in m= line will be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. Also, all >> subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which do not initiate ICE restart are >> supposed to use the proto value of nominated candidate in the m= line. So, >> the only reason for existence of 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' proto is to differentiate >> if UDP or TCP candidate is used after the nomination. >> > > I don't believe any WebRTC stack does this, and to the best of my > knowledge, JSEP does not require it. > > Moreover, that's not how I read the ICE-SDP draft, at least as far as > ICE-bis goes. > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-21#section-3.3.4 > > " > > However, If the support for 'ice2' ice-option is in use, the > nominated candidate is noted and sent in the subsequent offer/answer > exchange as the default candidate and no updated offer is needed to > fix the default candidate. > " > > Updated offer is still present when ice2 is not used. When ice2 is used, nominated candidate still ends us as default candidate in the subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which means ICE-TCP candidate ends up in the m= line. > How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I was pretty sure >> that 'TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were used there for this >> purpose, but I could have missed one of the updates. >> > > For DTLS-SRTP, JSEP requires that you generate UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF > regardless of the ICE candidates. Similarly, for datachannels, you must > generate UDP.DTLS/SCTP. > I think this only covers the initial offer, but not the subsequent exchanges. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --000000000000a7fd580578ffb691 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eric,

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:45 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:12 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
=
ICE SDP draft still requires a re-INVITE after nominatio= n process is completed where c=3D and m=3D line are updated to reflect the = nominated candidate. If nominated candidate an ICE-TCP candidate, then prot= o in m=3D line would be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' to reflect this. In cases w= hen non ICE-TCP candidate is used, the proto in m=3D line will be 'UDP/= TLS/BFCP'. Also, all subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which do not in= itiate ICE restart are supposed to use the proto value of nominated candida= te in the m=3D line. So, the only reason for existence of 'TCP/DTLS/BFC= P' proto is to differentiate if UDP or TCP candidate is used after the = nomination.

I don'= ;t believe any WebRTC stack does this, and to the best of my knowledge, JSE= P does not require it.

Moreover, that's not ho= w I read the ICE-SDP draft, at least as far as ICE-bis goes.

"
 However, If the support for &#=
39;ice2' ice-option is in use, the
   nominated candidate is noted and sent in the subsequent offer/answer
   exchange as the default candidate and no updated offer is needed to
   fix the default candidate.
"
Updated offer is stil= l present when ice2 is not used.

When ice= 2 is used, nominated candidate still ends us as default candidate in the su= bsequent offer/answer exchanges, which means ICE-TCP candidate ends up in t= he m=3D line.
=C2=A0
How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I was pretty sure that=C2=A0&= #39;TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were=C2=A0used there= for this purpose, but I could have missed one of the updates.
<= /div>

For DTLS-SRTP, JSEP requires that you= generate UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF regardless of the ICE candidates. Similarly, fo= r datachannels, you must generate UDP.DTLS/SCTP.

I think this only covers the initial off= er, but not the subsequent exchanges.

Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpount=C2=A0=C2=A0=
--000000000000a7fd580578ffb691-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 17:18:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietf.org Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E603126CC7; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:18:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154042672428.6988.18020634608915878362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:18:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 00:18:45 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I will go ahead and say that we should discuss the "UDP/TLS/BFCP" naming. In particular, while I see the previous discussion that there may be existing deployments out there, why can we not give it the same treatment as "mstrm", and make the official name "UDP/DTLS/BFCP" while documenting that you should accept the old name? We also had a very long discussion about the usage of the term "initial offer" in the context of draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation; I do not propose to rehash that discussion, but want to ask whether we should stick to the established precedent with regard to the use of the term (which, IIUC, would involve a change to this document). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 4 m= ... The media field MUST have a value of "application". This is "For BFCP streams, the media field MUST have a value of application", right? I might just swap the "This section describes [...]" paragraph to be after the exerpt from RFC4566 to avoid confusion. The fmt (format) list is not applicable to BFCP. The fmt list of 'm' lines in the case of any proto field value related to BFCP MUST contain a single "*" character. If the the fmt list contains any other value it is ignored. The fmt list is ignored, or the whole m= line (and section)? Section 5.1 The interpretation of the "c-s" value is not mentioned prior to the table in which it appears, which kind of leaves the reader hanging. (But I guess that is still a style matter, so I should have no say on it.) Table 1 could probably benefit from some discussion of how it is applied, since (e.g.) an offer could include both c-only and c-s, and if the answere includes s-only, the offerer needs to know which role it is performing. It seems like this would be "the offerer proceeds through the following table, and if the offer and answer included the values present in the current line of the table, that line is a match and determines what role the offerer will use". (This would be a DISCUSS but I am not convinced that there is a way to actually do the wrong thing as an implementation.) Endpoints compliant with [RFC4583] might not include the 'floorctrl' attribute in offers and answerer. If the 'floorctrl' attribute is not present the offerer will act as floor control client, and the answerer will act as floor control server. I assume this is going to be backwards compatible, but it might be worth explicitly saying so. Section 5.4, 5.5 I'd go with "decimal integer representation" for consistency with the preceding sections. Section 7 Note: When using Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC8445], TCP/DTLS/BFCP, and UDP/TLS/BFCP, the straight-forward procedures for connection management as UDP/BFCP described above apply. [...] nit: this sentence as written applies only when all three of ICE, TCP/DTLS/BFCP, and UDP/TLS/BFCP apply (which is nonsensical). I assume the intended grouping is: (1) ICE is used, and (2) either TCP/DTLS/BFCP or UDP/TLS/BFCP is used. Section 8 When TLS is used with TCP, once the underlying connection is established, the answerer always acts as the TLS server. If the TCP connection is lost, the active endpoint is responsible for re- establishing the TCP connection. Unless a new TLS session is negotiated, subsequent SDP offers and answers will not impact the previously negotiated TLS roles. IMPORTANT: "TLS session" is a term of art, and is in fact nonsensical here. I think that you mean "TLS connection" or maybe "TLS handshake". Section 10 If the 'm' line 'proto' value is 'TCP/TLS/BFCP', 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' or 'UDP/TLS/BFCP', the offerer and answerer follow the generic procedures defined in [RFC8122]. Why is 8122 the reference even for the DLTS values (as opposed to mmusic-dtls-sdp)? Section 10.2 So the answerer can indicate multiple BFCP versions in the bfcpver attribute and is not using that attribute to indicate the selected BFCP version in use? A ref to RFC 4145 for the 'active' endpoint might be helpful. Section 10.3 The "Note" is indented as if it is part of the list, but it should not be part of the list. Section 10.4 When an offerer sends an updated offer, in order to modify a My knowledge of SDP is rusty (and was sparse to begin with), but can't the answerer also send a mid-session offer to start renegotiation of various parameters? That is, it is not just the offerer that can send an offer during an existing session. Section 12 It's probably worth noting explicitly that the non-(D)TLS proto values offer neither integrity protection nor confidentiality protection to the BFCP stream. An attacker able to view the SDP exchanges can determine which media flows contain which content, which could exacerbate existing metadata leakage channels in some circumstances. As Ekr notes in his comment, the potential for privacy considerations relating to the various identifiers transmitted in the session description should be discussed. If the various integer IDs are just local to the physical premises (even better if they're periodically randomized!), the impact is going to be fairly limited, but should still be covered. Section 14 2. Authentication (Section 8): In last paragraph, made clear that a TCP connection was described. I'm rather confused at what this is attempting to describe. From nobody Wed Oct 24 19:05:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAC712F1A6 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:05:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U1fZxHDEswDo for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com (mail-lf1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4BFD126BED for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id p11-v6so5499345lfc.6 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:05:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=apF5W68Bko4eWT/O7SeIwleNMHVfFNcKQ+lRBFrHNwk=; b=XQVwpIcpJjAofvExkBaUyAJ+qnF0RSgrmNrOHkQm3H7mCV2nNHxXSOn/XmjCZlszh1 cWc3UE0buh9+uj9xAa3TdMCQqNtrBBUuGknsGjhYsmurzQt+LquVYWDdI9ZrfnkCw1rN 53x6cflNg4Y+CJ0vwlv0FJO95m1U+tIOcoiBEWpZVPpJNIqgGABD06AoT7CzFFq7oaSq p0cXKEuoWDEjG2o/wXTsR7Yr25lmjhLZc+18TPME+/Yv8EDGohEsDkSCthORV61HzrZs t3uxBpSUAI9wEyrldWlEb6vADy/y7HyNyzgje4MZLJk57bOt+FZvVJ+6Jcb8kjquAC12 8OyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=apF5W68Bko4eWT/O7SeIwleNMHVfFNcKQ+lRBFrHNwk=; b=YFrSSRQf+Zw7z2QBs4slDDagE3TNCCQuc1o6xfp6vKklwJxO7NTJ2ExtMJrVV9E7J+ gQp9Z00KG8IOjbLru3pV9QiIielBvNdpyRHKng65Xv7JR0f7wqEXdTeMz9+t30RiA68v Ce1NbdjqwyL9z2oJxLQ7EdSf0+rbzSHQeUc0+B0CevebB71FRquCghcVD4Qe97HbexeM 5ypff3Ct4H8ufxzCB5qzVqHHhCjeXuNbAAq+KHxC28n/Clg0CtPcwYvj3aDXExItfVvA YWaRqNuJs8oXdAUR2q6MmNZgsw8QNUOfQFgYZRtgQRrhT4sH4r96m0+c5JIDgW4vstAk jjUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIEyLoTMA5HjXZlxgiziuYXDDr2cFGGLcSvMbho6+rf8ZX+bgZW Ea7IGZoTpODFALyAVXfhI989W0sRRYr4v34OLyIjww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fXh0f5Ha/xavxXC/jllmXR4tPRHdxhNZ1269Rtusn1jsy3TvanutNko1nZ9yk3EaGt9zIxtgagDygtvRLJN9U= X-Received: by 2002:a19:11c2:: with SMTP id 63mr81046lfr.131.1540433127978; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:05:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:04:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, Mary Barnes , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064ce8605790409f3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 02:05:32 -0000 --00000000000064ce8605790409f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:56 PM Roman Shpount wrote: > Hi Eric, > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:45 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:12 PM Roman Shpount wrote: >> >>> ICE SDP draft still requires a re-INVITE after nomination process is >>> completed where c= and m= line are updated to reflect the nominated >>> candidate. If nominated candidate an ICE-TCP candidate, then proto in m= >>> line would be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' to reflect this. In cases when non ICE-TCP >>> candidate is used, the proto in m= line will be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. Also, all >>> subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which do not initiate ICE restart are >>> supposed to use the proto value of nominated candidate in the m= line. So, >>> the only reason for existence of 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' proto is to differentiate >>> if UDP or TCP candidate is used after the nomination. >>> >> >> I don't believe any WebRTC stack does this, and to the best of my >> knowledge, JSEP does not require it. >> >> Moreover, that's not how I read the ICE-SDP draft, at least as far as >> ICE-bis goes. >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-21#section-3.3.4 >> >> " >> >> However, If the support for 'ice2' ice-option is in use, the >> nominated candidate is noted and sent in the subsequent offer/answer >> exchange as the default candidate and no updated offer is needed to >> fix the default candidate. >> " >> >> Updated offer is still present when ice2 is not used. > > When ice2 is used, nominated candidate still ends us as default candidate > in the subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which means ICE-TCP candidate > ends up in the m= line. > For the same reasons as JSEP is going to reference ICE-bis, you should do so here, and just punt this problem. > How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I was pretty sure >>> that 'TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were used there for this >>> purpose, but I could have missed one of the updates. >>> >> >> For DTLS-SRTP, JSEP requires that you generate UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF >> regardless of the ICE candidates. Similarly, for datachannels, you must >> generate UDP.DTLS/SCTP. >> > > I think this only covers the initial offer, but not the subsequent > exchanges. > Well, sort of: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/854 -Ekr > Regards, > _____________ > Roman Shpount > --00000000000064ce8605790409f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:56 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
=
Hi Eric,

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:45 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
=
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:12 PM= Roman Shpount <r= oman@telurix.com> wrote:
ICE SDP draft still requires a re-INVITE after= nomination process is completed where c=3D and m=3D line are updated to re= flect the nominated candidate. If nominated candidate an ICE-TCP candidate,= then proto in m=3D line would be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' to reflect this. = In cases when non ICE-TCP candidate is used, the proto in m=3D line will be= 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'. Also, all subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which= do not initiate ICE restart are supposed to use the proto value of nominat= ed candidate in the m=3D line. So, the only reason for existence of 'TC= P/DTLS/BFCP' proto is to differentiate if UDP or TCP candidate is used = after the nomination.

I don't believe any WebRTC stack does this, and to the best of my know= ledge, JSEP does not require it.

Moreover, that= 9;s not how I read the ICE-SDP draft, at least as far as ICE-bis goes.
<= /div>

"= 
 However, If the support for 'ice2' ic=
e-option is in use, the
   nominated candidate is noted and sent in the subsequent offer/answer
   exchange as the default candidate and no updated offer is needed to
   fix the default candidate.
"
Updated offer is stil= l present when ice2 is not used.

When ice= 2 is used, nominated candidate still ends us as default candidate in the su= bsequent offer/answer exchanges, which means ICE-TCP candidate ends up in t= he m=3D line.

For t= he same reasons as JSEP is going to reference ICE-bis, you should do so her= e, and just punt this problem.


How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I was pretty sure that=C2=A0&= #39;TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were=C2=A0used there= for this purpose, but I could have missed one of the updates.
<= /div>

For DTLS-SRTP, JSEP requires that you= generate UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF regardless of the ICE candidates. Similarly, fo= r datachannels, you must generate UDP.DTLS/SCTP.

I think this only covers the initial off= er, but not the subsequent exchanges.
<= div>
<= div>
-Ekr



Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpo= unt=C2=A0=C2=A0
--00000000000064ce8605790409f3-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 19:36:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88EF2130E0A; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqVborYC6ftZ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BFB5130DDF; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.27] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9P2aDof026796 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 21:36:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.27] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <37400FF7-D75F-4471-ADDB-1005AFA1B401@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_547865ED-C9C2-4E81-B50F-87DAF16695DA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 21:36:13 -0500 In-Reply-To: <154042672428.6988.18020634608915878362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: The IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org To: Benjamin Kaduk References: <154042672428.6988.18020634608915878362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 02:36:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_547865ED-C9C2-4E81-B50F-87DAF16695DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 24, 2018, at 7:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: Discuss >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 [...] > We also had a very long discussion about the usage of the term = "initial > offer" in the context of draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation; I = do not > propose to rehash that discussion, but want to ask whether we should = stick > to the established precedent with regard to the use of the term = (which, > IIUC, would involve a change to this document). >=20 IIRC* subsequent discussion in MMUSIC decided that the important thing = was to be clear on how you use the term. * It=E2=80=99s entirely possible I do not. i think that was during the = power failure, and I may have been distracted :-) [...] --Apple-Mail=_547865ED-C9C2-4E81-B50F-87DAF16695DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; 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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local (c-73-144-37-121.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [73.144.37.121]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id w9P3MFmr002271 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:22:16 -0400 To: bfcpbis@ietf.org References: <154035070053.31341.6116940266640654293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02154bdb-ef66-d30b-82af-f650fe7d8f7c@nostrum.com> <7A716789-DFD1-4D5D-9225-5DFFFE4A740D@nostrum.com> From: Paul Kyzivat Message-ID: <2eee0fd6-9d51-e5dd-90c1-4aa190c99a62@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:22:15 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7A716789-DFD1-4D5D-9225-5DFFFE4A740D@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixO6iqPvS7GK0wfvH7Bb/1h1lcmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxp11P1gL/qlVfPvzn7GB8bx8FyMnh4SAicT1qS8Yuxi5OIQE DjJJXLp9mxEkISTwh0li055KEFtYIF+i71oDC4gtIiAisWPWRVaImkVMEscus4PYbAJaEnMO /Qer4RWwl1j1/BBYnEVAVeLHkZdgcVGBNIm/nUsYIWoEJU7OfAIW5wSqX3PyNlg9s4CZxLzN D5khbHGJW0/mM0HY8hLNW2czT2Dkn4WkfRaSlllIWmYhaVnAyLKKUS4xpzRXNzcxM6c4NVm3 ODkxLy+1SNdMLzezRC81pXQTIyQohXYwrj8pd4hRgINRiYf3xIYL0UKsiWXFlbmHGCU5mJRE eReKXIwW4kvKT6nMSCzOiC8qzUktPsQowcGsJMJ7jwcox5uSWFmVWpQPk5LmYFES52U22Rsl JJCeWJKanZpakFoEk5Xh4FCS4FUFRp+QYFFqempFWmZOCUKaiYMTZDgP0PA3piDDiwsSc4sz 0yHypxgVpcR5FUGaBUASGaV5cL2wpPGKURzoFWHeEJB2HmDCget+BTSYCWjwDIULIINLEhFS Ug2MUzW2JO26qPWchzVkwZFDyfxp6lpexmfPL3bJFVovsUB4Qp/etA/+rNe7vJ9fWrJ1xrev ZV8FzrBWbpp4jnfb55sydeec6y5VCLq/1hb5UbPwSUT+yX7XxVceXmx7w83zSs/h5Q2RvVXi J7nKpFZM97aa2fFW4MKcfXMcnrcxneudw525YWFUpxJLcUaioRZzUXEiAF9PAQb1AgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 03:22:26 -0000 On 10/24/18 12:20 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > On a re-read of mux-attributes, I’m going to have to partially agree and partially disagree with Christer :-) > > Mux-attributes does use “TBD" for attributes for protocols that have no specification for how to multiplex, and includes explicit notes to that effect. I find this counter-intuitive, and counter to the definition of TBD that Christer cited. Saying that attributes have not been analyzed is very different from saying the related protocol doesn’t specify multiplexing. In the latter case, it seems more reasonable to say that we _have_ analyzed the attribute and decided you shouldn’t bundle it. Well... ISTM that the analysis, while possibly started, hasn't been completed - it has been deferred to a future document. So it really is TBD. Of course there is currently no plan to produce such a document. But I think one *could* be done, and it seems like it would be quite useful when the media subject to floor control is itself bundled. Thanks, Paul > The definition for CAUTION includes an example of a protocol that cannot be multiplexed, so that seem more fitting. But CAUTION is also a bit counter-intuitive. > > An additional issue is that the only change that 4566bis allows for existing mux-category registrations is to change it from TBD to something else. That seems makes TBD the only choice for non mux-able protocols unless we want to prevent any future revision from becoming mux-able. > > So at this point, I can’t really say that 4583bis is using TBD incorrectly because it follows the practice, if not the definition, from mux-attributes. I would like to get some clarification of the intent in mux-attributes; We should probably include MMUSIC in this discussion; I will send a separate email there that summarized the issue for people for people who haven’t followed this thread. > > > On a related note, I noticed that mux-attributes defines all of the existing BFCP related attributes as “NORMAL” except for floorctrl, which is “TBD”. 4583bis lists them all as “TBD”. Which is correct? > > Thanks! > > Ben. > >> On Oct 24, 2018, at 3:31 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I am not sure I agree that "TBD" is a free pass. >> >> The definition of "TBD" is: >> >> "The attributes in the TBD category have not been analyzed under the proposed multiplexing framework and SHOULD NOT be multiplexed." >> >> Now, the WG decided, as is reflected in Section 6, that we are not going to define how BFCP streams are multiplexed/bundled in this spec, and that further analysis would be needed in a separate specification. One could of course claim that the decision not to define multiplexing was done based on an analysis __ >> >> I don't think we can use "special", because at least in my understanding it means that multiplexing IS possible, but there are special considerations etc that needs to be taken into account. >> >> I am not sure whether "caution" is suitable either, because it is not whether one should multiplex or not - how to multiplex is not defined to begin with. However, I guess "caution" is the only alternative if "TBD" doesn't work. >> >> Also keep in mind that, IF someone later defines how to multiplex, we probably would have to change the value. >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> >> >> On 24/10/2018, 6.39, "Ben Campbell" wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Oct 23, 2018, at 10:22 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >>> >>> On 10/23/18 10:11 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>> Ideally, I think that this draft should assign a "real" mux category for each >>>> attribute in it. Failing that, it at least needs to do so for "bfcpver". I'm >>>> guessing that should be "caution" or "special". (Perhaps unfortunately, >>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes did not define a category of "nope":-) ) >>> >>> >>> Right. My reading of this was that these attributes must not be multiplexed. And the only category that the SDP mux attributes document defined for "do not multiplex" was "TBD". Are you proposing that this document define a new MUX category that says "do not multiplex”? >> >> Not really; I’m just kind of wishing that mux-attributes had done so. “TBD” does mean “do not multiplex”, but it has connotations that this is because we haven’t gotten around to determining if it is safe, not that we have determined that it is unsafe. >> >>> Or merely that it says that the category is "special," and that the special considerations are "do not multiplex”? >> >> That’s one approach. There’s also “caution”, which means something to the effect of “you really shouldn’t multiplex this”. >> >>> >>> /a >>> >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > bfcpbis mailing list > bfcpbis@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis > From nobody Wed Oct 24 23:49:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBCBB12D4E6 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:48:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.878 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.878 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ksmYPoquBVCi for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B39F9130DD0 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.attlocal.net (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9P6mkhb067522 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 25 Oct 2018 01:48:47 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.attlocal.net To: Eric Rescorla , Roman Shpount Cc: Mary Barnes , bfcpbis@ietf.org, IESG , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org References: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 01:48:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------99EEC28040AE6708AC754050" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:48:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------99EEC28040AE6708AC754050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/24/18 2:53 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:50 PM Roman Shpount > wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > Since I have helped with ICE related sections of this draft, I can > provide answers to some of your comments: > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla > wrote: > > S 9. > >      transport is used for the default candidate, then the > 'm' line proto > >      value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'.  If TCP transport is used > for the > >      default candidate, the 'm' line proto value MUST be > 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'. > > > >         Note: Usage of ICE with protocols other than > UDP/TLS/BFCP and > >         TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for this > specification. > > this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure > it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP > candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason > is that > with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the > negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP > candidate and > then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). > DTLS and > TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far > better to > do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even > if it's > over TCP. > > > When ICE is used, DTLS is always used exactly for the reasons you > mention.  End points only allowed to use 'UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is > DTLS over UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS > over UDP is only named 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' instead of  'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' > for legacy interop reasons, since some implementations apparently > already added support for this.  Please note that naming of BFCP > over DTLS over UDP  as 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'  is similar to naming RTP > over DTLS over UDP as "UDP/RTP/TLS/SAVP". > > > Ah, I missed this. But then I do wonder whether it's really useful to > have two proto versions here, rather than just UDP/TLS/BFCP. We didn't > find it helpful in JSEP.... > The rationale here is that this approach -- matching the proto to the default candidate -- allows for compatibility with clients that do not do ICE. JSEP and WebRTC took an explicit decision to require ICE, and to fail with clients that do not implement it. As a consequence, there's a lot of simplifications of handling the proto field in WebRTC that are broadly inapplicable outside of that ecosystem. /a --------------99EEC28040AE6708AC754050 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 10/24/18 2:53 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:


On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 12:50 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
Hi Eric,

Since I have helped with ICE related sections of this draft, I can provide answers to some of your comments:

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:23 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
S 9.
>      transport is used for the default candidate, then the 'm' line proto
>      value MUST be 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'.  If TCP transport is used for the
>      default candidate, the 'm' line proto value MUST be 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP'.
>   
>         Note: Usage of ICE with protocols other than UDP/TLS/BFCP and
>         TCP/DTLS/BFCP is outside of scope for this specification.

this is very different from any other use of ICE, and I'm not sure
it's interoperable, unless you require that only TCP or only UDP
candidates be offered (which you do not seem to). The reason is that
with ICE you can flip between different candidates as part of the
negotiation. So what happens if I initially get a UDP candidate and
then via aggressive nomination settle on TCP (or vice versa). DTLS and
TLS aren't really interoperable in that way. It would be far better to
do what WebRTC does and when you do ICE, always do DTLS even if it's
over TCP.


When ICE is used, DTLS is always used exactly for the reasons you mention.  End points only allowed to use 'UDP/TLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over UDP, or 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP', which is DTLS over TCP. DTLS over UDP is only named  'UDP/TLS/BFCP' instead of  'UDP/DTLS/BFCP' for legacy interop reasons, since some implementations apparently already added support for this.  Please note that naming of BFCP over DTLS over UDP  as 'UDP/TLS/BFCP'  is similar to naming RTP over DTLS over UDP as "UDP/RTP/TLS/SAVP".

Ah, I missed this. But then I do wonder whether it's really useful to have two proto versions here, rather than just UDP/TLS/BFCP. We didn't find it helpful in JSEP....


The rationale here is that this approach -- matching the proto to the default candidate -- allows for compatibility with clients that do not do ICE. JSEP and WebRTC took an explicit decision to require ICE, and to fail with clients that do not implement it. As a consequence, there's a lot of simplifications of handling the proto field in WebRTC that are broadly inapplicable outside of that ecosystem.

/a

--------------99EEC28040AE6708AC754050-- From nobody Wed Oct 24 23:50:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE21B12D7EA; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:50:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lhsu_nguKe0A; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83FC812D4E6; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.attlocal.net (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9P6o4jt067741 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 25 Oct 2018 01:50:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.attlocal.net To: Ben Campbell , Benjamin Kaduk Cc: mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org References: <154042672428.6988.18020634608915878362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <37400FF7-D75F-4471-ADDB-1005AFA1B401@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <6764e3b0-4533-cc6f-83f1-773879dc75c7@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 01:49:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37400FF7-D75F-4471-ADDB-1005AFA1B401@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:50:09 -0000 On 10/24/18 9:36 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > >> On Oct 24, 2018, at 7:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >> >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > [...] > >> We also had a very long discussion about the usage of the term "initial >> offer" in the context of draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation; I do not >> propose to rehash that discussion, but want to ask whether we should stick >> to the established precedent with regard to the use of the term (which, >> IIUC, would involve a change to this document). >> > IIRC* subsequent discussion in MMUSIC decided that the important thing was to be clear on how you use the term. > > * It’s entirely possible I do not. i think that was during the power failure, and I may have been distracted :-) That matches my memory. /a From nobody Wed Oct 24 23:53:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B02112F18C; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eD72k0_dhM_5; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E822912D4F2; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.attlocal.net (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9P6rFoB068282 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 25 Oct 2018 01:53:16 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.attlocal.net To: Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG Cc: bfcpbis@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org References: <154042672428.6988.18020634608915878362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <7f8ac9fd-0a02-56dd-080d-a16a105e4b99@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 01:53:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <154042672428.6988.18020634608915878362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:53:20 -0000 On 10/24/18 7:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I will go ahead and say that we should discuss the "UDP/TLS/BFCP" naming. > In particular, while I see the previous discussion that there may be > existing deployments out there, why can we not give it the same treatment > as "mstrm", and make the official name "UDP/DTLS/BFCP" while documenting > that you should accept the old name? That would cause unrecoverable errors when a new client sends an offer to a legacy client. That's a pretty bad backwards-compatibility story. I get why the current value is ugly, but I don't think making new clients fail to talk to old ones is a fair price for aesthetic adjustments. /a From nobody Thu Oct 25 00:15:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74039130DDC for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 00:15:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=EXnNLFz5; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=LUzzHzEr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) 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"bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" , "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUat7eI+OR1/BlNUK3zXdGiyQsy6Us/DCAgAGDKACAAP4KgA== Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 08:11:27 +0000 Message-ID: <88155F74-AD6B-42AF-8673-32A62B310AC2@cisco.com> References: <154030585039.31329.18322462801147959846.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <61BE0678-922A-4E73-BBCA-0CFAC21000B7@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.3.181015 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.109.158] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1E92B26A55A06B4083C6B18505488080@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.28, xch-rcd-018.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com 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173.37.102.29, xch-rcd-019.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 08:23:10 -0000 --_000_395D6700CC5145038DB5D2334CBCF7D8ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpGcm9tOiBTdXJlc2ggS3Jpc2huYW4gPHN1cmVzaEBrYWxvb20uY29tPg0KRGF0ZTogV2VkbmVz ZGF5LCBPY3RvYmVyIDI0LCAyMDE4IGF0IDk6MzMgUE0NClRvOiBSb21hbiBTaHBvdW50IDxyb21h bkB0ZWx1cml4LmNvbT4NCkNjOiBNYXJ5IEJhcm5lcyA8bWFyeS5pZXRmLmJhcm5lc0BnbWFpbC5j b20+LCAiYmZjcGJpc0BpZXRmLm9yZyIgPGJmY3BiaXNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+LCBJRVNHIDxpZXNnQGll dGYub3JnPiwgImRyYWZ0LWlldGYtYmZjcGJpcy1yZmM0NTgzYmlzQGlldGYub3JnIiA8ZHJhZnQt 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pnqmmnvfR-gq; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 03:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B93ED1277BB; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 03:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ict-networks-2001-067c-10ec-52c8-8000-0000-0000-0ab1.fwd-v6.ethz.ch ([2001:67c:10ec:52c8:8000::ab1]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1gFcoy-0008F4-8z; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:24:56 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" In-Reply-To: <1CDBF82F-6AE4-4A50-ADB8-C0E70507BF1B@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:24:54 +0200 Cc: The IESG , "bfcpbis@ietf.org" , "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" , "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org" , "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3615355E-38F8-4827-802D-4B1BCC5AE03B@kuehlewind.net> References: <154039268936.6939.17214783198090812411.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1CDBF82F-6AE4-4A50-ADB8-C0E70507BF1B@ericsson.com> To: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1540463099;49d225fc; X-HE-SMSGID: 1gFcoy-0008F4-8z Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 10:25:02 -0000 Hi Christer, thanks for you reply. Please so the right thing in addressing any points = in the draft as needed. As few minor additional comments below. > Am 24.10.2018 um 18:05 schrieb Christer Holmberg = : >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > Thank You for the review! Please see inline. >=20 >> 1) Section 4: >> =E2=80=9EThis is one of the options when ICE is used (Section = 9).=E2=80=9C >> Maybe you can make this sentence slightly more specific because = that was one >> thing I was wondering about all the time until I read 9 (why = TCP/DTLS/BFCP is >> needed), e.g. =E2=80=9EThis is one of the options where when ICE is = used only one DTLS >> session is established but there are candidate pairs for UDP and = TCP (Section >> 9).=E2=80=9C >>=20 >> Also why is 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' not called 'UDP/DTLS/BFCP=E2=80=98? >=20 > It's mainly for backward compatibility reasons (this draft has been = around for many years, and have been implemented and deployed), because = for some reasons people thought 'UDP/TLS/BFCP' was correct at some = point.=20 >=20 > I guess someone else may have more information, because I don't = remember the details of the discussions that took place at the time. Okay. I guess that could be noted in the draft but it doesn=E2=80=99t = have to. >=20 > --- >=20 >> 2) Section 6 provides multiplexing considerations for bfcpver, = however all >> other attributes also have a Mux Category: TBD. When will these be = defined? >=20 > Whenever someone defines how to multiplex BFCP streams with other = streams.=20 >=20 > The WG decided not to do that within 4583bis, because nobody saw any = need for that. It at least looks confusing to have a TBD in the doc. But I guess you = have to further discuss this with Ben. >=20 > --- >=20 >> 3) Section 7.1: Sorry for the lack of understanding here, but why = does the >> reconnecting endpoint need to send a new offer at all, instead of = just >> re-opening a new TCP connection with the same parameters as before? >=20 > That is how it has been defined for TCP negotiated using SDP = offer/answer, in RFC 4145: you always signal when you want to establish = a connection (even if it is re-establishing a previous connection). Okay.. >=20 > --- >=20 >> 4) Section 8: >> =E2=80=9EIf the TCP connection is lost, the active endpoint is = responsible for re- >> establishing the TCP connection.=E2=80=9C >> What does active mean here? >=20 > The active endpoint is responsible for initiating the TCP connection. = It is defined in RFC 4145, and we should add a reference. Yes, thanks! >=20 >> Also in section 10.2 and 10.3 'active' is used a well but with = quotes, however, it is never really defined. >=20 > See above regarding the definition/reference. >=20 > The quotes should be removed, because the text is not talking about a = value. >=20 > --- >=20 >> 5) Section 8: >> =E2=80=9EUnless a new TLS session is >> negotiated, subsequent SDP offers and answers will not impact = the >> previously negotiated TLS roles.=E2=80=9C >> Quick question: Does that mean that when the TCP connection breaks = and is >> re-opened, there is no new TLS handshake? >=20 > When the TLS connection is established, the answerer acts as TLS = server. However, in subsequent offer/answer transactions both endpoint = can act as answerer, and the text simply clarifies that the TLS roles = don't change just because the offerer/answerer roles change. >=20 > The text does not change the TLS procedures, so if a new handshake is = needed then it will be sent. >=20 > --- >=20 >> 6) Section 10.4: >> =E2=80=9Eif the offerer >> does not want to re-establish an existing TCP connection, the >> offerer MUST associate an SDP 'connection' attribute with a = value >> of "existing", with the 'm' line;=E2=80=9C >> Just double-checking: Is this correct that If the offerer does NOT = what to use >> the existing TCP connection, it adds the =E2=80=9Eexisting=E2=80=9C = attribute=E2=80=A6? >=20 > No, the other way around: if the offerer DOES want to use the existing = TCP connection, it adds 'existing=E2=80=98. Okay, that makes more sense :-). I think the use of the word = "re-establish" is really confusing here. What about =E2=80=9Eif the offerer wants to re-use an existing TCP = connection=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9C? Mirja >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Oct 25 04:20:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E22A130DE7; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 04:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char 9C hex): Received: ...s kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)\n\t\234by outgoing.mit[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iPhKQGhKTFEB; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 04:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-2.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-2.mit.edu [18.9.25.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66617127333; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 04:20:11 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1209190d-d9dff70000002e21-c7-5bd1a6ea1e8c Received: from mailhub-auth-1.mit.edu ( [18.9.21.35]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-2.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 4F.1D.11809.AE6A1DB5; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 07:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH-1.MIT.EDU [18.9.28.11]) by mailhub-auth-1.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.9.2) with ESMTP id w9PBK8if013541; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 07:20:09 -0400 Received: from kduck.kaduk.org (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id w9PBK4DY027595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 25 Oct 2018 07:20:06 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:20:03 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Adam Roach Cc: The IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: <20181025112003.GX45914@kduck.kaduk.org> References: <154042672428.6988.18020634608915878362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7f8ac9fd-0a02-56dd-080d-a16a105e4b99@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7f8ac9fd-0a02-56dd-080d-a16a105e4b99@nostrum.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmplleLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IR4hRV1n217GK0wcIDGhZ7/i5it/i48BuL xb91R5ksule8ZbeY8Wcis8Xn/fuZHdg8ds66y+6xZMlPJo9ZO5+wBDBHcdmkpOZklqUW6dsl cGUc3v6KseAqR8XbGQfZGxhb2bsYOTkkBEwkLq78wdLFyMUhJLCGSWLZ8cVQzkZGiZ/fZzFD OHeZJJ78ecgC0sIioCrxafZlMJtNQEWiofsyM4gtIqAo0Xb4JlgDs8AURokvJxczgiSEBdIl Jm2fAZTg4OAF2vfrlCTE0CZGiR3/d4LdwSsgKHFy5hOwocwCWhI3/r1kAqlnFpCWWP6PAyTM KWAvsXfdJlYQW1RAWWJv3yH2CYwCs5B0z0LSPQuhewEj8ypG2ZTcKt3cxMyc4tRk3eLkxLy8 1CJdI73czBK91JTSTYzg0Jbk3cH4767XIUYBDkYlHl6FzReihVgTy4orcw8xSnIwKYnyJqZc jBbiS8pPqcxILM6ILyrNSS0+xCjBwawkwuscB5TjTUmsrEotyodJSXOwKInzTmhZHC0kkJ5Y kpqdmlqQWgSTleHgUJLgfbIUqFGwKDU9tSItM6cEIc3EwQkynAdoeDtIDW9xQWJucWY6RP4U o6KUOG8lSEIAJJFRmgfXC0o9Etn7a14xigO9IszrC0xEQjzAtAXX/QpoMBPQ4BkKF0AGlyQi pKQaGJeZ9+k/Xvj/LMcKD7XnKyNcV1k4Vi91bT7uE1g3Yc/iFxvSP5own+ieFaLFePlGOMur z1XfavmZhec/79Puum3Zl1U2+5R1VtLzDXlXH1p94jaQusK/fz635SsVE5PJ5leLXRmkJz+x XPg+KvN0mYvOa5bp+h8S15y0iN5Y+c5udkhWcj7XGyWW4oxEQy3mouJEAFXDaBEYAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:20:14 -0000 On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 01:53:10AM -0500, Adam Roach wrote: > On 10/24/18 7:18 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I will go ahead and say that we should discuss the "UDP/TLS/BFCP" naming. > > In particular, while I see the previous discussion that there may be > > existing deployments out there, why can we not give it the same treatment > > as "mstrm", and make the official name "UDP/DTLS/BFCP" while documenting > > that you should accept the old name? > > > That would cause unrecoverable errors when a new client sends an offer > to a legacy client. That's a pretty bad backwards-compatibility story. I > get why the current value is ugly, but I don't think making new clients > fail to talk to old ones is a fair price for aesthetic adjustments. I'm not 100% sure I understand the "unrecoverable" nature -- would this cause the entire m= section to be ignored, or the negotiation to fail completely? -Benjamin From nobody Thu Oct 25 04:30:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA4D130E47 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 04:30:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.771 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.771 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=f5QaVr7s; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=aWDh1mlx Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8XwVkTiun5eA for ; 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Thu, 25 Oct 2018 04:44:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org, mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com, bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154046788456.16346.9779422142840687916.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 04:44:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [bfcpbis] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:44:45 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems that my DISCUSS points have been adequately discussed already; thanks. For posterity, they were: I will go ahead and say that we should discuss the "UDP/TLS/BFCP" naming. In particular, while I see the previous discussion that there may be existing deployments out there, why can we not give it the same treatment as "mstrm", and make the official name "UDP/DTLS/BFCP" while documenting that you should accept the old name? We also had a very long discussion about the usage of the term "initial offer" in the context of draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation; I do not propose to rehash that discussion, but want to ask whether we should stick to the established precedent with regard to the use of the term (which, IIUC, would involve a change to this document). Original COMMENT preserved below Section 4 m= ... The media field MUST have a value of "application". This is "For BFCP streams, the media field MUST have a value of application", right? I might just swap the "This section describes [...]" paragraph to be after the exerpt from RFC4566 to avoid confusion. The fmt (format) list is not applicable to BFCP. The fmt list of 'm' lines in the case of any proto field value related to BFCP MUST contain a single "*" character. If the the fmt list contains any other value it is ignored. The fmt list is ignored, or the whole m= line (and section)? Section 5.1 The interpretation of the "c-s" value is not mentioned prior to the table in which it appears, which kind of leaves the reader hanging. (But I guess that is still a style matter, so I should have no say on it.) Table 1 could probably benefit from some discussion of how it is applied, since (e.g.) an offer could include both c-only and c-s, and if the answere includes s-only, the offerer needs to know which role it is performing. It seems like this would be "the offerer proceeds through the following table, and if the offer and answer included the values present in the current line of the table, that line is a match and determines what role the offerer will use". (This would be a DISCUSS but I am not convinced that there is a way to actually do the wrong thing as an implementation.) Endpoints compliant with [RFC4583] might not include the 'floorctrl' attribute in offers and answerer. If the 'floorctrl' attribute is not present the offerer will act as floor control client, and the answerer will act as floor control server. I assume this is going to be backwards compatible, but it might be worth explicitly saying so. Section 5.4, 5.5 I'd go with "decimal integer representation" for consistency with the preceding sections. Section 7 Note: When using Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) [RFC8445], TCP/DTLS/BFCP, and UDP/TLS/BFCP, the straight-forward procedures for connection management as UDP/BFCP described above apply. [...] nit: this sentence as written applies only when all three of ICE, TCP/DTLS/BFCP, and UDP/TLS/BFCP apply (which is nonsensical). I assume the intended grouping is: (1) ICE is used, and (2) either TCP/DTLS/BFCP or UDP/TLS/BFCP is used. Section 8 When TLS is used with TCP, once the underlying connection is established, the answerer always acts as the TLS server. If the TCP connection is lost, the active endpoint is responsible for re- establishing the TCP connection. Unless a new TLS session is negotiated, subsequent SDP offers and answers will not impact the previously negotiated TLS roles. IMPORTANT: "TLS session" is a term of art, and is in fact nonsensical here. I think that you mean "TLS connection" or maybe "TLS handshake". Section 10 If the 'm' line 'proto' value is 'TCP/TLS/BFCP', 'TCP/DTLS/BFCP' or 'UDP/TLS/BFCP', the offerer and answerer follow the generic procedures defined in [RFC8122]. Why is 8122 the reference even for the DLTS values (as opposed to mmusic-dtls-sdp)? Section 10.2 So the answerer can indicate multiple BFCP versions in the bfcpver attribute and is not using that attribute to indicate the selected BFCP version in use? A ref to RFC 4145 for the 'active' endpoint might be helpful. Section 10.3 The "Note" is indented as if it is part of the list, but it should not be part of the list. Section 10.4 When an offerer sends an updated offer, in order to modify a My knowledge of SDP is rusty (and was sparse to begin with), but can't the answerer also send a mid-session offer to start renegotiation of various parameters? That is, it is not just the offerer that can send an offer during an existing session. Section 12 It's probably worth noting explicitly that the non-(D)TLS proto values offer neither integrity protection nor confidentiality protection to the BFCP stream. An attacker able to view the SDP exchanges can determine which media flows contain which content, which could exacerbate existing metadata leakage channels in some circumstances. As Ekr notes in his comment, the potential for privacy considerations relating to the various identifiers transmitted in the session description should be discussed. If the various integer IDs are just local to the physical premises (even better if they're periodically randomized!), the impact is going to be fairly limited, but should still be covered. Section 14 2. Authentication (Section 8): In last paragraph, made clear that a TCP connection was described. I'm rather confused at what this is attempting to describe. From nobody Thu Oct 25 11:08:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bfcpbis@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19C83130E90 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:08:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99hNu4FpHr1L for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6206B130E01 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id g21-v6so4569564pfi.7 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:08:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=i0mVlP9vs+qM6l+GWyJ4at8jagJjVds+tIFrN/vPv3Q=; b=yLJtaw/zIFJwJ7X8RGvSJIl8XGd7ArF88RM+VatIFd8jGXyg9y8I5pE2FV3SOKOa0o KRXvaLT6yJX/HfL6z0+B22eJhpyihpDE8EHp1ILOsaxJdwhODG8Q9qcPguqrd+MMBczo yIypTRiWWi8K3u1wV65IE/P5NoOulsNLzL2NyqcUvuUoJpHROBqFPp8pbJUrSiwBSMCu xo7FEU2n5MowwUHsllMNvWrnJhVwtSRyNbB3rwbqbcSB64eD2EWf3i/E0+JWF6/TJFqU kv2kQfWaTBEsZeoiXd9u7KPcF6cvKk25jjvzIhRSgfnvP06lJGmhu7hhTsMoPwXsDQBI O9ng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=i0mVlP9vs+qM6l+GWyJ4at8jagJjVds+tIFrN/vPv3Q=; b=OeFJB52ldoTPphSCA/peYuYq3h+uRL/PO6v5svRKHI7y+3ylb13oDvQ3k3FASGr6oD pBewdM0UIZresUpv9C1rG4v2tOysWFA4F1jPbUk5/WzBoOuozD/DbQ76D/QAhQ2H42vP nkOuGXUVmR4T/vWZmNKuwNwLrxHhvPCw4NMtaJ0BPmMTFwuTre2kd+ki74gFlMOTJoqA ZmbzfhvfZYZiENvLEwrH2zKNlIbMvCA9y6QrnHk6ZrpesSw7ognAHeJfJJgZchzJQNeT 5BAdhrJfifqCBSc56l+yfTjuMNDcvU88aaFV3kKp7SvaLmo1xGxEaiLnnRXNCP2fWgsf 5GtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKOM8GU+iU2wfzIWSXkjeoKXEsWleICUazlJPm247yc/eHug3fU mSSruw6RwsvEHDeGN3mc/PYA6g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f8XDAaVF88VE0rt4DycbYI4fGezMMUf/pEIciEpT0a6bjOK/iqPjftNpDWjr7OhgG9yhoYTg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:2a15:: with SMTP id q21-v6mr241372pfq.61.1540490927914; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-f176.google.com (mail-pf1-f176.google.com. [209.85.210.176]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c128-v6sm1974982pfb.147.2018.10.25.11.08.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-f176.google.com with SMTP id b11-v6so2924989pfi.5; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:08:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a62:3911:: with SMTP id g17-v6mr269695pfa.170.1540490926157; Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:08:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154040901414.6834.17243795717657341259.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 14:08:36 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: IESG , bfcpbis@ietf.org, Mary Barnes , draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis@ietf.org, bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006ef6600579117e74" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bfcpbis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: BFCPBIS working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 18:08:50 -0000 --0000000000006ef6600579117e74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:05 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Updated offer is still present when ice2 is not used. >> >> When ice2 is used, nominated candidate still ends us as default candidate >> in the subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which means ICE-TCP candidate >> ends up in the m= line. >> > > For the same reasons as JSEP is going to reference ICE-bis, you should do > so here, and just punt this problem. > We did punt the problem. We have defined proto values for all possible protocol variations. How these proto values are going to be used with ICE is up to ICE or ICE-bis RFCs. In the worst case 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' ends up being just a place holder which is never used. Since RTP and datachannel both have proto value for the same purpose, this should not be that big of an issue. > How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I was pretty sure >>>> that 'TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' were used there for this >>>> purpose, but I could have missed one of the updates. >>>> >>> >>> For DTLS-SRTP, JSEP requires that you generate UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF >>> regardless of the ICE candidates. Similarly, for datachannels, you must >>> generate UDP.DTLS/SCTP. >>> >> >> I think this only covers the initial offer, but not the subsequent >> exchanges. >> > > Well, sort of: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/854 > I will address this in the github. Thank you for providing the reference. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --0000000000006ef6600579117e74 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:05 PM= Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wro= te:

Updated offer is still present when ice2 is not used.

When ice2 is used, nominated candidate still e= nds us as default candidate in the subsequent offer/answer exchanges, which= means ICE-TCP candidate ends up in the m=3D line.
<= /blockquote>

For the same reasons as JSEP is going to re= ference ICE-bis, you should do so here, and just punt this problem.

We did punt the problem. W= e have defined proto values for all possible protocol variations. How these= proto values are going to be used with ICE is up to ICE or ICE-bis RFCs. I= n the worst case=C2=A0 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP' ends up being just a place h= older which is never used. Since RTP and datachannel both have proto value = for the same purpose, this should not be that big of an issue.
= =C2=A0
How did you solve this issue in JSEP? I wa= s pretty sure that=C2=A0'TCP/RTP/DTLS/SAVP' and 'TCP/DTLS/SCTP&= #39; were=C2=A0used there for this purpose, but I could have missed one of = the updates.

For DTLS-SRT= P, JSEP requires that you generate UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF regardless of the ICE = candidates. Similarly, for datachannels, you must generate UDP.DTLS/SCTP.

I think this on= ly covers the initial offer, but not the subsequent exchanges.
<= /div>

<= br>
I will address this in the github. Thank you for providing th= e reference.

Regards,
_____________
Roman = Shpount
=C2=A0
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