From nobody Tue Mar 3 08:58:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179011AC3C0 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 08:58:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eLMKVWddpCqp; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 08:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B5D81AC3B9; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 08:58:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.12.0.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150303165851.29630.90350.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 08:58:51 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] State changed: charter-ietf-bier-00-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 16:58:53 -0000 State changed to IESG review. URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bier/ From nobody Tue Mar 3 10:18:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0561A8791 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 10:18:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HLxklkfsgLmG for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 10:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-f41.google.com (mail-oi0-f41.google.com [209.85.218.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86C6C1A1BD1 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 10:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by oifz81 with SMTP id z81so1061271oif.0 for ; Tue, 03 Mar 2015 10:17:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=aRIyf2uAUUVcDFwmpR4LLO7RLGE1B29G62+RDAsnOSQ=; b=FCvSzJDsAw/N97ZC5kDXVqkYEXl+iTmokT09+jyBrjmU4X+FkUcplKGEbslsYDd/ce amqyRT8W3Qje/VIyrUD0jlZY/zTEQ1clwkNJ2PPCCw2CXJShLzUHHBv2+tqQYsMHFypT lchuEpMAHLzC70e/tAwXEkvW+12eIzIGiWFc31MWjnaKoP2rbby3IcHv9ZoJPiemhpzl mPIHy4PmlBlx5BFPQOaV7hgjtRqLePyTN7ojFR97UCBxoPRZnUZkLUkBa2cRcxnrNfIY yiAa99Xc1ArwnFISlV8LcfSOpKNCMRSvpjS3p2pbVVIdEFp9bE65+jh30rXJdORy1UPV UCfQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.97.130 with SMTP id v124mr169162oib.34.1425406634035; Tue, 03 Mar 2015 10:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.97.135 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 10:17:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20150303165851.29630.90350.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150303165851.29630.90350.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:17:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d59661511280510665841 Archived-At: Cc: Greg Shepherd Subject: Re: [Bier] State changed: charter-ietf-bier-00-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 18:18:01 -0000 --001a113d59661511280510665841 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I've updated the BIER charter slightly based upon IESG feedback from the internal review. Please do take another read. It is likely to be approved and done at the IESG telechat on Thursday. Regards, Alia On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:58 AM, IETF Secretariat < ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org> wrote: > State changed to IESG review. > > URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bier/ > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --001a113d59661511280510665841 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've updated the BIER charter slightly based upon IESG= feedback from the internal review.=C2=A0 Please do take another read. =C2= =A0 It is likely to be approved and done at the IESG telechat on Thursday.<= div>
Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:58 AM, IETF = Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org> = wrote:
State changed to IESG review.

URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bier/

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--001a113d59661511280510665841-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 13:57:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E337A1ACDC1; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:57:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RX82VapwbsBK; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55FB21ACDB3; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:56:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Spencer Dawkins" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.12.0.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150303215655.6626.25886.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:56:55 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on charter-ietf-bier-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 21:57:04 -0000 Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-bier-00-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bier/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I share Pete's thoughts about using a wiki for at least some of the non-protocol work in this charter, with the additional thought that I'd hope some of that work starts way earlier than "after we have deployment experience", which makes perfect sense if you're publishing RFCs but seems to get in the way of starting wiki entries unnecessarily. But as we seem to to repeat consistently when the IESG has these conversations, there are all kinds of reasons (ranging from good reasons to bad reasons) to publish non-protocol work as RFCs, and the ADs need to do what makes sense for the community they're serving ... just make good choices :-) From nobody Tue Mar 3 14:10:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27341A89AD; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:10:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DVbQLrH-hdsy; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-f177.google.com (mail-ob0-f177.google.com [209.85.214.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7817D1A8780; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by obcwp4 with SMTP id wp4so2919492obc.0; Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:09:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=qucO/zurvr1MPP37ofu04CFAmM5X+THmodaQZo6kGM0=; b=w7nG5KOHFf79ISfo2dSCwndiJWdAR4b9PqPCweaBe0yMbEUpnObPwv1Xef59WLCIt5 gW6vE+H1C/2boC+OM2LHj4twIBt0/C/GW0au2ec7SAaOzsFEOCw80U6kEZL9+Z82ZQqp Lm2p+gNk5e/kjFWAb9+GlEKNO6Vm5TSzCWqApyVrKgzQpGWkTR37CfJzYxlABfovT8Hi NZxf2P1Kw2pZAFTYuLJ3wpmWFOdiQija9CE37kkNdIMnKD11P+iPPKbK8WMUVsuaOGoq 4A+NUpGY2nF9/d7FeKM8TL6EJEOfR/l9ohmRRZjKPecb62Os3+hLTg1pnH4aWaC8aX/N T1cA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.102.158 with SMTP id m30mr844371oik.22.1425420594924; Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.97.135 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:09:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20150303205430.13632.44879.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150303205430.13632.44879.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:09:54 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Pete Resnick Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114098ec3756f305106998bd Archived-At: Cc: Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [Bier] Pete Resnick's No Objection on charter-ietf-bier-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:10:42 -0000 --001a114098ec3756f305106998bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Pete & Spencer, I think there are three types of non protocol drafts in the bier charter. First, there is one use-case draft. I think this is very useful for setting the BIER work into context but I am not a fan of having a lot of use-case drafts. As a compromise, I'm happy to see the current draft be worked on and advanced; it shouldn't be a perfect example of all use-cases but rather articulate the ones that are sufficient to motivate the work. Second, there are applicability drafts. These are to describe how to use existing protocols with BIER in the network. Some may end up being standards track and some not. Since BIER doesn't own the protocols, this can also provide a way to document what features are missing - until companion drafts in those protocol WGs are written - and then live on describing how the protocol and BIER interact. Third, there is the Deployment Evaluation. I think that this will want to live as an RFC because it will guide operators in understanding the experienced trade-offs and benefits from using BIER. It will also help determine if and when the BIER work should transition from Experimental to Standards Track. I do see Pete's point as far as "a document" and have updated the Applicability Statements part to say "The WG will describe how BIER can be applied to multicast L3VPN and to EVPN." without requiring a particular number of documents. Regards, Alia On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > Pete Resnick has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-bier-00-03: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bier/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm not a big fan of specifying in the charter that the WG will "produce > a document" for anything that is not protocol, nor do I think it's a good > idea to specify the number of particular documents a WG will produce at > all: WGs often discover that they should combine or split different > pieces of the protocol, and I think that's almost always a management > task for the chairs and the WG, not something in the "contract" with the > IESG and the rest of the community. For non-protocol documents, it's > often turns out better to publish these as an updatable wiki instead of > trying to finalize 'the one true RFC', and I certainly wouldn't want to > constrain them to an "Informational RFC" in particular. I'm not going to > stand in the way if you think that this particular group of folks would > best be guided by specifying these things and having them written into > the charter, but I did want to voice my concern. > > > --001a114098ec3756f305106998bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pete & Spencer,

I think there are t= hree types of non protocol drafts in the bier charter.

=
First, there is one use-case draft.=C2=A0 I think this is very useful = for setting the BIER
work into context but I am not a fan of havi= ng a lot of use-case drafts.=C2=A0 As a=C2=A0
compromise, I'm= happy to see the current draft be worked on and advanced; it
sho= uldn't be a perfect example of all use-cases but rather articulate the = ones that
are sufficient to motivate the work.

Second, there are applicability drafts.=C2=A0 These are to describe = how to use existing
protocols with BIER in the network.=C2=A0 Som= e may end up being standards track and
some not.=C2=A0 Since BIER= doesn't own the protocols, this can also provide a way to
do= cument what features are missing - until companion drafts in those protocol= WGs
are written - and then live on describing how the protocol a= nd BIER interact. =C2=A0

Third, there is the Deplo= yment Evaluation.=C2=A0 I think that this will want to live as an
RFC because it will guide operators in understanding the experienced trade= -offs and
benefits from using BIER.=C2=A0 It will also help deter= mine if and when the BIER work
should transition from Experimenta= l to Standards Track.

I do see Pete's point as= far as "a document" and have updated the Applicability
Statements part to say "The WG will describe how BIER can be =C2=A0ap= plied to multicast=C2=A0
L3VPN and to EVPN." without requiri= ng a particular number of documents.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Pete Resnick <presnick@qti.qu= alcomm.com> wrote:
Pete Res= nick has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-bier-00-03: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bier/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not a big fan of specifying in the charter that the WG will "p= roduce
a document" for anything that is not protocol, nor do I think it's= a good
idea to specify the number of particular documents a WG will produce at
all: WGs often discover that they should combine or split different
pieces of the protocol, and I think that's almost always a management task for the chairs and the WG, not something in the "contract" w= ith the
IESG and the rest of the community. For non-protocol documents, it's often turns out better to publish these as an updatable wiki instead of
trying to finalize 'the one true RFC', and I certainly wouldn't= want to
constrain them to an "Informational RFC" in particular. I'm n= ot going to
stand in the way if you think that this particular group of folks would
best be guided by specifying these things and having them written into
the charter, but I did want to voice my concern.



--001a114098ec3756f305106998bd-- From alan.eng@ipc.com Tue Mar 3 11:11:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E531A8897 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 11:11:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kqLjERhq2DZI for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 11:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from p01c12o142.mxlogic.net (p01c12o142.mxlogic.net [208.65.145.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CB301A8890 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 11:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown [38.113.92.52] (EHLO mail.ipc.com) by p01c12o142.mxlogic.net(mxl_mta-8.2.0-3) over TLS secured channel with ESMTP id 45706f45.0.311202.00-200.892202.p01c12o142.mxlogic.net (envelope-from ); Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:11:20 -0700 (MST) X-MXL-Hash: 54f60758732fc090-279bc50fe2b21ea940cb0108e0b2e076cf044ac0 Received: from NWKNJEXMBX2.corp.root.ipc.com ([fe80::df4:1c6f:d8af:c748]) by NWKNJEXHTCAS1.corp.root.ipc.com ([fe80::b913:2343:c013:d109%12]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:11:15 -0500 From: "Eng, Alan" To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Operator Support for BIER Thread-Index: AdBV5SuO7xqbJAPYRtuLGRTLMwU4Ww== Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:11:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.201.10.48] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E2163A00EB15904F84062E5D732F53826DE22922NWKNJEXMBX2corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-AnalysisOut: [v=2.1 cv=NfPy1gz4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=02PC2Vc9u4sKx+biGExYpQ==] X-AnalysisOut: [:117 a=02PC2Vc9u4sKx+biGExYpQ==:17 a=fVS4SBORcy8A:10 a=BLc] X-AnalysisOut: [eEmwcHowA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=vvKfUcgjAAAA:8 a=YlVTAMxI] X-AnalysisOut: [AAAA:8 a=emO1SXQWCLwA:10 a=rd_hZMwNXrk22cojUFoA:9 a=CjuIK1] X-AnalysisOut: [q_8ugA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=m7imcu8raux_] X-AnalysisOut: [Hfoy2kcA:9 a=7jS0bmu21qMbo0fm:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7] X-AnalysisOut: [L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10] X-Spam: [F=0.5000000000; CM=0.500; MH=0.500(2015030306); S=0.200(2014051901)] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [38.113.92.52] Archived-At: Cc: "arkadiy.gulko@thomsonreuters.com" Subject: [Bier] Operator Support for BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:33:25 -0000 --_000_E2163A00EB15904F84062E5D732F53826DE22922NWKNJEXMBX2corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Even though I was just recently introduced to the concept of BIER, I can se= e the benefits of this new technology and would like to see it further deve= loped along the standards track. As a service provider that works extensively with MPLS VPNs (as Extranets a= nd Intranets), I can attest to the technical and operational complexity tha= t can result from current implementations of multicast. In addition to the reduction of state in the network in the core, another b= enefit I see in removing control plane complexity is easier internetworking= between multicast domains at the edge. For Extranet applications, integra= ting between multiple counterparties can be especially challenging. Even t= hough it would be a large leap from the established mechanisms, I believe t= hat BIER has lot of potential in addressing these issues and represents a m= uch better way forward for delivery multicast. - Alan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------ DISCLAIMER: This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, privi= leged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an intended re= cipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. P= lease delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that you have rec= eived it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from taking action = on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages may contain comp= uter viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other sy= stems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowle= dge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable wit= h the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-ma= il to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, to the extent and under= circumstances permitted by applicable law, to retain, monitor and intercep= t e-mail messages to and from its systems. --_000_E2163A00EB15904F84062E5D732F53826DE22922NWKNJEXMBX2corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Even though I was just recently introduced to the co= ncept of BIER, I can see the benefits of this new technology and would like= to see it further developed along the standards track.

As a service provider that works extensively with MP= LS VPNs (as Extranets and Intranets), I can attest to the technical and ope= rational complexity that can result from current implementations of multica= st.

 

In addition to the reduction of state in the network= in the core, another benefit I see in removing control plane complexity is= easier internetworking between multicast domains at the edge.  For Ex= tranet applications, integrating between multiple counterparties can be especially challenging.  Even though i= t would be a large leap from the established mechanisms, I believe that BIE= R has lot of potential in addressing these issues and represents a much bet= ter way forward for delivery multicast.

 

- Alan

-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER: This e-mai= l may contain information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise pro= tected from disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail= , do not duplicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender t= hat you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited fro= m taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages = may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may b= e intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the send= er or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks ass= ociated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the rig= ht, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to r= etain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.


--_000_E2163A00EB15904F84062E5D732F53826DE22922NWKNJEXMBX2corp_-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 14:40:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69661A0275 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:40:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r0CCLa743aj5 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22a.google.com (mail-wg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C28301A01D8 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by wgha1 with SMTP id a1so43049069wgh.12 for ; Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:40:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=W6Z6mQTk05yGfbjX7tkBBFVmAbdV217xt75AxKtzdyg=; b=CDIHTZKrVlYOWa8xhsc2JxIEFjOtDfu7fxjVyK79YNttNTv+t+eP2Gu4aHvlsXNEj2 4p/VjJGJest0dkYS2EsauEwNUTaqlSij9IKGUQl4uZaaUcT/45oeT7hkGG1eD9wlURgQ Q8RqqnmDuJ0EJf5USW4o1J490bsSBZDFAk6OaiW1d/nP3FLszC/v05BeylVybUrLu39N OKQ0mW2n+7Rpn1VmtteSLTvgeSCTBNcMW9AtYAtRdZBJnCAnck3iHt8MMVGtdsjOzm0o coEahxPl5+/RvaeMe53vCzKJlIJLwhtCx04oNhLVXKxB/lJqP2aOlOI3+23WM1x5en/N GRhg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.86.35 with SMTP id m3mr6936976wiz.83.1425422448623; Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.101.98 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:40:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:40:48 -0800 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "Eng, Alan" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044283a6b4886205106a0670 Archived-At: Cc: "arkadiy.gulko@thomsonreuters.com" , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Operator Support for BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:40:52 -0000 --f46d044283a6b4886205106a0670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thanks for your input! I look forward to work with you on BIER. Greg On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Eng, Alan wrote: > Hi, > > > > Even though I was just recently introduced to the concept of BIER, I can > see the benefits of this new technology and would like to see it further > developed along the standards track. > > As a service provider that works extensively with MPLS VPNs (as Extranets > and Intranets), I can attest to the technical and operational complexity > that can result from current implementations of multicast. > > > > In addition to the reduction of state in the network in the core, another > benefit I see in removing control plane complexity is easier > internetworking between multicast domains at the edge. For Extranet > applications, integrating between multiple counterparties can be especially > challenging. Even though it would be a large leap from the established > mechanisms, I believe that BIER has lot of potential in addressing these > issues and represents a much better way forward for delivery multicast. > > > > - Alan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail may contain information that is confidential, > privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not an > intended recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or redistribute it by > any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender that > you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited from > taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages > may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately > replicated on other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted or interfered > with without the knowledge of the sender or the intended recipient. If you > are not comfortable with the risks associated with e-mail messages, you may > decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the right, > to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to > retain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems. > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --f46d044283a6b4886205106a0670 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for your input! I look forward to work with you on = BIER.

Greg

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Eng, Alan <Alan.En= g@ipc.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

Even though I was just recently introduced to the co= ncept of BIER, I can see the benefits of this new technology and would like= to see it further developed along the standards track.

As a service provider that works extensively with MP= LS VPNs (as Extranets and Intranets), I can attest to the technical and ope= rational complexity that can result from current implementations of multica= st.

=C2=A0

In addition to the reduction of state in the network= in the core, another benefit I see in removing control plane complexity is= easier internetworking between multicast domains at the edge.=C2=A0 For Ex= tranet applications, integrating between multiple counterparties can be especially challenging.=C2=A0 Even though i= t would be a large leap from the established mechanisms, I believe that BIE= R has lot of potential in addressing these issues and represents a much bet= ter way forward for delivery multicast.

=C2=A0

- Alan

---------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER: This e-mail may conta= in information that is confidential, privileged or otherwise protected from= disclosure. If you are not an intended recipient of this e-mail, do not du= plicate or redistribute it by any means. Please delete it and any attachments and notify the sender t= hat you have received it in error. Unintended recipients are prohibited fro= m taking action on the basis of information in this e-mail.E-mail messages = may contain computer viruses or other defects, may not be accurately replicated on other systems, or may b= e intercepted, deleted or interfered with without the knowledge of the send= er or the intended recipient. If you are not comfortable with the risks ass= ociated with e-mail messages, you may decide not to use e-mail to communicate with IPC. IPC reserves the rig= ht, to the extent and under circumstances permitted by applicable law, to r= etain, monitor and intercept e-mail messages to and from its systems.



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--f46d044283a6b4886205106a0670-- From nobody Wed Mar 4 04:38:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097F41A0AF7; Wed, 4 Mar 2015 04:38:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D3dsZmAShgT4; Wed, 4 Mar 2015 04:38:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D551A03A1; Wed, 4 Mar 2015 04:38:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.12.0.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150304123820.5454.3592.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 04:38:20 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: gjshep@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] Adrian Farrel's Yes on charter-ietf-bier-00-04: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:38:22 -0000 Adrian Farrel has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-bier-00-04: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bier/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I fully support the formation of this WG. I think that the requirement for independent and interoperable implementations before the publication of an Experimental RFC is harsh. From nobody Wed Mar 4 19:51:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478F71A8BB5; Wed, 4 Mar 2015 19:51:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VAb5OEOHpM_A; Wed, 4 Mar 2015 19:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 143AF1A0191; Wed, 4 Mar 2015 19:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BTH25865; 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d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Fqf5bA+dYduyEMShHuW33+8O48Az6zkwWV0ZTAPHDyA=; b=0E5PBu5SjFOl5vV7UpB9v34ZGOAeE9v2S6rcgf18Rtl8cbDVmIA5iqq+1dyI4pprqI MKu09Maj2mhEB0Y1RjGeJR5/UsoDLcJWkMNRo67hyrAgxCD87jHSy4LCqAjgy5fVBzKq kcJ5FfLRVHS5mAUtX5pvpp1WcCHm0MedMkGCuvJVbFhDndb+V9tLKbWbOlC0gQE5WHrD 8/3ckhq8MZiN/NU4wpJRiCnPPf2MvGSRcTVsvqFOklGJSgpOde6Vt5i2QqC2C23xnZ8w 6KSV7inN/cRt6CPn0y6dk3zRhOnq2crRxGqj0i7FT+Thm4NAR3ZWggVLHVijZ7xpTE2C iU8A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.85.225 with SMTP id k1mr8807150obz.20.1425595676833; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 14:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.97.135 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 14:47:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:47:56 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01229a16e961b90510925b8e Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] congratulations: charter approved X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:47:59 -0000 --089e01229a16e961b90510925b8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Congratulations! At the IESG telechat earlier today, the BIER charter was approved. https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/chartering/ The official announcement should be coming out soon. Thanks for all the hard work to get this done. I'm looking forward to an energetic meeting in Dallas. Regards, Alia --089e01229a16e961b90510925b8e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Congratulations!

At the IESG tele= chat earlier today, the BIER charter was approved.


The official ann= ouncement should be coming out soon.

Thanks for al= l the hard work to get this done.=C2=A0 I'm looking forward to
an energetic meeting in Dallas.

Regards,
Alia --089e01229a16e961b90510925b8e-- From nobody Thu Mar 5 17:22:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BBD1A90AC for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:22:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KqVJoQxWW8F8 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95B391A90A2 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by wiwl15 with SMTP id l15so138428wiw.4 for ; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 17:22:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=PHoxwznPz2AqJJMZlwa5WTySrbFbqE3tmZUwsHz+TI0=; b=urb2v495wdi0K87lfGF0nsAUdcjQxP20UecV6fIQnD0ttYMZaRNszg+y1Dk/ugq/Rc 3YvN7WWD8cBQorR16HGBtMLYS92o6HtS7ltA1dL/8061gw9g7CVSOIlICBD/h3vb/Lch DCKwor3uiMG2TiiS3alf9+FPgHizJQ8W6osuVPeZgxocgwSDNXJHdxCBY6VO6hDkSBxV Rq1Bo2/0z4MEP3WyLh0ivRSIqwmsZrnfD5Q3c839xrM2n0M1NZMrAcm2odRvi1NOsXAC bgxx6JnvQIx5QPjpJL4R2ZykZoSHwLX6HoYmJw4Orcks3FzctCuQaBC4pkBbylfFXrmF AlMg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.20.67 with SMTP id l3mr23747351wje.94.1425604933405; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 17:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.101.98 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:22:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:22:13 -0800 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: Alia Atlas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d649aa552450510948396 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] congratulations: charter approved X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 01:22:16 -0000 --047d7b5d649aa552450510948396 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Great news! And yes, thanks to everyone who has put in the time and effort to get us here; the starting line. ;-) Lots more fun to be had and of course beer along the way. Cheers!, Greg On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Congratulations! > > At the IESG telechat earlier today, the BIER charter was approved. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/chartering/ > > The official announcement should be coming out soon. > > Thanks for all the hard work to get this done. I'm looking forward to > an energetic meeting in Dallas. > > Regards, > Alia > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --047d7b5d649aa552450510948396 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great news! And yes, thanks to everyone who has put in the= time and effort to get us here; the starting line. ;-) Lots more fun to be= had and of course beer along the way.

Cheers!,
Greg

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
Congra= tulations!

At the IESG telechat earlier today, the BIER= charter was approved.


The official announcement = should be coming out soon.

Thanks for all the hard= work to get this done.=C2=A0 I'm looking forward to
an energ= etic meeting in Dallas.

Regards,
Alia

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--047d7b5d649aa552450510948396-- From nobody Thu Mar 5 23:52:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEFB1ACD1B for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 23:52:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yA0Yo7W_IR2f for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 23:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x230.google.com (mail-ie0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA1B71ACD16 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 23:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by iecvy18 with SMTP id vy18so19454477iec.9 for ; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 23:52:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=vqeFQYy78N7SgrdssHSUSn3rCiIVwAW+5rlR1ulihFY=; b=mlhiQAgOY+8MfAdyuBD8iPMYY2gy8swsyO5GcJ9Fq/GG9FPhVZ6EllS5iNiQFhxWMK V3uvFhlSYxmwsoM2gl9e3Teu0W/aPdJWO/UNushe3hr3gAeXKpnrFtZlWrOFlAbWR/Yx a4aFD2gtZ4RdcEf/TDSV2PsjQJjL5Q6mMK5JoMG/XLkOoFm8eJFUy3aLB/SQw6VHn/mh WxxIbj3GSGRWScIJJpdpobI3VziZV9gIA9ITjO96NwW/7J3spdVKWzjXM1ykqEZUfhOX aooykMNTEcIMrSPlVK9pA/4DsfFxXqUX39xI5yE+EYRy998bWLYt6HVw3Knw2jYDVSqE CSkw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.16.42 with SMTP id y42mr27231328ioi.41.1425628375422; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 23:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.18.131 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 23:52:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 23:52:55 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: Greg Shepherd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f1b24e61e90051099f8e6 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] congratulations: charter approved X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 07:52:57 -0000 --001a113f1b24e61e90051099f8e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Rob (Coltun) taught me that IETF beside getting work done & meeting some of the smartest folks was all about "many fine dinners and lunches". I have no objections to extend that to include "extensive beer tasting experiences". all is well & see you all in Dallas to get this little revolutionary idea closer to the realms of establishment ;-) --- tony On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Great news! And yes, thanks to everyone who has put in the time and effort > to get us here; the starting line. ;-) Lots more fun to be had and of > course beer along the way. > > Cheers!, > Greg > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > >> Congratulations! >> >> At the IESG telechat earlier today, the BIER charter was approved. >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/chartering/ >> >> The official announcement should be coming out soon. >> >> Thanks for all the hard work to get this done. I'm looking forward to >> an energetic meeting in Dallas. >> >> Regards, >> Alia >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --001a113f1b24e61e90051099f8e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rob (Coltun) taught me that IETF beside getting work done = & meeting some of the smartest folks was all about "many fine dinn= ers and lunches". I have no objections to extend that to include "= ;extensive beer tasting experiences".=C2=A0

all is = well & see you all in Dallas to get this little revolutionary idea clos= er to the realms of establishment ;-)=C2=A0

--- to= ny=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:
Great news= ! And yes, thanks to everyone who has put in the time and effort to get us = here; the starting line. ;-) Lots more fun to be had and of course beer alo= ng the way.

Cheers!,
Greg

On = Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> = wrote:
Congratulations!

At the IESG tel= echat earlier today, the BIER charter was approved.


The official announcement should be coming out soon.

Thanks for all the hard work to get this done.=C2=A0 I'm looking = forward to
an energetic meeting in Dallas.

Regards,
Alia

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--001a113f1b24e61e90051099f8e6-- From nobody Fri Mar 6 02:16:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA2C1A1BB1 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 02:16:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OfUyFeC8Lr3o for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 02:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B4CD1A1B82 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 02:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by wggx13 with SMTP id x13so18900276wgg.4 for ; Fri, 06 Mar 2015 02:16:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=tsR+FKXODhlN0yzW4t6D1mjfjhX7iaGHMxGw7ibebV8=; b=HBa1/aGc/I4rmk4Zmpb0HjpaDdQGhlGoA8LKneCv9WIojfHNpUsiRdYJECHb0Tbr/1 w3JcbkVpOfVkxgJ1yMLJA3qUBQq8PZ1vBza5UvEr49FUl08uvAM6x+soKsUAJITXK+D/ B0F0U+djhM05HLFS2McyZKib4r61GpWfa8rgoX4pF/C7pUT7SWRV7j9R+S7irnpTRFcb MC5rIdwFDa1k99AUMHPgopbjkB6kXhrjv3bfWvtD0zTwNoJ70KLeKXFJ1vXRL3sLwuAr 3ev7lT0HCtirIAo/9s6ZCMnlBZChJXOkFEEjwhBY1N0tJ1/ClQzFg9V7+qhuynwV6OY9 dHHw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.8.75 with SMTP id di11mr74935773wid.26.1425637014423; Fri, 06 Mar 2015 02:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.101.98 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 02:16:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 02:16:54 -0800 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: Tony Przygienda Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134d05ed2ce0e05109bfb6c Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] congratulations: charter approved X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 10:16:57 -0000 --001a1134d05ed2ce0e05109bfb6c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hear, hear! On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Rob (Coltun) taught me that IETF beside getting work done & meeting some > of the smartest folks was all about "many fine dinners and lunches". I have > no objections to extend that to include "extensive beer tasting > experiences". > > all is well & see you all in Dallas to get this little revolutionary idea > closer to the realms of establishment ;-) > > --- tony > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > >> Great news! And yes, thanks to everyone who has put in the time and >> effort to get us here; the starting line. ;-) Lots more fun to be had and >> of course beer along the way. >> >> Cheers!, >> Greg >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: >> >>> Congratulations! >>> >>> At the IESG telechat earlier today, the BIER charter was approved. >>> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/chartering/ >>> >>> The official announcement should be coming out soon. >>> >>> Thanks for all the hard work to get this done. I'm looking forward to >>> an energetic meeting in Dallas. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Alia >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> > --001a1134d05ed2ce0e05109bfb6c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hear, hear!

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Tony Przygienda <tonys= ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob (Coltun) taught me that IETF beside getting work done &= ; meeting some of the smartest folks was all about "many fine dinners = and lunches". I have no objections to extend that to include "ext= ensive beer tasting experiences".=C2=A0

all is well= & see you all in Dallas to get this little revolutionary idea closer t= o the realms of establishment ;-)=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjs= hep@gmail.com> wrote:
Great news! And yes, thanks to everyone who has put in the time= and effort to get us here; the starting line. ;-) Lots more fun to be had = and of course beer along the way.

Cheers!,
Gre= g

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Congratulations!

At the IESG telecha= t earlier today, the BIER charter was approved.


= The official announcement should be coming out soon.

Thanks for all the hard work to get this done.=C2=A0 I'm looking for= ward to
an energetic meeting in Dallas.

= Regards,
Alia

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



--001a1134d05ed2ce0e05109bfb6c-- From nobody Fri Mar 6 05:37:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E251ACD4D for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 05:37:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JabAP_Dmg5_w for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 05:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7DFB1A1A67 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 05:37:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2529; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1425649028; x=1426858628; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=aKCU8C49m+s/ovc4wg3FPYmWpEg8ej0ToeH1EOcISfo=; b=TrZrdIjLdL1WeHzvj7lqgZSey6eFgxq3fg+EYRYQT9Cgegu7KzyUONP0 I8N7DJdXb5YZub7t5529Z4SyvepM1l2/d/SVXlk1kVl0mOWYDLhaA7er5 Ojzv2r/jONXujnk9zXNlHBiuQnnxY4tWccX5xuvlTIlBl0hsV6bF+XiJc I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CuBgAZrflU/4oNJK1cgwZSWgS/NoIsCoVwAoE4TQEBAQEBAXyEEAEBBAEBATc0CxIBCBIkNwsXBAEGAwIEDgUJiCYNzwYBAQEBAQEEAQEBAQEBAQEBGYsXhG4CBYQrBY4HggCDY4VqgRo5gm2JIYYOI4NubwGBQ38BAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,352,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="398315858" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2015 13:37:07 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com [173.36.12.78]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t26Db7SX012277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Mar 2015 13:37:07 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.147]) by xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com ([173.36.12.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 07:37:07 -0600 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaA Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 13:37:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20150306133111.18378.1794.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.8.130913 x-originating-ip: [10.24.31.59] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3A7AF4DCD45CFE469C8C2C0FADF846DA@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 13:37:10 -0000 Hi BIER, Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network. Comments welcome. Regards, Nagendra (on behalf of authors) On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" wrote: > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > > Title : BIER Ping and Trace > Authors : Nagendra Kumar > Carlos Pignataro > Nobo Akiya > Lianshu Zheng > Mach Chen > Greg Mirsky > Filename : draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt > Pages : 20 > Date : 2015-03-06 > >Abstract: > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that > provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without > requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- > flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building > protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER > domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the > BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). > The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header > contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER > to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast > packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that > correspond to those routers in the BIER header. > > This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet > format that can be used to perform failure detection and isolation on > BIER data plane. > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping/ > >There's also a htmlized version available at: >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00 > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >submission >until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >_______________________________________________ >I-D-Announce mailing list >I-D-Announce@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Fri Mar 6 08:51:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71F41A00A2; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 08:51:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FS_REPLICA=0.994, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fy4JxnMPib-6; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 08:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154201A00DC; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 08:51:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.12.0.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150306165151.31050.49753.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 08:51:51 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: bier WG Subject: [Bier] WG Action: Formed Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 16:51:53 -0000 A new IETF working group has been formed in the Routing Area. For additional information please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) ------------------------------------------------ Current Status: Proposed WG Chairs: Greg Shepherd Tony Przygienda Assigned Area Director: Alia Atlas Mailing list Address: bier@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/bier/current/maillist.html Charter: In conventional IP multicast forwarding, the packets of a given multicast "flow" are forwarded along a tree that has been constructed for the specific purpose of carrying that flow. This requires transit nodes to maintain state on a per-flow basis, and requires the transit nodes to participate in multicast-specific tree building protocols. The flow to which a packet belongs is determined by its IP source and destination address fields. BIER (Bit Index Explicit Replication) is an alternative method of multicast forwarding. It does not require any multicast-specific trees, and hence does not require any multicast-specific tree building protocols. Within a given "BIER domain", an ingress node encapsulates a multicast data packet in a "BIER header". The BIER header identifies the packet's egress nodes in that domain. Each possible egress node is represented by a a single bit within a bitstring; to send a packet to a particular set of egress nodes, the ingress node sets the bits for each of those egress nodes, and clears the other bits in the bistring. Each packet can then be forwarded along the unicast shortest path tree from the ingress node to the egress nodes. Thus there are no per-flow forwarding entries. Due to the particular sensitivity of adding new significant functionality into the data-plane at high link speeds, the BIER work will progress as Experimental. The scope of the experiment will be documented in the output of the Working Group. As described in item (9) below, the work may become Standards Track once there is sufficient experience with the benefits and downsides of the technology. BIER is initially chartered to do experimental work on this new multicast forwarding mechanism as follows: 1) BIER architecture: The WG will publish an architecture, based upon draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-04. It will discuss the security properties of BIER. It will include the normative algorithm for how BIER packet forwarding is done. It will specify the information that is required to be in a BIER header so that a router can support BIER forwarding. 2) BIER encapsulation: The working group should assume that the technology will need to be embedded in the data plane and operate at very high packet line speeds. The WG will publish a document defining an MPLS-based encapsulation based upon draft-wijnands-mpls-bier-encapsulation-02. Due to the critical need to have a high-quality and stable RFC for a new data-plane encapsulation, the MPLS-based encapsulation draft shall wait after WGLC and not progress to IETF Last Call until there are two independent interoperable implementations. As a secondary focus, the WG may also work on one non-MPLS data-plane encapsulation. This draft also shall wait after WGLC and not progress to IETF Last Call until there are two independent interoperable implementations. This draft must focus on and include the following details: a) What is the applicability of the encapsulation and for which use-cases is this encapsulation required? b) Does this proposed encapsulation imply any changes to the MPLS-based encapsulation? c) What design choices have been made for the encapsulation type and the included fields. d) The proposed encapsulation with considerations given to at least OAM, Class of Service, security, fragmentation, TTL. 3) Transition Mechanisms: The WG will describe how BIER can be partially deployed and still provide useful functionality. A minimum of the necessary mechanisms to support incremental deployment and/or managing different BIER mask-length compatibility may be defined. Each such mechanism must include an applicability statement to differentiate its necessity from other proposed mechanisms. 4) Applicability Statements: The WG will describe how BIER can be applied to multicast L3VPN and to EVPN. This draft will describe what mechanism is used to communicate the group membership between the ingress router and the egress routers, what scalability considerations may arise, and any deployment considerations. The WG will work on additional applicability statements, as needed, describing how BIER can be applied; for example, this may be needed to clarify how a non-MPLS data-plane encapsulation would be used. 5) Use Case: The WG may produce one use-case document that clearly articulates the potential benefits of BIER for different use-cases. This would be based upon draft-kumar-bier-use-cases-01. 6) Manageability and OAM: The WG will describe how OAM will work in a BIER domain and what simplifications BIER offers for managing the multicast traffic. A strong preference will be given to extensions to existing protocols. 7) Management models: The WG may work on YANG models and, if needed, MIB modules to support common manageability. 8) IGP extensions. When a BIER domain falls within a "link state IGP"" network, the information needed to set up the BIER forwarding tables (e.g., the mapping between a given bit position and a given egress router) may be carried in the link state advertisements of the IGP. The link state advertisments may also carry other information related to forwarding (e.g., the IGP may support multiple topologies, in which case it may be necessary to advertise which topologies are to be used for BIER forwarding). Any necessary extensions to the IGP will be specified by the WG as Experimental, in cooperation with the ISIS and OSPF WGs. 9) Deployment Evaluation: Once there is deployment experience, the WG will produce an Informational RFC describing the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using BIER instead of traditional multicast forwarding mechanisms. Ideally, this should also contain an analysis of the impact and benefit of the new BIER data-plane to the overall Internet architecture. This document is intended to be used to evaluate whether to recharter BIER to produce Standards Track RFCs. The BIER working group will coordinate with several different working groups and must include the relevant other working groups during working group last call on the relevant drafts. BIER will coordinate with MPLS on the MPLS-based encapsulation and associated MPLS-based OAM mechanisms. BIER will coordinate with ISIS and OSPF on extensions to flood BIER-related information. BIER will coordinate with BESS and IDR on the applicability of existing BGP-based mechanisms for providing multicast group membership information. BIER will coordinate with PIM on the applicability of and extensions to PIM, IGMP, and MLD to support BIER; BIER will work directly on the applicability statements, as needed. Milestones: TBD From nobody Fri Mar 6 10:19:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B7A1A1B21 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:19:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bInypZqLMVGO for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490D11A1AE3 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:19:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2262; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1425665955; x=1426875555; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version; bh=0xrGA/UHD3an9WrXVCbvsJ0pszQ2ED9cjdbDqGlQqqA=; b=IxrYy4UtcXcCHDmJJOrl0auPT5kRzthTj73WL4hOwGkXdBeZKRFC9s/F AW6ExQZHveQyFDgY1x5bJqosxwksEeWJ/p3fXM1j7edVJNajsbSsB46NI wxVq76pd0LJ4AucN+DeesmKSs8BYrUQKMFKZA6Z9rJmoIv5rQhEmJ+zlm 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AKBQA07/lU/4MNJK1cgwZSWsFoCocsTQEBAQEBAXyEET9sBgk0BTUnCYgmDaNvqhIBAQEHAQEBAQEdixeFC4IXTYExBYpliQWFaQGBGjmCbYY6iHUjhA8dMQEBAYJAAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,354,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="401510450" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2015 18:19:14 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t26IJDYE022612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 18:19:13 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t26IJ73f021321 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:19:07 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t26IJ7DU021320 for bier@ietf.org; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:19:07 -0800 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:19:07 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20150306181907.GX16454@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] FYI: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 18:19:17 -0000 In Milan, someone raised the question if BIER could do traffic engineering.. I have posted a draft proposing on how one could do traffic engineering with BIER (explicit hop-by-hop paths, FRR). The goal of course is to stick to the principles of BIER. Please let me know what you think. Of course this is just a -00, any feedback welcome! Thanks Toerless In-Reply-To: <20150306180925.17081.39629.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> On Fri, Mar 06, 2015 at 10:09:25AM -0800, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A new version of I-D, draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Toerless Eckert and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch > Revision: 00 > Title: Traffic Enginering for Bit Index Explicit Replication BIER-TE > Document date: 2015-03-05 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 21 > URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch/ > Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00 > > > Abstract: > This document proposes an architecture for BIER-TE: Traffic > Engineering for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER). > > BIER-TE shares part of its architecture with BIER as described in > [I-D.wijnands-bier-architecture]. It also proposes to share the > packet format with BIER. > > BIER-TE forwards and replicates packets like BIER based on a > BitString in the packet header but it does not require an IGP. It > does support traffic engineering by explicit hop-by-hop forwarding > and loose hop forwarding of packets. It does support Fast ReRoute > (FRR) for link and node protection and incremental deployment. > Because BIER-TE like BIER operates without explicit in-network tree- > building but also supports traffic engineering, it is more similar to > SR than RSVP-TE. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat From nobody Fri Mar 6 11:40:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF6C1A6EED for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:40:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wbo1Sq9FPCOj for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com (mail-ie0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE95D1A1DFA for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by iecrp18 with SMTP id rp18so20372019iec.10 for ; Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:39:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=aOmvaf4L5pcQIXNmxtwcP+HUhKnmEKw3GwRB0+lMd7Q=; b=IeF64TWZ6GotfOaXT9+WdoE582XpLjXeHiPlko6DS2NP+qLCqNvqIF02qwKxBMbX0g wStiCdo5lMMb9l8vHd2O0McbAt/wqOr7T9wsrwo5tIg6xBtDW85lI7gi0dRorDloYgJa AKyid2QZSHWLt7jVtdu3/v8BVgvbVmrxmo3aBarEwvuLJXVRJoeFgu+eNpQXfxWI4zkz KzVo3q3ckkbeeT2Eo1ygG/cT2Igeb2/+5uz0Mb6BRQ9aKuObNiIPjqnQJF/RioUXgN6q /24PDYGMwGh4ESqk+C25YFdZ5ynRYUrxyT2WSCyLitQ5ItjraFUWoBpfCQj1P/aYaYFP lyRg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.94.65 with SMTP id a1mr11808315icn.1.1425670798462; Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.18.131 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:39:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20150306133111.18378.1794.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:39:58 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303345f38256ea0510a3d901 Archived-At: Cc: "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , "bier@ietf.org" , Nobo Akiya , Gregory Mirsky , Mach Chen , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 19:40:01 -0000 --20cf303345f38256ea0510a3d901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Nagendra, thanks for the work, especially putting several companies on short notice under same hat and getting some kind of working doc with a suggestion. I'll comment over the weekend on the minutiae of the bits involved. How long a slot do you guys suggest for it? On a wider note, I would expect in the slot a presentation of requirements that drove such a document, the solution and expect a lively input on the floor from the participants, especially carriers. OAM is a precondition for a manageable carrier-grade service @ scale and they better take the opportunity to comment and influence the work by extending necessary requirements and comments. Especially since p2mp OAM is not what I hear being a simple problem to attack Thanks --- tony On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) < naikumar@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi BIER, > > Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network. > > Comments welcome. > > Regards, > Nagendra (on behalf of authors) > > On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > wrote: > > > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >directories. > > > > > > Title : BIER Ping and Trace > > Authors : Nagendra Kumar > > Carlos Pignataro > > Nobo Akiya > > Lianshu Zheng > > Mach Chen > > Greg Mirsky > > Filename : draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt > > Pages : 20 > > Date : 2015-03-06 > > > >Abstract: > > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that > > provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without > > requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- > > flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building > > protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER > > domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the > > BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). > > The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header > > contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER > > to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast > > packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that > > correspond to those routers in the BIER header. > > > > This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet > > format that can be used to perform failure detection and isolation on > > BIER data plane. > > > > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping/ > > > >There's also a htmlized version available at: > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00 > > > > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > >submission > >until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >I-D-Announce mailing list > >I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --20cf303345f38256ea0510a3d901 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nagendra, thanks for the work, especially pu= tting several companies on short notice under same hat and getting some kind of working d= oc with a suggestion. I'll comment over the weekend on the minutiae of the= bits involved.

=C2=A0

How long a slot do you guys suggest for it?

=C2=A0

On a wider note, I would expect in the slot a presentation of requirements that drove such a document, the solution and expect a lively i= nput on the floor from the participants, especially carriers. OAM is a precondition= for a manageable carrier-grade service @ scale and they better take the opportu= nity to comment and influence the work by extending necessary requirements and c= omments. Especially since p2mp OAM is not what I hear being a simple problem to atta= ck

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0


On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Nagendra Kumar Nainar = (naikumar) <naikumar@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi BIER,

Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network.<= br>
Comments welcome.

Regards,
Nagendra (on behalf of authors)

On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "inter= net-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
wrote:

>
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>directories.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: BIER Ping and Trace
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: = Nagendra Kumar
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Carlos Pignataro
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nobo Akiya
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lianshu Zheng
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mach Chen
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg Mirsky
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2015-03-06
>
>Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture t= hat
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER= domain" without
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast r= elated per-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0flow state.=C2=A0 BIER also does not require any explicit = tree-building
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol for its operation.=C2=A0 A multicast data packet = enters a BIER
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFI= R), and leaves the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Rou= ters" (BFERs).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet.=C2=A0 Th= e BIER header
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly= one BFER
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0to forward the packet to.=C2=A0 The set of BFERs to which = the multicast
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the b= its that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0correspond to those routers in the BIER header.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM p= acket
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0format that can be used to perform failure detection and i= solation on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER data plane.
>
>
>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-= ping/
>
>There's also a htmlized version available at:
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00
>
>
>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>submission
>until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>ftp:/= /ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>_______________________________________________
>I-D-Announce mailing list
>I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--20cf303345f38256ea0510a3d901-- From nobody Fri Mar 6 11:41:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D788C1A1BE4 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:41:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id flvVTU8bucay for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08FD41A6F12 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by wghk14 with SMTP id k14so11469481wgh.3 for ; Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:41:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=JuX83dTThFKTBIDjPOIJDuVHtfkDNnd2p6k8Unvp/xc=; b=af8sgA9n6uGOy3hLzHBRIGm/djwNnBD8HJs3iHqrP70TSBiftlyegZ9YM/yrbV0HSv pKGIYKU+JztL7IgahShPHjrUFswWmU7nTLcajgryzxQLkSuXCkHdRtV8XECRo+OH40li FovqokzsQ7MepJMqzpngcCl1RAy18qhFMZiJftth7zrjolkKaWOPchjbRvBgEpMYOT5i +G/712+uN1LTMijVMwRVtSFNxib6Nh5LGOKw0sDKiWSV8zwRamfq8utA3SWUdzNStUKr NZNWCK0jUCIIRfNuOt9Ji269Er6lg5s1InO4tD2Po29pI6jLm+gMFK39A6Hx1sQEHuPA 8K7Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.201.164 with SMTP id kb4mr32599624wjc.32.1425670892851; Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.101.98 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:41:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20150306133111.18378.1794.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:41:32 -0800 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: Tony Przygienda Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bae48802297e90510a3df2d Archived-At: Cc: "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , "bier@ietf.org" , Nobo Akiya , Gregory Mirsky , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar \(naikumar\)" , Mach Chen , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 19:41:37 -0000 --047d7bae48802297e90510a3df2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Inline: On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Nagendra, thanks for the work, especially putting several companies on > short notice under same hat and getting some kind of working doc with a > suggestion. I'll comment over the weekend on the minutiae of the bits > involved. > > > > How long a slot do you guys suggest for it? > > > > On a wider note, I would expect in the slot a presentation of requirements > that drove such a document, the solution and expect a lively input on the > floor from the participants, especially carriers. OAM is a precondition for > a manageable carrier-grade service @ scale and they better take the > opportunity to comment and influence the work by extending necessary > requirements and comments. Especially since p2mp OAM is not what I hear > being a simple problem to attack > I agree. I think we should start with a wider OAM reqs presentation before solutions to get everyone close to the same page. Greg > Thanks > > > > --- tony > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) < > naikumar@cisco.com> wrote: > >> Hi BIER, >> >> Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network. >> >> Comments welcome. >> >> Regards, >> Nagendra (on behalf of authors) >> >> On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> >directories. >> > >> > >> > Title : BIER Ping and Trace >> > Authors : Nagendra Kumar >> > Carlos Pignataro >> > Nobo Akiya >> > Lianshu Zheng >> > Mach Chen >> > Greg Mirsky >> > Filename : draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt >> > Pages : 20 >> > Date : 2015-03-06 >> > >> >Abstract: >> > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that >> > provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without >> > requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- >> > flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building >> > protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER >> > domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the >> > BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). >> > The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header >> > contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER >> > to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast >> > packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that >> > correspond to those routers in the BIER header. >> > >> > This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet >> > format that can be used to perform failure detection and isolation on >> > BIER data plane. >> > >> > >> >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping/ >> > >> >There's also a htmlized version available at: >> >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00 >> > >> > >> >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> >submission >> >until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> > >> >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >I-D-Announce mailing list >> >I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --047d7bae48802297e90510a3df2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inline:

On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@g= mail.com> wrote:

Nagendra, thanks for the work, especially putting several companies on short notice under same hat and getting some kind of working d= oc with a suggestion. I'll comment over the weekend on the minutiae of the= bits involved.

=C2=A0

How long a slot do you guys suggest for it?

=C2=A0

On a wider note, I would expect in the slot a presentation of requirements that drove such a document, the solution and expect a lively i= nput on the floor from the participants, especially carriers. OAM is a precondition= for a manageable carrier-grade service @ scale and they better take the opportu= nity to comment and influence the work by extending necessary requirements and c= omments. Especially since p2mp OAM is not what I hear being a simple problem to atta= ck

I agree. I think we should start with a wider= OAM reqs presentation before solutions to get everyone close to the same p= age.

Greg
=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0


On Fri, M= ar 6, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) &= lt;naikumar@cisco.c= om> wrote:
Hi BIER,

Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network.<= br>
Comments welcome.

Regards,
Nagendra (on behalf of authors)

On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
wrote:

>
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>directories.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: BIER Ping and Trace
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: = Nagendra Kumar
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Carlos Pignataro
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nobo Akiya
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lianshu Zheng
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mach Chen
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg Mirsky
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2015-03-06
>
>Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture t= hat
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER= domain" without
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast r= elated per-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0flow state.=C2=A0 BIER also does not require any explicit = tree-building
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol for its operation.=C2=A0 A multicast data packet = enters a BIER
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFI= R), and leaves the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Rou= ters" (BFERs).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet.=C2=A0 Th= e BIER header
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly= one BFER
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0to forward the packet to.=C2=A0 The set of BFERs to which = the multicast
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the b= its that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0correspond to those routers in the BIER header.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM p= acket
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0format that can be used to perform failure detection and i= solation on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER data plane.
>
>
>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-= ping/
>
>There's also a htmlized version available at:
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00
>
>
>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>submission
>until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>ftp:/= /ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>_______________________________________________
>I-D-Announce mailing list
>I-D-Announce= @ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--047d7bae48802297e90510a3df2d-- From nobody Fri Mar 6 11:55:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2573C1A1EE8 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:55:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IEJxJYY7vnN8 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49F8E1A6F22 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:55:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14955; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1425671708; x=1426881308; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=L1Cq4Y31YbYPtH0lQHYal1u8W0+MixCgH9Ycx3/ktWQ=; b=j/vJxYl41znS4g/ilWYlk0C4Ej/tZeKsjD881gp24k50gVDMrNKVe2Pz hHW14XXjDCmx3BFnGXlPs7I+shhHF27xuQKhBHHjTsDWWx9VXuQVUhwQI qpCc3M2UbeMmNXZSJZubfEOYmje+iP6PFqLK59oBNzqymTwteTnuKjgKB M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CuBwARBfpU/5FdJa1cgkNDUloEvzg8gXABCYVwAoE6TQEBAQEBAXyEDwEBAQQBAQFkBwsSAQgRAQIBAigoBgsUAwUBCAIEDgUJEogAAxENyDANhTQBAQEBAQUBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReLF4JEghkNBAcJhCIFjgeCAINjg28zgUiBGhEogm2JHQSGDiODbm8BgUN/AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,354,1422921600"; d="scan'208,217";a="129650279" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Mar 2015 19:55:07 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com [173.37.183.80]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t26Jt7Wb000377 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Mar 2015 19:55:07 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.147]) by xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([173.37.183.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 13:55:06 -0600 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Tony Przygienda Thread-Topic: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaAgAC5MwD//7BpAA== Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 19:55:06 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.8.130913 x-originating-ip: [10.24.31.59] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D11F6E0B8B478naikumarciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , "bier@ietf.org" , Nobo Akiya , Gregory Mirsky , Mach Chen , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 19:55:11 -0000 --_000_D11F6E0B8B478naikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tony, How long a slot do you guys suggest for it? I think a 30 minutes slot should be fine. We will share the PPT = and presenter info soon. On a wider note, I would expect in the slot a presentation of requirements = that drove such a document, the solution and expect a lively input on the f= loor from the participants, especially carriers. OAM is a precondition for = a manageable carrier-grade service @ scale and they better take the opportu= nity to comment and influence the work by extending necessary requirements = and comments. Especially since p2mp OAM is not what I hear being a simple p= roblem to attack Yes. That infact is the plan and consensus among the authors as = well. We will discuss about the considerations and requirement for this mac= hinery during the presentation. Thanks, Nagendra From: Tony Przygienda > Date: Friday, March 6, 2015 at 2:39 PM To: Nagendra Kumar Nainar > Cc: "bier@ietf.org" >, Gregory Mirsky >, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" >, Mach Chen >, Nobo Akiya >= , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" > Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Nagendra, thanks for the work, especially putting several companies on shor= t notice under same hat and getting some kind of working doc with a suggest= ion. I'll comment over the weekend on the minutiae of the bits involved. How long a slot do you guys suggest for it? On a wider note, I would expect in the slot a presentation of requirements = that drove such a document, the solution and expect a lively input on the f= loor from the participants, especially carriers. OAM is a precondition for = a manageable carrier-grade service @ scale and they better take the opportu= nity to comment and influence the work by extending necessary requirements = and comments. Especially since p2mp OAM is not what I hear being a simple p= roblem to attack Thanks --- tony On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) > wrote: Hi BIER, Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network. Comments welcome. Regards, Nagendra (on behalf of authors) On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > wrote: > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > > Title : BIER Ping and Trace > Authors : Nagendra Kumar > Carlos Pignataro > Nobo Akiya > Lianshu Zheng > Mach Chen > Greg Mirsky > Filename : draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt > Pages : 20 > Date : 2015-03-06 > >Abstract: > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that > provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without > requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- > flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building > protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER > domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the > BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). > The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header > contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER > to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast > packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that > correspond to those routers in the BIER header. > > This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet > format that can be used to perform failure detection and isolation on > BIER data plane. > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping/ > >There's also a htmlized version available at: >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00 > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >submission >until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >_______________________________________________ >I-D-Announce mailing list >I-D-Announce@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --_000_D11F6E0B8B478naikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <716ADAC70D3EB84386B6AEFD692986B6@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tony,

How long a slot do you guys suggest for it? 

<Nagendra> I think a 30 minutes slot should be fine. We= will share the PPT and presenter info soon.

On a wider note, I would expect in the slot a presentation of= requirements that drove such a document, the solution and expect a lively = input on the floor from the participants, especially carriers. OAM is a pre= condition for a manageable carrier-grade service @ scale and they better take the opportunity to comment and influe= nce the work by extending necessary requirements and comments. Especially s= ince p2mp OAM is not what I hear being a simple problem to attack

<Nagendra> Yes. That infact is the plan and consensus among the = authors as well. We will discuss about the considerations and requirement f= or this machinery during the presentation. 

Thanks,
Nagendra

From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, March 6, 2015 at 2:39= PM
To: Nagendra Kumar Nainar <naikumar@cisco.com>
Cc: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@i= etf.org>, Gregory Mirsky <gregory.mirsky@ericsson.com>, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.= com>, Mach Chen <mach.che= n@huawei.com>, Nobo Akiya <nobo.akiya.dev@gmail.com>, "vero.zheng@huawei.com" <vero.zheng@huawei.com>=
Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: I-D Action:= draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt

Nagendra, thanks for the work, especially putting several com= panies on short notice under same hat and getting some kind of working doc = with a suggestion. I'll comment over the weekend on the minutiae of the bit= s involved.

 

How long a slot do you guys suggest for it?

 

On a wider note, I would expect in the slot a presentation of= requirements that drove such a document, the solution and expect a lively = input on the floor from the participants, especially carriers. OAM is a pre= condition for a manageable carrier-grade service @ scale and they better take the opportunity to comment and influe= nce the work by extending necessary requirements and comments. Especially s= ince p2mp OAM is not what I hear being a simple problem to attack

 

Thanks

 

--- tony 


On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Nagendra Kumar N= ainar (naikumar) <naikumar@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi BIER,

Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network.<= br>
Comments welcome.

Regards,
Nagendra (on behalf of authors)

On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "inter= net-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
wrote:

>
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>directories.
>
>
>        Title          &nb= sp;: BIER Ping and Trace
>        Authors         : = Nagendra Kumar
>                    &= nbsp;     Carlos Pignataro
>                    &= nbsp;     Nobo Akiya
>                    &= nbsp;     Lianshu Zheng
>                    &= nbsp;     Mach Chen
>                    &= nbsp;     Greg Mirsky
>       Filename        : draft-= kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt
>       Pages          &nbs= p;: 20
>       Date           = ; : 2015-03-06
>
>Abstract:
>   Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture t= hat
>   provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER= domain" without
>   requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast r= elated per-
>   flow state.  BIER also does not require any explicit = tree-building
>   protocol for its operation.  A multicast data packet = enters a BIER
>   domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFI= R), and leaves the
>   BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Rou= ters" (BFERs).
>   The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet.  Th= e BIER header
>   contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly= one BFER
>   to forward the packet to.  The set of BFERs to which = the multicast
>   packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the b= its that
>   correspond to those routers in the BIER header.
>
>   This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM p= acket
>   format that can be used to perform failure detection and i= solation on
>   BIER data plane.
>
>
>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-= ping/
>
>There's also a htmlized version available at:
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00
>
>
>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>submission
>until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>ftp:/= /ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>_______________________________________________
>I-D-Announce mailing list
>I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

 --_000_D11F6E0B8B478naikumarciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Mar 6 12:49:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF57E1A6F12 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 12:49:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IaxL9v6Pg5VI for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 12:49:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A65701A8028 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 12:49:50 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79876d000003ebd-4f-54f9be1bbe49 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 56.6E.16061.B1EB9F45; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 15:47:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB109.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.126]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Fri, 6 Mar 2015 15:49:48 -0500 From: Jeff Tantsura To: "" Thread-Topic: [Bier] congratulations: charter approved Thread-Index: AQHQV5Zy9aO3VZiY7ESv3kA0AgsVhp0O/JeAgABtKYCAACg7AIAAXQN+ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 20:49:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C41905E517924358868A2B00C9EEA42Fericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrHLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt670vp8hBpNOy1ssnbGHyWLLnDyL 3Q82sjgwe+ycdZfdY8mSn0wBTFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGZ9fphRcNKj42uLYwNiq1cXIySEh YCIx/+8eVghbTOLCvfVsXYxcHEICRxglps//xgrhLGOU+HO0gRGkik3AQOL/t+MsILaIgLbE hWMT2LsYOTiYBbwkuo+ADRIWMJVYcXwDG0SJmcT1ddeYIWw3ibb1H8FsFgEViUvfv7KCtPIK 2EtM/WUBsWoxk8S2U51gNZwCgRJzr30FsxmBjvt+ag0TiM0sIC5x68l8JoijBSSW7DnPDGGL Srx8/I8VoiZZYtOTPrCTeQUEJU7OfMIygVFkFpL2WUjKZiEpg4jrSCzY/YkNwtaWWLbwNTOM febAYyZk8QWM7KsYOUqLU8ty040MNjECI+iYBJvuDsY9Ly0PMQpwMCrx8H64/yNEiDWxrLgy 9xCjNAeLkjjvogcHQ4QE0hNLUrNTUwtSi+KLSnNSiw8xMnFwSjUw1uR8k7WKeqTX9v3E2fnv 7A19YlxDDSZPfZp0PNU843qSyrMlJ03O+ZVKBwd3XzjoYM7qUbtZY97SnL4LS/R/SSSIvMiN ffrdN9f6VYjZuuuGay5pffDkvbf+3b+/pbmSKyfMX+DN6r0kK7hBuyOsoXv3ORavVTaH21/s Etq+471N9MXS1rpdSizFGYmGWsxFxYkAOj8DYoECAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] congratulations: charter approved X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 20:49:55 -0000 --_000_C41905E517924358868A2B00C9EEA42Fericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yay! Regards, Jeff On Mar 6, 2015, at 5:17 AM, Greg Shepherd > wrote: Hear, hear! On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: Rob (Coltun) taught me that IETF beside getting work done & meeting some of= the smartest folks was all about "many fine dinners and lunches". I have n= o objections to extend that to include "extensive beer tasting experiences"= . all is well & see you all in Dallas to get this little revolutionary idea c= loser to the realms of establishment ;-) --- tony On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Greg Shepherd > wrote: Great news! And yes, thanks to everyone who has put in the time and effort = to get us here; the starting line. ;-) Lots more fun to be had and of cours= e beer along the way. Cheers!, Greg On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Alia Atlas > wrote: Congratulations! At the IESG telechat earlier today, the BIER charter was approved. https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/chartering/ The official announcement should be coming out soon. Thanks for all the hard work to get this done. I'm looking forward to an energetic meeting in Dallas. Regards, Alia _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --_000_C41905E517924358868A2B00C9EEA42Fericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
yay!

Regards,
Jeff

On Mar 6, 2015, at 5:17 AM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:

Hear, hear!

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Tony Przygienda= <tonysietf@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Rob (Coltun) taught me that IETF beside getting work done = & meeting some of the smartest folks was all about "many fine dinn= ers and lunches". I have no objections to extend that to include "= ;extensive beer tasting experiences". 

all is well & see you all in Dallas to get this little revolutiona= ry idea closer to the realms of establishment ;-) 

--- tony 

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
Great news! And yes, thanks to everyone who has put in the= time and effort to get us here; the starting line. ;-) Lots more fun to be= had and of course beer along the way.

Cheers!,
Greg

Congratulations!

At the IESG telechat earlier today, the BIER charter was approved.


The official announcement should be coming out soon.

Thanks for all the hard work to get this done.  I'm looking forwa= rd to
an energetic meeting in Dallas.

Regards,
Alia

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
--_000_C41905E517924358868A2B00C9EEA42Fericssoncom_-- From nobody Sat Mar 7 23:44:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B94C1A1BDA for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2015 23:44:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lr0e_HeNW98j for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2015 23:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9C251A1BCB for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2015 23:44:45 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f796f6d000004ccc-44-54fb9cdc03f2 Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id DE.66.19660.CDC9BF45; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 01:50:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 03:44:43 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaAgAKhhkA= Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 07:44:42 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826A874@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <20150306133111.18378.1794.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826A874eusaamb103ericsso_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn+7dOb9DDL4eFLZYOmMPk8WndztY LC6sFbZ4PXEqm8WTc+9YLM6uucPqwOYx5fdGVo+ds+6ye7QcecvqsWTJT6YAligum5TUnMyy 1CJ9uwSujKYNrxgL+u8wVixb3MzUwPhoL2MXIyeHhICJxIvF/9khbDGJC/fWs3UxcnEICRxh lFhy5x8jhLOMUWLFmflgVWwCFhKXvz1lBrFFBOIkDk1cyQRSxCzwjFHi6dl5bCAJYQEriT0b H7BAFFlL3GxYBtTAAWRbSTz9lwISZhFQkTg5azlYCa+At8SXN3/BZgoJpElMO78E7DpOAQOJ 029mgtUwAl33/dQaJhCbWUBc4taT+UwQVwtILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfK4StJPHxN8TNzAL5EtMa NzNC7BKUODnzCcsERtFZSEbNQlI2C0kZRFxHYsHuT2wQtrbEsoWvmWHsMwceMyGLL2BkX8XI UVqcWpabbmS4iREYlcck2Bx3MC74ZHmIUYCDUYmHd0PmrxAh1sSy4srcQ4zSHCxK4rxlVw6G CAmkJ5akZqemFqQWxReV5qQWH2Jk4uCUamDsei70iW9jidXmfJ9WnbmPpZytXSRy7N4kh/eX nFYWZJ/yrMnlXvCcKXsfPtV4mbaFtZylPq/pz+9Zwi8E9WbKrVHjUHK5K7Fnb/VuQ5ZPOsVW VRL/5v0SaVo285nHND1Pns+/FLg550bbqm4WXbZx/1uuvgk+zTIua6vv8PvfOsq7RuZH/B8l luKMREMt5qLiRADZTVeBqwIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 07:44:51 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826A874eusaamb103ericsso_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As individual cat meowing ;-) :: OK, read through the draft and here's a bunch of observations @ different l= evels: a) To verify my understanding first: i) it looks like the answer can be given in-band (via BIER which will= verify bi-directional continuity) or out-band (via BIER) while the request= is always in-band (which makes sense). a. Which address is used when replying UDP then? The sender's handle d= oes not carry IPv4 address semantics and the OAM packet is not IP. The most= likely candidate is upstream interface TLV but it says specifically that i= t's the replhying BFR that sets it. j) It looks like there are no provisions in the OAM currently for any= thing but straight ping carrying additionally the mask @ the node (i.e. no= t throughput, loss ratios, alarms and so on) b) As first SI-BS TLVs: i) Bistring Len of a byte is not described further and assuming it's = to be interpreted as one-byte unsigned int, this won't work. Even if become= s 2 bytes, to prevent things like bitstring len =3D 11 being advertised in = the original SI-BS TLV I suggest to follow the 4 bits encoding used in MPLS= draft (which I think should be moved to the architecture draft and probabl= y extended to arbitrary number of bits by the means of a simple formula [w= hich MPLS encaps draft uses] 32 * 2 ^ (len field value interpreted as unsigned int) ) ii) given we can reply out-of-band (i.e. without any labels or following t= he BIER sub-domain but using IP substrate) I do not think that the SI-BS TL= Vs can get away without carrying sub-domains. Set ID and BFR-ID are specifi= c both to a BIER domain and sub-domain so they can be confused. The domain = can be distinguished by the loopback. I do not expect people provisioning l= oopback per sub-domain and in fact the IGP drafts today are not intended to= do so [the BGP won't allow it assuming a single BIER-prefix]). I would con= sider relying on 'sender's handle'-matching to disassociate subdomain/set a= rchitecturally sub-optimal. c) I see that the responder BFR TLV allows for BFRs without BFR-ids to= respond but I fail to see how they are triggered to do so since it is the= target SI-BS TLV which describes the necessary responders and that carries= a bitstring only which relies on BFR-ids being assigned Thanks --- tony --- There are basically two types of people. People who accomplish things, and = people who claim to have accomplished things. The first group is less crowded. = ~~~ Mark Twain > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nagendra Kumar > Nainar (naikumar) > Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 5:37 AM > To: bier@ietf.org > Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Mach Chen; Nobo Akiya; > vero.zheng@huawei.com > Subject: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt > > Hi BIER, > > Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network= . > > Comments welcome. > > Regards, > Nagendra (on behalf of authors) > > On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > > wrote: > > > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >directories. > > > > > > Title : BIER Ping and Trace > > Authors : Nagendra Kumar > > Carlos Pignataro > > Nobo Akiya > > Lianshu Zheng > > Mach Chen > > Greg Mirsky > > Filename : draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt > > Pages : 20 > > Date : 2015-03-06 > > > >Abstract: > > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that > > provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without > > requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- > > flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building > > protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER > > domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the > > BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). > > The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header > > contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER > > to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast > > packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that > > correspond to those routers in the BIER header. > > > > This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet > > format that can be used to perform failure detection and isolation on > > BIER data plane. > > > > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping/ > > > >There's also a htmlized version available at: > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00 > > > > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > >submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > >tools.ietf.org. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >I-D-Announce mailing list > >I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826A874eusaamb103ericsso_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As individual cat meowing ;-)  ::  

 

OK, read through the draft and here's a bunch of = observations @ different levels:

 

a)      To verify my understanding first:

i)       it looks like the answer can be given in-band (via = BIER which will verify bi-directional continuity) or out-band (via BIER) wh= ile the request is always in-band (which makes sense).

a.      Which address is used when replying UDP then? The s= ender’s handle does not carry IPv4 address semantics and the OAM pack= et is not IP. The most likely candidate is upstream interface TLV but it sa= ys specifically that it’s the replhying BFR that sets it.

j)       It looks like there are no provisions in the OAM cu= rrently for anything but straight ping carrying additionally the mask @ the= node  (i.e. not throughput, loss ratios, alarms and so on)=

b)      As first SI-BS TLVs:

i)       Bistring Len of a byte is not described further and= assuming it's to be interpreted as one-byte unsigned int, this won't work.= Even if becomes 2 bytes, to prevent things like bitstring len =3D 11 being= advertised in the original SI-BS TLV I suggest to follow the 4 bits encoding used in MPLS draft (which I th= ink should be moved to the architecture draft and probably extended to arbi= trary number of bits  by the means of a simple formula [which MPLS enc= aps draft uses]

 

32 * = 2 ^ (len field value interpreted as unsigned int)

=  

)

 

ii)  given we can= reply out-of-band (i.e. without any labels or following the BIER sub-domai= n but using IP substrate) I do not think that the SI-BS TLVs can get away w= ithout carrying sub-domains. Set ID and BFR-ID are specific both to a BIER domain and sub-domain so they can be confused.= The domain can be distinguished by the loopback. I do not expect people pr= ovisioning loopback per sub-domain and in fact the IGP drafts today are not= intended to do so [the BGP won’t allow it assuming a single BIER-prefix]). I would consider relying on R= 16;sender’s handle’-matching to disassociate subdomain/set arch= itecturally sub-optimal.

c)      I see that the responder BFR TLV allows for BFRs wi= thout BFR-ids to respond but  I fail to see how they are triggered to = do so since it is the target SI-BS TLV which describes the necessary respon= ders and that carries a bitstring only which relies on BFR-ids being assigned

 

Thanks

 

--- tony

 

---

There are basically two types of people. People w= ho accomplish things, and people

who claim to have accomplished things. The first = group is less crowded.

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      ~~~ Mark Twain

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Nagendra Kumar

> Nainar (naikumar)

> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 5:37 AM

> To: bier@ietf.org

> Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Carlos Pignataro (cpigna= ta); Mach Chen; Nobo Akiya;

> vero.zheng@huawei.com

> Subject: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarz= heng-bier-ping-00.txt

>

> Hi BIER,

>

> Below is the draft covering fault detection = and isolation in BIER network.

>

> Comments welcome.

>

> Regards,

> Nagendra (on behalf of authors)

>

> On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <i= nternet-drafts@ietf.org>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >A New Internet-Draft is available from t= he on-line Internet-Drafts

> >directories.

> >

> >

> >      &nbs= p; Title           : BIER= Ping and Trace

> >       &nb= sp;Authors         : Nagendra Kumar=

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Carlos Pignataro

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Nobo Akiya

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Lianshu Zheng

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Mach Chen

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Greg Mirsky

> >      &nbs= p;   Filename        : draft-k= umarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt

> >      &nbs= p;   Pages         &= nbsp; : 20

> >      &nbs= p;   Date         &n= bsp;  : 2015-03-06

> >

> >Abstract:

> >   Bit Index Explicit Replicat= ion (BIER) is an architecture that

> >   provides optimal multicast = forwarding through a "BIER domain" without

> >   requiring intermediate rout= ers to maintain any multicast related per-

> >   flow state.  BIER also= does not require any explicit tree-building

> >   protocol for its operation.=   A multicast data packet enters a BIER

> >   domain at a "Bit-Forwa= rding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the

> >   BIER domain at one or more = "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs).

> >   The BFIR router adds a BIER= header to the packet.  The BIER header

> >   contains a bit-string in wh= ich each bit represents exactly one BFER

> >   to forward the packet to.&n= bsp; The set of BFERs to which the multicast

> >   packet needs to be forwarde= d is expressed by setting the bits that

> >   correspond to those routers= in the BIER header.

> >

> >   This document describes the= mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet

> >   format that can be used to = perform failure detection and isolation on

> >   BIER data plane.

> >

> >

> >The IETF datatracker status page for thi= s draft is:

> >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping/

> >

> >There's also a htmlized version availabl= e at:

> >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00=

> >

> >

> >Please note that it may take a couple of= minutes from the time of

> >submission until the htmlized version an= d diff are available at

> >tools.ietf.org.

> >

> >Internet-Drafts are also available by an= onymous FTP at:

> >ftp://ftp.iet= f.org/internet-drafts/

> >

> >________________________________________= _______

> >I-D-Announce mailing list

> >I-D-Announce@ietf.or= g

> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce

> >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/s= hadow.html or

> >ftp://f= tp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

>

> ____________________________________________= ___

> BIER mailing list

> BIER@ietf.org

> https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826A874eusaamb103ericsso_-- From nobody Mon Mar 9 15:17:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979521AC3E9 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2015 15:17:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wXS_5blRI5mh for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2015 15:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 940AF1ACCFF for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2015 15:16:58 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f796f6d000004ccc-b5-54fdbab164f6 Received: from EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.96]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id DF.B9.19660.1BABDF45; 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Mon, 9 Mar 2015 15:54:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VpOP-nsD-lTA for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2015 15:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99EF31ACE02 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2015 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.22.227.238] ([162.210.130.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id t29MrtBM032256 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 9 Mar 2015 15:53:55 -0700 Message-ID: <54FE2483.8030403@acm.org> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:53:55 -0700 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bier@ietf.org References: <20150309225145.1246.42035.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20150309225145.1246.42035.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20150309225145.1246.42035.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVaAI4s58xuhMJ0Llw7fTHIdcCMY0bTuUB8IC5BFchJJB4ANvGYSrjZ8C4JPeQvuOkcTmJPIO16YzvWPPm9yVSKm X-Sonic-ID: C;jL0qKq/G5BGvzu8Jj30JFw== M;EOhEKq/G5BGvzu8Jj30JFw== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-rtg-dt-encap-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 22:54:10 -0000 -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-rtg-dt-encap-01.txt Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:51:45 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Jon Hudson , Tom Herbert , Lawrence Kreeger , Patricia Thaler , Patricia Thaler , Jon Hudson , Albert Tian , Jesse Gross , Albert Tian , Pankaj Garg , Pankaj Garg , Tom Herbert , Jesse Gross , Erik Nordmark , Lawrence Kreeger , Erik Nordmark A new version of I-D, draft-rtg-dt-encap-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Erik Nordmark and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-rtg-dt-encap Revision: 01 Title: Encapsulation Considerations Document date: 2015-03-09 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 37 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rtg-dt-encap-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtg-dt-encap/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rtg-dt-encap-01 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-rtg-dt-encap-01 Abstract: The IETF Routing Area director has chartered a design team to look at common issues for the different data plane encapsulations being discussed in the NVO3 and SFC working groups and also in the BIER BoF, and also to look at the relationship between such encapsulations in the case that they might be used at the same time. The purpose of this design team is to discover, discuss and document considerations across the different encapsulations in the different WGs/BoFs so that we can reduce the number of wheels that need to be reinvented in the future. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Tue Mar 10 10:08:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDFB71A1EF6 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pyZJFU0Lrji7 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CBAB1A00D6 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:08:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=36408; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426007283; x=1427216883; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=gDa1RY5mUDUAegPmuUHpy6BV4NieXhsXSgWZ2Cm7afU=; b=XkeCOXd9WqQu/zATE3Cc+s5YA/2U4qmjiXeUeYlC3TFlOEjgi1alK7Eo W4GrlXoRzAEufVWqFV2Bxh0xAISVPscmSOnMhavSZbe1+BhJux9L0+Jhc h+B+D/xNt1VFzgTf2Arc6h+97JdukjmiR2EGYnQTxMwWyaZmVhyovpC03 w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0COBQDLI/9U/4oNJK1cgkNDUl7AVjwtgSQZAQmFcAKBNDgUAQEBAQEBAXyEDwEBAQMBAQEBKjoHCwUHBgEIEQEDAQEhAQYuCxQDBggCBAENBQkWiAgIDcIFAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4sShEMHIAQHBgOEIgWPdoNfhWaBGjmCZoJShkOCSYM+I4F/AxyBUG8BgUN/AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,375,1422921600"; d="scan'208,217";a="130565887" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Mar 2015 17:08:02 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2AH824l006387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:08:02 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.151]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 12:08:02 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaAgAKhhkCAA+G9AA== Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:08:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826A874@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.8.130913 x-originating-ip: [10.24.131.127] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D123A0DA90C56naikumarciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:08:07 -0000 --_000_D123A0DA90C56naikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tony, Thanks for your time and comments. Please see inline=85 As individual cat meowing ;-) :: OK, read through the draft and here's a bunch of observations @ different l= evels: a) To verify my understanding first: i) it looks like the answer can be given in-band (via BIER which will= verify bi-directional continuity) or out-band (via BIER) while the request= is always in-band (which makes sense). The packet format is flexible to be used for both in-band and ou= t-band. But the request is not necessarily to be always in-band. a. Which address is used when replying UDP then? The sender=92s handle= does not carry IPv4 address semantics and the OAM packet is not IP. The mo= st likely candidate is upstream interface TLV but it says specifically that= it=92s the replhying BFR that sets it. Thanks for bringing this up. We have not included the IP based r= eply in this revision of the document. One option that we thought and discu= ssed initially is around the use of BFIR ID from the OAM packet and get the= associated BFR-Prefix from local IGP database. The other option is to incl= ude a TLV carrying the address of originator to be used for reply (like Rep= ly-to address) :) j) It looks like there are no provisions in the OAM currently for any= thing but straight ping carrying additionally the mask @ the node (i.e. no= t throughput, loss ratios, alarms and so on) The primary focus of this document is to get the fault detection= and isolation. So we have not included the performance measurement in this= document. Greg raised this point already and we thought it is better to ha= ve a different document covering it. b) As first SI-BS TLVs: i) Bistring Len of a byte is not described further and assuming it's = to be interpreted as one-byte unsigned int, this won't work. Even if become= s 2 bytes, to prevent things like bitstring len =3D 11 being advertised in = the original SI-BS TLV I suggest to follow the 4 bits encoding used in MPLS= draft (which I think should be moved to the architecture draft and probabl= y extended to arbitrary number of bits by the means of a simple formula [w= hich MPLS encaps draft uses] 32 * 2 ^ (len field value interpreted as unsigned int) ) Yes, the intention was to follow the encapsulation draft definiti= on and interpretation. While we already referred the encapsulation draft fo= r interpretation, I think it makes sense to make it as 4 bits size as in en= capsulation draft. I will change this. ii) given we can reply out-of-band (i.e. without any labels or following t= he BIER sub-domain but using IP substrate) I do not think that the SI-BS TL= Vs can get away without carrying sub-domains. Set ID and BFR-ID are specifi= c both to a BIER domain and sub-domain so they can be confused. The domain = can be distinguished by the loopback. I do not expect people provisioning l= oopback per sub-domain and in fact the IGP drafts today are not intended to= do so [the BGP won=92t allow it assuming a single BIER-prefix]). I would c= onsider relying on =91sender=92s handle=92-matching to disassociate subdoma= in/set architecturally sub-optimal. Can you clarify if this comment is regarding sending the reply or= receiving the reply?. Did you meant that the TLV doesn=92t have Sub-domain= id and any deviation (due to some failure) may not be able to detect with = SI and BFR-ID?. If so, I think, this needs a bit of clarity in the document= . We will include the same. If my assumption on your query is wrong, please= let me know. c) I see that the responder BFR TLV allows for BFRs without BFR-ids to= respond but I fail to see how they are triggered to do so since it is the= target SI-BS TLV which describes the necessary responders and that carries= a bitstring only which relies on BFR-ids being assigned The use of Target SI-BS TLV is optional for ping and is used to= control the responding BFERs. A transit node will use it only for entropy = calculation towards the BFER in Target SI-BS TLV. Once again, thanks a lot for your comments. Regards, Nagendra Thanks --- tony --- There are basically two types of people. People who accomplish things, and = people who claim to have accomplished things. The first group is less crowded. = ~~~ Mark Twain > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nagendra Kumar > Nainar (naikumar) > Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 5:37 AM > To: bier@ietf.org > Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Mach Chen; Nobo Akiya; > vero.zheng@huawei.com > Subject: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt > > Hi BIER, > > Below is the draft covering fault detection and isolation in BIER network= . > > Comments welcome. > > Regards, > Nagendra (on behalf of authors) > > On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > > wrote: > > > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >directories. > > > > > > Title : BIER Ping and Trace > > Authors : Nagendra Kumar > > Carlos Pignataro > > Nobo Akiya > > Lianshu Zheng > > Mach Chen > > Greg Mirsky > > Filename : draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt > > Pages : 20 > > Date : 2015-03-06 > > > >Abstract: > > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that > > provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without > > requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- > > flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building > > protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER > > domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the > > BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). > > The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header > > contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER > > to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast > > packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that > > correspond to those routers in the BIER header. > > > > This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet > > format that can be used to perform failure detection and isolation on > > BIER data plane. > > > > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping/ > > > >There's also a htmlized version available at: > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00 > > > > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > >submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > >tools.ietf.org. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >I-D-Announce mailing list > >I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --_000_D123A0DA90C56naikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <3ED71D12D2CDC9498C5036FD2EFE8D4F@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tony,

Thanks for your time and comments. Please see inline=85

As individual cat meowing ;-)  ::  

 

OK, read through the draft and here's a bunch of = observations @ different levels:

 

a)   =    To verify my understanding first:

i)   =     it looks like the answer can be given in-band (= via BIER which will verify bi-directional continuity) or out-band (via BIER= ) while the request is always in-band (which makes sense).

<Nagendra> The packet format is flexible to be used for both in-= band and out-band. But the request is not necessarily to be always in-band.=

a.   =    Which address is used when replying UDP then? T= he sender=92s handle does not carry IPv4 address semantics and the OAM pack= et is not IP. The most likely candidate is upstream interface TLV but it sa= ys specifically that it=92s the replhying BFR that sets it.
<Nagendra> Thanks for bringing this up. We have not included the= IP based reply in this revision of the document. One option that we though= t and discussed initially is around the use of BFIR ID from the OAM packet = and get the associated BFR-Prefix from local IGP database. The other option is to include a TLV carrying the addr= ess of originator to be used for reply (like Reply-to address) :)

j)   =     It looks like there are no provisions in the OA= M currently for anything but straight ping carrying additionally the mask @= the node  (i.e. not throughput, loss ratios, alarms and so on)

<Nagendra> The primary focus of this document is to get the faul= t detection and isolation. So we have not included the performance measurem= ent in this document. Greg raised this point already and we thought it is b= etter to have a different document covering it.

b)   =    As first SI-BS TLVs:

i)   =     Bistring Len of a byte is not described further= and assuming it's to be interpreted as one-byte unsigned int, this won't w= ork. Even if becomes 2 bytes, to prevent things like bitstring len =3D 11 b= eing advertised in the original SI-BS TLV I suggest to follow the 4 bits encoding used in MPLS draft (which I th= ink should be moved to the architecture draft and probably extended to arbi= trary number of bits  by the means of a simple formula [which MPLS enc= aps draft uses]

 

32 * = 2 ^ (len field value interpreted as unsigned int)

=  

)

<Nagendra>Yes, the intention was to follow the encapsulation dra= ft definition and interpretation. While we already referred the encapsulati= on draft for interpretation, I think it makes sense to make it as 4 bits si= ze as in encapsulation draft. I will change this.

=

 

ii)  given we can= reply out-of-band (i.e. without any labels or following the BIER sub-domai= n but using IP substrate) I do not think that the SI-BS TLVs can get away w= ithout carrying sub-domains. Set ID and BFR-ID are specific both to a BIER domain and sub-domain so they can be confused.= The domain can be distinguished by the loopback. I do not expect people pr= ovisioning loopback per sub-domain and in fact the IGP drafts today are not= intended to do so [the BGP won=92t allow it assuming a single BIER-prefix]). I would consider relying on =91s= ender=92s handle=92-matching to disassociate subdomain/set architecturally = sub-optimal.

<Nagendra>Can you clarify if this comment is regarding sending t= he reply or receiving the reply?. Did you meant that the TLV doesn=92t have= Sub-domain id and any deviation (due to some failure) may not be able to d= etect with SI and BFR-ID?. If so, I think, this needs a bit of clarity in the document. We will include the same. If = my assumption on your query is wrong, please let me know.
 

c)   =    I see that the responder BFR TLV allows for BFR= s without BFR-ids to respond but  I fail to see how they are triggered= to do so since it is the target SI-BS TLV which describes the necessary re= sponders and that carries a bitstring only which relies on BFR-ids being assigned

 <Nagendra> The use of Target SI-= BS TLV is optional for ping and is used to control the responding BFERs. A = transit node will use it only for entropy calculation towards the BFER in T= arget SI-BS TLV. 

Once again, thanks a lot for your comments.

Regards,
Nagendra

Thanks

 

--- tony

 

---

There are basically two types of people. People w= ho accomplish things, and people

who claim to have accomplished things. The first = group is less crowded.

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      ~~~ Mark Twain

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nagendra Kumar

> Nainar (naikumar)

> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 5:37 AM

> To: bier@ie= tf.org

> Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Carlos Pignataro (cpigna= ta); Mach Chen; Nobo Akiya;

> ver= o.zheng@huawei.com

> Subject: [Bier] FW: I-D Action: draft-kumarz= heng-bier-ping-00.txt

>

> Hi BIER,

>

> Below is the draft covering fault detection = and isolation in BIER network.

>

> Comments welcome.

>

> Regards,

> Nagendra (on behalf of authors)

>

> On 3/6/15, 8:31 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <i= nternet-drafts@ietf.org>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >A New Internet-Draft is available from t= he on-line Internet-Drafts

> >directories.

> >

> >

> >      &nbs= p; Title           : BIER= Ping and Trace

> >       &nb= sp;Authors         : Nagendra Kumar=

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Carlos Pignataro

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Nobo Akiya

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Lianshu Zheng

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Mach Chen

> >      &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Greg Mirsky

> >      &nbs= p;   Filename        : draft-k= umarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt

> >      &nbs= p;   Pages         &= nbsp; : 20

> >      &nbs= p;   Date         &n= bsp;  : 2015-03-06

> >

> >Abstract:

> >   Bit Index Explicit Replicat= ion (BIER) is an architecture that

> >   provides optimal multicast = forwarding through a "BIER domain" without

> >   requiring intermediate rout= ers to maintain any multicast related per-

> >   flow state.  BIER also= does not require any explicit tree-building

> >   protocol for its operation.=   A multicast data packet enters a BIER

> >   domain at a "Bit-Forwa= rding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the

> >   BIER domain at one or more = "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs).

> >   The BFIR router adds a BIER= header to the packet.  The BIER header

> >   contains a bit-string in wh= ich each bit represents exactly one BFER

> >   to forward the packet to.&n= bsp; The set of BFERs to which the multicast

> >   packet needs to be forwarde= d is expressed by setting the bits that

> >   correspond to those routers= in the BIER header.

> >

> >   This document describes the= mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet

> >   format that can be used to = perform failure detection and isolation on

> >   BIER data plane.

> >

> >

> >The IETF datatracker status page for thi= s draft is:

> >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping/

> >

> >There's also a htmlized version availabl= e at:

> >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00=

> >

> >

> >Please note that it may take a couple of= minutes from the time of

> >submission until the htmlized version an= d diff are available at

> >tools.ietf.org.

> >

> >Internet-Drafts are also available by an= onymous FTP at:

> >ftp://ftp.iet= f.org/internet-drafts/

> >

> >________________________________________= _______

> >I-D-Announce mailing list

> >I-D-Announce@ietf.or= g

> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce

> >Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/s= hadow.html or

> >ftp://f= tp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

>

> ____________________________________________= ___

> BIER mailing list

> BIER@ietf.org

> https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

 --_000_D123A0DA90C56naikumarciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 10:24:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B341A6FEE for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:24:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vzml7W919iiJ for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DF7D1A2130 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79876d000003ebd-5e-54fed3be1cec Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 86.35.16061.EB3DEF45; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 12:21:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 13:24:18 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaAgAKhhkCAA+G9AP//8llw Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:24:17 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826BD51@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826A874@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826BD51eusaamb103ericsso_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprJIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt+7+y/9CDN5sF7FYOmMPk8WndztY LC6sFbZ4PXEqm8WTc+9YLM6uucPqwOYx5fdGVo+ds+6ye7QcecvqsWTJT6YAligum5TUnMyy 1CJ9uwSujF231zEXTDjAWPG4YT5rA+O3JYxdjJwcEgImEhs/v2CDsMUkLtxbD2RzcQgJHGGU eLjzFyOEs5xRYsLRt0wgVWwCFhKXvz1lBrFFBOIkDk1cyQRSxCzwjFHi6dl5YKOEBawk9mx8 wAJRZC1xs2EZVIObxPVVy8FsFgFVid1bZ4KdwSvgLfH0+CewuJBAocSEZbvBlnEKGEisfTUF LM4IdN73U2vA4swC4hK3nsxngjhbQGLJnvPMELaoxMvH/1ghbCWJOa+vMUPU50u8X/acGWKX oMTJmU9YJjCKzkIyahaSsllIyiDiOhILdn9ig7C1JZYtfM0MY5858JgJWXwBI/sqRo7S4tSy 3HQjg02MwLg8JsGmu4Nxz0vLQ4wCHIxKPLwb3v4NEWJNLCuuzD3EKM3BoiTOu+jBwRAhgfTE ktTs1NSC1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjFlepa9Ni6SOcvCstv95cbatguEexrjDu3ee2JK65c0R m7rqS4WHzWX+qZYv0evecuzpvIs3da/8c5a44hIi6rvz1RRd5tyz9uvvLPRbOGvhRJk7fAuO OrAv/1fZ8Hyn2I5jS33++Vww+C4lcTDfbY+dTsTJ/N3zLTZl3RG9b/Po9ktuptbVSyYosRRn JBpqMRcVJwIAQcTGyKwCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:24:35 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826BD51eusaamb103ericsso_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nagendra, To verify my understanding first: i) it looks like the answer can be given in-band (via BIER which will= verify bi-directional continuity) or out-band (via BIER) while the request= is always in-band (which makes sense). The packet format is flexible to be used for both in-band and ou= t-band. But the request is not necessarily to be always in-band. [Tony saiz:] Then I didn't see how you can send a request 'out-of-band', i.= e. not by means of BIER. The OAM is carrier on a BIER protocol field so it= looks to me it's carried in-band-on BIER (which makes sense). Unless you m= ean that I can OAM a subdomain via BIER'ing OAM via another sub-domain (suc= h as we have a management topology in MT). Seems unlikely to me. a. Which address is used when replying UDP then? The sender's handle d= oes not carry IPv4 address semantics and the OAM packet is not IP. The most= likely candidate is upstream interface TLV but it says specifically that i= t's the replhying BFR that sets it. Thanks for bringing this up. We have not included the IP based r= eply in this revision of the document. One option that we thought and discu= ssed initially is around the use of BFIR ID from the OAM packet and get the= associated BFR-Prefix from local IGP database. The other option is to incl= ude a TLV carrying the address of originator to be used for reply (like Rep= ly-to address) :) [Tony saiz:] I think IGP tying it together is fine for the moment. That's h= ow the whole architecture is put together. There will be always a prefix to= BFR-id association. As subtle note, we're putting the requirement here tha= t the prefix is routable but that seems fair. At least in IGP it's carried = in TLVs that compute reachable routes. j) It looks like there are no provisions in the OAM currently for any= thing but straight ping carrying additionally the mask @ the node (i.e. no= t throughput, loss ratios, alarms and so on) The primary focus of this document is to get the fault detection= and isolation. So we have not included the performance measurement in this= document. Greg raised this point already and we thought it is better to ha= ve a different document covering it. [Tony saiz:] OK, my observation would be then that we need ideally a packet= format to accommodate future OAM directions without putting it into anothe= r BIER protocol. a) As first SI-BS TLVs: i) Bistring Len of a byte is not described further and assuming it's = to be interpreted as one-byte unsigned int, this won't work. Even if become= s 2 bytes, to prevent things like bitstring len =3D 11 being advertised in = the original SI-BS TLV I suggest to follow the 4 bits encoding used in MPLS= draft (which I think should be moved to the architecture draft and probabl= y extended to arbitrary number of bits by the means of a simple formula [w= hich MPLS encaps draft uses] 32 * 2 ^ (len field value interpreted as unsigned int) ) Yes, the intention was to follow the encapsulation draft definiti= on and interpretation. While we already referred the encapsulation draft fo= r interpretation, I think it makes sense to make it as 4 bits size as in en= capsulation draft. I will change this. [Tony saiz:] thanks. ii) given we can reply out-of-band (i.e. without any labels or following t= he BIER sub-domain but using IP substrate) I do not think that the SI-BS TL= Vs can get away without carrying sub-domains. Set ID and BFR-ID are specifi= c both to a BIER domain and sub-domain so they can be confused. The domain = can be distinguished by the loopback. I do not expect people provisioning l= oopback per sub-domain and in fact the IGP drafts today are not intended to= do so [the BGP won't allow it assuming a single BIER-prefix]). I would con= sider relying on 'sender's handle'-matching to disassociate subdomain/set a= rchitecturally sub-optimal. Can you clarify if this comment is regarding sending the reply or= receiving the reply?. Did you meant that the TLV doesn't have Sub-domain i= d and any deviation (due to some failure) may not be able to detect with SI= and BFR-ID?. If so, I think, this needs a bit of clarity in the document. = We will include the same. If my assumption on your query is wrong, please l= et me know. [Tony saiz:] Yes, I meant that you will not be able necessarily to derive s= ubdomain-id from the response as far I see the packet formats. If you e.g. = carry labels, those may have changed in the meantime. A single prefix can = have many sub-domains under it per architecture & IGP drafts. b) I see that the responder BFR TLV allows for BFRs without BFR-ids to= respond but I fail to see how they are triggered to do so since it is the= target SI-BS TLV which describes the necessary responders and that carries= a bitstring only which relies on BFR-ids being assigned The use of Target SI-BS TLV is optional for ping and is used to= control the responding BFERs. A transit node will use it only for entropy = calculation towards the BFER in Target SI-BS TLV. [Tony saiz:] oh, ok, need to scratch my head over it. Overall, the document is reach in packet formats and a little lean on the p= rocedures section ;-) --- tony --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826BD51eusaamb103ericsso_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nagendra,

 

To verify my understanding first:

i)  =      it looks like th= e answer can be given in-band (via BIER which will verify bi-directional co= ntinuity) or out-band (via BIER) while the request is always in-band (which= makes sense).

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra> The packet format is flexible to be used for both in-band and out= -band. But the request is not necessarily to be always in-band.<= /span>

[Tony saiz:] The= n I didn’t see how you can send a request ‘out-of-band’, = i.e. not by means of BIER.  The OAM is carrier on a BIER protocol fiel= d so it looks to me it’s carried in-band-on BIER (which makes sense). Unless you mean that I can OAM a subdomain via BIER’ing OAM = via another sub-domain (such as we have a management topology in MT). Seems= unlikely to me.

&n= bsp;

a.  =     Which address is= used when replying UDP then? The sender’s handle does not carry IPv4= address semantics and the OAM packet is not IP. The most likely candidate = is upstream interface TLV but it says specifically that it’s the replhying BFR that sets it.

<Nag= endra> Thanks for bringing this up. We have not included the IP based re= ply in this revision of the document. One option that we thought and discus= sed initially is around the use of BFIR ID from the OAM packet and get the associated BFR-Prefix from local IGP datab= ase. The other option is to include a TLV carrying the address of originato= r to be used for reply (like Reply-to address) :)

[Tony saiz:] I t= hink IGP tying it together is fine for the moment. That’s how the who= le architecture is put together. There will be always a prefix to BFR-id as= sociation. As subtle note, we’re putting the requirement here that the prefix is routable but that seems fair. At least= in IGP it’s carried in TLVs that compute reachable routes.  

&n= bsp;

j)  =      It looks like th= ere are no provisions in the OAM currently for anything but straight ping c= arrying additionally the mask @ the node  (i.e. not throughput, loss r= atios, alarms and so on)

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra> The primary focus of this document is to get the fault detection = and isolation. So we have not included the performance measurement in this = document. Greg raised this point already and we thought it is better to have a different document covering it.

[Tony saiz:] OK,= my observation would be then that we need ideally a packet format to accom= modate future OAM directions without putting it into another BIER protocol.

&n= bsp;

a)  =     As first SI-BS T= LVs:

i)  =      Bistring Len of = a byte is not described further and assuming it's to be interpreted as one-= byte unsigned int, this won't work. Even if becomes 2 bytes, to prevent thi= ngs like bitstring len =3D 11 being advertised in the original SI-BS TLV I suggest to follow the 4 bits encodi= ng used in MPLS draft (which I think should be moved to the architecture dr= aft and probably extended to arbitrary number of bits  by the means of= a simple formula [which MPLS encaps draft uses]

 

32 * 2 ^ (len field value interpreted as unsigned in= t)

 

)

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra>Yes, the intention was to follow the encapsulation draft definitio= n and interpretation. While we already referred the encapsulation draft for= interpretation, I think it makes sense to make it as 4 bits size as in encapsulation draft. I will change this.=

[Tony saiz:] tha= nks.

 

ii)  given we can reply out-of-band (i.e. without any labels or = following the BIER sub-domain but using IP substrate) I do not think that t= he SI-BS TLVs can get away without carrying sub-domains. Set ID and BFR-ID are specific both to a BIER domain and sub-= domain so they can be confused. The domain can be distinguished by the loop= back. I do not expect people provisioning loopback per sub-domain and in fa= ct the IGP drafts today are not intended to do so [the BGP won’t allow it assuming a single BIER-pre= fix]). I would consider relying on ‘sender’s handle’-matc= hing to disassociate subdomain/set architecturally sub-optimal.<= /span>

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra>Can you clarify if this comment is regarding sending the reply or = receiving the reply?. Did you meant that the TLV doesn’t have Sub-dom= ain id and any deviation (due to some failure) may not be able to detect with SI and BFR-ID?. If so, I think, this needs a bi= t of clarity in the document. We will include the same. If my assumption on= your query is wrong, please let me know.

[Tony saiz:] Yes= , I meant that you will not be able necessarily to derive subdomain-id from= the response as far I see the packet formats. If you e.g. carry labels, th= ose may have changed in the meantime.  A single prefix can have many sub-domains under it per architecture & = IGP drafts.

 <= o:p>

b)  =     I see that the r= esponder BFR TLV allows for BFRs without BFR-ids to respond but  I fai= l to see how they are triggered to do so since it is the target SI-BS TLV w= hich describes the necessary responders and that carries a bitstring only which relies on BFR-ids being assigned <= o:p>

 <Nagendra>= ; The use of Target SI-BS TLV is optional for ping and is used to control t= he responding BFERs. A transit node will use it only for entropy calculatio= n towards the BFER in Target SI-BS TLV. 

[Tony saiz:] = oh, ok, need to scratch my head over it.

 

Overall, the = document is reach in packet formats and a little lean on the procedures sec= tion ;-)

 

--- tony

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826BD51eusaamb103ericsso_-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 16:51:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F331A9059 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 16:51:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EL83ECft7Ety for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 16:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FB301A8AC2 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 16:51:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=31511; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426031514; x=1427241114; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=qNDS6lO6KAFEIkoFJ/VplYDVkVXU8wVw/hFxqgyWXz8=; b=QfY+UZTsRjHXs5/ydkFDaJjp0MSc6SKCRJu9pi4JyfCN+BxPrR/R5//7 iX/2IxMcWUYgy2DePFewmdZM8zrNuNOkVdrigkAyM1UsJZL7hustpRfHC HKPiXuUxvYJtK4sBbxpPUCzYDl/+u9Thd1kY+IqFfiiw7Db6+dbWMxCNA 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0C5CQCRgv9U/4wNJK1cgkNDUl7Ad4gnAoE1TQEBAQEBAXyEEAIELToSEgEIEiYBPxcOAgQBDSSIEMYWAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4sXhEMHJAcChCsFkBmJW4EagyiLcoNDI4F/AxyBUIIzfwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,378,1422921600"; d="scan'208,217";a="402531749" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Mar 2015 23:51:52 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com [173.37.183.87]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2ANpq9F004464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Mar 2015 23:51:52 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.151]) by xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com ([173.37.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 18:51:51 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaAgAKhhkCAA+G9AP//8llwgAB/e4A= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 23:51:51 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826BD51@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.8.130913 x-originating-ip: [10.24.96.64] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D124AB0F9277Bnaikumarciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 23:51:56 -0000 --_000_D124AB0F9277Bnaikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tony, Nagendra, To verify my understanding first: i) it looks like the answer can be given in-band (via BIER which will= verify bi-directional continuity) or out-band (via BIER) while the request= is always in-band (which makes sense). The packet format is flexible to be used for both in-band and ou= t-band. But the request is not necessarily to be always in-band. [Tony saiz:] Then I didn=92t see how you can send a request =91out-of-band= =92, i.e. not by means of BIER. The OAM is carrier on a BIER protocol fiel= d so it looks to me it=92s carried in-band-on BIER (which makes sense). Unl= ess you mean that I can OAM a subdomain via BIER=92ing OAM via another sub-= domain (such as we have a management topology in MT). Seems unlikely to me. ah. Ok. By in-band and out-band,you meant - with BIER protocol= :). I misunderstood it as in band to data traffic. Yes. That is right. a. Which address is used when replying UDP then? The sender=92s handle= does not carry IPv4 address semantics and the OAM packet is not IP. The mo= st likely candidate is upstream interface TLV but it says specifically that= it=92s the replhying BFR that sets it. Thanks for bringing this up. We have not included the IP based r= eply in this revision of the document. One option that we thought and discu= ssed initially is around the use of BFIR ID from the OAM packet and get the= associated BFR-Prefix from local IGP database. The other option is to incl= ude a TLV carrying the address of originator to be used for reply (like Rep= ly-to address) :) [Tony saiz:] I think IGP tying it together is fine for the moment. That=92s= how the whole architecture is put together. There will be always a prefix = to BFR-id association. As subtle note, we=92re putting the requirement here= that the prefix is routable but that seems fair. At least in IGP it=92s ca= rried in TLVs that compute reachable routes. Ok. We are considering both the options for discussion. Future = revision will be updated with this information. j) It looks like there are no provisions in the OAM currently for any= thing but straight ping carrying additionally the mask @ the node (i.e. no= t throughput, loss ratios, alarms and so on) The primary focus of this document is to get the fault detection= and isolation. So we have not included the performance measurement in this= document. Greg raised this point already and we thought it is better to ha= ve a different document covering it. [Tony saiz:] OK, my observation would be then that we need ideally a packet= format to accommodate future OAM directions without putting it into anothe= r BIER protocol. This is one of the consideration we had in mind while discussio= n on the format. The OAM packet format is TLV based and depending on the me= ssage type (that can be for CC CV, PM etc), the TLV format can be defined (= fixed or variable). a) As first SI-BS TLVs: i) Bistring Len of a byte is not described further and assuming it's = to be interpreted as one-byte unsigned int, this won't work. Even if become= s 2 bytes, to prevent things like bitstring len =3D 11 being advertised in = the original SI-BS TLV I suggest to follow the 4 bits encoding used in MPLS= draft (which I think should be moved to the architecture draft and probabl= y extended to arbitrary number of bits by the means of a simple formula [w= hich MPLS encaps draft uses] 32 * 2 ^ (len field value interpreted as unsigned int) ) Yes, the intention was to follow the encapsulation draft definiti= on and interpretation. While we already referred the encapsulation draft fo= r interpretation, I think it makes sense to make it as 4 bits size as in en= capsulation draft. I will change this. [Tony saiz:] thanks. ii) given we can reply out-of-band (i.e. without any labels or following t= he BIER sub-domain but using IP substrate) I do not think that the SI-BS TL= Vs can get away without carrying sub-domains. Set ID and BFR-ID are specifi= c both to a BIER domain and sub-domain so they can be confused. The domain = can be distinguished by the loopback. I do not expect people provisioning l= oopback per sub-domain and in fact the IGP drafts today are not intended to= do so [the BGP won=92t allow it assuming a single BIER-prefix]). I would c= onsider relying on =91sender=92s handle=92-matching to disassociate subdoma= in/set architecturally sub-optimal. Can you clarify if this comment is regarding sending the reply or= receiving the reply?. Did you meant that the TLV doesn=92t have Sub-domain= id and any deviation (due to some failure) may not be able to detect with = SI and BFR-ID?. If so, I think, this needs a bit of clarity in the document= . We will include the same. If my assumption on your query is wrong, please= let me know. [Tony saiz:] Yes, I meant that you will not be able necessarily to derive s= ubdomain-id from the response as far I see the packet formats. If you e.g. = carry labels, those may have changed in the meantime. A single prefix can = have many sub-domains under it per architecture & IGP drafts. ok. We will include this. b) I see that the responder BFR TLV allows for BFRs without BFR-ids to= respond but I fail to see how they are triggered to do so since it is the= target SI-BS TLV which describes the necessary responders and that carries= a bitstring only which relies on BFR-ids being assigned The use of Target SI-BS TLV is optional for ping and is used to= control the responding BFERs. A transit node will use it only for entropy = calculation towards the BFER in Target SI-BS TLV. [Tony saiz:] oh, ok, need to scratch my head over it. Overall, the document is reach in packet formats and a little lean on the p= rocedures section ;-) Thanks. It will be updated :) Regards, Nagendra --_000_D124AB0F9277Bnaikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <2367CC02049E6744A2D92414938FFBB7@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tony,


Nagendra,

 

To verify my understanding first:

i)       it looks lik= e the answer can be given in-band (via BIER which will verify bi-directiona= l continuity) or out-band (via BIER) while the request is always in-band (w= hich makes sense).

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra> The packet format is flexible to be used for both in-band and out= -band. But the request is not necessarily to be always in-band.<= /span>

[Tony saiz:] The= n I didn=92t see how you can send a request =91out-of-band=92, i.e. not by = means of BIER.  The OAM is carrier on a BIER protocol field so it look= s to me it=92s carried in-band-on BIER (which makes sense). Unless you mean that I can OAM a subdomain via BIER=92ing OAM via = another sub-domain (such as we have a management topology in MT). Seems unl= ikely to me.


&l= t;Nagendra2> ah. Ok.  By in-band and out-band,you meant - wit= h BIER protocol :). I misunderstood it as in band to data traffic= . Yes. That is right.

a.      Which addres= s is used when replying UDP then? The sender=92s handle does not carry IPv4= address semantics and the OAM packet is not IP. The most likely candidate = is upstream interface TLV but it says specifically that it=92s the replhying BFR that sets it.=

<Nag= endra> Thanks for bringing this up. We have not included the IP based re= ply in this revision of the document. One option that we thought and discus= sed initially is around the use of BFIR ID from the OAM packet and get the associated BFR-Prefix from local IGP datab= ase. The other option is to include a TLV carrying the address of originato= r to be used for reply (like Reply-to address) :)

[Tony saiz:] I t= hink IGP tying it together is fine for the moment. That=92s how the whole a= rchitecture is put together. There will be always a prefix to BFR-id associ= ation. As subtle note, we=92re putting the requirement here that the prefix is routable but that seems fair. At least= in IGP it=92s carried in TLVs that compute reachable routes.  =

&n= bsp;
<Nagendra2> Ok. We are considering both the options for discussi= on. Future revision will be updated with this information.

j)       It looks lik= e there are no provisions in the OAM currently for anything but straight pi= ng carrying additionally the mask @ the node  (i.e. not throughput, lo= ss ratios, alarms and so on)

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra> The primary focus of this document is to get the fault detection = and isolation. So we have not included the performance measurement in this = document. Greg raised this point already and we thought it is better to have a different document covering it.

[Tony saiz:] OK,= my observation would be then that we need ideally a packet format to accom= modate future OAM directions without putting it into another BIER protocol.=


<Nagendra2> This is one of the consideration we had in mind whil= e discussion on the format. The OAM packet format is TLV based and dependin= g on the message type (that can be for CC CV, PM etc), the TLV format can b= e defined (fixed or variable).  

<= span style=3D"color:#1F497D">

&n= bsp;

a)      As first SI-= BS TLVs:

i)       Bistring Len= of a byte is not described further and assuming it's to be interpreted as = one-byte unsigned int, this won't work. Even if becomes 2 bytes, to prevent= things like bitstring len =3D 11 being advertised in the original SI-BS TLV I suggest to follow the 4 bits encodi= ng used in MPLS draft (which I think should be moved to the architecture dr= aft and probably extended to arbitrary number of bits  by the means of= a simple formula [which MPLS encaps draft uses]

 

32 * 2 ^ (len field value interpreted as unsigned in= t)

 

)

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra>Yes, the intention was to follow the encapsulation draft definitio= n and interpretation. While we already referred the encapsulation draft for= interpretation, I think it makes sense to make it as 4 bits size as in encapsulation draft. I will change this.=

[Tony saiz:] tha= nks.

 

ii)  given we can reply out-of-band (i.e. without any labels or = following the BIER sub-domain but using IP substrate) I do not think that t= he SI-BS TLVs can get away without carrying sub-domains. Set ID and BFR-ID are specific both to a BIER domain and sub-= domain so they can be confused. The domain can be distinguished by the loop= back. I do not expect people provisioning loopback per sub-domain and in fa= ct the IGP drafts today are not intended to do so [the BGP won=92t allow it assuming a single BIER-prefix]= ). I would consider relying on =91sender=92s handle=92-matching to disassoc= iate subdomain/set architecturally sub-optimal.

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra>Can you clarify if this comment is regarding sending the reply or = receiving the reply?. Did you meant that the TLV doesn=92t have Sub-domain = id and any deviation (due to some failure) may not be able to detect with SI and BFR-ID?. If so, I think, this needs a bi= t of clarity in the document. We will include the same. If my assumption on= your query is wrong, please let me know.

[Tony saiz:] Yes= , I meant that you will not be able necessarily to derive subdomain-id from= the response as far I see the packet formats. If you e.g. carry labels, th= ose may have changed in the meantime.  A single prefix can have many sub-domains under it per architecture & = IGP drafts.

<Nagendra2> ok. We will include this.

<= span style=3D"color:#1F497D">

 <= o:p>

b)      I see that t= he responder BFR TLV allows for BFRs without BFR-ids to respond but  I= fail to see how they are triggered to do so since it is the target SI-BS T= LV which describes the necessary responders and that carries a bitstring only which relies on BFR-ids being assigned <= o:p>

 <Nagendra>= ; The use of Target SI-BS TLV is optional for ping and is used to control t= he responding BFERs. A transit node will use it only for entropy calculatio= n towards the BFER in Target SI-BS TLV. 

[Tony saiz:] = oh, ok, need to scratch my head over it.

 
Overall= , the document is reach in packet formats and a little lean on the procedur= es section ;-)

 
<Nagendra2> Thanks. It will be updated :)

Regards,
Nagendra

--_000_D124AB0F9277Bnaikumarciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 18:07:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C761A9141 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 18:07:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hdevu2LUsoFU for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 18:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D42ED1A912D for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 18:07:20 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79876d000003ebd-c7-54ff40386fbb Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 68.BF.16061.8304FF45; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 20:04:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Tue, 10 Mar 2015 21:07:12 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] FYI: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWDoSVuL0hJYVXEa1F7hujSmzup0WecuQ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 01:07:11 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826C3D4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <20150306181907.GX16454@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20150306181907.GX16454@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiK6Fw/8Qgz1n1CyWztjDZLF3+T02 ByaPKb83snosWfKTKYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSvjTa9twVWBilmX9jA3MG7i7WLk5JAQMJHo WvyVCcIWk7hwbz0biC0kcIRR4t653C5GLiB7OaPE60/zWEASbAIWEpe/PWUGsUUE3CV6Xk4C axAWsJTY++wIG0TcSuLDlodQtpHEl/m7WEFsFgFVia0TXoPN4RXwlpg86y/QYg6gBXoSm2dK gIQ5BfQlVu1sAmtlBLrn+6k1YLcxC4hL3HoyH+pOAYkle84zQ9iiEi8f/2OFsJUkJi09xwpR ryOxYPcnNghbW2LZwtfMEGsFJU7OfMIygVF0FpKxs5C0zELSMgtJywJGllWMHKXFqWW56UYG mxiBkXBMgk13B+Oel5aHGAU4GJV4eDe8/RsixJpYVlyZe4hRmoNFSZx30YODIUIC6Yklqdmp qQWpRfFFpTmpxYcYmTg4pRoYy6cGeKUfrv27V+VfWoqciKjSt+XZhyauTODtzz0yL9GqP3+b ZLfKp8tL4+9U2Qj94FZNX6lxqci3VF2G79uf5uJXix1f6nqyr/GofFF3XH3lz0U/1cWZb07c dvS0wYuHssbXHytOfL0iYnW9iHvBPpv/f98FLHkbdb8jaR7vq4+VmmtvPXrdrsRSnJFoqMVc VJwIACRW8ydlAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] FYI: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 01:07:22 -0000 Read it up. Smart. In fact, I think the LFA/FRR should/may be somehow plug= ged outside this work and make independent piece encouraging fast-failover = to provide BTAFTs no matter whether we talk about centralized controllers o= r each IGP doing their thing.=20 Only fairly obvious observation I would have is that the #bits without SIs = and the fact that bits represent adjacencies is a fairly restrictive scalin= g limitation compared to bit per BFER.=20 Thanks=20 --- tony=20 There are basically two types of people. People who accomplish things, and = people who claim to have accomplished things. The first group is less crowd= ed. ~~~ Mark Twain > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert > Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 10:19 AM > To: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] FYI: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00.txt >=20 > In Milan, someone raised the question if BIER could do traffic engineerin= g.. >=20 > I have posted a draft proposing on how one could do traffic engineering w= ith > BIER (explicit hop-by-hop paths, FRR). The goal of course is to stick t= o the > principles of BIER. >=20 > Please let me know what you think. Of course this is just a -00, any fee= dback > welcome! >=20 > Thanks > Toerless >=20 > In-Reply-To: <20150306180925.17081.39629.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> >=20 > On Fri, Mar 06, 2015 at 10:09:25AM -0800, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00.txt has been > > successfully submitted by Toerless Eckert and posted to the IETF > > repository. > > > > Name: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Traffic Enginering for Bit Index Explicit Replication BIER-TE > > Document date: 2015-03-05 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 21 > > URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eckert-bier-t= e-arch- > 00.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-a= rch/ > > Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00 > > > >=20 From nobody Wed Mar 11 07:55:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A371A88E6 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:55:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R-ohhltMainQ for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0108.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 124D71AC41D for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.36.92] (66.129.241.14) by BN3PR0501MB1092.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.113.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.106.15; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:55:19 +0000 Message-ID: <5500574E.9020502@juniper.net> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:55:10 -0400 From: Eric C Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.14] X-ClientProxiedBy: DM2PR07CA0051.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.52.179) To BN3PR0501MB1092.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.113.139) Authentication-Results: huawei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1092; X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: BMV:1; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(6049001)(23746002)(50986999)(40100003)(36756003)(2501003)(83506001)(64126003)(47776003)(65816999)(54356999)(87976001)(92566002)(122386002)(76176999)(77156002)(33656002)(87266999)(62966003)(230783001)(77096005)(66066001)(42186005)(46102003)(86362001)(59896002)(2950100001)(50466002)(65956001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1092; H:[172.29.36.92]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5002009)(5005006); SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1092; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1092; X-Forefront-PRVS: 0512CC5201 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Mar 2015 14:55:19.0485 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0501MB1092 Archived-At: Cc: "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , Gregory Mirsky , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" , erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:55:26 -0000 I have a few questions and comments. First, thanks for not calling it "bier-pong" ;-) Any TLV that has a BitString and an SI also has to have a sub-domain id, or else the set of BFERs identified in the BitString cannot be determined (nor can the BFIR). I don't understand why it makes sense to use the BIER data plane to respond to a ping or traceroute. I'd think you'd want to avoid BIER in the reverse direction, and use ICMP to send back the responses. This would mean that the request needs to have the IP address to which to respond. (If you do use BIER for the responses, you'd certainly need to know the sub-domain in which to interpret the BFIR, and you'd need to know the sub-domain to choose the right BIER-MPLS label.) Overall, I agree with Tony that the draft would benefit from a lot more attention to procedures -- the document really doesn't make clear just how you put together the set of TLVs to actually do a traceroute (or even a ping). Until it's clear just what information needs to be carried forwards and back, there's no point in discussing TLV formats. For the traceroute case, the draft also needs to address the issue of how the initiator should collate the replies to figure out what path actually gets followed by a given data packet. If a user says, "I'm getting spotty service when I try to receive a given data stream", how would one use these mechanisms to troubleshoot? If you wanted to troubleshoot a problems with a particular user data stream, I think you'd need to know the entropy value of the data packets in the troublesome data stream. You'd want to specify the entropy and find out what path is followed by packets to a given BFER (or set of BFERs) with that entropy value. To enable this, the BitString TLVs would need to have an entropy value. The draft doesn't seem to have any provision for that. (And unless deterministic ECMP is used, I'm not sure this is a tractable problem at all.) For traceroute, I guess the request sent by the initiator would be carried unchanged until there's a TTL expiry. I think the request needs to carry the original BIER header (augmented with SI and sub-domain); this would be sent back in the response, along with the corresponding information that is in the BIER header when the request is received by the responder. This would tell you which BFERs from the original BitString are in the sub-tree of the responder. (The document does have a TLV for this.) The draft seems to be trying to have the mechanisms discover all possible ECMP paths that a packet might take, but I don't really see how that is going to work in a scalable manner. Also, I don't understand the proposed use of the "Multipath Entropy TLV". What value gets put in it, and under what circumstances? I don't really understand the Upstream Interface and Downstream Mapping TLVs. If these are supposed to identify BIER adjacencies, then they need to take account of the fact that a pair of adjacent BFRs might be separated by an IP or MPLS tunnel, rather than being directly connected. Or are these TLVs supposed to identify IGP adjacencies rather than BIER adjacencies? What exactly is the intended function of these TLVs, and will they fulfill that function when the adjacenct BFRs are not directly connected? With regard to traceroute, have you considered the impact of the "uniform model" for TTL handling (see RFC 3443)? It may not always be possible to ensure that the TTL in the BIER-MPLS label is decremented only by the number of BFR hops. In such a case, once a request has reached a particular BFR, the initiator might have to increment TTL several times to get a request to reach the next BFR hops. This is something that needs to be discussed in a specification of the traceroute procedures. It's also worth thinking about what would happen if a BIER OAM packet experiences TTL expiry while in the middle of a unicast tunnel. The request has a "sequence number" that is supposed to be used to detect missing responses. I don't see how that will work, since a single request in general elicits multiple responses. You wouldn't be able to use the sequence number to detect missing responses unless all responses to the request with that sequence number were missing. It might make sense though for the sequence number to be the same as the original TTL placed in the BIER-MPLS label by the initiator of the request. The return codes are not very well-defined, and it's not clear just what the principles are that led to choosing that particular set of return codes. It would be good to see some discussion of what information it is useful to return in various troubleshooting scenarios. From nobody Thu Mar 12 17:21:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30911A8876 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:21:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yv20JJP4ey0j for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49AEA1A8870 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:21:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8694; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426206065; x=1427415665; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=s3OVneRKNjJrKFsEL0H90zxHNKm2sPmHIZEHK87Yq9o=; b=kYcJQFUnZoXII9/NUGwGKGfnuwBlTbUBGB19Tzenf+L5uxmUOD1WFJND 10o2xBcdtrUelVqyJqfUMZnhIdRYNFzr4H1xocOkuSFk+Wa4DwkYl5oOS 09NO78wTWC5n0LdIXVBtcXjTf0kIAKbtyujLdmyVLdFjJDW4SHqs6Xs2+ o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CoBgAYLAJV/4YNJK1RBAaDBoEwwSqIJwKBMkwBAQEBAQF9hBABAQMBRyASBQ0BCC1LJQIEAQ0DiCkItyOWHwEBAQEBAQEDAQEBAQEBAQEBGYoYf4QVGRAzBwIIhCMFhEKGBIVeh2SBfYEagyiIWIZjI4NuQoExJBx/AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,391,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="131578752" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2015 00:21:04 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2D0L4ZF024332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Mar 2015 00:21:04 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.6.70]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 19:21:04 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Eric C Rosen , Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaAgAKhhkCAA+G9AIABsUIAgAHtWYA= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 00:21:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5500574E.9020502@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.8.130913 x-originating-ip: [10.118.20.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 00:21:10 -0000 Hi Eric, Thanks for the excellent comments. Please see below, >I have a few questions and comments. > >First, thanks for not calling it "bier-pong" ;-) LOL :). When I tried to locate the draft using =B3bier + ping=B2= in google, it pops a messages that an unusual search and asked me to confirm that I am human and not machine :) =20 > >Any TLV that has a BitString and an SI also has to have a sub-domain id, >or else the set of BFERs identified in the BitString cannot be >determined (nor can the BFIR). Yes, I agree. We will include sub-domain id in the TLVs. > >I don't understand why it makes sense to use the BIER data plane to >respond to a ping or traceroute. I'd think you'd want to avoid BIER in >the reverse direction, and use ICMP to send back the responses. We considered both. You are right that we don=B9t validate anything in the reverse direction and can be IP based reply. >This=20 >would mean that the request needs to have the IP address to which to >respond. (If you do use BIER for the responses, you'd certainly need to >know the sub-domain in which to interpret the BFIR, and you'd need to >know the sub-domain to choose the right BIER-MPLS label.) By including the sub-domain in the TLV, we can use the BFIR id to fetch the BFR-Prefi form IGP database. But I think, it will be more clean to have a TLV carrying the =B3Reply-to=B2 address which will more control to instruct what address to reply to. > >Overall, I agree with Tony that the draft would benefit from a lot more >attention to procedures -- the document really doesn't make clear just >how you put together the set of TLVs to actually do a traceroute (or >even a ping). Until it's clear just what information needs to be >carried forwards and back, there's no point in discussing TLV formats. Sure. We will detail the procedure in next revision. > >For the traceroute case, the draft also needs to address the issue of >how the initiator should collate the replies to figure out what path >actually gets followed by a given data packet. The current draft proposes TLVs to carry in Reply that includes - incoming interface, incoming BitString (in the header) and also downstream neighbors to which the reply was sent, along with egress BitString that will be sent to each downstream neighbor. IMHO, Initiator will be able to use these information (along with sender handler) to portrait end to end path. How it portrait the path would be a local matter, I think. We will include a point in the procedure and mention it as local matter.=20 Do you think something is missing from the Initiator point of view that needs to be clarified?. > >If a user says, "I'm getting spotty service when I try to receive a >given data stream", how would one use these mechanisms to troubleshoot? Ok. I think the procedure section (after updating) will be more generic. Do you think, it is reasonable to add an Appendix section to give a couple of such examples from usage point of view?. > >If you wanted to troubleshoot a problems with a particular user data >stream, I think you'd need to know the entropy value of the data packets >in the troublesome data stream. You'd want to specify the entropy and >find out what path is followed by packets to a given BFER (or set of >BFERs) with that entropy value. To enable this, the BitString TLVs >would need to have an entropy value. The draft doesn't seem to have any >provision for that. (And unless deterministic ECMP is used, I'm not >sure this is a tractable problem at all.) I think, we can achieve this in 2 ways. One option is to have the Initiator (assuming that is also acting as the ingress for the actual data stream) to use the same Entropy value (that will be used in the data traffic) in probe packet. By this, we don=B9t need to query each transit BFRs. The other option is to query each BFR along the path about entropy range for each ECMP path. This query does not need to carry any data stream details as the entropy query is not specific to stream instead the path that will be selected within a range. This is analogous to ECMP tree trace in MPLS LSP Ping. > >For traceroute, I guess the request sent by the initiator would be >carried unchanged until there's a TTL expiry. I think the request needs >to carry the original BIER header (augmented with SI and sub-domain); >this would be sent back in the response, along with the corresponding >information that is in the BIER header when the request is received by >the responder. This would tell you which BFERs from the original >BitString are in the sub-tree of the responder. (The document does have >a TLV for this.) Yes. > >The draft seems to be trying to have the mechanisms discover all >possible ECMP paths that a packet might take, but I don't really see how >that is going to work in a scalable manner. The primary intention is to have a way to perform ECMP query per BFER. To troubleshoot a failure to a specific BFER or set of BFERs should be possible by querying (and using) ECMP paths for one of the affected BFER and use the entropy. >Also, I don't understand >the proposed use of the "Multipath Entropy TLV". What value gets put in >it, and under what circumstances? This is similar to section 3.3.1 of RFC4379. To avoid redundant information, we tried referring to RFC4379 (noticed that section info is not given). Will it be helpful to have an example in Appendix?. > >I don't really understand the Upstream Interface and Downstream Mapping >TLVs.=20 Upstream Interface TLV is used by the responder to define the incoming interface of the probe packet. This is useful to detect any deviation in HW/distributed forwarding. Per BFR-A control-plane, Bit-id 10 is reachable via interface-A while the data plane have a stale entry pointing towards Interface-B. In this case, the reply from BFR-A will have downstream address which does not match with upstream interface TLV of next response.=20 > If these are supposed to identify BIER adjacencies, then they >need to take account of the fact that a pair of adjacent BFRs might be >separated by an IP or MPLS tunnel, rather than being directly connected. > Or are these TLVs supposed to identify IGP adjacencies rather than >BIER adjacencies? What exactly is the intended function of these TLVs, >and will they fulfill that function when the adjacenct BFRs are not >directly connected? Good point about the IP/MPLS tunnel :).The intention is to carry the BIER adjacency details. We will check this point and include in next revision.=20 =20 > >With regard to traceroute, have you considered the impact of the >"uniform model" for TTL handling (see RFC 3443)? It may not always be >possible to ensure that the TTL in the BIER-MPLS label is decremented >only by the number of BFR hops. In such a case, once a request has >reached a particular BFR, the initiator might have to increment TTL >several times to get a request to reach the next BFR hops. This is >something that needs to be discussed in a specification of the >traceroute procedures. It's also worth thinking about what would happen >if a BIER OAM packet experiences TTL expiry while in the middle of a >unicast tunnel. Yes, Right. This needs to be clarified in the document. We will include this in next revision. > >The request has a "sequence number" that is supposed to be used to >detect missing responses. I don't see how that will work, since a >single request in general elicits multiple responses. You wouldn't be >able to use the sequence number to detect missing responses unless all >responses to the request with that sequence number were missing. > >It might make sense though for the sequence number to be the same as the >original TTL placed in the BIER-MPLS label by the initiator of the >request. Thanks for the alternate suggestion. But I think it will suffer the same problem. I will discuss this with other authors and update accordingly. > >The return codes are not very well-defined, and it's not clear just what >the principles are that led to choosing that particular set of return >codes. It would be good to see some discussion of what information it >is useful to return in various troubleshooting scenarios. Sure. We will update with more details on the Return code. Once again, thanks for the wonderful comments. Regards, Nagendra From nobody Thu Mar 12 18:13:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44341AC3E6 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:13:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONUKv18_2dxI for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9914E1A891C for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:13:27 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79686d0000030a8-61-5501e49389d2 Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 13.57.12456.394E1055; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:10:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Thu, 12 Mar 2015 21:13:26 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , Eric C Rosen , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaAgAKhhkCAA+G9AIABoH8AgAIwbgD//8qg4A== Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 01:13:25 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826DA07@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <5500574E.9020502@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupkkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZXLonUHfKE8ZQg7UbGS2WztjDZPHp3Q4W i3UbPjBbXFgrbPF64lQ2iyfn3rFYnF1zh9WB3WPK742sHjtn3WX3aDnyltVjyZKfTB7Xm66y B7BGcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGWs+fOXueApe8XqxSeYGxg72boYOTkkBEwkVnfeY4ewxSQu3FsP FOfiEBI4wijRs3QpC4SznFHi6uV3TCBVbAIWEpe/PWUGSYgINDJKLD73ixXEYRZ4xijx9Ow8 oH4ODmEBR4l5m9JBGkQEnCTe75/JAmGHSdx4ewFsEIuAqsTnVd/AbF4Bb4nH2zcyg9hCAgES t668YwWxOQUMJA5MngQWZwQ67/upNWD1zALiEreezGeCOFtAYsme88wQtqjEy8f/WCFsJYlJ S8+xQtTrSdyYOoUNwtaWWLbwNTPEXkGJkzOfsExgFJuFZOwsJC2zkLTMQtKygJFlFSNHaXFq WW66kcEmRmDcHZNg093BuOel5SFGAQ5GJR7eDycYQoVYE8uKK3MPMUpzsCiJ8y56cDBESCA9 sSQ1OzW1ILUovqg0J7X4ECMTB6dUA+Pqt7oP2e8ps+YbytzZO01u0+afFra6n9KtZE/MEJcK NeusOb7ppVvVw8IfqSXue6+w9jjYJl7S+7zd9EV5w/aJdx5++35A7Kji0zlr/16Vi/F6e5// 7L9lkzsjNX5XfRb9M9VicnVQ38r77Sq3xNtL74gk+ndymgqqbDE+59RWeK7pdX2Ui6ISS3FG oqEWc1FxIgCreN3HnAIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 01:13:29 -0000 Uff, this is lots of enlightenment via email. Is it feasible we have someth= ing spun as 'inofficial' draft update before the IETF session and sent to t= his list so the interested parties read it up and we have a more solid base= to discuss from ...=20 > -----Original Message----- > Hi Eric, >=20 > Thanks for the excellent comments. Please see below, >=20 > >I have a few questions and comments. > > > >First, thanks for not calling it "bier-pong" ;-) >=20 > LOL :). When I tried to locate the draft using =B3bier + ping= =B2 in google, > it pops a messages that an unusual search and asked me to confirm that I = am > human and not machine :) >=20 > > ... =20 Yeah, the bier pong will be a classic, when Ice came out with the moniker w= e knew we're asking for all kind of puns of differing quality for the price= of having an easily branded acronym with lots of positive associations wit= hin the demographics that IETF attracts ...=20 --- tony From nobody Fri Mar 13 05:39:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AB41A0122 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 05:39:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2xRdYhMq-h0y for ; 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d="scan'208";a="403154437" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2015 12:39:26 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com [173.36.12.76]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2DCdQPU010836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:39:26 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.6.70]) by xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com ([173.36.12.76]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 07:39:26 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Antoni Przygienda , Eric C Rosen , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQWBHYhlFvVV6qd02hixb+cyfcIp0PheaAgAKhhkCAA+G9AIABsUIAgAHtWYCAAFG5gIAAfJyA Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:39:25 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1826DA07@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.8.130913 x-originating-ip: [10.118.20.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , Mach Chen , Nobo Akiya , "vero.zheng@huawei.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:39:28 -0000 SGkgVG9ueSwNCg0KT2suIEkgd2lsbCB0cnkgdG8gZ2V0IG9uZSBzaGFyZWQgd2l0aCB0aGUgZ3Jv dXAgYmVmb3JlIHRoZSBzZXNzaW9uLg0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQpOYWdlbmRyYQ0KDQpPbiAzLzEyLzE1 LCA5OjEzIFBNLCAiQW50b25pIFByenlnaWVuZGEiIDxhbnRvbmkucHJ6eWdpZW5kYUBlcmljc3Nv bi5jb20+DQp3cm90ZToNCg0KPlVmZiwgdGhpcyBpcyBsb3RzIG9mIGVubGlnaHRlbm1lbnQgdmlh IGVtYWlsLiBJcyBpdCBmZWFzaWJsZSB3ZSBoYXZlDQo+c29tZXRoaW5nIHNwdW4gYXMgJ2lub2Zm aWNpYWwnIGRyYWZ0IHVwZGF0ZSBiZWZvcmUgdGhlIElFVEYgc2Vzc2lvbiBhbmQNCj5zZW50IHRv IHRoaXMgbGlzdCBzbyB0aGUgaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBwYXJ0aWVzIHJlYWQgaXQgdXAgYW5kIHdlIGhh dmUgYSBtb3JlDQo+c29saWQgYmFzZSB0byBkaXNjdXNzIGZyb20gLi4uDQo+DQo+PiAtLS0tLU9y aWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPj4gSGkgRXJpYywNCj4+IA0KPj4gVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUg ZXhjZWxsZW50IGNvbW1lbnRzLiBQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGJlbG93LA0KPj4gDQo+PiA+SSBoYXZlIGEg ZmV3IHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhbmQgY29tbWVudHMuDQo+PiA+DQo+PiA+Rmlyc3QsIHRoYW5rcyBmb3Ig bm90IGNhbGxpbmcgaXQgImJpZXItcG9uZyIgOy0pDQo+PiANCj4+IDxOYWdlbmRyYT4gTE9MIDop LiBXaGVuIEkgdHJpZWQgdG8gbG9jYXRlIHRoZSBkcmFmdCB1c2luZyCp+GJpZXIgKyBwaW5nqfcN Cj4+aW4gZ29vZ2xlLA0KPj4gaXQgcG9wcyBhIG1lc3NhZ2VzIHRoYXQgYW4gdW51c3VhbCBzZWFy Y2ggYW5kIGFza2VkIG1lIHRvIGNvbmZpcm0gdGhhdA0KPj5JIGFtDQo+PiBodW1hbiBhbmQgbm90 IG1hY2hpbmUgOikNCj4+IA0KPj4gPiAuLi4gICANCj4NCj5ZZWFoLCB0aGUgYmllciBwb25nIHdp bGwgYmUgYSBjbGFzc2ljLCB3aGVuIEljZSBjYW1lIG91dCB3aXRoIHRoZSBtb25pa2VyDQo+d2Ug a25ldyB3ZSdyZSBhc2tpbmcgZm9yIGFsbCBraW5kIG9mIHB1bnMgb2YgZGlmZmVyaW5nIHF1YWxp dHkgZm9yIHRoZQ0KPnByaWNlIG9mIGhhdmluZyBhbiBlYXNpbHkgYnJhbmRlZCBhY3JvbnltIHdp dGggbG90cyBvZiBwb3NpdGl2ZQ0KPmFzc29jaWF0aW9ucyB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGRlbW9ncmFwaGlj cyB0aGF0IElFVEYgYXR0cmFjdHMgLi4uDQo+DQo+LS0tIHRvbnkNCj4NCg0K From nobody Fri Mar 13 12:46:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5D91A040B for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:46:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M-6FQneLw_I6 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0123.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACC8B1A1A03 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.32.30] (66.129.241.13) by DM2PR0501MB1101.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.245.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.106.15; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:46:20 +0000 Message-ID: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 15:46:15 -0400 From: Eric C Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BIER Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.13] X-ClientProxiedBy: BLUPR11CA0012.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (10.141.240.22) To DM2PR0501MB1101.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.245.11) Authentication-Results: juniper.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1101; X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: BMV:1; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(6049001)(65956001)(47776003)(65806001)(92566002)(450100001)(62966003)(77156002)(66066001)(87976001)(50986999)(54356999)(65816999)(99136001)(87266999)(46102003)(42186005)(229853001)(110136001)(40100003)(80316001)(50466002)(122386002)(86362001)(23676002)(77096005)(33656002)(83506001)(64126003)(36756003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1101; H:[172.29.32.30]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5002009)(5005006); SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1101; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1101; X-Forefront-PRVS: 05143A8241 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Mar 2015 19:46:20.0367 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0501MB1101 Archived-At: Cc: erosen@juniper.net Subject: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:46:25 -0000 Here's a small issue for the WG to consider. The mpls-bier-encapsulation draft specifies that the first nibble of the encapsulation is to be a BIER encaps version number, initially 0. The values 4 and 6 are excluded from the "version number" space, as there are various heuristic procedures deployed that interpret those values of the first nibble following the MPLS label stack as identifying the payload to be an IP packet. However, there are also various deployed heuristics that may interpret the values 0 and 1 as identifying a pseudowire payload, either data or OAM. This raises the issue of whether we might be better off setting this nibble to a fixed value, rather than trying to use it as a version number. If we really need a version number in the encaps, perhaps it should be someplace where it definitely won't impact any existing heuristics. The safest value for the first nibble might be one of the values 5-9, which are already assigned as IP Version Numbers, but are assigned to things that (I think) don't actually exist. From nobody Fri Mar 13 12:53:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD671A1B6D for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wdeFoAgPUheb for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3BFD1A1B2E for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:53:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1616; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426276416; x=1427486016; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:mime-version:to:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3ajASSLHKsWLiNzNFNPYVRBrAgk3qJqXiYvT59ke7vI=; b=JjJm1hLdL5uNViNgoDMPvt4jEHbuDXRlaXPoH8WBy/hZosjBzMqS1KBA HQH0Vb6dJXpJNkmZKfwR/2cd9J9iCE+Je7z6qHvApbe4iwNqIPNOsfAas WUviHW5jjFdoF83c6Ywh/WNG33r0wzY7Z1+NF5mrTqglDpzYsP3gFEepa g=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,396,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="379165399" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2015 19:53:35 +0000 Received: from [10.55.98.189] (ams-stbryant-88112.cisco.com [10.55.98.189]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2DJrYfJ021073; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:53:34 GMT Message-ID: <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:53:34 +0000 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric C Rosen , BIER References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:53:38 -0000 On 13/03/2015 19:46, Eric C Rosen wrote: > Here's a small issue for the WG to consider. > > The mpls-bier-encapsulation draft specifies that the first nibble of > the encapsulation is to be a BIER encaps version number, initially 0. > The values 4 and 6 are excluded from the "version number" space, as > there are various heuristic procedures deployed that interpret those > values of the first nibble following the MPLS label stack as > identifying the payload to be an IP packet. > > However, there are also various deployed heuristics that may interpret > the values 0 and 1 as identifying a pseudowire payload, either data or > OAM. > > This raises the issue of whether we might be better off setting this > nibble to a fixed value, rather than trying to use it as a version > number. If we really need a version number in the encaps, perhaps it > should be someplace where it definitely won't impact any existing > heuristics. The safest value for the first nibble might be one of > the values 5-9, which are already assigned as IP Version Numbers, but > are assigned to things that (I think) don't actually exist. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > I agree with Eric on this. I would set the nibble to zero which tells any parser that the payload is only understandable only by a node that knows the actions required by the BOS label. I think the ACH RFC says something like the above, but would have to go find the specific text. - Stewart From nobody Fri Mar 13 12:55:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB60F1A1B2E for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rCAVqmWQSn-y for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0136.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D0851A1B1E for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.32.30] (66.129.241.13) by BN3PR0501MB1090.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.113.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.112.19; Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:55:36 +0000 Message-ID: <550340B4.6030809@juniper.net> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 15:55:32 -0400 From: Eric C Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Toerless Eckert , References: <20150306181907.GX16454@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20150306181907.GX16454@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.13] X-ClientProxiedBy: BN3PR0401CA0008.namprd04.prod.outlook.com (25.162.159.146) To BN3PR0501MB1090.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.113.12) Authentication-Results: juniper.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1090; X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: BMV:1; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(6049001)(479174004)(24454002)(377454003)(65816999)(50986999)(87266999)(99136001)(42186005)(54356999)(76176999)(64126003)(66066001)(50466002)(92566002)(65956001)(87976001)(77156002)(62966003)(40100003)(77096005)(36756003)(122386002)(86362001)(230783001)(80316001)(47776003)(2950100001)(65806001)(33656002)(23746002)(46102003)(83506001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1090; H:[172.29.32.30]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5002009)(5005006); SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1090; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1090; X-Forefront-PRVS: 05143A8241 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Mar 2015 19:55:36.8041 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0501MB1090 Archived-At: Cc: erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] FYI: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:55:42 -0000 On 3/6/2015 1:19 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > I have posted a draft proposing on how one could do traffic engineering with > BIER (explicit hop-by-hop paths, FRR). The goal of course is to > stick to the principles of BIER. Tell me if I'm understanding the scheme correctly. It seems like what you are proposing is a way to encode the entire multicast tree in the BitString. One way to think of it is that the BFR-ids are not assigned to BFRs, but to pairs of BFRs. That is, a BFR-id represents a pair. The basic problem of course is that if each BFR has an average of n BFR neighbors, you need approximately n times the number of bits you need in the non-TE case. This is further compounded by the fact that each packet needs to hold the entire tree, so you can't really make use of the SI mechanism. I suppose you could break a tree into k sub-trees, make k copies of the packet, and then unicast each copy to the root of one sub-tree. However, mixing TE with IR in that way would be a bit unusual. Or you could use the sub-domain concept to assign each tree its own sub-domain, and then use bit positions that are unique only for that particular tree. But if you did that, the MPLS label would identify the tree, you could eliminate the BitString altogether, and it wouldn't be BIER any more. The draft does propose a number of optimizations that allow a given BFR-id (i.e., a given position in the BitString) to represent different BFR pairs in different contexts. The acceptability of the scheme is going to be a matter of whether one can apply enough of those optimizations to encode the entire tree in each packet, without creating any ambiguity in the interpretation of the bits. Question regarding the paragraph: All leaf-BFIR in a BIER-TE domain can share a single BitPosition. This is possible because the BitPosition for the adjacency to reach the BFIR can be used to distinguish whether or not packets should reach the BFIR. I think you actually mean "BFER" not "BFIR", but even so, I don't understand how this works. Doesn't the previous hop reset the "BitPosition for the adjacency to reach the BF[E]R"? So how does a particular Leaf-BFER know that the packet is for itself? I guess if a particular BFER is a Leaf-BFER for every traffic engineered tree to which it belongs, then it could assume that any BIER-TE packet it receives with an all-zero BitString is for itself. But is it realistic to suppose that a leaf on one tree is also a leaf on all the others? Or am I missing the point? From nobody Tue Mar 17 03:49:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE511A0263; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 03:49:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.422 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TojQWykVO_HJ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 03:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E65621A0235; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 03:49:27 -0700 (PDT) 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en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.99.17] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:49:30 -0000 SSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoaXMgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGFwcGxpY2FibGUgdG8gdGhlIE5TSCBhcyB3ZWxsIChp LmUuLCBzZXQgdGhlIG5pYmJsZSB0byB6ZXJvKSBpZiBpdCdzIGFzc3VtZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgTlNI IGNvdWxkIGJlIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRlZCB3aXRoaW4gYW4gTVBMUyBwYWNrZXQuIA0KDQpCZXN0IHJl Z2FyZHMsDQpYaWFvaHUNCg0KLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQq3orz+yMs6IEJJRVIgW21haWx0 bzpiaWVyLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddILT6se0gU3Rld2FydCBCcnlhbnQNCreiy83KsbzkOiAy 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Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:17:04 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Xuxiaohu , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric C Rosen , BIER Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZrqojq7Dn2dkqRctiyZ05xTp0aTR0AgAY0PqCAAAkpwA== Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:17:04 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.99.17] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:17:21 -0000 QW5vdGhlciB3YXkgaXMgdG8gYWRkIGEgcHJvdG9jb2wgaWRlbnRpZmllciBmaWVsZCBhZnRlciB0 aGUgYm90dG9tIG9mIHRoZSBsYWJlbCBzdGFjayAoaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1s L2RyYWZ0LXh1LW1wbHMtcGF5bG9hZC1wcm90b2NvbC1pZGVudGlmaWVyLTAwKS4gSW4gdGhpcyB3 YXksIHdlIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBib3RoZXJlZCBhYm91dCB0aGUgbmliYmxlIGlzc3VlIGFueW1v cmUgd2hlbiBwcm9wb3NpbmcgYW55IG5ldyBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIGhlYWRlciB3aGljaCBtYXkg YmUgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGVkIHdpdGhpbiBhbiBNUExTIHBhY2tldC4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0K WGlhb2h1DQoNCi0tLS0t08q8/tStvP4tLS0tLQ0Kt6K8/sjLOiBtcGxzIFttYWlsdG86bXBscy1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSC0+rHtIFh1eGlhb2h1DQq3osvNyrG85DogMjAxNcTqM9TCMTfI1SAx ODo0OQ0KytW8/sjLOiBzdGJyeWFudEBjaXNjby5jb207IEVyaWMgQyBSb3NlbjsgQklFUg0Ks63L zTogbXBsc0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQrW98ziOiBSZTogW21wbHNdIFtCaWVyXSBF 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cmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbXBscw0K From nobody Tue Mar 17 07:20:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D241A1A73 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:20:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T2RdnHMkemtO for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6734D1A1A7C for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibg7 with SMTP id g7so47686478wib.1 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:20:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=AipV+rwM1MfzcSCv3XFhlGZZuTwTw8Dzfy5901I9pbk=; b=0ZUtl0nZ9+IH8No2rMxttsZCVgx3USGKJsc0yUt0SOuwLanYcUcUKfwJ5W77ZDfl6g nYShUivysess4WVuDcANOuGjqycDYm93qyeCfayHnkEHKjLQECV1PKsQYVJE7aQOVQt3 EqO1B3E1NZOCcIi5yltAU0QKFQDxRzBWHNaP2oPEUE0p4M/jTEYC3jN2BvZTqX4f7d9x tJftDEkjGsdRljcBCjae9kGFxSCVuBM03CVM9BaUqA+Xq4mHr3k1ESjqJdVOiUaow610 tQnUV0XeZQHdZtmEyxojcEEomUcSVS35Oom/a/H5uImtSWxMzm+pmyCQyZCaXUHbHdc8 AJtg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.108.177 with SMTP id hl17mr172860955wib.35.1426602028145; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.101.98 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:20:28 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3ba43b1fa38205117cabfa Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:20:34 -0000 --e89a8f3ba43b1fa38205117cabfa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Please provide feedback on this ASAP. I'd like to upload this by the end of the day. Thanks! IETF 91, Dallas Texas BIER WG Agenda Wed, Mar 25, 2015 1300-1500 Venetian Welcome/congrats/Agenda bash Chairs 5 min Charter overview Chairs 5 min Hum for draft adoption Chairs 10 min draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-04 Rosen 20 min (ECMP, sub-domain, transition) MVPN explicit tracking draft-przygienda-bier-isis-ranges-02 Tony 10min draft-prz-bier-bfrid-assignment-00 Tony 10 min draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00 Toreless 15 min draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-02 Xuxiaohu 15 min draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-00 draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping Kumar 20 min Greg (Chairs) --e89a8f3ba43b1fa38205117cabfa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please provide feedback on this ASAP. I'd like to uplo= ad this by the end of the day.

Thanks!

IETF 9= 1, Dallas Texas

BIER WG Agenda=

Wed, Mar 25, 2= 015

1300-1500

Venetian


Welcome/congra= ts/Agenda bash =C2=A0 Chairs 5 min

Charter overvi= ew Chairs 5 min

Hum for draft = adoption Chairs 10 min

draft-wijnands= -bier-architecture-04 Ro= sen 20 min

(ECMP, sub-dom= ain, transition)

MVPN explicit = tracking

draft-przygien= da-bier-isis-ranges-02 = Tony 10min

draft-prz-bier= -bfrid-assignment-00 To= ny 10 min

draft-eckert-b= ier-te-arch-00 Toreles= s 15 min

draft-xu-bier-= encapsulation-02 Xuxiaohu 15 min

draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-00

draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping Kumar 20 min


Greg (Chairs)

--e89a8f3ba43b1fa38205117cabfa-- From nobody Tue Mar 17 07:52:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAA71A1B1C for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:52:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2P6YQGnTbmQI for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E68A51A1AFB for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:52:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2682; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426603967; x=1427813567; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GlaDPiYWF9JLCU/ci0Jahfgb0lgm8X7dWY6G35mx84Y=; b=N19kywdtFFzYai/paPRCjLh2oRYaiIo7+FZYOsQ6ief2HXjgvizNt++Q rnCn0DfWFR8lFWk1ETYT1hhSawJt/oXwEVZkHQat4e2nLax9CZCoXX6Wn S8XeBUArIirYfqkj42/2mCCPMFKJ9+beccbDrvUAHrwgAtMoy/U07zRq/ M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,416,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="401216721" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2015 14:52:46 +0000 Received: from [10.154.176.32] ([10.154.176.32]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2HEqjrQ008279 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:52:46 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:52:50 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <86AE4B6A-D0E4-4274-9227-E7E5A479785A@cisco.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> To: stbryant@cisco.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: BIER , Eric C Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:52:48 -0000 Hi Folks, Why don=E2=80=99t we reserve IP version value =E2=80=9915=E2=80=99 and = mark it as =E2=80=98Extended Version Type=E2=80=99. This value indicates = that the next nibble is the =E2=80=98Extended Version field', which = indicates the payload that is following. This would be a more generic = solution for other encapsulation that may be added in the future. For BIER MPLS encapsulation it means we would need to move the = =E2=80=98proto=E2=80=99 field. I think we could easily carve out a part = of the =E2=80=98reserved=E2=80=99 field at the bottom of the encoding = and move =E2=80=98proto=E2=80=99 into it. The =E2=80=98proto=E2=80=99 = field is only relevant after BIER processing is done, so there should = not be a performance impact I think. Thx, Ice. > On 13 Mar 2015, at 12:53, Stewart Bryant wrote: >=20 > On 13/03/2015 19:46, Eric C Rosen wrote: >> Here's a small issue for the WG to consider. >>=20 >> The mpls-bier-encapsulation draft specifies that the first nibble of = the encapsulation is to be a BIER encaps version number, initially 0. = The values 4 and 6 are excluded from the "version number" space, as = there are various heuristic procedures deployed that interpret those = values of the first nibble following the MPLS label stack as identifying = the payload to be an IP packet. >>=20 >> However, there are also various deployed heuristics that may = interpret the values 0 and 1 as identifying a pseudowire payload, either = data or OAM. >>=20 >> This raises the issue of whether we might be better off setting this = nibble to a fixed value, rather than trying to use it as a version = number. If we really need a version number in the encaps, perhaps it = should be someplace where it definitely won't impact any existing = heuristics. The safest value for the first nibble might be one of the = values 5-9, which are already assigned as IP Version Numbers, but are = assigned to things that (I think) don't actually exist. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>=20 >=20 > I agree with Eric on this. >=20 > I would set the nibble to zero which tells any parser that the payload = is only understandable only by a node that knows the actions required by = the BOS label. >=20 > I think the ACH RFC says something like the above, but would have to = go find the specific text. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Mar 17 09:30:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B32F1A1B4B for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:30:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6dBpdsSlESIM for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B56A61A8737 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibg7 with SMTP id g7so67822550wib.1 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:30:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=uW3ghE6e2OLh+OC21TfEBMW20RI6QNxDAoc0gwnk4Ok=; b=u5i//ezWLlo0HNT1Gx4MHNbuc3iLmxo+m1AKKXCdqaKIMifYTCh4mtj0JYuQtuGL50 EHgkufCJeisMLlVsgJ8ayKERXHErXdC1D6Ls2UlXOiTwrWca5iGPmhWViiNQqMowEhes wrFVNiPhkB8RxANW/QbbP6HlAjhSEltDYDqOVCtq0qjyCcLo0xOx89CUPo9UfKiZw21S y4o//llTeSiFs4SGfkF2JwPVuYdwomXhqlJtoeZhsgRrvh5of0ePzy8KrjLMCr/nzL31 4kqmmnVefumPdHmCkB+O5QAMKAJ7Zd5hE02AC5otvbAfcwjuo9UV1h6IrJdlSwL7l3Pv lkbQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.20.67 with SMTP id l3mr131335230wje.94.1426609811236; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.101.98 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:30:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:30:11 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d649a08302105117e7b1c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:30:19 -0000 --047d7b5d649a08302105117e7b1c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 What is not yet on the agenda are the Use-cases draft updates, the MPLS encap updates, and the OSPF draft updates If there's someone who will be in attendance who can cover one or more of these please speak up now and we'll make room. Thanks, Greg On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Please provide feedback on this ASAP. I'd like to upload this by the end > of the day. > > Thanks! > > IETF 91, Dallas Texas > > BIER WG Agenda > > Wed, Mar 25, 2015 > > 1300-1500 > > Venetian > > > Welcome/congrats/Agenda bash Chairs 5 min > > Charter overview Chairs 5 min > > Hum for draft adoption Chairs 10 min > > draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-04 Rosen 20 min > > (ECMP, sub-domain, transition) > > MVPN explicit tracking > > draft-przygienda-bier-isis-ranges-02 Tony 10min > > draft-prz-bier-bfrid-assignment-00 Tony 10 min > > draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00 Toreless 15 min > > draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-02 Xuxiaohu 15 min > > draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-00 > > draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping Kumar 20 min > > > Greg (Chairs) > --047d7b5d649a08302105117e7b1c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is not yet on the agenda are the Use-cases draft upda= tes, the MPLS encap updates, and the OSPF draft updates

= If there's someone who will be in attendance who can cover one or more = of these please speak up now and we'll make room.

<= div>Thanks,
Greg

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep= @gmail.com> wrote:
Please provide feedback on this ASAP. I'd like to upload this = by the end of the day.

Thanks!

=

IETF 91, Dalla= s Texas

BIER WG Agenda=

Wed, Mar 25, 2= 015

1300-1500

Venetian


Welcome/congra= ts/Agenda bash =C2=A0 Chairs 5 min

Charter overvi= ew Chairs 5 min

Hum for draft = adoption Chairs 10 min

draft-wijnands= -bier-architecture-04 Rosen 20 min

(ECMP, sub-dom= ain, transition)

MVPN explicit = tracking

draft-przygien= da-bier-isis-ranges-02 Tony 10min

draft-prz-bier= -bfrid-assignment-00 Tony 10 min

draft-eckert-b= ier-te-arch-00 Toreless 15 min

draft-xu-bier-= encapsulation-02 Xuxiaohu 15 min

draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-00

draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping Kumar 20 min

Greg (Ch= airs)


--047d7b5d649a08302105117e7b1c-- From nobody Tue Mar 17 09:33:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD9E1A875B for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:33:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LmDdATei56yp for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7F661A876A for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:33:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1472; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426609981; x=1427819581; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=5hkRkoXfPM2wa+0KjJzNs4XJY5hBD5+kL4SWo9zqEtk=; b=L2AUkhZ6gTluzbYyyfj1VzhoMGBRFXrXvRxqRMUds7lVu45FNEo5b6JO 3TVfkcSg19xVNXwImYFg+Qdpv7Cqg/PtoBSrUB/rVookd8bolgC06zfpB R1DvVn+uM4Thufz03DTQZRVX9tw75dP3SK6NbGyA9cm1XwNqwtg92jkl5 w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0B3BwCTVghV/4oNJK1bgwZSWrJsAQEBAgEFAXaSBwqFdQKBO0wBAQEBAQF9hA8BAQEDAQEBATc0CwULCxIGLiEGIg4ZiBsDCQgNxQENhTUBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIYKhQ2CRIF6MwcWgwGBFgWLBYMviieBTIEbgyyCNoZ7hiIjhA4eMYJDAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,417,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="132840825" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2015 16:33:00 +0000 Received: from [10.154.176.32] ([10.154.176.32]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2HGX0sa016505 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:33:00 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:33:05 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4C985982-6D85-4501-920B-BFCC300E9B8B@cisco.com> References: To: gjshep@gmail.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:33:12 -0000 Hi Greg, I can cover OSPF. Eric will take care of MPLS in his presentation slot. Thx, Ice. > On 17 Mar 2015, at 09:30, Greg Shepherd wrote: >=20 > What is not yet on the agenda are the Use-cases draft updates, the = MPLS encap updates, and the OSPF draft updates >=20 > If there's someone who will be in attendance who can cover one or more = of these please speak up now and we'll make room. >=20 > Thanks, > Greg >=20 > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:20 AM, Greg Shepherd = wrote: > Please provide feedback on this ASAP. I'd like to upload this by the = end of the day. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > IETF 91, Dallas Texas > BIER WG Agenda > Wed, Mar 25, 2015 > 1300-1500 > Venetian >=20 > Welcome/congrats/Agenda bash Chairs 5 min > Charter overview Chairs = 5 min > Hum for draft adoption Chairs = 10 min > draft-wijnands-bier-architecture-04 Rosen 20 min > (ECMP, sub-domain, transition) > MVPN explicit tracking > draft-przygienda-bier-isis-ranges-02 Tony 10min > draft-prz-bier-bfrid-assignment-00 Tony = 10 min > draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-00 Toreless = 15 min > draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-02 Xuxiaohu = 15 min > draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-00=09 > draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping Kumar 20 min >=20 > Greg (Chairs) >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Mar 17 10:11:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA541A87AF; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wua7SFxeSoVL; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0778.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:778]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AEC91A1B43; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.32.200] (66.129.241.13) by BY1PR0501MB1093.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.103.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.112.19; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:11:12 +0000 Message-ID: <55086028.1070004@juniper.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:11:04 -0400 From: Eric C Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Xuxiaohu , "stbryant@cisco.com" , BIER References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gbk"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.13] X-ClientProxiedBy: BLUPR07CA0053.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.255.223.166) To BY1PR0501MB1093.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.103.139) Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: BMV:1; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6049001)(6009001)(24454002)(377454003)(479174004)(46102003)(42186005)(86362001)(23696002)(117636001)(59896002)(93886004)(122386002)(92566002)(19580395003)(83506001)(77096005)(2950100001)(62966003)(77156002)(15975445007)(87976001)(65806001)(36756003)(54356999)(50986999)(50466002)(65956001)(65816999)(40100003)(76176999)(87266999)(2501003)(66066001)(47776003)(64126003)(62816006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; H:[172.29.32.200]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5002010)(5005006); SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; X-Forefront-PRVS: 0518EEFB48 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Mar 2015 17:11:12.6020 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0501MB1093 Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:11:33 -0000 On 3/17/2015 7:17 AM, Xuxiaohu wrote: > Another way is to add a protocol identifier field after the bottom of > the label stack > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-mpls-payload-protocol-identifier-00). > In this way, we would not be bothered about the nibble issue anymore > when proposing any new encapsulation header which may be encapsulated > within an MPLS packet. When a BIER packet is traveling from BFIR to BFER via a sequence of directly connected BFRs, each BFR already knows, via the bottom label, that the packet is a BIER packet. The nibble issue really only matters when a BIER packet is traveling through a non-BIER tunnel. When a BIER packet is traveling through a non-BIER tunnel, some of the transit routers may be routers that are running older software. They will base their ECMP treatment of the packet on the first nibble. A protocol identifier field won't help, because these old routers won't understand it. For newer routers, I think the proper direction is to use the MPLS entropy label, rather than to have each router compute the entropy based on an analysis of the next encapsulation header. So I don't think BIER justifies the use of a new MPLS special purpose payload-protocol-identifier label. There is one case though in which it could potentially be useful to enable the transit routers of a unicast MPLS tunnel to determine that a particular packet has a BIER payload. Suppose thtat the MPLS TTL of the unicast tunnel expires while the packet is still in the tunnel. It might be useful for the transit router to generate an ICMP response to the TTL expiration, and for this ICMP response to be BIER-aware. However, this is only likely to happen in a traceroute-like application, and I don't think that is sufficient justification for having all BIER packets carry the two or three extra label stack entries it would take to provide the special purpose payload-protocol-identifier label. On the other hand, a nibble value specific to BIER might be useful, as it provides the same information without requiring additional overhead. From nobody Tue Mar 17 10:15:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902491A87B1; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:15:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AJxE2RlsQV0N; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 094BA1A87AF; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:15:37 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f790b6d000004359-2e-5507ffaa13a8 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AE.2E.17241.AAFF7055; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:19:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:15:31 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Xuxiaohu , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric C Rosen , BIER Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZr1RiePFKtRU2KrQ7DzVhUo50bFkcAgAWxRoCAAAe/AIAAHlkA Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:15:31 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuO6q/+yhBtdPKFgsnbGHyWLdhg/M FreWrmS1ePJgK7vFuadzGC22nl/F6MDmMeX3RlaPliNvWT2WLPnJ5HG96Sp7AEsUl01Kak5m WWqRvl0CV8aOlZtZCzazVZzu2cvawNjB2sXIySEhYCKx5dxBJghbTOLCvfVsXYxcHEICRxgl Li2fzArhLGeUOHv/KVgVm4CFxOVvT5lBEiICHYwSSxZsAhvFLOAk0bD8MiOILSygJ3F+y2M2 EFtEQF9i+flrQDUcQLabxMmXASBhFgFVidkXn4O18gp4S5y8eY8FxBYSuM8o8e2NCojNKRAm cW3KPbC9jEDXfT+1hglilbjErSfzoa4WkFiy5zwzhC0q8fLxP6jPFCX29U9nh6jXkViw+xMb hK0tsWzha2aIvYISJ2c+YZnAKDYLydhZSFpmIWmZhaRlASPLKkaO0uLUstx0I8NNjMAYOybB 5riDccEny0OMAhyMSjy8BhrsoUKsiWXFlbmHGKU5WJTEecuuHAwREkhPLEnNTk0tSC2KLyrN SS0+xMjEwSnVwNh+/u+dSJcnBqp7Ug1Pp+zsV2tPyxZjYNm+c1nir5llJ331NJL6mbcyvYlp 22VuPX9u4obZJbqG4X45tqzPnZOMa1hz0n5dzPk7Vfl8gLHtnidMc986hCqLZTEfEBA4N0Xi 27Zl+bpJLOuPbEkKjj/U9Hpiy80T9/R6m+IPved0LO3blPSnXYmlOCPRUIu5qDgRAEt35GqS AgAA Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:15:39 -0000 Not being much of an encapsulation, data plane guy myself, I wonder a tad h= ow hacky those 'heuristics' are. Last label indicates clearly a BIER heade= r is following. For the LSRs that do not support BIER and do not parse the = BIER encaps there is no reason to look 'behind the label'. Multiple sub-do= mains allow for clean separation of traffic with different properties if ne= eded and with that there is even less reason for some kind of 'heuristic' D= PI Now, given some 'heuristics' are in place no matter what value we put into = the nibble, sooner or later we'll collide with it no matter what value we p= ick since such 'heuristics' basically try to parse bits without understandi= ng their context and with that can easily mistake an 'eye' for an 'I' or an= 'aye'.=20 --- tony=20 From nobody Tue Mar 17 10:36:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663C11A87EF; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCuCcA_5rJ5L; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0777.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:777]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA21F1A87EB; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.38.16) by DM2PR0501MB1104.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.245.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.106.15; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:35:41 +0000 Received: from BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.8.136]) by BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.8.136]) with mapi id 15.01.0106.007; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:35:40 +0000 From: "Zhaohui (Jeffrey) Zhang" To: Antoni Przygienda , Xuxiaohu , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric Rosen , BIER Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZsT/NTuReqcUafEPAn7P7Hmp0a0zkAgAWxRoCAAAe/AIAAZCaAgAABcAA= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:35:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.10] authentication-results: ericsson.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1104; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-forefront-antispam-report: BMV:1; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(377454003)(51704005)(13464003)(102836002)(122556002)(2950100001)(106116001)(2900100001)(99286002)(76576001)(62966003)(15975445007)(77156002)(93886004)(86362001)(40100003)(66066001)(92566002)(54356999)(76176999)(46102003)(33656002)(19580395003)(19580405001)(2656002)(74316001)(50986999)(2501003)(87936001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1104; H:BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5005006)(5002010); SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1104; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1104; x-forefront-prvs: 0518EEFB48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Mar 2015 17:35:40.1862 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0501MB1104 Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:36:00 -0000 Today those "heuristics" are typically used in very specific deployments wh= ere an operator knows well what kind of traffic is going through their MPLS= infrastructure. As Eric mentioned in the other message, a nibble value specific to BIER mig= ht be useful for other purpose than ECMP entropy, and if such a value is st= andardized (like value 0 and 1 that are reserved for PWs), then it helps re= duce the clashing with random/hacky heuristics usages. Jeffrey > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Antoni Przygienda > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 1:16 PM > To: Xuxiaohu; stbryant@cisco.com; Eric Rosen; BIER > Cc: mpls@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble >=20 > Not being much of an encapsulation, data plane guy myself, I wonder a tad > how hacky those 'heuristics' are. Last label indicates clearly a BIER > header is following. For the LSRs that do not support BIER and do not > parse the BIER encaps there is no reason to look 'behind the label'. > Multiple sub-domains allow for clean separation of traffic with different > properties if needed and with that there is even less reason for some kin= d > of 'heuristic' DPI >=20 > Now, given some 'heuristics' are in place no matter what value we put int= o > the nibble, sooner or later we'll collide with it no matter what value we > pick since such 'heuristics' basically try to parse bits without > understanding their context and with that can easily mistake an 'eye' for > an 'I' or an 'aye'. >=20 > --- tony >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Mar 17 10:38:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDCF1A882A; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dEd_kA3DMJZt; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2456D1A87F2; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:38:30 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f790b6d000004359-b8-5508050a07d4 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C7.BF.17241.A0508055; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:42:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:38:28 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Zhaohui (Jeffrey) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric Rosen , BIER Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZr1RiePFKtRU2KrQ7DzVhUo50bFkcAgAWxRoCAAAe/AIAAHlkAgABLbgD//7070A== Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:38:28 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D438@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmphkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZXLonXJeblSPUYN90foulM/YwWazb8IHZ 4tbSlawWTx5sZbc493QOo8XW86sYLY5cbGRxYPeY8nsjq0fLkbesHkuW/GTyuN50lT2AJYrL JiU1J7MstUjfLoErY/vTA6wFm9kr7s7YydjA+J+1i5GTQ0LAROLn34NsELaYxIV764FsLg4h gSOMEkfnXYFyljNKTF5wgxGkik3AQuLyt6fMIAkRgR2MEu/PrmUHSTALOEk0LL8MViQsoCdx fstjsLEiAvoSy89fY4WwwyS+XrwIVMPBwSKgKtGwSwMkzCvgLfFr7jSoZZ+YJK5dO8kGUsMp EC3RcjYSpIYR6Lrvp9YwQawSl7j1ZD4TxNUCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+B/WZosS+/ulQp+lILNj9 iQ3C1pZYtvA1M8ReQYmTM5+wTGAUm4Vk7CwkLbOQtMxC0rKAkWUVI0dpcWpZbrqR4SZGYLQd k2Bz3MG44JPlIUYBDkYlHl4DDfZQIdbEsuLK3EOM0hwsSuK8ZVcOhggJpCeWpGanphakFsUX leakFh9iZOLglGpgDDRSPb1iX/nu+mC+fQqbPFN0OTkClDRnSlyw51u3TbDirprP1yentrJN 2uo36ZNg0jHmDF5zhrX/u84J1Yc/il57s3cHq8cKTm4+w9RDzmdfuxedTI5ktg1NNtUwr3t3 PPWI5p1J3LcjpVh82c8vla48uefrRbMLr14I3J63cukBTzde6YZPSizFGYmGWsxFxYkAJF0u ppcCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:38:32 -0000 Ok, point taken (as are the ECMP/ICMP things that Eric mentioned). I'll wat= ch from the bleachers the data plane fireworks then ;-)=20 --- tony=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Zhaohui (Jeffrey) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 10:36 AM > To: Antoni Przygienda; Xuxiaohu; stbryant@cisco.com; Eric Rosen; BIER > Cc: mpls@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble >=20 > Today those "heuristics" are typically used in very specific deployments = where an > operator knows well what kind of traffic is going through their MPLS > infrastructure. >=20 > As Eric mentioned in the other message, a nibble value specific to BIER m= ight be > useful for other purpose than ECMP entropy, and if such a value is standa= rdized > (like value 0 and 1 that are reserved for PWs), then it helps reduce the = clashing > with random/hacky heuristics usages. >=20 From nobody Tue Mar 17 14:44:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DD11A8903; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.422 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UHvIYe9W9ZZ1; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487541A1B6B; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BTT69516; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:44:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:44:09 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.209]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 05:44:04 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Eric C Rosen , "stbryant@cisco.com" , BIER Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZrqojq7Dn2dkqRctiyZ05xTp0aTR0AgAY0PqCAAAkpwP//3oUAgADIuWA= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:44:03 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCD2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <55086028.1070004@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <55086028.1070004@juniper.net> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.74.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:44:15 -0000 SGkgRXJpYywNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGEgbG90IGZvciB5b3VyIHJlc3BvbnNlLiBQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIG15 IHJlc3BvbnNlIGlubGluZS4NCg0KPiAtLS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCj4gt6K8/sjLOiBFcmlj IEMgUm9zZW4gW21haWx0bzplcm9zZW5AanVuaXBlci5uZXRdDQo+ILeiy83KsbzkOiAyMDE1xOoz 1MIxOMjVIDE6MTENCj4gytW8/sjLOiBYdXhpYW9odTsgc3RicnlhbnRAY2lzY28uY29tOyBCSUVS 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2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DAD81A8913; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:51:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.078 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mnzciB377abU; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 502661A890F; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BQI95861; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:51:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:51:29 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.209]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 05:51:22 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "Zhaohui (Jeffrey) Zhang" , Antoni Przygienda , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric Rosen , BIER Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZrqojq7Dn2dkqRctiyZ05xTp0aTR0AgAY0PqCAAAkpwP//38SAgAAFoQCAAM2HIA== Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:51:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.74.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: [Bier] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gZmlyc3QgbmliYmxl?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:51:34 -0000 SGkgSmVmZnJleSwNCg0KPiAtLS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCj4gt6K8/sjLOiBaaGFvaHVpIChK 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83DC11A891A for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BQI96438; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:07:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.37) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:07:09 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.209]) by nkgeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 06:07:03 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: IJsbrand Wijnands , "stbryant@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZrqojq7Dn2dkqRctiyZ05xTp0aTR0AgAX1TQCAAP0oMA== Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:07:03 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CD26@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <86AE4B6A-D0E4-4274-9227-E7E5A479785A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <86AE4B6A-D0E4-4274-9227-E7E5A479785A@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.74.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: BIER , Eric C Rosen Subject: [Bier] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgRW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBmaXJzdCBuaWJibGU=?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:07:17 -0000 SGkgSWNlLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCj4g5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBCSUVSIFtt YWlsdG86Ymllci1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSDku6PooaggSUpzYnJhbmQgV2lqbmFuZHMNCj4g 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ZXdhcnQNCj4gPg0KPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fDQo+ID4gQklFUiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPiBCSUVSQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0 cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iaWVyDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBCSUVSIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KPiBCSUVSQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vYmllcg0K From nobody Tue Mar 17 15:17:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E811E1A892E for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:17:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bNrYo0k0JctW for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99C4A1A892B for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BQI96880; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:17:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:17:16 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.209]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 06:17:06 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Xuxiaohu , IJsbrand Wijnands , "stbryant@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZrqojq7Dn2dkqRctiyZ05xTp0aTR0AgAX1TQCAAP0oMIAABeYA Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:17:05 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CD4A@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <86AE4B6A-D0E4-4274-9227-E7E5A479785A@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.74.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: BIER , Eric C Rosen Subject: [Bier] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgRW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBmaXJzdCBuaWJibGU=?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:17:21 -0000 DQoNCj4gLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0KPiDlj5Hku7bkuro6IFh1eGlhb2h1DQo+IOWP kemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxNeW5tDPmnIgxOOaXpSA2OjExDQo+IOaUtuS7tuS6ujogJ0lKc2JyYW5k IFdpam5hbmRzJzsgc3RicnlhbnRAY2lzY28uY29tDQo+IOaKhOmAgTogQklFUjsgRXJpYyBDIFJv c2VuDQo+IOS4u+mimDog562U5aSNOiBbQmllcl0gRW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBmaXJzdCBuaWJibGUN Cj4gDQo+IEhpIEljZSwNCj4gDQo+ID4gLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0KPiA+IOWPkeS7 tuS6ujogQklFUiBbbWFpbHRvOmJpZXItYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj6KGoIElKc2JyYW5k IFdpam5hbmRzDQo+ID4g5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE15bm0M+aciDE35pelIDIyOjUzDQo+ID4g 5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBzdGJyeWFudEBjaXNjby5jb20NCj4gPiDmioTpgIE6IEJJRVI7IEVyaWMgQyBS b3Nlbg0KPiA+IOS4u+mimDogUmU6IFtCaWVyXSBFbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIGZpcnN0IG5pYmJsZQ0K PiA+DQo+ID4gSGkgRm9sa3MsDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBXaHkgZG9u4oCZdCB3ZSByZXNlcnZlIElQIHZl cnNpb24gdmFsdWUg4oCZMTXigJkgYW5kIG1hcmsgaXQgYXMg4oCYRXh0ZW5kZWQNCj4gPiBWZXJz aW9uIFR5cGXigJkuIFRoaXMgdmFsdWUgaW5kaWNhdGVzIHRoYXQgdGhlIG5leHQgbmliYmxlIGlz 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PiA+IEJJRVJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vYmllcg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiBCSUVSIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+IEJJRVJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2JpZXINCg== From nobody Tue Mar 17 16:11:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421A21A1B99 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:11:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6nMVfGQAEqy7 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FB041A1B95 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:11:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3898; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426633909; x=1427843509; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=b4JMPRzYbymFlwckBdOd2mI/LKb2MQWInN8lIo91scw=; b=J4qTCrrjIXqr/z5sHpShreUyvk7UTuHsdgEjr1Wpg8oIwopKiCpVAg4B bpVdJNYV2nsgvKOBX0aZwkbAVyaQw2p/IUskjUHI8en9eBM7/2gdVM4/a Lc1IbXRCTTrc4yoj/myCU/5WK1xQUkeuebApFkAN7tl+4cA8A6GAF7QbE M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,418,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="404485669" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2015 23:11:49 +0000 Received: from [10.154.209.29] ([10.154.209.29]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2HNBmih016038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Mar 2015 23:11:48 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CD26@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:11:52 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <86AE4B6A-D0E4-4274-9227-E7E5A479785A@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CD26@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Xuxiaohu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: BIER , Eric C Rosen , "stbryant@cisco.com" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 23:11:51 -0000 Hi Xiaohu, >> Why don=E2=80=99t we reserve IP version value =E2=80=9915=E2=80=99 = and mark it as =E2=80=98Extended Version >> Type=E2=80=99. This value indicates that the next nibble is the = =E2=80=98Extended Version field', >> which indicates the payload that is following. This would be a more = generic >> solution for other encapsulation that may be added in the future. >=20 > The above proposal reminds me of the ESP concept:) I would like to avoid having to process two extra labels before knowing = how to forward the packet ;-) (There are two labels for ESP, and one for BIER). Since the BIER label will indicate what follows is a BIER header, there = is no need to parse the Extended Version. So there is a significant = difference with ESP. I would like to allow a sniffer to be able to parse a BIER packet. = Eric=E2=80=99s proposal would also work for that if we assign a value = between 5 and 9 to BIER.=20 Thx, Ice. >=20 > Now the question is: should we leave the MPLS payload type indication = work to the MPLS or each new MPLS payload type? >=20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu >=20 >> For BIER MPLS encapsulation it means we would need to move the = =E2=80=98proto=E2=80=99 >> field. I think we could easily carve out a part of the =E2=80=98reserve= d=E2=80=99 field at the >> bottom of the encoding and move =E2=80=98proto=E2=80=99 into it. The = =E2=80=98proto=E2=80=99 field is only >> relevant after BIER processing is done, so there should not be a = performance >> impact I think. >=20 > If I understand it correctly, the original "protocol" field in the = MPLS-BIER header is used to indicate the payload of the BIER packet () >=20 >> Thx, >>=20 >> Ice. >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 13 Mar 2015, at 12:53, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 13/03/2015 19:46, Eric C Rosen wrote: >>>> Here's a small issue for the WG to consider. >>>>=20 >>>> The mpls-bier-encapsulation draft specifies that the first nibble = of the >> encapsulation is to be a BIER encaps version number, initially 0. = The values 4 >> and 6 are excluded from the "version number" space, as there are = various >> heuristic procedures deployed that interpret those values of the = first nibble >> following the MPLS label stack as identifying the payload to be an IP = packet. >>>>=20 >>>> However, there are also various deployed heuristics that may = interpret the >> values 0 and 1 as identifying a pseudowire payload, either data or = OAM. >>>>=20 >>>> This raises the issue of whether we might be better off setting = this nibble to >> a fixed value, rather than trying to use it as a version number. If = we really >> need a version number in the encaps, perhaps it should be someplace = where it >> definitely won't impact any existing heuristics. The safest value = for the first >> nibble might be one of the values 5-9, which are already assigned as = IP Version >> Numbers, but are assigned to things that (I think) don't actually = exist. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BIER mailing list >>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I agree with Eric on this. >>>=20 >>> I would set the nibble to zero which tells any parser that the = payload is only >> understandable only by a node that knows the actions required by the = BOS >> label. >>>=20 >>> I think the ACH RFC says something like the above, but would have to = go find >> the specific text. >>>=20 >>> - Stewart >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Mar 18 06:52:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96EA1A01EC; 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Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:52:30 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Xuxiaohu , Antoni Przygienda , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric Rosen , BIER , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZsT/NTuReqcUafEPAn7P7Hmp0a0zkAgAWxRoCAAAe/AIAAZCaAgAABcACAAEuhgIABB5lw Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:52:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.10] authentication-results: huawei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1098; x-forefront-antispam-report: BMV:1; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(51704005)(33656002)(122556002)(40100003)(2501003)(106116001)(99286002)(92566002)(77156002)(62966003)(76576001)(102836002)(93886004)(2950100001)(74316001)(66066001)(76176999)(50986999)(54356999)(2656002)(87936001)(46102003)(86362001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1098; H:BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5002010)(5005006); SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1098; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1098; x-forefront-prvs: 051900244E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Mar 2015 13:52:30.2639 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0501MB1098 Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:52:51 -0000 Xiaohu, > Following such logic (i.e., assign a nibble value specific to the new > encapsulation header), we would have to consider how many available nibbl= e > values are there which can be used for future encapsulation headers in th= e > same way. There are still quite a few values left; defining a new encapsulation is no= t lightly taken; adding a new IP version is not lightly taken either. Besid= es, there is this "reserved value 15" idea from Ice. Coupled with the reasons that Eric gave: > I think the proper direction is to use the MPLS entropy label, rather tha= n to > have each router compute the entropy based on an analysis of the next > encapsulation header. >=20 > So I don't think BIER justifies the use of a new MPLS special purpose > payload-protocol-identifier label. I would think the encap-specific nibble is quite reasonable, and better tha= n a special purpose label. Jeffrey From nobody Wed Mar 18 07:20:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C691A03E3; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.422 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id odteG29gNIjm; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3B251A03FF; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BTU56820; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:20:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:20:15 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.209]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 22:20:11 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Antoni Przygienda , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric Rosen , BIER , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZrqojq7Dn2dkqRctiyZ05xTp0aTR0AgAY0PqCAAAkpwP//38SAgAAFoQCAAM2HIIAAhnQAgACMeVA= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:20:10 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CEFD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.117.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:20:23 -0000 SGkgSmVmZnJleSwNCg0KPiAtLS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCj4gt6K8/sjLOiBKZWZmcmV5ICha aGFvaHVpKSBaaGFuZyBbbWFpbHRvOnp6aGFuZ0BqdW5pcGVyLm5ldF0NCj4gt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIw MTXE6jPUwjE4yNUgMjE6NTMNCj4gytW8/sjLOiBYdXhpYW9odTsgQW50b25pIFByenlnaWVuZGE7 IHN0YnJ5YW50QGNpc2NvLmNvbTsgRXJpYyBSb3NlbjsgQklFUjsNCj4gSUpzYnJhbmQgV2lqbmFu ZHMNCj4gs63LzTogbXBsc0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+INb3zOI6IFJFOiBbQmll cl0gRW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBmaXJzdCBuaWJibGUNCj4gDQo+IFhpYW9odSwNCj4gDQo+ID4gRm9s bG93aW5nIHN1Y2ggbG9naWMgKGkuZS4sIGFzc2lnbiBhIG5pYmJsZSB2YWx1ZSBzcGVjaWZpYyB0 byB0aGUgbmV3DQo+ID4gZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBoZWFkZXIpLCB3ZSB3b3VsZCBoYXZlIHRvIGNv bnNpZGVyIGhvdyBtYW55IGF2YWlsYWJsZQ0KPiA+IG5pYmJsZSB2YWx1ZXMgYXJlIHRoZXJlIHdo aWNoIGNhbiBiZSB1c2VkIGZvciBmdXR1cmUgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbg0KPiA+IGhlYWRlcnMgaW4g dGhlIHNhbWUgd2F5Lg0KPiANCj4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIHN0aWxsIHF1aXRlIGEgZmV3IHZhbHVlcyBs ZWZ0OyBkZWZpbmluZyBhIG5ldyBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBsaWdodGx5DQo+IHRha2Vu OyBhZGRpbmcgYSBuZXcgSVAgdmVyc2lvbiBpcyBub3QgbGlnaHRseSB0YWtlbiBlaXRoZXIuIEJl c2lkZXMsIHRoZXJlIGlzIHRoaXMNCj4gInJlc2VydmVkIHZhbHVlIDE1IiBpZGVhIGZyb20gSWNl Lg0KDQpTaW5jZSB0aGUgY29udHJvbCB3b3JkIGlzIG9wdGlvbmFsIHdoZW4gdHJhbnNwb3J0aW5n IEV0aGVybmV0IG92ZXIgTVBMUywgSSB3b25kZXIgd2hldGhlciB0aGUgaWRlYSBvZiByZXNlcnZp bmcgdGhlIGZpcnN0IG5pYmJsZSB2YWx1ZSBvZiAxNSBpcyBmZWFzaWJsZSBpbiBwcmFjdGljZS4N Cg0KPiBDb3VwbGVkIHdpdGggdGhlIHJlYXNvbnMgdGhhdCBFcmljIGdhdmU6DQo+IA0KPiA+IEkg dGhpbmsgdGhlIHByb3BlciBkaXJlY3Rpb24gaXMgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBNUExTIGVudHJvcHkgbGFi ZWwsIHJhdGhlcg0KPiA+IHRoYW4gdG8gaGF2ZSBlYWNoIHJvdXRlciBjb21wdXRlIHRoZSBlbnRy b3B5IGJhc2VkIG9uIGFuIGFuYWx5c2lzIG9mDQo+ID4gdGhlIG5leHQgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBo ZWFkZXIuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBTbyBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIEJJRVIganVzdGlmaWVzIHRoZSB1c2Ug b2YgYSBuZXcgTVBMUyBzcGVjaWFsIHB1cnBvc2UNCj4gPiBwYXlsb2FkLXByb3RvY29sLWlkZW50 aWZpZXIgbGFiZWwuDQo+IA0KPiBJIHdvdWxkIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBlbmNhcC1zcGVjaWZpYyBuaWJi bGUgaXMgcXVpdGUgcmVhc29uYWJsZSwgYW5kIGJldHRlciB0aGFuIGENCj4gc3BlY2lhbCBwdXJw b3NlIGxhYmVsLg0KDQpEdWUgdG8gdGhlIHNhbWUgcmVhc29uIGFzIG1lbnRpb25lZCBhYm92ZSwg SSB3b25kZXIgd2hldGhlciBpdCdzIGZlYXNpYmxlIHRvIHJlc2VydmUgYSBjZXJ0YWluIGZpcnN0 IG5pYmJsZSB2YWx1ZSBhcyBhbiBlbmNhcC1zcGVjaWZpYyBuaWJibGUgaW4gcHJhY3RpY2UuDQoN CkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNClhpYW9odQ0KDQo+IEplZmZyZXkNCg== From nobody Wed Mar 18 07:57:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3131A1A13; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:56:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.078 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6-J3sUcMaLw; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8201A1A1A0B; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BQJ83520; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:56:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:56:52 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.209]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 22:56:40 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Xuxiaohu , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Antoni Przygienda , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric Rosen , BIER , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQXcZrqojq7Dn2dkqRctiyZ05xTp0aTR0AgAY0PqCAAAkpwP//38SAgAAFoQCAAM2HIIAAhnQAgACMeVCAAAkmcA== Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:56:39 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CF22@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CEFD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CEFD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.117.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: [Bier] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gZmlyc3QgbmliYmxl?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:56:59 -0000 DQoNCj4gLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQo+ILeivP7IyzogbXBscyBbbWFpbHRvOm1wbHMtYm91 bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gtPqx7SBYdXhpYW9odQ0KPiC3osvNyrG85DogMjAxNcTqM9TCMTjI1SAy MjoyMA0KPiDK1bz+yMs6IEplZmZyZXkgKFpoYW9odWkpIFpoYW5nOyBBbnRvbmkgUHJ6eWdpZW5k YTsgc3RicnlhbnRAY2lzY28uY29tOyBFcmljDQo+IFJvc2VuOyBCSUVSOyBJSnNicmFuZCBXaWpu YW5kcw0KPiCzrcvNOiBtcGxzQGlldGYub3JnOyBzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g1vfM4jogUmU6IFtt cGxzXSBbQmllcl0gRW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBmaXJzdCBuaWJibGUNCj4gDQo+IEhpIEplZmZyZXks DQo+IA0KPiA+IC0tLS0t08q8/tStvP4tLS0tLQ0KPiA+ILeivP7IyzogSmVmZnJleSAoWmhhb2h1 aSkgWmhhbmcgW21haWx0bzp6emhhbmdAanVuaXBlci5uZXRdDQo+ID4gt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTXE 6jPUwjE4yNUgMjE6NTMNCj4gPiDK1bz+yMs6IFh1eGlhb2h1OyBBbnRvbmkgUHJ6eWdpZW5kYTsg c3RicnlhbnRAY2lzY28uY29tOyBFcmljIFJvc2VuOw0KPiA+IEJJRVI7IElKc2JyYW5kIFdpam5h bmRzDQo+ID4gs63LzTogbXBsc0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4g1vfM4jogUkU6 IFtCaWVyXSBFbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIGZpcnN0IG5pYmJsZQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4gWGlhb2h1LA0KPiA+ DQo+ID4gPiBGb2xsb3dpbmcgc3VjaCBsb2dpYyAoaS5lLiwgYXNzaWduIGEgbmliYmxlIHZhbHVl IHNwZWNpZmljIHRvIHRoZQ0KPiA+ID4gbmV3IGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gaGVhZGVyKSwgd2Ugd291 bGQgaGF2ZSB0byBjb25zaWRlciBob3cgbWFueQ0KPiA+ID4gYXZhaWxhYmxlIG5pYmJsZSB2YWx1 ZXMgYXJlIHRoZXJlIHdoaWNoIGNhbiBiZSB1c2VkIGZvciBmdXR1cmUNCj4gPiA+IGVuY2Fwc3Vs YXRpb24gaGVhZGVycyBpbiB0aGUgc2FtZSB3YXkuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgc3RpbGwg cXVpdGUgYSBmZXcgdmFsdWVzIGxlZnQ7IGRlZmluaW5nIGEgbmV3IGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24NCj4g PiBpcyBub3QgbGlnaHRseSB0YWtlbjsgYWRkaW5nIGEgbmV3IElQIHZlcnNpb24gaXMgbm90IGxp Z2h0bHkgdGFrZW4NCj4gPiBlaXRoZXIuIEJlc2lkZXMsIHRoZXJlIGlzIHRoaXMgInJlc2VydmVk IHZhbHVlIDE1IiBpZGVhIGZyb20gSWNlLg0KPiANCj4gU2luY2UgdGhlIGNvbnRyb2wgd29yZCBp cyBvcHRpb25hbCB3aGVuIHRyYW5zcG9ydGluZyBFdGhlcm5ldCBvdmVyIE1QTFMsIEkNCj4gd29u ZGVyIHdoZXRoZXIgdGhlIGlkZWEgb2YgcmVzZXJ2aW5nIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBuaWJibGUgdmFsdWUg b2YgMTUgaXMgZmVhc2libGUgaW4NCj4gcHJhY3RpY2UuDQo+IA0KPiA+IENvdXBsZWQgd2l0aCB0 aGUgcmVhc29ucyB0aGF0IEVyaWMgZ2F2ZToNCj4gPg0KPiA+ID4gSSB0aGluayB0aGUgcHJvcGVy IGRpcmVjdGlvbiBpcyB0byB1c2UgdGhlIE1QTFMgZW50cm9weSBsYWJlbCwNCj4gPiA+IHJhdGhl ciB0aGFuIHRvIGhhdmUgZWFjaCByb3V0ZXIgY29tcHV0ZSB0aGUgZW50cm9weSBiYXNlZCBvbiBh bg0KPiA+ID4gYW5hbHlzaXMgb2YgdGhlIG5leHQgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBoZWFkZXIuDQo+ID4g Pg0KPiA+ID4gU28gSSBkb24ndCB0aGluayBCSUVSIGp1c3RpZmllcyB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIGEgbmV3 IE1QTFMgc3BlY2lhbA0KPiA+ID4gcHVycG9zZSBwYXlsb2FkLXByb3RvY29sLWlkZW50aWZpZXIg bGFiZWwuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBJIHdvdWxkIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBlbmNhcC1zcGVjaWZpYyBuaWJibGUg aXMgcXVpdGUgcmVhc29uYWJsZSwgYW5kDQo+ID4gYmV0dGVyIHRoYW4gYSBzcGVjaWFsIHB1cnBv c2UgbGFiZWwuDQo+IA0KPiBEdWUgdG8gdGhlIHNhbWUgcmVhc29uIGFzIG1lbnRpb25lZCBhYm92 ZSwgSSB3b25kZXIgd2hldGhlciBpdCdzIGZlYXNpYmxlIHRvDQo+IHJlc2VydmUgYSBjZXJ0YWlu IGZpcnN0IG5pYmJsZSB2YWx1ZSBhcyBhbiBlbmNhcC1zcGVjaWZpYyBuaWJibGUgaW4gcHJhY3Rp Y2UuDQoNCk1vcmUgc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5LCBzaW5jZSBpdCBhbGxvd3MgdGhlIEV0aGVybmV0IGZy YW1lcyB0byBiZSB0cmFuc3BvcnRlZCBvdmVyIE1QTFMgbmV0d29ya3Mgdy9vIGNvbnRyb2wgd29y ZCwgYW55IHBvc3NpYmxlIHZhbHVlIG9mIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBuaWJibGUgbWF5IGhhdmUgYmVlbiB1 c2VkLiBPZiBjb3Vyc2UsIGlmIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBuaWJibGUgaXMgaW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgYWZ0ZXIg YSBjZXJ0YWluIFNQTCBvciBFU1BMLCBpdCBiZWNvbWVzIHBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIHJlc2VydmUgYSBj ZXJ0YWluIHZhbHVlIG9mIHRoYXQgbmliYmxlIGFzIGEgZ2l2ZW4gZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBoZWFk ZXIgKHNlZSBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtZ3VpY2hhcmQtc2ZjLW1l dGFkYXRhLWhlYWRlci0wMCNwYWdlLTQpLiBIb3dldmVyLCBpbiB0aGlzIGNhc2UgKGkuZS4sIGFu IFNQTCBvciBFU1BMIGlzIHVzZWQpLCBpdCBzZWVtcyBtb3JlIHN0cmFpZ2h0Zm9yd2FyZCB0byBh ZGQgYSBwcm90byBmaWVsZCBhZnRlciB0aGUgZmlyc3QgbmliYmxlLCByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiB1c2lu ZyB0aGUgZmlyc3QgbmliYmxlIGl0c2VsZiBhcyBhIHBvb3ItbWFuJ3MgcHJvdG8gZmllbGQuDQoN Cj4gQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KPiBYaWFvaHUNCj4gDQo+ID4gSmVmZnJleQ0KPiBfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBtcGxzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KPiBtcGxzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vbXBscw0K From nobody Wed Mar 18 11:40:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBED81A900A; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CrsW4aPdDBNr; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1on0701.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::701]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 868CB1A8842; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.32.126] (66.129.241.14) by BY1PR0501MB1093.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.103.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.112.19; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:40:34 +0000 Message-ID: <5509C69D.3040409@juniper.net> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:40:29 -0400 From: Eric C Rosen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Xuxiaohu , idr wg , "bier@ietf.org" References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0830FD5F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0830FD5F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.14] X-ClientProxiedBy: BN3PR09CA0038.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (25.160.111.176) To BY1PR0501MB1093.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.103.139) Authentication-Results: juniper.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: BMV:1; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6049001)(6009001)(86362001)(46102003)(33656002)(42186005)(23746002)(230783001)(59896002)(122386002)(92566002)(80316001)(83506001)(77096005)(2950100001)(77156002)(62966003)(87976001)(65806001)(40100003)(50986999)(66066001)(65956001)(36756003)(2501003)(50466002)(65816999)(76176999)(47776003)(54356999)(64126003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; H:[172.29.32.126]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:; X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5005006)(5002010); SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1093; X-Forefront-PRVS: 051900244E X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2015 18:40:34.3980 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0501MB1093 Archived-At: Cc: erosen@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Bier] [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:40:56 -0000 Just a couple of comments. Consider carefully whether you really want the TLVs and sub-TLVs to have single-octet type fields. A two-octet type field could have a FCFS allocation policy for at least part of its range, which makes it a lot easier to avoid codepoint clash (and a lot easier to deploy stuff without getting involved in IETF politics). The draft never quite says that if the BIER path attribute is present, the NLRI is treated by BIER as a "BFR-prefix". Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I think this needs to be said explicitly. It might be worth mentioning that, when creating a BIER attribute, a BFR needs to include one BIER TLV for every pair that it supports. I find the following text from section 4 to be somewhat confusing: Furthermore, the routable address contained in the NLRI is RECOMMENDED to be the one used for establishing BGP sessions. In other words, the routable address is usually used as the BGP nexthop address of BGP updates advertised by that BGP speaker. The text following "in other words" doesn't really seem to be a paraphrase of the previous sentence; I'm not sure what you're really trying to say here. I suspect that what you're trying to say is something like: "When BGP distributes a route whose NLRI is a BFR-prefix, the next hop SHOULD also be a BFR-prefix." Of course, that leads to the question of what to do when the next hop is not a BFR-prefix. I don't think there's a clear answer in the draft. There is some text in section 6 suggesting that one could tunnel downstream to the next BIER-capable router on the path, but there's no text saying how you would figure out who that is. I wonder (warning, half-baked idea approaching) if the BIER TLV needs something like a "BIER next hop" sub-TLV. This could be changed to 'self' by every BFR that redistributes the route, but would be left unchanged by non-BFRs. Then you'd always know the next BFR in the path to a given BFER. We'd also have to take into account the case where a BFR redistributing a route supports some but not all of the sub-domains mentioned in the BIER attribute. Probably the BIER next hop sub-TLV would only get changed by a given BFR if that BFR is in the sub-domain identified by the BIER TLV that contains said sub-TLV. From nobody Wed Mar 18 12:23:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2631A908E; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:23:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 50aw0TQB8cGR; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F63B1A888A; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:23:04 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79686d0000030a8-83-55097b25ce88 Received: from EUSAAHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.90]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E1.96.12456.52B79055; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:18:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC006.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:22:59 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Eric C Rosen , Xuxiaohu , idr wg , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHQYascGhi2SsoSHUGB0TYElr3ql50inYKw Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:22:59 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827E479@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0830FD5F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <5509C69D.3040409@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <5509C69D.3040409@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPlK5qNWeowZmLphZLZ+xhsli34QOz xavbz5gstp5fxejA4tFy5C2rx5IlP5k8rjddZQ9gjuKySUnNySxLLdK3S+DKWPD0F3PBXq6K Y6dOsTcwzuboYuTkkBAwkZjTdJkNwhaTuHBvPZDNxSEkcIRRYsbGjSwQznJGiQU9R5lAqtgE LCQuf3vKDGKLCNRL/Os+xgpiCwskSLy8NoMdIp4o0bfqFZRtJLHq1nKwDSwCqhLHpy4B6+UV 8JZYN7MJzBYSKJNofwSyjJODU0BbYu+ZXWAzGYEu+n5qDdheZgFxiVtP5jNBXCogsWTPeWYI W1Ti5eN/rBC2osS+/unsEPU6Egt2f2KDsLUlli18DbVXUOLkzCcsExhFZyEZOwtJyywkLbOQ tCxgZFnFyFFanFqWm25ksIkRGC3HJNh0dzDueWl5iFGAg1GJh/fDRo5QIdbEsuLK3EOM0hws SuK8ix4cDBESSE8sSc1OTS1ILYovKs1JLT7EyMTBKdXAuHvblbAruaeq9gq/Vnm0/4P4fy7D Ve8WH3p33bPYaXITq8+fC2uPbVArWb7f4VRP7WTuqOyzuzr27S32z3RbOkeDoaN01r+IhVL9 vmV3jnKUOPS+7igxv90eeeS/yUzZKzd6dn6WX5of7VCQOuHa1+PXdItCvL+YfQmbN/kWY9z2 063Ge69q1iuxFGckGmoxFxUnAgDqjF0RdwIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:23:06 -0000 >=20 > The draft never quite says that if the BIER path attribute is present, th= e NLRI is > treated by BIER as a "BFR-prefix". Unless I'm misunderstanding something= , I > think this needs to be said explicitly. [Tony saiz:] I made the same comment and a larger discussion is whether o= nly a single NLRI (BFR-prefix) is allowed in such an update (i.e. update ca= rrying BIER attributes).=20 >=20 > It might be worth mentioning that, when creating a BIER attribute, a BFR = needs > to include one BIER TLV for every pair that it supports= . [Tony saiz:] I made the same comment. Alternative is to have a single BIER= attribute per sub-domain in an update to allow e.g. a loopback per sub-dom= ain (which does not sound right to me since the architecture seems to imply= a 1-1 assocation between a BFR prefix and a BIER domain). =20 > I wonder (warning, half-baked idea approaching) if the BIER TLV needs > something like a "BIER next hop" sub-TLV. This could be changed to 'self= ' by > every BFR that redistributes the route, but would be left unchanged by no= n- > BFRs. Then you'd always know the next BFR in the path to a given BFER. [Tony saiz:] hmm, yes, given the tunneling in the architecture this is so= mething I have to think through as well.=20 --- tony=20 From nobody Wed Mar 18 18:51:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED011A7D83; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pI1bF-vJ616d; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90BCA1A702E; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wifj2 with SMTP id j2so55526740wif.1; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:51:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ToDwbz0AjYZtl2HE+C0xwyTaOQYyXD3HRrOpFGpirEk=; b=Z5gJdw+SaHaa0nYxKmqK2GRtYiK1yVrQ7wQBPh2fXaA9WhmRbj0QPHpOZSEVhRxvza rnG3uvGKU/8BHwkOfAB7TcOAahy8yAN2K1YVlVy/IP9VBSTI85lVtTORph3pwRIAHw/6 8Y5iHfee4aDs1irUFufd/DUdBsDWtYRNAi1JcTCFkiPXGLbxWWIcm2Vztf+7+xkD67+F lbbC99X0EfpzZiCO5/bAQoHB+VptwzYJh3vZTT9tgAMZSNXHP8HMtjzjKRpevWPry2f1 F8oL6JkAwEfK8MDOVMTLMY6rFFDyoljH9XOcBE2WjNI24BYN94VbyZYJ8KYEJbQ8iMWx T9Bw== X-Received: by 10.194.75.168 with SMTP id d8mr149713355wjw.87.1426729883426; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.101.5] (host86-143-211-157.range86-143.btcentralplus.com. [86.143.211.157]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id m4sm26744504wjb.25.2015.03.18.18.51.21 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <550A2B98.4010409@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 01:51:20 +0000 From: Ignas Bagdonas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Xuxiaohu , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Antoni Przygienda , "stbryant@cisco.com" , Eric Rosen , BIER , IJsbrand Wijnands References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CEFD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CEFD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gbk; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 01:51:26 -0000 Hi, > Since the control word is optional when transporting Ethernet over MPLS, I wonder whether the idea of reserving the first nibble value of 15 is feasible in practice. Not using a control word for ethernet PW is painful from operational perspective. Many deployed platforms will look past the labels without much context and if they happen to find 4 or 6 there, the behavior will range from blindly believing that it is in fact IPv4 or IPv6 packet to trying to validate certain fields or even checksums. Control word helps here, and if both sides have support, it should be used. Ignas From nobody Thu Mar 19 00:41:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C857B1A8762; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 00:41:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FbOLYqY5W8tL; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 00:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CEE41A1B57; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 00:41:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1621; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426750871; x=1427960471; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=9ztbs+LNwbJ/HUn2pqLLWGEkjB7FPgRMEz4ohL/JFIs=; b=IqjSYhzDMFFK86VLgUVEzx1ux8SaL4QgLiF81bn+HP5gq+78nxX1IxMN iGlybXGztK8M2tqRHPpKcSEnMP3m9cN9Is46cF7n0IHjivTBZZiL/9wOj PuXKsDg82jrfwZyWfoqcF0DeVxufHChlUuiIH/2w8Rzq9vjosghXUM5xB s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BTCgDofApV/5NdJa1cgwaBLLQWj0SILwKBR0wBAQEBAQF9hA8BAQEDATo/BQsCAQgOCh4QIRElAgQOBYgbAwkIyBkNhTABAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARiLF4JEgXozB4MXgRYFjjuCDoghgUyOAoYmIoNub4EEJIEbAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,428,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="404839026" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Mar 2015 07:41:09 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com [173.37.183.75]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2J7f9lG024555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Mar 2015 07:41:09 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x04.cisco.com ([169.254.8.114]) by xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com ([173.37.183.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 02:41:09 -0500 From: "Stewart Bryant (stbryant)" To: Ignas Bagdonas Thread-Topic: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble Thread-Index: AQHQYec1U0ed6cLwWkSulZECuVCa0p0jbFFW Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 07:41:08 +0000 Message-ID: <95467337-1826-4C9E-888A-ABABE872CD56@cisco.com> References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CEFD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <550A2B98.4010409@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <550A2B98.4010409@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , BIER , "sfc@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda , "IJsbrand Wijnands \(iwijnand\)" , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 07:41:16 -0000 That is correct. PWE3 took over the design after draft-martini had been widely adopted and d= eployed, otherwise PWs may well have been exclusively CW. The wide deployme= nt of Ethernet PW without the CW means that PW OAM is more complicated than= it would otherwise be - see the latest vcxo over GAL draft from PALS. It w= as asserted in the early days that there would not be a problem because the= re would never be an ethernet address issued that alias with the IPv4 first= nibble. Well guess what happened? Yes they were and yes there was! There is another way forward, require the inclusion of the ELI and exclusiv= e use of ELI enabled LSPs, but in that case the packet size would go up by = more than needed to fix BIER and the operational complexity would be signif= icant, thus the cure would be worse than the disease. Stewart=20 Sent from my iPad > On 19 Mar 2015, at 01:51, Ignas Bagdonas wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > > Since the control word is optional when transporting Ethernet over MPLS= , I wonder whether the idea of reserving the first nibble value of 15 is fe= asible in practice. >=20 > Not using a control word for ethernet PW is painful from operational pers= pective. Many deployed platforms will look past the labels without much con= text and if they happen to find 4 or 6 there, the behavior will range from = blindly believing that it is in fact IPv4 or IPv6 packet to trying to valid= ate certain fields or even checksums. Control word helps here, and if both = sides have support, it should be used. >=20 > Ignas >=20 From nobody Thu Mar 19 03:57:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEF11A8974; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 03:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w8Ga2GGGclTt; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 03:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C3171A883A; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 03:57:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=217; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1426762669; x=1427972269; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0D7ULytw52vE8Rsw1bDbn9cB9GRuRcLLj/L+ojSfCKA=; b=L0aKJxaNdx3h0/oEEbdvuC2ElOAIa3HxMtI/SWrSp0kCoozuJjYzKnyg mX+BcBvA5GhnpztaVG2wk+MduMhgy8JM5ge4rfqTMso5EbZQX4pQChHxj e1ANAYVinmuPscz1Cn5yHIMKQOMAeKBAhOXTozTWgXFbo2x0NIKA4GmGi M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,429,1422921600"; d="scan'208";a="410305594" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Mar 2015 10:57:46 +0000 Received: from [64.103.108.142] (dhcp-bdlk10-data-vlan301-64-103-108-142.cisco.com [64.103.108.142]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t2JAvkBn021392; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:57:46 GMT Message-ID: <550AABAC.9020008@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:57:48 +0000 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ignas Bagdonas References: <55033E87.3030305@juniper.net> <5503403E.4050304@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CB77@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CBB2@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827D3C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CCE9@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831CEFD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, <550A2B98.4010409@gmail.com> <95467337-1826-4C9E-888A-ABABE872CD56@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <95467337-1826-4C9E-888A-ABABE872CD56@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , BIER , "sfc@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda , "IJsbrand Wijnands \(iwijnand\)" , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Xuxiaohu , Eric Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation first nibble X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:57:50 -0000 Re-my last email. Aren't learning spell correctors annoying! VCXO was supposed to be VCCV. Clearly my iPad feels itself to be more closely affiliated to my radio interests than my PW interests :( - Stewart From nobody Thu Mar 19 23:57:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211D51B2C52; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:57:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.422 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qf3u4KEcMcui; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EAF81B2C53; Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BQM11258; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 06:57:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.37) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 06:57:26 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.209]) by nkgeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:56:05 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Antoni Przygienda , Eric C Rosen , idr wg , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHQYasKItkY8wf3SEK3xghRwHT+hp0iGHCAgALZbFA= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 06:56:06 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0831D70A@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0830FD5F@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <5509C69D.3040409@juniper.net> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827E479@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F1827E479@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.82.142] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-xu-idr-bier-extensions-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 06:57:31 -0000 SGkgRXJpYyBhbmQgVG9ueSwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGEgbG90IGZvciB5b3VyIGNvbW1lbnRzLiBQbGVh c2Ugc2VlIG15IHJlc3BvbnNlIGlubGluZS4NCg0KPiAtLS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCj4gt6K8 /sjLOiBBbnRvbmkgUHJ6eWdpZW5kYSBbbWFpbHRvOmFudG9uaS5wcnp5Z2llbmRhQGVyaWNzc29u LmNvbV0NCj4gt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTXE6jPUwjE5yNUgMzoyMw0KPiDK1bz+yMs6IEVyaWMgQyBS b3NlbjsgWHV4aWFvaHU7IGlkciB3ZzsgYmllckBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiDW98ziOiBSRTogW0JpZXJd IFtJZHJdIEZXOiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9yDQo+IGRyYWZ0LXh1LWlkci1i aWVyLWV4dGVuc2lvbnMtMDEudHh0DQo+IA0KPiA+DQo+ID4gVGhlIGRyYWZ0IG5ldmVyIHF1aXRl IHNheXMgdGhhdCBpZiB0aGUgQklFUiBwYXRoIGF0dHJpYnV0ZSBpcyBwcmVzZW50LA0KPiA+IHRo ZSBOTFJJIGlzIHRyZWF0ZWQgYnkgQklFUiBhcyBhICJCRlItcHJlZml4Ii4gIFVubGVzcyBJJ20N Cj4gPiBtaXN1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nIHNvbWV0aGluZywgSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIG5lZWRzIHRvIGJl IHNhaWQgZXhwbGljaXRseS4NCj4gDQo+ICBbVG9ueSBzYWl6Ol0gIEkgbWFkZSB0aGUgc2FtZSBj b21tZW50IGFuZCBhIGxhcmdlciBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGlzIHdoZXRoZXINCj4gb25seSBhIHNpbmds ZSBOTFJJIChCRlItcHJlZml4KSBpcyBhbGxvd2VkIGluIHN1Y2ggYW4gdXBkYXRlIChpLmUuIHVw ZGF0ZSBjYXJyeWluZw0KPiBCSUVSIGF0dHJpYnV0ZXMpLg0KDQpXaWxsIG1ha2UgaXQgY2xlYXIg aW4gdGhlIG5leHQgdmVyc2lvbi4NCg0KPiA+IEl0IG1pZ2h0IGJlIHdvcnRoIG1lbnRpb25pbmcg dGhhdCwgd2hlbiBjcmVhdGluZyBhIEJJRVIgYXR0cmlidXRlLCBhDQo+ID4gQkZSIG5lZWRzIHRv IGluY2x1ZGUgb25lIEJJRVIgVExWIGZvciBldmVyeSA8c3ViLWRvbWFpbiwgYnNsPiBwYWlyIHRo YXQgaXQNCj4gc3VwcG9ydHMuDQo+IA0KPiAgW1Rvbnkgc2FpejpdIEkgbWFkZSB0aGUgc2FtZSBj b21tZW50LiBBbHRlcm5hdGl2ZSBpcyB0byBoYXZlIGEgc2luZ2xlIEJJRVINCj4gYXR0cmlidXRl IHBlciBzdWItZG9tYWluIGluIGFuIHVwZGF0ZSB0byBhbGxvdyBlLmcuIGEgbG9vcGJhY2sgcGVy IHN1Yi1kb21haW4NCj4gKHdoaWNoIGRvZXMgbm90IHNvdW5kIHJpZ2h0IHRvIG1lIHNpbmNlIHRo ZSBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgc2VlbXMgdG8gaW1wbHkgIGEgMS0xDQo+IGFzc29jYXRpb24gYmV0d2Vl biBhIEJGUiBwcmVmaXggYW5kIGEgQklFUiBkb21haW4pLg0KDQpXaWxsIG1ha2UgaXQgY2xlYXIg aW4gdGhlIG5leHQgdmVyc2lvbi4NCg0KPiA+IEkgd29uZGVyICh3YXJuaW5nLCBoYWxmLWJha2Vk IGlkZWEgYXBwcm9hY2hpbmcpIGlmIHRoZSBCSUVSIFRMViBuZWVkcw0KPiA+IHNvbWV0aGluZyBs aWtlIGEgIkJJRVIgbmV4dCBob3AiIHN1Yi1UTFYuICBUaGlzIGNvdWxkIGJlIGNoYW5nZWQgdG8N Cj4gPiAnc2VsZicgYnkgZXZlcnkgQkZSIHRoYXQgcmVkaXN0cmlidXRlcyB0aGUgcm91dGUsIGJ1 dCB3b3VsZCBiZSBsZWZ0DQo+ID4gdW5jaGFuZ2VkIGJ5IG5vbi0gQkZScy4gVGhlbiB5b3UnZCBh bHdheXMga25vdyB0aGUgbmV4dCBCRlIgaW4gdGhlIHBhdGggdG8NCj4gYSBnaXZlbiBCRkVSLg0K PiANCj4gIFtUb255IHNhaXo6XSAgaG1tLCB5ZXMsIGdpdmVuIHRoZSB0dW5uZWxpbmcgaW4gdGhl IGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSB0aGlzIGlzDQo+IHNvbWV0aGluZyBJIGhhdmUgdG8gdGhpbmsgdGhyb3Vn aCBhcyB3ZWxsLg0KDQoNCldpbGwgY29uc2lkZXIgaXQgaW4gdGhlIG5leHQgdmVyc2lvbi4gQW5v dGhlciB3YXkgaXMgdG8gZGlyZWN0bHkgdHVubmVsIHRoZSBCSUVSIHBhY2tldCB0byB0aGUgQkZF Ui4gVGhpcyB3YXkgaGFzIGJlZW4gbWVudGlvbmVkIGluIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IHZlcnNpb246DQoN CiAgIFNpbmNlIHRoZSBCSUVSIGF0dHJpYnV0ZSBpcyBhbiBvcHRpb25hbCwgdHJhbnNpdGl2ZSBC R1AgcGF0aA0KICAgYXR0cmlidXRlLCBhIG5vbi1CRlIgQkdQIHNwZWFrZXJzIGNvdWxkIHN0aWxs IGFkdmVydGlzZSB0aGUgcmVjZWl2ZWQNCiAgIHJvdXRlIHdpdGggYSBCSUVSIGF0dHJpYnV0ZS4g IFRoaXMgaXMgZGVzaXJhYmxlIGluIHRoZSBpbmNyZW1lbnRhbA0KICAgZGVwbG95bWVudCBzY2Vu YXJpbyB3aGVyZSBhIEJHUCBzcGVha2VyIGNvdWxkIHR1bm5lbCBhIEJJRVIgcGFja2V0IG9yDQog ICB0aGUgcGF5bG9hZCBvZiBhIEJJRVIgcGFja2V0IHRvIGEgQkZFUiBkaXJlY3RseSBpZiB0aGUg QkdQIG5leHQtaG9wDQogICBvZiB0aGUgcm91dGUgZm9yIHRoYXQgQkZFUiBpcyBhIG5vbi1CRlIu DQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNClhpYW9odQ0KIA0KPiAtLS0gdG9ueQ0KDQo= From nobody Sat Mar 21 12:28:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570151A86EF for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkletTirA-va for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C3351A7028 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibg7 with SMTP id g7so10844725wib.1 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:28:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=rS/kyIupXYRMSQyuE10sM5/DgXrJL2qT9qLvmcu7/Sc=; b=TtbwQrHQNX8gsVNOBWlh4dpPTCY8LQw7iV405s0Hi1VzUaffycQw5nEWDViTnksEfo WLv8Fwv/GZVQiqwFZcSIou8B3PubET0BdWVXcE8j1/YLVaVwNFOs+C7Su2+8v0T04VQj w08fmSJLh6HGfzDaZLZ9mjZh8yVnpW0POW2rKRBfWDwdhu4fxg0edQbpOB4QntIeGjDx fCgOTjTElWeAgG9NMagCI4UxyYRa8DPwd7HSt6mza0dCkXBwYis9eBMhc4l6gNSfGluy bho5/qdaOFz9SD5dBxnNpQtSAlk/rvbGPfhTs03pMWpa2jmgxyPszr+4avjASKZmGCvQ 6xIw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.108.177 with SMTP id hl17mr6378826wib.35.1426966098058; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.101.98 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:28:17 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=e89a8f3ba43b61e6290511d16f7e Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] IETF 92 BIER WG bits.. X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:28:21 -0000 --e89a8f3ba43b61e6290511d16f7e Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3ba43b61e6230511d16f7c --e89a8f3ba43b61e6230511d16f7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 BIER, Thanks for the agenda feedback! Rev'd and posted. And thanks to those who's sent me their slides. For the rest of you on the agenda, please send the slides ASAP so we can have them posted before the WG meeting. Thanks, and see all of you soon! Greg (Chairs) --e89a8f3ba43b61e6230511d16f7c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
BIER,

Thanks for the agenda feedback! R= ev'd and posted.

And thanks to those who's sent = me their slides. For the rest of you on the agenda, please send the slides = ASAP so we can have them posted before the WG meeting.

=
Thanks, and see all of you soon!

Greg (Chairs= )
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s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=oF/3+A+iEfS0e0fxoU2Tn3heBVVSO4oJST3UtOHY4k8=; b=lpd5X2cwVBbbIOhb0IK3jWkrrrxmZ6wVEGXTNmqPwgXiNimXm6emNH4fSf94+zv/VA y8fcsCDQyeXeGN2bY+P21j7kZMg4Owd8eHqXtrWCa2fCEJ84QTmtIB/sKUPLZw1yluF2 nWD6bf7hwHT0ySIo4c+J8TFMQYF81vzAXsMDBHJPfswTxfqX2mWzH48MvNEUvBqHYXLh g0kpG4jr1w3G5m1kOXP6G6sQQbW9MDzyQV2EMveWWlzBbCRIj1RMbo6oP1+wmzEwDv/E XHC7vPBKJak1aXoubGM/yokfOvMhYeZNKsMNM6ETzueRfU9DdnuMDvhcTbloHLjbLFBS X8lg== X-Received: by 10.180.82.9 with SMTP id e9mr13804493wiy.88.1427057748865; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NoboAkiyaPC ([2001:67c:370:136:e4f3:a6f6:e360:5e1d]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k4sm5275701wiz.0.2015.03.22.13.55.45 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:55:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Nobo Akiya" To: "'Nagendra Kumar Nainar \(naikumar\)'" , "'Eric C Rosen'" , "'Antoni Przygienda'" , References: <5500574E.9020502@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 15:55:41 -0500 Message-ID: <008201d064e2$916e8430$b44b8c90$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQDjPefSEdSUDlxXS+A5xO1KNDObOp8DR4nw Content-Language: en-ca Archived-At: Cc: 'Gregory Mirsky' , "'Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)'" , 'Mach Chen' , vero.zheng@huawei.com Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 20:55:53 -0000 Hi Eric, Tony, Nagendra, et al, Great comments and discussions! I have further comments/questions. Please see in-line with [NOBO]. > -----Original Message----- > From: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) [mailto:naikumar@cisco.com] > Sent: March-12-15 7:21 PM > To: Eric C Rosen; Antoni Przygienda; bier@ietf.org > Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Mach Chen; Nobo = Akiya; > vero.zheng@huawei.com > Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-kumarzheng-bier-ping-00.txt >=20 > Hi Eric, >=20 > Thanks for the excellent comments. Please see below, >=20 > >I have a few questions and comments. > > > >First, thanks for not calling it "bier-pong" ;-) >=20 > LOL :). When I tried to locate the draft using =B3bier + = ping=B2 in google, > it pops a messages that an unusual search and asked me to confirm that = I am > human and not machine :) [NOBO] "bier-pong" is a great name! It's not too late to change :) >=20 > > > >Any TLV that has a BitString and an SI also has to have a sub-domain > >id, or else the set of BFERs identified in the BitString cannot be > >determined (nor can the BFIR). >=20 > Yes, I agree. We will include sub-domain id in the TLVs. >=20 > > > >I don't understand why it makes sense to use the BIER data plane to > >respond to a ping or traceroute. I'd think you'd want to avoid BIER = in > >the reverse direction, and use ICMP to send back the responses. >=20 > We considered both. You are right that we don=B9t validate anything > in the reverse direction and can be IP based reply. [NOBO] -00 proposes a field "Reply Mode" in the BIER OAM header which = allows an initiator of the operation to choose the reverse "channel" that = responder BFR uses. Value Meaning -------- --------------- 1 Do not Reply 2 Reply via IPv4/IPv6 UDP packet. 3 Reply via BIER packet This provides improved diagnostic capability (e.g., we can still = diagnose the BIER layer even if there's a temporary/persistent problem at the IP layer), and I think this is a good thing. By "I'd think you'd want to = avoid BIER in the reverse direction ...", if there's a technical reason why we should remove the "Reply via BIER packet" option, I'd like to hear the reason. >=20 > >This > >would mean that the request needs to have the IP address to which to > >respond. (If you do use BIER for the responses, you'd certainly need > >to know the sub-domain in which to interpret the BFIR, and you'd need > >to know the sub-domain to choose the right BIER-MPLS label.) >=20 > By including the sub-domain in the TLV, we can use the BFIR = id to > fetch the BFR-Prefi form IGP database. But I think, it will be more = clean to have > a TLV carrying the =B3Reply-to=B2 address which will more control to = instruct what > address to reply to. >=20 > > > >Overall, I agree with Tony that the draft would benefit from a lot = more > >attention to procedures -- the document really doesn't make clear = just > >how you put together the set of TLVs to actually do a traceroute (or > >even a ping). Until it's clear just what information needs to be > >carried forwards and back, there's no point in discussing TLV = formats. >=20 > Sure. We will detail the procedure in next revision. >=20 > > > >For the traceroute case, the draft also needs to address the issue of > >how the initiator should collate the replies to figure out what path > >actually gets followed by a given data packet. >=20 > The current draft proposes TLVs to carry in Reply that = includes > - incoming interface, incoming BitString (in the header) and also downstream > neighbors to which the reply was sent, along with egress BitString = that will be > sent to each downstream neighbor. IMHO, Initiator will be able to use these > information (along with sender handler) to portrait end to end path. = How it > portrait the path would be a local matter, I think. We will include a point in the > procedure and mention it as local matter. >=20 > Do you think something is missing from the Initiator point of view = that needs to > be clarified?. [NOBO] The BIER OAM header has "Sequence Number" field which is set by = the initiator and incremented with every packet sent, and the responder BFRs return this value the in reply. The initiator can use this "Sequence = Number" to correlate the ping to pong(s). How an initiator will do this is an implementation matter, but I do think it's a good idea to capture the Traceroute and TreeTrace flows in the document. >=20 > > > >If a user says, "I'm getting spotty service when I try to receive a > >given data stream", how would one use these mechanisms to = troubleshoot? >=20 > Ok. I think the procedure section (after updating) will be = more > generic. Do you think, it is reasonable to add an Appendix section to = give a > couple of such examples from usage point of view?. [NOBO] IMO, the critical aspect is that the implementation will need to = take the user specified and generate the BIER header including = the Entropy field. The BIER OAM (i.e., Ping and Traceroute) is then ran on = the generated BIER header to troubleshot, which should traverse exactly the = same ECMP path as the does. >=20 > > > >If you wanted to troubleshoot a problems with a particular user data > >stream, I think you'd need to know the entropy value of the data > >packets in the troublesome data stream. You'd want to specify the > >entropy and find out what path is followed by packets to a given BFER > >(or set of > >BFERs) with that entropy value. To enable this, the BitString TLVs > >would need to have an entropy value. The draft doesn't seem to have > >any provision for that. (And unless deterministic ECMP is used, I'm > >not sure this is a tractable problem at all.) >=20 > I think, we can achieve this in 2 ways. One option is to = have the > Initiator (assuming that is also acting as the ingress for the actual = data stream) > to use the same Entropy value (that will be used in the data > traffic) in probe packet. By this, we don=B9t need to query each = transit BFRs. The > other option is to query each BFR along the path about entropy range = for each > ECMP path. This query does not need to carry any data stream details = as the > entropy query is not specific to stream instead the path that will be selected > within a range. This is analogous to ECMP tree trace in MPLS LSP Ping. [NOBO] IMO, I think the former is most usable. It means that the BIER = OAM CLI/API will allow users to specify the , but I don't think = the BitString TLVs need to have any entropy values since the BIER header = already has the Entropy field (draft-wijnands-mpls-bier-encapsulation). >=20 > > > >For traceroute, I guess the request sent by the initiator would be > >carried unchanged until there's a TTL expiry. I think the request > >needs to carry the original BIER header (augmented with SI and > >sub-domain); this would be sent back in the response, along with the > >corresponding information that is in the BIER header when the request > >is received by the responder. This would tell you which BFERs from = the > >original BitString are in the sub-tree of the responder. (The = document > >does have a TLV for this.) >=20 > Yes. > > > >The draft seems to be trying to have the mechanisms discover all > >possible ECMP paths that a packet might take, but I don't really see > >how that is going to work in a scalable manner. >=20 > The primary intention is to have a way to perform ECMP = query per > BFER. To troubleshoot a failure to a specific BFER or set of BFERs = should be > possible by querying (and using) ECMP paths for one of the affected = BFER and > use the entropy. >=20 >=20 > >Also, I don't understand > >the proposed use of the "Multipath Entropy TLV". What value gets put > >in it, and under what circumstances? >=20 > This is similar to section 3.3.1 of RFC4379. To avoid = redundant > information, we tried referring to RFC4379 (noticed that section info = is not > given). Will it be helpful to have an example in Appendix?. >=20 > > > >I don't really understand the Upstream Interface and Downstream = Mapping > >TLVs. >=20 > Upstream Interface TLV is used by the responder to define = the > incoming interface of the probe packet. This is useful to detect any deviation in > HW/distributed forwarding. Per BFR-A control-plane, Bit-id 10 is = reachable via > interface-A while the data plane have a stale entry pointing towards Interface-B. > In this case, the reply from BFR-A will have downstream address which = does not > match with upstream interface TLV of next response. [NOBO] It is really the Downstream Mapping TLVs that provides the = Traceroute operation to perform the validation at every transit BFR. A BFR at = TTL=3Dn will say outgoing adjacency is X in the Downstream Mapping TLV included = in the Reply. Initiator takes the Downstream Mapping TLV received from = TTL=3Dn in the Reply and places the same Downstream Mapping TLV in the Request for TTL=3Dn+1. The BFR at TTL=3Dn+1 will take the received Downstream = Mapping TLV and validates that the packet was indeed received on the "place" which = is described by the Downstream Mapping TLV. Upstream Interface TLV is for every BFR to return the "place" which the = BIER packet was received from, so that initiator, thus user, has more = information of actual paths traversed in case of "problems". >=20 >=20 > > If these are supposed to identify BIER adjacencies, then they need = to > >take account of the fact that a pair of adjacent BFRs might be > >separated by an IP or MPLS tunnel, rather than being directly = connected. > > Or are these TLVs supposed to identify IGP adjacencies rather than > >BIER adjacencies? What exactly is the intended function of these = TLVs, > >and will they fulfill that function when the adjacenct BFRs are not > >directly connected? >=20 > Good point about the IP/MPLS tunnel :).The intention is to carry the > BIER adjacency details. We will check this point and include in next revision. [NOBO] Does a pair of BFRs separated by an IP or MPLS tunnel still have = a direct BIER adjacencies at the BIER layer? If yes (and I think this is = the case, but do correct me if I'm wrong), then I think we are good as long = as we place clarifications in the OAM document. >=20 > > > >With regard to traceroute, have you considered the impact of the > >"uniform model" for TTL handling (see RFC 3443)? It may not always = be > >possible to ensure that the TTL in the BIER-MPLS label is decremented > >only by the number of BFR hops. In such a case, once a request has > >reached a particular BFR, the initiator might have to increment TTL > >several times to get a request to reach the next BFR hops. This is > >something that needs to be discussed in a specification of the > >traceroute procedures. It's also worth thinking about what would > >happen if a BIER OAM packet experiences TTL expiry while in the = middle > >of a unicast tunnel. >=20 > Yes, Right. This needs to be clarified in the document. We = will > include this in next revision. [NOBO] Very good point. For the "uniform model", it might be safer so = say that the Tracerout operation cannot be supported, i.e., trying to tweak = the TTL at BFRs is error prone and can likely create more problems (e.g., = tunnel reopts, FRR, etc). Unless of course the BIER WG is ok placing a = TTL/HopCount in the BIER Header :) >=20 > > > >The request has a "sequence number" that is supposed to be used to > >detect missing responses. I don't see how that will work, since a > >single request in general elicits multiple responses. You wouldn't = be > >able to use the sequence number to detect missing responses unless = all > >responses to the request with that sequence number were missing. > > > >It might make sense though for the sequence number to be the same as > >the original TTL placed in the BIER-MPLS label by the initiator of = the > >request. >=20 > Thanks for the alternate suggestion. But I think it will = suffer the > same problem. I will discuss this with other authors and update accordingly. [NOBO] Hmm...=20 For Ping, number of responses =3D=3D number of 1s in the BitString. For Traceroute, TTL=3Dn tells you how many downstreams there are. Thus = number of responses at TTL=3Dn+1 =3D=3D number of downstreams specified by = TTL=3Dn. One thought triggered in my head as result is above comment, for = TreeTrace, is that the "downstreams" described by the BFR Reply need to = differentiate between replicated downstreams vs. ECMPed downstreams. Thanks! -Nobo >=20 > > > >The return codes are not very well-defined, and it's not clear just > >what the principles are that led to choosing that particular set of > >return codes. It would be good to see some discussion of what > >information it is useful to return in various troubleshooting = scenarios. >=20 > Sure. We will update with more details on the Return code. >=20 > Once again, thanks for the wonderful comments. >=20 > Regards, > Nagendra From nobody Tue Mar 24 21:42:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8F31ACDA0; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:42:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bA40pFduA0AI; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FB011ACD8A; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.137.136] (dhcp-8988.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.136]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id t2P4gEdN021381 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:42:16 -0700 Message-ID: <55123CA6.8070502@acm.org> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 23:42:14 -0500 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bier@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVam+u3EugeyV5LOxO5ao3ht3vXmKWHAr3nriSY5XKmDEFSgK0gpvWZNtVIkVHSWr10vmfcTDSx+P1TqdLH1tSgdDXX49FTmEGk= X-Sonic-ID: C;/hwpT6nS5BGjI9BwQIsAyQ== M;OgfzT6nS5BGjI9BwQIsAyQ== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Cc: "rtg-dt-encap-considerations@ietf.org" Subject: [Bier] Encapsulation considerations X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 04:42:29 -0000 I don't know to what extent folks are paying attention to RTGWG but I presented the report from the encapsulation design team this afternoon. The draft is http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtg-dt-encap/ and the slides are at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-rtgwg-8.pdf There is probably things in there to consider for BIER, and things that can be reused to make it easier to move BIER forward. Sorry for not sending things out to the WG earlier. Erik From nobody Wed Mar 25 07:11:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F921AD0D7; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sQiK_RdXWKzs; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x235.google.com (mail-ig0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 856051AD26B; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbud6 with SMTP id ud6so102248786igb.1; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:11:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=BZY7BnxDl3JvKV1koMSjKgFXmy9IQpeqERwNAr1UP3o=; b=sGRMfTiMObNDZ0WcpfTyMI1AfzspHyxEFw/4vdhh2RN0taqRg8NyAHLnnCwAuzxh31 9Q5qa0B0XZqJNmHuUO4Cw6F/dZVCSuxii3Rilif0aRiXjfzWeA7DdHRyzP7bLUJ4pcg4 FyY7VCRmgGRxWCRlFyVx0waIBFbzuYBA1xBYdP9IPSXqCrkdpTIZQPB8bASOIH/g3f3/ ZU+K8OakHU7fgcFz7UWj8/ZU6YDrsnOW7vZI1ThppnjL0PylTBiey0kzXw9PdhzmZKg1 mIDyels2bLSI9DsGeRmp8CdY23K4V+5az8LTYQ7OqDNQ0tc6n5bxAy8mmZPd1XmzZjA0 sPSw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.141.199 with SMTP id rq7mr30283153igb.4.1427292678959; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.38.129 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 07:11:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55123CA6.8070502@acm.org> References: <55123CA6.8070502@acm.org> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 09:11:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: Erik Nordmark Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013a123c1eb82305121d79f2 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , "rtg-dt-encap-considerations@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Encapsulation considerations X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:11:33 -0000 --089e013a123c1eb82305121d79f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 highly recommended reading IMO given that we have the privilege to define encapsulations in our charter thanks --- tony On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:42 PM, Erik Nordmark wrote: > I don't know to what extent folks are paying attention to RTGWG but I > presented the report from the encapsulation design team this afternoon. > The draft is > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtg-dt-encap/ > and the slides are at > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-rtgwg-8.pdf > > There is probably things in there to consider for BIER, and things that > can be reused to make it easier to move BIER forward. > > Sorry for not sending things out to the WG earlier. > Erik > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --089e013a123c1eb82305121d79f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
highly recommended reading IMO given that we have the priv= ilege to define encapsulations in our charter=C2=A0

than= ks=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:42 PM= , Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org> wrote:
I don't know to what extent folks are paying attention t= o RTGWG but I presented the report from the encapsulation design team this = afternoon.
The draft is
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtg-dt-encap/
and the slides are at
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-= 92-rtgwg-8.pdf

There is probably things in there to consider for BIER, and things that can= be reused to make it easier to move BIER forward.

Sorry for not sending things out to the WG earlier.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Erik

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BIER@ietf.org
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--089e013a123c1eb82305121d79f2-- From nobody Wed Mar 25 12:52:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E80C1A8AB3 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FftghFFz1Ohf for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 12:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x234.google.com (mail-ie0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBFAB1A8AA1 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 12:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iedfl3 with SMTP id fl3so34532058ied.1 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 12:52:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=pajDRnlszB/Ho8ayZnd49GexJ+K6Jyg0iu1OyV4Nt+Y=; b=vrPXIJHE+uAbW9ko58dG6hYc6z58AA7wJsLfDXtB6ahcqp/JqXj8U7UBz6r48htT0n P1O/biUAlAIGLRTFPBw76TAatmwQVh7wrDfPatVqgNg8wYfVJExYK56GyV4AOBw0kNk8 vp0rtIFksX+0ct5KmE2zhLxHxcAxwIGXr/Xhygv5j49pNUL6FSfMrmlBf5dBq0Hof5Ju NgSVMlfXX8aL+YPgr1oKaRNLXiyn+XofOQkyh7xfKkPQZ5eOnXXbEBQKKMOhxMBqkazx 0S88y4rJM4SNd3dOhm6iyB3qEmUu+J1mr+CvI0qPuaFagH5NQmL3MW2d0UPRv06TTdxP 3S4w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.224.1 with SMTP id im1mr34247603icb.55.1427313164003; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 12:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.137.70 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Mar 2015 12:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:52:43 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: XlwLVGLHESYwEjHpkpPSzoWtyi0 Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113322021fb2940512223ec5 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] MTU X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 19:52:45 -0000 --001a113322021fb2940512223ec5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 inspired by OAM slides I have a question ... How do we do path mtu discovery in bier ? Would bier enabled node be able to fragment if some receivers are behind lower MTU links then others ? Many thx, R. --001a113322021fb2940512223ec5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 inspired by OAM slides I have a question ... How do we do path mtu discovery in bier ?

Would bier enabled node be able to fragment if some receivers are behind lower MTU links then others ?

Many thx,
R.
--001a113322021fb2940512223ec5-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 08:09:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC9F1A0362 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T_9E7FV7pDBc for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x234.google.com (mail-wi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCD911AD080 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibbg6 with SMTP id bg6so68091978wib.0 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:08:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=rXNuPpV2Lu/0PIAsucHEikbCy95jgdB4rfQvbR9bwyA=; b=Yy/sm3V3EtcOH4sh2iVDIxElxQTB/vk++1HldE9ii8DgtUTBoEMtZP93V8DQDLwbqi 1tgZSBZ/5TUEaHKrSFsy9t2D3m985DmBtaXH/NMvnYTY7JHV/qvRdlAn+jNL7O9FdFzZ TcMQU1YzZIQsNkKaHXLspJ+9E5GP0OqZPdGC+zk58zLm9DESlg0WsyNcSMKfwKzYOah2 0M3mumKu+77uOHPQNuqbTj6eOjzG6jL4G/Z+BjS5xMgzM6hRo/Ydc4r8Gpas7+vsEH+U 5Oua4Mec6U4yxRygdqJft9uBJtnSGo7wWOitJSB1LsWqoZeMx9gR6IiuMAlvRmyUeAqA SpoQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.80.101 with SMTP id q5mr42207082wix.83.1427382486592; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.83.9 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:08:06 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04428f38127609051232624e Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Dallas WG Meeting Minutes X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 15:09:52 -0000 --f46d04428f38127609051232624e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thanks for everyone's participation this week. It was a great milestone event! Please review the minutes and send feedback to the chairs: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/minutes Thanks!, Greg --f46d04428f38127609051232624e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for everyone's participation this week. It was = a great milestone event!

Please review the minutes and s= end feedback to the chairs:

--f46d04428f38127609051232624e-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 09:04:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8543F1A87D5 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TqRJVUhYwc28 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 836DA1A87D7 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by oifl3 with SMTP id l3so53195074oif.0 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:04:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=5V4xD4KCX9VrKDZsCaFvaT+1jde/ThNzOysNkozlSR8=; b=RvCFdPOJmVAuRQJVTlzduaZH+2DdhEvHdjAZC0O/E/cxQaKam0jXboIGBK+XWA9lyA EbvnOZKFkTGUCjEmhPy6ScDuddfQ9nmMByCZvvceQrMA0WSHLXgynWQJcUpl9mwH3sAf dhgiiMTRdFW+nXZYc5QZLuPkhWB32wsE247vf4G0K4Mh3jAcbRaDgag9RLgzMtEMmh7A mm9KL6lxIBM/yRHueKf8yond/QqA5T2z/KgudsUQoZyGC6V/JH+IrKRSjw8hyDu2snvD NNSJXMuFXgPY3Y8IJDyp2SX/ZTHS1Jl+TksKxKedW8hUprxQoWJWrW2MiQDGT3eaNQUq 8M4g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.65.8 with SMTP id o8mr11949143oia.113.1427385874078; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.44.198 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:04:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:04:33 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Greg Shepherd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ddb5efb61bd0512332b0a Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Dallas WG Meeting Minutes X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 16:04:36 -0000 --001a113ddb5efb61bd0512332b0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Greg, Thank you for getting out draft minutes so promptly. It's an excellent start for a new working group ;-) Alia On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Thanks for everyone's participation this week. It was a great milestone > event! > > Please review the minutes and send feedback to the chairs: > > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/minutes > > Thanks!, > Greg > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --001a113ddb5efb61bd0512332b0a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg,

Thank you for getting out draft m= inutes so promptly.
It's an excellent start for a new working= group ;-)

Alia

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Greg S= hepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for everyone's participation this week. = It was a great milestone event!

Please review the minute= s and send feedback to the chairs:


Thanks!,
Greg

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--001a113ddb5efb61bd0512332b0a-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 13:01:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380E91B2E27 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 13:01:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DWrIgMVbfx4s for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 13:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E32111B2D64 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 13:01:46 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f790b6d000004359-fb-551403a89ff3 Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 75.0D.17241.8A304155; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 14:03:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Thu, 26 Mar 2015 16:01:45 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Alia Atlas , Greg Shepherd Thread-Topic: [Bier] Dallas WG Meeting Minutes Thread-Index: AQHQZ9bsyouxTh4EMUGGOqnNUliPXp0vMHmA///3XSA= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 20:01:44 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F18288EFD@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F18288EFDeusaamb103ericsso_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: 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