From nobody Tue Oct 6 15:14:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8ED1B4141 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 15:14:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t6q5G4PtlCAY for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 15:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f49.google.com (mail-pa0-f49.google.com [209.85.220.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54D911B4143 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2015 15:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by padhy16 with SMTP id hy16so81859629pad.1 for ; Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=U/KzZ761HFx5qT2afeYhlMABCZXwD/MN7dmYNvP6bdw=; b=k4CBW+bmBaM8YUBicTxe9SZdqN3Mwfo8/Pq9f31/qlEPCswgusy7MdntxJWpVgWFAT lzXJ0ND7uxAtKkrKKcEjzSVrEyKb41zEgXMaatrjG7gQhEWeS1sCrZLjMx+zutse92fo I65ngxpZ9/vteMi7VKxJp7tU0UW27HEhkdQRpOaCfihmqqaDhZIY5XcsFqkpuK5KXN1y WhyAslHdpAYzNS7nbOArHzzLWEeq21SsSx3tMwjIMjYb196urdwUxPIDHNKxLQKzvB7m EVAKkIg4nGWLBhJZLh/v9VQ8zWD2D/FkJY7Mku/NF4r/r6mr8e3DMv4I59e+voklvkkF 0RLg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlT3S2tpNG/V+aESiMy9xN2ouuivTip/sXcYeAxCItDKmlWxO/XUEwqnwywBiCjKN9YyX+0 X-Received: by 10.68.180.131 with SMTP id do3mr49428989pbc.133.1444169671800; Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ce3sm35391299pbb.35.2015.10.06.15.14.30 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) To: bier@ietf.org References: <20150803151506.14940.59992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <561447C5.3090800@nexenta.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 15:14:29 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20150803151506.14940.59992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 22:14:35 -0000 I know these comments may be a bit late, but I've had a nagging doubt about these uses-cases for awhile. Those doubts didn't formulate into a specific form until just recently, however. The key problem I have is this: Bier requires new dataplane forwarding chips. The subset targeting is done in every multicast packet. I would expect that BIER use cases would all be examples where there was a need for dynamically selected multicast targets, and for the bitmap solution to compare favorably to extending MLD to dynamically create forwarding rules on an as-needed basis. Basically, imagine an alternate solution where the sender makes a request to an MLD snooper for a multicast channel that will reach an enumerated set of targets, and is allocated a multicast group for that purpose. Such a solution would require only co-operation between MRouters and MLD Snoopers. The L2 forwarding tables would be unchanged. No "BIER Header" would be required on a per packet basis. When the targeted group is too dynamic for the MRouter/MLD snooper setup time then BIER would be a better solution. But I'm not seeing that in any of these use-cases. I described a storage cluster application that would benefit from BIER in my proposal for Transactional Subset Multicasting. (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bestler-transactional-multicast-00) (http://storagetarget.com/2015/08/13/transactional-subset-multicasting/) That dealt with a data source that needs to multicast a chunk (variable sized, but typically 100s of KB to MBs) to multiple destinations. Each chunk transfer is potetially to a different set of storage targets. But that problem can be solved by pre-population of the potential combinations of destinations and/or a custom control-plane proxy that extended MLD snooping. The BIER solution is simpler, but not sufficiently simpler to justify changing how every multicast packet is forwarded. For all of the use cases cited here the duration of a specific target set seems to be even longer. There may be HPC applications which meet the requirements of true datagram multicasting. It would be nice to hear from some HPC architects about what their specific requirements are. Whether it is the use-case draft or the applicability draft I would expect more of a detail trade-off between new methods of configuring current multicast forwarding tables versus fundamentally new multicast forwarding technology. If the current solution is irrevocably limited then prove it, don't just cite some use cases where this might be nice. From nobody Wed Oct 7 09:36:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BEB1ACE64 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:36:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Y1Z6daIJDUp for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f50.google.com (mail-pa0-f50.google.com [209.85.220.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDD551ACE4F for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by padhy16 with SMTP id hy16so26027893pad.1 for ; Wed, 07 Oct 2015 09:36:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=djUAP4FypmKXYXUY1qC19oDg0SgAS3u4GDDBXN4Q/c8=; b=CYpWs2yQ9FjXZaO5icKqeD7FbVgyyCnHLMIiVZByIET5FCTEk8tD8Z7LXopUQOFqkV Sm3hL5SlpLDnbOYSGH1EcyW1aVSVKBVCHuGkzZnqEQD3nmRj23SNlUFmhElVAlV/PeCo SgkzXVI385T6oU/SIjXTk5GTlGE08AIeAg00aizKDoGnlUCLUY/nZpy5ZPc3w00ruqRf jcnEJFewaeJiKyYf9y7md30Pqfu+0nM8OQx5fs7HkhrA59eS0he6lvXqtmOkmaclzjig 5/AYDyxU2+7HftLIn4q/BqsgRk/HbeNWbyta6vfQLVlxIheoa49fa+iKSIkf8LEAeM/l pZuA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnAorbUgZYR5QJo1cTTIhdBLucRlSypvM3X8qACKMZ4VUmt+OfTmgAFZoL90kbsUZsOUdnE X-Received: by 10.68.98.227 with SMTP id el3mr2112053pbb.20.1444235769391; Wed, 07 Oct 2015 09:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id yq2sm40389273pbb.39.2015.10.07.09.36.07 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 07 Oct 2015 09:36:08 -0700 (PDT) To: bier@ietf.org From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <561549FC.1000308@nexenta.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:36:12 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Datacenters and Use Cases X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 16:36:11 -0000 An interesting side conversation started as the result of my prior email on the use-case document. I'd like to capture some of the more pertinent thoughts about usage of BIER in datacenters. First, I have a storage cluster application which will map to BIER almost perfectly. The sending nodes pick a set of receivers for each chunk transfer. Being able to specify those targets with a bitmap fits the application's needs almost perfectly. I am also convinced that there are many HPC applications where this will be true. However we have not yet gotten their attention to find out precisely what forms of addressing would be most useful to those applications. There is also a major difference between multicasting in a cluster and multicasting over the Internet. Eliminating delivery to BFERs that do not need a given datagram is critical for long-haul networks. Sending a datagram miles (or hundreds of miles) and then brillilantly figuring out that it did not need to be delivered the remaining five feet isn't optimizing things much. But for the clusters I'm designing a storage application for that is precisely the case (although the distance between the racks is probably measured in yards rather than miles). Basically it is fairly common to design a "non-blocking core", that is a set of switches which can deliver all the traffic from all of the ingress ports to any set of egress ports as long as the aggregate traffic to any egress port does not exceed that capacity. It is as though the core is a single 1024 port non-blocking switch. Provisioning one is simply a matter of allocating sufficient internal links. But in any distributed application there is always the potential that 6 different senders will want to send to the same destination concurrently. In order to manage that traffic it is important that the egress port carry *no* excess traffic. That means that excessive multicast deliveries are not just wasteful, they can undermine congestion control efforts. Without congestion control a cluster can never achieve high network utilization. In the storage cluster I am working on we rely on the target's being able to control who has permission to send how much bulk data to them. Limiting the bulk data to be below some portion of the link capacity means that deliveries can occur at nearly wire speed. But flooding of packets will kill that. We need precisely tailored multicast groups without the overhead of IGMP/MLD joins being required for each data transfer. BIER gives us a fully scalable solution that does that (we have other solutions until BIER is widely deployed). Anyway, this suggests that datacenter BIER applications get most of the benefit from elimination of excess edge deliveries, while a long-haul BIER application benefits most from eliminating excess core network deliveries. From nobody Wed Oct 7 09:59:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879FD1B2ED9 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:59:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B9clXdaOO-Sy for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A55901B2EED for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:59:33 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-64-5614ef928e45 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 51.AC.32596.29FE4165; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:10:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:59:31 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Caitlin Bestler , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Datacenters and Use Cases Thread-Index: AQHRAR5XJRgy4hYlkkqQ4ki3Sf2SxZ5gQDKg Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 16:59:31 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EADF24A@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <561549FC.1000308@nexenta.com> In-Reply-To: <561549FC.1000308@nexenta.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuO6k9yJhBqemmVssnbGHyeJN3xtW ByaPJUt+MnnsWNjJGsAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXR9eUGa0GzfEXbqqusDYyvJLoYOTkkBEwk Dt08xgRhi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI4CijxKyTbUwQzjJGiYcdj1hAqtgELCQuf3vK3MXIwSEiECLx apIqSFhYQFfi26NpYCUiAnoSTxbtZIKwjSS29fxgBbFZBFQkmuY/BovzCvhKnN11CKxeSEBL 4v3qVkYQm1NAW+Js+0l2EJsR6KDvp9aA1TMLiEvcejIf6lABiSV7zjND2KISLx//Y4WwlSQm LT3HClGvI7Fg9yc2CFtbYtnC18wQewUlTs58wjKBUXQWkrGzkLTMQtIyC0nLAkaWVYwcpcWp ZbnpRgabGIHRcEyCTXcH456XlocYBTgYlXh4H1wWDhNiTSwrrsw9xCjNwaIkzrt/yf1QIYH0 xJLU7NTUgtSi+KLSnNTiQ4xMHJxSDYzSF3kPHPHafuVf2gzDmMfOvzY/XNz0Vl3258tZ3Paa 35YsnbLb0uDgXKv7GzZfExU0vLhT0Zz7zhXHH2wVbQrszUJ+C+ev0dzatPdy9fEfT/I+vzkl vGmygXHBnuPqFxfaXbY4YX1I65PpdMnPnFH15tu/zot1ynDZ5xhre+NdcYlRVdpel5WblViK MxINtZiLihMBmRF+gGcCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Datacenters and Use Cases X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 16:59:35 -0000 Ok, as cat-herder trying to find home for good ideas; best suggestion would= be to write a use case in the draft you commented on, or not ?=20 Then the hat trick is of course to find a molten-sand-square vendor willing= to pour that into the next gen of their ware ... ;-) thanks for your comments, Caitlin --- tony=20 There are basically two types of people. People who accomplish things, and = people who claim to have accomplished things. The first group is less crowd= ed. ~~~ Mark Twain > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Caitlin Bestler > Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 9:36 AM > To: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] Datacenters and Use Cases >=20 > An interesting side conversation started as the result of my prior email = on the > use-case document. > I'd like to capture some of the more pertinent thoughts about usage of BI= ER in > datacenters. >=20 > First, I have a storage cluster application which will map to BIER almost > perfectly. The sending nodes pick a set of receivers for each chunk trans= fer. > Being able to specify those targets with a bitmap fits the application's = needs > almost perfectly. >=20 > I am also convinced that there are many HPC applications where this will = be > true. However we have not yet gotten their attention to find out precisel= y what > forms of addressing would be most useful to those applications. >=20 > There is also a major difference between multicasting in a cluster and > multicasting over the Internet. >=20 > Eliminating delivery to BFERs that do not need a given datagram is critic= al for > long-haul networks. > Sending a datagram miles (or hundreds of miles) and then brillilantly fig= uring out > that it did not need to be delivered the remaining five feet isn't optimi= zing things > much. >=20 > But for the clusters I'm designing a storage application for that is prec= isely the > case (although the distance between the racks is probably measured in yar= ds > rather than miles). >=20 > Basically it is fairly common to design a "non-blocking core", that is a = set of > switches which can deliver all the traffic from all of the ingress ports = to any set > of egress ports as long as the aggregate traffic to any egress port does = not > exceed that capacity. It is as though the core is a single 1024 port non-= blocking > switch. Provisioning one is simply a matter of allocating sufficient inte= rnal links. >=20 > But in any distributed application there is always the potential that 6 d= ifferent > senders will want to send to the same destination concurrently. In order = to > manage that traffic it is important that the egress port carry *no* exces= s traffic. >=20 > That means that excessive multicast deliveries are not just wasteful, the= y can > undermine congestion control efforts. Without congestion control a cluste= r can > never achieve high network utilization. > In the storage cluster I am working on we rely on the target's being able= to > control who has permission to send how much bulk data to them. Limiting t= he > bulk data to be below some portion of the link capacity means that delive= ries > can occur at nearly wire speed. But flooding of packets will kill that. > We need precisely tailored multicast groups without the overhead of IGMP/= MLD > joins being required for each data transfer. BIER gives us a fully scalab= le solution > that does that (we have other solutions until BIER is widely deployed). >=20 > Anyway, this suggests that datacenter BIER applications get most of the b= enefit > from elimination of excess edge deliveries, while a long-haul BIER applic= ation > benefits most from eliminating excess core network deliveries. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Oct 7 15:10:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F35C31B29C3 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 15:10:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDth2MxUatgM for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 15:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 263B21B29C2 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 15:10:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7670; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444255837; x=1445465437; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=iYR+FJXw5yoVtTE7wp9hdvTs2WLluqzRx9kCzZHsKYQ=; b=TWxt3/L5lRn9ctT4kVe0UayQTd2TXaBOco++kQwL3SKtpaEf063yJjtH /pcv+ZoRvXf0zqZvNRB8XtLwj+SyGjdNDhx5OhijRupDlSv7dGDi4aTEp 5WH5yeoDzofnKXPAV8FnGSru8xwPWtbf4CtVGSG/0IPs/RIqPvgjeqB3E A=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,651,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="195386226" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Oct 2015 22:10:36 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t97MAaoX030175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Oct 2015 22:10:36 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t97MAZ6g001228; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 15:10:35 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t97MAZgP001227; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 15:10:35 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 15:10:35 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric C Rosen , Neale Ranns Message-ID: <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 22:10:40 -0000 Hmm... no good explanation why this mail slipped by me answering until Greg kicked my back. Sorry for that (only lame explanations *sigh*). I think Neal alreay sent some responses to you..., adding to those. On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 02:49:17PM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > According to the draft: > > Currently, BIER-TE does not support BIER-sub-domains and it does not > not use BFR-id. BIER-TE headers use the same format as BIER headers > (BFR-id is set to 0) > > If the BFIR-id field in the BIER header is set to 0, it is impossible > for the BIER payload to be an MPLS packet whose label stack begins with > an upstream-assigned label. That's because the BFIR-id provides the > context in which the upstream-assigned label is interpreted. > > Is that the intention? That would seem to mean that BIER-TE cannot be > used to support MVPN. No, this was definitely not the intention. The author who wrote this (me) wanted to explain that the BFIR-ID is not required for BIER-TE forwarding itself (it is required for BIER forwarding if i am not mistaken), and incorrectly wrote "does not support". And i did not come to think of the benefit/need of BFIR-ID for the context of upstream assigned inner labels. Thats actually quite nice. A lot easier than non-BIER MPLS solutions if i remember those correctly. Neal mentioned also that not assigning a BFIR-ID can help to save bitspace, which is true in BIER, but if we only use BIER-TE forwarding, it would not even cost bits. So, how about the following text suggestion: | BIER-TE forwarding does not require/use the BFIR-ID. The BFIR-ID can | still be useful though for coordinated BFIR/BFER functions, such as | the context for upstream assigned labels for MPLS payloads in MVPN | over BIER-TE. | | If the BIER-TE domain is also running BIER, then the BFIR-ID in | BIER-TE packets can be set to the same BFIR-ID as used with BIER | packets. | | If the BIER-TE domain is not running full BIER or does not | want to reduce the need to allocate bits in BIER bierstrings for | BFIR-ID values, then the allocation of BFIR-ID values in BIER-TE packets can | be done through other mechanisms outside the scope of this document, | as long as this is appropraitely agreed upon between all BFIR/BFER. If you don't think there is sufficient benefit to keep the door open to NOT leverage normal BIER assignment procedures for BFIR-ID, then i could just drop the third paragraph.. ? > From section 3.2.4: > > A "local_decap" adjacency passes a copy of the payload of the BIER-TE > packet to the packets NextProto within the BFR (IPv4/IPv6, > Ethernet,...). > > These local_decap adjacencies sound an awful lot like BFER-ids. Don't > you need one for each BFER? So the BitString has to have a bit for each > BFER and a bit for each link that is along the path to any of the BFERs? > Wouldn't this require that the number of BFERs be much less than the > number of bits in the BitString? I could not find BFER-ID term being used anyplace other than draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-00.xml, so i would not venture to guess what its semantics is - any pointer i overlooked ? How many bits do you need for TE ? Thats the key question. Obviously, you can't get traffic-engineering for free, so you will require more bits for the same network as with BIER. Which is why the BIER-TE draft has already some optimizations where TE bits are used more efficiently, and there are more possible. Section 4.3 explain how Leaf BFER effectively require no bit (sorry typo: 4.3:s/BFIR/BFER/, done for -02). Eg: just one bit per link to leafs, and one shared (local decap) bit for all leafs in the network. Likewise rings require also only one bit per node (local decap), and a single shared bit for the ring (Section 4.6) (or even for multiple rings). So, maybe as a simple rule of thumb for this first round of bit optimizations: One Bit per BFER, and one bit for every link without a BFER on it. And those last-hop links are commonly > 50% of links (could probably calculate from stats like average ingres:egress #interfaces, path-length and the like). Any suggestion if/what should be added to the draft about this ? > From section 4.9 of the draft: > > In a large network, multiple BIFT may be necessary, each one > identified by a different SI value in the BIER header. > > Well, the only BIER encapsulation referenced by the draft is the MPLS > encapsulation, which does not have an SI value in the BIER header. > Probably you need to point out in section 3.3 that the MPLS label needs > to be associated with an SI, and modify section 4.9 to say that the SI > is inferred from the label. Ack: | To support larger networks, multiple bitstrings may be required/beneficial. | This specification utilizes multiple SI (Set Identifiers) to support this. | A BIER-TE packets Set Identifier can either be derived from the context of the BIER-TE | packet encapsulation, or it can be part of a particular encapsulations BIER-TE header. | MPLS BIER encapsulation does not include an SI field in the BIER header, | so the SI needs to be associated with an MPLS label. Eg: for 10 SI in BIER-TE, | 10 MPLS labels must be assigned to BIER-TE. > Even so, I don't really understand how this would work. In ordinary > BIER, the bits identify the BFERs. If for a particular packet you have > more BFERs than bits, you can always make two packets, and send each one > to (say) half of the BFERs. In BFR-TE, the bits identify the links over > which the packet must flow. If a particular packet has to flow over > more links than can fit into the BitString, you can't just make two > packets, and have each one traverse half the links. I think this needs > a bit more explanation. As in: How do i minimize the duplication of bit assignments for intermediate links in the bitstrings of different SI ? I think thats where a good controllers logic comes into play, or a good operators ID/SI assignments - and certainly ideas from folks looking more at this. The most simple logic is to segment your network into non-overlapping areas, assign an SI to each area, and effectively unicast a copy from the BFIR to the desired entry points in each of the areas. Unicasting eg: via Routed Adjacencies. If the segments are non-overlapping, you could even get away without routed-adjacencies at all: The ingres BFR directly maps from the non-BIER side lookup result into a list of adjacencies, each of which has an IGP label to the segments BFIR, followed by that segments BIER-TE label (SI 0), followed by the appropriate BIER-header for that network segment. > Perhaps it is sub-domains rather than SIs that are needed here. One > could in theory have a sub-domain for each flow, and in that sub-domain > you'd only have to assign bit positions needed for that flow. It seems > like it might be challenging though to figure out the least number of > sub-domains you actually need for a given set of flows. I guess i don't really confused about the difference between sub-domain and SI from the arch document and under which circumstances one is better than another. Any suggestions welcome. > BTW, the references need updating. Am i missing references, or where the numbers of the drafts references too old, even for the time when i ran the xml2rfc ? Thanks a lot for the review! Toerless > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Thu Oct 8 00:13:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786F81B324D for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 00:13:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxiSspeE4_Hu for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 00:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39CBE1B324C for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 00:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ioiz6 with SMTP id z6so48342012ioi.2 for ; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 00:13:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wRdwbA09kg//mA/aqVYMsa4B0ww+h7AOkZ2vTf/Rgr8=; b=Falapvy9wKW0O2F62vsdkuq/DGs++CIIO3RScxMkT74hB8H36YrGUBK1fBf9zXnJXR JL2bNeqHrvKak1PL1tcqAaaHimqfld1nEODV1vYZhGq3P8c8wdTriU1WCQ5tp/Rce7RY iVvk1cQdb6vjLAEtvbXpHeTWE8qPnZGqOiBgogIpcuspDsyQxbl1vLDeP+mQUWXxiSvF R1InFYcljF4/XCQ/BL0hyBwjPGnC5cXKa98kHSuSxTTyMsvUrz6CVlcEKtlkgMWrdSlY jYYabJcIp+tzMrWNaORAutREnb1Nm9jBMpBjGPEn1rWnIBNHV/fUK77IeMraQygy3nMC 5ugg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.16.158 with SMTP id 30mr6825603ioq.50.1444288383585; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 00:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.27.195 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 00:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 00:13:03 -0700 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ed8d80e93cc0521929806 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Slot requests for Yokohama ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 07:13:05 -0000 --001a113ed8d80e93cc0521929806 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We requested a slot in Yokohama for BIER so we'd encourage presentation time slot requests @ this point in time ... thanks -- tony --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --001a113ed8d80e93cc0521929806 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We requested a slot in Yokohama for BIER so we'd encou= rage presentation time slot requests @ this point in time ...=C2=A0
thanks=C2=A0

-- tony=C2=A0

--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million k= eyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to th= e Internet, we know that is not true.
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
--001a113ed8d80e93cc0521929806-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 12:15:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA551AC3DC for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:15:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZA2bkJ61ath5 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 982EF1AC3E1 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:15:11 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-e4-561654ae0568 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id BB.23.26730.EA456165; 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Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:26:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_66=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DfB2Qa337JqQ for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CEB51B2A76 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:26:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9223; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444357565; x=1445567165; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=83tpYIQl195chpj8WsiFFvItW6ZTndtj2a9EbwUSuFo=; b=JoN4CGJ5GpHrcyoFdj2yA/kXN0ieTkDqtzeNLyjY5XXn367r+tt+k5Jh I7a790u/N3WiRCXrxclU8QrC7ywiIfrdS49uCB4NdJGCIAxfGYUyX0pst Ui9QByrszYYxZaRRBWvZne9mK4v9DGqINnGgFzmtgAs+cPWkLctsO/wyC w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,657,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="35884284" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2015 02:26:04 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t992Q3aA023703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 9 Oct 2015 02:26:03 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t992Q3QT032659; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:26:03 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t992Q2UX032658; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:26:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:26:02 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric C Rosen , Neale Ranns Message-ID: <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 02:26:14 -0000 Eric/*: To add to the thread. Talking with Ice today, he thinks that it would be a lot more logical to only use sub-domains as the logical concept to enable multiple bitstrings for BIER-TE. And not SI. I hope i am correctly restating his explanations and expand on it: The SI in BIER is automatically assigned from BFR-ID which is split into loewr-bits = index into bitstring, and SI = which bitstring. In BIER-TE we do not use BFR-ID for forwarding, and we will need to "engineer which bitstring to assign each BFER (or link into it) to. That is also done in BIER with sub-domains. Adding on to this: if we want to reuse in BIER-TE the BFR-ID in the BIER header, eg: in support of the MPLS upstream label context case, that too becomes easier if we do not need to tie the selection of the BIER-TE bitstring set to the BFR-ID - but if we use just sub-domain. If that makes sense, i can accordingly come up with text for the draft. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 03:10:35PM -0700, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Hmm... no good explanation why this mail slipped by me answering until > Greg kicked my back. Sorry for that (only lame explanations *sigh*). > > I think Neal alreay sent some responses to you..., adding to those. > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 02:49:17PM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > > According to the draft: > > > > Currently, BIER-TE does not support BIER-sub-domains and it does not > > not use BFR-id. BIER-TE headers use the same format as BIER headers > > (BFR-id is set to 0) > > > > If the BFIR-id field in the BIER header is set to 0, it is impossible > > for the BIER payload to be an MPLS packet whose label stack begins with > > an upstream-assigned label. That's because the BFIR-id provides the > > context in which the upstream-assigned label is interpreted. > > > > Is that the intention? That would seem to mean that BIER-TE cannot be > > used to support MVPN. > > No, this was definitely not the intention. The author who wrote this > (me) wanted to explain that the BFIR-ID is not required for BIER-TE forwarding > itself (it is required for BIER forwarding if i am not mistaken), > and incorrectly wrote "does not support". > > And i did not come to think of the benefit/need of BFIR-ID for the > context of upstream assigned inner labels. Thats actually quite nice. > A lot easier than non-BIER MPLS solutions if i remember those correctly. > > Neal mentioned also that not assigning a BFIR-ID can help to save bitspace, > which is true in BIER, but if we only use BIER-TE forwarding, it would > not even cost bits. > > So, how about the following text suggestion: > > | BIER-TE forwarding does not require/use the BFIR-ID. The BFIR-ID can > | still be useful though for coordinated BFIR/BFER functions, such as > | the context for upstream assigned labels for MPLS payloads in MVPN > | over BIER-TE. > | > | If the BIER-TE domain is also running BIER, then the BFIR-ID in > | BIER-TE packets can be set to the same BFIR-ID as used with BIER > | packets. > | > | If the BIER-TE domain is not running full BIER or does not > | want to reduce the need to allocate bits in BIER bierstrings for > | BFIR-ID values, then the allocation of BFIR-ID values in BIER-TE packets can > | be done through other mechanisms outside the scope of this document, > | as long as this is appropraitely agreed upon between all BFIR/BFER. > > If you don't think there is sufficient benefit to keep the door open > to NOT leverage normal BIER assignment procedures for BFIR-ID, then > i could just drop the third paragraph.. ? > > > From section 3.2.4: > > > > A "local_decap" adjacency passes a copy of the payload of the BIER-TE > > packet to the packets NextProto within the BFR (IPv4/IPv6, > > Ethernet,...). > > > > These local_decap adjacencies sound an awful lot like BFER-ids. Don't > > you need one for each BFER? So the BitString has to have a bit for each > > BFER and a bit for each link that is along the path to any of the BFERs? > > Wouldn't this require that the number of BFERs be much less than the > > number of bits in the BitString? > > I could not find BFER-ID term being used anyplace other than > draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-00.xml, so i would not venture to > guess what its semantics is - any pointer i overlooked ? > > How many bits do you need for TE ? Thats the key question. Obviously, > you can't get traffic-engineering for free, so you will require more > bits for the same network as with BIER. Which is why the BIER-TE draft > has already some optimizations where TE bits are used more efficiently, > and there are more possible. > > Section 4.3 explain how Leaf BFER effectively require no bit > (sorry typo: 4.3:s/BFIR/BFER/, done for -02). Eg: just one bit per link > to leafs, and one shared (local decap) bit for all leafs in the network. > > Likewise rings require also only one bit per node (local decap), and > a single shared bit for the ring (Section 4.6) (or even for multiple > rings). > > So, maybe as a simple rule of thumb for this first round of bit > optimizations: One Bit per BFER, and one bit for every link without > a BFER on it. And those last-hop links are commonly > 50% of links > (could probably calculate from stats like average ingres:egress #interfaces, > path-length and the like). > > Any suggestion if/what should be added to the draft about this ? > > > From section 4.9 of the draft: > > > > In a large network, multiple BIFT may be necessary, each one > > identified by a different SI value in the BIER header. > > > > Well, the only BIER encapsulation referenced by the draft is the MPLS > > encapsulation, which does not have an SI value in the BIER header. > > Probably you need to point out in section 3.3 that the MPLS label needs > > to be associated with an SI, and modify section 4.9 to say that the SI > > is inferred from the label. > > Ack: > > | To support larger networks, multiple bitstrings may be required/beneficial. > | This specification utilizes multiple SI (Set Identifiers) to support this. > | A BIER-TE packets Set Identifier can either be derived from the context of the BIER-TE > | packet encapsulation, or it can be part of a particular encapsulations BIER-TE header. > | MPLS BIER encapsulation does not include an SI field in the BIER header, > | so the SI needs to be associated with an MPLS label. Eg: for 10 SI in BIER-TE, > | 10 MPLS labels must be assigned to BIER-TE. > > > Even so, I don't really understand how this would work. In ordinary > > BIER, the bits identify the BFERs. If for a particular packet you have > > more BFERs than bits, you can always make two packets, and send each one > > to (say) half of the BFERs. In BFR-TE, the bits identify the links over > > which the packet must flow. If a particular packet has to flow over > > more links than can fit into the BitString, you can't just make two > > packets, and have each one traverse half the links. I think this needs > > a bit more explanation. > > As in: How do i minimize the duplication of bit assignments for intermediate > links in the bitstrings of different SI ? > > I think thats where a good controllers logic comes into play, or a good > operators ID/SI assignments - and certainly ideas from folks looking more > at this. > > The most simple logic is to segment your network into non-overlapping areas, assign > an SI to each area, and effectively unicast a copy from the BFIR to the desired entry > points in each of the areas. Unicasting eg: via Routed Adjacencies. If the > segments are non-overlapping, you could even get away without routed-adjacencies > at all: The ingres BFR directly maps from the non-BIER side lookup result > into a list of adjacencies, each of which has an IGP label to the segments > BFIR, followed by that segments BIER-TE label (SI 0), followed by the > appropriate BIER-header for that network segment. > > > Perhaps it is sub-domains rather than SIs that are needed here. One > > could in theory have a sub-domain for each flow, and in that sub-domain > > you'd only have to assign bit positions needed for that flow. It seems > > like it might be challenging though to figure out the least number of > > sub-domains you actually need for a given set of flows. > > I guess i don't really confused about the difference between sub-domain > and SI from the arch document and under which circumstances one is > better than another. Any suggestions welcome. > > > BTW, the references need updating. > > Am i missing references, or where the numbers of the drafts references > too old, even for the time when i ran the xml2rfc ? > > Thanks a lot for the review! > > Toerless > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Fri Oct 9 09:24:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D6E1B46AA for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:24:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zspRcMUHPIZH for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f42.google.com (mail-pa0-f42.google.com [209.85.220.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 580DB1B46A6 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacex6 with SMTP id ex6so91088865pac.0 for ; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 09:24:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Xy6gBTt4VuvPF0q70dBNW3tiPw/vGCbBY2ESTrORWzg=; b=Ii/b6AoRjm8YlcGLHyQkzr/5NhJ7e/+SAMPFEX0tW89PcmDeWJCV9VykLE1eHNNqaW I1DBejgDcEERq4AScj+qXshpKwyFl0DgOb6XGnFKDeCFN7UP/2jKraTafU/vIZmP6ghz 3muNi/OoDkF27jgeS0HVxA97rmgBVIm6IA89CRMAdfMW2qMXVRxX4rzh1Kjf626ng7SD buWV+owBVotabcfs/owjqD9Tx4T7TO38ch1r0LVeACtT7mFadrnbv6fWCCBg29G7eRSl DG0FCk00CAqkIAF53TjvAyEY9+n62DIWCvKlJjAmUmiiE3EfKkjafHQLLoWYwTlY0JhO Qp7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmsZj1/vWCJIcRNQ8Pkr4i4mp65eZprimZXXTqnfB9FKonzZeyV9WktFlsEMpcWYslhHW9f X-Received: by 10.66.160.34 with SMTP id xh2mr16568955pab.67.1444407893967; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 09:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id vv9sm3257329pbc.95.2015.10.09.09.24.52 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 09 Oct 2015 09:24:52 -0700 (PDT) To: bier@ietf.org References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:24:55 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 16:24:55 -0000 From a usage perspective SIs and sub-domains can be fairly interchangeable. For my storage application I shifted from mapping groups of storage servers from being sub-domains to assigning their IDs so they had the same SI. So I can easily see an argument for eliminating one of them. But why the SI rather than the sub-domain? Is there a summary of their difference from both the implementation and usage perspectives? From nobody Fri Oct 9 11:50:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5214E1B4A21 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id br02c_1AVKKe for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86CAB1B4A20 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:50:26 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-f5-5617ac739421 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 35.C6.32596.47CA7165; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:00:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:50:25 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Caitlin Bestler , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 Thread-Index: AQHQ4PkiRqe3t8i2BEOvSPbOzgHk6p5hGxaAgAHZtACAAOpigP//zw9g Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 18:50:24 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> In-Reply-To: <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt27JGvEwg8ZFIhZLZ+xhsnjT94bV gcljyZKfTB47FnayBjBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGXcWPKDvWCqYMWn2xPZGxg/83YxcnBICJhI XD1Z0MXICWSKSVy4t56ti5GLQ0jgKKPE4fezWSGcZYwSj3oXM4NUsQlYSFz+9pQZpFlEIETi 1SRVEFNYwFbi2y01kAoRATuJd5u/skLYbhLnt/WAdbIIqEi0X/7HAmLzCvhKbH21GGr8ZEaJ xoYnYEWcAtoS3y79ZAKxGYEO+n5qDZjNLCAucevJfCaIQwUkluw5zwxhi0q8fPyPFcJWlNjX P50dol5HYsHuT2wQtrbEsoWvmSEWC0qcnPmEZQKj6CwkY2chaZmFpGUWkpYFjCyrGDlKi1PL ctONDDYxAmPhmASb7g7GPS8tDzEKcDAq8fAukBcPE2JNLCuuzD3EKM3BoiTOu3/J/VAhgfTE ktTs1NSC1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjJW8jmuD7JV71krPkD3yda7nx8fnd0blG7zMuOcw87Xt pyed+u6LZ4lueuTQdjL47sfpaT2CnQ03j3eIsTy93BoU33Zy5b+HTUkGmq8ajit9qBO942O9 58VW7gvbl87esf7Xr8mLWe492M79cUnuA6YlB9S2bbSfs2dP+yJX5aplorGu061Ugj2UWIoz Eg21mIuKEwGg4vrgZgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 18:50:28 -0000 Study the architecture document for distinction between SI and subdomain.=20 SIs are a concept to fit more than BSL of BFERs into a subdomain.=20 A subdomain is something where you map a service on so you achieve separati= on or can separate clusters of receivers from each other. Each subdomain ma= y follow a different topology, carry different type of service, use differe= nt assignment of BFR-ids and with that has a different distribution tree po= ssibly.=20 If you can play tricks with assignments to fit them into same SI, you are b= asically using SIs in a sense as sub-domain. This is maybe OK for you but w= on't work well if you need e.g. service speration in terms of scheduling or= receivers joining/leaving subdomains and want to separate a subdomain from= the impact of another subdomain.=20 BIER is an architecture, not a 'multicast cookbook'. We kept it quite gener= ic to allow for all kind of unexpected applicatons as you have it and give = you simply a box of tools like SI, MT, subdomains to allow for mapping of y= our architectural entities into BIER abstractions to fit your needs ...=20 Thanks=20 --- tony=20 There are basically two types of people. People who accomplish things, and = people who claim to have accomplished things. The first group is less crowd= ed. ~~~ Mark Twain > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Caitlin Bestler > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 9:25 AM > To: bier@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 >=20 > From a usage perspective SIs and sub-domains can be fairly interchangeab= le. > For my storage application I shifted from mapping groups of storage serve= rs > from being sub-domains to assigning their IDs so they had the same SI. >=20 > So I can easily see an argument for eliminating one of them. >=20 > But why the SI rather than the sub-domain? >=20 > Is there a summary of their difference from both the implementation and u= sage > perspectives? >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Fri Oct 9 12:49:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 295921A8795 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 12:49:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KxuEWb_0DHvd for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f52.google.com (mail-pa0-f52.google.com [209.85.220.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C30B71A1B6A for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pabve7 with SMTP id ve7so36419411pab.2 for ; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9dW9P1mJJ5Cr6kw56JhVorUdm0iJ4siQkoEwq8TurKc=; b=ZiJdiKO5bn59lSIUqIgf7euaWWp1stDZUKorag6TvR86tPqLO4Pg3ka7mbW88YBh49 Y4q+9pbuGqI0KPCdefQHyMwJb/K7BkdH7/L8jH+DCBJs0jlhC5LPqhwc5vK206aGcWDa Kb6FHypWZUlLKxprBe6pn8WpCfnYjEdjdjJSIZKpWqlsf2j6bOo74IZjEjRooujElW3g BbmxWrG/Ma+NnBoscF3IyuF58ZMAQrt3LFjMzrqOf9ZgCD/8DV2hhExjrWt296G3Zf68 xvAdCtSqlHFZQxscmeX/gEwlIMMdEWJ2DXzyEu5LvSMlvlkru92bq4Mv64Ani5gNTS7K aH6A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkn+L9jUn8PPuUTbJAH7y0OWcmBIFVQWNk2Ekejisl1JmsZ7ILkHBa8zspiPBCAfUrT4RUN X-Received: by 10.66.119.135 with SMTP id ku7mr17035173pab.21.1444420187455; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id zc4sm4028682pbb.24.2015.10.09.12.49.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 09 Oct 2015 12:49:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 12:49:44 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 19:49:49 -0000 On 10/9/15 11:50 AM, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > Study the architecture document for distinction between SI and subdomain. > > SIs are a concept to fit more than BSL of BFERs into a subdomain. > > A subdomain is something where you map a service on so you achieve separation or can separate clusters of receivers from each other. Each subdomain may follow a different topology, carry different type of service, use different assignment of BFR-ids and with that has a different distribution tree possibly. > > If you can play tricks with assignments to fit them into same SI, you are basically using SIs in a sense as sub-domain. This is maybe OK for you but won't work well if you need e.g. service speration in terms of scheduling or receivers joining/leaving subdomains and want to separate a subdomain from the impact of another subdomain. > > BIER is an architecture, not a 'multicast cookbook'. We kept it quite generic to allow for all kind of unexpected applicatons as you have it and give you simply a box of tools like SI, MT, subdomains to allow for mapping of your architectural entities into BIER abstractions to fit your needs ... > > Thanks > > --- tony > > Studying the architecture document it is apparent that the authors assume that there is some magic sauce associated with the routing underlay associated with each sub-domain. But there is almost nothing mandated about a sub-domain that is different from an SI slice of a sub-domain. The SI slices of one sub-domain must use the same routing underlay. But nothing says that multiple sub-domains cannot use the same routing underlay. The BFR-IDs are unique to the sub-domain, and an SI is a slice of those IDs. But since BFR-IDs are assigned by a mysterious process outside the scope of the document this does not seem terribly relevant unless you need a BIER domain to have more than 2**16 ids. Is there some reason why you could not replace the SI concept with simply have more sub-domains that mapped to the same number of routing underlays? You end up with at most 2**24 BFR-IDs in either case, and the same options for sizing the Bitstring. Were the drafters assuming that a sub-domain was "expensive"? There's nothing in the draft that requires every sub-domain to be a full cost sub-domain with a unique routing underlay. From nobody Fri Oct 9 14:48:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564C51ACE9F for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jhQuT4oJ0W1v for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3A1F1ACEA1 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:48:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1986; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444427332; x=1445636932; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=D+X4m1IJ8W8KsVKiqX+MuzMHSip4Zmec2FkjkH4qIoA=; b=MVqW+vVVHzwF2GdG9NP+VGgCEvV4m9UfL/SkSZapxD5lppypkadPrsNi UEpinGBzsSYWSjc4lMAtz+AS42DG0O4Zrbq2JvZUyEIAQoAvMp0+xIQp4 bneARVyPFXSuEu3AxJv3XK/0G3WKJFg/J/vOmPyhqo4l3FJWhR0BkAsyn g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BKAgAQNhhW/4sNJK1egyaqRAEBAQEBAQUBgQ2TSgENgVqDE4IKfwKBSTgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCcBAQMBI1YFCwsSCAImAgJJDgaIOQiwB5QPAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4EihQqCV4JuhFozB4JpMYEUBY4DiA+NGokTkmwfAQFChCIeiB0BAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,659,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="36255286" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2015 21:48:24 +0000 Received: from [10.154.212.207] ([10.154.212.207]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t99LmM3v017365 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:48:24 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:48:22 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <66F3BDC8-D724-4A07-B95B-8A61129767E9@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> To: Caitlin Bestler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 21:48:57 -0000 Hi Caitlin, > Studying the architecture document it is apparent that the authors = assume that there is some magic sauce > associated with the routing underlay associated with each sub-domain. = But there is almost nothing mandated > about a sub-domain that is different from an SI slice of a sub-domain. >=20 > The SI slices of one sub-domain must use the same routing underlay. = But nothing says that multiple sub-domains > cannot use the same routing underlay. The double =E2=80=98not' is a little confusing, but I think what you are = saying is that multiple sub-domain=E2=80=99s are allowed to map to a = single underlay, which is correct and the intention of the draft to = allow that. You can also assigned a different underlay for each = sub-domain. As Tony explained, SI is an automatic mechanism for when the = BFR-id overspills, and we create a new SI for it. The sub-domain is = something that the network operator can configure to implement specific = services. >=20 > The BFR-IDs are unique to the sub-domain, and an SI is a slice of = those IDs. But since BFR-IDs are assigned by a > mysterious process outside the scope of the document this does not = seem terribly relevant unless you need a > BIER domain to have more than 2**16 ids. >=20 > Is there some reason why you could not replace the SI concept with = simply have more sub-domains that mapped > to the same number of routing underlays? >=20 > You end up with at most 2**24 BFR-IDs in either case, and the same = options for sizing the Bitstring. >=20 > Were the drafters assuming that a sub-domain was "expensive"? There's = nothing in the draft that requires every > sub-domain to be a full cost sub-domain with a unique routing = underlay. A sub-domain is expensive in the sense that you need to allocate a new = label(range) for it, advertise it through the network using the IGP and = it will provision a new BIFT in all the BIER routers.=20 Thx, Ice. From nobody Fri Oct 9 15:06:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9EEB1B4DAC for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qTCYoVYf7qRL for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f43.google.com (mail-pa0-f43.google.com [209.85.220.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C1951B4DAB for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by padhy16 with SMTP id hy16so97434221pad.1 for ; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5ftc7qMO3xoH/4z3K/tf+k685P6UBWxKOEUGAvdhcG0=; b=VfHomnLV2t/rC+qMjbMt2fjVTUhuPRKkC3QelociwvKsetXeV4tstoCkIFVIl+qgCE AWPxvDEPjmf7vbtIUv51ElFbpdh0vPZmP3pld+2pa102cOf/jGjhFnZctFOTJH4TlGPp C6AZy7yoVDM3bEKr7Q2dSTlzeStC4G5sN8L4wMruIcBCyjct+sZ48SGpwjt83Gjrz875 m3Si3dpClI9dm+atk02WOkANBTTcTs/Q2kzJcLuUAc3e+yX233t9rcfK+I/tg9exyQK0 hEQjGjMppmXN/Y/RHrzXdj/J0ThPgeaBk9logu1GJsDVo903W153IA0l3aATj9qy2jsC 05Pw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm3GMOI/mSU2tOdQE1YFF5OTYXF/lJjy4PA8UAMsoMtkAqrEH97V5wUaUAf8yeSo4DtVGky X-Received: by 10.68.131.6 with SMTP id oi6mr17978903pbb.3.1444428402032; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id dg2sm4397946pbb.9.2015.10.09.15.06.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:06:40 -0700 (PDT) To: IJsbrand Wijnands References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <66F3BDC8-D724-4A07-B95B-8A61129767E9@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <56183A6B.30209@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:06:35 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66F3BDC8-D724-4A07-B95B-8A61129767E9@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 22:06:43 -0000 On 10/9/15 2:48 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Hi Caitlin, > >> Studying the architecture document it is apparent that the authors assume that there is some magic sauce >> associated with the routing underlay associated with each sub-domain. But there is almost nothing mandated >> about a sub-domain that is different from an SI slice of a sub-domain. >> >> The SI slices of one sub-domain must use the same routing underlay. But nothing says that multiple sub-domains >> cannot use the same routing underlay. > The double ‘not' is a little confusing, but I think what you are saying is that multiple sub-domain’s are allowed to map to a single underlay, which is correct and the intention of the draft to allow that. You can also assigned a different underlay for each sub-domain. As Tony explained, SI is an automatic mechanism for when the BFR-id overspills, and we create a new SI for it. The sub-domain is something that the network operator can configure to implement specific services. > >> The BFR-IDs are unique to the sub-domain, and an SI is a slice of those IDs. But since BFR-IDs are assigned by a >> mysterious process outside the scope of the document this does not seem terribly relevant unless you need a >> BIER domain to have more than 2**16 ids. >> >> Is there some reason why you could not replace the SI concept with simply have more sub-domains that mapped >> to the same number of routing underlays? >> >> You end up with at most 2**24 BFR-IDs in either case, and the same options for sizing the Bitstring. >> >> Were the drafters assuming that a sub-domain was "expensive"? There's nothing in the draft that requires every >> sub-domain to be a full cost sub-domain with a unique routing underlay. > A sub-domain is expensive in the sense that you need to allocate a new label(range) for it, advertise it through the network using the IGP and it will provision a new BIFT in all the BIER routers. > > Thx, > > Ice. > If there a N BFR-IDs total in the BIER domain, why is it more expensive to break them into 2x sub-domains as opposed to X sub-domains that are each twice as large? If there are 2x routing underlays then clearly things would be more expensive, but what expense is there in having an additional sub-domain rather than an additional SI slice? From nobody Fri Oct 9 15:26:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565A71B4DDE for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G6oH1y--iPyW for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A1101B4DDC for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:26:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=494; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444429573; x=1445639173; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vPD8PNoxxbjnfEs/VDUWO1b7iww1EHauUMvO3pEMAKg=; b=MUQuTkyllL2fj3xkNM+Rsv37+zWnB4z2/CqbtLF9Wf0//I2V62EsnTvD eA2Xmu3EBCcIlLl7ZPkcsEw/lDtiUpQdL7k3Mljxo1C9Bk+2tEuSE2ahu 6t7GaBLzA6dl3PaF0lX9xlkg7NKe+HMKMNoSFmRjJ/IjSp5zoAzD9bTsr A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BJAgBZPhhW/4sNJK1egyaqRAEBAQEBAQUBgQ2TSgENgVqDE4IKfwKBSTgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCcBAQMBOj8FCwtGVwaIOQjEGwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReGLIJXgm6EWjMHgxqBFAEEjgOID40aiROSbB8BAUKEIh6IHQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,660,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="34311952" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2015 22:26:12 +0000 Received: from [10.154.212.207] ([10.154.212.207]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t99MQAAr015385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:26:11 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <56183A6B.30209@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:26:10 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <474003DB-6651-4F4F-9DC8-2B0CF9A29A9A@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <66F3BDC8-D724-4A07-B95B-8A61129767E9@cisco.com> <56183A6B.30209@nexenta.com> To: Caitlin Bestler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 22:26:14 -0000 Caitlin, > If there a N BFR-IDs total in the BIER domain, why is it more = expensive to break them into 2x sub-domains as opposed > to X sub-domains that are each twice as large? Not sure what you mean here... >=20 > If there are 2x routing underlays then clearly things would be more = expensive, but what expense is there in having > an additional sub-domain rather than an additional SI slice? A SI is as expensive as a sub-domain, there is no difference. Thx, Ice.= From nobody Fri Oct 9 15:44:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CDB1B4DF3 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4JpvIdwNBwly for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f54.google.com (mail-pa0-f54.google.com [209.85.220.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 159A21B4DF1 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacex6 with SMTP id ex6so98576521pac.0 for ; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:44:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+gFM/sBxMEHogeI4MuZf7QEYL3KcXgpX65RZ/Wxmc78=; b=GhDP1CNuJxLSzqLenGh2btmwSS5dG8HNHt30plOIOoyHNKAwCGObY/zNpuNcjvx0aj boKmMbFy441W6oQbsQMzgsD4tl2SDh3sYcKjHw4Lp/yD2cB7T4e4jhMnCWlyCADLHD98 6S6sV4WV/5NePJ30Bp87NcekE4X1iUyEJAcJX2Lz9u3lwWU8DNPoISLAew2A5wppjuVg HgTJ1b5HigRE5ezbwarQvsKwgVjpi4CXhJv4nPIY8kOMUM6Lrhbu7BVvPA7do1yJxfF5 1lmC6+du8IaoiCsusKCRYoy62irkOqKIhtcxWa2gOF3yydCUxTpbrb9vveafnq0kEpHN IcAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkggKwXZAJfmpTm1f1cLTVLso5n6ygQFlb8tktvH9dBWiyHeNCXl8+G/pKqisC6h2eTpeUQ X-Received: by 10.68.93.194 with SMTP id cw2mr18193087pbb.36.1444430680638; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id rb8sm4414792pbb.63.2015.10.09.15.44.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:44:38 -0700 (PDT) To: IJsbrand Wijnands References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <66F3BDC8-D724-4A07-B95B-8A61129767E9@cisco.com> <56183A6B.30209@nexenta.com> <474003DB-6651-4F4F-9DC8-2B0CF9A29A9A@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <56184355.7040504@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:44:37 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <474003DB-6651-4F4F-9DC8-2B0CF9A29A9A@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 22:44:46 -0000 On 10/9/15 3:26 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Caitlin, > >> If there a N BFR-IDs total in the BIER domain, why is it more expensive to break them into 2x sub-domains as opposed >> to X sub-domains that are each twice as large? > Not sure what you mean here.. If there are 5000 BFRs you need 5000 rules, no matter how many sub-domains you divide them over. >> If there are 2x routing underlays then clearly things would be more expensive, but what expense is there in having >> an additional sub-domain rather than an additional SI slice? > A SI is as expensive as a sub-domain, there is no difference. > > Thx, > > Ice. Exactly. If there is no real difference then why have both concepts in the interface? From nobody Fri Oct 9 15:55:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2585F1B4E0B for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:55:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iyNTvWUd9bPB for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C5201B4E0A for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:55:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=204; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444431312; x=1445640912; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=OsRguHi4hGDqRJdG0QBgc/DX/j3G0cNh8tTO/Sinwps=; b=Z4b6UrDDpAOcx26QrVTDbK+UmyuM7OavEijYZ7Ez30LwKNObeAN8JSHs 7CqYZtFfpi2tL0iYgV6fod5EouRk8wZHzRxaL5BiMiQkdsxbdkSbwp1nA /blT4Pj546V1qI1bspaXejBrwVrmYMfOewi8kQ2h8f0M6dAAaOK+hHdYQ o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CsAgBRRRhW/4gNJK1egyaqSgUBgQ2TSgENgVqDE4IKfwKBQTgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCcBAQMBeQULC0ZXBog5CMQOAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4YsgleCboRaMweDGoEUAQSOA4gPjRqJE5JsHwEBQoQiHogdAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,660,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="196556313" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Oct 2015 22:55:11 +0000 Received: from [10.154.212.207] ([10.154.212.207]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t99Mt9q5030822 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:55:11 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <56184355.7040504@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:55:09 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4721D3A8-1FA5-42DF-B75D-92312D1F9539@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <66F3BDC8-D724-4A07-B95B-8A61129767E9@cisco.com> <56183A6B.30209@nexenta.com> <474003DB-6651-4F4F-9DC8-2B0CF9A29A9A@cisco.com> <56184355.7040504@nexenta.com> To: Caitlin Bestler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 22:55:13 -0000 Caitlin, > If there is no real difference then why have both concepts in the = interface? There is a big difference in how the SI and Sub-domain are used, = deployed and managed! Thx, Ice. From nobody Fri Oct 9 21:45:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC6F1B5682 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:45:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eNn118qnPTCE for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A153E1B567F for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-7c-56182bdfe49c Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D3.A2.26730.FDB28165; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 23:04:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 00:45:53 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Caitlin Bestler Thread-Topic: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 Thread-Index: AQHQ4PkiRqe3t8i2BEOvSPbOzgHk6p5hGxaAgAHZtACAAOpigP//zw9ggABqKgCAACEmAIAABReAgAAFeACAAAUogIAAAvGAgAAdkuA= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 04:45:52 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE136A@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <66F3BDC8-D724-4A07-B95B-8A61129767E9@cisco.com> <56183A6B.30209@nexenta.com> <474003DB-6651-4F4F-9DC8-2B0CF9A29A9A@cisco.com> <56184355.7040504@nexenta.com> <4721D3A8-1FA5-42DF-B75D-92312D1F9539@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4721D3A8-1FA5-42DF-B75D-92312D1F9539@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt+59bYkwg3lNihZLZ+xhsnjT94bV 4tWcO8wOzB5Tfm9k9Viy5CeTx46FnawBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGXueT2Qr2MBZ8aPpNWMD 4yb2LkYODgkBE4k3E4y6GDmBTDGJC/fWs3UxcnEICRxllDjROpcdwlnOKHG6+xwTSBWbgIXE 5W9PmUGaRQTCJN416YGEmQWUJT5vnsQEEhYWsJX4dksNJCwiYCfxbvNXVgi7TOLHWZCRnBws AqoSN4+9ZgOxeQV8JZ7P7YNadZFZ4ujuY2CrOIHmHL21DqyIEei476fWMEHsEpe49WQ+E8TR AhJL9pxnhrBFJV4+/scKYStJTFp6jhWiXkdiwe5PbBC2tsSyha+ZIRYLSpyc+YRlAqPYLCRj ZyFpmYWkZRaSlgWMLKsYOUqLU8ty040MNzEC4+aYBJvjDsYFnywPMQpwMCrx8C5gkAgTYk0s K67MPcQozcGiJM47b8b9UCGB9MSS1OzU1ILUovii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2MvBV5zKscJqbm/Pwt 8WOetVzz0Yf2D/nMvvfofD2a6Wj++nvh1PyoTdzqjQFLBaYttw3s2e75YkMkh5RSw5ySLMPj k+5oXMj7OZfrr2hdVWMji/912+bcjoJXW2QqWmMc97wvKZ9med/74b7JP+5se1RjbGLjtdTm ZEn8miNcT7Mr781LZ4tVYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAj7nEfHwCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 04:45:57 -0000 >=20 > Caitlin, >=20 > > If there is no real difference then why have both concepts in the inter= face? >=20 > There is a big difference in how the SI and Sub-domain are used, deployed= and > managed! [Tony saiz:] in very short, do not run subdomains until you start to reali= ze the restrictions of the SI ;-) To +1 Ice: * SI is an _automatic_ mechanism that allows to deploy more than BSL BFRs.= If you have a single service, are happy with possibly sparse allocation p= attern with lots of packets due to SI replication and do not need fancy stu= ff like restricing links allowing to carry the multicast, it's all you need * if you're a carrier deploying multiple overlays, services, needing to sep= arate the way BFR-ids are assigned in SIs, need fairness across multiple mu= lticast services, VPN SLAs, separation between data carried on same label f= or security purposes and other jazzy stuff customers shell $$$ for, you'll = find subdomains intriguing and if you run gear by few serious vendors suppo= rting MT IGPs, doubly so ...=20 In short, if in DC, SIs is probably all you need and subdomain #0, MT #0 wi= ll serve your needs ...=20 -- tony=20 From nobody Mon Oct 12 11:34:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDDF1B2B0C for ; 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Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:34:27 +0000 To: Toerless Eckert , Neale Ranns References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> From: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <561BFD2C.8090708@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:34:20 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.14] X-ClientProxiedBy: DM3PR12CA0002.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (25.164.12.140) To BN3PR0501MB1090.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.113.12) X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; BN3PR0501MB1090; 2:VQbPKVfXxXcSqHJRk2P35hHZfE6Ouhh6FrnKDkwZP50T7+W5VfxCwgVuGvxWbEkRSqvjABPqoCgJVOJaMai1xip2AL7JQg/FYOwlxDRkQu08Dno9vYRlr1kETZ95OpBVkWFShptf14mULY9UFvFtr1L7MTQIcBcih7OgqcHHJNE=; 3:v4hlznAfphrb7PJHtAy3z33+73AzWf2PC0kgoQvRrZ7BmbM84ZK4NxPxPH7bsO8sq/A0LDHUIuSegaeE/YWA83c81UYjd9+vQR16j77U6Odz3Z4/Cowt8yFY7iatcMZqdnnIGfLhNXlWj3MT1gmZ5w==; 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BN3PR0501MB1090; 5:WN6iyGfzNm0QmJU2/o89Zevp4itPgR6PoqVPZrVr3ncxKar4HP/ab7EOdYQxmA6L2BA233yNEnwp8apzNv1O/CyWWXMKm5cWiHGkFO9KY7eRcmwhcvepDay+tE2EqQzkQIUMAv+TJGQl6ciwL9CxfQ==; 24:AGY+sA8hA+u7QiwLu4tqyQGPIZiINKyYYL/GGxlorKvsILmZL611MA0HjVP0mzcILlKA7YgnV8Ys4WarbjHTettzNppCszG/IlfvEDOmJ7Q=; 20:L20cAHE7LppIGMXTM+XayBlY8w5R0gx875M9YKufenNlH58C67oukQDLbga5pnMifUdWxV4kB/l/xiNVpL6kqQ== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2015 18:34:27.0505 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0501MB1090 Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:34:37 -0000 Toerless, Neale, Thanks for your interesting responses. I am still inclined to say that this proposal needs more baking before it is ready for WG adoption. > [Toerless] The author who wrote this (me) wanted to explain that the > BFIR-ID is not required for BIER-TE forwarding itself (it is > required for BIER forwarding if i am not mistaken), and incorrectly > wrote "does not support". I don't think the BFIR-id is needed for BIER forwarding, it's only needed if the multicast flow layer at the BFERs needs to do some sort of RPF check. I don't think BIER and BIER-TE are different in this respect. > [Neale] The intent was to reduce the number of bit-positions needed > in the network by not requiring the BFIR to have one. The draft > should therefore instead state that the BFIR-ID MAY not be set in > the packet, and if not, then there are the consequences that you > have identified. > [Toerless] Neale mentioned also that not assigning a BFIR-ID can > help to save bitspace, which is true in BIER, but if we only use > BIER-TE forwarding, it would not even cost bits. Right, in BIER-TE forwarding the BFIR-id doesn't require a bit in the BitString, so eliminating the BFIR-id doesn't really seem to provide much value. > [Toerless] I could not find BFER-ID term being used anyplace other > than draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-00.xml, so i would not venture > to guess what its semantics is - any pointer i overlooked ? A BFER-id is just the BFR-id of a BFER. Similarly, a BFIR-id is just the BFR-id of a BFIR. With regard to the issue of not having enough bits to represent the entire multicast distribution tree ... > [Neale] Since the data is not distributed throughout the domain, it > does not need to be unique within the domain. By "it", do you mean the bit position that represents a particular link? Or do you mean the BFIR-id? Note that BFR-ids are already unique only relative to a sub-domain. > [Neale] So, one might also consider applying the same BFIR-id to a Same BFR-id? > group of BFERs that belong to the topology. If that bit-position is > then set in the packet, then it is received by all BFERs that the > packet reaches, and that is determined by which other bits are set in > the BitString. Since in TE BIER a packet cannot reach BFER if the > BitString does not describe a path to it. > [Toerless] Section 4.3 explain how Leaf BFER effectively require no > bit (sorry typo: 4.3:s/BFIR/BFER/, done for -02). Eg: just one bit > per link to leafs, and one shared (local decap) bit for all leafs in > the network. I didn't really understand this. How does a node know whether it is a leaf (a BFER) for a particular packet? Doesn't this mean that every BFR through which a packet passes is going to have to figure out whether it is supposed to be a BFER for that packet? I'd like to see the details of how that would work. BTW, however it works, it will probably require knowing the BFIR-id, unless that can be inferred from the sub-domain that is implicitly identified by the BIER-MPLS label. (Consider, e.g., a case where a given flow is traveling on two different TE trees, perhaps from different BFIRs, but a given transit node is on both trees.) > [Toerless] The most simple logic is to segment your network into > non-overlapping areas, assign an SI to each area, and effectively > unicast a copy from the BFIR to the desired entry points in each of > the areas. Unicasting eg: via Routed Adjacencies. Assuming we replace "SI" with "sub-domain", is this the same as Neale's suggestion: > [Neale] perhaps one could consider one or more uni-directional > BIER-TE sub-domains rooted at each BFIR. Each individually signalled > sub-domain comprises a sub-set of the BFERs (and the links to > traverse to them) that the BFIR needs to address. Flows can then map > onto one or more of these sub-domains. This scheme keeps the number > of sub-domains scaling with network size (as with SPF-BIER sets), > rather than number of flows. So each sub-domain would be a sub-tree of the tree from a given BFIR. You unicast-tunnel a packet to the root of a sub-domain, and then let BIER distribute the packet down the sub-tree. The number of sub-domains is then proportional to the number of BFIRs (which is still a lot of sub-domains), and each transit node would have to determine for each packet whether it needs to consume that packet or just pass it along. Part of the BFER processing would be to figure out for each packet (a) am I supposed to receive this packet and (b) did I receive it from the sub-domain over which I'm expecting it? It seems like there are a lot of details to be added, and some of them might be dependent upon the multicast flow layer. > [Toerless] Am i missing references, or where the numbers of the > drafts references too old, even for the time when i ran the xml2rfc? The references are to the old individual documents rather than to the WG documents. > [Toerless] rings require also only one bit per node (local decap), > and a single shared bit for the ring (Section 4.6) (or even for > multiple rings). I don't quite understand from section 4.6 why a given packet will not revolve around the ring forever, as the "ring bit" only seems to get reset when the packet leaves the ring. Also, if the "ring bit" gets reset when a packet leaves the ring, how do you use one bit for multiple rings? Perhaps I've misunderstood something. Eric From nobody Mon Oct 12 12:17:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C8AD1B357B for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:17:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5BRKn5RNFhwZ for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0129.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 649C01B3585 for ; 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BN3PR0501MB1090; 5:Tdl3TQW1XgkpkdOrsO1zvcpGptpwCYe4lgpzN7lWNUA0333UqYK8oRV0YmyCdmPtDwGal0UZ1t924tLlr8K5+/ga1vGdMmOKvEFIdoEx5WdA6gJGdECEdZFoEP4pySrg6Exvl3/yKeYcCOcmsO5P1Q==; 24:wdNRaDv6zKK0v7CLkaghhMJQH1uAOntrrcXn5YobaMtAPsE7OScgZqig9QnTRlGx7RNoCQ8mvlKN/7kLlJgmXiJ9Z6hL2OlO46dvpsVe8wk=; 20:+U4cI+nq+M0Cy9cqNtHYjBhyzmQ9+Rqg3WXFFF+at9ycS+pd3CI3wF6lZ0ymXQ6VXnA4xajmiY/W7JDtdek4+g== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2015 19:17:08.2010 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0501MB1090 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:17:24 -0000 On 10/9/2015 3:49 PM, Caitlin Bestler wrote: > Is there some reason why you could not replace the SI concept with > simply have more sub-domains that mapped > to the same number of routing underlays? In addition to what Ice and Tony have said, here's one way to think about it. A particular application/service at a particular BFIR would be provisioned to send a certain class of flows in a certain sub-domain. The set of BFERs to which a given flow is to be sent would generally not be provisioned, but would be learned dynamically. So the application/service tells BIER "here's a packet; send it on this sub-domain to this set of BFERs", where the set of BFERs is identified as a set of IP addresses (BFR-prefixes). BIER maps the sub-domain and the set of BFR-prefixes to a set of BFR-ids. If the set of BFR-ids cannot fit into a single BitString, the SI method is used to automatically create several packets. This would all become rather more complicated if you had to use multiple sub-domains to reach a given set of BFERs, as the application/service would now have to know which sub-domain to use for each BFER. Further, when a packet reaches a BFER, the BFER may need to figure out the BFR-prefix corresponding to the BFIR (this is necessary, e.g., for the MVPN application). If the BFIR-id and the BFER-id were not from the same sub-domain, this would be difficult to do -- the packet would have to carry information allowing one to identify both the source sub-domain and the destination sub-domain. But the architecture doesn't even have a notion of "source" and "destination" sub-domains. Of course, it might be possible to rewrite the architecture to eliminate the SIs and replace them with sub-domains. But since that would only make the architecture more complicated, it doesn't seem like a very good direction to pursue. From nobody Mon Oct 12 13:38:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB491B3629 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4YXRLKWwtY3q for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 568801B3636 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-63-561bba2d433e Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2D.16.32596.D2ABB165; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:48:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:38:42 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Eric C Rosen , Caitlin Bestler , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 Thread-Index: AQHQ4PkiRqe3t8i2BEOvSPbOzgHk6p5hGxaAgAHZtACAAOpigP//zw9ggABqKgCABK3cAP//zJ9g Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:38:42 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE2235@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <561C072E.9050305@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <561C072E.9050305@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrHLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuK7uLukwg4ftOhZLZ+xhsnjT94bV Yt2GD8wOzB5Llvxk8rjedJXdY8fCTtYA5igum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujOZVq5gK1otW9H8/xdzA 2CPYxcjJISFgInHm+Ak2CFtM4sK99UA2F4eQwFFGibcrrrJCOMsZJXon/2AGqWITsJC4/O0p kM3BISJQLjH9nxCIKSxgK/HtlhpIhYiAncS7zV9ZIewoibt9D5lAbBYBVYktd7azgNi8Ar4S t9Z8YoEYP51JYvu7+WDjOQW0Jf6d+scIYjMCHfT91BqwZmYBcYlbT+YzQRwqILFkz3lmCFtU 4uXjf6wQtpLEpKXnWCHqdSQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZYrGgxMmZT1gmMIrOQjJ2FpKWWUhaZiFp WcDIsoqRo7Q4tSw33chgEyMwQo5JsOnuYNzz0vIQowAHoxIPb0K2VJgQa2JZcWXuIUZpDhYl cd79S+6HCgmkJ5akZqemFqQWxReV5qQWH2Jk4uCUamDsfPctStLk2zfv1YYe7PtKMtNW/mIo FfgqLTzr9RuLR/8EQj12Jnu6L4tkmXx80ZRTZbmTV23w3/5RbH6ruuNP3rXf9YzOTXE5dlz6 0hOmJz/Utgk/uey77hGXxoW3rBJnDMx3sDAcEtX++jVNxbVcQ7E9bMPBK9tCtX4kvE63dCt9 bz6tI/+IEktxRqKhFnNRcSIAnBxovXECAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:38:47 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net] > Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 12:17 PM > To: Caitlin Bestler; Antoni Przygienda; bier@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 >=20 > On 10/9/2015 3:49 PM, Caitlin Bestler wrote: > > Is there some reason why you could not replace the SI concept with > > simply have more sub-domains that mapped to the same number of routing > > underlays? >=20 > In addition to what Ice and Tony have said, here's one way to think about= it. >=20 > A particular application/service at a particular BFIR would be provisione= d to send > a certain class of flows in a certain sub-domain. > The set of BFERs to which a given flow is to be sent would generally not = be > provisioned, but would be learned dynamically. >=20 > So the application/service tells BIER "here's a packet; send it on this s= ub-domain > to this set of BFERs", where the set of BFERs is identified as a set of I= P addresses > (BFR-prefixes). BIER maps the sub-domain and the set of BFR-prefixes to = a set > of BFR-ids. If the set of BFR-ids cannot fit into a single BitString, th= e SI method > is used to automatically create several packets. >=20 > This would all become rather more complicated if you had to use multiple = sub- > domains to reach a given set of BFERs, as the application/service would n= ow > have to know which sub-domain to use for each BFER. >=20 > Further, when a packet reaches a BFER, the BFER may need to figure out th= e > BFR-prefix corresponding to the BFIR (this is necessary, e.g., for the MV= PN > application). If the BFIR-id and the BFER-id were not from the same sub- > domain, this would be difficult to do -- the packet would have to carry > information allowing one to identify both the source sub-domain and the > destination sub-domain. But the architecture doesn't even have a notion = of > "source" and "destination" sub-domains. >=20 > Of course, it might be possible to rewrite the architecture to eliminate = the SIs > and replace them with sub-domains. But since that would only make the > architecture more complicated, it doesn't seem like a very good direction= to > pursue. [Tony saiz:] I would whole-heartedly agree here. Sub-domains are really h= ere to=20 separate bigger-grain concepts like services or different router sets runni= ng BIER,=20 think source/destination ports in a sense.=20 Orthogonally, SI gives a transparent solution to the fact that we can't rea= listically=20 carry 32KB receiver bitmasks in each packet, in a sense equivalent to IP=20 fragmentation solving the problem of limited media MTU.=20 --- tony=20 From nobody Mon Oct 12 13:45:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4D31B363E for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:45:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r_wZ96el5ZoB for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f47.google.com (mail-pa0-f47.google.com [209.85.220.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96C7C1B363C for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacex6 with SMTP id ex6so8838701pac.3 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xluAzKOyKxM45mwatTNCL6ZLW3RZdeUEUcPEiYOjoJA=; b=Qdj25VeTBL7AfA9aMGUbREjAmMZBBYRsYENSyaBuknxjlbEsm7IvEePi2Y2Cga7yKI mBi0bKJ63qmXZrmHjbPjN2+1yCqa86+IXtDSPjTeTwVTAgi2qTrs1penkEdWsIaF/+78 BQj0ZXSjh9Dowpc1dEkLNar8eeuDgLfFzYh7htc7+nQdo/X5lVdYuYUX0Io8sIKWxRvP 6xYCL0s3yuL1zg8l/9crOGVOCWUM9hMcEWJyBGW2t6TO/b0Pma6lCfeaqC70KKfbVS77 Tgt0pmHPtCetSZpqjV3WnJq/1PEKbqQZNn8KE50sDaZXvi1vX9hubVlNisFnUw0I37tW jtAg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnqGEHJkA7vBABKy8bCjmt36ZKfzp8yZ5I6/fyEzKiuQ8UHWhSvfgYQKjk8cA6y03sJG7i2 X-Received: by 10.68.129.231 with SMTP id nz7mr36107715pbb.53.1444682744267; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id yi8sm20098667pab.22.2015.10.12.13.45.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:45:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Antoni Przygienda , Eric C Rosen , "bier@ietf.org" References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <561C072E.9050305@juniper.net> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE2235@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <561C1C01.4020401@nexenta.com> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:45:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE2235@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:45:45 -0000 On 10/12/15 1:38 PM, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > [Tony saiz:] I would whole-heartedly agree here. Sub-domains are really here to > separate bigger-grain concepts like services or different router sets running BIER, > think source/destination ports in a sense. > Orthogonally, SI gives a transparent solution to the fact that we can't realistically > carry 32KB receiver bitmasks in each packet, in a sense equivalent to IP > fragmentation solving the problem of limited media MTU. > > --- tony The issue is that you are complicating the user interface to BIER for the benefit of an implementation detail that you are not describing in the architecture, and I believe is officially not-in-scope. Would it be appropriate to add language to the effect that each Sub-Domain SHOULD/MAY map to a different routing underlay? > From nobody Mon Oct 12 13:55:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EB41B367E for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mr3fZEOJtk6H for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FC051B367C for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-85-561bbe2a0c11 Received: from EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.96]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D4.C6.32596.A2EBB165; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:05:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.96]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:55:43 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Caitlin Bestler , Eric C Rosen , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 Thread-Index: AQHQ4PkiRqe3t8i2BEOvSPbOzgHk6p5hGxaAgAHZtACAAOpigP//zw9ggABqKgCABK3cAP//zJ9ggABMNID//70fMA== Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:55:42 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE22C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <561C072E.9050305@juniper.net> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE2235@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <561C1C01.4020401@nexenta.com> In-Reply-To: <561C1C01.4020401@nexenta.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrHLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPgq7WPukwgwv/RC2WztjDZPGm7w2r xboNH5gdmD2WLPnJ5HG96Sq7x46FnawBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGT17NrAU3BSsOLZ0DlMD 4wS+LkZODgkBE4l55z6xQdhiEhfurQeyuTiEBI4ySmy5/40ZwlnOKLF1VS87SBWbgIXE5W9P mUFsEYFyieNtd4A6ODiEBWwlvt1SgwjbSbzb/JUVws6SONO/mwXEZhFQlZh46xMTiM0r4Ctx +sIadoj5f5gkmpo3sYPM4RTQlngwrRCkhhHooO+n1oDVMwuIS9x6Mp8J4lABiSV7zjND2KIS Lx//Y4WwlSQmLT3HClGvI7FgN8RjzEAjly18zQyxV1Di5MwnLBMYRWchGTsLScssJC2zkLQs YGRZxchRWpxalptuZLCJERghxyTYdHcw7nlpeYhRgINRiYc3IVsqTIg1say4MvcQozQHi5I4 7/4l90OFBNITS1KzU1MLUovii0pzUosPMTJxcEo1MGqt+PfPQMTUo4dV/vmUmwctAk9oVjrq /uR0n8DrWfdKtVheXetkV+31Dv11F9oXl8cWFom6Bx1f5J56rUVLdZbxt3eW6kqLnyVN1d4Q JGWkpbDcrPzpvinPlJ6W3Pni0DxLtc4s1GUmv8ytWb6/rDsntpkaLiq6v9Z9ze1j7S5Su8p+ KnGpKrEUZyQaajEXFScCABaevIRxAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:55:46 -0000 >=20 > On 10/12/15 1:38 PM, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > [Tony saiz:] I would whole-heartedly agree here. Sub-domains are > > really here to separate bigger-grain concepts like services or > > different router sets running BIER, think source/destination ports in a= sense. > > Orthogonally, SI gives a transparent solution to the fact that we > > can't realistically carry 32KB receiver bitmasks in each packet, in a > > sense equivalent to IP fragmentation solving the problem of limited me= dia > MTU. > > > > --- tony >=20 > The issue is that you are complicating the user interface to BIER for the= benefit > of an implementation detail that you are not describing in the architectu= re, and I > believe is officially not-in-scope. [Tony saiz:] hmm, both SI and subdomain concepts are explained extensivel= y in the architecture documents.=20 >=20 > Would it be appropriate to add language to the effect that each Sub-Domai= n > SHOULD/MAY map to a different routing underlay? [Tony saiz:] sigh, no, in most generic sense the same routing underlay carr= ies all sub-domains in the normal case.=20 I am tad baffled by your seemingly unique interpretation of the architectur= e @ this point in time. We had tons of people looking @ it by now and no'on= e tried to replace SI with sub-domains or felt that the concepts are the sa= me. I utterly fail to see how the UI towards bier is being complicated given wh= at you need, as I said, if your SDK towards BIER on your platform does not = need MT or sub-domains, just don't expose it and use 0,0 for everything. S= I is hidden in the BIER layer itself. All you need really then is two (thre= e) calls:=20 Socketopt(my_BSL); // set bitstring length if not default=20 recv_on_bier(my_bfer_bit_nr); // you can even skip the bit_nr given you're= a leaf and frame arriving means it's for you as BFER=20 send_to_bier(bfer_dst_bitmask); // that will replicate/SI in the driver the rest is lower layer/driver stuff.=20 all done, forget all the other stuff like overlays/underlays/subdomains/MTs= /BSL translations/unicast tunnels and anything else in the architecture tha= t seems superfluous for your needs ...=20 thanks=20 --- tony=20 From nobody Mon Oct 12 14:20:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5B11B3704 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:20:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10-1Zrj6aRlk for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f49.google.com (mail-pa0-f49.google.com [209.85.220.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13EC81B36FD for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by padhy16 with SMTP id hy16so163345923pad.1 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:20:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Km1Kfna8UrIPxZ4mxNaOirbschtI2IAYmpnO5TVv4qA=; b=GZ91SWhhEewUQPzlxDcyU2e9omDNbzyquCPLGZa9s/Dpt1N/r5su8ollflWtu46wvh 3V4Oy9D3mukPMzgkreQCoTqiLKMQdjJ6Zc9187QHoUvk09HMV+W8GXQyxoAk8fH+lkf/ 1+8650c93HsRefF+uRGYaSAuSStxJ7iMSxTT4GtonO9TTIGyX54CfqDkrKQumNWf8VVu F4FhvbN1NCtEJgNFz3xH/6Oaj27zASr5kStIAYrn4v2nGaMCP3QK/gFnkyctyMRj5skt 0eLm+YHaojsZz5NXkj1qwN9DWhEZsPdMiCiShyK+jjU3d6Md3cJ4Bq19jv3PgTpFVbD6 d60Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkug+6fwshDOXqkGvVtz8NbUNyTypI759gPeCtz0P1KvXLUEzo8k7TNkc5OQn7o/Ta640wB X-Received: by 10.66.121.195 with SMTP id lm3mr37029028pab.84.1444684856694; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id qn5sm20200928pac.41.2015.10.12.14.20.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:20:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Antoni Przygienda , Eric C Rosen , "bier@ietf.org" References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <561C072E.9050305@juniper.net> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE2235@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <561C1C01.4020401@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE22C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <561C2441.6090606@nexenta.com> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:21:05 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE22C5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:20:58 -0000 > [Tony saiz:] sigh, no, in most generic sense the same routing underlay carries all sub-domains in the normal case. > > I am tad baffled by your seemingly unique interpretation of the architecture @ this point in time. We had tons of people looking @ it by now and no'one tried to replace SI with sub-domains or felt that the concepts are the same. > > I utterly fail to see how the UI towards bier is being complicated given what you need, as I said, if your SDK towards BIER on your platform does not need MT or sub-domains, just don't expose it and use 0,0 for everything. SI is hidden in the BIER layer itself. All you need really then is two (three) calls: > > Socketopt(my_BSL); // set bitstring length if not default > recv_on_bier(my_bfer_bit_nr); // you can even skip the bit_nr given you're a leaf and frame arriving means it's for you as BFER > send_to_bier(bfer_dst_bitmask); // that will replicate/SI in the driver > > the rest is lower layer/driver stuff. > > all done, forget all the other stuff like overlays/underlays/subdomains/MTs/BSL translations/unicast tunnels and anything else in the architecture that seems superfluous for your needs ... This is more of an issue of document clarity than a request for an architecture change. My areas of expertise are at the application layer, host stacks, NICs and L2 switching. Viewed through those perspectives there is virtually nothing in the architecture document that explains why a sub-domain exists and what the implications of using a sub-domain vs. the use of an SI-subset are. Section 6.1's discussion of adolescences alludes to a few specifics, but does not present an explanation. As it stands right now the reader is left with "sub-domains and Subnet Identifiers are different because we said so." You can implement with that, because the differences are well explained. But the lack of an inline or even cited rationale is bothersome from the perspective of someone who wants specs to be minimal and self-justifying. > > From nobody Mon Oct 12 17:03:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E612F1B2D0E for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:03:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RdgEW1s5DnVC for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85BE51B2D0A for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:02:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7335; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444694580; x=1445904180; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=ZpW/V4be978fiAkrkSPvyiAucgOF/5CrfVwYSzcXnAE=; b=XE9OR/BB8RE4DPdJA/N//1obk+MJZnya9thbvzgTuiokJC0J084aMHYS ZjtcLsX8+9UT8hBoYXsg3NOnXhKk/IPqOL47l9GTKUcdpD3n7HHt/AaPG da1AI+916SipRobg50PrFDRyTp+wyfdTTy4lOPUYwDPLt8qFmQkULeGEg E=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,675,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="196715772" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Oct 2015 00:02:59 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9D02wIP014672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:02:58 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9D02vBx025273; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:02:57 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t9D02vgG025272; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:02:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:02:57 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <20151013000257.GA13911@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <561BFD2C.8090708@juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <561BFD2C.8090708@juniper.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" , Neale Ranns Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:03:02 -0000 On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 02:34:20PM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > I don't think the BFIR-id is needed for BIER forwarding, it's only > needed if the multicast flow layer at the BFERs needs to do some sort of > RPF check. I don't think BIER and BIER-TE are different in this respect. Indeed. > Right, in BIER-TE forwarding the BFIR-id doesn't require a bit in the > BitString, so eliminating the BFIR-id doesn't really seem to provide > much value. 16 bit header saved. > With regard to the issue of not having enough bits to represent the > entire multicast distribution tree ... Right... > >[Toerless] Section 4.3 explain how Leaf BFER effectively require no > >bit (sorry typo: 4.3:s/BFIR/BFER/, done for -02). Eg: just one bit > >per link to leafs, and one shared (local decap) bit for all leafs in > >the network. > > I didn't really understand this. How does a node know whether it is a > leaf (a BFER) for a particular packet? Doesn't this mean that every BFR > through which a packet passes is going to have to figure out whether it > is supposed to be a BFER for that packet? I'd like to see the details > of how that would work. Conroller determine if BFR is BFER: Is there a service edge using BIER-TE and BFR could be receiver on some of these services ? Ok, you're a BFER. Controller determines what bits are needed to support BFER: Is it even feasible and if so, desirable to send packets into this BFR and have them transit towards another BFR ? No ? Ok, you're a leaf BFER. If BFR is leaf BFER, then controller only assigns bit to the links leading up to the leaf BFER, not the BFER itself. For all non-leaf BFER, controller assigns an individual bit. If there are one or more leaf BFER in network, controller assigns one "shared leaf BFER" bit. Thats set to have local decap entry in all the leaf BFER. It can be shared, because it would only be reset when it passes through some BFR that has it set, and given how all BFR that have it set are leaf BFR, this will not happen. QED. > BTW, however it works, it will probably require > knowing the BFIR-id, unless that can be inferred from the sub-domain > that is implicitly identified by the BIER-MPLS label. (Consider, e.g., > a case where a given flow is traveling on two different TE trees, > perhaps from different BFIRs, but a given transit node is on both trees.) I don't think BFIR-ID plays a role here. [...] > Assuming we replace "SI" with "sub-domain", is this the same as Neale's > suggestion: > > >[Neale] perhaps one could consider one or more uni-directional > >BIER-TE sub-domains rooted at each BFIR. Each individually signalled > >sub-domain comprises a sub-set of the BFERs (and the links to > >traverse to them) that the BFIR needs to address. Flows can then map > >onto one or more of these sub-domains. This scheme keeps the number > >of sub-domains scaling with network size (as with SPF-BIER sets), > >rather than number of flows. Possibly the same, yes. Neal doesn't belabor the unicast/MPLS part "how to get a BIER packet from any BFIR to some remote subdomain" as i do. Not sure if he envisions something different than i or just thinks that piece is obvious. > So each sub-domain would be a sub-tree of the tree from a given BFIR. > You unicast-tunnel a packet to the root of a sub-domain, and then let > BIER distribute the packet down the sub-tree. ^^^^^^ BIER-TE > The number of sub-domains > is then proportional to the number of BFIRs (which is still a lot of > sub-domains), and each transit node would have to determine for each > packet whether it needs to consume that packet or just pass it along. No, not really. Lets run a simple example: 5 country network. 1000 BFER, each country 200 BFER, 3 routers in each country connecting to core. Call them them sub-domain BFIR if you want. Controller allocates one sub-domain per country. Fills up 256 bitstring with in-country BFER and in-country links Aka: lets say all relevant links between sub-domain BFIR and BFER are < 56. Lets look at BFIR service lookup for some IPTV (S,G) on ANY BFIR across the whole network: OIF list of 5 replications, each replication has unicast/MPLS label of one sub-domain BFIR follows by that BFIRs label for the subdomain of interest, followed by the BIER bitstring for the "in-country bits". Scales with number of BFER + number of relevant replication transit hops. In above example, maybe 20% of BFER ??? If you'd try to run this example with BIER instead of BIER-TE and did randomn BFR-ID == SI allocation, you may end up sending more copies across a lot of links. Eg: when you end up with BFR-ID with 2 different SI in a country. So the logic of allocating BFR-ID or sub-domains is really necessary/beneficial almost as much in BIER as in BIER-TE in these type of examples. > Part of the BFER processing would be to figure out for each packet (a) > am I supposed to receive this packet and (b) did I receive it from the > sub-domain over which I'm expecting it? Hmmm... no, can't parse that. knowing which sub-domain a packet is for is like BIER via the label when MPLS encap is done (otherwise it wouldhave to be in the BIER header). Punting to higher layer is just based on having a bit with local decap and as explained above, the controller can intelligently assign this shared for leaf BFERs. > It seems like there are a lot of details to be added, and some of them > might be dependent upon the multicast flow layer. Let me know specifically what piece of explanation you'd like to see. If the above example, maybe with a picture would help, thats easy. > >[Toerless] Am i missing references, or where the numbers of the > >drafts references too old, even for the time when i ran the xml2rfc? > > The references are to the old individual documents rather than to the WG > documents. Arghh... ok. stupid me. I was wondering what xml2rfc wouldn't update automatically. > >[Toerless] rings require also only one bit per node (local decap), > >and a single shared bit for the ring (Section 4.6) (or even for > >multiple rings). > > I don't quite understand from section 4.6 why a given packet will not > revolve around the ring forever, as the "ring bit" only seems to get > reset when the packet leaves the ring. Also, if the "ring bit" gets > reset when a packet leaves the ring, how do you use one bit for multiple > rings? Perhaps I've misunderstood something. "On BFR2, the adjacency also points to the clockwise neighbor BFR1, but without DNR set. " DNR bit is part of the adjacency in the BIFT, so only the copies sent across the ring adjacencies will have it set, and then we do not set DNR towards the end of the ring before it would loop. Multiple rings is just an example. DNR allows you to save bits in bitstring whenever you are fine all BIER-TE traffic is flooded across that sub-topology. Just set up in the BIFTs appropriate adjacencies to flood (loop free) across the topology. Cheers Toerless > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Oct 12 18:16:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2FD1B2EAD for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:16:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4CYC1O7heQ7f for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D971B1B2EAB for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4001; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444698995; x=1445908595; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=gV16sibMJzeT2vUDdPC9yRFQtkY6agL7r8g5FkHtfo8=; b=aAwp4EwfOJEL5bdRCfV8PC7u8JbsKOGHgzJ8jIBBP3LDVITKlMVSR9j5 5MSrgVjHTetYjPQcaq1tNhMraO0waLBT5DnQgB1FRT8mErXKC316gpCfd QaGKUMZEiv66ZIKgvTM7nbcfjVhYb77FsKdBZLWj6gbB2kpFm6mY5lfoD s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CoAgCuWhxW/4cNJK1TCoMmVG6+CgENgVoXCoJyggp/AoE1OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEJwEBBAEBASQTNAsQCxIGCSUPBRMiFBOILg3AKgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEi3GEMF0HgxqBFAWOBIgQjRIInAMfAQFCghEdgXQeM4ZxAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,676,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="197313827" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Oct 2015 01:16:35 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9D1GY8U020697 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 01:16:34 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9D1GYPC029037; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:16:34 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t9D1GXBU029036; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:16:33 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:16:33 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <20151013011633.GB13911@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <20151009022602.GA32419@cisco.com> <5617EA57.4040909@nexenta.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE0D74@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <56181A58.4070500@nexenta.com> <561C072E.9050305@juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <561C072E.9050305@juniper.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda , Caitlin Bestler Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 01:16:38 -0000 If we want to maintain that "easy" way how flow overlay signaling works, then IMHO we'd also need to rely on SI for BIER-TE, or else we'd need to enhance the proposed signaling extensions for eg: IGPs to better support sub-domains. Even in BIER it seems in a larger networks that require BIER with multiple SI, the operator likely would want to allocate BFR-IDs so that he doesn't create unnecessary duplicates [ Eg: 10 edge areas with 200 BFR each. If you allocate a separate SI per area, each area will see one copy for each BIER packet. Allocate BFR-ids randomnly -> up to 10 packets into an area] When you come to think of this, you likely will start allocarting BFR-id across larger networks keeping SI in mind, eg: in buckets of 256 or whatever the bitstring size is. And in each bucket you want to keep some headroom for growths (additional BFER added to area later). The main difference for BIER-TE is that we'd need more unused headroom in the BFR-id space thats not allocated to BFER because we need it in TE for forwarding to intermediate links. Not sure percentage: 20%..30% of bits in bitstring ? I for once could easily see how i could use the BIER BFR-id also for BIER-te if my allocation scheme was keeping enough headroom, eg: plan for initially 51%, longer term not more than 70% of bits in SI for BFR-id, keep the rest for BIER-TE cases. If thats felt to not be appropriate by customer then he likely would need to simply duplicate the BFR-id allocation: one BFR-id in sub-domain 0 for BIER with the target of a very high filling of bits for every SI, and another subdomain for BIER-TE where the BFR-id in that subdomain are allocated with enough headroom for the transit hops. Makes sense ? -- Toerless On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 03:17:02PM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > On 10/9/2015 3:49 PM, Caitlin Bestler wrote: > >Is there some reason why you could not replace the SI concept with > >simply have more sub-domains that mapped > >to the same number of routing underlays? > > In addition to what Ice and Tony have said, here's one way to think > about it. > > A particular application/service at a particular BFIR would be > provisioned to send a certain class of flows in a certain sub-domain. > The set of BFERs to which a given flow is to be sent would generally not > be provisioned, but would be learned dynamically. > > So the application/service tells BIER "here's a packet; send it on this > sub-domain to this set of BFERs", where the set of BFERs is identified > as a set of IP addresses (BFR-prefixes). BIER maps the sub-domain and > the set of BFR-prefixes to a set of BFR-ids. If the set of BFR-ids > cannot fit into a single BitString, the SI method is used to > automatically create several packets. > > This would all become rather more complicated if you had to use multiple > sub-domains to reach a given set of BFERs, as the application/service > would now have to know which sub-domain to use for each BFER. > > Further, when a packet reaches a BFER, the BFER may need to figure out > the BFR-prefix corresponding to the BFIR (this is necessary, e.g., for > the MVPN application). If the BFIR-id and the BFER-id were not from the > same sub-domain, this would be difficult to do -- the packet would have > to carry information allowing one to identify both the source sub-domain > and the destination sub-domain. But the architecture doesn't even have > a notion of "source" and "destination" sub-domains. > > Of course, it might be possible to rewrite the architecture to eliminate > the SIs and replace them with sub-domains. But since that would only > make the architecture more complicated, it doesn't seem like a very good > direction to pursue. > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Mon Oct 12 19:18:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778DE1B2F27 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:18:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fOueqEDbmX0X for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx6.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDE61B2F1F for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.168.119]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTP id 4BE22838D4C5E for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:06:58 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 28F2D1E6DE396 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:18:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id t9D2HmVo080859 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:17:48 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from wang.cui1@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <20151012090330.13037.35251.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20151012090330.13037.35251.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "bier@ietf.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: B2099BC8:C1C40B4A-48257EDD:000BF8CA; type=4; name=$KeepSent 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certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAED21B2F7C; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CCL83625; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:14:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 04:14:32 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.187]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:14:25 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "wang.cui1@zte.com.cn" , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRBV1yBUSUXbtAOUmbyjyhrnGvop5ot7dw Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:14:25 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB36403@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <20151012090330.13037.35251.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.55] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB36403NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Zheng Zhang , fangwei hu , "nvo3@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:14:40 -0000 --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB36403NKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Hi Linda,<= o:p>

 = ;

To form th= e mapping between VXLAN network identifier and bitstring, you could actuall= y use the following two kinds of mappings: 1) the mapping between VNIs and NVEs; 2) the mapping between NVEs and BRF-ids. For the la= tter, there have been corresponding drafts as mentioned in your draft. As f= or the former (i.e., VPN/VN membership auto-discovery), it belongs to the s= cope of NVO3 WG. As for how to extend ISIS/OSPF for VPN/VN membership auto-discovery, there was a related draft = (ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-nvo3-isis-cp-00#page-4). Unfortunate= ly, it seems that the NVo3 WG has no interest in defining ISIS/OSPF based distributed control plane protocol= s up till now.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wang.cui1@zte.com.cn
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:18 AM
To: bier@ietf.org
Cc: Cui Wang; Zheng Zhang; fangwei hu
Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxl= an-use-case-00.txt

 

Dear all,

  A new draft about how to use BIER i= n data centers as well as how to extend IGP/BGP protocol to discovery remot= e NVEs in data centers to form the mapping between VXLAN network identifier and bitstring has been submitted. Wish you can pay attention to this draft and cont= inue the discussion as the te-arch draft :)

  Any comments are welcome:)

Best Wishes,
Linda Wang


internet-drafts@ietf.org =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/12 17:03:30:

> internet-drafts@ietf.o= rg
> 2015/10/12 = 17:03
>
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB
>
> "fangwei hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Cui Wang"
> <wang.cui1@zte.com.cn>, "Fangwei Hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Zheng
> Zhang" <zhang.zh= eng@zte.com.cn>,
>
> =B3=AD=CB=CD
>
> =D6=F7=CC=E2
>
> New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt=
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Cui Wang and posted to the=
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:      draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case
> Revision:   00
> Title:      BIER Use Case in VxLAN
> Document date:   2015-10-11
> Group:      Individual Submission
> Pages:      16
> URL:            <= tt>https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/dr= aft-wang-
> bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-bier= - > vxlan-use-case/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-bi= er-vxlan-use-case-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>    Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architect= ure that
>    provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "= ;BIER domain" without
>    requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multic= ast related per-
>    flow state.  BIER also does not require any expl= icit tree-building
>    protocol for its operation.  A multicast data pa= cket enters a BIER
>    domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router"= (BFIR), and leaves the
>    BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egres= s Routers" (BFERs).
>    The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. &nb= sp;The BIER header
>    contains a bit-string in which each bit represents ex= actly one BFER
>    to forward the packet to.  The set of BFERs to w= hich the multicast
>    packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting = the bits that
>    correspond to those routers in the BIER header.<= br> >
>    This document tries to describe the drawbacks of how = BUM services are
>    deployed in current data centers, and proposes how to= take full
>    advantage of BIER to implement BUM services in data c= enters.
>
>                   &nb= sp;                     &= nbsp;                    =                
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.or= g.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB36403NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Mon Oct 12 22:00:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68F61B3758 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.376 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_BAD_LINEBREAK=0.5, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F5u7tfrVWB3L for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw02.mediatek.com (mailgw02.mediatek.com [69.46.227.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0EA31B3752 for ; Mon, 12 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en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.29.17.249] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EA360A7AB9D90D4B9E9173B6D27C371EE3FA8BCDMTKMBS61N1media_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-10.2.0.3176-8.000.1202-21876.004 X-TM-AS-Result: No--27.000100-8.000000-31 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Archived-At: Cc: Zheng Zhang , fangwei hu Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:00:58 -0000 --_000_EA360A7AB9D90D4B9E9173B6D27C371EE3FA8BCDMTKMBS61N1media_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTGluZGEsDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3Igd3JpdGluZyB1cCB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0LiAgQXMgVnhMQU4v 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Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Zheng Zhang , "bier@ietf.org" , BIER , fangwei hu , "nvo3@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 07:46:18 -0000 --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3650ENKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTGluZGEsDQoNCllvdSBjb3VsZCBwaWdneWJhY2sgdGhlIFZOIGluZm8gb24gdGhlIEJJRVIg aW5mby4gSG93ZXZlciwgaXQgd291bGQgcmVzdWx0IGluIHVubmVjZXNzYXJ5IGRhdGEgcmVkdW5k YW5jeSBzaW5jZSB0aGVyZSBtYXkgYmUgbXVsdGlwbGUgPHN1Yi1kb21haW4sIEJGUi1pZD4gcGFp cnMgZm9yIGEgZ2l2ZW4gQkZSL05WRS4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KWGlhb2h1DQoNCkZyb206 IHdhbmcuY3VpMUB6dGUuY29tLmNuIFttYWlsdG86d2FuZy5jdWkxQHp0ZS5jb20uY25dDQpTZW50 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Hi Linda,<= o:p>

 = ;

You could = piggyback the VN info on the BIER info. However, it would result in unneces= sary data redundancy since there may be multiple <sub-domain, BFR-id> pairs for a given BFR/NVE.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

From: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn [mailto:wang.cui1@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:16 PM
To: Xuxiaohu
Cc: bier@ietf.org; BIER; fangwei hu; nvo3@ietf.org; Zheng Zhang
Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxl= an-use-case-00.txt

 

Hi Xiaohu,

  Thanks very much for your comments = and clarification.

  As mentioned in bier-use-cases, the= re is no doubt that BIER can be used in NVO3 efficiently to steer BUM traff= ic. As the foundation of BIER in NVO3, then extends the BIER control plane to carry VXLAN-specific information to form the mapping betw= een VXLAN network identifier and bitstring. This stands to reason.
 
  On the other hand, you mentioned a = related draft and I read it, I find it is kind of differentiated from my dr= aft. Your draft aims to extend IS-IS to support NVEs auto-discovery, after that, each NVE knows where the other NVEs are, then use ingress repl= ication or other methods to forward the BUM traffic.

  So we still would li= ke to say IGP/BGP extension for VXLAN-specific information together with BI= ER-specific information is an interesting method in NVO3 :)

  Thanks,

Best Wishes,
Linda Wang






Hi Linda,
 
To form the mapping betwee= n VXLAN network identifier and bitstring, you could actually use the follow= ing two kinds of mappings: 1) the mapping between VNIs and NVEs; 2) the mapping between NVEs and BRF-ids. For the latter, there have = been corresponding drafts as mentioned in your draft. As for the former (i.= e., VPN/VN membership auto-discovery), it belongs to the scope of NVO3 WG. = As for how to extend ISIS/OSPF for VPN/VN membership auto-discovery, there was a related draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-nvo3-isis-cp-= 00#page-4). Unfortunately, it seems that the NVo3 WG has no interest in defining ISIS/= OSPF based distributed control plane protocols up till now.
 
Best regards,
Xiaohu
 
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wang.cui1@zte.c= om.cn
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:18 AM
To: bier@ietf.org
Cc: Cui Wang; Zheng Zhang; fangwei hu
Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-= use-case-00.txt
 
Dear all,

 A new draft about how to use BIER in data centers as well as how to e= xtend IGP/BGP protocol to discovery remote NVEs in data centers to form the= mapping between VXLAN network identifier and bitstring has been submitted.= Wish you can pay attention to this draft and continue the discussion as th= e te-arch draft :)

 Any comments are welcome:)

Best Wishes, =
Linda Wang


internet-drafts@ietf.org =D0=B4=D3=DA 2= 015/10/12 17:03:30:

> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> 2015/10/12 17:03
>
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB
>
> "fangwei hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.c= om.cn>= , "Cui Wang"
> <wang.cui1@zte.com.cn>, "Fangwei Hu" = <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Zheng
> Zhang" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>,
>
> =B3=AD=CB=CD
>
> =D6=F7=CC=E2
>
> New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Cui Wang and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:      draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case
> Revision:   00
> Title:      BIER Use Case in VxLAN
> Document date:   2015-10-11
> Group:      Individual Submission
> Pages:      16
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-
> bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-bier-<= /span>
> vxlan-use-case/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use= -case-00<= br> >
>
> Abstract:
>    Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture = that
>    provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIE= R domain" without
>    requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast = related per-
>    flow state.  BIER also does not require any explicit= tree-building
>    protocol for its operation.  A multicast data packet= enters a BIER
>    domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BF= IR), and leaves the
>    BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Ro= uters" (BFERs).
>    The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet.  T= he BIER header
>    contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactl= y one BFER
>    to forward the packet to.  The set of BFERs to which= the multicast
>    packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the = bits that
>    correspond to those routers in the BIER header.
>
>    This document tries to describe the drawbacks of how BUM = services are
>    deployed in current data centers, and proposes how to tak= e full
>    advantage of BIER to implement BUM services in data cente= rs.
>
>                     =                      = ;                     &nb= sp;              
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> The IETF Secretariat
> _______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/bier

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mse01.zte.com.cn t9D89Zsc047961 Archived-At: Cc: "wang.cui1@zte.com.cn" , "bier@ietf.org" , BIER , fangwei hu , "nvo3@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:10:14 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 002CD34648257EDD_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgWGlhb2h1LA0KICAgIElmIGEgZ2l2ZW4gQkZSL05WRSBpcyBpbiBtdWx0aXBsZSBzdWItZG9t YWluLCB0aGVuIHRoZSBpbmZvIHRoYXQgaXMgDQpjYXJyaWVkDQppcyBuZWNlc3NhcnkgSSB0aGlu ay4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KU2FuZHkNCg0KDQpYdXhpYW9odSA8eHV4aWFvaHVAaHVhd2Vp LmNvbT4g0LTT2iAyMDE1LzEwLzEzIDE1OjQ1OjU3Og0KDQo+IEhpIExpbmRhLA0KPiANCj4gWW91 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Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , "nvo3@ietf.org" , "wang.cui1@zte.com.cn" , BIER , fangwei hu , nvo3 Subject: [Bier] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogUmU6IFtudm8zXSAgTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90?= =?gb2312?b?aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC13YW5nLWJpZXItdnhsYW4tdXNlLWNhc2Ut?= =?gb2312?b?MDAudHh0?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:11:02 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 002CEC2F48257EDD_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgWGlhb2h1LA0KICAgIElmIGEgZ2l2ZW4gQkZSL05WRSBpcyBpbiBtdWx0aXBsZSBzdWItZG9t YWluLCB0aGVuIHRoZSBpbmZvIHRoYXQgaXMgDQpjYXJyaWVkDQppcyBuZWNlc3NhcnkgSSB0aGlu ay4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KU2FuZHkNCg0KDQoibnZvMyIgPG52bzMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRm Lm9yZz4g0LTT2iAyMDE1LzEwLzEzIDE1OjQ1OjU3Og0KDQo+IEhpIExpbmRhLA0KPiANCj4gWW91 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[nvo3] [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRBYceOQc5TxMo5UymjTHUYbIeTZ5pBThA//+G5wCAAIyKQA== Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:01:29 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB365A1@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3650E@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.55] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB365A1NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , "nvo3@ietf.org" , "wang.cui1@zte.com.cn" , BIER , fangwei hu , nvo3 Subject: Re: [Bier] [nvo3] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:01:47 -0000 --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB365A1NKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgU2FuZHksDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSBzaG91bGQgYmUgYSBjZXJ0YWluIG1hcHBp bmcgYmV0d2VlbiBWTiBhbmQgc3ViLWRvbWFpbiBpbiBvcmRlciB0byBrZWVwIHJlcGxpY2F0aW9u cyBvZiBhIGdpdmVuIEJVTSBwYWNrZXQgYXMgbGVzcyBhcyBwb3NzaWJsZSAoaS5lLiwgdHJ5IHRv IGFzc2lnbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBzdWItZG9tYWluIElEIHRvIGFsbCBOVkVzIG9mIGEgZ2l2ZW4gVk4p LiBIb3dldmVyLCB3b3VsZG6hr3QgaXQgYmUgYmV0dGVyIHRvIGF0dGFjaCB0aGUgc3ViLWRvbWFp biBpbmZvIHRvIHRoZSBWTiBpbmZvIFRMViBhcyBhIHN1Yi1UTFY/IEluIHRoaXMgd2F5LCB0aGUg YWJvdmUgVk4gaW5mbyBpcyB1c2VmdWwgbm90IG9ubHkgdG8gQklFUiBtb2RlIGJ1dCBhbHNvIHRv IGluZ3Jlc3MgcmVwbGljYXRpb24gbW9kZS4gT2YgY291cnNlLCBpbiB0aGUgaW5ncmVzcyByZXBs aWNhdGlvbiBtb2RlLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBuZWVkIHRvIGF0dGFjaCB0aGUgc3ViLWRvbWFpbiBp 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quoted-printable

Hi Sandy,<= o:p>

 = ;

I agree th= at there should be a certain mapping between VN and sub-domain in order to = keep replications of a given BUM packet as less as possible (i.e., try to assign the same sub-domain ID to all NVEs of a given VN). Ho= wever, wouldn=A1=AFt it be better to attach the sub-domain info to the VN i= nfo TLV as a sub-TLV? In this way, the above VN info is useful not only to = BIER mode but also to ingress replication mode. Of course, in the ingress replication mode, there is no need to atta= ch the sub-domain info to the VN info TLV anymore.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn= ]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:11 PM
To: Xuxiaohu
Cc: bier@ietf.org; BIER; fangwei hu; nvo3@ietf.org; nvo3; wang.cui1@= zte.com.cn
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : Re: [nvo3] [Bier] New Version Notification for= draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt

 


Hi Xiaohu,
    If a given BFR/NVE is in mul= tiple sub-domain, then the info that is carried
is necessary I think.

Best regards,
Sandy


"nvo3" <nvo3-boun= ces@ietf.org> =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/13 15:45:57:

> Hi Linda,
>  
> You could piggyback the VN info on the BIER info. However, it woul= d
> result in unnecessary data redundancy since there may be multiple =
> <sub-domain, BFR-id> pairs for a given BFR/NVE.
>  
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>  
> From: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn= [mailto:wang.cui1@zte.com.cn]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:16 PM
> To: Xuxiaohu
> Cc: bier@ietf.org; BIER; fang= wei hu; nvo3@ietf.org; Zheng Zhang
> Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-<= /tt>
> vxlan-use-case-00.txt
>  
> Hi Xiaohu,
>
>   Thanks very much for your comments and clarification. =
>
>   As mentioned in bier-use-cases, there is no doubt that BIER= can be
> used in NVO3 efficiently to steer BUM traffic. As the foundation o= f
> BIER in NVO3, then extends the BIER control plane to carry VXLAN-<= /tt>
> specific information to form the mapping between VXLAN network
> identifier and bitstring. This stands to reason.
>  
>   On the other hand, you mentioned a related draft and I read= it, I
> find it is kind of differentiated from my draft. Your draft aims t= o
> extend IS-IS to support NVEs auto-discovery, after that, each NVE =
> knows where the other NVEs are, then use ingress replication or
> other methods to forward the BUM traffic.
>
>   So we still would like to say IGP/BGP extension for VXLAN-s= pecific
> information together with BIER-specific information is an > interesting method in NVO3 :)
>
>   Thanks,
>
> Best Wishes,
> Linda Wang
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Linda,
>  
> To form the mapping between VXLAN network identifier and bitstring= ,
> you could actually use the following two kinds of mappings: 1) the=
> mapping between VNIs and NVEs; 2) the mapping between NVEs and BRF= -
> ids. For the latter, there have been corresponding drafts as =
> mentioned in your draft. As for the former (i.e., VPN/VN membershi= p
> auto-discovery), it belongs to the scope of NVO3 WG. As for how to=
> extend ISIS/OSPF for VPN/VN membership auto-discovery, there was a=
> related draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-nvo3-isis-cp-00#p= age-4
> ). Unfortunately, it seems that the NVo3 WG has no interest in
> defining ISIS/OSPF based distributed control plane protocols up ti= ll now.
>  
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>  
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wang.cui1@zte.com.cn
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:18 AM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Cc: Cui Wang; Zheng Zhang; fangwei hu
> Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-<= /tt>
> vxlan-use-case-00.txt
>  
> Dear all,
>
>  A new draft about how to use BIER in data centers as well as= how to
> extend IGP/BGP protocol to discovery remote NVEs in data centers t= o
> form the mapping between VXLAN network identifier and bitstring ha= s
> been submitted. Wish you can pay attention to this draft and =
> continue the discussion as the te-arch draft :)
>
>  Any comments are welcome:)
>
> Best Wishes,
> Linda Wang
>
>
> internet-drafts@ietf.o= rg =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/12 17:03:30:
>
> > internet-drafts@i= etf.org
> > 2015/10/12 17:03
> >
> > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB =
> >
> > "fangwei hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Cui Wang"
> > <wang.cui1@zte.com= .cn>, "Fangwei Hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Zheng
> > Zhang" <zha= ng.zheng@zte.com.cn>,
> >
> > =B3=AD=CB=CD
> >
> > =D6=F7=CC=E2
> >
> > New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-0= 0.txt
> >
> >
> > A new version of I-D, draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Cui Wang and posted to the=
> > IETF repository.
> >
> > Name:      draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case=
> > Revision:   00
> > Title:      BIER Use Case in VxLAN
> > Document date:   2015-10-11
> > Group:      Individual Submission
> > Pages:      16
> > URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet= -drafts/draft-wang-
> > bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt
> > Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-bier-
> > vxlan-use-case/
> > Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-bier-vxlan-
> use-case-00
> >
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an arch= itecture that
> >    provides optimal multicast forwarding through a = "BIER domain" without
> >    requiring intermediate routers to maintain any m= ulticast related per-
> >    flow state.  BIER also does not require any= explicit tree-building
> >    protocol for its operation.  A multicast da= ta packet enters a BIER
> >    domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router&= quot; (BFIR), and leaves the
> >    BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding = Egress Routers" (BFERs).
> >    The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet= .  The BIER header
> >    contains a bit-string in which each bit represen= ts exactly one BFER
> >    to forward the packet to.  The set of BFERs= to which the multicast
> >    packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by set= ting the bits that
> >    correspond to those routers in the BIER header.<= /tt>
> >
> >    This document tries to describe the drawbacks of= how BUM services are
> >    deployed in current data centers, and proposes h= ow to take full
> >    advantage of BIER to implement BUM services in d= ata centers.
> >
> >                  = ;                     &nb= sp;                     &= nbsp;              
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the tim= e of submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ie= tf.org.
> >
> > The IETF Secretariat
> > _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
> _______________________________________________
> nvo3 mailing list
> nvo3@ietf.org
> https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB365A1NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 02:17:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5711A6F9E; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:17:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SOrDX9FhfAvA; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0B1E1A6F9B; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BYT08827; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:17:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:17:36 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.187]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:17:25 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Xuxiaohu , "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" Thread-Topic: Re: [nvo3] [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRBYceOQc5TxMo5UymjTHUYbIeTZ5pBThA//+G5wCAAIyKQIAACD4w Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:17:24 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB365CE@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: 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By the way= , the VN info could be carried as a new sub-TLV of the Extended Prefix TLV = as defined in [I-D.ietf-ospf-prefix-link-attr]) in the OSPF case or a new sub-TLV of the Extended Reachability TLVs in the= ISIS case, or a sub-TLV of the ISIS Route Capability TLV or a TLV of the O= SPF RI LSA.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

From: Xuxiaohu
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 5:01 PM
To: 'zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn'
Cc: bier@ietf.org; BIER; fangwei hu; nvo3@ietf.org; nvo3; wang.cui1@= zte.com.cn
Subject: RE: Re: [nvo3] [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wa= ng-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt

 

Hi Sandy,<= o:p>

 = ;

I agree th= at there should be a certain mapping between VN and sub-domain in order to = keep replications of a given BUM packet as less as possible (i.e., try to assign the same sub-domain ID to all NVEs of a given VN). Ho= wever, wouldn=A1=AFt it be better to attach the sub-domain info to the VN i= nfo TLV as a sub-TLV? In this way, the above VN info is useful not only to = BIER mode but also to ingress replication mode. Of course, in the ingress replication mode, there is no need to atta= ch the sub-domain info to the VN info TLV anymore.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 4:11 PM
To: Xuxiaohu
Cc: bier@ietf.org; BIER; fangwe= i hu; nvo3@ietf.org; nvo3; wang.cui1@= zte.com.cn
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : Re: [nvo3] [Bier] New Version Notification for= draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt

 


Hi Xiaohu,
    If a given BFR/NVE is in mul= tiple sub-domain, then the info that is carried
is necessary I think.

Best regards,
Sandy


"nvo3" <nvo3-boun= ces@ietf.org> =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/13 15:45:57:

> Hi Linda,
>  
> You could piggyback the VN info on the BIER info. However, it woul= d
> result in unnecessary data redundancy since there may be multiple =
> <sub-domain, BFR-id> pairs for a given BFR/NVE.
>  
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>  
> From: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn= [mailto:wang.cui1@zte.com.cn]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:16 PM
> To: Xuxiaohu
> Cc: bier@ietf.org; BIER; fang= wei hu; nvo3@ietf.org; Zheng Zhang
> Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-<= /tt>
> vxlan-use-case-00.txt
>  
> Hi Xiaohu,
>
>   Thanks very much for your comments and clarification. =
>
>   As mentioned in bier-use-cases, there is no doubt that BIER= can be
> used in NVO3 efficiently to steer BUM traffic. As the foundation o= f
> BIER in NVO3, then extends the BIER control plane to carry VXLAN-<= /tt>
> specific information to form the mapping between VXLAN network
> identifier and bitstring. This stands to reason.
>  
>   On the other hand, you mentioned a related draft and I read= it, I
> find it is kind of differentiated from my draft. Your draft aims t= o
> extend IS-IS to support NVEs auto-discovery, after that, each NVE =
> knows where the other NVEs are, then use ingress replication or
> other methods to forward the BUM traffic.
>
>   So we still would like to say IGP/BGP extension for VXLAN-s= pecific
> information together with BIER-specific information is an > interesting method in NVO3 :)
>
>   Thanks,
>
> Best Wishes,
> Linda Wang
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Linda,
>  
> To form the mapping between VXLAN network identifier and bitstring= ,
> you could actually use the following two kinds of mappings: 1) the=
> mapping between VNIs and NVEs; 2) the mapping between NVEs and BRF= -
> ids. For the latter, there have been corresponding drafts as =
> mentioned in your draft. As for the former (i.e., VPN/VN membershi= p
> auto-discovery), it belongs to the scope of NVO3 WG. As for how to=
> extend ISIS/OSPF for VPN/VN membership auto-discovery, there was a=
> related draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-nvo3-isis-cp-00#p= age-4
> ). Unfortunately, it seems that the NVo3 WG has no interest in
> defining ISIS/OSPF based distributed control plane protocols up ti= ll now.
>  
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>  
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wang.cui1@zte.com.cn
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:18 AM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Cc: Cui Wang; Zheng Zhang; fangwei hu
> Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-<= /tt>
> vxlan-use-case-00.txt
>  
> Dear all,
>
>  A new draft about how to use BIER in data centers as well as= how to
> extend IGP/BGP protocol to discovery remote NVEs in data centers t= o
> form the mapping between VXLAN network identifier and bitstring ha= s
> been submitted. Wish you can pay attention to this draft and =
> continue the discussion as the te-arch draft :)
>
>  Any comments are welcome:)
>
> Best Wishes,
> Linda Wang
>
>
> internet-drafts@ietf.o= rg =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/12 17:03:30:
>
> > internet-drafts@i= etf.org
> > 2015/10/12 17:03
> >
> > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB =
> >
> > "fangwei hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Cui Wang"
> > <wang.cui1@zte.com= .cn>, "Fangwei Hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Zheng
> > Zhang" <zha= ng.zheng@zte.com.cn>,
> >
> > =B3=AD=CB=CD
> >
> > =D6=F7=CC=E2
> >
> > New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-0= 0.txt
> >
> >
> > A new version of I-D, draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Cui Wang and posted to the=
> > IETF repository.
> >
> > Name:      draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case=
> > Revision:   00
> > Title:      BIER Use Case in VxLAN
> > Document date:   2015-10-11
> > Group:      Individual Submission
> > Pages:      16
> > URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet= -drafts/draft-wang-
> > bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt
> > Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-bier-
> > vxlan-use-case/
> > Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-bier-vxlan-
> use-case-00
> >
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an arch= itecture that
> >    provides optimal multicast forwarding through a = "BIER domain" without
> >    requiring intermediate routers to maintain any m= ulticast related per-
> >    flow state.  BIER also does not require any= explicit tree-building
> >    protocol for its operation.  A multicast da= ta packet enters a BIER
> >    domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router&= quot; (BFIR), and leaves the
> >    BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding = Egress Routers" (BFERs).
> >    The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet= .  The BIER header
> >    contains a bit-string in which each bit represen= ts exactly one BFER
> >    to forward the packet to.  The set of BFERs= to which the multicast
> >    packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by set= ting the bits that
> >    correspond to those routers in the BIER header.<= /tt>
> >
> >    This document tries to describe the drawbacks of= how BUM services are
> >    deployed in current data centers, and proposes h= ow to take full
> >    advantage of BIER to implement BUM services in d= ata centers.
> >
> >                  = ;                     &nb= sp;                     &= nbsp;              
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the tim= e of submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ie= tf.org.
> >
> > The IETF Secretariat
> > _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
> _______________________________________________
> nvo3 mailing list
> nvo3@ietf.org
> https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB365CENKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 10:37:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576CE1A0076 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:37:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uAAYFkRFKXeh for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACD5F1A004A for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:37:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4427; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444757865; x=1445967465; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mime-version: in-reply-to; bh=b86Z4KUqUhRGEJIHalt9j/vz6Mg8aBsHjHx+ImlMOao=; b=LJKVPdl9wKLuRz8W3+ZiKARs4gNIoRjlCpx2xIrOp6w4AYjLJGQPPnk/ r62QKilm5OABjyCmFr1V0ErRm+XyNsO0Z+G6hiT5FBFmK1Q0guGAJmcd0 UySWe9+DjGziiSaTZpLkx2eWArJpLA5glqRRpr5xLGNMXLHc5DtjFJKtq M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BWAgDEQB1W/4ENJK1egya7M4QiAQ2BWoMTggp/AoFHOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEKAEEHQoTMQ4tBgkaGgU1FC6IE8IoAQEBAQEBAQECAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXkC4BAVAHhC4FjgSIEo0SCIFYjQGJQINvHwEBQoIRHRaBXh6FZIFAAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,679,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="197537481" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Oct 2015 17:37:42 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9DHbeAa007617 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:37:41 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9DHbe8C005688; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:37:40 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t9DHbeA3005687; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:37:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:37:40 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <20151013173739.GX13294@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <561C2441.6090606@nexenta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda , Eric C Rosen Subject: [Bier] DISCUSS? SI vs. sub-domains - draft-ietf-bier-architecture-02 (was: Re: Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:37:47 -0000 On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 02:21:05PM -0700, Caitlin Bestler wrote: > This is more of an issue of document clarity than a request for an > architecture change. > > My areas of expertise are at the application layer, host stacks, NICs > and L2 switching. Viewed through those perspectives > there is virtually nothing in the architecture document that explains > why a sub-domain exists and what the implications of > using a sub-domain vs. the use of an SI-subset are. Section 6.1's > discussion of adolescences alludes to a few specifics, but > does not present an explanation. Caitlin, Q1: I think you are referring to the BIER arch, not just BIER-TE arch, so i changed the mail thread subject. Maybe the BIER arch authorw will comment on your call for more clarity. If you are asking for specific clarity in BIER-TE, pls. let me know. Q2: "adolescences" ? I do not understand. To answer your content question, SI vs sub-domain. -> An application using BIER does not want/need to be bothered with bits in a bitstring. It simply creates BIER sockets(), optionally specifies a sub-domain (other than 0), and the list of BFER BFR-prefixes (IP addresses of receivers) that this socket should send copies to. Sends packets. Andds/removes BFR-prefixes over time if receiver set is changing. Done. (*) How does this magic work ? The most important piece is SIs. SIs allow to have a 16 bit space of BFR-ids that are through routing underlay (eg: IGP) mapped to BFR-prefixes. Why then SI and sub-domains ? Well, network operator will start (IMHO) assigning SI to BFER based on physical network topology. As explained in prior emails for large networks, i think this would not be randomn, but based on geography - split up network into regions, assign BFERs in one region BFR-ids with same SI (as much as possible). Now some app sends out humunguous amount of data and always has eg: < 256 receivers, but they're all in a different region. Bummer: 20 regions, 10 receivers each, but sender needs to send out 10 copies anyhow because of SI allocation. So network operator creates another virtual BIER network... oops: sub-domain. In this subdomain only the potential BFER for this app/user are mapped to BFR-id, and e voila, the app uses this sub-domain, and the traffic in the network is again as efficient as we'd like - only one packet sent to reach all receivers. -> Is this the full answer for your use-case, DC ? Not quite i think. Would be good to discuss more, but i don't see you coming to Yokohama ? Eg: AFAIK, DCs have huge (>> 2^16) VMs. Each user/application will most likely have much less than 2^16 receivers. Creating per-app sub-domains sounds like the obvious starting point. SIs would come into the process automatically, as soon as an applicatin requires more than Bitstringlength possible receivers. BUT: 1. AFAIK, we have not defined for BIER any automated schemes to assign unique BFR-id to receivers. Doing it once for eg: the physcial topology - manually is a well known process for operators (like allocation of loopback addresses). Doing this repeatedly for multiple apps IMHO requires an automated scheme. This would be a good (potentially DC centric) signaling problem to look into. 2. I do not know how many BIFT routers in the future would support. Its definitely important to find solutions that minimize the number of required BIFT. Each BIFT is in-network state, and one of BIERs claim to fame is to reduce state. Of course, even if you had a lot of state with BIER its still better than MPLS/PIM because its not dynamically changing with membership, but we should try to propose (SI,sub-domain) solutions that are as efficient as possible. So,... i don't know enough about your DC targets: Number of overall network-wide possible receivers, number of different app-instances (eg: with different subset of possible receivers),... -> Hope this gives an idea why today i think the framework of (SI,subdomain) is necessary (can't get rid of either without making apps more difficult), but also sufficient (can't think of additionally useful concepts to scale BIER receivers AND create the option for optimized replication). Cheers Toerless From nobody Tue Oct 13 10:48:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CD21A0167 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:48:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3z92SRSs1ZA for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACC8A1A014F for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-2d-561ce3ab9f68 Received: from EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.93]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F3.4B.32596.BA3EC165; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:57:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.93]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:12 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert , Caitlin Bestler Thread-Topic: DISCUSS? SI vs. sub-domains - draft-ietf-bier-architecture-02 (was: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01) Thread-Index: AQHRBd3fmuhIG9PzXUCgUfDMd1zwPZ5psmzg Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:48:11 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE3AD1@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <561C2441.6090606@nexenta.com> <20151013173739.GX13294@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151013173739.GX13294@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPrO6axzJhBgs9LZbO2MNk8abvDavF 3uX32CzWbfjA7MDiMeX3RlaPJUt+Mnlcb7rK7rFjYSdrAEsUl01Kak5mWWqRvl0CV8bGRXkF W1krmqbPYWxgXMjSxcjJISFgItH87RUzhC0mceHeerYuRi4OIYGjjBKPnuxlh3CWM0p8XdEL 1sEmYCFx+dtToA4ODhGBcInuCaIgYWYBN4k/TxYygtQLC3QwSjybcp0RJCEi0MkocW8pM4Rt JDHt5TcmEJtFQFXi7epNbCA2r4CvxO/N38HmCwHZ3S9PgMU5BfQlXm9aBzaHEei676fWMEEs E5e49WQ+E8TVAhJL9pyH+kBU4uXjf6wQtqLEvv7p7BD1OhILdn9ig7C1JZYtfM0MsVdQ4uTM JywTGMVmIRk7C0nLLCQts5C0LGBkWcXIUVqcWpabbmSwiREYS8ck2HR3MO55aXmIUYCDUYmH N0FXJkyINbGsuDL3EKM0B4uSOO/+JfdDhQTSE0tSs1NTC1KL4otKc1KLDzEycXBKNTB2slde Mwjx21RzrIFvTdkPp4zLdTcWChi/e9J8SI3358oSpQ8qnF8l829fYX+02tXcbdbist+nHr8I bFque+GEn2vOUj+miffv85zJbGhLudISuYiv5M5/ZYfPaw8YaEpWes6Y6uToVvXmUqxx0eeZ P06f3T+vgD+tXm8j28P2dUHlRs09O02VWIozEg21mIuKEwHt/uv3hgIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Eric C Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] DISCUSS? SI vs. sub-domains - draft-ietf-bier-architecture-02 (was: Re: Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:48:17 -0000 > 1. AFAIK, we have not defined for BIER any automated schemes to assign > unique > BFR-id to receivers. Doing it once for eg: the physcial topology - man= ually > is a well known process for operators (like allocation of loopback add= resses). > Doing this repeatedly for multiple apps IMHO requires an automated > scheme. This would be a good (potentially DC centric) signaling > problem to look into. [Tony saiz:] look @ =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-prz-bier-bfrid-assignment-00 didn't have time to update, waiting for interest to spike once=20 enough people see far enough to understand the problem. Then I'll reissue.= =20 --- tony=20 From nobody Tue Oct 13 11:37:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565101A6F61 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:37:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0kuUHD8xO1hZ for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B99801A6EF1 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:37:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1973; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444761456; x=1445971056; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version; bh=gUUWxlQiRUZvsqj1VQxflwRcuFZY42Xzvnx/v3GprwY=; b=SrxrN/PECNKgYLdf9LAFYt9M1aglpBmJGLg4pfmu3CpIn2NlKNc47E4y 7kcfdqZRizQyUc4QJAAb8JYH/bGm/8JVzxECicDXzodjwhDntZcHJ47vC KFP7khtjSBpa2Af3aF6iI+opZnx5KR/jTYNpwuRZFFEIfD64YC0Q9Qjv5 A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0DzAQCxTh1W/4ENJK1egya7M4QiAQ2BWoMThFQ4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoRnLU40BYkKnnyjNwsBAQEekR6EFwWOBIgSjRIIjlmNLx8BAUKCDiCBdB6HJAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,679,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="196488884" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Oct 2015 18:37:35 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9DIbYFL016383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:37:35 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9DIbYDq010967 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:37:34 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t9DIbY5u010966 for bier@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:37:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:37:34 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20151013183734.GY13294@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] DISCUSS: suggestions/Q for draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-02 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:37:54 -0000 Couple of comments/Q: Q1. draft-xu-bier-encapsulation vs. draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation Was this meant to be for BIER over non-MPLS, is this still pursued ? C2: draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-02 IMHO, this can perfectly be used to carry BIER over non-MPLS, the first four bits even make it compatible with encaps without next-proto field that only support IPv4/IPv6. All the MPLS header elements are IMHO required for BIER-over-whatever. I don't think this header should be reinvented over and over again in other drafts. If BIER-over-something-else requires ADDITIONAL header elements, eg: MT-ID or the like (as suggested by draft-xu), then these could go into extension headers. Simple way for extension header: Set "Proto" to "extension header N", define that extension header in another draft. C3: The discussion with Caitlin re. BIER in DC brought up IMHO the cool thought of running BIER end-to-end into apps. Today, the MPLS header only support next-proto for "transport services", aka: encap of MPLS, IPv6/IPv6, Ethernet and for OAM. With these options, one would need to run eg: UDP/IP/BIER. IMHO, the IP header, especially IPv6 is fully redundant wastes 60? bytes and creates unnecessary confusion (what addresses to use). The sender/receiver IP addresses are simply the BFR-prefixes that are known from routing underlay without need to be carried in a packet header (BFIR-ID in packet indicates BFIR-prefix). Aka: a) Allocate one code-point for UDP. or: b) allocate a code-point for "IP-transport", and put the 8-bit ip transport protocol into the reserved field. If course, this is just a "would be cool to have". If somebody really wants to implement end-to-end BIER sockets, he could certainly manage to send/receive also a redundant IP header. Cheers Toerless From nobody Tue Oct 13 11:56:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9191A8835 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HKHnIpZ66bMW for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C2611A88D8 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:53:20 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-04-561ce6cd5924 Received: from EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.93]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 8F.0D.26730.DC6EC165; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:11:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.93]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:53:18 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] DISCUSS: suggestions/Q for draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-02 Thread-Index: AQHRBeZS69S6qR3KGkqRi+/iGoMWEZ5pwVZA Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:53:17 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE3CA0@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <20151013183734.GY13294@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151013183734.GY13294@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPrO7ZZzJhBjcbrSyWztjDZLF3+T02 ByaPKb83snosWfKTKYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSvj7Ot7zAUbhSoeHshtYNzL18XIySEhYCLx 7mYjK4QtJnHh3nq2LkYuDiGBo4wSL64+YYZwljNK9N3ZC1bFJmAhcfnbU2YQW0TAXaLn5SQ2 EFtYIEyibekfdoh4uMTUubehaowkJky+ARZnEVCV2PKuhxHE5hXwlZg0+TpYr5CAnsSx3xuB 6jk4OAX0JS680gEJMwId9P3UGiYQm1lAXOLWk/lMEIcKSCzZc54ZwhaVePn4H9QDihL7+qez Q9TrSCzY/YkNwtaWWLbwNTPEWkGJkzOfsExgFJ2FZOwsJC2zkLTMQtKygJFlFSNHaXFqWW66 keEmRmAsHJNgc9zBuOCT5SFGAQ5GJR5eha/SYUKsiWXFlbmHGKU5WJTEeefNuB8qJJCeWJKa nZpakFoUX1Sak1p8iJGJg1OqgbHdc8Iprvh7QReVFumf3N618vLvGTfsTXoiw0wSD+TYGbwz KP1bP1X1eJPdrNQAa+NPHH+T5go++K38XO2unmapps2jfIbm7r0TfsfYtltOFvn0j6m6ZufS hfwWLG7eSfLzzr2Tm/6/+fHMu0d0/N/Hdpxi/Prk8+NL4cGemssOqhQ8C/EPtFJiKc5INNRi LipOBACN/CuiZgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] DISCUSS: suggestions/Q for draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-02 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:56:08 -0000 > C3: The discussion with Caitlin re. BIER in DC brought up IMHO the > cool thought of running BIER end-to-end into apps. >=20 > Today, the MPLS header only support next-proto for "transport service= s", > aka: encap of MPLS, IPv6/IPv6, Ethernet and for OAM. With these > options, one would need to run eg: UDP/IP/BIER. IMHO, the IP > header, especially IPv6 is fully redundant wastes 60? bytes and > creates unnecessary confusion (what addresses to use). The sender/rec= eiver > IP addresses are simply the BFR-prefixes that are known from routing > underlay without need to be carried in a packet header (BFIR-ID > in packet indicates BFIR-prefix). >=20 > Aka: > a) Allocate one code-point for UDP. > or: > b) allocate a code-point for "IP-transport", and put the 8-bit > ip transport protocol into the reserved field. >=20 [Tony saiz:]=20 Intriguing but flattening layers in networking has its own perils and it's = trivial for an application to carry in first byte the protocol-demux (like = UDP) so I don't think it's wise to crowd BIER MPLS header with that. Moreov= er, the advantage of indicating 'IP frame' and then encasing a proper IP UD= P frame is that deep inspection remains possible with all kind of funky stu= ff contrary to every application putting their own internal demux on it.=20 One could surely imagine raw-BIER-sockets and then just grabbing a sub-doma= in per application (which is in fact what is meant by 'service' in the arch= itecture, subdomain is nothing else but a service-access point delineation= in something like CORBA while SI or MPLS labels is simply encapsulation th= at is stripped before the service-access-point boundary is crossed. I hope = I make sense to people not steeped in enterprise architecture patterns). B= ut a user can think of BIER itself as service and use first bytes of the fr= ame for service-access-point demuxing of course. This will happen in a sens= e anyway since the subdomain demux is small (1 byte) given the network is a= ware of it to provide service separation so running each App on its own sub= -domain ain't gonna get far, there will be sub-service-access-points (SSAPs= ) ;-) =20 I didn't even start to think how e.g. mTCP would work with all that. =20 -- tony=20 From nobody Tue Oct 13 12:59:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90CDF1A8A0C for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:59:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sexxxB-e3UA7 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f46.google.com (mail-pa0-f46.google.com [209.85.220.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BE291A8A09 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacex6 with SMTP id ex6so30259582pac.3 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rOcxzoX5I545BUL3v+htoybxYLfZbUYYH/UBGkr5WaE=; b=PmfM0VbahLZ47gre3krYOiYLAmtl1vViHCoyhBfRotwWbU7vJwKKv8KL+RqDiG1glZ AedM/4uzJEPvwrcg3hMTaTrhKk7w5Lu95oYCJ8xmW//nxgofGW2H5MsXvO6iUxjX5vnZ XJCfOSwpjrIAkIFwENALcCp+55Hj8cD6DEinfYQ4SWmqgvtM1KE4edcwBsDpkZGbMbeO kJGK+yuBJJ8XaGtP/kbl+Ivg4RvbAzqKJo7wSJnEZ0kB+7yIkNStL8uwujmGeCzxCMcb gshJ+pqfQDT7kQlsvgDuKX/Va8OQ5xbFrxnFBpyKd8PqLl9Xtrwo430ufBHO58D06ela V1uA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmFR/VAZ+ogvM72hewdLPqO5uFSNG/PPPtNf0dTnsfVXZFSJ1L5U27zwIDzlwUff+igCZJo X-Received: by 10.69.16.166 with SMTP id fx6mr42154765pbd.18.1444766392649; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ss6sm5375060pbc.74.2015.10.13.12.59.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:59:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Toerless Eckert References: <20151013173739.GX13294@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <561D62B6.8010304@nexenta.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:59:50 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151013173739.GX13294@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda , Eric C Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] DISCUSS? SI vs. sub-domains - draft-ietf-bier-architecture-02 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:59:54 -0000 I meant to type "adjacencies". Apologies for not catching the auto-correction. Anyway, from your explanation I think I have a fairly good understanding. The key *intended* difference is that the way sub-domains are *intended* to be used the end nodes would be automatically assigned to the sub-domains based upon the routing underlay. But the architecture document makes it clear that there *may* be multiple sub-domains using the same routing underlay, in which case the assignment of end nodes to sub-domains starts to look a lot like just assigning a BFR-ID. Is there some succinct explanation as to why a deployment SHOULD NOT map multiple sub-domains to a single routing underlay, but they MAY do so for the following reasons... ? If sub-domains SHOULD map to a unique routing underlay while SI-subsets MUST map to the same routing underlay then you have a justifiable distinction. But sub-domains that MAY map to the same or different routing underlays while SI-Subsets MUST map to the same routing underlay as the SI just seems like excessive detail in the API. From nobody Tue Oct 13 13:00:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60111A8A0E for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:00:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dOYNuOS65WMS for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E5CF1A8A0D for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:00:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4097; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444766417; x=1445976017; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=DUI4GNiisedg34jWUBMvrF8dMu0nqPbHOOgCTQDJPfo=; b=Vi62QbhGigUjoOUqwikh2OfJS9I/2ecoQEM6NRCJpN1f0ICcHJHIted4 LvIBlNKa26TDNs5ZCGnVj+AnWtEYHg1uMaqZOodAuk9iHXIFKT3KnAf0C gI0Nj2GF3SVTuW6hdiWL85k/rUli5u7gQbNr/VPHUussok7ZKO34pA9bZ Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D9BABvYR1W/4UNJK1egya7M4YKgxODCQKBSjsRAQEBAQEBAYEKhCYBAQEDATo/BQsLEgYJJQ8FNRSIOQjCWAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReLc4Q0WQeDGoEUBY4EiBKNEgiBWIQ6lXY3LIIOAx2BdB6FW4FJAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,679,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="197763754" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 13 Oct 2015 20:00:16 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9DK0GfP020725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:00:16 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9DK0F1Z016474; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:00:15 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t9DK0FFa016473; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:00:15 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:00:15 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Antoni Przygienda Message-ID: <20151013200015.GA1346@cisco.com> References: <20151013183734.GY13294@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE3CA0@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE3CA0@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DISCUSS: suggestions/Q for draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-02 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:00:19 -0000 Thanks, Tony Inline... On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 06:53:17PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > [Tony saiz:] > Intriguing but flattening layers in networking has its own perils True. The question is really if this would be flattening or avoiding duplication. I'd argue BIER replaces the network IP multicast layer when used end-to-end, so it's not flattening but avoiding duplication. > and it's trivial for an application to carry in first byte the protocol-demux (like UDP) Not sure i understand what you mean to imply with that. Rephrase please ? In both cases (BIER/IP/UDP), (BIER/UDP) there is the UDP header. An application layer API can not be at the layer of just BIER or IP (multicast) (with/without BIER underneat), because neither BIER(MPLS encap), nor IP have an application demultiplexing element. Eg: Try to figure out how multiple independent apps on the same host would use BIER (see below for subdomain) Whether we have BIER/IP/UDP or BIER/UDP doesn't matter. Same issue. > so I don't think it's wise to crowd BIER MPLS header with that. The BIER header would not be crowded with UDP or any other transport layer specifics. I am just arguing that BIER, if it means to replace IP multicast layer also needs to have the normal next-protocol options that IP multicast packets have (or for that matter IP unicast). > Moreover, the advantage of indicating 'IP frame' and then encasing a proper IP UDP frame is that deep inspection remains possible with all kind of funky stuff contrary to every application putting their own internal demux on it. In both cases we have a proper UDP packet (UDP + payload). Keeping a redundant IP header in packets to simplify DPI.... I'd first like to understand a practical use case benefit. I like inspection/analysis of RTP and SPUD, for IP header i don't know a need and worry about bringing in downides: In both the API proposals you and i posted to the list we just spoke of list of receivers, not of multicast groups (or SSM channels). We just need to argue whether apps need to know BFR-ids, or just BFR-prefixes. I'd hate if we'd force the concept of multicast group addressing into BIER application services/APIs (unless desirable for some reason) just because we need to fill some redundant IP header with some destination address. And if there is ANYTHING that DPI could get from a redundant IP header, it's source and destination address. So if we just fill it with some useless group address, then that would even further reduce any DPI benefits of the header. > One could surely imagine raw-BIER-sockets and then just grabbing a sub-domain per application (which is in fact what is meant by 'service' in the architecture, subdomain is nothing else but a service-access point delineation in something like CORBA while SI or MPLS labels is simply encapsulation that is stripped before the service-access-point boundary is crossed. Sure, but an API to raw BIER is not an application layer service but a network layer API into BIER where you'd have to put a transport (layer) services on top of it. > I hope I make sense to people not steeped in enterprise architecture patterns). But a user can think of BIER itself as service and use first bytes of the frame for service-access-point demuxing of course. Which is why i was suggesting UDP as the transport layer service for applications. No need to modify reinvent this unnecessarily. > This will happen in a sense anyway since the subdomain demux is small (1 byte) given the network is aware of it to provide service separation so running each App on its own sub-domain ain't gonna get far, there will be sub-service-access-points (SSAPs) ;-) subdomain is part of the ultimate transport service point address, but as said in before, would like to see how we can ensure efficient / limited use of it to ensure as little BIER space in network as necessary. > I didn't even start to think how e.g. mTCP would work with all that. Whats mTCP ? Cheers Toerless > > -- tony From nobody Tue Oct 13 13:48:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895DB1A8ADE for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c6XqW5OdR9Uq for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f46.google.com (mail-pa0-f46.google.com [209.85.220.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D473A1A8ADA for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pabrc13 with SMTP id rc13so31495871pab.0 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=XEJ5a9MzFScrKRCBo6/ey0JvEweTCFYJIwWrWFF/eEk=; b=hlgqBun3jjwSYipC3ob8w8My2Xo/MK8M1tOKm12txQSkQuPfk9V4UII5/4uPKmnOsy 6wEPugJKS1lz+hU/eniTk6J38EeB3t/YWHH0QNe2vE+MSf0vVoAHhYh/xSj3UvKVAWQb VM1Xbm6cdmb9XIyGrAF7by/h8ybr3C7cEPtY/Wlg9IFErWZ92Ohw53t5plGSIRIetMsp Cbrg2LJ00DMqO+z053ab8IoulwjozsvUeE8g3lG1OxIsR65v81Z+JUQMGfJAfIJFwkR0 mww6539ZWhlu269mkNedw0E/a+kidz2otluSnnmjiRk0Pt8wpNCAqrplx+lM+hXxYolK hzQg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmXN/YzttGXOX7ikzEOrb7r0d2yRprQVzLCSCbb31me9aR+7VSFeS3eofNd6v8J8ou/+SlK X-Received: by 10.66.219.195 with SMTP id pq3mr42300073pac.98.1444769284500; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id xm9sm5514765pbc.32.2015.10.13.13.48.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Toerless Eckert References: <20151013173739.GX13294@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <561D6E01.1070101@nexenta.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:01 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151013173739.GX13294@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040008060508060303040907" Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda , Eric C Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] DISCUSS? SI vs. sub-domains - draft-ietf-bier-architecture-02 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:48:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040008060508060303040907 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/13/15 10:37 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > Is this the full answer for your use-case, DC ? Not quite i think. > Would be good to discuss more, but i don't see you coming to Yokohama ? > > Eg: AFAIK, DCs have huge (>> 2^16) VMs. Each user/application will > most likely have much less than 2^16 receivers. Creating per-app > sub-domains sounds like the obvious starting point. SIs would come > into the process automatically, as soon as an applicatin requires more > than Bitstringlength possible receivers. BUT: > > 1. AFAIK, we have not defined for BIER any automated schemes to assign unique > BFR-id to receivers. Doing it once for eg: the physcial topology - manually > is a well known process for operators (like allocation of loopback addresses). > Doing this repeatedly for multiple apps IMHO requires an automated > scheme. This would be a good (potentially DC centric) signaling > problem to look into. Yes, a typical intra-DC application will map a VLAN or VXLAN to a Bier Domain. The membership in this virtual cluster may be for the duration of a job, or indefinite. But the VLANs/VXLANs will probably be set up by cluster management rather than by hand Further, the desired forwarding path for a given virtual cluster is intended to be very short. It might be longer if you are forced to allocate nodes in a large number of racks, but that is not what the scheduler will be trying to do. That also means you are unlikely to see BIER in datacenters until it is implemented in commodity forwarding chips that are deployed in edge servers. 2-hops with old fashioned multicast groups will beat 4 hops with BIER. We rejected emulating what we wanted switches to do in edge switches for our storage cluster because you can't make the latencies required when you add extra physical hops to your path. --------------040008060508060303040907 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 10/13/15 10:37 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> Is this the full answer for your use-case, DC ? Not quite i think.
   Would be good to discuss more, but i don't see you coming to Yokohama ?

   Eg: AFAIK, DCs have huge (>> 2^16) VMs. Each user/application will
   most likely have much less than 2^16 receivers. Creating per-app
   sub-domains sounds like the obvious starting point. SIs would come
   into the process automatically, as soon as an applicatin requires more
   than Bitstringlength possible receivers. BUT:

   1. AFAIK, we have not defined for BIER any automated schemes to assign unique
   BFR-id to receivers. Doing it once for eg: the physcial topology - manually
   is a well known process for operators (like allocation of loopback addresses).
   Doing this repeatedly for multiple apps IMHO requires an automated
   scheme. This would be a good (potentially DC centric) signaling
   problem to look into.

Yes, a typical intra-DC application will map a VLAN or VXLAN to a Bier Domain.
The membership in this virtual cluster may be for the duration of a job, or
indefinite. But the VLANs/VXLANs will probably be set up by cluster management
rather than by hand

Further, the desired forwarding path for a given virtual cluster is intended to
be very short. It might be longer if you are forced to allocate nodes in a large
number of racks, but that is not what the scheduler will be trying to do.

That also means you are unlikely to see BIER in datacenters until it is implemented
in commodity forwarding chips that are deployed in edge servers. 2-hops with
old fashioned multicast groups will beat 4 hops with BIER.

We rejected emulating what we wanted switches to do in edge switches for our
storage cluster because you can't make the latencies required when you add extra
physical hops to your path.

--------------040008060508060303040907-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 15:10:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E2C1A8FD7 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:10:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9huIgdeiUssA for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1EA91A88C7 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:10:29 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-62-561d1501a4df Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B6.58.26730.1051D165; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 16:28:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:10:28 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DISCUSS: suggestions/Q for draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-02 Thread-Index: AQHRBfHOCDqdqFXdA0amgJyI6LYZrp5p8VKQ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:10:27 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE3F3C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <20151013183734.GY13294@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAE3CA0@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151013200015.GA1346@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151013200015.GA1346@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiC6jqGyYwdyjkhZLZ+xhsti7/B6b A5PHlN8bWT2WLPnJFMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXx/OAt5oItEhUN54saGDcJdzFyckgImEjM u3OUDcIWk7hwbz2QzcUhJHCUUeLVn3XMIAkhgeWMEvMPpYPYbAIWEpe/PQWLiwioSZw92QPW zCygLPF58yQmEFtYIEzixs0eFoiacIn+Ez2sXYwcQLaRxM3LoiBhFgFViVNT54CV8wr4Sry4 85QVYu80RomPPU2sIAlOAT2J20tOg+1iBDru+6k1TBC7xCVuPZnPBHG0gMSSPeeZIWxRiZeP /7FC2EoSk5aeY4Wo15FYsPsT1J3aEssWvmaGWCwocXLmE5YJjGKzkIydhaRlFpKWWUhaFjCy rGLkKC1OLctNNzLcxAiMkWMSbI47GBd8sjzEKMDBqMTDq/BVOkyINbGsuDL3EKM0B4uSOO+8 GfdDhQTSE0tSs1NTC1KL4otKc1KLDzEycXBKNTAuO92nPvvY5gNMv4U/r3gTck8y34dlttLl JCXF7KTOb6GNtxdeLVUtfLFeMzDl15orE8ySFn/iFN2oZ7KPqzFH1isv2VRFasrFgwmL1Xd8 nfG22cNwa/avtvor7gofJU69rzS4de81T20B/wG9k+ckwo4yJsUZb/scWcPFx9fxmn/Zf2/L YiklluKMREMt5qLiRABRE7vJcgIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DISCUSS: suggestions/Q for draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-02 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:10:32 -0000 Cutting points short, no cycles ... inline ...=20 There are basically two types of people. People who accomplish things, and = people who claim to have accomplished things. The first group is less crowd= ed. ~~~ Mark Twain >=20 > In both cases we have a proper UDP packet (UDP + payload). [Tony saiz:]=20 I missed something on quick read then. I thought you're advocating putting= =20 UDP indicating directly into MPLS encaps to shortcut IP headers.=20 >=20 > Keeping a redundant IP header in packets to simplify DPI.... > I'd first like to understand a practical use case benefit. I like inspect= ion/analysis > of RTP and SPUD, for IP header i don't know a need and worry about bringi= ng in > downides: [Tony saiz:]=20 So it looks like you want to cut IP header out. Yes, addresses superfluous = and I=20 Don't see WHY we'd _really_ need an IP header on it (TTL's not needed) _exc= ept_=20 UDP checksum which cannot be calculated if IP is not on it (and otherwise= =20 we don't have one which is dangerous state of affairs).=20 But it's more silicon vendor discussion now. They have large blocks of IP p= rocessing=20 In place with all the csum/ttl magic and once they strip BIER off they will= be probably really lost with a /naked/ UDP and not enough data for checksum. Albeit f= rom little I know about hardware no'one cares for UDP csum these days.=20 >=20 > In both the API proposals you and i posted to the list we just spoke of l= ist of > receivers, not of multicast groups (or SSM channels). > We just need to argue whether apps need to know BFR-ids, or just BFR-pref= ixes. [Tony saiz:]=20 Nope, I agree fully that introducitng need for S/G style multicast addresse= s on packets will be detrimental for BIER. BFR-prefixes or IDs should be the matter of = discourse on the network packets/control only (i.e. within BIER layer). FEC 128/9 or similar which is really just PMSI is needed and BIER overlay c= an work with either group addresses or BFR-prefixes+subdomain.=20 >=20 > I'd hate if we'd force the concept of multicast group addressing into BIE= R > application services/APIs (unless desirable for some reason) just because= we > need to fill some redundant IP header with some destination address. And = if > there is ANYTHING that DPI could get from a redundant IP header, it's sou= rce > and destination address. So if we just fill it with some useless group ad= dress, > then that would even further reduce any DPI benefits of the header. [Tony saiz:] +1 when we talk BIER layer. BIER overlay should be completely free to do whatever they want including simulating S,G obviously.=20 > > I didn't even start to think how e.g. mTCP would work with all that. >=20 > Whats mTCP ? [Tony saiz:]=20 http://www.nesc.ac.uk/events/ahm2004/presentations/50.pdf Varghese did stuff before that even.=20 Some people thought about "what would transport do if we'd have a real larg= e-scale, cheap IP multicast" a while ago already and all of a sudden it cou= ld become warmed up again ...=20 --- tony=20 From nobody Tue Oct 13 23:12:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107EC1B2BB8; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.779 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.779 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fiCkK15teQ2f; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C6B1B2BB7; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 08FFDA5D1A88B; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:12:43 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id t9E67kVv055262; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:07:47 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from wang.cui1@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB365CE@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3650E@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB365CE@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Xuxiaohu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: DAD28E61:599CC79E-48257EDE:0014E228; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:07:46 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-10-14 14:07:27, Serialize complete at 2015-10-14 14:07:27 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0021ACFE48257EDE_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t9E67kVv055262 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , "nvo3@ietf.org" , BIER , fangwei hu , "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" , Xuxiaohu , nvo3 Subject: Re: [Bier] [nvo3] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 06:12:52 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0021ACFE48257EDE_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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24:XWu3+gZwiH6bA1rMmZbYIKLyeL4SzRQcGjah5HHfmlAK9FpDL3lCrnEDIW0Fdm5YVQH4HiENnwHQG9gQbmx5W16p6m1SJaNHbcxNeym/nRU=; 20:NOL/xwtdAyh4pZcXcnQ7T04JbjHp2i8ogdMSTgahFYrSwjregqMS89eYgy/kPyto0F78V9tWbQox+h7URUbZLg== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2015 18:48:43.3401 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0501MB1089 Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" , Neale Ranns Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:48:56 -0000 >> [Eric] in BIER-TE forwarding the BFIR-id doesn't require a bit in the >> BitString, so eliminating the BFIR-id doesn't really seem to provide >> much value. > [Toerless] 16 bit header saved. I think that would count as "not much value" ;-) FWIW, originally the MPLS encapsulation made the BFIR-id an optional field, but then you need a flag bit to say whether it is present, and it just seemed simpler to always include it. > [Toerless] If BFR is leaf BFER, then controller only assigns bit to the > links leading up to the leaf BFER, not the BFER itself. > For all non-leaf BFER, controller assigns an individual bit. Got it, I didn't attend properly to the fact that non-leaf BFERs have their own bits. Maybe I should have said "almost got it" ;-) Under what conditions will a leaf node receive a packet that it doesn't need to consume? That is, what is the significance of failing to set the local_decaps bit? Doesn't this scheme make it difficult to add a new BFER for an existing flow, or to change a non-leaf node from being a non-BFER to being a BFER for an existing flow? > [Toerless] Lets run a simple example: 5 country network. 1000 BFER, each country > 200 BFER, 3 routers in each country connecting to core. Call them > them sub-domain BFIR if you want. Controller allocates > one sub-domain per country. Fills up 256 bitstring with in-country > BFER and in-country links Aka: lets say all relevant links between > sub-domain BFIR and BFER are < 56. > > Lets look at BFIR service lookup for some IPTV (S,G) on ANY BFIR > across the whole network: OIF list of 5 replications, each replication > has unicast/MPLS label of one sub-domain BFIR follows by that BFIRs > label for the subdomain of interest, followed by the BIER bitstring for > the "in-country bits". > > Scales with number of BFER + number of relevant replication > transit hops. In above example, maybe 20% of BFER ??? > > If you'd try to run this example with BIER instead of BIER-TE and > did random BFR-ID == SI allocation, you may end up sending more copies > across a lot of links. Eg: when you end up with BFR-ID with 2 different > SI in a country. So the logic of allocating BFR-ID or sub-domains > is really necessary/beneficial almost as much in BIER as in BIER-TE > in these type of examples. In non-TE BIER, you could also set up each country as a separate BIER sub-domain (or even a completely separate BIER domain, if we had inter-domain signaling of some sort). Something like that might be needed anyway for inter-AS BIER. >> Part of the BFER processing would be to figure out for each packet (a) >> am I supposed to receive this packet and (b) did I receive it from the >> sub-domain over which I'm expecting it? > > Hmmm... no, can't parse that. knowing which sub-domain a packet is > for is like BIER via the label when MPLS encap is done (otherwise it > wouldhave to be in the BIER header). Punting to higher layer is > just based on having a bit with local decap and as explained above, > the controller can intelligently assign this shared for leaf BFERs. Think about an application like MVPN extranet, where one (S,G) flow is traveling through one sub-domain, another (S,G) flow is traveling through another sub-domain, and you have to make sure that each flow gets punted to the proper VRF. If a given BFER for that flow is in both sub-domains, you'd need to know the sub-domain in order to dispatch to the proper VRF. But I guess this could happen in non-TE BIER as well if different VPNs are using different sub-domains. >>> [Toerless] rings require also only one bit per node (local decap), >>> and a single shared bit for the ring (Section 4.6) (or even for >>> multiple rings). >> >> [Eric] I don't quite understand from section 4.6 why a given packet will not >> revolve around the ring forever, as the "ring bit" only seems to get >> reset when the packet leaves the ring. Also, if the "ring bit" gets >> reset when a packet leaves the ring, how do you use one bit for multiple >> rings? Perhaps I've misunderstood something. > > [Toerless] "On BFR2, the adjacency also points to the > clockwise neighbor BFR1, but without DNR set. " > DNR bit is part of the adjacency in the BIFT, so only > the copies sent across the ring adjacencies will have it set, and then > we do not set DNR towards the end of the ring before it would loop. Doesn't this assume that all the BIER-TE packets enter the ring at a single ingress? If packets can enter the ring at multiple points, what is the meaning of "end of the ring"? > [Toerless] Multiple rings is just an example. DNR allows you to save bits > in bitstring whenever you are fine all BIER-TE traffic is flooded > across that sub-topology. Just set up in the BIFTs appropriate > adjacencies to flood (loop free) across the topology. I see how this would work for a sub-topology that is itself a tree (single ingress). But if the non-leaf nodes in the sub-topology are also BFERs, you'd still need bits for them. From nobody Fri Oct 16 12:41:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9ECF1B3358 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:41:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id byDfoubImWwg for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B41D81AD34C for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:41:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7596; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445024487; x=1446234087; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=9vJM5CacOklh/V6uUxmFfO4p99f0rlzrTq7GELl2Bz4=; b=EwN7H4mSu1GmlujFkJFeC8OIESdwv1K+8BnorBC8UnLYQzYYiUcZlS1E s3tNWoj+sJ/wUoTnXGxZgkyBPRh6/or50wyTlkusZxVrAZRG7je7hDokt /IcbBVuk5E8nNm5AT7vrDc64nqs7iwhzJvYQwNgluFuX88BWuQiAEI6pe 0=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,690,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="38275077" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Oct 2015 19:41:27 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9GJfQxp028210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:41:27 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9GJfQI4024553; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:41:26 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t9GJfQor024552; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:41:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:41:26 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <20151016194126.GA21691@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <561BFD2C.8090708@juniper.net> <20151013000257.GA13911@cisco.com> <56214683.5090900@juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56214683.5090900@juniper.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" , Neale Ranns Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:41:30 -0000 On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 02:48:35PM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > >>[Eric] in BIER-TE forwarding the BFIR-id doesn't require a bit in the > >>BitString, so eliminating the BFIR-id doesn't really seem to provide > >>much value. > > >[Toerless] 16 bit header saved. > > I think that would count as "not much value" ;-) FWIW, originally the > MPLS encapsulation made the BFIR-id an optional field, but then you need > a flag bit to say whether it is present, and it just seemed simpler to > always include it. Agreed. I forgot the smiley in my text. > >[Toerless] If BFR is leaf BFER, then controller only assigns bit to the > >links leading up to the leaf BFER, not the BFER itself. > > >For all non-leaf BFER, controller assigns an individual bit. > > Got it, I didn't attend properly to the fact that non-leaf BFERs have > their own bits. > > Maybe I should have said "almost got it" ;-) Under what conditions will > a leaf node receive a packet that it doesn't need to consume? That is, > what is the significance of failing to set the local_decaps bit? With todays scope of BIER-TE only when the bitstring had some bit that was assigned to an interface into the leaf. We could easily avoid the single "shared leaf bit" by having a forwarding plane feature "you're a leaf BFER, every BIER-TE packet you receive needs to be punted". But thats a new forwarding plane feature, the "shared leaf bit" is just a bit allocation trick, so it keeps the forwarding plane simpler/cleaner. > Doesn't this scheme make it difficult to add a new BFER for an existing > flow, or to change a non-leaf node from being a non-BFER to being a BFER > for an existing flow? Lets say you have a BFER with 2 upstream links into it. And the bitstring already has enough bits to get the packet into both routers north of these links. If its a leaf BFER, you just add one of the two link bits to get it to the leaf BFER. And the choice which one you use is your traffic engineering aspect. And we assume that the shared-leaf bit was already set for some other leaf BFER somewhere else in the network. If its not a leaf BFER, you still need to set either of these two bits for the two links, but now you also need to set one unique bit for the BFER itself so the BFER can punt it. Because you may not want this BFER to punt it, but instead just some other BFER further south of it. > In non-TE BIER, you could also set up each country as a separate BIER > sub-domain (or even a completely separate BIER domain, if we had > inter-domain signaling of some sort). Something like that might be > needed anyway for inter-AS BIER. Sure. I hope BIER-TE can be agnostic and follow the same design principles: - Use SI pretty much as in BIER to enable using same flow overly and routing underlay that relies on the BFR-ID (that implies SI). - Use same subdomain as BIER or separate one based on the bit index allocation you use for BIER (do you have enough spare bit indices you can use in BIER-TE ? No ? -> use separate sub-domain). > Think about an application like MVPN extranet, where one (S,G) flow is > traveling through one sub-domain, another (S,G) flow is traveling > through another sub-domain, and you have to make sure that each flow > gets punted to the proper VRF. If a given BFER for that flow is in both > sub-domains, you'd need to know the sub-domain in order to dispatch to > the proper VRF. But I guess this could happen in non-TE BIER as well if > different VPNs are using different sub-domains. The VRF to receive into is a parameter of the local_decap adjacency. I would prefer i only need one bit per BFER per subdomain, which for the default sub-domain would likely mean to receive only into the global table and then the next encap, eg: MPLS label determines which VRF to actually process the packet in. If you assume you have multiple sub-domains, then you'd need to have a bit for the BFER in each sub-domain anyhow, so each of these bits could have a local_decap with a different VRF. The shared leaf-BFER local_decap bit would likely still work in this context: you have some subdomain that likely is used for a particular VPN context. All leaf-BFER with that sub-domain would have this bit populated with local_decap(VRF1). And the shared leaf-BFER bit in another subdomain in the same BFER would have local_decap(VRF2). If we tried to eliminate the shared leaf bit, then we would need to have the forwarding logic: If you receive a BIER-TE packet for a particular subdomain X, punt to VRF associated with X. > >[Toerless] "On BFR2, the adjacency also points to the > > clockwise neighbor BFR1, but without DNR set. " > > >DNR bit is part of the adjacency in the BIFT, so only > >the copies sent across the ring adjacencies will have it set, and then > >we do not set DNR towards the end of the ring before it would loop. > > Doesn't this assume that all the BIER-TE packets enter the ring at a > single ingress? If packets can enter the ring at multiple points, what > is the meaning of "end of the ring"? In the example, all packets are entering from one of two "upstream" routers. That the typical MSO case. If you have ring traffic where multicast can enter from any node, then the TE design is a bit more complex: You effectively have to use two bits, one to pass the packet clockwise around the ring, the other one to pass it counterclockwise. You still choose one link on the ring where you break the loop. Whenever you receive a packet fromm outside the ring, the copy you send clockwise into the ring would already have the counterclockwise bit reset because the DNR bit is only keeping the bit set when the packet is replicated across the adjacency on which the DNR bit is set. Liwise for the copy in the other direction. Maybe i should use that more complex example, i was just afraid it would have readers eyes bleed too much ;-) > >[Toerless] Multiple rings is just an example. DNR allows you to save bits > >in bitstring whenever you are fine all BIER-TE traffic is flooded > >across that sub-topology. Just set up in the BIFTs appropriate > >adjacencies to flood (loop free) across the topology. > > I see how this would work for a sub-topology that is itself a tree > (single ingress). But if the non-leaf nodes in the sub-topology are > also BFERs, you'd still need bits for them. Yes. From the accounting side you always assume one bit per BFER, then the question is how many more bits you need for the intervening topology. Eg: Ring is one or two bits depending how traffic needs to flow. Leaf BFER you only need additional bits for the second and further links into the BFER, so non-redundant BFERs are especially cheap on the bits (this is accounting. Forwarding reality is of course the first link into the BFER requires a bit but the BFER itself not). Another way to save bits i have not discussed is to even have transit BFER have a local_decap on the leaf-BFER punt bit - and expect that the next layer can do a fast-drop for the payload if the packet is not of interest. But that of course depends highly on the payload. Of course if you want to just traffic engineer eg: for a particular sub-domain some stupid L2 broadcast service, and you're only interested in the bits for the path engineering in your core, then a single shared bit in that sub-domain for all BFER is all you need. Cheers Toerless -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Fri Oct 16 14:47:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9F01A1BB5 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 79kdQL1ZWD_K for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFE871A1BD2 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pabrc13 with SMTP id rc13so131112371pab.0 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nexenta_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type; bh=bvfFntWq/XjvLUorzTWnT0r+oLrnpZqg1boaZEqsIf8=; b=RwEC4Rc02mVt1cZer2+ZaivAvsB6YDkpImAz8irXnONsWvmSfv3AOFvD1RxubUPtBV xKVGP+SLyu+DT88N6qKJi61fVbKbFvH7nAVg3IIOM1e4E3lk+Hik5L9SMO5odTTeY3iV 75Fg94yjhwvxS/MZK6RgSdfcXh/pNqaSDAVdbIL9a5pp0eo1xXqyNo3f9eFxEwlPN6J5 sORhTryjzLzNSVCBo6LGjf5laUl1ALdPQd4U2Habjk1fyJcgukE12BhrDcS4PXK4DbcC EykPNYtBmTwsE1ktbcdTZ0YNKSHlUVXXJDUk/9txI0aj3aVKuArI1JkdQrNyJ6PMKUu+ VXvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=bvfFntWq/XjvLUorzTWnT0r+oLrnpZqg1boaZEqsIf8=; b=OntpKMvlnFlKAKWjyt0PtoQ1IC4b4r8zxUfdePmB8zerRxhMff8yRauQ0NnjjmgiMP D7CEKJhPg0hhLSMuJ8GW9COo0CJ4hE342YtWC8uJ96rV8KU6VVshr/HTEhVC76NUwxcf /lei6hCZfpYghb0Hw+x5fAXrIGFTqOtPus7DnbDgZiBx44vsV9Te++YctKzwNm5oLI2o +51dAtutK+CmJnhLGQPC2z3X7MldYmNWVt4H8HlOwUcGCZomMwuK2M5tyj5cqHqUWMoZ WT4/wqrIiH+/0gTgwVtIIjITE85caKZDsKsU/gMsQ71i7/pm9FF4MVSHSHUb6GWT9/wU aQ/w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkwE+kspgsOyBJJuk9uT4zTi3QSlCrt6jV85t2kF9YCQ8eCLT2y5Qsm1LoIoYHWvu51L0mr X-Received: by 10.68.98.99 with SMTP id eh3mr19008544pbb.126.1445032040608; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id hq8sm23114219pad.35.2015.10.16.14.47.19 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT) To: bier@ietf.org References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <561BFD2C.8090708@juniper.net> <20151013000257.GA13911@cisco.com> <56214683.5090900@juniper.net> <20151016194126.GA21691@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <56217075.5090402@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:47:33 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151016194126.GA21691@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060908060405040608030603" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:47:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060908060405040608030603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I'm understanding BIER-TE finally, but I have a few questions to confirm my understanding. How does an application use this? In particular, how is this done so the overhead of determining the end-to-end path is not imposed on the host or BFIR on a per packet basis? Presumably the application, or a utility library, translates each destination IP address into a bit position. This is safe because the mapping of IP address to bit position is stable. The host or the BFIR *extends* that bitmap to provide additional bits which are there for the benefit of intermediate forwarders which would not have build a map of all destinations for their own purposes. Edge BFRs would need to build such a map, but core BFRs with no clients directly attached would not have to. More importantly than not having to build it, they would not have to store it. What is the stability of these derived bits? Are we preventing transitory renumbering of internal links somehow? How often does the mapping of a destination IP address to intermediate paths to be followed hold? Is this something a user-mode BIER utility library, or a host stack, would have to be involved with? What portion of the bitmap would be needed for the "derived" bits? What is a reasonable ratio between true destination bits and intermediate forwarding bits? How does this compare to using a TRILL-style encapsulation with the outer-BIER header containing *only* the forwarding bits and an inner BIER header containing only the ultimate destination bits? --------------060908060405040608030603 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I'm understanding BIER-TE finally, but I have a few questions to confirm my understanding.


How does an application use this?

In particular, how is this done so the overhead of determining the end-to-end path is not
imposed on the host or BFIR on a per packet basis?
Presumably the application, or a utility library, translates each destination IP address into a
bit position. This is safe because the mapping of IP address to bit position is stable.

The host or the BFIR *extends* that bitmap to provide additional bits which are there for the
benefit of intermediate forwarders which would not have build a map of all destinations for
their own purposes. Edge BFRs would need to build such a map, but core BFRs with no clients
directly attached would not have to. More importantly than not having to build it, they would
not have to store it.

What is the stability of these derived bits? Are we preventing transitory renumbering of internal
links somehow? How often does the mapping of a destination IP address to intermediate paths
to be followed hold? Is this something a user-mode BIER utility library, or a host stack, would
have to be involved with?

What portion of the bitmap would be needed for the "derived" bits?

What is a reasonable ratio between true destination bits and intermediate forwarding bits?

How does this compare to using a TRILL-style encapsulation with the outer-BIER header containing
*only* the forwarding bits and an inner BIER header containing only the ultimate destination bits?

--------------060908060405040608030603-- From nobody Fri Oct 16 17:46:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64741A88E1 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:46:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jwuUvzPSVHVd for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDA8D1A88DB for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:46:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4424; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445042798; x=1446252398; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=uTYxF3gSWgsG1fKRLzFyEkp4g7Tytq2ElxFbKUnWixc=; b=Hg14R7T00YnQWehmyevPa4Ja4zhv1LC50gvso2d+kLcRLcHUJXck3Fxa h5cTC5r5OQmEpvMVdCNljS+ODTdCsFIctLxM4vNvWNht/zrJPiLM1+rd0 r1KFWiyLbDQ+5T2+q7RShGWe1duasCqiXKS6pwGUSs1qD2CThdg/kJ6sN o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D7AQB2mSFW/4wNJK1egzVUb71xAQ2BWRcKgkODOgKBODgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCgBAQEDAQEBATc0CwULCxgJJQ8FEzYTG4gNCA3DZAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEi3WFDQeDGoEUBY4HhFKDSY0VCIFYkXWEWoNvHwEBQoQjHjSFZwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,691,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="198753398" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Oct 2015 00:46:37 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9H0kaL6010659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:46:37 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9H0ka6k011110; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:46:36 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t9H0kaim011109; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:46:36 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:46:36 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <20151017004636.GA9888@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <561BFD2C.8090708@juniper.net> <20151013000257.GA13911@cisco.com> <56214683.5090900@juniper.net> <20151016194126.GA21691@cisco.com> <56217075.5090402@nexenta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56217075.5090402@nexenta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:46:40 -0000 Inline. On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 02:47:33PM -0700, Caitlin Bestler wrote: > I think I'm understanding BIER-TE finally, but I have a few questions to > confirm my understanding. > > How does an application use this? > > In particular, how is this done so the overhead of determining the > end-to-end path is not > imposed on the host or BFIR on a per packet basis? I don't think we've done a lot of brainstorming how to do end-2-end BIER where the two ends are actual applications instead of transport services gateways, eg: BIER-PE or the like (encap/decap native IP multicast or MPLS multicast). Assuming we had end-to-end bier, for BIER proper you'd have a 1:1 mapping between receiver and a bit in the bitstring, and its a matter of the API we build whether or not we hide these bitstrings. In BIER-TE you'd have to have like in other TE solutions some upfront magic that determines the shape of the overall tree. Eg: PCE controller or so. This is not a BIER-TE problem, this is a TE problem. If you want to build something like Steiner trees than the overall tree would want to change when you add/delete a receiver. If thats the traffic optimization needed, then worst case the PCE controller would need to give you for each possible combination of receivers a different bitstring. Not really difficult, but potentially a bit of upfront calculation depending on how many receivers you have and how many subsets are of interest. Again, this alculation would need to be done however you'd want to do TE, BIER or whatever else. Just the output being a bitstring is BIER-TE specific. If the path towards each receiver should not change whether or not other receivers are included into the tree or not, then it gets easier: The PCE controller would give you for each candidate reciver a bitstring, and the actual bitstring you want to use in your BIER packet is just the OR of the bitstrings for each receiver. > What is the stability of these derived bits? Are we preventing > transitory renumbering of internal links somehow? Assignment of bit-indices to links or BFRs or the like is all just software in the BIER-TE controller software, For path selection it may consult some external generic PCE controller or perform those functions itself. You can reuse a particular bit-index as soon as that bit-index is not used for anything else in any running BIFT or BFIR adjacency. This is really only a problem when the network growths. When you have link-failure, you do not reassign bits, you just need to update the bitstrings on the BFIR for packets to take alternative paths. > How often does the mapping of a destination IP > address to intermediate paths to be followed hold? IN BIER-TE you don't see the path in the bitstring, and it changes automatically because of routing. In BIER-TE its fully or partially visible. Its really just a matter of your policy when/how you want to change it. Because of varying load ? Link/node failures, network expansion... > Is this something a user-mode BIER utility > library, or a host stack, would > have to be involved with? If a BIER packet is created by an application level entity then it needs to insert the right bitstring, but as suggested above it might consult an external entity like a PCE controller or BIER-TE controller to get this information. Such interactions have not been defined yet. But likewise in normal BIER, you'd today need manual config or be able to retrieve IGP information to map from IP-address to BFR-id. > What portion of the bitmap would be needed for the "derived" bits? > > What is a reasonable ratio between true destination bits and > intermediate forwarding bits? See one of my last emails. Depends on how much traffic engineering you want/need. I think most deployment should be able to use less than 50% of bits. > How does this compare to using a TRILL-style encapsulation with the > outer-BIER header containing > *only* the forwarding bits and an inner BIER header containing only > the ultimate destination bits? Depends really on what you want to achieve. Easier to answer based on an explicit example if you have one... Cheers Toerless > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Sat Oct 17 08:25:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8941A90EE; Sat, 17 Oct 2015 08:25:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LjSJxphsCsQG; Sat, 17 Oct 2015 08:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4531A90CF; Sat, 17 Oct 2015 08:25:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151017152528.17819.82376.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 08:25:28 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 15:25:29 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication Working Group of the IETF. Title : BIER support via ISIS Authors : Les Ginsberg Tony Przygienda Sam Aldrin Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-01.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2015-10-17 Abstract: Specification of an ISIS extension to support BIER domains and sub- domains. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Oct 18 21:09:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44EA1A0451 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:08:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id syrZ_o1xit7S for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39C561A1A04 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:08:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2936; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445227738; x=1446437338; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=q1SaFjZ1/FKQjXOu++N47BFj2xZPY5OtFWxlpHnST28=; b=HsCYAHoqc46bWXlE+h/ns7bOCf64gyMmt8mug3JF9XuMeUK6Oy8/jjcy CSJHBrQsh++7ciMtl9LB5kalTeaz87LieIhil8oeg/23USpmHKiQMPGis jmWuBrGi8iEnKygv+ZfR+hniBj2x4tkH09TT8HyIM5cUmtbgINORI+NMD k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D8AQA+bCRW/4kNJK1dgzZUb716AQ2BWiGFfQKBITgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhC4BAQQnEz0CEAsSBgklDwU1J4gwDcJ6AQEBAQEBAQECAQEBAQEBAQEBGot1hQ0HF4QXBY0SdYgchRmHfAiBWEiDdI07iEkfAQFChCMeNAGFZgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,700,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="198793706" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 19 Oct 2015 04:08:57 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9J48uOV030420 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Oct 2015 04:08:57 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9J48uGm002788; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:08:56 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t9J48uhi002787; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:08:56 -0700 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:08:56 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20151019040856.GG14847@cisco.com> References: <20151019040341.5411.52264.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151019040341.5411.52264.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Cauchie Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 04:09:00 -0000 Hopefully the changes made for -02 capture what was missing or confusing in the discusses about BIER-TE we had on the list (*): 13. Change log [RFC Editor: Please remove] 02: Changed the definition of BIFT to be more inline with BIER. In revs. up to -01, the idea was that a BIFT has only entries for a single bitstring, and every SI and subdomain would be a separate BIFT. In BIER, each BIFT covers all SI. This is now also how we define it in BIER-TE. 02: Added Section 8 to explain the use of SI, subdomains and BFR- id in BIER-TE and to give an example how to efficiently assign bits for a large topology requiring multiple SI. -> This is the major piece, ca. 5 pages. 02: Added further detailed for rings - how to support input from all ring nodes. Thanks Toerless (*) Oops, forgot to update list of kudos with the folks who helped to clarify, i will upload a -03 earlier in the IETF week. On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 09:03:41PM -0700, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A new version of I-D, draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Toerless Eckert and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch > Revision: 02 > Title: Traffic Enginering for Bit Index Explicit Replication BIER-TE > Document date: 2015-10-18 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 30 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 > > Abstract: > This document proposes an architecture for BIER-TE: Traffic > Engineering for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER). > > BIER-TE shares part of its architecture with BIER as described in > [I-D.ietf-bier-architecture]. It also proposes to share the packet > format with BIER. > > BIER-TE forwards and replicates packets like BIER based on a > BitString in the packet header but it does not require an IGP. It > does support traffic engineering by explicit hop-by-hop forwarding > and loose hop forwarding of packets. It does support Fast ReRoute > (FRR) for link and node protection and incremental deployment. > Because BIER-TE like BIER operates without explicit in-network tree- > building but also supports traffic engineering, it is more similar to > SR than RSVP-TE. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Mon Oct 19 06:42:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128FD1A1B62; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:42:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151019134205.18152.72437.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:42:05 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:42:05 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication Working Group of the IETF. Title : OSPF Extensions For BIER Authors : Peter Psenak Nagendra Kumar IJsbrand Wijnands Andrew Dolganow Tony Przygienda Jeffrey Zhang Sam Aldrin Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-01.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2015-10-19 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that correspond to those routers in the BIER header. This document describes the OSPF protocol extension required for BIER with MPLS encapsulation. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Oct 20 09:33:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68CA71A8752 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0f_L3307vmSt for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1 with 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L2Rpdj4NCjwvc3Bhbj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_D24BD9F0A6121naikumarciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Oct 20 17:48:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E2D1B2A6B for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:48:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2nnnkT4Pl7Kk for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx6.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293641B2A68 for ; Tue, 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([10.98.56.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:59:25 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "wang.cui1@zte.com.cn" , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHRC5oz7CAL4ol2p0uuBnxKJV+2q551JqGQ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:59:25 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3C402@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.55] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3C402NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "nvo3@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit 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Hi Linda,<= o:p>

 = ;

Thanks for= proposing this draft.

 = ;

I think it= =A1=AFs worthwhile for the WG to consider the possibility of deploying BIER= in non-MPLS networks (e.g., a data center network where VXLAN/NVGRE is deployed). IMHO, one major reason for those DC operators, especially no= n-SP DC operators to prefer VXLAN/NVGRE to MPLS-in-UDP/MPLS-in-GRE in their= data center networks is that they are unfamiliar with MPLS or dislike MPLS= instinctively. Honestly speaking, I couldn=A1=AFt think of any technical advantage of using VXLAN/NVGRE inst= ead of MPLS-in-UDP/MPLS-in-GRE, especially in the hybrid cloud scenario whe= re it=A1=AFs much necessary to interconnect the DC VPN with the WAN VPN (i.= e., MPLS-based VPN) in a scalable way (i.e., by using inter-AS option B). When deploying BIER in the above networks, th= ose DC operators are familiar with MPLS and advocate MPLS all of a sudden. = Doesn=A1=AFt it sound strange?

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wang.cui1@zte.com.cn
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 8:48 AM
To: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lit= e-ospf-extension-01.txt

 


Dear all,

 A new draft about how to extend IGP protocol to implement BIER in non= -MPLS network is proposed, which is also named as BIER-Lite in this draft.
  Wish you can pay attention to this = draft and any comments are welcome:)
 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.tx= t

Best Wishes,
Linda Wang

internet-drafts@ietf.org =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/16 16:29:32:

> internet-drafts@ietf.o= rg
> 2015/10/16 = 16:29
>
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB
>
> "Cui Wang" <w= ang.cui1@zte.com.cn>, "Cui Wang"
> <wang.cui1@zte.com.cn>, "Zheng Zhang" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>,
> "Zheng Zhang" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>,
>
> =B3=AD=CB=CD
>
> =D6=F7=CC=E2
>
> New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-0= 1.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Cui Wang and posted to the=
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:      draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension=
> Revision:   01
> Title:      OSPF Extension for BIER-Lite
> Document date:   2015-10-16
> Group:      Individual Submission
> Pages:      13
> URL:            <= tt>https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/dr= aft-wang-
> bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-bier= - > lite-ospf-extension/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-bier-lite-
> ospf-extension-01
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraf= t-wang-bier-
> lite-ospf-extension-01
>
> Abstract:
>    Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) [I-D.ietf-bier-= architecture] is
>    an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwa= rding through a
>    "BIER domain" without requiring intermediat= e routers to maintain any
>    multicast related per-flow state.  BIER also doe= s not require any
>    explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. &n= bsp;Currently, the
>    data plane of BIER is apt to use BIER-MPLS encapsulat= ion to transmit
>    multicast traffic.  However, this document tries= to propose a
>    solution name BIER-Lite about how to extend OSPF prot= ocol to support
>    BIER forwarding in non-MPLS underlay network instead = of MPLS underlay
>    network.
>
>                   &nb= sp;                     &= nbsp;                    =                
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.or= g.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3C402NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Wed Oct 21 00:46:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3EA1B368A for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:46:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DNAtkUr-FTYK for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6101B3689 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:46:27 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Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , "wu.bo@zte.com.cn" Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:46:32 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 002A94A348257EE5_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTmFnZW5kcmEsDQoNCiAgICBGb3IgUTE6IFllcywgSSBhZ3JlZSB0byB5b3UgdGhhdCB0aGUg VEUgdGVjaG5vbG9neSBzaG91bGQgYmUgdXNlZCBpbiANCkJJRVINCmRvbWFpbi4gQW5kIHdlIHdp bGwgbm90IHVzZSB0aGUgc2lnbmFsIG9mIFJTVlAtVEUgaW4gQklFUiBkb21haW4gZHVlIHRvIA0K c2ltcGxpZnkgDQp0aGUgY29udHJvbCBwbGFuZS4gVGhlIGluZ3Jlc3Mgbm9kZXMgd2lsbCBjb2xs ZWN0IHRoZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBvZiANCmVncmVzcw0Kbm9kZXMgZnJvbSBNVlBOIG9yIG90aGVy 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Pg0KJmd0OyAmZ3Q7IFBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWlu dXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lDQpvZiBzdWJtaXNzaW9uPGJyPg0KJmd0OyAmZ3Q7IHVudGlsIHRo ZSBodG1saXplZCB2ZXJzaW9uIGFuZCBkaWZmIGFyZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5v cmcuPGJyPg0KJmd0OyAmZ3Q7IDxicj4NCiZndDsgJmd0OyBUaGUgSUVURiBTZWNyZXRhcmlhdDxi cj4NCiZndDsgJmd0OyA8L3R0PjwvZm9udD4NCg== --=_alternative 002A94A348257EE5_=-- From nobody Wed Oct 21 05:52:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EDFB1A6F87 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 05:52:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6LAy8p0MG52C for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 05:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com (mail-ig0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26AFE1A6F30 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 05:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbhv6 with SMTP id hv6so36816472igb.0 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 05:52:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=F67z2Nn0y87QUz9e/6qR2+7BvzhXOXEClK0jjtkaEZY=; b=PNFEc6KsoJeUbv+iE0hIpN6dnHEWT/RX2QcP4B6bO1RK/GZKHEJt1pq8DqoRZ+w4a3 5T4K7EGjG2ciY5KbzyTO/tCjH68HNEtWFnl820B5zyXHTqmNphUJ8r2t/fLH2y54Gle/ pPo7EYWz9DGsJkSx6CNragn5ODjBtADYbfiU5D8oD3HB1cv3bszuYnqHW07VWymcMvMw EO76qNhwnFHBnJ0OP/iZAyKr94b9ls688Autx1L2BkduIMoMmh6Ii/MNObOtYGFSRdpK IPK8qg0ZS50+sJsjltvPvNL9yiCd2qgnFdl1LIBKC3LqdmUBy4LuEcDjZc+En9AKRiX2 SYSg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.79.197 with SMTP id l5mr10333783igx.93.1445431954429; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 05:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.27.195 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 05:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:52:34 +0300 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cc16830dee705229cda02 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comment on draft-anish-bier-overlay-pim-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:52:36 -0000 --089e013cc16830dee705229cda02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Read that up quickly and two observations: a) I don't see a need for the E-bit, either the BFR-ID is visible in the routing underlay (IGP) or not. Setting the E bit if there is none doesn't help, not setting it when present seems to serve no purpose ? b) sub-domains are forgotten unless the draft supports only a single, well-known sub-domain (to be specified in the draft). BFR-id is per sub-domain and so on. --- tony --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --089e013cc16830dee705229cda02 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Read that up quickly and two observations:

<= div>a) I don't see a need for the E-bit, either the BFR-ID is visible i= n the routing underlay (IGP) or not. Setting the E bit if there is none doe= sn't help, not setting it when present seems to serve no purpose ?=C2= =A0
b) sub-domains are forgotten unless the draft supports only a= single, well-known sub-domain (to be specified in the draft). BFR-id is pe= r sub-domain and so on.=C2=A0

--- tony=C2=A0

--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million ke= yboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the= Internet, we know that is not true.
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
--089e013cc16830dee705229cda02-- From nobody Wed Oct 21 06:27:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974471A700A for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 06:27:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cvbVG9ihFnDT for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 06:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client 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alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Oct 2015 13:27:23 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (xch-aln-015.cisco.com [173.36.7.25]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9LDRNWi007445 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:27:23 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) by XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:27:04 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:27:04 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" Thread-Topic: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRB+oWkiOoG0w+a0O5IGOtQSN78J50qtgAgAFCOACAABxJAA== Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:27:04 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US 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X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:29:41 -0000 On 10/21/2015 3:46 AM, zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn wrote: > For Q2: The duplication will not happen. Because the packet header > will change > from (D,F,K) to D while send from F to C; and the header will change > from (D,F,K) > to K while send from F to H. So the packet will arrive node D and K only > once. I think the problem is that the text in section 6.1 is not very clear, and we can't really tell just what part of the algorithm causes the bits representing D, F, or K to be cleared. For instance, I'm really not sure what "AND'ing with all the table items" means. It's hard to understand how it is known at F that D is reached via C but K is reached via H. Perhaps the example should be fleshed out a bit with the details of just how it is determined which bits get cleared when the packet is forwarded. 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[67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w9sm9902799pbt.29.2015.10.21.09.06.40 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:06:40 -0700 (PDT) To: bier@ietf.org References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3C402@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <5627B811.2060805@nexenta.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:06:41 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3C402@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050403090301040205070403" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:06:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050403090301040205070403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/20/15 6:59 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: > > Hi Linda, > > Thanks for proposing this draft. > > I think it’s worthwhile for the WG to consider the possibility of > deploying BIER in non-MPLS networks (e.g., a data center network where > VXLAN/NVGRE is deployed). IMHO, one major reason for those DC > operators, especially non-SP DC operators to prefer VXLAN/NVGRE to > MPLS-in-UDP/MPLS-in-GRE in their data center networks is that they are > unfamiliar with MPLS or dislike MPLS instinctively. Honestly speaking, > I couldn’t think of any technical advantage of using VXLAN/NVGRE > instead of MPLS-in-UDP/MPLS-in-GRE, especially in the hybrid cloud > scenario where it’s much necessary to interconnect the DC VPN with the > WAN VPN (i.e., MPLS-based VPN) in a scalable way (i.e., by using > inter-AS option B). When deploying BIER in the above networks, those > DC operators are familiar with MPLS and advocate MPLS all of a sudden. > Doesn’t it sound strange? > When a data center is already using a Virtualization Manager to set up VLANs or VxLANs it is safe to bet that some annoying little app that wants to do multicasting will simply be ignored. They will certainly not rewrite their entire infrastructure to use MPLS. Already having things working without MPLS is a horrendous technical advantage. Is there anything difficult in mapping a BIER sub-domain to an already existing VXLAN or VLAN? --------------050403090301040205070403 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 10/20/15 6:59 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote:

Hi Linda,

 

Thanks for proposing this draft.

 

I think it’s worthwhile for the WG to consider the possibility of deploying BIER in non-MPLS networks (e.g., a data center network where VXLAN/NVGRE is deployed). IMHO, one major reason for those DC operators, especially non-SP DC operators to prefer VXLAN/NVGRE to MPLS-in-UDP/MPLS-in-GRE in their data center networks is that they are unfamiliar with MPLS or dislike MPLS instinctively. Honestly speaking, I couldn’t think of any technical advantage of using VXLAN/NVGRE instead of MPLS-in-UDP/MPLS-in-GRE, especially in the hybrid cloud scenario where it’s much necessary to interconnect the DC VPN with the WAN VPN (i.e., MPLS-based VPN) in a scalable way (i.e., by using inter-AS option B). When deploying BIER in the above networks, those DC operators are familiar with MPLS and advocate MPLS all of a sudden. Doesn’t it sound strange?

 


When a data center is already using a Virtualization Manager to set up VLANs or VxLANs it is safe to bet that some
annoying little app that wants to do multicasting will simply be ignored. They will certainly not rewrite their entire
infrastructure to use MPLS.

Already having things working without MPLS is a horrendous technical advantage.

Is there anything difficult in mapping a BIER sub-domain to an already existing VXLAN or VLAN?

--------------050403090301040205070403-- From nobody Wed Oct 21 09:13:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA9F1B29D2 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:13:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 951U_bOLqgR0 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0135.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6F061ACD7E for ; 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charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Tony, Thanks for sharing you observations. Please see inline for response. On 10/21/15 6:22 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Read that up quickly and two observations: > > a) I don't see a need for the E-bit, either the BFR-ID is visible in > the routing underlay (IGP) or not. Setting the E bit if there is none > doesn't help, not setting it when present seems to serve no purpose ? AP> The field in the hello tlv is BIER-prefix and not BIER-ID. A router participating in BIER forwarding but is not egress may not have a BIER-ID, but will have BIER-prefix. Hence this flag helps. > b) sub-domains are forgotten unless the draft supports only a single, > well-known sub-domain (to be specified in the draft). BFR-id is per > sub-domain and so on. AP> This overlay model uses BIER-prefix alone which is unique across all the bier domains. Resolving BIER-prefix to sub-domain and BIER-ID is considered as a functionality to be achieved with the information from underlay. Thanks, Anish > > --- tony > > -- > /We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could > produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the > Internet, we know that is not true.// > / > —Robert Wilensky > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --------------040208070902060506020302 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Tony,
 Thanks for sharing you observations. Please see inline for response.

On 10/21/15 6:22 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote:
Read that up quickly and two observations:

a) I don't see a need for the E-bit, either the BFR-ID is visible in the routing underlay (IGP) or not. Setting the E bit if there is none doesn't help, not setting it when present seems to serve no purpose ?
AP> The field in the hello tlv is BIER-prefix and not BIER-ID. A router participating in BIER forwarding but is not egress may not have a BIER-ID, but will have BIER-prefix. Hence this flag helps.
b) sub-domains are forgotten unless the draft supports only a single, well-known sub-domain (to be specified in the draft). BFR-id is per sub-domain and so on.
AP> This overlay model uses BIER-prefix alone which is unique across all the bier domains. Resolving BIER-prefix to sub-domain and BIER-ID is considered as a functionality to be achieved with the information from underlay.

Thanks,
Anish

--- tony 

--
We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.
—Robert Wilensky


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--------------040208070902060506020302-- From nobody Wed Oct 21 10:20:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09FC1B2B00 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8cZh3mz4lSvw for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72A5A1B2AFC for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:20:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=683; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445448015; x=1446657615; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=IXUn41ypMYfgysJ+H5c8AUJgbhk88iW1SWoypI9Rbdo=; b=eGqmpnY97gSP7sWCmGHpbZoWrfmQ4Lf6rZhxywYqzrAqBse6AmRoF9uO VDfdtzJWqlrEWMyPUbKLbXh8TgIQoFKld/8q8YIZtBfImcDYxUC2WzSak QOtcB7MBiCeBcve60CLTZOHHO70n+4KUuSLbbKXlmxOk1ELQedGTNv9Iv k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CABwDFyCdW/xbLJq1drh8BAQEFAYENlTuGHQKCEwEBAQEBAYELhC8BAQMBI1QCBQsLGgImAgJXBog7CLFRknYBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYgSKFDoJXgm6EWjMHgmkxgRQBBJYniAmFFZwiY4JEgUE8hncBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,177,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="605837797" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Oct 2015 17:20:13 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8816.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8816.cisco.com [10.60.202.87]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9LHKCoB009531 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:20:13 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <5627B811.2060805@nexenta.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 19:20:21 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1D31FDA1-0283-4AB6-8DCA-0E39FA0C58AD@cisco.com> References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3C402@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <5627B811.2060805@nexenta.com> To: Caitlin Bestler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:20:17 -0000 Hi Caitlin, > annoying little app that wants to do multicasting will simply be = ignored. They will certainly not rewrite their entire > infrastructure to use MPLS. Why would you assume unicast has to change in order to deploy BIER with = MPLS? >=20 > Already having things working without MPLS is a horrendous technical = advantage. BIER uses MPLS as indirection into a BIFT, that=E2=80=99s it. The = allocation and distribution of that =E2=80=98Label=E2=80=99, is all = within the boundaries of the BIER procedures we defined. Effectively we = are not doing any MPLS based forwarding. Would it help is we rename the = 20 bits into 'BIFT ID'? Thx, Ice.= From nobody Wed Oct 21 12:41:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68901AC3A0 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pgZQ9QcHdrmI for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22a.google.com (mail-pa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40C071A92BD for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacfv9 with SMTP id fv9so65861350pac.3 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:41:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nexenta_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q/mdrxQhI8KbKoYVt3Dz8zQ+J97GFZbWgefOvRFRzlc=; b=aMYCT4gs8b5XO/CjlsWPx8tM/SGvkBsqyB8V7lxhy3Kkiyt2u70N8MhHpN6gakwPy4 GKHxG2DOeZW47eQ5S+9OzOusHj2e4yWwztskVTbeuyQx/scTHBHE3ItFkmigzWFXU8ke XPg/O+wPq/bqj1YgZLeqORFOYF9EZnagVf4V2PXRnFMFLjIo30C/5JgIGa2zTGa4LybW 3EowAsS/2w2XMHUk4scyDavNbbgGdfFMXE+1SBuEd7l9oDU8/SHzyQ0lw9+LKHfhtFwr OAON5Squh6igv5GWcaJmtaumRdCeUuC1AsXSdLyFJxH9TxgJjDCHEumWEs7cd/j5T8md Jn3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q/mdrxQhI8KbKoYVt3Dz8zQ+J97GFZbWgefOvRFRzlc=; b=mA2pRvlmntvN3zdAzNjq4jJ/QthCPOeBVSrhMcJ1eTMkzer70vNXDf2/2YkoTcjoGC vRLReP+75lMQITFPq2R5bzpvoFqQFaQ81tndSFgKsfWE7JEut0DGnQhb4hd2VswysfsJ QxxzhzOwYVPy8lbZ2IfbpclejObszJcsRnS1s1idoO9R/yrs+m9HaAaWh+AOOjS1Vpws qvivE/vUibaBl1riP2Wm1wUZPTiT/kKIxmoRs3iuvLtBT3gsGgNCSTDl+w39S1/L1IDR KdvE/bfYvxNGokYMucEFFXau/8mBwik1iPXtSLGT1Ku+hCNHPSkHEhZqi6F9lSKtCynF MI3A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlpevokGxBhg+9tR5e8XFXFN30lRHkWOzLPShZ2zwlPHF+Rf4eenOZZmUIPKgRFQ+tGBxyi X-Received: by 10.67.30.74 with SMTP id kc10mr12117160pad.147.1445456469908; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id tn2sm10581993pac.0.2015.10.21.12.41.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:41:09 -0700 (PDT) To: IJsbrand Wijnands References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3C402@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <5627B811.2060805@nexenta.com> <1D31FDA1-0283-4AB6-8DCA-0E39FA0C58AD@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <5627EA56.1060602@nexenta.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:41:10 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1D31FDA1-0283-4AB6-8DCA-0E39FA0C58AD@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 19:41:11 -0000 On 10/21/15 10:20 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Hi Caitlin, > >> annoying little app that wants to do multicasting will simply be ignored. They will certainly not rewrite their entire >> infrastructure to use MPLS. > Why would you assume unicast has to change in order to deploy BIER with MPLS? Anyone writing or managing a cluster-wide network/virtualization management tool will want multicast to be nothing more than the logical union of unicast addressing. If I move a VM to a new host it is hard enough to logically rewire the network so that the unicast traffic reaches the new location. The last thing that would be wanted would be to have to separately rewire the network for multicast. Of course it is most accurate just to say that the VLAN/VXLAN is what is rewired, and both unicast and multicast addressing conforms to the new VLAN/VXLAN wiring. > >> Already having things working without MPLS is a horrendous technical advantage. > BIER uses MPLS as indirection into a BIFT, that’s it. The allocation and distribution of that ‘Label’, is all within the boundaries of the BIER procedures we defined. Effectively we are not doing any MPLS based forwarding. Would it help is we rename the 20 bits into 'BIFT ID'? Don't analyze this in the context of BIER. Cluster management exists independently of BIER. If you want it to change you'd need an explanation that made sense without having to explain BIER internals. If support for multicast is too complex their solution will be to broadcast all multicast packets to the entire VLAN/VXLAN. From nobody Wed Oct 21 15:34:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A821B32E4 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:34:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZRpYFQ1Rx7ax for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 155F01B32E0 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pabrc13 with SMTP id rc13so66776813pab.0 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:34:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nexenta_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type; bh=HYseOzvfqFetpbFeEVd3bTjoy3/jwWVAYHJTbF5b3DA=; b=rDSnLMjnMlvzWL0WqS7FySNTgyuguJVApR0sPWk9j3WVfo9+zEBO8JfWOsOvBimOhx zeMcs9Bk7+wKh6XXttF7xKAvrHP0rLm/tD2aYbCJfIGajOWmJo1zd9T0Yw5ZjEyvAc5q uSH2VOcOeJLMgChW8OINqMu2Drmn+/AJCFCivF3ho/2VrvWHIf19wfC2OFQLUpa9XfYl tf23lyhno8WyhYtANFUzkFw0TCZ3P5eiMjD/Wcwr+66JJZgZMu4hZfMD54Kb99T1ieWt WpcLRO3WQu3omyrJtrMSsw6I5dC434DguFWTmQ5KdofZ6qkZKsTA8WLAK57fdV9bVCJh VwUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=HYseOzvfqFetpbFeEVd3bTjoy3/jwWVAYHJTbF5b3DA=; b=mUDvjCyUEtrNTAJ7OX3ung7npCrrcwFeRLXKOc+ib89DPYqWjbHU+R7NUc0HCE1xrl 8j7gyiqOigcOeBHmIYVSPWjYfcHwcVicL3sHQtamHbCW+Ybrr2J64dONYvmH7OQnAvYi SpSChcHw2yPxxsaA3b09XBkHcYTyKTDmLC2jPN517AXOzbsgIOeTtFarltAQ983+lQ4b Mk/9nQQqEtolurPlfTrYM/LGPNqlqhp67KHx0QsOIGYM3no6NaaS38LG7/Jx3Lhv2jxT keDHGgxQyceMXsg+7taTDNHGCYSMY3F32eBnF4X51QbSYpEIpz+NIkI8/jFXH/2n9/tw YB5w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmfCB02/StxAMDL/Vhf76p5xXUp3oWu+5o2QPXyOIIChE6P2Sfc45mZPZT+8D2kKckCkAHS X-Received: by 10.66.219.227 with SMTP id pr3mr13415013pac.33.1445466878314; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id gw3sm10937978pbc.46.2015.10.21.15.34.37 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:34:37 -0700 (PDT) To: bier@ietf.org References: From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <562812FE.6050702@nexenta.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:34:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020109070908060106070105" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 22:34:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020109070908060106070105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/16/15 1:08 AM, zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn wrote: > > Hi folks, > A new draft has been submitted to provide another solution to the > BIER network forwarding according to designed routing. > > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 > > Would like to call you attention to this new draft. Any comments > and feedback are welcomed. > > Best wishes, > Sandy > The mega-question that this draft does not touch upon is who is doing this customized routing designs and when? I realize that this is something best left to specific deployments, but a few *possible* strategies should be addressed in order to establish applicability. In particular I think addressing usability by both applications and by BFIRs would greatly help clarify the document. Only after intended usage models are at least outlined can we really evaluate the edge use cases where the route designer might have lagged information about the network state. I suspect there is a tension between having the most current network state and having the processing power to design the optimum route for each flow. --------------020109070908060106070105 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 10/16/15 1:08 AM, zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn wrote:

Hi folks,
    A new draft has been submitted to provide another solution to the
BIER network forwarding according to designed routing.

URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing/
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00

    Would like to call you attention to this new draft. Any comments
and feedback are welcomed.

Best wishes,
Sandy
The mega-question that this draft does not touch upon is who is doing this
customized routing designs and when?

I realize that this is something best left to specific deployments, but a few
*possible* strategies should be addressed in order to establish applicability.

In particular I think addressing usability by both applications and by BFIRs
would greatly help clarify the document.

Only after intended usage models are at least outlined can we really evaluate
the edge use cases where the route designer might have lagged information
about the network state. I suspect there is a tension between having the most
current network state and having the processing power to design the optimum
route for each flow.

--------------020109070908060106070105-- From nobody Thu Oct 22 00:34:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6115F1A8F3B for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 00:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id plJrv8S2ninU for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 00:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB3FF1AC3D0 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 00:34:36 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-90-562830e8fe7a Received: from EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.93]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E6.4E.32596.8E038265; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 02:42:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.93]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 03:34:34 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Anish Peter , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] comment on draft-anish-bier-overlay-pim-00 Thread-Index: AQHRC/9kbdsPkYZYUEixcTiiguDPbJ52YjcAgAC9JgA= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:34:33 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF8A82@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <5627B9EC.4090105@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <5627B9EC.4090105@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF8A82eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZXLonVvelgUaYwd6PTBY3NuxisVg6Yw+T A5PHkiU/mTyuN11lD2CK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mr49y6rYEtgxZuDG9gbGJ+6dTFyckgImEjM 79nMDmGLSVy4t56ti5GLQ0jgKKPEgbu3GCGc5YwSx45tZAOpYhOwkLj87SkziC0i4Cpx5PgC FhBbWMBO4uOOPjaIuL3Ex2nb2CFsK4m318+A1bMIqEq8mH6fCcTmFfCVOPL7FyuILSRQKLFi wiMwm1NAW2LX8mlgNiPQRd9PrQGrZxYQl7j1ZD4TxKUCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+xwphK0rs65/O DlGfL7Fi1z9miF2CEidnPmGZwCgyC8moWUjKZiEpg4jrSCzY/YkNwtaWWLbwNTOMfebAYyZk 8QWM7KsYOUqLU8ty040MNjECo+eYBJvuDsY9Ly0PMQpwMCrx8C64pB4mxJpYVlyZe4hRgoNZ SYT3n6VGmBBvSmJlVWpRfnxRaU5q8SFGaQ4WJXHe/UvuhwoJpCeWpGanphakFsFkmTg4pRoY 09t+Ra78onvQhPVezsEixzMP5VY+q7tktfydKPvrF58+mLrc/Dv1asKBb/+Vb16fmOl6OFxX LDAnOeuU96V4FeX1V3J759nk86xZtOLOnvLMmtVzY6rVPduWxd54s3rDpFf5XKz7dlU0f3JZ e+/P0Q7ZnLepRqWfJzHG2m6dqLrLUdiAp9uiTYmlOCPRUIu5qDgRAAuHKzKaAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] comment on draft-anish-bier-overlay-pim-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:34:46 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF8A82eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/21/15 6:22 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote: Read that up quickly and two observations: a) I don't see a need for the E-bit, either the BFR-ID is visible in the ro= uting underlay (IGP) or not. Setting the E bit if there is none doesn't hel= p, not setting it when present seems to serve no purpose ? AP> The field in the hello tlv is BIER-prefix and not BIER-ID. A router par= ticipating in BIER forwarding but is not egress may not have a BIER-ID, but= will have BIER-prefix. Hence this flag helps. [Tony saiz:] I don't see how those two things relate to each other. You alw= ays have a prefix, yes, under that you have BFR-id per sub-domain and that = is basically your 'e' bit you can derive from underlay. The bit seems redu= ndant and may contradict the underlay easily b) sub-domains are forgotten unless the draft supports only a single, well-= known sub-domain (to be specified in the draft). BFR-id is per sub-domain a= nd so on. AP> This overlay model uses BIER-prefix alone which is unique across all th= e bier domains. Resolving BIER-prefix to sub-domain and BIER-ID is consider= ed as a functionality to be achieved with the information from underlay. [Tony saiz:] This does not compute. Different sub-domains will have differe= nt BFER-IDs for the _same_ prefix. I suggest to look @ TLV encodings in ISIS closely & think how you'll transl= ate per sub-domain (unless you reserve a well-known sub-domain for this wor= k but then you run a very limited overlay and that needs spelling out in th= e spec) n Tony --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF8A82eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 <= /p>

On 10/21/15 6:22 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote:

Read that up quickly and two observations:

 

a) I don't see a need for the E-bit, either the BFR-= ID is visible in the routing underlay (IGP) or not. Setting the E bit if th= ere is none doesn't help, not setting it when present seems to serve no pur= pose ?

AP> The field in the hello tlv is BIER-prefix and= not BIER-ID. A router participating in BIER forwarding but is not egress m= ay not have a BIER-ID, but will have BIER-prefix. Hence this flag helps.

[Tony saiz:] I don&= #8217;t see how those two things relate to each other. You always have a pr= efix, yes, under that you have BFR-id per sub-domain and that  is basically your ‘e’ bit you can derive from underlay. The bi= t seems redundant and may contradict the underlay easily

 

b) sub-domains are forgotten unless the draft suppor= ts only a single, well-known sub-domain (to be specified in the draft). BFR= -id is per sub-domain and so on.

AP> This overlay model uses BIER-prefix alone whi= ch is unique across all the bier domains. Resolving BIER-prefix to sub-doma= in and BIER-ID is considered as a functionality to be achieved with the inf= ormation from underlay.

[Tony saiz:] This d= oes not compute. Different sub-domains will have different BFER-IDs for the= _same_ prefix.

 

I suggest to look @= TLV encodings in ISIS closely & think how you’ll translate per s= ub-domain (unless you reserve a well-known sub-domain for this work but then you run a very limited overlay and that needs spelling out in the= spec)

 

n  Tony

 

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF8A82eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Thu Oct 22 01:42:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276971A8A51 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 01:42:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.46 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.46 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fM10n-7A0itO for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 01:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D60D1ACE77 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 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01:46:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B221A00B1 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 01:46:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cGmoxI8Ld4BP for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 01:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7C9E1A00B0 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 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08:46:27 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8817.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8817.cisco.com [10.60.202.88]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9M8kQ0H002232 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 22 Oct 2015 08:46:27 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:46:26 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <68C676AF-8D80-4093-A211-218D3D55E02A@cisco.com> References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 08:46:32 -0000 Hi Linda, I=E2=80=99ve read through this draft, but it is not clear to me what = your proposal is how to encode the BitString in the IP packet. There are = many different ways to do it, GRE, IPIP, UDP, etc=E2=80=A6 Ultimately, = the encapsulation is only relevant from node to node. The actual = forwarding of the packet is based on the BitString, not the = encapsulation. Why do you consider this to be more =E2=80=98lite=E2=80=99 = over MPLS?=20 Thx, Ice. > On 21 Oct 2015, at 02:47, wang.cui1@zte.com.cn wrote: >=20 >=20 > Dear all,=20 >=20 > A new draft about how to extend IGP protocol to implement BIER in = non-MPLS network is proposed, which is also named as BIER-Lite in this = draft.=20 > Wish you can pay attention to this draft and any comments are = welcome:)=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt=20= >=20 > Best Wishes,=20 > Linda Wang=20 >=20 > internet-drafts@ietf.org =E5=86=99=E4=BA=8E 2015/10/16 16:29:32: >=20 > > internet-drafts@ietf.org=20 > > 2015/10/16 16:29=20 > >=20 > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=20 > >=20 > > "Cui Wang" , "Cui Wang"=20 > > , "Zheng Zhang" ,=20 > > "Zheng Zhang" ,=20 > >=20 > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=20 > >=20 > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=20 > >=20 > > New Version Notification for = draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > A new version of I-D, draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Cui Wang and posted to the > > IETF repository. > >=20 > > Name: draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension > > Revision: 01 > > Title: OSPF Extension for BIER-Lite > > Document date: 2015-10-16 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 13 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang- > > bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-bier- > > lite-ospf-extension/ > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-bier-lite- > > ospf-extension-01 > > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-bier- > > lite-ospf-extension-01 > >=20 > > Abstract: > > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) = [I-D.ietf-bier-architecture] is > > an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding = through a > > "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain = any > > multicast related per-flow state. BIER also does not require any > > explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. Currently, = the > > data plane of BIER is apt to use BIER-MPLS encapsulation to = transmit > > multicast traffic. However, this document tries to propose a > > solution name BIER-Lite about how to extend OSPF protocol to = support > > BIER forwarding in non-MPLS underlay network instead of MPLS = underlay > > network. > >=20 > > = =20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >=20 > > The IETF Secretariat > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Thu Oct 22 02:06:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C081B2CBB for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 02:06:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.46 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.46 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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(envelope-from chen.ran@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <20151019022713.12650.22136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20151019022713.12650.22136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "bier@ietf.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: E05C73E5:E6129CD2-48257EE6:00310DBC; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: chen.ran@zte.com.cn Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:59:47 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-10-22 16:59:51, Serialize complete at 2015-10-22 16:59:51 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00316CC148257EE6_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t9M8xjHP005883 Archived-At: Cc: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn, Mahesh Sivakumar , hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Subject: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , 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by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-10-22 17:26:32, Serialize complete at 2015-10-22 17:26:32 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0033E09A48257EE6_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t9M9QW4k043732 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:32:26 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0033E09A48257EE6_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSWNlLA0KDQogIEluIHRoaXMgcHJvcG9zYWwsIHRoZSBCSUVSIGhlYWRlciBpc24ndCBlbmNh cHN1bGF0ZWQgaW4gdGhlIElQIHBhY2tldC4gDQpJbnN0ZWFkLCB0aGUgQklFUiBoZWFkZXIgaXMg 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lD4fcg-zKpdH for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 02:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A817D1B35C3 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 02:43:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4190; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445507010; x=1446716610; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=90H8GA5n0cS4YaQMGjXxBYUcIrkuNXBrJ2EJqNrFx8I=; 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(Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:43:28 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <68C676AF-8D80-4093-A211-218D3D55E02A@cisco.com> To: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:43:33 -0000 Linda, > In this proposal, the BIER header isn't encapsulated in the IP = packet. Instead, the BIER header is between the Ethernet Header and the = IP header. As for the Ether Type, here we can use 0101 to identify the = following is BIER header.=20 Is this documented in your draft? The BIER header you are referring to, is that the MPLS BIER header? If = you omit the MPLS label, there is no need for TTL and TOS? Thx, Ice. >=20 > Thanks for your comments :)=20 >=20 > Best Wishes,=20 > Linda >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Linda, >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve read through this draft, but it is not clear to me what = your proposal is how to encode the BitString in the IP packet. There are = many different ways to do it, GRE, IPIP, UDP, etc=E2=80=A6 Ultimately, = the encapsulation is only relevant from node to node. The actual = forwarding of the packet is based on the BitString, not the = encapsulation. Why do you consider this to be more =E2=80=98lite=E2=80=99 = over MPLS?=20 >=20 > Thx, >=20 > Ice. >=20 >=20 > > On 21 Oct 2015, at 02:47, wang.cui1@zte.com.cn wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > > Dear all,=20 > >=20 > > A new draft about how to extend IGP protocol to implement BIER in = non-MPLS network is proposed, which is also named as BIER-Lite in this = draft.=20 > > Wish you can pay attention to this draft and any comments are = welcome:)=20 > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt=20= > >=20 > > Best Wishes,=20 > > Linda Wang=20 > >=20 > > internet-drafts@ietf.org =E5=86=99=E4=BA=8E 2015/10/16 16:29:32: > >=20 > > > internet-drafts@ietf.org=20 > > > 2015/10/16 16:29=20 > > >=20 > > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=20 > > >=20 > > > "Cui Wang" , "Cui Wang"=20 > > > , "Zheng Zhang" ,=20 > > > "Zheng Zhang" ,=20 > > >=20 > > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=20 > > >=20 > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=20 > > >=20 > > > New Version Notification for = draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > A new version of I-D, draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt > > > has been successfully submitted by Cui Wang and posted to the > > > IETF repository. > > >=20 > > > Name: draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension > > > Revision: 01 > > > Title: OSPF Extension for BIER-Lite > > > Document date: 2015-10-16 > > > Group: Individual Submission > > > Pages: 13 > > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang- > > > bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt > > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-bier- > > > lite-ospf-extension/ > > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-bier-lite- > > > ospf-extension-01 > > > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-bier-= > > > lite-ospf-extension-01 > > >=20 > > > Abstract: > > > Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) = [I-D.ietf-bier-architecture] is > > > an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding = through a > > > "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to = maintain any > > > multicast related per-flow state. BIER also does not require = any > > > explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. Currently, = the > > > data plane of BIER is apt to use BIER-MPLS encapsulation to = transmit > > > multicast traffic. However, this document tries to propose a > > > solution name BIER-Lite about how to extend OSPF protocol to = support > > > BIER forwarding in non-MPLS underlay network instead of MPLS = underlay > > > network. > > >=20 > > > = =20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. > > >=20 > > > The IETF Secretariat > > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Oct 22 02:45:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169D31B35CE for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 02:45:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FpsbppPWKJuL for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 02:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CC71A00E8 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 02:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id C335031F8567E; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:45:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id t9M9jAZW034589; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:45:10 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 March 27, 2005 Message-ID: From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:46:11 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-10-22 17:45:10, Serialize complete at 2015-10-22 17:45:10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0035940348257EE6_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t9M9jAZW034589 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , "wu.bo@zte.com.cn" Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:45:42 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0035940348257EE6_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:06:58 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7CC4CBBE-20BB-429E-8AF6-0A29BDA063B1@cisco.com> References: To: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar \(naikumar\)" , "bier@ietf.org" , "wu.bo@zte.com.cn" , Eric C Rosen Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:07:03 -0000 Hi Sandy, Lets consider the following topology; ( A ) - ( B ) - ( C ) - ( D ) / \ ( I ) - ( J ) \ \ \ ( E ) - ( F ) - ( G ) - ( H ) Suppose I is sending multicast packets that are destined for D and H. = The BitString in the top BIER header will have the Bits set for D and H. = We include a path list that will take the packet to D via I-J-A-B-C, and = for H it is I-J-E-F-G. See below the BIER header that we need to = include. Level Node BitString 1 J {A,E} 2 A and E {B,F} 3 B and F {C,G} 4 C and G =20 J receives the packet from I and replicates according to Level 1, so to = A and E. A receives the packet and will send to B (I guess it will = ignore F?, or do you assume F was reset?) When B gets the packet, it = will forward to C AND G. This will cause duplication for H. How do you = prevent this? If this is prevented by resetting G in Level 3, if so, = where does the reset happen? If J is responsible for resetting G in = level 3, it has to processes each level in the BIER header before = replication, and, how does J know this will cause duplication on B for = level 3 to begin with? It is not J that calculated the path.=20 Thx, Ice. > On 22 Oct 2015, at 10:42, zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi Eric, hi Nagendra,=20 >=20 > I am sorry that the section 6.1 is not very clear.=20 > Please look at the example,=20 > ---10---- B --10---- C --10---- D=20 > | |=20 > | 50=20 > | |=20 > A--20-----E --20---- F=20 > | |=20 > | 50=20 > | |=20 > ---10---- G --10---- H --10--- K=20 >=20 > We suppose that the BitPositions for every nodes are:=20 > A(1),B(2),C(3),D(4),E(5),F(6),G(7),H(8),K(9)=20 > And suppose that the BSL is 9.=20 >=20 > The packet BIER header that is sent to D/F/K is encapsulated=20 > with 100101000.=20 >=20 > The path that we want the packet to travel is:=20 > E---F---C/H---D/K=20 >=20 > A is a ingress node, so the path list is escapsulated with:=20 > level1: E=20 > level2: F=20 > level3: C/H=20 > level4: D/K=20 >=20 > After OSPF/ISIS calculation, The BIER forwarding tables are:=20 > Node A:=20 > 000001110 B=20 > 000110000 E=20 > 111000000 G=20 >=20 > Node C:=20 > 111010011 B=20 > 000001000 D=20 > 000100000 F=20 >=20 > Node D:=20 > 111110111 C=20 >=20 > Node E:=20 > 111001111 A=20 > 000100000 F=20 >=20 > Node F:=20 > 001010011 E=20 > 000001100 C=20 > 110000000 H=20 >=20 > Node H:=20 > 001011111 G=20 > 000100000 F=20 > 100000000 K=20 >=20 > Node K:=20 > 011111111 H=20 >=20 > The header of packet is: 100101000=20 > Now the process on node A is:=20 > 1, A looks at the path list, and finds that E is=20 > next node, A picks out the routing item which=20 > nexthop is E from the forwarding table, get the=20 > item"000110000";=20 > Because the node in this level is only F, so we=20 > only pick out one item of F.=20 >=20 > 2, The header of packet"100101000" AND the=20 > item of E"000110000"; the result is "000100000";=20 > 3, Now INVERSE the result"000100000", will get=20 > "111011111". Let we use the header"100101000" AND=20 > the "111011111", we get the "Rev-enodes""100001000";=20 >=20 > 4, A is ready to forward the packet to E, according to=20 > the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"100101000"=20 > AND the item which nexthop is E"000110000", and OR=20 > the "Rev-enodes""100001000", the result is still=20 > "100101000", A sends the packet with the=20 > header"100101000" to E.=20 >=20 > The process on node E is:=20 > 5, When E receives the packet with header"100101000",=20 > E look at the path list, fine that F is next node.=20 > E pick out the routing item which nexthop is F=20 > from the forwarding table, get the item"000100000";=20 > Because the node in this level is only F, so we=20 > only pick out one item of F.=20 >=20 > 6, The header of packet"100101000" AND the=20 > item of F"000100000"; the result is "000100000";=20 >=20 > 7, Now INVERSE the result"000100000", will get=20 > "111011111". Let we use the header"100101000" AND=20 > the "111011111", we get the "Rev-enodes""100001000";=20 >=20 > 8, E is ready to forward the packet to F, according to=20 > the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"100101000"=20 > AND the item which nexthop is F"000100000", and OR=20 > the "Rev-enodes""100001000", the result is still=20 > "100101000", E sends the packet with the=20 > header"100101000" to F.=20 >=20 > The process on node F is:=20 > 9, When F receives the packet with header"100101000",=20 > At first F find that F itself is one of the egress=20 > nodes, after decapsulated and forwarded the packet=20 > out of BIER domain, F clears own bit in packet header,=20 > the header change to"100001000";=20 >=20 > 10, F looks at the path list, find that C and H are=20 > next nodes.=20 > F picks out the routing item which nexthop is C=20 > from the forwarding table, gets the item"000001100";=20 > and F picks out the routing item which nexthop is H=20 > from the forwarding table, gets the item"110000000";=20 >=20 > 11, The header of packet"100001000" AND the=20 > item of C"000001100"; the result is "000001000";=20 > And we use the header"100001000" AND the=20 > item of H"110000000"; the result is "100000000";=20 > Because there is two result, so the mix result is=20 > "100001000".=20 >=20 > 12, Now INVERSE the result"100001000", will get=20 > "011110111". Let we use the header"100001000" AND=20 > the "011110111", we get the "Rev-enodes""000000000";=20 >=20 > 13, F is ready to forward the packet to C, according to=20 > the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"100001000"=20 > AND the item which nexthop is C"000001100", and OR=20 > the "Rev-enodes""000000000", the result is"000001000",=20 > F then sends the packet with the header"000001000" to C.=20 >=20 > 14, similar to 13, F is ready to forward the packet to H,=20 > according to the rule defined in BIER-arch, the=20 > header"100001000" AND the item which nexthop is=20 > H"110000000", and OR the "Rev-enodes""000000000", the=20 > result is"100000000", F then send the packet with the=20 > header"100000000" to H.=20 >=20 > The process on node C is:=20 > 15, When the packet which header"000001000" reach C,=20 > C will find that D and K are next nodes. C picks out=20 > the routing item which nexthop is D from the forwarding=20 > table, gets the item"000001000"; And there is no routing=20 > item which nexthop is K in the forwarding table, so we=20 > only get one item which nexthop is C.=20 >=20 > 16, The header of packet"000001000" AND the item of=20 > C"000001000"; the result is "000001000";=20 >=20 > 17, Now INVERSE the result"000001000", will get=20 > "111110111". Let we use the header"000001000" AND=20 > the "111110111", we get the "Rev-enodes""000000000";=20 >=20 > 18, C is ready to forwards the packet to D, according to=20 > the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"000001000"=20 > AND the item which nexthop is C"000001000", and OR=20 > the "Rev-enodes""000000000", the result is"000001000",=20 > C then send the packet with the header"000001000" to D.=20 >=20 > The process on node H is:=20 > 19, similar to the process in node C, node H will send=20 > the packet with header"100000000" to K.=20 >=20 > The process on node D and K are:=20 > 20, When the packet reachs D and K, the process is follow=20 > the rules defined in BIER-arch, the packet is=20 > decapsulated and forwarded out of BIER domain.=20 >=20 > Thanks,=20 > best regards,=20 > Sandy=20 >=20 >=20 > Eric C Rosen =E5=86=99=E4=BA=8E 2015/10/21 = 22:29:30: >=20 > > On 10/21/2015 3:46 AM, zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn wrote: > >=20 > > > For Q2: The duplication will not happen. Because the packet = header > > > will change > > > from (D,F,K) to D while send from F to C; and the header will = change > > > from (D,F,K) > > > to K while send from F to H. So the packet will arrive node D and = K only > > > once. > >=20 > > I think the problem is that the text in section 6.1 is not very = clear,=20 > > and we can't really tell just what part of the algorithm causes the = bits=20 > > representing D, F, or K to be cleared. For instance, I'm really not=20= > > sure what "AND'ing with all the table items" means. It's hard to=20 > > understand how it is known at F that D is reached via C but K is = reached=20 > > via H. > >=20 > > Perhaps the example should be fleshed out a bit with the details of = just=20 > > how it is determined which bits get cleared when the packet is = forwarded. > >=20 > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Thu Oct 22 07:08:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2515E1A70FE for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FtPm8Qw5a0X4 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A87B11A700A for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:08:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=28979; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445522892; x=1446732492; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=epqxbsG98rnHtqhKeHU8Wh85Skj+nkZJzZBfuEHrnXM=; b=ZITbTnwlslIcFs33PNe+DVaQAf3CFDIa9fVZoutOPEuuia0l3zHT1Pqq 8+qooa3XNPQmsSWLILshzvXveia9nQeI8LDVX+LsTNIoHUFyvMIIIo6bw EW1EONf0fNr3oHDoRWTcpYGbjFFKMCFWJ+XKlTa6C5ioRk0Su6y4ZXf/E s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D1AQCc7ChW/4kNJK1UCoJpTYFDBr4VAQ2BWYYdAoFEOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqELgEBAQMBIQFVAgUNAQgRAwECAQ8RBwIDNBQIAQgCBAENBYgoCJRxnTIBkxEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYi3WEMEwRB4JmgUgFlisBjR2BWIQ/kh+DbwEfAQFCgkSBP3KFPYEGAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,182,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="200522491" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Oct 2015 14:08:11 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (xch-aln-015.cisco.com [173.36.7.25]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9ME8A3r012794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:08:10 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) by XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:07:50 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:07:49 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" , Eric C Rosen Thread-Topic: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRB+oWkiOoG0w+a0O5IGOtQSN78J50qtgAgAFCOACAAHC4AIABMVCAgAAX9oA= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:07:49 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.8.130913 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.20.5] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D24E63DDA9447naikumarciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , "wu.bo@zte.com.cn" Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:08:15 -0000 --_000_D24E63DDA9447naikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sandy, It appears from your description that each node will use the next hop from = respective level to identify the mask and rewrite for forwarding. Please le= t me know if I understood it right?. If so, I still think there will be dup= licate. Let us assume in your example, the topology have one more link from C to K.= But the traffic for receivers (D, F and K) are expected to flow as you men= tioned: " The path that we want the packet to travel is: E---F---C/H---D/K A is a ingress node, so the path list is escapsulated with: level1: E level2: F level3: C/H level4: D/K =1B$B!H=1B(B I think the below is applicable assuming there is no next hop K at level 4 = for C. " The process on node C is: 15, When the packet which header"000001000" reach C, C will find that D and K are next nodes. C picks out the routing item which nexthop is D from the forwarding table, gets the item"000001000"; And there is no routing item which nexthop is K in the forwarding table, so we only get one item which nexthop is C. =1B$B!H=1B(B With the new topology with link between C and K, When C receive it, it will= check level 4. Since both D and K are next hop in forwarding table, it run= s the same machinery and forward to K and D. H will perform the same and wi= ll forward to K. So K will receive duplicate packet. Could you explain how the duplication will be avoided here?. Thanks, Nagendra From: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" > Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 4:42 AM To: Eric C Rosen > Cc: "bier@ietf.org" >, Nagendra Kumar Nainar >= , "wu.bo@zte.com.cn" > Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for draft-zhang-bier-desig= ned-routing-00.txt Hi Eric, hi Nagendra, I am sorry that the section 6.1 is not very clear. Please look at the example, ---10---- B --10---- C --10---- D | | | 50 | | A--20-----E --20---- F | | | 50 | | ---10---- G --10---- H --10--- K We suppose that the BitPositions for every nodes are: A(1),B(2),C(3),D(4),E(5),F(6),G(7),H(8),K(9) And suppose that the BSL is 9. The packet BIER header that is sent to D/F/K is encapsulated with 100101000. The path that we want the packet to travel is: E---F---C/H---D/K A is a ingress node, so the path list is escapsulated with: level1: E level2: F level3: C/H level4: D/K After OSPF/ISIS calculation, The BIER forwarding tables are: Node A: 000001110 B 000110000 E 111000000 G Node C: 111010011 B 000001000 D 000100000 F Node D: 111110111 C Node E: 111001111 A 000100000 F Node F: 001010011 E 000001100 C 110000000 H Node H: 001011111 G 000100000 F 100000000 K Node K: 011111111 H The header of packet is: 100101000 Now the process on node A is: 1, A looks at the path list, and finds that E is next node, A picks out the routing item which nexthop is E from the forwarding table, get the item"000110000"; Because the node in this level is only F, so we only pick out one item of F. 2, The header of packet"100101000" AND the item of E"000110000"; the result is "000100000"; 3, Now INVERSE the result"000100000", will get "111011111". Let we use the header"100101000" AND the "111011111", we get the "Rev-enodes""100001000"; 4, A is ready to forward the packet to E, according to the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"100101000" AND the item which nexthop is E"000110000", and OR the "Rev-enodes""100001000", the result is still "100101000", A sends the packet with the header"100101000" to E. The process on node E is: 5, When E receives the packet with header"100101000", E look at the path list, fine that F is next node. E pick out the routing item which nexthop is F from the forwarding table, get the item"000100000"; Because the node in this level is only F, so we only pick out one item of F. 6, The header of packet"100101000" AND the item of F"000100000"; the result is "000100000"; 7, Now INVERSE the result"000100000", will get "111011111". Let we use the header"100101000" AND the "111011111", we get the "Rev-enodes""100001000"; 8, E is ready to forward the packet to F, according to the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"100101000" AND the item which nexthop is F"000100000", and OR the "Rev-enodes""100001000", the result is still "100101000", E sends the packet with the header"100101000" to F. The process on node F is: 9, When F receives the packet with header"100101000", At first F find that F itself is one of the egress nodes, after decapsulated and forwarded the packet out of BIER domain, F clears own bit in packet header, the header change to"100001000"; 10, F looks at the path list, find that C and H are next nodes. F picks out the routing item which nexthop is C from the forwarding table, gets the item"000001100"; and F picks out the routing item which nexthop is H from the forwarding table, gets the item"110000000"; 11, The header of packet"100001000" AND the item of C"000001100"; the result is "000001000"; And we use the header"100001000" AND the item of H"110000000"; the result is "100000000"; Because there is two result, so the mix result is "100001000". 12, Now INVERSE the result"100001000", will get "011110111". Let we use the header"100001000" AND the "011110111", we get the "Rev-enodes""000000000"; 13, F is ready to forward the packet to C, according to the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"100001000" AND the item which nexthop is C"000001100", and OR the "Rev-enodes""000000000", the result is"000001000", F then sends the packet with the header"000001000" to C. 14, similar to 13, F is ready to forward the packet to H, according to the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"100001000" AND the item which nexthop is H"110000000", and OR the "Rev-enodes""000000000", the result is"100000000", F then send the packet with the header"100000000" to H. The process on node C is: 15, When the packet which header"000001000" reach C, C will find that D and K are next nodes. C picks out the routing item which nexthop is D from the forwarding table, gets the item"000001000"; And there is no routing item which nexthop is K in the forwarding table, so we only get one item which nexthop is C. 16, The header of packet"000001000" AND the item of C"000001000"; the result is "000001000"; 17, Now INVERSE the result"000001000", will get "111110111". Let we use the header"000001000" AND the "111110111", we get the "Rev-enodes""000000000"; 18, C is ready to forwards the packet to D, according to the rule defined in BIER-arch, the header"000001000" AND the item which nexthop is C"000001000", and OR the "Rev-enodes""000000000", the result is"000001000", C then send the packet with the header"000001000" to D. The process on node H is: 19, similar to the process in node C, node H will send the packet with header"100000000" to K. The process on node D and K are: 20, When the packet reachs D and K, the process is follow the rules defined in BIER-arch, the packet is decapsulated and forwarded out of BIER domain. Thanks, best regards, Sandy Eric C Rosen > =1B$B On 10/21/2015 3:46 AM, zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn wrote: > > > For Q2: The duplication will not happen. Because the packet header > > will change > > from (D,F,K) to D while send from F to C; and the header will change > > from (D,F,K) > > to K while send from F to H. So the packet will arrive node D and K onl= y > > once. > > I think the problem is that the text in section 6.1 is not very clear, > and we can't really tell just what part of the algorithm causes the bits > representing D, F, or K to be cleared. For instance, I'm really not > sure what "AND'ing with all the table items" means. It's hard to > understand how it is known at F that D is reached via C but K is reached > via H. > > Perhaps the example should be fleshed out a bit with the details of just > how it is determined which bits get cleared when the packet is forwarded. > > --_000_D24E63DDA9447naikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-ID: <1400DF542D2F0346BCF47E4A651AB31B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sandy,

It appears from your description that each node will use the next hop = from respective level to identify the mask and rewrite for forwarding. Plea= se let me know if I understood it right?. If so, I still think there will b= e duplicate.

Let us assume in your example, the topology have one more link from C = to K. But the traffic for receivers (D, F and K) are expected to flow as yo= u mentioned:

"
The path that we want the packet = to travel is:
E---F---C/H---D/K 

A is a ingress node, so the path list = is escapsulated with:
level1: E 
level2: F 
level3: C/H 
level4: D/K 
=1B$B!H=1B(B

I think the below is applicable assuming there is no next hop K at lev= el 4 for C.
"
The process on node C is:&= nbsp;
15, When the packet which header"= 000001000" reach C, 
C will find that D and K are next node= s. C picks out 
the routing item which nexthop is D fr= om the forwarding 
table, gets the item"000001000&qu= ot;; And there is no routing 
item which nexthop is K in the forward= ing table, so we 
only get one item which nexthop is C.<= /font> 
=1B$B!H=1B(B

With the new topology with link between C and K, When C receive it, it= will check level 4. Since both D and K are next hop in forwarding table, i= t runs the same machinery and forward to K and D. H will perform the same a= nd will forward to K. So K will receive duplicate packet.

Could you explain how the duplication will be avoided here?.

Thanks,
Nagendra


From: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 at= 4:42 AM
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
Cc: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@i= etf.org>, Nagendra Kumar Nainar <naikumar@cisco.com>, "wu.bo@zte.com.cn" <wu.bo@zte.com.cn>
Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: New Version= Notification for draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt


Hi Eric, hi Nagendra,

    I am sorry that the sect= ion 6.1 is not very clear.
Please look at the example,      ---10---- B --10--= -- C --10---- D
     |     &n= bsp;              |
     |     &n= bsp;              50
     |     &n= bsp;              |
     A--20-----E --20--= -- F
     |     &n= bsp;              |
     |     &n= bsp;              50
     |     &n= bsp;              |
     ---10---- G --10--= -- H --10--- K

We suppose that the BitPositions for e= very nodes are:
A(1),B(2),C(3),D(4),E(5),F(6),G(7),H(8= ),K(9)
And suppose that the BSL is 9. =

The packet BIER header that is sent to= D/F/K is encapsulated
with 100101000.

The path that we want the packet to tr= avel is:
E---F---C/H---D/K

A is a ingress node, so the path list = is escapsulated with:
level1: E
level2: F
level3: C/H
level4: D/K

After OSPF/ISIS calculation, The BIER = forwarding tables are:
Node A:
000001110 B
000110000 E
111000000 G

Node C:
111010011 B
000001000 D
000100000 F

Node D:
111110111 C

Node E:
111001111 A
000100000 F

Node F:
001010011 E
000001100 C
110000000 H

Node H:
001011111 G
000100000 F
100000000 K

Node K:
011111111  H

The header of packet is: 100101000
Now the process on node A is: <= br> 1, A looks at the path list, and finds= that E is
next node, A picks out the routing ite= m which
nexthop is E from the forwarding table= , get the
item"000110000";
Because the node in this level is only= F, so we
only pick out one item of F.
2, The header of packet"100101000= " AND the
item of E"000110000"; the re= sult is "000100000";
3, Now INVERSE the result"0001000= 00", will get
"111011111". Let we use the = header"100101000" AND
the "111011111", we get the = "Rev-enodes""100001000";

4, A is ready to forward the packet to= E, according to
the rule defined in BIER-arch, the hea= der"100101000"
AND the item which nexthop is E"0= 00110000", and OR
the "Rev-enodes""100001= 000", the result is still
"100101000", A sends the pac= ket with the
header"100101000" to E.

The process on node E is:
5, When E receives the packet with hea= der"100101000",
E look at the path list, fine that F i= s next node.
E pick out the routing item which next= hop is F
from the forwarding table, get the ite= m"000100000";
Because the node in this level is only= F, so we
only pick out one item of F.
6, The header of packet"100101000= " AND the
item of F"000100000"; the re= sult is "000100000";

7, Now INVERSE the result"0001000= 00", will get
"111011111". Let we use the = header"100101000" AND
the "111011111", we get the = "Rev-enodes""100001000";

8, E is ready to forward the packet to= F, according to
the rule defined in BIER-arch, the hea= der"100101000"
AND the item which nexthop is F"0= 00100000", and OR
the "Rev-enodes""100001= 000", the result is still
"100101000", E sends the pac= ket with the
header"100101000" to F.

The process on node F is:
9, When F receives the packet with hea= der"100101000",
At first F find that F itself is one o= f the egress
nodes, after decapsulated and forwarde= d the packet
out of BIER domain, F clears own bit i= n packet header,
the header change to"100001000&qu= ot;;

10, F looks at the path list, find tha= t C and H are
next nodes.
F picks out the routing item which nex= thop is C
from the forwarding table, gets the it= em"000001100";
and F picks out the routing item which= nexthop is H
from the forwarding table, gets the it= em"110000000";

11, The header of packet"10000100= 0" AND the
item of C"000001100"; the re= sult is "000001000";
And we use the header"100001000&q= uot; AND the
item of H"110000000"; the re= sult is "100000000";
Because there is two result, so the mi= x result is
"100001000".

12, Now INVERSE the result"100001= 000", will get
"011110111". Let we use the = header"100001000" AND
the "011110111", we get the = "Rev-enodes""000000000";

13, F is ready to forward the packet t= o C, according to
the rule defined in BIER-arch, the hea= der"100001000"
AND the item which nexthop is C"0= 00001100", and OR
the "Rev-enodes""000000= 000", the result is"000001000",
F then sends the packet with the heade= r"000001000" to C.

14, similar to 13, F is ready to forwa= rd the packet to H,
according to the rule defined in BIER-= arch, the
header"100001000" AND the it= em which nexthop is
H"110000000", and OR the &qu= ot;Rev-enodes""000000000", the
result is"100000000", F then= send the packet with the
header"100000000" to H.

The process on node C is:
15, When the packet which header"= 000001000" reach C,
C will find that D and K are next node= s. C picks out
the routing item which nexthop is D fr= om the forwarding
table, gets the item"000001000&qu= ot;; And there is no routing
item which nexthop is K in the forward= ing table, so we
only get one item which nexthop is C.<= /font>

16, The header of packet"00000100= 0" AND the item of
C"000001000"; the result is = "000001000";

17, Now INVERSE the result"000001= 000", will get
"111110111". Let we use the = header"000001000" AND
the "111110111", we get the = "Rev-enodes""000000000";

18, C is ready to forwards the packet = to D, according to
the rule defined in BIER-arch, the hea= der"000001000"
AND the item which nexthop is C"0= 00001000", and OR
the "Rev-enodes""000000= 000", the result is"000001000",
C then send the packet with the header= "000001000" to D.

The process on node H is:
19, similar to the process in node C, = node H will send
the packet with header"100000000&= quot; to K.

The process on node D and K are:
20, When the packet reachs D and K, th= e process is follow
the rules defined in BIER-arch, the pa= cket is
decapsulated and forwarded out of BIER= domain.

Thanks,
best regards,
Sandy


Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net> =1B$B
> On 10/21/2015 3:46 AM, zhang= .zheng@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
> >      For Q2: The duplication will not happen. Beca= use the packet header
> > will change
> > from (D,F,K) to D while send from F to C; and the header will cha= nge
> > from (D,F,K)
> > to K while send from F to H. So the packet will arrive node D and= K only
> > once.
>
> I think the problem is that the text in section 6.1 is not very clear,=
> and we can't really tell just what part of the algorithm causes the bi= ts
> representing D, F, or K to be cleared.  For instance, I'm really = not
> sure what "AND'ing with all the table items" means.  It= 's hard to
> understand how it is known at F that D is reached via C but K is reach= ed
> via H.
>
> Perhaps the example should be fleshed out a bit with the details of ju= st
> how it is determined which bits get cleared when the packet is forward= ed.
>
>
--_000_D24E63DDA9447naikumarciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Oct 22 07:10:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35691ACCFF for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:10:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.759 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.759 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9ITWlJNSLP8 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) 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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:09:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151019022713.12650.22136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.2.150604 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.144] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_D24E657BFAC66rrahmanciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" , "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" , "Mahesh Sivakumar \(masivaku\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:10:09 -0000 --_004_D24E657BFAC66rrahmanciscocom_ Content-Type: 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Hi,

Repeating the same comments as for 00, the 2 following comments still = apply for sure
Regards,
Reshad.

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "chen.ran@zte.com.cn" <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 at= 4:59 AM
To: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@i= etf.org>
Cc: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, "Mahesh Sivakumar= (masivaku)" <masivaku@cisco.= com>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn&q= uot; <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn= >
Subject: [Bier] New Version Notific= ation for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt

Hi all=A3=AC
We have updated draft-chh-bier-bier-yang to 01 version.
The link is=A3=BA  https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft= -chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt
Any comments and suggestion are welcom= e. Thanks.
Regards,
Ran


internet-d= rafts@ietf.org =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/19 10:27:13:

> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  = internet-drafts@ietf.org
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB:  "Xianxian Dai"= ; <dai.xianxian@zte.com.cn>,
> "dai.xianxian@zte.com.= cn" <dai.xianxian@zt= e.com.cn>, "Zheng Zhang"
> <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, "fangwei hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>,
> "Fangwei Hu" <hu= .fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Ran Chen"
> <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>= , "Mahesh Sivakumar" <ma= sivaku@cisco.com>,
> "Zheng Zhang" <= zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, "Mahesh Sivakumar"
> <masivaku@cisco.com>, = "Ran Chen" <chen.ran@zt= e.com.cn>,
> =C8=D5=C6=DA:  2015/10/19 10:27 =
> =D6=F7=CC=E2: New Version Notification for draft-= chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Ran Chen and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:      draft-chh-bier-bier-yang
> Revision:   01
> Title:      YANG Data Model for BIER Protocol
> Document date:   2015-10-16
> Group:      Individual Submission
> Pages:      17
> URL:            h= ttps://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chh-bier-
> bier-yang-01.txt
> Status:         https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chh-bier-bier-yang/
> Htmlized:       https://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01
>
> Abstract:
>    This document defines a YANG data model for BIER configur= ation and
>    operation.
>
>                     =                      = ;                     &nb= sp;              
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> The IETF Secretariat
>
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Thu, 23 Jul 2015 20:46:20 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: References: To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" X-KeepSent: 10287296:9505B2D3-48257E8B:0045E836; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 20:46:17 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-07-23 20:46:20, Serialize complete at 2015-07-23 20:46:20 X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t6NCkKY5021098 Archived-At: CC: "draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , BIER Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , boundary="===============1403740600150487843==" Errors-To: bier-bounces@ietf.org Sender: BIER Return-Path: bier-bounces@ietf.org X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthSource: xhc-rcd-x12.cisco.com X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthMechanism: 10 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="B_3528353260_45477098" MIME-Version: 1.0 --B_3528353260_45477098 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3528353260_45482525" --B_3528353260_45482525 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Rahman,=20 Thanks for your comments, we will correct it based on your suggestion. Regards=20 Fangwei. "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: "BIER" 2015-07-23 19:43 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB "draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org" , =B3=AD=CB=CD "bier@ietf.org" =D6=F7=CC=E2 [Bier] Comments on draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-00 Hi authors,=20 * I tried to pyang the model in the draft and ran into quite a few errors. = I stopped after the 4 below (these are basic YANG errors, wasn=A1=AFt even using strict/ietf option) * Once you fix these errors please compile with =A1=AAietf option (sricter rule= s regarding ordering of statements, requiring description etc etc) * Please follow RFC6087 guidelines e.g. use of , etc=20 * Finally, please use the validator @ http://www.yangvalidator.com/ Regards,=20 Reshad.=20 ERRORS=20 No =A1=B0=A1=B1 for the contact ietf-bier.yang:34: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "contact", looking at L Extra =A1=B0 in "reference "draft-chen-bier-bier-yang-00=A1=B1; 59: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "reference", looking at d=20 Missing ; in key "sub-domain-id" 125: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "key", looking at l=20 Missing ; in type if:interface-ref 154: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "type", looking a= t }=20 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --B_3528353260_45482525 Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Rahman,

Thanks for your comments, we will corr= ect it based on your suggestion.

Regards
Fangwei.



"Reshad Rahm= an (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  "BIER&q= uot; <bier-bounces@ietf.org>

2015-07-23 19:43

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB
 "draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@too= ls.ietf.org" <draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org>,
=B3=AD=CB=CD
 "bier@ietf.org" <bier= @ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2
 [Bier] Comments on draft-chh-bier-= bier-yang-00





Hi authors,
  • I tried to pyang the model in the dra= ft and ran into quite a few errors. I stopped after the 4 below (these are = basic YANG errors, wasn=A1=AFt even using strict/ietf option)
  • Once you fix these errors please= compile with =A1=AAietf option (sricter rules regarding ordering of statem= ents, requiring description etc etc)
  • Please follow RFC6087 guidelines= e.g. use of <CODE BEGINS>, <CODE ENDS> etc
  • Finally, please use the validato= r @ http://www.yangvalidator.com/<= /li>

Regards,
Reshad.

ERRORS

No =A1=B0=A1=B1 for the contact ietf-bier.yang:34: error: unterminated st= atement definition for keyword "contact", looking at L

Extra =A1=B0 in "reference "dra= ft-chen-bier-bier-yang-00=A1=B1;
59: error: unterminated statement definit= ion for keyword "reference", looking at d

Missing ; in key "sub-domain-id"
125: error: unterminated statement defini= tion for keyword "key", looking at l

Missing ; in type if:interface-ref=
154: error: unterminated statement defini= tion for keyword "type", looking at }


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier=

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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX188YnI+DQomZ3Q7 ICZndDsgQklFUiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3Q8YnI+DQomZ3Q7ICZndDsgQklFUkBpZXRmLm9yZzxicj4N CiZndDsgJmd0OyBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2JpZXI8YnI+ DQomZ3Q7IDxicj4NCjwvdHQ+PC9mb250Pg0K --=_alternative 000417B948257EE7_=-- From nobody Thu Oct 22 18:08:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCB61ACC88; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:08:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, 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8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:08:17 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-10-23 09:08:20, Serialize complete at 2015-10-23 09:08:20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0006421548257EE7_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t9N18KaZ074331 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , BIER Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:08:48 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0006421548257EE7_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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id A2B5E1ACC87; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id B3DD635637F09; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:09:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id t9N19YsL078364; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:09:34 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <562812FE.6050702@nexenta.com> To: Caitlin Bestler MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 March 27, 2005 Message-ID: From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:10:35 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-10-23 09:09:34, Serialize complete at 2015-10-23 09:09:34 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00065F8848257EE7_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t9N19YsL078364 Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org, BIER Subject: Re: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for 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T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8APDlDjT0gNA for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0B51B3132 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 25790853E6993; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:49:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id t9N2lp2W033483; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:47:51 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 March 27, 2005 Message-ID: From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:48:53 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on 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cmhhcHMgdGhlIGV4YW1wbGUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGZsZXNoZWQgb3V0IGEgYml0IHdpdGggdGhlIGRl dGFpbHMNCm9mIGp1c3QgPGJyPg0KJmd0OyAmZ3Q7IGhvdyBpdCBpcyBkZXRlcm1pbmVkIHdoaWNo IGJpdHMgZ2V0IGNsZWFyZWQgd2hlbiB0aGUgcGFja2V0IGlzDQpmb3J3YXJkZWQuPGJyPg0KJmd0 OyAmZ3Q7IDxicj4NCiZndDsgJmd0OyA8L3R0PjwvZm9udD4NCg== --=_alternative 000F5F4148257EE7_=-- From nobody Thu Oct 22 23:38:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB621B2C89; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:38:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.284 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.284 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DC_GIF_UNO_LARGO=2.176, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7_8Yf-9K_0nj; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42A11B2C48; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.168.119]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTP id DA3DF3F9BDD52; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:38:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 20C726709AC52; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:38:27 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id t9N6cCbp034030; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:38:12 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from chen.ran@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: References: <20151019022713.12650.22136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: EECA5AF4:8C172B4E-48257EE7:00053E7B; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: chen.ran@zte.com.cn Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:38:09 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-10-23 14:38:12, Serialize complete at 2015-10-23 14:38:12 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=_related 0024750D48257EE7_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t9N6cCbp034030 Archived-At: Cc: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" , "bier@ietf.org" , BIER , "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" , "Mahesh Sivakumar \(masivaku\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 06:38:37 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_related 0024750D48257EE7_= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 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(HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2015 08:47:11 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8817.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8817.cisco.com [10.60.202.88]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9N8lBDL009670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:47:11 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:47:10 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5FA669BC-FA91-4545-AE4C-669B1DC4C8CE@cisco.com> References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <68C676AF-8D80-4093-A211-218D3D55E02A@cisco.com> To: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , BIER Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:47:16 -0000 Linda, > Sorry for not documenting this in this draft, maybe I should add a = section to describe this clearly :)=20 This is an OSPF draft, I would not expect you to document it there ;-) > As for the BIER header in the BIER-Lite scenario, we need redefine a = new BIER header, which includes some more parameters,such as = BSL,sub-domain and SI information as well as TTL and TOS information,to = the BIER header defined in BIER-MPLS draft.=20 You also have to allocate a new ethertype, like IPv4, IPv6 and MPLS = since they all have their own. You can=E2=80=99t rely on the first = nibble as a differentiator. But before you do this, why do you think = this is any simpler compared to using a MPLS label, that sits in front = of the MPLS BIER header? If the BSL, sub-domain and SI will each get = their own field, you made it more complicated to process in forwarding. = The advantage of MPLS is that the 20 bit value is an indirection that = indirectly encodes the SI, sub-domain and BSL. So with a single lookup = in forwarding you can find the table you need to use to forward the = packet. Even if there would be a use-case to define a new ethertype to encode a = BIER header, I would push for a similar approach to MPLS, having an = indirection that identifies the BIFT table. What have we gained if we = would do that? I think the only issue we have MPLS is the name ;-) Thx, Ice. From nobody Fri Oct 23 02:13:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A791B338A for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3iOtWNwKtTn for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8022F1B2D7B for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:13:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1784; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445591630; x=1446801230; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=/jLch/J9rQG1q8ceC74GXCetw6eN1WhT2hHCtCMIeW0=; b=gUscSsQKNuQkR2sNrmwZjO8UG1f6aaOAUWK8/K0m4SlK2PeNMVUcx5ih SPiXXlw2SV1bnifi4oj/1014e0xqM6n0qhgGOcCJ20gt9NhcCWqbiURn+ e+R4oGHwDUDzocDsaHF/yyd22Te4mZ+UUGXNeCQncxPM1QPJTx1gt1KGq I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0DrAgA5+SlW/xbLJq1erjIBAQEBAgUBgQ2TVAENgVmGHQKBfRQBAQEBAQEBgQqEMwEBAwEjVAIFCwsaAiYCAlcGLogNCLJYkmoBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYgSKFDoJXgm6EWjMHgmkxgRQBBJYrjR6BWJZeg3AfAQFCgkSBQTyGdwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,186,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="612347926" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2015 09:13:47 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8817.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8817.cisco.com [10.60.202.88]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9N9Dk5g026380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:13:46 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: <5627EA56.1060602@nexenta.com> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:13:46 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C246FC2-912B-4DFF-98C0-F526696B03D4@cisco.com> References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3C402@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <5627B811.2060805@nexenta.com> <1D31FDA1-0283-4AB6-8DCA-0E39FA0C58AD@cisco.com> <5627EA56.1060602@nexenta.com> To: Caitlin Bestler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:13:52 -0000 Caitlin, > Anyone writing or managing a cluster-wide network/virtualization = management tool will want multicast > to be nothing more than the logical union of unicast addressing. If I = move a VM to a new host it is hard BIER is a perfect fit for that as the Bits in the packet follow unicast = routing. > enough to logically rewire the network so that the unicast traffic = reaches the new location. The last thing > that would be wanted would be to have to separately rewire the network = for multicast. I don=E2=80=99t think that will be necessary. If you allocate your IP = addresses nicely, you can even derive the BFR-id from the lower 2 octets = of the IP address, so its always in sync.=20 >=20 > Of course it is most accurate just to say that the VLAN/VXLAN is what = is rewired, and both unicast and > multicast addressing conforms to the new VLAN/VXLAN wiring. >=20 >>=20 >>> Already having things working without MPLS is a horrendous technical = advantage. >> BIER uses MPLS as indirection into a BIFT, that=E2=80=99s it. The = allocation and distribution of that =E2=80=98Label=E2=80=99, is all = within the boundaries of the BIER procedures we defined. Effectively we = are not doing any MPLS based forwarding. Would it help is we rename the = 20 bits into 'BIFT ID'? > Don't analyze this in the context of BIER. Cluster management exists = independently of BIER. > If you want it to change you'd need an explanation that made sense = without having to explain > BIER internals. If support for multicast is too complex their solution = will be to broadcast all > multicast packets to the entire VLAN/VXLAN. Yes, that is why many people like BIER, it much simpler compared to = traditional multicast.=20 Thx, Ice.= From nobody Fri Oct 23 02:52:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8711B33BF; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:52:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vGHMR14wxj_b; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx6.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A5B1B33BC; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.168.119]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTP id 378D9D023A20C; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:40:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id AD7491DDB0C4B; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:52:19 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id t9N9pbQW077563; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:51:37 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from wang.cui1@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <5FA669BC-FA91-4545-AE4C-669B1DC4C8CE@cisco.com> References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <68C676AF-8D80-4093-A211-218D3D55E02A@cisco.com> <5FA669BC-FA91-4545-AE4C-669B1DC4C8CE@cisco.com> To: IJsbrand Wijnands MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 3DD3A3E2:6B49F928-48257EE7:00316C9F; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:51:40 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b=IDIQxvsra0FaNfUDyomJkhsOdengwEXfo+5GU1R7EVnW26u7wJUF89Y0 JyRja6e5C2uHOt/OV4mWkx6IjT2Ck9pmMBuVdSIYXhNL/d9W7X2BBInTp IMmtnVn7CBAK9EzasrfDDI/MljECXRtzfqI0EAq514syPjGn6bYj+LCSs 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0DrAgClCCpW/xbLJq1erjMBAQEBAgUBgQ2TVAENgVmGHQKBfRQBAQEBAQEBgQqEMwEBAwEjVAIFCwsaAiYCAlc0iA0Isl2SZwEBAQEBBQEBAQEBAQEBG4EihQ6CV4JuhFozBxeCUjGBFAEEliuNHoFYll6DcB8BAUKCRIFBPIZ3AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,186,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="630458702" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Oct 2015 10:16:41 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8817.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8817.cisco.com [10.60.202.88]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9NAGeWk028097 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:16:41 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:16:40 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <68C676AF-8D80-4093-A211-218D3D55E02A@cisco.com> <5FA669BC-FA91-4545-AE4C-669B1DC4C8CE@cisco.com> To: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:16:46 -0000 Hi Linda, > 1. BIER-Lite is apt to be used in the non-MPLS network . In other = words, BIER-Lite is a complementary of BIER-MPLS solution. If the = network has MPLS capability, using MPLS-BIER is great. Otherwise, = considering using BIER-Lite may be a choice. As you mentioned, the = advantage of BIER-MPLS label is an indirection that indirectly encodes = the SI, sub-domain and BSL. So with a single lookup in forwarding you = can find the table you need to use to forward the packet. But in fact, = as for advanced chips, it's not a problem to hit the BIFT once according = to three direct parameters(the SI, sub-domain and BSL.) So the = forwarding in BIER-Lite seems not the key issue.=20 Sure, but hard coding these fields is not very flexible for HW, what = happens if we want to increase a field size or add a new one? > 2. The other understanding way is that, we can use BIER-Lite in = simple environment(such as relatively small data centers), where only = one sub-domain, only on Set, even if only one BSL. Under this = environment, operators can deploy BIER-Lite to implement BIER.=20 The only different with MPLS is that we allocate a 20 bit value and = announce it in the IGP. The IGP announcement does not go away in your = proposal as you still announce the BIER capability, SI and Sub-domain. = The MPLS label is dynamically allocated, an operator does not have to = assign it. Forwarding needs to do a looking on either a 20 bit value = with MPLS or a 3 tuple in your proposal to find the BIFT. Removing the = 20 bit value from the IGP announcement does not make it =E2=80=98lite=E2=80= =99.. Thx, Ice. From nobody Fri Oct 23 23:55:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD0D1A01C6 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 23:55:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pq7gLldWCJz1 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 23:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94C261A0149 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 23:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-41-562acaa6e871 Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 19.83.32596.6AACA265; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 02:02:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 02:55:30 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Thread-Index: AdENirA0+yhMeV09SPGdNQ87yq3jAg== Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 06:55:29 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF964D@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF964Deusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn+7yU1phBrO7eCyWztjD5MDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujF09rawF5/QqtjYcYWlg3K3ZxcjJISFgInHozgtGCFtM4sK9 9WxdjFwcQgJHGSUa105kgXCWM0rM23GbDaSKTcBC4vK3p8wgtoiAssT5Q43sXYwcHMIChhIN s8QhwmYSG++ugyrRk9iw9ByYzSKgKvHt8jlWEJtXwFfix+XVYCMZgRZ/P7WGCcRmFhCXuPVk PhPEQQISS/acZ4awRSVePv7HCmErSUxaCjGHWSBfouX/HzaImYISJ2c+YZnAKDQLyahZSMpm ISmDiOtILNj9iQ3C1pZYtvA1M4x95sBjJmTxBYzsqxg5SotTy3LTjQw2MQID/5gEm+4Oxj0v LQ8xCnAwKvHwJthqhQmxJpYVV+YeYpTgYFYS4TWU0A4T4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIk zrt/yf1QIYH0xJLU7NTUgtQimCwTB6dUA2Pm2kMnghzNvG+/WKk7+YftbyP1O8sK6iPtpph9 lCjxq1iqWfq3oGuX6ZK7d0U2Or4rXZP1ds6bqzqZk3/7z/rWJzWzwWzR7sagGSY/Dih+bPOX +22va8/Tpi63vGrZVqfNOaoC+lMu5ffuW+1mxJ04reVyiMX/NYdDzdoFfuevVfft0l8zabUS S3FGoqEWc1FxIgA2hmWJeAIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Comments on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 06:55:34 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF964Deusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quite an extensive body of work by now. Only comment on Page 4: draft says = that this spec does not take sub-domains into account. Further content of t= he draft challenges this statement ;-) thanks --- tony We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the= complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i= s not true. -Robert Wilensky --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF964Deusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Quite an extensive body of work by now. Only comment= on Page 4: draft says that this spec does not take sub-domains into accoun= t. Further content of the draft challenges this statement ;-)

 

thanks

 

--- tony

 

W= e’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produc= e the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.

—Robert Wilensky

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF964Deusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Fri Oct 23 23:55:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B181D1A0149 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 23:55:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16hEmbHo8exD for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 23:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91DB51A00EC for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 23:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-27-562abe87cae1 Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 1F.70.26730.78EBA265; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:11:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 02:55:30 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comments on the BIER ping draft Thread-Index: AdENsEjVEH3c7sGhST2XAbI7iOicjA== Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 06:55:30 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF9653@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF9653eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoG77Pq0wg7kTdCyWztjD5MDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujMOL3zIWnNKpeNY4kaWB8bNaFyMnh4SAicT8B00sELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hASOMkrs/r6OEcJZzigx510TE0gVm4CFxOVvT5lBbBEBZYnzhxrZQWxhAU2J0wdX QsX1JN6se8wGY29dsBVsA4uAqsTOLw1gcV4BX4nDn26B1TMCbf5+ag3YfGYBcYlbT+YzQVwk ILFkz3lmCFtU4uXjf6wQtpLEpKXnWCHq8yW+TIK4h1dAUOLkzCcsExiFZiEZNQtJ2SwkZRBx HYkFuz+xQdjaEssWvmaGsc8ceMyELL6AkX0VI0dpcWpZbrqR4SZGYOgfk2Bz3MG44JPlIUYB DkYlHt4EW60wIdbEsuLK3EOMEhzMSiK8hhLaYUK8KYmVValF+fFFpTmpxYcYpTlYlMR55824 HyokkJ5YkpqdmlqQWgSTZeLglGpg1FbPuxT5WJMhM8fbaPGO/OL65WazH2Yl+IRbtrkfimmZ etbtRV7HjPuHLKsWpjsuflUqJZ+e+tjM3eKuW4CKVkIyw8f7NpGR9u/leo99vX070bP/ze8t LsfnzZ9Rfsb6APdk9oX2aU7XM75trp4nFq6l4nT96vzslT7VEfV208+WKnlMOditxFKckWio xVxUnAgA4t5tsXkCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comments on the BIER ping draft X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 06:55:34 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF9653eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3.3.6: it's worth a discussion whether it's safer and more natural to retu= rn BFR-prefix here as advertised in IGP with the BIER attributes attached. = I do think so. 3.3.7: why is this NOT following 3.3.4 format albeit referring to it. We wi= ll have unnumbered cases as well or not ? 4.1: where is the router alert? Is there a v6 frame within the BIER OAM fra= me or is a IPv6 encapsulation containing BIER presumed somehow ? 4,4 and 4.5 must be more specific about the bitmasks used to decide and the= ones sent back in terms of processing, i.e. is the precise mask received u= sed or the mask after processing (removing incoming bits, applying rules pe= r e.g. -te- DNR bits and so on). Otherwise the bitmask interpretation may d= iffer between receiver and sender and may lower significantly the usefulnes= s of the OAM procedures. thanks --- tony We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the= complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i= s not true. -Robert Wilensky --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF9653eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

3.3.6:  it’s worth a discussion whether i= t’s safer and more natural to return BFR-prefix here as advertised in= IGP with the BIER attributes attached. I do think so.

3.3.7: why is this NOT following 3.3.4 format albeit= referring to it. We will have unnumbered cases as well or not ?

4.1: where is the router alert? Is there a v6 frame = within the BIER OAM frame or is a IPv6 encapsulation containing BIER presum= ed somehow ?

4,4 and 4.5 must be more specific about the bitmasks= used to decide and the ones sent back in terms of processing, i.e. is the = precise mask received used or the mask after processing (removing incoming = bits, applying rules per e.g. –te- DNR bits and so on). Otherwise the bitmask interpretation may differ betwe= en receiver and sender and may lower significantly the usefulness of the &n= bsp;OAM procedures.  

 

thanks

 

--- tony

 

W= e’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produc= e the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.

—Robert Wilensky

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF9653eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Sun Oct 25 20:50:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974451A9101 for ; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:49:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jNSpIqRgGRFU for ; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx6.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456571B362C for ; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.168.119]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTP id 8274CF35EB6FE for ; 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Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:03:19 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) To: antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4 March 27, 2005 Message-ID: From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:03:01 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-10-26 15:03:07, Serialize complete at 2015-10-26 15:03:07 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0026C1D448257EEA_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn t9Q73J2r059605 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-prz-bier-bfrid-assignment-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:10:22 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0026C1D448257EEA_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi Tony, The BFR-id allocation of IGP is efficient and reasonable. For the uniformation with BIER-Arch, I have a suggestion: In the new version of BIER-Arch, section 6.10, for different BFR may use different BitStringLength, there are two types of BSL, Imposition BSL and Disposition BSL. In general the Disposition BSL is a combination, and include the Imposition BSL. In my opinion, in one sub-domain, the more unified of BSL, the more efficient forwarding there will be. So the BSL of forwarding should be uniform as much as possible. Since DR of IGP collects all the information of BIER nodes, DR can also collect the Disposition BSLs of every node. The DR selects the most resonable and popular BSL in one domain, and notifies every node the BSL value. Then the major nodes will all use the negotiatory BSL to forward multicast flow. Best regards, Sandy --=_alternative 0026C1D448257EEA_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi Tony,

    The BFR-id allocation of IGP is efficient and reasonable. For
the uniformation with BIER-Arch, I have a suggestion:

    In the new version of BIER-Arch, section 6.10, for different
BFR may use different BitStringLength, there are two types of BSL,
Imposition BSL and Disposition BSL. In general the Disposition BSL
is a combination, and include the Imposition BSL.

    In my opinion, in one sub-domain, the more unified of BSL,
the more efficient forwarding there will be. So the BSL of
forwarding should be uniform as much as possible.

    Since DR of IGP collects all the information of BIER nodes, DR
can also collect the Disposition BSLs of every node. The DR selects
the most resonable and popular BSL in one domain, and notifies every
node the BSL value. Then the major nodes will all use the negotiatory
BSL to forward multicast flow.

Best regards,
Sandy
 --=_alternative 0026C1D448257EEA_=-- From nobody Mon Oct 26 04:21:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA63A1B2B76 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 04:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id trbMO-o-5D6n for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 04:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F16821B2B73 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=648; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445858508; x=1447068108; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=jhPlqhIQNPmJ/C3RTMM1evsnbM8PofzvrBA13MTiFSI=; b=Gjk7MUwXUWT8iDz2+iKj+BcxHd95MrrGZpTGBaMXUpnpqU+vrG7Xnh0x 07pBFUfAuBQFsG8SvTHtkeDKEzm2wbAKEUwYtkKNmRxTfXLxG8aNEt0t0 bBT6EvVUB0fZOpSOBZkevfUmvSuTMW+Q1aacr2YI4vkAeWo1zEU7Cq9bb Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0ByCgAFDC5W/xbLJq1erkABAQEBAQEFAYENlUiGHQKBdwEBAQEBAYELhDMBAQQjVAIQCxoCJgICVzSIFbIrkgEBAQEBAQUBAQEBAQEBARuBIoUOgleCboRaMwcXglIxgRQBBJY2jSKcL2OCRIFAPYdMAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,201,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="605919980" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 26 Oct 2015 11:21:46 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-149-0-100.cisco.com (dhcp-10-149-0-100.cisco.com [10.149.0.100]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9QBLjWN022019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:21:46 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:21:45 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <68C676AF-8D80-4093-A211-218D3D55E02A@cisco.com> <5FA669BC-FA91-4545-AE4C-669B1DC4C8CE@cisco.com> To: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:21:50 -0000 Dear Linda, > //Linda: This understanding way just supposes the simplest case:) In = this case, the whole BIER-MPLS Encapsulation sub-TLV can be removed. = Additionally, when each BFR supports several BSL, then BIER-MPLS = Encapsulation sub-TLV will appear several times. But if there has = BIER-Lite, not just save 20 bits :) So, I try to say BIER-Lite is a = relatively 'lite' non-MPLS solution :)=20 I think it is misleading to call this BIER lite, just based on the fact = you are not including the MPLS TLV in OSPF. I don=E2=80=99t think = anybody considers carrying the MPLS TLV in OSPF as heavy in any way ;-) Thx, Ice.= From nobody Mon Oct 26 10:53:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA901B504B for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dU7K1OUNW9Iv for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 664911B5048 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-eb-562e07cb8719 Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E5.22.32596.BC70E265; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:00:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:53:43 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" Thread-Topic: comments on draft-prz-bier-bfrid-assignment-00 Thread-Index: AQHRD71g7zMvOOpq6kirMuQUdxX3wJ5+Dmbw Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:53:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA244@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA244eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiO5pdr0wg8efrCyWztjDZHF5dyOT A5PHkiU/mTzW7PvBEsAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJWxaPYD1oJ/IRVfFu9ja2D869XFyMkhIWAi sf7lJUYIW0ziwr31bF2MXBxCAkcYJZ4e28gI4SxnlPi5+iI7SBWbgIXE5W9PmUFsEQFTiZs7 esHizALKEp83T2ICsYUFrCVOH/zD2sXIAVRjI7GvrRSi3Eii5fUiNpAwi4CqxPs3YFN4BXwl 1n36yQZiCwkESdy5vgxsCqdAsMSWabfA4oxAt30/tYYJYpO4xK0n85kgbhaQWLLnPDOELSrx 8vE/VghbUWJf/3Soy/Il5jbOZ4fYJShxcuYTlgmMorOQjJqFpGwWkjKIuI7Egt2f2CBsbYll C18zw9hnDjxmQhZfwMi+ipGjtDi1LDfdyGATIzCmjkmw6e5g3PPS8hCjAAejEg+vwTadMCHW xLLiytxDjBIczEoivKz2emFCvCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTEefcvuR8qJJCeWJKanZpa kFoEk2Xi4JRqYFRmf1/9rWWWhFLJ6ZpHbH4y6XYsSSWd8dt+uayTTJV/MuP9r2tq97q7+t89 Xbb+U9ybOP8GWZGSnIMv3tybFMaw6Gywo6yN7y2e5fO4F+ff27ijrdrgxCp9ZW1hp7RPHY/f Gd12E120epbJwpWrOv996N7aaOGkOrOxfN8ixaSFUlJphv/v+CmxFGckGmoxFxUnAgCj3RSf pQIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-prz-bier-bfrid-assignment-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:53:49 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA244eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tony, The BFR-id allocation of IGP is efficient and reasonable. [Tony saiz:] thanks, I let the draft expire but I see already multiple part= ies asking for automatic BFR-id assignment and beside a centralized approac= h such an IGP election has its charm so I guess it will revive in its time. For the uniformation with BIER-Arch, I have a suggestion: In the new version of BIER-Arch, section 6.10, for different BFR may use different BitStringLength, there are two types of BSL, Imposition BSL and Disposition BSL. In general the Disposition BSL is a combination, and include the Imposition BSL. In my opinion, in one sub-domain, the more unified of BSL, the more efficient forwarding there will be. So the BSL of forwarding should be uniform as much as possible. Since DR of IGP collects all the information of BIER nodes, DR can also collect the Disposition BSLs of every node. The DR selects the most resonable and popular BSL in one domain, and notifies every node the BSL value. Then the major nodes will all use the negotiatory BSL to forward multicast flow. [Tony saiz:] a 'most reasonable and popular' is not much of a criteria to e= ver get consensus in anything from my experience ;-) The stuff I wrote was picking the largest supported by e'one since those wi= ll be always most efficient in terms of minimizing copies n Tony --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA244eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Tony,

    The BFR-id allocation of IGP is efficient and reas= onable.

 

[Tony saiz:] thanks= , I let the draft expire but I see already multiple parties asking for auto= matic BFR-id assignment and beside a centralized approach such an IGP election has its charm so I guess it will revive in its time. =

 

For the uniformation with BIER-Arch, I have a suggestion:

    In the new version of BIER-Arch, section 6.10, for= different
BFR may use different BitStringLength, there are two types of BS= L,
Imposition BSL and Disposition BSL. In general the Disposition B= SL
is a combination, and include the Imposition BSL.

    In my opinion, in one sub-domain, the more unified= of BSL,
the more efficient forwarding there will be. So the BSL of
forwarding should be uniform as much as possible.

    Since DR of IGP collects all the information of BI= ER nodes, DR
can also collect the Disposition BSLs of every node. The DR sele= cts
the most resonable and popular BSL in one domain, and notifies e= very
node the BSL value. Then the major nodes will all use the negoti= atory
BSL to forward multicast flow.

[Tony saiz:] a R= 16;most reasonable and popular’ is not much of a criteria to ever get= consensus in anything from my experience ;-)

 

The stuff I wrote w= as picking the largest supported by e’one since those will be always = most efficient in terms of minimizing copies

 

n  Tony

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA244eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Mon Oct 26 11:28:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27BD51B5071 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:28:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w3IIo1dEqn_T for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B99C1B5068 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:28:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8605; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445884131; x=1447093731; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=PwbP/ppSM9GtKgLK4YdZpd+X5ym4YmHTEU6uAX2IQ7A=; b=BaH7xRexvwWqD7d4QB2bNI5Q7R9wfPxtlD7aHa+u+XYOoiklTKfvOGHg Yd4xD/Tp8x4ONHlS0R336ZReBOLn3ff7DVlTPD59N7yBerl5SAxUF89rF xzKH53Z+2ZEK5mv2i/oB2eMpI0z3REN4BWnSj6Es1C7fudQ0ajBBoJw5Q w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0ACAgBBcC5W/5pdJa1egmlNVHW6HoQhAQ2BWoYdAoE2OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEMwEBBC06IgIBCEYyJQEBBAGIQsU7AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGIt1hGkrAoQsBY1RiGUBjSGBWYQ/lhYBHwEBQoQDhwSBBgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,201,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="44979237" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 26 Oct 2015 18:28:49 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (xch-aln-013.cisco.com [173.36.7.23]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9QISnKK012608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:28:49 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:28:26 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:28:26 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Antoni Przygienda , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] comments on the BIER ping draft Thread-Index: AdENsEjVEH3c7sGhST2XAbI7iOicjACdD4kA Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:28:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF9653@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF9653@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.2.150604 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.20.13] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D253C6F0A9D88naikumarciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on the BIER ping draft X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:28:54 -0000 --_000_D253C6F0A9D88naikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI Tony, Thanks for the comments. Please see below.. 3.3.6: it's worth a discussion whether it's safer and more natural to retu= rn BFR-prefix here as advertised in IGP with the BIER attributes attached. = I do think so. I think yes. BFR-Prefix will be advertised by all BFRs. We curren= tly have "Routable Address" in the responding TLV. I think we can replace i= t with BFR-Prefix. 3.3.7: why is this NOT following 3.3.4 format albeit referring to it. We wi= ll have unnumbered cases as well or not ? The control plane information will help populate the egress inte= rface and the downstream neighbor to which the packet is targetted which ca= n be used to populate both Downstream Address and Downstream Interface Addr= ess. But Upstream Interface TLV only need to carry the incoming interface a= ddress. You are right that we need to add support for unnumbered in 3.3.7. We will = include the relevant Address type. Please let us know if this will help or = if it needs more clarity by including the explanation on address format in = 3.3.7. 4.1: where is the router alert? Is there a v6 frame within the BIER OAM fra= me or is a IPv6 encapsulation containing BIER presumed somehow ? I am not sure which v6 frame you are referring. When the received= label stack carries Router Alert label (label=3D1), it will punt for OAM p= rocessing. 4,4 and 4.5 must be more specific about the bitmasks used to decide and the= ones sent back in terms of processing, i.e. is the precise mask received u= sed or the mask after processing (removing incoming bits, applying rules pe= r e.g. -te- DNR bits and so on). Otherwise the bitmask interpretation may d= iffer between receiver and sender and may lower significantly the usefulnes= s of the OAM procedures. We tried differentiating the BitString before and after applying= the forwarding rule by referring BitString in Header-H (before applying) a= nd Egress BitString (after applying). I will check these sections to see if= anything is misleading. We will include the comments in next revision. Thanks, Nagendra --_000_D253C6F0A9D88naikumarciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <8BAA111242CE9B4D87C7DE1F9E37B616@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HI Tony,

Thanks for the comments. Please see below..


3.3.6:  it’s worth a discussion whether i= t’s safer and more natural to return BFR-prefix here as advertised in= IGP with the BIER attributes attached. I do think so.

<Nagendra>I think yes. BFR-Prefix will be advertised by all BFRs= . We currently have “Routable Address” in the responding TLV. I= think we can replace it with BFR-Prefix.

3.3.7: why is this NOT following 3.3.4 format albeit= referring to it. We will have unnumbered cases as well or not ?

<Nagendra> The control plane information will help populate the = egress interface and the downstream neighbor to which the packet is targett= ed which can be used to populate both Downstream Address and Downstream Int= erface Address. But Upstream Interface TLV only need to carry the incoming interface address. 

You are right that we need to add support for unnumbered in 3.3.7. We = will include the relevant Address type. Please let us know if this will hel= p or if it needs more clarity by including the explanation on address forma= t in 3.3.7.

4.1: where is the router alert? Is there a v6 frame = within the BIER OAM frame or is a IPv6 encapsulation containing BIER presum= ed somehow ?

<Nagendra>I am not sure which v6 frame you are referring. When t= he received label stack carries Router Alert label (label=3D1), it will pun= t for OAM processing.

4,4 and 4.5 must be more specific about the bitmasks= used to decide and the ones sent back in terms of processing, i.e. is the = precise mask received used or the mask after processing (removing incoming = bits, applying rules per e.g. –te- DNR bits and so on). Otherwise the bitmask interpretation may differ betwe= en receiver and sender and may lower significantly the usefulness of the &n= bsp;OAM procedures.  

 
<Nagendra> We tried differentiating the BitString before and aft= er applying the forwarding rule by referring BitString in Header-H (before = applying) and Egress BitString (after applying). I will check these section= s to see if anything is misleading.

We will include the comments in next revision.

Thanks,
Nagendra
 
--_000_D253C6F0A9D88naikumarciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Oct 26 11:32:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FCCA1B5072 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DhF1R9BvF_xa for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A9C31B5074 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-27-562e10c2ef15 Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D2.05.32596.2C01E265; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:38:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:31:59 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] comments on the BIER ping draft Thread-Index: AQHREBwsXJ7MPBK7zE68bltpEB714J5+GFlw Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:31:58 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA2E5@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAF9653@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA2E5eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpjkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZXLonUPewgF6YwbtmRoulM/YwWbyeOJXN gcljyu+NrB5LlvxkCmCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4MqY/vA6Y8GypIoZX5awNDBODu1i5OSQEDCR 2LVrMjuELSZx4d56ti5GLg4hgSOMEv8n/mSEcJYzSjx89ZwZpIpNwELi8renYLaIQJzEoYkr mboYOTiEBYwlpnToQ4RNJN69ec4EYRtJzJ8AsYBFQFWi8cgusHJeAV+JUwe8QcJCAsUSy1c0 sILYnAIGEifO7gGbzgh0z/dTa8DGMAuIS9x6Mp8J4k4BiSV7zjND2KISLx//Y4WwFSX29U9n h6jPl3jyeR8biM0rIChxcuYTlgmMIrOQjJqFpGwWkjKIuI7Egt2f2CBsbYllC18zw9hnDjxm QhZfwMi+ipGjtDi1LDfdyGATIzB2jkmw6e5g3PPS8hCjAAejEg+vwTadMCHWxLLiytxDjBIc zEoivKz2emFCvCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTEefcvuR8qJJCeWJKanZpakFoEk2Xi4JRq YOxY9UqtWTnM21pa5cJv5RXT/CX3bP/+6lzzL+lV602+/bhucv5F988CIbcbkv5H3v9cfO38 jdS80hlrtZc2/V55cMmf2/nP+uWES1qjn+c+3mvvUBUUPI+Fj2mF3ORD02IfqWRzH7dJ5Y5f LGOTHPU+JVNftnBfQcY8TUnu1EMtpmHG+//rKSmxFGckGmoxFxUnAgDZjCdZmQIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on the BIER ping draft X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:32:04 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA2E5eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3.3.6: it's worth a discussion whether it's safer and more natural to retu= rn BFR-prefix here as advertised in IGP with the BIER attributes attached. = I do think so. I think yes. BFR-Prefix will be advertised by all BFRs. We curren= tly have "Routable Address" in the responding TLV. I think we can replace i= t with BFR-Prefix. [Tony saiz:] ack 3.3.7: why is this NOT following 3.3.4 format albeit referring to it. We wi= ll have unnumbered cases as well or not ? The control plane information will help populate the egress inte= rface and the downstream neighbor to which the packet is targetted which ca= n be used to populate both Downstream Address and Downstream Interface Addr= ess. But Upstream Interface TLV only need to carry the incoming interface a= ddress. You are right that we need to add support for unnumbered in 3.3.7. We will = include the relevant Address type. Please let us know if this will help or = if it needs more clarity by including the explanation on address format in = 3.3.7. [Tony saiz:] ack 4.1: where is the router alert? Is there a v6 frame within the BIER OAM fra= me or is a IPv6 encapsulation containing BIER presumed somehow ? I am not sure which v6 frame you are referring. When the received= label stack carries Router Alert label (label=3D1), it will punt for OAM p= rocessing. [Tony saiz:] ah, ok, misunderstanding, my brain parsed router alert as IPv6= (2711) router alert and I forgot router alert label ;-) 4,4 and 4.5 must be more specific about the bitmasks used to decide and the= ones sent back in terms of processing, i.e. is the precise mask received u= sed or the mask after processing (removing incoming bits, applying rules pe= r e.g. -te- DNR bits and so on). Otherwise the bitmask interpretation may d= iffer between receiver and sender and may lower significantly the usefulnes= s of the OAM procedures. We tried differentiating the BitString before and after applying= the forwarding rule by referring BitString in Header-H (before applying) a= nd Egress BitString (after applying). I will check these sections to see if= anything is misleading. [Tony saiz:] thanks, you cannot be clear enough here from my experience wit= h such specs n Tony --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA2E5eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

3.3.6:  it’s = worth a discussion whether it’s safer and more natural to return BFR-= prefix here as advertised in IGP with the BIER attributes attached. I do th= ink so.

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra>I think yes. BFR-Prefix will be advertised by all BFRs. We current= ly have “Routable Address” in the responding TLV. I think we ca= n replace it with BFR-Prefix.

[Tony saiz:] ack=

&n= bsp;

3.3.7: why is this NOT f= ollowing 3.3.4 format albeit referring to it. We will have unnumbered cases= as well or not ?

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra> The control plane information will help populate the egress inter= face and the downstream neighbor to which the packet is targetted which can= be used to populate both Downstream Address and Downstream Interface Address. But Upstream Interface TLV only need to = carry the incoming interface address. 

&n= bsp;

You are= right that we need to add support for unnumbered in 3.3.7. We will include= the relevant Address type. Please let us know if this will help or if it n= eeds more clarity by including the explanation on address format in 3.3.7.

[Tony saiz:] ack=

&n= bsp;

4.1: where is the router= alert? Is there a v6 frame within the BIER OAM frame or is a IPv6 encapsul= ation containing BIER presumed somehow ?

&n= bsp;

<Nag= endra>I am not sure which v6 frame you are referring. When the received = label stack carries Router Alert label (label=3D1), it will punt for OAM pr= ocessing.

[Tony saiz:] ah,= ok, misunderstanding, my brain parsed router alert as IPv6 (2711) router a= lert and I forgot router alert label ;-)

&n= bsp;

4,4 and 4.5 must be more= specific about the bitmasks used to decide and the ones sent back in terms= of processing, i.e. is the precise mask received used or the mask after pr= ocessing (removing incoming bits, applying rules per e.g. –te- DNR bits and so on). Otherwise the bitmask inter= pretation may differ between receiver and sender and may lower significantl= y the usefulness of the  OAM procedures.  

 =

<Nag= endra> We tried differentiating the BitString before and after applying = the forwarding rule by referring BitString in Header-H (before applying) an= d Egress BitString (after applying). I will check these sections to see if anything is misleading.

[Tony saiz:] thanks, you cannot be clear enough here from my ex= perience with such specs

 

n  Tony

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFA2E5eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Mon Oct 26 11:43:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7867D1B50A0 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:43:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01X8gkOsmiEa for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 641EF1B509F for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbkq10 with SMTP id kq10so79534313igb.0 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:43:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=A7LI8uOzmxKLjrcYcHEMh4Zhr40oWEebtESOA64CFro=; b=sASaBm7zdhNnBUUJYC7fyCWugU6Ll5uxagYzf0RMVbp41uhIeR5QHdbq7t7CihS3jc xSanPHb5PLwvkRcW3r2t6vLsxYB8UEAId4oW3QWJA1Sx9hD+ZERRg9lJ29ZBL8kB1erb sXCh2XPu4O8RGdiv/PdIEJF2n+OcDk95Ol5CHMQIEP25xtY+FbEERBdNq/xmm1Mjnl4i lSxsX0wWxKEUzZ60A0lGTPT4L5mlKyP+FEkpla+Xwxw1JsTcbjtyf/LehedAitLgoXnV l5waF+wu1N9OsNAeJ6Lw1bvWhManEdxEAINLFfILN0qq7fos/wielh1/s0BBzCqk2EnC 3lCQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.61.166 with SMTP id q6mr1545950igr.93.1445885007841; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:43:27 -0700 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdca2f8474fe30523065649 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-mirsky-bier-oam-requirements-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:43:29 -0000 --047d7bdca2f8474fe30523065649 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 No real comments but as chair-hat-on I have to point out that having 9 authors on the draft will pretty surely cause a push-back when it goes last-call, editor-review. It maybe worthwhile to prune to an editor and 3-4 authors & the rest contributing ... -- tony --047d7bdca2f8474fe30523065649 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No real comments but as chair-hat-on I have to point out t= hat having 9 authors on the draft will pretty surely cause a push-back when= it goes last-call, editor-review. It maybe worthwhile to prune to an edito= r and 3-4 authors & the rest contributing ...=C2=A0

= -- tony=C2=A0
--047d7bdca2f8474fe30523065649-- From nobody Tue Oct 27 19:04:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5CA1B3FB9 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:04:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EYb8oKl-T0l3 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8B01B3FB4 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 2B4DF7315BEDD; 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Wed, 28 Oct 2015 02:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p8FKw2thKlZ6 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 02:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 239E31B3706 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 02:16:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=967; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446023768; x=1447233368; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=O1cjwzF+nDdJ48ilV4M48eIpiXQq7AzxPHXsF/3880c=; b=lscHvORQY/5DhD8ITv45dRvBXdPIzpjoL94J3V9SkWe5cMrjh7knK50T yE1yze713IBcrVU9RleeFa8Nocx8sTLXRPzqMmukHpuZEhILpuO3mQ3oZ KkzhYzLwpV2E9AkamnqAASGfRzS5Bp1MXSX7i2Qemj0Do4LoSRzjhq6rH c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AbBAA6kTBW/xbLJq1ehApvqgwBAQEBAQEFAYENk2MBDYFaIYV6AoFxFAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ2AQEDATo9AgULC0ZXNIgNCA3FKQEBAQEBAQQBAQEBAQEBAQEBFQSGMIJXgm6EXTMHF4MDgRQBBI0biSKFHIgIgVmWaYNwHwEBQoJEgUE9NAGFfAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,209,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="612440327" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Oct 2015 09:16:06 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-88113.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-88113.cisco.com [10.60.202.94]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9S9G5g6004397 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:16:06 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 10:16:05 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <68C676AF-8D80-4093-A211-218D3D55E02A@cisco.com> <5FA669BC-FA91-4545-AE4C-669B1DC4C8CE@cisco.com> To: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:16:10 -0000 Hi Linda, > Thanks for your patient explanation :)=20 > In fact, I totally agree that BIER-MPLS using MPLS label to lookup = BIFT table is a perfect solution.=20 No problem :-). > Here, about BIER-Lite, it is just another choice for some operators = who would like to run native IP network. Maybe it is not exactly correct = to call this solution BIER-Lite, but the purpose of this solution, as = you know, just for non-MPLS network. It is not MUST required to carry = BSL information together with MPLS label information. In non-MPLS = network, it seems acceptable to carry BSL information together with BIER = info sub-TLV instead. So I propose to carry BSL information in BIER info = sub-TLV. If this solution is worthy discussing, maybe we can change the = name BIER-Lite to another more accurate one :)=20 Its probably good to checkout below draft first. https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-rtgwg-dt-encap-00.txt Thx, Ice. From nobody Wed Oct 28 07:33:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C741B5334 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:33:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5FWhtrIiX47V for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF5211B5332 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkcl124 with SMTP id l124so597658qkc.3 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:33:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=+g4i5vYTSvQHyKFwzJmK7Xtgdph/r2YE1LwgHtKxK1A=; b=NWAFY2z9u3sXHr7t03sQF/Z17O6ukeoYgJ8vLDBMU38CSVrECgC/1EfYUHJv0TQHCK I1Y8bbdBTKHn0vbP7maohlA8TAlE+toS/nUIa/XJ4BJIHJ3OUYCkXmdKa5kONwoKV5dG I+x/R+YGUBgdkefjoG1e1GXvS27rTo8vsazYWrqHNUOv142BVMVJHLu5Y0ltfU6muHzw +yE1ihR5CGziTA+11jMbsD9ANt/ycUwOoUavc40o9E+CHtFN+22UwUsGDtWaVRDemYOp L+AzqALqTx37YnzwQ8uOWk5kI/Qijn+4D+ZfLFcq3hDFAAj86W5fdiGQYZXmgCH2evKQ dWEA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.75.205 with SMTP id y196mr4191084qka.58.1446042834055; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.55.105.68 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:33:53 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114db9147437dc05232b159a Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Yokohama Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 14:33:56 -0000 --001a114db9147437dc05232b159a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The agenda is published, and posted below the fold. Please review and let me know of corrections or missing items. We do have some open time and there's been list activity on drafts that are not on the agenda. Let me know soon please. Also, all those on the agenda, please send me your slides ASAP. Thanks, Greg ---- IETF 94, Yokohama, Japan BIER WG Agenda Fri, November 6, 2015, 09:00 - 11:00 Room 413 Welcome, Notewell, Agenda bash Chairs 5 min draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-01 TonyP 5 min draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00 Ice Wijnands 10 min draft-mirsky-bier-path-mtu-discovery-00 Greg Mirsky 10 min draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01 Ran Chen 15 min draft-chen-pce-bier-00 Ran Chen draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00 Linda Wang 15 min draft-want-bier-lite-ospf-extensions-00 Linda Wang --001a114db9147437dc05232b159a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The agenda is published, and posted below the fold. Please= review and let me know of corrections or missing items. We do have some op= en time and there's been list activity on drafts that are not on the ag= enda. Let me know soon please.

Also, all those on the ag= enda, please send me your slides ASAP.

Thanks,
Greg

----

IET= F 94, Yokohama, Japan
BIER WG Agenda
Fri, November 6, 2= 015, 09:00 - 11:00
Room 413

Welcome, Not= ewell, Agenda bash Chai= rs 5 min
<= div>draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-01 TonyP = 5 min
draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00 Ice Wijnands 10 min
draft-mirsky-bie= r-path-mtu-discovery-00 = Greg Mirsky 10 mi= n
draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01 Ran Chen 15 min
draft-chen-pce-bier-00 Ran Chen
draft-eckert-= bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min
draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min
draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00 Linda Wang 15 min
draft-want= -bier-lite-ospf-extensions-00 <= /span>Linda Wang

--001a114db9147437dc05232b159a-- From nobody Wed Oct 28 13:26:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B551ACEBA for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:26:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RUqLdvEXLl3L for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E2061ACEBE for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacfv9 with SMTP id fv9so17273648pac.3 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:26:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nexenta_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BlQRppy7Dh6Myeh9RZLhGKNiWN2QTl21XmB+o1URfPs=; b=d/QIMqRG+k2Mi95LoI7JUHlDI5jmXSuxKUTLvTHfKp4gTwu8FA7dkKHMChDhSq8d0q K4dkzFgB8JN+IdVyV6V3lrsruKACgDHO4AmFMR9teeEEXwf+lGX+YSYX+IxeB+jW1KVb wlogZOljR6Bi8a3jpKhNdinc2mJdEhrdPD0oVZSmqQJThX41ftpfSYDbqtSB1FgnaviY o01VBanmWOH6ctqnV775Ohz1IQsAUA64eTh3BFwIXg+gdkg8fFIkSqz5UeUibE5J/xE7 2D2VdMtLSXcSIZiQjifxEEsPUbSWEcBhEc2Zxe5bPsx7wiLpdWo0DP4Q7o2ErjGRQsB2 TiuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BlQRppy7Dh6Myeh9RZLhGKNiWN2QTl21XmB+o1URfPs=; b=G1cLaEOfEyyOClBAQhec4WPQjgi7K/KKdNNLzyVsLDT94hvpWsk4st1QmWg9u6zP2u SQjEigj2OQSJr7wDmOq8OA38NrVKo0Eq0c1ZTgr8vM5dxvcZTkBojHNkcUNa46O79swn UAiVUCuZGwy3YdWOCcMf4Ia6FqEJ/AH97wZqWID3V6F+c41aK9KznD+VyDzRYiRewfiI DymFPZN3ZSucoN/kFV8Xif2T0vOxUm13S//P2kOrvCvDwL6B9wASR84uMrNK+7xN7tEW eDc33COh37KFEcJxFVxTCGB95yhIV2P1KUAGJSb5ELWWgoWhj6b5EYtOhF8ENGiwU9/Y AduA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnAht0QImTClSqQvE6nP3SJU5CxmE83a/b6CJoptoWJ5XacuLRMEkCoznjMRlW9K/955t1b X-Received: by 10.68.131.36 with SMTP id oj4mr36085128pbb.141.1446063973579; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id yp9sm47153272pab.1.2015.10.28.13.26.12 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Caitlin Bestler To: "bier@ietf.org" Message-ID: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:26:11 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:26:16 -0000 There is a broad use-case for BIER that has not been properly highlighted: explicit application use of bitmaps to push multicast messages. Applications specify the subset of a cluster (BIER sub-domain) that is to receive a message on a per packet basis. Sender-determine, or pushed, targeting is natural for many cluster applications, especially storage clusters. Requiring the sender to tell the receivers that they need to join a specific group adds latency to any transaction. When the determination is truly listener based, or the delivery lasts long enough, this overhead is insignificant. But for transactional messages, such as transferring chunks within a storage cluster, the extra latency is a killer. No real changes are required to support this model. At most a few MAY clauses would be added. Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than a BFER. The application would map a destination IP address to a bit position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). But such an implementation would already be allowed by simply considering the IP stack on each end station to be its own BFER. It would also be desirable to use Layer 2 multicasting for the final delivery hop. The current pseudo-code implies unicast delivery. Allowing mutlicast L2 delivery only requires adding one clause to the forwarding pseudo-code. We must allow treating an existing L2 multicast address as though it were an anonymous virtual BFER that delivered to a known set of endpoints. An implementation could create a virtual BFER under the current wording, but I believe it would have to allocate a bit position for each virtual group, and then explicitly advertise it. Just allowing the actual BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery is more direct. There is no need for BFERs to inform BFIRs that multicast delivery will be used. It makes no difference to the other BFRs. You can even make a case that this is already allowed under the "no harm no foul" rule. From nobody Wed Oct 28 21:44:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB03D1B6502 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:44:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v7CspIJD8GzO for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11AF91B6501 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbdj2 with SMTP id dj2so22693016igb.1 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:44:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=pfB3vmIb/UraF0c75McNSSQh9fG1sFf8x82/o7/MSgk=; b=I8rVBCH183S4QgKSLBC/oKM/S/Bnpywza5vwVKDiCZeKc29WgT2913C4AGnJitXC83 UzrTA0u2DzQ99HbcBsJnSJ1yhHcsNTmKhYhtVqYGRCZPcUPxHQHUjY9dJAMO7JseChTt fQe5Hpw1S15YJzrCzvxp6X+Pqibl/wQwL0zeceNDYPN/Jtlkxgw5bMdWjuHZJKVRxwZx 3LWvEJL2BFdmSwah/6t1A07J+wneVtfyTaIS8/lfRwTrczmrfTdZJu+ku27bJGXBug2p ufih4WxVPsM+VYhbTwh167nwZjIu32q9uSmiEa4LYio2L4x30t/OW7OOU/4rxrjJ/bWV 3cUQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.50.202 with SMTP id e10mr7196717igo.25.1446093868382; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:44:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> References: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:44:28 -0700 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: Caitlin Bestler Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd75850564172052336f702 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 04:44:31 -0000 --047d7bd75850564172052336f702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Caitlin Bestler < caitlin.bestler@nexenta.com> wrote: > There is a broad use-case for BIER that has not been properly highlighted: > explicit application use of bitmaps > to push multicast messages. > > Applications specify the subset of a cluster (BIER sub-domain) that is to > receive a message on a per packet basis. > Sender-determine, or pushed, targeting is natural for many cluster > applications, especially storage clusters. > Requiring the sender to tell the receivers that they need to join a > specific group adds latency to any transaction. > When the determination is truly listener based, or the delivery lasts long > enough, this overhead is insignificant. > But for transactional messages, such as transferring chunks within a > storage cluster, the extra latency is a killer. > > No real changes are required to support this model. At most a few MAY > clauses would be added. > > Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than a BFER. The > application would map a destination > IP address to a bit position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). But such an > implementation would already be allowed > by simply considering the IP stack on each end station to be its own BFER. > You pretty much describe how BIER works ;-) > > It would also be desirable to use Layer 2 multicasting for the final > delivery hop. The current pseudo-code implies > unicast delivery. Allowing mutlicast L2 delivery only requires adding one > clause to the forwarding pseudo-code. > We must allow treating an existing L2 multicast address as though it were > an anonymous virtual BFER that delivered > to a known set of endpoints. An implementation could create a virtual BFER > under the current wording, but I believe > it would have to allocate a bit position for each virtual group, and then > explicitly advertise it. Just allowing the actual > BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery is more direct. There is no need > for BFERs to inform BFIRs that multicast delivery > will be used. It makes no difference to the other BFRs. You can even make > a case that this is already allowed under the > "no harm no foul" rule. > > yes, I agree, such "virtual BFERs" would be possible but are more of an overlay thing I would say. BIER layer just delivers the bit to where the bit is announced ;-) No claims are made that one bit must represent precisely one end-receiver. In fact for inter-area BIER I think we'll have a bit representing a set of receivers in possibly a different BIER domain (I have all that only on paper napkins ;-) As well, one could even imagine BIER overlay being driven completely by multicast MAC snooping I think (albeit delivery per IP multicast group would be not optimal) . BIER architecture is currently "wide" enough to accomodate all that IMO so I don't see any changes necessary albeit such a "use case" description would be interesting given a specific application (storage in your case I guess). -- tony --047d7bd75850564172052336f702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Caitlin Bestler <= caitlin.be= stler@nexenta.com> wrote:
T= here is a broad use-case for BIER that has not been properly highlighted: e= xplicit application use of bitmaps
to push multicast messages.

Applications specify the subset of a cluster (BIER sub-domain) that is to r= eceive a message on a per packet basis.
Sender-determine, or pushed, targeting is natural for many cluster applicat= ions, especially storage clusters.
Requiring the sender to tell the receivers that they need to join a specifi= c group adds latency to any transaction.
When the determination is truly listener based, or the delivery lasts long = enough, this overhead is insignificant.
But for transactional messages, such as transferring chunks within a storag= e cluster, the extra latency is a killer.

No real changes are required to support this model. At most a few MAY claus= es would be added.

Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than a BFER. The a= pplication would map a destination
IP address to a bit position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). But such an im= plementation would already be allowed
by simply considering the IP stack on each end station to be its own BFER.<= br>

You pretty much describe how BIER works= ;-)=C2=A0
=C2=A0

It would also be desirable to use Layer 2 multicasting for the final delive= ry hop. The current pseudo-code implies
unicast delivery. Allowing mutlicast L2 delivery only requires adding one c= lause to the forwarding pseudo-code.
We must allow treating an existing L2 multicast address as though it were a= n anonymous virtual BFER that delivered
to a known set of endpoints. An implementation could create a virtual BFER = under the current wording, but I believe
it would have to allocate a bit position for each virtual group, and then e= xplicitly advertise it. Just allowing the actual
BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery is more direct. There is no need for= BFERs to inform BFIRs that multicast delivery
will be used. It makes no difference to the other BFRs. You can even make a= case that this is already allowed under the
"no harm no foul" rule.


yes, I agree, such "virtual BFERs= " would be possible but are more of an overlay thing I would say. BIER= layer just=C2=A0
delivers the bit to where the bit is announced = ;-) No claims are made that one bit must represent precisely one end-receiv= er.=C2=A0
In fact for inter-area BIER I think we'll have a bi= t representing a set of receivers in possibly a different BIER domain=C2=A0=
(I have all that only on paper napkins ;-)

<= div>As well, one could even imagine BIER overlay being driven completely by= multicast MAC snooping I think (albeit delivery per IP multicast group wou= ld be not optimal) .

BIER architecture is currentl= y "wide" enough to accomodate all that IMO so I don't see any= changes necessary albeit such a=C2=A0
"use case" descr= iption would be interesting given a specific application (storage in your c= ase I guess).=C2=A0

-- tony =C2=A0
--047d7bd75850564172052336f702-- From nobody Thu Oct 29 10:16:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764C91B2FB2 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:16:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98H3VX4OaMEK for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1on0791.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::791]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A35501B2FB0 for ; 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SN1PR0501MB2015; 5:a9vuqgdP/BfSeFqa2ZnEgXo+tGG4nImP3AalRhQbJ6sh7d2yjOk23CgXM73hqeb/ZGZUhEaCoDnNLwcMYJ1BP7USFZ/clb8wLOSfZWzzvpI+9PShHdFjJ6AtXv8aPelP3/TAEGnUcQYBpgZSoNlupw==; 24:qsbGpH7N6YUVks5xMeHj0/N6VMw9CPzRJguByPupqzssjsqFN7jqC5ywXJQ0JPecq4RLVLd1GsC/GYyg6AYuyLRPkZtt27QLnlYjhxUQM1Y=; 20:BHtRLPuvAoVdzzr7bFc2qL4yxtS3U1B9X2ItoZCAHxemzQBE8IM+DSG2Q0DLa4U7zpmEddtYd9fE0QRxLmywmA== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2015 17:15:50.9831 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN1PR0501MB2015 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:16:15 -0000 [Caitlin] Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than a BFER. The application would map a destination IP address to a bit position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). This is really just a control plane issue. [Caitlin] allowing the actual BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery is more direct. There is no need for BFERs to inform BFIRs that multicast delivery will be used. It makes no difference to the other BFRs. You can even make a case that this is already allowed under the "no harm no foul" rule. This seems a bit more problematic to me, as the LAN might attach to multiple transit BFRs. Consider a topology like: |----BFR-B---Endpoint-1 BFR-A---| | |----Endpoint-2 That is, BFR-A, BFR-B, and Endpoint-2 are on the LAN, while Endpoint-1 is downstream of BFR-B. BFR-B also has another interface that attaches to Endpoint-2. All links are equal cost to the IGP. Suppose BFR-A receives a packet whose BitString says that the BFERs are Endpoint-1 and Endpoint-2. With existing procedures, BFR-A sends BFR-B the packet with only Endpoint-1's bit set, and BFR-A sends Endpoint-2 the packet with only Endpoint-2's bit set. If BFR-A uses layer 2 multicast to send a single packet to both BFR-B and Endpoint-2, Endpoint-2's bit will still be set in the packet received by BFR-B. So BFR-B will forward the packet to Endpoint-2, and Endpoint-2 will now receive two copies of the packet. Another problematic scenario: |----BFR-B---Endpoint-1 BFR-A---| | |----Endpoint-2 BFR-C---| |----Endpoint-3 Here BFR-C and Endpoint-3 are also on the LAN. Suppose BFR-A receives a packet (from one of its other interfaces) whose BitString identifies Endpoint-1 and Endpoint-2, while BFR-C receives the same packet (from one of its other interfaces), but with a BitString identifying only Endpoint-3. When BFR-A and BFR-C multicast the packet to the LAN, we need to make sure that BFR-A and BFR-C don't receive the packet from each other, and that BFR-B doesn't receive the packet from BFR-C. If, for example, BFR-C gets the packet from BFR-A, it will conclude from the BitString that the packet still needs to be sent to Endpoint-1 and Endpoint-2. It would be an interesting exercise to see if one could state a set of enforceable applicability restrictions that eliminate these problems. The various proposals for MLD/IGMP/PIM overlays address problems like this, but the solutions are not at the BIER layer, so I don't think they apply directly to the case of end-to-end BIER. From nobody Thu Oct 29 10:52:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E80E1B2F8D for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KEYMtKYNXrbo for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 10:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0730.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B9B11A92E0 for ; 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BY2PR0501MB2008; 5:GM1CpHU0FMaaga6PwYoa9ZouIYGWDNwIOaH4W3FEkCDR0+SXnmNQJsyVh/yAk4gu/wSr8blQDNN++OWupqyXi+0tpbxZ7yK5llSfbtU7oQE1J1MvSYLeEE3P88tRwzyCKN1xnknkjSIMaGZGat5/EA==; 24:w0ns24ZZqSOLqdg3Ia2nDBK8hFMjd/LuVJvwcG3WIXMpR4IrEQvJaEH4B5Hq6F/7rupGx+hmNU0J+48/oEb5lPNNETN1raPEHf1udTHN0rI=; 20:uIFLfRwWlKyGPatdL2YV8H4m/cDLoS9sL+TOGamAn6OnRkeXth0EZl6D4zCSjmugbeSyStMCUoNW7YJLVAVDQw== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2015 17:52:12.9376 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR0501MB2008 Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" , Neale Ranns Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:52:40 -0000 On 10/16/2015 3:41 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > We could easily avoid the single "shared leaf bit" by having a forwarding > plane feature "you're a leaf BFER, every BIER-TE packet you receive > needs to be punted". But thats a new forwarding plane feature, the > "shared leaf bit" is just a bit allocation trick, so it keeps the forwarding > plane simpler/cleaner. I don't really follow this. Presumably, if a BFR is a leaf BFER in a particular sub-domain, it must know that it is a leaf BFER in that sub-domain. Otherwise it wouldn't punt the packet when it sees the "shared leaf bit". If the BFR knows that it is a leaf BFER in a particular sub-domain, then when it gets a packet whose top label is the MPLS label it has assigned to that sub-domain, it can just punt the packet. Recognizing that a particular MPLS label means "this packet is for me" doesn't seem like a new forwarding plane feature. On the issue of adding new BFERs, suppose you have an existing flow, one of whose BFERs is BFR-1. Now you need to add another BFER to that flow, say BFR-2. Unfortunately, BFR-2 can only be reached using BFR-1 as a transit BFR. So to add BFR-2 as a leaf, you have to turn BFR-1 into a non-leaf, which means assigning it a BFR-id, assigning a bit position to the link connecting BFR-1 and BFR-2, and modifying the flow's BitString appropriately. I know that the magic central controller is going to figure all this out ;-), but can it disseminate the new bit position assignments without disrupting the flow that is already in progress? After all, you don't want to see a glitch in the TV show you're watching every someone else decides to tune in ;-) One more issue. The discussion of SI in the -02 revision of the draft still doesn't seem right to me. In BIER-TE, the BitString in a packet has to represent the tree over which the packet will flow. The only way I can think of using SI is to divide the tree into n sub=trees, where the links and BFERs for each sub-tree all have BFR-ids that fall into the same set. Then the BFIR could make n copies of the packet, unicast each one to the root of the corresponding sub-tree, and allow BIER-TE to proceed from there. Is that what you are actually thinking? From nobody Thu Oct 29 12:56:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A9C1A9071 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Et5nu5ykf0s for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCB141A9072 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacfv9 with SMTP id fv9so51726416pac.3 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:56:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nexenta_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9zcg/Dh1RtoR9Ehg2q//FELyqbH57TTEeK3pymyGSYc=; b=S0lM9W3sEewPHUUFdYWtM0OBBXzT7CkzHoMEFDWo08R5qt+Zpwkyvsb9/D3r1lBBq6 qPHPE8bSlDdKczZ3zUq28DdxobJ05aA0r+D13UlMkas5LniuX4unCjS5KpJOCpq6SW4E FvKJS+fvao5I94qjH/hVRau2JBIWDSPZSoujNq4jQi8qVHvXZbVxZspqNUjlAXCBRkV2 WYOg43UEvyKxYxLZU1MBAJg7PbOZIzKbgjrYNENE0iq0QY2+WRIIl628NEaA+jW3NKFm yyIRDKqOKbTwqarAuHkGBHL9gq3bOJQohGFj72pJJmwB5UFEFdkdNHUhdBB+pUAKRe0h 5Vpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9zcg/Dh1RtoR9Ehg2q//FELyqbH57TTEeK3pymyGSYc=; b=Jxfk6y1elvPx7yqTq4HNyLsj4tbfjQvjjFYGopOGDGwumuSikxGPbqklYo6ynlN5Oj VPSA0JDIlfReHUAl0wl+G4/2VBDXUdIdlnRErnZltRauHymmCB4SvH8H3jtg5KcrbEN8 jONHh7dC2N3XYyPOQV2O+OoVEhFa0JBCqDiQg8sVRwHzS+BFXPwmuMBnuSxA30aVscVn gL1YLc9VmXHLRj4qtDSI0AdgQWuMeuTag98NZyBAUcVy2Qpk3V1Hjur+I7GYeP0ny7Dn wI/pKP/DZ99iFCQEC2c+vABV+T61c9OYlvteREKDoLYrvjUwmgpelcPEBMfbV4F4+IjV 5ckQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm+TxrY7o5cWYMPnu3ftQflQ03FiUUZYncbj0hTXESYanTfIQIa6LhhI5AU6bFDedXd8TKu X-Received: by 10.68.88.2 with SMTP id bc2mr3795794pbb.117.1446148597444; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id cn4sm3786342pbc.94.2015.10.29.12.56.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:56:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric C Rosen , Tony Przygienda References: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> <5632543F.5090204@juniper.net> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <563279F5.4030306@nexenta.com> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:56:37 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5632543F.5090204@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:56:39 -0000 On 10/29/15 10:15 AM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > [Caitlin] Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than > a BFER. The application would map a destination IP address to a bit > position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). > > This is really just a control plane issue. > > [Caitlin] allowing the actual BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery > is more direct. There is no need for BFERs to inform BFIRs that > multicast delivery will be used. It makes no difference to the other > BFRs. You can even make a case that this is already allowed under the > "no harm no foul" rule. > > This seems a bit more problematic to me, as the LAN might attach to > multiple transit BFRs. Consider a topology like: > > |----BFR-B---Endpoint-1 > BFR-A---| | > |----Endpoint-2 > > That is, BFR-A, BFR-B, and Endpoint-2 are on the LAN, while Endpoint-1 > is downstream of BFR-B. BFR-B also has another interface that > attaches to Endpoint-2. All links are equal cost to the IGP. > > Suppose BFR-A receives a packet whose BitString says that the BFERs > are Endpoint-1 and Endpoint-2. > > With existing procedures, BFR-A sends BFR-B the packet with only > Endpoint-1's bit set, and BFR-A sends Endpoint-2 the packet with only > Endpoint-2's bit set. > > If BFR-A uses layer 2 multicast to send a single packet to both BFR-B > and Endpoint-2, Endpoint-2's bit will still be set in the packet > received by BFR-B. So BFR-B will forward the packet to Endpoint-2, > and Endpoint-2 will now receive two copies of the packet. > > Another problematic scenario: > > > |----BFR-B---Endpoint-1 > BFR-A---| | > |----Endpoint-2 > BFR-C---| > |----Endpoint-3 > > Here BFR-C and Endpoint-3 are also on the LAN. Suppose BFR-A receives > a packet (from one of its other interfaces) whose BitString identifies > Endpoint-1 and Endpoint-2, while BFR-C receives the same packet (from > one of its other interfaces), but with a BitString identifying only > Endpoint-3. When BFR-A and BFR-C multicast the packet to the LAN, we > need to make sure that BFR-A and BFR-C don't receive the packet from > each other, and that BFR-B doesn't receive the packet from BFR-C. If, > for example, BFR-C gets the packet from BFR-A, it will conclude from > the BitString that the packet still needs to be sent to Endpoint-1 and > Endpoint-2. > > It would be an interesting exercise to see if one could state a set of > enforceable applicability restrictions that eliminate these problems. > > The various proposals for MLD/IGMP/PIM overlays address problems like > this, but the solutions are not at the BIER layer, so I don't think > they apply directly to the case of end-to-end BIER. > I'm not certain what the correct phrasing is in routing terminology, but going down one layer doing an L2 local-only delivery is remarkably easy. Each L2 subnet knows its boundaries, and there is never an ambiguity about whether a given link is being used to *forward* and Ethernet frame as opposed to *routing* an IP datagram. If a BFER does not know how to do a local only L2 multicast then it should probably refrain from using that solution. The fact that a spontaneously appearing MRouter appearing without notice would create problems in a WAN environment is not a reason to avoid using this optimizaton in a datacenter where all forwarders and routers are known and the only question to be determined dynamically is which of them are up. From nobody Fri Oct 30 14:45:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85BEA1ACD0B; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:45:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DC_GIF_UNO_LARGO=2.176, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r-_tIaDLGOWk; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No 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d="gif'147?scan'147,208,217,147";a="203445945" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Oct 2015 21:44:54 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (xch-rcd-018.cisco.com [173.37.102.28]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9ULisFi001377 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:44:54 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:44:27 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:44:27 -0500 From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: "chen.ran@zte.com.cn" Thread-Topic: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHRDKjw1je0nl8A+0eelJnF/h/zw553niKAgAFXIICAC6nMAA== Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:44:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151019022713.12650.22136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.2.150604 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.248.117] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_D25941B9100699rrahmanciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" , "bier@ietf.org" , BIER , "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" , "Mahesh Sivakumar \(masivaku\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:45:00 -0000 --_004_D25941B9100699rrahmanciscocom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Hi,

Took a look and here are some quick comments:
  • bitstringlengthenum is defined in a couple of places, instead you shoul= d have a typedef and use that typedef for all your bitstringlength leaf nod= es. There are also some bitstringlength leaf nodes which are of type uint16= , I believe this is incorrect.
  • Leaf SI, in description spell out th= e full name =A1=B0Set identifier=A1=B1.
  • Might be good to have a typ= e for BIER base types such as SI, sub-domain ID etc. YANG experts can advis= e you on this.
  • For AF, my understanding is that recommendation is t= o have a list indexed by AF, so you could combine list ipv4 and list ipv6 i= nto 1 list . Please take a look at draft-raza-mpls-ldp-mldp-yang-02 fo= r an example.
  • For label instead of uint32 you should eventually use= mpls-label from ietf-mpls.yang
  • For bfr-nbr you don=A1=AFt need to = have your own union of  ipv4-address and ipv6-address, use existing ip= -address typedef from RFC6021
  • The BIRT portion needs to be describe= d in section 5, e.g. why that key was chosen etc etc. Not a BIER expert but= I am not sure the routing table as modelled is complete/correct.

Regards,
Reshad.

From: "chen.ran@zte.com.cn" <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 at 2= :38 AM
To: Reshad <rrahman@cisco.com>
Cc: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@i= etf.org>, BIER <bier-bou= nces@ietf.org>, "hu.fa= ngwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>= , "Mahesh Sivakumar (masivaku)" <masivaku@cisco.com>, "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Not= ification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt

Hi Reshad,
Thank you your comments.
please see inline.Thanks.

Regards,
Ran





=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =         &qu= ot;Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <r= rahman@cisco.com>
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: =         &qu= ot;chen.ran@zte.com.cn" <= ;chen.ran@zte.com.cn>, "= bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>,
=B3=AD=CB=CD:  =      "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <= zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, &= quot;hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn&quo= t; <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>= , "Mahesh Sivakumar \(masivaku\)" <masivaku@cisco.com>
=C8=D5=C6=DA:  =       2015/10/2= 2 22:10
=D6=F7=CC=E2:  =      Re: [Bier]= New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =        &quo= t;BIER" <bier-bounces@ietf= .org>



Hi,

Repeating the same comments as for 00, th= e 2 following comments still apply for sure
  • Please follow RFC6087 guidelines e.g.= use of <CODE BEGINS>, <CODE ENDS> etc      
  • <Ran>= ;: OK. we will add it in next version. Thanks  
  • Finally, please use the validator @ http://www.yangvalidator.com/         
  • <Ran>:  Sure, we have used this validator, an= d have passed.Please see below:
Regards,
Reshad.

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "chen.ran@zte.com.cn" <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 4:59 AM
To: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri">>
Cc: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn= " <= zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>= , "Mahesh Sivakumar (masivaku)" <masivaku= @cisco.com>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>
Subject: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-0= 1.txt

Hi all=A3=AC
We have updated draft-chh-bier-bier-yang to 01 version.
The link is=A3=BA  https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chh-bier-bier-ya= ng-01.txt
Any comments and suggestion are welcome. Thanks.
Regards,
Ran


internet-drafts@ietf.org =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/19 10:27:13:

> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  internet-drafts@= ietf.org
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB:  "Xianxian Dai" <dai.xianxian@zte.com.cn>,
> "dai.xianxian@zte.com.cn" <da= i.xianxian@zte.com.cn>, "Zheng Zhang"
> <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, "fangwei hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>,
> "Fangwei Hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com= .cn>, "Ran Chen&qu= ot;
> <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>, "Mahesh Sivakumar" <masivaku@cisco.com>,
> "Zheng Zhang" <zhang.zheng@zte.= com.cn>, "Mahesh S= ivakumar"
> <masivaku@cisco.com>, "Ran Chen" <= chen.ran@zte.com.cn>= ,
> =C8=D5=C6=DA:  2015/10/19 10:27
> =D6=F7=CC=E2: New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01= .txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Ran Chen and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:      draft-chh-bier-bier-yang
> Revision:   01
> Title:      YANG Data Model for BIER Protocol
> Document date:   2015-10-16
> Group:      Individual Submission
> Pages:      17
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chh-bie= r-
> bier-yang-01.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chh-bier-bier-y= ang/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ch= h-bier-bier-yang-01
>
> Abstract:
>    This document defines a YANG data model for BIER configur= ation and
>    operation.
>
>                     =                      = ;                     &nb= sp;              
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> The IETF Secretariat
>
-----=C0=B4=D7=D4 <hu.fangwei@z= te.com.cn> =B5=C4=CF=FB=CF=A2=A3=AC=D4=DA Thu, 23 Jul 2015 20:46:17 = +0800 -----
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB:
"Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
=B3=AD=CB=CD:
 "draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org" <draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@t= ools.ietf.org>, "bier@ietf.org= " <bier@ietf.org>, BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2:
 Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-00

Hi, Rahman,

Thanks for your comments, we will correct it based on your suggestion.

Regards
Fangwei.
"Reshad Rahm= an (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.c= om>
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  "BIER" <bier-bounces@ietf.org>

2015-07-23 19:43
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB
 "draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools= .ietf.org" <draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org>,
=B3=AD=CB=CD
 "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf= .org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2
 [Bier] Comments on draft-chh-bier-= bier-yang-00







Hi authors,
  • I tried to pyang the model in the dra= ft and ran into quite a few errors. I stopped after the 4 below (these are = basic YANG errors, wasn=A1=AFt even using strict/ietf option)
  • Once you fix these errors please compile with =A1=AAietf option (srict= er rules regarding ordering of statements, requiring description etc etc)
  • Please follow RFC6087 guidelines e.g. use of <CODE BEGI= NS>, <CODE ENDS> etc
  • Finally, please use the val= idator @ http://www.yangvalidator.com/=

Regards,
Reshad.

ERRORS

No =A1=B0=A1=B1 for the contact=
ietf-bier.yang:34: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword &qu= ot;contact", looking at L<= br>
Extra =A1=B0 in "reference "draft-chen-bier-bier-yang-00=A1=B1;
59: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "reference&qu= ot;, looking at d

Missing ; in key "sub-domain-id"
125: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "key", = looking at l

Missing ; in type if:interface-ref
154: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "type",= looking at }


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[=B8=BD=BC=FE "ATT00002.txt" =B1=BB =B3=C2=C8=BB080434/user/zte_l= td =C9=BE=B3=FD]_______________________________= ________________
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(PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 842201A88DC for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-e7-56343d8ca5c7 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id A9.BC.26730.C8D34365; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:03:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 07:49:26 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comments on draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-03 Thread-Index: AdETZjSwwyOw6IJnSfmWkyD7xFNaLg== Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:49:25 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE883@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE883eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuG6PrUmYwYxtZhZLZ+xhcmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXRsPc5SwFE3UqTv9bw9TAeFKti5GTQ0LAROJHywVGCFtM4sK9 9WxdjFwcQgJHGCWm7vrLDOEsZ5To2f+NFaSKTcBC4vK3p8wgtoiAssT5Q43sILawgLHE7Y7v jBBxC4mlj9+wQ9h6EnN+L2YBsVkEVCWav80Eq+EV8JV4vf8YmM0ItPn7qTVMIDazgLjErSfz mSAuEpBYsuc8M4QtKvHy8T9WCFtJYs7ra0BxDqD6fIk/h/UhRgpKnJz5hGUCo9AsJJNmIVTN QlIFUaIjsWD3JzYIW1ti2cLXzDD2mQOPmZDFFzCyr2LkKC1OLctNNzLcxAgM+2MSbI47GBd8 sjzEKMDBqMTDu8HXOEyINbGsuDL3EKMEB7OSCG/nBJMwId6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4zSHCxK 4rzzZtwPFRJITyxJzU5NLUgtgskycXBKNTAWPrTctryYYdWlJg1xe+8a4dptk4xX/mc/csjp fOfpHdYLZqUserMzfRfDlVO7Ym0KOyJ3c57b8i3/Qfz6U7ln7D8bdDZHZ72KlFDIm3zYvyLu W9hKp6D2NacXdO6xnXrm0JKGH1dOL7YTCvv5KWnHbfupU75c8zayDgpOji66fKb3LUt+k6K2 EktxRqKhFnNRcSIAgZsLjHcCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:49:29 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE883eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re-read and rethought. The key lookup will be pretty wide but if one can af= ford the TCAMs and would want to build something like this I guess it's fea= sible. Architecturally the information carried in this encapsulation is more than = necessary (which is NOT good). The architecture clearly indicates that a su= b-domain MUST match onto one MT-ID and with that carrying both is superfluo= us, carrying subdomain is good enough. This also resolves the issue of e.g.= driving this encapsulation with idr-extensions which doesn't even carry a = multi-topology concept. As well, why does the encaps carry BFR-id ? is that source/destination/orig= inator ? None of those seem necessary to me ? I think the suggestion towards the authors has been already extended to rea= d the excellent dataplane design draft put out by the according design te= am recently. I support that. Occam's razor in data plane goes a long way ;-= ) thanks --- tony "Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yo= urself to it." --- Buddha --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE883eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Re-read and rethought. The key lookup will be pretty= wide but if one can afford the TCAMs and would want to build something lik= e this I guess it’s feasible.

 

Architecturally the information carried in this enca= psulation is more than necessary (which is NOT good). The architecture clea= rly indicates that a sub-domain MUST match onto one MT-ID and with that car= rying both is superfluous, carrying subdomain is good enough. This also resolves the issue of e.g. driving thi= s encapsulation with idr-extensions which doesn’t even carry a multi-= topology concept.

 

As well, why does the encaps carry BFR-id ? is that = source/destination/originator ? None of those seem necessary to me ?

 

I think the suggestion towards the authors has been = already extended to read the excellent  dataplane  design draft p= ut out by the according design team recently. I support that. Occam’s= razor in data plane goes a long way ;-)

    

thanks

 

--- tony

 

“Your work is to discover your work and then= with all your heart to give yourself to it.” --- Buddha

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE883eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Sat Oct 31 04:49:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883501A88DC for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3VUT7u6MmmEi for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D7611A88D4 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-e6-56343d8bd66f Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 89.BC.26730.B8D34365; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:03:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 07:49:25 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comments on draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt Thread-Index: AdETYZkauPcjCryLSP6TB8XjIfcjsw== Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:49:24 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879eusaamb103erics_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrHIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiG63rUmYwbJnOhZLZ+xhcmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxot/t5gL2h4xVvQ/OcPWwDjpGmMXIyeHhICJxM2fE5ghbDGJ C/fWs3UxcnEICRxhlDi+qpMNJCEksJxRYt8UsAY2AQuJy9+egjWICChLnD/UyA5iCwvYSsxY 9psVIu4kMfPGBCYIW09i3eXrYHNYBFQlFvc3g83hFfCVOP7kAlg9I9Di76fWgNUzC4hL3Hoy nwniIBGJhxdPs0HYohIvH/9jhbCVJOa8vsYMciizQDejRMO01ywQQwUlTs58wjKBUWgWklmz kNXNQlIHUZQvcbhvISOErSOxYPcnNghbW2LZwtfMMPaZA4+ZMMV1JH5/64KqV5S4fXUqK8Sy ZYwS91a+YYEp+nL1GiNM0ZTuh+wLGHlXMXKUFqeW5aYbGW5iBMbkMQk2xx2MCz5ZHmIU4GBU 4uHd4GscJsSaWFZcmXuIUQWo9dGG1RcYpVjy8vNSlUR4OyeYhAnxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9i lOZgURLnnTfjfqiQQHpiSWp2ampBahFMlomDU6qBsXXqz4kdrvXJO/bseMaqafr8a43wJBk7 DmHdhrAtjhId978UH7V/vueAgVLUkY7LygF3D7QZ/KtU31bFs1suurdLcOKaO+dndWz8E5Pa d4sxqWXusbYdy/1b/vfIPEj0eHua56bh/E6vY0w7pSU/qrDsPLDuunbRn3mp0xNaPqpFLfp/ rPwTgxJLcUaioRZzUXEiACBqonPRAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:49:29 -0000 --_004_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879eusaamb103erics_" --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Flew over the draft and I think (I did not have time to follow the extensiv= e exapmles given by the authors) that the draft as written will always dupl= icate given that a representation of hierarchical bitmasks given by authors= is not a datastructure that can represent a DAG without running @ least a = specialized O (N log(N)) computation over the bitmasks. Simple Banyan examp= le works easily (source is @ level 1 in my enumeration) [cid:image001.png@01D1132A.22A3CF50] Trying to describe something that delivers to the set of [ Source, Transit1= , Transit2, Sink2 ] cannot be done with 3 levels of bitmasks without replic= ating to Sink2 _UNLESS_ Source does not only compute level 2 bitmasks but a= lso level 3, i.e. computes that Transit2 and Transit1 receive _different_ l= evel3 bitmasks. The according computation is e.g. a Dijkstra that tie-break= s ECMPs (ONlogN is very dirty complexity measure for Dijkstra but sufficien= t for purpose of this discussion). I don't consider running Dijkstra's for the bitmasks (observe that set of r= eceivers will modify the necessary computation) and modifying the whole hie= rarchy per node the packet is replicated to something that is justifiable i= n complexity for what it achieves, especially given the size of the headers= we're talking. I would consider the BIER-TE suggestion significantly bette= r here. thanks --- tony "Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yo= urself to it." --- Buddha --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Flew over the draft and I think (I did not have time= to follow the extensive exapmles given by the authors) that the draft as w= ritten will always duplicate given that a representation of hierarchical bi= tmasks given by authors is not a datastructure that can represent a DAG without running @ least a specialized O (N log(N)= ) computation over the bitmasks. Simple Banyan example works easily (source= is @ level 1 in my enumeration)

 

Trying to describe something that delivers to the se= t of [ Source, Transit1, Transit2, Sink2 ] cannot be done with 3 levels of = bitmasks without replicating to Sink2 _UNLESS_ Source does not only = compute level 2 bitmasks but also level 3, i.e. computes that Transit2 and Transit1 receive _different_ level3 bitmasks. The according computation is e.g. a Dijkstra that tie-b= reaks ECMPs (ONlogN is very dirty complexity measure for Dijkstra but suffi= cient for purpose of this discussion).

 

I don’t consider running Dijkstra’s for = the bitmasks (observe that set of receivers will modify the necessary compu= tation) and modifying the whole hierarchy per node the packet is replicated= to something that is justifiable in complexity for what it achieves, especially given the size of the headers we’re= talking. I would consider the BIER-TE suggestion significantly better here= .

 

thanks

 

--- tony

 

“Your work is to discover your work and then= with all your heart to give yourself to it.” --- Buddha

 

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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ooIHuVsCP6Nk for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42D6D1A88E1 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:49:30 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-e8-56343d8fcc45 Received: from EUSAAHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.90]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C9.BC.26730.F8D34365; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:03:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC006.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 07:49:28 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comments on draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00.txt Thread-Index: AdETa/5NfyVKnZU6RBSR5QMrCxwuAw== Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:49:28 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE88B@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE88Beusaamb103erics_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPlG6/rUmYQdMNfYulM/YwOTB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoErY9ufbYwFj9YzVbyY8ZKtgfHSQqYuRk4OCQETialT97FD2GIS F+6tZwOxhQSOMEr8/prTxcgFZC9nlDj8oJ0VJMEmYCFx+dtTZhBbREBZ4vyhRrBmYQEHictX +oFq2IHirhJzNCAq9CSWPe4Fq2YRUJU41vUHbDyvgK/EmebfYBMZgdZ+P7UG7BxmAXGJW0/m Q50mIvHw4mk2CFtU4uXjf6wQtpLEnNfXmEFOYxboZpRo+fiOGWKooMTJmU9YJjAKzUIyaxay ullI6iCK8iXeXTzKCGHrSCzY/YkNwtaWWLbwNTOMfebAYyZMcR2J39+6oOoVJW5fncoKsWwZ o8TdV1/hirbevcUOUzSl+yH7AkbeVYwcpcWpZbnpRoabGIHxeEyCzXEH44JPlocYBTgYlXh4 N/gahwmxJpYVV+YeYlQBan20YfUFRimWvPy8VCUR3s4JJmFCvCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5 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As to specific algorithm, I suggest to model= it on the current DF election draft being hammered out for EVPN. Satya wro= te a good analysis of how to get a bunch of PEs to carve properly delivery = of BUM by VLAN/service (could be considered G here or something like this).= The FSM is simple and could be adopted and the key is stable hashing algo = which he extensively describes. I think it needs a priority extension for c= ouple reasons but I'll talk to Satya @ IETF if he's there and it may apply= here as well. Actually, the problem is not fully described I think, the election seems to= be suggested per G but it really is per G,LAN interface (as in broadcast d= omain) but if a listener is multi-homed over 2 p2p interfaces (multi-homed = like Group3), the problem gets funkier. [cid:image001.png@01D1133D.0FF9D8A0] Here it is impossible to have one single transit node being DF for the whol= e G, the election is per Ether to reach all receivers (but I think MLD do= es it already, don't remember the specifics). Observe that the fact that Tr= ansit 1 and Transit 3 don't even share a LAN does not prevent them from see= ing each other since the suggestion seems to be to run the election over th= e BIER multicast overlay ? thanks --- tony "Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yo= urself to it." --- Buddha --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE88Beusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Agreed with problem statement. As to specific algori= thm, I suggest to model it on the current DF election draft being hammered = out for EVPN. Satya wrote a good analysis of how to get a bunch of PEs to c= arve properly delivery of BUM by VLAN/service (could be considered G here or something like this). The FSM is simple and= could be adopted and the key is stable hashing algo which he extensively d= escribes. I think it needs a priority extension for couple reasons but = ; I’ll talk to Satya @ IETF if he’s there and it may apply here as well.

 

Actually, the problem is not fully described I think= , the election seems to be suggested per G but it really is per G,LAN inter= face (as in broadcast domain) but if a listener is multi-homed over 2 p2p i= nterfaces (multi-homed like Group3), the problem gets funkier.

 

 

Here it is impossible to have one single transit nod= e being DF for the whole G,   the election is per Ether to reach = all receivers (but I think MLD does it already, don’t remember the sp= ecifics). Observe that the fact that Transit 1 and Transit 3 don’t even share a LAN does not prevent them from seeing e= ach other since the suggestion seems to be to run the election over the BIE= R multicast overlay ?  

 

thanks =

&n= bsp;

--- = tony

 

“Your work is to discover your work and then= with all your heart to give yourself to it.” --- Buddha

 

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AdETc9CLvL69QEN+QwWRW4s5TdIdZw== Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:56:58 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8BA@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8BAeusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn26+t0mYwauv5hZLZ+xhcmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxpapR9kKvilUHN3TytrA2CvbxcjJISFgIrHuVyszhC0mceHe ejYQW0jgCKPEgZ2OXYxcQPZyRomvTz6wgCTYBCwkLn97CtYgIqAscf5QIzuILSygJ7Hi0TvW LkYOoLixxIuLrBAlehIzjv8AamXnYBFQlfhaDRLlFfCV+Dp1LiOIzQi09fupNUwgNrOAuMSt J/OZIK4RkFiy5zzUZaISLx//Y4WwlSTmvL7GDFGfL3Hs1GdmiJmCEidnPmGZwCg0C8moWUjK ZiEpg4jrSCzY/YkNwtaWWLbwNTOMfebAYyZk8QWM7KsYOUqLU8ty040MNjECQ/6YBJvuDsY9 Ly0PMQpwMCrx8H5oNQ4TYk0sK67MPcQowcGsJMLbOcEkTIg3JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeL 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I would assume that the amount of query/reports is neglectible compared to = the flows themselves and such 'broadcast option' could make deployments eas= ier. thanks --- tony "Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yo= urself to it." --- Buddha --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8BAeusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Only one suggestion, I think the ‘MUST be conf= igured with all ‘BMLD … nodes’ is maybe unnecessarily res= trictive, a SHOULD would serve the purpose with “otherwise, set all t= he bits in the sub-domain and send BIER packet that way”.

 

I would assume that the amount of query/reports is n= eglectible compared to the flows themselves and such ‘broadcast optio= n’ could make deployments easier.

 

thanks =

&n= bsp;

--- = tony

 

“Your work is to discover your work and then= with all your heart to give yourself to it.” --- Buddha

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8BAeusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Sat Oct 31 04:57:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DF71A89C7 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:57:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jd_Dz4ppRB7x for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E47651A8A23 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-1f-56343f538781 Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 7E.CC.26730.35F34365; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:10:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 07:57:01 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comments on draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01 Thread-Index: AdETcVD8drz5eHOcTUCkQRO/DHEpWg== Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:57:00 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8C2@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8C2eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoG6wvUmYQd9OI4ulM/YwOTB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr48eyZvaC7+oVv4/NZ2tgvKHUxcjJISFgIrF4VTMThC0mceHe erYuRi4OIYEjjBIPnrexQjjLGSUOTGxhB6liE7CQuPztKTOILSKgLHH+UCNYXFjAWmJxx2Em iLiDxMXHP1ghbD2J3RNWM3YxcnCwCKhKvHzuBhLmFfCVePZ0CSOIzQi0+PupNWCtzALiEree zIc6SEBiyZ7zzBC2qMTLx/9YIWwliTmvrzFD1OdLvD/xnR1ipqDEyZlPWCYwCs1CMmoWkrJZ SMog4joSC3Z/YoOwtSWWLXzNDGOfOfCYCVl8ASP7KkaO0uLUstx0I8NNjMDAPybB5riDccEn y0OMAhyMSjy8G3yNw4RYE8uKK3MPMUpwMCuJ8HZOMAkT4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIk zjtvxv1QIYH0xJLU7NTUgtQimCwTB6dUA2Nl995zF6qEl9U9PXbkl5Bs9LQ+ddNGrbddWk+2 XlVwkWV6sc6z+JTpLeVasUUVL4JYhSccljrINz1H9qTwqtWzvx35O+Xhj61PX27o/zTVRWBL XOT3dRPNTnKe/H3e+MTeiaeW/hRYOW0ZQ7VxV+mf29MNrJe9tIsRmBQ57VdT1/8ZkuKnNCz6 lViKMxINtZiLihMBb0iCD3gCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:57:09 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8C2eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Honestly, I'm rather lost what purpose the whole thing serves. If it has M = bit set it simply can generate contradicting packets, what if the BSL suppo= rted advertised here do not have align with what the MPLS encapsulation sub= -sub-TLV advertise. If M is not set, the encoding basically upside-downs the encoding that is h= ere today and worked on in the WG. What we need is simply another encapsul= ation sub-sub-TLV per sub-domain in existing encoding which if the intenti= on is to use IP encaps suggested in other drafts can be empty or will proba= bly carry the here shown BSL-identifier to indicate which BSLs are supporte= d. I admit that BIER-LITE is a catchy one though and (since I cannot resist th= e pun) I wait holding my breath and suspended on the edge of my sit for ORG= ANIC-BIER now ;-) thanks --- tony "Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yo= urself to it." --- Buddha --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8C2eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Honestly, I’m rather lost what purpose the who= le thing serves. If it has M bit set it simply can generate contradicting p= ackets, what if the BSL supported advertised here do not have align with wh= at the MPLS encapsulation sub-sub-TLV advertise.

 

If M is not set, the encoding basically upside-downs= the encoding that is here today and worked on in the WG.  What we nee= d is simply another encapsulation sub-sub-TLV per sub-domain  in exist= ing encoding which if the intention is to use IP encaps suggested in other drafts can be empty or will probably carry th= e here shown BSL-identifier to indicate which BSLs are supported.

 

I admit that BIER-LITE is a catchy one though and (s= ince I cannot resist the pun) I wait holding my breath and suspended on the= edge of my sit for ORGANIC-BIER now ;-)

 

thanks =

&n= bsp;

--- = tony

 

“Your work is to discover your work and then= with all your heart to give yourself to it.” --- Buddha

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8C2eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Sat Oct 31 04:57:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6FD71A89F9 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:57:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M2k-zrbeiWCk for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 611631A8A28 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 04:57:04 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-20-56343f55c044 Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 9E.CC.26730.55F34365; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 05:11:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 07:57:03 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comments on draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00 Thread-Index: AdETbbJlCa3PT6tkTsynqdFcvjDp1A== Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:57:02 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8CA@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8CAeusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiG6ovUmYwYVZphZLZ+xhcmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxorPz1kKDutXnFozg7mBsU2zi5GTQ0LARGLvyRUsELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hASOMEo0TZ/ECpIQEljOKHH7TimIzSZgIXH521NmEFtEQFni/KFGdhBbWMBMYtP8 u+wQcWuJTc+boWw9icU/LjKC2CwCqhJTPs0CW8Yr4Cvx7OMWJhCbEWjx91NrwGxmAXGJW0/m M0EcJCCxZM95ZghbVOLl43+sELaSxJzX15gh6vMlzq8/yA4xU1Di5MwnLBMYhWYhGTULSdks JGUQcR2JBbs/sUHY2hLLFr5mhrHPHHjMhCy+gJF9FSNHaXFqWW66keEmRmDgH5Ngc9zBuOCT 5SFGAQ5GJR7eDb7GYUKsiWXFlbmHGCU4mJVEeDsnmIQJ8aYkVlalFuXHF5XmpBYfYpTmYFES 5503436okEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJg1OqgXG9UkMx89oVF5UeNNjPMDovrLTq59nS8rfpVp/P xsp/tzh47qNPk+RPplTeVa3PEwuYprb1rppqZ57RYJchsU5Jq5KL/auv9Y5rJ7MXbmNj2b0i 4Wi7sPUbTaNwA5uyDBP5hwEuq5pfNzO8k7laM1XM483D6OQjC5o+5HjKMrgnxx8/yRu6QYml OCPRUIu5qDgRACoHNqd4AgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:57:11 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8CAeusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree with the mechanism suggested since the membership needs to be ex= changed only between BFERs and not flooded everywhere. This makes it an ove= rlay problem and sticking the information into the BIER layer will blow it = up for no apparent reason. As to VNI membership/slicing overlay, yes, absolutely necessary for VxLAN,= no discussion. A possibility is to build a simple thing along the lines of= router-side MLD where the VNI membership is blasted to all other BFERs in = a well known subdomain containing the BFERs subdomain+VNIs (roughly like s= uggested in the reference format) would solve the problem without melting d= own the IGP flooding (there is a subtle problem when BFERs join late where = they need to Query, here the stuff will look more and more like MLD). Or th= e procedures vxLAN uses today using G can be possibly used directly. In any= case, I think that the procedures to elect a DF for the VNIs will apply ju= st like suggested by Ice's new draft unless we e.g. map the VNIs statically= into Gs like 240.* (I hope I remember the mcast range correctly ;-) but I = think this will not be an acceptable solution. Look for the draft-pfister-bier-mld for further inspiration thanks --- tony "Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yo= urself to it." --- Buddha --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8CAeusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I disagree with the me= chanism suggested since the membership needs to be exchanged only between B= FERs and not flooded everywhere. This makes it an overlay problem and stick= ing the information into the BIER layer will blow it up for no apparent reason.

 

As to VNI membership/s= licing overlay, yes, absolutely necessary for  VxLAN, no discussion. A= possibility is to build a simple thing along the lines of router-side MLD = where the VNI membership is blasted to all other BFERs in a well known subdomain containing the BFERs subdomain+V= NIs  (roughly like suggested in the reference format) would solve the = problem without melting down the IGP flooding (there is a subtle problem wh= en BFERs join late where they need to Query, here the stuff will look more and more like MLD). Or the procedures vxLAN = uses today using G can be possibly used directly. In any case, I think that= the procedures to elect a DF for the VNIs will apply just like suggested b= y Ice’s new draft unless we e.g. map the VNIs statically into Gs like 240.* (I hope I remember the mcast ra= nge correctly ;-) but I think this will not be an acceptable solution.

 

Look for the draft-pfi= ster-bier-mld for further inspiration

 

thanks =

&n= bsp;

--- = tony

 

“Your work is to discover your work and then= with all your heart to give yourself to it.” --- Buddha

 

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE8CAeusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Sat Oct 31 09:03:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6601A6FED for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DC_PNG_UNO_LARGO=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_08=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wubdKfYoOQXo for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x230.google.com (mail-qg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 605C41A6FE8 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qgbb65 with SMTP id b65so84911499qgb.2 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=N584AgBNuXGkkV2aRG7rdYnavAaZ9cRB8w37uG+xC18=; b=aTpoigvqcrwl2OZ3//sPcB/tW2Sn2gJte+oLZNfs6Ttg/hLDOAI/u67IsB1NFqAMJB 3OAYHid7f6pjWOgJuzT1qbqXyk/zeBWyFwS0W2tsYavf7hWPll0OO74LVXL8MXXC0FVS JSordZ992uCQZ+y56Y1Fy+ZzZfNCwXUErFJfbmpcUvakC4cqhhb5+un/vooD2Y/C71zO Mj11tN0BDXqkU9nyZhgRf9Ynn7rDYEDuhsOngWya6Z8d+mgFZyjLQYUGBYUgy1CYHU48 owyqmoz+6KJYhAGPepNZX9OAYcj7w38cxTSMleCPACr4ux8xozK5Eafhz9z1FdOkaUd0 3xEg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.83.227 with SMTP id j90mr18033395qgd.27.1446307430361; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.55.105.68 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE88B@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE88B@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:03:50 -0700 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: Antoni Przygienda Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=001a11c11cd29fc713052368b050 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:03:53 -0000 --001a11c11cd29fc713052368b050 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c11cd29fc710052368b04f --001a11c11cd29fc710052368b04f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inline: On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 4:49 AM, Antoni Przygienda < antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com> wrote: > Agreed with problem statement. As to specific algorithm, I suggest to > model it on the current DF election draft being hammered out for EVPN. > Satya wrote a good analysis of how to get a bunch of PEs to carve properl= y > delivery of BUM by VLAN/service (could be considered G here or something > like this). The FSM is simple and could be adopted and the key is stable > hashing algo which he extensively describes. I think it needs a priority > extension for couple reasons but I=E2=80=99ll talk to Satya @ IETF if he= =E2=80=99s there > and it may apply here as well. > > > > Actually, the problem is not fully described I think, the election seems > to be suggested per G but it really is per G,LAN interface (as in broadca= st > domain) but if a listener is multi-homed over 2 p2p interfaces (multi-hom= ed > like Group3), the problem gets funkier. > > > > > > Here it is impossible to have one single transit node being DF for the > whole G, the election is per Ether to reach all receivers (but I think > MLD does it already, don=E2=80=99t remember the specifics). Observe that = the fact > that Transit 1 and Transit 3 don=E2=80=99t even share a LAN does not prev= ent them > from seeing each other since the suggestion seems to be to run the electi= on > over the BIER multicast overlay ? > I don't think this was the suggestion. The election needs to take place over the same interfaces where there are redundant nodes - where they see each other. Greg > thanks > > > > *--- tony* > > > > =E2=80=9CYour work is to discover your work and then with all your heart = to give > yourself to it.=E2=80=9D --- *Buddha* > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --001a11c11cd29fc710052368b04f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inline:

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 4:49 AM, Antoni Przygienda <antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com> wrote:

Agreed with problem statement. As to specific algori= thm, I suggest to model it on the current DF election draft being hammered = out for EVPN. Satya wrote a good analysis of how to get a bunch of PEs to c= arve properly delivery of BUM by VLAN/service (could be considered G here or something like this). The FSM is simple and= could be adopted and the key is stable hashing algo which he extensively d= escribes. I think it needs a priority extension for couple reasons but=C2= =A0 I=E2=80=99ll talk to Satya @ IETF if he=E2=80=99s there and it may apply here as well.

=C2=A0

Actually, the problem is not fully described I think= , the election seems to be suggested per G but it really is per G,LAN inter= face (as in broadcast domain) but if a listener is multi-homed over 2 p2p i= nterfaces (multi-homed like Group3), the problem gets funkier.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Here it is impossible to have one single transit nod= e being DF for the whole G,=C2=A0=C2=A0 the election is per Ether to reach = all receivers (but I think MLD does it already, don=E2=80=99t remember the = specifics). Observe that the fact that Transit 1 and Transit 3 don=E2=80=99t even share a LAN does not prevent them from seeing= each other since the suggestion seems to be to run the election over the B= IER multicast overlay ? =C2=A0


<= div>I don't think this was the suggestion. The election needs to take p= lace over the same interfaces where there are redundant nodes - where they = see each other.

Greg
=C2=A0
=

thanks =

= =C2=A0

--- = tony

<= /u>=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CYour work is to discover yo= ur work and then with all your heart to give yourself to it.=E2=80=9D --- Buddha

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


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from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B800E1B4B48 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lffz202 with SMTP id z202so49105455lff.3 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:12:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=venaas_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=C8IHJEjhAL8EbfEd46Tc+IMkouytA+BA2qS50G7UWtw=; b=soGe3Qyj3RtaTm5uMJgWJF+NIwImpMn+18kUyz4qMlXEsr3qF119vJRrHMbO+WJ2op g/8NGI4qgStKcSB5cUxWGW6uS5J/5XCFwoVNb1F2y0nOLjiSbQ8RYQGfLqzbJhw0cZeN GGazR3TKQ+qJAByqlhoJ1608yzH6bLbz4Z9eqGsgzpNcGnJv31Lm8Zwy03iRloH0Ot1K xQXjXNaCNWJfBORsYHkVUuY9/+hHSMoPUYCLHG0k2ZOcJsrKXzcyisWfulNwfY7+drZc slaaFygTSqivYVe2Z3NJ9tWnJS0NkwR6J1kPc5lR0VjSYbpaGMYHVxKWpwbpPgUmIzR3 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<20151016082932.18066.91187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <68C676AF-8D80-4093-A211-218D3D55E02A@cisco.com> <5FA669BC-FA91-4545-AE4C-669B1DC4C8CE@cisco.com> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:12:00 -0700 Message-ID: From: Stig Venaas To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: wang.cui1@zte.com.cn, "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-wang-bier-lite-ospf-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 01:12:04 -0000 I think it is useful to allow for BIER in non-MPLS networks, but one could still for efficiency use 20-bit fields where their meaning is defined by what is announced in the IGP. One could call them MPLS labels or something else, it doesn't matter. It wouldn't be MPLS forwarding, just a compact encoding. One question perhaps though, is whether it is useful in some cases to encode this information directly, rather than the indirection which requires the additional information in the IGP, or other means. Stig On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:16 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Hi Linda, > >> Thanks for your patient explanation :) >> In fact, I totally agree that BIER-MPLS using MPLS label to lookup BIF= T table is a perfect solution. > > No problem :-). > >> Here, about BIER-Lite, it is just another choice for some operators wh= o would like to run native IP network. Maybe it is not exactly correct to c= all this solution BIER-Lite, but the purpose of this solution, as you know,= just for non-MPLS network. It is not MUST required to carry BSL informatio= n together with MPLS label information. In non-MPLS network, it seems accep= table to carry BSL information together with BIER info sub-TLV instead. So = I propose to carry BSL information in BIER info sub-TLV. If this solution i= s worthy discussing, maybe we can change the name BIER-Lite to another more= accurate one :) > > Its probably good to checkout below draft first. > > https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-rtgwg-dt-encap-00.txt > > Thx, > > Ice. > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Sat Oct 31 19:19:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155751B514F for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:19:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DC_PNG_UNO_LARGO=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_08=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ivOBIlfLyWIx for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC57F1B514D for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:19:42 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-77-5635097bc04a Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 5F.54.26730.B7905365; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:33:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 31 Oct 2015 22:19:41 -0400 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "gjshep@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: [Bier] comments on draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00.txt Thread-Index: AdETa/5NfyVKnZU6RBSR5QMrCxwuAwAq0QEAAAuj5CA= Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 02:19:40 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFEF0A@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE88B@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFEF0Aeusaamb103erics_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrJIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn241p2mYwcmVGhZLZ+xhstgyJ8+B yWPnrLvsHkuW/GQKYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgytg/4TRTwZ43TBXdPW+YGhivPWLqYuTkkBAw kbjaPpkRwhaTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMARRokn+z4xQzjLGSWufl/CBlLFJmAhcfnbU2YQW0RAU+L9 ya9gk5gFlCU+b54EZgsLeEtcuHKYDaLGR+Li7dMsELaVxOf9bWA2i4CKxIozDaxdjBwcvAK+ Eq/ny0DsmsIoceLgS7A5nAKBEvcXzmMFsRmBrvt+ag3ULnGJW0/mQ30gIvHw4mk2CFtU4uXj f6wQtpLEx9/z2SHquxklNmwXAbF5BQQlTs58wjKBUXQWklGzkJTNQlIGEc+XWP14J/MsoFOZ gV5ev0sfIqwoMaX7ITuErSHROmcuO6a4jsTvb11sMPHbV6eyzgJ6k1lgGaPE0h+fWGCKln7a zYSseQEj7ypGjtLi1LLcdCPDTYzASD8mwea4g3HBJ8tDjAIcjEo8vAbzTcKEWBPLiitzDzGq ALU+2rD6AqMUS15+XqqSCO+ieNMwId6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4zSHCxK4rzzZtwPFRJITyxJ zU5NLUgtgskycXBKNTA6TF8Z9m7fFhcLpXchXQsjkg5kKLRN4Kn5Z/JI+du1r6cO/er78Ojz 8XO+jzp8842vBGQ5yE+ZJPS28/I5V4tZ153VeBfny/2ynNq2K5flfd6fj9knYpnUpdStmvdb Fb8y51+5NN+4sXjuj8pj5+JWrLGUfFo6afWzx3/W8ei/PxeTndP14be1EktxRqKhFnNRcSIA UJnud/wCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 02:19:45 -0000 --_004_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFEF0Aeusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFEF0Aeusaamb103erics_" 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