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Hi Tony,

 

Thanks a lot for your good suggestions. Please see my reply inline.

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: BIER [bier-bounces@iet= f.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Antoni Przygienda [antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2015=C4=EA10=D4=C231=C8=D5 19:49
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: bier@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Bier] comments on draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-03

Re-read and rethought. The key lookup will be pretty= wide but if one can afford the TCAMs and would want to build something lik= e this I guess it=A1=AFs feasible.

 

Architecturally the information carried in this enca= psulation is more than necessary (which is NOT good). The architecture clea= rly indicates that a sub-domain MUST match onto one MT-ID and with that car= rying both is superfluous, carrying subdomain is good enough. This also resolves the issue of e.g. driving thi= s encapsulation with idr-extensions which doesn=A1=AFt even carry a multi-t= opology concept.

 

[Xiaohu] OK,  we will remove the MT-ID field fr= om the BIER header so as to keep it consistent with the current B= IER architecture.

 

As well, why does the encaps carry BFR-id ? is that = source/destination/originator ? None of those seem necessary to me ?

 

[Xiaohu] BFR-id indicates the ingress BFR. It may be=  neccessary in some use cases such as performance measurement.

 

I think the suggestion towards the authors has been = already extended to read the excellent  dataplane  design draft p= ut out by the according design team recently. I support that. Occam=A1=AFs = razor in data plane goes a long way ;-)

 

[Xiaohu] Thanks again for your valuable suggestions.=

Best regards,

Xiaohu

 

    

thanks

 

--- tony

 

Buddha

 

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4167BNKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 18:24:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E008E1ACDFD for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:24:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ctGedHXu5k0V for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x22f.google.com (mail-io0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5ED1E1ACDFF for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by iody8 with SMTP id y8so130276652iod.1 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:24:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=21bTYuplHJSgK/oUF5GVO4Qf+4jerBHiTKm6auIULi0=; b=U87q1WWnCxQ8lUaOsWIiXPOFThLZ5qSBeQR8GzauWU0r53onlZGQ+sL4wr/Y/wk47z evhlp7quoUNeTuHsWpYWVqDu2nwPVV7ideq9HNZNKYht6mBN8/kRAEtp6Q3FjAUQCEgR gTWnU0cSDM8c0ryPIiY/Q862AfLU6ElZij2KBFbUlxDc4UYbVQFBtkMd5GuF3JuGSHOA WrPq3dzTimuse5Bz3NAELICraOuWc5FkGgWGP1/HE/bMBgmE+WLKw83zeh7vLeUmChVx qrCUkrHnaVa96NNf9Hf53JLaJc7HWD/8wvHD9fAiiLupDT8FazPWOn4gHv1wIzQqkn8V 6O+Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.136.30 with SMTP id k30mr11662255iod.163.1446431053878; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:24:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4167B@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE883@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4167B@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:24:13 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: Xuxiaohu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ecc50289af00523857970 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 02:24:16 -0000 --001a113ecc50289af00523857970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Architecturally the information carried in this encapsulation is more than > necessary (which is NOT good). The architecture clearly indicates that a > sub-domain MUST match onto one MT-ID and with that carrying both is > superfluous, carrying subdomain is good enough. This also resolves the > issue of e.g. driving this encapsulation with idr-extensions which doesn= =E2=80=99t > even carry a multi-topology concept. > > > > [Xiaohu] OK, we will remove the MT-ID field from the BIER header so as > to keep it consistent with the current BIER architecture. > ack > > > As well, why does the encaps carry BFR-id ? is that > source/destination/originator ? None of those seem necessary to me ? > > > > [Xiaohu] BFR-id indicates the ingress BFR. It may be neccessary in some > use cases such as performance measurement. > ok, if it's not used for the forwarding decision not much I can say about it. We have however OAM drafts which provide for precisely this kind of stuff so I suggest reading those. Putting OAM fields into forwarding header is maybe not the best decision here .. > > --001a113ecc50289af00523857970 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Architecturally the information carried in this enca= psulation is more than necessary (which is NOT good). The architecture clea= rly indicates that a sub-domain MUST match onto one MT-ID and with that car= rying both is superfluous, carrying subdomain is good enough. This also resolves the issue of e.g. driving thi= s encapsulation with idr-extensions which doesn=E2=80=99t even carry a mult= i-topology concept.

=C2=A0

[Xiaohu] OK,=C2=A0 we will remove the MT-ID f= ield from the BIER header so as to=C2=A0keep it=C2=A0consistent with the cu= rrent BIER architecture.


ack
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As well, why does the encaps carry BFR-id ? is that = source/destination/originator ? None of those seem necessary to me ?

=C2=A0

[Xiaohu] BFR-id indicates the ingress BFR. It= may be=C2=A0neccessary in some use cases such as=C2=A0performance measurem= ent.



=
ok, if it's not used for the forwarding decision not much I = can say about it. We have however OAM drafts which provide for precisely th= is kind of stuff so I suggest reading those. Putting OAM fields into forwar= ding header is maybe not the best decision here =C2=A0..=C2=A0
= =C2=A0


--001a113ecc50289af00523857970-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 01:04:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264C61B3544; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:04:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Koyuaz7sbhy; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BFD1B3547; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id A43F2CF38E8B4; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:04:41 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id tA2936OR066112; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:03:15 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: References: <20151019022713.12650.22136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 92C39ACF:6179130C-48257EF1:002F638D; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:02:54 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-11-02 17:03:03 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_mixed 0031BCDD48257EF1_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn tA2936OR066112 Archived-At: Cc: "chen.ran@zte.com.cn" , "bier@ietf.org" , "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" , 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with ESMTP id 25jWtjJQagKS; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5366E1B356E; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id F0C051CEDB40; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:31:07 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id tA29RtQ1027681; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:28:09 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> To: Antoni Przygienda MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: 90CD55C1:7AD9CB04-48257EF1:0032ADFC; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:28:11 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on 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Hi Fangwei,

Comments <RR> on couple of your repli= es 

  • bitstringlengthenum is defined in a couple of pl= aces, instead you should have a typedef and use that typedef for all your b= itstringlength leaf nodes. There are also some bitstringlength leaf nodes w= hich are of type uint16, I believe this is incorrect.
[hfw] We  Define two types of bitstringLenths (= imposition and disposition) instead of one just for more flexibility.  = ;If the type is enumeration, the values are 64, 128, 256,512,etc. 
If the type of bitstringlength is uint16, it means t= hat the bitstringlength is a unique value. 
<RR> You can still have a typedef for the enumeration, in the cur= rent model the enumeration is defined twice.

  • For bfr-nbr you don=A1=AFt need to have your own= union of  ipv4-address and ipv6-address, use existing ip-address type= def from RFC6021
[hfw] The bfr-nbr may be a IPv4 address or IPv6 addr= ess. 
<= RR> This is ok. My point is that you don=A1=AFt have to define the union, you can r= euse existing ip-address type, it=A1=AFs a union so can be V4 or V6.

  • The BIRT portion needs to be described in sectio= n 5, e.g. why that key was chosen etc etc. Not a BIER expert but I am not s= ure the routing table as modelled is complete/correct.
[hfw] We can identify a BIRT entry if we use the three keys(sub-domain-id, = bitstringlength, SI).
<RR> What you have to consider, and maybe you have already, is w= hether you want to be able to e.g. list all the entries for 1 sub-domain. I= f you do, then you may want to have nested containers as opposed to using a= composite key.

Regards,
Reshad.


From: "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>
Date: Monday, November 2, 2015 at 5= :02 AM
To: Reshad <rrahman@cisco.com>
Cc: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@i= etf.org>, BIER <bier-bou= nces@ietf.org>, "chen.ra= n@zte.com.cn" <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>, &q= uot;Mahesh Sivakumar (masivaku)" <masivaku@cisco.com>, "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: Re: [Bier] N= ew Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt

Hi, Reshad

Thanks for your comments.

Please see inline marked with [hfw].

Hi,

Took a look and here are some quick comme= nts:
  • bitstringlengthenum is defined in a c= ouple of places, instead you should have a typedef and use that typedef for= all your bitstringlength leaf nodes. There are also some bitstringlength l= eaf nodes which are of type uint16, I believe this is incorrect.
[hfw] We  Define two types of bitstr= ingLenths (imposition and disposition) instead of one just for more flexibi= lity.  If the type is enumeration, the values are 64, 128, 256,512,etc= .
If the type of bitstringlength is uint16,= it means that the bitstringlength is a unique value.
  • Leaf SI, in description spell out the= full name =A1=B0Set identifier=A1=B1.
[hfw]Ok.
  • Might be good to have a type for BIER= base types such as SI, sub-domain ID etc. YANG experts can advise you on t= his.
[hfw]Ok.
  • For AF, my understanding is = that recommendation is to have a list indexed by AF, so you could combine l= ist ipv4 and list ipv6 into 1 list . Please take a look at draft-raza-mpls-= ldp-mldp-yang-02 for an example.

[hfw] There are some documents defines th= at IPv4 and IPv6  separately, while the mpls ldp mldp yang data uses t= he list indexed by AF, so I am not sure which one is better.
  • For label instead of uint32 = you should eventually use mpls-label from ietf-mpls.yang

[hfw]Ok. We will use mpls-lable instead o= f uint32.
  • For bfr-nbr you don=A1=AFt n= eed to have your own union of  ipv4-address and ipv6-address, use exis= ting ip-address typedef from RFC6021

[hfw] The bfr-nbr may be a IPv4 address o= r IPv6 address.
  • The BIRT portion needs to be describe= d in section 5, e.g. why that key was chosen etc etc. Not a BIER expert but= I am not sure the routing table as modelled is complete/correct.
[hfw] We can identify a BIRT entry if = we use the three keys(sub-domain-id, bitstringlength, SI).


Regards.
Fangwei.



"Reshad Rahm= an (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.c= om>

2015-10-31 05:44

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB
 "chen.ran@zte.com.cn" <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>,
=B3=AD=CB=CD
 "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf= .org>, BIER <bier-bounce= s@ietf.org>, "hu.fangw= ei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>= , "Mahesh Sivakumar (masivaku)" <masivaku@cisco.com>, "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
=D6=F7=CC=E2
 Re: [Bier] New Version Notificatio= n for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt





Hi,

Took a look and here are some quick comme= nts:
  • bitstringlengthenum is defined in a c= ouple of places, instead you should have a typedef and use that typedef for= all your bitstringlength leaf nodes. There are also some bitstringlength l= eaf nodes which are of type uint16, I believe this is incorrect.
  • Leaf SI, in description spell out the full name =A1=B0Set identifier= =A1=B1.
  • Might be good to h= ave a type for BIER base types such as SI, sub-domain ID etc. YANG experts = can advise you on this.
  • Fo= r AF, my understanding is that recommendation is to have a list indexed by = AF, so you could combine list ipv4 and list ipv6 into 1 list . Please take = a look at draft-raza-mpls-ldp-mldp-yang-02 for an example.
  • <= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri">For label instead of uint32 you should eve= ntually use mpls-label from ietf-mpls.yang
  • For bfr-nbr you don=A1=AFt need to have your own union of =  ipv4-address and ipv6-address, use existing ip-address typedef from R= FC6021
  • The BIRT portion ne= eds to be described in section 5, e.g. why that key was chosen etc etc. Not= a BIER expert but I am not sure the routing table as modelled is complete/= correct.

Regards,
Reshad.

From: "chen.ran@zte.com.cn"= <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>
Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 at 2:38 AM
To: Reshad <rrahman@cisco.com<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri">>
Cc: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri">>, BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org>, "hu.fangw= ei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Mahesh Sivakumar (masivaku)" <= masivaku@cisco.com>, "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zhe= ng@zte.com.cn>
Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-ya= ng-01.txt

Hi Reshad,
Thank you your comments.
please see inline.Thanks.

Regards,
Ran





=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:         "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com= >
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB:         "chen.ran@zte.com.cn" <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>,
=B3=AD=CB=CD:        "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.= fangwei@zte.com.cn>, "Mahesh Sivakumar \(masivaku\)" <mas= ivaku@cisco.com>
=C8=D5=C6=DA:         2015/10/22 22:10
=D6=F7=CC=E2:        Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-= 01.txt
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:        "BIER" <bier-bounc= es@ietf.org><= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri">



Hi,

Repeating the same comments as for 00, the 2 following comments still apply= for sure
  • Please follow RFC6087 guidelines e.g.= use of <CODE BEGINS>, <CODE ENDS> etc      
  • <Ran>= ;: OK. we will add it in next version. Thanks  
  • Finally, please use the validator @ http://www.yangvalidator.com/          
  • <Ran>:  Sure, we have use= d this validator, and have passed.Please see below:

Regards,
Reshad.

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "chen.ran@zte.com.cn" <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 4:59 AM
To: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri">>
Cc: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn= " <= zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>= , "Mahesh Sivakumar (masivaku)" <masivaku= @cisco.com>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>
Subject: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-0= 1.txt

Hi all=A3=AC
We have updated draft-chh-bier-bier-yang to 01 version.
The link is=A3=BA  https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chh-bier-bier-ya= ng-01.txt
Any comments and suggestion are welcome. Thanks.
Regards,
Ran


internet-drafts@ietf.org =D0=B4=D3=DA 2015/10/19 10:27:13:

> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  internet-drafts@= ietf.org
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB:  "Xianxian Dai" <dai.xianxian@zte.com.cn>,
> "dai.xianxian@zte.com.cn" <da= i.xianxian@zte.com.cn>, "Zheng Zhang"
> <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, "fangwei hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>,
> "Fangwei Hu" <hu.fangwei@zte.com= .cn>, "Ran Chen&qu= ot;
> <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>, "Mahesh Sivakumar" <masivaku@cisco.com>,
> "Zheng Zhang" <zhang.zheng@zte.= com.cn>, "Mahesh S= ivakumar"
> <masivaku@cisco.com>, "Ran Chen" <= chen.ran@zte.com.cn>= ,
> =C8=D5=C6=DA:  2015/10/19 10:27
> =D6=F7=CC=E2: New Version Notification for draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01= .txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Ran Chen and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:      draft-chh-bier-bier-yang
> Revision:   01
> Title:      YANG Data Model for BIER Protocol
> Document date:   2015-10-16
> Group:      Individual Submission
> Pages:      17
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chh-bie= r-
> bier-yang-01.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chh-bier-bier-y= ang/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ch= h-bier-bier-yang-01
>
> Abstract:
>    This document defines a YANG data model for BIER configur= ation and
>    operation.
>
>                     =                      = ;                     &nb= sp;              
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> The IETF Secretariat
>
-----=C0=B4=D7=D4 <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn= > =B5= =C4=CF=FB=CF=A2=A3=AC=D4=DA Thu, 23 Jul 2015 20:46:17 +0800 -----
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB:
 "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" &= lt;rrahman@cisco.com>
=B3=AD=CB=CD:=
"draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org" <draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2:=
Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-chh-bier= -bier-yang-00


Hi, Rahman,

Thanks for your comments, we will correct it based on your suggestion.

Regards
Fangwei.
"Reshad Rahm= an (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com= >
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:  "BIER" <= bier-bounces@ietf.org&g= t;

2015-07-23 19:43


=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8= =CB
 "draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org" <draft-chh-bier-bier-yang@tools.ietf.org>,
=B3=AD=CB=CD
 "bier@iet= f.org" <= bier@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2
 [Bier] Comments on draft-chh-bier-= bier-yang-00









Hi authors,
  • I tried to pyang the model in the dra= ft and ran into quite a few errors. I stopped after the 4 below (these are = basic YANG errors, wasn=A1=AFt even using strict/ietf option)
    • Once you fix these errors please compil= e with =A1=AAietf option (sricter rules regarding ordering of statements, r= equiring description etc etc)
  • Please follow RFC6087 guidelines e.g. use of <CODE BEGINS>, <C= ODE ENDS> etc
  • Finally, = please use the validator @ http://www.yangvalidat= or.com/

Regards,
Reshad.

ERRORS

No =A1=B0=A1=B1 for the contact=
ietf-bier.yang:34: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword &qu= ot;contact", looking at L

Extra =A1=B0 in "reference "draft-chen-bier-bier-yang-00=A1=B1; 59: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "reference&qu= ot;, looking at d

Missing ; in key "sub-domain-id"
125: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "key", = looking at l

Missing ; in type if:interface-ref
154: error: unterminated statement definition for keyword "type",= looking at }


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BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/bier
[=B8=BD=BC=FE "ATT00002.txt" =B1=BB =B3=C2=C8=BB080434/user/zte_l= td =C9=BE=B3=FD]__________________= _____________________________
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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yRJq7IrPZkDU for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAD751A0053 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 01:38:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=824; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446457114; x=1447666714; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=qRuRrgUGhTUq+QL+r/JUuBen23CLl0r83q71ptXjTtQ=; b=JfWMQUBNp/8o2udEUEe7V1cDWWimc8xzMMyHLjHvguOupRNDaooKbegU LVrY+EPEEO+HdXYP6nX16LrEq30vqdzLfKrhTqF8XYUtxXRsZ5PdlQ9ZO 9/szC+qyMbAeYWRCRs6zuDiF3cFr+DPAbqpNXhPeejeXoX3WbQvkOHBnu A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AqCwCFLjdW/xbLJq1erz4FAYENlVCGGQKBdQEBAQEBAYELhDYBAQMBOj8FCwtGVwaIOwjBLwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBHIYwgleCboRcg1CBFAEEjhCIM40liRmTIWOCFhiBZS+GMgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,234,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="607919116" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Nov 2015 09:38:32 +0000 Received: from [10.61.196.246] ([10.61.196.246]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA29cRPG026908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Nov 2015 09:38:30 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:38:31 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE883@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4167B@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Tony Przygienda X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 09:38:37 -0000 Hi Guys, > As well, why does the encaps carry BFR-id ? is that = source/destination/originator ? None of those seem necessary to me ? >=20 > =20 > [Xiaohu] BFR-id indicates the ingress BFR. It may be neccessary in = some use cases such as performance measurement. >=20 >=20 >=20 > ok, if it's not used for the forwarding decision not much I can say = about it. We have however OAM drafts which provide for precisely this = kind of stuff so I suggest reading those. Putting OAM fields into = forwarding header is maybe not the best decision here ..=20 In MPLS encapsulation, the BFR-id is used as the Context to do the = upstream label lookup. So it is part of the disposition decision, which = is related to forwarding on the egress. Is VPN context supported in this = encapsulation? Thx, Ice.= From nobody Mon Nov 2 05:17:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5537C1B3633; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:17:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dwt08w0YcIgu; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:17:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 069761B362D; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:17:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by iody8 with SMTP id y8so142558192iod.1; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 05:17:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=eYM6IixZKgEHfrUHATbEd79sPxuuuhMv2CbK7P3shNs=; b=f549SQMT3zEX3Z/iQgmNLG2uBVxi+OXbFk0V5s7e5QRDO9f4bVH60CQ7IkRFu9JUj7 fzpsXH61mByqSsAmZpy/HAQItY7wh12M3b+k3l/JwhG9ZRLERn8VqGm31sUq79oJk7GV qAE9uGAAgyFY9X1z08dXTL7zrU6v/ZH8a1GW85Q8qtvztIRxFGglGg1usPfmbHgLuf4G s9tZy3Ak0mWi79EZ/0+HvHX0Z79zeG3BjRQakRwKcjPSBSoq9mQwkqiPx3ZlFc0XUM2E UUJs5hkonoZj6sWjBcf3OmgLNZPjDnNN5L/oSPRr5ySf1yDNxm/7RktV3TeCtnUVJkZn e0Rg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.11.100 with SMTP id v97mr26193786ioi.56.1446470249265; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 05:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:17:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:17:29 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=001a113dea6a635cab05238e99e9 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda , BIER Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 13:17:32 -0000 --001a113dea6a635cab05238e99e9 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113dea6a635ca705238e99e8 --001a113dea6a635ca705238e99e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TE does not seem to define hierarchical masks and I fear you missed my point ... -- tony On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 1:28 AM, wrote: > Hi Tony, > > Thank for your comments. The algorithm in BIER-TE-Arch is that > every BIER node calculates their TE forwarding table separately. And > the TE-forwarding-table is not the same as the the forwarding table > that is defined in BIER-Arch. The matching rules that is defined > in BIER-TE-Arch is special too. > This forwarding table which is defined in this draft(designed- > routing) is the same as BIER-Arch. And the matching rules in this > draft is the same as BIER-Arch. So there is no additional calculation > in BIER node rather than the calculation defined in the BIER-TE-Arch. > > Best regards, > Sandy > > > > > *Antoni Przygienda >* > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: "BIER" > > 2015-10-31 =E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=88 07:49 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA > "bier@ietf.org" , > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81 > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98 > [Bier] comments on draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00.txt > > > > > Flew over the draft and I think (I did not have time to follow the > extensive exapmles given by the authors) that the draft as written will > always duplicate given that a representation of hierarchical bitmasks giv= en > by authors is not a datastructure that can represent a DAG without runnin= g > @ least a specialized O (N log(N)) computation over the bitmasks. Simple > Banyan example works easily (source is @ level 1 in my enumeration) > > > Trying to describe something that delivers to the set of [ Source, > Transit1, Transit2, Sink2 ] cannot be done with 3 levels of bitmasks > without replicating to Sink2 _*UNLESS*_ Source does not only compute > level 2 bitmasks but also level 3, i.e. computes that Transit2 and Transi= t1 > receive _*different*_ level3 bitmasks. The according computation is e.g. > a Dijkstra that tie-breaks ECMPs (ONlogN is very dirty complexity measure > for Dijkstra but sufficient for purpose of this discussion). > > I don=E2=80=99t consider running Dijkstra=E2=80=99s for the bitmasks (obs= erve that set of > receivers will modify the necessary computation) and modifying the whole > hierarchy per node the packet is replicated to something that is > justifiable in complexity for what it achieves, especially given the size > of the headers we=E2=80=99re talking. I would consider the BIER-TE sugges= tion > significantly better here. > > thanks > > *--- tony* > > =E2=80=9CYour work is to discover your work and then with all your heart = to give > yourself to it.=E2=80=9D --- *Buddha* > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --001a113dea6a635ca705238e99e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
TE does not seem to define hierarchical masks and I fear y= ou missed my point ...=C2=A0

-- tony=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015= at 1:28 AM, <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
Hi Tony,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thank for your comme= nts. The algorithm in BIER-TE-Arch is that
every BIER node calculates their T= E forwarding table separately. And
the TE-forwarding-table is not the= same as the the forwarding table
that is defined in BIER-Arch. The = matching rules that is defined
in BIER-TE-Arch is special too.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This forwarding tabl= e which is defined in this draft(designed-
routing) is the same as BIER-Arch.= And the matching rules in this
draft is the same as BIER-Arch. So= there is no additional calculation
in BIER node rather than the calcu= lation defined in the BIER-TE-Arch.

Best regards,
Sandy




Antoni Przygienda= <an= toni.przygienda@ericsson.com>
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: =C2= =A0"BIER" <bier-bounces@ietf.org>

2015-10-31 =E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=88 07:49=

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB= =B6=E4=BA=BA
"bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>,
=E6=8A=84=E9=80= =81
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2= =98
[Bier] comments on draft-zhan= g-bier-designed-routing-00.txt





Flew over the draft and I think (I di= d not have time to follow the extensive exapmles given by the authors) that the draft as written will always duplicate given that a representation of hierarchical bitmasks given by authors is not a datastructure that can represent a DAG without running @ least a specialized O (N log(N)) computat= ion over the bitmasks. Simple Banyan example works easily (source is @ level 1 in my enumeration)
=C2=A0

Trying to describe something that del= ivers to the set of [ Source, Transit1, Transit2, Sink2 ] cannot be done with 3 levels of bitmasks without replicating to Sink2 _UNLESS_ Source does not only compute level 2 bitmasks but also level 3, i.e. computes that Transit2 and Transit1 receive _different_ level3 bitmasks. The according computation is e.g. a Dijkstra that tie-breaks ECMPs (ONlogN is very dirty complexity measure for Dijkstra but sufficient for purpose of this discussion).
=C2=A0
I don=E2=80=99t consider running Dijk= stra=E2=80=99s for the bitmasks (observe that set of receivers will modify the necessary computation) and modifying the whole hierarchy per node the packet is repli= cated to something that is justifiable in complexity for what it achieves, especi= ally given the size of the headers we=E2=80=99re talking. I would consider the B= IER-TE suggestion significantly better here.
=C2=A0
thanks
=C2=A0
--- tony
=C2=A0
=E2=80=9CYour work is to disc= over your work and then with all your heart to give yourself to it.=E2=80=9D --- Buddha
=C2=A0_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier=


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier




--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a = million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of = Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
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[IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B0751B3647 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by igbhv6 with SMTP id hv6so53675783igb.0 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 05:21:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=iKEuaGQd5s3bGGh7+PWm5nYMja59P9snRWbwPV35ROE=; b=TkR6sRNPrmGt/3SJUwPkG9VaSS++eUfGD/y9c7ghiEuYWHK2E4HuVwidIGbS4g7s/H sQge1Y24KYEtaJdWInWg14LkPiPq70bIrIVpZ6ckB4IaW+MAxgnM9WwEkE0/7xqQ0+qk 9ICDHGPXmTdS4F7YT2XXtJHw+j0LHYcU1oEbavIAQ8yE2xzMvjAnJFdiopo0B5uee6aj 61GSagZI12KRhY6Rpbx8WWGEG+WcI2DyFuQflEAVhbx6AmU5q1xpPeR3I3uzpjD4jFUG O7r4yZs2AWV7Sq7G9v7so8xaZy4xUD5MwQxJhFjcPpFtaGLrX/NDAOsQ17hB1zI6REOP EDlw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.124.98 with SMTP id mh2mr10566991igb.25.1446470501774; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 05:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:21:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE883@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4167B@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 05:21:41 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3ba1c16fbb4405238ea8f8 Archived-At: Cc: Xuxiaohu , "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-xu-bier-encapsulation-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 13:21:44 -0000 --e89a8f3ba1c16fbb4405238ea8f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable true, forgot that it may be needed in p2mp & mp2mp cases for correct disposition of the frame inside. I stand corrected. tony On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 1:38 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Hi Guys, > > > As well, why does the encaps carry BFR-id ? is that > source/destination/originator ? None of those seem necessary to me ? > > > > > > [Xiaohu] BFR-id indicates the ingress BFR. It may be neccessary in some > use cases such as performance measurement. > > > > > > > > ok, if it's not used for the forwarding decision not much I can say > about it. We have however OAM drafts which provide for precisely this kin= d > of stuff so I suggest reading those. Putting OAM fields into forwarding > header is maybe not the best decision here .. > > In MPLS encapsulation, the BFR-id is used as the Context to do the > upstream label lookup. So it is part of the disposition decision, which i= s > related to forwarding on the egress. Is VPN context supported in this > encapsulation? > > Thx, > > Ice. --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --e89a8f3ba1c16fbb4405238ea8f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
true, forgot that it may be needed in p2mp & mp2mp cas= es for correct disposition of the frame inside. I stand corrected. tony=C2= =A0

On Mon, = Nov 2, 2015 at 1:38 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:=
Hi Guys,

> As well, why does the encaps carry BFR-id ? is that source/destination= /originator ? None of those seem necessary to me ?
>
>
> [Xiaohu] BFR-id indicates the ingress BFR. It may be neccessary in som= e use cases such as performance measurement.
>
>
>
> ok, if it's not used for the forwarding decision not much I can sa= y about it. We have however OAM drafts which provide for precisely this kin= d of stuff so I suggest reading those. Putting OAM fields into forwarding h= eader is maybe not the best decision here=C2=A0 ..

In MPLS encapsulation, the BFR-id is used as the Context to do the u= pstream label lookup. So it is part of the disposition decision, which is r= elated to forwarding on the egress. Is VPN context supported in this encaps= ulation?

Thx,

Ice.



--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a = million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of = Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
--e89a8f3ba1c16fbb4405238ea8f8-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 18:38:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160231B2B7B; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:37:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FxKOcjWe3F8; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F8C1ACE3F; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id DB7BACA2C8C71; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:37:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id tA32b1At069255; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:37:09 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EAFE879@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> To: Tony Przygienda MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: C3973C80:1D43A21E-48257EF2:000C170A; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.3 September 15, 2011 Message-ID: From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:35:04 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.3FP6|November 21, 2013) at 2015-11-03 10:36:53, Serialize complete at 2015-11-03 10:36:53 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=_related 000E219448257EF2_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn tA32b1At069255 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Antoni Przygienda , BIER Subject: Re: [Bier] comments on 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ZEJACDhFQHTpFE4JEwJCoHwR+P81jgazn1av3gAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --=_related 000E219448257EF2_=-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 21:04:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9611B2E2A; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:04:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J-IC76oPDncK; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gVMcJLo3yk8i for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 265511B386E for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:39:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1972; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446680390; x=1447889990; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=fBF3jmWLDIRw8i9ze7Rrjko68yBtp/ptCBP1+rGRqoo=; b=QwWhV3DJxYhVnA1iF650NjXxrBlPAah0FwRSXkFbtOLPIDH7F4/7HHGf 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by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA4NdmR3032145; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:39:48 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:39:48 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <20151104233948.GA30363@cisco.com> References: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> <5632543F.5090204@juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5632543F.5090204@juniper.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Caitlin Bestler Subject: Re: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 23:39:51 -0000 Inline. On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 01:15:43PM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > [Caitlin] Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than > a BFER. The application would map a destination IP address to a bit > position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). > > This is really just a control plane issue. True. Is there any control plane proposal where a BFER could be a host (eg: not running IGP) ? Or a BFR an L2 switch (running STP vs. IGP) ? > [Caitlin] allowing the actual BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery is > more direct. There is no need for BFERs to inform BFIRs that multicast > delivery will be used. It makes no difference to the other BFRs. You can > even make a case that this is already allowed under the "no harm no > foul" rule. > > This seems a bit more problematic to me, as the LAN might attach to > multiple transit BFRs. Consider a topology like: > > |----BFR-B---Endpoint-1 > BFR-A---| | > |----Endpoint-2 [...] Sure, but this is not a problem specific to "end-to-end BIER". It would apply to existing BIER as well if we wanted to use L2 multicasting to directly send to more than one BFR. Assuming we had an L2 BIER control plane, use of L2 multicasting would become quite uninteresting because all L2-switches topologies wouldn't need it anymore. Only passive multiaccess L2 subnet. Which today really only means wireless (i think...). In a DC which i think is the topology Caitlin is interested in, it looks to me the ask is really BIER for L2 switches, but L2-hop-to-l2-hop BIER (L2) unicast would be perfect (no L2 multicast needed). > Another problematic scenario: [...] > The various proposals for MLD/IGMP/PIM overlays address problems like > this, but the solutions are not at the BIER layer, so I don't think they > apply directly to the case of end-to-end BIER. Which specific proposal for example do you think would help ? Cheers Toerless From nobody Wed Nov 4 15:58:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA221A03C7 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:58:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04SxRDe0RdGc for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21C1C1A87C0 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:58:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3018; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446681520; x=1447891120; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=20btaG23qdoZALpicWD8kY1u91TyUCGjCOLyb9Ve2hY=; b=bw6YNH36hqJf5+5Kbp76DGuuS8Wlql58qV7gfGkOLG4XZy7Wf2gEXyAY Ov3B5oBR2k6tWtGj1fs7eiKW66aOvS9Zw3J1MdYHXUQ4U3npt77aQfISA zNeSuk9aumGUxFzQ1kJqaIln+pBYsu+CupucAM8pA7QxsGUEZKG5GUBFk w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AaAgBfmzpW/4wNJK1egztTb71zAQ2BXhcKhXECgT44FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ2AQEEAQEBNzQLEAsYCSUPBRM2CgmILg3CEwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEi1KERINggRQFjhGIN4YGhxUIgVqaZx8BAUKCER2Bdx00g2uBSQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,245,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205011147" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Nov 2015 23:58:39 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA4NwcWq031822 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:58:39 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA4Nwb4R000756; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:58:37 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA4NwbWY000755; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:58:37 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 15:58:37 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <20151104235837.GB30363@cisco.com> References: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 23:58:42 -0000 FWIW: I think it would be lovely if we had a BIER-API definition in some appropriate BIER RFC. Would make it so much easier to talk with app-developers about BIER and see how it compares to the APIs/service for ASM/SSM. IMHO, the most basic API is really just something like this: write(bier_domain, list-of-bfer-ip-addr, data, len) Aka: no exposure/need to bother about bitmasks and other BIER forwarding or control plane details. And no IP multicast group addresses to worry about. This API could be used today on BFIR/BFER. And it wouldn't need to change for an end-to-end BIER where as Eric said we may just have some other variants of control plane under the hood. Toerless On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 01:26:11PM -0700, Caitlin Bestler wrote: > There is a broad use-case for BIER that has not been properly > highlighted: explicit application use of bitmaps > to push multicast messages. > > Applications specify the subset of a cluster (BIER sub-domain) that is > to receive a message on a per packet basis. > Sender-determine, or pushed, targeting is natural for many cluster > applications, especially storage clusters. > Requiring the sender to tell the receivers that they need to join a > specific group adds latency to any transaction. > When the determination is truly listener based, or the delivery lasts > long enough, this overhead is insignificant. > But for transactional messages, such as transferring chunks within a > storage cluster, the extra latency is a killer. > > No real changes are required to support this model. At most a few MAY > clauses would be added. > > Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than a BFER. > The application would map a destination > IP address to a bit position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). But such an > implementation would already be allowed > by simply considering the IP stack on each end station to be its own BFER. > > It would also be desirable to use Layer 2 multicasting for the final > delivery hop. The current pseudo-code implies > unicast delivery. Allowing mutlicast L2 delivery only requires adding > one clause to the forwarding pseudo-code. > We must allow treating an existing L2 multicast address as though it > were an anonymous virtual BFER that delivered > to a known set of endpoints. An implementation could create a virtual > BFER under the current wording, but I believe > it would have to allocate a bit position for each virtual group, and > then explicitly advertise it. Just allowing the actual > BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery is more direct. There is no need > for BFERs to inform BFIRs that multicast delivery > will be used. It makes no difference to the other BFRs. You can even > make a case that this is already allowed under the > "no harm no foul" rule. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Nov 4 16:28:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42BB1AD0A8 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:28:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PSTwBXcn4p1f for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5A751B2AEC for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacdm15 with SMTP id dm15so43822945pac.3 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:28:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nexenta_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=u63cz0Z0QVROlK3zv/jnfes/5Ea8vDd01lhx9c9XGrM=; b=Ph/g5jJaMi3uYix86QPJ2tA0k2zoxY7hVSrS6M01jcse2O23LhmGQ20pb59QtbgYNI lGErCWRiIME/HDyVv5i/JZ+fsjLF9jS6byF0epTLAlTjGc2XJ0Hvl2c1JXtGMVP8CVHI 3PxbfcmkxoX/6Uq+HMD3KvIucC+0qZwwpK8P/NYtEBJDJ9wER3URe4e7bDyCDD7Tity6 E2tNbgBOqUZm+kErLmZIq92/vhlm8coE22NmJZUAhBWLAqnP5MNIHdSkFHNAggEexgSE ippfJ0/0K5RXkYh8NfCdcNccqvEbSYtczNLuwyxbJ8+uXfFalZB/2Lo/JU3WSMs89Ahp 9IaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=u63cz0Z0QVROlK3zv/jnfes/5Ea8vDd01lhx9c9XGrM=; b=JnwG4DTATo9YHZOWIZjo5sv2gX35PlafJixZ8QRaeHioMDCmCiW+kUnTVddhxlgk2b HSdD5lShfZurZwWh067ZUttO03r19V2yGj5DOoHcW574L42qMUhU46MQ2uFYCDCgHVHO 0XMEm8BjDZblEkm234InA/9fLmQDosfpTG44Yj+g3qLpy6EXuuB+L4QR1tlhSuCW5PQq AqkpQwcpdT47Hp1XYCTs2TM0tH3YTkmF2ydoAFSNozZE6a1BKXPSvCJk0nSTtr0c4VXm AD71h7XoCartS19mgfAYTG+YINab3saWyYqTMFPGYDQLv9V6GysxGdGnmK5Y72RJkEYH Rtng== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQksxvORT2ycpBzQD3DqHVijGvf5O7kp8cK77HqpW5RtcuFHXieUcZqIqV3Nb5tRsrfUZqa2 X-Received: by 10.68.69.101 with SMTP id d5mr5647572pbu.90.1446683282273; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id fk8sm4201499pab.33.2015.11.04.16.28.01 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:28:01 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert References: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> <20151104235837.GB30363@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <563AA290.7080507@nexenta.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:28:00 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151104235837.GB30363@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 00:28:09 -0000 On 11/4/15 3:58 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > FWIW: > > I think it would be lovely if we had a BIER-API definition in some > appropriate BIER RFC. Would make it so much easier to talk with > app-developers about BIER and see how it compares to the APIs/service > for ASM/SSM. > > IMHO, the most basic API is really just something like this: > > write(bier_domain, list-of-bfer-ip-addr, data, len) The API should allow this, but it should also allow create a BIERpath like this: bp = make_bier_path (bier_domain,list-of-bfer-ip-addr) send_to_bp (bp,data,len) As well as the usual 'send_to_bpv' for vectorized content. Eventually you would release the 'bierpath'. The bierpath would be totally opaque. It might be an integer handle or an allocated struct. This would be optimal for sending a message that had to be broken up into multiple datagrams in that it avoids the overhead of translating the IP addresses to bit-numbers for each UDP datagram. > > Aka: no exposure/need to bother about bitmasks and other BIER > forwarding or control plane details. And no IP multicast group > addresses to worry about. > > This API could be used today on BFIR/BFER. And it wouldn't need to > change for an end-to-end BIER where as Eric said we may just have > some other variants of control plane under the hood. > > Toerless > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 01:26:11PM -0700, Caitlin Bestler wrote: >> There is a broad use-case for BIER that has not been properly >> highlighted: explicit application use of bitmaps >> to push multicast messages. >> >> Applications specify the subset of a cluster (BIER sub-domain) that is >> to receive a message on a per packet basis. >> Sender-determine, or pushed, targeting is natural for many cluster >> applications, especially storage clusters. >> Requiring the sender to tell the receivers that they need to join a >> specific group adds latency to any transaction. >> When the determination is truly listener based, or the delivery lasts >> long enough, this overhead is insignificant. >> But for transactional messages, such as transferring chunks within a >> storage cluster, the extra latency is a killer. >> >> No real changes are required to support this model. At most a few MAY >> clauses would be added. >> >> Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than a BFER. >> The application would map a destination >> IP address to a bit position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). But such an >> implementation would already be allowed >> by simply considering the IP stack on each end station to be its own BFER. >> >> It would also be desirable to use Layer 2 multicasting for the final >> delivery hop. The current pseudo-code implies >> unicast delivery. Allowing mutlicast L2 delivery only requires adding >> one clause to the forwarding pseudo-code. >> We must allow treating an existing L2 multicast address as though it >> were an anonymous virtual BFER that delivered >> to a known set of endpoints. An implementation could create a virtual >> BFER under the current wording, but I believe >> it would have to allocate a bit position for each virtual group, and >> then explicitly advertise it. Just allowing the actual >> BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery is more direct. There is no need >> for BFERs to inform BFIRs that multicast delivery >> will be used. It makes no difference to the other BFRs. You can even >> make a case that this is already allowed under the >> "no harm no foul" rule. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Nov 4 16:47:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D601B3508 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:47:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g-UdaY9Sy_Xs for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 616D01B34FF for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:47:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3599; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446684462; x=1447894062; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=uop02o0lJp3di1yFUfADyH4kgJnDi8ucAPoEN3K8gms=; b=RnvGedI0syqfMFUMcQy6/oBnbRXu9DCzOnzyneBf6mI5POf9Gk6NSQon 18hRJRte8LEj6iCFCj5iIox/G8CuMigwW49yYavwPV2GbGbXyJ1TYrKId j4Lrxd2nNkdgwRaRNCxzeF5FYsDb9z/tQA8sh6qAKtbQkoUy+cuYc0rN/ s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AaAgD2pTpW/4ENJK1egztTb710AQ2BXhcKhXECgT44FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEBAwEBAQE3NAsFCwsYCQwZDwUTNgoJiCYIDcIIAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASLUoREVoMKgRQFjhGIN4YGhxUIgVqaZx8BAUKCER2Bdx00g2uBSQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,245,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205025182" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 00:47:41 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA50lfAF025714 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:47:41 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA50leLn003652; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:47:40 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA50le94003651; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:47:40 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 16:47:40 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <20151105004740.GC30363@cisco.com> References: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> <20151104235837.GB30363@cisco.com> <563AA290.7080507@nexenta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <563AA290.7080507@nexenta.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 00:47:44 -0000 On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 04:28:00PM -0800, Caitlin Bestler wrote: > bp = make_bier_path (bier_domain,list-of-bfer-ip-addr) > send_to_bp (bp,data,len) > This would be optimal for sending a message that had to be broken up > into multiple datagrams in that it avoids the overhead of translating the > IP addresses to bit-numbers for each UDP datagram. Sure. I wasn't taking into account any API mods necessary to optimize local computational requirements or the like. Just the basic BIER paradigm. I would also not introduce any new/unclear tem like path. It's just a set of bfer (bfer-set or the like). And thats how i'd compare it with ASM/SSM: receiver-sets vs. group-addreses is what the app-developer is dealing with. Cheers Toerless > >Aka: no exposure/need to bother about bitmasks and other BIER > >forwarding or control plane details. And no IP multicast group > >addresses to worry about. > > > >This API could be used today on BFIR/BFER. And it wouldn't need to > >change for an end-to-end BIER where as Eric said we may just have > >some other variants of control plane under the hood. > > > >Toerless > > > >On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 01:26:11PM -0700, Caitlin Bestler wrote: > >>There is a broad use-case for BIER that has not been properly > >>highlighted: explicit application use of bitmaps > >>to push multicast messages. > >> > >>Applications specify the subset of a cluster (BIER sub-domain) that is > >>to receive a message on a per packet basis. > >>Sender-determine, or pushed, targeting is natural for many cluster > >>applications, especially storage clusters. > >>Requiring the sender to tell the receivers that they need to join a > >>specific group adds latency to any transaction. > >>When the determination is truly listener based, or the delivery lasts > >>long enough, this overhead is insignificant. > >>But for transactional messages, such as transferring chunks within a > >>storage cluster, the extra latency is a killer. > >> > >>No real changes are required to support this model. At most a few MAY > >>clauses would be added. > >> > >>Each bit position would represent and end-station rather than a BFER. > >>The application would map a destination > >>IP address to a bit position (or bit-positions for BIER-TE). But such an > >>implementation would already be allowed > >>by simply considering the IP stack on each end station to be its own BFER. > >> > >>It would also be desirable to use Layer 2 multicasting for the final > >>delivery hop. The current pseudo-code implies > >>unicast delivery. Allowing mutlicast L2 delivery only requires adding > >>one clause to the forwarding pseudo-code. > >>We must allow treating an existing L2 multicast address as though it > >>were an anonymous virtual BFER that delivered > >>to a known set of endpoints. An implementation could create a virtual > >>BFER under the current wording, but I believe > >>it would have to allocate a bit position for each virtual group, and > >>then explicitly advertise it. Just allowing the actual > >>BFER to use multicast Layer 2 delivery is more direct. There is no need > >>for BFERs to inform BFIRs that multicast delivery > >>will be used. It makes no difference to the other BFRs. You can even > >>make a case that this is already allowed under the > >>"no harm no foul" rule. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>BIER mailing list > >>BIER@ietf.org > >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 4 17:07:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10121B3534 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:06:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BrTnZ9lMQZ0y for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:06:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x22f.google.com (mail-ig0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DFE41A21B6 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:06:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by igbdj2 with SMTP id dj2so518819igb.1 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:06:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=2lKMzY7V2PWNeBSp8UmeKos21IMvJzKsJ1WhL1DwODo=; b=tLhzzOq09QbAlZAy/aom80eoOwd+G3j2qMpc9cixZ8YSW8llCtx5LX48UwVpxUVYK6 tyQNmg2CEzdVj462QJy3aPDSS2x6vpsgZGp0gTg5XcVbmOVtgNpLDRMyuyrvx0sBmOO9 s9tRK6flJiLtw15OgbxsHeNal4mWLbDbKtvX/jgmIaKuTM9NBX3Ug90e5bEoWO3449tv ckcqUUvFegpOqHA5lOjS0q0zSAogsqPMlpyVpzPNV3Q/ORvvaqrDoag7U+x0I2zFf4Yk lk10ZspoZScyubS8MsLfpqXi8NrtMz42MZ4bCvkPK8UXnqYLVQ+vDf/1MU/RyiWsuKrH Qfaw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.124.98 with SMTP id mh2mr90121igb.25.1446685617891; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:06:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20151104235837.GB30363@cisco.com> References: <56312F63.4050601@nexenta.com> <20151104235837.GB30363@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:06:57 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3ba1c15b39810523c0beaf Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Caitlin Bestler Subject: Re: [Bier] End-to-end BIER X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:06:59 -0000 --e89a8f3ba1c15b39810523c0beaf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > FWIW: > > I think it would be lovely if we had a BIER-API definition in some > appropriate BIER RFC. Would make it so much easier to talk with > app-developers about BIER and see how it compares to the APIs/service > for ASM/SSM. > + (1E99 * 10) --e89a8f3ba1c15b39810523c0beaf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Toerless Eckert <<= a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">eckert@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:
FWIW:

I think it would be lovely if we had a BIER-API definition in some
appropriate BIER RFC. Would make it so much easier to talk with
app-developers about BIER and see how it compares to the APIs/service
for ASM/SSM.

+ (1E99 * 10)
--e89a8f3ba1c15b39810523c0beaf-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 17:26:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4961B35BB for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:26:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8IyKpnUDNIpU for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x232.google.com (mail-io0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FB611B3598 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by ioc74 with SMTP id 74so8801338ioc.2 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:26:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=5SR3I3wjg9K+3TURA6RgfPwEhfUB60zf6KfONGYapXI=; b=kAIGVOC7JFhijm7b29g988pip1LjA3YpG4ZA78kVvAThS/yTrIeP092qBWPQZ5r8mA +iRtP6hQ6y4HtG2wlawke1gdD0V1Wz1dmGb5yN8swrD5NNnNV7mqhix6uWcc1kCVNal6 JMSTQvufsqb2stREZALHZ4UgDaQmkYlVIwVlVZxtXXfjRAH0bVt2sYieqIlEVeAuueby yByxEWkgElI5dSMlxBSmYLP4pHwEjezU/aY5ecyZkOPplHawwNLV6cxO9Zwp9cMFLwEs jf7YPZcw6qLdZI64YFznH8VHEmkWSqVdTkjjH4WsgLKLfrEhOhnOww95niwKIo1vB42D hreA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.16.219 with SMTP id 88mr6878914ioq.50.1446686796688; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:26:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:26:36 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ed7589e34e00523c10496 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell Subject: [Bier] Security framework ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:26:39 -0000 --001a113ed7589e34e00523c10496 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alia pointed out to me that we'll need a security framework for BIER. I'll be picking up some conversations with Stephen Farrell but the job is pretty much open right now. I have not pre-conception what we end up with (framework/requirements/spec docs or just a single doc) but security experts are needed to look the technology over so apply inside. Moderate amounts of beer can be footed by me if mini-bar mini-bofs are necessary ;-) --- tony --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --001a113ed7589e34e00523c10496 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<wg-chair-hat>=C2=A0

Alia pointed= out to me that we'll need a security framework for BIER. I'll be p= icking up some conversations with Stephen Farrell but the job is pretty muc= h open right now. I have not pre-conception what we end up with (framework/= requirements/spec docs or just a single doc) but security experts are neede= d to look the technology over so apply inside. Moderate amounts of beer can= be footed by me if mini-bar mini-bofs are necessary ;-)=C2=A0
--- tony=C2=A0

</>

--
We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou= ld produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, = we know that is not true.=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky<= br>
--001a113ed7589e34e00523c10496-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 18:31:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A516E1B2F70 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:31:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gIieqoAzmKyJ for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0576D1B36B9 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:31:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4515; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446690711; x=1447900311; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=BF13DM0cMP5XA7GMbLXTvoxfNmKvtD/Ren34WbI0cWM=; b=ViTlIKGw4nQCLaoF86w7w77gW/+QX40aM2PdXsh8Po1Kz2/Xb9/Ja9PX mjS7Q/yKSjY32d6E1JcwIbX4WFbZo+SSodRnx59sr9MHY8XzISVMlSDHM Hj2MjTUuRKUyfsxjbBdqupHGsLZmzkthwbgF3+F8CuPNuYI/KAFQhfvTk M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,245,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="47562049" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 02:31:50 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA52VohL030270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:31:50 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA52VnD3009511; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:31:49 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA52Vn5m009510; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:31:49 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:31:49 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <20151105023149.GD30363@cisco.com> References: <55DF5BAD.9060003@juniper.net> <20151007221035.GA26709@cisco.com> <561BFD2C.8090708@juniper.net> <20151013000257.GA13911@cisco.com> <56214683.5090900@juniper.net> <20151016194126.GA21691@cisco.com> <56325CC6.5080602@juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56325CC6.5080602@juniper.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" , Neale Ranns Subject: Re: [Bier] Questions on draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:31:52 -0000 Inline On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 01:52:06PM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > On 10/16/2015 3:41 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >We could easily avoid the single "shared leaf bit" by having a forwarding > >plane feature "you're a leaf BFER, every BIER-TE packet you receive > >needs to be punted". But thats a new forwarding plane feature, the > >"shared leaf bit" is just a bit allocation trick, so it keeps the > >forwarding > >plane simpler/cleaner. > > I don't really follow this. Presumably, if a BFR is a leaf BFER in a > particular sub-domain, it must know that it is a leaf BFER in that > sub-domain. Otherwise it wouldn't punt the packet when it sees the > "shared leaf bit". Right. > If the BFR knows that it is a leaf BFER in a particular sub-domain, then > when it gets a packet whose top label is the MPLS label it has assigned > to that sub-domain, it can just punt the packet. Recognizing that a > particular MPLS label means "this packet is for me" doesn't seem like a > new forwarding plane feature. Sure. Then i use an encap other than MPLS and i have to figure out how to achieve the desired behavior there. All not rocket science, but all dependencies against additional definitions in those docs ?? All the ways described in the arch doc how you can use the BIFT adjacency entries to achieve beneficial outcomes are just that: "can". If there are other ways to achieve the same thing preferred in some secenarios, that's great. I just thought as an architect its a nice scheme and requires nothing new in the forwading plane (local_decap is already needed anyhow). One other thought: if there was a case in which we would have to waste more than one bit in a bitstring for leaf-BFER, then i'd be a lot more interested to instead rely on encap like MPLS or the like to save me the bit. But one bit looked ok. > On the issue of adding new BFERs, suppose you have an existing flow, one > of whose BFERs is BFR-1. Now you need to add another BFER to that flow, > say BFR-2. Unfortunately, BFR-2 can only be reached using BFR-1 as a > transit BFR. So to add BFR-2 as a leaf, you have to turn BFR-1 into a > non-leaf, which means assigning it a BFR-id, assigning a bit position to > the link connecting BFR-1 and BFR-2, and modifying the flow's BitString > appropriately. I know that the magic central controller is going to > figure all this out ;-), but can it disseminate the new bit position > assignments without disrupting the flow that is already in progress? > After all, you don't want to see a glitch in the TV show you're watching > every someone else decides to tune in ;-) Nah, BIER-TE is like watching sports in a bar ;-) Three phase commit. The numbers are phases. The operations within each phase can be parallel: 1. Set up new bit to punt (local_decap) for BFR-1 in its BIFT. Add bit for link to BFR-2 on BIFT in BFR-1. Add shared-bit to punt to BIFT in BFR-2. 2. Update bitstrings on all BFIR that intended to reach BFR-1 via shared bit to now use the new bit for BFR-1. If the bitstrings have the shared bit set to also reach othre BFER then keep shared bit, else reset. 3. Remove punt adjacency for shared bit on BFR-1 BIFT. Now BFR-2 is operable, aka: the bit toward it can be used in bitstrings. Can you do it with the shared punt semantic being in the label ? Probably yes, but i hope (for the value of the shared bit idea) that the way i describe is simpler because the controller only has to do this three phase commit with BIFT entries and BIFR bitstrings in mind, but nothing else. > One more issue. The discussion of SI in the -02 revision of the draft > still doesn't seem right to me. In BIER-TE, the BitString in a packet > has to represent the tree over which the packet will flow. The only way > I can think of using SI is to divide the tree into n sub=trees, where > the links and BFERs for each sub-tree all have BFR-ids that fall into > the same set. Then the BFIR could make n copies of the packet, unicast > each one to the root of the corresponding sub-tree, and allow BIER-TE to > proceed from there. Is that what you are actually thinking? Thats not only what i am thinking, but even more so what i thought i had written in the -02 draft. Wanted to use the afternoon to morp the new -02 text example into an animated graph for tomorrow, hope that will help to clear it up even more. Cheers toerless From nobody Wed Nov 4 20:56:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0DF1B3931 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:56:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZD2TscDJXXqD for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D7171B392F for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkcn129 with SMTP id n129so28920945qkc.1 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 20:55:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=XGq0lJqPLX+RB7beldI7BXS3y8vHg7CrZ5TStrV72Xs=; b=pQAnyAETnolB3YHspbEA7cZRkQXgdEW8GWlsrw3hg+wVeu9QzR8E56Q5FKyGqsafYE U1AAm2wOo81g8z7awZjFmQ7QUNLkhtGXV3tne20QTkkx+UA6FqMRMqLJdHozaOCfQhj/ RGaGP/3CmZij0/2j4QLJv3fE0oyIglGVjGS+IBUsH8zLfJzSrd5EJStAq18CJ94Y1Jns y10YqzHiu/hnf6f/4Sk6Isv7lQxLo5JjSdOhauON9vFpLEE5gbtnXzMZzJpSJsL1t5/r zwjVuMTlQfhZoi0ZFjU/ElHNvP/gtbc/HIkno/EXTCQ+oRVmfPsaZ1sM/EjDA4rG//O5 0M8g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.16.165 with SMTP id 37mr5505069qkq.31.1446699359628; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 20:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.55.105.68 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:55:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:55:59 -0800 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113acec26d72690523c3f196 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BIER WG Slides ASAP! X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 04:56:01 -0000 --001a113acec26d72690523c3f196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I'm still missing slides for the following presentations: draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min The slides need to be email to me today. I will NOT take a memory stick in the room. If your slides are not email in advance of the meeting your presentation slot will be canceled. Thanks, Greg --001a113acec26d72690523c3f196 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm still missing slides for the following presentatio= ns:

draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min
draft-zhang-bier-designed-rou= ting-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min

The slides need to be email to me today. I will NOT take = a memory stick in the room. If your slides are not email in advance of the = meeting your presentation slot will be canceled.

T= hanks,
Greg
--001a113acec26d72690523c3f196-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 20:57:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC4A1B3931 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:57:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9nENanqhxxY3 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD0E51B3925 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:57:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=615; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446699438; x=1447909038; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=553jTihYvZed1MQaKKURy4dVNWvB6Q8XupUPA+RjN9U=; b=jx1wTmDFy2eiXhNF5tnokFFKDY2EnQqzjEAE6M6UQiXKgqLk0EpJBsUQ cvV0eVHPE54jC6QbuFdZ0Esz1ZlmhuJJfJrnQHIPZ24Ucb1KWlfzhCC3h W2Rd2p82D97bg57vnPqG1ORrftgPzWTHiU4X14mjyvH5KqDsaYflQPoEP U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D0AgBL4DpW/4UNJK1egztTb71/AQ2BXhcKhXECgUE4FAEBAQEBAQGBCkEPAYNlAQEEAQEBNzQLBQsLDgoJJQ8FEzYTiC4NwW8BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBItShCoRAYNogRQFjhGIN40bCIFalnWDch8BAUKEJR00gT+CFgQFF4EqAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,246,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205414540" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2015 04:57:18 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA54vHt3026391 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:57:18 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA54vH0h017436; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:57:17 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA54vHpU017435; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:57:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:57:17 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Shepherd Message-ID: <20151105045717.GA15291@cisco.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG Slides ASAP! X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 04:57:20 -0000 working... ;-) On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 08:55:59PM -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote: > I'm still missing slides for the following presentations: > > draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min > draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min > > The slides need to be email to me today. I will NOT take a memory stick in > the room. If your slides are not email in advance of the meeting your > presentation slot will be canceled. > > Thanks, > Greg > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Nov 4 21:13:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDCC1B3982 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:13:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 43H5ErDnNsHw for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qg0-x235.google.com (mail-qg0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F9101B3991 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by qgad10 with SMTP id d10so58164468qga.3 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:13:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Dwi4v6udw+Hz7Yry5dlMMNMfWXeSos8xTyXpmBqQUsQ=; b=Js3I7UTQl43iR/gfOrI+mUZq6W5ur5oJJvRsNwi5RHBmjy3+6NbvzmpPC/MeHhL5WD fpeXio2rtnZoIUVL8dDhmDpZwqTMv+FwJkZlc8zxgceO+AVkdtwJx7nLV+r5NVH1XvhC 9ZIl0m2uk/J4b85awRQ2MM7gHvGDU8wDDlyGJ7TKedVw9oV8tA03Av9s8T3s/n/qsRx3 7fJecSoz75RST5FFAtSVKiitYuMQVGBvb3d2wCs3SXq1RtobinUH5H5HOeQbDNC2XLT/ TM5ol8MZ6EgziLIyqctMeg23RleYYgcnd7jlTPhJZpgd8OmHfoOXVQvKBpwvnC9/3Diz ephw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.253.135 with SMTP id y129mr5950467qhc.20.1446700434432; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.55.105.68 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:13:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:13:54 -0800 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a34f87da8630523c431c9 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG Slides ASAP! X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 05:13:56 -0000 --001a113a34f87da8630523c431c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Correction, these are the two missing presentations. What do the two have in common? draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00 Ice Wijnands 10 min On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > I'm still missing slides for the following presentations: > > draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min > draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min > > The slides need to be email to me today. I will NOT take a memory stick in > the room. If your slides are not email in advance of the meeting your > presentation slot will be canceled. > > Thanks, > Greg > --001a113a34f87da8630523c431c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correction, these are the two missing presentations. What = do the two have in common?

draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min
draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan= -election-00 Ice Wijnan= ds 10 min
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Greg Shepherd = <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">I'm still missing slides for the following presentation= s:

draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min
draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min

The slide= s need to be email to me today. I will NOT take a memory stick in the room.= If your slides are not email in advance of the meeting your presentation s= lot will be canceled.

Thanks,
Greg
=

--001a113a34f87da8630523c431c9-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 21:15:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C639A1A910F for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:15:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qZlZZb9jKGqh for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B91191A03A5 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:15:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=850; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446700533; x=1447910133; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=/Ieg3FWrqr0r8aCLmw8IEv3g/h5Z8FT0hutpL0egSwk=; b=E6vtKGSdmbVX2rK2l5ZMS2wUaGeG7++UzUyLz7id0ykMEwDKnVpL2VkX bdMgQ1jCGnJpqWL/uj4ydqJo+wRIJDIkaux4m+tH6lFQAYac/XKM+3ld1 bJi/aBhewZdYb416p3Vmq5YxASWFouMOgKdoLtU99Xp8RzxXFMIILVWIG M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D7AQD/5DpW/4MNJK1egzuBQrtlghoBDYFehhICgUI4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ2AQEEOj8QCw4KCSUPBQ08E4gZAxK9Mw2EPAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARiLUoJTgVcRAYNogRQBBI4RiDeLL4FsCIFakxWDYINyHwEBQoQlHTSDVQQFF4EqAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,246,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205219607" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 05:15:33 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA55FWIU016631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:15:33 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA55FWon018315; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:15:32 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA55FWxw018311; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:15:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:15:32 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Shepherd Message-ID: <20151105051532.GB15291@cisco.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG Slides ASAP! X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 05:15:34 -0000 The authors where exploring other BIER opportunities in Yokohama ? On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 09:13:54PM -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Correction, these are the two missing presentations. What do the two have > in common? > > draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min > draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00 Ice Wijnands 10 min > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > > > I'm still missing slides for the following presentations: > > > > draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min > > draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min > > > > The slides need to be email to me today. I will NOT take a memory stick in > > the room. If your slides are not email in advance of the meeting your > > presentation slot will be canceled. > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > From nobody Wed Nov 4 21:18:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0A91B396B for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:18:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B0uAndUujITE for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDE841A92ED for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by pabfh17 with SMTP id fh17so75822558pab.0 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:18:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=os2dATwLRqgeeaeGyM/3TRhbyDlbpFdYA7fslkR146w=; b=Hqc/0iw3dl807wdlgQkn6j7Kau58ULuzGRcVRfyZ43gzX49h5QLVFI4A7UZ2XZpds2 qI02u1P+Ky/hjt4S7Gw6QiYiP01GnYVFI51fEhA1cTsU8WHHhX4O24fEr74o4MAMlow4 C2qhHDWc1bm+hyoUkriRIIzKa6lo0LQiHnz9sPOR01vnO/HrBPkC6DK9nbF6t3ggIbOj Pg4MyQ2KC1fJLNU4YVZv2uq3PBBWByypHf9RI29g3Qne7A+/cpATbIKNo7KZQEXkiLu+ yh+Mx58DRtVCapWtWWt5acATycu3y6TReX+rHqbE+tx8k8rVKUgkOZd5F/wrFgD1VwbR mA/A== X-Received: by 10.66.236.201 with SMTP id uw9mr7017413pac.76.1446700726554; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from t20010c4000003080b0c10c16305e815f.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp (t20010c4000003080b0c10c16305e815f.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp. [2001:c40:0:3080:b0c1:c16:305e:815f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id wh10sm5290439pab.2.2015.11.04.21.18.45 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:18:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:18:42 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <377F3E9B-6171-4551-A920-670C4C01D316@gmail.com> References: To: Greg Shepherd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG Slides ASAP! X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 05:18:48 -0000 > Correction, these are the two missing presentations. What do the two = have in common? >=20 > draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert = 10 min > draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00 Ice Wijnands = 10 min They are close friends of Shep. ;-) Dino From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:36:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AECB1A6FF1 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:36:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbstrOVQNDJ9 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BAC31A6FFE for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by wmec201 with SMTP id c201so4863725wme.1 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:36:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=RUb6rhHJRzSJAb/9urhzZSdPXQY8guS0yl5MlhEs64s=; b=i9F5+8ta4egd6bPQyCJf9JI+/isUvxsIuQeAgiVQv0zOdPoa7W1DNibWCD85qzNUd2 apWqQR6EqxRGFfWdBzqANZmpCVfzOx8DSRtY6fTTAomYRZh67t5SCaBMhjSTHeL1xzbU kdqtm6tSvKBjVd00RgL2zEnYGF9hhARpeiBkfUooN94h1jb0DW46GU2clTMlG3k0aNM8 C0SGXH9U6EgfvL+TtdGI0V3rtCO/iak2DN0Wc9cIAuf4dP5kafljWjoodODJ2hgquG/7 JQYQYJAERqxnhNgtooayvvIyVn3sJygaxJCHhMGSjiFpF95n82Vpk9B1RbHbGkQN9Q1E NddQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.28.12.78 with SMTP id 75mr6472986wmm.85.1446770165104; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:36:05 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.194.204.195 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.204.195 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:36:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:36:05 +0900 X-Google-Sender-Auth: O3oC7_rgNqQCUWCN0M2enorwdO4 Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114449f2c3489d0523d46dfc Archived-At: Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:36:07 -0000 --001a114449f2c3489d0523d46dfc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Ice, As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks: 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subnet 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out. Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. Cheers, R. --001a114449f2c3489d0523d46dfc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

Ice,

As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks:

1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subnet

2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out.

Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those.

Cheers,
R.

--001a114449f2c3489d0523d46dfc-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:38:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6FD71A854B for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:38:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9smKbdbwBY0x for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B0C61A8033 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDS61376; Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:38:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:38:47 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:38:42 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCso5CpqZCub5kGQ9O/SyLLvZ56OJi8c Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:38:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.187.92] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D64A1nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.563BF698.002D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 34114e899a9c8bd7b702dc91be78701b Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:38:53 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D64A1nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-activ= e and active-standby access scenarios. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszu= k.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] DR election ... Ice, As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed= deployments in production networks: 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subn= et 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can= have single default out. Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there w= ill pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. Cheers, R. --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D64A1nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree with Robert's comments. I thin= k BIER also should cover active-active and active-standby access scenarios.=

Thanks,

weiguo

From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on beha= lf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36
To: IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] DR election ...

Ice,

As we duscussed offline there are practically two major type= s of multihomed deployments in production networks:

1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over= different subnet

2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is us= ed so hosts can have single default out.

Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and re= ceivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slid= es skip those.

Cheers,
R.

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D64A1nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 17:02:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0702D1A8861 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:02:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id me5lZkqnAM2y for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 594081A8958 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:02:12 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-53-563b9aae771c Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 22.13.32596.EAA9B365; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:06:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:02:10 -0500 From: Gregory Mirsky To: "eckert@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements Thread-Index: AdEYLmdmiX4TcT/XRByVh94FoR+/iw== Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:02:10 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830Eeusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn+66WdZhBjsXSFksnbGHyWLv8nts DkweU35vZPVYsuQnUwBTFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfGhH1vmQtWylZc6tvM2sD4VrKLkYNDQsBE YuPC0C5GTiBTTOLCvfVsILaQwBFGicdr+boYuYDsZYwS204uZQFJsAkYSbzY2MMOYosIaEq0 PJjBDGIzC2hJTF+7GaxGWMBY4seWt2wQNRYS+xb3sULYehIvN1xiAdnLIqAiceufDEiYV8BX YuGESWCtjEA3fD+1hglipLjErSfzmSBuE5BYsuc8M4QtKvHy8T9WCFtJ4uPv+ewgI5kF8iXu bnGFGCkocXLmE5YJjMKzkEyahVA1C0kVRImOxILdn9ggbG2JZQtfM8PYZw48ZkIWX8DIvoqR o7Q4tSw33chgEyMwOo5JsOnuYNzz0vIQowAHoxIP74c86zAh1sSy4srcQ4wSHMxKIrw1x4BC vCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTEefcvuR8qJJCeWJKanZpakFoEk2Xi4JRqYJSaPL3opV1k av27oF+24vr8reFbjOXPGXv4rne4/2Ptt8UJnOk9LVcY3m7t4Z5QELkhPb4gJ+ko/2OePxFl xhHvohl7mVUO3L70+321GteVJ5Zrz5yPvbIt71B4sUW//F5no/m36ku/2nqLPlDWf9XbV1k5 ndl9zTLGFw22JXYdP6N9Z6//pMRSnJFoqMVcVJwIAKzqFpiKAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: [Bier] PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 01:02:19 -0000 --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830Eeusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Toerless, I'd like to bring requirement #9 in the BIER WG document OAM Requirements f= or BIER: BIER OAM MUST support Path Maximum Transmission Unit discovery. Hope that addresses your question why are we doing PMTUD. Regards, Greg --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830Eeusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Toerless,

I’d like to bring requirement #9 in the BIER W= G document OAM Requirements for BIER:

BIER OAM MUST support Pat= h Maximum Transmission Unit discovery.

Hope that addresses your question why are we doing P= MTUD.

 

        &nbs= p;       Regards,

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;          Greg=

 

 

 

--_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830Eeusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 20:28:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D701B34E3 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:28:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rn_K8DxpgVH9 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5042B1B34E2 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:28:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1543; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446784136; x=1447993736; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=6XO4b0dc9keVJnJiAHGCKcdoUQh7C3N1JRe4/wzyOLk=; b=ePhSk6/JBjMq49Q3eQdyt0SZvIlom+A9qoVyqfSIk2wTmco6jrZxPlrR 9L9z8G5/xXnphUlb29ibXDBrj0M57FVN+QPApevIfh/82j3NSdWs+aLR6 t/j/r1JdvTy0temma5JyBy2cxaqcdU1MHOfkHc2pBjRS5djqfvkEq9Ayj k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AOAgCEKzxW/4sNJK1egztTvGKCGgENgWAhhW8CgUA4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ2AQEEOj8QIwklDwVJiEENwQgBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIVZjh2BFQWOEYg3AYUch34IgVqWdoNyHwEBQoQlHYVIAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,250,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205466133" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2015 04:28:55 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA64StVo012026 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Nov 2015 04:28:55 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA64SsLI028252; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:28:54 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA64SssL028251; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:28:54 -0800 Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 20:28:54 -0800 From: "eckert@cisco.com" To: Gregory Mirsky Message-ID: <20151106042854.GB26431@cisco.com> References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 04:28:58 -0000 Thanks, Greg. I was looking just for PMTU or MTU in the text and could not find it. I do not agree to this requirement in the OAM requirement draft as of now. Why is it needed for BIER ? AFAIK, there is no PMTUD for OAM in any of the prior IP multicast transport options - native IP or MPLS. True ? Any reason why BIER would need this more than those prior options ? Any reason why BIER would make it a lot easier than the prior options ? This should IMHO be discussed in the draft. If we get PMTUD, would it only be for OAM and only for the BIER path, eg: not the end-to-end path ? If so, it should be called different (BP-MTUD or the like). If someone proposes that it should be end-to-end, then this needs to go back to MBoned, because it would ask to introduce PMTUD into eg: PIM path segments. Wrt. the protocols proposed in your PMTUD draft proposal: I would like to understand why we would not want to proactively signal MTU intead of probing it. There seems to have been some work in the past around this in unicast, not sure how successful. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 01:02:10AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > Hi Toerless, > I'd like to bring requirement #9 in the BIER WG document OAM Requirements for BIER: > BIER OAM MUST support Path Maximum Transmission Unit discovery. > Hope that addresses your question why are we doing PMTUD. > > Regards, > Greg From nobody Fri Nov 6 02:48:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01791B393C for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 02:48:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bw_xcrFAuXjv for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 02:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6E201B3938 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 02:48:09 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-b4-563c23fe5e75 Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 90.FB.32596.EF32C365; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 04:52:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 05:48:08 -0500 From: Gregory Mirsky To: "eckert@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements Thread-Index: AdEYLmdmiX4TcT/XRByVh94FoR+/iwARyZoAAAKcWZA= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:48:08 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221928746@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151106042854.GB26431@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151106042854.GB26431@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiO4/ZZswg1vHlSyWztjDZLF3+T02 ByaPKb83snosWfKTKYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSvjwZOTjAWnBCvuPehmbWC8wdvFyMkhIWAi 8b7xOzuELSZx4d56NhBbSOAIo8ScQ2ZdjFxA9jJGiYtz14El2ASMJF5s7AFrEBHQlGh5MIMZ xGYW0JKYvnYzC4gtLBAn8WXZDlaImniJNzf+M0HYVhJbnpwC62URUJFY1H0VrIZXwFfiRuNT dojFRRIrvuwG28UpoC8x4eA+MJsR6Ljvp9YwQewSl7j1ZD4TxNECEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+xwph K0nMeX0N6jYdiQW7P7FB2NoSyxa+ZobYKyhxcuYTlgmMYrOQjJ2FpGUWkpZZSFoWMLKsYuQo LU4ty003MtjECIySYxJsujsY97y0PMQowMGoxMP7Ic86TIg1say4MvcQowQHs5IIrxyzTZgQ b0piZVVqUX58UWlOavEhRmkOFiVx3v1L7ocKCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbBZJk4OKUaGK1+JX46/odR tHlrRGFDTorYWb23XdfWWN7MX7FpiZz8qvjNLgZ5rsv+zHy+brO4Aztjkq7EgQ7zD0kKFmXe p5aFRb68MSvZ6qEiz6uze+++mXJP48XGtNC80+t/znNKWvjsz5Gia72LHsYw+M9u+JdofKD4 Uthu73vnRNJ0PWRbfWvLA/WN+ZVYijMSDbWYi4oTAShwwO2OAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 10:48:11 -0000 Hi Toerless, perhaps I wasn't clear at the mike today. PMTUD is clearly not for OAM but = it is OAM service to determine OAM on particular path (the same as PMTUD in= p2p, right?). I believe that the fact that PMTUD over multicast in MPLS or= IPv4/IPv6 doesn't scale is another indication of advantage BIER technology= presents us with. I'll be glad to continue our discussion on the list. Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: eckert@cisco.com [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 1:29 PM To: Gregory Mirsky Cc: BIER (bier@ietf.org) Subject: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM= Requirements Thanks, Greg. I was looking just for PMTU or MTU in the text and could not find it. I do not agree to this requirement in the OAM requirement draft as of now. Why is it needed for BIER ? AFAIK, there is no PMTUD for OAM in any of the = prior IP multicast transport options - native IP or MPLS. True ? Any reason why BIER would need this more than those prior options ? Any reason why BIER would make it a lot easier than the prior options ? This should IMHO be discussed in the draft. If we get PMTUD, would it only be for OAM and only for the BIER path, eg: not the end-to-end path ? If so, it should be called different (BP-MTUD or = the like).=20 If someone proposes that it should be end-to-end, then this needs to go bac= k to MBoned, because it would ask to introduce PMTUD into eg: PIM path segm= ents. Wrt. the protocols proposed in your PMTUD draft proposal: I would like to u= nderstand why we would not want to proactively signal MTU intead of probing= it. There seems to have been some work in the past around this in unicast,= not sure how successful. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 01:02:10AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > Hi Toerless, > I'd like to bring requirement #9 in the BIER WG document OAM Requirements= for BIER: > BIER OAM MUST support Path Maximum Transmission Unit discovery. > Hope that addresses your question why are we doing PMTUD. >=20 > Regards, > Greg From nobody Sat Nov 7 09:16:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288021B3568 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:16:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iukmN6jhUH7H for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68D061B3572 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:16:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5164; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446916580; x=1448126180; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=m8b1dPU5XkN7Y15e1yF/iS6gQ9Jd/b5l9La9WjcKwKM=; b=BgFHNU+o7puKx//MsIVj07+ucfvSFnc1TcWIyE0icz3BScZu+5jkFIc3 tVfD3b8UxBoxJL7Q/hZ0/MKZ05WozBpR4jSt7QzoJjRNUPi5hhPtfSh7S bSTig/wDuyX3woaFTcAVqZXgCK7JEzBCQdXTXIvS3nryqlaxF5Ghd8OiT A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D/AQAEMT5W/4ENJK1dgztTb7wRghoBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFhIYVvAoEhOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBAQQ6PwwECxEEAQEBCR4HDwUyCQ4TiC4?= =?us-ascii?q?NwSYBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIVZhXmERINggRUFjhGINwGFHYgBC?= =?us-ascii?q?IFblniDch8BAUKCRIFhHTSDS4FJAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,257,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205525462" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 07 Nov 2015 17:16:19 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA7HGIJZ008710 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:16:19 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA7HGIAT007831; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:16:18 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA7HGIiK007830; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:16:18 -0800 Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 09:16:18 -0800 From: "eckert@cisco.com" To: Gregory Mirsky Message-ID: <20151107171618.GA7123@cisco.com> References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151106042854.GB26431@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221928746@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221928746@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 17:16:23 -0000 Thanks, Greg To repeat and refine my points made at the mike @yokohama: If we intend to support PMTUD for BIER, it should be accordingly described, but not as an OAM operation. If it's meant as an offline OAM operation, thats a different discussion. There is no agreed upon PMTUD mechanism for IPv4/IPv6 multicast today, the extended socket API explicitly recommend to stick to min-MTU for IPv4 multicast (1280) to avoid PMTUD issues with IP multicast. As long as you do probing to do PMTUD, it does not matter what transport (native, MPLS, BIER, FOOBAR) you use, you will always have to deal with the problem of potentially getting a humunguous amount of PMTUD replies (eg: ICMP) back, and this does not scale, and network operators are worried about the signaling overhead created by badly written multicast apps. Remember that most PMTUD in unicast is done by few TCP stacks in OS, but not in apps (little UDP apps trying to use PMTUD AFAIK). Just having some segment of an end-to-end IP(v4v6) multicast path be BIER does not change that probing problem for the end-to-end path. If we ignore IP multicast and just think about end-to-end BIER, the picture changes somewhat. We do know explicitly know the set of receivers, and its < 64k. But: One key benefit of BIER is the ability to change the set of receivers WITHOUT SIGALING. If we where to do probing based PMTUD in BIER, we would loose this benefit of BIER. Aka: Technically i'd be interested to evaluate if we could do proactive PMTUD for end-to-end BIER. Aka: via signaling of link-MTU in the IGP that BIER uses - and calculating the path MTU to each BFER from it. Or just calculating network-wide min-MTU from link-MTU in the IGP. But: Use-case wise i really don't know how important this is. Ultimately, this is not a different problem to MPLS: You do not want to do fragmentation, so you want to send with a sufficiently small MTU, so well controlled networks (MPLS, BIER) will get configured with the right MTU. And applications written for IP in mind will not use MTU > 1280 anyhow. The best case i can think of for BIER is that we get a strong use-case that shows well improved throughput for jumbo-packets, and we see sufficient benefits for auto-configuration of that jumbo-packet MTU for end-to-end BIER. The use case Caitlin Bessler told me about might fit this profile. To make it reliable in a DC it would probably want to discover MTU, and to be highest throughput it might want to use jumbo packets (8192 at least). Aka: As long as i don't see different use-case descriptions, i'd primarily be only interested in MTU > 1280 for end-to-end BIER in this DC network storage use-case environment. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 10:48:08AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > Hi Toerless, > perhaps I wasn't clear at the mike today. PMTUD is clearly not for OAM but it is OAM service to determine OAM on particular path (the same as PMTUD in p2p, right?). I believe that the fact that PMTUD over multicast in MPLS or IPv4/IPv6 doesn't scale is another indication of advantage BIER technology presents us with. > I'll be glad to continue our discussion on the list. > > Regards, > Greg > > -----Original Message----- > From: eckert@cisco.com [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 1:29 PM > To: Gregory Mirsky > Cc: BIER (bier@ietf.org) > Subject: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements > > Thanks, Greg. > > I was looking just for PMTU or MTU in the text and could not find it. > > I do not agree to this requirement in the OAM requirement draft as of now. > > Why is it needed for BIER ? AFAIK, there is no PMTUD for OAM in any of the prior IP multicast transport options - native IP or MPLS. True ? > Any reason why BIER would need this more than those prior options ? > Any reason why BIER would make it a lot easier than the prior options ? > > This should IMHO be discussed in the draft. > > If we get PMTUD, would it only be for OAM and only for the BIER path, eg: > not the end-to-end path ? If so, it should be called different (BP-MTUD or the like). > > If someone proposes that it should be end-to-end, then this needs to go back to MBoned, because it would ask to introduce PMTUD into eg: PIM path segments. > > Wrt. the protocols proposed in your PMTUD draft proposal: I would like to understand why we would not want to proactively signal MTU intead of probing it. There seems to have been some work in the past around this in unicast, not sure how successful. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 01:02:10AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Toerless, > > I'd like to bring requirement #9 in the BIER WG document OAM Requirements for BIER: > > BIER OAM MUST support Path Maximum Transmission Unit discovery. > > Hope that addresses your question why are we doing PMTUD. > > > > Regards, > > Greg -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Sat Nov 7 17:59:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD051A871A for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:59:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xRX1bPuIOLdF for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59FE41A870B for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 17:59:03 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-1b-563e4ae51ec7 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F5.B0.32596.5EA4E365; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 20:03:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 20:59:00 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "eckert@cisco.com" , Gregory Mirsky Thread-Topic: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements Thread-Index: AQHRGIClWek44YPoV0ypoShM8X92756RItcAgAA9IWA= Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 01:59:00 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB10AFB@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151106042854.GB26431@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221928746@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151107171618.GA7123@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151107171618.GA7123@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt+4zL7swgwtLBS2WztjDZLF3+T02 ByaPKb83snosWfKTKYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStj47TvrAVbRSq6/n9haWDsE+hi5OSQEDCR eH7xKCOELSZx4d56ti5GLg4hgSOMErcXnoZyljFK7H7axgJSxSZgIXH521NmEFtEIFLiaE83 E4jNLKAlMX3tZrAaYYFUiYNXz0DVpEk8PbyDBcK2kmjaeIkdxGYRUJF4d2Q/G4jNK+ArMaWh lRli2S1GiRXf7rKCJDgF9CQOv/8BtoAR6Lzvp9ZALROXuPVkPhPE2QISS/acZ4awRSVePv7H CmErSXz8PZ8dol5HYsHuT2wQtrbEsoWvmSEWC0qcnPmEZQKj2CwkY2chaZmFpGUWkpYFjCyr GDlKi1PLctONDDYxAiPlmASb7g7GPS8tDzEKcDAq8fB+ELQLE2JNLCuuzD3EKMHBrCTC66gF FOJNSaysSi3Kjy8qzUktPsQozcGiJM67f8n9UCGB9MSS1OzU1ILUIpgsEwenVAPjlknBX3Kb 1CbwrVqv5XxlwYNbfdn2nwzXR7J9t2v/YjDjjGDMEcXPjr4FLb1ZE1YmPVPWmnz73S6WdOeP b2v9679ukZ14TOv0xbeP34vWn1X7/0pBrjgoX0fiU7JZe+fD4D7ds67vRKWUWDe0WN6wNeiq y8tLtZizqk/t2IZfvF9uTjqd/H2FEktxRqKhFnNRcSIAVFnuN5ACAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 01:59:05 -0000 >=20 > Just having some segment of an end-to-end IP(v4v6) multicast path be BIER= does > not change that probing problem for the end-to-end path. >=20 > If we ignore IP multicast and just think about end-to-end BIER, the pictu= re > changes somewhat. We do know explicitly know the set of receivers, and it= s < > 64k. But: One key benefit of BIER is the ability to change the set of rec= eivers > WITHOUT SIGALING. If we where to do probing based PMTUD in BIER, we > would loose this benefit of BIER. [Tony saiz:] yes, because of smaller # receivers & this extension, we can= prune the amount of traffic significantly. Observe that a BFR does not hav= e to fwd necessarily the ACK'd responses of the BFERs behind him, it can be= all summarized in a mask.=20 >=20 > Aka: Technically i'd be interested to evaluate if we could do proactive P= MTUD > for end-to-end BIER. Aka: via signaling of link-MTU in the IGP that BIER = uses - > and calculating the path MTU to each BFER from it. > Or just calculating network-wide min-MTU from link-MTU in the IGP. [Tony saiz:] feasible but it relies on the riuoting underlay propagating = this information. Not sure that's a good assumption, especially since the = end-hosts are not necessarily expected to run the IGP (it's not clearly spe= lled out in the architecture today but I can easily imagine a BIER default= -GW for an end-host and then this information does not exist in the origina= tor of the PMTU.) >=20 > But: Use-case wise i really don't know how important this is. Ultimately,= this is > not a different problem to MPLS: You do not want to do fragmentation, so = you > want to send with a sufficiently small MTU, so well controlled networks (= MPLS, > BIER) will get configured with the right MTU. And applications written fo= r IP in > mind will not use MTU > 1280 anyhow. >=20 > The best case i can think of for BIER is that we get a strong use-case th= at shows > well improved throughput for jumbo-packets, and we see sufficient benefit= s for > auto-configuration of that jumbo-packet MTU for end-to-end BIER. >=20 > The use case Caitlin Bessler told me about might fit this profile. > To make it reliable in a DC it would probably want to discover MTU, and t= o be > highest throughput it might want to use jumbo packets (8192 at least). >=20 > Aka: As long as i don't see different use-case descriptions, i'd primaril= y be only > interested in MTU > 1280 for end-to-end BIER in this DC network storage u= se- > case environment. [Tony saiz:] hmm, interesting angle=20 From nobody Sat Nov 7 22:04:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48A61A1BBC for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 22:04:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lyIaUY1DpW6c for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 22:04:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E91F21A1BCD for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 22:04:06 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-3a-563e8453e9e2 Received: from EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.93]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 53.42.32596.3548E365; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 00:08:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC007.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.93]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 01:04:05 -0500 From: Gregory Mirsky To: "eckert@cisco.com" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements Thread-Index: AdEYLmdmiX4TcT/XRByVh94FoR+/iwARyZoAAAKcWZAASntZAAAP8o9w Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 06:04:04 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221929BBC@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151106042854.GB26431@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221928746@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151107171618.GA7123@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151107171618.GA7123@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPrG5wi12YwdMLqhZLZ+xhsti7/B6b A5PHlN8bWT2WLPnJFMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXR9moFY8E5w4rLf2awNzAuV+9i5OSQEDCR eLThNCOELSZx4d56ti5GLg4hgSOMEo8v9DJCOMsYJTZtvwdWxSZgJPFiYw87iC0ioCnR8mAG M4jNLKAlMX3tZhYQW1ggTuLLsh2sEDXxEm9u/GeCsN0kehp/g81hEVCR2DfnHJjNK+ArceXA M3aIZbcYJVZ8uwvWzCmgJ3H4/Q+wZkag876fWsMEsUxc4taT+UwQZwtILNlznhnCFpV4+fgf K4StJDHn9TWo43QkFuz+xAZha0ssW/iaGWKxoMTJmU9YJjCKzUIydhaSlllIWmYhaVnAyLKK kaO0OLUsN93IYBMjMFKOSbDp7mDc89LyEKMAB6MSD+8HQbswIdbEsuLK3EOMEhzMSiK8SneB QrwpiZVVqUX58UWlOanFhxilOViUxHn3L7kfKiSQnliSmp2aWpBaBJNl4uCUamC026E/v8sx 3PDgk+1N4f3eSWX3r4gx/ArbtPBg4ZE5pS2Tq430k+xq7hmXtMim3N3cfLzhG0dVq574I7d7 EusfavSmKTsKySR/yK55Mu+DxMzjf+smBN3vW7r7UZLsxldufz95as55X/fVKyH1xyU+m7N7 jL/csvmX911rTm0kx52Ttfw/f/xSYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAnnnaq5ACAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 06:04:11 -0000 Hi Toerless, thank you for your detailed response. Couple questions to clarify and notes= in-line and tagged GIM>>. Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: eckert@cisco.com [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 2:16 AM To: Gregory Mirsky Cc: BIER (bier@ietf.org) Subject: Re: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER= OAM Requirements Thanks, Greg To repeat and refine my points made at the mike @yokohama: If we intend to support PMTUD for BIER, it should be accordingly described,= but not as an OAM operation. If it's meant as an offline OAM operation, th= ats a different discussion. GIM>> I don't know what you mean by "offline OAM". The PMTUD proposed as on= -demand OAM operation that can be triggered by an operator or central contr= oller. I don't see the need or benefit of running PMTUD as proactive OAM. There is no agreed upon PMTUD mechanism for IPv4/IPv6 multicast today, the = extended socket API explicitly recommend to stick to min-MTU for IPv4 multi= cast (1280) to avoid PMTUD issues with IP multicast. As long as you do probing to do PMTUD, it does not matter what transport (n= ative, MPLS, BIER, FOOBAR) you use, you will always have to deal with the p= roblem of potentially getting a humunguous amount of PMTUD replies (eg: ICM= P) back, and this does not scale, and network operators are worried about t= he signaling overhead created by badly written multicast apps. Remember tha= t most PMTUD in unicast is done by few TCP stacks in OS, but not in apps (l= ittle UDP apps trying to use PMTUD AFAIK). Just having some segment of an end-to-end IP(v4v6) multicast path be BIER d= oes not change that probing problem for the end-to-end path. If we ignore IP multicast and just think about end-to-end BIER, the picture= changes somewhat. We do know explicitly know the set of receivers, and its= < 64k. But: One key benefit of BIER is the ability to change the set of re= ceivers WITHOUT SIGALING. If we where to do probing based PMTUD in BIER, we= would loose this benefit of BIER. GIM>> As discussed at the meeting, one may list any subset of BFIRs in the = given domain. I don't see what gets lost with such flexibility. Aka: Technically i'd be interested to evaluate if we could do proactive PMT= UD for end-to-end BIER. Aka: via signaling of link-MTU in the IGP that BIER= uses - and calculating the path MTU to each BFER from it. GIM>> AFAIK, "proactive OAM" usually identifies an operation that is contin= uous. Do you suggest to run the PMTUD continuously with some intervals? Hav= en't thought about benefit of this mode though the PMTUD method would not p= reclude one from using it in this manner. Or just calculating network-wide min-MTU from link-MTU in the IGP. But: Use-case wise i really don't know how important this is. Ultimately, t= his is not a different problem to MPLS: You do not want to do fragmentation= , so you want to send with a sufficiently small MTU, so well controlled net= works (MPLS, BIER) will get configured with the right MTU. And applications= written for IP in mind will not use MTU > 1280 anyhow. The best case i can think of for BIER is that we get a strong use-case that= shows well improved throughput for jumbo-packets, and we see sufficient be= nefits for auto-configuration of that jumbo-packet MTU for end-to-end BIER. The use case Caitlin Bessler told me about might fit this profile. To make it reliable in a DC it would probably want to discover MTU, and to = be highest throughput it might want to use jumbo packets (8192 at least). Aka: As long as i don't see different use-case descriptions, i'd primarily = be only interested in MTU > 1280 for end-to-end BIER in this DC network sto= rage use-case environment. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 10:48:08AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > Hi Toerless, > perhaps I wasn't clear at the mike today. PMTUD is clearly not for OAM bu= t it is OAM service to determine OAM on particular path (the same as PMTUD = in p2p, right?). I believe that the fact that PMTUD over multicast in MPLS = or IPv4/IPv6 doesn't scale is another indication of advantage BIER technolo= gy presents us with. > I'll be glad to continue our discussion on the list. >=20 > Regards, > Greg >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: eckert@cisco.com [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 1:29 PM > To: Gregory Mirsky > Cc: BIER (bier@ietf.org) > Subject: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in=20 > BIER OAM Requirements >=20 > Thanks, Greg. >=20 > I was looking just for PMTU or MTU in the text and could not find it. >=20 > I do not agree to this requirement in the OAM requirement draft as of now= . >=20 > Why is it needed for BIER ? AFAIK, there is no PMTUD for OAM in any of th= e prior IP multicast transport options - native IP or MPLS. True ? > Any reason why BIER would need this more than those prior options ? > Any reason why BIER would make it a lot easier than the prior options ? >=20 > This should IMHO be discussed in the draft. >=20 > If we get PMTUD, would it only be for OAM and only for the BIER path, eg: > not the end-to-end path ? If so, it should be called different (BP-MTUD o= r the like).=20 >=20 > If someone proposes that it should be end-to-end, then this needs to go b= ack to MBoned, because it would ask to introduce PMTUD into eg: PIM path se= gments. >=20 > Wrt. the protocols proposed in your PMTUD draft proposal: I would like to= understand why we would not want to proactively signal MTU intead of probi= ng it. There seems to have been some work in the past around this in unicas= t, not sure how successful. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 01:02:10AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Toerless, > > I'd like to bring requirement #9 in the BIER WG document OAM Requiremen= ts for BIER: > > BIER OAM MUST support Path Maximum Transmission Unit discovery. > > Hope that addresses your question why are we doing PMTUD. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Greg -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Mon Nov 9 07:09:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1851B7E22 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 07:08:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RlRIHfOq-BQ7 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 07:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0139.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C33B41B7E21 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 07:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 15:08:52 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 15:08:52 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Haoweiguo , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCsjGEeVQM2i90iRBt68ehqtc56OJqIAgAWn3qA= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 15:08:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.10] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB1715; 5:1q3hV2MHkOxnpAnubdPdzQ9dXu4GsSgS3T8ebOehZ6ntnr2Lvoijn0EOECKGel53wm471QUISlfrmwHg2UjfH516ADoROhroayAXEB80lwjqRHVRHEDy7IEjl0THEk0w4gLAlJAnONhtGmI8hQA8sQ==; 24:J5NM1IEG40PkpQq0g8xokS+NLATO0toumHdbla1e1wa3C/IEueuhRvYUpNrQsDgVPe4dSFk6Z0xNbcRlu0uUcK4arA00qRFm7W5LApZmipk=; 20:krbv3piot3YRTz+doZBZ1IXI7m3A+ys1gbVrwBN2XCeJScJsYKcY4UoBkwfXEBRVP40XatqKf+TYmPOxwiS6nA== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1715; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(95692535739014)(108003899814671); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(520078)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1715; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1715; x-forefront-prvs: 0755F54DD9 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(189002)(164054003)(199003)(377454003)(81156007)(16236675004)(11100500001)(40100003)(106116001)(10400500002)(15975445007)(2950100001)(2900100001)(92566002)(77096005)(5003600100002)(5001770100001)(102836002)(33656002)(74316001)(189998001)(97736004)(5002640100001)(5007970100001)(5001920100001)(5001960100002)(87936001)(105586002)(19580395003)(122556002)(99286002)(5008740100001)(19580405001)(76576001)(5004730100002)(101416001)(19625215002)(106356001)(50986999)(76176999)(86362001)(19300405004)(66066001)(54356999); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1715; H:BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BLUPR0501MB171503D7B01C633446BC527DD4150BLUPR0501MB1715_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Nov 2015 15:08:51.7448 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB1715 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 15:08:59 -0000 --_000_BLUPR0501MB171503D7B01C633446BC527DD4150BLUPR0501MB1715_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby scena= rios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, a= nd routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the= multi-homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replac= e PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has so= me BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is stil= l applicable if BIER had never happened. Jeffrey From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM To: Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-activ= e and active-standby access scenarios. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszu= k.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] DR election ... Ice, As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed= deployments in production networks: 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subn= et 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can= have single default out. Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there w= ill pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. Cheers, R. --_000_BLUPR0501MB171503D7B01C633446BC527DD4150BLUPR0501MB1715_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Not exactly sure about the details of= active-active or active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER, = but here is my understanding:

 

- BIER architecture has three layers:= multicast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really the= multicast overlay’s job to handle the multi-homing – be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things.

- While Ice’s DR election draft= was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay sig= naling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still appli= cable if BIER had never happened.

 

Jeffrey

&nbs= p;

From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; IJsbrand Wijnands <i= ce@cisco.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...

 

I= agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-active= and active-standby access scenarios.<= /p>

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

From:<= /span> BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36
To: IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] DR election ...

Ice,

As we duscussed offline there are practicall= y two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks:

1. True multihoming ... each edge router con= nect to CEs over different subnet

2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess la= n but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out.<= /p>

Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicas= t senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried tha= t most BIER slides skip those.

Cheers,
R.

--_000_BLUPR0501MB171503D7B01C633446BC527DD4150BLUPR0501MB1715_-- From nobody Mon Nov 9 09:16:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15E01B7FE1 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:16:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O5H4hImZ_KGl for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x22d.google.com (mail-io0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 810461B7FDD for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by iody8 with SMTP id y8so192411963iod.1 for ; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 09:16:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=BfY5TTVbzztq+wChB2fPERGZecnZ+4OYZOEK06hq9no=; b=RYzu5cHYrG+3Ef9rXLxnwGGTwzSiDiCEwQ+FrzobHMHRDj0M45IIWXd/V/aM9SouU2 KOLF0ZyibNfQ0BsMEl/duF81CAagOcakg4WVfjUS/0j5xP0cWCuzEGTs5Bp/R0bQ0uwf EoH/el0ORN+imQe5RvZRuezwInMR9aVZz1mMCxixIy/A0CeOkkPcXEPQfXAcW2VpENWP Ud7MZiIClvyyN/827kM0qvMLNCRoLy9M8R3r3p0XU+dL6vAPrjCHcvnuY66GLc087H9N bOFAtHzoYglk61kiZUkz4rOdhq3GIu40h7H8f4sKnUr1mSyTcw1w4j1I1XQwo702fhDc 23Bg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.16.219 with SMTP id 88mr28385855ioq.50.1447089364867; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 09:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:16:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 09:16:04 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ed7588d23ce05241ebffa Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 17:16:07 -0000 --001a113ed7588d23ce05241ebffa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, > and routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay=E2=80=99s job to= handle > the multi-homing =E2=80=93 be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other thin= gs. > +1 > - While Ice=E2=80=99s DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD= to > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draf= t > has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft > is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > +1 --001a113ed7588d23ce05241ebffa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@junip= er.net> wrote:

Not exactly sure about the details of= active-active or active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER, = but here is my understanding:

=C2=A0

- BIER architecture has three layers:= multicast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really the= multicast overlay=E2=80=99s job to handle the multi-homing =E2=80=93 be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things.


+1
=C2=A0

- While Ice=E2=80=99s DR election dra= ft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay s= ignaling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still appli= cable if BIER had never happened.

<= br>
+1=C2=A0
--001a113ed7588d23ce05241ebffa-- From nobody Mon Nov 9 14:02:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947211B859A for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:02:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KNXapOZ83mjM for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C4F31B8595 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:02:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5802; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447106559; x=1448316159; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=RiHFShK7QTg2laBfeCQKNah3TtfrBL+Ja6Tp1JCsFts=; b=GruGwMzaVTr60EsGmz35DHWQgy9ELjpESP5SHr0XvuPqjV2ebuwoiU4+ +M4y8LSHb0cqc93btMa4ZAdQr0TpCfXZj/vySEHpk6jk0lcIpdlSjh6/s iehvTxQOeRD0Td++cC3g4VyggtJLPIZPoAmHTxIeznGeIeZPlRdqsNnXa w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D1AQBvF0FW/4sNJK1egztTb7wlghoBDYFjIYVvAoFFOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBAQMBOj8FBwQLEQQBAQEJHgcPBTIJDhOIJggNwWMBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIVZhHOBBoREg2CBFQWOEYRWg2EBhR2IAQiBW5Z4g3IfAQFCgkSBYR00hB2BSQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,267,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="206657309" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Nov 2015 22:02:38 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA9M2cGH016409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:02:38 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA9M2bth012507; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:02:37 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA9M2bAL012506; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:02:37 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:02:37 -0800 From: "eckert@cisco.com" To: Gregory Mirsky Message-ID: <20151109220237.GB7123@cisco.com> References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151106042854.GB26431@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221928746@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151107171618.GA7123@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221929BBC@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221929BBC@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 22:02:41 -0000 Inline. On Sun, Nov 08, 2015 at 06:04:04AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > If we intend to support PMTUD for BIER, it should be accordingly described, but not as an OAM operation. If it's meant as an offline OAM operation, thats a different discussion. > GIM>> I don't know what you mean by "offline OAM". The PMTUD proposed as on-demand OAM operation that can be triggered by an operator or central controller. I don't see the need or benefit of running PMTUD as proactive OAM. Yes, that's what i meant with the somewhat bad term "offline". Thats well in scope for OAM. But i would really like some better use-case justification for this. How does it compare to eg: MPLS. > If we ignore IP multicast and just think about end-to-end BIER, the picture changes somewhat. We do know explicitly know the set of receivers, and its < 64k. But: One key benefit of BIER is the ability to change the set of receivers WITHOUT SIGALING. If we where to do probing based PMTUD in BIER, we would loose this benefit of BIER. > GIM>> As discussed at the meeting, one may list any subset of BFIRs in the given domain. I don't see what gets lost with such flexibility. I was referring to the case where we would do MTUD for the application itself as opposed to doing it purely as an OAM operation from somee operator console. Eg: if we ever consider MTUD automatic for apps, then it should be proactive as eg: via IGP so that a sender tht changes receiver bits does not have do do any signaling aat that time but immediately knows the MTU for that new receiver set. > GIM>> AFAIK, "proactive OAM" usually identifies an operation that is continuous. Do you suggest to run the PMTUD continuously with some intervals? Haven't thought about benefit of this mode though the PMTUD method would not preclude one from using it in this manner. I was thinking of just announcing per-link MTU into the IGP (or whatever routing protocol BIER routing underlay relies on). Of course, the per-hop MTU could be discovered through per-hop probing if there is reason not to simply believe interface configured MTU. Cheers Toerless > Or just calculating network-wide min-MTU from link-MTU in the IGP. > > But: Use-case wise i really don't know how important this is. Ultimately, this is not a different problem to MPLS: You do not want to do fragmentation, so you want to send with a sufficiently small MTU, so well controlled networks (MPLS, BIER) will get configured with the right MTU. And applications written for IP in mind will not use MTU > 1280 anyhow. > > The best case i can think of for BIER is that we get a strong use-case that shows well improved throughput for jumbo-packets, and we see sufficient benefits for auto-configuration of that jumbo-packet MTU for end-to-end BIER. > > The use case Caitlin Bessler told me about might fit this profile. > To make it reliable in a DC it would probably want to discover MTU, and to be highest throughput it might want to use jumbo packets (8192 at least). > > Aka: As long as i don't see different use-case descriptions, i'd primarily be only interested in MTU > 1280 for end-to-end BIER in this DC network storage use-case environment. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 10:48:08AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Toerless, > > perhaps I wasn't clear at the mike today. PMTUD is clearly not for OAM but it is OAM service to determine OAM on particular path (the same as PMTUD in p2p, right?). I believe that the fact that PMTUD over multicast in MPLS or IPv4/IPv6 doesn't scale is another indication of advantage BIER technology presents us with. > > I'll be glad to continue our discussion on the list. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: eckert@cisco.com [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 1:29 PM > > To: Gregory Mirsky > > Cc: BIER (bier@ietf.org) > > Subject: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in > > BIER OAM Requirements > > > > Thanks, Greg. > > > > I was looking just for PMTU or MTU in the text and could not find it. > > > > I do not agree to this requirement in the OAM requirement draft as of now. > > > > Why is it needed for BIER ? AFAIK, there is no PMTUD for OAM in any of the prior IP multicast transport options - native IP or MPLS. True ? > > Any reason why BIER would need this more than those prior options ? > > Any reason why BIER would make it a lot easier than the prior options ? > > > > This should IMHO be discussed in the draft. > > > > If we get PMTUD, would it only be for OAM and only for the BIER path, eg: > > not the end-to-end path ? If so, it should be called different (BP-MTUD or the like). > > > > If someone proposes that it should be end-to-end, then this needs to go back to MBoned, because it would ask to introduce PMTUD into eg: PIM path segments. > > > > Wrt. the protocols proposed in your PMTUD draft proposal: I would like to understand why we would not want to proactively signal MTU intead of probing it. There seems to have been some work in the past around this in unicast, not sure how successful. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Fri, Nov 06, 2015 at 01:02:10AM +0000, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > > > Hi Toerless, > > > I'd like to bring requirement #9 in the BIER WG document OAM Requirements for BIER: > > > BIER OAM MUST support Path Maximum Transmission Unit discovery. > > > Hope that addresses your question why are we doing PMTUD. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Greg > > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Mon Nov 9 14:23:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6315E1B8628 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:23:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jskHMycha7aK for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:23:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AC661B8627 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:23:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1591; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447107801; x=1448317401; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=u02XgDFDestCo2pZg3mkvLgIzxdn6bUxfJfK+2rgyyw=; b=fpH3YOXZuXZAVsFz9fSL1/3p3GRLjCk/NY7VNjkWT1QAZ+5oZLx0RjH7 8Gm4D/pkeOCkcQUfPav5ugPdFnzbEKaFdBdYCE09rmAFoU5TX4w9VvuuN 9g1Wy5xw3yTEdlkFIYGYuY9CdGWN1zei4Ftwv6TSgNgmzEs+b0SzA5tIJ k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D0AQDqG0FW/40NJK1egzu9Z4IaAQ2BY4YQAoFBOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENgEBBDo/EAsSBgklDwU1FIhBwXIBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYhVmFeYRCg2KBFQEEjhGINwGNHgicRR8BAUKCRIFhHYYaAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,267,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205319794" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Nov 2015 22:23:20 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA9MNJb5024921 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:23:20 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA9MNJuu013687; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:23:19 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tA9MNJPV013686; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:23:19 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:23:19 -0800 From: "eckert@cisco.com" To: Antoni Przygienda Message-ID: <20151109222319.GC7123@cisco.com> References: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122192830E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151106042854.GB26431@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF11221928746@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151107171618.GA7123@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB10AFB@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB10AFB@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Gregory Mirsky , "BIER \(bier@ietf.org\)" Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements-00: PMTUD requirement in BIER OAM Requirements X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 22:23:22 -0000 On Sun, Nov 08, 2015 at 01:59:00AM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > Aka: Technically i'd be interested to evaluate if we could do proactive PMTUD > > for end-to-end BIER. Aka: via signaling of link-MTU in the IGP that BIER uses - > > and calculating the path MTU to each BFER from it. > > Or just calculating network-wide min-MTU from link-MTU in the IGP. > > [Tony saiz:] feasible but it relies on the riuoting underlay propagating this information. Not sure that's a good assumption, especially since the end-hosts are not necessarily expected to run the IGP (it's not clearly spelled out in the architecture today but I can easily imagine a BIER default-GW for an end-host and then this information does not exist in the originator of the PMTU.) Right. At this point in time it seems to me as if BFRs must paerticipate in eg: an IGP, so can't be "stupid hosts". I would like "hosts" to partake in BIER, but i would like to avoid loosing information in the process. [rant] Just look at IoT where every host partakes in the routing protocol. Much simpler model than what we have done OSI and IETF for the last decades: come up with separate "ES-IS" signaling, and for every piece of info that a router has, we have to come up with an often equivalent but different way to let the hosts know about them. We already see IMHO in homenet how this will not nearly work as well as if the host would just partake in routing. And MIF PVD ... pass back routing information to some DHCP server to then end it back to the host... *yikes* [/rant] Cheers Toerless From nobody Mon Nov 9 16:15:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CD51ACE2A for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:15:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tDeu_BnCYAAZ for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09BBA1A8782 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:15:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1306; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447114529; x=1448324129; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=WWkqOUHZswLR58y9cJjgqXJvUpsZHzXXmriGJXjIMoM=; b=nD/vxQ81BSrtOZh/Z8i6gAUyHyjzRTmUQdk++F34w7vbhg9vHfseYEDV euHBKSBpNI1QEzSdBFgdAqFmkIzW+Bnh1W6jmLUd2/1FetQ+j131BySbD 9/L6Yheg08lnMeBVnA0/OMYauOi0766tYH3PykWHwcgexbbvEk71QKNmC c=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,267,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="43248324" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2015 00:15:13 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAA0FC6t006381 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:15:13 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAA0FCtV019466; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:15:12 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAA0FBfg019465; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:15:11 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:15:11 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Message-ID: <20151110001511.GD7123@cisco.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:15:30 -0000 Everybody seem to agree that this should technically be discussed in PIM-WG, but the fact that this thread happens on BIER proves Ice's point on the microphone in yokohama: BIER has the most active community caring about this. On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 09:16:04AM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > wrote: > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, > > and routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay???s job to handle > > the multi-homing ??? be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > > +1 > > > > - While Ice???s DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft > > has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft > > is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > +1 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Mon Nov 9 16:57:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108171B2BCB for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:57:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5VekpwRpm6lL for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F6F91B2BC6 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:57:11 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-23-5640df4d019c Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 91.AA.32596.D4FD0465; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 19:00:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 19:57:10 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert , Tony Przygienda Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAACOLAIAAdRqA//+3viA= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:57:09 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1177D@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <20151110001511.GD7123@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151110001511.GD7123@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrJIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuK7vfYcwg/8/JCyWztjDZLF3+T02 ixcrOCxezbnDbNG0sInZYveDjSwWRy42sjiwe0z5vZHVY+esu+weLUfesnosWfKTyeN601V2 j90bFzAFsEVx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZTS+f8BWcJevouH3f/YGxpvcXYycHBICJhLfv29ihbDF JC7cW8/WxcjFISRwhFHiw9I5UM4yRonpa86wgFSxCVhIXP72lBnEFhHwlfh57DBYN7PAfkaJ Sw1+ILawgLLEsZ/3oWpUJDZ/uckKYftJLFqwhw3EZhFQlTg7cyI7iM0LNKel6y4TxLJ7TBLz lx1jAklwCuhJfFu2lBHEZgQ67/upNUwQy8Qlbj2ZzwRxtoDEkj3nmSFsUYmXj/9BvaMkMWnp OajjdCQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZYrGgxMmZT1gmMIrNQjJ2FpKWWUhaZiFpWcDIsoqRo7Q4tSw3 3chgEyMwAo9JsOnuYNzz0vIQowAHoxIP74ctDmFCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHjtXwCFeFMSK6tS i/Lji0pzUosPMUpzsCiJ8+5fcj9USCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUIJsvEwSnVwMh7ScXaQvZG80mlPbXi PTxb9G+wb7XOqiiuy5UVejXvT8l3k3UWDqGO6faphztY/jJOiZAuq2VQiG/6uUd9MscS6V/X TqtH617bEfI6e+M+JX8/h5rw7qO1BrpiB1R8alad+CL8PnEr7//2z0GTW053u91byn9SLSvW K1uU6csndRMeLZ6ZSizFGYmGWsxFxYkAGt+kl7wCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:57:14 -0000 Yupp, whoever will push the work forward will get the work done ...=20 thanks=20 --- tony _____________________________________________ "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent = behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid beha= vior."=20 --- Dee Hock=20 >=20 > Everybody seem to agree that this should technically be discussed in PIM- > WG, but the fact that this thread happens on BIER proves Ice's point on t= he > microphone in yokohama: BIER has the most active community caring about > this. >=20 > On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 09:16:04AM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > > wrote: > > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or > > > active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is = my > understanding: > > > > > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > > forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really the multicast > > > overlay???s job to handle the multi-homing ??? be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, o= r > BGP, or any other things. > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > - While Ice???s DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD > > > to replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and > > > the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of > > > BIER. The draft is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > +1 >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 >=20 > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Nov 9 17:09:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 048B41B2CBB for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:09:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TG1oQB2-_1DH for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EF4F1B2CC3 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:09:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2438; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447117760; x=1448327360; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=hZkhL5DR/HgKV8+q3/wRpK9GUG6RfoACSTi6qgV37Pc=; b=G+Hv1bcKGg8Qsb7AH5Vbcj712+QZo8YFxkUpMCQ0ySxir6ZqnKNMR2y3 GqnVYe+7p9h/jlQ7i7MSnPeRhanMzUXuT/o3Zuv+7CVqwpKLmcDZmAWVv G3rXEzF7EQsNEFOfABDdSTQv5nKrfs9LM4Xww8bGbW+2Kyhm8o+OX0EDg Q=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,268,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="43499457" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2015 01:09:19 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAA19JNn020830 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 01:09:19 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAA19IY1022451; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:09:18 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAA19IVU022447; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:09:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 17:09:18 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Antoni Przygienda Message-ID: <20151110010918.GA21987@cisco.com> References: <20151110001511.GD7123@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1177D@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1177D@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 01:09:22 -0000 I am mostly worried that this will turn out to be more work than what the first draft makes it look like. If we want to get rid of PIM, we have to somehow understand how to route multicast between multiple LANs connected to the same router. If serious router have to start figuring out how to operte from the IGMP proxy routing RFC that's not good. On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 12:57:09AM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > Yupp, whoever will push the work forward will get the work done ... > > thanks > > --- tony > _____________________________________________ > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid behavior." > --- Dee Hock > > > > > Everybody seem to agree that this should technically be discussed in PIM- > > WG, but the fact that this thread happens on BIER proves Ice's point on the > > microphone in yokohama: BIER has the most active community caring about > > this. > > > > On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 09:16:04AM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or > > > > active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my > > understanding: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > > > forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really the multicast > > > > overlay???s job to handle the multi-homing ??? be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or > > BGP, or any other things. > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > - While Ice???s DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD > > > > to replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and > > > > the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of > > > > BIER. The draft is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > -- > > --- > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Tue Nov 10 02:04:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B101B35CB for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:04:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lsGN02luufna for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD4531B35CD for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by pabfh17 with SMTP id fh17so230451402pab.0 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:04:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=o/EOno3hAJxozXX7+k8LnpNxN5QQSf2f02JnxTaHYsE=; b=qH/tcfPmw8RZoAChW1R7TKXXIc6u3JApujEERZSlPKsXdrxLn8NmJLAVCBo+GuQ/X8 IONWN61E7kO2mtz5nu6teW+3iP2mi5DYJ4+ElFJmP2/pDRgvqykiaRUcUSrwJKD4g/zv DHyZ2mCzMEu7wwUQ/fj2/5g1fOQb7RxTm1iB47nJ44lUo60OwNlH0ihXgcN68xHmd0wW niMQXnzalboSIFMLXZ4qJWQouUu10H2f9C1S+VUiEp9RV9XdrIWX0V30SsxT6FtZP9Rg xrL8gieUoGk2fBlXTu2kqvujmW21rmm2zQyE//tC6s/14srxJdGHV1+up6UPQwUhUbIO 9V4w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.87.4 with SMTP id t4mr4263515pbz.61.1447149880283; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:04:40 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.66.15.72 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 02:04:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:04:40 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: con1GpdSu9UmW63i7kosLjIaTgs Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6743d88d1d0605242cd639 Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:04:44 -0000 --047d7b6743d88d1d0605242cd639 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeffrey, - While Ice=E2=80=99s DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD t= o > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draf= t > has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft > is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > =E2=80=8BSo let me understand why this came up just now ? How does current deployments deal with the problem ? If I recall the slides the topology Ice presented was =E2=80=8Bfollowing: R1 R2 | | ------------------- | H1 where R1 and R2 are two routers terminating BIER domain and H1 is a host. All connected over single VLAN/LAN via some L2 switch My point was that in the above case R1 and R2 would run VRRP and look as single gateway from H1 point of view. At least for unicast. The alternative would be theoretically to configure on H1 two default routes and let H1 perform L3 load balancing. However the problem here is that H1 would not be normally able to detect R1 or R2 liveness hence likely it send packets there till arp entry of dead router would timeout. Now the key question is how does IGMP work with VRRP for multicast today ? >From what I was able to find PIM and VRRP could work together. But the R1 and R2 interfaces towards H1 are not really enabled for PIM are they ? Many thx, r. --047d7b6743d88d1d0605242cd639 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jeffrey,

- While Ice=E2=80=99s DR election dra= ft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay s= ignaling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still appli= cable if BIER had never happened.

<= br>

=E2=80=8BSo let me understa= nd why this came up just now ? How does current deployments deal with the p= roblem ?=C2=A0

If I re= call the slides the topology Ice presented was =E2=80=8Bfollowing:


R= 1 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R2
=C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
=C2=A0-------------------
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 H1


<= /div>
where R1 and R2 are two routers terminating BIER do= main and H1 is a host. All connected over single VLAN/LAN via some L2 switc= h=C2=A0

My point was t= hat in the above case R1 and R2 would run VRRP and look as single gateway f= rom H1 point of view. At least for unicast.=C2=A0
<= br>
The alternative would be theoretically to confi= gure on H1 two default routes and let H1 perform L3 load balancing. However= the problem here is that H1 would not be normally able to detect R1 or R2 = liveness hence likely it send packets there till arp entry of dead router w= ould timeout.=C2=A0

No= w the key question is how does IGMP work with VRRP for multicast today ?=C2= =A0

From what I was ab= le to find PIM and VRRP could work together. But the R1 and R2 interfaces t= owards H1 are not really enabled for PIM are they ?

Many thx,
r.



--047d7b6743d88d1d0605242cd639-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 03:02:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1AB1A8A61 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:02:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IR-CNdVshB6h for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD31A1A8A3A for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 03:02:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2127; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447153362; x=1448362962; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=NmMLyHZkdK3frAB2J077k1+UvFtxvzF2gpX2teEuLNc=; b=ls6HtS3+fGnECQenIHgGo7SAhGuXk+yGw4iH1R0wX/2HGdqc0dIU/cro 1jD5C8fem81jPbxPsrx30iyomqdkwZfRID+DZyNUdHjaEYSDGZ7t4P+x9 IZLVydpUU6Jik4WbqNBj5M8Pw9XdQF0TOj0zMAxhyGjivGoFlfVPCqilG E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AdAgAMzkFW/xbLJq1ehH2rRwUBgQ2RawENgWOGEAKBdRQBAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBAQMBI1YFCwsYAgImAgJXBhOIJgixbJBgAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARqBAYUMgleCboRZgxwvgRUFh0SPBI0nnEUfAQFChAU9NIUuAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,270,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="631310724" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2015 11:02:39 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8816.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8816.cisco.com [10.60.202.87]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAAB2dSY010131 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:02:39 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:02:39 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1631D17E-FDD0-4233-93E1-B9E1A15940BE@cisco.com> References: To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:02:43 -0000 Hi Robert, I thought some more about this topic after our discussion at IETF. VRRP is probably not good to use because it is possible there is a = router on the LAN that may not be BIER capable, but will be elected by = VRRP to be the default gateway for unicast. Also, it is very likely we = want to define a per Group based DR election to share the load if there = are multiple BIER capable routers on the LAN. It does not seem right to = modify VRRP to support that. Thx, Ice. > On 10 Nov 2015, at 11:04, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > Hi Jeffrey, >=20 > - While Ice=E2=80=99s DR election draft was triggered from using = IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain = and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of = BIER. The draft is still applicable if BIER had never happened. >=20 >=20 >=20 > =E2=80=8BSo let me understand why this came up just now ? How does = current deployments deal with the problem ?=20 >=20 > If I recall the slides the topology Ice presented was =E2=80=8Bfollowing= : >=20 >=20 > R1 R2 > | | > ------------------- > | > H1 >=20 >=20 > where R1 and R2 are two routers terminating BIER domain and H1 is a = host. All connected over single VLAN/LAN via some L2 switch=20 >=20 > My point was that in the above case R1 and R2 would run VRRP and look = as single gateway from H1 point of view. At least for unicast.=20 >=20 > The alternative would be theoretically to configure on H1 two default = routes and let H1 perform L3 load balancing. However the problem here is = that H1 would not be normally able to detect R1 or R2 liveness hence = likely it send packets there till arp entry of dead router would = timeout.=20 >=20 > Now the key question is how does IGMP work with VRRP for multicast = today ?=20 >=20 > =46rom what I was able to find PIM and VRRP could work together. But = the R1 and R2 interfaces towards H1 are not really enabled for PIM are = they ? >=20 > Many thx, > r. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 10 04:18:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395C41A9165 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:18:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sYjgXtjftUyO for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 924BE1A9139 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAD58253; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:18:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:18:42 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:18:39 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCso5CpqZCub5kGQ9O/SyLLvZ56OJi8cgAUkc4CAAeYO7A== Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:18:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6ACCnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.5641E0A6.002C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: bd305f63aa1c29cda4f9537986748ef1 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:18:52 -0000 --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6ACCnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeffrey, There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, another o= ne is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network is a LAN, DR= /DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and other routers = as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the LAN network, IG= MP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is the focus of d= raft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a multicast source or r= eceiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through MC-LAG, flow-= based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffic. In this c= ase, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I think the = new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi-homed scena= rio. My two cents. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby scena= rios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, a= nd routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay=92s job to handle t= he multi-homing =96 be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. - While Ice=92s DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to repl= ace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has = some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is st= ill applicable if BIER had never happened. Jeffrey From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM To: Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-activ= e and active-standby access scenarios. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszu= k.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] DR election ... Ice, As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed= deployments in production networks: 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subn= et 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can= have single default out. Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there w= ill pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. Cheers, R. --_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6ACCnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jeffrey,

There are two multi-homing scenarios, = one is multi-homed network, another one is multi-homed device. For multi-ho= med network, the network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select on= e router as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the LAN network, I= GMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is the focus of = draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a multicast source or = receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through MC-LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achi= eved for uplink direction traffic. In this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for= DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I think the new DR/DF election mechanism sh= ould also cover the MC-LAG multi-homed scenario.

My two cents.

Thanks,

weiguo

From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juni= per.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08
To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ...

Not exactly sure about the details of active= -active or active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but her= e is my understanding:

 

- BIER architecture has three layers: multic= ast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really the multic= ast overlay=92s job to handle the multi-homing =96 be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things.

- While Ice=92s DR election draft was trigge= red from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a= BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still appli= cable if BIER had never happened.

 

Jeffrey

 = ;

From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; IJsbrand Wijnands <i= ce@cisco.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...

 

I agree = with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-active and ac= tive-standby access scenarios.

Thanks,<= /span>

weiguo

From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36
To: IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org=
Subject: [Bier] DR election ...<= /span>

Ice,

As we duscussed offline there are practical= ly two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks:=

1. True multihoming ... each edge router co= nnect to CEs over different subnet

2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess l= an but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out.

Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multica= st senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried th= at most BIER slides skip those.

Cheers,
R.

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB5517334F8D6ACCnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 05:10:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BDD41A92E7 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:10:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cScEsDi7dMeX for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F8471ACDDF for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by padhx2 with SMTP id hx2so225852715pad.1 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:10:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=o5l+RyjAR+D450uhveKDWG90W3s8lKaQXjSx9ViEqlc=; b=hpk6mIVNHKnwM+iSyCyb6Oo5LhFrte/GWyVi75yRXyg68SNivmXn3YsbAS/xwjb0rV t0kUqndMbxE47msJBRMlzGI+a/KMgs39PaMPJpSuMlsRd+4xpH/fw+HinQs/pdXCUqDV FHUkmE3AOuNzIi5zZgxHhN7OJzt/BaNVdXzE4LAfBg5hkU6UyMwK5n4laaIOOLINSBLi MQI6Qh29hFPbLn0Aenh7rzg5w8zN/lqXhzJHxkLPw7lhOTqlt3rffZZo6lp5wm+2wYBh tUacRDIJTumKe6hBTRnivOxVvMiDk2Z0FZD6Fapz9PHG8TmISa3UeGZuy5DtbnC02E4t RG9A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.241.194 with SMTP id wk2mr5499741pbc.45.1447161022019; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:10:22 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.66.15.72 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:10:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1631D17E-FDD0-4233-93E1-B9E1A15940BE@cisco.com> References: <1631D17E-FDD0-4233-93E1-B9E1A15940BE@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:10:21 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: KR__aDN4XXd_HlYEpA5QNXqjyy4 Message-ID: From: Robert Raszuk To: IJsbrand Wijnands Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b339c23a680f805242f6ee5 Archived-At: Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:10:28 -0000 --047d7b339c23a680f805242f6ee5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ice, Well to be clear I am not suggesting to modify VRRP here. I am simply observing that unicast and multicast forwarding will be different and likely multicast may use unicast standby router. Perhaps this is ok .... but I am not sure if this is desired operationally. Cheers, r. On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 12:02 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I thought some more about this topic after our discussion at IETF. > > VRRP is probably not good to use because it is possible there is a router > on the LAN that may not be BIER capable, but will be elected by VRRP to b= e > the default gateway for unicast. Also, it is very likely we want to defin= e > a per Group based DR election to share the load if there are multiple BIE= R > capable routers on the LAN. It does not seem right to modify VRRP to > support that. > > Thx, > > Ice. > > > On 10 Nov 2015, at 11:04, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > - While Ice=E2=80=99s DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/M= LD to > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draf= t > has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft > is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > =E2=80=8BSo let me understand why this came up just now ? How does curr= ent > deployments deal with the problem ? > > > > If I recall the slides the topology Ice presented was =E2=80=8Bfollowin= g: > > > > > > R1 R2 > > | | > > ------------------- > > | > > H1 > > > > > > where R1 and R2 are two routers terminating BIER domain and H1 is a > host. All connected over single VLAN/LAN via some L2 switch > > > > My point was that in the above case R1 and R2 would run VRRP and look a= s > single gateway from H1 point of view. At least for unicast. > > > > The alternative would be theoretically to configure on H1 two default > routes and let H1 perform L3 load balancing. However the problem here is > that H1 would not be normally able to detect R1 or R2 liveness hence like= ly > it send packets there till arp entry of dead router would timeout. > > > > Now the key question is how does IGMP work with VRRP for multicast toda= y > ? > > > > From what I was able to find PIM and VRRP could work together. But the > R1 and R2 interfaces towards H1 are not really enabled for PIM are they ? > > > > Many thx, > > r. > > > > > > > > > > --047d7b339c23a680f805242f6ee5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ice,

Well to be clear I am not suggesting to modify VRRP h= ere.=C2=A0

I am simply= observing that unicast and multicast forwarding will be different and like= ly multicast may use unicast standby router.=C2=A0
=
Perhaps this is ok .... but I am not sure if t= his is desired operationally.

Cheers,
r.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 12:02 PM, IJs= brand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

I thought some more about this topic after our discussion at IETF.

VRRP is probably not good to use because it is possible there is a router o= n the LAN that may not be BIER capable, but will be elected by VRRP to be t= he default gateway for unicast. Also, it is very likely we want to define a= per Group based DR election to share the load if there are multiple BIER c= apable routers on the LAN. It does not seem right to modify VRRP to support= that.

Thx,

Ice.

> On 10 Nov 2015, at 11:04, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Jeffrey,
>
> - While Ice=E2=80=99s DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/= MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the= draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The = draft is still applicable if BIER had never happened.
>
>
>
> =E2=80=8BSo let me understand why this came up just now ? How does cur= rent deployments deal with the problem ?
>
> If I recall the slides the topology Ice presented was =E2=80=8Bfollowi= ng:
>
>
> R1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 R2
>=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = |
>=C2=A0 -------------------
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0H1
>
>
> where R1 and R2 are two routers terminating BIER domain and H1 is a ho= st. All connected over single VLAN/LAN via some L2 switch
>
> My point was that in the above case R1 and R2 would run VRRP and look = as single gateway from H1 point of view. At least for unicast.
>
> The alternative would be theoretically to configure on H1 two default = routes and let H1 perform L3 load balancing. However the problem here is th= at H1 would not be normally able to detect R1 or R2 liveness hence likely i= t send packets there till arp entry of dead router would timeout.
>
> Now the key question is how does IGMP work with VRRP for multicast tod= ay ?
>
> From what I was able to find PIM and VRRP could work together. But the= R1 and R2 interfaces towards H1 are not really enabled for PIM are they ?<= br> >
> Many thx,
> r.
>
>
>
>


--047d7b339c23a680f805242f6ee5-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 06:52:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCA11B2CF6; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 06:52:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wuM42HTgwVWG; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 06:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0118.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 476631B2CBE; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 06:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.140.158) by CY1PR0501MB1724.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.140.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:52:50 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.140.158]) by CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.140.158]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:52:50 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Haoweiguo , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: DR election ... Thread-Index: AdEbx1XoVoRoqWJEReWKSaVt1JY85A== Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:52:49 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.10] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR0501MB1724; 5:wA37eHFYID3RTM7huwsJyhooe8PbWlvOwrovPJp9j3MYFbIEPq7TMZ/61EcFrnReMuxb9F3/T/mX0ITUm3Q/ovxAiJuPYdY9xfKapJ9fuEY/5EB1drV/Sjeaohj65obo2QJWAIjReIcz4BASa2SmVg==; 24:/1LEBf0depUmGWhFvpXZ2+OIBl/ljMbdZGmTGHitQkQsBuCeRZP8OJ/d/GmXaDJrOJoXmHFdMdsI8ho69VEalmlpdxtV1Z8J3dZUh8xkGMY=; 20:ktKdGDr/q5W6V/X8a6HqwoC6MD2/vZp/MMsoGlqmZBIWheVWOcZWNpBBzlPlISH82ExsnkECHvXsk/kTmJKRoA== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1724; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014)(108003899814671); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(520078)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1724; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1724; x-forefront-prvs: 07562C22DA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(189002)(377454003)(199003)(164054003)(106356001)(33656002)(105586002)(122556002)(97736004)(5001770100001)(5001960100002)(81156007)(76576001)(16236675004)(87936001)(66066001)(5007970100001)(40100003)(19300405004)(5004730100002)(19580405001)(19580395003)(15975445007)(77096005)(101416001)(102836002)(2900100001)(10400500002)(92566002)(19625215002)(5003600100002)(189998001)(74316001)(99286002)(5002640100001)(50986999)(86362001)(54356999)(11100500001)(5008740100001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1724; H:CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR0501MB17218924FFB052DA1B502BC8D4140CY1PR0501MB1721_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Nov 2015 14:52:49.9988 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0501MB1724 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:52:57 -0000 --_000_CY1PR0501MB17218924FFB052DA1B502BC8D4140CY1PR0501MB1721_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ + PIM ] Weiguo, In the MC-LAG case, put aside BIER, how does it work today with PIM? Jeffrey From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:19 AM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... Hi Jeffrey, There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, another o= ne is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network is a LAN, DR= /DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and other routers = as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the LAN network, IG= MP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is the focus of d= raft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a multicast source or r= eceiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through MC-LAG, flow-= based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffic. In this c= ase, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I think the = new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi-homed scena= rio. My two cents. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby scena= rios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, a= nd routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the= multi-homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replac= e PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has so= me BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is stil= l applicable if BIER had never happened. Jeffrey From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM To: Robert Raszuk >; IJsbrand W= ijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-activ= e and active-standby access scenarios. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszu= k.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] DR election ... Ice, As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed= deployments in production networks: 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subn= et 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can= have single default out. Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there w= ill pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. Cheers, R. --_000_CY1PR0501MB17218924FFB052DA1B502BC8D4140CY1PR0501MB1721_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[ + PIM ]

 

Weiguo,

 

In the MC-LAG case, put aside BIER, h= ow does it work today with PIM?

 

Jeffrey

&nbs= p;

From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@hu= awei.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:19 AM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; Robert Raszu= k <robert@raszuk.net>; IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ...

 

H= i Jeffrey,

T= here are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, another on= e is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network is a LAN, DR/= DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can forward t= raffic to the LAN network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF ele= ction, this is the focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. Howeve= r, if a multicast source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through MC-LAG, flow-based l= oadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffic. In this case, IG= MP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I think the new DR/= DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi-homed scenario.

M= y two cents.

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

From:<= /span> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08
To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ...

Not exactly sure about the details of= active-active or active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER, = but here is my understanding:=

 =

- BIER architecture has three layers:= multicast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really the= multicast overlay’s job to handle the multi-homing – be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things.

- While Ice’s DR election draft= was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay sig= naling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still appli= cable if BIER had never happened.

 =

Jeffrey

 =

From: BIER [= mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@ra= szuk.net>; IJsbrand Wijnands <ic= e@cisco.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...

 =

I= agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-active= and active-standby access scenarios.

T= hanks,

w= eiguo

From:<= /span> BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36
To: IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org=
Subject: [Bier] DR election ...

Ice,

As we duscussed offline there are practicall= y two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks:

1. True multihoming ... each edge router con= nect to CEs over different subnet

2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess la= n but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out.<= /p>

Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicas= t senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried tha= t most BIER slides skip those.

Cheers,
R.

--_000_CY1PR0501MB17218924FFB052DA1B502BC8D4140CY1PR0501MB1721_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 06:55:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8461B37D2; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 06:55:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AkmdbYYZ9M_4; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 06:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0732.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F06D1B37D1; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 06:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.140.158) by CY1PR0501MB1724.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.140.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:54:59 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.140.158]) by CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.140.158]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:54:59 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: DR election ... 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X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:05:17 -0000 --_000_CY1PR0501MB17217A7E55D7303D6A0AF539D4140CY1PR0501MB1721_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 WyArIFBJTSBdDQoNCkhpIFJvYmVydCwNCg0KUGxlYXNlIHNlZSB6emg+IGJlbG93Lg0KDQpGcm9t OiBycmFzenVrQGdtYWlsLmNvbSBbbWFpbHRvOnJyYXN6dWtAZ21haWwuY29tXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYg T2YgUm9iZXJ0IFJhc3p1aw0KU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMTAsIDIwMTUgNTowNSBB TQ0KVG86IEplZmZyZXkgKFpoYW9odWkpIFpoYW5nIDx6emhhbmdAanVuaXBlci5uZXQ+DQpDYzog SGFvd2VpZ3VvIDxoYW93ZWlndW9AaHVhd2VpLmNvbT47IElKc2JyYW5kIFdpam5hbmRzIDxpY2VA Y2lzY28uY29tPjsgYmllckBpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtCaWVyXSBEUiBlbGVjdGlv biAuLi4NCg0KSGkgSmVmZnJleSwNCg0KLSBXaGlsZSBJY2XigJlzIERSIGVsZWN0aW9uIGRyYWZ0 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from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 244AA1B386B for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:09:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12540; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447168183; x=1448377783; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=q8Sx5sy6DNJ6M6SOckcd6kP9YM8z61WUds3e96tQs8g=; b=N7LW7iCYo2WQfx+ikhKzwAGkiwNA3ajl2+oWcK6q6XFp6o+chX8S2fMz cOvkAUXJefOEAxW9hhp9g7/dCthZo2L67Ggil8nc5vR5itQfr5YLvt/Y4 Ayg/+RLe1zHI2cZMEHhFmP2PFtObMScaUh/F63yxB0yoQwZUXW6nDuJ1X Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AOAgDZB0JW/40NJK1egm5NU28Gvj8BDYFlhhACgT04FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEBBC1FBxACAQgRAQIBAQEoBzIUAwYIAgQBDQWILsMgAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGIZUhH6EexaEKAWIHYU3hRODYQGNJZxEAR8BAUKEBHKEJ4EHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,270,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217,223";a="205547690" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2015 15:09:42 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (xch-rcd-007.cisco.com [173.37.102.17]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAAF9gES028630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:09:42 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) by XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (173.37.102.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:09:41 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:09:41 -0600 From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , Robert Raszuk , "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslUdFp39dwsE6uk8SzfYZQNp6OizcAgAWqHYCAAUK6AA== Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:09:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.2.150604 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.60.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D267740C1036EBrrahmanciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:09:57 -0000 --_000_D267740C1036EBrrahmanciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the draft it seems that active-stanby is the requirement? Regarding active-active, I don't know how that would work with BIER. The go= al of active-active is typically to have all links utilized. Looking at dra= ft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election, R3 could be the DR for some flows/servic= es and R4 would be the DR for other flow/services, but how do you define/co= nfigure/share the service/flow? Regards, Reshad. From: BIER > on behalf = of "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" = > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 12:08 AM To: Haoweiguo >, Robert R= aszuk >, "IJsbrand Wijnands (iw= ijnand)" > Cc: "bier@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby scena= rios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, a= nd routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the= multi-homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replac= e PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has so= me BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is stil= l applicable if BIER had never happened. Jeffrey From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM To: Robert Raszuk >; IJsbrand W= ijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-activ= e and active-standby access scenarios. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf = of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] DR election ... Ice, As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed= deployments in production networks: 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subn= et 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can= have single default out. Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there w= ill pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. Cheers, R. --_000_D267740C1036EBrrahmanciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From the draft it seems that active-stanby is the requirement?

Regarding active-active, I don’t know how that would work with B= IER. The goal of active-active is typically to have all links utilized. Loo= king at draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election, R3 could be the DR for s= ome flows/services and R4 would be the DR for other flow/services, but how do you define/configure/share the service/flo= w?

Regards,
Reshad.

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Jeffr= ey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@j= uniper.net>
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at= 12:08 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "IJsbrand = Wijnands (iwijnand)" <ice@cisco.co= m>
Cc: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...=

Not exactly sure about the details = of active-active or active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER= , but here is my understanding:

 

- BIER architecture has three layer= s: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really t= he multicast overlay’s job to handle the multi-homing – be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things.=

- While Ice’s DR election dra= ft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay s= ignaling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is s= till applicable if BIER had never happened.

 

Jeffrey

&n= bsp;

From: BIER [m= ailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@ra= szuk.net>; IJsbrand Wijnands <ic= e@cisco.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...

 

I agree = with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-active and ac= tive-standby access scenarios.

Thanks,<= /span>

weiguo

From:<= /b> BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.o= rg] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@ra= szuk.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36
To: IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] DR election ...

Ice,

As we duscussed offline there are practicall= y two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks:

1. True multihoming ... each edge router con= nect to CEs over different subnet

2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess la= n but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out.<= /p>

Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicas= t senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried tha= t most BIER slides skip those.

Cheers,
R.

 --_000_D267740C1036EBrrahmanciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 10:49:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCAB1B3CC4 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:49:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hq5AZcCQRAZE for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34F111B3CC0 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:49:24 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-b9-5641ce717c86 Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 05.89.26730.17EC1465; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:01:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:49:21 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAT1YAIAAEDOAgAAuEGA= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:49:21 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12467@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1631D17E-FDD0-4233-93E1-B9E1A15940BE@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1631D17E-FDD0-4233-93E1-B9E1A15940BE@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoG7hOccwg+ZtuhZLZ+xhsnixgsPi 1Zw7zBZNC5uYLY5cbGRxYPWY8nsjq0fLkbesHkuW/GTyuN50ld1j98YFTAGsUVw2Kak5mWWp Rfp2CVwZr9coFXQoV0zYIdnAOEWpi5GTQ0LAROLMslOMELaYxIV769m6GLk4hASOMEr8PHkD ylnOKLGqu5UVpIpNwELi8renzCC2iICHxIv958FsZoFyieN9T9lBbGEBZYljP+9D1ahIbP5y kxXC9pOYdXM1E4jNIqAq8fnaTjCbV8BXYkH7K2aIZW+ZJFbevwbUwMHBKWAr8ftPMkgNI9B1 30+tYYLYJS5x68l8JoirBSSW7IG4QUJAVOLl43+sELaSxKSl58DGMAtoSqzfpQ/Rqigxpfsh O8RaQYmTM5+wTGAUm4Vk6iyEjllIOmYh6VjAyLKKkaO0OLUsN93IcBMjMLKOSbA57mBc8Mny EKMAB6MSD++HLQ5hQqyJZcWVuYcYJTiYlUR4GV87hgnxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9ilOZgURLn nTfjfqiQQHpiSWp2ampBahFMlomDU6qB0bRqVYXi5uRoK0Yhl5QuwymvVN9nfj3Rqmw5V2zt lutq+4svCUzTPN3wb59m84cJhevjUydqc95zj3w2Z/vy84Uq+suyr925ku/DdUPhqrLYicPP /hh9m3bo0U0FndUFq03Pa2x0yE97Fu6zRnHB/GslOn/tq/dNiDTtSnWwyJvxJLREZHMXgxJL cUaioRZzUXEiAJt2AUyoAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... 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Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:50:29 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , Robert Raszuk , "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAZKRgP//6cyQ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:50:29 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1248E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1248Eeusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrOIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPrO6Wc45hBo8+61ssnbGHyeLFCg6L V3PuMFs0LWxitri2opXd4sjFRhYHNo8pvzeyerQcecvqsWTJTyaP601X2T12b1zAFMAaxWWT kpqTWZZapG+XwJVxestlloIHXYwVs2ecZ25g/FPdxcjJISFgInH7wVkWCFtM4sK99WxdjFwc QgJHGCXudP1gAkkICSxnlPj2MwjEZhOwkLj87SkzSJGIwC1GiVMnFrOCJJgFlCU+b54E1iAM ZB/7eZ8ZxBYRUJHY/OUmUA0HkO0m8excOkiYRUBVovXiX7ASXgFfiUmTb7NALJ7JJHHjzFOw OZwCBhJfv3wCu44R6Lrvp9YwQewSl7j1ZD4TxNUCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+xwphK0lMWnoO6rZ8 iW+f1zNBLBOUODnzCcsERtFZSEbNQlI2C0kZRFxHYsHuT2wQtrbEsoWvmWHsMwceMyGLL2Bk X8XIUVqcWpabbmS4iREYncck2Bx3MC74ZHmIUYCDUYmH98MWhzAh1sSy4srcQ4wSHMxKIryM rx3DhHhTEiurUovy44tKc1KLDzFKc7AoifPOm3E/VEggPbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cAYadbC fO6GTddM4+8qVR/53Q/wiarqWYezf71RtNFWfskcacGfU3UvHG8JDZu+44FP1tcrv39G7N2t W2ohODFCk8c+db55Yd00gyV7lJmzpS/cn6DIMzOorr66Qej/w6kRC4Ovcy4K8tcUUptevYBd 8Ot/yZlfWJs9p13b+kWqPe9lVeL8gpNKLMUZiYZazEXFiQAfPMAfygIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:50:34 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1248Eeusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can't use active-active unless you start to alias, not an easy thing to= do ... thanks --- tony _____________________________________________ "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent = behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid beha= vior." --- Dee Hock From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Reshad Rahman (rrahm= an) Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:10 AM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands (i= wijnand) Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... >From the draft it seems that active-stanby is the requirement? Regarding active-active, I don't know how that would work with BIER. The go= al of active-active is typically to have all links utilized. Looking at dra= ft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election, R3 could be the DR for some flows/servic= es and R4 would be the DR for other flow/services, but how do you define/co= nfigure/share the service/flow? Regards, Reshad. From: BIER > on behalf = of "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" = > Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 12:08 AM To: Haoweiguo >, Robert R= aszuk >, "IJsbrand Wijnands (iw= ijnand)" > Cc: "bier@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby scena= rios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, a= nd routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the= multi-homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replac= e PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has so= me BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is stil= l applicable if BIER had never happened. Jeffrey From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM To: Robert Raszuk >; IJsbrand W= ijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-activ= e and active-standby access scenarios. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf = of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] DR election ... Ice, As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed= deployments in production networks: 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subn= et 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can= have single default out. Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there w= ill pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. Cheers, R. --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1248Eeusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You can’t use activ= e-active unless you start to alias, not an easy thing to do …

 <= /p>

thanks

 

--- tony<= /span>

_____________________________________________

“Simple, clear purpose and principles giv= e rise to complex and intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations g= ive rise to simple and stupid behavior.”

--- Dee Hock

 <= /p>

From: BIER [ma= ilto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Reshad Rahman (rrahman)
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:10 AM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijn= ands (iwijnand)
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...

 

From the draft it seems tha= t active-stanby is the requirement?

 

Regarding active-active, I = don’t know how that would work with BIER. The goal of active-active i= s typically to have all links utilized. Looking at draft-wijnands-bier= -mld-lan-election, R3 could be the DR for some flows/services and R4 would be the DR for othe= r flow/services, but how do you define/configure/share the service/flow?

 

Regards,<= /p>

Reshad.

 

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Jeffrey (Zhaohu= i) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net= >
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 12:08 AM
To: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@= huawei.com>, Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net>, "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" <ice@cisco.com>
Cc: "bier@ietf.org" &= lt;bier@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...

 

Not exactly sure about th= e details of active-active or active-standby scenarios and their relationsh= ip to BIER, but here is my understanding:

 

- BIER architecture has t= hree layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It i= s really the multicast overlay’s job to handle the multi-homing – be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things.

- While Ice’s DR el= ection draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast= overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still appli= cable if BIER had never happened.

 

Jeffrey

 

From: BIER [mailto:bie= r-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@ra= szuk.net>; IJsbrand Wijnands <ic= e@cisco.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...

 =

I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover a= ctive-active and active-standby access scenarios.

Thanks,

weiguo

From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@ra= szuk.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36
To: IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] DR election ...

Ice,

As we duscussed offline there are practicall= y two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks:

1. True multihoming ... each edge router con= nect to CEs over different subnet

2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess la= n but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out.<= /p>

Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicas= t senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried tha= t most BIER slides skip those.

Cheers,
R.

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1248Eeusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 10:52:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593011B3CC3 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:52:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FIPCdSHf5IE9 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E89581B3CB0 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:52:24 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-42-5641db44a518 Received: from EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.96]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id A5.1B.32596.44BD1465; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:55:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.96]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:52:23 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Haoweiguo , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAWLHgIAAGc/w Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:52:22 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPgq7Lbccwg4l90hZLZ+xhsnixgsPi 1Zw7zBZNC5uYLY5cbGRxYPWY8nsjq0fLkbesHkuW/GTyuN50ld1j98YFTAGsUVw2Kak5mWWp Rfp2CVwZTbMPMBd8b2eseP3Pp4Gxs6KLkZNDQsBEYu+kTmYIW0ziwr31bF2MXBxCAkcYJY5/ /sYE4SxnlGjs+M0CUsUmYCFx+dtTZpCEiMA8RonXTafAEswCyhKfN09iArGFgexjP++DjRUR UJHY/OUmaxcjB5DtJtF3yhMkzCKgKnH92CuwVl4BX4l5T6eyQiw7wCTxevI5sASnQJjE13Nr 2EBsRqDzvp9awwSxS1zi1pP5TBBnC0gs2XMe6gVRiZeP/7FC2EoSk5aeY4Woz5f4tW0uI8Qy QYmTM5+wTGAUnYVk1CwkZbOQlEHEdSQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZxj5z4DETsvgCRvZVjBylxall uelGBpsYgTF5TIJNdwfjnpeWhxgFOBiVeHg/bHEIE2JNLCuuzD3EKMHBrCTCy/jaMUyINyWx siq1KD++qDQntfgQozQHi5I47/4l90OFBNITS1KzU1MLUotgskwcnFINjJNNhEwMmDdzeDHq sKzkCikIWHL5gDJrl6+aV22lzb/mCMbJ1d9/L7vvu+zQhJl3G/WqT9XYvj2RNPuWNTPHdatV klwxqoK8Ws3fo+wuKITZeTya5fHuiW/eH8nuznDZRbJRU/VeFW5efTaruIHP2Pa879+JrCIV LuIek0585Vo6yyKi7+VXJZbijERDLeai4kQAkxc6f8UCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:52:28 -0000 --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeffrey, There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, another o= ne is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network is a LAN, DR= /DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and other routers = as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the LAN network, IG= MP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is the focus of d= raft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a multicast source or r= eceiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through MC-LAG, flow-= based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffic. In this c= ase, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I think the = new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi-homed scena= rio. [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is the proper = term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to use that, people see L= ACP immediately ;-) Tony My two cents. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby scena= rios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, a= nd routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the= multi-homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replac= e PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has so= me BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is stil= l applicable if BIER had never happened. Jeffrey From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM To: Robert Raszuk >; IJsbrand W= ijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-activ= e and active-standby access scenarios. Thanks, weiguo ________________________________ From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszu= k.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] DR election ... Ice, As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed= deployments in production networks: 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subn= et 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can= have single default out. Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there w= ill pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. Cheers, R. --_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4eusaamb103erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 <= /p>

 

Hi Jeffrey,

There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network= , another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network i= s a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can forward t= raffic to the LAN network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF ele= ction, this is the focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. Howeve= r, if a multicast source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through MC-LAG, flow-based l= oadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffic. In this case, IG= MP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I think the new DR/= DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi-homed scenario.

[Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I s= ent out as well.  MHD is the proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG b= ut I don’t like to use that, people see LACP immediately ;-)

 =

Tony

 <= /o:p>

 

My two cents.

Thanks,

weiguo

From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzh= ang@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08
To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ...

Not exactly sure about th= e details of active-active or active-standby scenarios and their relationsh= ip to BIER, but here is my understanding:

 =

- BIER architecture has t= hree layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It i= s really the multicast overlay’s job to handle the multi-homing – be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things.

- While Ice’s DR el= ection draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast= overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still appli= cable if BIER had never happened.

 =

Jeffrey

 

From: BIER [mailto:bie= r-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@ra= szuk.net>; IJsbrand Wijnands <ic= e@cisco.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...

 =

I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover a= ctive-active and active-standby access scenarios.

Thanks,

weiguo

From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org]= on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36
To: IJsbrand Wijnands
Cc: bier@ietf.org=
Subject: [Bier] DR election ...

Ice,

As we duscussed offline there are practicall= y two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks:

1. True multihoming ... each edge router con= nect to CEs over different subnet

2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess la= n but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out.<= /p>

Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicas= t senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried tha= t most BIER slides skip those.

Cheers,
R.

--_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 14:33:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D9F1B4173; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:33:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fmr92hRWHQy6; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC3361B416E; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:33:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4176; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447194823; x=1448404423; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=tb/VH/5DLRpOu9B2LLQ0unIcyWt4WDJxr5AopTUOZgs=; b=HspJXQNsiSfRhIPJqxv2HTdTceS7PhCwrPWIb53l7bQlNRlMuiLKD84O Mh2FLhEDaYInGOAJpS/b2ceGhryZYENCgKXCPy9o6lq+qwClrRaj0nZTs nnVEdvIa3mO2L2pzjA56WkzHblBMcLqSD6omaQ8XDENXgeH/CLGnXtApw A=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,272,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="45697304" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2015 22:33:43 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAAMXgDY006425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:33:43 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAAMXgPp021248; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:33:42 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAAMXfoc021247; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:33:41 -0800 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:33:41 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Message-ID: <20151110223341.GB19769@cisco.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , "pim@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:33:51 -0000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC-LAG ??? Thats an L2 technology, PIM would neither know nor care. If you're talking about eg: dual-PE or in general dual PIM routers connecting to the same LAN, PIM DR/DF priority can follow VRRP/HSRP priority to leverage their fast failover draft-zhou-pim-vrrp-03. There is no load-splitting in this approach though, so only one router is DR/DF. If you want load-balancing, you may want draft-ietf-pim-drlb (currently expired, already had last call). Toerless On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 02:52:49PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > [ + PIM ] > > Weiguo, > > In the MC-LAG case, put aside BIER, how does it work today with PIM? > > Jeffrey > > From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:19 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand Wijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the LAN network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is the focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a multicast source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through MC-LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffic. In this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I think the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi-homed scenario. > > My two cents. > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > ________________________________ > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the multi-homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > > Jeffrey > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > To: Robert Raszuk >; IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-active and active-standby access scenarios. > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > ________________________________ > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net] > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > Ice, > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks: > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subnet > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out. > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. > > Cheers, > R. > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Tue Nov 10 14:46:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B1A1B4222; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:46:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G6Wj6nea6_wR; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0782.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:782]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 097501B421F; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.140.158) by CY1PR0501MB1723.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.140.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:45:06 +0000 Received: from CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.140.158]) by CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.140.158]) with mapi id 15.01.0318.003; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:45:06 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AdEbx1XoVoRoqWJEReWKSaVt1JY85AAQIOaAAABbT+A= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:45:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151110223341.GB19769@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151110223341.GB19769@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.12] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR0501MB1723; 5:08xP2OuZ5qDTf0HJAVduJerY/G+9D1sS2YmKT4ejLFa/4PdqlaWaypkxhqJIWcbyMNViIMf85rbqxD9LdEtdDXJQ8zYCn5KJhIAeRS3xnkVe0ktCgSuGB6t1SoeD/0W9UG2v9BS/mfouh4D00XfKzg==; 24:vFCjtmvoX14KRx8lDTfw0wn3X/k/1bHGU/9SSPd3exK+wl9yTb31Q/LV9UjJPsdtgJQqyft91bnltXrlA2IHzBpckAN2LCIRZrzFli0D/Wo=; 20:z8ol7sbLIb1wWXfNGhHiO+PUlr98wgarz7akIQ/Kh3G9wjIqBqPpYleZR2O9dYOcH5p27pZ5TpyrR317CW3dNw== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1723; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(520078)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1723; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1723; x-forefront-prvs: 07562C22DA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(13464003)(199003)(164054003)(189002)(24454002)(377454003)(97736004)(5008740100001)(2950100001)(10400500002)(81156007)(77096005)(33656002)(101416001)(5001920100001)(11100500001)(5007970100001)(54356999)(102836002)(5004730100002)(5001960100002)(74316001)(19580395003)(110136002)(76576001)(15975445007)(50986999)(87936001)(2900100001)(5003600100002)(76176999)(122556002)(40100003)(99286002)(5002640100001)(106356001)(19580405001)(66066001)(105586002)(189998001)(86362001)(92566002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1723; H:CY1PR0501MB1721.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Nov 2015 22:45:05.7457 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0501MB1723 Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , "pim@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:46:31 -0000 Neither should BIER care - or it's transparent to PIM/BIER ... that's my po= int. > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:34 PM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Robert Raszuk ; > IJsbrand Wijnands ; bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... >=20 >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC-LAG ??? >=20 > Thats an L2 technology, PIM would neither know nor care. >=20 > If you're talking about eg: dual-PE or in general dual PIM routers > connecting to the same LAN, PIM DR/DF priority can follow VRRP/HSRP > priority to leverage their fast failover draft-zhou-pim-vrrp-03. >=20 > There is no load-splitting in this approach though, so only one > router is DR/DF. If you want load-balancing, you may want > draft-ietf-pim-drlb (currently expired, already had last call). >=20 >=20 > Toerless >=20 > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 02:52:49PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > > [ + PIM ] > > > > Weiguo, > > > > In the MC-LAG case, put aside BIER, how does it work today with PIM? > > > > Jeffrey > > > > From: Haoweiguo [mailto:haoweiguo@huawei.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:19 AM > > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Robert Raszuk > ; IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network i= s > a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and > other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the > LAN network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this > is the focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > multicast source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast router= s > through MC-LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink > direction traffic. In this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF electio= n > for the MC-LAG. I think the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cove= r > the MC-LAG multi-homed scenario. > > > > My two cents. > > > > Thanks, > > > > weiguo > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwardin= g, > and routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle > the multi-homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draf= t > has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft > is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > Jeffrey > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > To: Robert Raszuk >; > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active- > active and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > Thanks, > > > > weiguo > > > > ________________________________ > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > [robert@raszuk.net] > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Ice, > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different > subnet > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts > can have single default out. > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides ski= p > those. > > > > Cheers, > > R. >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 >=20 > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Tue Nov 10 14:51:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7891B4286 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:51:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdBOoUYnpvjz for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16B171B422D for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4023; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447195636; x=1448405236; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=uiPxcPyrlyjwYxCgknTzPMwcet1q+h0iQi+OVm7jpYY=; b=WWGHlfr0YQuRi2X0YlAS4OytxGZTS/R4Xo5prjRGI4J5XRjnAv35EO4A zTgHV2bnJoIN2lLnTEGjjcKPrvipN1ksMwcrVD68AJgQ3sSjxrl4hjwDE CtqtAW0h8oPmtllLWqR9yJKE2oHsqFk7zoRsUxPSqQWcp5Vr/DDa1+rcG w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,272,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="206907397" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2015 22:47:15 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAAMlFju001454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:47:15 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAAMl4a2021846; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:47:04 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAAMl3JD021845; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:47:03 -0800 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:47:03 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Antoni Przygienda Message-ID: <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:51:37 -0000 Tony, Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to be used with BIER ? The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. No standard approach AFAIK. I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any form of BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there is anything we could/should define about it in IETF. Cheers Toerless On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the LAN network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is the focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a multicast source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through MC-LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffic. In this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I think the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi-homed scenario. > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is the proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to use that, people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > Tony > > > > > > My two cents. > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > ________________________________ > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwarding, and routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the multi-homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draft has some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is still applicable if BIER had never happened. > > Jeffrey > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > To: Robert Raszuk >; IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-active and active-standby access scenarios. > > Thanks, > > weiguo > > ________________________________ > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net] > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > Cc: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > Ice, > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of multihomed deployments in production networks: > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different subnet > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts can have single default out. > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides skip those. > > Cheers, > R. > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Tue Nov 10 17:17:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3D81B453A for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:17:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GZzIyP3FdKKn for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 819051B4532 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:17:13 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-76-56422953e246 Received: from EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.96]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id DF.6C.26730.35922465; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:28:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.96]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:17:12 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAWLHgIAAGc/wgACVxID//7c10A== Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:17:12 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprHIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPgm6wplOYwcETChZLZ+xhsti7/B6b xYsVHBav5txhtmha2MRsceRiI4sDm8eU3xtZPVqOvGX1WLLkJ5PH9aar7B67Ny5gCmCN4rJJ Sc3JLEst0rdL4Mr4924TU8Eh9YrFnyawNjDulO9i5OSQEDCRWHZiHROELSZx4d56ti5GLg4h gSOMEku2PWWBcJYzSrzs72IHqWITsJC4/O0pM4gtIqAmcfZkD1gHs8B+RolN8ycygiSEBZQl jv28D1WkIrH5y03WLkYOIDtMom9mDUiYRUBV4tCEPSwgNq+Ar8SFh4/BWoUE7jBJ7D0dA2Jz CuhLNM3ZwwZiMwJd9/3UGrBLmQXEJW49mQ91tYDEkj3nmSFsUYmXj/+xQtiKEvv6p7ND1OtI LNj9iQ3C1pZYtvA1M8ReQYmTM5+wTGAUm4Vk7CwkLbOQtMxC0rKAkWUVI0dpcWpZbrqR4SZG YKwdk2Bz3MG44JPlIUYBDkYlHt4CNqcwIdbEsuLK3EOMEhzMSiK8/uFAId6UxMqq1KL8+KLS nNTiQ4zSHCxK4rzzZtwPFRJITyxJzU5NLUgtgskycXBKNTBqVUsFNRY5nWBzK4+vfxQ6xTz5 +ePfSwzXL+YQvxy6xThWq13KqM5e1MJkwu087Tten+aYrkqTiKxhXv6qrn9BxCyN8xw5Dle5 903/dVBzeYrKTiez6oUsS/b4HPrH8Cb/VWzrhyDv3me/PUIzHVNecCnf7LJ6qCb04HwMU7BX tP8vFq1ySyWW4oxEQy3mouJEAEfkkVWxAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 01:17:15 -0000 That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have the probl= em and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect DF.=20 Do I miss anything ?=20 thanks=20 --- tony _____________________________________________ "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent = behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid beha= vior."=20 --- Dee Hock=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > To: Antoni Przygienda > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; > bier@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... >=20 > Tony, >=20 > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to be > used with BIER ? >=20 > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > No standard approach AFAIK. >=20 > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any form of > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. >=20 > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there is any= thing > we could/should define about it in IETF. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network > is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and > other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the= LAN > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is t= he > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a multicast > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through = MC- > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffi= c. In > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I th= ink > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi- > homed scenario. > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is the > > proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to use that, > > people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > Thanks, > > > > weiguo > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwardin= g, and > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the = multi- > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draf= t has > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is = still > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > Jeffrey > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > To: Robert Raszuk >; > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-a= ctive > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > Thanks, > > > > weiguo > > > > ________________________________ > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Ice, > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different > > subnet > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts= can > have single default out. > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides ski= p > those. > > > > Cheers, > > R. >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >=20 >=20 > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Tue Nov 10 22:21:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605631B32ED for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:21:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldz-1Ue-_laI for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F25101B32EF for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDY09480; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:20:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:20:56 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:20:00 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: Antoni Przygienda , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCso5CpqZCub5kGQ9O/SyLLvZ56OJi8cgAUkc4CAAeYO7P//6roAgABBkoCAACn0AIAA2W1+ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:19:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com>, <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.23.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.5642DE49.00ED, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 34114e899a9c8bd7b702dc91be78701b Archived-At: Cc: "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:21:09 -0000 Yes, i also think MHD is more accurate than MC-LAG. The first impression fo= r MC-LAG is a proprietory technology. Currently in PIM WG, maybe there are = no good existed solutions for MHD. I also suggests that we had better cover= this scenario in future solutions. thanks, weiguo ________________________________________ From: Antoni Przygienda [antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 9:17 To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; b= ier@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have the probl= em and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect DF. Do I miss anything ? thanks --- tony _____________________________________________ "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent = behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid beha= vior." --- Dee Hock > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > To: Antoni Przygienda > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; > bier@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > Tony, > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to be > used with BIER ? > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > No standard approach AFAIK. > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any form of > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there is any= thing > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network > is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and > other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to the= LAN > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is t= he > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a multicast > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through = MC- > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction traffi= c. In > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I th= ink > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi- > homed scenario. > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is the > > proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to use that, > > people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > Thanks, > > > > weiguo > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier forwardin= g, and > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the = multi- > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the draf= t has > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is = still > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > Jeffrey > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > To: Robert Raszuk >; > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active-a= ctive > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > Thanks, > > > > weiguo > > > > ________________________________ > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Ice, > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different > > subnet > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so hosts= can > have single default out. > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides ski= p > those. > > > > Cheers, > > R. > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com= From nobody Wed Nov 11 05:43:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DF81ACDB4; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:43:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ivx7fuKD7Iuq; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1on0737.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::737]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90BDD1ACDBF; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1713.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:42:51 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0325.003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:42:51 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Antoni Przygienda , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCsjGEeVQM2i90iRBt68ehqtc56OJqIAgAWn3qCAAWUGgIAAbgAAgABBkoCAACn0AIAAz6cA Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:42:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.12] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB1713; 5:VZtrUyAGU1kBktGIeJgXbNYcsWCkWBb/xF9e1KBrRlHMHNDtA0RKnP1qOfymi9rGUbhEeMKs69SEHeuqCgx4SOz8R/x4acWkg6LJ4qJqmPEAJJ7kwMnnOdU6Q46hpxBhedjuTM9CUeoJGLqS8+YyQw==; 24:qADZcBm9hkX56LgL6+KsAKEf24DiWW/iRvR5r2l8oJVlDnR2dtgLBzEeNptGl/3YnYgLHbkzLE+cCdWHPOA3mKD5co5AGiVGE//wz2dYN0A=; 20:+nDcG0eLxrLlIY3PiB/gaQbPvSvDTblxWCAPsW7yQqeTlB2e1usm7ik3gWEpcWA4PhMvrE5sMDNjJsYbclp6DA== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014)(37575265505322); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(520078)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; x-forefront-prvs: 0757EEBDCA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(189002)(24454002)(164054003)(13464003)(199003)(377454003)(46584002)(87936001)(105586002)(102836002)(40100003)(76176999)(50986999)(5008740100001)(54356999)(106116001)(93886004)(19580395003)(106356001)(15975445007)(92566002)(122556002)(76576001)(99286002)(74316001)(19580405001)(5001770100001)(189998001)(97736004)(81156007)(5001960100002)(5003600100002)(5001920100001)(2950100001)(2900100001)(101416001)(33656002)(5007970100001)(10400500002)(86362001)(77096005)(5004730100002)(66066001)(5002640100001)(11100500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; H:BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Nov 2015 13:42:50.8433 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB1713 Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , "pim@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:43:00 -0000 [+ PIM] So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a standard fo= r MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing piece for = MHD is l3 mcast? Jeffrey > -----Original Message----- > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM > To: Toerless Eckert > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand Wijnand= s > ; bier@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... >=20 > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have the > problem and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect DF. >=20 > Do I miss anything ? >=20 > thanks >=20 > --- tony > _____________________________________________ > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligen= t > behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid > behavior." > --- Dee Hock >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > > To: Antoni Przygienda > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnand= s; > > bier@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Tony, > > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to be > > used with BIER ? > > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > > No standard approach AFAIK. > > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any form of > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there is > anything > > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network > > is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master an= d > > other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to > the LAN > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is > the > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > multicast > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers throug= h > MC- > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction > traffic. In > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I > think > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi- > > homed scenario. > > > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is the > > > proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to use that, > > > people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > forwarding, and > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle th= e > multi- > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the > draft has > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft i= s > still > > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > > To: Robert Raszuk >; > > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active= - > active > > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over differen= t > > > subnet > > > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so > hosts can > > have single default out. > > > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides > skip > > those. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > R. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > -- > > --- > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 11 06:59:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6D31AD05F; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:59:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBvyw7zIPL_S; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0128.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.128]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C22B31AD060; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1713.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:59:31 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0325.003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:59:31 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Antoni Przygienda , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCsjGEeVQM2i90iRBt68ehqtc56OJqIAgAWn3qCAAWUGgIAAbgAAgABBkoCAACn0AIAAz6cAgAASeWA= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:59:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.10] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB1713; 5:4F2F27MO0rIkVQvpoPGHPcZBXNH3egACRz5LySqoghY/jK00Jgoloeeos5bREKgbzn+YFroMTZJslMR60MEc0K+Pna7ZmNwkyGoIcjvCvMU3btPP6HtqnTR8fu1JPKsG0pdM7uqDYko9/NToSqpHdw==; 24:OTWq/SnPIBAxaQlVWIxuHwwNz31MQG+LGhhgSXonEx1eJmLdE/9przGdby3tYStUONo1XnZ21s414Tz0LIeGTf4Llh/uXNcNH5Yz/l6ymzQ=; 20:MAOklecBP37CYDSbmBZ6s7u/3+rbffHSeAN8irN4k3bMSM5Ag237EHPZgZdZl80TOwZ7xGcbQPJrQsqlK9WYJA== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014)(37575265505322); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(520078)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; x-forefront-prvs: 0757EEBDCA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(13464003)(199003)(164054003)(24454002)(46584002)(377454003)(189002)(2900100001)(5001920100001)(101416001)(5001770100001)(189998001)(97736004)(81156007)(5003600100002)(5001960100002)(86362001)(77096005)(66066001)(5004730100002)(11100500001)(5002640100001)(33656002)(5007970100001)(10400500002)(54356999)(5008740100001)(50986999)(76176999)(106116001)(105586002)(87936001)(102836002)(40100003)(76576001)(122556002)(99286002)(19580405001)(74316001)(106356001)(19580395003)(93886004)(92566002)(15975445007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; H:BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Nov 2015 14:59:30.9606 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB1713 Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , "pim@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:59:37 -0000 If MHD is implemented in such a way that routers will see each other as PIM= /IGMP neighbors, and IGMP reports/leaves from H1 will be received by both R= 1 and R2 no matter how H1 sends them (e.g., EVPN all-active), then this is = no different from regular LAN case. R1 R2 \ / \ / \ / H1 If R1 and R2 cannot see each other on the "LAN", and the reports sent by H1= to R1 will not be seen by R2, then this is no different from p2p case. The= re is one caveat - if H1 was originally sending reports to R1 and then swit= ches to R2 (e.g. the hashing result changed), then H1 needs to send leaves = to R1 - otherwise it'll receive duplicate traffic until R1 times out the gr= oups. Jeffrey > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:43 AM > To: 'Antoni Przygienda' ; Toerless Eckert > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Robert Raszuk ; > IJsbrand Wijnands ; bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... >=20 > [+ PIM] >=20 > So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a standard > for MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing piece > for MHD is l3 mcast? >=20 > Jeffrey >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM > > To: Toerless Eckert > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand > Wijnands > > ; bier@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have the > > problem and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect DF. > > > > Do I miss anything ? > > > > thanks > > > > --- tony > > _____________________________________________ > > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and > intelligent > > behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid > > behavior." > > --- Dee Hock > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > > > To: Antoni Przygienda > > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand > Wijnands; > > > bier@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > Tony, > > > > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to be > > > used with BIER ? > > > > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific > > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > > > No standard approach AFAIK. > > > > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any form o= f > > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > > > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there is > > anything > > > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, > > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the > network > > > is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master > and > > > other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to > > the LAN > > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this > is > > the > > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > > multicast > > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers > through > > MC- > > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction > > traffic. In > > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. = I > > think > > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi- > > > homed scenario. > > > > > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is the > > > > proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to use tha= t, > > > > people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active- > standby > > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understandin= g: > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > forwarding, and > > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle > the > > multi- > > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD t= o > > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the > > draft has > > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft > is > > still > > > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > > > To: Robert Raszuk >; > > > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover > active- > > active > > > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > > > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over > different > > > > subnet > > > > > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so > > hosts can > > > have single default out. > > > > > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers > > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides > > skip > > > those. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > R. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 11 10:51:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9651B3808; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:51:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27vEQT2HRFI2; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8ADF1B3807; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:51:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6733; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447267887; x=1448477487; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=JPMSejSBFOUhQ0IDEmXzs+ZXgXzYE4M7nDEtpcy3f3M=; b=LogzKD7PH65qB5Z89D5Vb3nczas4CAsgenp6yp9FVIk1M1Y88sYGsybl iE01hdHd89TqxHU+Taqt2RXvVg37jMaYs4Ekf45rQ9YvezaJUcx0EWh8f 4gBwt5Zth9nYHOduk1125IDHMWFKrML5PmkIbcM03fgafusQzdxxb7WuF M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,277,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="49417571" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2015 18:51:27 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tABIpQTc018525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:51:26 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tABIpORN015294; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:51:24 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tABIpNGj015289; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:51:23 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:51:23 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Message-ID: <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , Antoni Przygienda , IJsbrand Wijnands , Haoweiguo , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:51:30 -0000 Maybe Tony can detail. In current IETF RFC/drafts, MHD is only used in the VPN context. AFAIK, we have so far not talked about BIER in l2 switched contexts. Of course, one could replace p2mp LSP (via mLDP) as used in EVPN with BIER, but i am unclear if thats what Tony is talking aout, and i also wouldn't see a problem doing this. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 01:42:50PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > [+ PIM] > > So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a standard for MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing piece for MHD is l3 mcast? > > Jeffrey > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM > > To: Toerless Eckert > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand Wijnands > > ; bier@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have the > > problem and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect DF. > > > > Do I miss anything ? > > > > thanks > > > > --- tony > > _____________________________________________ > > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent > > behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid > > behavior." > > --- Dee Hock > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > > > To: Antoni Przygienda > > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; > > > bier@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > Tony, > > > > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to be > > > used with BIER ? > > > > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific > > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > > > No standard approach AFAIK. > > > > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any form of > > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > > > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there is > > anything > > > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed network, > > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the network > > > is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router as master and > > > other routers as slave, only the master router can forward traffic to > > the LAN > > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, this is > > the > > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > > multicast > > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers through > > MC- > > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction > > traffic. In > > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the MC-LAG. I > > think > > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG multi- > > > homed scenario. > > > > > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is the > > > > proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to use that, > > > > people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or active-standby > > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > forwarding, and > > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to handle the > > multi- > > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using IGMP/MLD to > > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and the > > draft has > > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The draft is > > still > > > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > > > To: Robert Raszuk >; > > > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover active- > > active > > > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > > > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over different > > > > subnet > > > > > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used so > > hosts can > > > have single default out. > > > > > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and receivers > > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER slides > > skip > > > those. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > R. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 11 11:14:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6785D1B3875; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:14:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aPeEH-Q142w0; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52B2E1B387C; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:14:26 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-a1-564325c2739b Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 19.EB.26730.2C523465; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:25:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:14:24 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAWLHgIAAGc/wgACVxID//7c10IABQxIAgABWNoD//6/nYA== Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:14:24 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoO4hVecwgyunxS2WztjDZLF3+T02 ixcrOCxezbnDbPHl4U1mi6aFTcwWRy42sjiwe0z5vZHVo+XIW1aPJUt+Mnlcb7rK7rF74wKm ANYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsErozV688xFpz1rlixu429gfGAZRcjJ4eEgInEur/LmSFsMYkL99az dTFycQgJHGGU+DxvOyOEs5xRYu+UXUwgVWwCFhKXvz0F6xARiJB4uuAsO0gRs8A6RompH/6A FQkLKEsc+3kfqkhFYvOXm6wQdpZEw6ml7CA2i4CqxM6NM8FsXgFfiZmnFzBDbJvDInHobQMj SIJTQF+iff9GMJsR6L7vp9aALWAWEJe49WQ+E8TdAhJL9pyH+kFU4uXjf6wQtpLEpKXnWCHq dSQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZYrGgxMmZT1gmMIrNQjJ2FpKWWUhaZiFpWcDIsoqRo7Q4tSw33chw EyMw8o5JsDnuYFzwyfIQowAHoxIPbwGbU5gQa2JZcWXuIUYJDmYlEd7Vk5zDhHhTEiurUovy 44tKc1KLDzFKc7AoifPOm3E/VEggPbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cCYc3FqTfMek3ksUzeGewhk ye5/otq2bGZxGKfuSu2JizZ3p+us5XM4GKt44fF70/sKJpsd/f6Zq5h7Muuwxdxjf9NoE5WT /KOB5cm6A4VK1nafGZflL6lWTDI5NVFJ2n+XQOzDqwrehe2eFmX//n89s9nGtOkxd/eSOVf2 964W07Q7tCjmD5cSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgD3CgliuAIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , "pim@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:14:29 -0000 MC-LAG is see used in L2 context mostly and it mostly implies LACP and ofte= n proprietary inter-chassis protocols as well.=20 MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any protocols= and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do not see each other o= n the same ether.=20 Yes, we are supposed to write something about eVPN using BIER (Ice, I forgo= t, who agreed to write something & do we add it to the MVPN draft simply ?)= . =20 EVPN will not have a MHD problem ;-) since=20 a) the EVPN running router will originate the PMSI for EVPN and have a BFE= R bit.=20 b) hosts behind the router will be managed by the EVPN multi-homing proce= dures (split-horizon and DF) which solve the problem even if the PMSI deliv= ers the frame to multiple routers homing a device on an ESI.=20 The problem exists only for PIM overlay over BIER (or other overlays witho= ut DF procedures).=20 So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is MHD'ed vi= a 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER domain as the mos= t generic problem. Observe that both routers will receive the traffic for s= ame G since both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that need to be= served. So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures (and pos= sibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffic may see = it again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER for its SHD d= evices and is DF for the G). Most people who don't deal with EVPN will hav= e probably trouble parsing that stuff ...=20 Now, whether the problem needs solving in its generality for IP S,G multica= st overlay (like EVPN did for L2) is something I have not much opinion on a= nd leave it to heavy-weights like Ice to argue ...=20 thanks=20 --- tony _____________________________________________ "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent = behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid beha= vior."=20 --- Dee Hock=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:51 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: Antoni Przygienda; Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; > bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... >=20 > Maybe Tony can detail. In current IETF RFC/drafts, MHD is only used in th= e > VPN context. > AFAIK, we have so far not talked about BIER in l2 switched contexts. Of > course, one could replace p2mp LSP (via mLDP) as used in EVPN with BIER, > but i am unclear if thats what Tony is talking aout, and i also wouldn't = see a > problem doing this. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 01:42:50PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > > [+ PIM] > > > > So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a standar= d > for MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing piece = for > MHD is l3 mcast? > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM > > > To: Toerless Eckert > > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand > > > Wijnands ; bier@ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have > > > the problem and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect DF= . > > > > > > Do I miss anything ? > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > --- tony > > > _____________________________________________ > > > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and > > > intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to > > > simple and stupid behavior." > > > --- Dee Hock > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > > > > To: Antoni Przygienda > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand > > > > Wijnands; bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > Tony, > > > > > > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to > > > > be used with BIER ? > > > > > > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific > > > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > > > > No standard approach AFAIK. > > > > > > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any > > > > form of > > > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > > > > > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there > > > > is > > > anything > > > > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > > > > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed > > > > > network, > > > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the > > > > network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router > > > > as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can > > > > forward traffic to > > > the LAN > > > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, > > > > this is > > > the > > > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > > > multicast > > > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers > > > > through > > > MC- > > > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction > > > traffic. In > > > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the > > > > MC-LAG. I > > > think > > > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG > > > > multi- homed scenario. > > > > > > > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is > > > > > the proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to > > > > > use that, people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or > > > > > active-standby > > > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understand= ing: > > > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > > forwarding, and > > > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to > > > > handle the > > > multi- > > > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using > > > > > IGMP/MLD to > > > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and > > > > the > > > draft has > > > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The > > > > draft is > > > still > > > > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > > > > To: Robert Raszuk >; > > > > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover > > > > > active- > > > active > > > > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > > > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > > > > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > > > > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over > > > > > different subnet > > > > > > > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used > > > > > so > > > hosts can > > > > have single default out. > > > > > > > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and > > > > > receivers > > > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER > > > > slides > > > skip > > > > those. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > R. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > --- > > > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com >=20 > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 11 11:59:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664A21B397B; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UCEkqOdHQ2w4; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com (mail-ig0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13E4E1B397D; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by igbhv6 with SMTP id hv6so28016727igb.0; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Kf8fmTDoyjHVYRSgiZ1NdIDv4X3kwUpT+RPBGKS/l70=; b=hZoee5wtVYuvtg0KvaYm+fEZ4fCiKuVtEheXjMuMBUMzBmNOnnADhmX/CR9b6zPKr7 bVSuAEoQsb7EdC6ZWEQWkbR8zBuX9Z8+lK//ibylaOaefYeEjwfB6wtWuhzkYpiwq2zJ +DMoKacJ+xsfufSOHrmMxZh0PUNMZpDR8q7NKOnunQPvl5ktQvraEUQAPYZ4ziaQ66V3 GRRTIpeOWFNr/dKAG8uqg5wp6y9dCbFfkfyU6tpyhfKZ7MqjP+ztwVS44Pl6X7L+h1vW m4yyVDNqodEz72+eZXyZ2y3ehLEjSC8wTBCM01crwwWvkmYiJF+uG1o8CHM1zaa/ddZd XbcA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.1.112 with SMTP id 16mr1821546igl.25.1447271948492; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.27.134 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:08 -0800 Message-ID: From: Tony Przygienda To: Antoni Przygienda Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd76f3e6226da05244942d9 Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:59:13 -0000 --047d7bd76f3e6226da05244942d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having thought about it a bit, the src address on the frame should be enough to serve as split horizon (absent NAT'ing) and a MHD device should drop any frame originating @ any of its interface addresses (unless I missed something here). On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Antoni Przygienda < antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com> wrote: > MC-LAG is see used in L2 context mostly and it mostly implies LACP and > often proprietary inter-chassis protocols as well. > > MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any > protocols and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do not see > each other on the same ether. > > Yes, we are supposed to write something about eVPN using BIER (Ice, I > forgot, who agreed to write something & do we add it to the MVPN draft > simply ?). > EVPN will not have a MHD problem ;-) since > a) the EVPN running router will originate the PMSI for EVPN and > have a BFER bit. > b) hosts behind the router will be managed by the EVPN > multi-homing procedures (split-horizon and DF) which solve the problem ev= en > if the PMSI delivers the frame to multiple routers homing a device on an > ESI. > > The problem exists only for PIM overlay over BIER (or other overlays > without DF procedures). > > So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is MHD'ed > via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER domain as the > most generic problem. Observe that both routers will receive the traffic > for same G since both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that nee= d > to be served. So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures > (and possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffi= c > may see it again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER for > its SHD devices and is DF for the G). Most people who don't deal with EV= PN > will have probably trouble parsing that stuff ... > > Now, whether the problem needs solving in its generality for IP S,G > multicast overlay (like EVPN did for L2) is something I have not much > opinion on and leave it to heavy-weights like Ice to argue ... > > thanks > > --- tony > _____________________________________________ > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligen= t > behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid > behavior." > --- Dee Hock > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:51 AM > > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > Cc: Antoni Przygienda; Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; > > bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Maybe Tony can detail. In current IETF RFC/drafts, MHD is only used in > the > > VPN context. > > AFAIK, we have so far not talked about BIER in l2 switched contexts. Of > > course, one could replace p2mp LSP (via mLDP) as used in EVPN with BIER= , > > but i am unclear if thats what Tony is talking aout, and i also wouldn'= t > see a > > problem doing this. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 01:42:50PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote= : > > > [+ PIM] > > > > > > So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a > standard > > for MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing piec= e > for > > MHD is l3 mcast? > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM > > > > To: Toerless Eckert > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > > ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand > > > > Wijnands ; bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have > > > > the problem and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect > DF. > > > > > > > > Do I miss anything ? > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > _____________________________________________ > > > > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and > > > > intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to > > > > simple and stupid behavior." > > > > --- Dee Hock > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > > > > > To: Antoni Przygienda > > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand > > > > > Wijnands; bier@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > Tony, > > > > > > > > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG t= o > > > > > be used with BIER ? > > > > > > > > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specifi= c > > > > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > > > > > No standard approach AFAIK. > > > > > > > > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any > > > > > form of > > > > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > > > > > > > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think ther= e > > > > > is > > > > anything > > > > > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote= : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed > > > > > > network, > > > > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the > > > > > network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one route= r > > > > > as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can > > > > > forward traffic to > > > > the LAN > > > > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, > > > > > this is > > > > the > > > > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > > > > multicast > > > > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers > > > > > through > > > > MC- > > > > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink directio= n > > > > traffic. In > > > > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the > > > > > MC-LAG. I > > > > think > > > > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG > > > > > multi- homed scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is > > > > > > the proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to > > > > > > use that, people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > > > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or > > > > > > active-standby > > > > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my > understanding: > > > > > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > > > forwarding, and > > > > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to > > > > > handle the > > > > multi- > > > > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using > > > > > > IGMP/MLD to > > > > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and > > > > > the > > > > draft has > > > > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The > > > > > draft is > > > > still > > > > > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweigu= o > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > > > > > To: Robert Raszuk >= ; > > > > > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover > > > > > > active- > > > > active > > > > > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > > > > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > > > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > > > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > > > > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types o= f > > > > > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over > > > > > > different subnet > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used > > > > > > so > > > > hosts can > > > > > have single default out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and > > > > > > receivers > > > > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER > > > > > slides > > > > skip > > > > > those. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > --- > > > > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > > > -- > > --- > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --=20 *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr= oduce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky --047d7bd76f3e6226da05244942d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having thought about it a bit, the src address on the fram= e should be enough to serve as split horizon (absent NAT'ing) and a MHD= device should drop any frame originating @ any of its interface addresses = (unless I missed something here).=C2=A0
On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Antoni Przygi= enda <antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com> wrote:
MC-LAG is see used in L2 context mostly and= it mostly implies LACP and often proprietary inter-chassis protocols as we= ll.

MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any protocols= and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do not see each other o= n the same ether.

Yes, we are supposed to write something about eVPN using BIER (Ice, I forgo= t, who agreed to write something & do we add it to the MVPN draft simpl= y ?).
EVPN will not have a MHD problem ;-) since
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a) the EVPN running router will originate the P= MSI for EVPN and have a BFER bit.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 b)=C2=A0 hosts behind the router will be manage= d by the EVPN multi-homing procedures (split-horizon and DF) which solve th= e problem even if the PMSI delivers the frame to multiple routers homing a = device on an ESI.

The problem=C2=A0 exists only for PIM overlay over BIER (or other overlays = without DF procedures).

So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is MHD&#= 39;ed via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER domain as= the most generic problem. Observe that both routers will receive the traff= ic for same G since both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that ne= ed to be served. So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures = (and possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffic = may see it again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER f= or its SHD devices and is DF for the G).=C2=A0 Most people who don't de= al with EVPN will have probably trouble parsing that stuff ...

Now, whether the problem needs solving in its generality for IP S,G multica= st overlay (like EVPN did for L2) is something I have not much opinion on a= nd leave it to heavy-weights like Ice to argue ...

thanks

--- tony
_____________________________________________
"Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelli= gent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid= behavior."
--- Dee Hock


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:ecke= rt@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10= :51 AM
> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> Cc: Antoni Przygienda; = Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands;
> bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...
>
> Maybe Tony can detail. In current IETF RFC/drafts, MHD is only used in= the
> VPN context.
> AFAIK, we have so far not talked about BIER in l2 switched contexts. O= f
> course, one could replace p2mp LSP (via mLDP) as used in EVPN with BIE= R,
> but i am unclear if thats what Tony is talking aout, and i also wouldn= 't see a
> problem doing this.
>
> Cheers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 01:42:50PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrot= e:
> > [+ PIM]
> >
> > So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a s= tandard
> for MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing pie= ce for
> MHD is l3 mcast?
> >
> > Jeffrey
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM
> > > To: Toerless Eckert <= eckert@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Haoweiguo <ha= oweiguo@huawei.com>; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> > > <zzhang@juniper.net= >; Robert Raszuk <robert@ras= zuk.net>; IJsbrand
> > > Wijnands <ice@cisco.com<= /a>>; bier@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ...
> > >
> > > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD.=C2=A0 We= have MHD, we have
> > > the problem and we need=C2=A0 a protocol between the two hom= es to elect DF.
> > >
> > > Do I miss anything ?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > --- tony
> > > _____________________________________________
> > > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to comp= lex and
> > > intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give ris= e to
> > > simple and stupid behavior."
> > > --- Dee Hock
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM
> > > > To: Antoni Przygienda
> > > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; = IJsbrand
> > > > Wijnands; bier@ietf.or= g
> > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...
> > > >
> > > > Tony,
> > > >
> > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagin= e MC-LAG to
> > > > be used with BIER ?
> > > >
> > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vend= or specific
> > > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis imple= mentation.
> > > > No standard approach AFAIK.
> > > >
> > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also support= ing any
> > > > form of
> > > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific appro= aches.
> > > >
> > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don= 9;t think there
> > > > is
> > > anything
> > > > we could/should define about it in IETF.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygi= enda wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Jeffrey,
> > > > >
> > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi= -homed
> > > > > network,
> > > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed netw= ork, the
> > > > network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select= one router
> > > > as master and other routers as slave, only the master r= outer can
> > > > forward traffic to
> > > the LAN
> > > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF e= lection,
> > > > this is
> > > the
> > > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. Howev= er, if a
> > > multicast
> > > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicas= t routers
> > > > through
> > > MC-
> > > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplin= k direction
> > > traffic. In
> > > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF electio= n for the
> > > > MC-LAG. I
> > > think
> > > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the = MC-LAG
> > > > multi- homed scenario.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as = well.=C2=A0 MHD is
> > > > > the proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I = don't like to
> > > > > use that, people see LACP immediately ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My two cents.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > weiguo
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08
> > > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org= <mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ...
> > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-activ= e or
> > > > > active-standby
> > > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is m= y understanding:
> > > > >
> > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast ov= erlay, bier
> > > forwarding, and
> > > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay= 9;s job to
> > > > handle the
> > > multi-
> > > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other thin= gs.
> > > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered = from using
> > > > > IGMP/MLD to
> > > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER d= omain and
> > > > the
> > > draft has
> > > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of B= IER. The
> > > > draft is
> > > still
> > > > applicable if BIER had never happened.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeffrey
> > > > >
> > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM
> > > > > To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>;
> > > > > IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com<mailto:ice@cisco= .com>>
> > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org= <mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER a= lso should cover
> > > > > active-
> > > active
> > > > and active-standby access scenarios.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > weiguo
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk
> > > > > [robert@raszu= k.net]
> > > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36
> > > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands
> > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org= <mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> > > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ...
> > > > >
> > > > > Ice,
> > > > >
> > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two = major types of
> > > > multihomed deployments in production networks:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect t= o CEs over
> > > > > different subnet
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but = VRRP is used
> > > > > so
> > > hosts can
> > > > have single default out.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast send= ers and
> > > > > receivers
> > > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that mo= st BIER
> > > > slides
> > > skip
> > > > those.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > R.
> > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > > BIER@ietf.org=
> > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/bier
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ---
> > > > Toerless Eckert, ec= kert@cisco.com
>
> --
> ---
> Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com<= /a>

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



--
=
We=E2=80=99ve heard= that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete w= orks of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.=
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
--047d7bd76f3e6226da05244942d9-- From nobody Wed Nov 11 12:00:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F63C1B398D; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:00:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NF4kWhyhxgeT; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0796.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:796]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B9F41B398C; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1713.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:59:52 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0325.003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:59:52 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Antoni Przygienda , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCsjGEeVQM2i90iRBt68ehqtc56OJqIAgAWn3qCAAWUGgIAAbgAAgABBkoCAACn0AIAAz6cAgABW4oCAAAZuAIAAB3iQ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:59:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.10] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB1713; 5:od4J7yLOM+qkXm7D+kGjJGndOu06Nxuj8898lZ1ZukXuOopPAp8/yo+ebEqeU5lpd9t0tR1hWeJAydzvKTigbtZ7e2McvVja9H0oB3mcn0wCnAgz8WeRg00JmnW4+PZXdNLt26t9f9aDJslO0A2IYg==; 24:Rmx9Ml3X9vvGFfUjZk3HCFMsM3Ip2mVNF/6vE0iy5iGpIPG4KMpkSERsC9BdQEPamSV3k1k3jifbRe6u38zeUeEiutVrztEPpf3lUny1T5k=; 20:+LNY2UqYtQRh5B6SEPxEKY4PVLtobznaVwQ1D0Ra0GLzKwjjHNN18WFCFdocRAAw6ON/WqFWdyiBo7045WfOjg== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014)(37575265505322); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(520078)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; x-forefront-prvs: 0757EEBDCA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(13464003)(199003)(164054003)(24454002)(377454003)(46584002)(189002)(2950100001)(5001920100001)(2900100001)(101416001)(189998001)(97736004)(5001770100001)(81156007)(5003600100002)(5001960100002)(77096005)(5004730100002)(66066001)(5002640100001)(11100500001)(33656002)(5007970100001)(86362001)(10400500002)(5008740100001)(50986999)(76176999)(106116001)(105586002)(87936001)(54356999)(102836002)(40100003)(76576001)(99286002)(122556002)(19580405001)(74316001)(19580395003)(106356001)(93886004)(15975445007)(92566002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1713; H:BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Nov 2015 19:59:52.6278 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB1713 Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , "pim@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:00:01 -0000 Tony, We're converging :-) (see my earlier email on this). Please see below. > -----Original Message----- > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:14 PM > To: Toerless Eckert ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Robert Raszuk ; > IJsbrand Wijnands ; bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... >=20 > MC-LAG is see used in L2 context mostly and it mostly implies LACP and > often proprietary inter-chassis protocols as well. >=20 > MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any > protocols and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do not see > each other on the same ether. Right - if they do not see each other, it makes DR election difficult (if n= ot impossible). >=20 > Yes, we are supposed to write something about eVPN using BIER (Ice, I > forgot, who agreed to write something & do we add it to the MVPN draft > simply ?). > EVPN will not have a MHD problem ;-) since > a) the EVPN running router will originate the PMSI for EVPN and have > a BFER bit. > b) hosts behind the router will be managed by the EVPN multi-homing > procedures (split-horizon and DF) which solve the problem even if the PMS= I > delivers the frame to multiple routers homing a device on an ESI. Right - from L3 point of view, this is a regular LAN. >=20 > The problem exists only for PIM overlay over BIER (or other overlays > without DF procedures). >=20 > So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is MHD'ed > via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER domain as the > most generic problem. Right - but now you can replace BIER with PIM as well :-) > Observe that both routers will receive the traffic > for same G since both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that nee= d > to be served. But only one should have membership reports for a particular G or (S,G) - u= nless the host switches to another router when sending joins - as I mention= ed in the earlier email. > So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures > (and possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffi= c > may see it again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER for > its SHD devices and is DF for the G). Most people who don't deal with > EVPN will have probably trouble parsing that stuff ... I happen to be plugged in EVPN BUM stuff and can parse the above, but I bel= ieve this is where we want to solve it by PIM overlay - it's there already.= I understand that Ice's original intention is to simply run IGMP/MLD over = the virtual LAN (simulated by BIER) but for this kind of situation, it's be= tter to rely on PIM. Jeffrey >=20 > Now, whether the problem needs solving in its generality for IP S,G > multicast overlay (like EVPN did for L2) is something I have not much > opinion on and leave it to heavy-weights like Ice to argue ... >=20 > thanks >=20 > --- tony > _____________________________________________ > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligen= t > behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid > behavior." > --- Dee Hock >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:51 AM > > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > Cc: Antoni Przygienda; Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; > > bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Maybe Tony can detail. In current IETF RFC/drafts, MHD is only used in > the > > VPN context. > > AFAIK, we have so far not talked about BIER in l2 switched contexts. Of > > course, one could replace p2mp LSP (via mLDP) as used in EVPN with BIER= , > > but i am unclear if thats what Tony is talking aout, and i also wouldn'= t > see a > > problem doing this. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 01:42:50PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote= : > > > [+ PIM] > > > > > > So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a > standard > > for MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing piec= e > for > > MHD is l3 mcast? > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM > > > > To: Toerless Eckert > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > > ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand > > > > Wijnands ; bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have > > > > the problem and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect > DF. > > > > > > > > Do I miss anything ? > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > _____________________________________________ > > > > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and > > > > intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to > > > > simple and stupid behavior." > > > > --- Dee Hock > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > > > > > To: Antoni Przygienda > > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand > > > > > Wijnands; bier@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > Tony, > > > > > > > > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG t= o > > > > > be used with BIER ? > > > > > > > > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specifi= c > > > > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > > > > > No standard approach AFAIK. > > > > > > > > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any > > > > > form of > > > > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > > > > > > > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think ther= e > > > > > is > > > > anything > > > > > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote= : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed > > > > > > network, > > > > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the > > > > > network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one route= r > > > > > as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can > > > > > forward traffic to > > > > the LAN > > > > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, > > > > > this is > > > > the > > > > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > > > > multicast > > > > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers > > > > > through > > > > MC- > > > > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink directio= n > > > > traffic. In > > > > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the > > > > > MC-LAG. I > > > > think > > > > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG > > > > > multi- homed scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is > > > > > > the proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to > > > > > > use that, people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > > > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or > > > > > > active-standby > > > > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my > understanding: > > > > > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > > > forwarding, and > > > > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to > > > > > handle the > > > > multi- > > > > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using > > > > > > IGMP/MLD to > > > > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and > > > > > the > > > > draft has > > > > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The > > > > > draft is > > > > still > > > > > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweigu= o > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > > > > > To: Robert Raszuk >= ; > > > > > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover > > > > > > active- > > > > active > > > > > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > > > > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > > > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > > > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > > > > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types o= f > > > > > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over > > > > > > different subnet > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used > > > > > > so > > > > hosts can > > > > > have single default out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and > > > > > > receivers > > > > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER > > > > > slides > > > > skip > > > > > those. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > --- > > > > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > > > -- > > --- > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 11 12:01:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88421B3A1C; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:00:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6s63sWh75rOT; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0724.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:724]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1897D1B39DF; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1716.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:00:45 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0325.003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:00:45 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Tony Przygienda , Antoni Przygienda Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCsjGEeVQM2i90iRBt68ehqtc56OJqIAgAWn3qCAAWUGgIAAbgAAgABBkoCAACn0AIAAz6cAgABW4oCAAAZuAIAADIAAgAAAYEA= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:00:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=zzhang@juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.10] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB1716; 5:EKZ5QqDX3+u2qoaIXK5dTxb+3an7HZQmKAOWg+vilO7XmKuInmxNoE/tyrqcW2N9fIdmFf2xX7vCxnwGmo1T/ApWFbeoDb01APrDe573yBWvl7R6pgHBKUBw9qH1QxbfNFHpehKyqXv3ypmmHl4Oyg==; 24:efXhnjDYycqF9FjK9TuO6v1YMJW7iZb7k6XRwsSL2cOV4lfPD7WCZLvrZRgF4e5JBNNlgTco3Nt5+zODjxUw6x0X8Zek8w+YcGKFD69I8hk=; 20:PT1f1Ji5NUa376uMDobvI/a3ElLhefX8puRB9eHKD48cxVPyfsDwIEll5haXgiX7sFVZ+UM5W+s68odfXZ7KrA== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1716; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(138986009662008)(95692535739014)(108003899814671)(37575265505322); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(520078)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1716; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1716; x-forefront-prvs: 0757EEBDCA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(46584002)(199003)(13464003)(164054003)(377454003)(189002)(24454002)(50986999)(40100003)(74316001)(2950100001)(101416001)(102836002)(15975445007)(76176999)(54356999)(2900100001)(19625215002)(77096005)(86362001)(122556002)(105586002)(99286002)(93886004)(106116001)(106356001)(19617315012)(16236675004)(19609705001)(5002640100001)(5003600100002)(19580395003)(19580405001)(33656002)(76576001)(10400500002)(19300405004)(92566002)(11100500001)(81156007)(5001770100001)(97736004)(66066001)(5001960100002)(189998001)(5001920100001)(5008740100001)(87936001)(5004730100002)(5007970100001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB1716; H:BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BLUPR0501MB1715DF64BDDE469F3CBDCD98D4130BLUPR0501MB1715_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Nov 2015 20:00:45.8644 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB1716 Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands , Haoweiguo , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfpPVZS4on8W; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23F9B1B395D; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:05:51 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-fe-564331ce093b Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E3.DE.26730.EC133465; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:17:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:05:49 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Tony Przygienda Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAWLHgIAAGc/wgACVxID//7c10IABQxIAgABWNoD//6/nYIAAYwYAgAAAdID//6xc4A== Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:05:48 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB132ED@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB132EDeusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn+45Q+cwg4Mv1S2WztjDZLF3+T02 ixcrOCxezbnDbPHl4U1mi6aFTcwWux9sZLE4crGRxYHDY8rvjaweO2fdZfdoOfKW1WPJkp9M HtebrrJ77N64gCmALYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr4/aJ34wFn/qZKx5MaGBqYNzTytzFyMkhIWAi 8XXubUYIW0ziwr31bF2MXBxCAkcYJbZOesoM4SxnlOh9fogVpIpNwELi8renYN0iAtESS6fe BetmFrjEKPFtcyyILSygLHHs532oGhWJzV9uskLYdRJzd70E2sDBwSKgKnFqVgRImFfAV2Ji 3x12iF3/WCVu7jvJBJLgFEiUWPnrJdgcRqDrvp9awwSxS1zi1pP5TBBXC0gs2XMe6htRiZeP /7FC2EoSk5aeY4Woz5e4+KybEWKZoMTJmU9YJjCKzkIyahaSsllIymYBncosoCmxfpc+RImi xJTuh+wQtoZE65y57MjiCxjZVzFylBanluWmGxluYgTG7jEJNscdjAs+WR5iFOBgVOLhLWBz ChNiTSwrrsw9xCjBwawkwhswzzlMiDclsbIqtSg/vqg0J7X4EKM0B4uSOO+8GfdDhQTSE0tS s1NTC1KLYLJMHJxSDYxW/EHcwir85xsKbia+7owzYGN/XXZswx6fZt6zIsv0G6Zt+uHTpNqu ZpE4zyrkiQpLheapps+znl1mV3t5t/inUmbsn03xlo7fDM4vrL/hyxgXlTqXy0dn1Zw5Dv8X bWMX8KjaZFr5KJdNX+OlHt9Cj+i+XWFbXk5hXXxzytY3B98+YOoOqVViKc5INNRiLipOBABM jDw/2QIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands , Haoweiguo , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2261A0196; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:16:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Is8OJv3Bi1u; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAD871A0195; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:16:29 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-5e-5643406bdb73 Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id CC.F0.32596.B6043465; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:19:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:16:28 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAWLHgIAAGc/wgACVxID//7c10IABQxIAgABWNoD//6/nYIAAYzsA//+vy3A= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:16:26 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1331C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrMIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoG62g3OYweWnUhZLZ+xhsti7/B6b xYsVHBav5txhtvjy8CazRdPCJmaLIxcbWRzYPab83sjq0XLkLavHkiU/mTyuN11l99i9cQFT AGsUl01Kak5mWWqRvl0CV8bGfxeYCp4JVxx5/YClgXENfxcjJ4eEgIlE87pz7BC2mMSFe+vZ uhi5OIQEjjBK7Gu8yAqSEBJYzijR1SgBYrMJWEhc/vaUGcQWEYiQ+LWkGayBWWADo0Tjwucs IAlhAWWJYz/vQxWpSGz+cpMVwi6TOL9uFhuIzSKgKtHyaQVYDa+Ar8T3luusEJu3s0rcvT0F qIiDg1MgUWLhmTKQGkag676fWsMEYjMLiEvcejKfCeJqAYkle84zQ9iiEi8f/2OFsJUkJi09 xwpRryOxYPcnNghbW2LZwtdQewUlTs58wjKBUWwWkrGzkLTMQtIyC0nLAkaWVYwcpcWpZbnp RgabGIFRd0yCTXcH456XlocYBTgYlXh4C9icwoRYE8uKK3MPMUpwMCuJ8AbMcw4T4k1JrKxK LcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkzrt/yf1QIYH0xJLU7NTUgtQimCwTB6dUA+PGHLfJj5d7ZJ+uaOU0 W+a2l7fdvKLtaVrByq2Xt4RHGBjncq3ZUrY954Or+vzd5/RkAxZWS0RIH4m67pResLOG/8vU 9VELJrsrHZvxt8ok0FHktlJPcF3ircyUKV2S73VKFuTsYzNnY5FMTQkvz9R/KqA3qXRG5sFQ jcubGvaf2Pn6y1RFLiWW4oxEQy3mouJEAKqcSdS2AgAA Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:16:31 -0000 > > MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any > > protocols and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do not > > see each other on the same ether. >=20 > Right - if they do not see each other, it makes DR election difficult (if= not > impossible). [Tony saiz:] well, both routers have to run _something_ as peers, BGP/PIM= /whatever in which they can exchange the knowledge that they MHD ...=20 > > procedures (split-horizon and DF) which solve the problem even if the > > PMSI delivers the frame to multiple routers homing a device on an ESI. >=20 > Right - from L3 point of view, this is a regular LAN. [Tony saiz:] +1 > > So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is > > MHD'ed via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER > > domain as the most generic problem. >=20 > Right - but now you can replace BIER with PIM as well :-) [Tony saiz:] +1 > > Observe that both routers will receive the traffic for same G since > > both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that need to be > > served. >=20 > But only one should have membership reports for a particular G or (S,G) - > unless the host switches to another router when sending joins - as I > mentioned in the earlier email. [Tony saiz:] I see. If it's the MHD device responsibility to send the JOI= N or IGMP only on a single link, we don't need split-horizon. That of cours= e will imply significant delay on multicasdt on link failure and I would ha= ve to think whether the MHD will even know which links form a 'multi-homing= -group' (pretty much equivalent of ESI). In EVPN this is configured on the= PE routers.=20 > > So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures (and > > possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffic > > may see it again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER > > for its SHD devices and is DF for the G). Most people who don't deal > > with EVPN will have probably trouble parsing that stuff ... >=20 > I happen to be plugged in EVPN BUM stuff and can parse the above, but I > believe this is where we want to solve it by PIM overlay - it's there alr= eady. I > understand that Ice's original intention is to simply run IGMP/MLD over t= he > virtual LAN (simulated by BIER) but for this kind of situation, it's bett= er to rely > on PIM. [Tony saiz:] Mandating PIM is a pretty heavy hammer to solve the problem if= you ask me ...=20 -- tony=20 From nobody Wed Nov 11 12:21:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B2A1A1A56; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:21:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n_Y8y4cc0485; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F3E91A1A3B; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10832; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447273257; x=1448482857; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=xvOzHx0DoM1XDYGCyg82fFNZgu32r/6nWAp4m8DhKUs=; b=e9hDYTgDeXZ10zvfDrBNFBlpacHXaSeZ0wrYGEDcfMlgxgX06gH/SFa0 EmRD9P3YV3KZTGUGHVW1cJe0XoMVdPOy6iLbnPoxwUnzbnmGeBLzYvBHT GOwNpcXW/yTOwW3FkiA1W9dskK3IH8sD+TFK3QmdEfBw+JL+yE1sqjPAk 8=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,277,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="48791257" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2015 20:20:56 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tABKKuRG024287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:20:56 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tABKKtQr020062; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:20:55 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tABKKtFb020061; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:20:55 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:20:55 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Antoni Przygienda Message-ID: <20151111202055.GA17696@cisco.com> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:21:00 -0000 On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 07:14:24PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > MC-LAG is see used in L2 context mostly and it mostly implies LACP and often proprietary inter-chassis protocols as well. > MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any protocols and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do not see each other on the same ether. Ok, my understand was exactly the opposite. MHD in IETF was just EVPN == L2, MC-LAG == any service (L2/L3 via multi-chassis, vendor specific). > Yes, we are supposed to write something about eVPN using BIER (Ice, I forgot, who agreed to write something & do we add it to the MVPN draft simply ?). Ok, so thats not BIER end-to-end in EVPN, but BIER to replace eg: mLDP for p2mp LSPs in EVPN. That should be just fine. RFC7432 mentions RSVP-TE P2MP, so the BGP signaling should already allow to know the necessary BFER. > EVPN will not have a MHD problem ;-) since > a) the EVPN running router will originate the PMSI for EVPN and have a BFER bit. > b) hosts behind the router will be managed by the EVPN multi-homing procedures (split-horizon and DF) which solve the problem even if the PMSI delivers the frame to multiple routers homing a device on an ESI. Right. > The problem exists only for PIM overlay over BIER (or other overlays without DF procedures). > > So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is MHD'ed via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER domain as the most generic problem. Observe that both routers will receive the traffic for same G since both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that need to be served. So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures (and possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffic may see it again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER for its SHD devices and is DF for the G). Most people who don't deal with EVPN will have probably trouble parsing that stuff ... With EVPN out of the picture, there seems to be no standard for MHD MC-LAG, so nothing we can do in the IETF about it IMHO. > Now, whether the problem needs solving in its generality for IP S,G multicast overlay (like EVPN did for L2) is something I have not much opinion on and leave it to heavy-weights like Ice to argue ... Definitely want to support BIER with multi-chassis. But its all vendor/platform proprietary work, nothing AFAIK that could be standardized. Thanks Toerless > > thanks > > --- tony > _____________________________________________ > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid behavior." > --- Dee Hock > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:51 AM > > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > Cc: Antoni Przygienda; Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; > > bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Maybe Tony can detail. In current IETF RFC/drafts, MHD is only used in the > > VPN context. > > AFAIK, we have so far not talked about BIER in l2 switched contexts. Of > > course, one could replace p2mp LSP (via mLDP) as used in EVPN with BIER, > > but i am unclear if thats what Tony is talking aout, and i also wouldn't see a > > problem doing this. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 01:42:50PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > > > [+ PIM] > > > > > > So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a standard > > for MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing piece for > > MHD is l3 mcast? > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM > > > > To: Toerless Eckert > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > > ; Robert Raszuk ; IJsbrand > > > > Wijnands ; bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have > > > > the problem and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect DF. > > > > > > > > Do I miss anything ? > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > _____________________________________________ > > > > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and > > > > intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to > > > > simple and stupid behavior." > > > > --- Dee Hock > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > > > > > To: Antoni Przygienda > > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand > > > > > Wijnands; bier@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > Tony, > > > > > > > > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to > > > > > be used with BIER ? > > > > > > > > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific > > > > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > > > > > No standard approach AFAIK. > > > > > > > > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any > > > > > form of > > > > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > > > > > > > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there > > > > > is > > > > anything > > > > > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed > > > > > > network, > > > > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the > > > > > network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router > > > > > as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can > > > > > forward traffic to > > > > the LAN > > > > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, > > > > > this is > > > > the > > > > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > > > > multicast > > > > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers > > > > > through > > > > MC- > > > > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction > > > > traffic. In > > > > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the > > > > > MC-LAG. I > > > > think > > > > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG > > > > > multi- homed scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is > > > > > > the proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to > > > > > > use that, people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > > > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or > > > > > > active-standby > > > > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > > > forwarding, and > > > > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to > > > > > handle the > > > > multi- > > > > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using > > > > > > IGMP/MLD to > > > > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and > > > > > the > > > > draft has > > > > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The > > > > > draft is > > > > still > > > > > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > > > > > To: Robert Raszuk >; > > > > > > IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover > > > > > > active- > > > > active > > > > > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > > > > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > > > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > > > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > > > > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > > > > > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over > > > > > > different subnet > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used > > > > > > so > > > > hosts can > > > > > have single default out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and > > > > > > receivers > > > > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER > > > > > slides > > > > skip > > > > > those. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > --- > > > > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > > > -- > > --- > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 11 12:32:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E0F1A6EE0; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:31:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2G5aXyZ45gAu; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0145.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF2A41A1C04; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1713.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:31:53 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0325.003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:31:53 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Antoni Przygienda , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... 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X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:31:59 -0000 Please see zzh> below. > -----Original Message----- > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 3:16 PM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Toerless Eckert > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand Wijnands > ; pim@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... >=20 > > > MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any > > > protocols and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do not > > > see each other on the same ether. > > > > Right - if they do not see each other, it makes DR election difficult > (if not > > impossible). >=20 > [Tony saiz:] well, both routers have to run _something_ as peers, > BGP/PIM/whatever in which they can exchange the knowledge that they MHD .= .. Zzh> That may be considered as a heavy hammer, too :-) >=20 > > > procedures (split-horizon and DF) which solve the problem even if the > > > PMSI delivers the frame to multiple routers homing a device on an ESI= . > > > > Right - from L3 point of view, this is a regular LAN. >=20 > [Tony saiz:] +1 >=20 > > > So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is > > > MHD'ed via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER > > > domain as the most generic problem. > > > > Right - but now you can replace BIER with PIM as well :-) >=20 > [Tony saiz:] +1 >=20 > > > Observe that both routers will receive the traffic for same G since > > > both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that need to be > > > served. > > > > But only one should have membership reports for a particular G or (S,G) > - > > unless the host switches to another router when sending joins - as I > > mentioned in the earlier email. >=20 > [Tony saiz:] I see. If it's the MHD device responsibility to send the > JOIN or IGMP only on a single link, we don't need split-horizon. That of > course will imply significant delay on multicasdt on link failure and I > would have to think whether the MHD will even know which links form a > 'multi-homing-group' (pretty much equivalent of ESI). In EVPN this is > configured on the PE routers. My understanding is that in LAG case, the MHD device only sends traffic (da= ta or control) out of one interface. In PIM, a router can send joins to both upstream routers (MoFRR), but it is= this router's job to discard duplicate traffic, not the upstream router's = job. >=20 > > > So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures (and > > > possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffic > > > may see it again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER > > > for its SHD devices and is DF for the G). Most people who don't deal > > > with EVPN will have probably trouble parsing that stuff ... > > > > I happen to be plugged in EVPN BUM stuff and can parse the above, but I > > believe this is where we want to solve it by PIM overlay - it's there > already. I > > understand that Ice's original intention is to simply run IGMP/MLD over > the > > virtual LAN (simulated by BIER) but for this kind of situation, it's > better to rely > > on PIM. >=20 > [Tony saiz:] Mandating PIM is a pretty heavy hammer to solve the problem > if you ask me ... The EVPN procedure is also a heavy hammer :-) it involves BGP, identificati= on of each MH'ed Ethernet Segment, and additional forwarding semantics (a l= abel in the packet to identify the source segment, and forwarding logic to = discard the traffic if it is from the same segment). Jeffrey >=20 > -- tony From nobody Wed Nov 11 12:37:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F4E1A9145; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id drWxa7_bBIz2; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21BCD1A90C1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=15088; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447274252; x=1448483852; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=dOOofSIuOx6Ar3RX7FqU82Q4Jv6b7ptkHjTouJ2pIR8=; b=OadGrye9HoEdXW1qh20Oghj3izXPwazvNUr9nBXNJHDWpjjbSXerff48 Req4tJpsp28i9+qk9ISJcNQfxLDc1XFZSige16LRqpxO3FMltKsB3qm6P x16m+n0N/6gAd8PTlRLI7qpIM2j0AKNm5omoo0RsVzivmjsR+9N+ga5Fw o=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,277,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="207224098" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2015 20:37:31 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tABKbUSn003082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:37:31 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tABKbU4X020881; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:30 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tABKbUl5020880; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:30 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Antoni Przygienda Message-ID: <20151111203730.GB17696@cisco.com> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB132ED@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB132ED@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:37:35 -0000 Below... On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 08:05:48PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > OK< so here I need referesh on IP multicast a tad (PIM joins). > > Assuming MHD host runs PIM: I thought RPF only checks whether packet arrived on one of the interfaces that the JOIN went out on (reverse-path). If we are MHD in most generic case, we???d need to PIM JOIN on both interfaces (otherwise multicast is not multi-homed) and with that RPF won???t work. Or do we assume MHD host will only join on one interface ? > > And worse, if host uses IGMP, does IGMP even do RPF ? Not that I ever saw that but again, I???m a real light-weight on traditional IP multicast ;-) > > thanks > > --- tony I thought the MHD definition was still L2, aka: the MHD device sees a single L2 etherchannel. That means it sens one PIM join and in general doesn't even have to care which link it goes to, and the traffic coming back could be from either interfaces. Thats the MHD case i think we can ignore because as said in my last email, its either EVPN (not an L3 service), or proprietary. If the two uplinks are L3, then what you are saying about sending joins out of both interfaces is what we do with MoFRR. MHD device will get traffic from both links and is eliminating duplicates. This case would be relevant to the DR/DF discussion because so far MoFRR is really only known to be used with PIM. No reson why it couldn't be used with IGMP/MLD though. No real changes either. Without MoFRR, you have two uplinks and use RPF selection to determine to which of the two links you want to send the PIM join, and thats the link you'll then get traffic from. If we want to get rid of PIM, we could do the same with IGMP except that there is no standard explaining how to do RPF for IGMP . There is draft-asaeda-pim-multiif-igmpmldproxy. I am not sure if Ice meant to replace PIM when the client behind the BFER is an actual router that can run PIM. I was reading Ice's proposal for DR/DF changes to apply to the case twhere the clients are really hosts, which means they do not need MoFRR, and do not have L3 redundant links. At most, we'd have servers connected via etherchannel, those would be "MHD", but they'd have to end up in a single logical BFER, and if thats multi-chassis then thats platform/vendor specific. Cheers Toerless > _____________________________________________ > ???Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid behavior.??? > --- Dee Hock > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 12:01 PM > To: Tony Przygienda; Antoni Przygienda > Cc: Toerless Eckert; Haoweiguo; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand Wijnands; pim@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > PIM RPF ??? > > From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:59 PM > To: Antoni Przygienda > > Cc: Toerless Eckert >; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >; Haoweiguo >; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand Wijnands >; pim@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > Having thought about it a bit, the src address on the frame should be enough to serve as split horizon (absent NAT'ing) and a MHD device should drop any frame originating @ any of its interface addresses (unless I missed something here). > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Antoni Przygienda > wrote: > MC-LAG is see used in L2 context mostly and it mostly implies LACP and often proprietary inter-chassis protocols as well. > > MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any protocols and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do not see each other on the same ether. > > Yes, we are supposed to write something about eVPN using BIER (Ice, I forgot, who agreed to write something & do we add it to the MVPN draft simply ?). > EVPN will not have a MHD problem ;-) since > a) the EVPN running router will originate the PMSI for EVPN and have a BFER bit. > b) hosts behind the router will be managed by the EVPN multi-homing procedures (split-horizon and DF) which solve the problem even if the PMSI delivers the frame to multiple routers homing a device on an ESI. > > The problem exists only for PIM overlay over BIER (or other overlays without DF procedures). > > So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is MHD'ed via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER domain as the most generic problem. Observe that both routers will receive the traffic for same G since both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that need to be served. So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures (and possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffic may see it again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER for its SHD devices and is DF for the G). Most people who don't deal with EVPN will have probably trouble parsing that stuff ... > > Now, whether the problem needs solving in its generality for IP S,G multicast overlay (like EVPN did for L2) is something I have not much opinion on and leave it to heavy-weights like Ice to argue ... > > thanks > > --- tony > _____________________________________________ > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid behavior." > --- Dee Hock > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:51 AM > > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > Cc: Antoni Przygienda; Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands; > > bier@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > Maybe Tony can detail. In current IETF RFC/drafts, MHD is only used in the > > VPN context. > > AFAIK, we have so far not talked about BIER in l2 switched contexts. Of > > course, one could replace p2mp LSP (via mLDP) as used in EVPN with BIER, > > but i am unclear if thats what Tony is talking aout, and i also wouldn't see a > > problem doing this. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 01:42:50PM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > > > [+ PIM] > > > > > > So what exactly is different between MC-LAG and MHD? Is there a standard > > for MHD (besides l3 mcast aspects)? Or is it that the only missing piece for > > MHD is l3 mcast? > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:17 PM > > > > To: Toerless Eckert > > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo >; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > > >; Robert Raszuk >; IJsbrand > > > > Wijnands >; bier@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > That's why I don't use MC-LAG, we talk MHD. We have MHD, we have > > > > the problem and we need a protocol between the two homes to elect DF. > > > > > > > > Do I miss anything ? > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > _____________________________________________ > > > > "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and > > > > intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to > > > > simple and stupid behavior." > > > > --- Dee Hock > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 2:47 PM > > > > > To: Antoni Przygienda > > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand > > > > > Wijnands; bier@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > Tony, > > > > > > > > > > Can you elaborate (picture, packet flow) how you imagine MC-LAG to > > > > > be used with BIER ? > > > > > > > > > > The way i see it, MC-LAG is always implemented via vendor specific > > > > > cluster*uck oops: platform specific multi-chassis implementation. > > > > > No standard approach AFAIK. > > > > > > > > > > I see no problem (just annoyed developers) also supporting any > > > > > form of > > > > > BIER->IP multicast in the same vendor specific approaches. > > > > > > > > > > But given how its all vendor/platform specific i don't think there > > > > > is > > > > anything > > > > > we could/should define about it in IETF. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 06:52:22PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two multi-homing scenarios, one is multi-homed > > > > > > network, > > > > > another one is multi-homed device. For multi-homed network, the > > > > > network is a LAN, DR/DF mechanism can be used to select one router > > > > > as master and other routers as slave, only the master router can > > > > > forward traffic to > > > > the LAN > > > > > network, IGMP/MLD extension can be used for the DR/DF election, > > > > > this is > > > > the > > > > > focus of draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00. However, if a > > > > multicast > > > > > source or receiver is directly accessed to two multicast routers > > > > > through > > > > MC- > > > > > LAG, flow-based loadbalancing can be achieved for uplink direction > > > > traffic. In > > > > > this case, IGMP/MLD can't be used for DR/DF election for the > > > > > MC-LAG. I > > > > think > > > > > the new DR/DF election mechanism should also cover the MC-LAG > > > > > multi- homed scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Tony saiz:] yeah, pretty much what I sent out as well. MHD is > > > > > > the proper term for the scenario (or MC-LAG but I don't like to > > > > > > use that, people see LACP immediately ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [zzhang@juniper.net] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 23:08 > > > > > > To: Haoweiguo; Robert Raszuk; IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > Not exactly sure about the details of active-active or > > > > > > active-standby > > > > > scenarios and their relationship to BIER, but here is my understanding: > > > > > > > > > > > > - BIER architecture has three layers: multicast overlay, bier > > > > forwarding, and > > > > > routing underlay. It is really the multicast overlay's job to > > > > > handle the > > > > multi- > > > > > homing - be it PIM, IGMP/MLD, or BGP, or any other things. > > > > > > - While Ice's DR election draft was triggered from using > > > > > > IGMP/MLD to > > > > > replace PIM for multicast overlay signaling in a BIER domain and > > > > > the > > > > draft has > > > > > some BIER keywords in it, it is really independent of BIER. The > > > > > draft is > > > > still > > > > > applicable if BIER had never happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > > > > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoweiguo > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 7:39 PM > > > > > > To: Robert Raszuk >>; > > > > > > IJsbrand Wijnands >> > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Robert's comments. I think BIER also should cover > > > > > > active- > > > > active > > > > > and active-standby access scenarios. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > weiguo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Robert Raszuk > > > > > > [robert@raszuk.net] > > > > > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:36 > > > > > > To: IJsbrand Wijnands > > > > > > Cc: bier@ietf.org> > > > > > > Subject: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Ice, > > > > > > > > > > > > As we duscussed offline there are practically two major types of > > > > > multihomed deployments in production networks: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. True multihoming ... each edge router connect to CEs over > > > > > > different subnet > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Active/standby .. there is multiaccess lan but VRRP is used > > > > > > so > > > > hosts can > > > > > have single default out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now moreover beteen BIER domain and multicast senders and > > > > > > receivers > > > > > there will pretty much always CEs. I am worried that most BIER > > > > > slides > > > > skip > > > > > those. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > --- > > > > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > > > -- > > --- > > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > -- > We???ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true. > ???Robert Wilensky -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 11 12:42:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501491B2FE0; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:42:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7uEr3IVoqnEk; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0764.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:764]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C8C91B2E70; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.18) by BLUPR0501MB1713.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:42:26 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) by BLUPR0501MB1715.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.120.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0325.003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:42:26 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Antoni Przygienda , Tony Przygienda Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... 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id GXnzm6iO5bHJ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC1511B399E; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:48:05 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-a2-564347d25b7a Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 27.D2.32596.2D743465; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:51:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:48:04 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAWLHgIAAGc/wgACVxID//7c10IABQxIAgABWNoD//6/nYIAAaR2A//+s/BA= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:48:04 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1337E@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111202055.GA17696@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151111202055.GA17696@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoO5ld+cwg7sbuC2WztjDZLF3+T02 ixcrOCxezbnDbPHl4U1mi6aFTcwWRy42sjiwe0z5vZHVo+XIW1aPJUt+Mnlcb7rK7rF74wKm ANYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsEroz1t7rYCs6IVjRcfsHewNgm2MXIySEhYCIxcdVGZghbTOLCvfVs XYxcHEICRxgl9q94zgqSEBJYzihx+FQ+iM0mYCFx+dtTsAYRATWJsyd7wBqYBR4wSlz40ckI khAWUJY49vM+VJGKxOYvN1kh7DKJd7s3sYPYLAKqEiefdLOA2LwCvhLPZs9hhljWyirRctK5 i5GDg1NAX6LrMdhIRqDjvp9awwRiMwuIS9x6Mp8J4mgBiSV7zkM9ICrx8vE/VghbSWLS0nOs EPU6Egt2f2KDsLUlli18zQyxVlDi5MwnLBMYxWYhGTsLScssJC2zkLQsYGRZxchRWpxalptu ZLCJERhzxyTYdHcw7nlpeYhRgINRiYe3gM0pTIg1say4MvcQowQHs5IIb8A85zAh3pTEyqrU ovz4otKc1OJDjNIcLErivPuX3A8VEkhPLEnNTk0tSC2CyTJxcEo1MIa23Y6c/zR+T0fld7YP gY18x6cLl2beWa9X+fTB95vTZ62ZsHV73OdtdY1TdlbdUfRdpxvp9zlSZAObxXF7P+Vmnm3T zSdlL3YQ775/+2xU5vFEK2WGhTk7710o2FllufZR3OklE75rXc+8+Gv3ttgFWqdtXrY/cHFY /f7saZma7+G7n6y+v7hHiaU4I9FQi7moOBEALAuJB7UCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "bier@ietf.org" , Robert Raszuk , IJsbrand Wijnands , "Jeffrey \(Zhaohui\) Zhang" , Haoweiguo , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:48:08 -0000 >=20 > > Yes, we are supposed to write something about eVPN using BIER (Ice, I > forgot, who agreed to write something & do we add it to the MVPN draft > simply ?). >=20 > Ok, so thats not BIER end-to-end in EVPN, but BIER to replace eg: mLDP f= or > p2mp LSPs in EVPN. That should be just fine. RFC7432 mentions RSVP-TE > P2MP, so the BGP signaling should already allow to know the necessary BFE= R. [Tony saiz:] +1 > > So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is MHD'e= d > via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER domain as the= most > generic problem. Observe that both routers will receive the traffic for s= ame G > since both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that need to be > served. So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures (and > possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the traffic may= see it > again from ther other router who'll receive it across BIER for its SHD de= vices > and is DF for the G). Most people who don't deal with EVPN will have > probably trouble parsing that stuff ... >=20 > With EVPN out of the picture, there seems to be no standard for MHD MC- > LAG, so nothing we can do in the IETF about it IMHO. [Tony saiz:] If we declare BIER MHD a problem, then we can. The accordin= g protocol can be put into BGP or PIM or something light-weight if we want = to solve it from the PE side (like EVPN). Or we can simply say, it's the ho= st problem to know which 2 links are MHD and make sure that JOINs go only o= ne way. Or we can declare it a 'non-problem', i.e. a MHD configuration is = BIER is simply not a valid network config (unless reality proves us wrong m= e thinks ;-) > > Now, whether the problem needs solving in its generality for IP S,G > multicast overlay (like EVPN did for L2) is something I have not much opi= nion > on and leave it to heavy-weights like Ice to argue ... >=20 > Definitely want to support BIER with multi-chassis. > But its all vendor/platform proprietary work, nothing AFAIK that could be > standardized. [Tony saiz:] hmm, if we want to support MHD in interoperable fashion, nothi= ng prevents us from solving the problem in interoperable fashion ;-)=20 IETF's role is to come up with protocols (bits-on-the-wire) that all vendor= s agree on semantically so they interop. The semantics themselves that pro= tocols carry allow the network to reach a usable state in certain configura= tions. Now, which configurations IETF declares of significance is a meta qu= estion that is above my pay-grade here. It's more like A-D type of discussi= on in terms of charters/working groups/recommended existing-protocol-extens= ions ;-)=20 -- tony=20 From nobody Wed Nov 11 14:17:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F861B3B33; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:17:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bAUS8T0WV45M; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BB531B3B31; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:17:25 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79ef6d000007f54-72-56435cc1a1ff Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E9.37.32596.1CC53465; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:20:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:17:23 -0500 From: Antoni Przygienda To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Toerless Eckert Thread-Topic: [Bier] DR election ... Thread-Index: AQHRGCslp93Pn8uplEGw8rG6a54rWp6OenQAgAWqHICAAWLHgIAAGc/wgACVxID//7c10IABQxIAgABWNoD//6/nYIAAYzsA//+vy3AACyTtgAAHJzNQ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:17:23 +0000 Message-ID: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB13433@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1315C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB1331C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn+7BGOcwg/6lShZLZ+xhsti7/B6b xYsVHBav5txhtvjy8CazRdPCJmaLIxcbWRzYPab83sjq0XLkLavHkiU/mTyuN11l99i9cQFT AGsUl01Kak5mWWqRvl0CV8bO5insBefVKtbsf83YwNgg18XIySEhYCLx8cBzdghbTOLCvfVs XYxcHEICRxglln97xwThLGeUeN64jgmkik3AQuLyt6fMILaIQITEryXNYB3MAhsYJRoXPmcB SQgLKEsc+3kfqkhFYvOXm6wgRSICTYwSu88cYQRJsAioSiy7Nw3M5hXwlbh3+DYzxLpLbBL7 N9xnBUlwCiRKTPm3GWwqI9CB30+tATuDWUBc4taT+UwQhwtILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfK4StKLGv fzo7RL2OxILdn9ggbG2JZQtfM0MsFpQ4OfMJywRGsVlIxs5C0jILScssJC0LGFlWMXKUFqeW 5aYbGWxiBMbeMQk23R2Me15aHmIU4GBU4uH9EO4cJsSaWFZcmXuIUYKDWUmEN2AeUIg3JbGy KrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeLkjjv/iX3Q4UE0hNLUrNTUwtSi2CyTBycUg2MbSEcWuKer/peuF60 evXxwBK/2we3/febmHIo7uHzxS4ZYZu5WwSPH5yzT2GzY9L9C1PnGJ2O+ei2QMY6/EztuQPZ T1beWuha43lzdUWCb97ZDZbqr9RzFO4ZRq+alXTuGsfCDcd935wNWB4kkNIfrjd5/0zX71Yh 9228wzeKPX2Ua9HIU3jCV4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRANPwFMK5AgAA Archived-At: Cc: Haoweiguo , "bier@ietf.org" , IJsbrand Wijnands , Robert Raszuk , "pim@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] DR election ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:17:27 -0000 OK, all agreed. I think I got by now how you guys see the issue. I let the = list run away with it and the authors of the draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-el= ection drive it further. First step is probably to define which flavor of MHD we're talking precisel= y (l2, l3, one ether interface, multiple interfaces on different ethers, sa= me IP address/different) and which of those the draft is attempting to solv= e. =20 thanks for enlightement=20 --- tony _____________________________________________ "Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex and intelligent = behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple and stupid beha= vior."=20 --- Dee Hock=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 12:32 PM > To: Antoni Przygienda; Toerless Eckert > Cc: Haoweiguo; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand Wijnands; pim@ietf.org; Robert > Raszuk > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... >=20 > Please see zzh> below. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Antoni Przygienda [mailto:antoni.przygienda@ericsson.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 3:16 PM > > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Toerless Eckert > > > > Cc: Haoweiguo ; bier@ietf.org; IJsbrand > Wijnands > > ; pim@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk > > Subject: RE: [Bier] DR election ... > > > > > > MHD I saw used as generic term in L2/L3 and it does not imply any > > > > protocols and it seems to imply that both routers homed into do > > > > not see each other on the same ether. > > > > > > Right - if they do not see each other, it makes DR election > > > difficult > > (if not > > > impossible). > > > > [Tony saiz:] well, both routers have to run _something_ as peers, > > BGP/PIM/whatever in which they can exchange the knowledge that they > MHD ... >=20 > Zzh> That may be considered as a heavy hammer, too :-) >=20 > > > > > > procedures (split-horizon and DF) which solve the problem even if > > > > the PMSI delivers the frame to multiple routers homing a device on = an > ESI. > > > > > > Right - from L3 point of view, this is a regular LAN. > > > > [Tony saiz:] +1 > > > > > > So, I'd talk about MHD and consider the problem where a device is > > > > MHD'ed via 2 p2p links into 2 different routers, both in same BIER > > > > domain as the most generic problem. > > > > > > Right - but now you can replace BIER with PIM as well :-) > > > > [Tony saiz:] +1 > > > > > > Observe that both routers will receive the traffic for same G > > > > since both may have beside the MHD device SHD devices that need to > > > > be served. > > > > > > But only one should have membership reports for a particular G or > > > (S,G) > > - > > > unless the host switches to another router when sending joins - as I > > > mentioned in the earlier email. > > > > [Tony saiz:] I see. If it's the MHD device responsibility to send > > the JOIN or IGMP only on a single link, we don't need split-horizon. > > That of course will imply significant delay on multicasdt on link > > failure and I would have to think whether the MHD will even know which > > links form a 'multi-homing-group' (pretty much equivalent of ESI). In > > EVPN this is configured on the PE routers. >=20 > My understanding is that in LAG case, the MHD device only sends traffic > (data or control) out of one interface. > In PIM, a router can send joins to both upstream routers (MoFRR), but it = is > this router's job to discard duplicate traffic, not the upstream router's= job. >=20 > > > > > > So the MHD device must be under some set of DF procedures (and > > > > possibly split-horizon, observe that the device injecting the > > > > traffic may see it again from ther other router who'll receive it > > > > across BIER for its SHD devices and is DF for the G). Most people > > > > who don't deal with EVPN will have probably trouble parsing that st= uff > ... > > > > > > I happen to be plugged in EVPN BUM stuff and can parse the above, > > > but I believe this is where we want to solve it by PIM overlay - > > > it's there > > already. I > > > understand that Ice's original intention is to simply run IGMP/MLD > > > over > > the > > > virtual LAN (simulated by BIER) but for this kind of situation, it's > > better to rely > > > on PIM. > > > > [Tony saiz:] Mandating PIM is a pretty heavy hammer to solve the > > problem if you ask me ... >=20 > The EVPN procedure is also a heavy hammer :-) it involves BGP, identifica= tion > of each MH'ed Ethernet Segment, and additional forwarding semantics (a > label in the packet to identify the source segment, and forwarding logic = to > discard the traffic if it is from the same segment). >=20 > Jeffrey >=20 >=20 > > > > -- tony From nobody Thu Nov 12 13:04:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D95C1B35E0 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:04:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rBU0ZIIW4Hv6 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E33641B35DF for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by pabfh17 with SMTP id fh17so76081327pab.0 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:04:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nexenta_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ySFNgGY2F4Po5R618JCPDTEAYGp3ijBibjHoAY57Dpg=; b=ZkHITJHmTEu9kV9r7EevPsPrYRTAKCWbGUme6kUBvnKqR7YHzKK8JrzkIYE3ni9yKz Q1eR+m9TstcK8fEOpPsA2DhF43C3ZBYAFvW5L+LKXPQoHcQOdaGSD6N3LZgUr42wRQpL vavOd38WwGmZEyqRIF5yL3CrGWKl2YMwf/0H/l0HCQbvYxqGWKQnq7jQ4oz0fLH4ehW3 rkK6AEfEIfjuHbtQh2Wek2nuOEgFJcYnZrgDnNUsUJYTfdFModv/bL+XSWwsRhFpY5oV 2kEjOVRQ8IIhYsvmPdrMOsM3d3Qwjip/1v5Z72NO8yPK6rebffnbCx8oyeYL9zj3WYyA /F0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ySFNgGY2F4Po5R618JCPDTEAYGp3ijBibjHoAY57Dpg=; b=GIsPGUox5DjEa3c0PV4scX8QnqUBR6Yw+BaDDxk2OV6dgQkkSMfJ/WWs90yZnaTmFh dJI9isPMe2P1e6U6kp46Oz9ZcKCCAu0dDgUp53r3yfBvz2QtGYRhnjhn8dmYYLvvgoQz ch3aTkkDUSotfJFCGpTlUGdINsjQgbam4neCPrc0KqcKSAICdO75I6SCPOyfprfBDzfv YlRSMyR1bQJPu4se/ZKigoaVq6VT5d03K+0m7BnCiR9aD9CqfLDBDjraVmVC/4hb6Msi 9BlHoa50YrddAb4aIAcW4N2Z0NnR1V2lwDMG/N1w1OEY18o+OERjOFk7KLNO0uubl1sx /HNw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl0jJaO2u77B6wS0nJwJ2k7y5b16ATwuBpdTl9YjAobOWVIfMMSp6o350IDzcYurZgJx/tn X-Received: by 10.67.5.164 with SMTP id cn4mr26255495pad.141.1447362296541; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from Macintosh.local (67-207-110-172.static.wiline.com. [67.207.110.172]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id cx5sm16373804pbc.50.2015.11.12.13.04.55 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:04:55 -0800 (PST) To: bier@ietf.org References: <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB124B4@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151110224703.GC19769@cisco.com> <2E4BB27CAB87BF43B4207C0E55860F180EB12916@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> From: Caitlin Bestler Message-ID: <5644FEF6.400@nexenta.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:04:54 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151111185122.GA14404@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BIER In L2 Context (was Re: DR election .).. X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:04:58 -0000 On 11/11/15 10:51 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Maybe Tony can detail. In current IETF RFC/drafts, MHD is only used in the VPN context. > AFAIK, we have so far not talked about BIER in l2 switched contexts. Of course, > one could replace p2mp LSP (via mLDP) as used in EVPN with BIER, but i am > unclear if thats what Tony is talking aout, and i also wouldn't see a problem > doing this. > > I think mapping BIER to L2 forwarding is very straight-forward. The common model for L2 forwarding has the upper layer (L3 and above) build a forwarding table. Each entry in the forwarding table maps an L2 destination identifier (VLAN + MAC address) to a set of egress queue or ports. A BIER-friendly L2 forwarding rule would map a VLAN + BIER bit position to a set of egress queues or ports, and the forwarding firmware should IOR the forwarding destinations for every bit that was set in the header. That is barely more complex than the current forwarding code. There is very little risk that someone is going to need a larger sized die for their ASIC. The real gotcha is that L2 forwarding chips are not built from scratch very often. There will be foot dragging on supporting "L2 BIER", but out of inherent inertia rather than out of fear of implementation complexity. From nobody Wed Nov 18 10:58:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5685E1A6F7F for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:58:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_61=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 621QltoY1NQ9 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qg0-x230.google.com (mail-qg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1B721A6FC0 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by qgeb1 with SMTP id b1so35329532qge.1 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:58:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=MxZ638j0MhoVDZ3QEAAClWAjJmK/bJ9ISWq89RbRnEc=; b=luwKbldkV2cbekpw1z6bgdioH4Ltu/mLqh1LlAEenV4+zZrr8os2T+o2UMURmFvSJF 0WyavisQFcQ+NM6QmX+axDvxxvfIKar2RBx2zUyjDGQLPuZx/lNzy4X4Vf1SkqoL4rBV ho8qdsb6soBkjzudSv7JLgakY6IsUSHmXf282lB4p/nYTaalIPR0S25NbfBbx/z+bcE6 GPrH11WgiRZiTDAyQe2WM3mZ5HzxbZUUPGqSNo6RPJzx5NhoRQx6EO52Ks1VYf0yBNAd TT0CYMt78tZEL2wJo9aoRREZ1qhXwy0Gbby69VM/YUWIJ0MpkBKx71y8GaG/LYsssJ60 9GYA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.171.197 with SMTP id r188mr3367792qhr.93.1447873096180; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.55.105.68 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:58:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:58:16 -0800 Message-ID: From: Greg Shepherd To: "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a7dfa93eb280524d539eb Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Yokohama minutes X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:58:26 -0000 --001a113a7dfa93eb280524d539eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Please review and respond to the list: IETF 94, Yokohama, Japan BIER WG Agenda Fri, November 6, 2015, 09:00 - 11:00 Room 413 GregS: meeting starting. Welcome, Notewell, Agenda bash Chairs 5 min Note well applies. draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-01 TonyP 5 min Tony P presenting. GregS: what is your feeling on how matyre this is, when cal LC it? Tony: there is a minor thing to split on the architecture line., GregS: architecture draft likely will stay open for a long time. Tony: no intention to rush it. GregS: Alia mentioned not wanting to run WGs forever. Tony: ... GregS: it used to be a requireement. Tony: you cannot LC it before you have an implementation. GregS: anyone paid attention to this document in the room? draft-wijnands-bier-mld-lan-election-00 Ice Wijnands 10 min Ice presenting. GregS: this is a problem, although not convinced that this is the source problem. It should be membership triggered. Whatever the control plane is, it should select A or B Ice: only if you have S,G. GregS: how those two routers know ..... They both can start from the same domain. Ice: therefore the need for DF election. GregS: this seems to be an BIER requirement and issue, what about the mLDP? Ice: MLDP is not used that way. Stig: We should do it in PIM because it is generic problem, and extension to IGMP. We have experience with DR election and load balancing. We have the expertise on working on this problem. Jeffrey Zhang/Juniper: agree on PIM. There are also additional proposale, PIM DR procedure, and those could be merged. Ice: wouldn;t it then put tre requirement to run PIM? Jeffrey: proposed PIM could be ..... just enhance this and then require using it as generic announcements. Stig: It is not specifically PIM but a generic problem. GregS: is that looking at rebuilding the mechanisms fdor runnign the interfaces? Stig: it is about how you gracefully switch to another DR. There is also a solution for load balancing, different DRs for different groups. TonyP: similar is being worked on EVPN. Non-revertive bits, etc. That would be a good place look at. Sandy/ZTE: poer group DF election - hoiw does that work per group? Ice:L group based election needs those procedures specifired. Sandy: Is that IGMP hello> IceL yes. Weiguo/Huawei: for the access scenario, active/stby and actv/actv solution - is it only for actv/stby, or for actv/actv too? Ice: we haven;t specified the provcedurers yet. GregS: have you red the drafr? This is a problem statement, not a solution now. Ice: we look at the procedures and will come with the solution. GregS: and that will be a common solutins. TonyP: this is not homenet, please do not invent protocols on the mike. Toerless: there may be IGMP on one side and PIM on the other, will this be adressed? IceL yes. Ilya Vershkov: will snooping procedures change? Ice: snooping will be affected, yes. GregS: anyone needs any feeling that this work needs to be placed here? Any has objections to move it to PIM? GregS: I like to delegate this ti PIM. Stig: the draft can be presented in both groups, and please talk to PIM WG. GregS: that is a good idea if it gets more people across boundaries. Ice: who was in PIM yesterday? GregS: there is some overlap already. GregS: Stig - do you see this as an item to adopt? Stig: there is little content in the document, we cannot discuss adoption yet. There was interest in the room, I don;t see a problem adopting it later. GregS:.... Stig: there is one drafts that is abiout to be adopted, also load balancing drafts too. GregS: thiose all are the extensions. Ice: if you modify IGMP, and make that look similar to what PIM does, we can reuse the mechjanisms. GegS: Do we have an AD here? Who is assigned AD for this? Alia: Alvaro. I would like to focus on essentials. TonyP: They need to coordinate. Dave Allan: trill has teh same issue. GregS: does trill have the active efforto to solve it? We need to control this problem. We need to consolidate work. JeffreyZ: this is different from the trill. Alia: I can take a look at the draft and talk to Alvaro. If it has more generic applicability than BIER it should be in PIM. This does not seem to be that central. Ice: does anyone feel that this should not be done in IGMP? Speak now or stay silent forever. GregS: no objections raised on this. draft-mirsky-bier-path-mtu-discovery-00 Greg Mirsky 10 min GregM presenting. Loa Andersson: hasn't this problem solved in IPv4 multicast? GregM: there is no mechanisms in the ipv4 multicast a mechanism to indicate which nodes to respond. Toerless: that is the reason that it was recommended to use the minimum size frames. I do not see this being very different in BIER. GregM: using BIER bitstring we can explicitely specify the BFERs that we are we are targetting and thus limit which nodes to respond. That reduces the number of PMTUD responses in the given subdomain. Toerless: is this OAM thing only, or coupled to application? Would it ever do fragmentation? GregM: currently BIER for MPLS does not do fragmentation, and this is for OAM. Toerless: I do not believe that PMTUD is defined only for OAM. Erik Nordmark: IPv4 has noting because there are no ICMP error resturned for errors. If I recall there is packet too big ro IPv6. The question whether this is OAM only or application is intersting. Loa Andersson: If you you send to E, F, and G only, will that resolve in different MTU size ithan if you sent ot De, E, F. G? GregM: yes. Loa: then you need to keep state of where it was sent and who rersponded. Greg: that is per subdomain. Loa: the for each subdomain you need to tract MTU size? GregM: yes. We may select the minimum of all MTU that we discovered. Loa: I think you will be forced to do that if yiu have non-compatible BFR in the path. GregM: noncompatible would be the one that does not support this extention. There should be some heuristics on decreasing the proe size. Andrew Dolganov. You can do this per channel. This would be used either base don discovery, or base don the channels that you distribyute. TonyP: would we nned to standartize this? Andrew: we would standardize the procedure, but not the mechanisms how to do it specifically. GregM: if we have two distribution trees, we run it per tree and the minimum will be lowest of them. Loa: I am fine with that. Toerless: we havent done that for OAM in other networks, the requirements doecument does not talk about this. Would be noce to write up the need and use cases for it. GregM: BIER provides instrumentation that allows to do it in a n effective way. GregS: this is topology MTU, not really a path MTU. All the MTU mechanisms that I am aware they are based on the application, thisa seems to be standalone to the network. GregM: I do recall in some other encapsulations - VXLAN, maybe SFC - they do path discovery. draft-chh-bier-bier-yang-01 Ran Chen 15 min Ran presenting. TonyP: would like some discipline - has this been run through the validation tool? Alia - do you think this needs YANG doctor assigned? Alia: yoiu can send to YANG doctors and check how mature it is, there is also a Sunday YANG editin session, please bring it there. TonyP: BIER is AF -independent and model will need to be aligned to that. Ice: we associate BFR id with loopback, and you need to lookup that in particular table. TonyP: I was referring to the subdomain AF independence. Ice: if you configure which AF you support. TonyP: subdomain can carry multiple AFs. Ice: should it be the other way around? TonyP: we can carry MPLS frames too. this does not seem to be deeply looked at. ?/ZTE: we defined different BFR per AF?? TonyP: but the label will be the same, and I do not see a need for specifying that. We are inventing protocol on the mike, it does not seem that this model has been depply reviewed. TonyP: who wants to work on YANG models, people, this is your career. :-) Alia: given that BIER is a new technology and how it progresses, and given the progressing of YANG models, it is good to make shure that model mathches the architecture. Please review it. Toerless: it is even more important as there is a lot more conifguration that needs to be pused. GregS: who things this needs to be adopted. Will take to the list. draft-chen-pce-bier-00 Ran Chen draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 Toerless Eckert 10 min Toerless presenting. Ice: in TE there is no set id, there is subdomain and bit positions. Toerless: there is, I will explain that in later slides. Ice: it seems that you are mixing semantich of SPF BIER and TE that are not compatible. An example of set ids .... if you use that same BFR ID for TE, you can reach that node if the bit position is the same on all nodes along the path, and you need to engineer for that. Toerless: I do not get that. Ice: BFR ID is transalted into a bit position. Al the nodes in the path do not need to use the same bit? You need to configure on each node a set id for a particular next hop. But tha it is not how it is configured, it is automatically generated. You are mixing set id and subdomain. Toerless: the intention was to make it easy for flow overlay solution. Ice: as it is dynamically generated and configured, you should use subdomains for it. ToerlessL in normal BIER, I am not getting an ideal forwarding. TonyP/hat off: I do not see anything wrong with using different subdomains. Mixing the semantics in the same domain - it iwll make the cost of hardware to go exponentially. Toerless: there would be two labels bound for the sma subdomain, TonyP: but then you reinvent subdomains. We have discussed this before. It is a distinguising of the servite taht you ruin in the subdomain. Toerless: I am open to have BIER and BIER-TE in the same domain. Let's see whether there are technical reasons that would preclude this to work. TonyP: I do not think that you can mix TE and normal BIER semantics. Toerless: the simple case - subdomain has BIER or BIER-TE only. Flow overlay cannot deal with one parameter in a simple way. I am not sure there is anythign that would break. Ice: BRF ID is just a value, but you need to know which set id it is. Toerless: that is an interpretation. I would like to take whatever I can get out of IGP. Sandy: You divide BIER domain into several areas - do they directly map to IGP areas? Toerless: there is no necessary relationship, they could match but that is not required. Sandy: usually we cannot use IGP area directly? ?? Toerless: that seems to be relaed to the management aspects. If you have an IGP area, that would be a similar approach in the area in BIER-TE. draft-zhang-bier-designed-routing-00 Sandy Zhang 10 min Sandy presenting. TonyP: it is cute but unfortunately does not work. You cannot express the DAG via a topological sort. This will lead to packet replication. We can keep it on the email, or you can implement and experiment with it. draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00 Linda Wang 15 min Linda presenting. Toerless: I do not undesstttand teh use cases. And also uncertain about the scalability. DC has millions of VMs and 100000s of identifiers, and some use cases that would indicate the scale numbers would be needed. If this is in the context on the unknown traffic, then flooding may be good enough. Linda: thank you,. Jeffrey Zhang/Juniper: today VXLAN can use PIM to do this functionality. Why cannot we just BIER instead of PIM trees, everything else stays the same? No changes would be needed in this case neither in BIEr, nnor in PIM. Linda: BIER could also be used for connecting other NVEs. ??? This seems to be a discussion about PIM and BIER positioning. Jeffrey: you do not run PIM at all, just use the groups, and use BOER for forwarding. TonyP: the membership discovery is overlay problem, and trying to put it in BIER layer will make it melt, there will be changes flooded for every VM membership change. draft-want-bier-lite-ospf-extensions-00 Linda Wang Linda presenting. GregS: any comments? TonyP: who has read the draft? Selected few. Ice/Cisco: you need to be careful if you introduce another data plane encapsulation for BIER as it is expensive to implement across platforms. Not certain whether MPLS could not solve this problem. We have discussed this before and I am not convinced that we need to work on this. GregS: this particular deployment does not support MPLS. What is missing in label encapsulation that could be used here? We just want an ethertype and not using MPLS as such here. Ice: this will likely require replicating a lot of forwarding code that is already there. Pat Thaler/Broadcom & IEEE 802 vice chair. Before we do this we need to show this to IEEE 802 and see how they feel about it, I would request to send a liaison to IEEE 802. GregS: encourage to read the document and see whether the use case is good. Will keep the discussion on the list, and please read and review the document. GregS: Encourage reading on what is there and please discuss. End of meeting. --001a113a7dfa93eb280524d539eb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please review and respond to the list:

=

IETF 94, Yokohama, Japan
BIER WG Agenda
=
Fri, November 6, 2015, 09:00 - 11:00
Room 413

=

GregS: meeting starting.



Welcome, Notewell, Agenda bash =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Chair= s =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05 min
Note well applies.=C2=A0



draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-01 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TonyP =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05 min

Tony P presenting.=C2=A0=

GregS: what is your feeling on how matyre this is= , when cal LC it?=C2=A0
Tony: there is a minor thing to split on = the architecture line.,=C2=A0
GregS: architecture draft likely wi= ll stay open for a long time.=C2=A0
Tony: no intention to rush it= .=C2=A0
GregS: Alia mentioned not wanting to run WGs forever.=C2= =A0
Tony: ...
GregS: it used to be a requireement.=C2= =A0
Tony: you cannot LC it before you have an implementation.=C2= =A0
GregS: anyone paid attention to this document in the room?=C2= =A0



draft-wijnands-b= ier-mld-lan-election-00 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Ice Wijnands =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A010 min

Ice presenting.=C2=A0

GregS: this is a problem,= although not convinced that this is the source problem. It should be membe= rship triggered. Whatever the control plane is, it should select A or B
Ice: only if you have S,G.=C2=A0
GregS: how those two rout= ers know ..... They both can start from the same domain.=C2=A0
Ic= e: therefore the need for DF election.=C2=A0

GregS= : this seems to be an BIER requirement and issue, what about the mLDP?
Ice: MLDP is not used that way.=C2=A0
Stig: We should do it= in PIM because it is generic problem, and extension to IGMP. We have exper= ience with DR election and load balancing. We have the expertise on working= on this problem.=C2=A0
Jeffrey Zhang/Juniper: agree on PIM. Ther= e are also additional proposale, PIM DR procedure, and those could be merge= d.=C2=A0
Ice: wouldn;t it then put tre requirement to run PIM?=C2= =A0
Jeffrey: proposed PIM could be ..... just enhance this and th= en require using it as generic announcements.=C2=A0
Stig: It is n= ot specifically PIM but a generic problem.=C2=A0
GregS: is that l= ooking at rebuilding the mechanisms fdor runnign the interfaces?=C2=A0
Stig: it is about how you gracefully switch to another DR. There is a= lso a solution for load balancing, different DRs for different groups.=C2= =A0
TonyP: similar is being worked on EVPN. Non-revertive bits, e= tc. That would be a good place look at.=C2=A0
Sandy/ZTE: poer gro= up DF election - hoiw does that work per group?=C2=A0
Ice:L group= based election needs those procedures specifired.=C2=A0
Sandy: I= s that IGMP hello>
IceL yes.=C2=A0
Weiguo/Huawei: fo= r the access scenario, active/stby and actv/actv solution - is it only for = actv/stby, or for actv/actv too?
Ice: we haven;t specified the pr= ovcedurers yet.=C2=A0
GregS: have you red the drafr? This is a pr= oblem statement, not a solution now.=C2=A0
Ice: we look at the pr= ocedures and will come with the solution.=C2=A0
GregS: and that w= ill be a common solutins.=C2=A0
TonyP: this is not homenet, pleas= e do not invent protocols on the mike.=C2=A0
Toerless: there may = be IGMP on one side and PIM on the other, will this be adressed?
= IceL yes.=C2=A0
Ilya Vershkov: will snooping procedures change?= =C2=A0
Ice: snooping will be affected, yes.=C2=A0
GregS= : anyone needs any feeling that this work needs to be placed here? Any has = objections to move it to PIM?=C2=A0
GregS: I like to delegate thi= s ti PIM.=C2=A0
Stig: the draft can be presented in both groups, = and please talk to PIM WG.=C2=A0
GregS: that is a good idea if it= gets more people across boundaries.=C2=A0
Ice: who was in PIM ye= sterday?=C2=A0
GregS: there is some overlap already.=C2=A0
<= div>GregS: Stig - do you see this as an item to adopt?=C2=A0
Stig= : there is little content in the document, we cannot discuss adoption yet. = There was interest in the room, I don;t see a problem adopting it later.=C2= =A0
GregS:....
Stig: there is one drafts that is abiout= to be adopted, also load balancing drafts too.=C2=A0
GregS: thio= se all are the extensions.=C2=A0
Ice: if you modify IGMP, and mak= e that look similar to what PIM does, we can reuse the mechjanisms.=C2=A0
GegS: Do we have an AD here? Who is assigned AD for this?=C2=A0
Alia: Alvaro. I would like to focus on essentials.=C2=A0
= TonyP: They need to coordinate.=C2=A0
Dave Allan: trill has teh s= ame issue.=C2=A0
GregS: does trill have the active efforto to sol= ve it? We need to control this problem. We need to consolidate work.=C2=A0<= /div>
JeffreyZ: this is different from the trill.=C2=A0
Alia:= I can take a look at the draft and talk to Alvaro. If it has more generic = applicability than BIER it should be in PIM. This does not seem to be that = central.=C2=A0
Ice: does anyone feel that this should not be done= in IGMP? Speak now or stay silent forever.=C2=A0
GregS: no objec= tions raised on this.=C2=A0




draft-mirsky-bier-path-mtu-discovery-00 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greg Mirsky =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A010 min

GregM presenting.=C2=A0

Loa Andersson: hasn't this problem solved in IPv4 multi= cast?=C2=A0
GregM: there is no mechanisms in the ipv4 multicast a= mechanism to indicate which nodes to respond.=C2=A0
Toerless: th= at is the reason that it was recommended to use the minimum size frames. I = do not see this being very different in BIER.=C2=A0
GregM: using = BIER bitstring we can explicitely specify the BFERs that we are we are targ= etting and thus limit which nodes to respond. That reduces the number of PM= TUD responses in the given subdomain.=C2=A0
Toerless: is this OAM= thing only, or coupled to application? Would it ever do fragmentation?=C2= =A0
GregM: currently BIER for MPLS does not do fragmentation, and= this is for OAM.=C2=A0
Toerless: I do not believe that PMTUD is = defined only for OAM.=C2=A0
Erik Nordmark: IPv4 has noting becaus= e there are no ICMP error resturned for errors. If I recall there is packet= too big ro IPv6. The question whether this is OAM only or application is i= ntersting.=C2=A0
Loa Andersson: If you you send to E, F, and G on= ly, will that resolve in different MTU size ithan if you sent ot De, E, F. = G?
GregM: yes.=C2=A0
Loa: then you need to keep state o= f where it was sent and who rersponded.=C2=A0
Greg: that is per s= ubdomain.=C2=A0
Loa: the for each subdomain you need to tract MTU= size?
GregM: yes. We may select the minimum of all MTU that we d= iscovered.=C2=A0
Loa: I think you will be forced to do that if yi= u have non-compatible BFR in the path.=C2=A0
GregM: noncompatible= would be the one that does not support this extention. There should be som= e heuristics on decreasing the proe size.=C2=A0
Andrew Dolganov. = You can do this per channel. This would be used either base don discovery, = or base don the channels that you distribyute.=C2=A0
TonyP: would= we nned to standartize this?=C2=A0
Andrew: we would standardize = the procedure, but not the mechanisms how to do it specifically.=C2=A0
GregM: if we have two distribution trees, we run it per tree and the = minimum will be lowest of them.=C2=A0
Loa: I am fine with that.= =C2=A0
Toerless: we havent done that for OAM in other networks, t= he requirements doecument does not talk about this. Would be noce to write = up the need and use cases for it.=C2=A0
GregM: BIER provides inst= rumentation that allows to do it in a n effective way.=C2=A0
Greg= S: this is topology MTU, not really a path MTU. All the MTU mechanisms that= I am aware they are based on the application, thisa seems to be standalone= to the network.=C2=A0
GregM: I do recall in some other encapsula= tions - VXLAN, maybe SFC - they do path discovery.=C2=A0




draft-chh-bier-bier-yan= g-01 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ran Chen =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A015 min

Ran presenting.=C2=A0

TonyP: would like some= discipline - has this been run through the validation tool? Alia - do you = think this needs YANG doctor assigned?=C2=A0
Alia: yoiu can send = to YANG doctors and check how mature it is, there is also a Sunday YANG edi= tin session, please bring it there.=C2=A0
TonyP: BIER is AF -inde= pendent and model will need to be aligned to that.=C2=A0
Ice: we = associate BFR id with loopback, and you need to lookup that in particular t= able.=C2=A0
TonyP: I was referring to the subdomain AF independen= ce.=C2=A0
Ice: if you configure which AF you support.=C2=A0
=
TonyP: subdomain can carry multiple AFs.=C2=A0
Ice: should i= t be the other way around?=C2=A0
TonyP: we can carry MPLS frames = too. this does not seem to be deeply looked at.=C2=A0
?/ZTE: we d= efined different BFR per AF??
TonyP: but the label will be the sa= me, and I do not see a need for specifying that. We are inventing protocol = on the mike, it does not seem that this model has been depply reviewed.=C2= =A0
TonyP: who wants to work on YANG models, people, this is your= career. :-)=C2=A0
Alia: given that BIER is a new technology and = how it progresses, and given the progressing of YANG models, it is good to = make shure that model mathches the architecture. Please review it.=C2=A0
Toerless: it is even more important as there is a lot more conifgur= ation that needs to be pused.=C2=A0
GregS: who things this needs = to be adopted. Will take to the list.=C2=A0



draft-chen-pce-bier-00 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Ran Chen



<= br>

draft-eckert-bier-te-arch-02 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless = Eckert =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A010 min

Toerless = presenting.=C2=A0

Ice: in TE there is no set id, t= here is subdomain and bit positions.=C2=A0
Toerless: there is, I = will explain that in later slides.=C2=A0

Ice: it s= eems that you are mixing semantich of SPF BIER and TE that are not compatib= le. An example of set ids .... if you use that same BFR ID for TE, you can = reach that node if the bit position is the same on all nodes along the path= , and you need to engineer for that.=C2=A0
Toerless: I do not get= that.=C2=A0
Ice: BFR ID is transalted into a bit position. Al th= e nodes in the path do not need to use the same bit? You need to configure = on each node a set id for a particular next hop. But tha it is not how it i= s configured, it is automatically generated. You are mixing set id and subd= omain.=C2=A0
Toerless: the intention was to make it easy for flow= overlay solution.
Ice: as it is dynamically generated and config= ured, you should use subdomains for it.=C2=A0
ToerlessL in normal= BIER, I am not getting an ideal forwarding.=C2=A0
TonyP/hat off:= I do not see anything wrong with using different subdomains. Mixing the se= mantics in the same domain - it iwll make the cost of hardware to go expone= ntially. =C2=A0
Toerless: there would be two labels bound for the= sma subdomain,=C2=A0
TonyP: but then you reinvent subdomains. We= have discussed this before. It is a distinguising of the servite taht you = ruin in the subdomain.=C2=A0
Toerless: I am open to have BIER and= BIER-TE in the same domain. Let's see whether there are technical reas= ons that would preclude this to work.=C2=A0
TonyP: I do not think= that you can mix TE and normal BIER semantics.=C2=A0
Toerless: t= he simple case - subdomain has BIER or BIER-TE only. Flow overlay cannot de= al with one parameter in a simple way. I am not sure there is anythign that= would break.=C2=A0
Ice: BRF ID is just a value, but you need to = know which set id it is.=C2=A0
Toerless: that is an interpretatio= n. I would like to take whatever I can get out of IGP.=C2=A0
Sand= y: You divide BIER domain into several areas - do they directly map to IGP = areas?
Toerless: there is no necessary relationship, they could m= atch but that is not required.=C2=A0
Sandy: usually we cannot use= IGP area directly? ??
Toerless: that seems to be relaed to the m= anagement aspects. If you have an IGP area, that would be a similar approac= h in the area in BIER-TE.=C2=A0





draft-zhang-bier-d= esigned-routing-00 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0S= andy Zhang =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A010 min

Sandy= presenting.=C2=A0

TonyP: it is cute but unfortuna= tely does not work. You cannot express the DAG via a topological sort. This= will lead to packet replication. We can keep it on the email, or you can i= mplement and experiment with it.=C2=A0


<= div>

draft-wang-bier-vxlan-use-case-00 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Linda Wang =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A015 min

Linda presenting.=C2=A0
<= div>
Toerless: I do not undesstttand teh use cases. And also = uncertain about the scalability. DC has millions of VMs and 100000s of iden= tifiers, and some use cases that would indicate the scale numbers would be = needed. If this is in the context on the unknown traffic, then flooding may= be good enough.=C2=A0
Linda: thank you,.=C2=A0
Jeffrey= Zhang/Juniper: today VXLAN can use PIM to do this functionality. Why canno= t we just BIER instead of PIM trees, everything else stays the same? No cha= nges would be needed in this case neither in BIEr, nnor in PIM.=C2=A0
=
Linda: BIER could also be used for connecting other NVEs. ??? This see= ms to be a discussion about PIM and BIER positioning.=C2=A0
Jeffr= ey: you do not run PIM at all, just use the groups, and use BOER for forwar= ding.=C2=A0
TonyP: the membership discovery is overlay problem, a= nd trying to put it in BIER layer will make it melt, there will be changes = flooded for every VM membership change.=C2=A0


=


draft-want-bier-lite-ospf-extensio= ns-00 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Linda Wang =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

Linda presenting.=C2=A0

GregS: any comments?=C2= =A0
TonyP: who has read the draft? Selected few.=C2=A0
= Ice/Cisco: you need to be careful if you introduce another data plane encap= sulation for BIER as it is expensive to implement across platforms. Not cer= tain whether MPLS could not solve this problem. We have discussed this befo= re and I am not convinced that we need to work on this.=C2=A0
Gre= gS: this particular deployment does not support MPLS. What is missing in la= bel encapsulation that could be used here? We just want an ethertype and no= t using MPLS as such here.=C2=A0
Ice: this will likely require re= plicating a lot of forwarding code that is already there.=C2=A0
P= at Thaler/Broadcom & IEEE 802 vice chair. Before we do this we need to = show this to IEEE 802 and see how they feel about it, I would request to se= nd a liaison to IEEE 802.=C2=A0
GregS: encourage to read the docu= ment and see whether the use case is good. Will keep the discussion on the = list, and please read and review the document.=C2=A0






GregS: Encourage reading on what is there and please discuss. End of mee= ting.=C2=A0



--001a113a7dfa93eb280524d539eb--