From nobody Thu Mar 1 19:58:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C55126C19; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 19:58:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iR6aOj2pDF63; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 19:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 881EB120724; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 19:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id h21so691791wmd.1; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 19:58:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a/ozS0yVfzln013e6qy1CmcpTu/P/6CDewmRRWGKL+E=; b=JlaaaRsXJK1XgkYbr3/2gwPcIXqxfFhjzttmRucuRKms+yTN5rVZWNKNpl+uHaGk9z 8xlDK7TO+xKAWXL1SJJlf2TYVEGuXX8I4XAG0m5dLJV8BMFuaamb+TFOJLd14UsA4ofQ OdTLzK0NNRgATKJ3Fcqw+76OEjRlunDu3hO/rgFS2u3sAkZn6LsvU0lowIAklfq3Pwkx +C3d3E04lDeJ37evDC3eGoA3zYNh5MhcqlF4inj5jYB67/Fu0THEazve66mRmBcWhVWk ArqWCbNPwxmNcuCKYc7rJHNwi1Wfe5kU4upgacktVyQ4t7XTLb9VOxk3vpmmDANAfeKi Z3Ag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a/ozS0yVfzln013e6qy1CmcpTu/P/6CDewmRRWGKL+E=; b=f10/RgH4NtCjaZHif2kgB0IwRqLT2Dfpymc4/3eq9dBHiyYMyzrWum6wnjO2jsOSHU VOOonGLMTe0y8lL0XFsK2d1qLFf5zzlySnM7o/0UwzUAHeyWR3JXiEF+f99GtJEAsUPO ycZ0XekPN4E15MowQiG3x4PqU5L3nb6DaoDm5xHAIWm0T7XVZGY/2rqXjUS0cyU9N9DB PxWOxvl2ccukJEwI3xY3Ypmb2bzmlUCaePVLFljjhn/zBXYgiAQYuaTsAu9jnx8n9J3d hq93uca7iGmJ9XCSgmgwgptj0HrPewd4Xn4RdYfie4F9NtIXmUv751tVhZdVsfA6X7+S FPew== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPA99oOawJ38FXukhLppOX4aQzGFl6NfPmYCQVKT5jhlZCIhBXIx xA0Lgd36uMNowmK5G9hxZmR2yywPLtAdIxWuzvY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsYohLBcGB+QzJDFFAhnphTjmL3Hb+CdW7BqgwWlIIGUIDEm0WdF9xGU4QdR+HjaRYH0EUsDDw55AL+3eZpoo8= X-Received: by 10.80.135.230 with SMTP id 35mr5707803edz.1.1519963119029; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 19:58:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 19:57:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 19:57:58 -0800 Message-ID: To: Alvaro Retana Cc: Peter Psenak , The IESG , Reshad Rahman , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c158ec81289056665fdc0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 03:58:43 -0000 --f403045c158ec81289056665fdc0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem addressed adequatly. Outstanding points I don't think need addressing further * invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity ospf vs isis signalling. That's really a defect of RFC8279 where we should have been stricter with language. Not a problem of IGP drafts * registry: I think that will be cleaned up during publication process, i.e. registry created and references taken out of the drafts * no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given RFC8279 is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this restriction. The length clause would not change any other considerations anyway such as behavior when 2 routers advertise the same prefix in an area with conflicting BIER information which is addressed in the draft already. Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all following procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to IESG for publication ... Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call limited to changes in versions -14 and -15 thanks --- tony On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana wrote: > Peter: > > Hi! Thanks for addressing my comment! > > Alvaro. > > On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com) > wrote: > > Hi Alvaro, > > please see inline (##PP): > > On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote: > > On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com > > ) wrote: > > > > Peter: > > > > Hi! > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > >> > COMMENT: > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > >> > > >> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some work: > >> > > >> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the 128-255 > range? > >> > >> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored" Do we nee to sa= y > >> the same here again? > > > > Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in the > > LSAs when used for MTR. > > > > What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV? > > > > For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with one and onl= y > > one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT-ID is not > > known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check? > > ##PP > ok, I have added the following statement: > > "If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in [RFC4915], the > BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." > > > > > > >> > > >> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured with a valid BFR-id= , > the value > >> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279]." I looked in > rfc8279 for > >> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this instead: "The value = 0 > is not a > >> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "invalid" is the same as > "not > >> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent. > >> > >> would you agree with: > >> > >> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as illegal in > >> [RFC8279]. > > > > Yeah, that=E2=80=99s fine. > > > > Side comment: it=E2=80=99s a shame that rfc8279 chose =E2=80=9Cillegal= =E2=80=9D to describe a > > value that can be used. > > > > > >> > > >> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advertising duplicates > MUST be > >> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id." How are BFRs > that > >> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated? > >> > >> what about: > >> > >> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id" > > > > Sorry=E2=80=A6the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? What need= s to be > > done by the receiver? > > rfc8279, section 5 says: > > " If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both advertised the > same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an error. > Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A is > functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value N in > the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been assigned to the > given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the packet needs > to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C. > > This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicast > traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioning > error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them > receive each other's traffic. > > > ... > > If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particular > sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST interpret > that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR does not have > a BFR-id in that sub-domain." > > > So I rewrote the section as: > > "All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid BFR-IDs for a > given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is detected by the > BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279]." > > > > > > > >> > > >> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value not > supported in > >> > rfc8296? > >> > >> what about: > >> > >> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match any of the > >> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsulation > >> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." > > > > ok > > > > > >> > > >> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs > advertised by the > >> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, the > advertising router > >> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-TLVs." If an > overlap > >> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising the overlap) > are > >> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right? The text i= s > not > >> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the BFR that > advertised > >> > last (and resulted in the detection happening). > >> > >> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advertises the > >> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs > it > >> advertises. > > > > Yeah=E2=80=A6sorry=E2=80=A6overlooked that first part. > > > > > >> > > >> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What is a "valid" label? > >> > >> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we specified earlier > >> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost bits represent > >> the first label" and any value should be fine. > > > > Well=E2=80=A6there are some reserved values=E2=80=A6 rfc3032=E2=80=A6 > > > > How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have been defined in > rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. I have > removed the following text: > > "All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER sub-TLV MUST be > ignored. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > ... > > > >> > > >> > (2) Security Considerations > >> > > >> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an attacker could > simply > >> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges and have a > significant > >> > impact on the network. > >> > >> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and existing > >> text covers that: > >> > >> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to one > >> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, > >> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in [RFC7474= ] > >> SHOULD be used." > > > > I=E2=80=99ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks this is = ok. > > > >> > > >> > (3) IANA Considerations > >> > > >> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is a Sub-TLV of th= e > BIER > >> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is allocated from > the OSPF > >> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new registry for > sub-TLVs for > >> > the BIER Sub-TLV. > >> > >> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines sub-TLVs > >> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs". > >> > >> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do so :) > > > > Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in the > > registry itself. > > > > We=E2=80=99re good then. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Alvaro. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --f403045c158ec81289056665fdc0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ok, I went over it once more, all= issues seem addressed adequatly. Outstanding points I don't think need= addressing further

* invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disp= arity ospf vs isis signalling. That's really a defect of RFC8279 where = we should have been stricter with language. Not a problem of IGP drafts
=
* registry: I think that will be cleaned up during publication proces= s, i.e. registry created and references taken out of the drafts
<= div>* no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given RFC827= 9 is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this restriction. The len= gth clause would not change any other considerations anyway such as behavio= r when 2 routers advertise the same prefix in an area with conflicting BIER= information which is addressed in the draft already.=C2=A0
=
Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all foll= owing procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to IESG for p= ublication ...

Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last = call limited to changes in versions -14 and -15

tha= nks

--- tony

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana <a= retana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:

Hi!= =C2=A0 Thanks for addressing my comment!

Alvaro.

On February 23= , 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com) wrote:

Hi Alva= ro,

please see inline (##PP):

On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote:
> On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com
> <mailto:= ppsenak@cisco.com>) wrote:
>
> Peter:
>
> Hi!
>
>> > ----------------------------------------------------= ------------------
>> > COMMENT:
>> > ----------------------------------------------------= ------------------
>> >
>> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some wo= rk:
>> >
>> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the= 128-255 range?
>>
>> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored&quo= t; Do we nee to say
>> the same here again?
>
> Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in = the
> LSAs when used for MTR.
>
> What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV?
>
> For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with o= ne and only
> one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT= -ID is not
> known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check?

##PP
ok, I have added the following statement:

"If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in [RFC4915= ], the =20
BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored."

>
>
>> >
>> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured wit= h a valid BFR-id, the value
>> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279].&quo= t; I looked in rfc8279 for
>> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this= instead: "The value 0 is not a
>> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "inva= lid" is the same as "not
>> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent.
>>
>> would you agree with:
>>
>> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as= illegal in
>> [RFC8279].
>
> Yeah, that=E2=80=99s fine.
>
> Side comment: it=E2=80=99s a shame that rfc8279 chose =E2=80=9Cill= egal=E2=80=9D to describe a
> value that can be used.
>
>
>> >
>> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advert= ising duplicates MUST be
>> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id."= ; How are BFRs that
>> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated?
>>
>> what about:
>>
>> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id"
>
> Sorry=E2=80=A6the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? Wha= t needs to be
> done by the receiver?

rfc8279, section 5 says:

" If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both advertis= ed the
same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an error.
Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A = is
functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value N in
the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been assigned to t= he
given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the packet need= s
to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C.

This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicast
traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioning
error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them
receive each other's traffic.


...

If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particular
sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST interpret
that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR does not hav= e
a BFR-id in that sub-domain."


So I rewrote the section as:

"All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid BFR-IDs for= a =20
given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is detected by the= =20
BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279]."


>
>
>> >
>> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value = not supported in
>> > rfc8296?
>>
>> what about:
>>
>> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match a= ny of the
>> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsula= tion
>> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored."
>
> ok
>
>
>> >
>> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation S= ub-TLVs advertised by the
>> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, th= e advertising router
>> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-T= LVs." If an overlap
>> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising t= he overlap) are
>> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right?= The text is not
>> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the= BFR that advertised
>> > last (and resulted in the detection happening).
>>
>> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advert= ises the
>> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation S= ub-TLVs it
>> advertises.
>
> Yeah=E2=80=A6sorry=E2=80=A6overlooked that first part.
>
>
>> > =09
>> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What= is a "valid" label?
>>
>> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we speci= fied earlier
>> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost b= its represent
>> the first label" and any value should be fine.
>
> Well=E2=80=A6there are some reserved values=E2=80=A6 rfc3032=E2=80= =A6
>

How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have been defined i= n =20
rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. I have =20
removed the following text:

"All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER sub-TLV M= UST be =20
ignored.

thanks,
Peter

>
> ...
>
>> >
>> > (2) Security Considerations
>> >
>> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an at= tacker could simply
>> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges a= nd have a significant
>> > impact on the network.
>>
>> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and ex= isting
>> text covers that:
>>
>> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have = access to one
>> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployme= nts,
>> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in = [RFC7474]
>> SHOULD be used."
>
> I=E2=80=99ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks thi= s is ok.
>
>> >
>> > (3) IANA Considerations
>> >
>> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is= a Sub-TLV of the BIER
>> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is = allocated from the OSPF
>> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new reg= istry for sub-TLVs for
>> > the BIER Sub-TLV.
>>
>> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines= sub-TLVs
>> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs".
>>
>> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do s= o :)
>
> Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in t= he
> registry itself.
>
> We=E2=80=99re good then.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Alvaro.
>

<= /div>

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: Tony Przygienda , Alvaro Retana CC: "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" , The IESG , BIER WG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTq+kFi6Gf3aD5M0yUfP96A47aOKOxCRkAgABpVICAAOtyAIAAHGGAgApH0ACAAFezgA== Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 14:11:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.a.0.180210 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.51] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A8E64F19F2364C7DA50BECE8EDA3EB02ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 14:11:58 -0000 --_000_A8E64F19F2364C7DA50BECE8EDA3EB02ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TG9va2luZyBhdCAtMTUsIEkgc2VlIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBpcyBzdGlsbCBjYWxsZWQg4oCcT1NQRiBF eHRlbnNpb25zIGZvciBCSUVS4oCdLiBPbmUgY29tbWVudCBJIGhhZCBpbiBteSBzaGVwaGVyZCB3 cml0ZS11cCBpcyB0aGF0IGl0IHNob3VsZCBiZSByZW5hbWVkIHRvIOKAmE9TUEZ2MiBFeHRlbnNp b25zIGZvciBCSUVS4oCZLCBJIGRpZG7igJl0IHNlZSBhbnkgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgb24gdGhpcyAo ZXhjZXB0IE1pcmphIHdobyBhZ3JlZXMgd2l0aCB0aGUgY29tbWVudCkuDQoNCkZyb206IFRvbnkg UHJ6eWdpZW5kYSA8dG9ueXNpZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NCkRhdGU6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAx 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(Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1D361201F8; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 06:25:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11151; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1520000733; x=1521210333; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=++Hafv+MhfopT8o4dIoHusN9dW0VYv0PngcmcQgyEo4=; b=nGj75IUQKaLaOzPgRPHzE7+LhVckPOXzxsitWtn2k6ZwZgi1VL5bAoV6 8TCXO21DnDuUvMSAEV+gndLe+6woGIfuSVEJfUtPzzHbqu5rEiwlXb8MB TP0LWMCtZQNzIwiWpD2/I4hHAKQMCXT6fj+2AOSUkAl0YPkWohQf1r2Vc Q=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.47,412,1515456000"; d="scan'208";a="2336927" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Mar 2018 14:25:31 +0000 Received: from [10.60.140.51] (ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com [10.60.140.51]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w22EPU1u030329; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 14:25:30 GMT Message-ID: <5A995EDA.80702@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 15:25:30 +0100 From: Peter Psenak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , Tony Przygienda , Alvaro Retana CC: The IESG , BIER WG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 14:25:36 -0000 Reshad, well, there are way too many RFCs that specifies something OSPFv2 specific with "OSPF" in a name. I don't think this is a big deal, but I can certainly change that as a part of the publication process. thanks, Peter On 02/03/18 15:11 , Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote: > Looking at -15, I see the draft is still called “OSPF Extensions for > BIERâ€. One comment I had in my shepherd write-up is that it should be > renamed to ‘OSPFv2 Extensions for BIER’, I didn’t see any discussions on > this (except Mirja who agrees with the comment). > > *From: *Tony Przygienda > *Date: *Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 10:58 PM > *To: *Alvaro Retana > *Cc: *"Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" , The IESG > , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , BIER WG > , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" > , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on > draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) > > ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem addressed adequatly. > Outstanding points I don't think need addressing further > > * invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity ospf vs isis signalling. > That's really a defect of RFC8279 where we should have been stricter > with language. Not a problem of IGP drafts > > * registry: I think that will be cleaned up during publication process, > i.e. registry created and references taken out of the drafts > > * no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given RFC8279 > is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this restriction. The > length clause would not change any other considerations anyway such as > behavior when 2 routers advertise the same prefix in an area with > conflicting BIER information which is addressed in the draft already. > > Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all following > procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to IESG for > publication ... > > Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call limited to changes in > versions -14 and -15 > > thanks > > --- tony > > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana > > wrote: > > Peter: > > Hi! Thanks for addressing my comment! > > Alvaro. > > On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak > (ppsenak@cisco.com) wrote: > > Hi Alvaro, > > please see inline (##PP): > > On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote: > > On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com > > >) wrote: > > > > Peter: > > > > Hi! > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > COMMENT: > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some work: > >> > > >> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the 128-255 range? > >> > >> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored" Do we nee to say > >> the same here again? > > > > Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in the > > LSAs when used for MTR. > > > > What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV? > > > > For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with one and only > > one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT-ID is not > > known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check? > > ##PP > ok, I have added the following statement: > > "If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in > [RFC4915], the > BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." > > > > > > >> > > >> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured with a valid BFR-id, the value > >> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279]." I looked in rfc8279 for > >> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this instead: "The value 0 is not a > >> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "invalid" is the same as "not > >> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent. > >> > >> would you agree with: > >> > >> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as illegal in > >> [RFC8279]. > > > > Yeah, that’s fine. > > > > Side comment: it’s a shame that rfc8279 chose “illegal†to describe a > > value that can be used. > > > > > >> > > >> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advertising duplicates MUST be > >> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id." How are BFRs that > >> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated? > >> > >> what about: > >> > >> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id" > > > > Sorry…the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? What needs to be > > done by the receiver? > > rfc8279, section 5 says: > > " If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both advertised the > same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an error. > Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A is > functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value N in > the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been assigned to the > given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the packet needs > to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C. > > This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicast > traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioning > error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them > receive each other's traffic. > > > ... > > If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particular > sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST interpret > that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR does not > have > a BFR-id in that sub-domain." > > > So I rewrote the section as: > > "All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid BFR-IDs > for a > given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is detected > by the > BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279]." > > > > > > > >> > > >> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value not supported in > >> > rfc8296? > >> > >> what about: > >> > >> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match any of the > >> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsulation > >> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." > > > > ok > > > > > >> > > >> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs advertised by the > >> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, the advertising router > >> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-TLVs." If an overlap > >> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising the overlap) are > >> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right? The text is not > >> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the BFR that advertised > >> > last (and resulted in the detection happening). > >> > >> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advertises the > >> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs it > >> advertises. > > > > Yeah…sorry…overlooked that first part. > > > > > >> > > >> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What is a "valid" label? > >> > >> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we specified earlier > >> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost bits represent > >> the first label" and any value should be fine. > > > > Well…there are some reserved values… rfc3032… > > > > How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have been > defined in > rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. I have > removed the following text: > > "All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER sub-TLV > MUST be > ignored. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > ... > > > >> > > >> > (2) Security Considerations > >> > > >> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an attacker could simply > >> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges and have a significant > >> > impact on the network. > >> > >> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and existing > >> text covers that: > >> > >> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to one > >> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, > >> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in [RFC7474] > >> SHOULD be used." > > > > I’ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks this is ok. > > > >> > > >> > (3) IANA Considerations > >> > > >> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is a Sub-TLV of the BIER > >> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is allocated from the OSPF > >> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new registry for sub-TLVs for > >> > the BIER Sub-TLV. > >> > >> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines sub-TLVs > >> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs". > >> > >> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do so :) > > > > Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in the > > registry itself. > > > > We’re good then. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Alvaro. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > From nobody Fri Mar 2 12:42:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504F3127010 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 12:42:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: 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PC9odG1sPg0K --_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A1A768nkgeml514mbxchi_-- From nobody Sat Mar 3 03:52:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1510B12895E; Sat, 3 Mar 2018 03:52:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.73.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152007797503.8404.3685326910557975650@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2018 03:52:55 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-05.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2018 11:52:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BGP Extensions for BIER Authors : Xiaohu Xu Mach Chen Keyur Patel IJsbrand Wijnands Antoni Przygienda Filename : draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-05.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2018-03-03 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is a new multicast forwarding architecture which doesn't require an explicit tree-building protocol and doesn't require intermediate routers to maintain any multicast state. BIER is applicable in a multi-tenant data center network environment for efficient delivery of Broadcast, Unknown-unicast and Multicast (BUM) traffic while eliminating the need for maintaining a huge amount of multicast state in the underlay. This document describes BGP extensions for advertising the BIER-specific information. These extensions are applicable in those multi-tenant data centers where BGP instead of IGP is deployed as an underlay for network reachability advertisement. These extensions may also be applicable in other scenarios. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Mar 4 17:40:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB691201FA for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 17:40:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NMEkQWIO_obJ for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 17:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9604A124C27 for ; 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Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:50:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35dQpAi9qBDP for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7CD812E8E8 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9A158C4C5 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:50:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 80633B0DC40; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:50:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:50:28 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180305215028.GB15215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] FYI: [internet-drafts@ietf.org: New Version Notification for draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00.txt] X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 21:50:36 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org ----- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 13:42:16 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Toerless Eckert Subject: New Version Notification for draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Toerless Eckert and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework Revision: 00 Title: Framework for Traffic Engineering with BIER-TE forwarding (Bit Index Explicit Replication with Traffic Engineering) Document date: 2018-03-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 19 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00 Abstract: BIER-TE is an application-state free, (loose) source routed multicast forwarding method where every hop and destination is identified via bits in a bitstring of the data packets. It is described in [I-D.ietf-bier-te-arch]. BIER-TE is a variant of [RFC8279] in support of such explicit path engineering. This document described the traffic engineering control framework for use with the BIER-TE forwarding plane: How to enable the ability to calculate paths and integrate this forwarding plane into an overall TE solution. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Mar 5 13:55:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7088E1243FE for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7WErL265sed for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82EAF120727 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8792058C4C5 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:55:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 61103B0DC40; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:55:49 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:55:49 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180305215549.GC15215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] FYI: [internet-drafts@ietf.org: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination-03.txt] X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 21:55:55 -0000 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Toerless Eckert , Pascal Thubert , Zacharie Brodard , Hao Jiang Subject: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination-03.txt A new version of I-D, draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination Revision: 03 Title: BIER-TE extensions for Packet Replication and Elimination Function (PREF) and OAM Document date: 2018-03-03 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 15 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination-03.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination-03 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination-03 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination-03 Abstract: This specification extends Bit Index Explicit Replication - Traffic Engineering (BIER-TE) forwarding to support in the data plane the DetNet Packet Replication and Elimination Functions (PREF). It also provides traceability of links/adjacencies where replication and loss happen, in a manner that is agnostic to the forwarding information (OAM). Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Mar 5 13:56:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DF9126DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4PEOxgc6uMlr for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61E13120727 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568A058C4C5 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:56:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 3F536B0DC40; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:56:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:56:42 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180305215642.GD15215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] FYI: [internet-drafts@ietf.org: New Version Notification for draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00.txt] X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 21:56:48 -0000 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Toerless Eckert , Pascal Thubert , Rachel Huang , Naiwen Wei Subject: New Version Notification for draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Rachel Huang and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation Revision: 00 Title: Encapsulation for BIER-TE Document date: 2018-03-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00 Abstract: This document proposes an enhanced encapsulation for BIER to support BIER, BIER-TE and a control word. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Mar 5 13:58:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9E5126DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:58:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gu0pIz80tsmU for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7ED8412EAA5 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D03358C4C5 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:57:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 75C86B0DC40; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:57:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:57:54 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180305215754.GE15215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] FYI: [internet-drafts@ietf.org: New Version Notification for draft-eckert-bier-te-frr-03.txt] X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 21:58:03 -0000 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 11:40:59 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Toerless Eckert , Gregory Cauchie , Michael Menth , Wolfgang Braun , Gregory Cauchie Subject: New Version Notification for draft-eckert-bier-te-frr-03.txt A new version of I-D, draft-eckert-bier-te-frr-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Toerless Eckert and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-eckert-bier-te-frr Revision: 03 Title: Protection Methods for BIER-TE Document date: 2018-03-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 16 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr-03.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr-03 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eckert-bier-te-frr-03 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eckert-bier-te-frr-03 Abstract: This document proposes protection methods for the BIER-TE architecture [I-D.ietf-bier-te-arch]. These include 1+1 (live-live) path/tree [RFC7431] redundancy, 1:1 path/tree protection, as well as fast reroute (FRR) methods. The latter may protect against link and/ or node failures and leverage infrastructure tunnels, BIER-in-BIER encapsulation, or header modification for implementation. In particular, this memo describes FRR for BIER-TE in detail. FRR for BIER-TE requires support from the BIER-TE controller and the BFRs that are attached to a link/adjacency for which FRR protection is desired. FRR relies on the BIER header described in [RFC8279] which is also used by BIER-TE. It does not require extensions or modifications to existing BIER-TE tables. However, the presented FRR procedures need some additional forwarding plane logic on the BFR. An additional table is needed that carries information about pre- computed backup paths. When a failure is detected, the information from this table is used to modify the bitstring in the BIER header before forwarding a packet over a backup path. To prevent undesired packet duplication, packets should be tunneled on the backup paths. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Mar 5 14:04:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8174E1243FE for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:04:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LnHczGIGedOG for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x22c.google.com (mail-qt0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A67126D85 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id g60so22251157qtd.11 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:04:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:cc; bh=oEl8A5pfCzTK6hCFoA8D++/pT0aeVImzUAeRvqMPVyY=; b=YESYBK8m7GkzsaecI+V56MAxFjKPihSkxuWtenIsKLq18Dynp10bKuqrzRb+QoJtA8 pfxOBIYBWR4DliIghdtS4Brii+ZifmmSpzIvTy0pe4wlUV0jDtAlv11DhMVXo5ZRBX8V baDeMvJ3hBu8phQvsH8STC7Q1YYlIsH2DM5Z1nmwDizuxVDj0yW5tWfIq/OvU/T+2MKP +Xqiiw9bQBfSrvpsUmtAzHdUTCr34lHGK+D1Kzsyy42MSIhBEIKYkNB6U1LoNUeQ/5qu SX7GcmJ1KhO6fNMsbC2qihsBSeuWDBDz6zK0szAzN7ZiH3Aa/EKtLWy7TISUfHpJpHBf OwvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:cc; bh=oEl8A5pfCzTK6hCFoA8D++/pT0aeVImzUAeRvqMPVyY=; b=BInt1zat2876aOUx5hQUPxf0Kxjk8w4qWqhZ2ru3zmk1ANyeWXaeaPS25+9ZAwwE2a manR/SJoHk5vclfkGWDrwT+0j0P3wjBBWMkp2ZWYYyzXzL602KHRAjONRhPFANW3JPPk IruEk6+CtrwKC+aKfJvKQO4QXye0CJ3Xf6MiulLW8IAEZpZsdJFLYvBFXf4tZrpseenk xt7WHBqFF9BAmcXdadcelDNeylng1LI32cEviznewI0s4xqnA6DyRRHy2TD0+V6ORU/Z f4dTTC9k8aH102+pnwVqqjzFJhdbdITmmVzFOAFJJicW3OTIQL48+KDOwwWlmxJpgsNE EgEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7GNZkcIFN/ppMMWFDvLq0Z6sw0/YhVsYTQlEK/nLfV8YZ4qGFKq wi0fRGIFPT9pKEgsD4rHKqmcovhrhLSt0YB0fCmBhMqOipo= X-Received: by 10.200.26.55 with SMTP id v52mt28261002qtj.53.1520287457947; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:04:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.94.235 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:04:17 -0800 (PST) From: Stig Venaas Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:04:17 -0800 Message-ID: Cc: BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions has wrong BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV length X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:04:20 -0000 Hi I just noticed that the draft says the length of the BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is 4 octets! 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Max SI | Label | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |BS Len | Reserved | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Type: 10 Length: 4 octets Stig From nobody Mon Mar 5 14:13:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7768E1273E2; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:13:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LBiYQFK6CHop; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x22d.google.com (mail-ot0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D29D12E9D9; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:13:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id m22so16466210otf.10; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:13:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=M22vDqFZEF4iswF+Ru3TfJNkbO0K3UCVp1PraRKo1AU=; b=QsoQOpdrrXaVipFFdgCyMIK0JYv0fTO/qdljeY/W7reav2fgIQaL2k7E8UhcGZm+7n 24wlMfwqVT4FJ1mmBBvd4Eks5FylXO5lDcf+0W0T44C9BUBXowk5jkI/mIBuAl/FkZhP C1Azfa9vc/K6AatYxdVenlWYV3RxBNvINz4tSz0rbFTlKnICzTJhg2hLaQiuqAXutqu/ GeHwDZAdl3nZZZK359CdLKZCbithORhQk1DWncbzTgW6cj+LxASy1aCU/scCIUrfZ3BH jDGcrBApYggViA8MUt4Kjk0ph3qJ/59gznA5zXoWM9+gufHnNEa3T0A9NLMgPhWskMbw p1jA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=M22vDqFZEF4iswF+Ru3TfJNkbO0K3UCVp1PraRKo1AU=; b=SljMcEqpmIoV+HuRxnXRodMKMpQS5A95pSft3osYnyyWvfA7pECYvYd4T01YCdwFIz JISn/obJz3AAyl+mwezWWjuFdYV9l03nya82iZM5768HTEbbAqIU8y1bexeg8Z3Wqajo DQCIBzyX2HGDtOoEFZp/vAA/82RCzOPdPD/kNRaaAhaHJc2SNMDjtnIcxW6zLUShBz7L /rutZKI8YMdwcUx2aloqeM706+yFLZQE/4MRKUKxLpNlDvhOU23nw9dNggImQC/rRz90 XrSMderiS/3a856rek29XxIc7tr/Vq5hruquWBEahrrbXUGFrByu8O5RYFDVPijH1g/E 5I+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Fctz/eZRilaIvwHscRugsWKso5btkPDZ8WHRyo8ojTuNiQXa6L ogkVT1SS21rjbx2DSDtrGT8E7SrSJ3r6da2wmgDApQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsHR0EyM/9jaTMw3vpjSGm9b3HMXpC/JYxi6NC8yO+/HwHmAncYaq0h0+oHXyfXa/ha7JnjuV3zBPq9uQMcCSQ= X-Received: by 10.157.3.70 with SMTP id 64mr11167884otv.258.1520288005449; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:13:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.68.57 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:13:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Alia Atlas Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:13:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: Stig Venaas Cc: BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c03d0f8856ccd0566b1a277" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions has wrong BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV length X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:13:32 -0000 --94eb2c03d0f8856ccd0566b1a277 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Stig, Thanks for catching that! Regards, Alia On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 5:04 PM, Stig Venaas wrote: > Hi > > I just noticed that the draft says the length of the BIER MPLS > Encapsulation Sub-TLV is 4 octets! > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Type | Length | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Max SI | Label | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |BS Len | Reserved | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Type: 10 > > Length: 4 octets > > Stig > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --94eb2c03d0f8856ccd0566b1a277 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stig,

Thanks for catching that!

Regards,
Alia

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 5:04 PM, Stig Ve= naas <stig@venaas.com> wrote:
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--94eb2c03d0f8856ccd0566b1a277-- From nobody Mon Mar 5 15:32:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47AAE12EAF3; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:31:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jpzdiiR0E4kg; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7265B126B6E; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADCE58C4B1; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 00:31:32 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 209AFB0DC42; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 00:31:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 00:31:32 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: teas@ietf.org, teas-chairs@ietf.org Cc: akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180305233131.GJ15215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Request for ietf101 teas slot [internet-drafts@ietf.org: New Version Notification for draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00.txt] X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 23:31:57 -0000 Dear TEAS chairs I would like to bring the subject draft to TEAS to start the discussion about the TE architecture to support BIER-TE forwarding. BIER-TE was accepted as WG item in BIER WG in january, but the BIER charter also intends to start new control plane work in the respective WGs, aka: TEAS for traffic engineering overall. Will also reach out to PCE/IDR for the more specific aspects (mentioned in draft). Cheers Toerless (hope nobody will express dietary concerns bringing BIER to TEAS ;-) ----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org ----- Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 13:42:16 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Toerless Eckert Subject: New Version Notification for draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Toerless Eckert and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework Revision: 00 Title: Framework for Traffic Engineering with BIER-TE forwarding (Bit Index Explicit Replication with Traffic Engineering) Document date: 2018-03-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 19 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework-00 Abstract: BIER-TE is an application-state free, (loose) source routed multicast forwarding method where every hop and destination is identified via bits in a bitstring of the data packets. It is described in [I-D.ietf-bier-te-arch]. BIER-TE is a variant of [RFC8279] in support of such explicit path engineering. This document described the traffic engineering control framework for use with the BIER-TE forwarding plane: How to enable the ability to calculate paths and integrate this forwarding plane into an overall TE solution. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat ----- End forwarded message ----- -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Mar 5 22:07:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3672126C2F for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:07:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jEQA0TCr_QOr for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E3EF124217 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 79247EB268BDC for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:07:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:07:36 +0000 Received: from NKGEML513-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.231]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:07:27 +0800 From: "Huangyihong (Rachel)" To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHTtDBBX99OI7oIu06GlwR/n/0GnqPCuR2g Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:07:27 +0000 Message-ID: <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB9C69BF3E@nkgeml513-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.153.152] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] FW: New Version Notification for draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 06:07:41 -0000 SGksDQoNCldlIHBvc3RlZCBhIG5ldyBkcmFmdCB0byBkaXNjdXNzIHdoYXQgdGhlIGVuY2Fwc3Vs YXRpb24gb2YgQklFUi1URSB3b3VsZCBiZSBsaWtlLiBUaGlzIG5ldyBwcm9wb3NhbCBzdXBwb3J0 cyBCRUlSLCBCSUVSLVRFIGFuZCB0aGUgdXNhZ2UgaW4gRGV0TmV0IERhdGEgUGxhbmUuIENvbW1l bnRzIGFyZSBhcHByZWNpYXRlZC4NCg0KQlIsDQpSYWNoZWwgKE9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiB0aGUgYXV0 aG9ycykNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0 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NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 13:15:15 +0000 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 21:15:06 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: "bier@ietf.org" CC: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Thread-Topic: [bier] Question regarding BAR-IPA in BIER-OSPF /BIER-ISIS Thread-Index: AdO1SzJReMwb0jgvRjCZzNjEuRZzKg== Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 13:15:06 +0000 Message-ID: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A1B04F@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.217.214] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A1B04Fnkgeml514mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] [bier] Question 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Subject: Re: [Bier] [bier] Question regarding BAR-IPA in BIER-OSPF /BIER-ISIS X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 13:28:43 -0000 --_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A1B06Cnkgeml514mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U29ycnksIEkgdGFrZSBiYWNrIG15IHF1ZXN0aW9uLg0KSSB0aGluayBJIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgaXQu DQpFdmVuIHdoZW4gQkFSIGlzIGZpeGVkLCB0aGUgY2FsY3VsYXRpb24gY2FuIHN0aWxsIGJlIG1v ZGlmaWVkL2VuaGFuY2VkL3JlcGxhY2VkIGJ5IHVzaW5nIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IElQQS9SQy4NCg0K Q2FsY3VsYXRpb24gaXMgYSBncmVhdCB3b3JkLg0KDQpYaWVqaW5ncm9uZw0KDQpGcm9tOiBCSUVS IFttYWlsdG86Ymllci1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgWGllamluZ3JvbmcN ClNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDA2LCAyMDE4IDk6MTUgUE0NClRvOiBiaWVyQGlldGYub3Jn 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id 585C6B0DC54; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:38:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:38:11 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: IJsbrand Wijnands Cc: Eric C Rosen , gjshep@gmail.com, BIER WG Message-ID: <20180306173811.GA5640@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <938789da-1902-1a0e-98af-b2476204be62@juniper.net> <2B0FFBC1-FB91-4A6C-9800-69401C76B095@cisco.com> <2B084F68-4854-4534-9F7D-A13A78E360E6@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2B084F68-4854-4534-9F7D-A13A78E360E6@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 17:38:18 -0000 Ice, Eric, *: Inline, On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 06:59:47PM +0100, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > router bier > encapsulation non-mpls bsl-sd-si bsl 256 ^^^^^^^^^ > sub-domain 1 > source loopback 0 > bift-id auto ^^^^^^^^^^^^ probably redundant/default > ! Of course, cli is IETF contraband, but: Can we not try to overcome Erics concern by making sure the BIER YANG data model has a mandatory way to provision bift-id's both via "flat-bift" and "bsl-sd-si". Aka: the "flat-bift" would the option that (the way i understand it) Eric is concerned about. Likewise the auto part would be good to describe in the YANG model (i assume that you somehow try to figure out the max SI needed, but not quite sure how). I have always been a fan of first working out the operator interface and dedude from that the required protocol details. Not the other way around. Before YANG we're almost not even allowed to talk about this idea (operator interface not standardized, go away). With YANG now it seems we do have the chance to also start doing this in the IETF. Cheers Toerless > ! > ! > > I would think that such configuration is the minimum required on every BIER router (unless there are default that don???t need to be required) independent of the vendor. > > Based on the above we can generate a BIFT-id following the draft proposal. Two different vendors having BIER configured will be interoperable because they generate the same BIFT-id, without having to configure it. > > It is also possible to configure: > > router bier > encapsulation non-mpls bsl 256 > sub-domain 1 > source loopback 0 > bift-id 10000 > ! > ! > ! > > Now the operator needs to manage value ???10000??? and make sure its configure on every router the same. > > Thx, > > Ice. > > > > On 27 Feb 2018, at 18:46, Eric C Rosen wrote: > > > > On 2/27/2018 12:25 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > >> If we want to be interoperable among different vendors, I think it is good to have this documented. > > > > This is the sort of statement that really worries me. What is the interoperability issue? As long as a vendor allows the assignment of BIFT-ids, interoperability should be possible without the need for any particular suggested way of constructing the BIFT-ids. > > > > I'm not sure we can say both that the draft is informational, and that it is needed for multi-vendor interoperability. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Mar 6 09:43:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BC212895E for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:43:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 42q3rD4DNT_7 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 753741270AC for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E3258C5A0; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:43:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 03E36B0DC54; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:43:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:43:38 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eric C Rosen Cc: gjshep@gmail.com, BIER WG Message-ID: <20180306174338.GB5640@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <938789da-1902-1a0e-98af-b2476204be62@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <938789da-1902-1a0e-98af-b2476204be62@juniper.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 17:43:47 -0000 Eric, * Q1: Is there any text you could point me to that would give me an idea how a non bsl-sd-si encoding of the bift-id would be beneficial (non-mpls of course) ? Q2: What would be the harm of deploying software (non-mpls) that would only support this bift-id encoding ? Specific example welcome. Thanks Toerless On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 09:58:45AM -0500, Eric C Rosen wrote: > I am strongly opposed to the adoption of this draft. > > The premise of the draft is that in non-MPLS networks, operators may > want to assign a domain-wide unique BIFT-id that denotes, in every > BFR, the BIFT associated with a given triple. > > That may be true.  However, there are many procedures that can be > used to assign domain-wide unique BIFT-ids.  There is no reason for > the WG to give the appearance of endorsing any one procedure over > any of the thousands of others.  This is really a decision for the > network operators.  So I think the document is not very useful. > > I do however think the document is harmful.  It will inevitably > result in the deployment of software (if not hardware) that cannot > process non-MPLS BIER packets in which the BIFT-id is not formed > according to the rules of this draft. > > Yes, yes, the draft says that the use of this encoding is OPTIONAL, > and the draft is merely Informational.  That won't help us much when > some implementation (either from a vendor, or open source) gets > deployed that requires the use of this encoding. > > Drafts that are harmful but not useful should not be adopted by the WG. > > If this draft proceeds, I suggest it be turned into an Independent > Submission, so that it can be made clear that the draft just > describes a suggestion by the authors. > > > > > > On 2/26/2018 1:07 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > >In Singapore we had solid support to > >adopt draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding as a WG draft. > > > >This is a call to the list for adoption. Please read and reply > >with/without support to this thread: > > > >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding/ > > > >Thanks, > >Greg > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >BIER mailing list > >BIER@ietf.org > >https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=-DXB84eU9m4cIlq2OOcCJCQQAwJXQQswyu3F0kG0VNo&m=l-KKk7BthqSx7OjcMbxS5nkQZLR40fjA3UQvFQzbEas&s=AjVaQdEtidRkJYHuMaOE3AynPR5gmY4zjT7WulICH1Q&e= > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Mar 6 13:46:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D5B124B18 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 13:46:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jlL97Cn4hVmc for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 13:46:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12F661204DA for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 13:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4D858C4D0; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 22:45:58 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id BEEC0B0DC58; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 22:45:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 22:45:58 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Shepherd Cc: BIER WG Message-ID: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 21:46:06 -0000 I am uncertain how useful the outcome of this work is as long as its "informational", "local decision..." I found Ice's explanation about the goals to Eric very useful. If we would scope the work to include the following 3 points i would give it a very enthusiastic approve as WG item: (1)Goal (described in doc): BIFT-ID Encoding to minimixe provisioning complexity: Make non-MPLS option as easy (or easier) than MPLS encap: Avoid to configure BIFT-ID <-> {SD,SI} mappings for every BIFT on every node (or introduce new IGP signaling to auto-negotiate it). (2) Target: IMHO should be same standards track as 8296. Probably update RFC8296. (3) Draft should become normative reference to draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang. To support this draft, YANG model just needs to introduce encap option "bier-encap-bsl-sd-si" (some name). Nothing more needed! I may be persuaded that there is enough value of not standardizing it (2), not documenting how to use it (1) or not making it supported via the YANG model (3). I would just like to understand why we would like to cripple the work so much. Without it, the non-MPLS encap will not catch up with MPLS. Is that the goal of the WG ? Technically, two points: a) However this work proceeds, we would need to add parameters to the YANG draft to support the "arbitrary" BIFT-ID assignment. I think this would mean some "flat-bift-id" encapsulation type and a list of per (SD,SI) BIFT-ID parameters in the appropriate place of the YANG data model. Make this mandatory to support. The mandatory need to support those flat BIFT-ID encoding parameters is my best idea how to ensure Erics concern does not happen: platforms that will not allow you do use any BIFT-ID. b) I think it would be great if we had inband recognition of misconfigured BIFT-IDs without the need to depend on the control plane. Given how the BSL aready has a header field, it seems we would not need it in the BIFT-ID, but could use (some of) those bits to identify the encoding, and make this mechanism be one encoding value. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:07:05AM -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote: > In Singapore we had solid support to > adopt draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding as a WG draft. > > This is a call to the list for adoption. Please read and reply with/without > support to this thread: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding/ > > Thanks, > Greg > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Mar 6 14:18:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021AC1242F5; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:18:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nHOcQsxaqKEZ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADCBD1204DA; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id h21so1160710wmd.1; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:18:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7aOgwFXNpo+pg2N0F5Tu8NyZFBWg34CRAj4Xh1PXk28=; b=gpDycI+6ahVVTzkwzYFJOAsyvBYs6vvzmtDuZtbjVqhQqq0j4Awo502RZBL1mIbCKI mA/9gGCIGC8wU5ss1VhL6j606Hzf2UrJ+hXo30kVpD+A9LFVoWGkBENitvZXgT9hBHSY dbgjcAFylbqrmQ7pVF/YT5k0zv2bZygoNsSP5VnbhwGeA1Fx0QtMXRWl79RY1gJliWLJ +7NMXvKklzV8LziGUyKXA7yohDiets6166R2TUmw2VeGffVNOyT9kMfT8wQ6guX/1S34 kLn1E337VSnN5F0HKb5o4XPnmDoz98WPDfMlR0e6wFXjqmoL3ANXqyUjaHj8T6L/ZSS8 UKRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7aOgwFXNpo+pg2N0F5Tu8NyZFBWg34CRAj4Xh1PXk28=; b=le3vEZQUMTCy4wWlX2zQOpZ2R0gF2ORry9llTOZOflaqcC1fCeFqZsJxj8D1LkcS0C H+/cxGJGjroRw5bjWx0ri8ft4on6AOUxoTT4bnnk34w+39qZUCY0j1NFKtjGmMlaRfjI NSH4ADPFhkencBqfCGMWHtDILRhLGFvyLPgK2CqBNWxD8lrps7wXKn9WRcAMSRldmi4L HAyYh7E56p1zNfR/V4hN827x0x96EJblqAXVkuVJGO/Jzn6GmV2gUlLkheEaJlSwStr7 TKv19XzJT1GX6ivHjpZBeLkNXll0loF2GccuENcgXrCkNhfA8gwapV4l6BvdEi5E7Ysc LdIw== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAud08e07tkfyXCN8z5C859pfh4v5s7YaoAc6EkBqswooDR+Y+5 OtcO0oH0yafmznk/XRiGow1v3MW6QkLGWaK3edY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELslBAXO8iC3iBMYuYrzoLRq2FoJUNe3GnitvllOiBr3HJeUK8JNKv1WQMADyKAQMyLC51Bt9Iu2WVoVTs2aC6w= X-Received: by 10.80.182.141 with SMTP id d13mr24579934ede.250.1520374689206; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:18:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:17:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:17:28 -0800 Message-ID: To: Alvaro Retana Cc: Peter Psenak , The IESG , Reshad Rahman , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c1c7c469a6e0566c5d133" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 22:18:15 -0000 --f403045c1c7c469a6e0566c5d133 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-09 limited last call finished now. I see the document moved to publication. On OSPF I still see Suresh & Eric in discuss. Peter, did we address those comments ? thanks --- tony On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote= : > ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem addressed adequatly. > Outstanding points I don't think need addressing further > > * invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity ospf vs isis signalling. > That's really a defect of RFC8279 where we should have been stricter with > language. Not a problem of IGP drafts > * registry: I think that will be cleaned up during publication process, > i.e. registry created and references taken out of the drafts > * no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given RFC8279 > is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this restriction. The > length clause would not change any other considerations anyway such as > behavior when 2 routers advertise the same prefix in an area with > conflicting BIER information which is addressed in the draft already. > > Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all following > procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to IESG for publicati= on > ... > > Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call limited to changes in > versions -14 and -15 > > thanks > > --- tony > > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana > wrote: > >> Peter: >> >> Hi! Thanks for addressing my comment! >> >> Alvaro. >> >> On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com) >> wrote: >> >> Hi Alvaro, >> >> please see inline (##PP): >> >> On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote: >> > On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com >> > ) wrote: >> > >> > Peter: >> > >> > Hi! >> > >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >> >> >> > COMMENT: >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >> >> >> > >> >> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some work: >> >> > >> >> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the 128-255 >> range? >> >> >> >> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored" Do we nee to >> say >> >> the same here again? >> > >> > Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in the >> > LSAs when used for MTR. >> > >> > What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV? >> > >> > For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with one and >> only >> > one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT-ID is no= t >> > known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check? >> >> ##PP >> ok, I have added the following statement: >> >> "If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in [RFC4915], the >> BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured with a valid >> BFR-id, the value >> >> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279]." I looked in >> rfc8279 for >> >> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this instead: "The value >> 0 is not a >> >> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "invalid" is the same as >> "not >> >> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent. >> >> >> >> would you agree with: >> >> >> >> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as illegal in >> >> [RFC8279]. >> > >> > Yeah, that=E2=80=99s fine. >> > >> > Side comment: it=E2=80=99s a shame that rfc8279 chose =E2=80=9Cillegal= =E2=80=9D to describe a >> > value that can be used. >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advertising duplicate= s >> MUST be >> >> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id." How are BFRs >> that >> >> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated? >> >> >> >> what about: >> >> >> >> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id" >> > >> > Sorry=E2=80=A6the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? What nee= ds to be >> > done by the receiver? >> >> rfc8279, section 5 says: >> >> " If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both advertised the >> same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an error. >> Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A is >> functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value N in >> the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been assigned to the >> given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the packet needs >> to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C. >> >> This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicast >> traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioning >> error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them >> receive each other's traffic. >> >> >> ... >> >> If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particular >> sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST interpret >> that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR does not have >> a BFR-id in that sub-domain." >> >> >> So I rewrote the section as: >> >> "All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid BFR-IDs for a >> given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is detected by the >> BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279]." >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value not >> supported in >> >> > rfc8296? >> >> >> >> what about: >> >> >> >> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match any of the >> >> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsulation >> >> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." >> > >> > ok >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs >> advertised by the >> >> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, the >> advertising router >> >> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-TLVs." If a= n >> overlap >> >> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising the overlap= ) >> are >> >> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right? The text >> is not >> >> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the BFR that >> advertised >> >> > last (and resulted in the detection happening). >> >> >> >> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advertises th= e >> >> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs >> it >> >> advertises. >> > >> > Yeah=E2=80=A6sorry=E2=80=A6overlooked that first part. >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What is a "valid" label? >> >> >> >> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we specified earlie= r >> >> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost bits represen= t >> >> the first label" and any value should be fine. >> > >> > Well=E2=80=A6there are some reserved values=E2=80=A6 rfc3032=E2=80=A6 >> > >> >> How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have been defined in >> rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. I have >> removed the following text: >> >> "All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER sub-TLV MUST be >> ignored. >> >> thanks, >> Peter >> >> > >> > ... >> > >> >> > >> >> > (2) Security Considerations >> >> > >> >> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an attacker could >> simply >> >> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges and have a >> significant >> >> > impact on the network. >> >> >> >> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and existing >> >> text covers that: >> >> >> >> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to on= e >> >> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, >> >> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in >> [RFC7474] >> >> SHOULD be used." >> > >> > I=E2=80=99ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks this is= ok. >> > >> >> > >> >> > (3) IANA Considerations >> >> > >> >> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is a Sub-TLV of >> the BIER >> >> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is allocated from >> the OSPF >> >> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new registry for >> sub-TLVs for >> >> > the BIER Sub-TLV. >> >> >> >> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines sub-TLVs >> >> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs". >> >> >> >> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do so :) >> > >> > Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in the >> > registry itself. >> > >> > We=E2=80=99re good then. >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > Alvaro. >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> > --f403045c1c7c469a6e0566c5d133 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
limited last call finished now. I see the document mo= ved to publication.

On OSPF I still see Suresh & Eric in d= iscuss. Peter, did we address those comments ?

thanks
--- tony



On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Tony= Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
ok, I went over = it once more, all issues seem addressed adequatly. Outstanding points I don= 't think need addressing further

* invalid vs. illegal BFR= -id language disparity ospf vs isis signalling. That's really a defect = of RFC8279 where we should have been stricter with language. Not a problem = of IGP drafts
* registry: I think that will be cleaned up during p= ublication process, i.e. registry created and references taken out of the d= rafts
* no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is = fine given RFC8279 is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this res= triction. The length clause would not change any other considerations anywa= y such as behavior when 2 routers advertise the same prefix in an area with= conflicting BIER information which is addressed in the draft already.=C2= =A0

Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just = to have it all following procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd'= back to IESG for publication ...

Everyone, this constit= utes a 7 days last call limited to changes in versions -14 and -15

thanks
<= br>
--- t= ony

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro R= etana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
=
Hi!=C2=A0 Thanks for addressing my comme= nt!

Alvaro.

On February 23, = 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com) wrote:

Hi Alvaro,

please see inline (##PP):

On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote:
> On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com
> <mailto:= ppsenak@cisco.com>) wrote:
>
> Peter:
>
> Hi!
>
>> > ----------------------------------------------------= ------------------
>> > COMMENT:
>> > ----------------------------------------------------= ------------------
>> >
>> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some wo= rk:
>> >
>> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the= 128-255 range?
>>
>> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored&quo= t; Do we nee to say
>> the same here again?
>
> Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in = the
> LSAs when used for MTR.
>
> What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV?
>
> For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with o= ne and only
> one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT= -ID is not
> known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check?

##PP
ok, I have added the following statement:

"If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in [RFC4915= ], the =20
BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored."

>
>
>> >
>> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured wit= h a valid BFR-id, the value
>> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279].&quo= t; I looked in rfc8279 for
>> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this= instead: "The value 0 is not a
>> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "inva= lid" is the same as "not
>> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent.
>>
>> would you agree with:
>>
>> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as= illegal in
>> [RFC8279].
>
> Yeah, that=E2=80=99s fine.
>
> Side comment: it=E2=80=99s a shame that rfc8279 chose =E2=80=9Cill= egal=E2=80=9D to describe a
> value that can be used.
>
>
>> >
>> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advert= ising duplicates MUST be
>> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id."= ; How are BFRs that
>> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated?
>>
>> what about:
>>
>> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id"
>
> Sorry=E2=80=A6the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? Wha= t needs to be
> done by the receiver?

rfc8279, section 5 says:

" If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both advertis= ed the
same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an error.
Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A = is
functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value N in
the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been assigned to t= he
given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the packet need= s
to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C.

This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicast
traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioning
error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them
receive each other's traffic.


...

If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particular
sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST interpret
that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR does not hav= e
a BFR-id in that sub-domain."


So I rewrote the section as:

"All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid BFR-IDs for= a =20
given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is detected by the= =20
BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279]."


>
>
>> >
>> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value = not supported in
>> > rfc8296?
>>
>> what about:
>>
>> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match a= ny of the
>> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsula= tion
>> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored."
>
> ok
>
>
>> >
>> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation S= ub-TLVs advertised by the
>> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, th= e advertising router
>> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-T= LVs." If an overlap
>> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising t= he overlap) are
>> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right?= The text is not
>> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the= BFR that advertised
>> > last (and resulted in the detection happening).
>>
>> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advert= ises the
>> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation S= ub-TLVs it
>> advertises.
>
> Yeah=E2=80=A6sorry=E2=80=A6overlooked that first part.
>
>
>> > =09
>> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What= is a "valid" label?
>>
>> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we speci= fied earlier
>> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost b= its represent
>> the first label" and any value should be fine.
>
> Well=E2=80=A6there are some reserved values=E2=80=A6 rfc3032=E2=80= =A6
>

How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have been defined i= n =20
rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. I have =20
removed the following text:

"All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER sub-TLV M= UST be =20
ignored.

thanks,
Peter

>
> ...
>
>> >
>> > (2) Security Considerations
>> >
>> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an at= tacker could simply
>> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges a= nd have a significant
>> > impact on the network.
>>
>> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and ex= isting
>> text covers that:
>>
>> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have = access to one
>> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployme= nts,
>> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in = [RFC7474]
>> SHOULD be used."
>
> I=E2=80=99ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks thi= s is ok.
>
>> >
>> > (3) IANA Considerations
>> >
>> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is= a Sub-TLV of the BIER
>> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is = allocated from the OSPF
>> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new reg= istry for sub-TLVs for
>> > the BIER Sub-TLV.
>>
>> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines= sub-TLVs
>> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs".
>>
>> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do s= o :)
>
> Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in t= he
> registry itself.
>
> We=E2=80=99re good then.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Alvaro.
>


_____________________________________= __________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



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As first: we do not have that in the charter currently as work item so I suggest to poke the AD to expand it. Charters have wiggle room but this seems stretching it unless AD signs off here as this being "Manageability and OAM". And yes, we had adoption in the room & this thread generated good amount of discussion, many in favor. Further observations as individual. On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > I am uncertain how useful the outcome of this work is as long as > its "informational", "local decision..." > > I found Ice's explanation about the goals to Eric very useful. > > If we would scope the work to include the following 3 points i > would give it a very enthusiastic approve as WG item: > > (1)Goal (described in doc): BIFT-ID Encoding to minimixe provisioning > complexity: > Make non-MPLS option as easy (or easier) than MPLS encap: Avoid > to configure BIFT-ID <-> {SD,SI} mappings for every BIFT on every node > (or introduce new IGP signaling to auto-negotiate it). > Provisioning simplicity always a plus. > > (2) Target: IMHO should be same standards track as 8296. Probably update > RFC8296. > While I could agree that it would be good to have a static provisioning possibility I would disagree to make _a_ specific single BIFT-assignment-scheme a standard. > > (3) Draft should become normative reference to draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang. > To support this draft, YANG model just needs to introduce > encap option "bier-encap-bsl-sd-si" (some name). Nothing more needed! > Are we confused here? This is _not_ an encapsulation, this is a BIFT-id assignment scheme. You could achieve all that by not running any IGP (or other signallling) and just assign static MPLS label values on MPLS encoding so strictly speaking no new yang is necessary here IMO if I'm not mistaken. > > I may be persuaded that there is enough value of not standardizing it (2), > not documenting how to use it (1) or not making it supported via the YANG > model (3). I would just like to understand why we would like to cripple > the work so much. Without it, the non-MPLS encap will not catch up with > MPLS. Is that the goal of the WG ? > > Technically, two points: > > a) However this work proceeds, we would need to add parameters to the > YANG draft to support the "arbitrary" BIFT-ID assignment. I think > this would mean some "flat-bift-id" encapsulation type and a > list of per (SD,SI) BIFT-ID parameters in the appropriate place > of the YANG data model. Make this mandatory to support. > > The mandatory need to support those flat BIFT-ID encoding parameters > is my best idea how to ensure Erics concern does not happen: platforms > that will not allow you do use any BIFT-ID. > > Again, I don't see any extensions needed since this is not an encaps. What I see is that we'd have to expose in yang in every encapsulation the BIFT-id as something that can be written/provisioned. This is not only good for static provisioning, this could be valuable for e.g. out-of-band controller signalling > b) I think it would be great if we had inband recognition of misconfigured > BIFT-IDs without the need to depend on the control plane. > > Given how the BSL aready has a header field, it seems we would not > need it in the BIFT-ID, but could use (some of) those bits to identify > the > encoding, and make this mechanism be one encoding value. > > We could start to 'grab bits' in the BIFT-id to identify something but we don't have any, encodings like MPLS took all 20 bits and hence we don't have space and again, "static BIFT-id assignment" does not seem an encapsulation to me ... Moreover, sinking signalling for that into OAM data plane seems like a rather poor idea. Generally true for attempts to push control plane functionality into data plane ... --- tony --f403045c158eee36880566c5fa02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Comments inline ...

As first: we d= o not have that in the charter currently as work item so I suggest to poke = the AD to expand it. Charters have wiggle room but this seems stretching it= unless AD signs off here as this being "Manageability and OAM". = And yes, we had adoption in the room & this thread generated good amoun= t of discussion, many in favor.

Further observations as indiv= idual.

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Toerless Eckert <<= a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
I am uncertain how useful the = outcome of this work is as long as
its "informational", "local decision..."

I found Ice's explanation about the goals to Eric very useful.

If we would scope the work to include the following 3 points i
would give it a very enthusiastic approve as WG item:

(1)Goal (described in doc): BIFT-ID Encoding to minimixe provisioning compl= exity:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Make non-MPLS option as easy (or easier) than MPLS encap: Avoi= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to configure BIFT-ID <-> {SD,SI} mappings for every BIFT= on every node
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(or introduce new IGP signaling to auto-negotiate it).

Provisioning simplicity always a plus.
=C2=A0

(2) Target: IMHO should be same standards track as 8296. Probably update =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC8296.

While I could ag= ree that it would be good to have a static provisioning possibility I would= disagree to make _a_ specific single BIFT-assignment-scheme a standard.
=C2=A0

(3) Draft should become normative reference to draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang. =C2=A0 =C2=A0To support this draft, YANG model just needs to introduce
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encap option "bier-encap-bsl-sd-si" (some name). Not= hing more needed!

Are we confused here?= This is _not_ an encapsulation, this is a BIFT-id assignment scheme. You c= ould achieve all that by not running any IGP (or other signallling) and jus= t assign static MPLS label values on MPLS encoding so strictly speaking no = new yang is necessary here IMO if I'm not mistaken.
=C2= =A0

I may be persuaded that there is enough value of not standardizing it (2),<= br> not documenting how to use it (1) or not making it supported via the YANG model (3). I would just like to understand why we would like to cripple
the work so much. Without it, the non-MPLS encap will not catch up with
MPLS. Is that the goal of the WG ?

Technically, two points:

a) However this work proceeds, we would need to add parameters to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0YANG draft to support the "arbitrary" BIFT-ID assign= ment. I think
=C2=A0 =C2=A0this would mean some "flat-bift-id" encapsulation ty= pe and a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0list of per (SD,SI) BIFT-ID parameters in the appropriate plac= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the YANG data model. Make this mandatory to support.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The mandatory need to support those flat BIFT-ID encoding para= meters
=C2=A0 =C2=A0is my best idea how to ensure Erics concern does not happen: p= latforms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that will not allow you do use any BIFT-ID.


Again, I don't see any extensions = needed since this is not an encaps. What I see is that we'd have to exp= ose in yang in every encapsulation the BIFT-id as something that can be wri= tten/provisioned. This is not only good for static provisioning, this could= be valuable for e.g. out-of-band controller signalling
=C2= =A0
b) I think it would be great if we had inband recognition of misconfigured<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIFT-IDs without the need to depend on the control plane.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Given how the BSL aready has a header field, it seems we would= not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0need it in the BIFT-ID, but could use (some of) those bits to = identify the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoding, and make this mechanism be one encoding value.
=C2=A0
We could start to 'grab bits' in th= e BIFT-id to identify something but we don't have any,=C2=A0 encodings = like MPLS took all 20 bits and hence we don't have space and again, &qu= ot;static BIFT-id assignment" does not seem an encapsulation to me ...= Moreover, sinking signalling for that into OAM data plane seems like a rat= her poor idea. Generally true for attempts to push control plane functional= ity into data plane ...

--- tony <= br>
--f403045c158eee36880566c5fa02-- From nobody Tue Mar 6 14:44:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326F71204DA for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:44:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RVrR-MQ535E0 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F7501200FC for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id s206so20070159wme.0 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uzEaaNsnyg0GDtDd44m2nhLpn7wIjtWYebUzyV+dOAo=; b=OZ/n6ro17FMvuFcEb9cFk5QZdjIyFD7MbL4ys+AReZaEl5Op9ai6LYoKBozyMC3FnS ouiL2oYQITyfKAZotO3hxzOpfEOxU1oTtQxosAFeBOaDKwmZl3PpkZ3oyi0+WlwYAr3u QORGUEItFHBazpC0a2+aePo9tAM8h19xVemQ+VZanDRdMnM6d6pgsEq+Po1KbIx2EjQL ER06SdJ2fw4ldmWDRwYnZ3/BrgzKkAEyBC6pI0onA2rIgs1hQ/CgqiFE+tg1zfNRjcDM Eub+nBO8jlDdUCfxUG1xB3MBlIRTng9oZ5nBwam+trju6T+tAVuUTPXWP7ZZSyB1pXZw tGVw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uzEaaNsnyg0GDtDd44m2nhLpn7wIjtWYebUzyV+dOAo=; b=qyImYaO5VhQyGkZow3PNrf7FaP0A6fQX5c/EFPwBUNOU26krT5PFkqAtgVcM+adFs+ XNQikw4r+q5WtHQ2lTpVvoym1os/v457bACG+QiwTzD+z+u0eTV/+Ii1gtmo2YsYT3D8 G0rb4XyfTCKvdwasBLpXuDtZUXA3JoDL5YbRq6ml8DftEJLHI36SvNmkFZSQsBcXyngo Hi+AXEXPzvJYENIngUnJUgmHB8zyIExKxy7QLA7yYAuFsLslOLI7xhEQxV2/5jUlZwdC PvtDtJrtyixzL3hPKJdubnpnnAkc4molZo1E8ttPrVbcY5LjUrxv0Fvhneo6kbs+lopu lItg== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPB5cbg7ZVjAeCF8GOpos/XWeh5E/2QvmDQ2JtjM91MWjL8Wqz4e /084+xELg52Rqtf4WTl7ZhGXzoWhW84SzD7Bv6Bz8UcG X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvoS6XFriXDzTL+jgnxM2sE/ZrD3j47rqq3GUDPc5NBvsS9XKE8mbmAgrTcXKDzbcYJ8L2izJOx1hqAmKQA/hg= X-Received: by 10.80.135.230 with SMTP id 35mr25691297edz.1.1520376251582; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:44:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:43:31 -0800 (PST) From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:43:31 -0800 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c158e668e8c0566c62e19" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Current Slot requests summarized, further ones to this thread please ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 22:44:15 -0000 --f403045c158e668e8c0566c62e19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Slot requests so far, no particular order, please double-check, any further posts to this list, it's spread across multiple mailboxes/threads which is unnecessary - I=E2=80=99d like to have 10-15 minutes to present our new draft draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00. This draft proposes an enhanced encapsulation to support BEIR, BIER-TE and a control word. - draft-zzhang-algorithms, but focus on handling BIER incapable routers; 15 minutes - draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa; 10 minutes - BIER in RIFT (draft-zzhang-bier-rift); 10 minutes (after Sandy's presentation on draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute) - https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-00.txt. I will like to request a presentation slot of 10 to 15 minutes, during the London BIER WG session. - I=E2=80=99d like to request a presentation slot of 15 to 20 minutes to d= iscuss: MVPN using P2MP and BIER (draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp) - draft-venaas-bier-mtud-00.txt: I would like to present this proposal. 15 minutes would be good perhaps. - The Resilience for BIER draft-xiong-bier-resilience-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xiong-bier-resilience/ We're very popular this time it seems, slots will be short ... As general guideline: curtail your excitement for new encapsulations if possible, we only have in charter v6 native encaps & possibly something if it pertains to TE. I can imaging that having BIER tunneling drafts (if anything is necesary) are of interest but thinking we can re-encode BIER packets over Avian carriers is good for 1st of upcoming month but will be hard pressed to find adoption ... Otherwise there is enough control work to finish IDR, BGP-LS, help with Babel and so on ... thanks --- tony --f403045c158e668e8c0566c62e19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Slot requests so far, no particular order, pleas= e double-check, any further posts to this list, it's spread across mult= iple mailboxes/threads which is unnecessary

- I=E2=80=99d like to h= ave 10-15 minutes to present our new draft=20 draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00. This draft proposes an enhanced=20 encapsulation to support BEIR, BIER-TE and a control word.
=C2=A0- draft= -zzhang-algorithms, but focus on handling BIER incapable routers; 15 minute= s
=C2=A0- draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa; 10 minutes
=C2=A0- BIER in RIFT = (draft-zzhang-bier-rift); 10 minutes (after Sandy's presentation on dra= ft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute)
- https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-= purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-00.txt. I will like to request a presen= tation slot of 10 to 15 minutes, during the London BIER WG session.
- = =C2=A0I=E2=80=99d like to request a presentation slot of 15 to 20 minutes t= o discuss: MVPN using P2MP and BIER (draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp)
- d= raft-venaas-bier-mtud-00.txt: I would like to present this proposal. 15 min= utes would be good perhaps.
- The Resilience for BIER draft-xiong-bier-r= esilience-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xiong-bier-resilience/

We're very popular this time it seems, slots will be sh= ort ...


--f403045c158e668e8c0566c62e19-- From nobody Tue Mar 6 14:51:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7901D124319 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:51:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D8XD-wjmTD01 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:51:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr50113.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.5.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80000127863 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:51:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=isRs/tsvZwPmGPE4hcR5lY1LjWg3DZs8u4686k1csaE=; b=N4Pgt0iI2YYHEtFEupajuFR4FoNhYqDnjB5S3qy90LVQ8yG51u5ISHHEEjgLifwsY075UK7PbPR7XQbx3oBHB16S0Qf7ut+AzSIq2damYT5wdSkuoxXkgH7L7niwclZZoVJ4a5pDuQDdZUYRAmGPrgRoJuNNMrEuww1UN7HAT2w= Received: from VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.168.137.146) by VI1PR0701MB2240.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.169.137.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.567.6; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 22:51:34 +0000 Received: from VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::201b:9d7f:75b0:faa1]) by VI1PR0701MB2351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::201b:9d7f:75b0:faa1%8]) with mapi id 15.20.0567.011; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 22:51:34 +0000 From: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" To: Tony Przygienda , BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] Current Slot requests summarized, further ones to this thread please ... 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X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 22:51:50 -0000 --_000_VI1PR0701MB2351F28D271893F1343A13DE91D90VI1PR0701MB2351_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVG9ueQ0KDQpBbHNvIGNhbiB3ZSBhZGQsIDEwIG1pbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1iaWVyLXBp bS1zaWduYWxpbmcsIHRvIGdpdmUgZ3JvdXAgYW4gdXBkYXRlLg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzDQoNCkhvb21h bg0KDQpGcm9tOiBCSUVSIFttYWlsdG86Ymllci1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYg T2YgVG9ueSBQcnp5Z2llbmRhDQpTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCA2LCAyMDE4IDI6NDQgUE0N ClRvOiBCSUVSIFdHIDxiaWVyQGlldGYub3JnPg0KU3ViamVjdDogW0JpZXJdIEN1cnJlbnQgU2xv dCByZXF1ZXN0cyBzdW1tYXJpemVkLCBmdXJ0aGVyIG9uZXMgdG8gdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQgcGxlYXNl IC4uLg0KDQpTbG90IHJlcXVlc3RzIHNvIGZhciwgbm8gcGFydGljdWxhciBvcmRlciwgcGxlYXNl 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faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 957741200FC for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 16:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FBE58C4D0; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:08:21 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 86109B0DC5B; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:08:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:08:21 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Message-ID: <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 00:08:27 -0000 Thanks, Tony On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 02:29:07PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > As first: we do not have that in the charter currently as work item so I > suggest to poke the AD to expand it. Charters have wiggle room but this > seems stretching it unless AD signs off here as this being "Manageability > and OAM". And yes, we had adoption in the room & this thread generated good > amount of discussion, many in favor. Sure, and i was infavour of it as well, until i did a bit more due diligence and getting frustrated how this seems to be crippled with the way the work is currently scoped (informationally,...). Whats the reason to not try to get a standards solution for non-PLS thats as easy operationally as the MPLS solution ? This discussion is IMHO about the missing bits to achieve that. I am not sure about your interpretation of the charter issue. Maybe we first finish the technical arguments and then circle back to ADs ? > > (2) Target: IMHO should be same standards track as 8296. Probably update > > RFC8296. > > While I could agree that it would be good to have a static provisioning > possibility I would disagree to make _a_ specific single > BIFT-assignment-scheme a standard. Why not ? We have a complete standard MPLS stack with no unnecessary manual bift config or undefined bits. Why can we not at least have one standard option for the same goal for non-MPLS ? I am not saying that we need to constrain the non-mpls side to ONLY ONE standard. There can be non-standard assignment schemes and/or even multiple standard assignment schemes in the future. All i want is at least one standard method to make selling & deployment of non-MPLS as easy and comparable to MPLS. > > (3) Draft should become normative reference to draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang. > > To support this draft, YANG model just needs to introduce > > encap option "bier-encap-bsl-sd-si" (some name). Nothing more needed! > > Are we confused here? This is _not_ an encapsulation, this is a BIFT-id > assignment scheme. You could achieve all that by not running any IGP (or > other signallling) and just assign static MPLS label values on MPLS > encoding so strictly speaking no new yang is necessary here IMO if I'm not > mistaken. Not sure if/how to correctly express this in YANG: encapsulation type: { mpls, non-mpls} bift-id-assignment-scheme: { label, bsl-sd-si, flat } if encapsulation-type == mpls: bift-id-assignment-scheme must be "label", read-only if encapsulation type == non-mpls bift-assignment-scheme: must NOT be label > > a) However this work proceeds, we would need to add parameters to the > > YANG draft to support the "arbitrary" BIFT-ID assignment. I think > > this would mean some "flat-bift-id" encapsulation type and a > > list of per (SD,SI) BIFT-ID parameters in the appropriate place > > of the YANG data model. Make this mandatory to support. > > > > The mandatory need to support those flat BIFT-ID encoding parameters > > is my best idea how to ensure Erics concern does not happen: platforms > > that will not allow you do use any BIFT-ID. > > > Again, I don't see any extensions needed since this is not an encaps. Extension of the yang data model. > What I see is that we'd have to expose in yang in every encapsulation the > BIFT-id as something that can be written/provisioned. This is not only good > for static provisioning, this could be valuable for e.g. out-of-band > controller signalling. Except that for MPLS and "bsl-sd-si", the bift <=> {BSL},SI,SD mapping is read-only and for eg: non-mpls,flat it is rw, and you MUST write values for this mapping consistently across all BSR. Probably also need to first create the BIFTs via YANG. I may be wrong, Ice might have a different idea how to map his "auto" cli to the yang model. In what i wrote above, it would be via the "bsl-sd-si" assignment scheme parameter. > > b) I think it would be great if we had inband recognition of misconfigured > > BIFT-IDs without the need to depend on the control plane. > > > > Given how the BSL aready has a header field, it seems we would not > > need it in the BIFT-ID, but could use (some of) those bits to identify > > the > > encoding, and make this mechanism be one encoding value. > > > > > We could start to 'grab bits' in the BIFT-id to identify something but we > don't have any, encodings like MPLS took all 20 bits > and hence we don't have space For MPLS BIER packets, there is only one permitted encoding of the BIFT-ID field, and thats standardized. So no need to check for misconfiguration between sending and receiving BFR. We only need such a check when there are different methods used, and in non-MPLS BIER, that would be the case. > and again, "static BIFT-id assignment" does not seem an encapsulation to me Is this a charter scope or a technical point ? If technical please rephrase, didn't understand. > ... Moreover, sinking signalling for that into OAM data > plane seems like a rather poor idea. If there is even two possible and potentially manual configured schemes for BIFT <=> SDL,SI,SD mapping, and there is inconsistent config, then this creates huge package leaking security issues. Like L3VPN packets ending up in wrong VPNs. The draft proposal if consistently configured throughput the network does (like MPLS encap) not have this issue. Therefore we really only need to recognize whether a non-mpls packets bift-id uses this assignment scheme or not. With that check, the non-MPLS solution wold have the same automatic-assinment based prortection against mismatches of bift-assignments as the MPLS solution. I think cross-VPN package leakage is a typical security issue you would like to NOT leave to offline configuration methods, but rather ensure it happens inside the solution. In the absence of the IGP signaling used by MPLS, these bits in the bift-id itself are the easiest way to achieve this. Of course, this problem could equally be solved with IGP extensions, ability to reduce the risk for this in the forwarding plane. > Generally true for attempts to push > control plane functionality into data plane ... Like replacing perfectly fine control plane signalled multicast trees with destination bits in packets ? ;-P Cheers toerless > > --- tony From nobody Tue Mar 6 16:20:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2ED12025C; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 16:20:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AJhi9wZwwu0h; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 16:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 362C71200E5; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 16:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7031658C4D0; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:20:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 50F26B0DC5D; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:20:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:20:35 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier-chairs@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180307002035.GT15215@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Request for bier@ietf101 slots X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 00:20:42 -0000 Would like to request a slot to discuss BIER-TE work. a) Discussion of draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework which is about the BIER-TE suggested control plane framework (IGP, PCEP mostly). This will also be presented at TEAS on monday morning, and i hope BIER participants interested in BIER-TE will show up there, but i hope i can focus the TEAS slot to get feedback how to go forward with TEAS organizzed work in PCE / LSR, so i probably would love to push back in TEAS discussing really technical details of BIER TE that relate to forwarding plane vs. control plane interactions or the like and redirect that to this BIER WG slot. I will include a quick update on draft-ietf-bier-te-arch, which really only added the Alia requested clarification of forwarding plane distinction between BIER/BIER-TE, but no other changes. b) Rachel already i think posted a request to present draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation, i think it does not matter how you order that presentation re. the framework (before/after) c) I have not seen a request from Pascal, so i am asking for a slot for draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination and will draft him to present, or worst case present on his behalf. this one i think should be directly after or before Rachels slot. Thank you very much! Toerless From nobody Tue Mar 6 17:14:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3897E124BAC for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:14:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KZL0yv2FAgxT for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46BF6120227 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id h21so1689709wmd.1 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 17:13:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PFmEvx4gWasRc3yq4DJ796TRnSRGxFNO9bNNk4lxXJ4=; b=nfVAAU4w5EB1DKJr1MloB4jo7cUJ+mdlDf4Pb6KZtQhuAmMxfwfaKEaZEVnY9TIGD0 FId/ubbdxJMcGxxIdmJeOiW9sdwkxr2+/pKnVHKVW15ZCOIf+vyvPYzCSrK8p2m4nAu5 riPjW88OfyWyw5Oxx2KmboCRlzD6pyesPPvNcmSN39rIh36ALeT9cbN44ZvcmseZoqxz aB8pJnCPoV1SfvrAf7DBoQElziAixoGgHDwagug9PnL2pZqBJR+MXQM8/gLp2Hk+1GlB jDA1EHkY6BrlFX9taPTXZhRwjwC0Jl9jvVdu+XqLn7dC9ye5UqmIKwzgliFi+0mjtwhJ bBIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PFmEvx4gWasRc3yq4DJ796TRnSRGxFNO9bNNk4lxXJ4=; b=FynyG6Xdvpu9mOe2E29iKiXpXzCHCg5zkRJLUyioc5QiUbmsrW+v2Ctg/SRGqCi9fV cNK6/CT5oRK2YDKPoWkyjAiWR0ul7L/xo37qFXhLZMxC10qzWQrotoDSzWNHmZJP+wVe JQgSYNVD3G1WSvD389Z8m+Px0vxW8eIEWHW0SSepSq1g2Q/4LN9tqa5R4SrzZW/Au/+F bkpobVgroGp6EA/owd343AQCwrYHavYuZ9SujMTJOysnB+IHWTNrJkPEg/sJJDjAnmkz THYCaPJo5Xn523hKRxGfZqdD1+l5Gw0+5GaPOxZRvdBnE9dTjShoa5uH55DmT0rC6KRu 2UrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPCCxZU1g0JRQyi5Hce7L7RAMK4ZSPzdiEUZJmdaegIsjw2pEQyA xLrDPl/YxUD9NcqTmmK14vSpylwQXFh/Ch+ajlluVg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELs7VJHFCMAFCQ78dkZD4vuVfaxr/RWrtjPIa2/ZHeRpgRMnx49BxmgxMP3yFtQVNs+fu/mE3s1cC5w+B6dMAbE= X-Received: by 10.80.227.194 with SMTP id c2mr25228670edm.195.1520385235733; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 17:13:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:13:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:13:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e08215aa0e5d0620566c84599" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 01:14:00 -0000 --089e08215aa0e5d0620566c84599 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Thanks, Tony > toerless, > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 02:29:07PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > As first: we do not have that in the charter currently as work item so I > > suggest to poke the AD to expand it. Charters have wiggle room but this > > seems stretching it unless AD signs off here as this being "Manageability > > and OAM". And yes, we had adoption in the room & this thread generated > good > > amount of discussion, many in favor. > > Sure, and i was infavour of it as well, until i did a bit more > due diligence and getting frustrated how this seems to be crippled > with the way the work is currently scoped (informationally,...). > Whats the reason to not try to get a standards solution for non-PLS > thats as easy operationally as the MPLS solution ? This discussion > is IMHO about the missing bits to achieve that. > ADs move in mysterious ways ;-) > > I am not sure about your interpretation of the charter issue. > Maybe we first finish the technical arguments and then circle back to ADs > ? > yes, agreed ... > > > > (2) Target: IMHO should be same standards track as 8296. Probably > update > > > RFC8296. > > > > While I could agree that it would be good to have a static provisioning > > possibility I would disagree to make _a_ specific single > > BIFT-assignment-scheme a standard. > > Why not ? We have a complete standard MPLS stack with no unnecessary > manual bift config or undefined bits. Why can we not at least have one > standard > option for the same goal for non-MPLS ? > > I am not saying that we need to constrain the non-mpls side to ONLY > ONE standard. There can be non-standard assignment schemes and/or > even multiple standard assignment schemes in the future. All i want is > at least one standard method to make selling & deployment of non-MPLS as > easy and comparable to MPLS. > ok, reads clearer. I think I just got confused whether you're advocating a new encaps (which it all started to sound very much like to my ear) or _all_ non-MPLS encaps to do that. If we say not a new encaps then ok, discussion is somewhat more contained for me. ... > > > > (3) Draft should become normative reference to > draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang. > > > To support this draft, YANG model just needs to introduce > > > encap option "bier-encap-bsl-sd-si" (some name). Nothing more > needed! > > > > Are we confused here? This is _not_ an encapsulation, this is a BIFT-id > > assignment scheme. You could achieve all that by not running any IGP (or > > other signallling) and just assign static MPLS label values on MPLS > > encoding so strictly speaking no new yang is necessary here IMO if I'm > not > > mistaken. > > Not sure if/how to correctly express this in YANG: > > encapsulation type: { mpls, non-mpls} > bift-id-assignment-scheme: { label, bsl-sd-si, flat } > if encapsulation-type == mpls: > bift-id-assignment-scheme must be "label", read-only > if encapsulation type == non-mpls > bift-assignment-scheme: must NOT be label > OK, and here I don't think anything like this is the best solution. What is best solution IMO is saying "every encaps needs a BIFT-id YANG element which is writeable" and yes, I mean MPLS as well. I can very well imagine peiople running MPLS encaps without IGP signalling but setting fixed values. Known by cool names like SRGB and stuff ;-) As side note: I also think that BIFT elements should be supported as optionally Yang writable so people can download full off-line computed BIFTs if they choose. Whether we have to make it a SHOULD or a MUST (well, that's difficult in models, probably best expressed by whole BIFT Yang branch being optional?) and ultimately vendors implement that is another discussion. > > > a) However this work proceeds, we would need to add parameters to the > > > YANG draft to support the "arbitrary" BIFT-ID assignment. I think > > > this would mean some "flat-bift-id" encapsulation type and a > > > list of per (SD,SI) BIFT-ID parameters in the appropriate place > > > of the YANG data model. Make this mandatory to support. > > > > > > The mandatory need to support those flat BIFT-ID encoding parameters > > > is my best idea how to ensure Erics concern does not happen: > platforms > > > that will not allow you do use any BIFT-ID. > > > > > Again, I don't see any extensions needed since this is not an encaps. > > Extension of the yang data model. > ok, let's not argue about the word "extension". I think we should discuss per the paragraph above WHAT is needed in Yang models in the most generic way possible to allow BIER users to use BIER with a "static provisioning" as Ice suggests which I think it a very good idea BTW. As reasoning: one of the reasons is I would want't to have something "special" for non-MPLS vs. MPLS would be to prevent something like IPv6 native encaps (or any other) coming in and saying: oh, look , we want yet another IF in the yang models or somewhere else, e'one is special ... Easier is short term, Not good for WG business in long term. > > > What I see is that we'd have to expose in yang in every encapsulation the > > BIFT-id as something that can be written/provisioned. This is not only > good > > for static provisioning, this could be valuable for e.g. out-of-band > > controller signalling. > > Except that for MPLS and "bsl-sd-si", the bift <=> {BSL},SI,SD mapping > is read-only and for eg: non-mpls,flat it is rw, and you MUST write values > for this mapping consistently across all BSR. Probably also need to first > create the BIFTs via YANG. > > I may be wrong, Ice might have a different idea how to map his > "auto" cli to the yang model. In what i wrote above, it would be > via the "bsl-sd-si" assignment scheme parameter. > yes, I read you. My opinion (technical and as individual here always) is that it's a good idea to have "static" provisioning easily doable with BIER and it's a practically understandable desire to have an *informational* suggestion how to do one such encoding by "default" and that way we could clearly emphasize that something that supports just such single encoding and nothing else is not "fully BIER standards conform" ... > > > > b) I think it would be great if we had inband recognition of > misconfigured > > > BIFT-IDs without the need to depend on the control plane. > > > > > > Given how the BSL aready has a header field, it seems we would not > > > need it in the BIFT-ID, but could use (some of) those bits to > identify > > > the > > > encoding, and make this mechanism be one encoding value. > > > > > > > > We could start to 'grab bits' in the BIFT-id to identify something but we > > don't have any, encodings like MPLS took all 20 bits > > and hence we don't have space > > For MPLS BIER packets, there is only one permitted encoding of the BIFT-ID > field, and thats standardized. So no need to check for misconfiguration > between > sending and receiving BFR. We only need such a check when there are > different > methods used, and in non-MPLS BIER, that would be the case. > > > and again, "static BIFT-id assignment" does not seem an encapsulation to > me > > Is this a charter scope or a technical point ? > If technical please rephrase, didn't understand. > I think it cleared above ... All technical unless I tag otherwise. my very first paragraph in the previous email was charter scope, I have the sometimes unpleasant job to point out the playing field ... > > > ... Moreover, sinking signalling for that into OAM data > > plane seems like a rather poor idea. > > If there is even two possible and potentially manual configured schemes > for BIFT <=> SDL,SI,SD mapping, and there is inconsistent config, > then this creates huge package leaking security issues. Like L3VPN > packets ending up in wrong VPNs. > yes, and that's what you get it you configure things statically. I don't think we should build new dynamic signalling to discover badly set manual overrides while we have a working dynamic signalling already that avoids that. One of the things folks forget easily is that when you take off the safety belts the freedom coming with it implies responsibility ... Tortuous path and I think the promised "simplicity" of the solution will quickly evaporate then. I'm not saying it couldn't be done but I would argue it should not be done as part of "standards" BIER. If that didn't sink in "standards" track puts us on a much higher bar of thinking what the impact of all the stuff we're doing is and will be, there is all the work to come in the future and going on today that will have to start to answer to "HOW will that work with BIER?". That puts quite some responsibility on us from now on. > > The draft proposal if consistently configured throughput the network does > (like MPLS encap) not have this issue. Therefore we really only need to > recognize whether a non-mpls packets bift-id uses this assignment scheme > or not. With that check, the non-MPLS solution wold have the same > automatic-assinment based prortection against mismatches of > bift-assignments > as the MPLS solution. > > I think cross-VPN package leakage is a typical security issue you would > like > to NOT leave to offline configuration methods, but rather ensure it > happens inside the solution. In the absence of the IGP signaling used by > MPLS, these bits in the bift-id itself are the easiest way to achieve > this. > yes, I agree with the fact that VPN cross-leakage is a no-go. It put a serious crimp into L3VPN discussions in its time until it was clarified in standards and products AFAIR ;-) > > Of course, this problem could equally be solved with IGP extensions, > ability to reduce the risk for this in the forwarding plane. > > > Generally true for attempts to push > > control plane functionality into data plane ... > > Like replacing perfectly fine control plane signalled multicast trees with > destination bits in packets ? ;-P > and mildly touche ;-) You're nasty but in a nice way ;-) yeah, we're doing it, don't we ;-) --- tony > > --089e08215aa0e5d0620566c84599 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Toerless Eckert <<= a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
Thanks, Tony
<= div>
toerless,
=C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 02:29:07PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> As first: we do not have that in the charter currently as work item so= I
> suggest to poke the AD to expand it. Charters have wiggle room but thi= s
> seems stretching it unless AD signs off here as this being "Manag= eability
> and OAM". And yes, we had adoption in the room & this thread = generated good
> amount of discussion, many in favor.

Sure, and i was infavour of it as well, until i did a bit more
due diligence and getting frustrated how this seems to be crippled
with the way the work is currently scoped (informationally,...).
Whats the reason to not try to get a standards solution for non-PLS
thats as easy operationally as the MPLS solution ? This discussion
is IMHO about the missing bits to achieve that.

ADs move in mysterious ways ;-)
=C2=A0

I am not sure about your interpretation of the charter issue.
Maybe we first finish the technical arguments and then circle back=C2=A0 to= ADs ?

yes, agreed ...
= =C2=A0

> > (2) Target: IMHO should be same standards track as 8296. Probably= update
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC8296.
>
> While I could agree that it would be good to have a static provisionin= g
> possibility I would disagree to make _a_ specific single
> BIFT-assignment-scheme a standard.

Why not ? We have a complete standard MPLS stack with no unnecessary=
manual bift config or undefined bits. Why can we not at least have one stan= dard
option for the same goal for non-MPLS ?

I am not saying that we need to constrain the non-mpls side to ONLY
ONE standard. There can be non-standard assignment schemes and/or
even multiple standard assignment schemes in the future. All i want is
at least one standard method to make selling & deployment of non-MPLS a= s
easy and comparable to MPLS.

ok, reads = clearer. I think I just got confused whether you're advocating a new
encaps (which it all started to sound very much like to my ear= )
or _all_ non-MPLS encaps to do that. If we say not a new encaps then =
ok, discussion is somewhat more contained for me. ...
=C2=A0

> > (3) Draft should become normative reference to draft-ietf-bier-bi= er-yang.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To support this draft, YANG model just needs to intr= oduce
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 encap option "bier-encap-bsl-sd-si" (some = name). Nothing more needed!
>
> Are we confused here? This is _not_ an encapsulation, this is a BIFT-i= d
> assignment scheme. You could achieve all that by not running any IGP (= or
> other signallling) and just assign static MPLS label values on MPLS > encoding so strictly speaking no new yang is necessary here IMO if I&#= 39;m not
> mistaken.

Not sure if/how to correctly express this in YANG:

=C2=A0 encapsulation type: { mpls, non-mpls}
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bift-id-assignment-scheme: { label, bsl-sd-si, flat }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if encapsulation-type =3D=3D mpls:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bift-id-assignment-scheme must be "l= abel", read-only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if encapsulation type =3D=3D non-mpls
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bift-assignment-scheme: must NOT be label=

=C2=A0OK, and here I don't think a= nything like this is the best solution. What is best solution IMO is saying=

"every encaps needs a BIFT-id YANG element which i= s writeable" and yes, I mean MPLS as well. I can
very w= ell imagine peiople running MPLS encaps without IGP signalling but setting =
fixed values.=C2=A0 Known by cool names like SRGB and stuff = ;-)=C2=A0 As side note: I also think that
BIFT elements shou= ld be supported as optionally Yang writable so people can download
full off-line computed BIFTs if they choose.=C2=A0 Whether we have t= o make it a SHOULD or a
MUST (well, that's difficult in models, pro= bably best expressed by whole BIFT Yang
branch being optional?) and ult= imately vendors implement that is another discussion.


> > a) However this work proceeds, we would need to add parameters to= the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 YANG draft to support the "arbitrary" BIFT= -ID assignment. I think
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this would mean some "flat-bift-id" encaps= ulation type and a
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 list of per (SD,SI) BIFT-ID parameters in the approp= riate place
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the YANG data model. Make this mandatory to suppo= rt.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The mandatory need to support those flat BIFT-ID enc= oding parameters
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is my best idea how to ensure Erics concern does not= happen: platforms
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that will not allow you do use any BIFT-ID.
> >
> Again, I don't see any extensions needed since this is not an enca= ps.

Extension of the yang data model.

ok, let's not argue about the word "extension". I think we = should discuss
per the paragraph above WHAT is needed in Yan= g models in the most generic
way possible to allow BIER users= to use BIER with a "static provisioning" as Ice
s= uggests which I think it a very good idea BTW.

As reasoning: one of the reasons is I would want't to have something &= quot;special" for non-MPLS
vs. MPLS would be to prevent something = like IPv6 native encaps (or any other) coming in and saying: oh, look , we = want yet another IF in the yang models or somewhere else, e'one is spec= ial ... Easier is short term, Not good for WG business in long term.
=C2=A0

> What I see is that we'd have to expose in yang in every encapsulat= ion the
> BIFT-id as something that can be written/provisioned. This is not only= good
> for static provisioning, this could be valuable for e.g. out-of-band > controller signalling.

Except that for MPLS and "bsl-sd-si", the bift <=3D> {BSL},= SI,SD mapping
is read-only and for eg: non-mpls,flat it is rw, and you MUST write values<= br> for this mapping consistently across all BSR. Probably also need to first create the BIFTs via YANG.

I may be wrong, Ice might have a different idea how to map his
"auto" cli to the yang model. In what i wrote above, it would be<= br> via the "bsl-sd-si" assignment scheme parameter.
=

yes, I read you. My opinion (technical and as individua= l here always) is that
it's a good idea to have "st= atic" provisioning easily doable with BIER and it's
a practically understandable desire to have an informational sugges= tion how
to do one such encoding by "default" and t= hat way we could clearly emphasize that something that
suppo= rts just such single encoding and nothing else is not "fully BIER stan= dards conform" ...
=C2=A0

> > b) I think it would be great if we had inband recognition of misc= onfigured
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIFT-IDs without the need to depend on the control p= lane.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Given how the BSL aready has a header field, it seem= s we would not
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 need it in the BIFT-ID, but could use (some of) thos= e bits to identify
> > the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 encoding, and make this mechanism be one encoding va= lue.
> >
> >
> We could start to 'grab bits' in the BIFT-id to identify somet= hing but we
> don't have any,=C2=A0 encodings like MPLS took all 20 bits
> and hence we don't have space

For MPLS BIER packets, there is only one permitted encoding of the B= IFT-ID
field, and thats standardized. So no need to check for misconfiguration bet= ween
sending and receiving BFR. We only need such a check when there are differe= nt
methods used, and in non-MPLS BIER, that would be the case.

> and again, "static BIFT-id assignment" does not seem an enca= psulation to me

Is this a charter scope or a technical point ?
If technical please rephrase, didn't understand.
<= br>
I think it cleared above ... All technical unless I tag other= wise. my very first paragraph in the previous
email was char= ter scope, I have the sometimes unpleasant job to point out the
playing field ...=C2=A0
=C2=A0

> ... Moreover, sinking signalling for that into OAM data
> plane seems like a rather poor idea.

If there is even two possible and potentially manual configured sche= mes
for BIFT <=3D> SDL,SI,SD mapping, and there is inconsistent config, then this creates huge package leaking security issues. Like L3VPN
packets ending up in wrong VPNs.

yes, a= nd that's what you get it you configure things statically. I don't = think we should
build new dynamic signalling to discover bad= ly set manual overrides while we have a working
dynamic signa= lling already that avoids that. One of the things folks forget easily is th= at when
you take off the safety belts the freedom coming with it implie= s responsibility ... Tortuous path and I think the promised
&= quot;simplicity" of the solution will quickly evaporate then.=C2=A0 I&= #39;m not saying it couldn't be done
but I would argue it= should not be done as part of "standards" BIER.=C2=A0 <chair&= gt;If that didn't sink
in "standards" track put= s us on a much higher bar of thinking what the impact of all
= the stuff we're doing is and will be, there is all the work to come in = the future and going on today
that will have to start to ans= wer to "HOW will that work with BIER?". That puts quite some
<= /div>
=C2=A0responsibility on us from now on. </chair>
<= div>=C2=A0

The draft proposal if consistently configured throughput the network does (like MPLS encap) not have this issue. Therefore we really only need to
recognize whether a non-mpls packets bift-id uses this assignment scheme or not. With that check, the non-MPLS solution wold have the same
automatic-assinment based prortection against mismatches of bift-assignment= s
as the MPLS solution.

I think cross-VPN package leakage is a typical security issue you would lik= e
to NOT leave to offline configuration methods, but rather ensure it
happens inside the solution. In the absence of the IGP signaling used by MPLS, these bits in the bift-id itself are the easiest way to achieve
this.

yes, I agree with the fact that V= PN cross-leakage is a no-go. It put a serious crimp into L3VPN discussions = in its time until it was clarified in standards and products AFAIR ;-)
<= /div>
=C2=A0

Of course, this problem could equally be solved with IGP extensions,
ability to reduce the risk for this in the forwarding plane.

> Generally true for attempts to push
> control plane functionality into data plane ...

Like replacing perfectly fine control plane signalled multicast tree= s with
destination bits in packets ? ;-P

and m= ildly touche ;-) You're nasty but in a nice way ;-)=C2=A0 yeah, we'= re doing it, don't we ;-)

--- tony


--089e08215aa0e5d0620566c84599-- From nobody Tue Mar 6 17:14:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B34F124BAC for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:14:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OsNBCMvrJk5F for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22e.google.com (mail-wm0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 354FA120227 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id w128so1701087wmw.0 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 17:14:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YM6F/IKdVR732KvCh6i0Sb3v0Ed94ZvwzWP541bVGqk=; b=HOCXShwvT8ydPVUSMRzvA6ydJoyEIj64C3tojfg8iMi+d7js+5W691vPUDV/uQNUkF HE4RBuQ39C4fo/L5BHnlPyYZVgEpj0CsXI+3FfHMu5MtqK0SP4FGASVj+ZicANAbl6sb UXIyPbQAfBwbTDEetYaMZRtuJmuOphMoBxGhw3GVr8JcA++wUIgVONNg90wV/4jvF61X GBEI/Emh7nUCxZz4ouAAF3ROVP6+7cWlj6gH7RgV4bekhvPFMUstuGIVCC8DNpL0PdCG JfeCcddYqmZP+EexckHyLumrBFZjoIb1un3tKI/C+lduTaza730DrddLYHyUPr16Wi64 z/Qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YM6F/IKdVR732KvCh6i0Sb3v0Ed94ZvwzWP541bVGqk=; b=PUalqRZP1vGE9gXOpyooC6OQcS0Qa/B3ka+BxTfWCkwOe29fXdijbO8xW70TkIOIs3 cYfHwjgSbZdXNwHi3U+gXInvtvM+x1UtkrHAeXOorT1yMFzP3lK0s9egWlL+aJHHZuA8 NXCabp2IXN/nSwfYcvsOhJRhJndV0C7AkvVYBF/BX6QzGkE7PkD91fGXAFUWrfBurn9t 7+PrcwEIRG/F4mUa8JI3xaut0klMVV7XkPrrOuGju+nYSs+lhABOoymw60NpWsAEUSVa 1A5zdkOrj6PGIIei176TfiwgXwcDmzNXOMMiqWs7P+08bSByjCjy77ie3jcML76D2TN/ Yyvg== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAhJcH9Klb7KXaAVUvkoWes39BCfyiK7bGM/CCdnYsFX0d67Pmi cTjKmi0IwrYfluewlnboyc3Gd1IFcas4USRwZ/FlPW87 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsQL8Nk0pNW3B/XywWiXNg/TBR57MZI6JvtfZTHdnnUIh0cTNxaNowmfeJrxzogUwpXhzwwBhxPV2cuiWKtvhI= X-Received: by 10.80.164.193 with SMTP id x1mr25836155edb.156.1520385287799; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 17:14:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:14:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:14:07 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0e46540048bf0566c84901" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Current Slot requests summarized, further ones to this thread please ... X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 01:14:52 -0000 --94eb2c0e46540048bf0566c84901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cop:'ing stragglers into this thread for tracking purposes ;-) > Toerless: a) Discussion of draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework which > is about the BIER-TE suggested control plane framework (IGP, PCEP mostly)= . > > This will also be presented at TEAS on monday morning, and > i hope BIER participants interested in BIER-TE will show up there, > but i hope i can focus the TEAS slot to get feedback how to go forward > with TEAS organizzed work in PCE / LSR, so i probably would love > to push back in TEAS discussing really technical details of BIER > TE that relate to forwarding plane vs. control plane interactions or > the like and redirect that to this BIER WG slot. > > I will include a quick update on draft-ietf-bier-te-arch, which really > only added the Alia requested clarification of forwarding plane > distinction between BIER/BIER-TE, but no other changes. > > b) Rachel already i think posted a request to > present draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation, i think it does not matter > how you order that presentation re. the framework (before/after) > > c) I have not seen a request from Pascal, so i am asking for > a slot for draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination > and will draft him to present, or worst case present on his behalf. > this one i think should be directly after or before Rachels slot. > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:51 PM, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi Tony > > > > Also can we add, 10 min for draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling, to give group > an update. > > > > Regards > > > > Hooman > > > > *From:* BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Tony Przygiend= a > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 6, 2018 2:44 PM > *To:* BIER WG > *Subject:* [Bier] Current Slot requests summarized, further ones to this > thread please ... > > > > Slot requests so far, no particular order, please double-check, any > further posts to this list, it's spread across multiple mailboxes/threads > which is unnecessary > > - I=E2=80=99d like to have 10-15 minutes to present our new draft > draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation-00. This draft proposes an enhanced > encapsulation to support BEIR, BIER-TE and a control word. > - draft-zzhang-algorithms, but focus on handling BIER incapable routers; > 15 minutes > - draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa; 10 minutes > - BIER in RIFT (draft-zzhang-bier-rift); 10 minutes (after Sandy's > presentation on draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute) > - https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-00.txt. I > will like to request a presentation slot of 10 to 15 minutes, during the > London BIER WG session. > - I=E2=80=99d like to request a presentation slot of 15 to 20 minutes to= discuss: > MVPN using P2MP and BIER (draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp) > - draft-venaas-bier-mtud-00.txt: I would like to present this proposal. 1= 5 > minutes would be good perhaps. > - The Resilience for BIER draft-xiong-bier-resilience-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xiong-bier-resilience/ > > We're very popular this time it seems, slots will be short ... > > As general guideline: curtail your excitement for new encapsulations if > possible, we only have in charter v6 native encaps & possibly something i= f > it pertains to TE. I can imaging that having BIER tunneling drafts (if > anything is necesary) are of interest but thinking we can re-encode BIER > packets over Avian carriers is good for 1st of upcoming month but will be > hard pressed to find adoption ... > > Otherwise there is enough control work to finish IDR, BGP-LS, help with > Babel and so on ... > > > > thanks > > > > --- tony > > > --94eb2c0e46540048bf0566c84901 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
cop:'ing stragglers into this thread for tracking= purposes ;-)

> Toerless:

a) Discussion of draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framewor= k which
is about the BIER-TE suggested control plane framework (IGP, PCE= P mostly).

This will also be presented at TEAS on monday morning, an= d
i hope BIER participants interested in BIER-TE will show up there,
= but i hope i can focus the TEAS slot to get feedback how to go forward
w= ith TEAS organizzed work in PCE / LSR, so i probably would love
to push = back in TEAS discussing really technical details of BIER
TE that relate = to forwarding plane vs. control plane interactions or
the like and redir= ect that to this BIER WG slot.

I will include a quick update on draf= t-ietf-bier-te-arch, which really
only added the Alia requested clarific= ation of forwarding plane
distinction between BIER/BIER-TE, but no other= changes.

b) Rachel already i think posted a request to
present d= raft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation, i think it does not matter
how you ord= er that presentation re. the framework (before/after)

c) I have not = seen a request from Pascal, so i am asking for
a slot for draft-thubert-= bier-replication-elimination
and will draft him to present, or worst cas= e present on his behalf.
this one i think should be directly after or be= fore Rachels slot.

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:51 PM, Bidgoli, Hooman (No= kia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi Tony

=C2=A0

Also can we add, 10 min for draft-ietf-bier-pi= m-signaling, to give group an update.

=C2=A0

Regards

=C2=A0

Hooman

<= span>=C2=A0

From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tony Przygienda
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2018 2:44 PM
To: BIER WG <b= ier@ietf.org>
Subject: [Bier] Current Slot requests summarized, further ones to th= is thread please ...

=C2=A0

Slot requests so far,= no particular order, please double-check, any further posts to this list, = it's spread across multiple mailboxes/threads which is unnecessary

- I=E2=80=99d like to have 10-15 minutes to present our new draft draft-hua= ng-bier-te-encapsulation-00. This draft proposes an enhanced encapsula= tion to support BEIR, BIER-TE and a control word.
=C2=A0- draft-zzhang-algorithms, but focus on handling BIER incapable route= rs; 15 minutes
=C2=A0- draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa; 10 minutes
=C2=A0- BIER in RIFT (draft-zzhang-bier-rift); 10 minutes (after Sandy'= s presentation on draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute)
- https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-00.= txt. I will like to request a presentation slot of 10 to 15 minutes, du= ring the London BIER WG session.
- =C2=A0I=E2=80=99d like to request a presentation slot of 15 to 20 minutes= to discuss: MVPN using P2MP and BIER (draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp)
- draft-venaas-bier-mtud-00.txt: I would like to present this proposal. 15 = minutes would be good perhaps.
- The Resilience for BIER draft-xiong-bier-resilience-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xiong-bier-resilience/=

We're very popula= r this time it seems, slots will be short ...

As general guideline:= curtail your excitement for new encapsulations if possible, we only have i= n charter v6 native encaps & possibly something if it pertains to TE. I= can imaging that having BIER tunneling drafts (if anything is necesary) are of interest but thinking we can re-en= code BIER packets over Avian carriers is good for 1st of upcoming month but= will be hard pressed to find adoption ...

Otherwise there is enough control work to finish IDR= , BGP-LS, help with Babel and so on ...

=C2=A0

thanks

=C2=A0

--- tony

=C2=A0


--94eb2c0e46540048bf0566c84901-- From nobody Tue Mar 6 18:32:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12702126FB3 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:32:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i1DPvEky27Cd for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B721126DED for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0AF58C4D0; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 03:32:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 3CAB0B0DC5F; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 03:32:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 03:32:38 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Message-ID: <20180307023238.GB12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 02:32:46 -0000 On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 05:13:15PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > "every encaps needs a BIFT-id YANG element which is writeable" and yes, I > mean MPLS as well. I can > very well imagine peiople running MPLS encaps without IGP signalling but > setting > fixed values. Known by cool names like SRGB and stuff ;-) As side note: I > also think that > BIFT elements should be supported as optionally Yang writable so people can > download > full off-line computed BIFTs if they choose. Whether we have to make it a > SHOULD or a > MUST (well, that's difficult in models, probably best expressed by whole > BIFT Yang > branch being optional?) and ultimately vendors implement that is another > discussion. Sure. I do not have enough background with YANG models. Before having more opinions avbout this, i would want to go investigate with yang experts what existing models already have more intelligent options. E.g: anything i can use a prior good practice to argue that the BIFT-ID mapping table could become RO when i configure anothrer scheme - eg: esxisting IGP/MPLS automatic label binding. When we figure out how the Yang model would best support the current automatic MPLS label binding assignment, we should try to use the same approach for native (together with this draft allocation scheme). > ok, let's not argue about the word "extension". I think we should discuss > per the paragraph above WHAT is needed in Yang models in the most generic > way possible to allow BIER users to use BIER with a "static provisioning" > as Ice suggests which I think it a very good idea BTW. Sure. Aka: BSL,SI,SD <=> BIFT-ID mapping i guess... And a bunch more stuff if you completely want to eliminate the IGP. > As reasoning: one of the reasons is I would want't to have something > "special" for non-MPLS > vs. MPLS would be to prevent something like IPv6 native encaps (or any > other) coming in and saying: oh, look , we want yet another IF in the yang > models or somewhere else, e'one is special ... Easier is short term, Not > good for WG business in long term. Sure. Given how my whole argument was trying to create as much parity in the BIER framework between MPLS and non-MPLS when it comes to simplicity, complete standards spec, etc. i'd certainly want to avoid one-offs for either side. > > > What I see is that we'd have to expose in yang in every encapsulation the > > > BIFT-id as something that can be written/provisioned. This is not only > > good > > > for static provisioning, this could be valuable for e.g. out-of-band > > > controller signalling. > > > > Except that for MPLS and "bsl-sd-si", the bift <=> {BSL},SI,SD mapping > > is read-only and for eg: non-mpls,flat it is rw, and you MUST write values > > for this mapping consistently across all BSR. Probably also need to first > > create the BIFTs via YANG. > > > > I may be wrong, Ice might have a different idea how to map his > > "auto" cli to the yang model. In what i wrote above, it would be > > via the "bsl-sd-si" assignment scheme parameter. > > > > yes, I read you. My opinion (technical and as individual here always) is > that > it's a good idea to have "static" provisioning easily doable with BIER and > it's > a practically understandable desire to have an *informational* suggestion > how > to do one such encoding by "default" and that way we could clearly > emphasize that something that > supports just such single encoding and nothing else is not "fully BIER > standards conform" ... sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the current MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - unless we make this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > If there is even two possible and potentially manual configured schemes > > for BIFT <=> SDL,SI,SD mapping, and there is inconsistent config, > > then this creates huge package leaking security issues. Like L3VPN > > packets ending up in wrong VPNs. > > > > yes, and that's what you get it you configure things statically. I don't > think we should > build new dynamic signalling to discover badly set manual overrides while > we have a working > dynamic signalling already that avoids that. But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover thre BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID hop-by-hop..). > One of the things folks forget easily is that when > you take off the safety belts the freedom coming with it implies > responsibility ... Tortuous path and I think the promised > "simplicity" of the solution will quickly evaporate then. I'm not saying > it couldn't be done > but I would argue it should not be done as part of "standards" BIER. > If that didn't sink > in "standards" track puts us on a much higher bar of thinking what the > impact of all > the stuff we're doing is and will be, there is all the work to come in the > future and going on today > that will have to start to answer to "HOW will that work with BIER?". That > puts quite some > responsibility on us from now on. True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not try to find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP encap option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit missing for that option. All the explicit BIFT-ID config options is great for SDN fans and i am happy to support via Yang too, but would never be my first worry. > > Of course, this problem could equally be solved with IGP extensions, > > ability to reduce the risk for this in the forwarding plane. > > > > > Generally true for attempts to push > > > control plane functionality into data plane ... > > > > Like replacing perfectly fine control plane signalled multicast trees with > > destination bits in packets ? ;-P > > and mildly touche ;-) You're nasty but in a nice way ;-) yeah, we're doing > it, don't we ;-) And proud for it ;-) Don't keep up the draft from being accepted by WG on my behalf, i'll just continue pounding on my opinion that i want a fully standardized IP BIER stack equally simple to configure to what we have in MPLS. And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to std, there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG reconsider its target. Cheers Toerless From nobody Tue Mar 6 19:37:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085781242EA; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 19:37:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=alibaba-inc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PY1KzJ_y0QyA; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 19:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from out0-142.mail.aliyun.com (out0-142.mail.aliyun.com [140.205.0.142]) (using TLSv1.2 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"=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "BIER" , "Toerless Eckert" Cc: "Greg Shepherd" , "BIER WG" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 948139][W4_5181003][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>, In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5181003_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfMykgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjAyLjQuOCAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTAuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDIuNC44La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_16963_59121940_5a9f5e61_254066" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_adoption=3A_draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-?= =?utf-8?q?mpls-bift-encoding-01?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XwwSfG7zRIV2 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 20:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B3231242EA for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 20:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id z9so2021174wmb.3 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 20:03:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; 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X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBz6KnwGsGVhARxrtg35LmVOEL5Qc80fRueq92M7foWjOlhJ0Tv PYsmdUVGnu3/ZjVi0IqSbaj4OxY37EEk3nz3Ey2kWA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELt4/cZGyk0YXsOcNEZwAewCLW6CZ+T6rV6MrTuGo3EMVBcPh8gw/Eu87FldNDVfZx+EE1bsoCJaVjaQ4QZNLNA= X-Received: by 10.80.157.203 with SMTP id l11mr25389607edk.200.1520395426575; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 20:03:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 20:03:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20180307023238.GB12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307023238.GB12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 20:03:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e0823766c51bb1b0566caa5ac" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 04:03:52 -0000 --089e0823766c51bb1b0566caa5ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:32 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 05:13:15PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > "every encaps needs a BIFT-id YANG element which is writeable" and yes, I > > mean MPLS as well. I can > > very well imagine peiople running MPLS encaps without IGP signalling but > > setting > > fixed values. Known by cool names like SRGB and stuff ;-) As side > note: I > > also think that > > BIFT elements should be supported as optionally Yang writable so people > can > > download > > full off-line computed BIFTs if they choose. Whether we have to make it > a > > SHOULD or a > > MUST (well, that's difficult in models, probably best expressed by whole > > BIFT Yang > > branch being optional?) and ultimately vendors implement that is another > > discussion. > > Sure. > ack, agreed > > I do not have enough background with YANG models. Before having more > opinions > avbout this, i would want to go investigate with yang experts what existing > models already have more intelligent options. E.g: anything i can use a > prior good practice to argue that the BIFT-ID mapping table could become > RO when i configure anothrer scheme - eg: esxisting IGP/MPLS automatic > label binding. When we figure out how the Yang model would best support > the current automatic MPLS label binding assignment, we should try to > use the same approach for native (together with this draft allocation > scheme). > > > ok, let's not argue about the word "extension". I think we should discuss > > per the paragraph above WHAT is needed in Yang models in the most generic > > way possible to allow BIER users to use BIER with a "static provisioning" > > as Ice suggests which I think it a very good idea BTW. > > Sure. Aka: BSL,SI,SD <=> BIFT-ID mapping i guess... > And a bunch more stuff if you completely want to eliminate the IGP. > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is like telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on ... > > > As reasoning: one of the reasons is I would want't to have something > > "special" for non-MPLS > > vs. MPLS would be to prevent something like IPv6 native encaps (or any > > other) coming in and saying: oh, look , we want yet another IF in the > yang > > models or somewhere else, e'one is special ... Easier is short term, Not > > good for WG business in long term. > > Sure. Given how my whole argument was trying to create as much parity > in the BIER framework between MPLS and non-MPLS when it comes to > simplicity, > complete standards spec, etc. i'd certainly want to avoid one-offs for > either side. > > agreed > > > > What I see is that we'd have to expose in yang in every > encapsulation the > > > > BIFT-id as something that can be written/provisioned. This is not > only > > > good > > > > for static provisioning, this could be valuable for e.g. out-of-band > > > > controller signalling. > > > > > > Except that for MPLS and "bsl-sd-si", the bift <=> {BSL},SI,SD mapping > > > is read-only and for eg: non-mpls,flat it is rw, and you MUST write > values > > > for this mapping consistently across all BSR. Probably also need to > first > > > create the BIFTs via YANG. > > > > > > I may be wrong, Ice might have a different idea how to map his > > > "auto" cli to the yang model. In what i wrote above, it would be > > > via the "bsl-sd-si" assignment scheme parameter. > > > > > > > yes, I read you. My opinion (technical and as individual here always) is > > that > > it's a good idea to have "static" provisioning easily doable with BIER > and > > it's > > a practically understandable desire to have an *informational* suggestion > > how > > to do one such encoding by "default" and that way we could clearly > > emphasize that something that > > supports just such single encoding and nothing else is not "fully BIER > > standards conform" ... > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the current > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - unless we make > this > bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static provisioning being as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, otherwise the whole world would still route using static routes and no'one would bother with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisioned and give people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And build some informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but please, not as part of standard track OAM > > > > If there is even two possible and potentially manual configured schemes > > > for BIFT <=> SDL,SI,SD mapping, and there is inconsistent config, > > > then this creates huge package leaking security issues. Like L3VPN > > > packets ending up in wrong VPNs. > > > > > > > yes, and that's what you get it you configure things statically. I don't > > think we should > > build new dynamic signalling to discover badly set manual overrides while > > we have a working > > dynamic signalling already that avoids that. > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover thre > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID > hop-by-hop..). > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space and signal that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for people right there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > > > One of the things folks forget easily is that when > > you take off the safety belts the freedom coming with it implies > > responsibility ... Tortuous path and I think the promised > > "simplicity" of the solution will quickly evaporate then. I'm not saying > > it couldn't be done > > but I would argue it should not be done as part of "standards" BIER. > > If that didn't sink > > in "standards" track puts us on a much higher bar of thinking what the > > impact of all > > the stuff we're doing is and will be, there is all the work to come in > the > > future and going on today > > that will have to start to answer to "HOW will that work with BIER?". > That > > puts quite some > > responsibility on us from now on. > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not try to > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP encap > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit missing > for that option. > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one voice but Greg builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make "BIFT-id MUST be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop at "here's one information, recommended encoding" > > Of course, this problem could equally be solved with IGP extensions, > > > ability to reduce the risk for this in the forwarding plane. > > > > > > > Generally true for attempts to push > > > > control plane functionality into data plane ... > > > > > > Like replacing perfectly fine control plane signalled multicast trees > with > > > destination bits in packets ? ;-P > > > > and mildly touche ;-) You're nasty but in a nice way ;-) yeah, we're > doing > > it, don't we ;-) > > And proud for it ;-) > And please don't stop ;-) BIER is not built around singing kumbaya too often ;-) > > Don't keep up the draft from being accepted by WG on my behalf, i'll > just continue pounding on my opinion that i want a fully standardized > IP BIER stack equally simple to configure to what we have in MPLS. > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter if we try to make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my experience, exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We may end up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then what will you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path", especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard after stuff is deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structure to them. > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to std, > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG reconsider > its target. > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to change the scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & Greg has to call a new adoption call IMSO. --- tony --089e0823766c51bb1b0566caa5ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:32 PM, Toerless Eckert <<= a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 0= 6, 2018 at 05:13:15PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> "every encaps needs a BIFT-id YANG element which is writeable&quo= t; and yes, I
> mean MPLS as well. I can
> very well imagine peiople running MPLS encaps without IGP signalling b= ut
> setting
> fixed values.=C2=A0 Known by cool names like SRGB and stuff ;-)=C2=A0 = As side note: I
> also think that
> BIFT elements should be supported as optionally Yang writable so peopl= e can
> download
> full off-line computed BIFTs if they choose.=C2=A0 Whether we have to = make it a
> SHOULD or a
> MUST (well, that's difficult in models, probably best expressed by= whole
> BIFT Yang
> branch being optional?) and ultimately vendors implement that is anoth= er
> discussion.

Sure.

ack, agreed
=C2=A0
=

I do not have enough background with YANG models. Before having more opinio= ns
avbout this, i would want to go investigate with yang experts what existing=
models already have more intelligent options. E.g: anything i can use a
prior good practice to argue that the BIFT-ID mapping table could become RO when i configure anothrer scheme - eg: esxisting IGP/MPLS automatic
label binding. When we figure out how the Yang model would best support
the current automatic MPLS label binding assignment, we should try to
use the same approach for native (together with this draft allocation
scheme).

> ok, let's not argue about the word "extension". I think = we should discuss
> per the paragraph above WHAT is needed in Yang models in the most gene= ric
> way possible to allow BIER users to use BIER with a "static provi= sioning"
> as Ice suggests which I think it a very good idea BTW.

Sure. Aka: BSL,SI,SD <=3D> BIFT-ID mapping i guess...
And a bunch more stuff if you completely want to eliminate the IGP.

agreed except the mapping cannot be standardiz= ed IMO ... This is like telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS = servers on ...
=C2=A0

> As reasoning: one of the reasons is I would want't to have somethi= ng
> "special" for non-MPLS
> vs. MPLS would be to prevent something like IPv6 native encaps (or any=
> other) coming in and saying: oh, look , we want yet another IF in the = yang
> models or somewhere else, e'one is special ... Easier is short ter= m, Not
> good for WG business in long term.

Sure. Given how my whole argument was trying to create as much parit= y
in the BIER framework between MPLS and non-MPLS when it comes to simplicity= ,
complete standards spec, etc. i'd certainly want to avoid one-offs for<= br> either side.


agreed
=C2=A0
> > > What I see is that we'd have to expose in yang in every = encapsulation the
> > > BIFT-id as something that can be written/provisioned. This i= s not only
> > good
> > > for static provisioning, this could be valuable for e.g. out= -of-band
> > > controller signalling.
> >
> > Except that for MPLS and "bsl-sd-si", the bift <=3D&= gt; {BSL},SI,SD mapping
> > is read-only and for eg: non-mpls,flat it is rw, and you MUST wri= te values
> > for this mapping consistently across all BSR. Probably also need = to first
> > create the BIFTs via YANG.
> >
> > I may be wrong, Ice might have a different idea how to map his > > "auto" cli to the yang model. In what i wrote above, it= would be
> > via the "bsl-sd-si" assignment scheme parameter.
> >
>
> yes, I read you. My opinion (technical and as individual here always) = is
> that
> it's a good idea to have "static" provisioning easily do= able with BIER and
> it's
> a practically understandable desire to have an *informational* = suggestion
> how
> to do one such encoding by "default" and that way we could c= learly
> emphasize that something that
> supports just such single encoding and nothing else is not "fully= BIER
> standards conform" ...

sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the current MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - un= less we make this
bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard.

well= , you try the impossible here. You can't have static provisioning being= as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, otherwise the w= hole world would still route using static routes and no'one would bothe= r with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-)

IMO best you=C2=A0 can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provision= ed and give people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And b= uild some informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" = but please, not as part of standard track OAM
=C2=A0

> > If there is even two possible and potentially manual configured s= chemes
> > for BIFT <=3D> SDL,SI,SD mapping, and there is inconsistent= config,
> > then this creates huge package leaking security issues. Like L3VP= N
> > packets ending up in wrong VPNs.
> >
>
> yes, and that's what you get it you configure things statically. I= don't
> think we should
> build new dynamic signalling to discover badly set manual overrides wh= ile
> we have a working
> dynamic signalling already that avoids that.

But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover thr= e
BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And
we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID hop-by-ho= p..).


who said. What prevents you f= rom using a "non-MPLS" label space and signal that in ethernet en= caps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for people right there ;-)=C2=A0 0x= 8847 has a point ;-)
=C2=A0

> One of the things folks forget easily is that when
> you take off the safety belts the freedom coming with it implies
> responsibility ... Tortuous path and I think the promised
> "simplicity" of the solution will quickly evaporate then.=C2= =A0 I'm not saying
> it couldn't be done
> but I would argue it should not be done as part of "standards&quo= t; BIER.
> <chair>If that didn't sink
> in "standards" track puts us on a much higher bar of thinkin= g what the
> impact of all
> the stuff we're doing is and will be, there is all the work to com= e in the
> future and going on today
> that will have to start to answer to "HOW will that work with BIE= R?". That
> puts quite some
>=C2=A0 responsibility on us from now on. </chair>

True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not try = to
find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP encap
option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit missing
for that option.

so that's what the= thread is all about. My take (and I'm one voice but Greg builds consen= us having called it) that I'm all dandy to make "BIFT-id MUST be c= apable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop at = "here's one information, recommended encoding"
=C2=A0

> > Of course, this problem could equally be solved with IGP extensio= ns,
> > ability to reduce the risk for this in the forwarding plane.
> >
> > > Generally true for attempts to push
> > > control plane functionality into data plane ...
> >
> > Like replacing perfectly fine control plane signalled multicast t= rees with
> > destination bits in packets ? ;-P
>
> and mildly touche ;-) You're nasty but in a nice way ;-)=C2=A0 yea= h, we're doing
> it, don't we ;-)

And proud for it ;-)

And please = don't stop ;-) BIER is not built around singing kumbaya too often ;-)
=C2=A0

Don't keep up the draft from being accepted by WG on my behalf, i'l= l
just continue pounding on my opinion that i want a fully standardized
IP BIER stack equally simple to configure to what we have in MPLS.

I'm just one voice but I'll pound most = likely with the charter if we try to make the mapping algorithm a "sta= ndard" because from my experience, exposing control plane elements to = fast path ends up in tears. We may end up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know= , just an example) and then what will you do with this "this is contro= l-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path", especially if it's standard. We= 'll have a "broken" standard after stuff is deployed. There i= s a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structure to them.
= =C2=A0

And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to std,
there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG reconsider
its target.


<chair> Consensus= was called for informational, if you want to change the scope to "sta= ndard" that's a very different kettle of fish & Greg has to ca= ll a new adoption call IMSO. </chair>

--- tony
=
=C2=A0
--089e0823766c51bb1b0566caa5ac-- From nobody Wed Mar 7 14:08:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAA512D88A for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 14:08:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NSBwVXSFgwR7 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 14:08:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C270412D7EF for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 14:08:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 578C058C50B; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 23:08:30 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 44287B0DC71; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 23:08:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 23:08:30 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Message-ID: <20180307220830.GA926@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307023238.GB12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 22:08:37 -0000 On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is like > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on ... That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this discussion. The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting the semantic of the BIFT-ID field. The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to established practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already exists in another part of the header). In another assigned value it means the remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN controller). We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to be safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially inconsistent semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation issue. But it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration required: all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. Its the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if it was standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational suggestion. Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 bit to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the full 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the current > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - unless we make > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static provisioning being > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, otherwise the > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one would bother > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a network wide consistent semantic ? IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working interoperable solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on standardized network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is always an interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past most, primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee above for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred standard semantic" is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisioned and give > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And build some > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but please, not as > part of standard track OAM How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what version of the packet it is... Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the drafts life more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted interpretation of flexibility - or not. > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover thre > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID > > hop-by-hop..). > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space and signal > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for people right > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the benefits first ;-) Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap option/benefits.. 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not try to > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP encap > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit missing > > for that option. > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one voice but Greg > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make "BIFT-id MUST > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop at > "here's one information, recommended encoding" Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there.. To me it just means to end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution and with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and would still allow for other options). > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter if we try to > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my experience, > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We may end > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then what will > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path", > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard after stuff is > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structure to > them. Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just need to know SI,SD. (already have HSL). Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing something very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to std, > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG reconsider > > its target. > > > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to change the > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & Greg has to > call a new adoption call IMSO. Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right now because i love the work, but i think without being standards track its just introducing more confusion than benefit. Cheers Toerless > > --- tony > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Mar 7 15:49:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44409124B18 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:49:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ew95RLrSwBVU for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:49:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B00412008A for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:49:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id z9so7827064wmb.3 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 15:48:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=djpV4NHv5avodVvhujN3EtTcRyfVkHwN2UoO+YSJuqA=; b=oqn85O1vSJFwZlAayajnxcwQwk63Zv7DezvMyKb8XRCGjwQ2ESRaJG6kEEoSNEWPrD LlvcCOWptwatdUbCDsozt68I51mF+n+X7gTg8vg1+Y/4IRXd0PT1knERh1c0TRpzYMuJ igW+CIxaKpItoO/HJcVR7c+b+lxYh3vLmGaUGsjKcDhsSO8YK/CFABa+YTOGYAdcHAJB sy58KWXBUO9Uvhers/bKdgqzRACJxECULubG4eN0Q+SvgNUHO8MqEmgjiAUQ5hYMib1/ 25cwxE4XtfWKc7cwRzwa8kNP/T8RR+G6tD6rw3/j3qMJnYIo1cXXF7Vbso+jJHJcrkR7 20Qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=djpV4NHv5avodVvhujN3EtTcRyfVkHwN2UoO+YSJuqA=; b=m8UslX8tKzCZKUKNiFWG9vX2P0pBMv0akqhFyuInar2m24tu3kx0wx4aktXupc2gZx AXkOQKk14IHNyID0XIR6DAFA24uGdATQctYO4uEQYgfDpeo+4jhX4yfR3A3mXnxxmzcW 60os2eEPutasI2j/HF7UKNgarMFTmaj2bBIGbFzNd1Nc49T4lENJaYKxsvMto/fVMgUA Cy0a9mphTZuJy0pqNs284iYTfUtSICxSc/HBeQGyTEHw95M3TrIQ4QMPyV9qYHNMy4h3 GBqAuRyIWPCYk2efaS5dLPX4nYYp07SeTGfIijXb+mKy3M8adXJyeoN0n/ufH6DfLxjG fzcA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EBjCNRHywY6Qh38s75GBEmP1E507JbBmNXMfW8StSZ4Px7CAii H3KtaP+/qWWhVrEt7WcO+JHxJCiLVbjxRZF/frk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtuAZ/CJfDT2kmmyepirol1rLr0o8tglScqw8MUYvv29NVqHoK0oNfi/xNaVY+m6MUY++IY7IGOqLJKAI3d0rI= X-Received: by 10.80.231.18 with SMTP id a18mr9622521edn.240.1520466538563; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 15:48:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:48:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20180307220830.GA926@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307023238.GB12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307220830.GA926@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:48:17 -0800 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e082f6340ec8b660566db33a2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 23:49:03 -0000 --089e082f6340ec8b660566db33a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're calling a standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely now a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps (I'm neutral) c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps (I'm against) d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) fair 'nuff? -- tony On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is like > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on ... > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this > discussion. > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting the > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to established > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already exists > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it means the > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN > controller). > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to be > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially inconsistent > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation issue. But > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration required: > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. Its > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if it was > standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational > suggestion. > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 bit > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the full > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the current > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - unless we > make > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > > > > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static provisioning > being > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, otherwise the > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one would bother > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a network > wide > consistent semantic ? > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working > interoperable > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on standardized > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is always an > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past most, > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee above > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred standard > semantic" > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisioned and > give > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And build some > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but please, not as > > part of standard track OAM > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what version of > the packet it is... > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the drafts life > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted interpretation of > flexibility - or not. > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover thre > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID > > > hop-by-hop..). > > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space and > signal > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for people > right > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the benefits first > ;-) > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap option/benefits.. > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not try to > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP encap > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit missing > > > for that option. > > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one voice but > Greg > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make "BIFT-id > MUST > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop at > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there.. To me it just means to > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution and > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and would > still > allow for other options). > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter if we try > to > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my experience, > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We may end > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then what will > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path", > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard after stuff > is > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structure to > > them. > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just need to > know SI,SD. > (already have HSL). > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing something > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to std, > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG reconsider > > > its target. > > > > > > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to change the > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & Greg has to > > call a new adoption call IMSO. > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right now > because i > love the work, but i think without being standards track its just > introducing > more confusion than benefit. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > > --- tony > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > --089e082f6340ec8b660566db33a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, I voiced my opinion and stop = here and wait now whether we're calling a standards track here and what= the scope of the ask is precisely now

a) having writable Yang= BIFT-ids=C2=A0 (I'm for)
b) having an informational mapping f= or network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps (I'm neutral)
c) h= aving standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps (I'm= against)
d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I= 'm neutral)

fair 'nuff?

-- ton= y


=

On Wed, Mar 7, 20= 18 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM= -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is like<= br> > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on ...

That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this discussion= .

The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting=C2=A0 the=
semantic of the BIFT-ID field.

The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to established practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the
remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments.
In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already exists
in another part of the header). In another assigned value it means the
remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN controller)= .

We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to= be
safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea.

If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially inconsistent semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation issue. B= ut
it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration required:=
all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. Its
the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if it was
standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational suggestio= n.

Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks:
We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if
the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 bit
to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the f= ull
20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms.

> > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the curren= t
> > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards&= quot; - unless we make
> > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard.
> >
>
> well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static provision= ing being
> as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, otherwise t= he
> whole world would still route using static routes and no'one would= bother
> with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-)

Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a network w= ide
consistent semantic ?

IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working interopera= ble
solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on standardized<= br> network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements.

Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is always an<= br> interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past most,
primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee above for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred standard se= mantic"
is definitely part of the best working solution strategy.

> IMO best you=C2=A0 can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisione= d and give
> people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And build so= me
> informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but p= lease, not as
> part of standard track OAM

How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what version o= f
the packet it is...

Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the drafts life<= br> more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted interpretation of
flexibility - or not.

> > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover = thre
> > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. An= d
> > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID=
> > hop-by-hop..).
>
> who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label sp= ace and signal
> that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for people = right
> there ;-)=C2=A0 0x8847 has a point ;-)

Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the bene= fits first ;-)

Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap option/benefits.= .
9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed).

> > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not t= ry to
> > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP= encap
> > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit m= issing
> > for that option.
>
> so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one v= oice but Greg
> builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make "= ;BIFT-id MUST
> be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll= stop at
> "here's one information, recommended encoding"

Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there.. To me it ju= st means to
end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution and
with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and would stil= l
allow for other options).

> I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter= if we try to
> make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my expe= rience,
> exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We may = end
> up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then what w= ill
> you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path&= quot;,
> especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" s= tandard after stuff is
> deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structure to=
> them.

Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just nee= d to know SI,SD.
(already have HSL).

Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing something
very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought.

> > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to s= td,
> > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG reco= nsider
> > its target.
> >
> >
> <chair> Consensus was called for informational, if you want to c= hange the
> scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fi= sh & Greg has to
> call a new adoption call IMSO. </chair>

Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right now = because i
love the work, but i think without being standards track its just introduci= ng
more confusion than benefit.

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless
>
> --- tony

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

--089e082f6340ec8b660566db33a2-- From nobody Wed Mar 7 16:45:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5FA126BF6 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:45:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dDcHA2WHh3dw for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C690C12008A for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id a20so25061339wmd.1 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 16:45:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=krxJtp6jbTG8v3mvjEaRXC+4iRWPcZ2AwXqvKLqM+F4=; b=JdNGgN2NxpD7T0LLacDFHd4ZvfvwxCTF2SM+e4mq5YSgCZwgH7Cd3NCxepQVlOCpMC W543M2moBeec0Td6Q0Pv/4WWyd4eDV3hbz6DsrMhXvXBJa5wRAvbF6gDvOAuLaD30SQB M1/iLMd5TfEgC9fMrxJw+ne9L3TLb43k9DCVH/QPbyo5Q7TzrwwwAZzKv+cbmKrdSNJS fgYz+3zqnUbLLr0gdO9szmwrD4nNEkC1aGB7DrR577Mlp1LJnYNRVhVV7oN9EidA88hu sgIGYqrbRGSmhelZ5XveHEh5MoPbbczr4QnQ1bLouPGkWw8CLllxsa/Qq7Q6BB2PC/Q6 TqTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=krxJtp6jbTG8v3mvjEaRXC+4iRWPcZ2AwXqvKLqM+F4=; b=NPKNthBNeeEL16yjgxB4YrLwjKHgp3yT2L7LmYgu211eCwm1RfBzQ1iatMecl5mqAE qxXmzXQa69uduDsIfRi4DagIgj1f+ckd+7m9b1tORF9IiFbuycCGpR2Kx402g+kkQQu1 CDZ2oqRBrmmX+1NcIagnV1U5IKD4DbGMd4mVgL0vQsBSQEFtUGtTacV45B5uGd0AwJkr 7FrzS9k/KEACLtx/6iLKuWn7DYgBsCDT9M7USaka3SG0zzvbnXwncGcao2M76Yj+zjys bTRS4i0LCucnRNK9cfuEmgbvo7yiqi9tF7iux/5CtEDNmnq9hNEHxEpx5FIeIWygfKgZ 8xDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBLC1is3kDYPWcRVUDTN7NM/VhCRP7B9vxzH5vQhNfK46LTwN2T aLJOz4//AIjPT9D6kxQi6A5zoDf48rBQPylf4wYa29rr X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvSs2Wn6u6RnLWu55m2ZBVUz1Jx9621n5RmKn3JOHMexc6wDDmhoPCXB1p7EQv8C0farSIEkmZww5v3453Mwyw= X-Received: by 10.80.131.67 with SMTP id 61mr29611544edh.16.1520469924669; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 16:45:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:44:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2A9604F5-3C94-4BE8-825D-DBE13FEDB222@jisc.ac.uk> <1519314397.743980027@f19.my.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:44:44 -0800 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="94eb2c0da412c0983e0566dbfd90" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 00:45:34 -0000 --94eb2c0da412c0983e0566dbfd90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0da412c098390566dbfd8f" --94eb2c0da412c098390566dbfd8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable contraband just arrived, some people will be jealous ;-P On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:05 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Signed off proofs > > https://www.customink.com/proof_approvals/4546895?token=3D > 289e6c62-1796-11e8-ace8-0a92749b9112#proof_0_closeup > > they simplified colors a bit but looks OK to me ... Should have them 8th > or so ... > > --- tony > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: > >> Stig, yeah, you probably are reading other boring wg threads while I'm >> getting here the _real_ work done ;-) ;-) >> >> You snooze, you loose (but I'll see what my luggage can bear) ... >> >> --- tony >> >> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:01 AM, Stig Venaas wrote: >> >>> I guess it may be too late for me to request an XL? >>> >>> My fault for not paying attention to this important thread. >>> >>> Stig >>> >>> >>> On Feb 22, 2018 07:46, "Tony Przygienda" wrote: >>> >>> Your T-shirt is honorary on the group >>> >>> Thanks for the design >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from myMail for iOS >>> >>> >>> Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 23:54 -0800 from Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk < >>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>: >>> >>> Excellent, thanks Tony. >>> >>> The green is fine (we can call it bottle green!), and the logo is biiig >>> so I think Peter will catch us easily without a long lens :) >>> >>> I can pay in =C2=A3s or biers ... >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> On 22 Feb 2018, at 06:21, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>> >>> OK, order placed. Currently I'm planning to bring @ ~17$/each >>> >>> Andrew L >>> Alia XL >>> me L >>> GregS M >>> GregM 2L >>> Toerless XXL >>> Acee XL >>> Tim XXL >>> Ice XXL, XL, L >>> Les M >>> >>> I have more than this ordered but I have weight restrictions traveling >>> so don't beg, you had your chance ... >>> >>> Design below, the forest green was carefully considered by my 3 girls >>> here and approved as the only one passing minimum fashion bar. Sorrrrrr= y >>> ;-) >>> >>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier2/tst0-00bb-4gxq/share >>> ?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&utm_source=3Dshar >>> e%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&utm_content=3Dshared%20desktop >>> >>> you can always reorder or set up a group order >>> >>> The parties above are _obliged_ by a stiff penalty of paying a round of >>> beer after the workgroup meet to wear the T-shirt to the WG. If you >>> misjudged you size, I mis-quote our AD as in "It's NOT nice" but you ha= ve >>> to wear it anyway in some form or fashion ... Ice, you are granted a >>> special dispensation and it's enough you just wear one of the three but= we >>> encourage creative 3-t-shirt-fashion-statements ... Same for Greg. >>> Bandanas, Fez, diapers, possibilities are limitless ... >>> >>> I trust Peter L to bring one of his 50lb lenses to capture the occasion >>> ... >>> >>> --- tony >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote= : >>> >>> You are incorrect, Sir. Greg S is an M in T. S Ts often fit my torso >>> better, but they cut into my arm pits. For the record.. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 16:49, Tim Chown wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > Thanks for this - XXL (due the beer Stig forces me to drink ;) >>> > >>> > Tim >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:23, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Ah, now i know. >>> >> >>> >> There is Greg S&M and Greg M2L. >>> >> >>> >> That's easy to remember. ;-) >>> >> >>> >> [PC disclaimer: both this and my prior email on this thread where >>> tongue in cheek]. >>> >> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 01:01:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>> >>> Greg S =3D Shep >>> >>> Greg M =3D Mirsky >>> >>> >>> >>> You have been couple times around IETF, haven't you Toerless ;-) >>> [just >>> >>> tongue in cheek] >>> >>> >>> >>> albeit I agree that having the first letters of their last name >>> >>> corresponding to T-shirt sizing is an intriguing mystery of the >>> universe >>> >>> probably needing an entry in the Hitchhiker ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> --- tony >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Toerless Eckert >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> a) Thank you so much ! >>> >>>> >>> >>>> b) > GregS M >>> >>>>> GregM 2L >>> >>>> >>> >>>> hmm.. i am confused. >>> >>>> Looks as if we have Greg Small, Greg Medium, and 2 Greg Large, bu= t >>> who >>> >>>> is who... ;) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Cheers >>> >>>> Toerless >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:37:10PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>> >>>>> OK, I just realized I can only bring a certain amount of stuff >>> weight >>> >>>> wise >>> >>>>> anyway. I have currently >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Andrew L >>> >>>>> Alia ? >>> >>>>> me L >>> >>>>> GregS M >>> >>>>> GregM 2L >>> >>>>> Toerless XXL >>> >>>>> Acee XL >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I will order the following mix >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 10% XXL >>> >>>>> 20% XL >>> >>>>> 40% L >>> >>>>> 20% M >>> >>>>> 10% S >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> and bring as many I manage to London (expect 10 or so) along this >>> mix >>> >>>>> including the pre-ordered sizes if people want (looks about >>> 20$/pop). I >>> >>>>> will try to open a group order as well so e'one can just >>> additional ones >>> >>>>> (but of course I will not sign those as limited edition ;-) >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> check the design on >>> >>>>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier/tst0-00bb-1c6c/ >>> >>>> share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&utm_ >>> >>>> source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&utm_ >>> >>>> content=3Dshared%20desktop >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> and let me know whether it's acceptable. I pushed it down to 5 >>> colors and >>> >>>>> no back text to keep price in check ... >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Greg Shepherd >>> wrote: >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> :D >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Custom Ink. You'll need an account to buy anyway. Once a shirt i= s >>> >>>> designed >>> >>>>>> it can be shared and ordered at will. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Toerless Eckert >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Hah, clone of lmgtfy. You score one gotcha point. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Before responding to your first email, i tried four randomn >>> shops, and >>> >>>>>>> they >>> >>>>>>> all wanted my email to send me a quote. Too annoyed about that = to >>> >>>>>>> continue. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>> >>>>>>> toerless >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:29:36PM -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> http://bfy.tw/FXAz >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Toerless Eckert >> > >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Any recommendations for online services that print even a >>> single >>> >>>>>>> shirt ? >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Was wondering about the process today. Have not done it in a >>> long >>> >>>>>>> time. >>> >>>>>>>>> Back then >>> >>>>>>>>> low volume =3D iron-on process =3D some nasty rubbery carrier >>> >>>> material =3D=3D >>> >>>>>>> maybe >>> >>>>>>>>> even easier to do @home. Used to do it @home for proofing, bu= t >>> >>>> don't >>> >>>>>>> like >>> >>>>>>>>> results. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:06:16PM -0800, Greg Shepherd wrot= e: >>> >>>>>>>>>> T-'s online are fast and cheap. We could each just steal the >>> art >>> >>>>>>> and make >>> >>>>>>>>>> our own shirts. At our low count, I don't it will make a pri= ce >>> >>>>>>>>> difference. >>> >>>>>>>>>> There has been discussion about options. Point me to the art= . >>> >>>> I'll >>> >>>>>>> buy >>> >>>>>>>>> into >>> >>>>>>>>>> the default shirt, but I promise I will have my own one-off >>> BIER >>> >>>>>>> shirt >>> >>>>>>>>> too. >>> >>>>>>>>>> You've been warned. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Greg >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Toerless Eckert < >>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:13:18PM -0800, Tony Przygienda >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sizes pls ping to list here. I order a pile with spares an= d >>> >>>> I >>> >>>>>>> will >>> >>>>>>>>> try to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pinch 10-15$ poll tax in London for the historically >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> once-in-a-lifetime-but-survives-three-washes-only produce >>> >>>> ... >>> >>>>>>> If you >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pretend to be a student it maybe less ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> XXL if its good quality pre-shrunk cotton. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> XXXL otherwise. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what you can get for 10..15$ these days. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> And also: >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Vielen Dank >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Muchas Gracias >>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't speak F#$^*$% latin. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Toerless >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so, BIER aficionados, shoot ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Jeff Tantsura < >>> >>>>>>>>> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +1! >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Tim Chown >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 15:05 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Tony Przygienda >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *"gjshep@gmail.com" , IJsbrand >>> >>>>>>> Wijnands < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky , >>> >>>> BIER WG >>> >>>>>>> < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org>, Stig Venaas , Toerless >>> >>>>>>> Eckert < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de>, Jeff Tantsura , >>> >>>> Loa >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Andersson < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> loa@pi.nu> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll email the high-res version to you and Greg offlist a= s >>> >>>>>>> it's >>> >>>>>>>>> quite >>> >>>>>>>>>>> big. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 22:11, Tony Przygienda < >>> >>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The last/gold one is _beautiful_. Let's replace the IETF >>> >>>> with >>> >>>>>>>>> RFC8279 >>> >>>>>>>>>>> and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> keep the hilarious "ABV3.7%" for the conoscenti and we're >>> >>>>>>> game I >>> >>>>>>>>> think >>> >>>>>>>>>>> ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 1:17 PM, Tim Chown < >>> >>>>>>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> More low-res options / colours attached. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Can encode Ethertype as ABV? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Play with https://www.beerlabelizer.com ;) You can >>> >>>> export >>> >>>>>>> pretty >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> high-res versions too. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm getting thirsty... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:47, Greg Shepherd >> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be nice too. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Tony Przygienda < >>> >>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, maybe more gold/black but otherwise, cool ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd still like to get the EtherType on it, that's a >>> >>>> biggie ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Another rev? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 12:09 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands < >>> >>>>>>> ice@cisco.com >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Love it :-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:39, Tim Chown >> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 16:08, Tony Przygienda < >>> >>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Suggest the clever text, Mr. Witty ;-) I would tend to >>> >>>> go >>> >>>>>>> with >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> black/gold on white, that is chintz ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Finding http://andyslusher.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/7- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sources-for-creating-your-own.html >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> led to the very fun to play with >>> >>>>>>> https://www.beerlabelizer.com/ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> resulting in the attached, the higher res version of whic= h >>> >>>>>>> could >>> >>>>>>>>> go on >>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> black or other tee, or on a bottle on a tee. Or not, but >>> >>>>>>> maybe >>> >>>>>>>>> there's >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration somewhere there ;) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Greg Shepherd < >>> >>>>>>> gjshep@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a fan of loads of mixed colors. Simple one or two >>> >>>>>>> colors, >>> >>>>>>>>>>> clever >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> text to make them think. I'd like the arch RFC and maybe >>> >>>> the >>> >>>>>>>>>>> ethertype. PIM >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> being hauled off on a bier (look it up) would be fun. :) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Tony Przygienda < >>> >>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa, thanks for the eclectic suggestion ;-) So that would >>> >>>> be >>> >>>>>>> black >>> >>>>>>>>> & >>> >>>>>>>>>>> gold >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on white with some quirky font? Stig concurs? ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:23 PM, Loa Andersson < >>> >>>> loa@pi.nu> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony, Jeff.et.al., >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since we are about to go to London, why no Samuel >>> >>>> Smithie's >>> >>>>>>>>> Imperial >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stout, just use the (white) label against black backgroun= d >>> >>>>>>> (as the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bottle). >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/113/782/ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the best beers brewed, especially if you can get >>> >>>> one >>> >>>>>>> that >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is about 10 years old. ANd a very nice label on that >>> >>>> bottle. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> /Loa >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-01-18 06:14, Jeff Tantsura wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How about Berliner Weisse? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *BIER on behalf of Tony >>> >>>>>>> Przygienda >>> >>>>>>>>> < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 08:25 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Stig Venaas >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky , BIER WG < >>> >>>>>>> bier@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>> , >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Toerless Eckert >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Listening ... Would have to be pilsner ... Guiness on >>> >>>> black >>> >>>>>>>>> T-shirt is >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably not viable ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, given we have ladies in the group and >>> >>>>>>> probably >>> >>>>>>>>> no >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> aspiration to be a deaf punk band or something I'd tend t= o >>> >>>>>>> hold to >>> >>>>>>>>> a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lighter color albeit we could go for a black font (font >>> >>>>>>> without >>> >>>>>>>>> sword >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> points though ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 8:13 AM, Stig Venaas < >>> >>>> stig@venaas.com >>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> stig@venaas.com>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Great! How about a black shirt with kind of beer >>> >>>> colored >>> >>>>>>>>> text/logo? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stig >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2018 17:17, "Greg Mirsky" < >>> >>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tony, et. al. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Firstly, congratulations! >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, happy New Year and the best wishes to >>> >>>> All! >>> >>>>>>> (BTW, >>> >>>>>>>>> do >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you know that Russians celebrate the Old New Year >>> >>>>>>> January >>> >>>>>>>>> 13th. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, happy Old New Year too.) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, about that design. Like imagery but not >>> >>>> colors. >>> >>>>>>> Can we >>> >>>>>>>>>>> have >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the back in Union Jack colors? That said, sign me >>> >>>> in >>> >>>>>>> for 1. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Tony Przygienda >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Waiting for more ideas & chime ups ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to go with the company I suggested and >>> >>>> will >>> >>>>>>>>> modify >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> design to people's liking ... Will be group >>> >>>> order, >>> >>>>>>>>>>> depending >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on number (I think min is 30) it's about 12$ >>> >>>> each >>> >>>>>>> ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> will post in a bit ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Toerless >>> >>>> Eckert >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a german brewery called >>> >>>> "bitburger" >>> >>>>>>> and >>> >>>>>>>>> they >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a range of >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> promotional articles including t-shirts >>> >>>> and >>> >>>>>>>>> backpacks >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with their slogan >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on it: "Bitte ein Bit" - "one bit please": >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://shop.bitburger.de/ >>> >>>>>>>>> Basic-Line/Herren-T-Shirt- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenner-M-oxid.html >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So the quick option is to get one of those >>> >>>>>>> t-shirts >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cross out the "ein" (one) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and write "256" over it. It will become >>> >>>> more >>> >>>>>>>>> expensive >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> though, when you go into >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a pub with that t-shirt and ask "who >>> >>>> wants to >>> >>>>>>> be my >>> >>>>>>>>>>> BFER >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ?". >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh well,... i digress. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for t-shirt. Any design is fine for me. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Custom beer coasters could be interesting >>> >>>> too >>> >>>>>>> given >>> >>>>>>>>>>> some >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> good design idea. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> toerles >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 09:09:49AM -0800, >>> >>>> Tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Przygienda wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess it's T-shirts time ;-) I >>> >>>> really >>> >>>>>>>>> wanted >>> >>>>>>>>>>> it >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be B336 or B33B >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that will do ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one told me there was a specific >>> >>>> value >>> >>>>>>>>> request >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ;-) T-shirts are always >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun; but since BIER is an overlay >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for carrying traffic, maybe a >>> >>>> backpack >>> >>>>>>> would >>> >>>>>>>>> be >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more appropriate? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't dare and given how hard they >>> >>>> are >>> >>>>>>> to get >>> >>>>>>>>>>> it's >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> great we got one >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> without much friction ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group order open, if I get 30 together, >>> >>>>>>> I'll >>> >>>>>>>>> order >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and bring along to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> London ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like this? comments ? If >>> >>>>>>> interest, I >>> >>>>>>>>> open >>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> group order ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Didn't we request one for downstream >>> >>>>>>>>> assigned and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> one upstream assigned >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or did I get mixed up ? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No - we just requested one for the >>> >>>>>>> Ethernet >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> encapsulation version. There >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no upstream and downstream >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned for the BIFT-id values. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant equivalent of >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0x8847 and 0x8848 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but so far we have only downstream >>> >>>>>>> signalling >>> >>>>>>>>> and no >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> proposals of upstream >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one so we probably shouldn't push our >>> >>>> luck >>> >>>>>>> ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________ >>> >>>>>>> _________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/ >>> >>>> listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________ >>> >>>> _________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ BIER >>> >>>> mailing >>> >>>>>>> list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior MPLS Expert >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 >>> >>>> 64 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>> >>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>> >>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>> --- >>> >>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> --- >>> >>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> --- >>> >> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > --94eb2c0da412c098390566dbfd8f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
contraband just arrived, some people will be jealous ;-P
=C2=A0


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:05 AM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gm= ail.com> wrote:
they simplified colors a bit but looks OK to me .= .. Should have them 8th or so ...

--- tony

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Ton= y Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div class=3D"h5">
= Stig, yeah, you probably are reading other boring wg threads while I'm = getting here the _real_ work done ;-) ;-)

You snooze, you loos= e (but I'll see what my luggage can bear) ...

--- tony
<= /font>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:01 AM, Stig Venaas <<= a href=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank">stig@venaas.com>= wrote:
I guess = it may be too late for me to request an XL?

My fault for not paying attention to this important thread.

Stig
<= div dir=3D"auto">

On Feb 22, 2018 07:46, "Tony Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:=
Your T-shirt is honorary on the group

Thanks for the design



Sent from myMail for iOS


Wed= nesday, February 21, 2018, 23:54 -0800 from Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>:

=09
=09 =09
Excellent, thanks Tony.

The green is fine (we can call it bottle green!), and the logo is biii= g so I think Peter will catch us easily without a long lens :)

I can pay in =C2=A3s or biers ...

Tim

On 22 Feb 2018, at 06:21, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:

OK, order placed. Currently I'm planning to bring @ ~17$/each

Andrew L
Alia=C2=A0 XL
me =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 L
GregS M
GregM 2L
Toerless XXL
Acee XL
Tim XXL
Ice XXL, XL, L
Les M

I have more than this ordered but I have weight restrictions traveling so d= on't beg, you had your chance ...

Design below, the forest green was carefully considered by my 3 girls here = and approved as the only one passing minimum fashion bar. Sorrrrrry ;-)=C2= =A0

https://www.customink.com/designs/bier2/tst0-00bb-4gx= q/share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&u= tm_source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&utm= _content=3Dshared%20desktop

you can always reorder or set up a group order

The parties above are _obliged_ by a stiff penalty of paying a round of bee= r after the workgroup meet to wear the T-shirt to the WG. If you misjudged = you size, I mis-quote our AD as in "It's NOT nice" but you ha= ve to wear it anyway in some form or fashion ...=C2=A0 Ice, you are granted a special dispensation and it's enough you just w= ear one of the three but we encourage creative 3-t-shirt-fashion-statements= ... Same for Greg. Bandanas, Fez, diapers, possibilities are limitless ...

I trust Peter L to bring one of his 50lb lenses to capture the occasion ...=

--- tony

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
You are incorrect, Sir. Greg S is an M in T. S Ts often fit my torso better= , but they cut into my arm pits. For the record..

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 16:49, Tim Chown <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for this - XXL (due the beer Stig forces me to drink ;)
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>> On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:23, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>>
>> Ah, now i know.
>>
>> There is Greg S&M and Greg M2L.
>>
>> That's easy to remember.=C2=A0 ;-)
>>
>> [PC disclaimer: both this and my prior email on this thread where = tongue in cheek].
>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 01:01:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrot= e:
>>> Greg S =3D Shep
>>> Greg M =3D Mirsky
>>>
>>> You have been couple times around IETF, haven't you Toerle= ss ;-)=C2=A0 [just
>>> tongue in cheek]
>>>
>>> albeit I agree that having the first letters of their last nam= e
>>> corresponding to T-shirt sizing is an intriguing mystery of th= e universe
>>> probably needing an entry in the Hitchhiker ;-)
>>>
>>> --- tony
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:=
>>>>
>>>> a) Thank you so much !
>>>>
>>>> b) > GregS M
>>>>> GregM 2L
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 hmm.. i am confused.
>>>>=C2=A0 Looks as if we have Greg Small, Greg Medium, and 2 G= reg Large, but who
>>>> is who... ;)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:37:10PM -0800, Tony Przygie= nda wrote:
>>>>> OK, I just realized I can only bring a certain amount = of stuff weight
>>>> wise
>>>>> anyway. I have currently
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew L
>>>>> Alia=C2=A0 ?
>>>>> me=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0L
>>>>> GregS M
>>>>> GregM 2L
>>>>> Toerless XXL
>>>>> Acee XL
>>>>>
>>>>> I will order the following mix
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 10% XXL
>>>>> 20% XL
>>>>> 40% L
>>>>> 20% M
>>>>> 10% S
>>>>>
>>>>> and bring as many I manage to London (expect 10 or so)= along this mix
>>>>> including the pre-ordered sizes if people want (looks = about 20$/pop). I
>>>>> will try to open a group order as well so e'one ca= n just additional ones
>>>>> (but of course I will not sign those as limited editio= n ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> check the design on
>>>>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier/tst0-00bb-1c6c/
>>>> share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20de= sign&utm_
>>>> source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20desig= n&utm_
>>>> content=3Dshared%20desktop
>>>>>
>>>>> and let me know whether it's acceptable. I pushed = it down to 5 colors and
>>>>> no back text to keep price in check ...
>>>>>
>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Greg Shepherd <= ;gjshep@gmail.com= > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Custom Ink. You'll need an account to buy anyw= ay. Once a shirt is
>>>> designed
>>>>>> it can be shared and ordered at will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Toerless Eckert &= lt;tte@cs.fau.de>=
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hah, clone of lmgtfy. You score one gotcha poi= nt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Before responding to your first email, i tried= four randomn shops, and
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> all wanted my email to send me a quote. Too an= noyed about that to
>>>>>>> continue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 toerless
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:29:36PM -0800, = Greg Shepherd wrote:
>>>>>>>> http://bfy.tw/FXAz
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Toerless = Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de= >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any recommendations for online service= s that print even a single
>>>>>>> shirt ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Was wondering about the process today.= Have not done it in a long
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>> Back then
>>>>>>>>> low volume =3D iron-on process =3D som= e nasty rubbery carrier
>>>> material =3D=3D
>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>> even easier to do @home. Used to do it= @home for proofing, but
>>>> don't
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:06:16PM= -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> T-'s online are fast and cheap= . We could each just steal the art
>>>>>>> and make
>>>>>>>>>> our own shirts. At our low count, = I don't it will make a price
>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>> There has been discussion about op= tions. Point me to the art.
>>>> I'll
>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>> the default shirt, but I promise I= will have my own one-off BIER
>>>>>>> shirt
>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>> You've been warned.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:56 PM, T= oerless Eckert <tte@c= s.fau.de
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:13:= 18PM -0800, Tony Przygienda
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sizes pls ping to list her= e. I order a pile with spares and
>>>> I
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> try to
>>>>>>>>>>>> pinch 10-15$ poll tax in L= ondon for the historically
>>>>>>>>>>>> once-in-a-lifetime-but-sur= vives-three-washes-only produce
>>>> ...
>>>>>>> If you
>>>>>>>>>>>> pretend to be a student it= maybe less ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> XXL if its good quality pre-sh= runk cotton.
>>>>>>>>>>> XXXL otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what you can get for = 10..15$ these days.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And also:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>>>> Vielen Dank
>>>>>>>>>>> Muchas Gracias
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't speak F#$^*$% lati= n.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so, BIER aficionados, shoo= t ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:= 29 PM, Jeff Tantsura <
>>>>>>>>> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Tim Chown <= Tim.Chown@jisc.ac= .uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Thursday, Janu= ary 18, 2018 at 15:05
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Tony Przygienda = <tonysietf@gmai= l.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *"gjshep@gmail.com" <= gjshep@gmail.com&= gt;, IJsbrand
>>>>>>> Wijnands <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,
>>>> BIER WG
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org>, Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>, Toer= less
>>>>>>> Eckert <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail= .com>,
>>>> Loa
>>>>>>>>>>> Andersson <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> loa@pi.nu>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] = BIER Ethertype assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll email the hig= h-res version to you and Greg offlist as
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>>>> big.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 22:= 11, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The last/gold one is _= beautiful_.=C2=A0 Let's replace the IETF
>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> RFC8279
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep the hilarious &qu= ot;ABV3.7%" for the conoscenti and we're
>>>>>>> game I
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 1:17 PM, Tim Chown <
>>>>>>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> More low-res options /= colours attached.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can encode Ethertype a= s ABV?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Play with https://www.beerlabelizer.com ;)=C2=A0 =C2=A0You can
>>>> export
>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> high-res versions too.=
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm getting thirst= y...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:= 47, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be nice too= .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 12:27 PM, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, maybe more gold/bl= ack but otherwise, cool ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd still like to = get the EtherType on it, that's a
>>>> biggie ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another rev?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 12:09 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands <
>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Love it :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:= 39, Tim Chown <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 16:= 08, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suggest the clever tex= t, Mr. Witty ;-)=C2=A0 =C2=A0I would tend to
>>>> go
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> black/gold on white, t= hat is chintz ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finding http://andyslusher.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/7-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sources-for-creating-y= our-own.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> led to the very fun to= play with
>>>>>>> https://www.beerlabelizer.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> resulting in the attac= hed, the higher res version of which
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>> go on
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> black or other tee, or= on a bottle on a tee.=C2=A0 Or not, but
>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration somewhere = there ;)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <bier-label-small.p= ng>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 7:54 AM, Greg Shepherd <
>>>>>>> gjshep@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a fan of l= oads of mixed colors. Simple one or two
>>>>>>> colors,
>>>>>>>>>>> clever
>>>>>>>>>>>>> text to make them thin= k. I'd like the arch RFC and maybe
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> ethertype. PIM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being hauled off on a = bier (look it up) would be fun. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 11:43 PM, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa, thanks for the ec= lectic suggestion ;-) So that would
>>>> be
>>>>>>> black
>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>> gold
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on white with some qui= rky font?=C2=A0 Stig concurs?=C2=A0 ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 11:23 PM, Loa Andersson <
>>>> loa@pi.nu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony, Jeff.et.al.,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since we are about to = go to London, why no Samuel
>>>> Smithie's
>>>>>>>>> Imperial
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stout, just use the (w= hite) label against black background
>>>>>>> (as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bottle).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/113/782/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the best beers = brewed, especially if you can get
>>>> one
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is about 10 years old.= ANd a very nice label on that
>>>> bottle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Loa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-01-18 06:14, J= eff Tantsura wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about Berliner Wei= sse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Tony
>>>>>>> Przygienda
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, Jan= uary 17, 2018 at 08:25
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Stig Venaas <= stig@venaas.com>= ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmai= l.com>, BIER WG <
>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] = BIER Ethertype assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Listening ... Would ha= ve to be pilsner ... Guiness on
>>>> black
>>>>>>>>> T-shirt is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably not viable ;-= )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, giv= en we have ladies in the group and
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspiration to be a dea= f punk band or something I'd tend to
>>>>>>> hold to
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lighter color albeit w= e could go for a black font (font
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>> sword
>>>>>>>>>>>>> points though ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 8:13 AM, Stig Venaas <
>>>> stig@= venaas.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stig@venaas.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Great! How= about a black shirt with kind of beer
>>>> colored
>>>>>>>>> text/logo?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Stig
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0On Jan 15,= 2018 17:17, "Greg Mirsky" <
>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto= :gregimirsky@gma= il.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Hi Tony, et. al.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Firstly, congratulations!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Secondly, happy New Year and the best wishes to
>>>> All!
>>>>>>> (BTW,
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0you know that Russians celebrate the Old New Year
>>>>>>> January
>>>>>>>>> 13th.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0So, happy Old New Year too.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Now, about that design. Like imagery but not
>>>> colors.
>>>>>>> Can we
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0the back in Union Jack colors? That said, sign me
>>>> in
>>>>>>> for 1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Tony Przygienda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0<tonysiet= f@gmail.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Waiting for more ideas & chime ups ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I tend to go with the company I suggested and
>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> modify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design to people's liking ... Will be group
>>>> order,
>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on number (I think min is 30) it's about 12$
>>>> each
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will post in a bit ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Toerless
>>>> Eckert
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is a german brewery called
>>>> "bitburger"
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a range of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0promotional articles including t-shirts >>>> and
>>>>>>>>> backpacks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with their slogan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on it: "Bitte ein Bit" - "= one bit please":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://shop.bitburger.de/
>>>>>>>>> Basic-Line/Herren-T-Shirt-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenner-M-oxid.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So the quick option is to get one of thos= e
>>>>>>> t-shirts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cross out the "ein" (one)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and write "256" over it. It wil= l become
>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0though, when you go into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a pub with that t-shirt and ask "who=
>>>> wants to
>>>>>>> be my
>>>>>>>>>>> BFER
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Oh well,... i digress.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 for t-shirt. Any design is fine for me= .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Custom beer coasters could be interesting=
>>>> too
>>>>>>> given
>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0good design idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0toerles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 09:09:49AM -0800,=
>>>> Tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Przygienda wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess it= 's T-shirts time ;-)=C2=A0 I
>>>> really
>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be=C2=A0 B336 or B33B
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that w= ill do ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one told me= there was a specific
>>>> value
>>>>>>>>> request
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0;-)=C2=A0 T-shirts are always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun; but since= BIER is an overlay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for carrying t= raffic, maybe a
>>>> backpack
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more appropriate?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't dare = and given how hard they
>>>> are
>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0great we got one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without much frict= ion ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group order open, = if I get 30 together,
>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>>> order
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and bring along to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like thi= s? comments ? If
>>>>>>> interest, I
>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group order ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Didn't= we request one for downstream
>>>>>>>>> assigned and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one upstream assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or did I g= et mixed up ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No - we just r= equested one for the
>>>>>>> Ethernet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation version.=C2=A0 There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no upstream= and downstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned for t= he BIFT-id values.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant equivalent= of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0x8847 and 0x8848<= br> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but so far we have= only downstream
>>>>>>> signalling
>>>>>>>>> and no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposals of upstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one so we probably= shouldn't push our
>>>> luck
>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________= ____________
>>>>>>> _________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list<= br> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/
>>>> listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________________
>>>> _________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER= @ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0BIER@ietf.org = <mailto:BIER@ietf.org= >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= br> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________ BIER
>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa Andersson=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 email: loa@pi.nu
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior MPLS Expert
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huawei Technologies (c= onsultant)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phone: +46 739 81 21
>>>> 64
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _____________________________________= __________
>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---
>>>> tte@cs.= fau.de
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>
>

=09 =09 =09
=09




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bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FD3120227 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yVGqMWMDd67N for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B54301200E5 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2715558C50B; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 02:47:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 0FFBCB0DC76; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 02:47:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 02:47:34 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Message-ID: <20180308014734.GB926@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307023238.GB12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307220830.GA926@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 01:47:43 -0000 Sure & thanks Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your resistance to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in email. Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but maybe if we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an explicit ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of <-> bift mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup document and not the existing yang drafgt ? Cheers Toerless On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're calling a > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely now > > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS > encaps (I'm neutral) > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps (I'm > against) > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) > > fair 'nuff? > > -- tony > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is like > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on ... > > > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this > > discussion. > > > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting the > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. > > > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to established > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already exists > > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it means the > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN > > controller). > > > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to be > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > > > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially inconsistent > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation issue. But > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration required: > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. Its > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if it was > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational > > suggestion. > > > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 bit > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the full > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > > > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the current > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - unless we > > make > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > > > > > > > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static provisioning > > being > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, otherwise the > > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one would bother > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) > > > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a network > > wide > > consistent semantic ? > > > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working > > interoperable > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on standardized > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. > > > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is always an > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past most, > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee above > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred standard > > semantic" > > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > > > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisioned and > > give > > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And build some > > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but please, not as > > > part of standard track OAM > > > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what version of > > the packet it is... > > > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the drafts life > > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted interpretation of > > flexibility - or not. > > > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover thre > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And > > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID > > > > hop-by-hop..). > > > > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space and > > signal > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for people > > right > > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > > > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the benefits first > > ;-) > > > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap option/benefits.. > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > > > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not try to > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP encap > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit missing > > > > for that option. > > > > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one voice but > > Greg > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make "BIFT-id > > MUST > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop at > > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" > > > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there.. To me it just means to > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution and > > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and would > > still > > allow for other options). > > > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter if we try > > to > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my experience, > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We may end > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then what will > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path", > > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard after stuff > > is > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structure to > > > them. > > > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just need to > > know SI,SD. > > (already have HSL). > > > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing something > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > > > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to std, > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG reconsider > > > > its target. > > > > > > > > > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to change the > > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & Greg has to > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. > > > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right now > > because i > > love the work, but i think without being standards track its just > > introducing > > more confusion than benefit. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Mar 7 17:55:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1084126B6E for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:55:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H9hS1SjvZq4q for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38BDC120227 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id h21so8337962wmd.1 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 17:55:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=e43TM9QVLaD07ucXekrWMAS17oU5yOdO2WawYGtjNh8=; b=urox+avaLH01/n1N7oVutP1pXLKMQVc8aCL2agjsAQxulz7eJm4+hfPexRjgzppzUe ep3kRWmi6E2izR2PaZAz6kRKLhP1BfQd8Y8N4iJPw5FXMdfuDwsa37/ZzO4qVK9hTd5g lf5sKvGKw+K35ppNLBkGLGaEV1IOzOWZ38q6eMGjm7RJQg3vkWA1n5dtKU5odYST24c/ ALmatBnsWLsP9OlZ1tma2hlFpKjP0KBNOQCfUVzrKf4jJ0SLqQNa9K7Gh7BMF+JjktxX X2GPUkXHr0/VR7m8SXs5pkdbCaep+galxXVAo/n6XK15GmtxeuTmUOAtWj5XZj73Bdk6 Xj7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=e43TM9QVLaD07ucXekrWMAS17oU5yOdO2WawYGtjNh8=; b=IYlpZcs9ni864oC5EuZoO6G+Xy2Gb84RWzq5ZGlkBhtanNs5dBL/XHrobaFG7XtD+v 3YbezNVxCjYt8LgsWX5vvsRWg2tYGTXN5H/valwyKD7aIFbdfwY6BFPATH0/BIEHLbO5 PVRUFliRKBcWGUhy2jalSl/GiZoVxIg67rCK23ZW0C61iSG3bUn+EDPMbIxS1BYGKP0d 0pEkCfH7iSS49S9j1U2h1BwjR4x21vusAZp2/FqOu7foPttofn10cgIenZDm6Y4jXZPa pJHhkKFwtXcxXLS4+4lPvVtoRcYckNsh9B3siVgnMNorfqF04qniMoAMWHxwI4gWdIH9 QL/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPDzhaIrAgiFFCAXSczV1aBmjqMjpGdTQUpU3JTH1cSNa66RO1+5 275R6ONpiruigNo4LIFMrL34z97Q7+fCv34OUCI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuhYE2nU6GIygOUMhLHKySmOwLoCFpcrUUsHJVgPgzLt3CYXnVFMlhSvXuhZO+h+0r5+XZM2j3d/vcoGE/GhA4= X-Received: by 10.80.182.141 with SMTP id d13mr29546127ede.250.1520474106728; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 17:55:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:54:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20180308014734.GB926@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20180306214558.GA7853@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307000821.GA12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307023238.GB12400@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180307220830.GA926@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180308014734.GB926@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:54:26 -0800 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c1c7c0595230566dcf733" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 01:55:13 -0000 --f403045c1c7c0595230566dcf733 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in the yang models is all we need and would be good to have in first release while all the encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about the yang draft since I looked @ it last time :^) -- tony On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Sure & thanks > > Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your resistance > to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in email. > > Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but maybe if > we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an explicit > ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of <-> bift > mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup document and > not the existing yang drafgt ? > > Cheers > Toerless > > > On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're calling > a > > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely now > > > > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) > > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS > > encaps (I'm neutral) > > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps > (I'm > > against) > > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) > > > > fair 'nuff? > > > > -- tony > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is like > > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on ... > > > > > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined > > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this > > > discussion. > > > > > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting the > > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. > > > > > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to > established > > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the > > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. > > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already exists > > > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it means the > > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN > > > controller). > > > > > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to be > > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > > > > > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially > inconsistent > > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation issue. > But > > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration > required: > > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. Its > > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if it was > > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational > > > suggestion. > > > > > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if > > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 bit > > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the full > > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > > > > > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the current > > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - unless > we > > > make > > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static provisioning > > > being > > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, otherwise > the > > > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one would > bother > > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) > > > > > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or > > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a > network > > > wide > > > consistent semantic ? > > > > > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working > > > interoperable > > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on > standardized > > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. > > > > > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is > always an > > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past most, > > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee > above > > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred standard > > > semantic" > > > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > > > > > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisioned > and > > > give > > > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And build > some > > > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but please, > not as > > > > part of standard track OAM > > > > > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what version of > > > the packet it is... > > > > > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the drafts > life > > > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted interpretation of > > > flexibility - or not. > > > > > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover > thre > > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And > > > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID > > > > > hop-by-hop..). > > > > > > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space and > > > signal > > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for people > > > right > > > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > > > > > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the benefits > first > > > ;-) > > > > > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap > option/benefits.. > > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > > > > > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not > try to > > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP encap > > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit > missing > > > > > for that option. > > > > > > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one voice > but > > > Greg > > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make "BIFT-id > > > MUST > > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop at > > > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" > > > > > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there.. To me it just means to > > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution and > > > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and would > > > still > > > allow for other options). > > > > > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter if we > try > > > to > > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my experience, > > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We > may end > > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then what > will > > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path", > > > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard after > stuff > > > is > > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structure > to > > > > them. > > > > > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just need > to > > > know SI,SD. > > > (already have HSL). > > > > > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing something > > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > > > > > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to > std, > > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG > reconsider > > > > > its target. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to > change the > > > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & Greg > has to > > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. > > > > > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right now > > > because i > > > love the work, but i think without being standards track its just > > > introducing > > > more confusion than benefit. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > --f403045c1c7c0595230566dcf733 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in= the yang models is all we need and would be good to have in first release = while all the encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about t= he yang draft since I looked @ it last time :^)

-- tony

On Wed, Mar 7= , 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
Sure & thanks

Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your resistance
to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in emai= l.

Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but maybe if
we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an = explicit
ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of <bsl,si,sd> <= -> bift
mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup document=C2=A0 and=
not the existing yang drafgt ?

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless


On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're c= alling a
> standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely now >
> a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids=C2=A0 (I'm for)
> b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPL= S
> encaps (I'm neutral)
> c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps= (I'm
> against)
> d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral)
>
> fair 'nuff?
>
> -- tony
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:<= br> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... Thi= s is like
> > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers o= n ...
> >
> > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard define= d
> > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this<= br> > > discussion.
> >
> > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting= =C2=A0 the
> > semantic of the BIFT-ID field.
> >
> > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to esta= blished
> > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the<= br> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already = exists
> > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it mean= s the
> > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN > > controller).
> >
> > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit.= 2 bits to be
> > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea.
> >
> > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially inco= nsistent
> > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretatio= n issue. But
> > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration= required:
> > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme.= Its
> > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if = it was
> > standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational=
> > suggestion.
> >
> > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks:
> > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if<= br> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 b= it
> > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still = have the full
> > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms.
> >
> > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to = the current
> > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-= standards" - unless we
> > make
> > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard.
> > > >
> > >
> > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static= provisioning
> > being
> > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, o= therwise the
> > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'= ;one would bother
> > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-)<= br> > >
> > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or=
> > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a= network
> > wide
> > consistent semantic ?
> >
> > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working<= br> > > interoperable
> > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on sta= ndardized
> > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements.
> >
> > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is = always an
> > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past m= ost,
> > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. See= e above
> > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred s= tandard
> > semantic"
> > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy.
> >
> > > IMO best you=C2=A0 can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be = provisioned and
> > give
> > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. An= d build some
> > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration&q= uot; but please, not as
> > > part of standard track OAM
> >
> > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what versio= n of
> > the packet it is...
> >
> > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the dr= afts life
> > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted interpretati= on of
> > flexibility - or not.
> >
> > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically= discover thre
> > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forw= arding. And
> > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap t= he BIFT-ID
> > > > hop-by-hop..).
> > >
> > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS"= ; label space and
> > signal
> > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft f= or people
> > right
> > > there ;-)=C2=A0 0x8847 has a point ;-)
> >
> > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the b= enefits first
> > ;-)
> >
> > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap option= /benefits..
> > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discu= ssed).
> >
> > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why w= e do not try to
> > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure= native-IP encap
> > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the = only bit missing
> > > > for that option.
> > >
> > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I&#= 39;m one voice but
> > Greg
> > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to = make "BIFT-id
> > MUST
> > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" bu= t I'll stop at
> > > "here's one information, recommended encoding"=
> >
> > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there.. To me it= just means to
> > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution a= nd
> > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and = would
> > still
> > allow for other options).
> >
> > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with t= he charter if we try
> > to
> > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because fr= om my experience,
> > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tear= s. We may end
> > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and t= hen what will
> > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to = fast-path",
> > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "brok= en" standard after stuff
> > is
> > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no st= ructure to
> > > them.
> >
> > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just = need to
> > know SI,SD.
> > (already have HSL).
> >
> > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing somet= hing
> > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought.
> >
> > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded fro= m exp to std,
> > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to ha= ve WG reconsider
> > > > its target.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > <chair> Consensus was called for informational, if you= want to change the
> > > scope to "standard" that's a very different ke= ttle of fish & Greg has to
> > > call a new adoption call IMSO. </chair>
> >
> > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right n= ow
> > because i
> > love the work, but i think without being standards track its just=
> > introducing
> > more confusion than benefit.
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> > >
> > > --- tony
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > BIER mailing list
> > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/bier
> >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte@cs.fau.de
> >

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

--f403045c1c7c0595230566dcf733-- From nobody Thu Mar 8 05:54:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3CA9126B7E; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 05:54:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: , "Greg Shepherd" , , "The IESG" , , , "Tony Przygienda" , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.74.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152051725564.13986.14649103151111152978.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 05:54:15 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Telechat update notice: X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:54:16 -0000 Telechat date has been changed to 2018-04-05 from 2018-03-08 Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/status-change-bier-core-to-proposed-standard/ From nobody Thu Mar 8 05:54:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14DC1270A7; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 05:54:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: DraftTracker Mail System To: , "Greg Shepherd" , , "The IESG" , , , "Tony Przygienda" , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.74.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152051725685.13986.3579748523583776293.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 05:54:16 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] IESG Deferred Ballot notification: X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:54:17 -0000 Ballot of has been deferred by Eric Rescorla. This ballot will be on the IESG agenda of 2018-04-05. From nobody Thu Mar 8 07:00:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93242127AD4; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 07:00:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Rescorla To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-mvpn@ietf.org, Nabeel Cocker , bier-chairs@ietf.org, nabeel.cocker@nokia.com, bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.74.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152052122754.13998.1615795902485334388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 07:00:27 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-10: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 15:00:28 -0000 Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-10: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mvpn/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT: This document really needs to minimally acknowledge in the security considerations that it is using "VPN" in 4364 sense and not in the sense that it provides actual privacy against network attackers in the Internet Threat Model. It may be hidden somewhere in the references, but I think this document ought to state it explicitly. I'm balloting No-Objection rather than DISCUSS because I think this is easily addressed and trust the ADs to handle it. From nobody Thu Mar 8 13:11:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0774012895E for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 13:11:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.74.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152054348902.13889.9686715246206686260.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:11:29 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Milestones changed for bier WG X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 21:11:29 -0000 Changed milestone "Published as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-mvpn", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Published as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Published as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-ping", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-use-cases", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "WG call for adoption: draft-hfa-bier-pim-signaling", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "IETF 101 discuss BIER-TE documents adoption", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "IETF 101 discuss and target mechanisms for BIER transition", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Publish as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Publish as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Publish as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Publish as proposed standard:draft-ietf-bier-ping", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Publish as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-use-cases", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-evpn", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Target feasibility and solution selection for IPv6 encap", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Progress YANG BIER drafts to WGLC", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "Publish document(s) solidifying BAR/IPA complexity", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. Changed milestone "WGLC BIER-TE drafts", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone. URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/bier/about/ From nobody Thu Mar 8 16:45:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A779F126DCA for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:45:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XRfybNzDriZn for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 063AF120727 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mse02.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.21]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id EEED0772BA31BF9A99A3; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:45:30 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp05.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.204]) by mse02.zte.com.cn with SMTP id w290jFCB038503; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:45:15 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp01[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid203; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:45:16 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:45:16 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2af95aa1d91c4c0-3b764 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <201803090845165214172@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: CABFReBrfrJU9u=ugG6Fs2dmZ+5vSs5pxySajfv9B7yvPuDW+hQ@mail.gmail.com, CA+wi2hO-zkwxVGbYKXWicqhfd4mBDP_WjmWzzg-iuqvReFu7ag@mail.gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse02.zte.com.cn w290jFCB038503 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_adoption=3Adraft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-m?= =?utf-8?q?pls-bift-encoding-01?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 00:45:39 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVG9ueSwgaGkgVG9lcmxlc3MsDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNClNvcnJ5IGZvciB0aGUgbGF0ZSBy ZXNwb25zZS4gSSByZWFkIHRoZSBsYXRlc3QgZW1haWxzIGJ1dCBJIGhhdmUgbm90IGZpbmlzaGVk IHRoZSB3aG9sZSB0aHJlYWQgKEl0IGlzIHNvIGxvbmcuIDpQKSANCg0KDQpEbyB5b3UgZGlzY3Vz cyB0aGUgZmxleGliaXR5IG9mIEJJRlQtaWQ/DQoNCg0KSWYgaXQgaXMsIHdlIHdvdWxkIGxpa2Ug 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bh=5BxRqRfdfSZBhf6xcKJ4zlIOlgUyapkKiMkI7vx7wUA=; b=i83LHLMoicfEYILOsAYWgjimQAjhmdFzKb0h2pwH83SvQZ9Qw0YQ8KkqhUc5PIZBUn 2iGdRR+p9zNJZGVovKEcdUxdkFJfBjB2abpOu7oYUcdbFDsR9FSMyZPAv4zwflJB8ctg bt6f3ZgNKxRELvJaB3KYMVOnKfTXD7zhDaz/uUsgl/E1/YRfMpLwRoFG9zfmuSDa1UZL aiyjTgKnO7seuF8Jpr+ikrSN3YFxxsVBBc8ltUkix6+Tr7Um7b5lDGQS3RfFIrSXnCU1 Wdw+wYDCdZbRNqi3U6LdTk0SJRDUuBJMStfKSGp+YiAw0BLwKruugtCH3TDOBFmIyFVh 7PwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5BxRqRfdfSZBhf6xcKJ4zlIOlgUyapkKiMkI7vx7wUA=; b=g36XYYBiVy1mzVBTt7ZfBz1BLaHf4y44bPUuxcw2cQCMrABih7X14P7AJtgzOofIV9 KhmeoGC6LeOlG8u7/UKi1UNCydsKdTpTTLKrBMxKsBelTmW0MMKIKMQrRPxPcWnQrNxo fhE5UUVtv2FMyDWr1IU7YZGpXZcYrARJZ4ZM8OSnDYt/UnT/H44PPh8jntHPzSs2Y3oU IineVIOIP7lrqywXIRfmO8Tplxl2jT9vZ+rVHVLPy89Kb4aID5WC6j3anYmPVgB8p+OZ YMFHXEsaI1fIWwWNfeUo1JlkVbE41JhIefGGJCf+dRNpphSLtD43/ErzLN3g6kuVyGRO o0Cg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7F0yrce8xpEhKPSf7T+IlNswKGxDsXTM88Cf5msakvK/nGDXIPM MxAEjjdsbI/0hN9d0bdn5iMtPiqZn2l32z3FXa0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsml0ES+ani4WCAZ1UG2MOm3k8KVERZkmPgGwzyfgpST9YOeevNy8m6Mj3P/7oGWqCC3vohnxJYj4fIEezMvHE= X-Received: by 10.80.231.18 with SMTP id a18mr14906684edn.240.1520557712484; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 17:08:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:07:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201803090845165214172@zte.com.cn> References: <201803090845165214172@zte.com.cn> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:07:52 -0800 Message-ID: To: "zhang.zheng" Cc: Toerless Eckert , Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e082f6340502e0b0566f06e6d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 01:08:38 -0000 --089e082f6340502e0b0566f06e6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would be a very good property of BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have BIFT-id in the model right now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face a bit so you can tell me what you think. Toerless may join ;-) Obviously it's quite an addition, we'd need to expose BIFTs in the config part and not now as some BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ... I would even go further and think whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writable entries to make support for controller based/unsignalled solutions trivial (because otherwise, what good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if there is no IGP to compute the BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running then part of the configuration could be something like a "static mapping algorithm ID" anyway ;-) ? --- tony On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:45 PM, wrote: > Hi Tony, hi Toerless, > > > Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails but I have not > finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P) > > Do you discuss the flexibity of BIFT-id? > > If it is, we would like to add a readable and writable leafs in the YANG > model. Is it enough? > > > Thanks, > > Sandy > > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TonyPrzygienda > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Toerless Eckert > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Greg Shepherd BIE= R WG > *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2018=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8808=E6=97=A5 09:55 > *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Re: [Bier] Call for > adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01* > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in the yang models is > all we need and would be good to have in first release while all the > encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about the yang draf= t > since I looked @ it last time :^) > > -- tony > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >> Sure & thanks >> >> Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your resistance >> to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in email= . >> >> Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but maybe if >> we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an >> explicit >> ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of <-> bif= t >> mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup document and >> not the existing yang drafgt ? >> >> Cheers >> Toerless >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: >> > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're >> calling a >> > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely now >> > >> > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) >> > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPL= S >> > encaps (I'm neutral) >> > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps >> (I'm >> > against) >> > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) >> > >> > fair 'nuff? >> > >> > -- tony >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >> > >> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: >> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is >> like >> > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on ... >> > > >> > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined >> > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this >> > > discussion. >> > > >> > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting the >> > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. >> > > >> > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to >> established >> > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the >> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. >> > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already >> exists >> > > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it means t= he >> > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN >> > > controller). >> > > >> > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to be >> > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. >> > > >> > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially >> inconsistent >> > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation issue= . >> But >> > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration >> required: >> > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. It= s >> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if it >> was >> > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational >> > > suggestion. >> > > >> > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: >> > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if >> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 bit >> > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the full >> > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. >> > > >> > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the curre= nt >> > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - unless >> we >> > > make >> > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static >> provisioning >> > > being >> > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, >> otherwise the >> > > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one would >> bother >> > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) >> > > >> > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or >> > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a >> network >> > > wide >> > > consistent semantic ? >> > > >> > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working >> > > interoperable >> > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on >> standardized >> > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. >> > > >> > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is >> always an >> > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past most= , >> > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee >> above >> > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred standard >> > > semantic" >> > > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. >> > > >> > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisioned >> and >> > > give >> > > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And buil= d >> some >> > > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but please, >> not as >> > > > part of standard track OAM >> > > >> > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what version o= f >> > > the packet it is... >> > > >> > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the draft= s >> life >> > > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted interpretation = of >> > > flexibility - or not. >> > > >> > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover >> thre >> > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. A= nd >> > > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-I= D >> > > > > hop-by-hop.). >> > > > >> > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space an= d >> > > signal >> > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for >> people >> > > right >> > > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) >> > > >> > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the benefits >> first >> > > ;-) >> > > >> > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap >> option/benefits. >> > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). >> > > >> > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not >> try to >> > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP >> encap >> > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit >> missing >> > > > > for that option. >> > > > >> > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one voice >> but >> > > Greg >> > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make >> "BIFT-id >> > > MUST >> > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop >> at >> > > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" >> > > >> > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there. To me it just means = to >> >> > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution and >> > > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and wou= ld >> > > still >> > > allow for other options). >> > > >> > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter if >> we try >> > > to >> > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my experience= , >> > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We >> may end >> > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then >> what will >> > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path", >> > > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard after >> stuff >> > > is >> > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structur= e >> to >> > > > them. >> > > >> > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just nee= d >> to >> > > know SI,SD. >> > > (already have HSL). >> > > >> > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing somethin= g >> > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. >> > > >> > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to >> std, >> > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG >> reconsider >> > > > > its target. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to >> change the >> > > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & Greg >> has to >> > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. >> > > >> > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right now >> > > because i >> > > love the work, but i think without being standards track its just >> > > introducing >> > > more confusion than benefit. >> > > >> > > Cheers >> > > Toerless >> > > > >> > > > --- tony >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > BIER mailing list >> > > > BIER@ietf.org >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > --- >> > > tte@cs.fau.de >> > > >> >> -- >> --- >> tte@cs.fau.de >> > > > --089e082f6340502e0b0566f06e6d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would = be a very good property of BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have= BIFT-id in the model right now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face= a bit so you can tell me what you think. Toerless may join ;-)=C2=A0 Obvio= usly it's quite an addition, we'd need to expose BIFTs in the confi= g part and not now as some BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ...=C2=A0 I woul= d even go further and think whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writa= ble entries to make support for controller based/unsignalled solutions triv= ial (because otherwise, what good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if t= here is no IGP to compute the BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running th= en part of the configuration could be something like a "static mapping= algorithm ID" anyway=C2=A0 ;-) ?

--- tony

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 a= t 4:45 PM, <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:

Hi Tony, hi Toerless,


Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails = but I have not finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P)=C2=A0

Do you discuss the flexibity of BI= FT-id?

If it is, we would = like to add a readable and writable leafs in the YANG model. Is it enough?<= /p>


Thanks,

Sandy


=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9ATonyPrzygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com&g= t;
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AT= oerless Eckert <tte@c= s.fau.de>
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC= =9AGreg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2018=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8808= =E6=97=A5 09:55
=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: [Bier] Call= for adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01=
_______________________________________________
B= IER=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


On Wed, Mar 7,= 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
Sure & th= anks

Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your = resistance
to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress = on this in email.

Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the= thread, but maybe if
we don't see an ack from one of them to this = email, i'll resend an explicit
ask to start brainstorming for the y= ang modelling of <bsl,si,sd> <-> bift
mapping ? Or do you t= hink this should go into a followup document=C2=A0 and
not the existing= yang drafgt ?

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless
<= div class=3D"m_6703952922452958671HOEnZb">


On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -= 0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here= and wait now whether we're calling a
> standards track here and= what the scope of the ask is precisely now
>
> a) having wri= table Yang BIFT-ids=C2=A0 (I'm for)
> b) having an informational= mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS
> encaps (I'm neut= ral)
> c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MP= LS encaps (I'm
> against)
> d) draft adoption as it stand= s as informational (I'm neutral)
>
> fair 'nuff?
= >
> -- tony
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 20= 18 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar= 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > > ag= reed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is like
>= ; > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on .= ..
> >
> > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had f= ixed, standard defined
> > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we = would not have any of this
> > discussion.
> >
>= > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting=C2= =A0 the
> > semantic of the BIFT-ID field.
> >
>= > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to establis= hed
> > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define w= hat the
> > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 as= signments.
> > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, S= D (BSL already exists
> > in another part of the header). In anot= her assigned value it means the
> > remaining 16 bits are assigne= d by undefined procedures (eg: SDN
> > controller).
> >=
> > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1= bit. 2 bits to be
> > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good= idea.
> >
> > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 b= its with botentially inconsistent
> > semantic than you're ge= tting yourself into this interpretation issue. But
> > it still i= s only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration required:
> = > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. Its<= br> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger= if it was
> > standardized and recommended than if it was just a= n informational
> > suggestion.
> >
> > Btw: = We could do even more nasty encoding tricks:
> > We could say tha= t the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if
> > the existing= BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 bit
> > to in= dicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the full > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms.
> >
= > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to= the current
> > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-auto= matic,fully-standards" - unless we
> > make
> &g= t; > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard.
> > > >= ;
> > >
> > > well, you try the impossible here. = You can't have static provisioning
> > being
> > &g= t; as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, otherwise the=
> > > whole world would still route using static routes and n= o'one would bother
> > > with the complexity of distribute= d algorithms, Toerless ;-)
> >
> > Why are you not maki= ng the same argument about the TTL field ? Or
> > DSCP field or a= ny other fields in a header where we standardise a network
> > wi= de
> > consistent semantic ?
> >
> > IMHO its= exactly the other way around: The most reliably working
> > inte= roperable
> > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but= purely on standardized
> > network wide consistly interpreted in= band signaling elements.
> >
> > Yes, the desire to hav= e multiple interpretations of one field is always an
> > interest= ing challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past most,
> >= primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee above > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferre= d standard
> > semantic"
> > is definitely part of= the best working solution strategy.
> >
> > > IMO b= est you=C2=A0 can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisioned and
= > > give
> > > people some informational on how encoding= is recommended. And build some
> > > informational mechanism = to discover "misconfiguration" but please, not as
> > &= gt; part of standard track OAM
> >
> > How avbout those= 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what version of
> > the pac= ket it is...
> >
> > Its really just based on whether y= ou want to make your and the drafts life
> > more miserable by co= ming up with the most convoluted interpretation of
> > flexibilit= y - or not.
> >
> > > > But we do not have a dyna= mic signaling to automatically discover thre
> > > > BIFT-I= D to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And
> > = > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID=
> > > > hop-by-hop.).
>= ; > >
> > > who said. What prevents you from using a &qu= ot;non-MPLS" label space and
> > signal
> > > t= hat in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for people
&g= t; > right
> > > there ;-)=C2=A0 0x8847 has a point ;-)
= > >
> > Don't start with the technical option. Motivat= e me with the benefits first
> > ;-)
> >
> > = Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap option/benefits.=
> > 9other than the generic "SDN-co= ntroller" which we discussed).
> >
> > > > T= rue, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not try to
&= gt; > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure = native-IP encap
> > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap= . This draft is the only bit missing
> > > > for that optio= n.
> > >
> > > so that's what the thread is a= ll about. My take (and I'm one voice but
> > Greg
> &g= t; > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make &q= uot;BIFT-id
> > MUST
> > > be capable of being out-o= f-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop at
> > > &q= uot;here's one information, recommended encoding"
> > > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there. = To me it just means to

> > end up with a s= olution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution and
> > with mak= ing the encoding standard it would become as simple (and would
> >= ; still
> > allow for other options).
> >
> >= > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charte= r if we try
> > to
> > > make the mapping algorithm = a "standard" because from my experience,
> > > expos= ing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We may end
&g= t; > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and the= n what will
> > > you do with this "this is control-plane= 1:1 mapping to fast-path",
> > > especially if it's = standard. We'll have a "broken" standard after stuff
>= > is
> > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labe= ls have no structure to
> > > them.
> >
> >= ; Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just need to<= br> > > know SI,SD.
> > (already have HSL).
> > > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing so= mething
> > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overtho= ught.
> >
> > > > And given how BIER RFCs are tar= geted to be upgraded from exp to std,
> > > > there is hope= even laer in the life of this draft to have WG reconsider
> > &g= t; > its target.
> > > >
> > > >
>= ; > > <chair> Consensus was called for informational, if you wa= nt to change the
> > > scope to "standard" that'= s a very different kettle of fish & Greg has to
> > > call= a new adoption call IMSO. </chair>
> >
> > Of co= urse. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right now
> >= ; because i
> > love the work, but i think without being standard= s track its just
> > introducing
> > more confusion tha= n benefit.
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Toerless
> > >
> > > --- tony
> >=
> > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list
> > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
> &g= t;
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte@cs.fau.de
> >=

--
---
tte@= cs.fau.de

=


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X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC5412D873 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:58:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.959 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.959 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pg2Dp6nwRlRk for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F83D12D86C for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C243758C4B8; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 17:58:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 9A7DFB0DC9F; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 17:58:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 17:58:20 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Cc: "zhang.zheng" , Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Message-ID: <20180309165820.GA15900@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201803090845165214172@zte.com.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 16:58:29 -0000 Well, if you want to experiment with defining a full BIFT in yang, we'd need that IMHO more with BIER-TE than BIER first because that one relies ground up on a controller, and i first need LSR work for the IGP extensions to create an 'reduced controller dependent' option. For BIER, the most difficult question to answer unfortunately first is probably the way how to deal with conflicts between controller and IGP generation of BIFT entries. If its sufficient, then we could make this based on some per-domain or per-sd or per-bift mode-switch. Or its even based on per-bift-entry (bit) preference: Both IGP and controller can write info, but it will have different precedence, and the BIFT will carry highest precedence info (like we do it for routes in RIBs/FIBs). I would suggest to go with per-sd mode switch, that allows co-extance of controller for some sd and igp for others and keeps it simple. But no strong opinion because i have not concrete idea of the most important BIER + controller use case to model the details. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 05:07:52PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would be a very good property of > BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have BIFT-id in the model right > now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face a bit so you can tell me > what you think. Toerless may join ;-) Obviously it's quite an addition, > we'd need to expose BIFTs in the config part and not now as some > BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ... I would even go further and think > whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writable entries to make support > for controller based/unsignalled solutions trivial (because otherwise, what > good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if there is no IGP to compute the > BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running then part of the configuration > could be something like a "static mapping algorithm ID" anyway ;-) ? > > --- tony > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:45 PM, wrote: > > > Hi Tony, hi Toerless, > > > > > > Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails but I have not > > finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P) > > > > Do you discuss the flexibity of BIFT-id? > > > > If it is, we would like to add a readable and writable leafs in the YANG > > model. Is it enough? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sandy > > > > > > ???????????? > > *????????????*TonyPrzygienda > > *????????????*Toerless Eckert > > *????????????*Greg Shepherd BIER WG > > *??? ??? ???*2018???03???08??? 09:55 > > *??? ??? ???**Re: [Bier] Call for > > adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01* > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in the yang models is > > all we need and would be good to have in first release while all the > > encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about the yang draft > > since I looked @ it last time :^) > > > > -- tony > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > >> Sure & thanks > >> > >> Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your resistance > >> to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in email. > >> > >> Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but maybe if > >> we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an > >> explicit > >> ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of <-> bift > >> mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup document and > >> not the existing yang drafgt ? > >> > >> Cheers > >> Toerless > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > >> > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're > >> calling a > >> > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely now > >> > > >> > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) > >> > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS > >> > encaps (I'm neutral) > >> > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS encaps > >> (I'm > >> > against) > >> > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) > >> > > >> > fair 'nuff? > >> > > >> > -- tony > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > >> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is > >> like > >> > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on ... > >> > > > >> > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined > >> > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this > >> > > discussion. > >> > > > >> > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting the > >> > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. > >> > > > >> > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to > >> established > >> > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the > >> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. > >> > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already > >> exists > >> > > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it means the > >> > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN > >> > > controller). > >> > > > >> > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to be > >> > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > >> > > > >> > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially > >> inconsistent > >> > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation issue. > >> But > >> > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration > >> required: > >> > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. Its > >> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if it > >> was > >> > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational > >> > > suggestion. > >> > > > >> > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > >> > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if > >> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 bit > >> > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the full > >> > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > >> > > > >> > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the current > >> > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - unless > >> we > >> > > make > >> > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static > >> provisioning > >> > > being > >> > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, > >> otherwise the > >> > > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one would > >> bother > >> > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) > >> > > > >> > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or > >> > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a > >> network > >> > > wide > >> > > consistent semantic ? > >> > > > >> > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working > >> > > interoperable > >> > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on > >> standardized > >> > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. > >> > > > >> > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is > >> always an > >> > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past most, > >> > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee > >> above > >> > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred standard > >> > > semantic" > >> > > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > >> > > > >> > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be provisioned > >> and > >> > > give > >> > > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And build > >> some > >> > > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but please, > >> not as > >> > > > part of standard track OAM > >> > > > >> > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what version of > >> > > the packet it is... > >> > > > >> > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the drafts > >> life > >> > > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted interpretation of > >> > > flexibility - or not. > >> > > > >> > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically discover > >> thre > >> > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP forwarding. And > >> > > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the BIFT-ID > >> > > > > hop-by-hop.). > >> > > > > >> > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space and > >> > > signal > >> > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for > >> people > >> > > right > >> > > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > >> > > > >> > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the benefits > >> first > >> > > ;-) > >> > > > >> > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap > >> option/benefits. > >> > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > >> > > > >> > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do not > >> try to > >> > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP > >> encap > >> > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only bit > >> missing > >> > > > > for that option. > >> > > > > >> > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one voice > >> but > >> > > Greg > >> > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make > >> "BIFT-id > >> > > MUST > >> > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll stop > >> at > >> > > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" > >> > > > >> > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there. To me it just means to > >> > >> > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution and > >> > > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and would > >> > > still > >> > > allow for other options). > >> > > > >> > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter if > >> we try > >> > > to > >> > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my experience, > >> > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. We > >> may end > >> > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then > >> what will > >> > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to fast-path", > >> > > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard after > >> stuff > >> > > is > >> > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no structure > >> to > >> > > > them. > >> > > > >> > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just need > >> to > >> > > know SI,SD. > >> > > (already have HSL). > >> > > > >> > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing something > >> > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > >> > > > >> > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp to > >> std, > >> > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG > >> reconsider > >> > > > > its target. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to > >> change the > >> > > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & Greg > >> has to > >> > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. > >> > > > >> > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right now > >> > > because i > >> > > love the work, but i think without being standards track its just > >> > > introducing > >> > > more confusion than benefit. > >> > > > >> > > Cheers > >> > > Toerless > >> > > > > >> > > > --- tony > >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > > BIER mailing list > >> > > > BIER@ietf.org > >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > --- > >> > > tte@cs.fau.de > >> > > > >> > >> -- > >> --- > >> tte@cs.fau.de > >> > > > > > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Mar 9 09:37:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2036A1243F3; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:37:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.74.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: The IESG , bier@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <152061705612.11155.13452737510532257389.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 09:37:36 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] WG Action: Rechartered Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 17:37:36 -0000 The Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) WG in the Routing Area of the IETF has been rechartered. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Active WG Chairs: Greg Shepherd Tony Przygienda Assigned Area Director: Alia Atlas Routing Area Directors: Alia Atlas Alvaro Retana Deborah Brungard Mailing list: Address: bier@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/bier/ Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/bier/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bier/ The BIER (Bit Index Explicit Replication) Working Group has defined an architecture [RFC 8279] for multicast forwarding that uses an encapsulation [RFC 8296] that can be used on MPLS or Ethernet transport. The BIER-WG is now chartered to produce Standards Track RFCs, including the status update for RFCs 8279 and 8296. The BIER working group's original charter required the publication of an Informational RFC describing the benefits, problems, and trade-offs for using BIER instead of traditional multicast forwarding mechanisms as well as an analysis of the impact and benefit of the BIER data-plane to the overall Internet architecture. The WG did not produce this RFC, but the goals of that milestone have nevertheless been reached; i.e., the industry has demonstrated interest in deploying BIER and the trade-offs are now well understood. Therefore, BIER is proceeding with work on the Standards Track. The focus of the BIER-WG is on deployment: transition, partial deployments, applicability and management. First and primarily, the BIER-WG will complete its work on: 1) Transition Mechanisms and Partial Deployments: The WG will describe how BIER can be introduced in existing multicast networks to shift multicast delivery, either end-to-end or in part of a network, from mechanisms such as PIM, ng-MVPN, etc. BIER operation in networks where not all routers are BIER capable or have other BIER support constraints should be addressed. How to handle routers supporting BIER with different BitStringLengths and encapsulations should be addressed. Each new mechanism should include an applicability statement that clearly describes its utility and distinctions from already standardized mechanisms. 2) Applicability Statements: The WG will continue to work on documents describing how BIER can be applied, as has been done for MVPN in draft-ietf-bier-mvpn. A document describing applicability to EVPN should be published. 3) Use Case: The WG will produce one use-case document that clearly articulates the potential benefits of BIER for different use-cases. 4) Manageability and OAM: The WG will describe how OAM will work in a BIER domain and what simplifications BIER offers for managing the multicast traffic. A strong preference will be given to extensions to existing protocols. 5) Management models: The WG will work on YANG models to manage BIER. 6) Link-State Routing and BGP extensions: The BIER-WG has already defined the basic information needed to set up the BIER forwarding tables via advertisements in OSPFv2 and ISIS; the extensions to OSPFv3 will be specified. Additional extensions may be needed - for example, to support constraining the topology on which a particular BIER sub-domain operates. Any necessary extensions to the IGP will be specified by the WG as Standards Track, in cooperation with the LSR WG. The BIER-WG shall also specify the extensions to support BIER for BGP when used as an IGP (see RFC 7938) and to provide BIER-specific information in BGP-LS, in cooperation with IDR. The BIER-WG is additionally chartered to start Standards Track work on: 7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood applicability. 8) Forwarding Plane Mechanisms for BIER Traffic Engineering: definition of how the new BIER forwarding plane structures (e.g. BIFT) can be used to support engineered multicast trees. No control-plane work will be done in BIER-WG. The BIER-WG will serve as a forum to discuss how BIER can be applied. The BIER-WG will coordinate and collaborate with other WGs as needed. Specific expected interactions include: * mpls on the associated MPLS-based OAM mechanisms, * lsr on OSPF and ISIS extensions to flood BIER-related information, * babel on Babel extensions to support BIER, * bess and idr on BGP extensions to flood BIER-related information and the applicability of existing BGP-based mechanisms for providing multicast group membership information, * pim and mboned on the applicability of and extensions to PIM, IGMP, and MLD to support BIER operations and transition, * pce on extensions to program BIER forwarding on the BFIRs,and * teas on architecture and control-plane mechanisms to use BIER-TE forwarding mechanisms. Milestones: Mar 2018 - Published as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-mvpn Mar 2018 - Published as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions Mar 2018 - Published as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions Mar 2018 - Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements Mar 2018 - Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery Mar 2018 - Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam Mar 2018 - Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-ping Mar 2018 - Shepherd/IESG queue: draft-ietf-bier-use-cases Mar 2018 - WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-idr-extensions Mar 2018 - WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext Mar 2018 - WG call for adoption: draft-hfa-bier-pim-signaling Mar 2018 - IETF 101 discuss BIER-TE documents adoption Mar 2018 - IETF 101 discuss and target mechanisms for BIER transition Jul 2018 - Publish as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements Jul 2018 - Publish as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery Jul 2018 - Publish as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam Jul 2018 - Publish as proposed standard:draft-ietf-bier-ping Jul 2018 - Publish as proposed standard: draft-ietf-bier-use-cases Jul 2018 - WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-evpn Nov 2018 - Target feasibility and solution selection for IPv6 encap Nov 2018 - Progress YANG BIER drafts to WGLC Nov 2018 - Publish document(s) solidifying BAR/IPA complexity Mar 2019 - WGLC BIER-TE drafts From nobody Fri Mar 9 09:49:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37BE127275 for ; 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Fri, 09 Mar 2018 09:49:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:48:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20180309165820.GA15900@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201803090845165214172@zte.com.cn> <20180309165820.GA15900@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:48:54 -0800 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "zhang.zheng" , Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1cd34055a6c90566fe6a0c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 17:49:42 -0000 --94eb2c1cd34055a6c90566fe6a0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Toerless, thanks, good observation. My preference would be with a "like route-preference" based approach to avoid configuring things per SD, per node but it would be interesting to hear other opinions. And the static (just like static route) always beats dynamic normally, worked extremely well in IP routing case ... Yes, I forgot that in BIER-TE case that may be extremely useful as well ... --- tony On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 8:58 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Well, if you want to experiment with defining a full BIFT in yang, > we'd need that IMHO more with BIER-TE than BIER first because that one > relies ground up on a controller, and i first need LSR work for > the IGP extensions to create an 'reduced controller dependent' option. > > For BIER, the most difficult question to answer unfortunately first > is probably the way how to deal with conflicts between controller > and IGP generation of BIFT entries. > > If its sufficient, then we could make this based on some per-domain > or per-sd or per-bift mode-switch. > > Or its even based on per-bift-entry (bit) preference: Both IGP > and controller can write info, but it will have different precedence, > and the BIFT will carry highest precedence info (like we do it > for routes in RIBs/FIBs). > > I would suggest to go with per-sd mode switch, that allows > co-extance of controller for some sd and igp for others and keeps > it simple. But no strong opinion because i have not concrete > idea of the most important BIER + controller use case to model > the details. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 05:07:52PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would be a very good property > of > > BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have BIFT-id in the model right > > now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face a bit so you can tell me > > what you think. Toerless may join ;-) Obviously it's quite an addition, > > we'd need to expose BIFTs in the config part and not now as some > > BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ... I would even go further and think > > whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writable entries to make > support > > for controller based/unsignalled solutions trivial (because otherwise, > what > > good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if there is no IGP to compute > the > > BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running then part of the configuration > > could be something like a "static mapping algorithm ID" anyway ;-) ? > > > > --- tony > > > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:45 PM, wrote: > > > > > Hi Tony, hi Toerless, > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails but I have not > > > finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P) > > > > > > Do you discuss the flexibity of BIFT-id? > > > > > > If it is, we would like to add a readable and writable leafs in the > YANG > > > model. Is it enough? > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > ???????????? > > > *????????????*TonyPrzygienda > > > *????????????*Toerless Eckert > > > *????????????*Greg Shepherd BIER WG > > > *??? ??? ???*2018???03???08??? 09:55 > > > *??? ??? ???**Re: [Bier] Call for > > > adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01* > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in the yang models > is > > > all we need and would be good to have in first release while all the > > > encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about the yang > draft > > > since I looked @ it last time :^) > > > > > > -- tony > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > >> Sure & thanks > > >> > > >> Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your > resistance > > >> to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in > email. > > >> > > >> Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but maybe if > > >> we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an > > >> explicit > > >> ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of <-> > bift > > >> mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup document and > > >> not the existing yang drafgt ? > > >> > > >> Cheers > > >> Toerless > > >> > > >> > > >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > >> > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're > > >> calling a > > >> > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely now > > >> > > > >> > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) > > >> > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on > non-MPLS > > >> > encaps (I'm neutral) > > >> > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS > encaps > > >> (I'm > > >> > against) > > >> > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) > > >> > > > >> > fair 'nuff? > > >> > > > >> > -- tony > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > >> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is > > >> like > > >> > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on > ... > > >> > > > > >> > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined > > >> > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this > > >> > > discussion. > > >> > > > > >> > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting the > > >> > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. > > >> > > > > >> > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to > > >> established > > >> > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the > > >> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. > > >> > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already > > >> exists > > >> > > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it > means the > > >> > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN > > >> > > controller). > > >> > > > > >> > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to > be > > >> > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > > >> > > > > >> > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially > > >> inconsistent > > >> > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation > issue. > > >> But > > >> > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration > > >> required: > > >> > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. > Its > > >> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if > it > > >> was > > >> > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational > > >> > > suggestion. > > >> > > > > >> > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > > >> > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if > > >> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 > bit > > >> > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the > full > > >> > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the > current > > >> > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - > unless > > >> we > > >> > > make > > >> > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static > > >> provisioning > > >> > > being > > >> > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, > > >> otherwise the > > >> > > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one > would > > >> bother > > >> > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) > > >> > > > > >> > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or > > >> > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a > > >> network > > >> > > wide > > >> > > consistent semantic ? > > >> > > > > >> > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working > > >> > > interoperable > > >> > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on > > >> standardized > > >> > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. > > >> > > > > >> > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is > > >> always an > > >> > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past > most, > > >> > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee > > >> above > > >> > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred > standard > > >> > > semantic" > > >> > > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > > >> > > > > >> > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be > provisioned > > >> and > > >> > > give > > >> > > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And > build > > >> some > > >> > > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but > please, > > >> not as > > >> > > > part of standard track OAM > > >> > > > > >> > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what > version of > > >> > > the packet it is... > > >> > > > > >> > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the > drafts > > >> life > > >> > > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted > interpretation of > > >> > > flexibility - or not. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically > discover > > >> thre > > >> > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP > forwarding. And > > >> > > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the > BIFT-ID > > >> > > > > hop-by-hop.). > > >> > > > > > >> > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space > and > > >> > > signal > > >> > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for > > >> people > > >> > > right > > >> > > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > > >> > > > > >> > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the > benefits > > >> first > > >> > > ;-) > > >> > > > > >> > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap > > >> option/benefits. > > >> > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > > >> > > > > >> > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do > not > > >> try to > > >> > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP > > >> encap > > >> > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only > bit > > >> missing > > >> > > > > for that option. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one > voice > > >> but > > >> > > Greg > > >> > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make > > >> "BIFT-id > > >> > > MUST > > >> > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll > stop > > >> at > > >> > > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" > > >> > > > > >> > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there. To me it just > means to > > >> > > >> > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution > and > > >> > > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and > would > > >> > > still > > >> > > allow for other options). > > >> > > > > >> > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter > if > > >> we try > > >> > > to > > >> > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my > experience, > > >> > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. > We > > >> may end > > >> > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then > > >> what will > > >> > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to > fast-path", > > >> > > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard > after > > >> stuff > > >> > > is > > >> > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no > structure > > >> to > > >> > > > them. > > >> > > > > >> > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just > need > > >> to > > >> > > know SI,SD. > > >> > > (already have HSL). > > >> > > > > >> > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing > something > > >> > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp > to > > >> std, > > >> > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG > > >> reconsider > > >> > > > > its target. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to > > >> change the > > >> > > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & > Greg > > >> has to > > >> > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. > > >> > > > > >> > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right > now > > >> > > because i > > >> > > love the work, but i think without being standards track its just > > >> > > introducing > > >> > > more confusion than benefit. > > >> > > > > >> > > Cheers > > >> > > Toerless > > >> > > > > > >> > > > --- tony > > >> > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > > BIER mailing list > > >> > > > BIER@ietf.org > > >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > -- > > >> > > --- > > >> > > tte@cs.fau.de > > >> > > > > >> > > >> -- > > >> --- > > >> tte@cs.fau.de > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > --94eb2c1cd34055a6c90566fe6a0c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Toerless, thanks, good observation.
My preference would be with a "like route-preference" base= d approach to avoid configuring things per SD, per node but it would be int= eresting to hear other opinions.=C2=A0 And the static (just like static rou= te) always beats dynamic normally, worked extremely well in IP routing case= ...

Yes, I forgot that in BIER-TE case that may be extremely= useful as well ...

--- tony

On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 8:58 AM, Toerles= s Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:


On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 05:07:52PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would be a very good pr= operty of
> BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have BIFT-id in the model = right
> now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face a bit so you can tell = me
> what you think. Toerless may join ;-)=C2=A0 Obviously it's quite a= n addition,
> we'd need to expose BIFTs in the config part and not now as some > BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ...=C2=A0 I would even go further= and think
> whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writable entries to make sup= port
> for controller based/unsignalled solutions trivial (because otherwise,= what
> good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if there is no IGP to comput= e the
> BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running then part of the configurat= ion
> could be something like a "static mapping algorithm ID" anyw= ay=C2=A0 ;-) ?
>
> --- tony
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:45 PM, <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
>
> > Hi Tony, hi Toerless,
> >
> >
> > Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails but I have = not
> > finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P)
> >
> > Do you discuss the flexibity of BIFT-id?
> >
> > If it is, we would like to add a readable and writable leafs in t= he YANG
> > model. Is it enough?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> > ????????????
> > *????????????*TonyPrzygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> > *????????????*Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
> > *????????????*Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>BIER WG <bie= r@ietf.org>
> > *??? ??? ???*2018???03???08??? 09:55
> > *??? ??? ???**Re: [Bier] Call for
> > adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-0= 1*
> > _________________________= ______________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= /a>
> >
> > IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in the yang mo= dels is
> > all we need and would be good to have in first release while all = the
> > encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about the y= ang draft
> > since I looked @ it last time :^)
> >
> > -- tony
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> >
> >> Sure & thanks
> >>
> >> Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your = resistance
> >> to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress o= n this in email.
> >>
> >> Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but = maybe if
> >> we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'= ;ll resend an
> >> explicit
> >> ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of <bsl,= si,sd> <-> bift
> >> mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup docu= ment=C2=A0 and
> >> not the existing yang drafgt ?
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wro= te:
> >> > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now wheth= er we're
> >> calling a
> >> > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is pr= ecisely now
> >> >
> >> > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids=C2=A0 (I'm for)
> >> > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT= -id on non-MPLS
> >> > encaps (I'm neutral)
> >> > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on n= on-MPLS encaps
> >> (I'm
> >> > against)
> >> > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm= neutral)
> >> >
> >> > fair 'nuff?
> >> >
> >> > -- tony
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przy= gienda wrote:
> >> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardiz= ed IMO ... This is
> >> like
> >> > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their= DNS servers on ...
> >> > >
> >> > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, s= tandard defined
> >> > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not hav= e any of this
> >> > > discussion.
> >> > >
> >> > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we'r= e interpreting=C2=A0 the
> >> > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field.
> >> > >
> >> > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussio= n back to
> >> established
> >> > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits de= fine what the
> >> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 = assignments.
> >> > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD= (BSL already
> >> exists
> >> > > in another part of the header). In another assigned= value it means the
> >> > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedu= res (eg: SDN
> >> > > controller).
> >> > >
> >> > > We could strip down the "selection" to ev= en just 1 bit. 2 bits to be
> >> > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > >> > >
> >> > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with bo= tentially
> >> inconsistent
> >> > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this= interpretation issue.
> >> But
> >> > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent= configuration
> >> required:
> >> > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assi= gnment scheme. Its
> >> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lo= t stronger if it
> >> was
> >> > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an= informational
> >> > > suggestion.
> >> > >
> >> > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > >> > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si= -sd format if
> >> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have= the full 20 bit
> >> > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd = and can still have the full
> >> > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms.
> >> > >
> >> > > > > sure, but this option does not create an = equivalent to the current
> >> > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automat= ic,fully-standards" - unless
> >> we
> >> > > make
> >> > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can'= ;t have static
> >> provisioning
> >> > > being
> >> > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalli= ng protocol,
> >> otherwise the
> >> > > > whole world would still route using static rou= tes and no'one would
> >> bother
> >> > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms,= Toerless ;-)
> >> > >
> >> > > Why are you not making the same argument about the = TTL field ? Or
> >> > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we= standardise a
> >> network
> >> > > wide
> >> > > consistent semantic ?
> >> > >
> >> > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most rel= iably working
> >> > > interoperable
> >> > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but= purely on
> >> standardized
> >> > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling= elements.
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of= one field is
> >> always an
> >> > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this= in the past most,
> >> > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forward= ing plane. Seee
> >> above
> >> > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. &qu= ot;Preferred standard
> >> > > semantic"
> >> > > is definitely part of the best working solution str= ategy.
> >> > >
> >> > > > IMO best you=C2=A0 can do is ensure that any B= IFT-id can be provisioned
> >> and
> >> > > give
> >> > > > people some informational on how encoding is r= ecommended. And build
> >> some
> >> > > > informational mechanism to discover "misc= onfiguration" but please,
> >> not as
> >> > > > part of standard track OAM
> >> > >
> >> > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicati= ng what version of
> >> > > the packet it is...
> >> > >
> >> > > Its really just based on whether you want to make y= our and the drafts
> >> life
> >> > > more miserable by coming up with the most convolute= d interpretation of
> >> > > flexibility - or not.
> >> > >
> >> > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to= automatically discover
> >> thre
> >> > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with = native-IP forwarding. And
> >> > > > > we can not even use the same approach in = native (swap the BIFT-ID
> >> > > > > hop-by-hop.).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "= ;non-MPLS" label space and
> >> > > signal
> >> > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I s= mell a draft for
> >> people
> >> > > right
> >> > > > there ;-)=C2=A0 0x8847 has a point ;-)
> >> > >
> >> > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate= me with the benefits
> >> first
> >> > > ;-)
> >> > >
> >> > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to othe= r encap
> >> option/benefits.
> >> > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" = which we discussed).
> >> > >
> >> > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusi= ng to me why we do not
> >> try to
> >> > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simpl= e-to-configure native-IP
> >> encap
> >> > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This= draft is the only bit
> >> missing
> >> > > > > for that option.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My= take (and I'm one voice
> >> but
> >> > > Greg
> >> > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm= all dandy to make
> >> "BIFT-id
> >> > > MUST
> >> > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on= Yang" but I'll stop
> >> at
> >> > > > "here's one information, recommended = encoding"
> >> > >
> >> > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping th= ere. To me it just means to
> >>
> >> > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the M= PLS solution and
> >> > > with making the encoding standard it would become a= s simple (and would
> >> > > still
> >> > > allow for other options).
> >> > >
> >> > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most= likely with the charter if
> >> we try
> >> > > to
> >> > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard&qu= ot; because from my experience,
> >> > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path e= nds up in tears. We
> >> may end
> >> > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an = example) and then
> >> what will
> >> > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1= :1 mapping to fast-path",
> >> > > > especially if it's standard. We'll hav= e a "broken" standard after
> >> stuff
> >> > > is
> >> > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS lab= els have no structure
> >> to
> >> > > > them.
> >> > >
> >> > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwar= ding. We just need
> >> to
> >> > > know SI,SD.
> >> > > (already have HSL).
> >> > >
> >> > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am= missing something
> >> > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overt= hought.
> >> > >
> >> > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to b= e upgraded from exp to
> >> std,
> >> > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of th= is draft to have WG
> >> reconsider
> >> > > > > its target.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > <chair> Consensus was called for informa= tional, if you want to
> >> change the
> >> > > > scope to "standard" that's a ver= y different kettle of fish & Greg
> >> has to
> >> > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. </chair><= br> > >> > >
> >> > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from = a vote right now
> >> > > because i
> >> > > love the work, but i think without being standards = track its just
> >> > > introducing
> >> > > more confusion than benefit.
> >> > >
> >> > > Cheers
> >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --- tony
> >> > >
> >> > > > _________________________________________= ______
> >> > > > BIER mailing list
> >> > > > BIER@ietf.org=
> >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/bier
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > ---
> >> > > tte@cs.fau.de<= br> > >> > >
> >>
> >> --
> >> ---
> >> tte@cs.fau.de
> >>
> >
> >
> >

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

--94eb2c1cd34055a6c90566fe6a0c-- From nobody Fri Mar 9 13:48:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CAB1270A0; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:48:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oS8EIyDpgGwR; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x234.google.com (mail-oi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6029A1242F7; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x234.google.com with SMTP id c18so8055443oiy.9; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:48:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AlnCJUgS+bFHWeEskkSpVWm3fhOMYz6N3k3er6S+kGg=; b=m5AmmZdqBEftKoVHnObfMtJ+wxvxkChJdwR5U4QcFBij1V8DsHNANhjWYtcYRda6Ry N5P8MSLq2DZLJzJnzZ3kJYhD4/QUD0v4rwLJ3W+FVSAgY81S7ZAS9wDrqtAjT+RtjizP JbrshAOmb2tR01qb3kMb0RON8gNJ2x4XBgGuJ3eQZVJPsUoTOBnaT3d/ZuuJFR8if7kW ESWWHxhbVTsR0SxeHtHaAi7UDDtm781P+QUMeV6K1xKm0e7aHgdXoEwWqYC2jV5iaAzR zcZhJYNA0kW6PilLfhUhFmOP2dCgx3RygLBrJSoKakuUtEJ4Cr+Tg8YVZ/HZ8CjhHcNi dxXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AlnCJUgS+bFHWeEskkSpVWm3fhOMYz6N3k3er6S+kGg=; b=e2xR2kbllSABPkkv1L7vhoHT7WaFnBZo+zbZoE/BtxedRVmZQigsazgAvTyHthC11t wUGAeEtf1M4LPq0wKd4fhb0n6gsZSEur0WCfEMYr8BaXYwQD00VYjy2NQkkQxhiAKusB xQsbXy4rVXs+0gBrgb2r0uHEkBaIP65MAyF+utan50LJk5LHEHbL3fJ64UPcEOISWBDV 7UMVKaU/fK7iDREGfoaHr5farUU1/uY/Nk2BxL9HiwTez1VEWOA5Kvxeta3vnzIiFI9X U4lBo5Pmq5rwhIq1q0op6mXefjqFgLQ8uC1PkLhNMgvQG5jWpvIcCUkVWq7uLIpAOIIk arTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HlFipeeIl64HU5ILArVtMFwtgjg8zmolvfadp7zDKFCW/MW7xQ 8VGt1OMsnkP/OvVvRr/c1RK8nTjYAadL0CIM3sU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtrB1WHhenVXYP5HkM6vZTznRSWEPC552HTGcYzr/jAIoZtxI02+/b4U16TFnKCKwHp3aMkz9TeaEPGz0kS89E= X-Received: by 10.202.204.203 with SMTP id c194mr21248538oig.156.1520632106522; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:48:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.68.57 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:48:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> From: Alia Atlas Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 16:48:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Peter Psenak , bier-chairs@ietf.org Cc: Alvaro Retana , BIER WG , Reshad Rahman , The IESG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1134f3428b1f65056701c027" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 21:48:31 -0000 --001a1134f3428b1f65056701c027 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Peter, I do not see discussion with Eric or Suresh on their Discusses. This draft also has Normative References to RFC 8279 and RFC 8296. The Discusses need to be resolved. The normative reference (where the Status Update was deferred), means that when this is approved, it'll have to have an RFC Editor Note to hold it until that Status Update is approved (or bis versions are issued, if necessary). I do not know if resolving of the Discusses will happen by Weds of IETF. If not, then the draft will not have a Yes ballot (unless Alvaro changes his) and may need to go back through IESG Evaluation. Regards, Alia On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote= : > OK, > > draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-09 > > > > limited last call finished now. I see the document moved to publication. > > On OSPF I still see Suresh & Eric in discuss. Peter, did we address those > comments ? > > thanks > > --- tony > > > > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: > >> ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem addressed adequatly. >> Outstanding points I don't think need addressing further >> >> * invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity ospf vs isis signalling. >> That's really a defect of RFC8279 where we should have been stricter wit= h >> language. Not a problem of IGP drafts >> * registry: I think that will be cleaned up during publication process, >> i.e. registry created and references taken out of the drafts >> * no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given RFC8279 >> is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this restriction. The >> length clause would not change any other considerations anyway such as >> behavior when 2 routers advertise the same prefix in an area with >> conflicting BIER information which is addressed in the draft already. >> >> Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all following >> procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to IESG for publicat= ion >> ... >> >> Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call limited to changes in >> versions -14 and -15 >> >> thanks >> >> --- tony >> >> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana >> wrote: >> >>> Peter: >>> >>> Hi! Thanks for addressing my comment! >>> >>> Alvaro. >>> >>> On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com) >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alvaro, >>> >>> please see inline (##PP): >>> >>> On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote: >>> > On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com >>> > ) wrote: >>> > >>> > Peter: >>> > >>> > Hi! >>> > >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>> >>> >> > COMMENT: >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>> >>> >> > >>> >> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some work: >>> >> > >>> >> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the 128-255 >>> range? >>> >> >>> >> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored" Do we nee to >>> say >>> >> the same here again? >>> > >>> > Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in the >>> > LSAs when used for MTR. >>> > >>> > What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV? >>> > >>> > For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with one and >>> only >>> > one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT-ID is >>> not >>> > known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check? >>> >>> ##PP >>> ok, I have added the following statement: >>> >>> "If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in [RFC4915], th= e >>> BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." >>> >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured with a valid >>> BFR-id, the value >>> >> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279]." I looked in >>> rfc8279 for >>> >> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this instead: "The valu= e >>> 0 is not a >>> >> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "invalid" is the same as >>> "not >>> >> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent. >>> >> >>> >> would you agree with: >>> >> >>> >> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as illegal in >>> >> [RFC8279]. >>> > >>> > Yeah, that=E2=80=99s fine. >>> > >>> > Side comment: it=E2=80=99s a shame that rfc8279 chose =E2=80=9Cillega= l=E2=80=9D to describe a >>> > value that can be used. >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advertising >>> duplicates MUST be >>> >> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id." How are BFRs >>> that >>> >> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated? >>> >> >>> >> what about: >>> >> >>> >> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id" >>> > >>> > Sorry=E2=80=A6the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? What ne= eds to be >>> > done by the receiver? >>> >>> rfc8279, section 5 says: >>> >>> " If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both advertised the >>> same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an error. >>> Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A is >>> functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value N in >>> the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been assigned to the >>> given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the packet needs >>> to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C. >>> >>> This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicast >>> traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioning >>> error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them >>> receive each other's traffic. >>> >>> >>> ... >>> >>> If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particular >>> sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST interpret >>> that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR does not have >>> a BFR-id in that sub-domain." >>> >>> >>> So I rewrote the section as: >>> >>> "All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid BFR-IDs for a >>> given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is detected by the >>> BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279]." >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value not >>> supported in >>> >> > rfc8296? >>> >> >>> >> what about: >>> >> >>> >> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match any of the >>> >> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsulation >>> >> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." >>> > >>> > ok >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs >>> advertised by the >>> >> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, the >>> advertising router >>> >> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-TLVs." If >>> an overlap >>> >> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising the >>> overlap) are >>> >> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right? The text >>> is not >>> >> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the BFR that >>> advertised >>> >> > last (and resulted in the detection happening). >>> >> >>> >> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advertises >>> the >>> >> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV= s >>> it >>> >> advertises. >>> > >>> > Yeah=E2=80=A6sorry=E2=80=A6overlooked that first part. >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What is a "valid" label= ? >>> >> >>> >> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we specified >>> earlier >>> >> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost bits >>> represent >>> >> the first label" and any value should be fine. >>> > >>> > Well=E2=80=A6there are some reserved values=E2=80=A6 rfc3032=E2=80=A6 >>> > >>> >>> How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have been defined i= n >>> rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. I have >>> removed the following text: >>> >>> "All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER sub-TLV MUST b= e >>> ignored. >>> >>> thanks, >>> Peter >>> >>> > >>> > ... >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > (2) Security Considerations >>> >> > >>> >> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an attacker could >>> simply >>> >> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges and have a >>> significant >>> >> > impact on the network. >>> >> >>> >> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and existing >>> >> text covers that: >>> >> >>> >> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to >>> one >>> >> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, >>> >> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in >>> [RFC7474] >>> >> SHOULD be used." >>> > >>> > I=E2=80=99ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks this i= s ok. >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > (3) IANA Considerations >>> >> > >>> >> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is a Sub-TLV of >>> the BIER >>> >> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is allocated from >>> the OSPF >>> >> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new registry for >>> sub-TLVs for >>> >> > the BIER Sub-TLV. >>> >> >>> >> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines sub-TLVs >>> >> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs". >>> >> >>> >> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do so :) >>> > >>> > Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in the >>> > registry itself. >>> > >>> > We=E2=80=99re good then. >>> > >>> > Thanks! >>> > >>> > Alvaro. >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --001a1134f3428b1f65056701c027 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Peter,

I do not see discussion with = Eric or Suresh on their Discusses.=C2=A0
This draft also has Norm= ative References to RFC 8279 and RFC 8296.

The Dis= cusses need to be resolved.=C2=A0 The normative reference (where the Status= Update
was deferred), means that when this is approved, it'l= l have to have an RFC Editor Note to
hold it until that Status Up= date is approved (or bis versions are issued, if necessary).

= I do not know if resolving of the Discusses will happen by Weds of IETF.=C2= =A0 If not, then the
draft will not have a Yes ballot (unless Alv= aro changes his) and may need to go back through
IESG Evaluation.=

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:17 PM,= Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
limited last call finished now= . I see the document moved to publication.

On OSPF I still see= Suresh & Eric in discuss. Peter, did we address those comments ?
<= br>
thanks

--- tony



O= n Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
<= div>
ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem addressed = adequatly. Outstanding points I don't think need addressing further
=
* invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity ospf vs isis sign= alling. That's really a defect of RFC8279 where we should have been str= icter with language. Not a problem of IGP drafts
* registry: I thi= nk that will be cleaned up during publication process, i.e. registry create= d and references taken out of the drafts
* no /32 /128 lengt= h restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given RFC8279 is not mandating it a= nd OSPF works fine without this restriction. The length clause would not ch= ange any other considerations anyway such as behavior when 2 routers advert= ise the same prefix in an area with conflicting BIER information which is a= ddressed in the draft already.=C2=A0

Alvaro, I iss= ue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all following procedure the way= ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to IESG for publication ...

=
Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call limited to changes= in versions -14 and -15

thanks

--- t= ony

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018= at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wro= te:
Peter:

Hi!=C2=A0 = Thanks for addressing my comment!

Alvaro.

On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 A= M, Peter Psenak (pps= enak@cisco.com) wrote:

Hi Alvaro,

please see inline (##PP):

On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote:
> On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com
> <mailto:= ppsenak@cisco.com>) wrote:
>
> Peter:
>
> Hi!
>
>> > ----------------------------------------------------= ------------------
>> > COMMENT:
>> > ----------------------------------------------------= ------------------
>> >
>> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some wo= rk:
>> >
>> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the= 128-255 range?
>>
>> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored&quo= t; Do we nee to say
>> the same here again?
>
> Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in = the
> LSAs when used for MTR.
>
> What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV?
>
> For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with o= ne and only
> one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT= -ID is not
> known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check?

##PP
ok, I have added the following statement:

"If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in [RFC4915= ], the =20
BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored."

>
>
>> >
>> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured wit= h a valid BFR-id, the value
>> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279].&quo= t; I looked in rfc8279 for
>> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this= instead: "The value 0 is not a
>> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "inva= lid" is the same as "not
>> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent.
>>
>> would you agree with:
>>
>> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as= illegal in
>> [RFC8279].
>
> Yeah, that=E2=80=99s fine.
>
> Side comment: it=E2=80=99s a shame that rfc8279 chose =E2=80=9Cill= egal=E2=80=9D to describe a
> value that can be used.
>
>
>> >
>> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advert= ising duplicates MUST be
>> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id."= ; How are BFRs that
>> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated?
>>
>> what about:
>>
>> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id"
>
> Sorry=E2=80=A6the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? Wha= t needs to be
> done by the receiver?

rfc8279, section 5 says:

" If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both advertis= ed the
same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an error.
Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A = is
functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value N in
the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been assigned to t= he
given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the packet need= s
to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C.

This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicast
traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioning
error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them
receive each other's traffic.


...

If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particular
sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST interpret
that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR does not hav= e
a BFR-id in that sub-domain."


So I rewrote the section as:

"All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid BFR-IDs for= a =20
given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is detected by the= =20
BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279]."


>
>
>> >
>> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value = not supported in
>> > rfc8296?
>>
>> what about:
>>
>> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match a= ny of the
>> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsula= tion
>> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored."
>
> ok
>
>
>> >
>> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation S= ub-TLVs advertised by the
>> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, th= e advertising router
>> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-T= LVs." If an overlap
>> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising t= he overlap) are
>> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right?= The text is not
>> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the= BFR that advertised
>> > last (and resulted in the detection happening).
>>
>> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advert= ises the
>> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation S= ub-TLVs it
>> advertises.
>
> Yeah=E2=80=A6sorry=E2=80=A6overlooked that first part.
>
>
>> > =09
>> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What= is a "valid" label?
>>
>> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we speci= fied earlier
>> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost b= its represent
>> the first label" and any value should be fine.
>
> Well=E2=80=A6there are some reserved values=E2=80=A6 rfc3032=E2=80= =A6
>

How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have been defined i= n =20
rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. I have =20
removed the following text:

"All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER sub-TLV M= UST be =20
ignored.

thanks,
Peter

>
> ...
>
>> >
>> > (2) Security Considerations
>> >
>> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an at= tacker could simply
>> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges a= nd have a significant
>> > impact on the network.
>>
>> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and ex= isting
>> text covers that:
>>
>> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have = access to one
>> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployme= nts,
>> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in = [RFC7474]
>> SHOULD be used."
>
> I=E2=80=99ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks thi= s is ok.
>
>> >
>> > (3) IANA Considerations
>> >
>> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is= a Sub-TLV of the BIER
>> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is = allocated from the OSPF
>> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new reg= istry for sub-TLVs for
>> > the BIER Sub-TLV.
>>
>> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines= sub-TLVs
>> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs".
>>
>> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do s= o :)
>
> Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in t= he
> registry itself.
>
> We=E2=80=99re good then.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Alvaro.
>


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BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier




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--001a1134f3428b1f65056701c027-- From nobody Fri Mar 9 16:50:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1AEF126C0F for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 16:50:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ycODvVKcdZ5Z for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 16:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07A641242F5 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 16:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2651358C4B8; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 01:50:01 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 0BCB8B0DCA9; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 01:50:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 01:50:00 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Cc: "zhang.zheng" , Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Message-ID: <20180310005000.GA24341@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201803090845165214172@zte.com.cn> <20180309165820.GA15900@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 00:50:10 -0000 Ok. you want the most fine/grained/flexible option... [Ignoring defaults semantics in Yang, no idea yet what that means.] We create writeable BCTT (Bier Controller Topology Table) with bit entries like BIRT, each has a preference value. We have a read-only BIRT where we will see for each bit either the bit semantic from the BCTT if the controller won, or the IGP learned bit info when the IGP won. Not sure if/how we would assign preference to IGP entries. COUld be confgiured default, could be inherited from existing IGP Yang model preferences. Not even sure if IGP Yang models include preference semantic. If theey do we should try to figure out how we can best be compatible. Of course lot more refinemenet needed. Would be good if everything we do could be declared to be stolen 1:1 from existing yang/igp best practices and adopted by considering bfr-id's to be just another address/prefix type. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 09:48:54AM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Toerless, thanks, good observation. > > My preference would be with a "like route-preference" based approach to > avoid configuring things per SD, per node but it would be interesting to > hear other opinions. And the static (just like static route) always beats > dynamic normally, worked extremely well in IP routing case ... > > Yes, I forgot that in BIER-TE case that may be extremely useful as well ... > > --- tony > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 8:58 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > Well, if you want to experiment with defining a full BIFT in yang, > > we'd need that IMHO more with BIER-TE than BIER first because that one > > relies ground up on a controller, and i first need LSR work for > > the IGP extensions to create an 'reduced controller dependent' option. > > > > For BIER, the most difficult question to answer unfortunately first > > is probably the way how to deal with conflicts between controller > > and IGP generation of BIFT entries. > > > > If its sufficient, then we could make this based on some per-domain > > or per-sd or per-bift mode-switch. > > > > Or its even based on per-bift-entry (bit) preference: Both IGP > > and controller can write info, but it will have different precedence, > > and the BIFT will carry highest precedence info (like we do it > > for routes in RIBs/FIBs). > > > > I would suggest to go with per-sd mode switch, that allows > > co-extance of controller for some sd and igp for others and keeps > > it simple. But no strong opinion because i have not concrete > > idea of the most important BIER + controller use case to model > > the details. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 05:07:52PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would be a very good property > > of > > > BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have BIFT-id in the model right > > > now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face a bit so you can tell me > > > what you think. Toerless may join ;-) Obviously it's quite an addition, > > > we'd need to expose BIFTs in the config part and not now as some > > > BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ... I would even go further and think > > > whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writable entries to make > > support > > > for controller based/unsignalled solutions trivial (because otherwise, > > what > > > good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if there is no IGP to compute > > the > > > BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running then part of the configuration > > > could be something like a "static mapping algorithm ID" anyway ;-) ? > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:45 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Tony, hi Toerless, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails but I have not > > > > finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P) > > > > > > > > Do you discuss the flexibity of BIFT-id? > > > > > > > > If it is, we would like to add a readable and writable leafs in the > > YANG > > > > model. Is it enough? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > ???????????? > > > > *????????????*TonyPrzygienda > > > > *????????????*Toerless Eckert > > > > *????????????*Greg Shepherd BIER WG > > > > *??? ??? ???*2018???03???08??? 09:55 > > > > *??? ??? ???**Re: [Bier] Call for > > > > adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01* > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in the yang models > > is > > > > all we need and would be good to have in first release while all the > > > > encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about the yang > > draft > > > > since I looked @ it last time :^) > > > > > > > > -- tony > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > > > >> Sure & thanks > > > >> > > > >> Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your > > resistance > > > >> to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in > > email. > > > >> > > > >> Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but maybe if > > > >> we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an > > > >> explicit > > > >> ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of <-> > > bift > > > >> mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup document and > > > >> not the existing yang drafgt ? > > > >> > > > >> Cheers > > > >> Toerless > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > >> > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're > > > >> calling a > > > >> > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely now > > > >> > > > > >> > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) > > > >> > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on > > non-MPLS > > > >> > encaps (I'm neutral) > > > >> > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS > > encaps > > > >> (I'm > > > >> > against) > > > >> > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) > > > >> > > > > >> > fair 'nuff? > > > >> > > > > >> > -- tony > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > >> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... This is > > > >> like > > > >> > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers on > > ... > > > >> > > > > > >> > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard defined > > > >> > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of this > > > >> > > discussion. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're interpreting the > > > >> > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to > > > >> established > > > >> > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what the > > > >> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 assignments. > > > >> > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL already > > > >> exists > > > >> > > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it > > means the > > > >> > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: SDN > > > >> > > controller). > > > >> > > > > > >> > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to > > be > > > >> > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially > > > >> inconsistent > > > >> > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation > > issue. > > > >> But > > > >> > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent configuration > > > >> required: > > > >> > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment scheme. > > Its > > > >> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger if > > it > > > >> was > > > >> > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an informational > > > >> > > suggestion. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > > > >> > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format if > > > >> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full 20 > > bit > > > >> > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have the > > full > > > >> > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the > > current > > > >> > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - > > unless > > > >> we > > > >> > > make > > > >> > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static > > > >> provisioning > > > >> > > being > > > >> > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, > > > >> otherwise the > > > >> > > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one > > would > > > >> bother > > > >> > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field ? Or > > > >> > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we standardise a > > > >> network > > > >> > > wide > > > >> > > consistent semantic ? > > > >> > > > > > >> > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably working > > > >> > > interoperable > > > >> > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on > > > >> standardized > > > >> > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field is > > > >> always an > > > >> > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the past > > most, > > > >> > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. Seee > > > >> above > > > >> > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred > > standard > > > >> > > semantic" > > > >> > > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be > > provisioned > > > >> and > > > >> > > give > > > >> > > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. And > > build > > > >> some > > > >> > > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but > > please, > > > >> not as > > > >> > > > part of standard track OAM > > > >> > > > > > >> > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what > > version of > > > >> > > the packet it is... > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the > > drafts > > > >> life > > > >> > > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted > > interpretation of > > > >> > > flexibility - or not. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically > > discover > > > >> thre > > > >> > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP > > forwarding. And > > > >> > > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the > > BIFT-ID > > > >> > > > > hop-by-hop.). > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label space > > and > > > >> > > signal > > > >> > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft for > > > >> people > > > >> > > right > > > >> > > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the > > benefits > > > >> first > > > >> > > ;-) > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap > > > >> option/benefits. > > > >> > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we do > > not > > > >> try to > > > >> > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure native-IP > > > >> encap > > > >> > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the only > > bit > > > >> missing > > > >> > > > > for that option. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one > > voice > > > >> but > > > >> > > Greg > > > >> > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make > > > >> "BIFT-id > > > >> > > MUST > > > >> > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but I'll > > stop > > > >> at > > > >> > > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there. To me it just > > means to > > > >> > > > >> > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS solution > > and > > > >> > > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple (and > > would > > > >> > > still > > > >> > > allow for other options). > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the charter > > if > > > >> we try > > > >> > > to > > > >> > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my > > experience, > > > >> > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in tears. > > We > > > >> may end > > > >> > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and then > > > >> what will > > > >> > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to > > fast-path", > > > >> > > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard > > after > > > >> stuff > > > >> > > is > > > >> > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no > > structure > > > >> to > > > >> > > > them. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We just > > need > > > >> to > > > >> > > know SI,SD. > > > >> > > (already have HSL). > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing > > something > > > >> > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from exp > > to > > > >> std, > > > >> > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have WG > > > >> reconsider > > > >> > > > > its target. > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want to > > > >> change the > > > >> > > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & > > Greg > > > >> has to > > > >> > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote right > > now > > > >> > > because i > > > >> > > love the work, but i think without being standards track its just > > > >> > > introducing > > > >> > > more confusion than benefit. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Cheers > > > >> > > Toerless > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > --- tony > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > >> > > > BIER mailing list > > > >> > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > -- > > > >> > > --- > > > >> > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> --- > > > >> tte@cs.fau.de > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Mar 9 16:56:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4148126C0F; Fri, 9 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Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Mar 2018 00:56:50 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w2A0uoso013207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Mar 2018 00:56:50 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 19:56:49 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 19:56:49 -0500 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Alia Atlas , "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" CC: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" , BIER WG , "The IESG" , Alvaro Retana Thread-Topic: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTq+kIiua0suPNl0+z4DOZ+vAIHqOw+FYAgABpVICAAOtxAIAKEKBzgAfQFwCABK7hgP//4M+A Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 00:56:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.196] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BB87159A0CF94007ADB9942A7AE5662Bciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: 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<20180310005000.GA24341@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201803090845165214172@zte.com.cn> <20180309165820.GA15900@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180310005000.GA24341@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 18:00:22 -0800 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "zhang.zheng" , Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e082f6340f00c390567054707" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 02:01:09 -0000 --089e082f6340f00c390567054707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Toerless, all agreed, worth talking it through and see what emerges. I don't think we need a new concept like BCCT (or maybe we do) and I think that we should think whether writing just BIRTs (including next-hops) is good enough. Maybe it is and we don't even have to write BIFTs but in case of TE I think we need writable BIFTs as well (but here I would encourage a split in Yang given that TE really interprets the mask very, very differently) ... So BIFT-id is just a side-show if the group thinks it's a good direction to go and work on. (I never "want it" ;-) but based on other people's long experience I learned from) in control plane I always strive for the "widest architecture" which you can call flexible unless complexity or performance becomes unmanageable. Complexity is structured by keeping things orthogonal (i.e. exceptions and interactions between things @ minimum), things like having some special back-off on BIFT-id in one encaps or overlapping pieces can hog-tie the architecture up over time due to all the exceptions created. So yes, IMO it's worth hard thinking how to generalize/keep things clean, it's just brain cycles over beer and dinners comparatively speaking ... Control plane today performance wise is cheap if done correctly in my daily experience but yes, there are limits. And otherwise RFC1925 12) always applies. In the forwarding path it's the opposite, least amount of abstractions, very tight encodings, minimal flexibility, least structure that is feasible. It's silicon gates and beside power/size/gates the more complex the fwd' path the buggier the chips and the longer it takes to get anything working in the field. And again, we're in STD track, it's a higher standard we will/should be held up to so the thinking and possibly iteration of different ideas may tend to take more time. We got the first rush of delivering a good base out there & deployments have enough to catch up, we have the time I think to do things we focus now on thoughtfully and well ... --- tony On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Ok. you want the most fine/grained/flexible option... > > [Ignoring defaults semantics in Yang, no idea yet what that means.] > > We create writeable BCTT (Bier Controller Topology Table) with bit entries > like BIRT, each has a preference value. We have a read-only BIRT where we > will see > for each bit either the bit semantic from the BCTT if the controller won, > or the IGP > learned bit info when the IGP won. Not sure if/how we would assign > preference > to IGP entries. COUld be confgiured default, could be inherited from > existing IGP Yang model preferences. Not even sure if IGP Yang models > include > preference semantic. If theey do we should try to figure out how we can > best be compatible. > > Of course lot more refinemenet needed. Would be good if everything we do > could be > declared to be stolen 1:1 from existing yang/igp best practices and > adopted by considering bfr-id's to be just another address/prefix type. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 09:48:54AM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > Toerless, thanks, good observation. > > > > My preference would be with a "like route-preference" based approach to > > avoid configuring things per SD, per node but it would be interesting to > > hear other opinions. And the static (just like static route) always > beats > > dynamic normally, worked extremely well in IP routing case ... > > > > Yes, I forgot that in BIER-TE case that may be extremely useful as well > ... > > > > --- tony > > > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 8:58 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > Well, if you want to experiment with defining a full BIFT in yang, > > > we'd need that IMHO more with BIER-TE than BIER first because that one > > > relies ground up on a controller, and i first need LSR work for > > > the IGP extensions to create an 'reduced controller dependent' option. > > > > > > For BIER, the most difficult question to answer unfortunately first > > > is probably the way how to deal with conflicts between controller > > > and IGP generation of BIFT entries. > > > > > > If its sufficient, then we could make this based on some per-domain > > > or per-sd or per-bift mode-switch. > > > > > > Or its even based on per-bift-entry (bit) preference: Both IGP > > > and controller can write info, but it will have different precedence, > > > and the BIFT will carry highest precedence info (like we do it > > > for routes in RIBs/FIBs). > > > > > > I would suggest to go with per-sd mode switch, that allows > > > co-extance of controller for some sd and igp for others and keeps > > > it simple. But no strong opinion because i have not concrete > > > idea of the most important BIER + controller use case to model > > > the details. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 05:07:52PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > > Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would be a very good > property > > > of > > > > BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have BIFT-id in the model > right > > > > now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face a bit so you can > tell me > > > > what you think. Toerless may join ;-) Obviously it's quite an > addition, > > > > we'd need to expose BIFTs in the config part and not now as some > > > > BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ... I would even go further and > think > > > > whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writable entries to make > > > support > > > > for controller based/unsignalled solutions trivial (because > otherwise, > > > what > > > > good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if there is no IGP to > compute > > > the > > > > BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running then part of the > configuration > > > > could be something like a "static mapping algorithm ID" anyway ;-) ? > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:45 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Tony, hi Toerless, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails but I have > not > > > > > finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P) > > > > > > > > > > Do you discuss the flexibity of BIFT-id? > > > > > > > > > > If it is, we would like to add a readable and writable leafs in the > > > YANG > > > > > model. Is it enough? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ???????????? > > > > > *????????????*TonyPrzygienda > > > > > *????????????*Toerless Eckert > > > > > *????????????*Greg Shepherd BIER WG < > bier@ietf.org> > > > > > *??? ??? ???*2018???03???08??? 09:55 > > > > > *??? ??? ???**Re: [Bier] Call for > > > > > adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in the yang > models > > > is > > > > > all we need and would be good to have in first release while all > the > > > > > encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about the > yang > > > draft > > > > > since I looked @ it last time :^) > > > > > > > > > > -- tony > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Sure & thanks > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your > > > resistance > > > > >> to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in > > > email. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but > maybe if > > > > >> we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an > > > > >> explicit > > > > >> ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of > <-> > > > bift > > > > >> mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup > document and > > > > >> not the existing yang drafgt ? > > > > >> > > > > >> Cheers > > > > >> Toerless > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > > >> > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're > > > > >> calling a > > > > >> > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely > now > > > > >> > > > > > >> > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) > > > > >> > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on > > > non-MPLS > > > > >> > encaps (I'm neutral) > > > > >> > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS > > > encaps > > > > >> (I'm > > > > >> > against) > > > > >> > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) > > > > >> > > > > > >> > fair 'nuff? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > -- tony > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda > wrote: > > > > >> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... > This is > > > > >> like > > > > >> > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers > on > > > ... > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard > defined > > > > >> > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of > this > > > > >> > > discussion. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're > interpreting the > > > > >> > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to > > > > >> established > > > > >> > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what > the > > > > >> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 > assignments. > > > > >> > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL > already > > > > >> exists > > > > >> > > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it > > > means the > > > > >> > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: > SDN > > > > >> > > controller). > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 > bits to > > > be > > > > >> > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially > > > > >> inconsistent > > > > >> > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation > > > issue. > > > > >> But > > > > >> > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent > configuration > > > > >> required: > > > > >> > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment > scheme. > > > Its > > > > >> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger > if > > > it > > > > >> was > > > > >> > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an > informational > > > > >> > > suggestion. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > > > > >> > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format > if > > > > >> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full > 20 > > > bit > > > > >> > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have > the > > > full > > > > >> > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the > > > current > > > > >> > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - > > > unless > > > > >> we > > > > >> > > make > > > > >> > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static > > > > >> provisioning > > > > >> > > being > > > > >> > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, > > > > >> otherwise the > > > > >> > > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one > > > would > > > > >> bother > > > > >> > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field > ? Or > > > > >> > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we > standardise a > > > > >> network > > > > >> > > wide > > > > >> > > consistent semantic ? > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably > working > > > > >> > > interoperable > > > > >> > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on > > > > >> standardized > > > > >> > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field > is > > > > >> always an > > > > >> > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the > past > > > most, > > > > >> > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. > Seee > > > > >> above > > > > >> > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred > > > standard > > > > >> > > semantic" > > > > >> > > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be > > > provisioned > > > > >> and > > > > >> > > give > > > > >> > > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. > And > > > build > > > > >> some > > > > >> > > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but > > > please, > > > > >> not as > > > > >> > > > part of standard track OAM > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what > > > version of > > > > >> > > the packet it is... > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the > > > drafts > > > > >> life > > > > >> > > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted > > > interpretation of > > > > >> > > flexibility - or not. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically > > > discover > > > > >> thre > > > > >> > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP > > > forwarding. And > > > > >> > > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the > > > BIFT-ID > > > > >> > > > > hop-by-hop.). > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label > space > > > and > > > > >> > > signal > > > > >> > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft > for > > > > >> people > > > > >> > > right > > > > >> > > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the > > > benefits > > > > >> first > > > > >> > > ;-) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap > > > > >> option/benefits. > > > > >> > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we > do > > > not > > > > >> try to > > > > >> > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure > native-IP > > > > >> encap > > > > >> > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the > only > > > bit > > > > >> missing > > > > >> > > > > for that option. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one > > > voice > > > > >> but > > > > >> > > Greg > > > > >> > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make > > > > >> "BIFT-id > > > > >> > > MUST > > > > >> > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but > I'll > > > stop > > > > >> at > > > > >> > > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there. To me it just > > > means to > > > > >> > > > > >> > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS > solution > > > and > > > > >> > > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple > (and > > > would > > > > >> > > still > > > > >> > > allow for other options). > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the > charter > > > if > > > > >> we try > > > > >> > > to > > > > >> > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my > > > experience, > > > > >> > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in > tears. > > > We > > > > >> may end > > > > >> > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and > then > > > > >> what will > > > > >> > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to > > > fast-path", > > > > >> > > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard > > > after > > > > >> stuff > > > > >> > > is > > > > >> > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no > > > structure > > > > >> to > > > > >> > > > them. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We > just > > > need > > > > >> to > > > > >> > > know SI,SD. > > > > >> > > (already have HSL). > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing > > > something > > > > >> > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from > exp > > > to > > > > >> std, > > > > >> > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have > WG > > > > >> reconsider > > > > >> > > > > its target. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want > to > > > > >> change the > > > > >> > > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & > > > Greg > > > > >> has to > > > > >> > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote > right > > > now > > > > >> > > because i > > > > >> > > love the work, but i think without being standards track its > just > > > > >> > > introducing > > > > >> > > more confusion than benefit. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Cheers > > > > >> > > Toerless > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > --- tony > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > >> > > > BIER mailing list > > > > >> > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > -- > > > > >> > > --- > > > > >> > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> --- > > > > >> tte@cs.fau.de > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > --089e082f6340f00c390567054707 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Toerless, all agreed, worth talking it thro= ugh and see what emerges. I don't think we need a new concept like BCCT= (or maybe we do) and I think that we should think whether writing just BIR= Ts (including next-hops) is good enough. Maybe it is and we don't even = have to write BIFTs but in case of TE I think we need writable BIFTs as wel= l (but here I would encourage a split in Yang given that TE really interpre= ts the mask very, very differently) ... So BIFT-id is just a side-show if t= he group thinks it's a good direction to go and work on.

= (I never "want it" ;-) but based on other people's long exper= ience I learned from) in control plane I always strive for the "widest= architecture" which you can call flexible unless complexity or perfor= mance becomes unmanageable. Complexity is structured by keeping things orth= ogonal (i.e. exceptions and interactions between things @ minimum), things = like having some special back-off on BIFT-id in one encaps or overlapping p= ieces can hog-tie the architecture up over time due to all the exceptions c= reated. So yes, IMO it's worth hard thinking how to generalize/keep thi= ngs clean, it's just brain cycles over beer and dinners comparatively s= peaking ...=C2=A0 Control plane today performance wise is cheap if done cor= rectly in my daily experience but yes, there are limits. And otherwise RFC1= 925 12) always applies.

In the forwarding path it's the o= pposite, least amount of abstractions, very tight encodings,=C2=A0 minimal = flexibility, least structure that is feasible. It's silicon gates and b= eside power/size/gates the more complex the fwd' path the buggier the c= hips and the longer it takes to get anything working in the field.

=
And again, we're in STD track, it's a higher standard we= will/should be held up to so the thinking and possibly iteration of differ= ent ideas may tend to take more time. We got the first rush of delivering a= good base out there & deployments have enough to catch up, we have the= time I think to do things we focus now on thoughtfully and well ...

--- tony

On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.f= au.de> wrote:
Ok. you want = the most fine/grained/flexible option...

[Ignoring defaults semantics in Yang, no idea yet what that means.]

We create writeable BCTT (Bier Controller Topology Table) with bit entries<= br> like BIRT, each has a preference value. We have a read-only BIRT where we w= ill see
for each bit either the bit semantic from the BCTT if the controller won, o= r the IGP
learned bit info when the IGP won.=C2=A0 Not sure if/how we would assign pr= eference
to IGP entries. COUld be confgiured default, could be inherited from
existing IGP Yang model preferences. Not even sure if IGP Yang models inclu= de
preference semantic. If theey do we should try to figure out how we can
best be compatible.

Of course lot more refinemenet needed. Would be good if everything we do co= uld be
declared to be stolen 1:1 from existing yang/igp best practices and
adopted by considering bfr-id's to be just another address/prefix type.=

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless

On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 09:48:54AM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> Toerless, thanks, good observation.
>
> My preference would be with a "like route-preference" based = approach to
> avoid configuring things per SD, per node but it would be interesting = to
> hear other opinions.=C2=A0 And the static (just like static route) alw= ays beats
> dynamic normally, worked extremely well in IP routing case ...
>
> Yes, I forgot that in BIER-TE case that may be extremely useful as wel= l ...
>
> --- tony
>
> On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 8:58 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>
> > Well, if you want to experiment with defining a full BIFT in yang= ,
> > we'd need that IMHO more with BIER-TE than BIER first because= that one
> > relies ground up on a controller, and i first need LSR work for > > the IGP extensions to create an 'reduced controller dependent= ' option.
> >
> > For BIER, the most difficult question to answer unfortunately fir= st
> > is probably the way how to deal with conflicts between controller=
> > and IGP generation of BIFT entries.
> >
> > If its sufficient, then we could make this based on some per-doma= in
> > or per-sd or per-bift mode-switch.
> >
> > Or its even based on per-bift-entry (bit) preference: Both IGP > > and controller can write info, but it will have different precede= nce,
> > and the BIFT will carry highest precedence info (like we do it > > for routes in RIBs/FIBs).
> >
> > I would suggest to go with per-sd mode switch, that allows
> > co-extance of controller for some sd and igp for others and keeps=
> > it simple. But no strong opinion because i have not concrete
> > idea of the most important BIER + controller use case to model > > the details.
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 05:07:52PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote:<= br> > > > Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would be a ve= ry good property
> > of
> > > BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have BIFT-id in = the model right
> > > now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face a bit so you= can tell me
> > > what you think. Toerless may join ;-)=C2=A0 Obviously it'= ;s quite an addition,
> > > we'd need to expose BIFTs in the config part and not now= as some
> > > BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ...=C2=A0 I would even = go further and think
> > > whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writable entries t= o make
> > support
> > > for controller based/unsignalled solutions trivial (because = otherwise,
> > what
> > > good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if there is no IGP= to compute
> > the
> > > BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running then part of the = configuration
> > > could be something like a "static mapping algorithm ID&= quot; anyway=C2=A0 ;-) ?
> > >
> > > --- tony
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:45 PM, <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Tony, hi Toerless,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails b= ut I have not
> > > > finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P)
> > > >
> > > > Do you discuss the flexibity of BIFT-id?
> > > >
> > > > If it is, we would like to add a readable and writable = leafs in the
> > YANG
> > > > model. Is it enough?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Sandy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ????????????
> > > > *????????????*TonyPrzygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> > > > *????????????*Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
> > > > *????????????*Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > > > *??? ??? ???*2018???03???08??? 09:55
> > > > *??? ??? ???**Re: [Bier] Call for
> > > > adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encod= ing-01*
> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/bier
> > > >
> > > > IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in t= he yang models
> > is
> > > > all we need and would be good to have in first release = while all the
> > > > encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all a= bout the yang
> > draft
> > > > since I looked @ it last time :^)
> > > >
> > > > -- tony
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Sure & thanks
> > > >>
> > > >> Hope we have some time over a beer for me to unders= tand your
> > resistance
> > > >> to the standard mapping, i think we won't make = progress on this in
> > email.
> > > >>
> > > >> Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the th= read, but maybe if
> > > >> we don't see an ack from one of them to this em= ail, i'll resend an
> > > >> explicit
> > > >> ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling o= f <bsl,si,sd> <->
> > bift
> > > >> mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a fol= lowup document=C2=A0 and
> > > >> not the existing yang drafgt ?
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przy= gienda wrote:
> > > >> > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait= now whether we're
> > > >> calling a
> > > >> > standards track here and what the scope of the= ask is precisely now
> > > >> >
> > > >> > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids=C2=A0 (I'= m for)
> > > >> > b) having an informational mapping for network= -wide BIFT-id on
> > non-MPLS
> > > >> > encaps (I'm neutral)
> > > >> > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BI= FT-id on non-MPLS
> > encaps
> > > >> (I'm
> > > >> > against)
> > > >> > d) draft adoption as it stands as informationa= l (I'm neutral)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > fair 'nuff?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -- tony
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Ecker= t <tte@cs.fau.de>
> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800,= Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > > >> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be = standardized IMO ... This is
> > > >> like
> > > >> > > > telling people which IP addresses to= run their DNS servers on
> > ...
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply ha= d fixed, standard defined
> > > >> > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we wou= ld not have any of this
> > > >> > > discussion.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The whole issue stems from the fact of ho= w we're interpreting=C2=A0 the
> > > >> > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The most easy way to bring this confusing= discussion back to
> > > >> established
> > > >> > > practices would something like: The first= 4 bits define what the
> > > >> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we= define 2 assignments.
> > > >> > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits = are SI, SD (BSL already
> > > >> exists
> > > >> > > in another part of the header). In anothe= r assigned value it
> > means the
> > > >> > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefin= ed procedures (eg: SDN
> > > >> > > controller).
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > We could strip down the "selection&q= uot; to even just 1 bit. 2 bits to
> > be
> > > >> > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd goo= d idea.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bi= ts with botentially
> > > >> inconsistent
> > > >> > > semantic than you're getting yourself= into this interpretation
> > issue.
> > > >> But
> > > >> > > it still is only network wide one-bit of = consistent configuration
> > > >> required:
> > > >> > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-= si-sd assignment scheme.
> > Its
> > > >> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it wou= ld be a lot stronger if
> > it
> > > >> was
> > > >> > > standardized and recommended than if it w= as just an informational
> > > >> > > suggestion.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding= tricks:
> > > >> > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses = the bsl-si-sd format if
> > > >> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we = would have the full 20
> > bit
> > > >> > > to indicate the "standardized" = bsl-si-sd and can still have the
> > full
> > > >> > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanis= ms.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > > sure, but this option does not = create an equivalent to the
> > current
> > > >> > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,ful= ly-automatic,fully-standards" -
> > unless
> > > >> we
> > > >> > > make
> > > >> > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also s= tandard.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > well, you try the impossible here. Y= ou can't have static
> > > >> provisioning
> > > >> > > being
> > > >> > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynami= c signalling protocol,
> > > >> otherwise the
> > > >> > > > whole world would still route using = static routes and no'one
> > would
> > > >> bother
> > > >> > > > with the complexity of distributed a= lgorithms, Toerless ;-)
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Why are you not making the same argument = about the TTL field ? Or
> > > >> > > DSCP field or any other fields in a heade= r where we standardise a
> > > >> network
> > > >> > > wide
> > > >> > > consistent semantic ?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: Th= e most reliably working
> > > >> > > interoperable
> > > >> > > solutions are those not depending on sign= aling, but purely on
> > > >> standardized
> > > >> > > network wide consistly interpreted inband= signaling elements.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpre= tations of one field is
> > > >> always an
> > > >> > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to = avoid this in the past
> > most,
> > > >> > > primaily also because of inflexibilities = of forwarding plane. Seee
> > > >> above
> > > >> > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the = issue. "Preferred
> > standard
> > > >> > > semantic"
> > > >> > > is definitely part of the best working so= lution strategy.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > IMO best you=C2=A0 can do is ensure = that any BIFT-id can be
> > provisioned
> > > >> and
> > > >> > > give
> > > >> > > > people some informational on how enc= oding is recommended. And
> > build
> > > >> some
> > > >> > > > informational mechanism to discover = "misconfiguration" but
> > please,
> > > >> not as
> > > >> > > > part of standard track OAM
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 heade= r indicating what
> > version of
> > > >> > > the packet it is...
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Its really just based on whether you want= to make your and the
> > drafts
> > > >> life
> > > >> > > more miserable by coming up with the most= convoluted
> > interpretation of
> > > >> > > flexibility - or not.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > > But we do not have a dynamic si= gnaling to automatically
> > discover
> > > >> thre
> > > >> > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next= -hop with native-IP
> > forwarding. And
> > > >> > > > > we can not even use the same ap= proach in native (swap the
> > BIFT-ID
> > > >> > > > > hop-by-hop.).
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > who said. What prevents you from usi= ng a "non-MPLS" label space
> > and
> > > >> > > signal
> > > >> > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions i= n IGP (I smell a draft for
> > > >> people
> > > >> > > right
> > > >> > > > there ;-)=C2=A0 0x8847 has a point ;= -)
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Don't start with the technical option= . Motivate me with the
> > benefits
> > > >> first
> > > >> > > ;-)
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Eric also didn't answer my question w= rt to other encap
> > > >> option/benefits.
> > > >> > > 9other than the generic "SDN-control= ler" which we discussed).
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > > True, but that makes it even mo= re confusing to me why we do
> > not
> > > >> try to
> > > >> > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-= simple-to-configure native-IP
> > > >> encap
> > > >> > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS e= ncap. This draft is the only
> > bit
> > > >> missing
> > > >> > > > > for that option.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > so that's what the thread is all= about. My take (and I'm one
> > voice
> > > >> but
> > > >> > > Greg
> > > >> > > > builds consenus having called it) th= at I'm all dandy to make
> > > >> "BIFT-id
> > > >> > > MUST
> > > >> > > > be capable of being out-of-band prov= isioned on Yang" but I'll
> > stop
> > > >> at
> > > >> > > > "here's one information, re= commended encoding"
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Ok. Don't understand why you're s= topping there. To me it just
> > means to
> > > >>
> > > >> > > end up with a solution thats not as simpl= e as the MPLS solution
> > and
> > > >> > > with making the encoding standard it woul= d become as simple (and
> > would
> > > >> > > still
> > > >> > > allow for other options).
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > I'm just one voice but I'll = pound most likely with the charter
> > if
> > > >> we try
> > > >> > > to
> > > >> > > > make the mapping algorithm a "s= tandard" because from my
> > experience,
> > > >> > > > exposing control plane elements to f= ast path ends up in tears.
> > We
> > > >> may end
> > > >> > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know= , just an example) and then
> > > >> what will
> > > >> > > > you do with this "this is contr= ol-plane 1:1 mapping to
> > fast-path",
> > > >> > > > especially if it's standard. We&= #39;ll have a "broken" standard
> > after
> > > >> stuff
> > > >> > > is
> > > >> > > > deployed. There is a very deep reaso= n MPLS labels have no
> > structure
> > > >> to
> > > >> > > > them.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-M= PLS forwarding. We just
> > need
> > > >> to
> > > >> > > know SI,SD.
> > > >> > > (already have HSL).
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... so= mehow i am missing
> > something
> > > >> > > very fundamental why this needs to be so = much overthought.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are tar= geted to be upgraded from exp
> > to
> > > >> std,
> > > >> > > > > there is hope even laer in the = life of this draft to have WG
> > > >> reconsider
> > > >> > > > > its target.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > <chair> Consensus was called f= or informational, if you want to
> > > >> change the
> > > >> > > > scope to "standard" that&#= 39;s a very different kettle of fish &
> > Greg
> > > >> has to
> > > >> > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. </= chair>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abs= tain from a vote right
> > now
> > > >> > > because i
> > > >> > > love the work, but i think without being = standards track its just
> > > >> > > introducing
> > > >> > > more confusion than benefit.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Cheers
> > > >> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > --- tony
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > _______________________________= ________________
> > > >> > > > BIER mailing list
> > > >> > > > BIE= R@ietf.org
> > > >> > > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/bier
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --
> > > >> > > ---
> > > >> > > tte@cs.f= au.de
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> ---
> > > >> tte@cs.fau.de<= br> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte@cs.fau.de
> >

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

--089e082f6340f00c390567054707-- From nobody Fri Mar 9 21:11:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7E8126BFD for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 21:11:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7-fUFHxlrZ-5 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 21:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 717811200F1 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 21:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E547758C4B8; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 06:10:55 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id BEE51B0DCAE; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 06:10:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 06:10:55 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tony Przygienda Cc: "zhang.zheng" , Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Message-ID: <20180310051055.GB24341@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <201803090845165214172@zte.com.cn> <20180309165820.GA15900@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20180310005000.GA24341@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 05:11:06 -0000 Will inhale your mail over longer period ;-) The idea of BCCT was just in reminder that we typically have three layers - (protocol) topology table, routing table, forwarding table. In the absence of controller there is IMHO not a lot of difference between BIRT and BIFT - certainly a lot less than in RIB/FIB or MRIB/MFIB. So with controller thrown in, what would look like a nice local mapping of what we want to do to our pre-existing three tier architecture. Thats all. Just the question. No answer yet. My BIER-TE teas draft also proposes some use of the terminology. Similarily no conclusion yet. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 06:00:22PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Toerless, all agreed, worth talking it through and see what emerges. I > don't think we need a new concept like BCCT (or maybe we do) and I think > that we should think whether writing just BIRTs (including next-hops) is > good enough. Maybe it is and we don't even have to write BIFTs but in case > of TE I think we need writable BIFTs as well (but here I would encourage a > split in Yang given that TE really interprets the mask very, very > differently) ... So BIFT-id is just a side-show if the group thinks it's a > good direction to go and work on. > > (I never "want it" ;-) but based on other people's long experience I > learned from) in control plane I always strive for the "widest > architecture" which you can call flexible unless complexity or performance > becomes unmanageable. Complexity is structured by keeping things orthogonal > (i.e. exceptions and interactions between things @ minimum), things like > having some special back-off on BIFT-id in one encaps or overlapping pieces > can hog-tie the architecture up over time due to all the exceptions > created. So yes, IMO it's worth hard thinking how to generalize/keep things > clean, it's just brain cycles over beer and dinners comparatively speaking > ... Control plane today performance wise is cheap if done correctly in my > daily experience but yes, there are limits. And otherwise RFC1925 12) > always applies. > > In the forwarding path it's the opposite, least amount of abstractions, > very tight encodings, minimal flexibility, least structure that is > feasible. It's silicon gates and beside power/size/gates the more complex > the fwd' path the buggier the chips and the longer it takes to get anything > working in the field. > > And again, we're in STD track, it's a higher standard we will/should be > held up to so the thinking and possibly iteration of different ideas may > tend to take more time. We got the first rush of delivering a good base out > there & deployments have enough to catch up, we have the time I think to do > things we focus now on thoughtfully and well ... > > --- tony > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > Ok. you want the most fine/grained/flexible option... > > > > [Ignoring defaults semantics in Yang, no idea yet what that means.] > > > > We create writeable BCTT (Bier Controller Topology Table) with bit entries > > like BIRT, each has a preference value. We have a read-only BIRT where we > > will see > > for each bit either the bit semantic from the BCTT if the controller won, > > or the IGP > > learned bit info when the IGP won. Not sure if/how we would assign > > preference > > to IGP entries. COUld be confgiured default, could be inherited from > > existing IGP Yang model preferences. Not even sure if IGP Yang models > > include > > preference semantic. If theey do we should try to figure out how we can > > best be compatible. > > > > Of course lot more refinemenet needed. Would be good if everything we do > > could be > > declared to be stolen 1:1 from existing yang/igp best practices and > > adopted by considering bfr-id's to be just another address/prefix type. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Fri, Mar 09, 2018 at 09:48:54AM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > Toerless, thanks, good observation. > > > > > > My preference would be with a "like route-preference" based approach to > > > avoid configuring things per SD, per node but it would be interesting to > > > hear other opinions. And the static (just like static route) always > > beats > > > dynamic normally, worked extremely well in IP routing case ... > > > > > > Yes, I forgot that in BIER-TE case that may be extremely useful as well > > ... > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 8:58 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > > > Well, if you want to experiment with defining a full BIFT in yang, > > > > we'd need that IMHO more with BIER-TE than BIER first because that one > > > > relies ground up on a controller, and i first need LSR work for > > > > the IGP extensions to create an 'reduced controller dependent' option. > > > > > > > > For BIER, the most difficult question to answer unfortunately first > > > > is probably the way how to deal with conflicts between controller > > > > and IGP generation of BIFT entries. > > > > > > > > If its sufficient, then we could make this based on some per-domain > > > > or per-sd or per-bift mode-switch. > > > > > > > > Or its even based on per-bift-entry (bit) preference: Both IGP > > > > and controller can write info, but it will have different precedence, > > > > and the BIFT will carry highest precedence info (like we do it > > > > for routes in RIBs/FIBs). > > > > > > > > I would suggest to go with per-sd mode switch, that allows > > > > co-extance of controller for some sd and igp for others and keeps > > > > it simple. But no strong opinion because i have not concrete > > > > idea of the most important BIER + controller use case to model > > > > the details. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 05:07:52PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > > > Yes, Sandy, that's what I personally think would be a very good > > property > > > > of > > > > > BIER yang model but AFAIS we don't even have BIFT-id in the model > > right > > > > > now. Maybe we should talk in London face 2 face a bit so you can > > tell me > > > > > what you think. Toerless may join ;-) Obviously it's quite an > > addition, > > > > > we'd need to expose BIFTs in the config part and not now as some > > > > > BIRT-sub-thingy-in-state-branch ... I would even go further and > > think > > > > > whether we want to expose BIFT entries as writable entries to make > > > > support > > > > > for controller based/unsignalled solutions trivial (because > > otherwise, > > > > what > > > > > good is it to just have a BIFT-id mapping if there is no IGP to > > compute > > > > the > > > > > BIFTs actually. And if we have IGP running then part of the > > configuration > > > > > could be something like a "static mapping algorithm ID" anyway ;-) ? > > > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:45 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tony, hi Toerless, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the late response. I read the latest emails but I have > > not > > > > > > finished the whole thread (It is so long. :P) > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you discuss the flexibity of BIFT-id? > > > > > > > > > > > > If it is, we would like to add a readable and writable leafs in the > > > > YANG > > > > > > model. Is it enough? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ???????????? > > > > > > *????????????*TonyPrzygienda > > > > > > *????????????*Toerless Eckert > > > > > > *????????????*Greg Shepherd BIER WG < > > bier@ietf.org> > > > > > > *??? ??? ???*2018???03???08??? 09:55 > > > > > > *??? ??? ???**Re: [Bier] Call for > > > > > > adoption:draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO having a writable BIFT-id field for all encaps in the yang > > models > > > > is > > > > > > all we need and would be good to have in first release while all > > the > > > > > > encoding discussion can continue ... But I forgot all about the > > yang > > > > draft > > > > > > since I looked @ it last time :^) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- tony > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Toerless Eckert > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Sure & thanks > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hope we have some time over a beer for me to understand your > > > > resistance > > > > > >> to the standard mapping, i think we won't make progress on this in > > > > email. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hope the Yang draft authors listened here on the thread, but > > maybe if > > > > > >> we don't see an ack from one of them to this email, i'll resend an > > > > > >> explicit > > > > > >> ask to start brainstorming for the yang modelling of > > <-> > > > > bift > > > > > >> mapping ? Or do you think this should go into a followup > > document and > > > > > >> not the existing yang drafgt ? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Cheers > > > > > >> Toerless > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 03:48:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > > > >> > OK, I voiced my opinion and stop here and wait now whether we're > > > > > >> calling a > > > > > >> > standards track here and what the scope of the ask is precisely > > now > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > a) having writable Yang BIFT-ids (I'm for) > > > > > >> > b) having an informational mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on > > > > non-MPLS > > > > > >> > encaps (I'm neutral) > > > > > >> > c) having standard mapping for network-wide BIFT-id on non-MPLS > > > > encaps > > > > > >> (I'm > > > > > >> > against) > > > > > >> > d) draft adoption as it stands as informational (I'm neutral) > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > fair 'nuff? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > -- tony > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Toerless Eckert > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2018 at 08:03:06PM -0800, Tony Przygienda > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > agreed except the mapping cannot be standardized IMO ... > > This is > > > > > >> like > > > > > >> > > > telling people which IP addresses to run their DNS servers > > on > > > > ... > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > That i think the fallacy. If we simply had fixed, standard > > defined > > > > > >> > > fields separately for BSL, SI, SD, we would not have any of > > this > > > > > >> > > discussion. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > The whole issue stems from the fact of how we're > > interpreting the > > > > > >> > > semantic of the BIFT-ID field. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > The most easy way to bring this confusing discussion back to > > > > > >> established > > > > > >> > > practices would something like: The first 4 bits define what > > the > > > > > >> > > remaining 16 bits mean. IANA registry, we define 2 > > assignments. > > > > > >> > > In one assignment, the following 16 bits are SI, SD (BSL > > already > > > > > >> exists > > > > > >> > > in another part of the header). In another assigned value it > > > > means the > > > > > >> > > remaining 16 bits are assigned by undefined procedures (eg: > > SDN > > > > > >> > > controller). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > We could strip down the "selection" to even just 1 bit. 2 > > bits to > > > > be > > > > > >> > > safe for someone coming up with a 3rd good idea. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > If you want to be able to reuse all 20 bits with botentially > > > > > >> inconsistent > > > > > >> > > semantic than you're getting yourself into this interpretation > > > > issue. > > > > > >> But > > > > > >> > > it still is only network wide one-bit of consistent > > configuration > > > > > >> required: > > > > > >> > > all nodes need to aggree to use this bsl-si-sd assignment > > scheme. > > > > Its > > > > > >> > > the second best solution IMHO, and it would be a lot stronger > > if > > > > it > > > > > >> was > > > > > >> > > standardized and recommended than if it was just an > > informational > > > > > >> > > suggestion. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Btw: We could do even more nasty encoding tricks: > > > > > >> > > We could say that the BIFT-ID field uses the bsl-si-sd format > > if > > > > > >> > > the existing BSL field is 0. That way we would have the full > > 20 > > > > bit > > > > > >> > > to indicate the "standardized" bsl-si-sd and can still have > > the > > > > full > > > > > >> > > 20 bits for any non-standardised mechanisms. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > sure, but this option does not create an equivalent to the > > > > current > > > > > >> > > > > MPLS-BIER "most-simple,fully-automatic,fully-standards" - > > > > unless > > > > > >> we > > > > > >> > > make > > > > > >> > > > > this bsl-si-sd mechanism also standard. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > well, you try the impossible here. You can't have static > > > > > >> provisioning > > > > > >> > > being > > > > > >> > > > as simple and worry-free as a dynamic signalling protocol, > > > > > >> otherwise the > > > > > >> > > > whole world would still route using static routes and no'one > > > > would > > > > > >> bother > > > > > >> > > > with the complexity of distributed algorithms, Toerless ;-) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Why are you not making the same argument about the TTL field > > ? Or > > > > > >> > > DSCP field or any other fields in a header where we > > standardise a > > > > > >> network > > > > > >> > > wide > > > > > >> > > consistent semantic ? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > IMHO its exactly the other way around: The most reliably > > working > > > > > >> > > interoperable > > > > > >> > > solutions are those not depending on signaling, but purely on > > > > > >> standardized > > > > > >> > > network wide consistly interpreted inband signaling elements. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Yes, the desire to have multiple interpretations of one field > > is > > > > > >> always an > > > > > >> > > interesting challenge. The IETF tried to avoid this in the > > past > > > > most, > > > > > >> > > primaily also because of inflexibilities of forwarding plane. > > Seee > > > > > >> above > > > > > >> > > for some of my ideas how to mitigate the issue. "Preferred > > > > standard > > > > > >> > > semantic" > > > > > >> > > is definitely part of the best working solution strategy. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > IMO best you can do is ensure that any BIFT-id can be > > > > provisioned > > > > > >> and > > > > > >> > > give > > > > > >> > > > people some informational on how encoding is recommended. > > And > > > > build > > > > > >> some > > > > > >> > > > informational mechanism to discover "misconfiguration" but > > > > please, > > > > > >> not as > > > > > >> > > > part of standard track OAM > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > How avbout those 4 bits in the IPv4 header indicating what > > > > version of > > > > > >> > > the packet it is... > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Its really just based on whether you want to make your and the > > > > drafts > > > > > >> life > > > > > >> > > more miserable by coming up with the most convoluted > > > > interpretation of > > > > > >> > > flexibility - or not. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > But we do not have a dynamic signaling to automatically > > > > discover > > > > > >> thre > > > > > >> > > > > BIFT-ID to use towards the next-hop with native-IP > > > > forwarding. And > > > > > >> > > > > we can not even use the same approach in native (swap the > > > > BIFT-ID > > > > > >> > > > > hop-by-hop.). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > who said. What prevents you from using a "non-MPLS" label > > space > > > > and > > > > > >> > > signal > > > > > >> > > > that in ethernet encaps extensions in IGP (I smell a draft > > for > > > > > >> people > > > > > >> > > right > > > > > >> > > > there ;-) 0x8847 has a point ;-) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Don't start with the technical option. Motivate me with the > > > > benefits > > > > > >> first > > > > > >> > > ;-) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Eric also didn't answer my question wrt to other encap > > > > > >> option/benefits. > > > > > >> > > 9other than the generic "SDN-controller" which we discussed). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > True, but that makes it even more confusing to me why we > > do > > > > not > > > > > >> try to > > > > > >> > > > > find a fully-standardized,most-simple-to-configure > > native-IP > > > > > >> encap > > > > > >> > > > > option equivalent to the MPLS encap. This draft is the > > only > > > > bit > > > > > >> missing > > > > > >> > > > > for that option. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > so that's what the thread is all about. My take (and I'm one > > > > voice > > > > > >> but > > > > > >> > > Greg > > > > > >> > > > builds consenus having called it) that I'm all dandy to make > > > > > >> "BIFT-id > > > > > >> > > MUST > > > > > >> > > > be capable of being out-of-band provisioned on Yang" but > > I'll > > > > stop > > > > > >> at > > > > > >> > > > "here's one information, recommended encoding" > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Ok. Don't understand why you're stopping there. To me it just > > > > means to > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > end up with a solution thats not as simple as the MPLS > > solution > > > > and > > > > > >> > > with making the encoding standard it would become as simple > > (and > > > > would > > > > > >> > > still > > > > > >> > > allow for other options). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > I'm just one voice but I'll pound most likely with the > > charter > > > > if > > > > > >> we try > > > > > >> > > to > > > > > >> > > > make the mapping algorithm a "standard" because from my > > > > experience, > > > > > >> > > > exposing control plane elements to fast path ends up in > > tears. > > > > We > > > > > >> may end > > > > > >> > > > up with sub-sub-domain (yeah, I know, just an example) and > > then > > > > > >> what will > > > > > >> > > > you do with this "this is control-plane 1:1 mapping to > > > > fast-path", > > > > > >> > > > especially if it's standard. We'll have a "broken" standard > > > > after > > > > > >> stuff > > > > > >> > > is > > > > > >> > > > deployed. There is a very deep reason MPLS labels have no > > > > structure > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > > > them. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Sure. But we do not need a label in non-MPLS forwarding. We > > just > > > > need > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > > know SI,SD. > > > > > >> > > (already have HSL). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Which makes it somewhat frustrating... somehow i am missing > > > > something > > > > > >> > > very fundamental why this needs to be so much overthought. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > And given how BIER RFCs are targeted to be upgraded from > > exp > > > > to > > > > > >> std, > > > > > >> > > > > there is hope even laer in the life of this draft to have > > WG > > > > > >> reconsider > > > > > >> > > > > its target. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Consensus was called for informational, if you want > > to > > > > > >> change the > > > > > >> > > > scope to "standard" that's a very different kettle of fish & > > > > Greg > > > > > >> has to > > > > > >> > > > call a new adoption call IMSO. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Of course. Which is why i said i will abstain from a vote > > right > > > > now > > > > > >> > > because i > > > > > >> > > love the work, but i think without being standards track its > > just > > > > > >> > > introducing > > > > > >> > > more confusion than benefit. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Cheers > > > > > >> > > Toerless > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > --- tony > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > >> > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > >> > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > -- > > > > > >> > > --- > > > > > >> > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> --- > > > > > >> tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > --- > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Sat Mar 10 14:47:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F70127735 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 14:46:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nuagenetworks-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VH_T8TZ6e2U0 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 14:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x22f.google.com (mail-qt0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83E81127698 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 14:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id a23so15117876qtn.0 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 14:46:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nuagenetworks-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=PcKqzVyWt48+SvMHZwJJ0kpFUYYAfm0m2bwHmKcMjow=; b=SHRws3D2f7Ef1LPPCuFMbPjC31wMl5tVLz6bMq4PCx9qBQ1nqTez7thVrEz6U/2Kbq Vylk9tIW5h0tqQrbRF6GZVEWPkkRUlPNsiFok9eFaAw/8a14p92v17RdZHRbaOcZ0ix1 scf0aWCBIioR8pueU9tEyvpkdTpxzZLBkq3IN975US7/8HZPwkHtYRXUUaOt+u/KPnHV 5FjbVFlkKw0xfYuoz0X2STZ9oCzBd2jqSknrp1vLkmkS8wlMmNFxLACOc0CdTOisIHtm ypt9xgukYFJ5M8LWxvpW2AT8NWDVgneVqnMb54EdmEG64ApYVj39JodoGNmbgHR/r22c HD0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=PcKqzVyWt48+SvMHZwJJ0kpFUYYAfm0m2bwHmKcMjow=; b=jfjXE4v7fdlQRgxQYih/MLBqErxueWVwAcPltujMknfhvaHVvSwZE4lArvi+mIvWM8 5qqhDpMk9Z/mzFKVev0qKQV2J5TDnPgk8MiNwnXiQaFIpemmVLXDT8UER2wwkJL8UIty 6XoCrLKN7wilKZgknXzYJdKcBneTPbhkq8TOWUTefJkxXsiM/VGWXDDJgHffKsBp3fKJ eOzAiVCEZXl+3pFVfSxHv6roF6oAma3NoHsARdP2g3HdDM/mftEkWgjCQXyvf6D8Hn9h FYLUVr543DGvhC8pL/m+ACRqf57AuMGBKlmIffm/LuFvnqy25PZ/4F8aOrxKrwKJ57nX DONw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Hd8oOi+B+OJO2XsVjYjeuHmFW712N9hFcWe65r3g3P0JtG8VZp PmiiVQtRHKx8AhJAcqyUovMQXb396Rc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvtgS1huw2C9G9vVtNGYejJ+f2wIAw1Qd2qRif5umg/O4mTaf0aVaKoq2vhnGElcspuFGJwPA== X-Received: by 10.200.52.174 with SMTP id w43mr5126943qtb.244.1520722015532; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 14:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (ool-457210dd.dyn.optonline.net. [69.114.16.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z9sm2847479qtb.49.2018.03.10.14.46.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Mar 2018 14:46:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-13A07F5F-8ECD-4BB2-BB2E-E81A1176AE2E Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Nabeel Cocker X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15D60) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 17:46:54 -0500 Cc: BIER WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: To: gjshep@gmail.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 22:46:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail-13A07F5F-8ECD-4BB2-BB2E-E81A1176AE2E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support.=20 Regards, Nabeel > On Feb 26, 2018, at 1:07 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: >=20 > In Singapore we had solid support to adopt draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-= bift-encoding as a WG draft. >=20 > This is a call to the list for adoption. Please read and reply with/withou= t support to this thread: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encod= ing/ >=20 > Thanks, > Greg > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --Apple-Mail-13A07F5F-8ECD-4BB2-BB2E-E81A1176AE2E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Support. 

Regards,
Nabeel

On Feb 26, 2018, at 1:07 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:

In Singapore we had solid support to adopt draft-wijnandsxu-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding as a WG draft.

This is a call to the list for adoption. Please read and reply with/without support to this thread:


Thanks,
Greg
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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Suresh Krishnan's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 06:25:14 -0000 U3VyZXNoIC0NCg0KQXBvbG9naWVzIC0gSSBzZWVtIHRvIGhhdmUgbWlzc2VkIHJlc3BvbmRpbmcg dG8geW91ciBjb21tZW50cy4NClBsZWFzZSBzZWUgaW5saW5lLg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwg TWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IFN1cmVzaCBLcmlzaG5hbiBbbWFpbHRvOnN1cmVzaEBrYWxv b20uY29tXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDIxLCAyMDE4IDU6MzggUE0NCj4g VG86IFRoZSBJRVNHIDxpZXNnQGlldGYub3JnPg0KPiBDYzogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1iaWVyLWlzaXMt ZXh0ZW5zaW9uc0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgSG9vbWFuIEJpZGdvbGkNCj4gPGhvb21hbi5iaWRnb2xpQG5v a2lhLmNvbT47IGJpZXItY2hhaXJzQGlldGYub3JnOw0KPiBob29tYW4uYmlkZ29saUBub2tpYS5j b207IGJpZXJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogU3VyZXNoIEtyaXNobmFuJ3MgRGlzY3VzcyBv biBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWJpZXItaXNpcy1leHRlbnNpb25zLTA3OiAod2l0aA0KPiBESVNDVVNTIGFu ZCBDT01NRU5UKQ0KPiANCj4gU3VyZXNoIEtyaXNobmFuIGhhcyBlbnRlcmVkIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dp bmcgYmFsbG90IHBvc2l0aW9uIGZvcg0KPiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWJpZXItaXNpcy1leHRlbnNpb25z LTA3OiBEaXNjdXNzDQo+IA0KPiBXaGVuIHJlc3BvbmRpbmcsIHBsZWFzZSBrZWVwIHRoZSBzdWJq ZWN0IGxpbmUgaW50YWN0IGFuZCByZXBseSB0byBhbGwgZW1haWwNCj4gYWRkcmVzc2VzIGluY2x1 ZGVkIGluIHRoZSBUbyBhbmQgQ0MgbGluZXMuIChGZWVsIGZyZWUgdG8gY3V0IHRoaXMgaW50cm9k dWN0b3J5DQo+IHBhcmFncmFwaCwgaG93ZXZlci4pDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gUGxlYXNlIHJlZmVyIHRv IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2llc2cvc3RhdGVtZW50L2Rpc2N1c3MtY3JpdGVyaWEuaHRt bA0KPiBmb3IgbW9yZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBhYm91dCBJRVNHIERJU0NVU1MgYW5kIENPTU1FTlQg cG9zaXRpb25zLg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCwgYWxvbmcgd2l0aCBvdGhlciBiYWxs b3QgcG9zaXRpb25zLCBjYW4gYmUgZm91bmQgaGVyZToNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5p ZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1iaWVyLWlzaXMtZXh0ZW5zaW9ucy8NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAN Cj4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KPiBESVNDVVNTOg0KPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+IA0KPiAqIFNl Y3Rpb24gNi4yLiAgQklFUiBNUExTIEVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gc3ViLXN1Yi1UTFYNCj4gDQo+IFRo aXMgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHN0cmFpZ2h0Zm9yd2FyZCB0byBmaXggYnV0IGl0IGlzIG5vdCBjbGVhciBp ZiB0aGUgbGFiZWwgcmFuZ2UgaXMNCj4gYWxsb3dlZCB0byB3cmFwIGFyb3VuZCAob3ZlcmZsb3cp IG9yIG5vdCBwYXN0IHRoZSAyMCBiaXQgc3BhY2UuIGUuZy4gaXMgYQ0KPiBMYWJlbD0yXjIwLVgg d2l0aCBhIE1TSSBvZiBYIG9yIGxhcmdlciBsZWdhbD8gSSB3YXMgaG9waW5nIHRoYXQgUkZDODI5 NiB3b3VsZA0KPiBoYXZlIGNvdmVyZWQgdGhpcyBidXQgdW5mb3J0dW5hdGVseSBpdCBsZWF2ZXMg aXQgdG8gdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCAoYW5kIHRoZQ0KPiBPU1BGDQo+IGRvY3VtZW50KSB0byBzcGVj aWZ5Lg0KPiANCltMZXM6XSBJbiBWMTAgKGhvcGVmdWxseSBwb3N0ZWQgc29vbikgSSBoYXZlIGFk ZGVkIHRleHQgd2hpY2ggc3RhdGVzOg0KDQoiIElmICB0aGUgbGFiZWwgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB3aXRo IHRoZSBNYXhpbXVtIFNldCBJZGVudGlmaWVyIGV4Y2VlZHMgdGhlDQogICAgICAyMCBiaXQgcmFu Z2UgdGhlIHN1Yi1zdWItVExWIE1VU1QgYmUgaWdub3JlZC4iDQoNCj4gDQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0NCj4gQ09NTUVOVDoNCj4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KPiANCj4gKiBTZWN0aW9uIDQuMi4NCj4g DQo+ICJXaGVuIHRoZSBQcmVmaXggQXR0cmlidXRlcyBGbGFncyBzdWItVExWIGlzIHByZXNlbnQg TiBmbGFnIE1VU1QgYmUgc2V0LiINCj4gDQo+IEdpdmVuIHRoYXQgUkZDNzc5NCwgd2hpY2ggZGVm aW5lcyB0aGlzIHN1Yi1UTFYsIGNsZWFybHkgbWVudGlvbnMgdGhhdCBzZXR0aW5nDQo+IHRoaXMg ZmxhZyBpcyBwdXJlbHkgb3B0aW9uYWwsIGlzIHRoZXJlIGEgcmVhc29uIHRoaXMgaXMgbWFkZSBt YW5kYXRvcnk/IEkgZG8gbm90DQo+IHNlZSBhbnkgY2hlY2tpbmcgZm9yIHRoaXMgZmxhZyBpbiB0 aGUgYmVoYXZpb3IuDQo+IA0KDQpbTGVzOl0gQXMgcGVyIFJGQyA3Nzk0Og0KDQrigJxOLWZsYWc6 ICBOb2RlIEZsYWcgKEJpdCAyKQ0KICAgICAgU2V0IHdoZW4gdGhlIHByZWZpeCBpZGVudGlmaWVz IHRoZSBhZHZlcnRpc2luZyByb3V0ZXIsIGkuZS4sIHRoZQ0KICAgICAgcHJlZml4IGlzIGEgaG9z dCBwcmVmaXggYWR2ZXJ0aXNpbmcgYSBnbG9iYWxseSByZWFjaGFibGUgYWRkcmVzcw0KICAgICAg dHlwaWNhbGx5IGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgd2l0aCBhIGxvb3BiYWNrIGFkZHJlc3Mu4oCdDQoNCldoYXQg d2Ugd2FudCBmb3IgdXNlIHcgQklFUiBpcyBzdWNoIGFuIGFkZHJlc3MgKGkuZS4gc3RhYmxlKSDi gJMgbm90IHRpZWQgdG8gdGhlIHN0YXRlIG9mIGEgcGh5c2ljYWwgaW50ZXJmYWNlLg0KDQpJIGJl bGlldmUgdGhlIGV4cGxhbmF0aW9uIGluIFJGQyA3Nzk0IHNob3VsZCBiZSBzdWZmaWNpZW50Lg0K DQogICBMZXMNCg0K From nobody Mon Mar 12 07:02:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F395124B0A; 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Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:01:59 GMT Message-ID: <5AA68856.1020301@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 15:01:58 +0100 From: Peter Psenak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stig Venaas CC: BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions has wrong BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV length X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:02:03 -0000 Hi Stig, will fix in next version. thanks, Peter On 05/03/18 23:04 , Stig Venaas wrote: > Hi > > I just noticed that the draft says the length of the BIER MPLS > Encapsulation Sub-TLV is 4 octets! > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Type | Length | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Max SI | Label | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |BS Len | Reserved | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Type: 10 > > Length: 4 octets > > Stig > . > From nobody Mon Mar 12 09:33:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BE2124C27; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:33:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.75.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152087239082.10779.9574397028736598117@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:33:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-10.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:33:11 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER support via ISIS Authors : Les Ginsberg Tony Przygienda Sam Aldrin Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-10.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2018-03-12 Abstract: This document defines ISIS extensions to support multicast forwarding using the Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) architecture. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 12 09:41:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D0C12D965; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:41:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dFLDDDPL3i8u; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A439A12D77A; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:41:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=15032; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1520872905; x=1522082505; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3/Rsp6y2CKxLnIgoKLnkJkF8v3jW1TqEyLCd3bzuV6Y=; b=GSV5X5Jy9PCda75WaA/J27hqA/tZgSp33GtzVeLvr6fwbCGamlcgjCco P2yzFmvLoOuG1e9Zhc4DU2zhiDdCByf2ELiUum+f0oIygPgrrv+mie15n MxbIrXUmAlDf663pz915GFOmiOm1EcAIcIrwSGgn2/Pe8HTm0N9XXdOO6 o=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.47,462,1515456000"; d="scan'208";a="2569914" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 12 Mar 2018 16:41:43 +0000 Received: from [10.147.24.48] ([10.147.24.48]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w2CGff6v001701; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:41:42 GMT Message-ID: <5AA6ADC5.5020005@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:41:41 +0100 From: Peter Psenak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alia Atlas , Suresh Krishnan , Eric Rescorla CC: bier-chairs@ietf.org, Alvaro Retana , BIER WG , Reshad Rahman , The IESG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:41:49 -0000 Hi Alia, Suresh, Eric, sorry for late response, I was on PTO last week. Regarding Eric's comment, the securrity section has been updated in version 13, which has been published on Feb. 20th. Not sure why it still shows as unresolved. Regarding Suresh's comments: Section 2.2 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV This should be straightforward to fix but it is not clear if the label range is allowed to wrap around (overflow) or not past the 20 bit space. e.g. is a Label=2^20-X with a MSI of X or larger legal? I was hoping that RFC8296 would have covered this but unfortunately it leaves it to this document (and the IS-IS document) to specify. ==> I have added following sentence: "If the value of (Label + (Max SI)) is more than 1048575, the BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." Section 2.1. BIER Sub-TLV - No handling specified for the Reserved field in this sub-TLV. Assuming, set to zero and ignore on receipt? Please specify. ===> I have added the section about the reserved field. - I think there might be an IANA registry required for the "BIER Algorithm" to keep track of new algorithms (if any) ==> version 15 already says: "BAR: Single octet BIER specific algorithm used to calculate underlay paths to reach other BFRs. Values are allocated from the "BIER Algorithm Registry" which is defined in [I-D.ietf-bier-isis-extensions]." - typo: s/BRF/BFR/ ==> fixed * Section 2.2 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV "Max SI : A 1 octet field encoding the Maximum Set Identifier (section 1 of [RFC8296])" There is no definition for "Maximum Set Identifier" in RFC8296. Did you just mean "Set Identifier"? If not, can you clarify what you mean? ==> RFC8296 defines "Set Identifier". We are advertising the maximum value for the "Segment Identifier" for the for the BIER sub-domain. In other words we are advertising the number of "Set Identifier" used in BIER sub-domain. If you all agree, I can update the drat as above and publish next Monday. thanks, Peter On 09/03/18 22:48 , Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi Peter, > > I do not see discussion with Eric or Suresh on their Discusses. > This draft also has Normative References to RFC 8279 and RFC 8296. > > The Discusses need to be resolved. The normative reference (where the > Status Update > was deferred), means that when this is approved, it'll have to have an > RFC Editor Note to > hold it until that Status Update is approved (or bis versions are > issued, if necessary). > > I do not know if resolving of the Discusses will happen by Weds of > IETF. If not, then the > draft will not have a Yes ballot (unless Alvaro changes his) and may > need to go back through > IESG Evaluation. > > Regards, > Alia > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: > > OK, > > > draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-09 > > > > limited last call finished now. I see the document moved to publication. > > On OSPF I still see Suresh & Eric in discuss. Peter, did we address > those comments ? > > thanks > > --- tony > > > > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: > > ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem addressed > adequatly. Outstanding points I don't think need addressing further > > * invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity ospf vs isis > signalling. That's really a defect of RFC8279 where we should > have been stricter with language. Not a problem of IGP drafts > * registry: I think that will be cleaned up during publication > process, i.e. registry created and references taken out of the > drafts > * no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given > RFC8279 is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this > restriction. The length clause would not change any other > considerations anyway such as behavior when 2 routers advertise > the same prefix in an area with conflicting BIER information > which is addressed in the draft already. > > Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all > following procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to > IESG for publication ... > > Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call limited to changes > in versions -14 and -15 > > thanks > > --- tony > > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana > > wrote: > > Peter: > > Hi! Thanks for addressing my comment! > > Alvaro. > > On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak > (ppsenak@cisco.com ) wrote: > >> Hi Alvaro, >> >> please see inline (##PP): >> >> On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote: >> > On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com >> > >) wrote: >> > >> > Peter: >> > >> > Hi! >> > >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > COMMENT: >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > >> >> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some work: >> >> > >> >> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the 128-255 range? >> >> >> >> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored" Do we nee to say >> >> the same here again? >> > >> > Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in the >> > LSAs when used for MTR. >> > >> > What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV? >> > >> > For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with one and only >> > one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT-ID is not >> > known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check? >> >> ##PP >> ok, I have added the following statement: >> >> "If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in >> [RFC4915], the >> BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured with a valid BFR-id, the value >> >> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279]." I looked in rfc8279 for >> >> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this instead: "The value 0 is not a >> >> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "invalid" is the same as "not >> >> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent. >> >> >> >> would you agree with: >> >> >> >> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as illegal in >> >> [RFC8279]. >> > >> > Yeah, that’s fine. >> > >> > Side comment: it’s a shame that rfc8279 chose “illegal†to describe a >> > value that can be used. >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advertising duplicates MUST be >> >> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id." How are BFRs that >> >> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated? >> >> >> >> what about: >> >> >> >> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id" >> > >> > Sorry…the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? What needs to be >> > done by the receiver? >> >> rfc8279, section 5 says: >> >> " If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both >> advertised the >> same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an error. >> Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A is >> functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value >> N in >> the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been >> assigned to the >> given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the >> packet needs >> to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C. >> >> This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicast >> traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioning >> error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them >> receive each other's traffic. >> >> >> ... >> >> If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particular >> sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST >> interpret >> that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR >> does not have >> a BFR-id in that sub-domain." >> >> >> So I rewrote the section as: >> >> "All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid >> BFR-IDs for a >> given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is >> detected by the >> BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279]." >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value not supported in >> >> > rfc8296? >> >> >> >> what about: >> >> >> >> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match any of the >> >> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsulation >> >> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." >> > >> > ok >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs advertised by the >> >> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, the advertising router >> >> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-TLVs." If an overlap >> >> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising the overlap) are >> >> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right? The text is not >> >> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the BFR that advertised >> >> > last (and resulted in the detection happening). >> >> >> >> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advertises the >> >> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs it >> >> advertises. >> > >> > Yeah…sorry…overlooked that first part. >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What is a "valid" label? >> >> >> >> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we specified earlier >> >> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost bits represent >> >> the first label" and any value should be fine. >> > >> > Well…there are some reserved values… rfc3032… >> > >> >> How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have >> been defined in >> rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. >> I have >> removed the following text: >> >> "All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER >> sub-TLV MUST be >> ignored. >> >> thanks, >> Peter >> >> > >> > ... >> > >> >> > >> >> > (2) Security Considerations >> >> > >> >> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an attacker could simply >> >> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges and have a significant >> >> > impact on the network. >> >> >> >> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and existing >> >> text covers that: >> >> >> >> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to one >> >> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, >> >> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in [RFC7474] >> >> SHOULD be used." >> > >> > I’ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks this is ok. >> > >> >> > >> >> > (3) IANA Considerations >> >> > >> >> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is a Sub-TLV of the BIER >> >> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is allocated from the OSPF >> >> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new registry for sub-TLVs for >> >> > the BIER Sub-TLV. >> >> >> >> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines sub-TLVs >> >> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs". >> >> >> >> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do so :) >> > >> > Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in the >> > registry itself. >> > >> > We’re good then. >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > Alvaro. >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > From nobody Mon Mar 12 09:50:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F550126B72; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:49:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w5sxwC9bE8I1; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 761D8127909; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 09:49:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=16407; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1520873390; x=1522082990; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V9GA/+MxBsolL2kpWq4WpqdMOjmPOYGeoF1xEcxPiOw=; b=Ud3d6f+MJm1dGFm5jJZex0zYs4hVxQ7kizGOGbcebASvvdMU6wbCrTzE T/3rnWmPPCOD9QeSONhIoplxVFwooSfZI0zJwHAOg5/pvWarYBkPZ7WQJ cix8kaR7Of/o0UoWtOxq2oSnX7xrOfV9dPLIqke+g+RaqNlV79zCnBtXM w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.47,462,1515456000"; d="scan'208";a="2521652" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 12 Mar 2018 16:49:47 +0000 Received: from [10.147.24.48] ([10.147.24.48]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w2CGnkl7007128; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:49:47 GMT Message-ID: <5AA6AFAA.2040600@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:49:46 +0100 From: Peter Psenak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alia Atlas , Eric Rescorla , Suresh Krishnan CC: "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" , BIER WG , The IESG , Alvaro Retana References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:49:57 -0000 Resending with correct Suresh's address. Hi Alia, Suresh, Eric, sorry for late response, I was on PTO last week. Regarding Eric's comment, the securrity section has been updated in version 13, which has been published on Feb. 20th. Not sure why it still shows as unresolved. Regarding Suresh's comments: Section 2.2 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV This should be straightforward to fix but it is not clear if the label range is allowed to wrap around (overflow) or not past the 20 bit space. e.g. is a Label=2^20-X with a MSI of X or larger legal? I was hoping that RFC8296 would have covered this but unfortunately it leaves it to this document (and the IS-IS document) to specify. ==> I have added following sentence: "If the value of (Label + (Max SI)) is more than 1048575, the BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." Section 2.1. BIER Sub-TLV - No handling specified for the Reserved field in this sub-TLV. Assuming, set to zero and ignore on receipt? Please specify. ===> I have added the section about the reserved field. - I think there might be an IANA registry required for the "BIER Algorithm" to keep track of new algorithms (if any) ==> version 15 already says: "BAR: Single octet BIER specific algorithm used to calculate underlay paths to reach other BFRs. Values are allocated from the "BIER Algorithm Registry" which is defined in [I-D.ietf-bier-isis-extensions]." - typo: s/BRF/BFR/ ==> fixed * Section 2.2 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV "Max SI : A 1 octet field encoding the Maximum Set Identifier (section 1 of [RFC8296])" There is no definition for "Maximum Set Identifier" in RFC8296. Did you just mean "Set Identifier"? If not, can you clarify what you mean? ==> RFC8296 defines "Set Identifier". We are advertising the maximum value for the "Segment Identifier" for the for the BIER sub-domain. In other words we are advertising the number of "Set Identifier" used in BIER sub-domain. If you all agree, I can update the drat as above and publish next Monday. thanks, Peter On 10/03/18 01:56 , Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Alia, > > Murphy’s law of draft progression timing, Peter has been on PTO for the > last week (skiiing I believe but not positive). I’m sure he will respond > shortly. > > Thank, > > Acee > > *From: *BIER on behalf of Alia Atlas > > *Date: *Friday, March 9, 2018 at 4:48 PM > *To: *"Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" , > "bier-chairs@ietf.org" > *Cc: *"Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , > "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" > , BIER WG > , The IESG , Alvaro Retana > > *Subject: *Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on > draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) > > Hi Peter, > > I do not see discussion with Eric or Suresh on their Discusses. > > This draft also has Normative References to RFC 8279 and RFC 8296. > > The Discusses need to be resolved. The normative reference (where the > Status Update > > was deferred), means that when this is approved, it'll have to have an > RFC Editor Note to > > hold it until that Status Update is approved (or bis versions are > issued, if necessary). > > > I do not know if resolving of the Discusses will happen by Weds of > IETF. If not, then the > > draft will not have a Yes ballot (unless Alvaro changes his) and may > need to go back through > > IESG Evaluation. > > Regards, > > Alia > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Tony Przygienda > > wrote: > > OK, > > > > draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-09 > > limited last call finished now. I see the document moved to publication. > > On OSPF I still see Suresh & Eric in discuss. Peter, did we address > those comments ? > > thanks > > --- tony > > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Tony Przygienda > > wrote: > > ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem addressed > adequatly. Outstanding points I don't think need addressing further > > * invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity ospf vs isis > signalling. That's really a defect of RFC8279 where we should > have been stricter with language. Not a problem of IGP drafts > > * registry: I think that will be cleaned up during publication > process, i.e. registry created and references taken out of the > drafts > > * no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given > RFC8279 is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this > restriction. The length clause would not change any other > considerations anyway such as behavior when 2 routers advertise > the same prefix in an area with conflicting BIER information > which is addressed in the draft already. > > Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all > following procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to > IESG for publication ... > > Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call limited to changes > in versions -14 and -15 > > thanks > > --- tony > > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana > > wrote: > > Peter: > > Hi! Thanks for addressing my comment! > > Alvaro. > > On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak > (ppsenak@cisco.com) wrote: > > Hi Alvaro, > > please see inline (##PP): > > On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote: > > On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com > > >) wrote: > > > > Peter: > > > > Hi! > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > COMMENT: > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some work: > >> > > >> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the 128-255 range? > >> > >> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored" Do we nee to say > >> the same here again? > > > > Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the value in the > > LSAs when used for MTR. > > > > What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV? > > > > For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated with one and only > > one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If the MT-ID is not > > known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce this check? > > ##PP > ok, I have added the following statement: > > "If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified > in [RFC4915], the > BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." > > > > > > >> > > >> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured with a valid BFR-id, the value > >> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279]." I looked in rfc8279 for > >> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this instead: "The value 0 is not a > >> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "invalid" is the same as "not > >> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent. > >> > >> would you agree with: > >> > >> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined as illegal in > >> [RFC8279]. > > > > Yeah, that’s fine. > > > > Side comment: it’s a shame that rfc8279 chose “illegal†to describe a > > value that can be used. > > > > > >> > > >> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs advertising duplicates MUST be > >> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id." How are BFRs that > >> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated? > >> > >> what about: > >> > >> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id" > > > > Sorry…the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then what? What needs to be > > done by the receiver? > > rfc8279, section 5 says: > > " If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both > advertised the > same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an > error. > Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A is > functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id > value N in > the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been > assigned to the > given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the > packet needs > to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C. > > This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive > multicast > traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the > provisioning > error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them > receive each other's traffic. > > > ... > > If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a > particular > sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST > interpret > that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR > does not have > a BFR-id in that sub-domain." > > > So I rewrote the section as: > > "All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid > BFR-IDs for a > given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is > detected by the > BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of > [RFC8279]." > > > > > > > >> > > >> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a value not supported in > >> > rfc8296? > >> > >> what about: > >> > >> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match any of the > >> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsulation > >> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." > > > > ok > > > > > >> > > >> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs advertised by the > >> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, the advertising router > >> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER sub-TLVs." If an overlap > >> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertising the overlap) are > >> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, right? The text is not > >> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just the BFR that advertised > >> > last (and resulted in the detection happening). > >> > >> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR advertises the > >> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs it > >> advertises. > > > > Yeah…sorry…overlooked that first part. > > > > > >> > > >> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What is a "valid" label? > >> > >> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we specified earlier > >> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost bits represent > >> the first label" and any value should be fine. > > > > Well…there are some reserved values… rfc3032… > > > > How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have > been defined in > rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft > really. I have > removed the following text: > > "All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER > sub-TLV MUST be > ignored. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > ... > > > >> > > >> > (2) Security Considerations > >> > > >> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an attacker could simply > >> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges and have a significant > >> > impact on the network. > >> > >> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication and existing > >> text covers that: > >> > >> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to one > >> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, > >> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in [RFC7474] > >> SHOULD be used." > > > > I’ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he thinks this is ok. > > > >> > > >> > (3) IANA Considerations > >> > > >> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is a Sub-TLV of the BIER > >> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is allocated from the OSPF > >> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new registry for sub-TLVs for > >> > the BIER Sub-TLV. > >> > >> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines sub-TLVs > >> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs". > >> > >> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford to do so :) > > > > Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in the > > registry itself. > > > > We’re good then. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Alvaro. > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > From nobody Mon Mar 12 10:25:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C782126579; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YFNsVkUjgh-0; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x235.google.com (mail-ot0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 553FB1200C5; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 95so16072299ote.5; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:24:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hiALhrYh9TDKUtQs7cv4RE8XdvuWPI4RCTT1lfyETKY=; b=Y0O37D5bjqQKQRDKjTCNuSKnMfBhtI4iH6KXK9c6FpqwzA8Q9JnGrG4u04ADYErGN4 msxHWi6t+g7PbKZczvEs/GHdeeyi5zPa0ADgDUO59ofdGejxRJ51sk8fauxRsPBmvAT3 wZfBiNjVy8yUrnvDhRbWSDRw+igBIzDGfjo+xCDbiMzNFB8z9b548hvb1Q8rha4JMi0W CnDubYMN8u8WxsVWL/JVLpZdcbJFKyrTSSPD1tsFP+HW1S6WTUD+bzHcfgURpsdytxW5 Yslb5TQsmeQpyQfR8QFRommSwTY8wobPPGvxPBfA9LdGMYGoieo7IB0PMO1TjgQVDS07 X5jQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hiALhrYh9TDKUtQs7cv4RE8XdvuWPI4RCTT1lfyETKY=; b=WNXkRrVlM/khZvZ/3Sa/Qk9EkENez9nAQrJ0tEz/oAHV+QeppQMDMtAWtKB9XtZfs4 sSNg5LWDqcN1EAQ/Poc42yVqBuveQlPzsg4LI1y4KobMS9QHXTGJlSbu3e1qvFSGoJPi 0SpIov55wf4q9q1sKDzLkosCSERDcl9+1QIYlmkW3LQsPDBNGA8/ixycHKOR0pBwXQys Jg/XIFSDAotlLU/K6hbfbh3V0DpginBRa5lXg7qP8GG3ww8R1oYeIs1XTGu+X9Mu7MeK LMM+Fc7QHKsyrX6nu+U6AKtjVS4P+GGHO6S8Rb1jbhATOBrWTrHVn0Z0dBl2jrQvTL3d ZhRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Hpq+doICz81VldJOFJsTOYp5/IO80CMKPhwswr08ldmDLe/LRx NYBLN7faYZW88J25LXFxGRH+4ornKwFwjPrTIdU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuCCiT5A+j/Zo+ALGfTf7m5dXeHF/f8Jr7psFh6pHb9ouujwUg2x7ChInuUEurBhQgNNrij5VBYkFrY2CudX6A= X-Received: by 10.157.7.71 with SMTP id 65mr5709693ote.219.1520875498494; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:24:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:4439:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:24:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5AA6ADC5.5020005@cisco.com> References: <151930953951.8224.17290376865607954822.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5A8EF662.4020304@cisco.com> <5A90143E.7020000@cisco.com> <5AA6ADC5.5020005@cisco.com> From: Alia Atlas Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 13:24:57 -0400 Message-ID: To: Peter Psenak Cc: Suresh Krishnan , Eric Rescorla , bier-chairs@ietf.org, Alvaro Retana , BIER WG , Reshad Rahman , The IESG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ccac2d5de7605673a6b19" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-14: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:25:02 -0000 --001a113ccac2d5de7605673a6b19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter, I'm happy to approve getting this posted before Monday at IETF. I'd like to get these drafts off to the RFC Editor ASAP. Thanks, Alia On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Peter Psenak wrote: > Hi Alia, Suresh, Eric, > > sorry for late response, I was on PTO last week. > > Regarding Eric's comment, the securrity section has been updated in > version 13, which has been published on Feb. 20th. Not sure why it still > shows as unresolved. > > > > Regarding Suresh's comments: > > Section 2.2 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV > > This should be straightforward to fix but it is not clear if the label > range is allowed to wrap around (overflow) or not past the 20 bit space. > e.g. is a Label=3D2^20-X with a MSI of X or larger legal? I was hoping th= at > RFC8296 would have covered this but unfortunately it leaves it to this > document (and the IS-IS document) to specify. > > =3D=3D> I have added following sentence: > > "If the value of (Label + (Max SI)) is more than 1048575, the BIER MPLS > Encapsulation Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." > > > Section 2.1. BIER Sub-TLV > > - No handling specified for the Reserved field in this sub-TLV. Assuming, > set to zero and ignore on receipt? Please specify. > > =3D=3D=3D> I have added the section about the reserved field. > > - I think there might be an IANA registry required for the "BIER > Algorithm" to keep track of new algorithms (if any) > > =3D=3D> version 15 already says: > > "BAR: Single octet BIER specific algorithm used to calculate > underlay paths to reach other BFRs. Values are allocated from the > "BIER Algorithm Registry" which is defined in > [I-D.ietf-bier-isis-extensions]." > > - typo: s/BRF/BFR/ > > =3D=3D> fixed > > * Section 2.2 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV > > "Max SI : A 1 octet field encoding the Maximum Set Identifier (section 1 > of [RFC8296])" > > There is no definition for "Maximum Set Identifier" in RFC8296. Did you > just mean "Set Identifier"? If not, can you clarify what you mean? > > =3D=3D> RFC8296 defines "Set Identifier". We are advertising the maximum = value > for the "Segment Identifier" for the for the BIER sub-domain. In other > words we are advertising the number of "Set Identifier" used in BIER > sub-domain. > > > > > If you all agree, I can update the drat as above and publish next Monday. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > On 09/03/18 22:48 , Alia Atlas wrote: > >> Hi Peter, >> >> I do not see discussion with Eric or Suresh on their Discusses. >> This draft also has Normative References to RFC 8279 and RFC 8296. >> >> The Discusses need to be resolved. The normative reference (where the >> Status Update >> was deferred), means that when this is approved, it'll have to have an >> RFC Editor Note to >> hold it until that Status Update is approved (or bis versions are >> issued, if necessary). >> >> I do not know if resolving of the Discusses will happen by Weds of >> IETF. If not, then the >> draft will not have a Yes ballot (unless Alvaro changes his) and may >> need to go back through >> IESG Evaluation. >> >> Regards, >> Alia >> >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Tony Przygienda > > wrote: >> >> OK, >> >> >> draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-09 >> >> >> >> limited last call finished now. I see the document moved to >> publication. >> >> On OSPF I still see Suresh & Eric in discuss. Peter, did we address >> those comments ? >> >> thanks >> >> --- tony >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Tony Przygienda > > wrote: >> >> ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem addressed >> adequatly. Outstanding points I don't think need addressing >> further >> >> * invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity ospf vs isis >> signalling. That's really a defect of RFC8279 where we should >> have been stricter with language. Not a problem of IGP drafts >> * registry: I think that will be cleaned up during publication >> process, i.e. registry created and references taken out of the >> drafts >> * no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which IMO is fine given >> RFC8279 is not mandating it and OSPF works fine without this >> restriction. The length clause would not change any other >> considerations anyway such as behavior when 2 routers advertise >> the same prefix in an area with conflicting BIER information >> which is addressed in the draft already. >> >> Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just to have it all >> following procedure the way ISIS draft did and then fwd' back to >> IESG for publication ... >> >> Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call limited to changes >> in versions -14 and -15 >> >> thanks >> >> --- tony >> >> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana >> > wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Hi! Thanks for addressing my comment! >> >> Alvaro. >> >> On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 AM, Peter Psenak >> (ppsenak@cisco.com ) wrote: >> >> Hi Alvaro, >>> >>> please see inline (##PP): >>> >>> On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana wrote: >>> > On February 22, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM, Peter Psenak ( >>> ppsenak@cisco.com >>> > >) >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Peter: >>> > >>> > Hi! >>> > >>> >> > ------------------------------ >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> >> > COMMENT: >>> >> > ------------------------------ >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> >> > >>> >> > (1) The specification of the sub-TLVs still needs some >>> work: >>> >> > >>> >> > - MT-ID: What should a receiver do if the MT-ID is in >>> the 128-255 range? >>> >> >>> >> rfc4915 says these are "Invalid and SHOULD be ignored" D= o >>> we nee to say >>> >> the same here again? >>> > >>> > Yes. rfc4915 refers specifically to what to do with the >>> value in the >>> > LSAs when used for MTR. >>> > >>> > What does it mean to ignore the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV= ? >>> > >>> > For example... "Each BFR sub-domain MUST be associated >>> with one and only >>> > one OSPF topology that is identified by the MT-ID." If th= e >>> MT-ID is not >>> > known (because it is ignored), then how can we enforce >>> this check? >>> >>> ##PP >>> ok, I have added the following statement: >>> >>> "If the MT-ID value is outside of the values specified in >>> [RFC4915], the >>> BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." >>> >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - "BFR-id...If the BFR is not locally configured with = a >>> valid BFR-id, the value >>> >> > of this field is set to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279]." >>> I looked in rfc8279 for >>> >> > the text about "invalid BFR-id", but found this >>> instead: "The value 0 is not a >>> >> > legal BFR-id." I assume that in this case "invalid" is >>> the same as "not >>> >> > legal". It would be nice to be consistent. >>> >> >>> >> would you agree with: >>> >> >>> >> "the value of this field is set to 0, which is defined a= s >>> illegal in >>> >> [RFC8279]. >>> > >>> > Yeah, that=E2=80=99s fine. >>> > >>> > Side comment: it=E2=80=99s a shame that rfc8279 chose =E2= =80=9Cillegal=E2=80=9D to >>> describe a >>> > value that can be used. >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - "When such duplication is detected all BFRs >>> advertising duplicates MUST be >>> >> > treated as if they did not advertise a valid BFR-id." >>> How are BFRs that >>> >> > advertise an invalid BFR-id treated? >>> >> >>> >> what about: >>> >> >>> >> "as if they did not advertise a legal BFR-id" >>> > >>> > Sorry=E2=80=A6the question is: if the BFD-id is 0, then w= hat? >>> What needs to be >>> > done by the receiver? >>> >>> rfc8279, section 5 says: >>> >>> " If BFR-A determines that BFR-B and BFR-C have both >>> advertised the >>> same BFR-id for the same sub-domain, BFR-A MUST log an erro= r. >>> Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id is "N". When BFR-A is >>> functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NOT encode the BFR-id value >>> N in >>> the BIER encapsulation of any packet that has been >>> assigned to the >>> given sub-domain, even if it has determined that the >>> packet needs >>> to be received by BFR-B and/or BFR-C. >>> >>> This will mean that BFR-B and BFR-C cannot receive multicas= t >>> traffic at all in the given sub-domain until the provisioni= ng >>> error is fixed. However, that is preferable to having them >>> receive each other's traffic. >>> >>> >>> ... >>> >>> If a BFR advertises that it has a BFR-id of 0 in a particul= ar >>> sub-domain, other BFRs receiving the advertisement MUST >>> interpret >>> that advertisement as meaning that the advertising BFR >>> does not have >>> a BFR-id in that sub-domain." >>> >>> >>> So I rewrote the section as: >>> >>> "All BFRs MUST detect advertisement of duplicate valid >>> BFR-IDs for a >>> given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. When such duplication is >>> detected by the >>> BFR, it MUST behave as described in section 5 of [RFC8279].= " >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - What should a receiver do if the BSL is set to a >>> value not supported in >>> >> > rfc8296? >>> >> >>> >> what about: >>> >> >>> >> "If the BS length is set to a value that does not match >>> any of the >>> >> allowed values specified in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS >>> Encapsulation >>> >> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored." >>> > >>> > ok >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - "Label ranges within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation >>> Sub-TLVs advertised by the >>> >> > same BFR MUST NOT overlap. If the overlap is detected, >>> the advertising router >>> >> > MUST be treated as if it did not advertise any BIER >>> sub-TLVs." If an overlap >>> >> > is detected, the result is that *all* BFRs (advertisin= g >>> the overlap) are >>> >> > treated as if the BIER sub-TLV was not advertised, >>> right? The text is not >>> >> > clear as to whether the result applies to all or just >>> the BFR that advertised >>> >> > last (and resulted in the detection happening). >>> >> >>> >> above paragraph talks about the case where a single BFR >>> advertises the >>> >> overlapping label ranges in multiple BIER MPLS >>> Encapsulation Sub-TLVs it >>> >> advertises. >>> > >>> > Yeah=E2=80=A6sorry=E2=80=A6overlooked that first part. >>> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > - "All advertised labels MUST be valid..." What is a >>> "valid" label? >>> >> >>> >> I'm tempted to get rid of the above statement, as we >>> specified earlier >>> >> that the label "A 3 octet field, where the 20 rightmost >>> bits represent >>> >> the first label" and any value should be fine. >>> > >>> > Well=E2=80=A6there are some reserved values=E2=80=A6 rfc3= 032=E2=80=A6 >>> > >>> >>> How to deal with the reserved labels by BIER should have >>> been defined in >>> rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IGP extension draft really. >>> I have >>> removed the following text: >>> >>> "All advertised labels MUST be valid, otherwise the BIER >>> sub-TLV MUST be >>> ignored. >>> >>> thanks, >>> Peter >>> >>> > >>> > ... >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > (2) Security Considerations >>> >> > >>> >> > - I support Eric's DISCUSS. It seems to me that an >>> attacker could simply >>> >> > advertise duplicate BFR-IDs or overlapping label range= s >>> and have a significant >>> >> > impact on the network. >>> >> >>> >> that should be taken care of by protocol authentication >>> and existing >>> >> text covers that: >>> >> >>> >> "There can be deployments where potential attackers have >>> access to one >>> >> or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these >>> deployments, >>> >> stronger authentication mechanisms such as those >>> specified in [RFC7474] >>> >> SHOULD be used." >>> > >>> > I=E2=80=99ll let Eric handle the DISCUSS and whether he t= hinks >>> this is ok. >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > (3) IANA Considerations >>> >> > >>> >> > Section 2.2: "The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is a >>> Sub-TLV of the BIER >>> >> > Sub-TLV." However, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is >>> allocated from the OSPF >>> >> > Extended Prefix sub-TLV registry...and not from a new >>> registry for sub-TLVs for >>> >> > the BIER Sub-TLV. >>> >> >>> >> The OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "define= s >>> sub-TLVs >>> >> at any level of nesting for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs"= . >>> >> >>> >> We have 16 bits for TLV type in OSPF, so we can afford t= o >>> do so :) >>> > >>> > Ah, I see. That text is buried in rfc7684, and not >>> reflected in the >>> > registry itself. >>> > >>> > We=E2=80=99re good then. >>> > >>> > Thanks! >>> > >>> > Alvaro. >>> > >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> >> >> > --001a113ccac2d5de7605673a6b19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peter,

I'm happy to approve getting= this posted before Monday at IETF.
I'd like to get these dra= fts off to the RFC Editor ASAP.

Thanks,
= Alia

O= n Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Alia, Suresh, Eric,

sorry for late response, I was on PTO last week.

Regarding Eric's comment, the securrity section has been updated in ver= sion 13, which has been published on Feb. 20th. Not sure why it still shows= as unresolved.



Regarding Suresh's comments:

Section 2.2 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV

This should be straightforward to fix but it is not clear if the label rang= e is allowed to wrap around (overflow) or not past the 20 bit space. e.g. i= s a Label=3D2^20-X with a MSI of X or larger legal? I was hoping that RFC82= 96 would have covered this but unfortunately it leaves it to this document = (and the IS-IS document) to specify.

=3D=3D> I have added following sentence:

"If the value of (Label + (Max SI)) is more than 1048575, the BIER MPL= S Encapsulation Sub-TLV MUST be ignored."


Section 2.1. BIER Sub-TLV

- No handling specified for the Reserved field in this sub-TLV. Assuming, s= et to zero and ignore on receipt? Please specify.

=3D=3D=3D> I have added the section about the reserved field.

- I think there might be an IANA registry required for the "BIER Algor= ithm" to keep track of new algorithms (if any)

=3D=3D> version 15 already says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"BAR: Single octet BIER specific algorithm used to= calculate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 underlay paths to reach other BFRs.=C2=A0 Values are a= llocated from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "BIER Algorithm Registry" which is defined i= n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-bier-isis-extensions]."

- typo: s/BRF/BFR/

=3D=3D> fixed

* Section 2.2 BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV

"Max SI : A 1 octet field encoding the Maximum Set Identifier (section= 1 of [RFC8296])"

There is no definition for "Maximum Set Identifier" in RFC8296. D= id you just mean "Set Identifier"? If not, can you clarify what y= ou mean?

=3D=3D> RFC8296 defines "Set Identifier". We are advertising t= he maximum value for the "Segment Identifier" for the for the BIE= R sub-domain. In other words we are advertising the number of "Set Ide= ntifier" used in BIER sub-domain.




If you all agree, I can update the drat as above and publish next Monday.
thanks,
Peter




On 09/03/18 22:48 , Alia Atlas wrote:
Hi Peter,

I do not see discussion with Eric or Suresh on their Discusses.
This draft also has Normative References to RFC 8279 and RFC 8296.

The Discusses need to be resolved.=C2=A0 The normative reference (where the=
Status Update
was deferred), means that when this is approved, it'll have to have an<= br> RFC Editor Note to
hold it until that Status Update is approved (or bis versions are
issued, if necessary).

I do not know if resolving of the Discusses will happen by Weds of
IETF.=C2=A0 If not, then the
draft will not have a Yes ballot (unless Alvaro changes his) and may
need to go back through
IESG Evaluation.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com
 <mailto:tonysie= tf@gmail.com>> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 OK,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-09
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://datatrack= er.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions/>


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 limited last call finished now. I see the document moved to p= ublication.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On OSPF I still see Suresh & Eric in discuss. Peter, did = we address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 those comments ?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 thanks

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --- tony



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ok, I went over it once more, all issues seem a= ddressed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 adequatly. Outstanding points I don't think= need addressing further

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * invalid vs. illegal BFR-id language disparity= ospf vs isis
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signalling. That's really a defect of RFC82= 79 where we should
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 have been stricter with language. Not a problem= of IGP drafts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * registry: I think that will be cleaned up dur= ing publication
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 process, i.e. registry created and references t= aken out of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 drafts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * no /32 /128 length restriction in OSPF which = IMO is fine given
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC8279 is not mandating it and OSPF works fine= without this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 restriction. The length clause would not change= any other
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 considerations anyway such as behavior when 2 r= outers advertise
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the same prefix in an area with conflicting BIE= R information
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is addressed in the draft already.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alvaro, I issue here a 7 days last WG LC just t= o have it all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 following procedure the way ISIS draft did and = then fwd' back to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IESG for publication ...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Everyone, this constitutes a 7 days last call l= imited to changes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in versions -14 and -15

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 thanks

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --- tony

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Retana<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <aretana.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com>= > wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Peter:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi!=C2=A0 Thanks for addressing m= y comment!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alvaro.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On February 23, 2018 at 8:16:49 A= M, Peter Psenak
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>) wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Alvaro,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 please see inline (##PP):

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 23/02/18 00:14 , Alvaro Retana= wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On February 22, 2018 at 11:5= 7:08 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>= ;>) wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Peter:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi!
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > -------------------= ---------------------------------------------------
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > COMMENT:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > -------------------= ---------------------------------------------------
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > (1) The specificati= on of the sub-TLVs still needs some work:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > - MT-ID: What shoul= d a receiver do if the MT-ID is in the 128-255 range?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> rfc4915 says these are &= quot;Invalid and SHOULD be ignored" Do we nee to say
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the same here again?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yes.=C2=A0 rfc4915 refers sp= ecifically to what to do with the value in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > LSAs when used for MTR.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > What does it mean to ignore = the MT-ID in the BIER Sub-TLV?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > For example... "Each BF= R sub-domain MUST be associated with one and only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > one OSPF topology that is id= entified by the MT-ID." If the MT-ID is not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > known (because it is ignored= ), then how can we enforce this check?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ##PP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ok, I have added the following st= atement:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "If the MT-ID value is outsi= de of the values specified in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC4915], the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER Sub-TLV MUST be ignored.&quo= t;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > - "BFR-id...If= the BFR is not locally configured with a valid BFR-id, the value
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > of this field is se= t to invalid BFR-id per [RFC8279]." I looked in rfc8279 for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > the text about &quo= t;invalid BFR-id", but found this instead: "The value 0 is not a<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > legal BFR-id."= I assume that in this case "invalid" is the same as "not =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > legal". It wou= ld be nice to be consistent.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> would you agree with: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> "the value of this = field is set to 0, which is defined as illegal in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> [RFC8279].
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yeah, that=E2=80=99s fine. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Side comment: it=E2=80=99s a= shame that rfc8279 chose =E2=80=9Cillegal=E2=80=9D to describe a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > value that can be used.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > - "When such d= uplication is detected all BFRs advertising duplicates MUST be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > treated as if they = did not advertise a valid BFR-id." How are BFRs that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > advertise an invali= d BFR-id treated?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> what about:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> "as if they did not= advertise a legal BFR-id"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sorry=E2=80=A6the question i= s: if the BFD-id is 0, then what?=C2=A0 What needs to be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > done by the receiver?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rfc8279, section 5 says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 " If BFR-A determines that B= FR-B and BFR-C have both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 advertised the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 same BFR-id for the same sub-doma= in, BFR-A MUST log an error.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Suppose that the duplicate BFR-id= is "N". When BFR-A is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functioning as a BFIR, it MUST NO= T encode the BFR-id value
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 N in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the BIER encapsulation of any pac= ket that has been
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 assigned to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 given sub-domain, even if it has = determined that the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet needs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to be received by BFR-B and/or BF= R-C.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This will mean that BFR-B and BFR= -C cannot receive multicast
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic at all in the given sub-d= omain until the provisioning
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 error is fixed. However, that is = preferable to having them
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 receive each other's traffic.=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If a BFR advertises that it has a= BFR-id of 0 in a particular
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-domain, other BFRs receiving = the advertisement MUST
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 interpret
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that advertisement as meaning tha= t the advertising BFR
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 does not have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a BFR-id in that sub-domain."= ;


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 So I rewrote the section as:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "All BFRs MUST detect advert= isement of duplicate valid
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFR-IDs for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 given MT-ID and Sub-domain-ID. Wh= en such duplication is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 detected by the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BFR, it MUST behave as described = in section 5 of [RFC8279]."


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > - What should a rec= eiver do if the BSL is set to a value not supported in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > rfc8296?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> what about:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> "If the BS length i= s set to a value that does not match any of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> allowed values specified= in [RFC8296], the BIER MPLS Encapsulation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Sub-TLV MUST be ignored.= "
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ok
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > - "Label range= s within all BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs advertised by the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > same BFR MUST NOT o= verlap. If the overlap is detected, the advertising router
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > MUST be treated as = if it did not advertise any BIER sub-TLVs." If an overlap
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > is detected, the re= sult is that *all* BFRs (advertising the overlap) are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > treated as if the B= IER sub-TLV was not advertised, right? The text is not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > clear as to whether= the result applies to all or just the BFR that advertised
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > last (and resulted = in the detection happening).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> above paragraph talks ab= out the case where a single BFR advertises the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> overlapping label ranges= in multiple BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLVs it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> advertises.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yeah=E2=80=A6sorry=E2=80=A6o= verlooked that first part.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > - "All adverti= sed labels MUST be valid..." What is a "valid" label?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I'm tempted to get r= id of the above statement, as we specified earlier
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> that the label "A 3= octet field, where the 20 rightmost bits represent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the first label" an= d any value should be fine.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Well=E2=80=A6there are some = reserved values=E2=80=A6 rfc3032=E2=80=A6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 How to deal with the reserved lab= els by BIER should have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 been defined in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rfc8296 or rfc8279, not in the IG= P extension draft really.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 removed the following text:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "All advertised labels MUST = be valid, otherwise the BIER
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-TLV MUST be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ignored.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 thanks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Peter

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > (2) Security Consid= erations
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > - I support Eric= 9;s DISCUSS. It seems to me that an attacker could simply
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > advertise duplicate= BFR-IDs or overlapping label ranges and have a significant
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > impact on the netwo= rk.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> that should be taken car= e of by protocol authentication and existing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> text covers that:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> "There can be deplo= yments where potential attackers have access to one
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> or more networks in the = OSPF routing domain. In these deployments,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> stronger authentication = mechanisms such as those specified in [RFC7474]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> SHOULD be used." =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I=E2=80=99ll let Eric handle= the DISCUSS and whether he thinks this is ok.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > (3) IANA Considerat= ions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > Section 2.2: "= The BIER MPLS Encapsulation Sub-TLV is a Sub-TLV of the BIER
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > Sub-TLV." Howe= ver, the type for this sub-sub-TLV is allocated from the OSPF
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > Extended Prefix sub= -TLV registry...and not from a new registry for sub-TLVs for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > the BIER Sub-TLV. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> The OSPFv2 Extended Pref= ix TLV Sub-TLVs registry "defines sub-TLVs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> at any level of nesting = for OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLVs".
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> We have 16 bits for TLV = type in OSPF, so we can afford to do so :)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Ah, I see.=C2=A0 That text i= s buried in rfc7684, and not reflected in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > registry itself.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > We=E2=80=99re good then.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks!
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Alvaro.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER@ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/bier
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier>




=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER mailing list
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER@ietf.= org <mailto:BIER@= ietf.org>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/b= ier
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/bier>




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bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.75.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152088049438.10820.2088730819129015880.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:48:14 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-10: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 18:48:14 -0000 Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-10: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for addressing my DISCUSS point. * Section 4.2. "When the Prefix Attributes Flags sub-TLV is present N flag MUST be set." Given that RFC7794, which defines this sub-TLV, clearly mentions that setting this flag is purely optional, is there a reason this is made mandatory? I do not see any checking for this flag in the behavior. 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--_000_0681590C1C9049F3B822A03E5514174Ekaloomcom_-- From nobody Mon Mar 12 12:32:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA83D126C3D; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 12:32:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.75.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152088316465.10816.9009288014497366063@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 12:32:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-16.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 19:32:45 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : OSPFv2 Extensions for BIER Authors : Peter Psenak Nagendra Kumar IJsbrand Wijnands Andrew Dolganow Tony Przygienda Jeffrey Zhang Sam Aldrin Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-16.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2018-03-12 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain multicast related per-flow state. Neither does BIER require an explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. Such header contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by the according set of bits set in BIER packet header. This document describes the OSPF [RFC2328] protocol extension required for BIER with MPLS encapsulation [RFC8296]. Support for other encapsulation types is outside thescope of this document. The use of multiple encapsulation types is outside the scope of this document. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-16 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-16 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-16 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 12 13:44:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDD0120454; Mon, 12 Mar 2018 13:44:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Suresh Krishnan To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, Reshad Rahman , bier-chairs@ietf.org, rrahman@cisco.com, bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.75.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152088747795.10766.1682302621001505553.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 13:44:37 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-16: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 20:44:38 -0000 Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-16: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for addressing my DISCUSS and COMMENT points. From nobody Thu Mar 15 01:26:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA35D12D876 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:26:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3q-41Gm9Md7q for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22d.google.com (mail-qk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE2D112D883 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id f25so6425339qkm.0 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:26:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uXO06TYHwPQL0iYqRWjnHnMC401ia9+XFHWT/B9zlRo=; b=VKjN8VZrXWh5i2Udjwvrt4cYj4clH38rqO6NhMiZAei/a2fnv4XMxMNQAg/8z5iy5K fVSTwsufhYtl5+79Z7zxcyvQl8sTmuuQG5Smj1Uz9MUX57AvWBVKEsZPc+zu0WzZZfCs 7Kwv9y6h9mXkMw/3jwLQtmAbtPjR1qNODvQ+PmpJgqxhWt2hxFJL4+Eipcngdm+i8qqU b+2NiaWQv+4NLzybDx/vEQwwE7+jmbSPXjLi+pqwrKOIlQX6z6Ryzoefo1dR1DoqMDIV iuAWTSnIh4PQqDQVSn4sLKhd6LUizptsNJaOXXG8rzZfHb8nHd5f1xPOTOUBhgTrvxHf 2cZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uXO06TYHwPQL0iYqRWjnHnMC401ia9+XFHWT/B9zlRo=; b=lGptDAsf192JuwxWNyGKS7TDEx3tCADVkHwAOo2ImG4BqQy9Xwge8IX37M+MoVHxWC E+xVkugme0OnBqmPbLXyAkZax2n9LXCj4v5VLuuYufL4wLZxSNNVlu5VOPjP4vrVCelp Bm1MK16dHV6Y/2zzs6ama7SETspKZ4kP4bdJ2QM2RBjAQgFLCDTJE7gVk8N6Vdb/rZtp Z7GlOSOGnxJxGHt15GL97c2Zk2OqjnP31odbTC7y8O2SUUMg82zdNRuvIc+Z2oAz7RPR Jadwki3ctZKZ9/SC068eg2k7OiEruHQgy+M0ylathYDIM6JOD2gaY8yUafDiIqObuVzX 5QPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HQLyyYq100cQfiknQVaZnxeBEYRM+ARqcKxHfHXMoRSTmPC5Qp ueioqMwa2l3Sg3sDlOA2kOw9zCE4rjPIfUX4bF3tEvzxkto= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELva2AgSReoBohDCiYNghbllLgFL410tRktm97DMUXLXSwxp4TjLBLbgm6i28cTHJ+hL04oqzlj8N+Q9gsa9cow= X-Received: by 10.55.198.153 with SMTP id s25mr10669729qkl.221.1521102406876; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:26:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.37.234 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 01:26:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:26:06 +0000 Message-ID: To: The IESG Cc: rrahman@cisco.com, bier@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11430b28a11fc005676f40a9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:26:52 -0000 --001a11430b28a11fc005676f40a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about the following section: It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single administrative domain. There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used. First, why are you assuming that BIER will be run within a single administrative domain. That's not generally the case for multicast now, is it? Or is it merely that OSPF will generally be run within a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside a single administrative domain you won't want to use OSPF? It's hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe the situation is if routing is subverted, but given the uses to which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some fairly large volumes of diverted traffic. Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume that the links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect that you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to ensure integrity. It seems like there are two ways to look at this: 1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous (weak) standards apply. 2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kind of thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern standards should apply. At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, especially, but I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially my security co-ADs. -Ekr On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt > > I have not yet reviewed this document in detail: > > Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV > permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF failures. > > This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your > threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the > case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to > point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be > documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the > same points and lists a few specific items to examine. > > > > > --001a11430b28a11fc005676f40a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for updating the security considerations. I ha= ve two concerns about
the following section:

=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a si= ngle
=C2=A0 =C2=A0administrative domain.=C2=A0 There can be deplo= yments where potential
=C2=A0 =C2=A0attackers have access to one = or more networks in the OSPF routing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain.=C2=A0 I= n these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used.

First, why are you assuming that BIER will be run within a single<= /div>
administrative domain. That's not generally the case for mult= icast
now, is it? Or is it merely that OSPF will generally be run= within
a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER= outside
a single administrative domain you won't want to use= OSPF? It's
hard to tell from the BIER security consideration= s how severe
the situation is if routing is subverted, but given = the uses to
which multicast is put, it seems like it could result= in some
fairly large volumes of diverted traffic.

=
Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe = to assume
that the links are in fact safe, so generally one would= expect that
you would run communications security on at the rout= ing protocol to
ensure integrity. It seems like there are two way= s to look at this:

1. We are just extending OSPF t= o do a new thing, so the previous
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(weak) standards a= pply.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
2. We are basically designing routi= ng for an entirely new kind of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0thing (BIER), even th= ough it happens to use OSPF, so modern
=C2=A0 =C2=A0standards sho= uld apply.

At present, I lean towards the second i= nterpretation, especially, but
I'd like to hear what the othe= r members of the IESG think, especially
my security co-ADs.
=

-Ekr



=





=



On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com= > wrote:
Eric Rescorla has = entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/<= wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<= wbr>doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/



-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt

I have not yet reviewed this document in detail:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV
=C2=A0 =C2=A0permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF fai= lures.

This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your
threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the
case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to
point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the
same points and lists a few specific items to examine.





--001a11430b28a11fc005676f40a9-- From nobody Thu Mar 15 07:24:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E97B12D7E8; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:24:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UMEKizQ74G45; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x22b.google.com (mail-ot0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71CAA12D777; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id i28-v6so2333298otf.8; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:24:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PS9MouOb/4azexR8moXg9oMjn+amRw33eZrJnWFgm1s=; b=BOUKybtDNXrGOo9gWmsQmqTT1lszVdMiH5f6OBQJCnwcZHdbRIcoFRmyMjFc6nDAit WiekyVW36VKx5tJuCXccezBG8b8p9+10l+MLW8HR2SnazLX5Qt5799kzdwnvrlbxM0/Z sHxuhGIR/yOFgwbZEs0/3i6hUC76SntS9GSwKiMNbbTg9PpnYqQEif+4JjeT9oHVudO/ smykSaA4yk4vqvjmkVTAN+pUPb22+eKJIFvulYN/R/aMpQXfYW7NQ5zMGl0JeAM5thvf zAVHGOQbRhRZIoY0V7OOAzXH4YFZwmbMge7HfByMR/vZlfwA3BXlfBafAQrat3BN8RU6 ov0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PS9MouOb/4azexR8moXg9oMjn+amRw33eZrJnWFgm1s=; b=I9MoD36b00vQzQ8/tIr/iFZ544unNi4M7aLQq1cZUUn+Ua2My1PbRfxHCslHhBIhr0 9Rug+RTmFThyGOBAXtLYc4/sLmgYu746xYUaTIY21xuY01nbpPP7un/RH0G/hIp4JYoY z2e5uxsg978st6gTa7IMtMxVMIZ+d/sWZsVyP847bR6TYPju3088ZwHkQPB/nBD7cz4Z yNzT872FxiJQpZEyl5w3NQBud0pCILb7+gpRaSFQZAoeTRmJZU37dAru4aoGaa5mchQx 7eMus5MPk/rjkJPfRTnrrTRcaIkm9HxkfdW8g+HhpyUkP/+0yHTYwcWvZjH4Wu7Oj9JG aq8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EAv4xO+xkcq99mMcJdHcsPuj9ZiOPXT13a7VSigXhTvIozgyXV yhqw9QrWvoCLnUSGBqGCpu+iy/LIUHUlA8uzRMM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELu1lFiFPOiPn4e2IURWHqEvFtqLTMyVZoTFlQY5cmRdopdTXP/a37R00deqJrCOoYIKbHeZ9wIyInQUy56fnJg= X-Received: by 10.157.3.196 with SMTP id f62mr5934098otf.360.1521123871492; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:4439:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:24:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alia Atlas Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 10:24:30 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla , Acee Lindem Cc: The IESG , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c03c3260514ce05677440a2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 14:24:35 -0000 --94eb2c03c3260514ce05677440a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Eric, On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 4:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Thanks for updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about > the following section: > > It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single > administrative domain. There can be deployments where potential > attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing > domain. In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms > such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used. > > First, why are you assuming that BIER will be run within a single > administrative domain. That's not generally the case for multicast > now, is it? Or is it merely that OSPF will generally be run within > a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside > a single administrative domain you won't want to use OSPF? It's > hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe > the situation is if routing is subverted, but given the uses to > which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some > fairly large volumes of diverted traffic. > Practical deployments of multicast are in single forwarding domains today. If there is desire to support multicast between administrative domains, it would likely extend BGP for the inter-domain interactions. OSPF is an IGP which is always a single administrative domain. It has complete shared trust in the distributed routing database to support the distributed SPF computation. Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume > that the links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect that > you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to > ensure integrity. It seems like there are two ways to look at this: > I believe that RFC 7474 is providing an authentication mechanism that provides integrity-protection and prevents against replay. It isn't private - but untrusted links for listening are very different than being able to inject packets. Regardless, RFC 7474 provides that protection. One of the challenges with routing protocols is the bootstrapping aspects of some of the general security mechanisms, that depend on having network connectivity to reach resources that simply isn't available before routing is functional. > 1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous > (weak) standards apply. > > 2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kind of > thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern > standards should apply. > I personally do not know what more would be desired practically for OSPF security. Acee, of course, will have more focused opinions - but it isn't clear to me what would be desirable to add. I think KARP dealt with OSPF as practically as possible. As for "should modern standards apply" - it's a mixture and depends on what types of attacks are truly of concern. Deborah has taken up looking for a Design Team to try to better articulate what is there for security and the trade-offs. BIER is based on MPLS and Ethernet. For Ethernet, there is the existence of MAC Security. For MPLS, there have been no market motivators for having hop-by-hop encryption; for example, a draft describing how to do this sat adopted in the MPLS WG for several years - but could not find anyone interested in even implementing it for experimental. When one examines the data in the BIER header, it is fundamentally expected to change at every hop and is network data. The user-data in the packets, can, of course be protected by the end-to-end applications. Regards, Alia > At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, especially, but > I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially > my security co-ADs. > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt >> >> I have not yet reviewed this document in detail: >> >> Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV >> permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF failures. >> >> This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your >> threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the >> case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to >> point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be >> documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the >> same points and lists a few specific items to examine. >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --94eb2c03c3260514ce05677440a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eric,

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 4:26 AM, Eric Rescorla &l= t;ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
Thanks = for updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about
the following section:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is assum= ed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a= dministrative domain.=C2=A0 There can be deployments where potential
<= div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF = routing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain.=C2=A0 In these deployments, stronger= authentication mechanisms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0such as those specified i= n [RFC7474] SHOULD be used.

First, why are you ass= uming that BIER will be run within a single
administrative domain= . That's not generally the case for multicast
now, is it? Or = is it merely that OSPF will generally be run within
a single admi= nistrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside
a single adm= inistrative domain you won't want to use OSPF? It's
hard = to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe
the situ= ation is if routing is subverted, but given the uses to
which mul= ticast is put, it seems like it could result in some
fairly large= volumes of diverted traffic.

P= ractical deployments of multicast are in single forwarding domains today.
If there is desire to support multicast between administrative dom= ains, it would
likely extend BGP for the inter-domain interaction= s.=C2=A0 OSPF is an IGP which is
always a single administrative d= omain.=C2=A0 It has complete shared trust in the=C2=A0
distribute= d routing database to support the distributed SPF computation.=C2=A0
<= div>
Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assum= e
that the links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect = that
you would run communications security on at the routing prot= ocol to
ensure integrity. It seems like there are two ways to loo= k at this:

I believe that RFC 7= 474 is providing an authentication mechanism that provides
integr= ity-protection and prevents against replay.=C2=A0 It isn't private - bu= t untrusted
links for listening are very different than being abl= e to inject packets.=C2=A0 Regardless,
RFC 7474 provides that pro= tection.=C2=A0

One of the challenges with routing = protocols is the bootstrapping aspects of some
of the general sec= urity mechanisms, that depend on having network connectivity
to r= each resources that simply isn't available before routing is functional= .=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0
1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, s= o the previous
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(weak) standards apply.
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0
2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely = new kind of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0thing (BIER), even though it happens to = use OSPF, so modern
=C2=A0 =C2=A0standards should apply.

I personally do not know what more woul= d be desired practically for OSPF security.
Acee, of course, will= have more focused opinions - but it isn't clear to me what would
=
be desirable to add.=C2=A0 I think KARP dealt with OSPF as practically= as possible.

As for "should modern standards= apply" - it's a mixture and depends on what types
of at= tacks are truly of concern. Deborah has taken up looking for a Design Team = to
try to better articulate what is there for security and the tr= ade-offs.

BIER is based on MPLS and Ethernet.=C2= =A0 For Ethernet, there is the existence of MAC=C2=A0
Security.= =C2=A0 For MPLS, there have been no market motivators for having hop-by-hop=
encryption; for example, a draft describing how to do this sat a= dopted in the MPLS WG
for several years - but could not find anyo= ne interested in even implementing it for
experimental.

When one examines the data in the BIER header, it is fundam= entally expected to=C2=A0
change at every hop and is network data= .=C2=A0 The user-data in the packets, can, of course
be protected= by the end-to-end applications.

Regards,
Alia
=C2=A0
At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, esp= ecially, but
I'd like to hear what the other members of the I= ESG think, especially
my security co-ADs.

-Ekr











On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, E= ric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/



-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt

I have not yet reviewed this document in detail:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV
=C2=A0 =C2=A0permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF fai= lures.

This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your
threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the
case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to
point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the
same points and lists a few specific items to examine.






_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--94eb2c03c3260514ce05677440a2-- From nobody Thu Mar 15 08:10:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA4912D88A; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWSrMjdBXsWB; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B12F12D87C; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x231.google.com with SMTP id a20so23562768wmd.1; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:10:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=k/qSljA29cokBxJVIHefUIblsc8v6TsuDtM2T5B1p2s=; b=I0ADD7qCPhOCvBVN1/2fw10jrh3zPtyawrPW0EOEK0CyGNa2BM/C5T3Qc70SXBSQt1 3VbeKFZOG4DlyV35A4sds9DAm/xpY+E/WokIF8pLZxtc/GveHtt1CTz2C/mzCm7nMat+ vRj2UlSuiQVS5UqQilmQyvCJY6NzGPyyXVSiywdC2jDPBuDTPuyRfZr3LuSBLTMQ3DTq a46oFxG8YqRGC+eASwUWmaVS9iDgOCrZvMt154FPwT28zn3QHjWYtqBG8KDj+IAqxOg+ DhK6X9Hf6F10jbMpZTOKkmw1u8GQYfI/QuWGRJY9+wMv9YmTjJAHqFSQ/MAgHGh7iJ0E wsSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=k/qSljA29cokBxJVIHefUIblsc8v6TsuDtM2T5B1p2s=; b=ePAtZE/7dlZW3NLcs5CJNCv5llj1vi9kzzgC26uqpqJSfbbquwYK7F0XWjgVXKzrZ4 lzhXTNoZpkdNM2M8LQNYt7eTRsPWZnIhJydW1c1XEqnluk6Qy4r61VGEGKh12Vfwx2Q7 oQIdCJ2qoP/HuFKaDr3kKbc5TLlRMV9Jx+EXcKELqgNJwJ+oGu55QS05HiqR3BMO4gQq TCEv3big04Ep1iQTXBKQF0XEgZ3y27ZEGdZmerxPMZSYrEKUwJbWCsV9JcLKtpBaaCGC oetcErD39epUQ0eDNJ+Z4v5m74UFsc6ZEFyiKJhKL49uoMcfymEYJEjp751zdJZ8nLwX lSbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7F7mejTc4UIl7Qs/Hutr74FrSJp0EbHsjH63UFKqdmwPFFAFlIj 1dxEoxXDS6WLB7jtXGB5NCJBWfGHJDMFpNQZmBw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuKAiJXVS4vPhT/yyiwMawMOaYDOJ8p0wlka/EcV4WizSdwcvNwHRahIHuTprRYxfn9VOusIURbcn4NEWRPfUQ= X-Received: by 10.80.192.83 with SMTP id u19mr9266019edd.16.1521126610639; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:09:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:09:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: The IESG , Reshad , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1cd340491e4c056774e303" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 15:10:15 -0000 --94eb2c1cd340491e4c056774e303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 1:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Thanks for updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about > the following section: > > It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single > administrative domain. There can be deployments where potential > attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing > domain. In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms > such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used. > > First, why are you assuming that BIER will be run within a single > administrative domain. That's not generally the case for multicast > now, is it? Or is it merely that OSPF will generally be run within > a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside > a single administrative domain you won't want to use OSPF? > Eric, OSPF is normally run within a single AD (at least I never saw it stretching ADs unless we talk about DMZ as such a thing or consider overlays running OSPF though the overlays are their own ADs) due to the way the protocol is designed. In fact, it does not carry AS as a concept anywhere (modulo some corner-cases such as 4577 where AS is encoded in tags), instead it talks about ASBR which is the AS border OSPF touches (and where AS external routes can be injected). So I don't think any inter-AS considerations for this draft are relevant as they may have to in IDR extensions. > It's > hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe > the situation is if routing is subverted, but given the uses to > which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some > fairly large volumes of diverted traffic. > > Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume > that the links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect that > you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to > ensure integrity. It seems like there are two ways to look at this: > > 1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous > (weak) standards apply. > > 2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kind of > thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern > standards should apply > > > At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, especially, but > I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially > my security co-ADs. > I would be interested why you lean towards the 2nd interpretation. In my view, BIER is a very lightweight addition on top of OSPF and does not extend any of its primitives at all except using the standard way to add some sub-TLVs using RFC7684 and RFC4915, both long established OSPF concepts. In a sense it uses OSPF as light-weight signalling only (and currently uses its computation results to derive a set of BIER next-hops). Neither represents any change in OSPF architecture or threat model IMO. If your concern is addressing what you describe as "weak" standard OSPF security then I would venture to say that trying to put that into a BIER OSPF signalling draft would be a poor choice of locus. Same for BIER as forwarding plane/architecture security considerations. So, if we have to spell out that BIER OSPF signalling has the same security profile as OSPF, yes, a good reference "boilerplate" would be nice and same for BIER as forwarding paradigm/architecture. thanks -- tony > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt >> >> I have not yet reviewed this document in detail: >> >> Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV >> permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF failures. >> >> This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your >> threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the >> case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to >> point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be >> documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the >> same points and lists a few specific items to examine. >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --94eb2c1cd340491e4c056774e303 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 1:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>= wrote:
Thanks for = updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about
t= he following section:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is assumed t= hat both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single
=C2=A0 =C2=A0admin= istrative domain.=C2=A0 There can be deployments where potential
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF rout= ing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain.=C2=A0 In these deployments, stronger aut= hentication mechanisms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0such as those specified in [R= FC7474] SHOULD be used.

First, why are you assumin= g that BIER will be run within a single
administrative domain. Th= at's not generally the case for multicast
now, is it? Or is i= t merely that OSPF will generally be run within
a single administ= rative domain and if you are to run BIER outside
a single adminis= trative domain you won't want to use OSPF?

Eric,

OSPF is normally run within a single AD (at l= east I never saw it stretching
ADs unless we talk about DMZ = as such a thing
or consider overlays running OSPF though
the overlay= s are their own ADs) due to the way the protocol is designed.
In fact, it does not carry AS as a concept anywhere (modulo some corner-ca= ses
such as 4577 where AS is encoded in tags), instead it ta= lks about
ASBR which is the AS border OSPF touches (and wher= e AS
external routes can be injected). So I don't think = any inter-AS
considerations for this draft are relevant as t= hey may have to in
IDR extensions.
=C2=A0
=
It's
ha= rd to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe
the s= ituation is if routing is subverted, but given the uses to
which = multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some
fairly la= rge volumes of diverted traffic.

Second, even with= in an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume
that the= links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect that
you w= ould run communications security on at the routing protocol to
en= sure integrity. It seems like there are two ways to look at this:

1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the pre= vious
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(weak) standards apply.
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0
2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kin= d of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSP= F, so modern
=C2=A0 =C2=A0standards should apply
=C2=A0
<= /div>

=
At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, especially= , but
I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG thi= nk, especially
my security co-ADs.
<= br>
I would be interested why you lean towards the 2nd interp= retation.
In my view, BIER is a very lightweight addition on= top of OSPF and does not
extend any of its primitives at al= l except using the standard way to
add some sub-TLVs using R= FC7684 and RFC4915, both long
established OSPF concepts. In = a sense it uses OSPF as
light-weight signalling only (and cu= rrently uses its computation results
to derive a set of BIER = next-hops). Neither represents any
change in OSPF architectur= e or threat model IMO.

If your concern is addressing wha= t you describe as "weak" standard
OSPF security the= n I would venture to say that trying to put that into a
BIER= OSPF signalling draft would be a poor choice of locus.=C2=A0 Same for
=
BIER as forwarding plane/architecture security considerations.

So, if we have to spell out that BIER OSPF sign= alling has the same
security profile as OSPF, yes, a good ref= erence "boilerplate" would be nice and
same for BI= ER as forwarding paradigm/architecture.

thanks

<= /div>
-- tony


=C2=A0

-Ekr









On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.c= om> wrote:
Eric Rescorla ha= s entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/



-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt

I have not yet reviewed this document in detail:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV
=C2=A0 =C2=A0permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF fai= lures.

This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your
threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the
case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to
point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the
same points and lists a few specific items to examine.






_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


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let me throw in my two cents. On 3/15/2018 4:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Thanks for updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about > the following section: > >    It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single >    administrative domain.  There can be deployments where potential >    attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing >    domain.  In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms >    such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used. > > First, why are you assuming that BIER will be run within a single > administrative domain. BIER requires each BFR to be assigned a BFR-id, which is  a 16-bit number.  Since the BFR-ids are not globally unique, a particular assignment of BFR-id to BFR is constrained to a single "administrative domain" of some sort.  What BIER really does is to simplify the multicast data and control planes within the bounds of an administrative domain. > That's not generally the case for multicast > now, is it? Actually, it is.  At least in practice. > Or is it merely that OSPF will generally be run within > a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside > a single administrative domain you won't want to use OSPF? The BIER extensions to OSPF provide the information needed to run BIER within the OSPF administrative domain. > It's > hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe > the situation is if routing is subverted, If the OSPF routing can be subverted, there is no limit to the amount of damage that can be done to both unicast and multicast traffic.  You could, e.g., divert all unicast traffic that has certain destination addresses.  One has to remember that, with BIER, the path taken by a multicast packet to get from A to B is generally the same as the path taken by a unicast packet to get from A to B. Screw up the latter and you screw up the former. > but given the uses to > which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some > fairly large volumes of diverted traffic. Since BIER depends upon the soundness of the unicast routing, an attack on the unicast routing could be used to screw up the multicast traffic.  If the unicast routing is not protected, there is hardly any point in protecting the OSPF BIER extensions.  That would be like leaving your front door open and then being careful to lock your kitchen window. > > Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume > that the links are in fact safe, Link layer security has been available for a long time. > so generally one would expect that > you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to > ensure integrity.  For an IGP, I'd think that you really want authentication to make sure that every participant in the IGP is actually one of the routers that belongs to the proper administration. > It seems like there are two ways to look at this: > > 1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous >    (weak) standards apply. > 2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kind of >    thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern >    standards should apply. > > At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, One has to remember that BIER depends upon the unicast routing that is established by OSPF.  It's not just that the OSPF packets have been extended to carry BIER-specific information; the BIER traffic follows paths that are computed by the (unicast) SPF algorithm from the (unicast) topology information distributed by OSPF. So I think the proper conclusion is that better security for the IGPs would benefit BIER, but authentication/integrity/privacy for just the BIER-specific information carried by OSPF does not really provide anything worthwhile. > especially, but > I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially > my security co-ADs. > Even better would be to hear practical solutions to the routing security problems! 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15 Mar 2018 14:02:33 -0400 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Alia Atlas , Eric Rescorla CC: The IESG , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , BIER WG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHTqzjP9DNHokWC7UCsCuCWTBoxlKPRWyIAgABkIwD///ndAA== Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:02:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.196] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E8456E09EA8F4F7098CC8AFA70528241ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:02:38 -0000 --_000_E8456E09EA8F4F7098CC8AFA70528241ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRXJpYywNCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIFRvbnkgYW5kIEFsaWEgdGhhdCBPU1BGIGlzIGRlZmlu ZWQgd2l0aGluIGEgc2luZ2xlIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aXZlIGRvbWFpbiDigJMgdGhlIOKAnEnigJ0g aW4g4oCcSUdQ4oCdIGlzIGZvciDigJxJbnRlcm5hbOKAnS4gSW4gc29tZSBkZXBsb3ltZW50cywg dGhlIEJJRVIgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gbWF5IGJlIGV4cG9ydGVkIGJldHdlZW4gcHJvdG9jb2xzIGFu ZCBkb21haW5zLiBIb3dldmVyLCB0aGlzIHdvdWxkIGFsbCBtb3JlIGludG8gdGhlIHJlYWxtIG9m IElEUi4NCg0KV2l0aCByZXNwZWN0IHRvIE9TUEYgU2VjdXJpdHksIEkgZG9u4oCZdCBrbm93IHdo eSB1c2luZyBPU1BGIGZvciBkaXNjb3Zlcnkgb2YgQklFUiBwYXJhbWV0ZXJzIHJlcXVpcmVzIGFu eSBtb3JlIG9yIGxlc3Mgc2VjdXJpdHkgdGhhbiB0aGUgdW5kZXJsYXkgb3ZlciB3aGljaCB0aGUg 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AElRT7HArd8AUYdIV5b9N57uF4+VWNnrcNuFaztFh+SXXTOujQ7WaB4r PeAxtyBRNGFe6XFHd4/bsBw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsUWy+7KEo9Gvm1rZH8FC5gAC8MMCTmYv2TG+LsoFj97VQT79sacakmI2OR15hBUO3qySjovQ== X-Received: by 10.99.117.68 with SMTP id f4mr5806434pgn.437.1521137632155; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] ([76.126.247.72]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o128sm12588072pfg.96.2018.03.15.11.13.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:13:51 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.a.0.180210 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:13:49 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Alia Atlas , Eric Rescorla CC: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , BIER WG , The IESG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3603957231_1211672548" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:13:58 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3603957231_1211672548 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Eric, =20 I support Acee=E2=80=99 and Alia=E2=80=99 comments specifically wrt BIER extensions to = IGPs and would like this discussion to lead to IGP security consideration di= scussion in LSR , rather than to =E2=80=9Coverloading=E2=80=9D BIER. =20 Cheers, Jeff From: BIER on behalf of "Acee Lindem (acee)" Date: Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 11:02 To: Alia Atlas , Eric Rescorla Cc: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" <= bier-chairs@ietf.org>, BIER WG , The IESG , "d= raft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-ex= tensions-13: (with DISCUSS) =20 Hi Eric, =20 I agree with Tony and Alia that OSPF is defined within a single administrat= ive domain =E2=80=93 the =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=9D in =E2=80=9CIGP=E2=80=9D is for =E2=80=9CInternal=E2=80=9D. In some deplo= yments, the BIER information may be exported between protocols and domains. = However, this would all more into the realm of IDR.=20 =20 With respect to OSPF Security, I don=E2=80=99t know why using OSPF for discovery = of BIER parameters requires any more or less security than the underlay over= which the multicast forwarding is deployed. I agree that the exposures are = different (as Peter conveyed in the updated text). I see a reference to (wea= k) OSPF security below. Rather than levying tangential DISCUSS=E2=80=99es on LSR d= ocuments advertising additional information, perhaps a better tact would be = to define precisely what you think is weak about OSPF (and IS-IS) security a= nd take it to the LSR WG as requirements. I agree it would be good to consol= idate generic OSPF (and IS-IS) security considerations into new document(s) = but I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need new mechanism. Please clear this DISCUSS ASA= P.=20 =20 Thanks, Acee =20 =20 =20 From: Alia Atlas Date: Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:24 AM To: Eric Rescorla , Acee Lindem Cc: The IESG , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" = , BIER WG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" <= draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org>, "bier-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-ex= tensions-13: (with DISCUSS) =20 Hi Eric,=20 =20 On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 4:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: Thanks for updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about the following section: =20 It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single administrative domain. There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used. =20 First, why are you assuming that BIER will be run within a single administrative domain. That's not generally the case for multicast now, is it? Or is it merely that OSPF will generally be run within a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside a single administrative domain you won't want to use OSPF? It's hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe the situation is if routing is subverted, but given the uses to which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some fairly large volumes of diverted traffic. =20 Practical deployments of multicast are in single forwarding domains today. If there is desire to support multicast between administrative domains, it = would likely extend BGP for the inter-domain interactions. OSPF is an IGP which = is always a single administrative domain. It has complete shared trust in the= =20 distributed routing database to support the distributed SPF computation.=20 =20 Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume that the links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect that you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to ensure integrity. It seems like there are two ways to look at this: =20 I believe that RFC 7474 is providing an authentication mechanism that provi= des integrity-protection and prevents against replay. It isn't private - but u= ntrusted links for listening are very different than being able to inject packets. = Regardless, RFC 7474 provides that protection.=20 =20 One of the challenges with routing protocols is the bootstrapping aspects o= f some of the general security mechanisms, that depend on having network connectiv= ity to reach resources that simply isn't available before routing is functional= . =20 =20 1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous (weak) standards apply. =20 2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kind of thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern standards should apply. =20 I personally do not know what more would be desired practically for OSPF se= curity. Acee, of course, will have more focused opinions - but it isn't clear to me= what would be desirable to add. I think KARP dealt with OSPF as practically as possib= le. =20 As for "should modern standards apply" - it's a mixture and depends on what= types of attacks are truly of concern. Deborah has taken up looking for a Design = Team to try to better articulate what is there for security and the trade-offs. =20 BIER is based on MPLS and Ethernet. For Ethernet, there is the existence o= f MAC=20 Security. For MPLS, there have been no market motivators for having hop-by= -hop encryption; for example, a draft describing how to do this sat adopted in t= he MPLS WG for several years - but could not find anyone interested in even implementi= ng it for experimental. =20 When one examines the data in the BIER header, it is fundamentally expected= to=20 change at every hop and is network data. The user-data in the packets, can= , of course be protected by the end-to-end applications. =20 Regards, Alia =20 At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, especially, but I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially my security co-ADs. =20 -Ekr =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt I have not yet reviewed this document in detail: Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF failures. This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the same points and lists a few specific items to examine. =20 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier =20 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf= .org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier=20 --B_3603957231_1211672548 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Eric,

 =

I support Acee=E2=80=99 and Alia=E2=80=99 comments specific= ally wrt BIER extensions to IGPs and would like this discussion to lead to I= GP security consideration discussion in LSR , rather than to =E2=80=9Coverloading=E2= =80=9D BIER.

 

Cheers,

Jeff

From: <= /b>BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
<= b>Date: Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 11:02
To: Alia Atlas <a= katlas@gmail.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: "= ;Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "bier-chairs@= ietf.org" <bier-chairs@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, = The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@i= etf.org" <draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org>
Su= bject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-e= xtensions-13: (with DISCUSS)

 

Hi Eric,

 

I agree with Tony an= d Alia that OSPF is defined within a single administrative domain =E2=80=93 the =E2=80= =9CI=E2=80=9D in =E2=80=9CIGP=E2=80=9D is for =E2=80=9CInternal=E2=80=9D. In some deployments, the BIER info= rmation may be exported between protocols and domains. However, this would a= ll more into the realm of IDR.

 =

With respect to OSPF Security, I don=E2=80=99t know w= hy using OSPF for discovery of BIER parameters requires any more or less sec= urity than the underlay over which the multicast forwarding is deployed. I a= gree that the exposures are different (as Peter conveyed in the updated text= ). I see a reference to (weak) OSPF security below. Rather than levying tang= ential DISCUSS=E2=80=99es on LSR documents advertising additional information, per= haps a better tact would be to define precisely what you think is weak about= OSPF (and IS-IS) security and take it to the LSR WG as requirements. I agre= e it would be good to consolidate generic OSPF (and IS-IS) security consider= ations into new document(s) but I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need new mechanism. P= lease clear this DISCUSS ASAP.

 =

Thanks,

Acee

 

&nbs= p;

 

From: Alia Atlas <= akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:24 AMTo: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.= com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "Reshad Rahman (r= rahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, &quo= t;draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bier-os= pf-bier-extensions@ietf.org>, "bier-chairs@ietf.org" <bier-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on = draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS)

 

Hi Eric,

 

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 4:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <<= /span>ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:=

Thanks for updating t= he security considerations. I have two concerns about

<= /div>

the following section:

 

  &n= bsp;It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single=

   administrative domain. = There can be deployments where potential

   attackers have access to one or more networks in the= OSPF routing

   doma= in.  In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms

   such as those specified in = [RFC7474] SHOULD be used.

 = ;

First, why are you assuming t= hat BIER will be run within a single

administrative domain. That's not generally the case for multicast

now, is it? Or is it merely that O= SPF will generally be run within

a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside

a single administrative domain you won'= t want to use OSPF? It's

hard t= o tell from the BIER security considerations how severe

the situation is if routing is subverted, but given= the uses to

which multicast is= put, it seems like it could result in some

=

fairly large volumes of diverted traffic.

=

 

Practical deployments of multicast are in single forwardi= ng domains today.

If there is d= esire to support multicast between administrative domains, it would

likely extend BGP for the inter-domain = interactions.  OSPF is an IGP which is

=

always a single administrative domain.  It has complete sh= ared trust in the 

distrib= uted routing database to support the distributed SPF computation. =

 

<= blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0i= n 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-botto= m:5.0pt'>

Second, even within an administrative domain= , it's not safe to assume

that = the links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect that

you would run communications security on at = the routing protocol to

ensure = integrity. It seems like there are two ways to look at this:

 

I believe that RFC 7474 is providing an authenticat= ion mechanism that provides

int= egrity-protection and prevents against replay.  It isn't private - but = untrusted

links for listening a= re very different than being able to inject packets.  Regardless,<= /o:p>

RFC 7474 provides that protection.&n= bsp;

 

One of the challenges with routing protocols is th= e bootstrapping aspects of some

of the general security mechanisms, that depend on having network connectiv= ity

to reach resources that sim= ply isn't available before routing is functional.  

 

<= div>

1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so th= e previous

   (weak) = standards apply.

   <= o:p>

= 2. We are basically designing r= outing for an entirely new kind of

   thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern=

   standards should = apply.

 = ;

I personally do not know what= more would be desired practically for OSPF security.

<= /div>

Acee, of course, will have more focused opinions - bu= t it isn't clear to me what would

be desirable to add.  I think KARP dealt with OSPF as practically as= possible.

 

As for "should modern standards apply&q= uot; - it's a mixture and depends on what types

<= div>

of attacks are truly of concern. Deborah has taken up looki= ng for a Design Team to

try to = better articulate what is there for security and the trade-offs.<= /span>

 

BIER is based on MPLS and Ethernet.  For Ethernet, there is t= he existence of MAC 

Secur= ity.  For MPLS, there have been no market motivators for having hop-by-= hop

encryption; for example, a = draft describing how to do this sat adopted in the MPLS WG=

for several years - but could not find anyone in= terested in even implementing it for

experimental.

 =

When one examines the data in the B= IER header, it is fundamentally expected to 

change at every hop and is network data.  The user-d= ata in the packets, can, of course

be protected by the end-to-end applications.

=

 

Regard= s,

Alia

 

=

At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, especiall= y, but

I'd like to hear what th= e other members of the IESG think, especially

my security co-ADs.

 

-Ekr

 

 

 <= /span>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=

 

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com= > wrote:

Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
dra= ft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss

When responding, please= keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included i= n the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, how= ever.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html<= /span>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS a= nd COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot posit= ions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-os= pf-bier-extensions/



---------= -------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:----------------------------------------------------------------------
<= br>Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt

I have not y= et reviewed this document in detail:

   Implementations mus= t assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV
   permutations do not = result in errors which cause hard OSPF failures.

This is not an adequ= ate security considerations section. What is your
threat model? What atta= cks are possible? What are not? It may be the
case that this is all cover= ed in other documents, and you just need to
point to them, but the reader= doesn't know that, so this needs to be
documented. Adam Montville's SECD= IR review which makes some of the
same points and lists a few specific it= ems to examine.




=

 


_______________= ________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.or= g
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

 <= /span>

_______________________________________________ BIER mailing list = BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier <= /p>

--B_3603957231_1211672548-- From nobody Thu Mar 15 11:32:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF3412DA14 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:32:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WaJEM4hXp58K for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D8D412D80E for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id h4so2494213qtn.13 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:32:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q08bfau2/F7LJiRaYok89x+UtXHTId/+tcIkbZMpoAs=; b=Lq9Wiui9hfnT0pIED2Uv5NOKT9aW9YMUvQKH9JIw4o25IEfa7S46qQ+H1RGkrnzLv8 NaGrxFv0mTUyWuhQ0CpA8d3fVBzy46iaj7ALDpAGwDDLsbPghQwVZ+Gk8cGYrQuu+I7D jH8qvxy9UeEWwdy24nGB3pm+rSiY4awsMslFZ2NC3EJuuajwEEVCMDYRTDKLRMOTVYz6 Zl6wFPUG+h+F7e4nBQKycxm1782NWsQAbDnZM2tzcagNmRSk6dBvn3ezg4GiabBGmg+R vWod6k1hvnM7ptOOqGYjHOw10PZYYlTh42uerr7K18yEbtsSo+BG52EOGcTJkVACBq+0 3Vnw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q08bfau2/F7LJiRaYok89x+UtXHTId/+tcIkbZMpoAs=; b=ErsYyXv+seCtnDtK3sTRYLFR3/nVj2bq/HSETKJO4l+JhOs9aRQ1JP4tSKodgDX4wu mjtjk+eGzzgh3CbOzVyBBvu6+mioabTWr+rOHiyhWQERRZeMh9PDYPky8N/6Pnjv2aFa TdM5/rIyPqPpBSJPwGxgNRS/ZD8AkNJ+N/baKlAx7jg2kvJz+DvTr8eB0oMqtqnELUqk i+ACr1HfEAG4fPwBv9kAA3u5wZD0kJqs3VlJxQzjFA3hdjHNL3RWq9msyqsaVXxKzNZI pTXem4wjv+V6o12jCG192QN0Hxp9ykhLH+JJ4RG0bJP+Jiis8j9jrTakDa0FBIq7hJH8 yQzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7GTPZe1fokHUB+OgXj/w8ns4+GrAueOsHHamq8IYjRQ6AT1FUzW ufmoXpAqSK2j7/4aT4Ln7yG+eZGJSTaJ5cJGODIrpQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsw73loU/znY2o3JrRabZmyj3U0yxP1KEGvfDKEwuL7N1rAJD1oh1FWdwfReB9AiLtpvJx7+HOWFmWTk8Yjsfg= X-Received: by 10.200.42.177 with SMTP id b46mr14816512qta.321.1521138757331; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:32:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.37.234 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:31:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:31:56 +0000 Message-ID: To: Tony Przygienda Cc: The IESG , Reshad , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113b032848fe25056777b7c7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:32:44 -0000 --001a113b032848fe25056777b7c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 3:09 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 1:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> Thanks for updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about >> the following section: >> >> It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single >> administrative domain. There can be deployments where potential >> attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing >> domain. In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms >> such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used. >> >> First, why are you assuming that BIER will be run within a single >> administrative domain. That's not generally the case for multicast >> now, is it? Or is it merely that OSPF will generally be run within >> a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside >> a single administrative domain you won't want to use OSPF? >> > > Eric, > > OSPF is normally run within a single AD (at least I never saw it > stretching > ADs unless we talk about DMZ as such a thing > or consider overlays running OSPF though > the overlays are their own ADs) due to the way the protocol is designed. > In fact, it does not carry AS as a concept anywhere (modulo some > corner-cases > such as 4577 where AS is encoded in tags), instead it talks about > ASBR which is the AS border OSPF touches (and where AS > external routes can be injected). So I don't think any inter-AS > considerations for this draft are relevant as they may have to in > IDR extensions. > Thanks. This makes the situation somewhat better, though if the routing traffic traverses insecure links, then there is still a risk. > > >> It's >> hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe >> the situation is if routing is subverted, but given the uses to >> which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some >> fairly large volumes of diverted traffic. >> >> Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume >> that the links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect that >> you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to >> ensure integrity. It seems like there are two ways to look at this: >> >> 1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous >> (weak) standards apply. >> >> 2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kind of >> thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern >> standards should apply >> >> > >> At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, especially, but >> I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially >> my security co-ADs. >> > > > I would be interested why you lean towards the 2nd interpretation. > In my view, BIER is a very lightweight addition on top of OSPF and does > not > extend any of its primitives at all except using the standard way to > add some sub-TLVs using RFC7684 and RFC4915, both long > established OSPF concepts. In a sense it uses OSPF as > light-weight signalling only (and currently uses its computation results > to derive a set of BIER next-hops). Neither represents any > change in OSPF architecture or threat model IMO. > I agree that from an OSPF perspective, the changes are trivial, but that's not the question. As I understand BIER, the traffic pattern is significantly different from conventional unicast routing and therefore it's at minimum important to determine whether what we considered acceptable -- though regrettable -- properties of the routing system are in fact acceptable with BIER as well. I don't see any analysis of this in the document, or in the BIER architecture document. Is there some? If your concern is addressing what you describe as "weak" standard > OSPF security then I would venture to say that trying to put that into a > BIER OSPF signalling draft would be a poor choice of locus. Same for > BIER as forwarding plane/architecture security considerations. > What's weak here is that the document doesn't require that one *use* 7474, even in settings where the document acknowledges that it's insecure not to: It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single administrative domain. There can be deployments where potential attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing domain. In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used. As I said, that's not ideal, but it's the state we're in. -Ekr So, if we have to spell out that BIER OSPF signalling has the same > security profile as OSPF, yes, a good reference "boilerplate" would be > nice and > same for BIER as forwarding paradigm/architecture. > > thanks > > -- tony > > > > >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss >>> >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>> >>> >>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stat >>> ement/discuss-criteria.html >>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>> >>> >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt >>> >>> I have not yet reviewed this document in detail: >>> >>> Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV >>> permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF failures. >>> >>> This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your >>> threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the >>> case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to >>> point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be >>> documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the >>> same points and lists a few specific items to examine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> > --001a113b032848fe25056777b7c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 3:09 PM, Tony Przygienda <= tonysietf@gmail.co= m> wrote:


On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 1:= 26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
Thanks for updating = the security considerations. I have two concerns about
the follow= ing section:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is assumed that both = BIER and OSPF layer is under a single
=C2=A0 =C2=A0administrative= domain.=C2=A0 There can be deployments where potential
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain.=C2=A0 In these deployments, stronger authentica= tion mechanisms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0such as those specified in [RFC7474]= SHOULD be used.

First, why are you assuming that = BIER will be run within a single
administrative domain. That'= s not generally the case for multicast
now, is it? Or is it merel= y that OSPF will generally be run within
a single administrative = domain and if you are to run BIER outside
a single administrative= domain you won't want to use OSPF?

Eric,

OSPF is normally run within a single AD (at l= east I never saw it stretching
ADs unless we talk about DMZ = as such a thing
or consider overlays running OSPF though
the overlay= s are their own ADs) due to the way the protocol is designed.
In fact, it does not carry AS as a concept anywhere (modulo some corner-= cases
such as 4577 where AS is encoded in tags), instead it = talks about
ASBR which is the AS border OSPF touches (and wh= ere AS
external routes can be injected). So I don't thin= k any inter-AS
considerations for this draft are relevant as= they may have to in
IDR extensions.

Thanks. This makes the situation somewh= at better, though if the
routing traffic traverses insecure links= , then there is still a risk.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
It's
hard to tell from the BIER security con= siderations how severe
the situation is if routing is subverted, = but given the uses to
which multicast is put, it seems like it co= uld result in some
fairly large volumes of diverted traffic.

Second, even within an administrative domain, it's= not safe to assume
that the links are in fact safe, so generally= one would expect that
you would run communications security on a= t the routing protocol to
ensure integrity. It seems like there a= re two ways to look at this:

1. We are just extend= ing OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(weak) s= tandards apply.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
2. We are basically desig= ning routing for an entirely new kind of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0thing (BIER= ), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sta= ndards should apply
=C2=A0

At present, I lean towards the sec= ond interpretation, especially, but
I'd like to hear what the= other members of the IESG think, especially
my security co-ADs.<= /div>


I would be intereste= d why you lean towards the 2nd interpretation.
In my view, B= IER is a very lightweight addition on top of OSPF and does not
extend any of its primitives at all except using the standard way to
add some sub-TLVs using RFC7684 and RFC4915, both long
established OSPF concepts. In a sense it uses OSPF as
light-weight signalling only (and currently uses its computation results
to derive a set of BIER next-hops). Neither represents any
=
change in OSPF architecture or threat model IMO.

I agree that from an OSPF per= spective, the changes are trivial,
but that's not the questio= n. As I understand BIER, the traffic
pattern is significantly dif= ferent from conventional unicast routing
and therefore it's a= t minimum important to determine whether
what we considered accep= table -- though regrettable -- properties
of the routing system a= re in fact acceptable with BIER as well.

I don'= ;t see any analysis of this in the document, or in the BIER
archi= tecture document. Is there some?


If your concern is addressing w= hat you describe as "weak" standard
OSPF security t= hen I would venture to say that trying to put that into a
BI= ER OSPF signalling draft would be a poor choice of locus.=C2=A0 Same for
BIER as forwarding plane/architecture security considerations.=

What's wea= k here is that the document doesn't require that one *use* 7474,
<= div>even in settings where the document acknowledges that it's insecure= not
to:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is assumed= that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single
=C2=A0 =C2=A0adm= inistrative domain.=C2=A0 There can be deployments where potential
=C2=A0 =C2=A0attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF ro= uting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain.=C2=A0 In these deployments, stronger a= uthentication mechanisms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0such as those specified in = [RFC7474] SHOULD be used.

As I said, that= 9;s not ideal, but it's the state we're in.

-Ekr


So, if we have to spell out that BIER OSPF signalling has= the same
security profile as OSPF, yes, a good reference &qu= ot;boilerplate" would be nice and
same for BIER as forw= arding paradigm/architecture.

thanks

-- tony


=C2=A0

-Ekr








<= div class=3D"m_407113826079965039gmail-m_5693685534740078456HOEnZb">

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, E= ric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot pos= ition for
draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/



-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt

I have not yet reviewed this document in detail:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV
=C2=A0 =C2=A0permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF fai= lures.

This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your
threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the
case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to
point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the
same points and lists a few specific items to examine.






_________= ______________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



--001a113b032848fe25056777b7c7-- From nobody Thu Mar 15 11:35:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86A9124217 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:35:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gQ9fLy88_MS7 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D94F12D77C for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id s78so8375421qkl.8 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:35:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tsLntWW2DidmVaT7xCap2fqmsHn1TPlTSzLIjF93mV4=; b=WKmjAmRQfJ4QkGHsOfm7MDVxH9/fG01Pjk8/Vq0VzJY4BiVYaR4by/wiUYCfPPKIp+ kustz2dka5SgezgpjIBrYqHcs3WiI+6Hwb/ZcaqF1A7EbsrB6PK9mwHGoNJ4EWPc5cny yPr6WhTCfy6oqdafJux4wzlnpS2UsBiT/Sbw0oh//Zkoj624qonImXUwa7S4Eta9FtC+ LayOXvovON6POqzsh+hiYy84re6OUaXu2Af0tSEaydfM6Q1GGQINt83hovobIRl4p89r h61N0gzeoaGMzA4sU1wWFQPQTMyUpERKstyzNSwMVixH2QsI212T0Q17h3wkjZkZrJXC ATAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tsLntWW2DidmVaT7xCap2fqmsHn1TPlTSzLIjF93mV4=; b=SLdSj9W09rZaQjgfCg8CML1pkxD1jXsxeh+xv1PEOF3CibasBlTW4eKqVGQA9W5fiM uV5Pb2iDeVq2uGP0N3SwDD03UkJ6upJdeDOWQ+EN99G3Jut2ldgwkM51klQFenaHQDZX k441STdAF3OhIPPMsRml5q+SEf/tUcWxZS9ANWHVu3A9Kbi1YZpDIdxwc9LTVSQKqst1 HEEqvYXepSPSasu4chkzJjwfXzvmZXKpfdQ/v8pghRAAZWqXqncVxlxbH1ASEf3ndsNW tqxHtB9S80IextLVl27SJaWh9qkkTYf472b7ZofzZLGx3SfGJa2x8oPoBr6li5DCh4tc Ec4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HdVPo+SqUXv8DqSXqF9EbqB3xxw3sbdb+rIAaIHM/ETgZB6Yt6 b4quHdNlqqqsgXJZzzOV4iMPOscBKPNppPQ7R9HH+A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELv6lHKl2X7kUUwlNLjNVOMSACgCfnUW+NQBLYEbM6VPfvL5ZLAX8T/iwa6gJZHdy093yKMGOVb4GiLfHbkq49Y= X-Received: by 10.55.192.151 with SMTP id v23mr14304777qkv.83.1521138942296; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:35:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.37.234 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:35:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:35:01 +0000 Message-ID: To: Alia Atlas Cc: Acee Lindem , The IESG , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114797c64f6099056777c24a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:35:49 -0000 --001a114797c64f6099056777c24a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:24 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi Eric, > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 4:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> Thanks for updating the security considerations. I have two concerns about >> the following section: >> >> It is assumed that both BIER and OSPF layer is under a single >> administrative domain. There can be deployments where potential >> attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing >> domain. In these deployments, stronger authentication mechanisms >> such as those specified in [RFC7474] SHOULD be used. >> >> First, why are you assuming that BIER will be run within a single >> administrative domain. That's not generally the case for multicast >> now, is it? Or is it merely that OSPF will generally be run within >> a single administrative domain and if you are to run BIER outside >> a single administrative domain you won't want to use OSPF? It's >> hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe >> the situation is if routing is subverted, but given the uses to >> which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some >> fairly large volumes of diverted traffic. >> > > Practical deployments of multicast are in single forwarding domains today. > If there is desire to support multicast between administrative domains, it > would > likely extend BGP for the inter-domain interactions. OSPF is an IGP which > is > always a single administrative domain. It has complete shared trust in > the > distributed routing database to support the distributed SPF computation. > > Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume >> that the links are in fact safe, so generally one would expect that >> you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to >> ensure integrity. It seems like there are two ways to look at this: >> > > I believe that RFC 7474 is providing an authentication mechanism that > provides > integrity-protection and prevents against replay. It isn't private - but > untrusted > links for listening are very different than being able to inject packets. > Regardless, > RFC 7474 provides that protection. > I agree that 7474 would be adequate. My concern whether the weak requirement for it (in general not at all and only SHOULD-level even when the OSPF traffic crosses admin domains) is adequate for the kind of traffic that is being routed here. When one examines the data in the BIER header, it is fundamentally expected > to > change at every hop and is network data. The user-data in the packets, > can, of course > be protected by the end-to-end applications. > Agreed. Without studying it in detail, this initially seems like a reasonable answer for BIER itself. -Ekr > Regards, > Alia > > >> At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, especially, but >> I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially >> my security co-ADs. >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss >>> >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>> >>> >>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stat >>> ement/discuss-criteria.html >>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>> >>> >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/ >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt >>> >>> I have not yet reviewed this document in detail: >>> >>> Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV >>> permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF failures. >>> >>> This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your >>> threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the >>> case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to >>> point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be >>> documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the >>> same points and lists a few specific items to examine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> > --001a114797c64f6099056777c24a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:24 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>= wrote:
Hi Eric,<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
O= n Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 4:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrot= e:
Thanks for updat= ing the security considerations. I have two concerns about
the fo= llowing section:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is assumed that b= oth BIER and OSPF layer is under a single
=C2=A0 =C2=A0administra= tive domain.=C2=A0 There can be deployments where potential
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0attackers have access to one or more networks in the OSPF routing=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain.=C2=A0 In these deployments, stronger authen= tication mechanisms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0such as those specified in [RFC7= 474] SHOULD be used.

First, why are you assuming t= hat BIER will be run within a single
administrative domain. That&= #39;s not generally the case for multicast
now, is it? Or is it m= erely that OSPF will generally be run within
a single administrat= ive domain and if you are to run BIER outside
a single administra= tive domain you won't want to use OSPF? It's
hard to tell= from the BIER security considerations how severe
the situation i= s if routing is subverted, but given the uses to
which multicast = is put, it seems like it could result in some
fairly large volume= s of diverted traffic.

P= ractical deployments of multicast are in single forwarding domains today.
If there is desire to support multicast between administrative dom= ains, it would
likely extend BGP for the inter-domain interaction= s.=C2=A0 OSPF is an IGP which is
always a single administrative d= omain.=C2=A0 It has complete shared trust in the=C2=A0
distribute= d routing database to support the distributed SPF computation.=C2=A0
<= span class=3D"">

Second, even within an administrative domain, it's = not safe to assume
that the links are in fact safe, so generally = one would expect that
you would run communications security on at= the routing protocol to
ensure integrity. It seems like there ar= e two ways to look at this:

<= div>I believe that RFC 7474 is providing an authentication mechanism that p= rovides
integrity-protection and prevents against replay.=C2=A0 I= t isn't private - but untrusted
links for listening are very = different than being able to inject packets.=C2=A0 Regardless,
RF= C 7474 provides that protection.=C2=A0
=

I agree that 7474 would be adequate. My concern whether= the weak requirement
for it (in general not at all and only SHOU= LD-level even when the OSPF traffic
crosses admin domains) is ade= quate for the kind of traffic that is being routed
here.


=
When one examine= s the data in the BIER header, it is fundamentally expected to=C2=A0
<= div>change at every hop and is network data.=C2=A0 The user-data in the pac= kets, can, of course
be protected by the end-to-end applications.=

Agreed. Without st= udying it in detail, this initially seems like a reasonable answer for BIER=
itself.

-Ekr


Regards,
Alia
= =C2=A0
At present, I lean towards the second interpretati= on, especially, but
I'd like to hear what the other members o= f the IESG think, especially
my security co-ADs.

-Ekr











On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com= > wrote:
Eric Rescorla has = entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions/



-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

Document: draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-12.txt

I have not yet reviewed this document in detail:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Implementations must assure that malformed TLV and Sub-TLV
=C2=A0 =C2=A0permutations do not result in errors which cause hard OSPF fai= lures.

This is not an adequate security considerations section. What is your
threat model? What attacks are possible? What are not? It may be the
case that this is all covered in other documents, and you just need to
point to them, but the reader doesn't know that, so this needs to be documented. Adam Montville's SECDIR review which makes some of the
same points and lists a few specific items to examine.






__________________________________________= _____
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



--001a114797c64f6099056777c24a-- From nobody Thu Mar 15 11:41:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6A912D77C for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T4sdgENJH4_Y for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B616124217 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id h14so2928869qkj.11 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:41:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xcQlY9SLY8ptvq88+KhZOFWPuQrp9IQDz76MpvjzE4c=; b=EVg4Rv4jJKMTZfIGPUs2xcnhCqlTLwnSog/iO/ygKLmqIA6XuKpBbEErKlZRzPjeEi j/uxtQatA/NhZLPSi2rRZtg0HluOmHCHyqVsPm8/kJb9HPDbhea4NoJQZ6GMAFAF1DAE E1dpUh1dDsqZCKSnx0lnaVKqOCTt5mMfqOYgJJaL0zlYOcX9yW9XJTKmaq+fMGhR8Mhn XmiKo5/Bt+xkWEOXTyYAo0nyg+x2JLFCv8o5Xg2I7XRp5QdJxaBixFKhzGDVnbHLmCQR AOJAx/smPpeOoE3RY6+68kvcg4vbDorkzZa2Br5A+q3saIqKF5zoRtd83s/3IcpYBre4 4nMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xcQlY9SLY8ptvq88+KhZOFWPuQrp9IQDz76MpvjzE4c=; b=g3NC2uKs08NF8K31waIrQt6cjV5A+yImfqfMF265rPFQ258OR17l81dRRy4AIfK2f/ sSfqMyR0YrKoE7Q7spcUkgU2j8vgkCnnqCvt8dNUfXLfRcPO/NGO4oyTDJqb6cWVvb9s wadI+1ROD1tQMwYSH/ToqHKE5ShILpCOuOvUMQoEs1nfpP2ztkT+gwDEHTf2/auZrerJ bdwRWMaiGJXttvEPwWe8+DPses8eOiGuLUZ4foH4KsbBPz7f7A5FvdIGmYnbS9Qhv1Fn ltZ3XK0yrIHe95p3+ORzph0nLx8VRLHeOSexAmwjW4OIaIcwiD1+IeJhrZ9YRVtSjbwS Lzsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Eo3KGVVCpvIyWGD3aXF5nJK2qrivw5rE/wHPZzMkGQ79Ibe5n8 XffgrWn+0fLNh7tBrLL4IAqprIpUVX72Hzli1RQacQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsX7vYuRBJqmM/H67W4lsUB4+tKINdUv96na4OwBhyCh/v5wljh5tQJHnc8qLL1cCIC7HAHF5btA4D4Bu43eE8= X-Received: by 10.55.118.6 with SMTP id r6mr14708939qkc.211.1521139301646; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:41:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.37.234 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:41:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <22d87ac3-eabd-784b-da03-8929e5cb00f5@juniper.net> References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <22d87ac3-eabd-784b-da03-8929e5cb00f5@juniper.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:41:01 +0000 Message-ID: To: Eric C Rosen Cc: The IESG , Reshad , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c062738ba9c38056777d7f2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:41:46 -0000 --94eb2c062738ba9c38056777d7f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I've already sent a few messages, so I'll skip to what I think is the main point On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 5:44 PM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > > It's >> hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe >> the situation is if routing is subverted, >> > > If the OSPF routing can be subverted, there is no limit to the amount of > damage that can be done to both unicast and multicast traffic. You could, > e.g., divert all unicast traffic that has certain destination addresses. > One has to remember that, with BIER, the path taken by a multicast packet > to get from A to B is generally the same as the path taken by a unicast > packet to get from A to B. Screw up the latter and you screw up the former. Perhaps this is where I am getting confused. Because this is multicast, what I'm concerned with is whether it's possible to manipulate the routing fabric to mount a serious amplification attack. E.g., to cause a set of packets which should only have been sent to a small number of hosts to be amplified and sent to a large number of hosts. This seems like would be qualitatively different from just rerouting unicast traffic. Is this possible (assuming that the routing layer is not secured?) -Ekr > > > but given the uses to >> which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some >> fairly large volumes of diverted traffic. >> > > Since BIER depends upon the soundness of the unicast routing, an attack on > the unicast routing could be used to screw up the multicast traffic. If > the unicast routing is not protected, there is hardly any point in > protecting the OSPF BIER extensions. That would be like leaving your front > door open and then being careful to lock your kitchen window. > > >> Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume >> that the links are in fact safe, >> > > Link layer security has been available for a long time. > > so generally one would expect that >> you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to >> ensure integrity. >> > > For an IGP, I'd think that you really want authentication to make sure > that every participant in the IGP is actually one of the routers that > belongs to the proper administration. > > It seems like there are two ways to look at this: >> >> 1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous >> (weak) standards apply. >> 2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kind of >> thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern >> standards should apply. >> >> At present, I lean towards the second interpretation, >> > > One has to remember that BIER depends upon the unicast routing that is > established by OSPF. It's not just that the OSPF packets have been > extended to carry BIER-specific information; the BIER traffic follows paths > that are computed by the (unicast) SPF algorithm from the (unicast) > topology information distributed by OSPF. > > So I think the proper conclusion is that better security for the IGPs > would benefit BIER, but authentication/integrity/privacy for just the > BIER-specific information carried by OSPF does not really provide anything > worthwhile. > > especially, but >> I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially >> my security co-ADs. >> >> > Even better would be to hear practical solutions to the routing security > problems! > > --94eb2c062738ba9c38056777d7f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've already sent a few messages, so I'll skip to = what I think is the main point

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 5:44 PM, Eric C Rosen <erosen@ju= niper.net> wrote:
It's
hard to tell from the BIER security considerations how severe
the situation is if routing is subverted,

 If the OSPF routing can be subverted, there is no limit to the amount of da= mage that can be done to both unicast and multicast traffic.=C2=A0 You coul= d, e.g., divert all unicast traffic that has certain destination addresses.= =C2=A0 One has to remember that, with BIER, the path taken by a multicast p= acket to get from A to B is generally the same as the path taken by a unica= st packet to get from A to B. Screw up the latter and you screw up the form= er.

Perhaps this is where I am getting conf= used. Because this is multicast, what I'm concerned with is whether it&= #39;s possible to manipulate the routing fabric to mount a serious amplific= ation attack. E.g., to cause a set of packets which should only have been s= ent to a small number of hosts to be amplified and sent to a large number o= f hosts. This seems like would be qualitatively different from just rerouti= ng unicast traffic. Is this possible (assuming that the routing layer is no= t secured?)

-Ekr
=C2=A0


but given the uses to
which multicast is put, it seems like it could result in some
fairly large volumes of diverted traffic.

 Since BIER depends upon the soundness of the unicast routing, an attack on = the unicast routing could be used to screw up the multicast traffic.=C2=A0 = If the unicast routing is not protected, there is hardly any point in prote= cting the OSPF BIER extensions.=C2=A0 That would be like leaving your front= door open and then being careful to lock your kitchen window.


Second, even within an administrative domain, it's not safe to assume that the links are in fact safe,

 Link layer security has been available for a long time.
so generally one would expect that
you would run communications security on at the routing protocol to
ensure integrity.

 =C2=A0For an IGP, I'd think that you really want authentication to make= sure that every participant in the IGP is actually one of the routers that= belongs to the proper administration.

It seems like there are two ways to look at this:

1. We are just extending OSPF to do a new thing, so the previous
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(weak) standards apply.
2. We are basically designing routing for an entirely new kind of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0thing (BIER), even though it happens to use OSPF, so modern =C2=A0 =C2=A0standards should apply.

At present, I lean towards the second interpretation,

 One has to remember that BIER depends upon the unicast routing that is esta= blished by OSPF.=C2=A0 It's not just that the OSPF packets have been ex= tended to carry BIER-specific information; the BIER traffic follows paths t= hat are computed by the (unicast) SPF algorithm from the (unicast) topology= information distributed by OSPF.

So I think the proper conclusion is that better security for the IGPs would= benefit BIER, but authentication/integrity/privacy for just the BIER-= specific information carried by OSPF does not really provide anything worth= while.

especially, but
I'd like to hear what the other members of the IESG think, especially my security co-ADs.


 Even better would be to hear practical solutions to the routing security pr= oblems!


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Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:59:03 -0700 Received: from [172.29.35.137] (66.129.241.13) by CY1PR05MB2298.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.192.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.588.7; Thu, 15 Mar 2018 18:59:00 +0000 To: Eric Rescorla Cc: The IESG , Reshad , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <22d87ac3-eabd-784b-da03-8929e5cb00f5@juniper.net> From: Eric C Rosen Message-ID: <45b40b35-dc98-fb23-e549-a7eda2aa6aeb@juniper.net> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 14:58:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.13] X-ClientProxiedBy: CO2PR07CA0060.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.174.192.28) To CY1PR05MB2298.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.192.144) X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: f0c7c139-8cc9-45e2-4663-08d58aa6d0ef X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:; 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E.g., to cause a set of packets which should > only have been sent to a small number of hosts to be amplified and > sent to a large number of hosts. This seems like would be > qualitatively different from just rerouting unicast traffic. Is this > possible (assuming that the routing layer is not secured?) One could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data packet's in-flight.  Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all the bits in the BIER BitString.  These attacks are mentioned in the Security Considerations section of RFC 8279. However, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS control messages that would cause an amplification attack. The BFIR decides which hosts are to receive a packet.  In making this decision, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating the encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulation for each destination host.  The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensions is used to construct the forwarding tables that map each bit in the encapsulation into a set of next hops for the host that is identified by that bit. If a BFR receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the packet and forward multiple copies.  However, a given bit will only be set in one copy of the packet. So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modifying the OSPF/ISIS messages. From nobody Fri Mar 16 12:39:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17AD1124D37 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:38:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rqnYOQeZAMcc for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F3CD124217 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id e7so13943844ioj.1 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:38:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=mFyrXhCgqcw/4v7X0XGZvSztOlvno7uKg7bFbPeMpzA=; b=qT4rLLv3HJAe0xznBpZ8sopSN7ha+O774NW6+160Jy6bAYheYL36bfzubyepKSoKfZ XO+UGcZHAtYIY5YCJoxl0aTVypaHgdLtBMZjNGAw59SmXRnF0wxziMaCoRozajtfcAFS tDmsn9HtJIwf94FjgF24JkjIFGL9Cjih/dMaiJpZ5txOhQhg5WnS5yxXVptbjrMXNInu Gf427Dg7nrCNZt0iNTj/hs6V50QMABmP2wyJJw9VShPCqQxywnJHFGx/gVyynt5PldK3 EBtWKHoZ98v86Kj2y67Uc03KQOpqZVXu4TQVHCEcNpRnOjgZdFJx+AX4Ap3O9xSlWDDf p3yw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=mFyrXhCgqcw/4v7X0XGZvSztOlvno7uKg7bFbPeMpzA=; b=bJkk8O/S4HNygolGYttQfieA7wAr/4A7f7tfT4Vf5HXORCVrRoQiAN9cNYqoabJsJ9 FWkmbbGDdLdqsVSoyiLwVkRG/9/0/jGALJM2Jy+vVSPUMXAHiefiVzr0OLXdY9m0JKjA BBfy+w9h4FLYodww8yamgVV6nFUAbBJLtk5TPCzWqSe1MUXP8PAj5rZp6ZLu3vR0kbNt Nv/L8s0dZfAmKZ+f0TCrZDa4VNLFO/TSwFMLPxBFbCOagbH2IcJLIsurtLZKnnQo3O36 CRZ7nc6qfNo9EyrdyAPzyrJNLY9bc1Z0+V1lM0YELQHNZtoN8DcHdBL/sHFqCml7oY0u 85Hw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7G06J7Ejd8HstTXDmJEf97VXu99szPW2rAjhjODKLzyUR0QbMnK eb6o/ZRxs8T4h0tM6PsrdM+LgA8vJOAk3iXBUkQYog== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtQjOhlI9NwoIBtde8ipFRvjdBuIMY4Ct009mPO4TLR9UJB//peGpWhNheXenrntbzGV0DN8LXfvDBhdDRngZ4= X-Received: by 10.107.16.65 with SMTP id y62mr3147270ioi.213.1521229136636; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:38:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.98.79 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:38:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113f22564fb68c05678cc236" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] IETF 101 BIER Agenda X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:38:59 -0000 --001a113f22564fb68c05678cc236 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" WG, London meeting will be tight. We only have a 90min slots, but easily 2hr worth of content, even after cutting requested times down. Please read and review. Thanks, Greg (Chairs) BIER WG Agenda IETF 101, London, UK Wednesday, 21 March 2018 13:00-15:00 Richmond/Chelsea/Tower Welcome, Notewell, Agenda bash 5min Chairs draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling 10min Bidgoli draft-zzhang-algorithms 10min Zhang draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa draft-venaas-bier-mtud-00 10min Venaas draft-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework 10min Eckert draft-ietf-bier-te-arch draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http 10min Purkayastha draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute 10min Sandy Zhang draft-zzhang-bier-rift draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination 10min Thubert draft-huang-bier-te-encapsulation 10min Huangyihong draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp 10min Ziejingrong draft-xiong-bier-resilience --001a113f22564fb68c05678cc236 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WG,

London meeting will be tight. We on= ly have a 90min slots, but easily 2hr worth of content, even after cutting = requested times down. Please read and review.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)

B= IER WG Agenda

IETF 101, London, UK
Wedne= sday, 21 March 2018 13:00-15:00
Richmond/Chelsea/Tower
=
Welcome, Notewell, Agenda bash 5min Chairs
draft-ietf-bier= -pim-signaling 10min Bidgoli
draft-zzhang-algorithms 10min Zhang
draft-= zzhang-bier-bar-ipa
draft-venaas-bier-mtud-00 10min Venaas
draf= t-eckert-teas-bier-te-framework 10min Eckert
draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http 10min Purkayastha
draft-zwzw-= bier-prefix-redistribute 10min Sandy Zhang
draft-zzhang-bier-rift
draft-thubert-bier-replication-elimination 10min Thubert
draft-huang-bier= -te-encapsulation 10min Huangyihong
draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp 10min Ziejingron= g
draft-xiong-bier-resilience
--001a113f22564fb68c05678cc236-- From nobody Fri Mar 16 12:50:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A0A124D37 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C-Hdr8-JJYPz for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E418124217 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id m22so13925880iob.12 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ivwsl6zlrr6rgxX8jRoPTmMMal1b8SlFFJ0Vp3ntfIk=; b=hvyERIQWW20NtvYCouFkM0ScqQEGGsqXSaGFlErMPtzmNbuvbtbsbtD7bXDNVa+Pc3 6rCGyj59+0DyQMW2NG9Q/3A3hd6ikFdvQOxUQ81vDJhShOuzbVhaDb0Exp++0ZjPHxb1 A2BAbHwR4KqFteEte83gL7beXPxjBJJBz9wJmo88kT/eXDH4h2q2kYJ/+meP5mepTXqy j89ci9VyN0ZQoa8yyT62G3knBwGGMip6JJwfFpZp7gQEim3yXhuHqtBrSSYiqzhv3lBG yCT/3GxV9LN3WkbFR5D254FFYS94jJxZcjGOYquB5kltD3go+BFab3itph++tNq6zvrX hphQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=ivwsl6zlrr6rgxX8jRoPTmMMal1b8SlFFJ0Vp3ntfIk=; b=Tw6fgmIc72cn6iCGvzI/zXuh1UqS5BIGeiGzUTtaiL/0t2hOu1H0ysc6C1LjFzR9i9 6w6C66efMLg9nFGbSufPoGT3In6RMIpGweBqN+exD8gdY7C+Sn5DDwPvasDLICGKKaO5 fvPCS4fvKjDkByE9TZCAC8JBenIRr2Aijg6DqyqVVSf/R5N9prnY0C1h39Sh5hjOEXeb TQvZkWm9AN6D2lCY9oh8iD1IIUqc670/Zt368X7A0Uc1VqK2nC9jFNtvG345IRnftUnH vGRZ/D1V9oh2jDJmhXM8EX1h/HIMu/aRQruR0lCI4TEJxXIUXElKkols0M5Fgy8lXh2P mDqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7G36h2VagB/lxOp5wLCtX87x/mgg0UI7apN5xUttlioRQ0geLpP pb8Wyzrn+kIJuW1qOR28yTDOcA2rqWaM975rlgNJrw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsCWZjuZK8H6XONIzq5+dinlQdB3gPOVk1V4juY5+ACnPOht8X51z5YzM2yO6LCtbhF5dPON1RDYuEKqH41Djg= X-Received: by 10.107.26.79 with SMTP id a76mr3345927ioa.36.1521229806601; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:50:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.98.79 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 12:50:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113fd0623ea97d05678cea4e" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BIER WG Presentations, IETF 101 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:50:09 -0000 --001a113fd0623ea97d05678cea4e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" WG, Please send you slides in asap so I can get them posted. If you have sent slides, please confirm that I have the latest version on the meeting materials page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/ Thanks, Greg (Chairs) --001a113fd0623ea97d05678cea4e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WG,

Please send you slides in asap so I= can get them posted. If you have sent slides, please confirm that I have t= he latest version on the meeting materials page:

<= a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/">https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/

Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)

--001a113fd0623ea97d05678cea4e-- From nobody Sat Mar 17 05:52:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2FE12711A; Sat, 17 Mar 2018 05:52:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.75.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: The IESG , bier@ietf.org, nabeel.cocker@nokia.com, Nabeel Cocker , draft-ietf-bier-mvpn@ietf.org, akatlas@gmail.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <152129112983.18531.6174677638343741182.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 05:52:09 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Protocol Action: 'Multicast VPN Using BIER' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-10.txt) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 12:52:10 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Multicast VPN Using BIER' (draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-10.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alvaro Retana, Alia Atlas and Deborah Brungard. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mvpn/ Technical Summary The Multicast Virtual Private Network (MVPN) specifications require the use of multicast tunnels ("P-tunnels") that traverse a Service Provider's backbone network. The P-tunnels are used for carrying multicast traffic across the backbone. A variety of P-tunnel types are supported. Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is a new architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "multicast domain", without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any per-flow state or to engage in an explicit tree-building protocol. This document specifies the protocol and procedures that allow MVPN to use BIER as the method of carrying multicast traffic over an SP backbone network. Working Group Summary The draft has been well received. Although this draft is currently Experimental, the BIER WG is in the middle of rechartering to be Standards Track and it is expected that a Status Update will change this draft in place to be Proposed Standard. Document Quality Based on the discussions at the WG (IETF 98/99) multiple implementations exist and in other cases vendors indicated a strong roadmap commitment. Personnel Document Shepherd: Nabeel Cocker Responsible Area Director: Alia Atlas RFC Editor Note Please change the Reference from "draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-expl-track" from Informative to Normative. From nobody Sun Mar 18 05:25:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 006F812704A; Sun, 18 Mar 2018 05:25:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zS-1cLLMaq-F; Sun, 18 Mar 2018 05:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x235.google.com (mail-lf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6DB9126CB6; Sun, 18 Mar 2018 05:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id t132-v6so21492104lfe.2; Sun, 18 Mar 2018 05:25:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=G2ytTg9/vaQSTvX3r9DtKsNoIHLZpmbdAqYnObLHEKk=; b=MjIdZ+3+OyuWTCpQwf6zhOt/S9IzZv/6iMKU4zQMlRejL8oKekOH3D/YRS3ctk5D9i /pdB8Bkv7za3Ou/Up2/0UbHxwet2UFv68jtVWWJANICam7lLy78u68ZaaFsgxFGC53t4 kyxWfserWx2+kBhylcvZBh7u8AG+5DkOEf5zgmWe45Z9O3Ig/7uxQSzRNatdDaS/tWu/ CBE1dNNtdeZloA0P+sXn89Ju184DKJaFckg37V4GMEt3pc4hBl1eZz8hHO0EQoOMr4ji QI3XCOfadWpq3qbM2LyplCrDw2ZPCxcTr41V5aAKTHs2KBBQgGKQG5YE1I3PaTzZ/t+3 Xmkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=G2ytTg9/vaQSTvX3r9DtKsNoIHLZpmbdAqYnObLHEKk=; b=tAraIsNJc+bJ/XaPmkaW91CgoXXqW6pJdSYmQckQXdFJupvsHXK1fMOGoqOesIhOcW XzpczkAkm0BDSI/flDakbLC3SNvsqyY+buY0o8qWTZIJlqF1JMeDjRmOoc+xM74D7cg/ YjFNWIw7Hwe2/M8mYB3wWAAPRW9FK6l5yLJ2O7UkoaZg4a2oJkz5JHlnILYmSo/m3bkH gPZ2hSXIqK0QcW8bTpXxd1W1eXYQMg7sU06uADWsS4GipHgsJpf54jBYpLDriHRr8+lR 6u6mhISkTQ74zZ9J/b52ZRNlrmZp6TQgYTqCr21em10ABRgukOU+dsuEuEKnRuYg0wlu p9ow== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Gt3aWvXBl+Xw/2oG6n1DLyK+0IhHQeVxxj3z0K1watVCrZnU3I czn505tMy+mIQ7eBlI2m2K+RaeXCAK9rz6+ZgbQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtrOpaX98vbWZR9MrQyg9sT4i1/hEzMEXf/7eXGKi/kzVxZGU25VrCC9DDEjloVq5iY1S5RdnFfEPalBw/IIbs= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4acd:: with SMTP id x196-v6mr1203066lfa.138.1521375920845; Sun, 18 Mar 2018 05:25:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.145.195 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Mar 2018 05:25:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <152137493491.30148.10354340169701060496.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <152137493491.30148.10354340169701060496.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 05:25:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: nvo3@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054f8f00567aeef39" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header-04.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 12:25:26 -0000 --00000000000054f8f00567aeef39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, this draft got refreshed with the latest references to new RFC. We'll have discussion at NVO3 WG meeting. Welcome your comments, questions and suggestions, as always. Regards, Greg ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 5:08 AM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header-04.txt To: Nagendra Kumar , Gregory Mirsky < gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Deepak Kumar , Li Yizhou < liyizhou@huawei.com>, David Dolson , Mach Chen < mach.chen@huawei.com> A new version of I-D, draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header-04.txt has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header Revision: 04 Title: OAM Header for use in Overlay Networks Document date: 2018-03-18 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ooamdt-rtgwg- ooam-header-04.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam- header/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam- header-04 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ooamdt-rtgwg- ooam-header Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam- header-04 Abstract: This document introduces Overlay Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OOAM) Header to be used in overlay networks to create Overlay Associated Channel (OAC) to ensure that OOAM control packets are in-band with user traffic and de-multiplex OOAM protocols. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --00000000000054f8f00567aeef39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
this draft got refreshed with the latest ref= erences to new RFC.

We'll have discussion at N= VO3 WG meeting. Welcome your comments, questions and suggestions, as always= .

Regards,
Greg

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, Mar= 18, 2018 at 5:08 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ooamdt-= rtgwg-ooam-header-04.txt
To: Nagendra Kumar <naikumar@cisco.com>, Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Deepak Kumar <= dekumar@cisco.com>, Li Yizhou &= lt;liyizhou@huawei.com>, Davi= d Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@hua= wei.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header-04.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-heade= r
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A004
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 OAM Header for use in Overlay Netw= orks
Document date:=C2=A0 2018-03-18
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 11
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ooamdt-= rtgwg-ooam-header-04.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-hea= der/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header-04 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam= -header
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ooamdt-rtgwg-= ooam-header-04

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document introduces Overlay Operations, Administration, a= nd
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maintenance (OOAM) Header to be used in overlay networks to cr= eate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Overlay Associated Channel (OAC) to ensure that OOAM control p= ackets
=C2=A0 =C2=A0are in-band with user traffic and de-multiplex OOAM protocols.=




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--00000000000054f8f00567aeef39-- From nobody Mon Mar 19 06:09:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61E712DA1A; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.75.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152146497663.24331.12303068811080092242@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:09:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-11.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 13:09:47 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : Multicast VPN Using BIER Authors : Eric C. Rosen Mahesh Sivakumar Sam K Aldrin Andrew Dolganow Tony Przygienda Filename : draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-11.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2018-03-19 Abstract: The Multicast Virtual Private Network (MVPN) specifications require the use of multicast tunnels ("P-tunnels") that traverse a Service Provider's backbone network. The P-tunnels are used for carrying multicast traffic across the backbone. A variety of P-tunnel types are supported. Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is a new architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "multicast domain", without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any per-flow state or to engage in an explicit tree-building protocol. This document specifies the protocol and procedures that allow MVPN to use BIER as the method of carrying multicast traffic over an SP backbone network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mvpn/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-mvpn-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 19 06:18:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5F612704A for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t5laYKQ2mn60 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3124F1242F5 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id x82so2786242wmg.1 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:18:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=UVf7KX5kg5sCzP1Hd33MJyr8ijMTJ+zA+f7UAhbyU+Q=; b=ZFNtfjXPKkA1ekLfUbFgXtb7VThU9u6jdDtcXMa4fLpVdSpa3R9UqxbUPKMsHjKhcQ f+gueJeGoTArxESYlEUhqvADw4YHyxEv5e0Z27oXePbsW+c1YZlVbrOztnx3dW3iD2K+ L58HH5HQF4X9g5ly/+cB+PYC1grv+9g7QLvYFntAlAudRhE3h0ET5q/EFHxGhRN/1QMt UlP3RqBN5iOLPlBsQXwfFXRKjRQOeYqWqr119EtRI/loNXZl5AgO6KpaY9eRWNWHCcMB xXgLP2gAWQP5qC++/mh76xC54VFOfn/4FvZrzL280EBAYe5wxc7d96boNEgfVPXVYk1g KeBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=UVf7KX5kg5sCzP1Hd33MJyr8ijMTJ+zA+f7UAhbyU+Q=; b=iaJ6bgKEuuBubl3HaalSvCuhTxcWWPTthJdKYqX0cEbAbLCWmwqUzzqhhXa/JFuozY ZFwSaRhknVCbQRxyZtGeB5iRgKNDOkXWp/P45vFoG3hFs1Lw1WAM9YVY3Rdha6Hjo7CM vjDpnkIpAShq9B78r76GUSmRYg0WBnwziOERyveft2SqCGW2ztoSyC9bkntw9ndixIWz LHgrJiuOXjQwNea8gWCPKv2s8AG0d/7iJB6tzfMhYsDyDbxTHzBhrDeNNTlyiBg2mxeU p8wiIcQ2yxStwATzOqHm1MwFTyJgPYdQxuPDgwavn6vbAISeMjKm7TW83+hFveW6lCdb 9RRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7GsuDy0tl6nb/gA1+MDYq5JUSlcf1OpYOiian3vfp82KiWdGiSH OjZewGhGaaQOTKLtjcHfp/Js/D58k7ecPnUfP1OHgqQ9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELu0snJJPDC2cnBuCvWe/Tm3Kf/wBiB5e5v3zmQ36UMyClObGvX4J3o/mDZr89Ya8lrG85RsAo8rIG8CIguIibM= X-Received: by 10.80.164.193 with SMTP id x1mr13553252edb.156.1521465533652; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:18:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:18:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Przygienda Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 13:18:13 +0000 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0e4654abe10b0567c3cc16" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 13:18:57 -0000 --94eb2c0e4654abe10b0567c3cc16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Read with interest draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute. Comments 1. Figure 2 is mildly confusing. Where is area 0? Once we have area 0 the current OSPF RFC (upcoming) is already dealing with redistribution within OSPF. So I think a realistic problem is redistributing from OSPF into ISIS or vice versa (or multiple instances of OSPF/ISIS edge/core facing) ... 2. The really hard problem of how to prevent redistribution loops is not tackled. As long we assume a star topology the tie-breaking is trivial but when e.g. two ASBRs from two different OSPF areas attach to ISIS we already have a problem and even worse if spokes have e.g. ASBR shortcuts to prevent going through the backbone. And what happens if two different protocols pick up same BFR-id or advertise conflicting information. Basically we need a DV/PV protocol to make that work in generic sense. 3. Alternately we could introduce the concept of a proxy-BFR that advertises a BFR-id into two subdomains and forwards between them but I think when this is thought through it will looks like PMSI stitching and with that implode into MVPN overlay solution doing inter-domain multicast. Let's see the discussion on the floor --- tony --94eb2c0e4654abe10b0567c3cc16 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Read with interest draft-zwzw-bie= r-prefix-redistribute. Comments

1. Figure 2 is mildly confusi= ng. Where is area 0? Once we have area 0 the current OSPF RFC (upcoming) is= already dealing with redistribution within OSPF. So I think a realistic pr= oblem is redistributing from OSPF into ISIS or vice versa (or multiple inst= ances of OSPF/ISIS edge/core facing) ...
2. The really hard probl= em of how to prevent redistribution loops is not tackled. As long we assume= a star topology the tie-breaking is trivial but when e.g. two ASBRs from t= wo different OSPF areas attach to ISIS we already have a problem and even w= orse if spokes have e.g. ASBR shortcuts to prevent going through the backbo= ne. And what happens if two different protocols pick up same BFR-id or adve= rtise conflicting information. Basically we need a DV/PV protocol to make t= hat work in generic sense.
3. Alternately we could introduce the c= oncept of a proxy-BFR that advertises a BFR-id into two subdomains and forw= ards between them but I think when this is thought through it will looks li= ke PMSI stitching and with that implode into MVPN overlay solution doing in= ter-domain multicast.=C2=A0

Let's see the discussion on t= he floor

--- tony
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Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:03:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:02:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Przygienda Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 16:02:23 +0000 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c4434c3c5860567c6175a" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Comments on draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 16:03:09 -0000 --f403045c4434c3c5860567c6175a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Read the draft and here are couple comments a) The reasoning for doing the proposed "BIER over standard multicast signalling built tunnels" is not completely clear to me. Best reason I see is to decouple the chosen paths from normal IGP paths for which I think we have alternate, probably longer-term simpler solutions i) BIER-TE ii) built-in MT support ii) Special BIER computations using SPF variants in IGP or ultimately BAR The other reason I see is the "simplification of BIER forwarding procedures" but given we seem to be building tree state (per what?) in the core anyway, what does BIER "simplified forwarding" improve over traditional multicast here is a little bit lost on me b) The changing of Entropy Field meaning is architecturally misplaced IMO. As you state, this is not a function of BIER layer but the overlay, either end-2-end application or something else. I don't think we should go into this direction albeit it is always tempting to "mash layers together" to increase "efficiency" short-term. looking fwd' to discussion in the group --- tony --f403045c4434c3c5860567c6175a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Read the draft and here are coupl= e comments

a) The reasoning for doing the proposed "BIER = over standard multicast signalling built tunnels" is not completely cl= ear to me. Best reason I see is to decouple the chosen paths from normal IG= P paths for which I think we have alternate, probably longer-term simpler s= olutions
=C2=A0 i)=C2=A0=C2=A0 BIER-TE
=C2=A0 ii) bu= ilt-in MT support
=C2=A0 ii)=C2=A0 Special BIER computations using= SPF variants in IGP or ultimately BAR
=C2=A0 The other reaso= n I see is the "simplification of BIER forwarding procedures" but= given we seem to be building tree state (per what?) in the core anyway, wh= at does BIER "simplified forwarding" improve over traditional mul= ticast here is a little bit lost on me
b) The changing of Entropy = Field meaning is architecturally misplaced IMO. As you state, this is not a= function of BIER layer but the overlay, either end-2-end application or so= mething else. I don't think we should go into this direction albeit it = is always tempting to "mash layers together" to increase "ef= ficiency" short-term.

looking fwd' to discussion= in the group

--- tony
--f403045c4434c3c5860567c6175a-- From nobody Mon Mar 19 09:25:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729D312D7E5 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:25:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tduUFmx9eqQn for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22d.google.com (mail-wm0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47E26126DCA for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id l16so7528675wmh.3 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Oky8pMekPVTD60SkD9cWvwCQT4UMRqXjUdpuhLPYT2I=; b=UM8A4B/iDxPyea5er/6rhTY4ndz5X9Nia5lfasePWlSMAmd+3WTKxBHrqUEc6Ghgs7 zDdHAKUPeirIMniPZ7oObw8eTPnDW+B2JCIPjPp9Vslaava0yQ4I/wx8jkTdwzlmMPj1 6USL61vbp3B48aO7lA6WIsjdCu0lYb2R97S4tzzdOF53PoZ6YwXSOBb9AwSL4Cy2Elsm bbK/g60dbsCnyuFRSKmCbXsr3/Wq+uVPnnZLTFGw+IPkF13M2pMT6KnL13GXPKPrntdz 7UZDEv7WbsYkf76dYPl6Upte+lj0Xo9F8FtO4q3caVHLN3130uKtW6hfWQ26w3VXkrEm 7jFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Oky8pMekPVTD60SkD9cWvwCQT4UMRqXjUdpuhLPYT2I=; b=dJYnBv3+kpHBWp12iv4aRiGwckGm3odEB/NYRpv0tKmo/cEMLYCe6mxseYMLRheizK pJEX+iZwcIw92hL0fvCw1Bby5zsEKLmKkcBAVbMzTkFxVvwpJzHLelZ22ViBxM6etggG TzIkUzWOKHQ2g5Pne9ksHa2tkuVjv0pUBU3Chbh39uzKnMBYW27oVvJb4MgLUO1xEW+m LuIETuW6FrS1igGvHwY5Iv9SV4pNyDuBTdfeEn0InPQybMp9muxFc6zwZGHuJHo0fs5E NnhMDUZcrYBuiYWgkWZNhBDycsci3NXIJyo2q0dt2Yl4OE17icc6qGfNtKsRKF4JvAbq e4rQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7H9sr/07Sv2VsnmmuWVCnN2h3SePDnTicrZm274M7mkBFrFQbFF GEqP6jokwdcj/8K7xfls9Y9udQ/LwNBHYOQfrrVMYJHP X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtfBNG6WbL6yvDxaLgzD53ulOMlnmQYaqnSGgPwRvvV05WKAoilGAUtAuR6T/sUQnTTAYX+pMwf5/9Im8f1fzs= X-Received: by 10.80.231.18 with SMTP id a18mr14226332edn.240.1521476702783; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:24:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Przygienda Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 16:24:22 +0000 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e082f6340674de50567c666bc" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 16:25:06 -0000 --089e082f6340674de50567c666bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Comments: a) " Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above definition of a BIER interface, determines the *largest* payload that can be sent BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER interfaces in the sub- domain. " The language here is unclear. Is that the *MIN*(all used subdomain interface MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense. b) May merit a section saying that albeit this is much lighter-weight than I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely pessimistic since it always picks up the smallest link in the whole subdomain c) "MTU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu, link mtu, interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the precise way is to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ... --- tony --089e082f6340674de50567c666bc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Comments:

a)=C2=A0 &= quot;
Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least
=C2=A0=C2= =A0 one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above definition=C2=A0=C2=A0 of a BIER interface, determines the largest payload th= at can be sent
=C2=A0=C2=A0 BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER int= erfaces in the sub-
=C2=A0=C2=A0 domain.
"

The lang= uage here is unclear. Is that the MIN(all used subdomain interface M= TUs) ? If so, then it makes sense.

b) May merit a section say= ing that albeit this is much lighter-weight than I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-dis= covery of course it can be widely pessimistic since it always picks up the = smallest link in the whole subdomain

c) "MTU in octets&q= uot; is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu, link mtu, interface mt= u and so on. The draft should specifiy what the precise way is to advertise= the "BIER MTU" here IMO ...

--- tony=C2=A0
--089e082f6340674de50567c666bc-- From nobody Mon Mar 19 09:39:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E07E126B6E for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:39:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ksZc9assrtJ for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E63512D875 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 6C06B85C2AE2F for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 16:39:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 16:39:17 +0000 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:39:07 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: Tony Przygienda , BIER WG CC: Mach Chen , Michael McBride , =?utf-8?B?TGlhbmcgR2VuZ3zogL/kuq4=?= Thread-Topic: [Bier] Comments on draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp Thread-Index: AQHTv5vZO66+u/dk4UqBSSX5vTv5JqPXvuPg Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 16:39:06 +0000 Message-ID: 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mail-lf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v207-v6so6961069lfa.10 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:33:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1/EPrUMaPd5WAq/tt1ropK3mziP33+gX8W4eRvtljbA=; b=pttpxXfItIuR93WBVGH8fAea3WHet9bh9mPoFfdlXQz9t4+flfyz+VOpbbkzrMzq9w ZuseTIL8EY9mHveDc1VtXk3jROXHnopz6zIqBqWflSTYiBTLTXGvlEsPdxwJ1JY/hQIU DTabw62Xqx3+sCIo27YjaMzAnDdCwUUDTsD8oFs3XQGYYNxzEoFPvDWCxcoS0ylAxDfC PuE27rPt5nApSyK7DTWIOzyxhNwOu7Bi7xLBDLXb7rKAn+jn8020zApgrGxREvbi7NTw uSCgcLhlhgIjHg8eNP3uku7qAMu4tjvLpNwQkPiEaChy5Gkyvz+D2IIeov5PaTinbn6O Jhvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1/EPrUMaPd5WAq/tt1ropK3mziP33+gX8W4eRvtljbA=; b=f6Tnu1/MhkrNDblS4ZZqULsTf8aaVrR7XtWwcP/bS+YzrHIDv5Ppi3cQcQkAxJpoes 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bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 17:33:26 -0000 --089e082b53a4befd1d0567c75af1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Authors, et. al, I understand the idea of aggregating MTU in the given BIER sub-domain but I'm concerned that if there are interfaces with significantly different MTUs, that the proposed approach may result in lower MTU being enforced on paths capable of larger MTU. The BIER PMTUD draft does provide per path information. Regards, Greg On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Comments: > > a) " > Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least > one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above definition > of a BIER interface, determines the *largest* payload that can be sent > BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER interfaces in the sub- > domain. > " > > The language here is unclear. Is that the *MIN*(all used subdomain > interface MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense. > > b) May merit a section saying that albeit this is much lighter-weight than > I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely pessimistic > since it always picks up the smallest link in the whole subdomain > > c) "MTU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu, link > mtu, interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the precise > way is to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ... > > --- tony > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --089e082b53a4befd1d0567c75af1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Authors, et. al,
I understand the idea of aggrega= ting MTU in the given BIER sub-domain but I'm concerned that if there a= re interfaces with significantly different MTUs, that the proposed approach= may result in lower MTU being enforced on paths capable of larger MTU. The= BIER PMTUD draft does provide per path information.

<= /div>
Regards,
Greg
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Tony Przygiend= a <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Comments:

a)= =C2=A0 "
Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least
= =C2=A0=C2=A0 one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above defi= nition
=C2=A0=C2=A0 of a BIER interface, determines the largest p= ayload that can be sent
=C2=A0=C2=A0 BIER encapsulated out of any of its= BIER interfaces in the sub-
=C2=A0=C2=A0 domain.
"

The language here is unclear. Is that the MIN(all used subdomain in= terface MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense.

b) May merit a se= ction saying that albeit this is much lighter-weight than I-D.ietf-bier-pat= h-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely pessimistic since it always= picks up the smallest link in the whole subdomain

c) "M= TU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu, link mtu= , interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the precise way i= s to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ...=

= --- tony=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--089e082b53a4befd1d0567c75af1-- From nobody Tue Mar 20 00:38:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF1D120724 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:38:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KNPk5lsUzAzI for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEC80124207 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id f19so1427834wmc.0 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:38:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xGRyreltQG51xMzXwNl+uMXPlhcvPy4z39nu1eyKkOE=; b=qTwrjr4z6mCf77E7GR8/ZWumnnzb45COotw7Ux9oJAZLVs+5WO83EqcRuLblQNKCU8 oblJp2MwOSdpdZ8C4ttnWl2RqYqJ32T0xXWlUccvGJU55mBkUGLMuFnoecAmG97DNlnf KRvB3KgISdK8403FbSbHitZ3DM7WGmAAuWheaUj2/d2RLcUA5+CzBNdLn/+UvclFHrGR kduhsOYCyJaNHUhbArSjfFSITT7QdT4jcUeudJ1gFy4phiPH9j/X8RyHhlTWlX9sqbOh bIG9lYFqDnDuHtGbYNFakhOSLc54B2RV63HBfX1qNfaWDoHFLdP+t2VXT7dySBQmYt2I FvqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=xGRyreltQG51xMzXwNl+uMXPlhcvPy4z39nu1eyKkOE=; b=BGS2mZ0boeBKwXs3jb1/VlXS29TGafKF1i028FUIZVkmCq/hIbiVObmX9lAAg+SHgJ UF7Vc5iQbjuON2lHTxiY03MeciGxYaqz/PCjWTx04QekbTPIY45k3BeZTn7u+lPs3Yi/ XwEYZM8Y+ORc8xBqw/Gr2tATBVmv0X4Eu9Qna7U9qH2pT+V2h5FqNAEOFFLFyt4IfmWa K6XDmouXsJagUp9dD8eoBqmTzLVoRVLnmA7QBJlMHOQP6gUXToNUtdSFVKqEODuYxqmr NcfIvFqUkq4mKNEOy5hAxrPRutMHtlCHtSH/j2LyhO7/A86m1JjlFSbjj12mBjfRixk5 1JlQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FG7MjPCBRSLUZztga6Lg5azHOQaihtOVVv70grEfZXQyDmEXqW /XE8WUf7S/cv6wsxHCrELO7VjBixAdYwKk1R4EPtzg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvyQKU9cptvFvwGQNICOlJJOi7MTVmYm4PWMfjfav9FpR2sK5fDw/F3g2emEq6FSjiLHyyKvK90q/sLCQQ8FzE= X-Received: by 10.80.182.167 with SMTP id d36mr4828862ede.250.1521531521029; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:38:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.80 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:38:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2A9604F5-3C94-4BE8-825D-DBE13FEDB222@jisc.ac.uk> <1519314397.743980027@f19.my.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:38:00 +0000 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c1946d35b050567d329fe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:38:48 -0000 --f403045c1946d35b050567d329fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brought T-shirts with me (it was overweight, grrh ;-) I'll be there 15 mins before the sessions. Would appreciate about ~15$ worth of currency per piece in exchange. More important, wear them to the session ;-) ... If not there to pick them up, enough people seemed like being on standby to get any spares ;-) --- tony On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Signed off proofs > > https://www.customink.com/proof_approvals/4546895?token=3D > 289e6c62-1796-11e8-ace8-0a92749b9112#proof_0_closeup > > they simplified colors a bit but looks OK to me ... Should have them 8th > or so ... > > --- tony > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: > >> Stig, yeah, you probably are reading other boring wg threads while I'm >> getting here the _real_ work done ;-) ;-) >> >> You snooze, you loose (but I'll see what my luggage can bear) ... >> >> --- tony >> >> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:01 AM, Stig Venaas wrote: >> >>> I guess it may be too late for me to request an XL? >>> >>> My fault for not paying attention to this important thread. >>> >>> Stig >>> >>> >>> On Feb 22, 2018 07:46, "Tony Przygienda" wrote: >>> >>> Your T-shirt is honorary on the group >>> >>> Thanks for the design >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from myMail for iOS >>> >>> >>> Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 23:54 -0800 from Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk < >>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>: >>> >>> Excellent, thanks Tony. >>> >>> The green is fine (we can call it bottle green!), and the logo is biiig >>> so I think Peter will catch us easily without a long lens :) >>> >>> I can pay in =C2=A3s or biers ... >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> On 22 Feb 2018, at 06:21, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>> >>> OK, order placed. Currently I'm planning to bring @ ~17$/each >>> >>> Andrew L >>> Alia XL >>> me L >>> GregS M >>> GregM 2L >>> Toerless XXL >>> Acee XL >>> Tim XXL >>> Ice XXL, XL, L >>> Les M >>> >>> I have more than this ordered but I have weight restrictions traveling >>> so don't beg, you had your chance ... >>> >>> Design below, the forest green was carefully considered by my 3 girls >>> here and approved as the only one passing minimum fashion bar. Sorrrrrr= y >>> ;-) >>> >>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier2/tst0-00bb-4gxq/share >>> ?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&utm_source=3Dshar >>> e%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&utm_content=3Dshared%20desktop >>> >>> you can always reorder or set up a group order >>> >>> The parties above are _obliged_ by a stiff penalty of paying a round of >>> beer after the workgroup meet to wear the T-shirt to the WG. If you >>> misjudged you size, I mis-quote our AD as in "It's NOT nice" but you ha= ve >>> to wear it anyway in some form or fashion ... Ice, you are granted a >>> special dispensation and it's enough you just wear one of the three but= we >>> encourage creative 3-t-shirt-fashion-statements ... Same for Greg. >>> Bandanas, Fez, diapers, possibilities are limitless ... >>> >>> I trust Peter L to bring one of his 50lb lenses to capture the occasion >>> ... >>> >>> --- tony >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote= : >>> >>> You are incorrect, Sir. Greg S is an M in T. S Ts often fit my torso >>> better, but they cut into my arm pits. For the record.. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 16:49, Tim Chown wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > Thanks for this - XXL (due the beer Stig forces me to drink ;) >>> > >>> > Tim >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:23, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Ah, now i know. >>> >> >>> >> There is Greg S&M and Greg M2L. >>> >> >>> >> That's easy to remember. ;-) >>> >> >>> >> [PC disclaimer: both this and my prior email on this thread where >>> tongue in cheek]. >>> >> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 01:01:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>> >>> Greg S =3D Shep >>> >>> Greg M =3D Mirsky >>> >>> >>> >>> You have been couple times around IETF, haven't you Toerless ;-) >>> [just >>> >>> tongue in cheek] >>> >>> >>> >>> albeit I agree that having the first letters of their last name >>> >>> corresponding to T-shirt sizing is an intriguing mystery of the >>> universe >>> >>> probably needing an entry in the Hitchhiker ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> --- tony >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Toerless Eckert >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> a) Thank you so much ! >>> >>>> >>> >>>> b) > GregS M >>> >>>>> GregM 2L >>> >>>> >>> >>>> hmm.. i am confused. >>> >>>> Looks as if we have Greg Small, Greg Medium, and 2 Greg Large, bu= t >>> who >>> >>>> is who... ;) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Cheers >>> >>>> Toerless >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:37:10PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>> >>>>> OK, I just realized I can only bring a certain amount of stuff >>> weight >>> >>>> wise >>> >>>>> anyway. I have currently >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Andrew L >>> >>>>> Alia ? >>> >>>>> me L >>> >>>>> GregS M >>> >>>>> GregM 2L >>> >>>>> Toerless XXL >>> >>>>> Acee XL >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I will order the following mix >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 10% XXL >>> >>>>> 20% XL >>> >>>>> 40% L >>> >>>>> 20% M >>> >>>>> 10% S >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> and bring as many I manage to London (expect 10 or so) along this >>> mix >>> >>>>> including the pre-ordered sizes if people want (looks about >>> 20$/pop). I >>> >>>>> will try to open a group order as well so e'one can just >>> additional ones >>> >>>>> (but of course I will not sign those as limited edition ;-) >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> check the design on >>> >>>>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier/tst0-00bb-1c6c/ >>> >>>> share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&utm_ >>> >>>> source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&utm_ >>> >>>> content=3Dshared%20desktop >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> and let me know whether it's acceptable. I pushed it down to 5 >>> colors and >>> >>>>> no back text to keep price in check ... >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Greg Shepherd >>> wrote: >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> :D >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Custom Ink. You'll need an account to buy anyway. Once a shirt i= s >>> >>>> designed >>> >>>>>> it can be shared and ordered at will. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Toerless Eckert >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Hah, clone of lmgtfy. You score one gotcha point. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Before responding to your first email, i tried four randomn >>> shops, and >>> >>>>>>> they >>> >>>>>>> all wanted my email to send me a quote. Too annoyed about that = to >>> >>>>>>> continue. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>> >>>>>>> toerless >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:29:36PM -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> http://bfy.tw/FXAz >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Toerless Eckert >> > >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Any recommendations for online services that print even a >>> single >>> >>>>>>> shirt ? >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Was wondering about the process today. Have not done it in a >>> long >>> >>>>>>> time. >>> >>>>>>>>> Back then >>> >>>>>>>>> low volume =3D iron-on process =3D some nasty rubbery carrier >>> >>>> material =3D=3D >>> >>>>>>> maybe >>> >>>>>>>>> even easier to do @home. Used to do it @home for proofing, bu= t >>> >>>> don't >>> >>>>>>> like >>> >>>>>>>>> results. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:06:16PM -0800, Greg Shepherd wrot= e: >>> >>>>>>>>>> T-'s online are fast and cheap. We could each just steal the >>> art >>> >>>>>>> and make >>> >>>>>>>>>> our own shirts. At our low count, I don't it will make a pri= ce >>> >>>>>>>>> difference. >>> >>>>>>>>>> There has been discussion about options. Point me to the art= . >>> >>>> I'll >>> >>>>>>> buy >>> >>>>>>>>> into >>> >>>>>>>>>> the default shirt, but I promise I will have my own one-off >>> BIER >>> >>>>>>> shirt >>> >>>>>>>>> too. >>> >>>>>>>>>> You've been warned. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Greg >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Toerless Eckert < >>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:13:18PM -0800, Tony Przygienda >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sizes pls ping to list here. I order a pile with spares an= d >>> >>>> I >>> >>>>>>> will >>> >>>>>>>>> try to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pinch 10-15$ poll tax in London for the historically >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> once-in-a-lifetime-but-survives-three-washes-only produce >>> >>>> ... >>> >>>>>>> If you >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pretend to be a student it maybe less ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> XXL if its good quality pre-shrunk cotton. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> XXXL otherwise. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what you can get for 10..15$ these days. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> And also: >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Vielen Dank >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Muchas Gracias >>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't speak F#$^*$% latin. >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Toerless >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so, BIER aficionados, shoot ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Jeff Tantsura < >>> >>>>>>>>> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +1! >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Tim Chown >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 15:05 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Tony Przygienda >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *"gjshep@gmail.com" , IJsbrand >>> >>>>>>> Wijnands < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky , >>> >>>> BIER WG >>> >>>>>>> < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org>, Stig Venaas , Toerless >>> >>>>>>> Eckert < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de>, Jeff Tantsura , >>> >>>> Loa >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Andersson < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> loa@pi.nu> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll email the high-res version to you and Greg offlist a= s >>> >>>>>>> it's >>> >>>>>>>>> quite >>> >>>>>>>>>>> big. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 22:11, Tony Przygienda < >>> >>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The last/gold one is _beautiful_. Let's replace the IETF >>> >>>> with >>> >>>>>>>>> RFC8279 >>> >>>>>>>>>>> and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> keep the hilarious "ABV3.7%" for the conoscenti and we're >>> >>>>>>> game I >>> >>>>>>>>> think >>> >>>>>>>>>>> ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 1:17 PM, Tim Chown < >>> >>>>>>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> More low-res options / colours attached. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Can encode Ethertype as ABV? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Play with https://www.beerlabelizer.com ;) You can >>> >>>> export >>> >>>>>>> pretty >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> high-res versions too. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm getting thirsty... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:47, Greg Shepherd >> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be nice too. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Tony Przygienda < >>> >>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, maybe more gold/black but otherwise, cool ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd still like to get the EtherType on it, that's a >>> >>>> biggie ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Another rev? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 12:09 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands < >>> >>>>>>> ice@cisco.com >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Love it :-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:39, Tim Chown >> >>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 16:08, Tony Przygienda < >>> >>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Suggest the clever text, Mr. Witty ;-) I would tend to >>> >>>> go >>> >>>>>>> with >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> black/gold on white, that is chintz ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Finding http://andyslusher.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/7- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sources-for-creating-your-own.html >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> led to the very fun to play with >>> >>>>>>> https://www.beerlabelizer.com/ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> resulting in the attached, the higher res version of whic= h >>> >>>>>>> could >>> >>>>>>>>> go on >>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> black or other tee, or on a bottle on a tee. Or not, but >>> >>>>>>> maybe >>> >>>>>>>>> there's >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration somewhere there ;) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Greg Shepherd < >>> >>>>>>> gjshep@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a fan of loads of mixed colors. Simple one or two >>> >>>>>>> colors, >>> >>>>>>>>>>> clever >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> text to make them think. I'd like the arch RFC and maybe >>> >>>> the >>> >>>>>>>>>>> ethertype. PIM >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> being hauled off on a bier (look it up) would be fun. :) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Tony Przygienda < >>> >>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa, thanks for the eclectic suggestion ;-) So that would >>> >>>> be >>> >>>>>>> black >>> >>>>>>>>> & >>> >>>>>>>>>>> gold >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on white with some quirky font? Stig concurs? ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:23 PM, Loa Andersson < >>> >>>> loa@pi.nu> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony, Jeff.et.al., >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since we are about to go to London, why no Samuel >>> >>>> Smithie's >>> >>>>>>>>> Imperial >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stout, just use the (white) label against black backgroun= d >>> >>>>>>> (as the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bottle). >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/113/782/ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the best beers brewed, especially if you can get >>> >>>> one >>> >>>>>>> that >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is about 10 years old. ANd a very nice label on that >>> >>>> bottle. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> /Loa >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-01-18 06:14, Jeff Tantsura wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How about Berliner Weisse? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *BIER on behalf of Tony >>> >>>>>>> Przygienda >>> >>>>>>>>> < >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 08:25 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Stig Venaas >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky , BIER WG < >>> >>>>>>> bier@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>> , >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Toerless Eckert >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Listening ... Would have to be pilsner ... Guiness on >>> >>>> black >>> >>>>>>>>> T-shirt is >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably not viable ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, given we have ladies in the group and >>> >>>>>>> probably >>> >>>>>>>>> no >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> aspiration to be a deaf punk band or something I'd tend t= o >>> >>>>>>> hold to >>> >>>>>>>>> a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lighter color albeit we could go for a black font (font >>> >>>>>>> without >>> >>>>>>>>> sword >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> points though ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 8:13 AM, Stig Venaas < >>> >>>> stig@venaas.com >>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> stig@venaas.com>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Great! How about a black shirt with kind of beer >>> >>>> colored >>> >>>>>>>>> text/logo? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stig >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2018 17:17, "Greg Mirsky" < >>> >>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tony, et. al. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Firstly, congratulations! >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, happy New Year and the best wishes to >>> >>>> All! >>> >>>>>>> (BTW, >>> >>>>>>>>> do >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you know that Russians celebrate the Old New Year >>> >>>>>>> January >>> >>>>>>>>> 13th. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, happy Old New Year too.) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, about that design. Like imagery but not >>> >>>> colors. >>> >>>>>>> Can we >>> >>>>>>>>>>> have >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the back in Union Jack colors? That said, sign me >>> >>>> in >>> >>>>>>> for 1. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Tony Przygienda >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Waiting for more ideas & chime ups ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to go with the company I suggested and >>> >>>> will >>> >>>>>>>>> modify >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> design to people's liking ... Will be group >>> >>>> order, >>> >>>>>>>>>>> depending >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on number (I think min is 30) it's about 12$ >>> >>>> each >>> >>>>>>> ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> will post in a bit ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Toerless >>> >>>> Eckert >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a german brewery called >>> >>>> "bitburger" >>> >>>>>>> and >>> >>>>>>>>> they >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a range of >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> promotional articles including t-shirts >>> >>>> and >>> >>>>>>>>> backpacks >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with their slogan >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on it: "Bitte ein Bit" - "one bit please": >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://shop.bitburger.de/ >>> >>>>>>>>> Basic-Line/Herren-T-Shirt- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenner-M-oxid.html >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So the quick option is to get one of those >>> >>>>>>> t-shirts >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cross out the "ein" (one) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and write "256" over it. It will become >>> >>>> more >>> >>>>>>>>> expensive >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> though, when you go into >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a pub with that t-shirt and ask "who >>> >>>> wants to >>> >>>>>>> be my >>> >>>>>>>>>>> BFER >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ?". >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh well,... i digress. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for t-shirt. Any design is fine for me. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Custom beer coasters could be interesting >>> >>>> too >>> >>>>>>> given >>> >>>>>>>>>>> some >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> good design idea. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> toerles >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 09:09:49AM -0800, >>> >>>> Tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Przygienda wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess it's T-shirts time ;-) I >>> >>>> really >>> >>>>>>>>> wanted >>> >>>>>>>>>>> it >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be B336 or B33B >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that will do ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one told me there was a specific >>> >>>> value >>> >>>>>>>>> request >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ;-) T-shirts are always >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun; but since BIER is an overlay >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for carrying traffic, maybe a >>> >>>> backpack >>> >>>>>>> would >>> >>>>>>>>> be >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more appropriate? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't dare and given how hard they >>> >>>> are >>> >>>>>>> to get >>> >>>>>>>>>>> it's >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> great we got one >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> without much friction ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group order open, if I get 30 together, >>> >>>>>>> I'll >>> >>>>>>>>> order >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and bring along to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> London ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like this? comments ? If >>> >>>>>>> interest, I >>> >>>>>>>>> open >>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> group order ... >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Didn't we request one for downstream >>> >>>>>>>>> assigned and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> one upstream assigned >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or did I get mixed up ? >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No - we just requested one for the >>> >>>>>>> Ethernet >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> encapsulation version. There >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no upstream and downstream >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned for the BIFT-id values. >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant equivalent of >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0x8847 and 0x8848 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but so far we have only downstream >>> >>>>>>> signalling >>> >>>>>>>>> and no >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> proposals of upstream >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one so we probably shouldn't push our >>> >>>> luck >>> >>>>>>> ;-) >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________ >>> >>>>>>> _________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/ >>> >>>> listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________ >>> >>>> _________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ BIER >>> >>>> mailing >>> >>>>>>> list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior MPLS Expert >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 >>> >>>> 64 >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>> >>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>> >>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>> --- >>> >>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>> BIER mailing list >>> >>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> --- >>> >>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >>>> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> --- >>> >> tte@cs.fau.de >>> >> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > --f403045c1946d35b050567d329fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brought T-shirts with me (it was overweight, grrh ;-)= =C2=A0 I'll be there 15 mins before the sessions. Would appreciate abou= t ~15$ worth of currency per piece in exchange. More important, wear them t= o the session ;-) ...=C2=A0 If not there to pick them up, enough people see= med like being on standby to get any spares ;-)

--- tony
<= /div>

On Wed, Feb = 28, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>= wrote:
Signed= off proofs

https://www.customink.com/proof_approvals/4546895?token=3D= 289e6c62-1796-11e8-ace8-0a92749b9112#proof_0_closeup

<= /div>they simplified colors a bit but looks OK to me ... Should have them 8= th or so ...

=
--- tony

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Tony Przygienda <tony= sietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Stig, yeah, you proba= bly are reading other boring wg threads while I'm getting here the _rea= l_ work done ;-) ;-)

You snooze, you loose (but I'll see w= hat my luggage can bear) ...

--- tony

On Thu, Feb 22= , 2018 at 8:01 AM, Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com> wrote:
I guess it may be too late fo= r me to request an XL?

My faul= t for not paying attention to this important thread.

Stig

=
=

On Feb 22, 2018 0= 7:46, "Tony Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Your T-shirt is honorary on the group

Thanks for the design



Sent from myMail for iOS


Wed= nesday, February 21, 2018, 23:54 -0800 from Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>:

=09
=09 =09
Excellent, thanks Tony.

The green is fine (we can call it bottle green!), and the logo is biii= g so I think Peter will catch us easily without a long lens :)

I can pay in =C2=A3s or biers ...

Tim

On 22 Feb 2018, at 06:21, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:

OK, order placed. Currently I'm planning to bring @ ~17$/each

Andrew L
Alia=C2=A0 XL
me =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 L
GregS M
GregM 2L
Toerless XXL
Acee XL
Tim XXL
Ice XXL, XL, L
Les M

I have more than this ordered but I have weight restrictions traveling so d= on't beg, you had your chance ...

Design below, the forest green was carefully considered by my 3 girls here = and approved as the only one passing minimum fashion bar. Sorrrrrry ;-)=C2= =A0

https://www.customink.com/designs/bier2/tst0-00bb-4gx= q/share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&u= tm_source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&utm= _content=3Dshared%20desktop

you can always reorder or set up a group order

The parties above are _obliged_ by a stiff penalty of paying a round of bee= r after the workgroup meet to wear the T-shirt to the WG. If you misjudged = you size, I mis-quote our AD as in "It's NOT nice" but you ha= ve to wear it anyway in some form or fashion ...=C2=A0 Ice, you are granted a special dispensation and it's enough you just w= ear one of the three but we encourage creative 3-t-shirt-fashion-statements= ... Same for Greg. Bandanas, Fez, diapers, possibilities are limitless ...

I trust Peter L to bring one of his 50lb lenses to capture the occasion ...=

--- tony

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
You are incorrect, Sir. Greg S is an M in T. S Ts often fit my torso better= , but they cut into my arm pits. For the record..

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 16:49, Tim Chown <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for this - XXL (due the beer Stig forces me to drink ;)
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>> On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:23, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>>
>> Ah, now i know.
>>
>> There is Greg S&M and Greg M2L.
>>
>> That's easy to remember.=C2=A0 ;-)
>>
>> [PC disclaimer: both this and my prior email on this thread where = tongue in cheek].
>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 01:01:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrot= e:
>>> Greg S =3D Shep
>>> Greg M =3D Mirsky
>>>
>>> You have been couple times around IETF, haven't you Toerle= ss ;-)=C2=A0 [just
>>> tongue in cheek]
>>>
>>> albeit I agree that having the first letters of their last nam= e
>>> corresponding to T-shirt sizing is an intriguing mystery of th= e universe
>>> probably needing an entry in the Hitchhiker ;-)
>>>
>>> --- tony
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:=
>>>>
>>>> a) Thank you so much !
>>>>
>>>> b) > GregS M
>>>>> GregM 2L
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 hmm.. i am confused.
>>>>=C2=A0 Looks as if we have Greg Small, Greg Medium, and 2 G= reg Large, but who
>>>> is who... ;)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:37:10PM -0800, Tony Przygie= nda wrote:
>>>>> OK, I just realized I can only bring a certain amount = of stuff weight
>>>> wise
>>>>> anyway. I have currently
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew L
>>>>> Alia=C2=A0 ?
>>>>> me=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0L
>>>>> GregS M
>>>>> GregM 2L
>>>>> Toerless XXL
>>>>> Acee XL
>>>>>
>>>>> I will order the following mix
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 10% XXL
>>>>> 20% XL
>>>>> 40% L
>>>>> 20% M
>>>>> 10% S
>>>>>
>>>>> and bring as many I manage to London (expect 10 or so)= along this mix
>>>>> including the pre-ordered sizes if people want (looks = about 20$/pop). I
>>>>> will try to open a group order as well so e'one ca= n just additional ones
>>>>> (but of course I will not sign those as limited editio= n ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> check the design on
>>>>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier/tst0-00bb-1c6c/
>>>> share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20de= sign&utm_
>>>> source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20desig= n&utm_
>>>> content=3Dshared%20desktop
>>>>>
>>>>> and let me know whether it's acceptable. I pushed = it down to 5 colors and
>>>>> no back text to keep price in check ...
>>>>>
>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Greg Shepherd <= ;gjshep@gmail.com= > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Custom Ink. You'll need an account to buy anyw= ay. Once a shirt is
>>>> designed
>>>>>> it can be shared and ordered at will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Toerless Eckert &= lt;tte@cs.fau.de>=
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hah, clone of lmgtfy. You score one gotcha poi= nt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Before responding to your first email, i tried= four randomn shops, and
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> all wanted my email to send me a quote. Too an= noyed about that to
>>>>>>> continue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 toerless
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:29:36PM -0800, = Greg Shepherd wrote:
>>>>>>>> http://bfy.tw/FXAz
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Toerless = Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de= >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any recommendations for online service= s that print even a single
>>>>>>> shirt ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Was wondering about the process today.= Have not done it in a long
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>> Back then
>>>>>>>>> low volume =3D iron-on process =3D som= e nasty rubbery carrier
>>>> material =3D=3D
>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>> even easier to do @home. Used to do it= @home for proofing, but
>>>> don't
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:06:16PM= -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> T-'s online are fast and cheap= . We could each just steal the art
>>>>>>> and make
>>>>>>>>>> our own shirts. At our low count, = I don't it will make a price
>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>> There has been discussion about op= tions. Point me to the art.
>>>> I'll
>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>> the default shirt, but I promise I= will have my own one-off BIER
>>>>>>> shirt
>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>> You've been warned.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:56 PM, T= oerless Eckert <tte@c= s.fau.de
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:13:= 18PM -0800, Tony Przygienda
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sizes pls ping to list her= e. I order a pile with spares and
>>>> I
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> try to
>>>>>>>>>>>> pinch 10-15$ poll tax in L= ondon for the historically
>>>>>>>>>>>> once-in-a-lifetime-but-sur= vives-three-washes-only produce
>>>> ...
>>>>>>> If you
>>>>>>>>>>>> pretend to be a student it= maybe less ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> XXL if its good quality pre-sh= runk cotton.
>>>>>>>>>>> XXXL otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what you can get for = 10..15$ these days.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And also:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>>>> Vielen Dank
>>>>>>>>>>> Muchas Gracias
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't speak F#$^*$% lati= n.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so, BIER aficionados, shoo= t ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:= 29 PM, Jeff Tantsura <
>>>>>>>>> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Tim Chown <= Tim.Chown@jisc.ac= .uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Thursday, Janu= ary 18, 2018 at 15:05
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Tony Przygienda = <tonysietf@gmai= l.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *"gjshep@gmail.com" <= gjshep@gmail.com&= gt;, IJsbrand
>>>>>>> Wijnands <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,
>>>> BIER WG
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org>, Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>, Toer= less
>>>>>>> Eckert <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail= .com>,
>>>> Loa
>>>>>>>>>>> Andersson <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> loa@pi.nu>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] = BIER Ethertype assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll email the hig= h-res version to you and Greg offlist as
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>>>> big.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 22:= 11, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The last/gold one is _= beautiful_.=C2=A0 Let's replace the IETF
>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> RFC8279
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep the hilarious &qu= ot;ABV3.7%" for the conoscenti and we're
>>>>>>> game I
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 1:17 PM, Tim Chown <
>>>>>>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> More low-res options /= colours attached.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can encode Ethertype a= s ABV?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Play with https://www.beerlabelizer.com ;)=C2=A0 =C2=A0You can
>>>> export
>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> high-res versions too.=
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm getting thirst= y...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:= 47, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be nice too= .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 12:27 PM, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, maybe more gold/bl= ack but otherwise, cool ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd still like to = get the EtherType on it, that's a
>>>> biggie ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another rev?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 12:09 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands <
>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Love it :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:= 39, Tim Chown <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 16:= 08, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suggest the clever tex= t, Mr. Witty ;-)=C2=A0 =C2=A0I would tend to
>>>> go
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> black/gold on white, t= hat is chintz ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finding http://andyslusher.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/7-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sources-for-creating-y= our-own.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> led to the very fun to= play with
>>>>>>> https://www.beerlabelizer.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> resulting in the attac= hed, the higher res version of which
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>> go on
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> black or other tee, or= on a bottle on a tee.=C2=A0 Or not, but
>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration somewhere = there ;)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <bier-label-small.p= ng>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 7:54 AM, Greg Shepherd <
>>>>>>> gjshep@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a fan of l= oads of mixed colors. Simple one or two
>>>>>>> colors,
>>>>>>>>>>> clever
>>>>>>>>>>>>> text to make them thin= k. I'd like the arch RFC and maybe
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> ethertype. PIM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being hauled off on a = bier (look it up) would be fun. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 11:43 PM, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa, thanks for the ec= lectic suggestion ;-) So that would
>>>> be
>>>>>>> black
>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>> gold
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on white with some qui= rky font?=C2=A0 Stig concurs?=C2=A0 ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 11:23 PM, Loa Andersson <
>>>> loa@pi.nu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony, Jeff.et.al.,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since we are about to = go to London, why no Samuel
>>>> Smithie's
>>>>>>>>> Imperial
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stout, just use the (w= hite) label against black background
>>>>>>> (as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bottle).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/113/782/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the best beers = brewed, especially if you can get
>>>> one
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is about 10 years old.= ANd a very nice label on that
>>>> bottle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Loa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-01-18 06:14, J= eff Tantsura wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about Berliner Wei= sse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Tony
>>>>>>> Przygienda
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, Jan= uary 17, 2018 at 08:25
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Stig Venaas <= stig@venaas.com>= ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmai= l.com>, BIER WG <
>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] = BIER Ethertype assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Listening ... Would ha= ve to be pilsner ... Guiness on
>>>> black
>>>>>>>>> T-shirt is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably not viable ;-= )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, giv= en we have ladies in the group and
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspiration to be a dea= f punk band or something I'd tend to
>>>>>>> hold to
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lighter color albeit w= e could go for a black font (font
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>> sword
>>>>>>>>>>>>> points though ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 8:13 AM, Stig Venaas <
>>>> stig@= venaas.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stig@venaas.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Great! How= about a black shirt with kind of beer
>>>> colored
>>>>>>>>> text/logo?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Stig
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0On Jan 15,= 2018 17:17, "Greg Mirsky" <
>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto= :gregimirsky@gma= il.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Hi Tony, et. al.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Firstly, congratulations!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Secondly, happy New Year and the best wishes to
>>>> All!
>>>>>>> (BTW,
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0you know that Russians celebrate the Old New Year
>>>>>>> January
>>>>>>>>> 13th.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0So, happy Old New Year too.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Now, about that design. Like imagery but not
>>>> colors.
>>>>>>> Can we
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0the back in Union Jack colors? That said, sign me
>>>> in
>>>>>>> for 1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Tony Przygienda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0<tonysiet= f@gmail.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Waiting for more ideas & chime ups ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I tend to go with the company I suggested and
>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> modify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design to people's liking ... Will be group
>>>> order,
>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on number (I think min is 30) it's about 12$
>>>> each
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will post in a bit ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Toerless
>>>> Eckert
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is a german brewery called
>>>> "bitburger"
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a range of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0promotional articles including t-shirts >>>> and
>>>>>>>>> backpacks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with their slogan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on it: "Bitte ein Bit" - "= one bit please":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://shop.bitburger.de/
>>>>>>>>> Basic-Line/Herren-T-Shirt-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenner-M-oxid.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So the quick option is to get one of thos= e
>>>>>>> t-shirts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cross out the "ein" (one)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and write "256" over it. It wil= l become
>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0though, when you go into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a pub with that t-shirt and ask "who=
>>>> wants to
>>>>>>> be my
>>>>>>>>>>> BFER
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Oh well,... i digress.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 for t-shirt. Any design is fine for me= .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Custom beer coasters could be interesting=
>>>> too
>>>>>>> given
>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0good design idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0toerles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 09:09:49AM -0800,=
>>>> Tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Przygienda wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess it= 's T-shirts time ;-)=C2=A0 I
>>>> really
>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be=C2=A0 B336 or B33B
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that w= ill do ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one told me= there was a specific
>>>> value
>>>>>>>>> request
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0;-)=C2=A0 T-shirts are always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun; but since= BIER is an overlay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for carrying t= raffic, maybe a
>>>> backpack
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more appropriate?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't dare = and given how hard they
>>>> are
>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0great we got one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without much frict= ion ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group order open, = if I get 30 together,
>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>>> order
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and bring along to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like thi= s? comments ? If
>>>>>>> interest, I
>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group order ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Didn't= we request one for downstream
>>>>>>>>> assigned and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one upstream assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or did I g= et mixed up ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No - we just r= equested one for the
>>>>>>> Ethernet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation version.=C2=A0 There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no upstream= and downstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned for t= he BIFT-id values.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant equivalent= of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0x8847 and 0x8848<= br> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but so far we have= only downstream
>>>>>>> signalling
>>>>>>>>> and no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposals of upstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one so we probably= shouldn't push our
>>>> luck
>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________= ____________
>>>>>>> _________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list<= br> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/
>>>> listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________________
>>>> _________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER= @ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0BIER@ietf.org = <mailto:BIER@ietf.org= >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= br> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________ BIER
>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa Andersson=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 email: loa@pi.nu
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior MPLS Expert
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huawei Technologies (c= onsultant)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phone: +46 739 81 21
>>>> 64
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _____________________________________= __________
>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---
>>>> tte@cs.= fau.de
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>
>

=09 =09 =09
=09




--f403045c1946d35b050567d329fe-- From nobody Tue Mar 20 00:53:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98EBB120724 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lcV_vSPJ6Bo8 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ADE91201F2 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o102-v6so1032514lfg.8 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:52:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DXVaKFwhlhx8qLBzBOYcFbmQ8CxjXQ3roy/JpxzamO4=; b=MINKzrAQe8sRnqEpWxsWITNjgUWkd0B/MqfnWvSgqvV9Vdfom56OhqPwZgQk2LHbwk c9Gd2/kjayTTIgNX3kIY2G9IQiIeS105CqB2ot8rZp4fS4pvh+KYG4Mw/g3c0h8v/dky h1acVA2mAs+xEzM8FPjRunAeS6xamDyzLyx/L0PyeutM+MXQGmXaDgY5vf6GOHJqQtev uneYBr5mdlHRdDv5wRm7tRoqTQnktPYxylENnBR5TJvamVoMHzKj6YSj3zfP5309QcVW U2WEEdjeBj3m4C1tAy+7zIC84JcQoYja0NUt4OI8klkMZ2JCz+/3vlKuFuFQOEhsrHgd dBOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DXVaKFwhlhx8qLBzBOYcFbmQ8CxjXQ3roy/JpxzamO4=; b=c+2AHSQA5ofxrgGCSSUlFnzndwqng44YoOmRhDoct1lQ8SEpBgL0xmc90XzfM7i9HG ihyxPUftVWILK2VV6kTP8MGOHIrUhn2a0olLkZbn+C2iLesXz5gb+cdR0dK9bCuPa/C8 +5Mr6RNcWbFTLl0q3ccgNooTJ3f21TTDMxbwK8SM00BKzRmT2jfythhlqZ27Tmffextt clOLn49LQoDmQ+ZDegihX5T0lSpixGHe04DWExVCP+jDFholKrbjZsW87dgzq+RzlY+N kzt5Kp+b5xNljFC3XP8e1afd2O3L9D8y3UgVyTob3o3kwEyQqZ0uS1yhMCbSIU6SIx7O wmAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7H5y47HWdrtYc/Z7OB3X5J7cc0Ly+sH9vuzwNAEOAIADczJoRLQ /Zn/ODltULIrUd4SrSOz7KlbS9Gx3uR+jO/1p64= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuyqB2LKKdlQLU2rmx7ox5SCFiEZXkDGhGqCKgdbM4Bu0lrDmgZNTL1OT+X/spdeZxWrXnwJSr7gy3wMcsmX7o= X-Received: by 10.46.135.74 with SMTP id q10mr9678814ljj.73.1521532366258; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:52:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2A9604F5-3C94-4BE8-825D-DBE13FEDB222@jisc.ac.uk> <1519314397.743980027@f19.my.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:52:35 +0000 Message-ID: To: "Dr. Tony Przygienda" Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="883d24f22f443487df0567d35c81" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:52:59 -0000 --883d24f22f443487df0567d35c81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Registration desk? Regards, Greg On Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 7:38 AM Tony Przygienda wrote: > Brought T-shirts with me (it was overweight, grrh ;-) I'll be there 15 > mins before the sessions. Would appreciate about ~15$ worth of currency p= er > piece in exchange. More important, wear them to the session ;-) ... If n= ot > there to pick them up, enough people seemed like being on standby to get > any spares ;-) > > --- tony > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: > >> Signed off proofs >> >> >> https://www.customink.com/proof_approvals/4546895?token=3D289e6c62-1796-= 11e8-ace8-0a92749b9112#proof_0_closeup >> >> they simplified colors a bit but looks OK to me ... Should have them 8th >> or so ... >> >> --- tony >> >> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Tony Przygienda >> wrote: >> >>> Stig, yeah, you probably are reading other boring wg threads while I'm >>> getting here the _real_ work done ;-) ;-) >>> >>> You snooze, you loose (but I'll see what my luggage can bear) ... >>> >>> --- tony >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:01 AM, Stig Venaas wrote: >>> >>>> I guess it may be too late for me to request an XL? >>>> >>>> My fault for not paying attention to this important thread. >>>> >>>> Stig >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 22, 2018 07:46, "Tony Przygienda" wrote: >>>> >>>> Your T-shirt is honorary on the group >>>> >>>> Thanks for the design >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from myMail for iOS >>>> >>>> >>>> Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 23:54 -0800 from Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk < >>>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>: >>>> >>>> Excellent, thanks Tony. >>>> >>>> The green is fine (we can call it bottle green!), and the logo is biii= g >>>> so I think Peter will catch us easily without a long lens :) >>>> >>>> I can pay in =C2=A3s or biers ... >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> >>>> On 22 Feb 2018, at 06:21, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>>> >>>> OK, order placed. Currently I'm planning to bring @ ~17$/each >>>> >>>> Andrew L >>>> Alia XL >>>> me L >>>> GregS M >>>> GregM 2L >>>> Toerless XXL >>>> Acee XL >>>> Tim XXL >>>> Ice XXL, XL, L >>>> Les M >>>> >>>> I have more than this ordered but I have weight restrictions traveling >>>> so don't beg, you had your chance ... >>>> >>>> Design below, the forest green was carefully considered by my 3 girls >>>> here and approved as the only one passing minimum fashion bar. Sorrrrr= ry >>>> ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier2/tst0-00bb-4gxq/share?pc=3DEMAI= L-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&utm_source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium= =3Dshared%20design&utm_content=3Dshared%20desktop >>>> >>>> you can always reorder or set up a group order >>>> >>>> The parties above are _obliged_ by a stiff penalty of paying a round o= f >>>> beer after the workgroup meet to wear the T-shirt to the WG. If you >>>> misjudged you size, I mis-quote our AD as in "It's NOT nice" but you h= ave >>>> to wear it anyway in some form or fashion ... Ice, you are granted a >>>> special dispensation and it's enough you just wear one of the three bu= t we >>>> encourage creative 3-t-shirt-fashion-statements ... Same for Greg. >>>> Bandanas, Fez, diapers, possibilities are limitless ... >>>> >>>> I trust Peter L to bring one of his 50lb lenses to capture the occasio= n >>>> ... >>>> >>>> --- tony >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Greg Shepherd >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> You are incorrect, Sir. Greg S is an M in T. S Ts often fit my torso >>>> better, but they cut into my arm pits. For the record.. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 16:49, Tim Chown wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hi, >>>> > >>>> > Thanks for this - XXL (due the beer Stig forces me to drink ;) >>>> > >>>> > Tim >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:23, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Ah, now i know. >>>> >> >>>> >> There is Greg S&M and Greg M2L. >>>> >> >>>> >> That's easy to remember. ;-) >>>> >> >>>> >> [PC disclaimer: both this and my prior email on this thread where >>>> tongue in cheek]. >>>> >> >>>> >>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 01:01:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>>> >>> Greg S =3D Shep >>>> >>> Greg M =3D Mirsky >>>> >>> >>>> >>> You have been couple times around IETF, haven't you Toerless ;-) >>>> [just >>>> >>> tongue in cheek] >>>> >>> >>>> >>> albeit I agree that having the first letters of their last name >>>> >>> corresponding to T-shirt sizing is an intriguing mystery of the >>>> universe >>>> >>> probably needing an entry in the Hitchhiker ;-) >>>> >>> >>>> >>> --- tony >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Toerless Eckert >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> a) Thank you so much ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> b) > GregS M >>>> >>>>> GregM 2L >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> hmm.. i am confused. >>>> >>>> Looks as if we have Greg Small, Greg Medium, and 2 Greg Large, >>>> but who >>>> >>>> is who... ;) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Toerless >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:37:10PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrote: >>>> >>>>> OK, I just realized I can only bring a certain amount of stuff >>>> weight >>>> >>>> wise >>>> >>>>> anyway. I have currently >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Andrew L >>>> >>>>> Alia ? >>>> >>>>> me L >>>> >>>>> GregS M >>>> >>>>> GregM 2L >>>> >>>>> Toerless XXL >>>> >>>>> Acee XL >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I will order the following mix >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> 10% XXL >>>> >>>>> 20% XL >>>> >>>>> 40% L >>>> >>>>> 20% M >>>> >>>>> 10% S >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> and bring as many I manage to London (expect 10 or so) along thi= s >>>> mix >>>> >>>>> including the pre-ordered sizes if people want (looks about >>>> 20$/pop). I >>>> >>>>> will try to open a group order as well so e'one can just >>>> additional ones >>>> >>>>> (but of course I will not sign those as limited edition ;-) >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> check the design on >>>> >>>>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier/tst0-00bb-1c6c/ >>>> >>>> share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&utm_ >>>> >>>> source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&utm_ >>>> >>>> content=3Dshared%20desktop >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> and let me know whether it's acceptable. I pushed it down to 5 >>>> colors and >>>> >>>>> no back text to keep price in check ... >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> --- tony >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Greg Shepherd >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> :D >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Custom Ink. You'll need an account to buy anyway. Once a shirt = is >>>> >>>> designed >>>> >>>>>> it can be shared and ordered at will. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Toerless Eckert >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Hah, clone of lmgtfy. You score one gotcha point. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Before responding to your first email, i tried four randomn >>>> shops, and >>>> >>>>>>> they >>>> >>>>>>> all wanted my email to send me a quote. Too annoyed about that >>>> to >>>> >>>>>>> continue. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>> >>>>>>> toerless >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:29:36PM -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote= : >>>> >>>>>>>> http://bfy.tw/FXAz >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Toerless Eckert < >>>> tte@cs.fau.de> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Any recommendations for online services that print even a >>>> single >>>> >>>>>>> shirt ? >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Was wondering about the process today. Have not done it in a >>>> long >>>> >>>>>>> time. >>>> >>>>>>>>> Back then >>>> >>>>>>>>> low volume =3D iron-on process =3D some nasty rubbery carrie= r >>>> >>>> material =3D=3D >>>> >>>>>>> maybe >>>> >>>>>>>>> even easier to do @home. Used to do it @home for proofing, b= ut >>>> >>>> don't >>>> >>>>>>> like >>>> >>>>>>>>> results. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:06:16PM -0800, Greg Shepherd >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>> T-'s online are fast and cheap.. We could each just steal >>>> the art >>>> >>>>>>> and make >>>> >>>>>>>>>> our own shirts. At our low count, I don't it will make a >>>> price >>>> >>>>>>>>> difference. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> There has been discussion about options. Point me to the ar= t. >>>> >>>> I'll >>>> >>>>>>> buy >>>> >>>>>>>>> into >>>> >>>>>>>>>> the default shirt, but I promise I will have my own one-off >>>> BIER >>>> >>>>>>> shirt >>>> >>>>>>>>> too. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> You've been warned. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Toerless Eckert < >>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:13:18PM -0800, Tony Przygienda >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sizes pls ping to list here. I order a pile with spares a= nd >>>> >>>> I >>>> >>>>>>> will >>>> >>>>>>>>> try to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pinch 10-15$ poll tax in London for the historically >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> once-in-a-lifetime-but-survives-three-washes-only produce >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>>>>> If you >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pretend to be a student it maybe less ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> XXL if its good quality pre-shrunk cotton. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> XXXL otherwise. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what you can get for 10..15$ these days. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And also: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Vielen Dank >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Muchas Gracias >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't speak F#$^*$% latin. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Toerless >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so, BIER aficionados, shoot ... >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Jeff Tantsura < >>>> >>>>>>>>> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +1! >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Tim Chown >>> > >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 15:05 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Tony Przygienda >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *"gjshep@gmail.com" , IJsbrand >>>> >>>>>>> Wijnands < >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky , >>>> >>>> BIER WG >>>> >>>>>>> < >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org>, Stig Venaas , Toerless >>>> >>>>>>> Eckert < >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de>, Jeff Tantsura >>> >, >>>> >>>> Loa >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Andersson < >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> loa@pi.nu> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll email the high-res version to you and Greg offlist = as >>>> >>>>>>> it's >>>> >>>>>>>>> quite >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> big. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 22:11, Tony Przygienda < >>>> >>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The last/gold one is _beautiful_. Let's replace the IET= F >>>> >>>> with >>>> >>>>>>>>> RFC8279 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> keep the hilarious "ABV3.7%" for the conoscenti and we'r= e >>>> >>>>>>> game I >>>> >>>>>>>>> think >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 1:17 PM, Tim Chown < >>>> >>>>>>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> More low-res options / colours attached. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Can encode Ethertype as ABV? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Play with https://www.beerlabelizer.com ;) You can >>>> >>>> export >>>> >>>>>>> pretty >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> high-res versions too. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm getting thirsty... >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:47, Greg Shepherd >>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be nice too.. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Tony Przygienda < >>>> >>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, maybe more gold/black but otherwise, cool ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd still like to get the EtherType on it, that's a >>>> >>>> biggie ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Another rev? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 12:09 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands < >>>> >>>>>>> ice@cisco.com >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Love it :-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:39, Tim Chown >>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 16:08, Tony Przygienda < >>>> >>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Suggest the clever text, Mr. Witty ;-) I would tend to >>>> >>>> go >>>> >>>>>>> with >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> black/gold on white, that is chintz ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Finding http://andyslusher.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/7- >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sources-for-creating-your-own.html >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> led to the very fun to play with >>>> >>>>>>> https://www.beerlabelizer.com/ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> resulting in the attached, the higher res version of whi= ch >>>> >>>>>>> could >>>> >>>>>>>>> go on >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> black or other tee, or on a bottle on a tee. Or not, bu= t >>>> >>>>>>> maybe >>>> >>>>>>>>> there's >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration somewhere there ;) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Greg Shepherd < >>>> >>>>>>> gjshep@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a fan of loads of mixed colors. Simple one or tw= o >>>> >>>>>>> colors, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> clever >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> text to make them think. I'd like the arch RFC and maybe >>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ethertype. PIM >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> being hauled off on a bier (look it up) would be fun. :) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Tony Przygienda < >>>> >>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa, thanks for the eclectic suggestion ;-) So that woul= d >>>> >>>> be >>>> >>>>>>> black >>>> >>>>>>>>> & >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> gold >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on white with some quirky font? Stig concurs? ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:23 PM, Loa Andersson < >>>> >>>> loa@pi.nu> >>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony, Jeff.et.al., >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since we are about to go to London, why no Samuel >>>> >>>> Smithie's >>>> >>>>>>>>> Imperial >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stout, just use the (white) label against black backgrou= nd >>>> >>>>>>> (as the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bottle). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/113/782/ >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the best beers brewed, especially if you can get >>>> >>>> one >>>> >>>>>>> that >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is about 10 years old. ANd a very nice label on that >>>> >>>> bottle. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> /Loa >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-01-18 06:14, Jeff Tantsura wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How about Berliner Weisse? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *BIER on behalf of Tony >>>> >>>>>>> Przygienda >>>> >>>>>>>>> < >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 08:25 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Stig Venaas >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky , BIER WG < >>>> >>>>>>> bier@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>>>> , >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Toerless Eckert >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] BIER Ethertype assigned >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Listening ... Would have to be pilsner ... Guiness on >>>> >>>> black >>>> >>>>>>>>> T-shirt is >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably not viable ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, given we have ladies in the group and >>>> >>>>>>> probably >>>> >>>>>>>>> no >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> aspiration to be a deaf punk band or something I'd tend = to >>>> >>>>>>> hold to >>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lighter color albeit we could go for a black font (font >>>> >>>>>>> without >>>> >>>>>>>>> sword >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> points though ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 8:13 AM, Stig Venaas < >>>> >>>> stig@venaas.com >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> stig@venaas.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Great! How about a black shirt with kind of beer >>>> >>>> colored >>>> >>>>>>>>> text/logo? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stig >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2018 17:17, "Greg Mirsky" < >>>> >>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tony, et. al. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Firstly, congratulations! >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, happy New Year and the best wishes to >>>> >>>> All! >>>> >>>>>>> (BTW, >>>> >>>>>>>>> do >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you know that Russians celebrate the Old New Year >>>> >>>>>>> January >>>> >>>>>>>>> 13th. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, happy Old New Year too.) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, about that design. Like imagery but not >>>> >>>> colors. >>>> >>>>>>> Can we >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the back in Union Jack colors? That said, sign me >>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>>>>> for 1. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Tony Przygienda >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Waiting for more ideas & chime ups ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to go with the company I suggested and >>>> >>>> will >>>> >>>>>>>>> modify >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> design to people's liking ... Will be group >>>> >>>> order, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> depending >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on number (I think min is 30) it's about 12$ >>>> >>>> each >>>> >>>>>>> ... >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> will post in a bit ... >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Toerless >>>> >>>> Eckert >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a german brewery called >>>> >>>> "bitburger" >>>> >>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>>>>>> they >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a range of >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> promotional articles including t-shirts >>>> >>>> and >>>> >>>>>>>>> backpacks >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with their slogan >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on it: "Bitte ein Bit" - "one bit please": >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://shop.bitburger.de/ >>>> >>>>>>>>> Basic-Line/Herren-T-Shirt- >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenner-M-oxid.html >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So the quick option is to get one of those >>>> >>>>>>> t-shirts >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cross out the "ein" (one) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and write "256" over it. It will become >>>> >>>> more >>>> >>>>>>>>> expensive >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> though, when you go into >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a pub with that t-shirt and ask "who >>>> >>>> wants to >>>> >>>>>>> be my >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> BFER >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ?". >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh well,... i digress. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for t-shirt. Any design is fine for me.= . >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Custom beer coasters could be interesting >>>> >>>> too >>>> >>>>>>> given >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> some >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> good design idea. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> toerles >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 09:09:49AM -0800, >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Przygienda wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess it's T-shirts time ;-) I >>>> >>>> really >>>> >>>>>>>>> wanted >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be B336 or B33B >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that will do ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one told me there was a specific >>>> >>>> value >>>> >>>>>>>>> request >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ;-) T-shirts are always >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun; but since BIER is an overlay >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for carrying traffic, maybe a >>>> >>>> backpack >>>> >>>>>>> would >>>> >>>>>>>>> be >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more appropriate? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't dare and given how hard they >>>> >>>> are >>>> >>>>>>> to get >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> great we got one >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> without much friction ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group order open, if I get 30 together, >>>> >>>>>>> I'll >>>> >>>>>>>>> order >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and bring along to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> London ... >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like this? comments ? If >>>> >>>>>>> interest, I >>>> >>>>>>>>> open >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> group order ... >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Didn't we request one for downstream >>>> >>>>>>>>> assigned and >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> one upstream assigned >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or did I get mixed up ? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No - we just requested one for the >>>> >>>>>>> Ethernet >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> encapsulation version. There >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no upstream and downstream >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned for the BIFT-id values. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant equivalent of >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0x8847 and 0x8848 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but so far we have only downstream >>>> >>>>>>> signalling >>>> >>>>>>>>> and no >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> proposals of upstream >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one so we probably shouldn't push our >>>> >>>> luck >>>> >>>>>>> ;-) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________ >>>> >>>>>>> _________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/ >>>> >>>> listinfo/bier >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________ >>>> >>>> _________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ BIER >>>> >>>> mailing >>>> >>>>>>> list >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior MPLS Expert >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 2= 1 >>>> >>>> 64 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>> >>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>> >>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>> BIER mailing list >>>> >>>>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> --- >>>> >> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --883d24f22f443487df0567d35c81 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Registration desk?

Regards, Greg=C2=A0

Brought T-shirts with me (it= was overweight, grrh ;-)=C2=A0 I'll be there 15 mins before the sessio= ns. Would appreciate about ~15$ worth of currency per piece in exchange. Mo= re important, wear them to the session ;-) ...=C2=A0 If not there to pick t= hem up, enough people seemed like being on standby to get any spares ;-)
--- tony

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
they simplified colors = a bit but looks OK to me ... Should have them 8th or so ...

<= /div>---= tony

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Stig, yeah, you probably are reading other boring wg thr= eads while I'm getting here the _real_ work done ;-) ;-)

Y= ou snooze, you loose (but I'll see what my luggage can bear) ...

--- tony
=
On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:01 AM, Stig Venaas= <stig@venaas.com> wrote:
I guess it may be too late for me to req= uest an XL?

My fault for not p= aying attention to this important thread.

Stig


On Feb 22, 2018 07:46, "Tony Przygiend= a" <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Your T-shirt is honorary on the group

Thanks for the design



Sent = from myMail for iOS


Wednesday, February 21, 2018, 23:54 -0= 800 from Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>:
=09
=09 =09
Excellent, thanks Tony.

The green is fine (we can call it bottle green!), and the logo is biii= g so I think Peter will catch us easily without a long lens :)

I can pay in =C2=A3s or biers ...

Tim

On 22 Feb 2018, at 06:21, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> = wrote:

OK, order placed. Currently I'm planning to bring @ ~17$/each

Andrew L
Alia=C2=A0 XL
me =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 L
GregS M
GregM 2L
Toerless XXL
Acee XL
Tim XXL
Ice XXL, XL, L
Les M

I have more than this ordered but I have weight restrictions traveling so d= on't beg, you had your chance ...

Design below, the forest green was carefully considered by my 3 girls here = and approved as the only one passing minimum fashion bar. Sorrrrrry ;-)=C2= =A0

https://www.customink.com/designs/bier2= /tst0-00bb-4gxq/share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&a= mp;utm_source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&utm_conte= nt=3Dshared%20desktop

you can always reorder or set up a group order

The parties above are _obliged_ by a stiff penalty of paying a round of bee= r after the workgroup meet to wear the T-shirt to the WG. If you misjudged = you size, I mis-quote our AD as in "It's NOT nice" but you ha= ve to wear it anyway in some form or fashion ...=C2=A0 Ice, you are granted a special dispensation and it's enough you just w= ear one of the three but we encourage creative 3-t-shirt-fashion-statements= ... Same for Greg. Bandanas, Fez, diapers, possibilities are limitless ...

I trust Peter L to bring one of his 50lb lenses to capture the occasion ...=

--- tony

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
You are incorrect, Sir. Greg S is an M in T. S Ts often fit my torso better= , but they cut into my arm pits. For the record..

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 16:49, Tim Chown <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>= ; wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for this - XXL (due the beer Stig forces me to drink ;)
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>> On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:23, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wro= te:
>>
>> Ah, now i know.
>>
>> There is Greg S&M and Greg M2L.
>>
>> That's easy to remember.=C2=A0 ;-)
>>
>> [PC disclaimer: both this and my prior email on this thread where = tongue in cheek].
>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 01:01:17PM -0800, Tony Przygienda wrot= e:
>>> Greg S =3D Shep
>>> Greg M =3D Mirsky
>>>
>>> You have been couple times around IETF, haven't you Toerle= ss ;-)=C2=A0 [just
>>> tongue in cheek]
>>>
>>> albeit I agree that having the first letters of their last nam= e
>>> corresponding to T-shirt sizing is an intriguing mystery of th= e universe
>>> probably needing an entry in the Hitchhiker ;-)
>>>
>>> --- tony
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fa= u.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> a) Thank you so much !
>>>>
>>>> b) > GregS M
>>>>> GregM 2L
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 hmm.. i am confused.
>>>>=C2=A0 Looks as if we have Greg Small, Greg Medium, and 2 G= reg Large, but who
>>>> is who... ;)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:37:10PM -0800, Tony Przygie= nda wrote:
>>>>> OK, I just realized I can only bring a certain amount = of stuff weight
>>>> wise
>>>>> anyway. I have currently
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew L
>>>>> Alia=C2=A0 ?
>>>>> me=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0L
>>>>> GregS M
>>>>> GregM 2L
>>>>> Toerless XXL
>>>>> Acee XL
>>>>>
>>>>> I will order the following mix
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 10% XXL
>>>>> 20% XL
>>>>> 40% L
>>>>> 20% M
>>>>> 10% S
>>>>>
>>>>> and bring as many I manage to London (expect 10 or so)= along this mix
>>>>> including the pre-ordered sizes if people want (looks = about 20$/pop). I
>>>>> will try to open a group order as well so e'one ca= n just additional ones
>>>>> (but of course I will not sign those as limited editio= n ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> check the design on
>>>>> https://www.customink.com/designs/bier/tst0-00bb-1c6c/
>>>> share?pc=3DEMAIL-40778&utm_campaign=3Dshared%20design&= amp;utm_
>>>> source=3Dshare%20link&utm_medium=3Dshared%20design&= ;utm_
>>>> content=3Dshared%20desktop
>>>>>
>>>>> and let me know whether it's acceptable. I pushed = it down to 5 colors and
>>>>> no back text to keep price in check ...
>>>>>
>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Greg Shepherd <= ;g= jshep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Custom Ink. You'll need an account to buy anyw= ay. Once a shirt is
>>>> designed
>>>>>> it can be shared and ordered at will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Toerless Eckert &= lt;tt= e@cs.fau.de>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hah, clone of lmgtfy. You score one gotcha poi= nt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Before responding to your first email, i tried= four randomn shops, and
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> all wanted my email to send me a quote. Too an= noyed about that to
>>>>>>> continue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>=C2=A0 toerless
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:29:36PM -0800, = Greg Shepherd wrote:
>>>>>>>> http://bfy.tw/FXAz
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Toerless = Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any recommendations for online service= s that print even a single
>>>>>>> shirt ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Was wondering about the process today.= Have not done it in a long
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>> Back then
>>>>>>>>> low volume =3D iron-on process =3D som= e nasty rubbery carrier
>>>> material =3D=3D
>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>> even easier to do @home. Used to do it= @home for proofing, but
>>>> don't
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:06:16PM= -0800, Greg Shepherd wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> T-'s online are fast and cheap= .. We could each just steal the art
>>>>>>> and make
>>>>>>>>>> our own shirts. At our low count, = I don't it will make a price
>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>> There has been discussion about op= tions. Point me to the art.
>>>> I'll
>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>> the default shirt, but I promise I= will have my own one-off BIER
>>>>>>> shirt
>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>> You've been warned.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:56 PM, T= oerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:13:= 18PM -0800, Tony Przygienda
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sizes pls ping to list her= e. I order a pile with spares and
>>>> I
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> try to
>>>>>>>>>>>> pinch 10-15$ poll tax in L= ondon for the historically
>>>>>>>>>>>> once-in-a-lifetime-but-sur= vives-three-washes-only produce
>>>> ...
>>>>>>> If you
>>>>>>>>>>>> pretend to be a student it= maybe less ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> XXL if its good quality pre-sh= runk cotton.
>>>>>>>>>>> XXXL otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what you can get for = 10..15$ these days.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And also:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much
>>>>>>>>>>> Vielen Dank
>>>>>>>>>>> Muchas Gracias
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't speak F#$^*$% lati= n.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so, BIER aficionados, shoo= t ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 4:= 29 PM, Jeff Tantsura <
>>>>>>>>> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Tim Chown <= Tim.Chown@jisc.ac..uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Thursday, Janu= ary 18, 2018 at 15:05
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Tony Przygienda = <tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *"gjshep@gmail= .com" <gjshep@gmail.com>, IJsbrand
>>>>>>> Wijnands <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com>, Greg= Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,
>>>> BIER WG
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org>, Stig= Venaas <stig@venaas.com>, Toerless
>>>>>>> Eckert <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de>, Jeff= Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail..com>,
>>>> Loa
>>>>>>>>>>> Andersson <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> loa@pi.nu>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] = BIER Ethertype assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll email the hig= h-res version to you and Greg offlist as
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>>>> big.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 22:= 11, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The last/gold one is _= beautiful_.=C2=A0 Let's replace the IETF
>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> RFC8279
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep the hilarious &qu= ot;ABV3.7%" for the conoscenti and we're
>>>>>>> game I
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 1:17 PM, Tim Chown <
>>>>>>> Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> More low-res options /= colours attached.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can encode Ethertype a= s ABV?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Play with https://www.beerlabelizer.com ;)=C2=A0 =C2=A0You can
>>>> export
>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> high-res versions too.=
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm getting thirst= y...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:= 47, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be nice too= ..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 12:27 PM, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, maybe more gold/bl= ack but otherwise, cool ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd still like to = get the EtherType on it, that's a
>>>> biggie ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another rev?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 12:09 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands <
>>>>>>> ice@cisco.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Love it :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 20:= 39, Tim Chown <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk
>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2018, at 16:= 08, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suggest the clever tex= t, Mr. Witty ;-)=C2=A0 =C2=A0I would tend to
>>>> go
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> black/gold on white, t= hat is chintz ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finding http://andyslusher.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/7-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sources-for-creating-y= our-own.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> led to the very fun to= play with
>>>>>>> https://www.beerlabelizer.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> resulting in the attac= hed, the higher res version of which
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>> go on
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> black or other tee, or= on a bottle on a tee.=C2=A0 Or not, but
>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration somewhere = there ;)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <bier-label-small.p= ng>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 a= t 7:54 AM, Greg Shepherd <
>>>>>>> gjshep@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not a fan of l= oads of mixed colors. Simple one or two
>>>>>>> colors,
>>>>>>>>>>> clever
>>>>>>>>>>>>> text to make them thin= k. I'd like the arch RFC and maybe
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> ethertype. PIM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being hauled off on a = bier (look it up) would be fun. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 11:43 PM, Tony Przygienda <
>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa, thanks for the ec= lectic suggestion ;-) So that would
>>>> be
>>>>>>> black
>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>>>> gold
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on white with some qui= rky font?=C2=A0 Stig concurs?=C2=A0 ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 11:23 PM, Loa Andersson <
>>>> loa@pi.nu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony, Jeff.et.al.,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since we are about to = go to London, why no Samuel
>>>> Smithie's
>>>>>>>>> Imperial
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stout, just use the (w= hite) label against black background
>>>>>>> (as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bottle).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/113/782/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the best beers = brewed, especially if you can get
>>>> one
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is about 10 years old.= ANd a very nice label on that
>>>> bottle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Loa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-01-18 06:14, J= eff Tantsura wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about Berliner Wei= sse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *BIER <bi= er-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Tony
>>>>>>> Przygienda
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, Jan= uary 17, 2018 at 08:25
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *Stig Venaas <= sti= g@venaas.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmail.com>, BIER WG <
>>>>>>> bier@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.= fau.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] = BIER Ethertype assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Listening ... Would ha= ve to be pilsner ... Guiness on
>>>> black
>>>>>>>>> T-shirt is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably not viable ;-= )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, giv= en we have ladies in the group and
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspiration to be a dea= f punk band or something I'd tend to
>>>>>>> hold to
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lighter color albeit w= e could go for a black font (font
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>> sword
>>>>>>>>>>>>> points though ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 a= t 8:13 AM, Stig Venaas <
>>>> stig@venaas.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stig@venaas.com>&g= t; wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Great! How= about a black shirt with kind of beer
>>>> colored
>>>>>>>>> text/logo?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Stig
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0On Jan 15,= 2018 17:17, "Greg Mirsky" <
>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto= :gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Hi Tony, et. al.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Firstly, congratulations!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Secondly, happy New Year and the best wishes to
>>>> All!
>>>>>>> (BTW,
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0you know that Russians celebrate the Old New Year
>>>>>>> January
>>>>>>>>> 13th.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0So, happy Old New Year too.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Now, about that design. Like imagery but not
>>>> colors.
>>>>>>> Can we
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0the back in Union Jack colors? That said, sign me
>>>> in
>>>>>>> for 1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Tony Przygienda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0<tonysietf@gmail.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Waiting for more ideas & chime ups ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I tend to go with the company I suggested and
>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> modify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design to people's liking ... Will be group
>>>> order,
>>>>>>>>>>> depending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on number (I think min is 30) it's about 12$
>>>> each
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will post in a bit ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Toerless
>>>> Eckert
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>> wrote:=
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is a german brewery called
>>>> "bitburger"
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a range of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0promotional articles including t-shirts >>>> and
>>>>>>>>> backpacks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with their slogan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on it: "Bitte ein Bit" - "= one bit please":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://shop.bitburger.de/
>>>>>>>>> Basic-Line/Herren-T-Shirt-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kenner-M-oxid.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So the quick option is to get one of thos= e
>>>>>>> t-shirts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cross out the "ein" (one)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and write "256" over it. It wil= l become
>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0though, when you go into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a pub with that t-shirt and ask "who=
>>>> wants to
>>>>>>> be my
>>>>>>>>>>> BFER
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Oh well,... i digress.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 for t-shirt. Any design is fine for me= ..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Custom beer coasters could be interesting=
>>>> too
>>>>>>> given
>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0good design idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0toerles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 09:09:49AM -0800,=
>>>> Tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Przygienda wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess it= 's T-shirts time ;-)=C2=A0 I
>>>> really
>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be=C2=A0 B336 or B33B
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that w= ill do ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one told me= there was a specific
>>>> value
>>>>>>>>> request
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0;-)=C2=A0 T-shirts are always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun; but since= BIER is an overlay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for carrying t= raffic, maybe a
>>>> backpack
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more appropriate?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't dare = and given how hard they
>>>> are
>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0great we got one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without much frict= ion ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group order open, = if I get 30 together,
>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>>> order
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and bring along to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like thi= s? comments ? If
>>>>>>> interest, I
>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group order ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Didn't= we request one for downstream
>>>>>>>>> assigned and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one upstream assigned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or did I g= et mixed up ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No - we just r= equested one for the
>>>>>>> Ethernet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation version.=C2=A0 There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is no upstream= and downstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assigned for t= he BIFT-id values.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant equivalent= of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0x8847 and 0x8848<= br> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but so far we have= only downstream
>>>>>>> signalling
>>>>>>>>> and no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposals of upstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one so we probably= shouldn't push our
>>>> luck
>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________= ____________
>>>>>>> _________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list<= br> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org <m= ailto:BIER@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/
>>>> listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tte@cs.fau.de <mailto:tte@cs.fau.de>= ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________________
>>>> _________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER@ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0BIER@ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bie= r
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________ BIER
>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loa Andersson=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 email: loa@pi.nu
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior MPLS Expert
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huawei Technologies (c= onsultant)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phone: +46 739 81 21
>>>> 64
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________= _________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
>>>>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> BIER mailing list
>>>>>> BIER@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---
>>>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> tte@cs.fau.de
>>
>

=09 =09 =09
=09




_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= br> --883d24f22f443487df0567d35c81-- From nobody Tue Mar 20 02:56:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80F0124235 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 02:56:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TTikhW7bgAwJ for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 02:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22a.google.com (mail-it0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 268031200F1 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 02:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id c1-v6so686023itj.1 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 02:56:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=eIbAXiifpMzS5AgIf1FBJoMY2s8WbbJzNmo614VnmkA=; b=JyyiWibwSvmPn+6Fbr+bZLZmhAGiMdusO0NPrpy/g613YDCgHwKjV0w41Oz+rbHd1J heUHoJgW7Dr1p8t9QNTLqe7MXW7zD+o6ineq4A4QzDSq2gHhDR6h3SXqizOriPD/vFKI m4S4JbBYYBWpbKbNm5106xvY0Tu3bQUfqtmEiM9j1k4XUZ1J/e0z7DMF8eSlpfeBL/0h p8AZbrshXc2co3PnqYhzTjoYegJtcnP/qHs+HApsXhvgyfp8Wu2ndLrR39D7ATArCbpg s7gSyzZe9VckW1H0FUw3+JawCoGnQbvHo+lVYg8468Kkm/Y2SCj7wkXhBU7SQRI2GG6V bHTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=eIbAXiifpMzS5AgIf1FBJoMY2s8WbbJzNmo614VnmkA=; b=JXaVn3IEBndmrCjQc9qIKDkQzAzvc7PtPVFKShxrEC4F0Ygyt26RZ9vSoz8jmHU/7E hrXEXF0/jc8EUZm4e9B/6x1Qom/cyeid5Ps/tBuQ/n61C/N/hPw3+TjeCQxXSJ/dtPxx zQqAEleUl58j2MMerMWsN2AFHWemyzFOShFf83iho2TszUEpLwRhnX4EivTyIKbZRbma 06wXSsPwNB6VTRDGfD6rU+N8L/h50TOnuZIOCPYTcxuQz/qznKpFD2Fg6afNDCHIWLV9 R5/9RJ/e+Kw+iKqqZ3ghnYEwfwDP2EqIvlIMWtVh4A1MYBobN9QMSwSLVm7sz72c9yXU BbuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HuJo6SCkiO2xbw7fI830pSS12drdtQYmc7qZzUkueqWo8dyRAy epWiwKXNZO+2NPzFgAnyo1aMRYgYUTNL7WTul6K00w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvatauZ4DSfC3i2Eu5n1gPe3v+xKsVcrrym85fRBEkN0NoJVE/5MlIYmZEUbm9aEL07f6PHTfvdkbCyvIL0iTQ= X-Received: by 2002:a24:75cb:: with SMTP id y194-v6mr2180238itc.66.1521539798110; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 02:56:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.98.79 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 02:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 02:56:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d97cf0567d51783" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG Presentations, IETF 101 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 09:56:40 -0000 --0000000000002d97cf0567d51783 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Several of the presentations have not been received - by me. Those I have received have been uploaded to the materials page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/session/bier So far we're missing slides for: draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling draft-zzhang-algorithms draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa draft-hubert-bier-replication-elimination Please send them in ASAP. No slides will be accepted in the room. Cheers, Greg (Chairs) On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > WG, > > Please send you slides in asap so I can get them posted. If you have sent > slides, please confirm that I have the latest version on the meeting > materials page: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/ > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > > --0000000000002d97cf0567d51783 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Several of the presentations have not been received - by m= e. Those I have received have been uploaded to the materials page:

=
<= br>
So far we're missing slides for:

draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling
draft-zzhang-algorithms
=
draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa
draft-hubert-bier-replication-elim= ination

Please send them in ASAP. No sli= des will be accepted in the room.

Cheers,
Greg
(Chairs)

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep= @gmail.com> wrote:
WG,

Please send you slides in asap so I can get= them posted. If you have sent slides, please confirm that I have the lates= t version on the meeting materials page:


Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)


--0000000000002d97cf0567d51783-- From nobody Tue Mar 20 14:49:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7140812D77B for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:49:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5a5hYY9cShYd for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x233.google.com (mail-qt0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79510129C6E for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x233.google.com with SMTP id f8so3302409qtg.12 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:49:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SRALUbQd/r1YF/acphbwI3ukDU0ycZVv+CnTXoP20p0=; b=gxfX2feep6lRO4wp+IIfVC3oYtoDLx16BtE2pK/ANj71CGX3jT3zZ3lC5mBilqcDvo QPUkCRulFPRVMvMyqkLXxMATyef5lGZq/SOD/K4xnqXQfwGLI7nD8+WkLj3CaHt2yqGc MQQR2XL5SBBPZt7PIHP6zaQekujhoAdT91zwfqPxiK6u71uwYcLuWFe838Cv3rZpP74O 96jne3tB1FIPi8Oy4v6wLc4uG3linnE9kbYPL16lalwZgIr/4YItDq1IREIaNGv86lun yuNZnDv6YQAHdgZMWYUDIcWlpTjisrGTbhTTEzSuozJB03dMJ6tAWPhhetLBfqxOGWkB HYBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SRALUbQd/r1YF/acphbwI3ukDU0ycZVv+CnTXoP20p0=; b=OSDKuefUrfUT5hrDc8IiEl+/NCJJ9XUxnN1BJiWOj22dVeeRjBq2JByuyHowLlJi6V +NvUJSj3C+TCyjmr1ogt67dPJC195ebzv5a12ltb8uREDctV+EyJWidOrEDqYDQ5Gm1m lnccGWVXvXVWL1TkOZypBduzsAJiEn3qqLJtwhOnYUvLVddA/mLERDoRaBnZ4ekLA9K/ EHy2GvTqwN5aeglabpjF0Jxeven0fdIGc5bjWV32ApTRT7YA/uexi0YEIw1tDeixCj2t GIkpGPj2/V3qM+25/lM9nUvfZEUd6fIYfDwbkGGBKDDrfU+fHPbhYUSTAD+gzHbo7RnC yoIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FGd+gPgMVNurs4YjdW5VNYidU5SvLgoUBgaAgWo7x4C4tpEiOI FKS+MA+IOAycR4kjYYu9J1P/n0vZkfI6b+A5lQriSg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuCl4cBGrYHAI3FFIHvg9y5m8B6EBL1fRfaZppz640rw0xnbcg/OGxUwFvoRGwdKW/2v8gIIElQJ6u5jeGQrso= X-Received: by 10.200.13.75 with SMTP id r11mr27042240qti.133.1521582563434; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:49:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.37.234 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:48:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <45b40b35-dc98-fb23-e549-a7eda2aa6aeb@juniper.net> References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <22d87ac3-eabd-784b-da03-8929e5cb00f5@juniper.net> <45b40b35-dc98-fb23-e549-a7eda2aa6aeb@juniper.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 21:48:42 +0000 Message-ID: To: Eric C Rosen Cc: The IESG , Reshad , BIER WG , draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e08229d6830ba3e0567df0c89" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 21:49:26 -0000 --089e08229d6830ba3e0567df0c89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks. Based on this and a review of the BIER architecture I agree with this assessment. I think some text to this effect would be useful in the specification so it's clear why the risk is low. Would it be a problem to add some? -Ekr On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > On 3/15/2018 2:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> Because this is multicast, what I'm concerned with is whether it's >> possible to manipulate the routing fabric to mount a serious amplification >> attack. E.g., to cause a set of packets which should only have been sent to >> a small number of hosts to be amplified and sent to a large number of >> hosts. This seems like would be qualitatively different from just rerouting >> unicast traffic. Is this possible (assuming that the routing layer is not >> secured?) >> > > One could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data packet's > in-flight. Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all the > bits in the BIER BitString. These attacks are mentioned in the Security > Considerations section of RFC 8279. > > However, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS > control messages that would cause an amplification attack. > > The BFIR decides which hosts are to receive a packet. In making this > decision, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating > the encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulation for each > destination host. The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensions is used to > construct the forwarding tables that map each bit in the encapsulation into > a set of next hops for the host that is identified by that bit. > > If a BFR receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the > packet and forward multiple copies. However, a given bit will only be set > in one copy of the packet. > > So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modifying > the OSPF/ISIS messages. > > > > --089e08229d6830ba3e0567df0c89 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks. Based on this and a review of the BIER architectur= e I agree with this assessment.=C2=A0

I think some text = to this effect would be useful in the specification so it's clear why t= he risk is low. Would it be a problem to add some?

-= Ekr


On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Eric C Rosen <erosen= @juniper.net> wrote:
On 3/15/2018 2:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
Because this is multicast, what I'm concerned with is whether it's = possible to manipulate the routing fabric to mount a serious amplification = attack. E.g., to cause a set of packets which should only have been sent to= a small number of hosts to be amplified and sent to a large number of host= s. This seems like would be qualitatively different from just rerouting uni= cast traffic. Is this possible (assuming that the routing layer is not secu= red?)

 One could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data packet's = in-flight.=C2=A0 Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all = the bits in the BIER BitString.=C2=A0 These attacks are mentioned in the Se= curity Considerations section of RFC 8279.

However, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS= control messages that would cause an amplification attack.

The BFIR decides which hosts are to receive a packet.=C2=A0 In making this = decision, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating t= he encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulation for each desti= nation host.=C2=A0 The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensions is used to c= onstruct the forwarding tables that map each bit in the encapsulation into = a set of next hops for the host that is identified by that bit.

If a BFR receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the pa= cket and forward multiple copies.=C2=A0 However, a given bit will only be s= et in one copy of the packet.

So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modifying= the OSPF/ISIS messages.




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18:15:37 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: "nvo3@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , BIER WG Thread-Topic: [nvo3] New Version Notification for draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHTwJj5k5aT+lNwTki76uW4+0OtNQ== Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:15:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <152137493491.30148.10354340169701060496.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.116.133] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB6DAAE2FC7D4D62ACAD4208A8D12905ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] [nvo3] New Version Notification for draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header-04.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , 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<45b40b35-dc98-fb23-e549-a7eda2aa6aeb@juniper.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 23:28:16 +0000 Message-ID: To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: Eric C Rosen , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , BIER WG , The IESG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e08229d683e6bc50567e07071" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 23:29:03 -0000 --089e08229d683e6bc50567e07071 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) < ginsberg@cisco.com> wrote: > Eric =E2=80=93 > > > > (Speaking as author of BIER IS-IS draft =E2=80=93 which I assume would re= quire > equivalent changes) > > I appreciate the careful review you have done =E2=80=93 and the meaningfu= l > discussion you and Eric Rosen have had. > > > > If we spent our lives recording everything which is =E2=80=9CNOT a risk= =E2=80=9D in every > draft we would have much less available time and much longer and less > readable drafts. > The purpose of the Security Considerations section is to accurately document the security properties of the system. This includes attacks that it protects against. > If you are satisfied with the Security discussion in the BIER architectur= e > drafts I propose we leave it at that and allow the BIER IGP drafts to > proceed as is. > I didn't say I was satisfied with them. I said that between the drafts and Eric's explanation I was convinced this wasn't a problem. But other people will not have the benefit of that interaction. For that reason, and given that we know people will run the IGP in an unauthenticated mode, I think it's important to document what the consequences of compromise of the IGP are. Something like Eric's note should suffice. -Ekr > I believe they have accurately captured what are the security issues > associated with the IGP BIER extensions and I believe the BIER architectu= re > RFCs have done a good job detailing the security issues associated with > BIER itself. I believe that is exactly what is appropriate and what is > needed. > > > > Thanx. > > > > Les > > > > > > *From:* BIER *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 20, 2018 2:49 PM > *To:* Eric C Rosen > *Cc:* Reshad Rahman (rrahman) ; bier-chairs@ietf.org; > BIER WG ; The IESG ; > draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on > draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) > > > > Thanks. Based on this and a review of the BIER architecture I agree with > this assessment. > > > > I think some text to this effect would be useful in the specification so > it's clear why the risk is low. Would it be a problem to add some? > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > > On 3/15/2018 2:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Because this is multicast, what I'm concerned with is whether it's > possible to manipulate the routing fabric to mount a serious amplificatio= n > attack. E.g., to cause a set of packets which should only have been sent = to > a small number of hosts to be amplified and sent to a large number of > hosts. This seems like would be qualitatively different from just rerouti= ng > unicast traffic. Is this possible (assuming that the routing layer is not > secured?) > > > One could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data packet's > in-flight. Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all the > bits in the BIER BitString. These attacks are mentioned in the Security > Considerations section of RFC 8279. > > However, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS > control messages that would cause an amplification attack. > > The BFIR decides which hosts are to receive a packet. In making this > decision, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating > the encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulation for each > destination host. The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensions is used to > construct the forwarding tables that map each bit in the encapsulation in= to > a set of next hops for the host that is identified by that bit. > > If a BFR receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the > packet and forward multiple copies. However, a given bit will only be se= t > in one copy of the packet. > > So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modifying > the OSPF/ISIS messages. > > > > --089e08229d683e6bc50567e07071 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@c= isco.com> wrote:

Eric =E2=80=93

=C2=A0

(Speaking as author of BIER IS-IS dra= ft =E2=80=93 which I assume would require equivalent changes)=

I appreciate the careful review you h= ave done =E2=80=93 and the meaningful discussion you and Eric Rosen have ha= d.

=C2=A0

If we spent our lives recording every= thing which is =E2=80=9CNOT a risk=E2=80=9D in every draft we would have mu= ch less available time and much longer and less readable drafts.

=

The purpose of the Security Co= nsiderations section is to accurately document the security properties of t= he system. This includes attacks that it protects against.

=C2=A0

If you are satisfied with the Securit= y discussion in the BIER architecture drafts I propose we leave it at that = and allow the BIER IGP drafts to proceed as is.


I didn't say I was satisfied with them. I s= aid that between the drafts and Eric's explanation I was convinced this= wasn't a problem. But other people will not have the benefit of that i= nteraction. For that reason, and given that we know people will run the IGP= in an unauthenticated mode, I think it's important to document what th= e consequences of compromise of the IGP are. Something like Eric's note= should suffice.

-Ekr
=C2=A0

I believe they have accurately captured what are the security issues assoc= iated with the IGP BIER extensions and I believe the BIER architecture RFCs= have done a good job detailing the security issues associated with BIER it= self. I believe that is exactly what is appropriate and what is needed.

=C2=A0

Thanx.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 2:49 PM
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
Cc: Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.org; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>; The IESG= <iesg@ietf.org&g= t;; draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-o= spf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS)

=C2=A0

Thanks. Based on this and a review of the BIER archi= tecture I agree with this assessment.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think some text to this effect would be useful in = the specification so it's clear why the risk is low. Would it be a prob= lem to add some?

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net> wrote:

On 3/15/2018 2:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:=

Because this is multicast, what I'm concerned wi= th is whether it's possible to manipulate the routing fabric to mount a= serious amplification attack. E.g., to cause a set of packets which should= only have been sent to a small number of hosts to be amplified and sent to a large number of hosts. This seems like= would be qualitatively different from just rerouting unicast traffic. Is t= his possible (assuming that the routing layer is not secured?)


One could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data packet's = in-flight.=C2=A0 Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all = the bits in the BIER BitString.=C2=A0 These attacks are mentioned in the Se= curity Considerations section of RFC 8279.

However, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS= control messages that would cause an amplification attack.

The BFIR decides which hosts are to receive a packet.=C2=A0 In making this = decision, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating t= he encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulation for each desti= nation host.=C2=A0 The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensions is used to construct the forwarding tables that map e= ach bit in the encapsulation into a set of next hops for the host that is i= dentified by that bit.

If a BFR receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the pa= cket and forward multiple copies.=C2=A0 However, a given bit will only be s= et in one copy of the packet.

So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modifying= the OSPF/ISIS messages.


=C2=A0


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Rahman (rrahman)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , BIER WG , The IESG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHTqzjQtCMZ96elG0q9FqdD1n4T8KPRa+YAgACb/oCAAA/QgIAABQIAgAgLFgD//8PzwIAAV98AgAAUDrA= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 05:48:48 +0000 Message-ID: <99bf13289a44450a86508aa22bd12bf0@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <22d87ac3-eabd-784b-da03-8929e5cb00f5@juniper.net> <45b40b35-dc98-fb23-e549-a7eda2aa6aeb@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.5.233] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_99bf13289a44450a86508aa22bd12bf0XCHALN001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on 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FgU1yKTbj9fJWb/55MQ71jZsSJqljlnINmmeMquuNuuJDBksrj3AieBDgsJVlybtv5qm mrjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7F+tVaYOl/AokjOSkVQyEROBHKAR9Ejo26mLrPK20kELy/bddqf 6cskpYJxlpHI9lvojAVxNvTx7bXN+6ZvlxBajRsQoA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvL4nKMOAL5HX9Ap+RTp8ghsane6xV8a7dw5yz8YuVVQru9IW1z5G3zKY8L6p3OPwyVrC/TJh5Ol7Xe0B29/E8= X-Received: by 10.55.23.101 with SMTP id i98mr27974106qkh.91.1521613509303; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 23:25:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.37.234 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 23:24:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <99bf13289a44450a86508aa22bd12bf0@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <22d87ac3-eabd-784b-da03-8929e5cb00f5@juniper.net> <45b40b35-dc98-fb23-e549-a7eda2aa6aeb@juniper.net> <99bf13289a44450a86508aa22bd12bf0@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 06:24:28 +0000 Message-ID: To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: Eric C Rosen , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , BIER WG , The IESG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113e9164b5336f0567e64075" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 06:25:13 -0000 --001a113e9164b5336f0567e64075 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 5:48 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Eric =E2=80=93 > > > > What Eric Rosen said was (some emphasis added): > > > > *=E2=80=9COne could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data p= acket's > in-flight. Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all the > bits in the BIER BitString. These attacks are mentioned in the Security > Considerations section of RFC 8279.* > > > > *However, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS > control messages that would cause an amplification attack.* > > > > *The BFIR decides which hosts are to receive a packet. In making this > decision, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating > the encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulation for each > destination host. The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensions is used to > construct the forwarding tables that map each bit in the encapsulation in= to > a set of next hops for the host that is identified by that bit.* > > > > *If a BFR receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the > packet and forward multiple copies. However, a given bit will only be se= t > in one copy of the packet.* > > > > *So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modifying > the OSPF/ISIS messages.=E2=80=9D* > > > > If (as you suggest below) you are not satisfied with the discussion in RF= C > 8279 then the proper thing to do is to suggest an update to RFC 8279 =E2= =80=93 not > to insert a discussion of BIER security issues into the IGP drafts. > Sorry, I also don't agree with this. BIER provides a mechanism for the routing of the multicast packets but not for setting up the topology. It leaves open how that topology is set up. These documents describe how to set up that topology and permit that topology to be set up in a way that is subject to attack by on-path attackers. The discussion of the security impact of that decision is therefore properly in these documents. -Ekr Note that the BIER IS-IS draft already includes the statement: > > > > *=E2=80=9CBIER specific security considerations are discussed in [RFC8279= ].=E2=80=9D* > > > > I would suggest that the same statement be added to the BIER OSPF draft. > > > > Les > > > > > > *From:* Eric Rescorla > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 20, 2018 4:28 PM > *To:* Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > *Cc:* Eric C Rosen ; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) < > rrahman@cisco.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.org; BIER WG ; The > IESG ; draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on > draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) < > ginsberg@cisco.com> wrote: > > Eric =E2=80=93 > > > > (Speaking as author of BIER IS-IS draft =E2=80=93 which I assume would re= quire > equivalent changes) > > I appreciate the careful review you have done =E2=80=93 and the meaningfu= l > discussion you and Eric Rosen have had. > > > > If we spent our lives recording everything which is =E2=80=9CNOT a risk= =E2=80=9D in every > draft we would have much less available time and much longer and less > readable drafts. > > > > The purpose of the Security Considerations section is to accurately > document the security properties of the system. This includes attacks tha= t > it protects against. > > > > > > If you are satisfied with the Security discussion in the BIER architectur= e > drafts I propose we leave it at that and allow the BIER IGP drafts to > proceed as is. > > > > I didn't say I was satisfied with them. I said that between the drafts an= d > Eric's explanation I was convinced this wasn't a problem. But other peopl= e > will not have the benefit of that interaction. For that reason, and given > that we know people will run the IGP in an unauthenticated mode, I think > it's important to document what the consequences of compromise of the IGP > are. Something like Eric's note should suffice. > > > > -Ekr > > > > I believe they have accurately captured what are the security issues > associated with the IGP BIER extensions and I believe the BIER architectu= re > RFCs have done a good job detailing the security issues associated with > BIER itself. I believe that is exactly what is appropriate and what is > needed. > > > > Thanx. > > > > Les > > > > > > *From:* BIER *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 20, 2018 2:49 PM > *To:* Eric C Rosen > *Cc:* Reshad Rahman (rrahman) ; bier-chairs@ietf.org; > BIER WG ; The IESG ; > draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on > draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) > > > > Thanks. Based on this and a review of the BIER architecture I agree with > this assessment. > > > > I think some text to this effect would be useful in the specification so > it's clear why the risk is low. Would it be a problem to add some? > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Eric C Rosen wrote: > > On 3/15/2018 2:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Because this is multicast, what I'm concerned with is whether it's > possible to manipulate the routing fabric to mount a serious amplificatio= n > attack. E.g., to cause a set of packets which should only have been sent = to > a small number of hosts to be amplified and sent to a large number of > hosts. This seems like would be qualitatively different from just rerouti= ng > unicast traffic. Is this possible (assuming that the routing layer is not > secured?) > > > One could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data packet's > in-flight. Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all the > bits in the BIER BitString. These attacks are mentioned in the Security > Considerations section of RFC 8279. > > However, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS > control messages that would cause an amplification attack. > > The BFIR decides which hosts are to receive a packet. In making this > decision, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating > the encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulation for each > destination host. The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensions is used to > construct the forwarding tables that map each bit in the encapsulation in= to > a set of next hops for the host that is identified by that bit. > > If a BFR receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the > packet and forward multiple copies. However, a given bit will only be se= t > in one copy of the packet. > > So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modifying > the OSPF/ISIS messages. > > > > > --001a113e9164b5336f0567e64075 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 5:48 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@ci= sco.com> wrote:

Eric =E2=80=93

=C2=A0

What Eric Rosen said was (some emphas= is added):

=C2=A0

=E2=80= =9COne could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data packet'= ;s in-flight.=C2=A0 Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all the bits in the BIER BitString.=C2=A0 These attacks are men= tioned in the Security Considerations section of RFC 8279.

= =C2=A0

Howe= ver, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS con= trol messages that would cause an amplification attack.

= =C2=A0

The BFI= R decides which hosts are to receive a packet.=C2=A0 In making this decisio= n, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating the encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulatio= n for each destination host.=C2=A0 The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensi= ons is used to construct the forwarding tables that map each bit in the enc= apsulation into a set of next hops for the host that is identified by that bit.

= =C2=A0

If a BF= R receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the packet an= d forward multiple copies.=C2=A0 However, a given bit will only be set in one copy of the packet.

= =C2=A0

So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modif= ying the OSPF/ISIS messages.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

If (as you suggest below) you are not= satisfied with the discussion in RFC 8279 then the proper thing to do is t= o suggest an update to RFC 8279 =E2=80=93 not to insert a discussion of BIER security issues into the IGP drafts.

=

Sorry, I also don't agree with t= his. BIER provides a mechanism for the routing of the multicast packets but= not for setting up the topology. It leaves open how that topology is set u= p. These documents describe how to set up that topology and permit that top= ology to be set up in a way that is subject to attack by on-path attackers.= The discussion of the security impact of that decision is therefore proper= ly in these documents.

-Ekr



Note that the BIER IS-IS draft alread= y includes the statement:

=C2=A0

=E2=80= =9CBIER specific security considerations are discussed in [RFC8279].=E2=80= =9D

=C2=A0

I would suggest that the same stateme= nt be added to the BIER OSPF draft.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 4:28 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.org= ; BIER WG <bier@i= etf.org>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensi= ons@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-o= spf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Les Ginsberg (gins= berg) <ginsberg@= cisco.com> wrote:

Eric =E2=80=93

=C2=A0

(Speaking as author of BIER IS-IS dra= ft =E2=80=93 which I assume would require equivalent changes)=

I appreciate the careful review you h= ave done =E2=80=93 and the meaningful discussion you and Eric Rosen have had.

=C2=A0

If we spent our lives recording every= thing which is =E2=80=9CNOT a risk=E2=80=9D in every draft we would have mu= ch less available time and much longer and less readable drafts.

=C2=A0

The purpose of the Security Considerations section i= s to accurately document the security properties of the system. This includ= es attacks that it protects against.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

If you are satisfied with the Securit= y discussion in the BIER architecture drafts I propose we leave it at that and allow the BIER IGP drafts to proceed as is.

=C2=A0

I didn't say I was satisfied with them. I said t= hat between the drafts and Eric's explanation I was convinced this wasn= 't a problem. But other people will not have the benefit of that intera= ction. For that reason, and given that we know people will run the IGP in an unauthenticated mode, I think it's impor= tant to document what the consequences of compromise of the IGP are. Someth= ing like Eric's note should suffice.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

I believe they have accurately captur= ed what are the security issues associated with the IGP BIER extensions and I believe the BIER architecture RFCs have done a good job detailing th= e security issues associated with BIER itself. I believe that is exactly wh= at is appropriate and what is needed.

=C2=A0

Thanx.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 2:49 PM
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
Cc: Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cisco.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.= org; BIER WG <bie= r@ietf.org>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-o= spf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS)

=C2=A0

Thanks. Based on this and a review of the BIER archi= tecture I agree with this assessment.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think some text to this effect would be useful in = the specification so it's clear why the risk is low. Would it be a prob= lem to add some?

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 6:58 PM, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net> wrote:

On 3/15/2018 2:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:=

Because this is multicast, what I'm concerned wi= th is whether it's possible to manipulate the routing fabric to mount a= serious amplification attack. E.g., to cause a set of packets which should only have been sent to a small number of hosts to be amplifie= d and sent to a large number of hosts. This seems like would be qualitative= ly different from just rerouting unicast traffic. Is this possible (assumin= g that the routing layer is not secured?)


One could cause an amplification attack by modifying the data packet's = in-flight.=C2=A0 Or one could compromise an ingress BFR (BFIR) and set all = the bits in the BIER BitString.=C2=A0 These attacks are mentioned in the Se= curity Considerations section of RFC 8279.

However, I don't think there is anything one can do to the OSPF or ISIS= control messages that would cause an amplification attack.

The BFIR decides which hosts are to receive a packet.=C2=A0 In making this = decision, it is not influenced by the IGP control messages. When creating t= he encapsulation, the BFIR sets one bit in the encapsulation for each desti= nation host.=C2=A0 The information in the OSPF/ISIS extensions is used to construct the forwarding tables that map e= ach bit in the encapsulation into a set of next hops for the host that is i= dentified by that bit.

If a BFR receives a packet with n bits set, it may have to replicate the pa= cket and forward multiple copies.=C2=A0 However, a given bit will only be s= et in one copy of the packet.

So I don't see how one could mount an amplification attack by modifying= the OSPF/ISIS messages.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


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"Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Eric Rescorla , "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" CC: Eric C Rosen , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , BIER WG , The IESG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHTvDdfYzULG6moXkevkxvcMavgVqPR5eeAgAAP0ICAAAUCAIAICxYAgAAaGQCAAAG5AIAAalIAgAAJ9wCAAByEAA== Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 12:06:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <22d87ac3-eabd-784b-da03-8929e5cb00f5@juniper.net> <45b40b35-dc98-fb23-e549-a7eda2aa6aeb@juniper.net> <99bf13289a44450a86508aa22bd12bf0@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.a.0.180210 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.20.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E2E1BD9452B8428A908036BBC81948ACciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 12:06:39 -0000 --_000_E2E1BD9452B8428A908036BBC81948ACciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRXJpYyBSZXNjb3JsYSwNCg0KPEVyaWM+IFNvcnJ5LCBJIGFsc28gZG9uJ3QgYWdyZWUgd2l0 aCB0aGlzLiBCSUVSIHByb3ZpZGVzIGEgbWVjaGFuaXNtIGZvciB0aGUgcm91dGluZyBvZiB0aGUg bXVsdGljYXN0IHBhY2tldHMgYnV0IG5vdCBmb3Igc2V0dGluZyB1cCB0aGUgdG9wb2xvZ3kuIEl0 IGxlYXZlcyBvcGVuIGhvdyB0aGF0IHRvcG9sb2d5IGlzIHNldCB1cC4gVGhlc2UgZG9jdW1lbnRz IGRlc2NyaWJlIGhvdyB0byBzZXQgdXAgdGhhdCB0b3BvbG9neSBhbmQgcGVybWl0IHRoYXQgdG9w 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21 06:47:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB06412E8CB for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 06:46:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LGOzf6IjniaZ for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 06:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (mx04.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.5.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F70D12702E for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 06:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.135.141] (dhcp-878d.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.135.141]) by mx04.uni-tuebingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D5AC736C55 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 14:46:40 +0100 (CET) To: bier@ietf.org From: Michael Menth Message-ID: <912655c5-a335-4386-4b0e-323f9cca13e4@uni-tuebingen.de> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 14:47:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BIER Overview in IETF Journal X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:46:55 -0000 https://www.ietfjournal.org/an-overview-of-bit-index-explicit-replication-bier/ -- Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth University of Tuebingen Faculty of Science Department of Computer Science Chair of Communication Networks Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505 fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220 mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de From nobody Wed Mar 21 13:07:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDAD12785F for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:07:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.23 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.23 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ktC7NcM1QFLE for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8075D12706D for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 9A02B574659DC for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:07:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:07:47 +0000 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 22 Mar 2018 04:07:33 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: BIER WG Thread-Topic: FYI==>//RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp-01.txt Thread-Index: AdPBUEKaW8HHU7zWRuK1FBXXFYVxCQ== Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:07:32 +0000 Message-ID: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A1F3A8@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.82.79] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] FYI==>//RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-mpls-p2mp-01.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:07:53 -0000 SGkgQklFUidlcnMsDQoNCkkgcmVhbGx5IG1lc3MgdXAgdGhlIHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBmb3IgdGhp cyBkcmFmdCAgaW4gdGhlIElFVEYxMDEgbWVldGluZyB0aGlzIGFmdGVybm9vbiB3aGVuIEkgbG9z 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Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D29127873; Thu, 22 Mar 2018 04:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.961 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.961 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U1X7847nHqd3; Thu, 22 Mar 2018 04:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83AA412420B; Thu, 22 Mar 2018 04:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EA258C4D8; Thu, 22 Mar 2018 12:53:33 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 08691B0DDD5; Thu, 22 Mar 2018 12:53:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 12:53:32 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: aretana.ietf@gmail.com Cc: bier-chairs@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180322115332.GA19374@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Alvaro: Bier trash cleanup ? X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 11:53:39 -0000 Alvaro: https://www.ietf.org/how/community-discussions/nonwg/ Lists bier as a non-wg mailing list. Looks like a leftover from many years ago. Just FYI in case you feel like spring cleaning. Not even sure where the description comes from (except the end...): Standardization related to RFC 3015 (and ITU-T Recommendation H.248) protocol is carried out jointly by the IETF Megaco Working Group and ITU-T Stydy Group 16 Question 3.")This list is for discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of the bit indexed explicit replication architecture, components, and use-cases in preparation to the upcoming BoF. Where can i buy a "Megaco Bier" ? ;-) From nobody Fri Mar 23 05:10:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C3D12D880 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2018 05:10:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mJJIYn68e5rt for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2018 05:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x229.google.com (mail-lf0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C17BE12D873 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2018 05:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id g203-v6so17921592lfg.11 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2018 05:10:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=YRFyxxpEyXjSuLpJmuTz0FqE6Pqk1fvYUKoaZGyxSG0=; b=JTQCjOZj30sa0m3u62bjR5xOgW0neLJic4j3FAkmt2uGSPaFA7hYpqyAL3i6zpzM/y KuPE/u3LNdESgMexjBRSWam8rvexOtDbQrNxMyyRodbm7zeMAtFSSQDOD5Xwvpezl4V2 evMbTiG8ThPtF6tvvXsefKA35M9b1S4AUvpMgHAjCJBPNlD3bm+CGURCm/SJbWw23c2P mkWdqk+AahSPqFouyo64TVYIK2LutAgfqyxfTebMgeoChOU4gbq0EU7w8AYLMg857g/V O7tjXcgTvDZAppo3GipltEhyJEhH+HU3N5IwSzQOhhTvdCjYmnQ0dXU2Mtwy6ViQWZfO fiIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=YRFyxxpEyXjSuLpJmuTz0FqE6Pqk1fvYUKoaZGyxSG0=; b=gpy4xDltQzWMNwVqY2QV/rvBoM29Q+1V9Q4mKlOFT6pFQMg+TmoElg5Qu0UeZVw070 LvDcUzIbfmcOhJN5FfFAk9p71gw0/0QCf+0qndSfYuqQeHdhIoQRFzwdbjW4PIQv9X/Y v9zATo2mtOUHlGAedN4yPfFE4eSQhW1WxU3yTFFwDN2iNS0y/pOGuzwZXAKE3JjKicQ2 KobyoZc3DmhQUgrAC4Y9aL2U5v7JHTFdoCxAZCaeUuTYkwcHyvDVmgwjn/XO2P4dlTPg RtwQg2bNqyDsNCbY4RR/aDWpE+6Ln+nFZkLuJlcXdMPQKnWSNWoLxP/hY9KekRKN6gji Zm5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7E7eVRK1dti12esX5rAXWyQtycx11aq9cpZI/+c3G7ukjeaxnmW mQIO/igwZeZcOAx4R/UEJ9uttu2fm/BOnpFbbmgvzx95 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuTZvvC7CnKfV2L6W9d2VUJJrlNiHCyxjEFu/1Lig58BebIiwfSwKESr3pjuU1AQKou/AhuPVAnTpzt7FIosb0= X-Received: by 10.46.129.153 with SMTP id e25mr16028925ljg.69.1521807027445; Fri, 23 Mar 2018 05:10:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.145.195 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Mar 2018 05:10:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 12:10:26 +0000 Message-ID: To: BIER WG , Loa Andersson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f4f5e80c7dec49a7990568134fb8" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Possible conflict between nibble value in RFC 8296 and IANA registry of IP version number X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 12:10:58 -0000 --f4f5e80c7dec49a7990568134fb8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, RFC 8296 explains the nibble field on BIER header as: Nibble: This field is set to the binary value 0101; this ensures that the MPLS ECMP logic will not confuse the remainder of the BIER header with an IP header or with the header of a pseudowire packet. In an MPLS network, if a BFR receives a BIER packet with any other value in the first nibble after the label stack, it SHOULD discard the packet and log an error. But IANA registry for IP version numbers reflects allocation of 5 for ST RFC 1819 (thanks to Loa for pointing me to the registry): Decimal Keyword Version Reference 0-1 Reserved [Jon_Postel][RFC4928] 2-3 Unassigned [Jon_Postel] 4 IP Internet Protocol [RFC791][Jon_Postel] 5 ST ST Datagram Mode [RFC1819][Jim_Forgie] 6 IPv6 Internet Protocol version 6 [RFC8200] 7 TP/IX TP/IX: The Next Internet [RFC6814] 8 PIP The P Internet Protocol [RFC1621] 9 TUBA TUBA [RFC1347] 10-14 Unassigned [Jon_Postel] 15 Reserved [Jon_Postel] Perhaps ST Datagram never saw the light of deployment but, as it looks, we may have formal conflict at hand. The way to remedy the situation may be to re-assign value 5 to BIER or, at the minimum, make it reserved. What do you think? Regards, Greg --f4f5e80c7dec49a7990568134fb8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
RFC 8296 explains the nibble field on BIER h= eader as:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Nibble:

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This field is set to the binary value 0101; this ensures = that the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MPLS ECMP logic will not confuse th= e remainder of the BIER header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with an IP he= ader or with the header of a pseudowire packet.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 an MPLS network, if a BFR receives a BIER packet with any oth= er
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 value in the first nibble after the label= stack, it SHOULD discard
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the packet and log= an error.

But IANA registry for IP = version numbers reflects allocation of 5 for ST RFC 1819 (thanks to Loa= for pointing me to the registry):

Decimal Keyword Version Reference=C2=A0<= /div>
0-1 Reserved [Jon_Postel][RFC4928]
2-3 Unassigned [Jon_Postel]
4 IP Internet Protocol [RFC791][Jon_Postel]
5 ST ST Datagram Mode [RFC1819][Jim_Forgie]
6 IPv6 Internet Protocol version 6 [RF= C8200]
7 TP/IX TP/IX: The Next Internet [RFC6814]
8 PIP The P Internet Protocol [RFC1621]
9 TUBA TUBA [RFC1347]
10-14 Unassigned = [Jon_Postel]
15 Reserved<= span style=3D"white-space:pre"> [Jon_Postel]

Perhaps ST Datagram never saw the light of deployment but, as it lo= oks, we may have formal conflict at hand. The way to remedy the situation m= ay be to re-assign value 5 to BIER or, at the minimum, make it reserved.
What do you think?

Regards,
Greg=
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Mar 2018 20:26:59 +0800 From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "BIER" , "BIER WG" , "Loa Andersson" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: <354a0aa0-cb37-4067-88ba-4a2b3c38de5c.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 948139][W4_5211206][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5211206_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_16963_557e8940_5ab4f293_42908d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?Possible_conflict_between_nibble_value_in_RFC_8?= =?utf-8?q?296_and_IANA_registry_of_IP_version_number?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1803230194 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Possible conflict between nibble value in RFC 8296 and IANA registry of IP version number X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 17:10:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------96F5ED35EBB05508ED67E754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This issue was discussed extensively on the mailing list in April of 2016.  You may wish to consult the archives, look for the subject "The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation". The conflict you mention below does not exist because the first nibble of the BIER encapsulation is not a value taken from the "IP Version Number" registry. BTW,  ST was actually deployed in the 1970's and it is possible that a few ST implementations were still around in the early-to-mid 1980's. On 3/23/2018 8:10 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear All, > RFC 8296 explains the nibble field on BIER header as: >    Nibble: > >       This field is set to the binary value 0101; this ensures that the >       MPLS ECMP logic will not confuse the remainder of the BIER header >       with an IP header or with the header of a pseudowire packet.  In >       an MPLS network, if a BFR receives a BIER packet with any other >       value in the first nibble after the label stack, it SHOULD discard >       the packet and log an error. > > But IANA registry for IP version numbers > > reflects allocation of 5 for ST RFC 1819 (thanks to Loa for pointing > me to the registry): > > Decimal Keyword Version Reference > 0-1Reserved[Jon_Postel][RFC4928] > 2-3Unassigned[Jon_Postel] > 4IPInternet Protocol[RFC791][Jon_Postel] > 5STST Datagram Mode[RFC1819][Jim_Forgie] > 6IPv6Internet Protocol version 6[RFC8200] > 7TP/IXTP/IX: The Next Internet[RFC6814] > 8PIPThe P Internet Protocol[RFC1621] > 9TUBATUBA[RFC1347] > 10-14Unassigned[Jon_Postel] > 15Reserved[Jon_Postel] > > Perhaps ST Datagram never saw the light of deployment but, as it > looks, we may have formal conflict at hand. The way to remedy the > situation may be to re-assign value 5 to BIER or, at the minimum, make > it reserved. > What do you think? > > Regards, > Greg > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=-DXB84eU9m4cIlq2OOcCJCQQAwJXQQswyu3F0kG0VNo&m=qBfmUmqT2F34aAOWqRNReo3_XIMvcBGSqsnmIh1Z5oM&s=WHbowmfFpDGB5f6Gy-lmsb6F0-tvDIXeu6eQgZQ7rks&e= --------------96F5ED35EBB05508ED67E754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This issue was discussed extensively on the mailing list in April of 2016.  You may wish to consult the archives, look for the subject "The first nibble issue associated with MPLS encapsulation".

The conflict you mention below does not exist because the first nibble of the BIER encapsulation is not a value taken from the "IP Version Number" registry.

BTW,  ST was actually deployed in the 1970's and it is possible that a few ST implementations were still around in the early-to-mid 1980's.





On 3/23/2018 8:10 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
Dear All,
RFC 8296 explains the nibble field on BIER header as:
   Nibble:

      This field is set to the binary value 0101; this ensures that the
      MPLS ECMP logic will not confuse the remainder of the BIER header
      with an IP header or with the header of a pseudowire packet.  In
      an MPLS network, if a BFR receives a BIER packet with any other
      value in the first nibble after the label stack, it SHOULD discard
      the packet and log an error.

But IANA registry for IP version numbers reflects allocation of 5 for ST RFC 1819 (thanks to Loa for pointing me to the registry):

Decimal Keyword Version Reference 
0-1 Reserved [Jon_Postel][RFC4928]
2-3 Unassigned [Jon_Postel]
4 IP Internet Protocol [RFC791][Jon_Postel]
5 ST ST Datagram Mode [RFC1819][Jim_Forgie]
6 IPv6 Internet Protocol version 6 [RFC8200]
7 TP/IX TP/IX: The Next Internet [RFC6814]
8 PIP The P Internet Protocol [RFC1621]
9 TUBA TUBA [RFC1347]
10-14 Unassigned [Jon_Postel]
15 Reserved [Jon_Postel]

Perhaps ST Datagram never saw the light of deployment but, as it looks, we may have formal conflict at hand. The way to remedy the situation may be to re-assign value 5 to BIER or, at the minimum, make it reserved.
What do you think?

Regards,
Greg


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=-DXB84eU9m4cIlq2OOcCJCQQAwJXQQswyu3F0kG0VNo&m=qBfmUmqT2F34aAOWqRNReo3_XIMvcBGSqsnmIh1Z5oM&s=WHbowmfFpDGB5f6Gy-lmsb6F0-tvDIXeu6eQgZQ7rks&e=

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We have solid support to adopt this draft as a working gro= up item. There are still some issues to iron out. Let's keep the discus= sion moving.

Authors, can you please resubmit with the W= G name change and I'll accept.

Cheers,
Greg
(Chairs)

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Greg Shepherd <gjshe= p@gmail.com> wrote:
In Singapore we had solid support to adopt=C2=A0draft-wijnandsxu-= bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding as a WG draft.

This is = a call to the list for adoption. Please read and reply with/without support= to this thread:


Thanks,
Greg

--001a113f22563c8c1505686b1da8-- From nobody Tue Mar 27 14:03:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056F312D874 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UQpzTYZ9eVWd for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x231.google.com (mail-it0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08142127867 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x231.google.com with SMTP id v194-v6so973358itb.0 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:03:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=P7Jp8GYLnW1DGaz6+N8LmcFG974WQUobI1gqEWP/S9Y=; b=dHAvLz++jVkQHN4bx+nVtCy8eqXm8v26fEZVkPN8Rn5Y/wSpqGPnbwsy/QtHxHU95K LeRAZMiyPmV5qKRA58SeOYmCdwX1jlfn+uRZ2xXF8e/5m5hlNiZCDfZFWyPm5noQCLu5 elFAv09mckCvGaw+py/Un5ZWt0AoG7VFwUURizrUS5RbHhacXVShDIGyF39pq1p0Uh9K BNjUOrE+dYqfJbGd3JoUX9aOpufMhWqii0EazoQhZu5jNDJoEfmOzS7Q3J6FFNtugMHi +dJAlp3+kECX7K4OKdrtjoZMkYX3e5jESOwfEzVOPtgTmzGJTlIIYIIn7NN02RILRkAF fhcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=P7Jp8GYLnW1DGaz6+N8LmcFG974WQUobI1gqEWP/S9Y=; b=nNfslXMLIJm7WcOkZ3MwNpFeYQATY/ueuea/rc+Ic+3GlX33OkbuZ7WZa/MmBcjyWs B2/OReUfuLgBpVzAT9v7idnZqvPUgMqsN64irg/cghmoiHL8wBqyLOo7TFFJUHkUgG6p RyTLVI5JJ6A3Oh3o2orMrzZEBvwiq3rllxy1LmHjqnVMkmw7Emhd4Qd6rOom0jkNe776 Lprm/9+mszicOwJ7YJT8qD1fy+5/UmbLLlrDZ+X0aBIImKTnwn7Xhs64+BoVSa+6g39H azSk2aruzsSGV2IjsrfV+0K1G6N6YdsTbE4H0mewWKVmriT/VzbR2g/LUpfmikd6tgWk vvdw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7GOe8674tVkujFH6CmizTAdedKEUaRJZb4uYQuRKBKUGyva4JpW s7wRmr+nuz0N5noj98YuWiznpb9OQQK5IsR/jqNyqQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+T20dNdyY6XjrsAXDdRoarQ8NKK242EZVkNlhHHuF9QLJlwxiB8fBhGARxHCxqZOU4q3fZ3oHhnZMv0T7qwDo= X-Received: by 2002:a24:32c4:: with SMTP id j187-v6mr865879ita.85.1522184635232; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:03:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.98.79 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:03:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000077395805686b3adf" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:03:58 -0000 --00000000000077395805686b3adf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We had solid support in London to adopt draft-zzhang-algorithms as a WG item. Please respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-algorithm/ Thanks, Greg (Chairs) --00000000000077395805686b3adf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We had solid support in London to adopt =C2=A0draft-zzhang= -algorithms as a WG item. Please respond to this thread with/without your s= upport to adopt:


Thanks,
Gr= eg
(Chairs)
--00000000000077395805686b3adf-- From nobody Tue Mar 27 14:05:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E5012D940 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:05:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ruiK3UYj0nUz for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9854412D874 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k135-v6so1003633ite.2 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:05:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AxI9qABFDvmrijtb3K2RNKHGyFzyW9BBbFAT/Jenu1Y=; b=p/mxxf298VeCDncNmKRuDctqll89UtvaP4yLrvcXAACp0IMLf8hjbY5zYKhKxD1Ne/ DBxejqp1JUEbyHx7YnGpEQl5O33XPPv7DDjWOFpUpNatqoxioF+GxJNJvy2VWktUFXHG Ivj78ZvUtRyZ+F2XkIdTvm3eljAFOBFQ6A8fKSpu6Y/LK2IJKYzC3ecK5jzy9JytA0MB BjnSh2GAfLRACdhZLpGgYM22+0TAYPUI58fWKXUoaQM4kQfJYe+5BnZlxkUO09w4r/y1 4t2fP06btf9Y7lTUXkpvyDMJCNhQ0xPbopWp2b+sA8PDDERhPFudGce/7l0eY1f5HZ0J 6RFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=AxI9qABFDvmrijtb3K2RNKHGyFzyW9BBbFAT/Jenu1Y=; b=fDGrhuHJR23Yu8zkfURlxJaOlFWo2yMc7aVuxdkimuP+sDJuQtP0pb4mJzTYZwi4Jm vQ9yhtWuqEqo4iCH4vXOrazNtPFyTY1UXhXi3OA4Wfq2lSW1E5wKVeHtNT2CteKlnoVV ANbpMxlqyJbZtLZ0oxwe49dGPtJ3F6Pv9CXov/N40G1T/KVdG9dXXNr4LBvhtBV4QXJn tIZE3RyOVEbO+DgZnrdfGIzjbwSM3iE+xRfnO1ls3O4Db8rM7zjjXokJWyfs27LvaQXB ZYubLnqCWQzJ2wMnvhmDmpE1glqh3gHbQWzUtfkenAINLwRHoPmKBCjmjZFbL40e69jh EDcA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7F8M0Et7EWO9+wCQi+cj9z8CoECjSqJJtr830P0eXygaQtv4Dyb FdawYWG3tNqnm0kurxFU5ItM/DfThbajy/7wUmGCrQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4959N3uUpNQbQfVpChSyPEtZ75DVAhiolnd9Df7Kok93ZFBRnVrM/KFqrGqjnAs2VOBVko1WQP3dE7Zzdxj99k= X-Received: by 2002:a24:32c4:: with SMTP id j187-v6mr871238ita.85.1522184721812; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:05:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.98.79 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:05:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0524805686b3f57" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:05:25 -0000 --000000000000a0524805686b3f57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There was solid support in the room in London to adopt. Please read/respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa as a BIER WG item. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa/ Thanks, Greg (Chairs) --000000000000a0524805686b3f57 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was solid support in the room in London to adopt. Pl= ease read/respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt=C2=A0dr= aft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa as a BIER WG item.


Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)
--000000000000a0524805686b3f57-- From nobody Tue Mar 27 14:15:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955AF12D874 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:15:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IGOiaJRLMHfk for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57A16127867 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id e7so981556iof.2 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:15:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uC9IAXRSxb4LnzCqqyDi4ufH97d/zUEfKdCr3FDXXXk=; b=H2C44q4hXtTXbqObzQY3by/2ue1lx/iMfZ9hkVXgwp2uoMgoeHCKg99GOsJ22T1C9f kyHt91FK4cF1zAt+C7ICGN8B3IP+ZTf2asQGCGWQ5MZgwDxKlUEKS9yNXRrwC5c6qVD2 w2iNyy8535lb1ZsunQn3S7JCdt4lX4Y0z21VO2Q5Y9y7UhRWGr3bNm2Av5Psyy3m7M/x FF1AuuzIP+ou+DFvbpy0yQdcx03pRleagJeirlcq2F8mhmKxVQeK48gz6Pr/zE5a5Win egWy1gb3ylzR9B36MR1k7wenXIyETgLdEIJRexRhsEop/vjh5z2qxKBMqA+WgbBaFVQa 1QxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uC9IAXRSxb4LnzCqqyDi4ufH97d/zUEfKdCr3FDXXXk=; b=VWiSY1vjzM6NkPss0MFSpmjMRJHK6O6R6qSibcW7pojTrAfvjL54kH37Ep+wf9kABI Lsc55P34n6XXiw/kJ842c8Y0J46jtY5SxweKxxspeynTYFOPtvzlJKWULXPGj+XjRfKT VclYoE0z+CJDvbFD12I6FCXttIg3/GDyxV+4gHDK2++5BvDiYUyvGWo5fyhRVCu3uVuR fxT+SqaXwW353z/ipJJ5CUT+H3UIh43wflweNDEmM5grJlqmH9KyfNjPlm0OZrdD7yrk wA8vkUoCFeK9uv9BiM6AE5f0m9sVyQ5s+rSBrMqooi2OZWzMOJeR91yb26z2wUmNFk58 uvcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7E2pThe+kGTquTelCOrI4ibwmHC11I/lQt1+d2fkVzR8vdg1Ad1 +tK8vFTQjhUKzIzXGOaYNh+nj3ChMoOobaV3eSs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsHdf4ok2+rlG0MauUQ8B1wObxnBqITM5gNbuX0QLGntEoSQY+ly9CNQwKxHAuukE6MYD2KA1kG9B8O4tGNHMU= X-Received: by 10.107.202.132 with SMTP id a126mr46057467iog.217.1522185333706; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:15:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jeff Tantsura Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:15:23 +0000 Message-ID: To: gjshep@gmail.com Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0bb87219139205686b6423" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:15:36 -0000 --94eb2c0bb87219139205686b6423 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes/support On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 14:05 Greg Shepherd wrote: > There was solid support in the room in London to adopt. Please > read/respond to this thread with/without your support to > adopt draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa as a BIER WG item. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa/ > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --94eb2c0bb87219139205686b6423 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes/support
On Tue, Mar 27, = 2018 at 14:05 Greg Shepherd <gjshep@= gmail.com> wrote:
There was solid support in the room in London to adopt. Please rea= d/respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt=C2=A0draft-zzha= ng-bier-bar-ipa as a BIER WG item.

Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)
_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
--94eb2c0bb87219139205686b6423-- From nobody Tue Mar 27 14:49:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6FB126CC7 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:49:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bzh3Ifa2kUuG for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 417E1124234 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id l201so1392426wmg.0 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:49:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s1RNI8luYI7Lg+5gPB01T+WrkmCAjJQlv9IazBMtJEk=; b=eI3mjsdWISRAdHTL2/4+otFkcOnc+hGPAUw7q3i9Tku6Qu21Hval4ZCWEbGGKWZE6E gIwvqThJlzk6926dw0QXsnzv94V1Bxv5kkBoLR2BoBtXEAi9Vz+kyDQ1pl6J2l/c7DGR YB885J7WS6uRZqgpNJ7rOz0w02ciMtEOhKToNV/VRKFqYDwg3USai0buT93kOE6fcFKr foJ81FEQUYJFb1ma1fjkrv51OsoVHxE3KwFN7L1kyugI37X3Y3EtSszipi18O6E4AMup ZR6BQRjeWdfRoVtIaqnsdBPSAxR8Q8905Jm39zYRkeB6P+QqI1SefG/0E/kVgPWDobqa mnVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s1RNI8luYI7Lg+5gPB01T+WrkmCAjJQlv9IazBMtJEk=; b=AlUemASg0GKn6bfJ45fRYlNoK2rh3D1SJyHgiUynReg0XbUd7vzF7vTtl6eXr9CsYv bqaG9HWP8G8IVfdZPDhhmKGaozc+6i9ww9ceqgbsYLKbhwT29qEXzrG1hr+nquTqD/sv Z3E+81LxEkItVUSjeRSrrjwqxoXXM/lFfwwiAu3+zQYeFS/vC/D435MViAInhyHObqK0 oxmestYKVK/4VzUIO6/my3Z4pwIblgJGDIKAclVqQFbSYSeAQcGoN86JtiQNsz0cEueL BW0sM+TlP+YmtR742hOLIrL1JYUENJN/2lPpiZMCOmRjOB8U40N7JZdsT50vc2XB3jsR IpXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7E2ggVsfcLnZvT29jMOBvh+R8YM1nf+biMnM0BY9nb70dTvjM9F 5o3fvdYxuJrKmtbi73GVwTpBAVkg75APDHn8ti4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49Hg5bZzlbIVdeByktcnj3taSczaif/TcMu2X7WlqTUMpNHbgOempM/LhsMPHPiGbUlc4H2wiwmAAmKA2c4HB8= X-Received: by 10.80.232.130 with SMTP id f2mr854996edn.156.1522187369814; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:49:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.93 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:48:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:48:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f4f5e80e7c18759f7005686bddb6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:49:34 -0000 --f4f5e80e7c18759f7005686bddb6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" support On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > There was solid support in the room in London to adopt. Please > read/respond to this thread with/without your support to > adopt draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa as a BIER WG item. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa/ > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --f4f5e80e7c18759f7005686bddb6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
support

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@g= mail.com> wrote:
There was solid support in the room in London to adopt. Please rea= d/respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt=C2=A0draft-zzha= ng-bier-bar-ipa as a BIER WG item.


_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--f4f5e80e7c18759f7005686bddb6-- From nobody Tue Mar 27 14:50:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E331F124319 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:50:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tbqKgNh2dBmP for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9B89124234 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id p9so1358537wmc.3 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:50:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ySSlCXc1fOUzIhqpwBs4NmBVdrOhxpllFRdXmLH4W6o=; b=DrhJm43ikHbPWL913EnP3mTzCSg+QPdEZaMUhqIXv25s3atATNuEMV1QA/epnF8Sns 4O1twq7+YFNM7QvMe5LdAi+DyjG95u8oepyzs37tsVQiBVblQp1aePpSoNboxkdzAxME zt4mxzxUOKVcr3qEwucYj58Hv6ALYXJJ0DvYlATtsaXEoFm1Uwp3yKosV44pF5Fm0Hi6 CmIBRU8SaCQhugRLyiflVMgZpsfcbpoUlkiJ5vqVBEjcKoqeK4I7x3K9NFdOz99A0wz2 ZQ3a6b/7zcKua/7+RKC6w8fQkXUy1aTX61qWe9Ub1/42CRABIsjosO30EEWcO7S2auum Yxvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ySSlCXc1fOUzIhqpwBs4NmBVdrOhxpllFRdXmLH4W6o=; b=EGH1t3w+hTHg4Mb1zL3jT84IHZADGAJDKXcxi0+87y4HXGljIyQvPDdTF0eDxQgn/c CqVNITWur/kOOyrkKk79lZ86vU/yZ6xCz/GynhzLIsoykz0UeS0Ve5cMfXl72vgf9zev zePaOxKFz5LiijAdEptDD174x/Larvbec2+ov0WvoZ+KVbMngFa3ov6UCbO+d2SVE/NY vmrYhULr/oCt74iOOpP4FTtH6OnFVUwN7VGZlaRv3B36aNzV7qU/asa9zJHKgBOFtC06 JIrkImgpdLhHyE6eg2M3ce1ZZLaE6513uqdexIdF25yZovmUQhm8smzYPPix/Y90CviG bk6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EFUYKjNtsGTyvhP5w+7pr7bDeEiilJjSr/exZN3OrsWuQ9yjmM FRz2PdPmpupQzlHfEtq0rwxFDymOivEOFsOTK1Fmyw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+BvsLvPvWZlC3sHcBhefWQ1Q/V1scB5N8hXHr3ph83LJoi8uEsl6rm9aY76IRaOiXqP4YJb0D2UCg0TvuZpBo= X-Received: by 10.80.214.26 with SMTP id x26mr816486edi.195.1522187401590; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:50:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.93 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:49:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:49:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1afde65a7c0205686bdf67" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:50:06 -0000 --94eb2c1afde65a7c0205686bdf67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" support On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Greg Shepherd wrote: > We had solid support in London to adopt draft-zzhang-algorithms as a WG > item. Please respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-algorithm/ > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --94eb2c1afde65a7c0205686bdf67 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
support

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@g= mail.com> wrote:
We had solid support in London to adopt =C2=A0draft-zzhang-algorit= hms as a WG item. Please respond to this thread with/without your support t= o adopt:


= Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)

_______________________________________________
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BIER@ietf.org
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(10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 03:35:24 +0100 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 10:35:11 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: "gjshep@gmail.com" , BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa Thread-Index: AQHTxg9cbYeL5oKbOEan9r1aqXBD0qPk7PLg Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 02:35:10 +0000 Message-ID: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A20658@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.217.214] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A20658nkgeml514mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org 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3b6XCCMTjqmCBs7gExgwIgpA2xUYNMokkrU69auQhCYnfgJckvom3f2tOSj+8WNWWf5UveCeHV7rS8B4g897O3OEB+xb8qfrYB0DaXp9uG86A1kfCR9eyyZc+QMGGLTNs/SQfv++4Vo+dzKQ3Hj+lCsKfI5n2PrEL/8d5s/7JhIAdI8RlPc6kBO4snEwSkAGaEKvJhzvnJbTdUkIb2cTNwQOrH+FTULMfFLdMskQ8+UdNBm9sJK+ImR8+0E5+WqckkzYdHHznFgNE51G/idWMbzjTgPFf3aYhlVtmjDa9eldCdpPiUydZhhEC2G4l8oBbHoUywXTofHQnZ7WHzHic/LrloGFAVGB5RlbF7z2NMNM9mHlh9Frn75CN/QJ2/4G spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0701MB26200057AEE0E823AF1879B798A30HE1PR0701MB2620_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 54f89f2c-ea1d-4a55-fa71-08d59469d98d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Mar 2018 05:07:48.3999 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2091 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] FW: Questions regarding bier notification in bier.yang X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 05:07:54 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0701MB26200057AEE0E823AF1879B798A30HE1PR0701MB2620_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, While referring bier yang model, I could find that bier notification has su= b-domain-id-collision. I could not find a scenario when or how to raise thi= s notification. Can someone please elaborate? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-03 notification sub-domain-id-collision{ leaf sub-domain-id{ type sub-domain-id; description "BIER sub domain ID"; } leaf mt-id{ type uint16; description "Multi-topology ID"; } description "Sub domain ID received in the controlplane that caused Su= b domain ID collision"; } } I also have couple of recommendation 1. shouldn't we also add BitStringLength Compatibility check notificatio= n when received BSL is different than provisioned BSL, as mentioned in sect= ion 6.10.1 2. Should we divide the BFR collision in two parts, * when BFR ID is matches with self BFR ID * when it's found that advertised BFR IDs of two routers are same. Thanks, Tanmoy --_000_HE1PR0701MB26200057AEE0E823AF1879B798A30HE1PR0701MB2620_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

While referring bier yang model, I could find that b= ier notification has sub-domain-id-collision. I could not find a scenario w= hen or how to raise this notification. Can someone please elaborate?

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-03

 

notification sub-= domain-id-collision{

   = ;             l= eaf sub-domain-id{

   = ;            &n= bsp;  type sub-domain-id;

   = ;            &n= bsp;  description

   = ;             &= nbsp;       "BIER sub domain ID&quo= t;;

   = ;     }

   = ;             l= eaf mt-id{

   = ;            &n= bsp;  type uint16;

   = ;            &n= bsp;  description

   = ;            &n= bsp;        "Multi-topology ID"= ;;

   = ;     }

   = ;        description

   = ;            &n= bsp; "Sub domain ID received in the controlplane that caused Sub domai= n ID collision";

   = ;    }

   = ;  }

 

 

I also have couple of recommendation

  1. shouldn’t w= e also add BitStringLength Compatibility check notification when received B= SL is different than provisioned BSL, as mentioned in section 6.10.1
  2. Sho= uld we divide the BFR collision in two parts,
    1. when BFR ID is ma= tches with self BFR ID
    2. when it’s found that advertised BFR IDs of two r= outers are same.   

 

Thanks,

Tanmoy

 

--_000_HE1PR0701MB26200057AEE0E823AF1879B798A30HE1PR0701MB2620_-- From nobody Tue Mar 27 23:56:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066BC1200A0 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:56:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: DNS error: SERVFAIL)" header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PdLlNAvfvfYG for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 036F81200E5 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:55:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1987; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1522220159; x=1523429759; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=47oJDMOxyvJHJtv56vjatKffhyNKPEmpu/5oaQFtriA=; b=clFKiUHkC4PEYU6QOzro4nZbhfThbt4aKlSWgQHHqCn3Fs+EyjC+mKYq QyCZBl3UYwMjuy/QAZNUZU1TNPq0YwR2yPwo2ilI3TiGNrpYq9hh6hv7a ioESPWDLbw2KCG0Q/i0nC1o9H62c1sGBvVZsl8LjshWMAeIxZ8ZkfD6dE M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CeAQDxO7ta/xbLJq1bGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYQibyiDXIhejHYBAQEBAQEGgSOBD4ZdjAGBZgsYC4RhAoQ?= =?us-ascii?q?mOBQBAgEBAQEBAQJrKIUlAQEBAQIBAQEbBksLBQsLGAICJgICIQYwGRuEWwM?= =?us-ascii?q?IBQgPqyCCHIRVgjwNgSyCJAWBCIdcgQeBCwEigWZ8gk9CAQEDAYEgFSNMgjQ?= =?us-ascii?q?wgiQClwcsCIVRgkqDEoJ7gS+DVocsiRE7g1uCKQIECwITAYElMyGBUk0jFTo?= =?us-ascii?q?qAYIYPpARPTCQHAEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.48,370,1517875200"; d="scan'208";a="2868372" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 28 Mar 2018 06:55:55 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8818.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8818.cisco.com [10.60.202.89]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w2S6tt6X012872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:55:55 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 08:55:54 +0200 Cc: BIER WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3FA67B26-EDD8-4E51-866E-8AFADF18FDDD@cisco.com> References: To: gjshep@gmail.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:56:02 -0000 Dear WG, I believe this draft is not ready for WG adoption. 4.1 Handling BIER incapable routers is something that can also be solved = by depending on a unicast underlay that provides this support (ie Flex = Algo). So its not at all clear that a BAR value of 1 is the best way to = go forward. Its likely we=E2=80=99ll end up with two different ways to = solve this problem in IETF. 4.1 The example of bypassing BIER incapable routers is weak, I think = tunnelling through a non-BIER capable router is a much more realistic = deployment scenario. 4.2 Computing a Maximum Disjoint Tree is also something that can be done = through Flex-Algo. In many networks, a MDT is also required for unicast, = so BIER and unicast can share the same underlay. Much more details need = to be added to this section in order to do a comparison with FA and = determine which is the better way to go forward. 4.3 This section requires much more details and its unclear (to me) this = is a problem we need to solve. 4.4 This section also needs much more details. BIER-TE has scale = limitation due to the number of BP=E2=80=99s, but solving it through = BIER and BAR may not scale either. It all depends on how many = sub-topologies are needed. With BIER the limitation is the number of = Sub-Domains. So I agree with xiejingrong, its not clear this draft is a use-case = document or an actual solutions draft. It certainly missed a lot of = details to be the latter. Thx, Ice. =20 > On 27 Mar 2018, at 23:03, Greg Shepherd wrote: >=20 > We had solid support in London to adopt draft-zzhang-algorithms as a = WG item. Please respond to this thread with/without your support to = adopt: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-algorithm/ >=20 > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Mar 27 23:57:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD59120727 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:57:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: DNS error: SERVFAIL)" header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wm4i3BdlpDxS for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8FB11200A0 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 23:57:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=536; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1522220263; x=1523429863; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vtSaS1wHhmPIyXX7WkfpKxtPzJNdQTldihyM7emcklM=; b=Kbw8EchhT0QD1CXnCxIVm7CyblsyJX1fgwcr2YAxGiUbOh8l9WtJR1tM IDyEQ8j6LCMdzVWt3GHxRT02NLOThvWpIBREYMsbHwBqowu4CZBSIsKQu TWmPGT9Z9w4LWqNl9qvPD/G+KILeAfdCTfhz971tcdTTFrFbQIGfLlRJF k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CcAQCmPLta/xbLJq1dGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYQibyiMOox1AQEBAQEBBoEjgQ+GXY1nCxgLhGEChCY4FAE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQEBAQEBAmsohSUBAQEBAgEBARsdNAsFCwsYLiEGMBmEdgMIBQgPrXuEVYI?= =?us-ascii?q?8DYEsgiQFiGSBB4EMIoJigk9CAQEDAYE1I0yCZIIkApcHLAiFUYVcgnuBIQ6?= =?us-ascii?q?DVoJZhFOJETuDW4IpAgQLAhMBgSUzIYFSTSMVOioBghg+kBE9MJAcAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.48,370,1517875200"; d="scan'208";a="2820967" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 28 Mar 2018 06:57:40 +0000 Received: from ams-iwijnand-8818.cisco.com (ams-iwijnand-8818.cisco.com [10.60.202.89]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w2S6tt6Z012872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:57:40 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: IJsbrand Wijnands In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 08:57:39 +0200 Cc: BIER WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <41E8075C-18F5-408D-AEB5-2527F9BDB349@cisco.com> References: To: gjshep@gmail.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 06:57:47 -0000 Support (co-author). Thx, Ice. > On 27 Mar 2018, at 23:05, Greg Shepherd wrote: >=20 > There was solid support in the room in London to adopt. Please = read/respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt = draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa as a BIER WG item. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa/ >=20 > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Mar 28 05:11:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFD2126E64 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 05:11:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564CE126FB3 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 05:19:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yzqK3KCI1TSS for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 05:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DDCB1242F7 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 05:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 9F0E0A201CC01 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 13:19:34 +0100 (IST) Received: from BLREML703-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.20.4.172) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 13:19:35 +0100 Received: from BLREML503-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.12.113]) by blreml703-cah.china.huawei.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:49:28 +0530 From: Senthil Dhanaraj To: "gjshep@gmail.com" , BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms Thread-Index: AQHTxg8rUX5pJ6zF1Uyt6kzOGZE7f6Plj7wQ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 12:19:28 +0000 Message-ID: <9778B23E32FB2745BEA3BE037F185DC4A5BC31B6@BLREML503-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.18.148.65] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9778B23E32FB2745BEA3BE037F185DC4A5BC31B6BLREML503MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: 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Message-ID: To: gjshep@gmail.com Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fbf47f0568785442" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 12:41:57 -0000 --000000000000fbf47f0568785442 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Without Support I think we should have some details about BAR algorithms in place before adopting it. Thanks Arish On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 2:34 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > We had solid support in London to adopt draft-zzhang-algorithms as a WG > item. Please respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-algorithm/ > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --000000000000fbf47f0568785442 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Withou= t Support=C2=A0

I think we should have some det= ails about BAR algorithms in place before adopting it.=C2=A0


Thanks=C2=A0
=C2=A0Arish=C2=A0

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 2:34 AM Greg She= pherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrot= e:
We had solid su= pport in London to adopt =C2=A0draft-zzhang-algorithms as a WG item. Please= respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt:

<= div>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-zzhang-bier-algorithm/

Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)
_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@= ietf.org
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h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XAnGIPyhLuY+2S4A3kAsVam4GuIHeQtxHAFL9wEx3SA=; b=KqZyhFFF9VLftDiC/nQGlzdDPiPJMmPaDnuyFi55M2EHxf24SngzrB3RtKu64oU6KG piBkj+t6aOSlf+omQ12Zg0PGHDPz9/QWuvwf4VYNkmKk96w3TmLh+new0JHv8Jxfohbv m8K2G6FN/SlSnCasXUrX9nEHSTiV3h42LlMZpu89NsHaRE/hGtB4PoXmuuMXPP4b3mZI +oDck9/9Q6Wh1HhJf9MfDByKDeJPCuuKZtPqeaUs0b0hWvZ3/PnJD5VGrV/PgBjTgxBl v1habYHy/6v41QjeEru4MzfTqDtNAuQJlVV72g1Ftp6SwcBCbpAHXvMe6XczyDkXD2Pv JYpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EUseKDaveYFIDdHmZlC238nl/muS4+txK58iB7nqC7JP6YwClN EP1fgS1JEy/lwrTkN4BfMGbLnmBXOIy1So++ND8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49irRMvvd1j2RNx8jGGVAr0RZ91DWBFbzW1ssLmG/V/iacxyRYmFJdHb+UNpDe2QYXLOF506g/q6wjcwGbICVU= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c3cb:: with SMTP id t194-v6mr2733822lff.60.1522248173336; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 07:42:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 07:42:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:42:52 +0300 Message-ID: To: syed arish Cc: Greg Shepherd , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1bd2a05687a0535" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 14:42:58 -0000 --000000000000a1bd2a05687a0535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, decision whether to support WG adoption of a draft can be drawn by answering three questions: - does the draft addresses practical problem that the WG is interested/should work on - is the proposed solution technically viable - is the draft reasonably well-written, i.e. can be read and understood Here are my view of the draft called for the WG adoption: - draft proposes creation of IANA registry - right step; draft proposes directions to handle BAR-wise heterogeneous BIER environment - timely proposal; - proposed solutions are technically viable - I was able to read and, hopefully, understand the draft. Hence, I support the adoption Regards, Greg On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 3:41 PM, syed arish wrote: > Without Support > > > I think we should have some details about BAR algorithms in place before > adopting it. > > > Thanks > Arish > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 2:34 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > >> We had solid support in London to adopt draft-zzhang-algorithms as a WG >> item. Please respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-algorithm/ >> >> Thanks, >> Greg >> (Chairs) >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --000000000000a1bd2a05687a0535 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
decision whether to support WG adoption of a draft= can be drawn by answering three questions:
  • does the draf= t addresses practical problem that the WG is interested/should work on
    • =
  • is the proposed solution technically viable
  • is the draft reason= ably well-written, i.e. can be read and understood
Here are m= y view of the draft called for the WG adoption:
  • dra= ft proposes creation of IANA registry - right step; draft proposes directio= ns to handle BAR-wise heterogeneous BIER environment - timely proposal;
  • proposed solutions are technically viable
  • I was able to read a= nd, hopefully, understand the draft.
Hence, I support the ado= ption

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018= at 3:41 PM, syed arish <arishahsan@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Without Support=C2=A0


= I think we should have some details about BAR algorithms in place before ad= opting it.=C2=A0


Tha= nks=C2=A0
=C2=A0Arish=C2=A0
=

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 2:34 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
We had solid support in London to adopt =C2=A0draft-zzhang-algorithms as= a WG item. Please respond to this thread with/without your support to adop= t:

Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)
_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier=

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


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(mankamis)" To: "gjshep@gmail.com" CC: BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa Thread-Index: AQHTxg9hjIMf4NfnBEyZGDK3T5J6gqPlw0cd Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:16:09 +0000 Message-ID: <52EC365B-1A68-4D0F-99BF-D79728C64ED9@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_52EC365B1A684D0F99BFD79728C64ED9ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:16:14 -0000 --_000_52EC365B1A684D0F99BFD79728C64ED9ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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w2SGUQq3019832 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:30:26 GMT Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 11:30:25 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 11:30:25 -0500 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "gjshep@gmail.com" , BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms Thread-Index: AQHTxg8r+LTihL+jWkCdcZ02GKcAEqPl1moQ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:30:25 +0000 Message-ID: <72697141210f42dc801099eee969217d@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.13.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa Thread-Index: AQHTxg9h4C3gkTFNfkmvq1cpttIx1KPl2BQA Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:33:20 +0000 Message-ID: <03f0d1dc757344e2918a713c1bda77d3@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.13.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_03f0d1dc757344e2918a713c1bda77d3XCHALN001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:33:27 -0000 --_000_03f0d1dc757344e2918a713c1bda77d3XCHALN001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quick observation only On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 11:55 PM, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote: > Dear WG, > > I believe this draft is not ready for WG adoption. > > 4.1 Handling BIER incapable routers is something that can also be solved > by depending on a unicast underlay that provides this support (ie Flex > Algo). So its not at all clear that a BAR value of 1 is the best way to g= o > forward. Its likely we=E2=80=99ll end up with two different ways to solve= this > problem in IETF. > > 4.1 The example of bypassing BIER incapable routers is weak, I think > tunnelling through a non-BIER capable router is a much more realistic > deployment scenario. > Ice, it's probably a grave misunderstanding here if the draft has been read as "BAR=3D1" is _the_ solution for non-congruent topologies or even _the be= st solution_. That was never intended to be the intention or claim. It is suggested as just one of possibilities with its own set of advantages/disadvantages/preconditions just as a pure MT solution is e.g. (which does not need any extensions or additional technologies at all and is already "baked into BIER") ... In fact multiple solutions to solve brown-field/non-congruent topologies are needed from having had extensive discussions about BIER deployment scenarios with interested parties. It all depends on a wide set of preconditions customers have or are willing to deploy in their networks and what they consider a viable operational solution under their set of constraints/preferences/timelines. So I don't think talking about a best solution for everyone and every scenario is even meaningful. 4.2 Computing a Maximum Disjoint Tree is also something that can be done > through Flex-Algo. In many networks, a MDT is also required for unicast, = so > BIER and unicast can share the same underlay. Much more details need to b= e > added to this section in order to do a comparison with FA and determine > which is the better way to go forward. > Correct, again, this draft never intended to claim that it is the only or best solution and as you say multiple are needed. I would agree that multiple solutions for Live-Live should be described (I see at least three each with their own set of trade-offs ;-) and compared and the customers will decide what their operational preferences are ... So, I hope in both cases we'll have multiple solutions described and some kind of framework for customers to understand what kind of advantages they get with each one while understanding the preconditions to deploy it successfully. I leave the BIER-TE, controller use cases and so on out this discussion ... --- tony --f403045c1946ca898305687b9c94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quick observation only

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 11:55 PM, IJsbr= and Wijnands <ice@cisco.com> wrote:
Dear WG,

I believe this draft is not ready for WG adoption.

4.1 Handling BIER incapable routers is something that can also be solved by= depending on a unicast underlay that provides this support (ie Flex Algo).= So its not at all clear that a BAR value of 1 is the best way to go forwar= d. Its likely we=E2=80=99ll end up with two different ways to solve this pr= oblem in IETF.

4.1 The example of bypassing BIER incapable routers is weak, I think tunnel= ling through a non-BIER capable router is a much more realistic deployment = scenario.

Ice, it's probably a grav= e misunderstanding here if the draft has been read as "BAR=3D1" i= s _the_ solution for non-congruent topologies or even _the best solution_. = That was never intended to be the intention or claim. It is suggested as ju= st one of possibilities with its own set of advantages/disadvantages/precon= ditions=C2=A0 just as a pure MT solution is e.g. (which does not need any e= xtensions or additional technologies at all and is already "baked into= BIER") ...

In fact multiple solutions to solve bro= wn-field/non-congruent topologies are needed from having had extensive disc= ussions about BIER deployment scenarios with interested parties. It all dep= ends on a wide set of preconditions customers have or are willing to deploy= in their networks and what they consider a viable operational solution und= er their set of constraints/preferences/timelines. So I don't think tal= king about a best solution for everyone and every scenario is even meaningf= ul.
=C2=A0

4.2 Computing a Maximum Disjoint Tree is also something that can be done th= rough Flex-Algo. In many networks, a MDT is also required for unicast, so B= IER and unicast can share the same underlay. Much more details need to be a= dded to this section in order to do a comparison with FA and determine whic= h is the better way to go forward.

Corr= ect, again, this draft never intended to claim that it is the only or best = solution and as you say multiple are needed. I would agree that multiple so= lutions for Live-Live should be described (I see at least three each with t= heir own set of trade-offs ;-) and compared and the customers will decide w= hat their operational preferences are ...

So, I hope in = both cases we'll have multiple solutions described and some kind of fra= mework for customers to understand what kind of advantages they get with ea= ch one while understanding the preconditions to deploy it successfully.
I leave the BIER-TE, controller use cases and so on out thi= s discussion ...

--- tony
=C2= =A0
--f403045c1946ca898305687b9c94-- From nobody Wed Mar 28 09:41:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5FF127599 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:41:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rpQcqpaZbHxj for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78DAC124235 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 142-v6so4555466itl.5 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:41:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=4krgGL2wYe9Xli0kdik4dkA6IxwEmweVVLtwii/HAmI=; b=M62emj1UaMi09zDdHnHuNruzmzKCcpiXbEd13LWu+KkYCYGGnMZJzZoKevmrNlKqLI c61SnsUm0M2tQ/Hs6oZS3FYebzS+Ux2K+fJ+mtuXujyR+pojq2up4jZSb22PcHSNK3Fy j3Rf0bGdfrlQd/QEyDcNQ2UjpGipm4iWpfdjtso6+wonpra7zAw35kXPVatVt6Y8JRVO ZjZdKzclcePvM1VM14VXe6cr2kvmtVmjUefKYpi1aXZnj+ZY6rrz/d5QZzbWsQqf2InM 4qRcCsjNmWm679fI/jHMoH5hDbsp/+FHSEUibK40nq+P+9/W9PIZ2XGNU1FjDmVmY5Z4 O0Rg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4krgGL2wYe9Xli0kdik4dkA6IxwEmweVVLtwii/HAmI=; b=Ya4E8bzgTNeImyXX0qg0D4Q4llZTIOsiT4w4s9uh65lXQS2pqgxvXPtB3TWt/FWSgQ 2DJ+sP6rrr8Z9raHDVsSJ2fcKOn2FC0HsG27baLPFSiBieF6Mwl+VxmDJ9db9w/IBE1G vmbAZ6ePA9TA/2rqiZMHTJr7xwv5STpYSUgVqONPnxx4GRod0wzl86cezK7RQ/H8ojS4 XHO2oq4YSKQPMTb5gdKOLcT45EyfB6bVLDgc6RFnorlF1PjogkHgzZ/VbVLztcfhHgZJ drqsmr0yhuIz0s9Gmg9ghHfDaK3scQ776tkteFYxl00sK4NNrzwJ0of/Az1cdLLIU/WG VDFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FmtIsSkhX55Q0fv/7EFQwBMJRWIwlYHKEoGZjc7M1AutyhaBZB i+J7nJXRFwPYwVFoB312HBUDUiLXWQ4Z0Pz8rqU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+ng11SsIr5mFGz6TFAn+ObThAPnBoP9loPL3DdEAsYnpz7eWGczBPvQMQomLmmuNj3CtEMKlFXxuljpRlFkPs= X-Received: by 2002:a24:d42:: with SMTP id 63-v6mr4050979itx.62.1522255293849; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:41:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.98.79 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <72697141210f42dc801099eee969217d@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <72697141210f42dc801099eee969217d@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> From: Greg Shepherd Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:41:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c276205687bae5f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:41:37 -0000 --0000000000000c276205687bae5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Oppose. > > > I am quite surprised that an adoption call is being requested at this time. > Why? The room showed support, so we take it to the list. It's this process that triggers these discussions. If the call hadn't been made, this thread allowing everyone to voice their concerns in one place wouldn't exist. :-) Greg > The document as it exists is a placeholder for things which will be > discussed in (to quote the draft) =E2=80=9Cfuture versions=E2=80=9D. > > So the substance of the draft is still TBD. Why then would we consider > this ready for WG adoption? > > > > I would agree that the draft mentions problems of interest to the WG =E2= =80=93 but > this is just the beginning. Please continue to work on/discuss the proble= ms > mentioned in the draft. I would expect at some future time there would be > enough substance/consensus for the WG to consider that the solutions > defined in some future revision are on the right track and deserve WG > status =E2=80=93 but this is much too early to consider WG adoption. > > > > Les > > > > > > *From:* BIER *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 27, 2018 2:04 PM > *To:* BIER WG > *Subject:* [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms > > > > We had solid support in London to adopt draft-zzhang-algorithms as a WG > item. Please respond to this thread with/without your support to adopt: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bier-algorithm/ > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > --0000000000000c276205687bae5f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@ci= sco.com> wrote:

Oppose.

=C2=A0=C2=A0

<= /div>

I am quite surprised that an adopti= on call is being requested at this time.


Why? The room showed support, so we take it to the lis= t. It's this process that triggers these discussions. If the call hadn&= #39;t been made, this thread allowing everyone to voice their concerns in o= ne place wouldn't exist. :-)

Greg
= =C2=A0

The document as it exists is a placeh= older for things which will be discussed in (to quote the draft) =E2=80=9Cf= uture versions=E2=80=9D.

So the substance of the draft is stil= l TBD. Why then would we consider this ready for WG adoption?=

=C2=A0

I would agree that the draft mentions= problems of interest to the WG =E2=80=93 but this is just the beginning. P= lease continue to work on/discuss the problems mentioned in the draft. I would expect at some future time there would be enough sub= stance/consensus for the WG to consider that the solutions defined in some = future revision are on the right track and deserve WG status =E2=80=93 but = this is much too early to consider WG adoption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 2:04 PM
To: BIER WG <b= ier@ietf.org>
Subject: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms=

=C2=A0

We had solid support in London to adopt =C2=A0draft-= zzhang-algorithms as a WG item. Please respond to this thread with/without = your support to adopt:


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(ginsberg)" To: "gjshep@gmail.com" CC: BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms Thread-Index: AQHTxg8r+LTihL+jWkCdcZ02GKcAEqPl1moQgABYi4D//697wA== Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:55:13 +0000 Message-ID: <81050ae2067547fd9447657962301d34@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <72697141210f42dc801099eee969217d@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.13.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_81050ae2067547fd9447657962301d34XCHALN001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-zzhang-algorithms X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:55:18 -0000 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GnoVXmeOaP6o for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x233.google.com (mail-lf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE7D9127775 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id o102-v6so5634404lfg.8 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=54Ub0XukwlICIX2wcP/cbotHaPzDfz2SQTdgm7TyYqM=; 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AElRT7GF8pzUK8bWS2xmn1wO46u4OLBA8CYBn2wF7Dsp8Kk4x1D1lWPg do1OsOllTrNJDuA4tQMbhDAg5Jq5NY3CkJ296TkrMQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48LmAPeLE9j1DVAPhmzVeMl+mOyxtACGqLGe3E5DaYDFkkfr8S6WukvrDui0Qm00WrF5nQQ9gn07LnLNQ65QPs= X-Received: by 10.46.88.88 with SMTP id x24mr3547007ljd.144.1522275269996; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:c9c2:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stig Venaas Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:14:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Tony Przygienda , BIER WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:14:34 -0000 Hi I can certainly work on the wording. Perhaps the more important discussion, which you also brought up, is whether it is worth doing a pessimistic MTU in the sense that it is sub-domain wide, rather than a path MTU that can be more optimal. One problem with path MTU and multicast, is that it changes as the receiver set changes. For a particular (S,G) an ingress router needs to consider the path MTU towards each of the egress routers. This means that you need to discover the path MTU at least each time a new receiver is added (a new BIER bit is set) for the (S,G). Also, at any time there can be a routing change lowering the MTU, and packets would get dropped until the new path MTU is discovered. A sub-domain MTU is more pessimistic, but I think it is more robust than probing. There is less risk of packet drops (from when actual path MTU is reduced and until it is discovered by a probe), and there is no need of rediscovering path MTU each time a new receiver is added. It is also easier to implement. I'm also wondering how probing is supposed to work with ECMP. Would the ingress router need to do a new probe each time it encapsulates packets with a new entropy? Stig On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear Authors, et. al, > I understand the idea of aggregating MTU in the given BIER sub-domain but > I'm concerned that if there are interfaces with significantly different > MTUs, that the proposed approach may result in lower MTU being enforced on > paths capable of larger MTU. The BIER PMTUD draft does provide per path > information. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: >> >> Comments: >> >> a) " >> Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least >> one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above definition >> of a BIER interface, determines the largest payload that can be sent >> BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER interfaces in the sub- >> domain. >> " >> >> The language here is unclear. Is that the MIN(all used subdomain interface >> MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense. >> >> b) May merit a section saying that albeit this is much lighter-weight than >> I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely pessimistic >> since it always picks up the smallest link in the whole subdomain >> >> c) "MTU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu, link >> mtu, interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the precise way >> is to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ... >> >> --- tony >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > From nobody Wed Mar 28 15:23:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1BE3127775 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:23:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:23:51 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:23:51 -0400 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Stig Venaas , Greg Mirsky CC: BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud Thread-Index: AQHTv57cJRYq4wLWLEyVLSuKGLTVd6PYFJCAgA5ziID//7+PgA== Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:23:51 +0000 Message-ID: <88469679-7329-440A-B837-26AAD8AC3C7D@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.200] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1452F99A11751C4AB1BDBCB18098C76A@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Zm8vYmllcg0KICAgID4+DQogICAgPg0KICAgID4NCiAgICA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgPiBCSUVSIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAg ID4gQklFUkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9iaWVyDQogICAgPg0KICAgIA0KICAgIF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgQklFUiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCiAgICBCSUVSQGlldGYu b3JnDQogICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iaWVyDQogICAg DQoNCg== From nobody Wed Mar 28 18:42:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CD612895E for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:42:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bWHAGuyPZtfi for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AA131241F5 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 357BC63D44242 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 02:41:57 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 02:41:58 +0100 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:41:45 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: Stig Venaas CC: BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud Thread-Index: AQHTv57lSz9mA5wzcUO8njhd91E/r6PXS2WAgA5ziICAALzJ0A== Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 01:41:44 +0000 Message-ID: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A20ABA@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.217.214] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 01:42:03 -0000 Hi Stig, What I am worried about is that, when a new router is add to the network, a= nd unfortunately some of its link has a minimal MTU, then all the running s= essions would have to change. Also for the condition when some link with min MTU being brought up. Though Yes, when the network is stable enough, then "there is no need of re= discovering path MTU each time a new receiver is added" is a benefit to me = as well. So I think the most pessimistic MTU, is still a configured one, or a compul= sive one like what IPv6(RFC8200) defined --value 1280. Thanks, Jingrong -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stig Venaas Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 6:14 AM To: Greg Mirsky Cc: BIER WG Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud Hi I can certainly work on the wording. Perhaps the more important discussion,= which you also brought up, is whether it is worth doing a pessimistic MTU = in the sense that it is sub-domain wide, rather than a path MTU that can be= more optimal. One problem with path MTU and multicast, is that it changes = as the receiver set changes. For a particular (S,G) an ingress router needs= to consider the path MTU towards each of the egress routers. This means th= at you need to discover the path MTU at least each time a new receiver is a= dded (a new BIER bit is set) for the (S,G). Also, at any time there can be = a routing change lowering the MTU, and packets would get dropped until the = new path MTU is discovered. A sub-domain MTU is more pessimistic, but I think it is more robust than pr= obing. There is less risk of packet drops (from when actual path MTU is red= uced and until it is discovered by a probe), and there is no need of redisc= overing path MTU each time a new receiver is added. It is also easier to im= plement. I'm also wondering how probing is supposed to work with ECMP. Would the ing= ress router need to do a new probe each time it encapsulates packets with a= new entropy? Stig On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote= : > Dear Authors, et. al, > I understand the idea of aggregating MTU in the given BIER sub-domain=20 > but I'm concerned that if there are interfaces with significantly=20 > different MTUs, that the proposed approach may result in lower MTU=20 > being enforced on paths capable of larger MTU. The BIER PMTUD draft=20 > does provide per path information. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Tony Przygienda > wrote: >> >> Comments: >> >> a) " >> Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least >> one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above definition >> of a BIER interface, determines the largest payload that can be sent >> BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER interfaces in the sub- >> domain. >> " >> >> The language here is unclear. Is that the MIN(all used subdomain=20 >> interface >> MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense. >> >> b) May merit a section saying that albeit this is much lighter-weight=20 >> than I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely=20 >> pessimistic since it always picks up the smallest link in the whole=20 >> subdomain >> >> c) "MTU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu,=20 >> link mtu, interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the=20 >> precise way is to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ... >> >> --- tony >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Mar 28 19:02:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8402A129502 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 19:02:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LftLao88iCrp for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 19:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D786C128C0A for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 19:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse01.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.3.20]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 8D33334989E1CD973465; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:02:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp05.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.204]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with SMTP id w2T22990090585; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:02:09 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp02[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid203; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:02:09 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:02:09 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afa5abc4921fffffffffb9-18aa6 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <201803291002098969133@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: CA+wi2hOvFXdvTPXcaqB4_UJAD89Psk6kV14VtnGW5Vt84PPwxg@mail.gmail.com, CAHANBtJVot20bjD79YwGOPx5OTAieeXU2TgTP7mB3t4-cHzacw@mail.gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn w2T22990090585 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?draft-venaas-bier-mtud?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 02:02:23 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ltt9-IKVdeZM for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AA1112D777 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id z143-v6so6623294lff.3 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:16:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VRfIPMhMTWKL93yV+cY2Hgo/oSbgBeNQZmoIe+zog7c=; b=s9zixokDFyZZSl5WiWmxSjNzWFwc4bxA1PIqEbJBflVcI6olVXiKmN2Lu8q7tJooAt 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49jeZvTtbyVgomB/vuG2xUEY6tvZ6PRpnMA6nBcnvDbeEp63fDMu9T/B29UCeoubQ0PXdG+1IsSj2GhzhljZ8E= X-Received: by 10.46.145.4 with SMTP id m4mr4141290ljg.73.1522300578551; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:16:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:16:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 08:16:17 +0300 Message-ID: To: Stig Venaas Cc: Tony Przygienda , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f4f5e80cb45039dd3d05688639ec" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 05:16:23 -0000 --f4f5e80cb45039dd3d05688639ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Stig, thank you for your kind consideration of my comments. I think that sub-domain MTUD and PMTUD methods are complementary (I'd characterize sub-domain method as "conservative" rather than "pessimistic" :) ). Couple notes on use cases you've mentioned: - yes, when a new receiver added, PMTUD to it may be performed; - in the ECMP environment PMTUD will use the same Entropy field value as the flow for which the MTU to be discovered. Regards, Greg On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:14 AM, Stig Venaas wrote: > Hi > > I can certainly work on the wording. Perhaps the more important > discussion, which you also brought up, is whether it is worth doing a > pessimistic MTU in the sense that it is sub-domain wide, rather than a > path MTU that can be more optimal. One problem with path MTU and > multicast, is that it changes as the receiver set changes. For a > particular (S,G) an ingress router needs to consider the path MTU > towards each of the egress routers. This means that you need to > discover the path MTU at least each time a new receiver is added (a > new BIER bit is set) for the (S,G). Also, at any time there can be a > routing change lowering the MTU, and packets would get dropped until > the new path MTU is discovered. > > A sub-domain MTU is more pessimistic, but I think it is more robust > than probing. There is less risk of packet drops (from when actual > path MTU is reduced and until it is discovered by a probe), and there > is no need of rediscovering path MTU each time a new receiver is > added. It is also easier to implement. > > I'm also wondering how probing is supposed to work with ECMP. Would > the ingress router need to do a new probe each time it encapsulates > packets with a new entropy? > > Stig > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Dear Authors, et. al, > > I understand the idea of aggregating MTU in the given BIER sub-domain but > > I'm concerned that if there are interfaces with significantly different > > MTUs, that the proposed approach may result in lower MTU being enforced > on > > paths capable of larger MTU. The BIER PMTUD draft does provide per path > > information. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Tony Przygienda > > wrote: > >> > >> Comments: > >> > >> a) " > >> Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least > >> one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above definition > >> of a BIER interface, determines the largest payload that can be sent > >> BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER interfaces in the sub- > >> domain. > >> " > >> > >> The language here is unclear. Is that the MIN(all used subdomain > interface > >> MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense. > >> > >> b) May merit a section saying that albeit this is much lighter-weight > than > >> I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely pessimistic > >> since it always picks up the smallest link in the whole subdomain > >> > >> c) "MTU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu, link > >> mtu, interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the > precise way > >> is to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ... > >> > >> --- tony > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BIER mailing list > >> BIER@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > --f4f5e80cb45039dd3d05688639ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stig,
thank you for your kind consideration of my c= omments. I think that sub-domain MTUD and PMTUD methods are complementary (= I'd characterize sub-domain method as "conservative" rather t= han "pessimistic" :) ).
Couple notes on use cases you&#= 39;ve mentioned:
  • yes, when a new receiver added, PMTUD to= it may be performed;
  • in the ECMP environment PMTUD will use the sa= me Entropy field value as the flow for which the MTU to be discovered.
    <= /li>

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 a= t 1:14 AM, Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com> wrote:
Hi

I can certainly work on the wording. Perhaps the more important
discussion, which you also brought up, is whether it is worth doing a
pessimistic MTU in the sense that it is sub-domain wide, rather than a
path MTU that can be more optimal. One problem with path MTU and
multicast, is that it changes as the receiver set changes. For a
particular (S,G) an ingress router needs to consider the path MTU
towards each of the egress routers. This means that you need to
discover the path MTU at least each time a new receiver is added (a
new BIER bit is set) for the (S,G). Also, at any time there can be a
routing change lowering the MTU, and packets would get dropped until
the new path MTU is discovered.

A sub-domain MTU is more pessimistic, but I think it is more robust
than probing. There is less risk of packet drops (from when actual
path MTU is reduced and until it is discovered by a probe), and there
is no need of rediscovering path MTU each time a new receiver is
added. It is also easier to implement.

I'm also wondering how probing is supposed to work with ECMP. Would
the ingress router need to do a new probe each time it encapsulates
packets with a new entropy?

Stig





On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Authors, et. al,
> I understand the idea of aggregating MTU in the given BIER sub-domain = but
> I'm concerned that if there are interfaces with significantly diff= erent
> MTUs, that the proposed approach may result in lower MTU being enforce= d on
> paths capable of larger MTU. The BIER PMTUD draft does provide per pat= h
> information.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Comments:
>>
>> a)=C2=A0 "
>> Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the a= bove definition
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of a BIER interface, determines the largest payload t= hat can be sent
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER interfaces i= n the sub-
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 domain.
>> "
>>
>> The language here is unclear. Is that the MIN(all used subdomain i= nterface
>> MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense.
>>
>> b) May merit a section saying that albeit this is much lighter-wei= ght than
>> I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely p= essimistic
>> since it always picks up the smallest link in the whole subdomain<= br> >>
>> c) "MTU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have = ether mtu, link
>> mtu, interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the p= recise way
>> is to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ...
>>
>> --- tony
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BIER mailing list
>> BIER@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >

--f4f5e80cb45039dd3d05688639ec-- From nobody Thu Mar 29 09:56:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CAAD12DA70 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pWyWrap7pnuj for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3C25127522 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id m200-v6so3570754lfm.4 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:56:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4jIFEwQlXBeCSp4/cKbuh87iXJQ/8DqNgzZl2ffkRSA=; b=xj+BLZmFgVN8rTOWGY9aT9E0BiMn6aX2YdWoW3aoussKmaaC6wOml8OSnSGOgW1FTl GrzNHH94MwdELSJN78Ncflw3SYeGmqnGOUDK3Yy91DXVqGdHkaBQSxs9J8PfMJzORwBx iRKNK4cw3KSapx46yTzznC7+R+18BRv/1Dx0NXyJ6R+V1Z6f74/KTFPkDkOom67aqUh5 kSwpoqph3PvOGLFJwgLs7P/kc03HFioZcuSmtdf784wHQ+WdvSD4wfKPft4F3IhOydW0 82eVR5Ra1Yu0pTNHbWGHeafhrOmvDELypZEVxVBuIK0WLHJRmOdcQHXWYrdBzXx1jSkn x5oA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4jIFEwQlXBeCSp4/cKbuh87iXJQ/8DqNgzZl2ffkRSA=; b=NeQ4/T4wTHthcu6OEThBIHQmEILp+wNtyHx2pC5xT7tvUpQ5/NJRIfY/AaELUQpVrH DqS+b87xpvme9ESKWxUaUQTPNI5KFSPRTZwMN3vFDMPHWYjB5M95aF+McXcy4G616XcF AikHeyexVySvMuIinu7sY7FE0EmMWyVfyBYWbUqrC5R7pN4PFyBz4404hGHscrV9C+5c LPjAI+ZhiRgDvtFyilaAT7R9pMBuPszWxrW1jMx+/rllhzRX7nziEYnDHRjP/2XyAvK1 qlTN89XBbiugEo1fpvimpwi1Ci/qjxTfha15K8iqRq2Gaua5yckI00xrCi+vof3NZXve iuKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Gr/BhfDjCgSDnW55pevdJ86INmLqcIeynxND2GdCnhSfODYG1J a7DIK5JGfeN4NDlfZWfJ5Efkr13hlA8kqnqxwgnHjg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48CPy3az1ROMZpLKktrTlE7jH3Q1JZtUC7wk7agR3rIchFyXqX2rvcaFrdNnVzHjBtvb64CAEI2Nz9Lf+A2jiw= X-Received: by 10.46.158.199 with SMTP id h7mr6126145ljk.103.1522342585964; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:c9c2:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stig Venaas Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:56:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Tony Przygienda , BIER WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:56:31 -0000 Hi On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:16 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Stig, > thank you for your kind consideration of my comments. I think that Thanks, I appreciate your feedback as well. > sub-domain MTUD and PMTUD methods are complementary (I'd characterize > sub-domain method as "conservative" rather than "pessimistic" :) ). Yes, conservative sounds better, thanks! I agree the solutions can be complimentary. In a very diverse network with a few "thin" links, and with flows with big packets that are unlikely to hit the think links, PMTUD might be better. One possibility could be that for a new flow one starts with what is the sub-doman MTU (SDMTU), then one can optionally infrequently perform PMTU probing to see if the flow MTU (FMTU) is indeed larger than the SD MTU. If an FMTU > SDMTU is detected, one can allow the FMTU to be used for that particular flow and do more frequent probing in case the FMTU should become smaller due to receiver/topology changes. My main concern with FMTU probing is that there can be packet drops when the actual MTU is reduced and until the next probe is sent. Hence one need to do fairly frequent probing. By knowing the SDMTU, one can avoid the frequent probing in some cases, as I wrote above. > Couple notes on use cases you've mentioned: > > yes, when a new receiver added, PMTUD to it may be performed; I think this is important as the MTU might change whenever the receiver set changes. In traditional multicast I would call it the Tree MTU. With BIER we don't have any explicit trees, so a Flow MTU might be a better term. > in the ECMP environment PMTUD will use the same Entropy field value as the > flow for which the MTU to be discovered. Right. I was initially thinking that if different flows had the same receiver set, there was no need to probe for each of the flows, but at least with ECMP one would need to probe for each entropy value being used. The easiest is probably to just do the probing for each flow. I think it would be good to have more text in the PTMUD draft explaining the above. Also, some discussion about the probe frequency. How it is helpful to use a high frequency, but there is a trade-off (I think) between how quickly you need to discover a lower MTU and the scale (the number of flows that you need to probe). Stig > > Regards, > Greg > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:14 AM, Stig Venaas wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> I can certainly work on the wording. Perhaps the more important >> discussion, which you also brought up, is whether it is worth doing a >> pessimistic MTU in the sense that it is sub-domain wide, rather than a >> path MTU that can be more optimal. One problem with path MTU and >> multicast, is that it changes as the receiver set changes. For a >> particular (S,G) an ingress router needs to consider the path MTU >> towards each of the egress routers. This means that you need to >> discover the path MTU at least each time a new receiver is added (a >> new BIER bit is set) for the (S,G). Also, at any time there can be a >> routing change lowering the MTU, and packets would get dropped until >> the new path MTU is discovered. >> >> A sub-domain MTU is more pessimistic, but I think it is more robust >> than probing. There is less risk of packet drops (from when actual >> path MTU is reduced and until it is discovered by a probe), and there >> is no need of rediscovering path MTU each time a new receiver is >> added. It is also easier to implement. >> >> I'm also wondering how probing is supposed to work with ECMP. Would >> the ingress router need to do a new probe each time it encapsulates >> packets with a new entropy? >> >> Stig >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> > Dear Authors, et. al, >> > I understand the idea of aggregating MTU in the given BIER sub-domain >> > but >> > I'm concerned that if there are interfaces with significantly different >> > MTUs, that the proposed approach may result in lower MTU being enforced >> > on >> > paths capable of larger MTU. The BIER PMTUD draft does provide per path >> > information. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Greg >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Tony Przygienda >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Comments: >> >> >> >> a) " >> >> Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least >> >> one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above definition >> >> of a BIER interface, determines the largest payload that can be sent >> >> BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER interfaces in the sub- >> >> domain. >> >> " >> >> >> >> The language here is unclear. Is that the MIN(all used subdomain >> >> interface >> >> MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense. >> >> >> >> b) May merit a section saying that albeit this is much lighter-weight >> >> than >> >> I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely pessimistic >> >> since it always picks up the smallest link in the whole subdomain >> >> >> >> c) "MTU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu, link >> >> mtu, interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the >> >> precise way >> >> is to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ... >> >> >> >> --- tony >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> BIER mailing list >> >> BIER@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > BIER mailing list >> > BIER@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > > From nobody Thu Mar 29 10:01:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE04512DA70 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:01:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ji-fD6IPVOjH for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0FC512420B for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id e5-v6so9349627lfb.7 for ; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:01:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tubyFJI6HBqrsdzWYVD9wOE3gobnpsPfUDiRqBT04P0=; b=gI5435Ae00QlscH0nW5O2cHDcFhTmbLcWl138c6w9a/PiSJ/8HdKnB42iPI865YDk7 McS3CyJLxiHM8ZYGwSBpfGX0ZfI+pkQFZR4C1zDU+LiNpgJSkjheZppVtV0kSVLrjvCD YXHSEBFJUGU4YyAr0kzhrU2iPqe3dQRdDS1dQqpI28wqCB1SfJ/JbC9Ux5c4GYxtFnBN rtJ9K0yqp7iO2ACTbgTKYt0AlEhDeG0X2t8fAQCI02QRgZMozKc7No+RoUqD5KW/MwpL vNkanf91+YIZDdUttw4sqtXXY81O00K+6fINjVmsUFD448yjiza/NnTpj8Xuvbnxsakp FmDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tubyFJI6HBqrsdzWYVD9wOE3gobnpsPfUDiRqBT04P0=; b=P1V1hz7zvkorerkxmXN5JEb+sjv1pSZA3wRF+yH8XueFfj8Ym+vZhB+kV6OrtvzANZ 8TjJ924Lju3xEVErUXLiI/1mBUPz4sq7pJUwd3+4oyHH+MxS1SP/CdCF5m8JriC00dtX pKg6Td+ba73D7t/2Vc0XMOfSz85NMe9Tz4lgBV5J0wXcJThqhhGDbdlNQg5khmANvf7w jKoknl3yMTLZdNUZwwC260nSk9lCy/QP0MTM+CkrrtM9drRwuc1OfJvV6Jg+17E4JKlX Oz8cj6gppca/aydtahlNp+gJ56tSh8EF+Wor0FVuT56SMzoqtBFDWno8vkiqNDLqwnd0 5Z+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7ECMOZ6yBFJP+bPpzO4FChPKjAwGO1map0ejDalrIKTixaA1VGB rrj9jUWqRA85GD7E93k7wYoaEcn5hp+PaoYEQw2A3u1O X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48iEcP/5VjHMcxIHQQHt+CROFypgfoEg4DCyVQMbq2W943srdFx5SGay51l4oYaDqWNCOV65qo0NzH4FcDkKI4= X-Received: by 10.46.153.142 with SMTP id w14mr6213639lji.116.1522342867828; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:01:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:c9c2:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:01:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A20ABA@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A20ABA@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Stig Venaas Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Xiejingrong Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 17:01:13 -0000 Hi On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 6:41 PM, Xiejingrong wrote= : > Hi Stig, > > What I am worried about is that, when a new router is add to the network,= and unfortunately some of its link has a minimal MTU, then all the running= sessions would have to change. > > Also for the condition when some link with min MTU being brought up. > > Though Yes, when the network is stable enough, then "there is no need of = rediscovering path MTU each time a new receiver is added" is a benefit to m= e as well. > > So I think the most pessimistic MTU, is still a configured one, or a comp= ulsive one like what IPv6(RFC8200) defined --value 1280. I agree that this can be a problem. I would argue that this "pessimistic" or rather "conservative" MTU is still better than just using say 1280 though. The new links on that new router would hopefully not have an MTU less than 1280. I don't have a good solution to this. I guess an administrator should be careful what MTUs are configured before bringing up the interfaces. As I just wrote in another email, if you have a diverse network where a few links are much "thinner" (must less MTU) than the rest, then the downside of the sub-domain MTU is certainly that you cannot take advantage of your "thicker" links, since the MTU will be determined by the "thinnest" link. Stig > Thanks, > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stig Venaas > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 6:14 AM > To: Greg Mirsky > Cc: BIER WG > Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud > > Hi > > I can certainly work on the wording. Perhaps the more important discussio= n, which you also brought up, is whether it is worth doing a pessimistic MT= U in the sense that it is sub-domain wide, rather than a path MTU that can = be more optimal. One problem with path MTU and multicast, is that it change= s as the receiver set changes. For a particular (S,G) an ingress router nee= ds to consider the path MTU towards each of the egress routers. This means = that you need to discover the path MTU at least each time a new receiver is= added (a new BIER bit is set) for the (S,G). Also, at any time there can b= e a routing change lowering the MTU, and packets would get dropped until th= e new path MTU is discovered. > > A sub-domain MTU is more pessimistic, but I think it is more robust than = probing. There is less risk of packet drops (from when actual path MTU is r= educed and until it is discovered by a probe), and there is no need of redi= scovering path MTU each time a new receiver is added. It is also easier to = implement. > > I'm also wondering how probing is supposed to work with ECMP. Would the i= ngress router need to do a new probe each time it encapsulates packets with= a new entropy? > > Stig > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Greg Mirsky wro= te: >> Dear Authors, et. al, >> I understand the idea of aggregating MTU in the given BIER sub-domain >> but I'm concerned that if there are interfaces with significantly >> different MTUs, that the proposed approach may result in lower MTU >> being enforced on paths capable of larger MTU. The BIER PMTUD draft >> does provide per path information. >> >> Regards, >> Greg >> >> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Tony Przygienda >> wrote: >>> >>> Comments: >>> >>> a) " >>> Every BIER router, for each sub-domain with at least >>> one local BIER interface in the sub-domain, per the above definition >>> of a BIER interface, determines the largest payload that can be sent >>> BIER encapsulated out of any of its BIER interfaces in the sub- >>> domain. >>> " >>> >>> The language here is unclear. Is that the MIN(all used subdomain >>> interface >>> MTUs) ? If so, then it makes sense. >>> >>> b) May merit a section saying that albeit this is much lighter-weight >>> than I-D.ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery of course it can be widely >>> pessimistic since it always picks up the smallest link in the whole >>> subdomain >>> >>> c) "MTU in octets" is seriously underspecified. We have ether mtu, >>> link mtu, interface mtu and so on. The draft should specifiy what the >>> precise way is to advertise the "BIER MTU" here IMO ... >>> >>> --- tony >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Fri Mar 30 05:11:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35145126D73 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:11:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vc3WacynMFQa for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1C9D12422F for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id D4DA96977F8D8 for ; Fri, 30 Mar 2018 13:11:06 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Fri, 30 Mar 2018 13:11:07 +0100 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Fri, 30 Mar 2018 20:10:57 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: Stig Venaas CC: BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud Thread-Index: AQHTv57lSz9mA5wzcUO8njhd91E/r6PXS2WAgA5ziICAALzJ0IAAff6AgAHENMA= Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 12:10:55 +0000 Message-ID: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A2120D@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99A20ABA@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.217.214] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-venaas-bier-mtud X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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X19fX19fXw0KPj4+IEJJRVIgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+Pj4gQklFUkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4+IGh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmllcg0KPj4+DQo+Pg0KPj4NCj4+ IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+PiBCSUVS IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gQklFUkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9iaWVyDQo+Pg0KPg0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBCSUVSIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBCSUVSQGlldGYu b3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmllcg0K From nobody Fri Mar 30 15:14:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA07126CE8; Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:14:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.76.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152244809834.19810.2919449815768324088@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:14:58 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-11.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 22:14:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER support via ISIS Authors : Les Ginsberg Tony Przygienda Sam Aldrin Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-11.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2018-03-30 Abstract: This document defines ISIS extensions to support multicast forwarding using the Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) architecture. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-isis-extensions-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Mar 30 15:21:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8DA8126CE8; Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:21:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ucHrMc1hfNVa; Fri, 30 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C Rosen , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , BIER WG , The IESG , "draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHTqzjQtCMZ96elG0q9FqdD1n4T8KPRa+YAgACb/oCAAA/QgIAABQIAgAgLFgD//8PzwIAAV98AgAAUDrCAAGA7AIAO20uA Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 22:21:48 +0000 Message-ID: <67c2dc1792974d8db3746042d638e10e@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> References: <151923384986.9826.9021725692873708788.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <22d87ac3-eabd-784b-da03-8929e5cb00f5@juniper.net> <45b40b35-dc98-fb23-e549-a7eda2aa6aeb@juniper.net> <99bf13289a44450a86508aa22bd12bf0@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.19.72] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_67c2dc1792974d8db3746042d638e10eXCHALN001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-13: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 22:21:54 -0000 --_000_67c2dc1792974d8db3746042d638e10eXCHALN001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RXJpYyDigJMNCg0KVjExIG9mIHRoZSBJUy1JUyBkcmFmdCBoYXMgYmVlbiBwb3N0ZWQgd2hpY2gg d2UgYmVsaWV2ZSBhZGRyZXNzZXMgeW91ciBjb25jZXJucyByZWdhcmRpbmcgdGhlIFNlY3VyaXR5 IHNlY3Rpb24uDQpJZiB5b3UgYWdyZWUsIHBsZWFzZSBjbGVhciB5b3VyIERJU0NVU1MuDQpJZiBu b3QsIHBsZWFzZSBsZXQgdXMga25vdyB3aHkuDQoNClRoYW54Lg0KDQogICBMZXMNCg0KDQpGcm9t OiBFcmljIFJlc2NvcmxhIDxla3JAcnRmbS5jb20+DQpTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAyMCwg MjAxOCAxMToyNCBQTQ0KVG86IExlcyBHaW5zYmVyZyAoZ2luc2JlcmcpIDxnaW5zYmVyZ0BjaXNj 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