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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG IETF103 draft agenda
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WG,

Please read and confirm your slot request is on the agenda below. Send any
change requests ASAP. I'll upload it later today. Also time to get your
slides in. I will not accept a memory stick in the room.

Cheers,
Chairs (Shep)

BIER WG Agenda

IETF 103, Bangkok, Thailand
Wednesday, 7 November 2018 09:00-11:00
Boromphimarn

Welcome, Notewell, Agenda bash 5min Chairs
draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling  10min Hooman Bidgoli
draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute-01
draft-pengzhang-bier-global-vpnid-00  15min Sandy Zhang
draft-venaas-bier-mtud-02  10min Stig Venaas
draft-venaas-bier-pfm-sd-00  20min Stig Venaas
draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-01  10min Toerless Eckert
draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-response  15min Debashish Purkayastha
draft-zzhang-bier-tether  10min Jeffrey Zhang
draft-zzhang-bier-multicast-as-a-service  20min Jeffrey Zhang

Thursday, 8 November, 2018 11:20-12:20
Boromphimarn

WelcomeII, Notewell, Agenda bash 5min  Chairs
draft-xiong-bier-resilience-01                       10min Quan Xiong
draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
draft-xie-bier-6man-encapsulation-02                 10min Mike & Jingrong
draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-05                     15min Mike & Jingrong
draft-hu-bier-bfd-02.txt  10min Fangwei Hu

--00000000000055e2ef05799ee2a9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">WG,<div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div><div><div>Please read and confirm your slot reques=
t is on the agenda below. Send any change requests ASAP. I&#39;ll upload it=
 later today. Also time to get your slides in. I will not accept a memory s=
tick in the room.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Chairs (Shep)<=
/div></div><div><br></div><div><div>BIER WG Agenda</div><div><br></div><div=
>IETF 103, Bangkok, Thailand</div><div>Wednesday, 7 November 2018 09:00-11:=
00</div><div>Boromphimarn</div><div><br></div><div>Welcome, Notewell, Agend=
a bash<span class=3D"gmail-m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>5min<span class=3D"gmail-m_57232816813=
85483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Chairs=
</div><div>draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-m_57232816=
81385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>=
10min Hooman Bidgoli</div><div>draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute-01</div>=
<div>draft-pengzhang-bier-global-vpnid-00=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-m_57232=
81681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">			</spa=
n>15min Sandy Zhang</div><div>draft-venaas-bier-mtud-02=C2=A0<span class=3D=
"gmail-m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-=
wrap">				</span>10min Stig Venaas</div><div>draft-venaas-bier-pfm-sd-00=C2=
=A0<span class=3D"gmail-m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D=
"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>20min Stig Venaas</div><div>draft-ietf-bi=
er-te-arch-01=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-ta=
b-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>10min Toerless Eckert</di=
v><div>draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-response=C2=A0<span class=3D"g=
mail-m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wr=
ap">	</span>15min Debashish Purkayastha</div><div>draft-zzhang-bier-tether=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>10min Jeffrey Zhang</div><div>draft-zz=
hang-bier-multicast-as-a-service=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-m_57232816813854=
83971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>20min Je=
ffrey Zhang</div><div><br></div><div>Thursday, 8 November, 2018 11:20-12:20=
</div><div>Boromphimarn</div><div><br></div><div>WelcomeII, Notewell, Agend=
a bash<span class=3D"gmail-m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">			</span>5min =C2=A0Chairs</div><div>draft-xiong=
-bier-resilience-01 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10min Quan Xiong</div><div>draft-hu-bier-bfd-02</div>=
<div>draft-xie-bier-6man-encapsulation-02 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10min Mike &amp; Jingrong</div><div>draft-xie-bier=
-mvpn-segmented-05 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 15min Mike &amp; Jingrong</div><div>draft-hu-bier-bfd-02.txt=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>10min Fangwei Hu</div></div></div></di=
v></div>

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Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01
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+1 support the adoption.

My comments:

1.      The problem stated by this draft is valid, and the proposed method =
is useful for some of the listed problem. For example, EVPN BUM who uses MP=
LS identification and dataplane.

2.      EVPN BUM using vxlan/vni identification may not need a MPLS label t=
o identify the vpn/tenant.

3.      For MVPN who has a UMH(Upstream Multicast Hop) selection procedure,=
 the exist using of upstream-assigned VpnLabel can be optimized to only pop=
ulate to forwarding-state when there are c-multicast flows selecting the sp=
ecific UMH PE.

4.      For an End-to-End deployment of MVPN who spans multi-ASes as the wa=
y stated in <draft-geng-bier-sr-multicast-deployment>, the allocation of a =
global-unique label is useful and possible. But operators may need to be ve=
ry careful to allocate the very limited MPLS labels. Because, MPLS labels h=
as been divided to SRLB and SRGB, and SRGB may have been again divided by S=
R-domains according to <draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-12>.

5.      For segmented MVPN deployment, the further divide of the MPLS Label=
 is also difficult when thinking of the above.

6.      For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specific unique V=
pnLabel ? or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique label ?  i=
f it is the later one, how about adding a new BIER proto value to indicatin=
g a BIER-specific unique VpnLabel ?  And then a static Context (BIER) can b=
e optional to the dynamic advertising of a Context ?


From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski@o=
range.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:22 PM
To: bess@ietf.org
Subject: [bess] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregatio=
n-label-01

Hi WG,

This email begins a two-week poll for BESS working group adoption draft-zzh=
ang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01 [1]

Please review the draft and post any comments to the BESS working group lis=
t, stating whether or not you support adoption.

We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
If you are listed as an author or a contributor of this document, please re=
spond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any releva=
nt undisclosed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list. The document won't progr=
ess without answers from all the authors and contributors.

If you are not listed as an author or a contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.

The poll for working group adoption closes on Tue 13th November.

Regards,
St=E9phane and Matthew

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregatio=
n-label/





[Orange logo]<http://www.orange.com/>

Stephane Litkowski
Network Architect
Orange/SCE/EQUANT/OINIS/NET
Orange Expert Future Networks
phone: +33 2 23 06 49 83 <https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?targ=
et=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fclicvoice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.do=
%3Faction%3Ddefault%26rootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D+33%202%2023%2028%2049=
%2083%20>  NEW !
mobile: +33 6 71 63 27 50 <https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?tar=
get=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fclicvoice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.d=
o%3Faction%3Ddefault%26rootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D+33%206%2037%2086%209=
7%2052%20>  NEW !
stephane.litkowski@orange.com<mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>


___________________________________________________________________________=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&#43;1 support the adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">My comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">The problem stated by this draft is valid, and the propos=
ed method is useful for some of the listed problem. For example, EVPN BUM w=
ho uses MPLS identification and dataplane.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">EVPN BUM using vxlan/vni identification may not need a MP=
LS label to identify the vpn/tenant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">For MVPN who has a UMH(Upstream Multicast Hop) selection =
procedure, the exist using of upstream-assigned VpnLabel can be optimized t=
o only populate to forwarding-state
 when there are c-multicast flows selecting the specific UMH PE.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">For an End-to-End deployment of MVPN who spans multi-ASes=
 as the way stated in &lt;draft-geng-bier-sr-multicast-deployment&gt;, the =
allocation of a global-unique label is useful
 and possible. But operators may need to be very careful to allocate the ve=
ry limited MPLS labels. Because, MPLS labels has been divided to SRLB and S=
RGB, and SRGB may have been again divided by SR-domains according to &lt;dr=
aft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-12&gt;.
 &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">For segmented MVPN deployment, the further divide of the =
MPLS Label is also difficult when thinking of the above.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specifi=
c unique VpnLabel ? or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique =
label ? &nbsp;if it is the later one, how about
 adding a new BIER proto value to indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabe=
l ? &nbsp;And then a static Context (BIER) can be optional to the dynamic a=
dvertising of a Context ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>stephane.litkowski@orange.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bess@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [bess] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-agg=
regation-label-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Hi WG,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">This emai=
l begins a two-week poll for BESS working group adoption draft-zzhang-bess-=
mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01 [1]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Please re=
view the draft and post any comments to the BESS working group list, statin=
g whether or not you support adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">We are al=
so polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this Docume=
nt, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules=
 (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for
 more details).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">If you ar=
e listed as an author or a contributor of this document, please respond to =
this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant undisc=
losed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list.
 The document won't progress without answers from all the authors and contr=
ibutors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">If you ar=
e not listed as an author or a contributor, then please explicitly respond =
only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conform=
ance with IETF rules.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">The poll =
for working group adoption closes on Tue 13<sup>th</sup> November. &nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Regards,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">St=E9phan=
e and Matthew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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From nobody Mon Nov  5 03:02:04 2018
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Use of BIER Entropy for Data Center CLOS Networks
        Authors         : Jingrong Xie
                          Xiaohu Xu
                          Gang Yan
                          Mike McBride
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-entropy-staged-dc-clos-00.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2018-10-19

Abstract:
   Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) introduces a new multicast-
   specific BIER Header.  BIER can be applied to the Multi Protocol
   Label Switching (MPLS) data plane or Non-MPLS data plane.  Entropy is
   a technique used in BIER to support load-balancing.  This document
   examines and describes how BIER Entropy is to be applied to Data
   Center CLOS networks for path selection.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-entropy-staged-dc-clos/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-entropy-staged-dc-clos-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
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Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 23:10:33 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG IETF103 draft agenda
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--0000000000000f6da10579f9b3a8
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Thanks to everyone who's sent in their slides. We're still waiting for a
few more. I'll upload what I have now.

Cheers,
Chairs
(Shep)

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 10:33 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:

> WG,
>
> Please read and confirm your slot request is on the agenda below. Send any
> change requests ASAP. I'll upload it later today. Also time to get your
> slides in. I will not accept a memory stick in the room.
>
> Cheers,
> Chairs (Shep)
>
> BIER WG Agenda
>
> IETF 103, Bangkok, Thailand
> Wednesday, 7 November 2018 09:00-11:00
> Boromphimarn
>
> Welcome, Notewell, Agenda bash 5min Chairs
> draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling 10min Hooman Bidgoli
> draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute-01
> draft-pengzhang-bier-global-vpnid-00 15min Sandy Zhang
> draft-venaas-bier-mtud-02 10min Stig Venaas
> draft-venaas-bier-pfm-sd-00 20min Stig Venaas
> draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-01 10min Toerless Eckert
> draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-response 15min Debashish Purkayastha
> draft-zzhang-bier-tether 10min Jeffrey Zhang
> draft-zzhang-bier-multicast-as-a-service 20min Jeffrey Zhang
>
> Thursday, 8 November, 2018 11:20-12:20
> Boromphimarn
>
> WelcomeII, Notewell, Agenda bash 5min  Chairs
> draft-xiong-bier-resilience-01                       10min Quan Xiong
> draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
> draft-xie-bier-6man-encapsulation-02                 10min Mike & Jingrong
> draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-05                     15min Mike & Jingrong
> draft-hu-bier-bfd-02.txt 10min Fangwei Hu
>

--0000000000000f6da10579f9b3a8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks to everyone who&#39;s sent in their slides. We&#39;=
re still waiting for a few more. I&#39;ll upload what I have now.=C2=A0<div=
><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Chairs</div><div>(Shep)</div></div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 10:33 AM =
Greg Shepherd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">WG,<div><br></div><div>Please read and confirm your slot request =
is on the agenda below. Send any change requests ASAP. I&#39;ll upload it l=
ater today. Also time to get your slides in. I will not accept a memory sti=
ck in the room.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Chairs (Shep)</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><div>BIER WG Agenda</div><div><br></div><div>IETF 10=
3, Bangkok, Thailand</div><div>Wednesday, 7 November 2018 09:00-11:00</div>=
<div>Boromphimarn</div><div><br></div><div>Welcome, Notewell, Agenda bash<s=
pan class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-spac=
e:pre-wrap">				</span>5min<span class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-=
tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Chairs</div><div>draft-hj-=
bier-ldp-signaling <span class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span=
" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>10min Hooman Bidgoli</div><div>=
draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute-01</div><div>draft-pengzhang-bier-globa=
l-vpnid-00 <span class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">			</span>15min Sandy Zhang</div><div>draft-venaa=
s-bier-mtud-02 <span class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" st=
yle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>10min Stig Venaas</div><div>draft-v=
enaas-bier-pfm-sd-00 <span class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-sp=
an" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>20min Stig Venaas</div><div>d=
raft-ietf-bier-te-arch-01 <span class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-t=
ab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>10min Toerless Eckert</d=
iv><div>draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-response <span class=3D"m_572=
3281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</spa=
n>15min Debashish Purkayastha</div><div>draft-zzhang-bier-tether <span clas=
s=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wr=
ap">				</span>10min Jeffrey Zhang</div><div>draft-zzhang-bier-multicast-as=
-a-service <span class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>20min Jeffrey Zhang</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Thursday, 8 November, 2018 11:20-12:20</div><div>Boromphimarn</div><di=
v><br></div><div>WelcomeII, Notewell, Agenda bash<span class=3D"m_572328168=
1385483971gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">			</span>5m=
in =C2=A0Chairs</div><div>draft-xiong-bier-resilience-01 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10min Quan Xion=
g</div><div>draft-hu-bier-bfd-02</div><div>draft-xie-bier-6man-encapsulatio=
n-02 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10min Mike &am=
p; Jingrong</div><div>draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-05 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15min Mike &amp; Jingrong=
</div><div>draft-hu-bier-bfd-02.txt <span class=3D"m_5723281681385483971gma=
il-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">				</span>10min Fangwei =
Hu</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000000f6da10579f9b3a8--


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From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding BIER Proto value 1 and Comments on draft-pengzhang-bier-global-vpnid
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 03:01:37 +0000
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Subject: [Bier] Question regarding BIER Proto value 1 and Comments on draft-pengzhang-bier-global-vpnid
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Hi BIERs,

Just to clarify in text about my point on the ietf103 mic.


For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabel =
? or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique label ?



if it is the later one, how about adding a new BIER proto value to indicati=
ng a BIER-specific unique VpnLabel ?  the proposal of < draft-pengzhang-bie=
r-global-vnid> is useful then.



If it is the former one, then there is no need to add another BIER proto va=
lue.




From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xiejingrong
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 10:33 PM
To: stephane.litkowski@orange.com; bess@ietf.org
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [bess] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggreg=
ation-label-01

+1 support the adoption.

My comments:

1.      The problem stated by this draft is valid, and the proposed method =
is useful for some of the listed problem. For example, EVPN BUM who uses MP=
LS identification and dataplane.

2.      EVPN BUM using vxlan/vni identification may not need a MPLS label t=
o identify the vpn/tenant.

3.      For MVPN who has a UMH(Upstream Multicast Hop) selection procedure,=
 the exist using of upstream-assigned VpnLabel can be optimized to only pop=
ulate to forwarding-state when there are c-multicast flows selecting the sp=
ecific UMH PE.

4.      For an End-to-End deployment of MVPN who spans multi-ASes as the wa=
y stated in <draft-geng-bier-sr-multicast-deployment>, the allocation of a =
global-unique label is useful and possible. But operators may need to be ve=
ry careful to allocate the very limited MPLS labels. Because, MPLS labels h=
as been divided to SRLB and SRGB, and SRGB may have been again divided by S=
R-domains according to <draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-12>.

5.      For segmented MVPN deployment, the further divide of the MPLS Label=
 is also difficult when thinking of the above.

6.      For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specific unique V=
pnLabel ? or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique label ?  i=
f it is the later one, how about adding a new BIER proto value to indicatin=
g a BIER-specific unique VpnLabel ?  And then a static Context (BIER) can b=
e optional to the dynamic advertising of a Context ?


From: BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski@o=
range.com<mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:22 PM
To: bess@ietf.org<mailto:bess@ietf.org>
Subject: [bess] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregatio=
n-label-01

Hi WG,

This email begins a two-week poll for BESS working group adoption draft-zzh=
ang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01 [1]

Please review the draft and post any comments to the BESS working group lis=
t, stating whether or not you support adoption.

We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to th=
is Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
If you are listed as an author or a contributor of this document, please re=
spond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any releva=
nt undisclosed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list. The document won't progr=
ess without answers from all the authors and contributors.

If you are not listed as an author or a contributor, then please explicitly=
 respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed i=
n conformance with IETF rules.

The poll for working group adoption closes on Tue 13th November.

Regards,
St=E9phane and Matthew

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregatio=
n-label/





[Orange logo]<http://www.orange.com/>

Stephane Litkowski
Network Architect
Orange/SCE/EQUANT/OINIS/NET
Orange Expert Future Networks
phone: +33 2 23 06 49 83 <https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?targ=
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%3Faction%3Ddefault%26rootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D+33%202%2023%2028%2049=
%2083%20>  NEW !
mobile: +33 6 71 63 27 50 <https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?tar=
get=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fclicvoice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.d=
o%3Faction%3Ddefault%26rootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D+33%206%2037%2086%209=
7%2052%20>  NEW !
stephane.litkowski@orange.com<mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>


___________________________________________________________________________=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hi BIERs,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Just to clarify in text about my point on the ietf103 mic.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">For BIER, is =
the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabel ? or a Per-pl=
atform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique
 label ? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">if it is the =
later one, how about adding a new BIER proto value to indicating a BIER-spe=
cific unique VpnLabel ? &nbsp;the proposal of
 &lt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">draft-pengzhang-bier-global-vnid&gt; is useful =
then.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">If it is the =
former one, then there is no need to add another BIER proto value.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xiejingrong<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 4, 2018 10:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> stephane.litkowski@orange.com; bess@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> bier@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bess] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn=
-aggregation-label-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&#43;1 support the adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">My comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">The problem stated by this draft is valid, and the propos=
ed method is useful for some of the listed problem. For example, EVPN BUM w=
ho uses MPLS identification and dataplane.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">EVPN BUM using vxlan/vni identification may not need a MP=
LS label to identify the vpn/tenant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">For MVPN who has a UMH(Upstream Multicast Hop) selection =
procedure, the exist using of upstream-assigned VpnLabel can be optimized t=
o only populate to forwarding-state
 when there are c-multicast flows selecting the specific UMH PE.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">For an End-to-End deployment of MVPN who spans multi-ASes=
 as the way stated in &lt;draft-geng-bier-sr-multicast-deployment&gt;, the =
allocation of a global-unique label is useful
 and possible. But operators may need to be very careful to allocate the ve=
ry limited MPLS labels. Because, MPLS labels has been divided to SRLB and S=
RGB, and SRGB may have been again divided by SR-domains according to &lt;dr=
aft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-12&gt;.
 &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">For segmented MVPN deployment, the further divide of the =
MPLS Label is also difficult when thinking of the above.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#=
1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:#1F497D">For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specifi=
c unique VpnLabel ? or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique =
label ? &nbsp;if it is the later one, how about
 adding a new BIER proto value to indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabe=
l ? &nbsp;And then a static Context (BIER) can be optional to the dynamic a=
dvertising of a Context ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> BESS [<a href=3D"mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:bess-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stepha=
ne.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org">bess@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [bess] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-agg=
regation-label-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Hi WG,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">This emai=
l begins a two-week poll for BESS working group adoption draft-zzhang-bess-=
mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01 [1]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Please re=
view the draft and post any comments to the BESS working group list, statin=
g whether or not you support adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">We are al=
so polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this Docume=
nt, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules=
 (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for
 more details).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">If you ar=
e listed as an author or a contributor of this document, please respond to =
this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant undisc=
losed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list.
 The document won't progress without answers from all the authors and contr=
ibutors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">If you ar=
e not listed as an author or a contributor, then please explicitly respond =
only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conform=
ance with IETF rules.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">The poll =
for working group adoption closes on Tue 13<sup>th</sup> November. &nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Regards,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">St=E9phan=
e and Matthew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">[1] <a href=3D"https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label/">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-la=
bel/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.orange.co=
m/"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,serif;text-decoration:none"><img border=3D"0" width=3D"40" height=3D"40" i=
d=3D"Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01D47680.D9CEB0C0" alt=3D"Ora=
nge logo"></span></a></span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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yle=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Stephane Litkowski
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Network Architect
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tim=
es New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Orange/SCE/EQUANT/OINIS/NET</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;,serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Orange Expert Future Networks=
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">phone:
<a href=3D"https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?target=3Dhttp%3A%2F=
%2Fclicvoice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.do%3Faction%3Ddef=
ault%26rootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D&#43;33%202%2023%2028%2049%2083%20">
<span style=3D"color:black">&#43;33 2 23 <b>06</b> 49 83 </span></a>&nbsp;N=
EW&nbsp;!</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:black">mobile:
<a href=3D"https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?target=3Dhttp%3A%2F=
%2Fclicvoice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.do%3Faction%3Ddef=
ault%26rootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D&#43;33%206%2037%2086%2097%2052%20">
<span style=3D"color:black">&#43;33 6 71 63 27 50 </span></a>&nbsp;NEW&nbsp=
;!</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
<a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#FF6600">stephane.litk=
owski@orange.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">_________________________________________________=
________________________________________________________________________<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
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<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les piece=
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<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message=
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 10:44:21 +0700
Message-ID: <CA+wi2hM48Qn9uRVmJkhZYhoCWyWc1=E04cunrpt5hKNGQWWnZg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/5z7VG52BPam0ivHY2fdHDYTllHA>
Subject: Re: [Bier] Question regarding BIER Proto value 1 and Comments on draft-pengzhang-bier-global-vpnid
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The differentiation between MPLS upstream and downstream was unavoidable
AFAIR but it is not the function of BIER next protocol field to start to
interpret WHAT the labels mean, otherwise we'll run out of bits real fast
and moreover, start to slave BIER as transport fabric to overlay's using
it. So, the answer is _no_, overlay has to understand what context the
label represents after popping it from the BIER frame ...

--- tony

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 10:02 AM Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi BIERs,
>
>
>
> Just to clarify in text about my point on the ietf103 mic.
>
>
>
> For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabe=
l ?
> or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique label ?
>
>
>
> if it is the later one, how about adding a new BIER proto value to
> indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabel ?  the proposal of < draft-pen=
gzhang-bier-global-vnid>
> is useful then.
>
>
>
> If it is the former one, then there is no need to add another BIER proto
> value.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Xiejingrong
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 4, 2018 10:33 PM
> *To:* stephane.litkowski@orange.com; bess@ietf.org
> *Cc:* bier@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [bess] WG adoption poll for
> draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01
>
>
>
> +1 support the adoption.
>
>
>
> My comments:
>
> 1.      The problem stated by this draft is valid, and the proposed
> method is useful for some of the listed problem. For example, EVPN BUM wh=
o
> uses MPLS identification and dataplane.
>
> 2.      EVPN BUM using vxlan/vni identification may not need a MPLS label
> to identify the vpn/tenant.
>
> 3.      For MVPN who has a UMH(Upstream Multicast Hop) selection
> procedure, the exist using of upstream-assigned VpnLabel can be optimized
> to only populate to forwarding-state when there are c-multicast flows
> selecting the specific UMH PE.
>
> 4.      For an End-to-End deployment of MVPN who spans multi-ASes as the
> way stated in <draft-geng-bier-sr-multicast-deployment>, the allocation o=
f
> a global-unique label is useful and possible. But operators may need to b=
e
> very careful to allocate the very limited MPLS labels. Because, MPLS labe=
ls
> has been divided to SRLB and SRGB, and SRGB may have been again divided b=
y
> SR-domains according to
> <draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-12>.
>
> 5.      For segmented MVPN deployment, the further divide of the MPLS
> Label is also difficult when thinking of the above.
>
> 6.      For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specific unique
> VpnLabel ? or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique label ?
>  if it is the later one, how about adding a new BIER proto value to
> indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabel ?  And then a static Context
> (BIER) can be optional to the dynamic advertising of a Context ?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* BESS [mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org <bess-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:22 PM
> *To:* bess@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [bess] WG adoption poll for
> draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01
>
>
>
> Hi WG,
>
>
>
> This email begins a two-week poll for BESS working group adoption
> draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01 [1]
>
>
>
> Please review the draft and post any comments to the BESS working group
> list, stating whether or not you support adoption.
>
>
>
> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to
> this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with
> IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
> If you are listed as an author or a contributor of this document, please
> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any
> relevant undisclosed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list. The document won=
't
> progress without answers from all the authors and contributors.
>
>
>
> If you are not listed as an author or a contributor, then please
> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been
> disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
>
> The poll for working group adoption closes on Tue 13th November.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> St=C3=A9phane and Matthew
>
>
>
> [1]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-=
label/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Orange logo] <http://www.orange.com/>
>
>
>
> *Stephane Litkowski *
> Network Architect
> Orange/SCE/EQUANT/OINIS/NET
>
> Orange Expert Future Networks
>
> phone: +33 2 23 *06* 49 83
> <https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?target=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fclicv=
oice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.do%3Faction%3Ddefault%26r=
ootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D+33%202%2023%2028%2049%2083%20>
>  NEW !
> mobile: +33 6 71 63 27 50
> <https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?target=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fclicv=
oice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.do%3Faction%3Ddefault%26r=
ootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D+33%206%2037%2086%2097%2052%20>
>  NEW !
> stephane.litkowski@orange.com
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The differentiation between MPLS upstream and downstr=
eam was unavoidable AFAIR but it is not the function of BIER next protocol =
field to start to interpret WHAT the labels mean, otherwise we&#39;ll run o=
ut of bits real fast and moreover, start to slave BIER as transport fabric =
to overlay&#39;s using it. So, the answer is _no_, overlay has to understan=
d what context the label represents after popping it from the BIER frame ..=
. <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div></div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 10:02 AM Xiejingrong &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@=
huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d">Hi BIERs,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d">Just to clarify in text about my point on the ietf103 mic.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d">For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BI=
ER-specific unique VpnLabel ? or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assign=
ed unique
 label ? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d">if it is the later one, how about adding a new =
BIER proto value to indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabel ? =C2=A0the =
proposal of
 &lt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d">draft-pengzhang-bier-global-vnid&gt; is useful =
then.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d">If it is the former one, then there is no need =
to add another BIER proto value.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> BESS [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">bess-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xiejingrong<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 4, 2018 10:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">bess@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bess] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn=
-aggregation-label-01<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d">+1 support the adoption.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d">My comments:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><span>=
1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:#1f497d">The problem stated by this draft is valid, and the proposed =
method is useful for some of the listed problem. For example, EVPN BUM who =
uses MPLS identification and dataplane.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><span>=
2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:#1f497d">EVPN BUM using vxlan/vni identification may not need a MPLS =
label to identify the vpn/tenant.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><span>=
3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:#1f497d">For MVPN who has a UMH(Upstream Multicast Hop) selection pro=
cedure, the exist using of upstream-assigned VpnLabel can be optimized to o=
nly populate to forwarding-state
 when there are c-multicast flows selecting the specific UMH PE.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><span>=
4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:#1f497d">For an End-to-End deployment of MVPN who spans multi-ASes as=
 the way stated in &lt;draft-geng-bier-sr-multicast-deployment&gt;, the all=
ocation of a global-unique label is useful
 and possible. But operators may need to be very careful to allocate the ve=
ry limited MPLS labels. Because, MPLS labels has been divided to SRLB and S=
RGB, and SRGB may have been again divided by SR-domains according to &lt;dr=
aft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-12&gt;.
 =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><span>=
5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:#1f497d">For segmented MVPN deployment, the further divide of the MPL=
S Label is also difficult when thinking of the above.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1f497d"><span>=
6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:#1f497d">For BIER, is the BIER proto=3D1 indicating a BIER-specific u=
nique VpnLabel ? or a Per-platform (RFC5331) downstream-assigned unique lab=
el ? =C2=A0if it is the later one, how about
 adding a new BIER proto value to indicating a BIER-specific unique VpnLabe=
l ?=C2=A0 And then a static Context (BIER) can be optional to the dynamic a=
dvertising of a Context ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> BESS [<a href=3D"mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mailto:bess-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bess@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bess@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [bess] WG adoption poll for draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-agg=
regation-label-01<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Hi WG,<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">This emai=
l begins a two-week poll for BESS working group adoption draft-zzhang-bess-=
mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01 [1]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Please re=
view the draft and post any comments to the BESS working group list, statin=
g whether or not you support adoption.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">We are al=
so polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this Docume=
nt, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules=
 (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for
 more details).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">If you ar=
e listed as an author or a contributor of this document, please respond to =
this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant undisc=
losed IPR, copying the BESS mailing list.
 The document won&#39;t progress without answers from all the authors and c=
ontributors.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">If you ar=
e not listed as an author or a contributor, then please explicitly respond =
only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conform=
ance with IETF rules.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">The poll =
for working group adoption closes on Tue 13<sup>th</sup> November. =C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">Regards,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">St=C3=A9p=
hane and Matthew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">[1] <a href=3D"https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label/" target=3D"=
_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-la=
bel/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.orange.co=
m/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tim=
es New Roman&quot;,serif;text-decoration:none"><img border=3D"0" width=3D"4=
0" height=3D"40" id=3D"m_6731771528763525746m_-48933520317561572Picture_x00=
20_1" alt=3D"Orange logo"></span></a></span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Stephane Litkowski
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Network Architect
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tim=
es New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Orange/SCE/EQUANT/OINIS/NET</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Orange Expert Future Networks=
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">phone:
<a href=3D"https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?target=3Dhttp%3A%2F=
%2Fclicvoice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.do%3Faction%3Ddef=
ault%26rootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D+33%202%2023%2028%2049%2083%20" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:black">+33 2 23 <b>06</b> 49 83 </span></a>=C2=A0NEW=
=C2=A0!</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:black">mobile:
<a href=3D"https://monsi.sso.francetelecom.fr/index.asp?target=3Dhttp%3A%2F=
%2Fclicvoice.sso.francetelecom.fr%2FClicvoiceV2%2FToolBar.do%3Faction%3Ddef=
ault%26rootservice%3DSIGNATURE%26to%3D+33%206%2037%2086%2097%2052%20" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:black">+33 6 71 63 27 50 </span></a>=C2=A0NEW=C2=A0!</=
span><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
<a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#ff6=
600">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</span></a>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">_________________________________________________=
________________________________________________________________________<u>=
</u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir=
 des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<u></u>=
<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autor=
isation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<u></=
u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les p=
ieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alterati=
on,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message=
 a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain conf=
idential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<u></u><u><=
/u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">they should not be distributed, used or copied wi=
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notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<u></u><u></u=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable fo=
r messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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One more BIER meeting today. I've uploaded all latest revs to the materials
page. See you all again soon.

Shep

--0000000000001a739a057a1dc85a
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<div dir="ltr">One more BIER meeting today. I&#39;ve uploaded all latest revs to the materials page. See you all again soon.<div><br></div><div>Shep</div></div>

--0000000000001a739a057a1dc85a--


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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:20:59 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/Ut5PUSHHU8ByGKGSNsjZo4ynNac>
Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt
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Hi Jingrong,

Please see zzh> below.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:59 AM
> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; bier@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-
> 06.txt
>=20
> Hi Jeffrey,
>=20
> Thank you very much for the helpful comments.
> There are some very interesting topic I want to discuss with you BIER men=
.
> See my opinions inline below marked with [XJR].
>=20
> Jingrong.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 10:07 PM
> To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-
> 06.txt
>=20
> Hi Jingrong,
>=20
> Please see my comments below.
>=20
> A general comment is that this problem is not specific to BIER. Even if i=
t's just
> ingress replication, we'd also need IP lookup if we're not using per-flow=
 labels
> for segmentation points to do label switching. The only difference betwee=
n
> BIER and IR is that IR does not require S-PMSI routes (as the label can b=
e
> carried in auto-triggered Leaf AD routes); If it's P2MP tunnels, we also =
need S-
> PMSI route to advertise per-PMSI labels unless we do IP lookup.
>=20
> [XJR]: IP lookup for {ingress replication + GTM case} has been described =
in
> RFC7988/RFC7524 ('IP processing' in there), so this draft is BIER specifi=
c case.
> Moreover, this draft is an update of <draft-ietf-bier-mvpn>, which uses L=
abel
> lookup and LIR explicit-tracking for segmented mvpn, and mainly focus on
> BIER-BIER segmented MVPN ( I think).

Zzh> Good that they already talked about it. It's clear that it is not a BI=
ER specific issue (and equally applies to EVPN). Instead of writing a docum=
ents for every tunnel type, we can generalize it (see my summary in the pre=
vious email) - in fact, in this draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented there is real=
ly no BIER specific things (BIER encapsulation/decapsulation is no differen=
t from label push/pop that is used with IR).

>=20
> Therefore, I don't think this solution should be targeted at BIER. A simp=
le BESS
> document could be written, covering the following generic points:
> - The labels in I-PMSI routes could lead to label switching into next seg=
ment, or
> could lead to IP lookup in a local VRF. This is purely a local decision b=
ased on
> whether you want to do ip lookup or not.
> - The labels in S-PMSI routes (if those routes are sent), if different fr=
om the
> label in a corresponding I-PMSI, lead to label switching into next segmen=
t.
> - Leaf A-D routes trigger corresponding (s/*,g) routes in VRFs, if ip loo=
kup is
> desired/required
> - Upstream PE/ABR uses the label advertised in the matching x-PMSI routes
> (BIER/P2MP) or Leaf AD routes (IR) to send traffic
> [XJR]: Thanks for the remind of more generic points. Maybe we can borrow
> some very useful words from the RFC7988/7524. For example, [The
> procedures for such disaggregation require IP processing on the ingress A=
BRs]
> from RFC7524 is very suitable for BIER too, which need a disaggregation
> (through BIER encapsulation for per-flow) further from a per-tunnel/un-
> optimized BIER tunnel. Also this can make the whole BIER/MLDP/RSVP/IR for
> MVPN/GTM consolidate.
>=20
>=20
> As I pointed out before, doing IP lookup is not really better than per-fl=
ow/PMSI
> based label switching with respect to FIB size and forwarding performance=
. To
> do IP lookup you need to maintain (s,g) routes in different VRFs (for
> comparison you only need labels in the default/master instance if you do =
label
> switching). One can argue that this is actually less efficient - you need=
 to first
> do a label lookup to determine the VRF, and then do an IP lookup. Using I=
P
> lookup requires more forwarding state, and more forwarding cycles; the on=
ly
> saving you get is the elimination of control plane S-PMSI routes that dis=
tribute
> per-flow labels (and the corresponding delay). If that is super important=
, sure
> you can do IP lookup but the following text should be updated to point ou=
t
> pros and cons:
> [XJR]: Again thanks for the remind on the emphasis the comparison of IP
> lookup and Label lookup. I think the 'forwarding cycles', 'the FIB size',=
 is the
> significant thing need to be mentioned. And make the 'pros and cons' more
> clear.
> For the 'forwarding state', one example maybe from N to N+1 in number. Fo=
r
> example, in BIER-BIER segmented case, or IPMSI P2MP-BIER segmented case,
> or BIER-IPMSI P2MP segmented case, the IP lookup will need one 'forwardin=
g
> state' of Label (to find the PseudoVRF), and N 'forwarding state' of per-=
flow IP
> (to find the BitString).
> In some other cases, maybe from N to N+M.
> In the worst cases, maybe from N to N+N.

Zzh> By forwarding state I was more referring to the "route -> nexthop" ent=
ries. You need an extra entry for each flow. The Bitstring info is part of =
the "nexthop".

> So again, words from RFC7524 is very suitable for this: "if the ingress a=
rea uses
> wildcard S-PMSI, then the backbone area also SHOULD use wildcard S-PMSI f=
or
> global table multicast, or the ingress ABRs MUST be able to disaggregate =
traffic
> carried over the wildcard S-PMSI onto the backbone area (S,G) or (*,G) S-
> PMSIs."
> So the same is suitable for BIER case: if ingress area use P2MP wildcard =
S-PMSI,
> and egress area use BIER, and the user want to leverage the BIER without
> flooding, then ABRs MUST do IP lookup.

Zzh> That's another example of "generalization": BIER tunnel is no differen=
t from other tunnels.

>=20
>    In conclusion, the pattern of forwarding packets on segmentation
>    points only by lookup of MPLS label mapped from multicast flow(s) is
>    significantly unnecessary when BIER is introduced.  Instead, doing a
>    per-flow lookup of IP header on segmentation points is more efficient
>    and consolidated.
>=20
> Comments about some specific text:
>=20
>    o  Getting a much better multicast join latency by eliminating the
>       round trip interaction of S-PMSI AD routes and Leaf AD routes.
>       Especially, the S-PMSI A-D routes may need a data-driven procedure
>       to trigger, and make the multicast join latency even worse.
>=20
> The S-PMSI routes could be triggered by leaf A-D routes (section 7.2.2.1 =
RFC
> 7524) instead of data driven.
> Additionally, a way to reduce latency w/o requiring ip lookup is to use I=
-PMSI
> initially for a short period of time.
> [XJR]: We use the word *may* to say this is a possible case. We have
> considered the possibility of C-multicast routes triggered, or any (S,G) =
state
> triggered S-PMSI route.
> Thank you again for the introducing of another case.
> The RFC7988 is also a big help to understand. "Note that joining an
> unadvertised IR P-tunnel is only possible when using the "global table
> multicast" procedures of [RFC7524]."

In this context, the GTM procedures in RFC7524 is basically triggering S-PM=
SI route based on received Leaf route. It applies to BIER as well, and can =
actually be applied to VRF. Yet another case of generalization.

>=20
> [XJR]: Running BIER on a 'I-PMSI' manner w/o IP lookup is a good topic I =
want
> to discuss.
> I found a word 'compromised' in the Security section of RFC8279. Do we wa=
nt
> to do such a 'compromise' for a BIER deployment ?
> I prefer personally not to use a 'compromised' manner for BIER from the i=
mpl
> side, and I would like to call this an 'S-PMSI only' replication, but unf=
ortunately
> the 'S-PMSI only' has been used by RFC6625 for control-plane.
> I'd like very much to learn more about your opinions from the BIER WG. @A=
LL.

I don't see why this is a concern in this context. If you care about the fo=
llowing:

   If a BFIR is compromised, it may impose a BIER encapsulation with all
   the bits in the BitString set; this would also result in a DoS
   attack.

It is applicable w/ or w/o segmentation.

Jeffrey

>=20
>    o  Consolidated forwarding procedure of IP lookup for every BIER
>       Overlay functioning routers, such as BFIR, BFER, segmentation
>       point BFR, and segmentation point BFR with BFER function.
>=20
> This consolidation is not really necessary. Indeed an implementation like=
ly will
> support both label switching and ip lookup, but it does not mean ip looku=
p is
> the preferred way on a segmentation point.
> [XJR]: This consolidation is useful to say that, an IP lookup following a=
n
> upstream VpnLabel lookup is not an *new* requirement of implementation
> (especially in data-plane). I am happy to change the word too.
>=20
> Jeffrey
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Xiejingrong
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 9:58 PM
> > To: bier@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-
> > segmented-06.txt
> >
> > Hi BIER WG,
> >
> > This draft was updated greatly in the past days, and I feel it is clear=
 now.
> > It is a little long, so a discussion on mic may be not enough if it is
> > not read through.
> > Welcome very much for your feedback/inputs on this on the maillist.
> > Thank you very much.
> >
> > My log about this draft:
> > ---- the term 'BIER tunnel', 'P2MP tunnel' and 'BGP-MVPN FEC'.
> > ---- tunnel sticking can be between any two of mLDP/RSVP-TE/IR/BIER.
> > ---- e2e sticked tunnel can be bound to one or many 'BGP-MVPN FEC(s)'
> > from some IngressPE and VRF, and Ingress PE can decide to use which
> > sticked tunnel for which flow(s).
> > ---- the per-tunnel sticking of upstream tunnel and downstream
> > tunnels, and the per-flow IP lookup for downstream BIER encapsulation
> > (BitString), are separated/decoupled.
> >
> > Jingrong
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > A new version of I-D, draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Jingrong Xie and posted to the IETF
> > repository.
> >
> > Name:		draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented
> > Revision:	06
> > Title:		Segmented MVPN Using IP Lookup for BIER
> > Document date:	2018-10-22
> > Group:		Individual Submission
> > Pages:		17
> > URL:            https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
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> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DlCVRhdEuZwZXblwJ
> > mBdPKkH4GIQM4PDVRRuIiKw4Ju8&e=3D
> > Htmlized:       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DgbhCl0sGTUhaL2qG
> > 9dKQnIqdjbHDWbhqrxfYGwitON4&e=3D
> > Diff:           https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented-2D06&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DmiQxM2C8rvh6wm
> > qVNaxpqPO6yjgfVTjFmfkPZdT4-go&e=3D
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This document specifies an alternative of the control plane and data
> >    plane procedures that allow segmented MVPN using the more efficient
> >    LIR-pF explicit-tracking when BIER is used as the upstream or
> >    downstream or both segments.  It requires a segmentation point BFR
> >    doing an IP header lookup, which is common for the forwarding
> >    procedure on BFER, or the forwarding procedure on ABR with local VPN
> >    CEs connected.  This document updates [I-D.ietf-bier-mvpn].
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> >
> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf
> > h0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DAdJYxmU8rM5KwV
> > pemxMtSZVaPU4ryXOePtnaqFuO7dw&e=3D


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" <draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org>
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" <draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org>
CC: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 04:20:58 +0000
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:18:27 +0700
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To: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn
Cc: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org,  BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, bfd@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
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Hi Reshad,
thank you for taking the time to review and sharing your comments, much
appreciated. I'll add to answers by Fangwei, please find them in-line
tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 11:27 AM <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi, Rahman
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> Plese see inline marked with[hfw].
>
>
> >Hi,
>
>
>
> >I just took a quick look at the draft:
>
> >1.Section 1, 2nd paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6detect unicast fai=
lures..=E2=80=9D, I
> believe this  should be unidirectional?
>
> [hfw] Agree, the BFD multipoint document only defines the unidirectional
> deteck from header to one or more tails.
>
GIM>> Great catch, thank you. Will fix in the next version.

> >2.Section 1, 3rd paragraph says that active-tail is for further study.
> So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?  If the
> head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?
>
> [hfw] Ok. Actually, we are considering the active-tails solution. It  wil=
l
> be added in the next version.
>
GIM>> Our plan is to use BFD for Multipoint Network with Active Tail
specfication as the base for this mode. Since tails in p2mp BFD are in the
Demand mode the head only can query all tail and/or the particular tail
using the Poll sequence (referred as multicast and unicast Poll). Depending
on the type of the failure, the head may recieve or not the BFD control
message with Final flag set. Absence of the response in combination with
the content of the Diag field must be used to draw the conclusion on
liveleness of the path from the head to the particular tail. From here the
head may use BIER Ping to localize the defect and switch to using the
alternative path through the BIER domain by using different transient BFRs.

>
> Regards
>
> Fangwei.
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*ReshadRahman(rrahman) <rrahman@cisc=
o.com>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org <draft-h=
u-bier-bfd@ietf.org>;
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*bier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>;bfd@i=
etf.org <bfd@ietf.org>;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8808=E6=97=A5 11:56
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02*
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I just took a quick look at the draft:
>
>    1.
>
>    Section 1, 2nd paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6detect unicast fai=
lures..=E2=80=9D, I
>    believe this  should be unidirectional?
>    2.
>
>    Section 1, 3rd paragraph says that active-tail is for further study.
>    So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?  If t=
he
>    head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Reshad.
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Reshad,<div>thank you for taking the time to review and=
 sharing your=C2=A0comments, much appreciated. I&#39;ll add to answers by F=
angwei, please find them in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 11:27 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hu.fangwei@zte.c=
om.cn">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div class=3D"m_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p style=3D"font-s=
ize:14px;font-family:arial">Hi, Rahman</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-f=
amily:arial">Thanks for your comments.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-f=
amily:arial">Plese see inline marked with[hfw].</p><p style=3D"font-size:14=
px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"line-height:21px;white-space:norm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:15px">&gt;Hi,</span></p><p style=3D"line-heigh=
t:21px;white-space:normal"><span style=3D"font-size:15px">=C2=A0</span></p>=
<p style=3D"line-height:21px;white-space:normal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
5px">&gt;I just took a quick look at the draft:</span></p><p><span style=3D=
"font-size:15px">&gt;1.Section 1, 2<sup>nd</sup>=C2=A0paragraph mentions =
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6</span>detect unicast failures..=E2=80=9D, I believe this=
 =C2=A0should be unidirectional?</p><p>[hfw] Agree, the BFD multipoint docu=
ment only defines the unidirectional deteck from header to one or more tail=
s.</p></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Great catch, thank you. Will fix =
in the next version.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=
=3D"m_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p><span style=3D"font-size:15px">&gt=
;2.Section 1, 3<sup>rd</sup>=C2=A0paragraph says that active-tail is for fu=
rther study. So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notifie=
d?=C2=A0 If the head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?</s=
pan></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">[hfw] Ok. Actually, w=
e are considering the active-tails solution. It =C2=A0will be added in the =
next version.</p></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Our plan is to use BFD=
 for Multipoint Network with Active Tail specfication as the base for this =
mode. Since tails in p2mp BFD are in the Demand mode the head only can quer=
y all tail and/or the particular tail using the Poll sequence (referred as =
multicast and unicast Poll). Depending on the type of the failure, the head=
 may recieve or not the BFD control message with Final flag set. Absence of=
 the response in combination with the content of the Diag field must be use=
d to draw the conclusion on liveleness of the path from the head to the par=
ticular tail. From here the head may use BIER Ping to localize the defect a=
nd switch to using the alternative path through the BIER domain by using di=
fferent transient BFRs.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m=
_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:ari=
al"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Regards</p><p sty=
le=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Fangwei.</p><div><div class=3D"m_32=
97271429344295079zhistoryRow" style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_32972714=
29344295079zwriteHistoryContainer"><div class=3D"m_3297271429344295079contr=
ol-group m_3297271429344295079zhistoryPanel"><div class=3D"m_32972714293442=
95079zhistoryHeader" style=3D"padding:8px;background-color:#f5f6f8"><div><s=
trong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_3297271=
429344295079zreadUserName">ReshadRahman(rrahman) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rrah=
man@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rrahman@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span></div><div=
><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_3297=
271429344295079zreadUserName" style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-h=
u-bier-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=
=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_3297271429344295079zreadUserName" =
style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>bier@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">b=
ier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span><span class=3D"m_3297271429344295079zreadUserNa=
me" style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bfd@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=
=9A</strong><span>2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8808=E6=97=A5 11:56</span></div><di=
v><strong>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_3297271429=
344295079zreadTitle"><strong>Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02</strong></spa=
n></div></div><div class=3D"m_3297271429344295079zhistoryContent"><div><div=
 class=3D"m_3297271429344295079WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt">I just took a quick look at the draft:<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><ol style=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"1" type=3D"1" class=3D"m_3297271=
429344295079list-paddingleft-2"><li><p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt">Section 1, 2<sup>nd</sup> paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">detect unicast failures..=
=E2=80=9D, I believe this =C2=A0should be unidirectional?</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p></li><li><p>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Section 1, 3<sup>rd</sup> p=
aragraph says that active-tail is for further study. So when a tail detects=
 a failure, how will the head be notified?=C2=A0 If the head does not have =
to be notified, what action is taken?<u></u><u></u></span></p></li></ol><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Reshad.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br></p></div></blockq=
uote></div></div>

--000000000000e66b1c057a205d51--


From nobody Wed Nov  7 21:21:04 2018
Return-Path: <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 12:20:43 +0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmWay60qZWifDw9LSEK_ufap64GJ_7YAB+r33DSGPmDx0A@mail.gmail.com>
To: hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn
Cc: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org,  BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
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Apologies for the duplicate.
Now with the corrected BFD WG alias.

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:18 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Reshad,
> thank you for taking the time to review and sharing your comments, much
> appreciated. I'll add to answers by Fangwei, please find them in-line
> tagged GIM>>.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 11:27 AM <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Rahman
>>
>> Thanks for your comments.
>>
>> Plese see inline marked with[hfw].
>>
>>
>> >Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> >I just took a quick look at the draft:
>>
>> >1.Section 1, 2nd paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6detect unicast fa=
ilures..=E2=80=9D, I
>> believe this  should be unidirectional?
>>
>> [hfw] Agree, the BFD multipoint document only defines the unidirectional
>> deteck from header to one or more tails.
>>
> GIM>> Great catch, thank you. Will fix in the next version.
>
>> >2.Section 1, 3rd paragraph says that active-tail is for further study.
>> So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?  If the
>> head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?
>>
>> [hfw] Ok. Actually, we are considering the active-tails solution. It
>>  will be added in the next version.
>>
> GIM>> Our plan is to use BFD for Multipoint Network with Active Tail
> specfication as the base for this mode. Since tails in p2mp BFD are in th=
e
> Demand mode the head only can query all tail and/or the particular tail
> using the Poll sequence (referred as multicast and unicast Poll). Dependi=
ng
> on the type of the failure, the head may recieve or not the BFD control
> message with Final flag set. Absence of the response in combination with
> the content of the Diag field must be used to draw the conclusion on
> liveleness of the path from the head to the particular tail. From here th=
e
> head may use BIER Ping to localize the defect and switch to using the
> alternative path through the BIER domain by using different transient BFR=
s.
>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Fangwei.
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*ReshadRahman(rrahman) <rrahman@cis=
co.com>
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org <draft-=
hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org>;
>> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*bier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>;bfd@=
ietf.org <bfd@ietf.org>;
>> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8808=E6=97=A5 11:56
>> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02*
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I just took a quick look at the draft:
>>
>>    1.
>>
>>    Section 1, 2nd paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6detect unicast fa=
ilures..=E2=80=9D, I
>>    believe this  should be unidirectional?
>>    2.
>>
>>    Section 1, 3rd paragraph says that active-tail is for further study.
>>    So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?  If =
the
>>    head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Reshad.
>>
>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Apologies for the duplicate.<div>Now with the corrected BF=
D WG alias.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On T=
hu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:18 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@g=
mail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Reshad,<div>thank you for taking the time=
 to review and sharing your=C2=A0comments, much appreciated. I&#39;ll add t=
o answers by Fangwei, please find them in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 11:27 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hu=
.fangwei@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_-50264563651111440=
17m_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:=
arial">Hi, Rahman</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thanks f=
or your comments.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Plese se=
e inline marked with[hfw].</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"=
><br></p><p style=3D"line-height:21px;white-space:normal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:15px">&gt;Hi,</span></p><p style=3D"line-height:21px;white-space:no=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size:15px">=C2=A0</span></p><p style=3D"line-heig=
ht:21px;white-space:normal"><span style=3D"font-size:15px">&gt;I just took =
a quick look at the draft:</span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:15px">&gt;=
1.Section 1, 2<sup>nd</sup>=C2=A0paragraph mentions =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6</spa=
n>detect unicast failures..=E2=80=9D, I believe this =C2=A0should be unidir=
ectional?</p><p>[hfw] Agree, the BFD multipoint document only defines the u=
nidirectional deteck from header to one or more tails.</p></div></blockquot=
e><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Great catch, thank you. Will fix in the next version.=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_-502645636511114401=
7m_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p><span style=3D"font-size:15px">&gt;2.=
Section 1, 3<sup>rd</sup>=C2=A0paragraph says that active-tail is for furth=
er study. So when a tail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?=
=C2=A0 If the head does not have to be notified, what action is taken?</spa=
n></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">[hfw] Ok. Actually, we =
are considering the active-tails solution. It =C2=A0will be added in the ne=
xt version.</p></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Our plan is to use BFD f=
or Multipoint Network with Active Tail specfication as the base for this mo=
de. Since tails in p2mp BFD are in the Demand mode the head only can query =
all tail and/or the particular tail using the Poll sequence (referred as mu=
lticast and unicast Poll). Depending on the type of the failure, the head m=
ay recieve or not the BFD control message with Final flag set. Absence of t=
he response in combination with the content of the Diag field must be used =
to draw the conclusion on liveleness of the path from the head to the parti=
cular tail. From here the head may use BIER Ping to localize the defect and=
 switch to using the alternative path through the BIER domain by using diff=
erent transient BFRs.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_-=
5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zcontentRow"><p style=3D"font-size:=
14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:aria=
l">Regards</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Fangwei.</p><di=
v><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zhistoryRow" sty=
le=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079=
zwriteHistoryContainer"><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344=
295079control-group m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zhistoryPane=
l"><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zhistoryHeader"=
 style=3D"padding:8px;background-color:#f5f6f8"><div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=
=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_329=
7271429344295079zreadUserName">ReshadRahman(rrahman) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
rrahman@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rrahman@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span></div>=
<div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_=
-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zreadUserName" style=3D"display:in=
line"><a href=3D"mailto:draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><st=
rong>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_-5026456=
365111144017m_3297271429344295079zreadUserName" style=3D"display:inline"><a=
 href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span=
><span class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297271429344295079zreadUserName" s=
tyle=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">b=
fd@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bfd@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</st=
rong><span>2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8808=E6=97=A5 11:56</span></div><div><stro=
ng>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span class=3D"m_-5026456365111144=
017m_3297271429344295079zreadTitle"><strong>Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-0=
2</strong></span></div></div><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_32972714=
29344295079zhistoryContent"><div><div class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m_3297=
271429344295079WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"=
>I just took a quick look at the draft:<u></u><u></u></span></p><ol style=
=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"1" type=3D"1" class=3D"m_-5026456365111144017m=
_3297271429344295079list-paddingleft-2"><li><p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Section 1, 2<sup>nd</sup> paragraph mentions =E2=80=
=9C=E2=80=A6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">detect unicas=
t failures..=E2=80=9D, I believe this =C2=A0should be unidirectional?</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><=
/li><li><p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Section 1, 3<sup=
>rd</sup> paragraph says that active-tail is for further study. So when a t=
ail detects a failure, how will the head be notified?=C2=A0 If the head doe=
s not have to be notified, what action is taken?<u></u><u></u></span></p></=
li></ol><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Reshad.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br></p></div=
></blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000fd92e3057a206565--


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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn" <hu.fangwei@zte.com.cn>
CC: "draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org" <draft-hu-bier-bfd@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
Thread-Index: AQHUdxbNv+kW2bBAtEqB4REYCklGMKVFrROAgAAOSYD//61fAA==
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 05:22:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Feedback on draft-hu-bier-bfd-02
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From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
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BIERers,

I missed some words on the left bier mic again.
the clear terms of bier tunnel and per flow explicit tracking is very impor=
tant to decouple. think about that how to support CORE network using an IPM=
SI and one of METRO network using BIER, will you force the CORE to use per =
flow per tunnel? just think about that, without any juice. the current bier=
-mvpn is wrong to force a mapping of flow to a vpn label. it is definitely =
crazy to me. we can miss the very obvious decoupling of per tunnel and per =
flow.

don't be trapped into the pros cons 40/60 or 60/40 again. think about that.=
 the very obvious scenario. the very direct feeling. the architecture of de=
 coupling different things. think about that deeply.


--------------------------------------------------
Sent From WeLink
From:Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
To:Xiejingrong,bier@ietf.org,
Date:2018-11-08 11:21:18
Subject:RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.t=
xt

Hi Jingrong,

Please see zzh> below.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:59 AM
> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; bier@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-
> 06.txt
>
> Hi Jeffrey,
>
> Thank you very much for the helpful comments.
> There are some very interesting topic I want to discuss with you BIER men=
.
> See my opinions inline below marked with [XJR].
>
> Jingrong.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 10:07 PM
> To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-
> 06.txt
>
> Hi Jingrong,
>
> Please see my comments below.
>
> A general comment is that this problem is not specific to BIER. Even if i=
t's just
> ingress replication, we'd also need IP lookup if we're not using per-flow=
 labels
> for segmentation points to do label switching. The only difference betwee=
n
> BIER and IR is that IR does not require S-PMSI routes (as the label can b=
e
> carried in auto-triggered Leaf AD routes); If it's P2MP tunnels, we also =
need S-
> PMSI route to advertise per-PMSI labels unless we do IP lookup.
>
> [XJR]: IP lookup for {ingress replication + GTM case} has been described =
in
> RFC7988/RFC7524 ('IP processing' in there), so this draft is BIER specifi=
c case.
> Moreover, this draft is an update of <draft-ietf-bier-mvpn>, which uses L=
abel
> lookup and LIR explicit-tracking for segmented mvpn, and mainly focus on
> BIER-BIER segmented MVPN ( I think).

Zzh> Good that they already talked about it. It's clear that it is not a BI=
ER specific issue (and equally applies to EVPN). Instead of writing a docum=
ents for every tunnel type, we can generalize it (see my summary in the pre=
vious email) - in fact, in this draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented there is real=
ly no BIER specific things (BIER encapsulation/decapsulation is no differen=
t from label push/pop that is used with IR).

>
> Therefore, I don't think this solution should be targeted at BIER. A simp=
le BESS
> document could be written, covering the following generic points:
> - The labels in I-PMSI routes could lead to label switching into next seg=
ment, or
> could lead to IP lookup in a local VRF. This is purely a local decision b=
ased on
> whether you want to do ip lookup or not.
> - The labels in S-PMSI routes (if those routes are sent), if different fr=
om the
> label in a corresponding I-PMSI, lead to label switching into next segmen=
t.
> - Leaf A-D routes trigger corresponding (s/*,g) routes in VRFs, if ip loo=
kup is
> desired/required
> - Upstream PE/ABR uses the label advertised in the matching x-PMSI routes
> (BIER/P2MP) or Leaf AD routes (IR) to send traffic
> [XJR]: Thanks for the remind of more generic points. Maybe we can borrow
> some very useful words from the RFC7988/7524. For example, [The
> procedures for such disaggregation require IP processing on the ingress A=
BRs]
> from RFC7524 is very suitable for BIER too, which need a disaggregation
> (through BIER encapsulation for per-flow) further from a per-tunnel/un-
> optimized BIER tunnel. Also this can make the whole BIER/MLDP/RSVP/IR for
> MVPN/GTM consolidate.
>
>
> As I pointed out before, doing IP lookup is not really better than per-fl=
ow/PMSI
> based label switching with respect to FIB size and forwarding performance=
. To
> do IP lookup you need to maintain (s,g) routes in different VRFs (for
> comparison you only need labels in the default/master instance if you do =
label
> switching). One can argue that this is actually less efficient - you need=
 to first
> do a label lookup to determine the VRF, and then do an IP lookup. Using I=
P
> lookup requires more forwarding state, and more forwarding cycles; the on=
ly
> saving you get is the elimination of control plane S-PMSI routes that dis=
tribute
> per-flow labels (and the corresponding delay). If that is super important=
, sure
> you can do IP lookup but the following text should be updated to point ou=
t
> pros and cons:
> [XJR]: Again thanks for the remind on the emphasis the comparison of IP
> lookup and Label lookup. I think the 'forwarding cycles', 'the FIB size',=
 is the
> significant thing need to be mentioned. And make the 'pros and cons' more
> clear.
> For the 'forwarding state', one example maybe from N to N+1 in number. Fo=
r
> example, in BIER-BIER segmented case, or IPMSI P2MP-BIER segmented case,
> or BIER-IPMSI P2MP segmented case, the IP lookup will need one 'forwardin=
g
> state' of Label (to find the PseudoVRF), and N 'forwarding state' of per-=
flow IP
> (to find the BitString).
> In some other cases, maybe from N to N+M.
> In the worst cases, maybe from N to N+N.

Zzh> By forwarding state I was more referring to the "route -> nexthop" ent=
ries. You need an extra entry for each flow. The Bitstring info is part of =
the "nexthop".

> So again, words from RFC7524 is very suitable for this: "if the ingress a=
rea uses
> wildcard S-PMSI, then the backbone area also SHOULD use wildcard S-PMSI f=
or
> global table multicast, or the ingress ABRs MUST be able to disaggregate =
traffic
> carried over the wildcard S-PMSI onto the backbone area (S,G) or (*,G) S-
> PMSIs."
> So the same is suitable for BIER case: if ingress area use P2MP wildcard =
S-PMSI,
> and egress area use BIER, and the user want to leverage the BIER without
> flooding, then ABRs MUST do IP lookup.

Zzh> That's another example of "generalization": BIER tunnel is no differen=
t from other tunnels.

>
>    In conclusion, the pattern of forwarding packets on segmentation
>    points only by lookup of MPLS label mapped from multicast flow(s) is
>    significantly unnecessary when BIER is introduced.  Instead, doing a
>    per-flow lookup of IP header on segmentation points is more efficient
>    and consolidated.
>
> Comments about some specific text:
>
>    o  Getting a much better multicast join latency by eliminating the
>       round trip interaction of S-PMSI AD routes and Leaf AD routes.
>       Especially, the S-PMSI A-D routes may need a data-driven procedure
>       to trigger, and make the multicast join latency even worse.
>
> The S-PMSI routes could be triggered by leaf A-D routes (section 7.2.2.1 =
RFC
> 7524) instead of data driven.
> Additionally, a way to reduce latency w/o requiring ip lookup is to use I=
-PMSI
> initially for a short period of time.
> [XJR]: We use the word *may* to say this is a possible case. We have
> considered the possibility of C-multicast routes triggered, or any (S,G) =
state
> triggered S-PMSI route.
> Thank you again for the introducing of another case.
> The RFC7988 is also a big help to understand. "Note that joining an
> unadvertised IR P-tunnel is only possible when using the "global table
> multicast" procedures of [RFC7524]."

In this context, the GTM procedures in RFC7524 is basically triggering S-PM=
SI route based on received Leaf route. It applies to BIER as well, and can =
actually be applied to VRF. Yet another case of generalization.

>
> [XJR]: Running BIER on a 'I-PMSI' manner w/o IP lookup is a good topic I =
want
> to discuss.
> I found a word 'compromised' in the Security section of RFC8279. Do we wa=
nt
> to do such a 'compromise' for a BIER deployment ?
> I prefer personally not to use a 'compromised' manner for BIER from the i=
mpl
> side, and I would like to call this an 'S-PMSI only' replication, but unf=
ortunately
> the 'S-PMSI only' has been used by RFC6625 for control-plane.
> I'd like very much to learn more about your opinions from the BIER WG. @A=
LL.

I don't see why this is a concern in this context. If you care about the fo=
llowing:

   If a BFIR is compromised, it may impose a BIER encapsulation with all
   the bits in the BitString set; this would also result in a DoS
   attack.

It is applicable w/ or w/o segmentation.

Jeffrey

>
>    o  Consolidated forwarding procedure of IP lookup for every BIER
>       Overlay functioning routers, such as BFIR, BFER, segmentation
>       point BFR, and segmentation point BFR with BFER function.
>
> This consolidation is not really necessary. Indeed an implementation like=
ly will
> support both label switching and ip lookup, but it does not mean ip looku=
p is
> the preferred way on a segmentation point.
> [XJR]: This consolidation is useful to say that, an IP lookup following a=
n
> upstream VpnLabel lookup is not an *new* requirement of implementation
> (especially in data-plane). I am happy to change the word too.
>
> Jeffrey
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Xiejingrong
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 9:58 PM
> > To: bier@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-
> > segmented-06.txt
> >
> > Hi BIER WG,
> >
> > This draft was updated greatly in the past days, and I feel it is clear=
 now.
> > It is a little long, so a discussion on mic may be not enough if it is
> > not read through.
> > Welcome very much for your feedback/inputs on this on the maillist.
> > Thank you very much.
> >
> > My log about this draft:
> > ---- the term 'BIER tunnel', 'P2MP tunnel' and 'BGP-MVPN FEC'.
> > ---- tunnel sticking can be between any two of mLDP/RSVP-TE/IR/BIER.
> > ---- e2e sticked tunnel can be bound to one or many 'BGP-MVPN FEC(s)'
> > from some IngressPE and VRF, and Ingress PE can decide to use which
> > sticked tunnel for which flow(s).
> > ---- the per-tunnel sticking of upstream tunnel and downstream
> > tunnels, and the per-flow IP lookup for downstream BIER encapsulation
> > (BitString), are separated/decoupled.
> >
> > Jingrong
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > A new version of I-D, draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Jingrong Xie and posted to the IETF
> > repository.
> >
> > Name:               draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented
> > Revision:   06
> > Title:              Segmented MVPN Using IP Lookup for BIER
> > Document date:      2018-10-22
> > Group:              Individual Submission
> > Pages:              17
> > URL:            https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented-2D06.txt&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3D_u1HyrykoE799w1
> > pjHLMlVFl39BqS3QcSI2ifj15WEM&e=3D
> > Status:         https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented_&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DPEN0sOb4ROpfTJ9-
> > rRPuBOViEjS2v3mCvXkttYALG4o&e=3D
> > Htmlized:       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-2Dsegmented-
> > 2D06&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DlCVRhdEuZwZXblwJ
> > mBdPKkH4GIQM4PDVRRuIiKw4Ju8&e=3D
> > Htmlized:       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DgbhCl0sGTUhaL2qG
> > 9dKQnIqdjbHDWbhqrxfYGwitON4&e=3D
> > Diff:           https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented-2D06&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DmiQxM2C8rvh6wm
> > qVNaxpqPO6yjgfVTjFmfkPZdT4-go&e=3D
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This document specifies an alternative of the control plane and data
> >    plane procedures that allow segmented MVPN using the more efficient
> >    LIR-pF explicit-tracking when BIER is used as the upstream or
> >    downstream or both segments.  It requires a segmentation point BFR
> >    doing an IP header lookup, which is common for the forwarding
> >    procedure on BFER, or the forwarding procedure on ABR with local VPN
> >    CEs connected.  This document updates [I-D.ietf-bier-mvpn].
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> >
> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf
> > h0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DAdJYxmU8rM5KwV
> > pemxMtSZVaPU4ryXOePtnaqFuO7dw&e=3D

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<div><br>
BIERers,<br>
<br>
I missed some words on the left bier mic again.<br>
the clear terms of bier tunnel and per flow explicit tracking is very impor=
tant to decouple. think about that how to support CORE network using an IPM=
SI and one of METRO network using BIER, will you force the CORE to use per =
flow per tunnel? just think about
 that, without any juice. the current bier-mvpn is wrong to force a mapping=
 of flow to a vpn label. it is definitely crazy to me. we can miss the very=
 obvious decoupling of per tunnel and per flow.<br>
<br>
don't be trapped into the pros cons 40/60 or 60/40 again. think about that.=
 the very obvious scenario. the very direct feeling. the architecture of de=
 coupling different things. think about that deeply.
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>--------------------------------------------------<br>
Sent From WeLink</div>
<div name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B=
5C4DF; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang</di=
v>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>Xiejingrong,bier@ietf.org,</d=
iv>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2018-11-08 11:21:18</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>RE: New Version Notifica=
tion for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">Hi Jingrong,<br>
<br>
Please see zzh&gt; below.<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Xiejingrong &lt;xiejingrong@huawei.com&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:59 AM<br>
&gt; To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;zzhang@juniper.net&gt;; bier@ietf.org<=
br>
&gt; Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmente=
d-<br>
&gt; 06.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Jeffrey,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thank you very much for the helpful comments.<br>
&gt; There are some very interesting topic I want to discuss with you BIER =
men.<br>
&gt; See my opinions inline below marked with [XJR].<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jingrong.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net">m=
ailto:zzhang@juniper.net</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 10:07 PM<br>
&gt; To: Xiejingrong &lt;xiejingrong@huawei.com&gt;; bier@ietf.org<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmente=
d-<br>
&gt; 06.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Jingrong,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please see my comments below.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A general comment is that this problem is not specific to BIER. Even i=
f it's just<br>
&gt; ingress replication, we'd also need IP lookup if we're not using per-f=
low labels<br>
&gt; for segmentation points to do label switching. The only difference bet=
ween<br>
&gt; BIER and IR is that IR does not require S-PMSI routes (as the label ca=
n be<br>
&gt; carried in auto-triggered Leaf AD routes); If it's P2MP tunnels, we al=
so need S-<br>
&gt; PMSI route to advertise per-PMSI labels unless we do IP lookup.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [XJR]: IP lookup for {ingress replication &#43; GTM case} has been des=
cribed in<br>
&gt; RFC7988/RFC7524 ('IP processing' in there), so this draft is BIER spec=
ific case.<br>
&gt; Moreover, this draft is an update of &lt;draft-ietf-bier-mvpn&gt;, whi=
ch uses Label<br>
&gt; lookup and LIR explicit-tracking for segmented mvpn, and mainly focus =
on<br>
&gt; BIER-BIER segmented MVPN ( I think).<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; Good that they already talked about it. It's clear that it is not a=
 BIER specific issue (and equally applies to EVPN). Instead of writing a do=
cuments for every tunnel type, we can generalize it (see my summary in the =
previous email) - in fact, in this
 draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented there is really no BIER specific things (BIE=
R encapsulation/decapsulation is no different from label push/pop that is u=
sed with IR).<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Therefore, I don't think this solution should be targeted at BIER. A s=
imple BESS<br>
&gt; document could be written, covering the following generic points:<br>
&gt; - The labels in I-PMSI routes could lead to label switching into next =
segment, or<br>
&gt; could lead to IP lookup in a local VRF. This is purely a local decisio=
n based on<br>
&gt; whether you want to do ip lookup or not.<br>
&gt; - The labels in S-PMSI routes (if those routes are sent), if different=
 from the<br>
&gt; label in a corresponding I-PMSI, lead to label switching into next seg=
ment.<br>
&gt; - Leaf A-D routes trigger corresponding (s/*,g) routes in VRFs, if ip =
lookup is<br>
&gt; desired/required<br>
&gt; - Upstream PE/ABR uses the label advertised in the matching x-PMSI rou=
tes<br>
&gt; (BIER/P2MP) or Leaf AD routes (IR) to send traffic<br>
&gt; [XJR]: Thanks for the remind of more generic points. Maybe we can borr=
ow<br>
&gt; some very useful words from the RFC7988/7524. For example, [The<br>
&gt; procedures for such disaggregation require IP processing on the ingres=
s ABRs]<br>
&gt; from RFC7524 is very suitable for BIER too, which need a disaggregatio=
n<br>
&gt; (through BIER encapsulation for per-flow) further from a per-tunnel/un=
-<br>
&gt; optimized BIER tunnel. Also this can make the whole BIER/MLDP/RSVP/IR =
for<br>
&gt; MVPN/GTM consolidate.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As I pointed out before, doing IP lookup is not really better than per=
-flow/PMSI<br>
&gt; based label switching with respect to FIB size and forwarding performa=
nce. To<br>
&gt; do IP lookup you need to maintain (s,g) routes in different VRFs (for<=
br>
&gt; comparison you only need labels in the default/master instance if you =
do label<br>
&gt; switching). One can argue that this is actually less efficient - you n=
eed to first<br>
&gt; do a label lookup to determine the VRF, and then do an IP lookup. Usin=
g IP<br>
&gt; lookup requires more forwarding state, and more forwarding cycles; the=
 only<br>
&gt; saving you get is the elimination of control plane S-PMSI routes that =
distribute<br>
&gt; per-flow labels (and the corresponding delay). If that is super import=
ant, sure<br>
&gt; you can do IP lookup but the following text should be updated to point=
 out<br>
&gt; pros and cons:<br>
&gt; [XJR]: Again thanks for the remind on the emphasis the comparison of I=
P<br>
&gt; lookup and Label lookup. I think the 'forwarding cycles', 'the FIB siz=
e', is the<br>
&gt; significant thing need to be mentioned. And make the 'pros and cons' m=
ore<br>
&gt; clear.<br>
&gt; For the 'forwarding state', one example maybe from N to N&#43;1 in num=
ber. For<br>
&gt; example, in BIER-BIER segmented case, or IPMSI P2MP-BIER segmented cas=
e,<br>
&gt; or BIER-IPMSI P2MP segmented case, the IP lookup will need one 'forwar=
ding<br>
&gt; state' of Label (to find the PseudoVRF), and N 'forwarding state' of p=
er-flow IP<br>
&gt; (to find the BitString).<br>
&gt; In some other cases, maybe from N to N&#43;M.<br>
&gt; In the worst cases, maybe from N to N&#43;N.<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; By forwarding state I was more referring to the &quot;route -&gt; n=
exthop&quot; entries. You need an extra entry for each flow. The Bitstring =
info is part of the &quot;nexthop&quot;.<br>
<br>
&gt; So again, words from RFC7524 is very suitable for this: &quot;if the i=
ngress area uses<br>
&gt; wildcard S-PMSI, then the backbone area also SHOULD use wildcard S-PMS=
I for<br>
&gt; global table multicast, or the ingress ABRs MUST be able to disaggrega=
te traffic<br>
&gt; carried over the wildcard S-PMSI onto the backbone area (S,G) or (*,G)=
 S-<br>
&gt; PMSIs.&quot;<br>
&gt; So the same is suitable for BIER case: if ingress area use P2MP wildca=
rd S-PMSI,<br>
&gt; and egress area use BIER, and the user want to leverage the BIER witho=
ut<br>
&gt; flooding, then ABRs MUST do IP lookup.<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; That's another example of &quot;generalization&quot;: BIER tunnel i=
s no different from other tunnels.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In conclusion, the pattern of forwarding packets on =
segmentation<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; points only by lookup of MPLS label mapped from mult=
icast flow(s) is<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; significantly unnecessary when BIER is introduced.&n=
bsp; Instead, doing a<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; per-flow lookup of IP header on segmentation points =
is more efficient<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and consolidated.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Comments about some specific text:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Getting a much better multicast join latency=
 by eliminating the<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; round trip interaction of S-PMSI A=
D routes and Leaf AD routes.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Especially, the S-PMSI A-D routes =
may need a data-driven procedure<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to trigger, and make the multicast=
 join latency even worse.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The S-PMSI routes could be triggered by leaf A-D routes (section 7.2.2=
.1 RFC<br>
&gt; 7524) instead of data driven.<br>
&gt; Additionally, a way to reduce latency w/o requiring ip lookup is to us=
e I-PMSI<br>
&gt; initially for a short period of time.<br>
&gt; [XJR]: We use the word *may* to say this is a possible case. We have<b=
r>
&gt; considered the possibility of C-multicast routes triggered, or any (S,=
G) state<br>
&gt; triggered S-PMSI route.<br>
&gt; Thank you again for the introducing of another case.<br>
&gt; The RFC7988 is also a big help to understand. &quot;Note that joining =
an<br>
&gt; unadvertised IR P-tunnel is only possible when using the &quot;global =
table<br>
&gt; multicast&quot; procedures of [RFC7524].&quot;<br>
<br>
In this context, the GTM procedures in RFC7524 is basically triggering S-PM=
SI route based on received Leaf route. It applies to BIER as well, and can =
actually be applied to VRF. Yet another case of generalization.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [XJR]: Running BIER on a 'I-PMSI' manner w/o IP lookup is a good topic=
 I want<br>
&gt; to discuss.<br>
&gt; I found a word 'compromised' in the Security section of RFC8279. Do we=
 want<br>
&gt; to do such a 'compromise' for a BIER deployment ?<br>
&gt; I prefer personally not to use a 'compromised' manner for BIER from th=
e impl<br>
&gt; side, and I would like to call this an 'S-PMSI only' replication, but =
unfortunately<br>
&gt; the 'S-PMSI only' has been used by RFC6625 for control-plane.<br>
&gt; I'd like very much to learn more about your opinions from the BIER WG.=
 @ALL.<br>
<br>
I don't see why this is a concern in this context. If you care about the fo=
llowing:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; If a BFIR is compromised, it may impose a BIER encapsulation w=
ith all<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the bits in the BitString set; this would also result in a DoS=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; attack.<br>
<br>
It is applicable w/ or w/o segmentation.<br>
<br>
Jeffrey<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Consolidated forwarding procedure of IP look=
up for every BIER<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Overlay functioning routers, such =
as BFIR, BFER, segmentation<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; point BFR, and segmentation point =
BFR with BFER function.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This consolidation is not really necessary. Indeed an implementation l=
ikely will<br>
&gt; support both label switching and ip lookup, but it does not mean ip lo=
okup is<br>
&gt; the preferred way on a segmentation point.<br>
&gt; [XJR]: This consolidation is useful to say that, an IP lookup followin=
g an<br>
&gt; upstream VpnLabel lookup is not an *new* requirement of implementation=
<br>
&gt; (especially in data-plane). I am happy to change the word too.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jeffrey<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: BIER &lt;bier-bounces@ietf.org&gt; On Behalf Of Xiejingrong=
<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 9:58 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: bier@ietf.org<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-m=
vpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; segmented-06.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi BIER WG,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This draft was updated greatly in the past days, and I feel it is=
 clear now.<br>
&gt; &gt; It is a little long, so a discussion on mic may be not enough if =
it is<br>
&gt; &gt; not read through.<br>
&gt; &gt; Welcome very much for your feedback/inputs on this on the maillis=
t.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thank you very much.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; My log about this draft:<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- the term 'BIER tunnel', 'P2MP tunnel' and 'BGP-MVPN FEC'.<br=
>
&gt; &gt; ---- tunnel sticking can be between any two of mLDP/RSVP-TE/IR/BI=
ER.<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- e2e sticked tunnel can be bound to one or many 'BGP-MVPN FEC=
(s)'<br>
&gt; &gt; from some IngressPE and VRF, and Ingress PE can decide to use whi=
ch<br>
&gt; &gt; sticked tunnel for which flow(s).<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- the per-tunnel sticking of upstream tunnel and downstream<br=
>
&gt; &gt; tunnels, and the per-flow IP lookup for downstream BIER encapsula=
tion<br>
&gt; &gt; (BitString), are separated/decoupled.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Jingrong<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; A new version of I-D, draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt<br>
&gt; &gt; has been successfully submitted by Jingrong Xie and posted to the=
 IETF<br>
&gt; &gt; repository.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented<br>
&gt; &gt; Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp; 06<br>
&gt; &gt; Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Segmented MVPN Using IP Lookup for BIER<br>
&gt; &gt; Document date:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2018-10-22<br>
&gt; &gt; Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Submission<br>
&gt; &gt; Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 17<br>
&gt; &gt; URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented-2D06.txt&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0U=
jBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3D_u1HyrykoE799w=
1<br>
&gt; &gt; pjHLMlVFl39BqS3QcSI2ifj15WEM&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<=
br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DPEN0sOb4ROpfTJ=
9-<br>
&gt; &gt; rRPuBOViEjS2v3mCvXkttYALG4o&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-2Dsegmented-<br=
>
&gt; &gt; 2D06&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DlCVRhdEuZwZXbl=
wJ<br>
&gt; &gt; mBdPKkH4GIQM4PDVRRuIiKw4Ju8&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DgbhCl0sGTUhaL2=
qG<br>
&gt; &gt; 9dKQnIqdjbHDWbhqrxfYGwitON4&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Diff:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented-2D06&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DmiQxM2C8rvh6wm=
<br>
&gt; &gt; qVNaxpqPO6yjgfVTjFmfkPZdT4-go&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This document specifies an alternative of the c=
ontrol plane and data<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; plane procedures that allow segmented MVPN usin=
g the more efficient<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; LIR-pF explicit-tracking when BIER is used as t=
he upstream or<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; downstream or both segments.&nbsp; It requires =
a segmentation point BFR<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; doing an IP header lookup, which is common for =
the forwarding<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; procedure on BFER, or the forwarding procedure =
on ABR with local VPN<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CEs connected.&nbsp; This document updates [I-D=
.ietf-bier-mvpn].<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; BIER@ietf.org<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63=
rsuhr6Scbf<br>
&gt; &gt; h0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DAdJYxmU8rM5KwV=
<br>
&gt; &gt; pemxMtSZVaPU4ryXOePtnaqFuO7dw&amp;e=3D<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

--_000_0E219EAD246A4B88B434F6943BD0D638_--


From nobody Thu Nov  8 20:38:53 2018
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
CC: "jeffant.ietf@gmail.com" <jeffant.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt
Thread-Index: AQHUapjSJyH+Ma5L6Umvv8su1II2Q6UtmrSAgAEZHfCAA5jPYIAS2SmAgAC3RmeAAReB8A==
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 04:38:36 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/GDpYpdcXUpwsuMNZwuFxgGkSJPk>
Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt
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Hi Jingrong,

Whether IP lookup is desired or not at the segmentation point can be argued=
 and is up to the operator; the real issue of this document is that the pro=
blem and solution are not BIER specific so it should belong to BESS.

I've already given a few points on how to generalize it. I can help further=
 by putting up a skeleton draft based on those points if you want.

Jeffrey

From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 6:50 AM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; bier@ietf.org
Cc: jeffant.ietf@gmail.com
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.=
txt


BIERers,

I missed some words on the left bier mic again.
the clear terms of bier tunnel and per flow explicit tracking is very impor=
tant to decouple. think about that how to support CORE network using an IPM=
SI and one of METRO network using BIER, will you force the CORE to use per =
flow per tunnel? just think about that, without any juice. the current bier=
-mvpn is wrong to force a mapping of flow to a vpn label. it is definitely =
crazy to me. we can miss the very obvious decoupling of per tunnel and per =
flow.

don't be trapped into the pros cons 40/60 or 60/40 again. think about that.=
 the very obvious scenario. the very direct feeling. the architecture of de=
 coupling different things. think about that deeply.

--------------------------------------------------
Sent From WeLink
From:Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
To:Xiejingrong,bier@ietf.org,
Date:2018-11-08 11:21:18
Subject:RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.t=
xt

Hi Jingrong,

Please see zzh> below.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com<mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com>>
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:59 AM
> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net<mailto:zzhang@juniper.net=
>>; bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-
> 06.txt
>
> Hi Jeffrey,
>
> Thank you very much for the helpful comments.
> There are some very interesting topic I want to discuss with you BIER men=
.
> See my opinions inline below marked with [XJR].
>
> Jingrong.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 10:07 PM
> To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com<mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com>>; =
bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-
> 06.txt
>
> Hi Jingrong,
>
> Please see my comments below.
>
> A general comment is that this problem is not specific to BIER. Even if i=
t's just
> ingress replication, we'd also need IP lookup if we're not using per-flow=
 labels
> for segmentation points to do label switching. The only difference betwee=
n
> BIER and IR is that IR does not require S-PMSI routes (as the label can b=
e
> carried in auto-triggered Leaf AD routes); If it's P2MP tunnels, we also =
need S-
> PMSI route to advertise per-PMSI labels unless we do IP lookup.
>
> [XJR]: IP lookup for {ingress replication + GTM case} has been described =
in
> RFC7988/RFC7524 ('IP processing' in there), so this draft is BIER specifi=
c case.
> Moreover, this draft is an update of <draft-ietf-bier-mvpn>, which uses L=
abel
> lookup and LIR explicit-tracking for segmented mvpn, and mainly focus on
> BIER-BIER segmented MVPN ( I think).

Zzh> Good that they already talked about it. It's clear that it is not a BI=
ER specific issue (and equally applies to EVPN). Instead of writing a docum=
ents for every tunnel type, we can generalize it (see my summary in the pre=
vious email) - in fact, in this draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented there is real=
ly no BIER specific things (BIER encapsulation/decapsulation is no differen=
t from label push/pop that is used with IR).

>
> Therefore, I don't think this solution should be targeted at BIER. A simp=
le BESS
> document could be written, covering the following generic points:
> - The labels in I-PMSI routes could lead to label switching into next seg=
ment, or
> could lead to IP lookup in a local VRF. This is purely a local decision b=
ased on
> whether you want to do ip lookup or not.
> - The labels in S-PMSI routes (if those routes are sent), if different fr=
om the
> label in a corresponding I-PMSI, lead to label switching into next segmen=
t.
> - Leaf A-D routes trigger corresponding (s/*,g) routes in VRFs, if ip loo=
kup is
> desired/required
> - Upstream PE/ABR uses the label advertised in the matching x-PMSI routes
> (BIER/P2MP) or Leaf AD routes (IR) to send traffic
> [XJR]: Thanks for the remind of more generic points. Maybe we can borrow
> some very useful words from the RFC7988/7524. For example, [The
> procedures for such disaggregation require IP processing on the ingress A=
BRs]
> from RFC7524 is very suitable for BIER too, which need a disaggregation
> (through BIER encapsulation for per-flow) further from a per-tunnel/un-
> optimized BIER tunnel. Also this can make the whole BIER/MLDP/RSVP/IR for
> MVPN/GTM consolidate.
>
>
> As I pointed out before, doing IP lookup is not really better than per-fl=
ow/PMSI
> based label switching with respect to FIB size and forwarding performance=
. To
> do IP lookup you need to maintain (s,g) routes in different VRFs (for
> comparison you only need labels in the default/master instance if you do =
label
> switching). One can argue that this is actually less efficient - you need=
 to first
> do a label lookup to determine the VRF, and then do an IP lookup. Using I=
P
> lookup requires more forwarding state, and more forwarding cycles; the on=
ly
> saving you get is the elimination of control plane S-PMSI routes that dis=
tribute
> per-flow labels (and the corresponding delay). If that is super important=
, sure
> you can do IP lookup but the following text should be updated to point ou=
t
> pros and cons:
> [XJR]: Again thanks for the remind on the emphasis the comparison of IP
> lookup and Label lookup. I think the 'forwarding cycles', 'the FIB size',=
 is the
> significant thing need to be mentioned. And make the 'pros and cons' more
> clear.
> For the 'forwarding state', one example maybe from N to N+1 in number. Fo=
r
> example, in BIER-BIER segmented case, or IPMSI P2MP-BIER segmented case,
> or BIER-IPMSI P2MP segmented case, the IP lookup will need one 'forwardin=
g
> state' of Label (to find the PseudoVRF), and N 'forwarding state' of per-=
flow IP
> (to find the BitString).
> In some other cases, maybe from N to N+M.
> In the worst cases, maybe from N to N+N.

Zzh> By forwarding state I was more referring to the "route -> nexthop" ent=
ries. You need an extra entry for each flow. The Bitstring info is part of =
the "nexthop".

> So again, words from RFC7524 is very suitable for this: "if the ingress a=
rea uses
> wildcard S-PMSI, then the backbone area also SHOULD use wildcard S-PMSI f=
or
> global table multicast, or the ingress ABRs MUST be able to disaggregate =
traffic
> carried over the wildcard S-PMSI onto the backbone area (S,G) or (*,G) S-
> PMSIs."
> So the same is suitable for BIER case: if ingress area use P2MP wildcard =
S-PMSI,
> and egress area use BIER, and the user want to leverage the BIER without
> flooding, then ABRs MUST do IP lookup.

Zzh> That's another example of "generalization": BIER tunnel is no differen=
t from other tunnels.

>
>    In conclusion, the pattern of forwarding packets on segmentation
>    points only by lookup of MPLS label mapped from multicast flow(s) is
>    significantly unnecessary when BIER is introduced.  Instead, doing a
>    per-flow lookup of IP header on segmentation points is more efficient
>    and consolidated.
>
> Comments about some specific text:
>
>    o  Getting a much better multicast join latency by eliminating the
>       round trip interaction of S-PMSI AD routes and Leaf AD routes.
>       Especially, the S-PMSI A-D routes may need a data-driven procedure
>       to trigger, and make the multicast join latency even worse.
>
> The S-PMSI routes could be triggered by leaf A-D routes (section 7.2.2.1 =
RFC
> 7524) instead of data driven.
> Additionally, a way to reduce latency w/o requiring ip lookup is to use I=
-PMSI
> initially for a short period of time.
> [XJR]: We use the word *may* to say this is a possible case. We have
> considered the possibility of C-multicast routes triggered, or any (S,G) =
state
> triggered S-PMSI route.
> Thank you again for the introducing of another case.
> The RFC7988 is also a big help to understand. "Note that joining an
> unadvertised IR P-tunnel is only possible when using the "global table
> multicast" procedures of [RFC7524]."

In this context, the GTM procedures in RFC7524 is basically triggering S-PM=
SI route based on received Leaf route. It applies to BIER as well, and can =
actually be applied to VRF. Yet another case of generalization.

>
> [XJR]: Running BIER on a 'I-PMSI' manner w/o IP lookup is a good topic I =
want
> to discuss.
> I found a word 'compromised' in the Security section of RFC8279. Do we wa=
nt
> to do such a 'compromise' for a BIER deployment ?
> I prefer personally not to use a 'compromised' manner for BIER from the i=
mpl
> side, and I would like to call this an 'S-PMSI only' replication, but unf=
ortunately
> the 'S-PMSI only' has been used by RFC6625 for control-plane.
> I'd like very much to learn more about your opinions from the BIER WG. @A=
LL.

I don't see why this is a concern in this context. If you care about the fo=
llowing:

   If a BFIR is compromised, it may impose a BIER encapsulation with all
   the bits in the BitString set; this would also result in a DoS
   attack.

It is applicable w/ or w/o segmentation.

Jeffrey

>
>    o  Consolidated forwarding procedure of IP lookup for every BIER
>       Overlay functioning routers, such as BFIR, BFER, segmentation
>       point BFR, and segmentation point BFR with BFER function.
>
> This consolidation is not really necessary. Indeed an implementation like=
ly will
> support both label switching and ip lookup, but it does not mean ip looku=
p is
> the preferred way on a segmentation point.
> [XJR]: This consolidation is useful to say that, an IP lookup following a=
n
> upstream VpnLabel lookup is not an *new* requirement of implementation
> (especially in data-plane). I am happy to change the word too.
>
> Jeffrey
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org>> On Beh=
alf Of Xiejingrong
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 9:58 PM
> > To: bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-
> > segmented-06.txt
> >
> > Hi BIER WG,
> >
> > This draft was updated greatly in the past days, and I feel it is clear=
 now.
> > It is a little long, so a discussion on mic may be not enough if it is
> > not read through.
> > Welcome very much for your feedback/inputs on this on the maillist.
> > Thank you very much.
> >
> > My log about this draft:
> > ---- the term 'BIER tunnel', 'P2MP tunnel' and 'BGP-MVPN FEC'.
> > ---- tunnel sticking can be between any two of mLDP/RSVP-TE/IR/BIER.
> > ---- e2e sticked tunnel can be bound to one or many 'BGP-MVPN FEC(s)'
> > from some IngressPE and VRF, and Ingress PE can decide to use which
> > sticked tunnel for which flow(s).
> > ---- the per-tunnel sticking of upstream tunnel and downstream
> > tunnels, and the per-flow IP lookup for downstream BIER encapsulation
> > (BitString), are separated/decoupled.
> >
> > Jingrong
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > A new version of I-D, draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Jingrong Xie and posted to the IETF
> > repository.
> >
> > Name:               draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented
> > Revision:   06
> > Title:              Segmented MVPN Using IP Lookup for BIER
> > Document date:      2018-10-22
> > Group:              Individual Submission
> > Pages:              17
> > URL:            https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented-2D06.txt&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
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> > Status:         https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented_&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DPEN0sOb4ROpfTJ9-
> > rRPuBOViEjS2v3mCvXkttYALG4o&e=3D
> > Htmlized:       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-2Dsegmented-
> > 2D06&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
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> > Htmlized:       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DgbhCl0sGTUhaL2qG
> > 9dKQnIqdjbHDWbhqrxfYGwitON4&e=3D
> > Diff:           https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented-2D06&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DmiQxM2C8rvh6wm
> > qVNaxpqPO6yjgfVTjFmfkPZdT4-go&e=3D
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This document specifies an alternative of the control plane and data
> >    plane procedures that allow segmented MVPN using the more efficient
> >    LIR-pF explicit-tracking when BIER is used as the upstream or
> >    downstream or both segments.  It requires a segmentation point BFR
> >    doing an IP header lookup, which is common for the forwarding
> >    procedure on BFER, or the forwarding procedure on ABR with local VPN
> >    CEs connected.  This document updates [I-D.ietf-bier-mvpn].
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org<mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> >
> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf
> > h0UjBXeMK-
> >
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> > pemxMtSZVaPU4ryXOePtnaqFuO7dw&e=3D

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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
henUsed=3D"true" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"heading 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"9" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"35" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"table of figures"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"annotation reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Number 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"10" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"T=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Closing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Signature"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"1" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Continue"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"11" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"S=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"22" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"S=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"20" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"E=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"E-mail Signature"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Top of Form"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"Table Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" Name=3D"Placeholder Te=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"1" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"No=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1"/=
>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2"/=
>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading"/=
>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" Name=3D"Revision"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"34" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"L=
ist Paragraph"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"29" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Q=
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"tab-interval:.=
5in">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
<span class=3D"SpellE">Jingrong</span>,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;;color:#1F497D">Whether IP lookup is desired or not at the segmentatio=
n point can be argued and is up to the operator; the real
 issue of this document is that the problem and solution are not BIER speci=
fic so it should belong to BESS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;ve already given a few points on how to genera=
lize it. I can help further by putting up a skeleton draft based
 on those points if you want.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;;color:#1F497D">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"> X=
iejingrong
 &lt;xiejingrong@huawei.com&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 8, 2018 6:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;zzhang@juniper.net&gt;; bier@ietf.or=
g<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jeffant.ietf@gmail.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmen=
ted-06.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-fa=
reast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><br>
BIERers,<br>
<br>
I missed some words on the left bier mic again.<br>
the clear terms of bier tunnel and per flow explicit tracking is very impor=
tant to decouple. think about that how to support CORE network using an IPM=
SI and one of METRO network using BIER, will you force the CORE to use per =
flow per tunnel? just think about
 that, without any juice. the current bier-mvpn is wrong to force a mapping=
 of flow to a vpn label. it is definitely crazy to me. we can miss the very=
 obvious decoupling of per tunnel and per flow.<br>
<br>
don't be trapped into the pros cons 40/60 or 60/40 again. think about that.=
 the very obvious scenario. the very direct feeling. the architecture of de=
 coupling different things. think about that deeply.
<br style=3D"mso-special-character:line-break">
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style=3D"mso-special-character:line-bre=
ak">
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;">--------------------------------------------------<br>
Sent From WeLink<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;mso-border-top-alt=
:solid #B5C4DF .75pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in" name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Backgro=
und-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-outline-level:1;word-break:break-all"><=
b><span style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">From:=
</span></b><span style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b><span style=3D"mso=
-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">To:</span></b><span style=
=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Xiejingrong,bier@i=
etf.org,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b><span style=3D"mso=
-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Date:</span></b><span sty=
le=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">2018-11-08 11:21=
:18<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b><span style=3D"mso=
-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Subject:</span></b><span =
style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">RE: New Versi=
on Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;mso-fareast-font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Hi Jingrong,<br>
<br>
Please see zzh&gt; below.<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Xiejingrong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com">xiejin=
grong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:59 AM<br>
&gt; To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net">=
zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org">bier@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmente=
d-<br>
&gt; 06.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Jeffrey,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thank you very much for the helpful comments.<br>
&gt; There are some very interesting topic I want to discuss with you BIER =
men.<br>
&gt; See my opinions inline below marked with [XJR].<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jingrong.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net">m=
ailto:zzhang@juniper.net</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 10:07 PM<br>
&gt; To: Xiejingrong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com">xiejingr=
ong@huawei.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org">bier@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmente=
d-<br>
&gt; 06.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Jingrong,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please see my comments below.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A general comment is that this problem is not specific to BIER. Even i=
f it's just<br>
&gt; ingress replication, we'd also need IP lookup if we're not using per-f=
low labels<br>
&gt; for segmentation points to do label switching. The only difference bet=
ween<br>
&gt; BIER and IR is that IR does not require S-PMSI routes (as the label ca=
n be<br>
&gt; carried in auto-triggered Leaf AD routes); If it's P2MP tunnels, we al=
so need S-<br>
&gt; PMSI route to advertise per-PMSI labels unless we do IP lookup.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [XJR]: IP lookup for {ingress replication &#43; GTM case} has been des=
cribed in<br>
&gt; RFC7988/RFC7524 ('IP processing' in there), so this draft is BIER spec=
ific case.<br>
&gt; Moreover, this draft is an update of &lt;draft-ietf-bier-mvpn&gt;, whi=
ch uses Label<br>
&gt; lookup and LIR explicit-tracking for segmented mvpn, and mainly focus =
on<br>
&gt; BIER-BIER segmented MVPN ( I think).<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; Good that they already talked about it. It's clear that it is not a=
 BIER specific issue (and equally applies to EVPN). Instead of writing a do=
cuments for every tunnel type, we can generalize it (see my summary in the =
previous email) - in fact, in this
 draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented there is really no BIER specific things (BIE=
R encapsulation/decapsulation is no different from label push/pop that is u=
sed with IR).<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Therefore, I don't think this solution should be targeted at BIER. A s=
imple BESS<br>
&gt; document could be written, covering the following generic points:<br>
&gt; - The labels in I-PMSI routes could lead to label switching into next =
segment, or<br>
&gt; could lead to IP lookup in a local VRF. This is purely a local decisio=
n based on<br>
&gt; whether you want to do ip lookup or not.<br>
&gt; - The labels in S-PMSI routes (if those routes are sent), if different=
 from the<br>
&gt; label in a corresponding I-PMSI, lead to label switching into next seg=
ment.<br>
&gt; - Leaf A-D routes trigger corresponding (s/*,g) routes in VRFs, if ip =
lookup is<br>
&gt; desired/required<br>
&gt; - Upstream PE/ABR uses the label advertised in the matching x-PMSI rou=
tes<br>
&gt; (BIER/P2MP) or Leaf AD routes (IR) to send traffic<br>
&gt; [XJR]: Thanks for the remind of more generic points. Maybe we can borr=
ow<br>
&gt; some very useful words from the RFC7988/7524. For example, [The<br>
&gt; procedures for such disaggregation require IP processing on the ingres=
s ABRs]<br>
&gt; from RFC7524 is very suitable for BIER too, which need a disaggregatio=
n<br>
&gt; (through BIER encapsulation for per-flow) further from a per-tunnel/un=
-<br>
&gt; optimized BIER tunnel. Also this can make the whole BIER/MLDP/RSVP/IR =
for<br>
&gt; MVPN/GTM consolidate.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As I pointed out before, doing IP lookup is not really better than per=
-flow/PMSI<br>
&gt; based label switching with respect to FIB size and forwarding performa=
nce. To<br>
&gt; do IP lookup you need to maintain (s,g) routes in different VRFs (for<=
br>
&gt; comparison you only need labels in the default/master instance if you =
do label<br>
&gt; switching). One can argue that this is actually less efficient - you n=
eed to first<br>
&gt; do a label lookup to determine the VRF, and then do an IP lookup. Usin=
g IP<br>
&gt; lookup requires more forwarding state, and more forwarding cycles; the=
 only<br>
&gt; saving you get is the elimination of control plane S-PMSI routes that =
distribute<br>
&gt; per-flow labels (and the corresponding delay). If that is super import=
ant, sure<br>
&gt; you can do IP lookup but the following text should be updated to point=
 out<br>
&gt; pros and cons:<br>
&gt; [XJR]: Again thanks for the remind on the emphasis the comparison of I=
P<br>
&gt; lookup and Label lookup. I think the 'forwarding cycles', 'the FIB siz=
e', is the<br>
&gt; significant thing need to be mentioned. And make the 'pros and cons' m=
ore<br>
&gt; clear.<br>
&gt; For the 'forwarding state', one example maybe from N to N&#43;1 in num=
ber. For<br>
&gt; example, in BIER-BIER segmented case, or IPMSI P2MP-BIER segmented cas=
e,<br>
&gt; or BIER-IPMSI P2MP segmented case, the IP lookup will need one 'forwar=
ding<br>
&gt; state' of Label (to find the PseudoVRF), and N 'forwarding state' of p=
er-flow IP<br>
&gt; (to find the BitString).<br>
&gt; In some other cases, maybe from N to N&#43;M.<br>
&gt; In the worst cases, maybe from N to N&#43;N.<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; By forwarding state I was more referring to the &quot;route -&gt; n=
exthop&quot; entries. You need an extra entry for each flow. The Bitstring =
info is part of the &quot;nexthop&quot;.<br>
<br>
&gt; So again, words from RFC7524 is very suitable for this: &quot;if the i=
ngress area uses<br>
&gt; wildcard S-PMSI, then the backbone area also SHOULD use wildcard S-PMS=
I for<br>
&gt; global table multicast, or the ingress ABRs MUST be able to disaggrega=
te traffic<br>
&gt; carried over the wildcard S-PMSI onto the backbone area (S,G) or (*,G)=
 S-<br>
&gt; PMSIs.&quot;<br>
&gt; So the same is suitable for BIER case: if ingress area use P2MP wildca=
rd S-PMSI,<br>
&gt; and egress area use BIER, and the user want to leverage the BIER witho=
ut<br>
&gt; flooding, then ABRs MUST do IP lookup.<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; That's another example of &quot;generalization&quot;: BIER tunnel i=
s no different from other tunnels.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In conclusion, the pattern of forwarding packets on =
segmentation<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; points only by lookup of MPLS label mapped from mult=
icast flow(s) is<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; significantly unnecessary when BIER is introduced.&n=
bsp; Instead, doing a<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; per-flow lookup of IP header on segmentation points =
is more efficient<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and consolidated.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Comments about some specific text:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Getting a much better multicast join latency=
 by eliminating the<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; round trip interaction of S-PMSI A=
D routes and Leaf AD routes.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Especially, the S-PMSI A-D routes =
may need a data-driven procedure<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to trigger, and make the multicast=
 join latency even worse.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The S-PMSI routes could be triggered by leaf A-D routes (section 7.2.2=
.1 RFC<br>
&gt; 7524) instead of data driven.<br>
&gt; Additionally, a way to reduce latency w/o requiring ip lookup is to us=
e I-PMSI<br>
&gt; initially for a short period of time.<br>
&gt; [XJR]: We use the word *may* to say this is a possible case. We have<b=
r>
&gt; considered the possibility of C-multicast routes triggered, or any (S,=
G) state<br>
&gt; triggered S-PMSI route.<br>
&gt; Thank you again for the introducing of another case.<br>
&gt; The RFC7988 is also a big help to understand. &quot;Note that joining =
an<br>
&gt; unadvertised IR P-tunnel is only possible when using the &quot;global =
table<br>
&gt; multicast&quot; procedures of [RFC7524].&quot;<br>
<br>
In this context, the GTM procedures in RFC7524 is basically triggering S-PM=
SI route based on received Leaf route. It applies to BIER as well, and can =
actually be applied to VRF. Yet another case of generalization.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [XJR]: Running BIER on a 'I-PMSI' manner w/o IP lookup is a good topic=
 I want<br>
&gt; to discuss.<br>
&gt; I found a word 'compromised' in the Security section of RFC8279. Do we=
 want<br>
&gt; to do such a 'compromise' for a BIER deployment ?<br>
&gt; I prefer personally not to use a 'compromised' manner for BIER from th=
e impl<br>
&gt; side, and I would like to call this an 'S-PMSI only' replication, but =
unfortunately<br>
&gt; the 'S-PMSI only' has been used by RFC6625 for control-plane.<br>
&gt; I'd like very much to learn more about your opinions from the BIER WG.=
 @ALL.<br>
<br>
I don't see why this is a concern in this context. If you care about the fo=
llowing:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; If a BFIR is compromised, it may impose a BIER encapsulation w=
ith all<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the bits in the BitString set; this would also result in a DoS=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; attack.<br>
<br>
It is applicable w/ or w/o segmentation.<br>
<br>
Jeffrey<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Consolidated forwarding procedure of IP look=
up for every BIER<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Overlay functioning routers, such =
as BFIR, BFER, segmentation<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; point BFR, and segmentation point =
BFR with BFER function.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This consolidation is not really necessary. Indeed an implementation l=
ikely will<br>
&gt; support both label switching and ip lookup, but it does not mean ip lo=
okup is<br>
&gt; the preferred way on a segmentation point.<br>
&gt; [XJR]: This consolidation is useful to say that, an IP lookup followin=
g an<br>
&gt; upstream VpnLabel lookup is not an *new* requirement of implementation=
<br>
&gt; (especially in data-plane). I am happy to change the word too.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jeffrey<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: BIER &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org">bier-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Xiejingrong<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 9:58 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org">bier@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-m=
vpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; segmented-06.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi BIER WG,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This draft was updated greatly in the past days, and I feel it is=
 clear now.<br>
&gt; &gt; It is a little long, so a discussion on mic may be not enough if =
it is<br>
&gt; &gt; not read through.<br>
&gt; &gt; Welcome very much for your feedback/inputs on this on the maillis=
t.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thank you very much.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; My log about this draft:<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- the term 'BIER tunnel', 'P2MP tunnel' and 'BGP-MVPN FEC'.<br=
>
&gt; &gt; ---- tunnel sticking can be between any two of mLDP/RSVP-TE/IR/BI=
ER.<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- e2e sticked tunnel can be bound to one or many 'BGP-MVPN FEC=
(s)'<br>
&gt; &gt; from some IngressPE and VRF, and Ingress PE can decide to use whi=
ch<br>
&gt; &gt; sticked tunnel for which flow(s).<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- the per-tunnel sticking of upstream tunnel and downstream<br=
>
&gt; &gt; tunnels, and the per-flow IP lookup for downstream BIER encapsula=
tion<br>
&gt; &gt; (BitString), are separated/decoupled.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Jingrong<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; A new version of I-D, draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt<br>
&gt; &gt; has been successfully submitted by Jingrong Xie and posted to the=
 IETF<br>
&gt; &gt; repository.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented<br>
&gt; &gt; Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp; 06<br>
&gt; &gt; Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Segmented MVPN Using IP Lookup for BIER<br>
&gt; &gt; Document date:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2018-10-22<br>
&gt; &gt; Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Submission<br>
&gt; &gt; Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 17<br>
&gt; &gt; URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented-2D06.txt&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0U=
jBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3D_u1HyrykoE799w=
1<br>
&gt; &gt; pjHLMlVFl39BqS3QcSI2ifj15WEM&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<=
br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DPEN0sOb4ROpfTJ=
9-<br>
&gt; &gt; rRPuBOViEjS2v3mCvXkttYALG4o&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-2Dsegmented-<br=
>
&gt; &gt; 2D06&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DlCVRhdEuZwZXbl=
wJ<br>
&gt; &gt; mBdPKkH4GIQM4PDVRRuIiKw4Ju8&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DgbhCl0sGTUhaL2=
qG<br>
&gt; &gt; 9dKQnIqdjbHDWbhqrxfYGwitON4&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Diff:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented-2D06&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DmiQxM2C8rvh6wm=
<br>
&gt; &gt; qVNaxpqPO6yjgfVTjFmfkPZdT4-go&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This document specifies an alternative of the c=
ontrol plane and data<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; plane procedures that allow segmented MVPN usin=
g the more efficient<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; LIR-pF explicit-tracking when BIER is used as t=
he upstream or<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; downstream or both segments.&nbsp; It requires =
a segmentation point BFR<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; doing an IP header lookup, which is common for =
the forwarding<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; procedure on BFER, or the forwarding procedure =
on ABR with local VPN<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CEs connected.&nbsp; This document updates [I-D=
.ietf-bier-mvpn].<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63=
rsuhr6Scbf<br>
&gt; &gt; h0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DAdJYxmU8rM5KwV=
<br>
&gt; &gt; pemxMtSZVaPU4ryXOePtnaqFuO7dw&amp;e=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:58:12 -0800
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Subject: [Bier] 103 minutes, 2nd day
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I have minutes from day 1, but I don't recall who took minutes for the 2nd
day. Mike? Can you please send them to this address ASAP?

Thanks,
Greg

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<div dir="ltr">I have minutes from day 1, but I don&#39;t recall who took minutes for the 2nd day. Mike? Can you please send them to this address ASAP?<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Greg</div></div>

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From nobody Mon Nov 12 18:47:22 2018
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From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
CC: "jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
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References: <154027576169.13787.12191866686392583633.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99B27171@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <SN6PR05MB5040EDAA05BD6EE299F13E64D4F70@SN6PR05MB5040.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115A99B28389@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <SN6PR05MB50409127B70469C7F64E12C5D4C50@SN6PR05MB5040.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> 0E219EAD-246A-4B88-B434-F6943BD0D638 <DM6PR05MB503692098C51ACBDB5820A4FD4C60@DM6PR05MB5036.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
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Hi Jeffrey,

I think we are converging on IP-lookup as an opinion to the operator, and t=
he issue of this document is not technological.

Thanks for the through discussion and clarification.

We are very grateful if you can put together all these more generalized poi=
nts, either you have pointed out or have not pointed out here.

Jingrong


From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2018 12:39 PM
To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org
Cc: jeffant.ietf@gmail.com
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.=
txt

Hi Jingrong,

Whether IP lookup is desired or not at the segmentation point can be argued=
 and is up to the operator; the real issue of this document is that the pro=
blem and solution are not BIER specific so it should belong to BESS.

I've already given a few points on how to generalize it. I can help further=
 by putting up a skeleton draft based on those points if you want.

Jeffrey

From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com<mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 6:50 AM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net<mailto:zzhang@juniper.net>>=
; bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>
Cc: jeffant.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:jeffant.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.=
txt


BIERers,

I missed some words on the left bier mic again.
the clear terms of bier tunnel and per flow explicit tracking is very impor=
tant to decouple. think about that how to support CORE network using an IPM=
SI and one of METRO network using BIER, will you force the CORE to use per =
flow per tunnel? just think about that, without any juice. the current bier=
-mvpn is wrong to force a mapping of flow to a vpn label. it is definitely =
crazy to me. we can miss the very obvious decoupling of per tunnel and per =
flow.

don't be trapped into the pros cons 40/60 or 60/40 again. think about that.=
 the very obvious scenario. the very direct feeling. the architecture of de=
 coupling different things. think about that deeply.

--------------------------------------------------
Sent From WeLink
From:Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
To:Xiejingrong,bier@ietf.org,
Date:2018-11-08 11:21:18
Subject:RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.t=
xt

Hi Jingrong,

Please see zzh> below.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com<mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com>>
> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:59 AM
> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net<mailto:zzhang@juniper.net=
>>; bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-
> 06.txt
>
> Hi Jeffrey,
>
> Thank you very much for the helpful comments.
> There are some very interesting topic I want to discuss with you BIER men=
.
> See my opinions inline below marked with [XJR].
>
> Jingrong.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 10:07 PM
> To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com<mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com>>; =
bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-
> 06.txt
>
> Hi Jingrong,
>
> Please see my comments below.
>
> A general comment is that this problem is not specific to BIER. Even if i=
t's just
> ingress replication, we'd also need IP lookup if we're not using per-flow=
 labels
> for segmentation points to do label switching. The only difference betwee=
n
> BIER and IR is that IR does not require S-PMSI routes (as the label can b=
e
> carried in auto-triggered Leaf AD routes); If it's P2MP tunnels, we also =
need S-
> PMSI route to advertise per-PMSI labels unless we do IP lookup.
>
> [XJR]: IP lookup for {ingress replication + GTM case} has been described =
in
> RFC7988/RFC7524 ('IP processing' in there), so this draft is BIER specifi=
c case.
> Moreover, this draft is an update of <draft-ietf-bier-mvpn>, which uses L=
abel
> lookup and LIR explicit-tracking for segmented mvpn, and mainly focus on
> BIER-BIER segmented MVPN ( I think).

Zzh> Good that they already talked about it. It's clear that it is not a BI=
ER specific issue (and equally applies to EVPN). Instead of writing a docum=
ents for every tunnel type, we can generalize it (see my summary in the pre=
vious email) - in fact, in this draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented there is real=
ly no BIER specific things (BIER encapsulation/decapsulation is no differen=
t from label push/pop that is used with IR).

>
> Therefore, I don't think this solution should be targeted at BIER. A simp=
le BESS
> document could be written, covering the following generic points:
> - The labels in I-PMSI routes could lead to label switching into next seg=
ment, or
> could lead to IP lookup in a local VRF. This is purely a local decision b=
ased on
> whether you want to do ip lookup or not.
> - The labels in S-PMSI routes (if those routes are sent), if different fr=
om the
> label in a corresponding I-PMSI, lead to label switching into next segmen=
t.
> - Leaf A-D routes trigger corresponding (s/*,g) routes in VRFs, if ip loo=
kup is
> desired/required
> - Upstream PE/ABR uses the label advertised in the matching x-PMSI routes
> (BIER/P2MP) or Leaf AD routes (IR) to send traffic
> [XJR]: Thanks for the remind of more generic points. Maybe we can borrow
> some very useful words from the RFC7988/7524. For example, [The
> procedures for such disaggregation require IP processing on the ingress A=
BRs]
> from RFC7524 is very suitable for BIER too, which need a disaggregation
> (through BIER encapsulation for per-flow) further from a per-tunnel/un-
> optimized BIER tunnel. Also this can make the whole BIER/MLDP/RSVP/IR for
> MVPN/GTM consolidate.
>
>
> As I pointed out before, doing IP lookup is not really better than per-fl=
ow/PMSI
> based label switching with respect to FIB size and forwarding performance=
. To
> do IP lookup you need to maintain (s,g) routes in different VRFs (for
> comparison you only need labels in the default/master instance if you do =
label
> switching). One can argue that this is actually less efficient - you need=
 to first
> do a label lookup to determine the VRF, and then do an IP lookup. Using I=
P
> lookup requires more forwarding state, and more forwarding cycles; the on=
ly
> saving you get is the elimination of control plane S-PMSI routes that dis=
tribute
> per-flow labels (and the corresponding delay). If that is super important=
, sure
> you can do IP lookup but the following text should be updated to point ou=
t
> pros and cons:
> [XJR]: Again thanks for the remind on the emphasis the comparison of IP
> lookup and Label lookup. I think the 'forwarding cycles', 'the FIB size',=
 is the
> significant thing need to be mentioned. And make the 'pros and cons' more
> clear.
> For the 'forwarding state', one example maybe from N to N+1 in number. Fo=
r
> example, in BIER-BIER segmented case, or IPMSI P2MP-BIER segmented case,
> or BIER-IPMSI P2MP segmented case, the IP lookup will need one 'forwardin=
g
> state' of Label (to find the PseudoVRF), and N 'forwarding state' of per-=
flow IP
> (to find the BitString).
> In some other cases, maybe from N to N+M.
> In the worst cases, maybe from N to N+N.

Zzh> By forwarding state I was more referring to the "route -> nexthop" ent=
ries. You need an extra entry for each flow. The Bitstring info is part of =
the "nexthop".

> So again, words from RFC7524 is very suitable for this: "if the ingress a=
rea uses
> wildcard S-PMSI, then the backbone area also SHOULD use wildcard S-PMSI f=
or
> global table multicast, or the ingress ABRs MUST be able to disaggregate =
traffic
> carried over the wildcard S-PMSI onto the backbone area (S,G) or (*,G) S-
> PMSIs."
> So the same is suitable for BIER case: if ingress area use P2MP wildcard =
S-PMSI,
> and egress area use BIER, and the user want to leverage the BIER without
> flooding, then ABRs MUST do IP lookup.

Zzh> That's another example of "generalization": BIER tunnel is no differen=
t from other tunnels.

>
>    In conclusion, the pattern of forwarding packets on segmentation
>    points only by lookup of MPLS label mapped from multicast flow(s) is
>    significantly unnecessary when BIER is introduced.  Instead, doing a
>    per-flow lookup of IP header on segmentation points is more efficient
>    and consolidated.
>
> Comments about some specific text:
>
>    o  Getting a much better multicast join latency by eliminating the
>       round trip interaction of S-PMSI AD routes and Leaf AD routes.
>       Especially, the S-PMSI A-D routes may need a data-driven procedure
>       to trigger, and make the multicast join latency even worse.
>
> The S-PMSI routes could be triggered by leaf A-D routes (section 7.2.2.1 =
RFC
> 7524) instead of data driven.
> Additionally, a way to reduce latency w/o requiring ip lookup is to use I=
-PMSI
> initially for a short period of time.
> [XJR]: We use the word *may* to say this is a possible case. We have
> considered the possibility of C-multicast routes triggered, or any (S,G) =
state
> triggered S-PMSI route.
> Thank you again for the introducing of another case.
> The RFC7988 is also a big help to understand. "Note that joining an
> unadvertised IR P-tunnel is only possible when using the "global table
> multicast" procedures of [RFC7524]."

In this context, the GTM procedures in RFC7524 is basically triggering S-PM=
SI route based on received Leaf route. It applies to BIER as well, and can =
actually be applied to VRF. Yet another case of generalization.

>
> [XJR]: Running BIER on a 'I-PMSI' manner w/o IP lookup is a good topic I =
want
> to discuss.
> I found a word 'compromised' in the Security section of RFC8279. Do we wa=
nt
> to do such a 'compromise' for a BIER deployment ?
> I prefer personally not to use a 'compromised' manner for BIER from the i=
mpl
> side, and I would like to call this an 'S-PMSI only' replication, but unf=
ortunately
> the 'S-PMSI only' has been used by RFC6625 for control-plane.
> I'd like very much to learn more about your opinions from the BIER WG. @A=
LL.

I don't see why this is a concern in this context. If you care about the fo=
llowing:

   If a BFIR is compromised, it may impose a BIER encapsulation with all
   the bits in the BitString set; this would also result in a DoS
   attack.

It is applicable w/ or w/o segmentation.

Jeffrey

>
>    o  Consolidated forwarding procedure of IP lookup for every BIER
>       Overlay functioning routers, such as BFIR, BFER, segmentation
>       point BFR, and segmentation point BFR with BFER function.
>
> This consolidation is not really necessary. Indeed an implementation like=
ly will
> support both label switching and ip lookup, but it does not mean ip looku=
p is
> the preferred way on a segmentation point.
> [XJR]: This consolidation is useful to say that, an IP lookup following a=
n
> upstream VpnLabel lookup is not an *new* requirement of implementation
> (especially in data-plane). I am happy to change the word too.
>
> Jeffrey
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org>> On Beh=
alf Of Xiejingrong
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 9:58 PM
> > To: bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-
> > segmented-06.txt
> >
> > Hi BIER WG,
> >
> > This draft was updated greatly in the past days, and I feel it is clear=
 now.
> > It is a little long, so a discussion on mic may be not enough if it is
> > not read through.
> > Welcome very much for your feedback/inputs on this on the maillist.
> > Thank you very much.
> >
> > My log about this draft:
> > ---- the term 'BIER tunnel', 'P2MP tunnel' and 'BGP-MVPN FEC'.
> > ---- tunnel sticking can be between any two of mLDP/RSVP-TE/IR/BIER.
> > ---- e2e sticked tunnel can be bound to one or many 'BGP-MVPN FEC(s)'
> > from some IngressPE and VRF, and Ingress PE can decide to use which
> > sticked tunnel for which flow(s).
> > ---- the per-tunnel sticking of upstream tunnel and downstream
> > tunnels, and the per-flow IP lookup for downstream BIER encapsulation
> > (BitString), are separated/decoupled.
> >
> > Jingrong
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > A new version of I-D, draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Jingrong Xie and posted to the IETF
> > repository.
> >
> > Name:               draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented
> > Revision:   06
> > Title:              Segmented MVPN Using IP Lookup for BIER
> > Document date:      2018-10-22
> > Group:              Individual Submission
> > Pages:              17
> > URL:            https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented-2D06.txt&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3D_u1HyrykoE799w1
> > pjHLMlVFl39BqS3QcSI2ifj15WEM&e=3D
> > Status:         https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented_&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DPEN0sOb4ROpfTJ9-
> > rRPuBOViEjS2v3mCvXkttYALG4o&e=3D
> > Htmlized:       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-2Dsegmented-
> > 2D06&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DlCVRhdEuZwZXblwJ
> > mBdPKkH4GIQM4PDVRRuIiKw4Ju8&e=3D
> > Htmlized:       https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DgbhCl0sGTUhaL2qG
> > 9dKQnIqdjbHDWbhqrxfYGwitON4&e=3D
> > Diff:           https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-
> > 2Dsegmented-2D06&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DmiQxM2C8rvh6wm
> > qVNaxpqPO6yjgfVTjFmfkPZdT4-go&e=3D
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This document specifies an alternative of the control plane and data
> >    plane procedures that allow segmented MVPN using the more efficient
> >    LIR-pF explicit-tracking when BIER is used as the upstream or
> >    downstream or both segments.  It requires a segmentation point BFR
> >    doing an IP header lookup, which is common for the forwarding
> >    procedure on BFER, or the forwarding procedure on ABR with local VPN
> >    CEs connected.  This document updates [I-D.ietf-bier-mvpn].
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org<mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> >
> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf
> > h0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> >
> m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&s=3DAdJYxmU8rM5KwV
> > pemxMtSZVaPU4ryXOePtnaqFuO7dw&e=3D

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Jeffrey,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I think we are converg=
ing on IP-lookup as an opinion to the operator, and the issue of this docum=
ent is not technological.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks for the through=
 discussion and clarification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">We are very grateful i=
f you can put together all these more generalized points, either you have p=
ointed out or have not pointed out here.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Jingrong<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 09, 2018 12:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xiejingrong &lt;xiejingrong@huawei.com&gt;; bier@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> jeffant.ietf@gmail.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmen=
ted-06.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Jingrong,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Whether IP lookup is desired or not at =
the segmentation point can be argued and is up to the operator; the real is=
sue of this document is that the problem and solution
 are not BIER specific so it should belong to BESS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;ve already given a few points o=
n how to generalize it. I can help further by putting up a skeleton draft b=
ased on those points if you want.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Xiejingrong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com">xiejingrong@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 8, 2018 6:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net=
">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org">bier@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:jeffant.ietf@gmail.com">jeffant.ietf@gmail.com=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmen=
ted-06.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
BIERers,<br>
<br>
I missed some words on the left bier mic again.<br>
the clear terms of bier tunnel and per flow explicit tracking is very impor=
tant to decouple. think about that how to support CORE network using an IPM=
SI and one of METRO network using BIER, will you force the CORE to use per =
flow per tunnel? just think about
 that, without any juice. the current bier-mvpn is wrong to force a mapping=
 of flow to a vpn label. it is definitely crazy to me. we can miss the very=
 obvious decoupling of per tunnel and per flow.<br>
<br>
don't be trapped into the pros cons 40/60 or 60/40 again. think about that.=
 the very obvious scenario. the very direct feeling. the architecture of de=
 coupling different things. think about that deeply.
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-------------------------------=
-------------------<br>
Sent From WeLink<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">To:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">Xiejingrong,bier@ietf.org,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Date:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">2018-11-08 11:21:18<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Subject:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">RE: New Version Notification for=
 draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Hi J=
ingrong,<br>
<br>
Please see zzh&gt; below.<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Xiejingrong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com">xiejin=
grong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:59 AM<br>
&gt; To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net">=
zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org">bier@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmente=
d-<br>
&gt; 06.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Jeffrey,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thank you very much for the helpful comments.<br>
&gt; There are some very interesting topic I want to discuss with you BIER =
men.<br>
&gt; See my opinions inline below marked with [XJR].<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jingrong.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net">m=
ailto:zzhang@juniper.net</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 10:07 PM<br>
&gt; To: Xiejingrong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com">xiejingr=
ong@huawei.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org">bier@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmente=
d-<br>
&gt; 06.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Jingrong,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please see my comments below.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A general comment is that this problem is not specific to BIER. Even i=
f it's just<br>
&gt; ingress replication, we'd also need IP lookup if we're not using per-f=
low labels<br>
&gt; for segmentation points to do label switching. The only difference bet=
ween<br>
&gt; BIER and IR is that IR does not require S-PMSI routes (as the label ca=
n be<br>
&gt; carried in auto-triggered Leaf AD routes); If it's P2MP tunnels, we al=
so need S-<br>
&gt; PMSI route to advertise per-PMSI labels unless we do IP lookup.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [XJR]: IP lookup for {ingress replication &#43; GTM case} has been des=
cribed in<br>
&gt; RFC7988/RFC7524 ('IP processing' in there), so this draft is BIER spec=
ific case.<br>
&gt; Moreover, this draft is an update of &lt;draft-ietf-bier-mvpn&gt;, whi=
ch uses Label<br>
&gt; lookup and LIR explicit-tracking for segmented mvpn, and mainly focus =
on<br>
&gt; BIER-BIER segmented MVPN ( I think).<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; Good that they already talked about it. It's clear that it is not a=
 BIER specific issue (and equally applies to EVPN). Instead of writing a do=
cuments for every tunnel type, we can generalize it (see my summary in the =
previous email) - in fact, in this
 draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented there is really no BIER specific things (BIE=
R encapsulation/decapsulation is no different from label push/pop that is u=
sed with IR).<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Therefore, I don't think this solution should be targeted at BIER. A s=
imple BESS<br>
&gt; document could be written, covering the following generic points:<br>
&gt; - The labels in I-PMSI routes could lead to label switching into next =
segment, or<br>
&gt; could lead to IP lookup in a local VRF. This is purely a local decisio=
n based on<br>
&gt; whether you want to do ip lookup or not.<br>
&gt; - The labels in S-PMSI routes (if those routes are sent), if different=
 from the<br>
&gt; label in a corresponding I-PMSI, lead to label switching into next seg=
ment.<br>
&gt; - Leaf A-D routes trigger corresponding (s/*,g) routes in VRFs, if ip =
lookup is<br>
&gt; desired/required<br>
&gt; - Upstream PE/ABR uses the label advertised in the matching x-PMSI rou=
tes<br>
&gt; (BIER/P2MP) or Leaf AD routes (IR) to send traffic<br>
&gt; [XJR]: Thanks for the remind of more generic points. Maybe we can borr=
ow<br>
&gt; some very useful words from the RFC7988/7524. For example, [The<br>
&gt; procedures for such disaggregation require IP processing on the ingres=
s ABRs]<br>
&gt; from RFC7524 is very suitable for BIER too, which need a disaggregatio=
n<br>
&gt; (through BIER encapsulation for per-flow) further from a per-tunnel/un=
-<br>
&gt; optimized BIER tunnel. Also this can make the whole BIER/MLDP/RSVP/IR =
for<br>
&gt; MVPN/GTM consolidate.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As I pointed out before, doing IP lookup is not really better than per=
-flow/PMSI<br>
&gt; based label switching with respect to FIB size and forwarding performa=
nce. To<br>
&gt; do IP lookup you need to maintain (s,g) routes in different VRFs (for<=
br>
&gt; comparison you only need labels in the default/master instance if you =
do label<br>
&gt; switching). One can argue that this is actually less efficient - you n=
eed to first<br>
&gt; do a label lookup to determine the VRF, and then do an IP lookup. Usin=
g IP<br>
&gt; lookup requires more forwarding state, and more forwarding cycles; the=
 only<br>
&gt; saving you get is the elimination of control plane S-PMSI routes that =
distribute<br>
&gt; per-flow labels (and the corresponding delay). If that is super import=
ant, sure<br>
&gt; you can do IP lookup but the following text should be updated to point=
 out<br>
&gt; pros and cons:<br>
&gt; [XJR]: Again thanks for the remind on the emphasis the comparison of I=
P<br>
&gt; lookup and Label lookup. I think the 'forwarding cycles', 'the FIB siz=
e', is the<br>
&gt; significant thing need to be mentioned. And make the 'pros and cons' m=
ore<br>
&gt; clear.<br>
&gt; For the 'forwarding state', one example maybe from N to N&#43;1 in num=
ber. For<br>
&gt; example, in BIER-BIER segmented case, or IPMSI P2MP-BIER segmented cas=
e,<br>
&gt; or BIER-IPMSI P2MP segmented case, the IP lookup will need one 'forwar=
ding<br>
&gt; state' of Label (to find the PseudoVRF), and N 'forwarding state' of p=
er-flow IP<br>
&gt; (to find the BitString).<br>
&gt; In some other cases, maybe from N to N&#43;M.<br>
&gt; In the worst cases, maybe from N to N&#43;N.<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; By forwarding state I was more referring to the &quot;route -&gt; n=
exthop&quot; entries. You need an extra entry for each flow. The Bitstring =
info is part of the &quot;nexthop&quot;.<br>
<br>
&gt; So again, words from RFC7524 is very suitable for this: &quot;if the i=
ngress area uses<br>
&gt; wildcard S-PMSI, then the backbone area also SHOULD use wildcard S-PMS=
I for<br>
&gt; global table multicast, or the ingress ABRs MUST be able to disaggrega=
te traffic<br>
&gt; carried over the wildcard S-PMSI onto the backbone area (S,G) or (*,G)=
 S-<br>
&gt; PMSIs.&quot;<br>
&gt; So the same is suitable for BIER case: if ingress area use P2MP wildca=
rd S-PMSI,<br>
&gt; and egress area use BIER, and the user want to leverage the BIER witho=
ut<br>
&gt; flooding, then ABRs MUST do IP lookup.<br>
<br>
Zzh&gt; That's another example of &quot;generalization&quot;: BIER tunnel i=
s no different from other tunnels.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In conclusion, the pattern of forwarding packets on =
segmentation<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; points only by lookup of MPLS label mapped from mult=
icast flow(s) is<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; significantly unnecessary when BIER is introduced.&n=
bsp; Instead, doing a<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; per-flow lookup of IP header on segmentation points =
is more efficient<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and consolidated.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Comments about some specific text:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Getting a much better multicast join latency=
 by eliminating the<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; round trip interaction of S-PMSI A=
D routes and Leaf AD routes.<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Especially, the S-PMSI A-D routes =
may need a data-driven procedure<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to trigger, and make the multicast=
 join latency even worse.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The S-PMSI routes could be triggered by leaf A-D routes (section 7.2.2=
.1 RFC<br>
&gt; 7524) instead of data driven.<br>
&gt; Additionally, a way to reduce latency w/o requiring ip lookup is to us=
e I-PMSI<br>
&gt; initially for a short period of time.<br>
&gt; [XJR]: We use the word *may* to say this is a possible case. We have<b=
r>
&gt; considered the possibility of C-multicast routes triggered, or any (S,=
G) state<br>
&gt; triggered S-PMSI route.<br>
&gt; Thank you again for the introducing of another case.<br>
&gt; The RFC7988 is also a big help to understand. &quot;Note that joining =
an<br>
&gt; unadvertised IR P-tunnel is only possible when using the &quot;global =
table<br>
&gt; multicast&quot; procedures of [RFC7524].&quot;<br>
<br>
In this context, the GTM procedures in RFC7524 is basically triggering S-PM=
SI route based on received Leaf route. It applies to BIER as well, and can =
actually be applied to VRF. Yet another case of generalization.<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [XJR]: Running BIER on a 'I-PMSI' manner w/o IP lookup is a good topic=
 I want<br>
&gt; to discuss.<br>
&gt; I found a word 'compromised' in the Security section of RFC8279. Do we=
 want<br>
&gt; to do such a 'compromise' for a BIER deployment ?<br>
&gt; I prefer personally not to use a 'compromised' manner for BIER from th=
e impl<br>
&gt; side, and I would like to call this an 'S-PMSI only' replication, but =
unfortunately<br>
&gt; the 'S-PMSI only' has been used by RFC6625 for control-plane.<br>
&gt; I'd like very much to learn more about your opinions from the BIER WG.=
 @ALL.<br>
<br>
I don't see why this is a concern in this context. If you care about the fo=
llowing:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; If a BFIR is compromised, it may impose a BIER encapsulation w=
ith all<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the bits in the BitString set; this would also result in a DoS=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; attack.<br>
<br>
It is applicable w/ or w/o segmentation.<br>
<br>
Jeffrey<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Consolidated forwarding procedure of IP look=
up for every BIER<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Overlay functioning routers, such =
as BFIR, BFER, segmentation<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; point BFR, and segmentation point =
BFR with BFER function.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This consolidation is not really necessary. Indeed an implementation l=
ikely will<br>
&gt; support both label switching and ip lookup, but it does not mean ip lo=
okup is<br>
&gt; the preferred way on a segmentation point.<br>
&gt; [XJR]: This consolidation is useful to say that, an IP lookup followin=
g an<br>
&gt; upstream VpnLabel lookup is not an *new* requirement of implementation=
<br>
&gt; (especially in data-plane). I am happy to change the word too.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jeffrey<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: BIER &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org">bier-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Xiejingrong<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 9:58 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org">bier@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Bier] New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-m=
vpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; segmented-06.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi BIER WG,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This draft was updated greatly in the past days, and I feel it is=
 clear now.<br>
&gt; &gt; It is a little long, so a discussion on mic may be not enough if =
it is<br>
&gt; &gt; not read through.<br>
&gt; &gt; Welcome very much for your feedback/inputs on this on the maillis=
t.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thank you very much.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; My log about this draft:<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- the term 'BIER tunnel', 'P2MP tunnel' and 'BGP-MVPN FEC'.<br=
>
&gt; &gt; ---- tunnel sticking can be between any two of mLDP/RSVP-TE/IR/BI=
ER.<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- e2e sticked tunnel can be bound to one or many 'BGP-MVPN FEC=
(s)'<br>
&gt; &gt; from some IngressPE and VRF, and Ingress PE can decide to use whi=
ch<br>
&gt; &gt; sticked tunnel for which flow(s).<br>
&gt; &gt; ---- the per-tunnel sticking of upstream tunnel and downstream<br=
>
&gt; &gt; tunnels, and the per-flow IP lookup for downstream BIER encapsula=
tion<br>
&gt; &gt; (BitString), are separated/decoupled.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Jingrong<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; A new version of I-D, draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented-06.txt<br>
&gt; &gt; has been successfully submitted by Jingrong Xie and posted to the=
 IETF<br>
&gt; &gt; repository.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-xie-bier-mvpn-segmented<br>
&gt; &gt; Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp; 06<br>
&gt; &gt; Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Segmented MVPN Using IP Lookup for BIER<br>
&gt; &gt; Document date:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2018-10-22<br>
&gt; &gt; Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Submission<br>
&gt; &gt; Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 17<br>
&gt; &gt; URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented-2D06.txt&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0U=
jBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3D_u1HyrykoE799w=
1<br>
&gt; &gt; pjHLMlVFl39BqS3QcSI2ifj15WEM&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<=
br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DPEN0sOb4ROpfTJ=
9-<br>
&gt; &gt; rRPuBOViEjS2v3mCvXkttYALG4o&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-2Dsegmented-<br=
>
&gt; &gt; 2D06&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DlCVRhdEuZwZXbl=
wJ<br>
&gt; &gt; mBdPKkH4GIQM4PDVRRuIiKw4Ju8&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DgbhCl0sGTUhaL2=
qG<br>
&gt; &gt; 9dKQnIqdjbHDWbhqrxfYGwitON4&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; Diff:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dxie-2Dbier-2Dmvpn-<br>
&gt; &gt; 2Dsegmented-2D06&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; m=3DaL92z5vmARBlhRcqrvU6Kwz1q5z4TsFK8qNHRyai1lc&amp;s=3DmiQxM2C8rvh6wm=
<br>
&gt; &gt; qVNaxpqPO6yjgfVTjFmfkPZdT4-go&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This document specifies an alternative of the c=
ontrol plane and data<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; plane procedures that allow segmented MVPN usin=
g the more efficient<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; LIR-pF explicit-tracking when BIER is used as t=
he upstream or<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; downstream or both segments.&nbsp; It requires =
a segmentation point BFR<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; doing an IP header lookup, which is common for =
the forwarding<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; procedure on BFER, or the forwarding procedure =
on ABR with local VPN<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CEs connected.&nbsp; This document updates [I-D=
.ietf-bier-mvpn].<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-">h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63=
rsuhr6Scbf<br>
&gt; &gt; h0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&am=
p;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
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</div>
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From: Wen Lin <wlin@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: [bess]  [Bier] FW: WG adoption poll fordraft-zzhang-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label-01
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Subject: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8444_on_OSPFv2_Extensions_for_Bit_Index_Exp?= =?utf-8?q?licit_Replication_=28BIER=29?=
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 8444

        Title:      OSPFv2 Extensions for Bit Index 
                    Explicit Replication (BIER) 
        Author:     P. Psenak, Ed.,
                    N. Kumar,
                    IJ. Wijnands,
                    A. Dolganow, 
                    T. Przygienda,
                    J. Zhang,
                    S. Aldrin
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       November 2018
        Mailbox:    ppsenak@cisco.com, 
                    naikumar@cisco.com, 
                    ice@cisco.com, 
                    andrew.dolganow@nokia.com, 
                    prz@juniper.net, 
                    zzhang@juniper.net, 
                    aldrin.ietf@gmail.com
        Pages:      12
        Characters: 23780
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions-18.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8444

        DOI:        10.17487/RFC8444

Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that
provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without
requiring intermediate routers to maintain multicast-related, per-
flow state.  BIER also does not require an explicit tree-building
protocol for its operation.  A multicast data packet enters a BIER
domain at a Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router (BFIR) and leaves the BIER
domain at one or more Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers (BFERs).  The
BFIR adds a BIER packet header to the packet.  The BIER packet header
contains a BitString in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to
forward the packet to.  The set of BFERs to which the multicast
packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by the set of bits in the
BIER packet header.

This document describes the OSPF protocol extension (from RFC 2328)
that is required for BIER with MPLS encapsulation (which is defined
in RFC 8296).  Support for other encapsulation types and the use of
multiple encapsulation types are outside the scope of this document.

This document is a product of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Official
Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the 
standardization state and status of this protocol.  Distribution of this 
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The RFC Editor Team
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From nobody Fri Nov 16 15:09:31 2018
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Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BIER Underlay Path Calculation Algorithm and Constraints
        Authors         : Zhaohui Zhang
                          Antoni Przygienda
                          Andrew Dolganow
                          Hooman Bidgoli
                          IJsbrand Wijnands
                          Arkadiy Gulko
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-03.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2018-11-16

Abstract:
   This document specifies general rules for interaction between the BAR
   (BIER Algorithm) and IPA (IGP Algorithm) fields defined in ISIS/
   OSPFv2 Extensions for BIER.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/kn5fYej9N9cepPpUqg25AOeRKTI>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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Hi Stig,

I just submitted -04 revision and it should have addressed your comments (t=
hank you for reviewing the diff beforehand).

Thanks.
Jeffrey

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Stig Venaas
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:23 PM
> To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
>=20
> Hi
>=20
> I think the draft needs a little bit more work before publication.
>=20
> It's not clear to me what the contents of the BAR and IPA fields are.
>=20
> For BAR you say that it is BCBA and that for the currently defined
> algorithm 0, BC and BA are both NULL. But if new BIER algorithms are
> defined, how would you define BC? Is the idea that the values in the
> BIER algorithm registry signify both BC and BA? In that case the name
> is misleading.
>=20
> For IPA it is also not clear how you specify RC for the different
> values of RA. The existing registry only specifies the RA.
>=20
> In section 1 it says:
>    [To be added]
> Will anything be added here?
>=20
> In section 2 it says:
>=20
>    In [RFC8401] and [I-D.ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions], an 8-bit BAR
>    field and 8-bit IPA field are defined to signal the BIER specific
>    algorithm and generic IGP Algorithm respectively and only value 0 is
>    allowed for both fields currently.  This document specifies the
>    general rules for the two fields and their interaction when either or
>    both fields are not 0.
>=20
> I think the term "currently" will be confusing once this becomes an RFC.
> "Currently" here talks about the situation prior to the publication of th=
e
> RFC, it would no longer be true after publication.
>=20
> Typo in the title.
>=20
> Typo: multit-topolgy
>=20
> Stig
>=20
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:55 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Today starts a WGLC two week timer for:
> >
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dbier-2Dbar-2Dipa-
> 2D02&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
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> A&e=3D
> >
> > Please read and respond to this thread with/without support.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Shep
> > (Chairs)
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
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> WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=3D
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
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> h0UjBXeMK-
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> m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-
> WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=3D


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From: Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 15:31:25 -0800
Message-ID: <CAHANBtJTHZzOb0-U4XOHoAAq0FALV3gZgtqvLbtOA-P=F-1u8A@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
Cc: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/BMCLrfqC3_owGZPWdlQa2vXlMN8>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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Right, looks good to me,

Stig

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 3:14 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
<zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> I meant the -03 revision.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 6:13 PM
> > To: 'Stig Venaas' <stig@venaas.com>; Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>;
> > 'Tony Przygienda' <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > Subject: RE: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
> >
> > Hi Stig,
> >
> > I just submitted -04 revision and it should have addressed your comments
> > (thank you for reviewing the diff beforehand).
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Jeffrey
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Stig Venaas
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:23 PM
> > > To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> > > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I think the draft needs a little bit more work before publication.
> > >
> > > It's not clear to me what the contents of the BAR and IPA fields are.
> > >
> > > For BAR you say that it is BCBA and that for the currently defined
> > > algorithm 0, BC and BA are both NULL. But if new BIER algorithms are
> > > defined, how would you define BC? Is the idea that the values in the
> > > BIER algorithm registry signify both BC and BA? In that case the name
> > > is misleading.
> > >
> > > For IPA it is also not clear how you specify RC for the different
> > > values of RA. The existing registry only specifies the RA.
> > >
> > > In section 1 it says:
> > >    [To be added]
> > > Will anything be added here?
> > >
> > > In section 2 it says:
> > >
> > >    In [RFC8401] and [I-D.ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions], an 8-bit BAR
> > >    field and 8-bit IPA field are defined to signal the BIER specific
> > >    algorithm and generic IGP Algorithm respectively and only value 0 is
> > >    allowed for both fields currently.  This document specifies the
> > >    general rules for the two fields and their interaction when either or
> > >    both fields are not 0.
> > >
> > > I think the term "currently" will be confusing once this becomes an RFC.
> > > "Currently" here talks about the situation prior to the publication of the
> > > RFC, it would no longer be true after publication.
> > >
> > > Typo in the title.
> > >
> > > Typo: multit-topolgy
> > >
> > > Stig
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:55 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Today starts a WGLC two week timer for:
> > > >
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> > > 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dbier-2Dbar-2Dipa-
> > > 2D02&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > >
> > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > > m=uNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > >
> > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=9Up4dsFxMx0w5cbbj5c7DKimcRHUXcjL7EQw6mygnp
> > > A&e=
> > > >
> > > > Please read and respond to this thread with/without support.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Shep
> > > > (Chairs)
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
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> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=


From nobody Fri Nov 16 16:23:34 2018
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
CC: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/liKbZJIrpCgA-Swnb8AC_-YFldc>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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I meant the -03 revision.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 6:13 PM
> To: 'Stig Venaas' <stig@venaas.com>; Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>;
> 'Tony Przygienda' <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
>=20
> Hi Stig,
>=20
> I just submitted -04 revision and it should have addressed your comments
> (thank you for reviewing the diff beforehand).
>=20
> Thanks.
> Jeffrey
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Stig Venaas
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:23 PM
> > To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I think the draft needs a little bit more work before publication.
> >
> > It's not clear to me what the contents of the BAR and IPA fields are.
> >
> > For BAR you say that it is BCBA and that for the currently defined
> > algorithm 0, BC and BA are both NULL. But if new BIER algorithms are
> > defined, how would you define BC? Is the idea that the values in the
> > BIER algorithm registry signify both BC and BA? In that case the name
> > is misleading.
> >
> > For IPA it is also not clear how you specify RC for the different
> > values of RA. The existing registry only specifies the RA.
> >
> > In section 1 it says:
> >    [To be added]
> > Will anything be added here?
> >
> > In section 2 it says:
> >
> >    In [RFC8401] and [I-D.ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions], an 8-bit BAR
> >    field and 8-bit IPA field are defined to signal the BIER specific
> >    algorithm and generic IGP Algorithm respectively and only value 0 is
> >    allowed for both fields currently.  This document specifies the
> >    general rules for the two fields and their interaction when either o=
r
> >    both fields are not 0.
> >
> > I think the term "currently" will be confusing once this becomes an RFC=
.
> > "Currently" here talks about the situation prior to the publication of =
the
> > RFC, it would no longer be true after publication.
> >
> > Typo in the title.
> >
> > Typo: multit-topolgy
> >
> > Stig
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:55 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Today starts a WGLC two week timer for:
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dbier-2Dbar-2Dipa-
> > 2D02&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> >
> 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=3D9Up4dsFxMx0w5cbbj5c7DKimcRHUXcjL7EQw6mygnp
> > A&e=3D
> > >
> > > Please read and respond to this thread with/without support.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Shep
> > > (Chairs)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > BIER mailing list
> > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> >
> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf
> > h0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-
> > WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=3D
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> >
> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf
> > h0UjBXeMK-
> >
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-
> > WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=3D


From nobody Sat Nov 17 10:21:35 2018
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Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-php-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BIER Penultimate Hop Popping
        Author          : Zhaohui Zhang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-php-00.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2018-11-16

Abstract:
   Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) can be used as provider tunnel
   for MVPN/GTM [RFC6514] [RFC7716] or EVPN BUM [RFC7432].  It is
   possible that not all routers in the provider network support BIER
   and there are various methods to handle BIER incapable transit
   routers.  However the MVPN/EVPN PEs are assumed to be BIER capable -
   they are BFIRs/BFERs.  This document specifies a method to allow BIER
   incapable routers to act as MVPN/EVPN PEs with BIER as the transport,
   by having the upstream BFR (connected directly or indirectly via a
   tunnel) of a PE remove the BIER header and send the payload to the
   PE.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-php/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Sun Nov 18 13:53:39 2018
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From: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>
To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/
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Cg==


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From: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:44:21 +0530
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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To the Authors,

(Excerpts from the draft - Section 2)

For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA,
its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.


Senthil //

This statement is confusing.

Any new IGP algorithm (allocated by IANA in IGP registry) would have
already defined the semantics clearly in the corresponding lsr
document.

Do you mean "for the new IGP algorithms to be used as BIER IPA", we
again need to specify the semantics (from BIER/Multicast per-se) in a
separate document which proposes "a IGP algorithm to be used for BIER
IPA" ?

If yes, why ?

If no, may be we should remove above statement?, As its a
pre-requisite for any new IGP algorithm types and does't need explicit
mention in this document.


Thanks,

Senthil


On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 5:01 AM Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com> wrote:

> Right, looks good to me,
>
> Stig
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 3:14 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:
> >
> > I meant the -03 revision.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 6:13 PM
> > > To: 'Stig Venaas' <stig@venaas.com>; Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>;
> > > 'Tony Przygienda' <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> > > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > > Subject: RE: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
> > >
> > > Hi Stig,
> > >
> > > I just submitted -04 revision and it should have addressed your
> comments
> > > (thank you for reviewing the diff beforehand).
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > Jeffrey
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Stig Venaas
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:23 PM
> > > > To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> > > > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
> > > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > I think the draft needs a little bit more work before publication.
> > > >
> > > > It's not clear to me what the contents of the BAR and IPA fields are.
> > > >
> > > > For BAR you say that it is BCBA and that for the currently defined
> > > > algorithm 0, BC and BA are both NULL. But if new BIER algorithms are
> > > > defined, how would you define BC? Is the idea that the values in the
> > > > BIER algorithm registry signify both BC and BA? In that case the name
> > > > is misleading.
> > > >
> > > > For IPA it is also not clear how you specify RC for the different
> > > > values of RA. The existing registry only specifies the RA.
> > > >
> > > > In section 1 it says:
> > > >    [To be added]
> > > > Will anything be added here?
> > > >
> > > > In section 2 it says:
> > > >
> > > >    In [RFC8401] and [I-D.ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions], an 8-bit
> BAR
> > > >    field and 8-bit IPA field are defined to signal the BIER specific
> > > >    algorithm and generic IGP Algorithm respectively and only value 0
> is
> > > >    allowed for both fields currently.  This document specifies the
> > > >    general rules for the two fields and their interaction when
> either or
> > > >    both fields are not 0.
> > > >
> > > > I think the term "currently" will be confusing once this becomes an
> RFC.
> > > > "Currently" here talks about the situation prior to the publication
> of the
> > > > RFC, it would no longer be true after publication.
> > > >
> > > > Typo in the title.
> > > >
> > > > Typo: multit-topolgy
> > > >
> > > > Stig
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:55 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Today starts a WGLC two week timer for:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> > > > 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dbier-2Dbar-2Dipa-
> > > > 2D02&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > > >
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > > > m=uNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > > >
> > > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=9Up4dsFxMx0w5cbbj5c7DKimcRHUXcjL7EQw6mygnp
> > > > A&e=
> > > > >
> > > > > Please read and respond to this thread with/without support.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Shep
> > > > > (Chairs)
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> > > >
> > > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf
> > > > h0UjBXeMK-
> > > >
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > > > m=uNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > > > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=TcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-
> > > > WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> > > >
> > > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf
> > > > h0UjBXeMK-
> > > >
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > > > m=uNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > > > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=TcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-
> > > > WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

--00000000000050743a057b01c4e1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">To the Authors,<div><br></div><div>(Excerpts from the draf=
t - Section 2)<br></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-siz=
e:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,=
0,0)">For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA,
its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:p=
age;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-=
size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb=
(0,0,0)">Senthil //</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13=
.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)=
">This statement is confusing.</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">Any new IGP algorithm (allocated by IANA in IGP registry) woul=
d have already defined the semantics clearly in the corresponding lsr docum=
ent.</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-=
top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Do you mean &=
quot;for the new IGP algorithms to be used as BIER IPA&quot;, we again need=
 to specify the semantics (from BIER/Multicast per-se) in a separate docume=
nt which proposes &quot;a IGP algorithm to be used for BIER IPA&quot; ?</pr=
e><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;=
margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">If yes, why ?</pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;marg=
in-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">If no, may be we should r=
emove above statement?, As its a pre-requisite for any new IGP algorithm ty=
pes and does&#39;t need explicit mention in this document.</pre><pre class=
=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-botto=
m:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-new=
page" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-b=
efore:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thanks,</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" styl=
e=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page=
;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Senthil</pre></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 5:01 AM Stig Venaas &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:stig@venaas.com">stig@venaas.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">Right, looks good to me,<br>
<br>
Stig<br>
<br>
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 3:14 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">zzhang@juniper.=
net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I meant the -03 revision.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 6:13 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;Stig Venaas&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" =
target=3D"_blank">stig@venaas.com</a>&gt;; Greg Shepherd &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;Tony Przygienda&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Stig,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I just submitted -04 revision and it should have addressed your c=
omments<br>
&gt; &gt; (thank you for reviewing the diff beforehand).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt; &gt; Jeffrey<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: BIER &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">bier-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Stig Venaas<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:23 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Greg Shepherd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I think the draft needs a little bit more work before public=
ation.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; It&#39;s not clear to me what the contents of the BAR and IP=
A fields are.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; For BAR you say that it is BCBA and that for the currently d=
efined<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; algorithm 0, BC and BA are both NULL. But if new BIER algori=
thms are<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; defined, how would you define BC? Is the idea that the value=
s in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; BIER algorithm registry signify both BC and BA? In that case=
 the name<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is misleading.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; For IPA it is also not clear how you specify RC for the diff=
erent<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; values of RA. The existing registry only specifies the RA.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; In section 1 it says:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [To be added]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Will anything be added here?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; In section 2 it says:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In [RFC8401] and [I-D.ietf-bier-ospf-bier-exten=
sions], an 8-bit BAR<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 field and 8-bit IPA field are defined to signal=
 the BIER specific<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm and generic IGP Algorithm respectivel=
y and only value 0 is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 allowed for both fields currently.=C2=A0 This d=
ocument specifies the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 general rules for the two fields and their inte=
raction when either or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 both fields are not 0.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I think the term &quot;currently&quot; will be confusing onc=
e this becomes an RFC.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Currently&quot; here talks about the situation prior t=
o the publication of the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; RFC, it would no longer be true after publication.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Typo in the title.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Typo: multit-topolgy<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Stig<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:55 AM Greg Shepherd &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Today starts a WGLC two week timer for:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoi=
nt.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dbier-2Dbar-2Dipa-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 2D02&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZ=
qE&amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&amp;s=3D9Up4dsFxMx0w5cbbj5c7DKimcRHUXcjL7EQw6m=
ygnp<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; A&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Please read and respond to this thread with/without sup=
port.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Shep<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (Chairs)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER=
@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoi=
nt.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAk=
Yuh63rsuhr6Scbf<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; h0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZ=
qE&amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&amp;s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf=
.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp=
s-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAk=
Yuh63rsuhr6Scbf<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; h0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZ=
qE&amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&amp;s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&amp;e=3D<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000050743a057b01c4e1--


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From: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 16:21:59 +0530
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Hi Jeffrey,

Few comments, Pls check !

1. Non-BIER capable router
This is the property of the router and not a per sub-domain attribute.
Considering the same, should we define the PHP TLV as a node-level TLV
instead of a sub-TLV under BIER SD TLV ? This would avoid having to encode
PHP sub-TLV for each dub-domain supported by the node.

2. BIER Capable router - Not supporting a BSL
This is again the property of the router  (or per line card?)
Similar to (1), should we use a node-level TLV and specify the BSL's (as
bit mask?) for which PHP is requested.

3. It is better we clarify the TTL procedure at the penultimate LSR
explicitly ?

4. OAM packets - Ping/Trace destined to the edge node who requested PHP
will not work. Should we define specific error codes to be sent back by
penultimate lsr in such cases for better OAM?

Thanks,
Senthil

On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 11:51 PM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of
> the IETF.
>
>         Title           : BIER Penultimate Hop Popping
>         Author          : Zhaohui Zhang
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-php-00.txt
>         Pages           : 7
>         Date            : 2018-11-16
>
> Abstract:
>    Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) can be used as provider tunnel
>    for MVPN/GTM [RFC6514] [RFC7716] or EVPN BUM [RFC7432].  It is
>    possible that not all routers in the provider network support BIER
>    and there are various methods to handle BIER incapable transit
>    routers.  However the MVPN/EVPN PEs are assumed to be BIER capable -
>    they are BFIRs/BFERs.  This document specifies a method to allow BIER
>    incapable routers to act as MVPN/EVPN PEs with BIER as the transport,
>    by having the upstream BFR (connected directly or indirectly via a
>    tunnel) of a PE remove the BIER header and send the payload to the
>    PE.
>
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-php/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-00
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-00
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

--000000000000ef0044057b024a11
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Jeffrey,</div><div><br></div><div>Few comments, Pl=
s check !</div><br><div>1. Non-BIER capable router</div><div>This is the pr=
operty of the router and not a per sub-domain attribute.=C2=A0</div><div>Co=
nsidering the same, should we define the PHP TLV as a node-level TLV instea=
d of a sub-TLV under BIER SD TLV ? This would avoid having to encode PHP su=
b-TLV for each dub-domain supported by the node.</div><div><br></div><div>2=
. BIER Capable router - Not supporting a BSL</div><div>This is again the pr=
operty of the router=C2=A0=C2=A0(or per line card?)<br></div><div>Similar t=
o (1), should we use a node-level TLV and specify the BSL&#39;s (as bit mas=
k?) for which PHP is requested.</div><div><br></div><div>3. It is better we=
 clarify the TTL procedure at the penultimate LSR explicitly ?</div><div><b=
r></div><div>4. OAM packets - Ping/Trace destined to the edge node who requ=
ested PHP will not work. Should we define specific error codes to be sent b=
ack by penultimate lsr in such cases for better OAM?</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Thanks,</div><div>Senthil</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 11:51 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:interne=
t-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the=
 IETF.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 BIER Penultimate Hop Popping<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Zhao=
hui Zhang<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-bier-php-00.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 7<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2018-11-16<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) can be used as provider =
tunnel<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for MVPN/GTM [RFC6514] [RFC7716] or EVPN BUM [RFC7432].=C2=A0 =
It is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0possible that not all routers in the provider network support =
BIER<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and there are various methods to handle BIER incapable transit=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routers.=C2=A0 However the MVPN/EVPN PEs are assumed to be BIE=
R capable -<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0they are BFIRs/BFERs.=C2=A0 This document specifies a method t=
o allow BIER<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0incapable routers to act as MVPN/EVPN PEs with BIER as the tra=
nsport,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0by having the upstream BFR (connected directly or indirectly v=
ia a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0tunnel) of a PE remove the BIER header and send the payload to=
 the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0PE.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-php/" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bie=
r-php/</a><br>
<br>
There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-00" rel=3D"noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-00=
</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-00" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-ietf-bier-php-00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000ef0044057b024a11--


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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>, "stig@venaas.com" <stig@venaas.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/mtQdgQREw9nuoAT8jzMl9ZLvJeY>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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From: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 19:53:47 +0530
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To: zzhang@juniper.net
Cc: stig@venaas.com, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>, bier@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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Hi Jeffrey,

Let me try to be more specific.

Lets take IGP Flex Algo as an example. (refer draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-01)
FlexAlgo can be defined locally and [the Algorithm-Id & the associated
constraints ] shall be advertised via IGP using FAD TLV.

Assuming we have defined a new FlexAlgo=3D128 with "constraints =3D exclude=
 a
specific color", and we want to use this constraints for BIER multicast
path, then we just need to specify BAR=3D0, IPA=3D128. Why do we need to
specify the semantics of FlexAlgo=3D128 explicitly for BIER/Multicast ?

I assume that in most of the cases, the Constraints/FlexAlgo defined for
unicast traffic can be used as-is for Multicast path as well.
Cases, where we are required to define a constraint which is specific only
to multicast paths (ex: less span-out's), we would define the "new
constraint" as part of BCA in BAR (allocate the Id for BAR from BIER
Registry). Is't it ?

Thanks,
Senthil


On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:49 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net=
>
wrote:

> Hi Senthil,
>
>
>
> I think that=E2=80=99s a reasonable requirement =E2=80=93 if it is to be =
used for BIER (as
> you quoted from the draft). If it is not to be used for BIER, then of
> course there is no need to clarify its RC/RA semantics. The clarification
> would either be in its day-one specification, or a follow-up spec if it i=
s
> applied to BIER only later.
>
>
>
> Jeffrey
>
>
>
> *From:* Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 19, 2018 5:14 AM
> *To:* stig@venaas.com
> *Cc:* Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; gjshep@gmail.com;
> bier@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
>
>
>
> To the Authors,
>
>
>
> (Excerpts from the draft - Section 2)
>
> For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA,
>
> its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.
>
>
>
> Senthil //
>
> This statement is confusing.
>
> Any new IGP algorithm (allocated by IANA in IGP registry) would have alre=
ady defined the semantics clearly in the corresponding lsr document.
>
> Do you mean "for the new IGP algorithms to be used as BIER IPA", we again=
 need to specify the semantics (from BIER/Multicast per-se) in a separate d=
ocument which proposes "a IGP algorithm to be used for BIER IPA" ?
>
> If yes, why ?
>
> If no, may be we should remove above statement?, As its a pre-requisite f=
or any new IGP algorithm types and does't need explicit mention in this doc=
ument.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Senthil
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 5:01 AM Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com> wrote:
>
> Right, looks good to me,
>
> Stig
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 3:14 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:
> >
> > I meant the -03 revision.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
> > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 6:13 PM
> > > To: 'Stig Venaas' <stig@venaas.com>; Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>=
;
> > > 'Tony Przygienda' <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> > > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > > Subject: RE: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
> > >
> > > Hi Stig,
> > >
> > > I just submitted -04 revision and it should have addressed your
> comments
> > > (thank you for reviewing the diff beforehand).
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > Jeffrey
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Stig Venaas
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:23 PM
> > > > To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> > > > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
> > > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > I think the draft needs a little bit more work before publication.
> > > >
> > > > It's not clear to me what the contents of the BAR and IPA fields ar=
e.
> > > >
> > > > For BAR you say that it is BCBA and that for the currently defined
> > > > algorithm 0, BC and BA are both NULL. But if new BIER algorithms ar=
e
> > > > defined, how would you define BC? Is the idea that the values in th=
e
> > > > BIER algorithm registry signify both BC and BA? In that case the na=
me
> > > > is misleading.
> > > >
> > > > For IPA it is also not clear how you specify RC for the different
> > > > values of RA. The existing registry only specifies the RA.
> > > >
> > > > In section 1 it says:
> > > >    [To be added]
> > > > Will anything be added here?
> > > >
> > > > In section 2 it says:
> > > >
> > > >    In [RFC8401] and [I-D.ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions], an 8-bit
> BAR
> > > >    field and 8-bit IPA field are defined to signal the BIER specifi=
c
> > > >    algorithm and generic IGP Algorithm respectively and only value =
0
> is
> > > >    allowed for both fields currently.  This document specifies the
> > > >    general rules for the two fields and their interaction when
> either or
> > > >    both fields are not 0.
> > > >
> > > > I think the term "currently" will be confusing once this becomes an
> RFC.
> > > > "Currently" here talks about the situation prior to the publication
> of the
> > > > RFC, it would no longer be true after publication.
> > > >
> > > > Typo in the title.
> > > >
> > > > Typo: multit-topolgy
> > > >
> > > > Stig
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:55 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Today starts a WGLC two week timer for:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > > > 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dbier-2Dbar-2Dipa-
> > > > 2D02&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > > >
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > > > m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > > >
> > > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=3D9Up4dsFxMx0w5cbbj5c7DKimcRHUXcjL7EQw6mygnp
> > > > A&e=3D
> > > > >
> > > > > Please read and respond to this thread with/without support.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Shep
> > > > > (Chairs)
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > > >
> > > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6S=
cbf
> > > > h0UjBXeMK-
> > > >
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > > > m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > > > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-
> > > > WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=3D
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > BIER mailing list
> > > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > > >
> > > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6S=
cbf
> > > > h0UjBXeMK-
> > > >
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&
> > > > m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-
> > > > 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-
> > > > WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&e=3D
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_bier&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoC=
I&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&m=3D4RfYTy3X3VzttZF14AHr_=
oAeDYurzCe6xOA3MaSWre0&s=3Dhk9-yVxFjV5KkxhT6nRVMQ3OevGOFni4Yji2Rl51VsQ&e=3D=
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Jeffrey,<div><br></div><div>Let me try to be more speci=
fic.</div><div><br></div><div>Lets take IGP Flex Algo as an example. (refer=
 draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-01)</div><div>FlexAlgo can be defined locally and=
 [the Algorithm-Id &amp; the associated constraints ] shall be advertised v=
ia IGP using FAD TLV.</div><div><br></div><div>Assuming we have defined a n=
ew FlexAlgo=3D128 with &quot;constraints =3D exclude a specific color&quot;=
, and we want to use this constraints for BIER multicast path, then we just=
 need to specify BAR=3D0, IPA=3D128. Why do we need to specify the semantic=
s of FlexAlgo=3D128 explicitly for BIER/Multicast ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>I assume that in most of the cases, the Constraints/FlexAlgo define=
d for unicast traffic can be used as-is for Multicast path as well.</div><d=
iv>Cases, where we are required to define a constraint which is specific on=
ly to multicast paths (ex: less span-out&#39;s), we would define the &quot;=
new constraint&quot; as part of BCA in BAR (allocate the Id for BAR from BI=
ER Registry). Is&#39;t it ?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Sent=
hil</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:49 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:zzhang@juniper.net">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_9028419355587945710WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Senthil,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">I think that=E2=80=99s a reasonable requirement =E2=80=
=93 if it is to be used for BIER (as you quoted from the draft). If it is
 not to be used for BIER, then of course there is no need to clarify its RC=
/RA semantics. The clarification would either be in its day-one specificati=
on, or a follow-up spec if it is applied to BIER only later.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Jeffrey<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Senthil
 Dhanaraj &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 19, 2018 5:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank">stig@venaas=
.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net=
" target=3D"_blank">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bier@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To the Authors,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(Excerpts from the draft - Section 2)<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">For a new IGP =
Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">Senthil //<u><=
/u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">This statement=
 is confusing.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">Any new IGP al=
gorithm (allocated by IANA in IGP registry) would have already defined the =
semantics clearly in the corresponding lsr document.<u></u><u></u></span></=
pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">Do you mean &q=
uot;for the new IGP algorithms to be used as BIER IPA&quot;, we again need =
to specify the semantics (from BIER/Multicast per-se) in a separate documen=
t which proposes &quot;a IGP algorithm to be used for BIER IPA&quot; ?<u></=
u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">If yes, why ?<=
u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">If no, may be =
we should remove above statement?, As its a pre-requisite for any new IGP a=
lgorithm types and does&#39;t need explicit mention in this document.<u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">Thanks,<u></u>=
<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">Senthil<u></u>=
<u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 5:01 AM Stig Venaas &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" target=3D"_blank">stig@venaas.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Right, looks good to me,<br>
<br>
Stig<br>
<br>
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 3:14 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">zzhang@juniper.=
net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I meant the -03 revision.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 6:13 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;Stig Venaas&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stig@venaas.com" =
target=3D"_blank">stig@venaas.com</a>&gt;; Greg Shepherd &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;Tony Przygienda&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Stig,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I just submitted -04 revision and it should have addressed your c=
omments<br>
&gt; &gt; (thank you for reviewing the diff beforehand).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt; &gt; Jeffrey<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: BIER &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">bier-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Stig Venaas<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:23 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Greg Shepherd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I think the draft needs a little bit more work before public=
ation.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; It&#39;s not clear to me what the contents of the BAR and IP=
A fields are.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; For BAR you say that it is BCBA and that for the currently d=
efined<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; algorithm 0, BC and BA are both NULL. But if new BIER algori=
thms are<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; defined, how would you define BC? Is the idea that the value=
s in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; BIER algorithm registry signify both BC and BA? In that case=
 the name<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is misleading.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; For IPA it is also not clear how you specify RC for the diff=
erent<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; values of RA. The existing registry only specifies the RA.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; In section 1 it says:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [To be added]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Will anything be added here?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; In section 2 it says:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In [RFC8401] and [I-D.ietf-bier-ospf-bier-exten=
sions], an 8-bit BAR<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 field and 8-bit IPA field are defined to signal=
 the BIER specific<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm and generic IGP Algorithm respectivel=
y and only value 0 is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 allowed for both fields currently.=C2=A0 This d=
ocument specifies the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 general rules for the two fields and their inte=
raction when either or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 both fields are not 0.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I think the term &quot;currently&quot; will be confusing onc=
e this becomes an RFC.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Currently&quot; here talks about the situation prior t=
o the publication of the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; RFC, it would no longer be true after publication.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Typo in the title.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Typo: multit-topolgy<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Stig<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 7:55 AM Greg Shepherd &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Today starts a WGLC two week timer for:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-" target=3D"_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dbier-2Dbar-2Dipa-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 2D02&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZ=
qE&amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&amp;s=3D9Up4dsFxMx0w5cbbj5c7DKimcRHUXcjL7EQw6m=
ygnp<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; A&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Please read and respond to this thread with/without sup=
port.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Shep<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (Chairs)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER=
@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-" target=3D"_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAk=
Yuh63rsuhr6Scbf<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; h0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZ=
qE&amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&amp;s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&amp;e=3D<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf=
.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp=
s-" target=3D"_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DHAk=
Yuh63rsuhr6Scbf<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; h0UjBXeMK-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZ=
qE&amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; m=3DuNIw3ToxQY1ZhO84imJM9czs-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 8fEmjuqCxiqvu6ciEY&amp;s=3DTcDDTfwL4a4v6qxlh7BvKbIsDtm-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; WeF4RR8xqjpAIag&amp;e=3D<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_bier&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&amp;m=
=3D4RfYTy3X3VzttZF14AHr_oAeDYurzCe6xOA3MaSWre0&amp;s=3Dhk9-yVxFjV5KkxhT6nRV=
MQ3OevGOFni4Yji2Rl51VsQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/bier</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000005f90e5057b0540c0--


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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "stig@venaas.com" <stig@venaas.com>, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/EpxzWMaRXqXHN5-i4A36QbzBo3U>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa
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From: Eric Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>, "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
CC: Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/
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From: Suneesh <suneeshbk@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 22:53:50 +0530
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Subject: [Bier] Comments on draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-04
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--00000000000074a0f5057b07c8d3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Greg,

I have following comments on PMMM draft, please share your thoughts.

Q1. Can you please share how the draft is viewed as a hybrid model?

Ref: Section-3:

<snip>
   the marking method in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the
   hybrid performance measurement method
</snip>


Q2. Can you please define what is meant by sub-flows
   a). Is the sub-flow set of flows on which marking method is applied OR
   b). sub-flow-1 with say marking 0 and sub flow-2 with say marking 1 OR
   c). Being a hybrid model, draft proposes to duplicate the multicast
stream which is having marking and treated those as sub-flows?

Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation
<snip>
   Using the marking method a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the
   particular multicast traffic over BIER layer
</snip>


Q3. Is there any recommended values for 'number of packets' or/and 'time
duration' for alternate marking method
    a). Just to know what is recommended to avoid say number of
packets/time duration = 1

Q4. Lets say that the nodes is like A->B->C->D->F->G->H->I, the segment of
interest is B->C->D for performance measurement
  a). Does the alternate marking values will clear from node D onwards?
  b). If not, what is recommended if we wish to measure between G->H->I

Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation

<snip>
  Any combination of markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a
multicast flow by
  any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress point to
   perform node, link, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect
   performance degradation defect and localize it efficiently.
</snip>

Q5. Can we somewhere capture that 'proto' field of BIER header should not
be "OAM request/reply", though we are using OAM bits in header.

<snip>
   The OAM field MUST be used only
   for the performance measurement of data traffic in BIER layer.
</snip>


Regards,
Suneesh

--00000000000074a0f5057b07c8d3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Greg,</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=
I have following comments on PMMM draft, please share your thoughts.</div><=
div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q1. Can you please share how the draft is viewed as a =
hybrid model?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Section-3:</div><div>=C2=A0</=
div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the marking method in BIER lay=
er can be viewed as the example of the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0hybrid perfor=
mance measurement method</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><div>Q2. Can you please define what is meant by sub-flows</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0a). Is the sub-flow set of flows on which marking method=
 is applied OR</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0b). sub-flow-1 with say marking 0 and=
 sub flow-2 with say marking 1 OR</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0c). Being a hybrid=
 model, draft proposes to duplicate the multicast stream which is having ma=
rking and treated those as sub-flows?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Secti=
on-4: Theory of Operation</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Usi=
ng the marking method a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0particular multicast traffic over BIER layer</div><div>&lt;/snip&=
gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q3. Is there an=
y recommended values for &#39;number of packets&#39; or/and &#39;time durat=
ion&#39; for alternate marking method</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a). Just to k=
now what is recommended to avoid say number of packets/time duration =3D 1<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>Q4. Lets say that the nodes is like A-&gt=
;B-&gt;C-&gt;D-&gt;F-&gt;G-&gt;H-&gt;I, the segment of interest is B-&gt;C-=
&gt;D for performance measurement</div><div>=C2=A0 a). Does the alternate m=
arking values will clear from node D onwards?</div><div>=C2=A0 b). If not, =
what is recommended if we wish to measure between G-&gt;H-&gt;I</div><div>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation</div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 Any combination of markings,=
 Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a multicast flow by</div><div>=C2=A0 =
any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress point to</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0perform node, link, segment or end-to-end measurement to d=
etect</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0performance degradation defect and localize it=
 efficiently.</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q5. Can we=
 somewhere capture that &#39;proto&#39; field of BIER header should not be =
&quot;OAM request/reply&quot;, though we are using OAM bits in header.</div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The OAM field MU=
ST be used only</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the performance measurement of d=
ata traffic in BIER layer.</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Suneesh</div></div></div>

--00000000000074a0f5057b07c8d3--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:37:17 -0800
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To: suneeshbk@gmail.com
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, Vero Zheng <vero.zheng@huawei.com>,  Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>,  "Fioccola Giuseppe (giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it)" <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>, suneesh@juniper.net
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-04
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Hi Suneesh,
thank you for the feedback and the detailed questions. Please find my
responses and notes in-line below tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:24 AM Suneesh <suneeshbk@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> I have following comments on PMMM draft, please share your thoughts.
>
> Q1. Can you please share how the draft is viewed as a hybrid model?
>
GIM>> RFC 7799 provided the definition of active and passive measurement
methods. Hybrid methods are "in between" these two groups. Even though the
Alternate marking in BIER domain may use already preallocated field, it
does change the content of the header by applying the marking values in the
OAM field. Thus it is neither passive, nor active method but "in between",
i.e., hybrid. Would you agree?

>
> Ref: Section-3:
>
> <snip>
>    the marking method in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the
>    hybrid performance measurement method
> </snip>
>
>
> Q2. Can you please define what is meant by sub-flows
>    a). Is the sub-flow set of flows on which marking method is applied OR
>    b). sub-flow-1 with say marking 0 and sub flow-2 with say marking 1 OR
>    c). Being a hybrid model, draft proposes to duplicate the multicast
> stream which is having marking and treated those as sub-flows?
>
GIM>> We use the term "sub-flow" as you've described in b).

>
> Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation
> <snip>
>    Using the marking method a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the
>    particular multicast traffic over BIER layer
> </snip>
>
>
> Q3. Is there any recommended values for 'number of packets' or/and 'time
> duration' for alternate marking method
>     a). Just to know what is recommended to avoid say number of
> packets/time duration = 1
>
GIM>> You're right, 1 or even 2 would not be useful. 3 packets? May be.

>
> Q4. Lets say that the nodes is like A->B->C->D->F->G->H->I, the segment of
> interest is B->C->D for performance measurement
>   a). Does the alternate marking values will clear from node D onwards?
>   b). If not, what is recommended if we wish to measure between G->H->I
>
GIM>> Very good question. It is expected that the marking values be cleared
at the edge of BIER domain and thus an operator may enable measurements on
segment G-H-I at any time.

>
> Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation
>
> <snip>
>   Any combination of markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a
> multicast flow by
>   any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress point to
>    perform node, link, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect
>    performance degradation defect and localize it efficiently.
> </snip>
>
> Q5. Can we somewhere capture that 'proto' field of BIER header should not
> be "OAM request/reply", though we are using OAM bits in header.
>
> <snip>
>    The OAM field MUST be used only
>    for the performance measurement of data traffic in BIER layer.
> </snip>
>
>
GIM>> I think it would be too restrictive. One may want to measure
performance of BIER OAM.

>
> Regards,
> Suneesh
>

--000000000000d280d8057b310abd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Suneesh,<div>thank you for the=C2=A0feedback and the de=
tailed=C2=A0questions. Please find my responses and notes in-line below tag=
ged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:24 AM=
 Suneesh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:suneeshbk@gmail.com">suneeshbk@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Greg,</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>I have following commen=
ts on PMMM draft, please share your thoughts.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q1=
. Can you please share how the draft is viewed as a hybrid model?</div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 7799 provided the definition of a=
ctive and passive measurement methods. Hybrid methods are &quot;in between&=
quot; these two groups. Even though the Alternate marking in BIER domain ma=
y use already preallocated field, it does change the content of the header =
by applying the marking values in the OAM field. Thus it is neither passive=
, nor active method but &quot;in between&quot;, i.e., hybrid. Would you agr=
ee?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Section-3:</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&lt;s=
nip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the marking method in BIER layer can be view=
ed as the example of the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0hybrid performance measurem=
ent method</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
div>Q2. Can you please define what is meant by sub-flows</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0a). Is the sub-flow set of flows on which marking method is applied O=
R</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0b). sub-flow-1 with say marking 0 and sub flow-2 w=
ith say marking 1 OR</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0c). Being a hybrid model, draft=
 proposes to duplicate the multicast stream which is having marking and tre=
ated those as sub-flows?</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; We =
use the term &quot;sub-flow&quot; as you&#39;ve described in b).=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=
=A0</div><div>Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using the marking method a BFR creates distinct sub-fl=
ows in the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0particular multicast traffic over BIER la=
yer</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</=
div><div>Q3. Is there any recommended values for &#39;number of packets&#39=
; or/and &#39;time duration&#39; for alternate marking method</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 a). Just to know what is recommended to avoid say number of pack=
ets/time duration =3D 1</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&=
#39;re right, 1 or even 2 would not be useful. 3 packets? May be.=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>Q4. Lets say that the nodes is like A-&gt;B-&gt;C-&gt;=
D-&gt;F-&gt;G-&gt;H-&gt;I, the segment of interest is B-&gt;C-&gt;D for per=
formance measurement</div><div>=C2=A0 a). Does the alternate marking values=
 will clear from node D onwards?</div><div>=C2=A0 b). If not, what is recom=
mended if we wish to measure between G-&gt;H-&gt;I</div></div></div></block=
quote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Very good question. It is expected that the marking =
values be cleared at the edge of BIER domain and thus an operator may enabl=
e measurements on segment G-H-I at any time.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Se=
ction-4: Theory of Operation</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;=C2=A0<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 Any combination of markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be app=
lied to a multicast flow by</div><div>=C2=A0 any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR=
) at either ingress or egress point to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0perform node,=
 link, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0p=
erformance degradation defect and localize it efficiently.</div><div>&lt;/s=
nip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q5. Can we somewhere capture that &#39;p=
roto&#39; field of BIER header should not be &quot;OAM request/reply&quot;,=
 though we are using OAM bits in header.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&lt;sni=
p&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The OAM field MUST be used only</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0for the performance measurement of data traffic in BIER layer.</d=
iv><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div>G=
IM&gt;&gt; I think it would be too restrictive. One may want to measure per=
formance of BIER OAM.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Suneesh</di=
v></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000d280d8057b310abd--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:39:46 -0800
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Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, Vero Zheng <vero.zheng@huawei.com>,  Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, suneesh@juniper.net,  Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>
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Now with the updated address to reach Giuseppe.

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Suneesh,
> thank you for the feedback and the detailed questions. Please find my
> responses and notes in-line below tagged GIM>>.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:24 AM Suneesh <suneeshbk@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> I have following comments on PMMM draft, please share your thoughts.
>>
>> Q1. Can you please share how the draft is viewed as a hybrid model?
>>
> GIM>> RFC 7799 provided the definition of active and passive measurement
> methods. Hybrid methods are "in between" these two groups. Even though the
> Alternate marking in BIER domain may use already preallocated field, it
> does change the content of the header by applying the marking values in the
> OAM field. Thus it is neither passive, nor active method but "in between",
> i.e., hybrid. Would you agree?
>
>>
>> Ref: Section-3:
>>
>> <snip>
>>    the marking method in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the
>>    hybrid performance measurement method
>> </snip>
>>
>>
>> Q2. Can you please define what is meant by sub-flows
>>    a). Is the sub-flow set of flows on which marking method is applied OR
>>    b). sub-flow-1 with say marking 0 and sub flow-2 with say marking 1 OR
>>    c). Being a hybrid model, draft proposes to duplicate the multicast
>> stream which is having marking and treated those as sub-flows?
>>
> GIM>> We use the term "sub-flow" as you've described in b).
>
>>
>> Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation
>> <snip>
>>    Using the marking method a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the
>>    particular multicast traffic over BIER layer
>> </snip>
>>
>>
>> Q3. Is there any recommended values for 'number of packets' or/and 'time
>> duration' for alternate marking method
>>     a). Just to know what is recommended to avoid say number of
>> packets/time duration = 1
>>
> GIM>> You're right, 1 or even 2 would not be useful. 3 packets? May be.
>
>>
>> Q4. Lets say that the nodes is like A->B->C->D->F->G->H->I, the segment
>> of interest is B->C->D for performance measurement
>>   a). Does the alternate marking values will clear from node D onwards?
>>   b). If not, what is recommended if we wish to measure between G->H->I
>>
> GIM>> Very good question. It is expected that the marking values be
> cleared at the edge of BIER domain and thus an operator may enable
> measurements on segment G-H-I at any time.
>
>>
>> Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation
>>
>> <snip>
>>   Any combination of markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a
>> multicast flow by
>>   any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress point to
>>    perform node, link, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect
>>    performance degradation defect and localize it efficiently.
>> </snip>
>>
>> Q5. Can we somewhere capture that 'proto' field of BIER header should not
>> be "OAM request/reply", though we are using OAM bits in header.
>>
>> <snip>
>>    The OAM field MUST be used only
>>    for the performance measurement of data traffic in BIER layer.
>> </snip>
>>
>>
> GIM>> I think it would be too restrictive. One may want to measure
> performance of BIER OAM.
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Suneesh
>>
>

--000000000000b3be05057b31139d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Now with the updated address to reach Giuseppe.</div><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM=
 Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">Hi Suneesh,<div>thank you for the=C2=A0feedback and the detailed=C2=A0que=
stions. Please find my responses and notes in-line below tagged GIM&gt;&gt;=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:24 AM Suneesh &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:suneeshbk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">suneeshbk@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Greg,</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>I have following com=
ments on PMMM draft, please share your thoughts.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div=
>Q1. Can you please share how the draft is viewed as a hybrid model?</div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 7799 provided the definition o=
f active and passive measurement methods. Hybrid methods are &quot;in betwe=
en&quot; these two groups. Even though the Alternate marking in BIER domain=
 may use already preallocated field, it does change the content of the head=
er by applying the marking values in the OAM field. Thus it is neither pass=
ive, nor active method but &quot;in between&quot;, i.e., hybrid. Would you =
agree?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Section-3:</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&=
lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the marking method in BIER layer can be =
viewed as the example of the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0hybrid performance meas=
urement method</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><div>Q2. Can you please define what is meant by sub-flows</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0a). Is the sub-flow set of flows on which marking method is appli=
ed OR</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0b). sub-flow-1 with say marking 0 and sub flow=
-2 with say marking 1 OR</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0c). Being a hybrid model, d=
raft proposes to duplicate the multicast stream which is having marking and=
 treated those as sub-flows?</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt;=
 We use the term &quot;sub-flow&quot; as you&#39;ve described in b).=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using the marking method a BFR creates distinct sub=
-flows in the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0particular multicast traffic over BIER=
 layer</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><div>Q3. Is there any recommended values for &#39;number of packet=
s&#39; or/and &#39;time duration&#39; for alternate marking method</div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a). Just to know what is recommended to avoid say number of=
 packets/time duration =3D 1</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt;=
 You&#39;re right, 1 or even 2 would not be useful. 3 packets? May be.=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>Q4. Lets say that the nodes is like A-&gt;B-&gt=
;C-&gt;D-&gt;F-&gt;G-&gt;H-&gt;I, the segment of interest is B-&gt;C-&gt;D =
for performance measurement</div><div>=C2=A0 a). Does the alternate marking=
 values will clear from node D onwards?</div><div>=C2=A0 b). If not, what i=
s recommended if we wish to measure between G-&gt;H-&gt;I</div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Very good question. It is expected that the m=
arking values be cleared at the edge of BIER domain and thus an operator ma=
y enable measurements on segment G-H-I at any time.</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div=
>Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&lt;snip&gt=
;=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 Any combination of markings, Loss and/or Delay, ca=
n be applied to a multicast flow by</div><div>=C2=A0 any Bit Forwarding Rou=
ter (BFR) at either ingress or egress point to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0perfo=
rm node, link, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0performance degradation defect and localize it efficiently.</div><di=
v>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q5. Can we somewhere capture tha=
t &#39;proto&#39; field of BIER header should not be &quot;OAM request/repl=
y&quot;, though we are using OAM bits in header.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div=
>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The OAM field MUST be used only</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the performance measurement of data traffic in BIER la=
yer.</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote=
><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I think it would be too restrictive. One may want to meas=
ure performance of BIER OAM.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Sune=
esh</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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Hi Folks,

Posted a new draft -  ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non-MPLS Networks .
Kindly read and provide your comments/Suggestions.

Note: For a quick look, you can refer the attached PPT instead as well.

Thanks,
Senthil


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:21 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for
draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
To: Jingrong Xie <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, Gang Yan <yangang@huawei.com>,
Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com>,
Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Senthil Dhanaraj and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions
Revision:       00
Title:          ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non-MPLS Networks
Document date:  2018-11-23
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          9
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions


Abstract:
   Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) [RFC8279] is an architecture
   that provides multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without
   requiring intermediate routers to maintain multicast related per-flow
   state.  BIER can be supported in MPLS and non-MPLS networks.  The
   common BIER header format and encapsulation for MPLS and non-MPLS
   networks is specified in [RFC8296].

   BIER in Ethernet encapsulation is an example of BIER encapsulation in
   non-MPLS networks.

   [RFC8401] specifies the required extensions to the IS-IS [RFC1195]
   protocol for the distribution of BIER sub-domain information
   including the Sub-sub-TLV required to support BIER in MPLS
   encapsulation for MPLS networks.

   This document specifies the required extensions to the IS-IS
   [RFC1195] protocol for supporting BIER in non-MPLS networks using
   BIER in Ethernet encapsulation.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--000000000000a5aea3057b640a80
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Folks,<div><br></div><div>Posted a new draft -=C2=A0

ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non-MPLS Networks=C2=A0.</div><div>Kindly read =
and provide your comments/Suggestions.</div><div><br></div><div>Note: For a=
 quick look, you can refer the attached PPT instead as well.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Senthil</div><div>=C2=A0<br><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>Fro=
m: <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">intern=
et-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:21 PM<br=
>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-ex=
tensions-00.txt<br>To: Jingrong Xie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawe=
i.com">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;, Gang Yan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yanga=
ng@huawei.com">yangang@huawei.com</a>&gt;, Peter Psenak &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:ppsenak@cisco.com">ppsenak@cisco.com</a>&gt;, IJsbrand Wijnands &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ice@cisco.com">ice@cisco.com</a>&gt;, Senthil Dhanaraj &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com">senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt<b=
r>
has been successfully submitted by Senthil Dhanaraj and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-=
mpls-extensions<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non-MP=
LS Networks<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2018-11-23<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 9<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draf=
t-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions/" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isi=
s-non-mpls-extensions/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-e=
xtensions-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-dhanaraj-bier=
-isis-non-mpls-extensions</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) [RFC8279] is an architec=
ture<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that provides multicast forwarding through a &quot;BIER domain=
&quot; without<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0requiring intermediate routers to maintain multicast related p=
er-flow<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0state.=C2=A0 BIER can be supported in MPLS and non-MPLS networ=
ks.=C2=A0 The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0common BIER header format and encapsulation for MPLS and non-M=
PLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0networks is specified in [RFC8296].<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER in Ethernet encapsulation is an example of BIER encapsula=
tion in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0non-MPLS networks.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8401] specifies the required extensions to the IS-IS [RFC1=
195]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol for the distribution of BIER sub-domain information<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0including the Sub-sub-TLV required to support BIER in MPLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation for MPLS networks.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the required extensions to the IS-IS<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC1195] protocol for supporting BIER in non-MPLS networks us=
ing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER in Ethernet encapsulation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div></div></div>

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From: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 15:48:26 +0530
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Initial Shepherd's comment regarding draft-ietf-bier-ping
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A comment/suggestion on the draft (Sorry to mix it up with the Shepherd's
review chain) !

I believe, the mechanism prescribed by the draft would be applicable and
can be used as is for non-MPLS networks as well (ex: BIER-ETH).
Considering this, We should change the description "BIER-MPLS Label" (in
various sections of the draft) to "BIFT-id" ?

Thanks,
Senthil


On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 5:05 AM Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <
mankamis@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Authors,
>
> This document is generally in good shape. Have few comments as part of
> initial shepherd review.
>
>
>
>
>
> 3.1. BIER OAM message format
>
> Proto This field is used to define if there is any data packet immediatel=
y
> following the OAM payload which is used for passive Kumar, et al. Expires
> April 24, 2019 [Page 4] Internet-Draft BIER Ping October 2018 OAM
> functionality. This field is set to 0 if there is no data packet followin=
g
> OAM payload.
>
>
>
> *Comment*: Are we expecting to have different value for proto field in
> future ?   Can you please add some more detail here ?
>
>
>
> QTF Querier Timestamp Format. When set to 2, the Timestamp Sent field is
> (in seconds and microseconds, according to the Initiator=E2=80=99s clock)=
 in NTP
> format [RFC5905]. When set to 3, the timestamp format is in IEEE 1588-200=
8
> (1588v2) Precision Time Protocol format. Any other value SHOULD be
> considered as sanity check
>
>
>
> *Comment: In future, do we expect some other values here ?  are we
> registering this field also with IANA ? *
>
>
>
> Return subcode To Be updated.
>
>
>
> *Comment: Can you please update the document ? *
>
>
>
> 3.2. Return Code
>
> 10 DDMAP Mismatch
>
>
>
> *Comment: *
>
>    1. *Can you please add detail about what is this Return code ?  *
>    2. *If TTL expires, what would be return code used by intermediate
>    node ? *
>
>
>
> When I flag is set, the Responding BFR SHOULD include the Incoming
> SI-BitString TLV in Echo Reply message.
>
> *Comment :  I think MUST would be more appropriate instead of SHOULD here
> ? *
>
>
>
> 3.3.4.1.1. Multipath Entropy Data
>
> *Comment: Here M flag is using left most bit where as I was in previous
> section using right most bit of flag.  Should it also not be right most b=
it
> ? *
>
>
>
> 4. Procedures This section describes aspects of Ping and traceroute
> operations. While this document explains the behavior when Reply mode is
> "Reply via BIER packet", the future version will be updated with details
> about the format when the reply mode is "Reply via IP/UDP packet".
>
> *Comment: Does it mean, new document in future ? or this document is goin=
g
> to get updated more ?*
>
>
>
> [RFC8296] proposes the BIER header with Entropy field that can be
> leveraged to exercise all ECMP paths. The Initiator/BFIR will use
> traceroute message to query each hop about the Entropy information for ea=
ch
> downstream paths. To avoid complexity, it is suggested that the ECMP quer=
y
> is performed per BFER by carrying required information in BIER OAM messag=
e.
>
>
>
> *Comment: Is this document not talking only about Ping ? I see some
> mention of Traceroute in document.  If traceroute procedure is also
> expected to be in this document, can we add some moreo detail about
> procedure ?*
>
>
>
> 4.4. Receiving BIER Echo Request Sending a BIER OAM Echo Request to
> control plane for payload processing is triggered as mentioned in section
> 4.1. Any BFR on receiving Echo Request MUST send Echo Reply with Return
> Code set to "Malformed Echo Request received", if the packet fails sanity
> check. If the packet sanity check is fine, it SHOULD initiate the below s=
et
> of variables:
>
> *Comment: Can you please add detail about what sanity check we are talkin=
g
> here ? *
>
>
>
> 4.5. Sending Echo Reply If Reply-Flag=3D0; BFR MUST release the variables
> and MUST not send any response to the Initiator. If Reply-Flag=3D1, proce=
ed
> as below:
>
> *Comment: You might want to consider to have subsection of each
> reply-flag. *
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Mankamana
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

--000000000000c5bc8f057b8ea31a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">A comment/suggestion on the draft (Sorry =
to mix it up with the Shepherd&#39;s review chain) !<div><br></div><div><di=
v>I believe, the mechanism prescribed by the draft would be applicable and =
can be used as is for non-MPLS networks as well (ex: BIER-ETH).<br></div><d=
iv>Considering this, We should change the description &quot;BIER-MPLS Label=
&quot; (in various sections of the draft) to &quot;BIFT-id&quot; ?</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Senthil</div><div><br></div></div></div>=
</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 =
at 5:05 AM Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mankamis@cisco=
.com">mankamis@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_1412939920519527425WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi Authors, <u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">This document is ge=
nerally in good shape. Have few comments as part of initial shepherd review=
.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">3.1. BIER OAM messa=
ge format<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Proto This field is=
 used to define if there is any data packet immediately following the OAM p=
ayload which is used for passive Kumar, et al. Expires April 24, 2019 [Page=
 4] Internet-Draft BIER Ping October
 2018 OAM functionality. This field is set to 0 if there is no data packet =
following OAM payload.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47">Co=
mment</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47">: Are we exp=
ecting to have different value for proto field in future ? =C2=A0=C2=A0Can =
you please add some more detail here ?
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">QTF Querier Timesta=
mp Format. When set to 2, the Timestamp Sent field is (in seconds and micro=
seconds, according to the Initiator=E2=80=99s clock) in NTP format [RFC5905=
]. When set to 3, the timestamp format is in
 IEEE 1588-2008 (1588v2) Precision Time Protocol format. Any other value SH=
OULD be considered as sanity check<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47">Co=
mment: In future, do we expect some other values here ?=C2=A0 are we regist=
ering this field also with IANA ?
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Return subcode To B=
e updated.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47">Co=
mment: Can you please update the document ?
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">3.2. Return Code<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">10 DDMAP Mismatch<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47">Co=
mment: <u></u>
<u></u></span></b></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"m_1412939920519527425MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#70ad47;=
margin-left:0in">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Can you please add detail about what is=
 this Return code ? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></b></li><li class=3D"m_1412=
939920519527425MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:#70ad47;margin-left:0in">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">If TTL expires, what would be return co=
de used by intermediate node ?
<u></u><u></u></span></b></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">When I flag is set,=
 the Responding BFR SHOULD include the Incoming SI-BitString TLV in Echo Re=
ply message.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47">Co=
mment : =C2=A0I think MUST would be more appropriate instead of SHOULD here=
 ?
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">3.3.4.1.1. Multipat=
h Entropy Data<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#70ad47">Co=
mment: Here M flag is using left most bit where as I was in previous sectio=
n using right most bit of flag.=C2=A0 Should it also not be right most bit =
?
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">4. Procedures This =
section describes aspects of Ping and traceroute operations. While this doc=
ument explains the behavior when Reply mode is &quot;Reply via BIER packet&=
quot;, the future version will be updated with
 details about the format when the reply mode is &quot;Reply via IP/UDP pac=
ket&quot;.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47">Comment: Does it mean, new document in future ? =
or this document is going to get updated more ?<u></u><u></u></span></b></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">[RFC8296] proposes =
the BIER header with Entropy field that can be leveraged to exercise all EC=
MP paths. The Initiator/BFIR will use traceroute message to query each hop =
about the Entropy information for each
 downstream paths. To avoid complexity, it is suggested that the ECMP query=
 is performed per BFER by carrying required information in BIER OAM message=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47">Comment: Is this document not talking only about=
 Ping ? I see some mention of Traceroute in document.=C2=A0 If traceroute p=
rocedure is also expected to be in this document, can
 we add some moreo detail about procedure ?<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">4.4. Receiving BIER=
 Echo Request Sending a BIER OAM Echo Request to control plane for payload =
processing is triggered as mentioned in section 4.1. Any BFR on receiving E=
cho Request MUST send Echo Reply with
 Return Code set to &quot;Malformed Echo Request received&quot;, if the pac=
ket fails sanity check. If the packet sanity check is fine, it SHOULD initi=
ate the below set of variables:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47">Comment: Can you please add detail about what sa=
nity check we are talking here ?
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">4.5. Sending Echo R=
eply If Reply-Flag=3D0; BFR MUST release the variables and MUST not send an=
y response to the Initiator. If Reply-Flag=3D1, proceed as below:<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47">Comment: You might want to consider to have subs=
ection of each reply-flag.
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,serif;color:#70ad47"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,serif">Thanks <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,serif">Mankamana <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: "Purkayastha, Debashish" <Debashish.Purkayastha@InterDigital.com>
To: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Bier] draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-response
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Dear Chairs and WG members,

Thanks for the great discussion in IETF 103, related to the draft "draft-pu=
rkayastha-bier-multicast-http-response". We will like to request comments/s=
uggestion on how to move this document further for WG adoption.
We will be glad to address any suggested updates, clarifications etc. to ma=
ke the document more relevant, clear and readable.

Thanks
Debashish.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Chairs and WG members,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the great discussion in IETF 103, related=
 to the draft &#8220;draft-purkayastha-bier-multicast-http-response&#8220;.=
 We will like to request comments/suggestion on how to move this document f=
urther for WG adoption.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We will be glad to address any suggested updates, cl=
arifications etc. to make the document more relevant, clear and readable.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Debashish.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: Suneesh <suneeshbk@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 22:01:20 +0530
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam-04
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Thanks Greg for the update, please find my comments inline below.

Regards,
Suneesh

On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:09 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Now with the updated address to reach Giuseppe.
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Suneesh,
>> thank you for the feedback and the detailed questions. Please find my
>> responses and notes in-line below tagged GIM>>.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:24 AM Suneesh <suneeshbk@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Greg,
>>>
>>> I have following comments on PMMM draft, please share your thoughts.
>>>
>>> Q1. Can you please share how the draft is viewed as a hybrid model?
>>>
>> GIM>> RFC 7799 provided the definition of active and passive measurement
>> methods. Hybrid methods are "in between" these two groups. Even though the
>> Alternate marking in BIER domain may use already preallocated field, it
>> does change the content of the header by applying the marking values in the
>> OAM field. Thus it is neither passive, nor active method but "in between",
>> i.e., hybrid. Would you agree?
>>
> Suneesh>>> Agreed

>
>>> Ref: Section-3:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>    the marking method in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the
>>>    hybrid performance measurement method
>>> </snip>
>>>
>>>
>>> Q2. Can you please define what is meant by sub-flows
>>>    a). Is the sub-flow set of flows on which marking method is applied OR
>>>    b). sub-flow-1 with say marking 0 and sub flow-2 with say marking 1 OR
>>>    c). Being a hybrid model, draft proposes to duplicate the multicast
>>> stream which is having marking and treated those as sub-flows?
>>>
>> GIM>> We use the term "sub-flow" as you've described in b).
>>
> Suneesh>>> Would be great if we can capture in the draft for more clarity

> Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation
>>> <snip>
>>>    Using the marking method a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the
>>>    particular multicast traffic over BIER layer
>>> </snip>
>>>
>>>
>>> Q3. Is there any recommended values for 'number of packets' or/and 'time
>>> duration' for alternate marking method
>>>     a). Just to know what is recommended to avoid say number of
>>> packets/time duration = 1
>>>
>> GIM>> You're right, 1 or even 2 would not be useful. 3 packets? May be.
>>
>>>
>>> Q4. Lets say that the nodes is like A->B->C->D->F->G->H->I, the segment
>>> of interest is B->C->D for performance measurement
>>>   a). Does the alternate marking values will clear from node D onwards?
>>>   b). If not, what is recommended if we wish to measure between G->H->I
>>>
>> GIM>> Very good question. It is expected that the marking values be
>> cleared at the edge of BIER domain and thus an operator may enable
>> measurements on segment G-H-I at any time.
>>
> Suneesh>> Please consider adding it to the draft

>
>>> Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operation
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>   Any combination of markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a
>>> multicast flow by
>>>   any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress point to
>>>    perform node, link, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect
>>>    performance degradation defect and localize it efficiently.
>>> </snip>
>>>
>>> Q5. Can we somewhere capture that 'proto' field of BIER header should
>>> not be "OAM request/reply", though we are using OAM bits in header.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>    The OAM field MUST be used only
>>>    for the performance measurement of data traffic in BIER layer.
>>> </snip>
>>>
>>>
>> GIM>> I think it would be too restrictive. One may want to measure
>> performance of BIER OAM.
>>
> Suneesh >>> I understood your point. Thanks.


> Regards,
>>> Suneesh
>>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Greg for the update, please find my comments inline=
 below.<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Suneesh<br><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:09 AM Greg Mirsky =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Now with th=
e updated address to reach Giuseppe.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sunee=
sh,<div>thank you for the=C2=A0feedback and the detailed=C2=A0questions. Pl=
ease find my responses and notes in-line below tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:24 AM Suneesh &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:suneeshbk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">suneeshbk@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div>Hi Greg,</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>I have following comments on P=
MMM draft, please share your thoughts.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q1. Can y=
ou please share how the draft is viewed as a hybrid model?</div></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; RFC 7799 provided the definition of active a=
nd passive measurement methods. Hybrid methods are &quot;in between&quot; t=
hese two groups. Even though the Alternate marking in BIER domain may use a=
lready preallocated field, it does change the content of the header by appl=
ying the marking values in the OAM field. Thus it is neither passive, nor a=
ctive method but &quot;in between&quot;, i.e., hybrid. Would you agree?=C2=
=A0</div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div>Suneesh&gt;&gt;&g=
t; Agreed=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Section-3:</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the marking method in BIER layer can be viewed as the =
example of the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0hybrid performance measurement method=
</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q2. Ca=
n you please define what is meant by sub-flows</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0a). I=
s the sub-flow set of flows on which marking method is applied OR</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0b). sub-flow-1 with say marking 0 and sub flow-2 with say mar=
king 1 OR</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0c). Being a hybrid model, draft proposes t=
o duplicate the multicast stream which is having marking and treated those =
as sub-flows?</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; We use the ter=
m &quot;sub-flow&quot; as you&#39;ve described in b).=C2=A0</div></div></di=
v></blockquote></div></blockquote><div>Suneesh&gt;&gt;&gt; Would be great i=
f we can capture in the draft for more clarity=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Ref: Section-4: Theory of Operati=
on</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using the marking method a=
 BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0particular mu=
lticast traffic over BIER layer</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Q3. Is there any recommended values fo=
r &#39;number of packets&#39; or/and &#39;time duration&#39; for alternate =
marking method</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a). Just to know what is recommended=
 to avoid say number of packets/time duration =3D 1</div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, 1 or even 2 would not be useful. =
3 packets? May be.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>Q4. Lets say that the node=
s is like A-&gt;B-&gt;C-&gt;D-&gt;F-&gt;G-&gt;H-&gt;I, the segment of inter=
est is B-&gt;C-&gt;D for performance measurement</div><div>=C2=A0 a). Does =
the alternate marking values will clear from node D onwards?</div><div>=C2=
=A0 b). If not, what is recommended if we wish to measure between G-&gt;H-&=
gt;I</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Very good question. It =
is expected that the marking values be cleared at the edge of BIER domain a=
nd thus an operator may enable measurements on segment G-H-I at any time.</=
div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div>Suneesh&gt;&gt; Please=
 consider adding it to the draft=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Ref: Section-4: Theory o=
f Operation</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =
Any combination of markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a multica=
st flow by</div><div>=C2=A0 any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingre=
ss or egress point to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0perform node, link, segment or=
 end-to-end measurement to detect</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0performance degrad=
ation defect and localize it efficiently.</div><div>&lt;/snip&gt;</div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><div>Q5. Can we somewhere capture that &#39;proto&#39; field o=
f BIER header should not be &quot;OAM request/reply&quot;, though we are us=
ing OAM bits in header.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>&lt;snip&gt;</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The OAM field MUST be used only</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the=
 performance measurement of data traffic in BIER layer.</div><div>&lt;/snip=
&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I thin=
k it would be too restrictive. One may want to measure performance of BIER =
OAM.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div>Suneesh &g=
t;&gt;&gt; I understood your point. Thanks.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Regards,</div><div>Suneesh<=
/div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000a41b54057b93ddab--


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Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-php-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BIER Penultimate Hop Popping
        Author          : Zhaohui Zhang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-php-01.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2018-11-28

Abstract:
   Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) can be used as provider tunnel
   for MVPN/GTM [RFC6514] [RFC7716] or EVPN BUM [RFC7432].  It is
   possible that not all routers in the provider network support BIER
   and there are various methods to handle BIER incapable transit
   routers.  However the MVPN/EVPN PEs are assumed to be BIER capable -
   they are BFIRs/BFERs.  This document specifies a method to allow BIER
   incapable routers to act as MVPN/EVPN PEs with BIER as the transport,
   by having the upstream BFR (connected directly or indirectly via a
   tunnel) of a PE remove the BIER header and send the payload to the
   PE.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-php/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-php-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 13:45:32 -0800
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Subject: [Bier] BIER IETF 103 Minutes
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WG,

The WG meeting minutes are now posted:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-103-bier/

Sorry for the delay. I'll be following up with adoption call emails on the
drafts that showed support in the room.

Cheers,
Shep
(Chairs)

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">WG,<div><br></div><div>The WG meeting min=
utes are now posted:</div><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
minutes-103-bier/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-103-bier/</a><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div>Sorry for the delay. I&#39;ll be following up w=
ith adoption call emails on the drafts that showed support in the room.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Shep</div><div>(Chairs)</div></div>=
</div>

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To: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Bier] [BIER] New draft - ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non MPLS Networks // Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/6zSSvCOg6ALDT3t_SsfrqD_Pvhc>
Subject: Re: [Bier] [BIER] New draft - ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non MPLS Networks // Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
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From: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 10:58:20 +0530
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Subject: Re: [Bier] [BIER] New draft - ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non MPLS Networks // Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
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Hi Jeffrey,

My Comments inline !

Thanks,
Senthil

On Sat, Dec 1, 2018 at 12:13 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net=
>
wrote:

> Hi Senthil,
>
>
>
> I see that the posted draft is very different from a preview copy that we
> discussed, and the concept is the same as in section 3 and 4 of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-bier-rift-00. An informational
> reference should be added.
>
Senthil // I guess the updated text for BIFT-ID is encoding is discussed &
shared, but perhaps the updated draft is not ! Yes, shall add reference to
the RIFT draft (DC Networks) which is in-fact a direct use case of BIER in
non-MPLS networks.

>
>
> Two questions/comments:
>
>
>
>    Processing and forwarding of multicast packets using the BIER-ETH
>
>    encapsulation requires special software and hardware capabilities.
>
>    The BFRs supporting this encapsulation type MUST advertise this
>
>    capability (along with the other required parameters specific to the
>
>    encapsulation) to the other routers in BIER domain.
>
>
>
> If static BIFT-ID assignment is used as in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01,
> should we still advertise a BIER Info sub-TLV with Ethernet Encap
> sub-sub-TLV, perhaps with MaxSI and starting BIFT-ID all being 0? This is
> also a question for the authors of that draft.
>

Senthil // Setting BIFT-ID to 0 (for Section 5 The Non-MPLS Static
BSL-SD-SI BIFT Encoding in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01) is
an option. But then, advertising the actual BIFT-ID comes at no additional
cost and might help in detecting badly or miss- configured BFRs in the
network.
-

>    A BIER sub-domain MAY support multiple BIER encapsulation types like
>
>    BIER-MPLS, BIER-ETH.  Within a BIER sub-domain, it is very well
>
>    possible and allowable to share the same BFR-id for a BFR across
>
>    different encapsulation types.  If the operator wishes to use
>
>    different BFR-id for different encapsulation types, then he MUST
>
>    provision different BIER sub-domain for each encapsulation type.
>
>
>
> What=E2=80=99s the relevance/significance of the above text?
>
Senthil // Informational text to clarify that different encapsulation types
can share same BFR-ID and hence it is possible to support interop between
different encap types within same Sub-domain without requiring any-sort-of
bfr-id translation.

>
>
> Additionally, do we expect/require interoperation of two encap types? I
> do believe it is reasonable for the two to work together, especially in
> that with signaled BIFT-IDs there is really no difference between the two=
.
> Perhaps some text can be added about that.
>
Senthil // Yes, see above comment. Will update draft to make this clear.

>
>
> Instead of creating a parallel OSPF document, I think the document should
> just be expanded to cover OSPF as well.
>
Senthil// Agreed. Will update same draft  with OSPFv2 extensions in the
next revision.

>
>
> Jeffrey
>
>
>
> *From:* BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Senthil Dhanaraj
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 24, 2018 2:29 AM
> *To:* bier@ietf.org
> *Cc:* draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions.authors@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Bier] [BIER] New draft - ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non MPLS
> Networks // Fwd: New Version Notification for
> draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> Posted a new draft -  ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non-MPLS Networks .
>
> Kindly read and provide your comments/Suggestions.
>
>
>
> Note: For a quick look, you can refer the attached PPT instead as well.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Senthil
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:21 PM
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
> To: Jingrong Xie <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, Gang Yan <yangang@huawei.com>,
> Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>, IJsbrand Wijnands <ice@cisco.com>,
> Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Senthil Dhanaraj and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions
> Revision:       00
> Title:          ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non-MPLS Networks
> Document date:  2018-11-23
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          9
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-ex=
tensions-00.txt
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_inte=
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Zc1f3_64LJ7UBWL-UMbeE0claVu0cdCW09_t08Q80s&e=3D>
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-e=
xtensions
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_html_draft-2Ddhanaraj-2Dbier-2Disis-2Dnon-2Dmpls-2Dextensions&d=3DD=
wMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XN=
TBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&m=3DyxjAMEMhFznuXXpsmgGE3hu9aQivpClOliT7-8QGBhQ&=
s=3Dxe78vJSIC62C0F0PbkKKoZeMx9SEErHwhakBrTJBSco&e=3D>
>
>
> Abstract:
>    Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) [RFC8279] is an architecture
>    that provides multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without
>    requiring intermediate routers to maintain multicast related per-flow
>    state.  BIER can be supported in MPLS and non-MPLS networks.  The
>    common BIER header format and encapsulation for MPLS and non-MPLS
>    networks is specified in [RFC8296].
>
>    BIER in Ethernet encapsulation is an example of BIER encapsulation in
>    non-MPLS networks.
>
>    [RFC8401] specifies the required extensions to the IS-IS [RFC1195]
>    protocol for the distribution of BIER sub-domain information
>    including the Sub-sub-TLV required to support BIER in MPLS
>    encapsulation for MPLS networks.
>
>    This document specifies the required extensions to the IS-IS
>    [RFC1195] protocol for supporting BIER in non-MPLS networks using
>    BIER in Ethernet encapsulation.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__tools.ietf.org&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDN=
S6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&m=3DyxjAMEMhFznuXXpsmgGE3hu9aQivpClOliT7-8QG=
BhQ&s=3D-a6a4ocjlV6FH4oyf5vmKjkgGIj3qQau0Dg7EJp-MpQ&e=3D>
> .
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>

--00000000000087488f057bef2b77
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Jeffrey,<div><br></div><div>My Comments inline !</div><=
div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Senthil</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Dec 1, 2018 at 12:13 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zh=
ang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-8108836227171969662WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Senthil,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">I see that the posted draft is very different from a p=
review copy that we discussed, and the concept is the same
 as in section 3 and 4 of <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzha=
ng-bier-rift-00" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-bier-rift-00</a>. An informational=
 reference should be added.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Senthil=
 // I guess the updated text for BIFT-ID is encoding is discussed &amp; sha=
red, but perhaps the updated draft is not ! Yes, shall add reference to the=
 RIFT draft (DC Networks) which is in-fact a direct use case of BIER in non=
-MPLS networks.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" lin=
k=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-8108836227171969662WordSection=
1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Two questions/comments:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Processing and f=
orwarding of multicast packets using the BIER-ETH<u></u><u></u></span></pre=
>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>encapsulation re=
quires special software and hardware capabilities.<u></u><u></u></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>The BFRs support=
ing this encapsulation type MUST advertise this<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>capability (alon=
g with the other required parameters specific to the<u></u><u></u></span></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>encapsulation) t=
o the other routers in BIER domain.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">If static BIFT-ID assignment is used as in
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encodi=
ng-01" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-non-mp=
ls-bift-encoding-01</a>, should we still advertise a BIER Info sub-TLV with=
 Ethernet
<span class=3D"m_-8108836227171969662SpellE">Encap</span> sub-sub-TLV, perh=
aps with <span class=3D"m_-8108836227171969662SpellE">
MaxSI</span> and starting BIFT-ID all being 0? This is also a question for =
the authors of that draft.</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>Senthil // Setting BIFT-ID to 0 (for Section 5=C2=A0<span styl=
e=3D"font-size:1em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The Non-MPLS Static BSL-SD-SI BIFT Enc=
oding in=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier=
-non-mpls-bift-encoding-01" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encod=
ing-01</a>) is an option. But then, advertising the actual BIFT-ID comes at=
 no additional cost and might help in detecting badly or miss- configured B=
FRs in the network.</div><div>-</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-81088362271719=
69662WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>A BIER sub-domain MAY support multiple BIER encapsulation types like=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><span>=C2=A0
</span><span>=C2=A0</span>BIER-MPLS, BIER-ETH.<span>=C2=A0
</span>Within a BIER sub-domain, it is very well<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>possible and allowable to share the same BFR-id for a BFR across<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>different encapsulation types.<span>=C2=A0 </span>If the operator wi=
shes to use<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>different BFR-id for different encapsulation types, then he MUST<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lack"><span>=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>provision different BIER sub-domain for each encapsulation type.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">What=E2=80=99s the relevance/significance of the above=
 text?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Senthil // Informational tex=
t to clarify that different encapsulation types can share same BFR-ID and h=
ence it is possible to support interop between different encap types within=
 same Sub-domain without requiring any-sort-of bfr-id translation.</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purp=
le"><div class=3D"m_-8108836227171969662WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Additionally, do we expect/require interoperation of t=
wo
<span class=3D"m_-8108836227171969662SpellE">encap</span> types? I do belie=
ve it is reasonable for the two to work together, especially in that with s=
ignaled BIFT-IDs there is really no difference between the two. Perhaps som=
e text can be added about that.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Sen=
thil // Yes, see above comment. Will update draft to make this clear.</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"p=
urple"><div class=3D"m_-8108836227171969662WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497=
d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Instead of creating a parallel OSPF document, I think =
the document should just be expanded to cover OSPF as well.</span></p></div=
></div></blockquote><div>Senthil// Agreed. Will update same draft=C2=A0 wit=
h OSPFv2 extensions in the next revision.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-8108=
836227171969662WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d">Jeffrey<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> BIER
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Senthil Dhanaraj<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 24, 2018 2:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions.a=
uthors@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extens=
ions.authors@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bier] [BIER] New draft - ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non M=
PLS Networks // Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-=
non-mpls-extensions-00.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Posted a new draft -=C2=A0 ISIS Extensions for BIER =
in Non-MPLS Networks=C2=A0.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kindly read and provide your comments/Suggestions.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note: For a quick look, you can refer the attached P=
PT instead as well.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Senthil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>
From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:21 PM<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-ext=
ensions-00.txt<br>
To: Jingrong Xie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;, Gang Yan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yangan=
g@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">yangang@huawei.com</a>&gt;, Peter Psenak &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ppsenak@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;, IJsbrand Wijnands &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ice@cisco.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ice@cisco.com</a>&gt;,
 Senthil Dhanaraj &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00.txt<b=
r>
has been successfully submitted by Senthil Dhanaraj and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-=
mpls-extensions<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISIS Extensions for BIER in Non-MP=
LS Networks<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2018-11-23<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 9<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2=
Ddhanaraj-2Dbier-2Disis-2Dnon-2Dmpls-2Dextensions-2D00.txt&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&a=
mp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6X=
NTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&amp;m=3DyxjAMEMhFznuXXpsmgGE3hu9aQivpClOliT7-8Q=
GBhQ&amp;s=3D2QwuSp-sXW1jzMNRmKctGNfH3Tb4aMcTqaza8DitDE4&amp;e=3D" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-exte=
nsions-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proo=
fpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Ddhanaraj-2=
Dbier-2Disis-2Dnon-2Dmpls-2Dextensions_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuh=
r6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2=
IDAzeZqE&amp;m=3DyxjAMEMhFznuXXpsmgGE3hu9aQivpClOliT7-8QGBhQ&amp;s=3Dzc2X6p=
Qd524aPxs9FZCR_urpmhYeBxFBNgsHvbomBPQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions/</a><b=
r>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoin=
t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Ddhanaraj-2Dbier-2Dis=
is-2Dnon-2Dmpls-2Dextensions-2D00&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbf=
h0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZ=
qE&amp;m=3DyxjAMEMhFznuXXpsmgGE3hu9aQivpClOliT7-8QGBhQ&amp;s=3D9Zc1f3_64LJ7=
UBWL-UMbeE0claVu0cdCW09_t08Q80s&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoin=
t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Ddhanaraj-2=
Dbier-2Disis-2Dnon-2Dmpls-2Dextensions&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr=
6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2I=
DAzeZqE&amp;m=3DyxjAMEMhFznuXXpsmgGE3hu9aQivpClOliT7-8QGBhQ&amp;s=3Dxe78vJS=
IC62C0F0PbkKKoZeMx9SEErHwhakBrTJBSco&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-dhanaraj-bier-isis-non-mpls-extensions</a=
><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) [RFC8279] is an architec=
ture<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that provides multicast forwarding through a &quot;BIER domain=
&quot; without<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0requiring intermediate routers to maintain multicast related p=
er-flow<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0state.=C2=A0 BIER can be supported in MPLS and non-MPLS networ=
ks.=C2=A0 The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0common BIER header format and encapsulation for MPLS and non-M=
PLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0networks is specified in [RFC8296].<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER in Ethernet encapsulation is an example of BIER encapsula=
tion in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0non-MPLS networks.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8401] specifies the required extensions to the IS-IS [RFC1=
195]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol for the distribution of BIER sub-domain information<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0including the Sub-sub-TLV required to support BIER in MPLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation for MPLS networks.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the required extensions to the IS-IS<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC1195] protocol for supporting BIER in non-MPLS networks us=
ing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER in Ethernet encapsulation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__tools.ietf.org&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3Df7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XN=
TBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE&amp;m=3DyxjAMEMhFznuXXpsmgGE3hu9aQivpClOliT7-8QG=
BhQ&amp;s=3D-a6a4ocjlV6FH4oyf5vmKjkgGIj3qQau0Dg7EJp-MpQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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