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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 02:03:02 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
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+1
Obviously support as co-author.

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:41:26PM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote:
> Please read and respond to this thread w/ or w/o support.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/
> 
> Vote ends 5 June 2019.
> 
> Thanks,
> Shep
> (chairs)

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
CC: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
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Support:

I see great value in deterministic networks as well as IOT (with RPL).

All the best,

Pascal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
> Sent: mardi 4 juin 2019 02:03
> To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
>=20
> +1
> Obviously support as co-author.
>=20
> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:41:26PM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote:
> > Please read and respond to this thread w/ or w/o support.
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/
> >
> > Vote ends 5 June 2019.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Shep
> > (chairs)
>=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


From nobody Tue Jun  4 18:16:17 2019
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Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Path Maximum Transmission Unit Discovery (PMTUD) for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer
        Authors         : Greg Mirsky
                          Tony Przygienda
                          Andrew Dolganow
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2019-06-04

Abstract:
   This document describes Path Maximum Transmission Unit Discovery
   (PMTUD) in Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (BIER) layer.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Wed Jun  5 14:03:07 2019
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 14:02:50 -0700
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Subject: [Bier] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06.txt
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Dear All,
contact information update.
Ready to take the document further.

Regards,
Greg
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 6:17 PM
Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06.txt
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <bier@ietf.org>



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the
IETF.

        Title           : Path Maximum Transmission Unit Discovery (PMTUD)
for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Layer
        Authors         : Greg Mirsky
                          Tony Przygienda
                          Andrew Dolganow
        Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06.txt
        Pages           : 8
        Date            : 2019-06-04

Abstract:
   This document describes Path Maximum Transmission Unit Discovery
   (PMTUD) in Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (BIER) layer.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
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BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Dear All,<div>contact information update.</div><div>Re=
ady to take the document further.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><d=
iv>Greg<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</=
span><br>Date: Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 6:17 PM<br>Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: d=
raft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06.txt<br>To:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-=
announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Cc:  &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:bier@ietf.org">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the=
 IETF.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Path Maximum Transmission Unit Discovery (PMTUD) for Bit Index Explicit Re=
plication (BIER) Layer<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Greg=
 Mirsky<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tony Przygienda<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Dolganow<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 8<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2019-06-04<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes Path Maximum Transmission Unit Discove=
ry<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(PMTUD) in Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (BIER) layer.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discov=
ery/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery/</a><br>
<br>
There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-0=
6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i=
etf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-d=
iscovery-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06</a><br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-dis=
covery-06" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdif=
f?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-bier-path-mtu-discovery-06</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</div></div></div>

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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Greg Shepherd, a Chair of the bier working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Greg Shepherd

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 50
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority:  mboned pim mpls lsr roll




People who must be present:
  Tony Przygienda
  Greg Shepherd
  Alvaro Retana

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Mon Jun 17 19:40:11 2019
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From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org>
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Hi All

There was a long discussion about BIERv6 in ietf104, and the most impressiv=
e to me is that, using unicast DA is more attractive, either for the purpos=
e of connecting BIER domains, or work for BFRs connected with shared LAN po=
rts.

So the BIERv6 requirement "The solution should not require hop-by-hop modif=
ication of the IP destination address field." described in section 4.2 is n=
ot suitable.

To meet this requirement, Anycast IPv6 address may have to be used as DA of=
 BIERv6 packet if one want to use Unicast address, but then the useful thin=
gs are lost.

One more point I think will meet many of the questions raised in ietf104:

The Unicast Address used as destination address is better to change to a co=
mpletely "BIER specific" unicast address instead of a normal IPv6 address w=
ith just a "BIER valid" flag.
Similar to < draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-21>, This "BIER specifi=
c" address will have a FIB Entry Locally Instantiated as End.BIER, indicati=
ng "BIER specific handling", and it is not supposed to be used as normal us=
age like a BGP or LDP session.
Note: except for the "BIER specific" usage of an IPv6 address, there is not=
hing to do with or to depend on SRv6.
Then I try to answer the following questions raised in ietf104 as below:


(1)     If you use unicast DA, does the packet be sent to control plane?
=3D=3D>Yes, if the DA is a normal IPv6 address then it is very possible to =
be sent to control-plane.
=3D=3D>When this DA is a "BIER specific" IPv6 address, say a flag of "END.B=
IER" is in the FIB, then a following BIER handling in data plane will be ex=
ecuted directly in data plane.


(2)     One of the interesting question is, whether you are allowed to chan=
ge the bitstrings at transit without calling the operation be decapsulation=
 and re-encapsulation. And if we call it as the later one, should the node =
which re-encapsulate are required to change the source-address?
=3D=3D>The BIERv6 packet is not handled on a "transit" router, but on a rou=
ter the BIER replication is targeting at. Saying A->B->C/D, A send BIERv6 p=
acket to B with B's BFR prefix as IPv6 DA, and B send BIERv6 packet to C an=
d D with C's BFR prefix and D's BFR prefix respectively.
=3D=3D>Keeping the source-address unchanged is a common case in the paradig=
m of Source-routing, and BIER is kind of Source-multicast-routing, isn't it=
 ?

(3) putting it inside options is overruled. Next-proto =3D BIER is far more=
 practical. Its kind of similar, we can think abut merge.
=3D=3D>Using multiple TLVs in an IPv6-Ext-Header is good mechanism for exte=
nsion, one may want to use a new Next-proto =3D BIER (neither in L3 or in L=
4) for efficiency, but then the extension is lost.
=3D=3D>One usage of the extension, one can encapsulation X number of BIER H=
eaders, for example, which belonging to different Sets with same BSL, in X =
number of TLVs in one extension header.
=3D=3D>And for the real efficiency, the use of a "BIER specific" flag in FI=
B is helpful to this purpose as well.

Please let me know your opinions.

Thanks
Jingrong


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<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"text-justi=
fy-trim:punctuation">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi All<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">There was a long discussion abo=
ut BIERv6 in ietf104, and the most impressive to me is that, using unicast =
DA is more attractive, either for the purpose of connecting BIER domains, o=
r work for BFRs connected with shared
 LAN ports.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So the BIERv6 requirement &#822=
0;The solution should not require hop-by-hop modification of the IP destina=
tion address field.&#8221; described in section 4.2 is not suitable.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">To meet this requirement, Anyca=
st IPv6 address may have to be used as DA of BIERv6 packet if one want to u=
se Unicast address, but then the useful things are lost.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">One more point I think will mee=
t many of the questions raised in ietf104:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The Unicast Address used as des=
tination address is better to change to a completely &#8220;BIER specific&#=
8221; unicast address instead of a normal IPv6 address with just a &#8220;B=
IER valid&#8221; flag.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Similar to &lt; draft-ietf-6man=
-segment-routing-header-21&gt;, This &#8220;BIER specific&#8221; address wi=
ll have a FIB Entry Locally Instantiated as End.BIER, indicating &#8220;BIE=
R specific handling&#8221;, and it is not supposed to be used as normal
 usage like a BGP or LDP session.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Note: except for the &#8220;BIE=
R specific&#8221; usage of an IPv6 address, there is nothing to do with or =
to depend on SRv6.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Then I try to answer the follow=
ing questions raised in ietf104 as below:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">(=
1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you use unicast DA, =
does the packet be sent to control plane?&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;Yes, if the DA is a n=
ormal IPv6 address then it is very possible to be sent to control-plane.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;When this DA is a &#8=
220;BIER specific&#8221; IPv6 address, say a flag of &#8220;END.BIER&#8221;=
 is in the FIB, then a following BIER handling in data plane will be execut=
ed directly in data plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">(=
2)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US">One of the interesting =
question is, whether you are allowed to change the bitstrings at transit wi=
thout calling the operation be decapsulation and re-encapsulation. And if w=
e call it as the later one, should
 the node which re-encapsulate are required to change the source-address?<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;The BIERv6 packet is =
not handled on a &#8220;transit&#8221; router, but on a router the BIER rep=
lication is targeting at. Saying A-&gt;B-&gt;C/D, A send BIERv6 packet to B=
 with B&#8217;s BFR prefix as IPv6 DA, and B send BIERv6 packet to
 C and D with C&#8217;s BFR prefix and D&#8217;s BFR prefix respectively. <=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;Keeping the source-ad=
dress unchanged is a common case in the paradigm of Source-routing, and BIE=
R is kind of Source-multicast-routing, isn&#8217;t it ?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">(3) putting it inside options i=
s overruled. Next-proto =3D BIER is far more practical. Its kind of similar=
, we can think abut merge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;Using multiple TLVs i=
n an IPv6-Ext-Header is good mechanism for extension, one may want to use a=
 new Next-proto =3D BIER (neither in L3 or in L4) for efficiency, but then =
the extension is lost.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;One usage of the exte=
nsion, one can encapsulation X number of BIER Headers, for example, which b=
elonging to different Sets with same BSL, in X number of TLVs in one extens=
ion header.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;And for the real effi=
ciency, the use of a &#8220;BIER specific&#8221; flag in FIB is helpful to =
this purpose as well.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please let me know your opinion=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-01.txt
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From: Senthil Dhanaraj <senthil.dhanaraj.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 10:33:43 +0530
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To: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements
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Hi Jingrong,

Have a comment regarding your proposal to remove the requirement =E2=80=9CT=
he
solution should not require hop-by-hop modification of the IP destination
address field.=E2=80=9D

Using unicast DA is recommended only for special scenario's (as you have
already mentioned). It is not recommended to use unicast DA for normal
hop-by-hop replications as it is a unnecessary extra work that each hop has
to perform. If required we may re-phrase the text in the draft to make this
clear instead of removing this requirement.

Thanks,
Senthil


On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 8:10 AM Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi All
>
>
>
> There was a long discussion about BIERv6 in ietf104, and the most
> impressive to me is that, using unicast DA is more attractive, either for
> the purpose of connecting BIER domains, or work for BFRs connected with
> shared LAN ports.
>
>
>
> So the BIERv6 requirement =E2=80=9CThe solution should not require hop-by=
-hop
> modification of the IP destination address field.=E2=80=9D described in s=
ection 4.2
> is not suitable.
>

>
> To meet this requirement, Anycast IPv6 address may have to be used as DA
> of BIERv6 packet if one want to use Unicast address, but then the useful
> things are lost.
>
>
>
> One more point I think will meet many of the questions raised in ietf104:
>
>
>
> The Unicast Address used as destination address is better to change to a
> completely =E2=80=9CBIER specific=E2=80=9D unicast address instead of a n=
ormal IPv6 address
> with just a =E2=80=9CBIER valid=E2=80=9D flag.
>
> Similar to < draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-21>, This =E2=80=9CBI=
ER
> specific=E2=80=9D address will have a FIB Entry Locally Instantiated as E=
nd.BIER,
> indicating =E2=80=9CBIER specific handling=E2=80=9D, and it is not suppos=
ed to be used as
> normal usage like a BGP or LDP session.
>
> Note: except for the =E2=80=9CBIER specific=E2=80=9D usage of an IPv6 add=
ress, there is
> nothing to do with or to depend on SRv6.
>
> Then I try to answer the following questions raised in ietf104 as below:
>
>
>
> (1)     If you use unicast DA, does the packet be sent to control plane?
>
> =3D=3D>Yes, if the DA is a normal IPv6 address then it is very possible t=
o be
> sent to control-plane.
>
> =3D=3D>When this DA is a =E2=80=9CBIER specific=E2=80=9D IPv6 address, sa=
y a flag of
> =E2=80=9CEND.BIER=E2=80=9D is in the FIB, then a following BIER handling =
in data plane will
> be executed directly in data plane.
>
>
>
> (2)     One of the interesting question is, whether you are allowed to
> change the bitstrings at transit without calling the operation be
> decapsulation and re-encapsulation. And if we call it as the later one,
> should the node which re-encapsulate are required to change the
> source-address?
>
> =3D=3D>The BIERv6 packet is not handled on a =E2=80=9Ctransit=E2=80=9D ro=
uter, but on a router
> the BIER replication is targeting at. Saying A->B->C/D, A send BIERv6
> packet to B with B=E2=80=99s BFR prefix as IPv6 DA, and B send BIERv6 pac=
ket to C
> and D with C=E2=80=99s BFR prefix and D=E2=80=99s BFR prefix respectively=
.
>
> =3D=3D>Keeping the source-address unchanged is a common case in the parad=
igm
> of Source-routing, and BIER is kind of Source-multicast-routing, isn=E2=
=80=99t it ?
>
>
>
> (3) putting it inside options is overruled. Next-proto =3D BIER is far mo=
re
> practical. Its kind of similar, we can think abut merge.
>
> =3D=3D>Using multiple TLVs in an IPv6-Ext-Header is good mechanism for
> extension, one may want to use a new Next-proto =3D BIER (neither in L3 o=
r in
> L4) for efficiency, but then the extension is lost.
>
> =3D=3D>One usage of the extension, one can encapsulation X number of BIER
> Headers, for example, which belonging to different Sets with same BSL, in=
 X
> number of TLVs in one extension header.
>
> =3D=3D>And for the real efficiency, the use of a =E2=80=9CBIER specific=
=E2=80=9D flag in FIB
> is helpful to this purpose as well.
>
>
>
> Please let me know your opinions.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Jingrong
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

--00000000000041ba81058be27b18
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Jingrong,</div><div><br></div><div>Have a comment =
regarding your proposal to remove the requirement =E2=80=9CThe solution sho=
uld not require hop-by-hop modification of the IP destination address field=
.=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_=
attr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Using unicast DA is r=
ecommended only for special scenario&#39;s (as you have already mentioned).=
 It is not recommended to use unicast DA for normal hop-by-hop replications=
 as it is a unnecessary extra work that each hop has to perform. If require=
d we may re-phrase the text in the draft to make this clear instead of remo=
ving this requirement.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att=
r"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_attr">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"gmail_att=
r">Senthil</div><div class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">=C2=A0<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tu=
e, Jun 18, 2019 at 8:10 AM Xiejingrong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@hu=
awei.com">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1344760252046497927WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi All<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">There was a long discussion abo=
ut BIERv6 in ietf104, and the most impressive to me is that, using unicast =
DA is more attractive, either for the purpose of connecting BIER domains, o=
r work for BFRs connected with shared
 LAN ports.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So the BIERv6 requirement =E2=
=80=9CThe solution should not require hop-by-hop modification of the IP des=
tination address field.=E2=80=9D described in section 4.2 is not suitable.<=
/span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-1344760252046497927Wo=
rdSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">To meet this requirement, Anyca=
st IPv6 address may have to be used as DA of BIERv6 packet if one want to u=
se Unicast address, but then the useful things are lost.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">One more point I think will mee=
t many of the questions raised in ietf104:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The Unicast Address used as des=
tination address is better to change to a completely =E2=80=9CBIER specific=
=E2=80=9D unicast address instead of a normal IPv6 address with just a =E2=
=80=9CBIER valid=E2=80=9D flag.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Similar to &lt; draft-ietf-6man=
-segment-routing-header-21&gt;, This =E2=80=9CBIER specific=E2=80=9D addres=
s will have a FIB Entry Locally Instantiated as End.BIER, indicating =E2=80=
=9CBIER specific handling=E2=80=9D, and it is not supposed to be used as no=
rmal
 usage like a BGP or LDP session.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Note: except for the =E2=80=9CB=
IER specific=E2=80=9D usage of an IPv6 address, there is nothing to do with=
 or to depend on SRv6.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Then I try to answer the follow=
ing questions raised in ietf104 as below:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1344760252046497927MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:18pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span>(1)<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US">If you use unicast DA, doe=
s the packet be sent to control plane?=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;Yes, if the DA is a n=
ormal IPv6 address then it is very possible to be sent to control-plane.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;When this DA is a =E2=
=80=9CBIER specific=E2=80=9D IPv6 address, say a flag of =E2=80=9CEND.BIER=
=E2=80=9D is in the FIB, then a following BIER handling in data plane will =
be executed directly in data plane.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1344760252046497927MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:18pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span>(2)<span style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times Ne=
w Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US">One of the interesting que=
stion is, whether you are allowed to change the bitstrings at transit witho=
ut calling the operation be decapsulation and re-encapsulation. And if we c=
all it as the later one, should
 the node which re-encapsulate are required to change the source-address?<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;The BIERv6 packet is =
not handled on a =E2=80=9Ctransit=E2=80=9D router, but on a router the BIER=
 replication is targeting at. Saying A-&gt;B-&gt;C/D, A send BIERv6 packet =
to B with B=E2=80=99s BFR prefix as IPv6 DA, and B send BIERv6 packet to
 C and D with C=E2=80=99s BFR prefix and D=E2=80=99s BFR prefix respectivel=
y. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;Keeping the source-ad=
dress unchanged is a common case in the paradigm of Source-routing, and BIE=
R is kind of Source-multicast-routing, isn=E2=80=99t it ?<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">(3) putting it inside options i=
s overruled. Next-proto =3D BIER is far more practical. Its kind of similar=
, we can think abut merge.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;Using multiple TLVs i=
n an IPv6-Ext-Header is good mechanism for extension, one may want to use a=
 new Next-proto =3D BIER (neither in L3 or in L4) for efficiency, but then =
the extension is lost.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;One usage of the exte=
nsion, one can encapsulation X number of BIER Headers, for example, which b=
elonging to different Sets with same BSL, in X number of TLVs in one extens=
ion header.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=3D=3D&gt;And for the real effi=
ciency, the use of a =E2=80=9CBIER specific=E2=80=9D flag in FIB is helpful=
 to this purpose as well.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please let me know your opinion=
s.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 10:42:24 -0700
Message-ID: <CABFReBqpi06wc3Exp2ekUGTbHDdi8zvL1qJDOJ7-Wvd=nZanLw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
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We cannot take two 'yes' votes and WG consensus.
Please, read and respond. If you don't support, then please vote as much
publicly right here.

Thanks,
Greg

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <
pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

> Support:
>
> I see great value in deterministic networks as well as IOT (with RPL).
>
> All the best,
>
> Pascal
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
> > Sent: mardi 4 juin 2019 02:03
> > To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
> >
> > +1
> > Obviously support as co-author.
> >
> > On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:41:26PM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote:
> > > Please read and respond to this thread w/ or w/o support.
> > >
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/
> > >
> > > Vote ends 5 June 2019.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Shep
> > > (chairs)
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > BIER mailing list
> > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">We cannot take two &#39;yes&#39; votes and WG consensus.<d=
iv>Please, read and respond. If you don&#39;t support, then please vote as =
much publicly right here.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Greg</=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:pthubert@cisco.com">pthubert@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">Support:<br>
<br>
I see great value in deterministic networks as well as IOT (with RPL).<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Pascal<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: BIER &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bier-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert<br>
&gt; Sent: mardi 4 juin 2019 02:03<br>
&gt; To: Greg Shepherd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bie=
r@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; +1<br>
&gt; Obviously support as co-author.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:41:26PM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Please read and respond to this thread w/ or w/o support.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-ar=
ch/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Vote ends 5 June 2019.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; Shep<br>
&gt; &gt; (chairs)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 10:43:53 -0700
Message-ID: <CABFReBqrCT5OasuU_EWRcrQH3xY39vC_rhjnG+qWR=6kW4ZZ1w@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "idr-chairs@ietf.org" <idr-chairs@ietf.org>,  Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext
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Can the authors please address Ketan's issues here?

Thanks,
Greg

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 12:23 AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.co=
m>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve reviewed this draft and have some comments below. I do not b=
elieve
> this draft is ready until they are addressed.
>
>
>
> IMHO the BIER WG should also cross-post this to the IDR WG so that it get=
s
> sufficient eyeballs from the folks working on BGP-LS there. Please note
> that there are couple of points in my email below related to code point
> allocation and implementation requirements that are followed for document=
s
> in IDR WG. I am also copying the IDR chairs and Alvaro so that we can com=
e
> to some common understanding across WGs producing documents related to
> BGP-LS extensions.
>
>
>
> General :
>
>
>
> In most cases, the BGP-LS extensions arise from similar extensions to the
> IGPs. I assume this is also the case with this document? It becomes
> important and necessary that the document talks about the underlying IGP
> specs and the TLVs from where the information to be put into the new BGP-=
LS
> TLVs being defined. Otherwise, how would the BGP-LS producer implementati=
on
> know what to construct the TLVs from?
>
>
>
> If this information is not being sourced from the IGPs, then likely the
> BFRs would all need to setup a BGP-LS sessions and then this information =
is
> sourced locally. I doubt this is the case, but please confirm.
>
>
>
> Sec 3 : Please expand =E2=80=9CBFR=E2=80=9D and explain what it is on the=
 first usage.
>
>
>
> Sec 3 : There is no =E2=80=9CBGP-LS Prefix Attribute TLV=E2=80=9D in BGP-=
LS/RFC 7752. The
> name of the BGP Attribute introduced for BGP-LS is called BGP-LS Attribut=
e (
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7752#section-3.3). Some of the TLVs in
> this BGP-LS Attribute are called =E2=80=9CPrefix Attribute TLVs=E2=80=9D =
i.e. the ones that
> are associated with the BGP-LS Prefix NLRI. What we are introducing in th=
is
> draft for BIER are more/new Prefix Attribute TLVs.
>
>
>
> Sec 3.1 : Why do we need the MT-ID in this TLV when we already have TLV
> 263 that indicates the MT-ID as part of the Prefix descriptor TLVs in the
> NLRI part?
>
>
>
> Sec 3.2 : What is BS Length? I don=E2=80=99t find it in the equivalent IG=
P TLVs in
> rfc8444 and rfc8401.
>
>
>
> Sec 3.2 : Says
>
> It MUST appear multiple times in the BIER TLV as described in [RFC8444 <h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8444>]
>
>
>
> This is not true. It should be a MAY not a MUST.
>
>
>
> Sec 3.3 : The BS Length is 4 bits in the IGPs while it is being introduce=
d
> as an 8 bit field in BGP-LS. Normally, we should keep things aligned
> between IGPs and BGP-LS =E2=80=93 however, if we want to not do this, the=
n this
> document should have some text to explain how the length is encoded.
> Perhaps somewhat similar to how it=E2=80=99s explained for the label fiel=
d.
>
>
>
> Sec 4 : IDR WG does not allow for =E2=80=9Csuggestions=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=
=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D for
> code-points =E2=80=93 since this is a BGP-LS document I would assume we f=
ollow the
> same rules even if this is BIER WG document? When required, the IANA earl=
y
> allocation procedure should be followed and the code points updated in th=
e
> draft once that has been done. Otherwise we will end up having squatting
> and conflict issues since we will also have BGP-LS drafts in the LSR WG
> going forward. I hope we can come to some common understanding on this
> allocation process across the WGs. Another (unrelated) point is that the
> IDR WG expects implementation reports and progression to WGLC only after
> we=E2=80=99ve had 2 implementation reports =E2=80=93 does this change for=
 BGP-LS extensions
> from outside IDR?
>
>
>
> Sec 4 : The IANA BGP-LS Parameters registry has the =E2=80=9CBGP-LS Node
> Descriptor, Link Descriptor, Prefix Descriptor, and Attribute TLVs=E2=80=
=9D
> registry. Also, this document proposes to setup a new registry for the
> Encapsulation sub-TLV. We=E2=80=99ve never done this in BGP-LS previously=
 and
> everyone (including sub-TLVs) allocates from the same flat space. If this
> document is proposing a deviation from this, then I believe it needs to b=
e
> reviewed in IDR WG since that will likely change and set a precedent for
> how we allocate code-points for BGP-LS.
>
>
>
> Sec 5 : I think the text in this section is inadequate and we will face
> questions during AD/IESG reviews. Please consider borrowing text from
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8571#section-3 (I assume this is
> straightforward case of taking info from IGPs into BGP-LS) on the lines o=
f
> RFC7752.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd
> *Sent:* 31 May 2019 01:09
> *To:* BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext
>
>
>
> Solid support in the room in Prague. Now to the list. Please read and
> respond to this thread:
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext/
>
>
>
> Also need a volunteer Doc Shepherd. I'll buy you a beer.
>
>
>
> Voting ends 13 June 2019.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shep
>
> (chairs)
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Can the authors please address Ketan&#39;s issues here?<di=
v><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 12:23 =
AM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com">ketant=
@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;=
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-IN">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_9115807219718139212WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hello,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I=E2=80=99ve reviewed this draft and have some=
 comments below. I do not believe this draft is ready until they are addres=
sed.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>IMHO the BIER WG should also cross-post this t=
o the IDR WG so that it gets sufficient eyeballs from the folks working on =
BGP-LS there. Please note that there are couple of points in my email below
 related to code point allocation and implementation requirements that are =
followed for documents in IDR WG. I am also copying the IDR chairs and Alva=
ro so that we can come to some common understanding across WGs producing do=
cuments related to BGP-LS extensions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>General : <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>In most cases, the BGP-LS extensions arise fro=
m similar extensions to the IGPs. I assume this is also the case with this =
document? It becomes important and necessary that the document talks about
 the underlying IGP specs and the TLVs from where the information to be put=
 into the new BGP-LS TLVs being defined. Otherwise, how would the BGP-LS pr=
oducer implementation know what to construct the TLVs from?
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>If this information is not being sourced from =
the IGPs, then likely the BFRs would all need to setup a BGP-LS sessions an=
d then this information is sourced locally. I doubt this is the case, but
 please confirm.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Sec 3 : Please expand =E2=80=9CBFR=E2=80=9D an=
d explain what it is on the first usage.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Sec 3 : There is no =E2=80=9CBGP-LS Prefix Att=
ribute TLV=E2=80=9D in BGP-LS/RFC 7752. The name of the BGP Attribute intro=
duced for BGP-LS is called BGP-LS Attribute (</span><a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc7752#section-3.3" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc7752#section-3.3</a><span>).
 Some of the TLVs in this BGP-LS Attribute are called =E2=80=9CPrefix Attri=
bute TLVs=E2=80=9D i.e. the ones that are associated with the BGP-LS Prefix=
 NLRI. What we are introducing in this draft for BIER are more/new Prefix A=
ttribute TLVs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Sec 3.1 : Why do we need the MT-ID in this TLV=
 when we already have TLV 263 that indicates the MT-ID as part of the Prefi=
x descriptor TLVs in the NLRI part?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Sec 3.2 : What is BS Length? I don=E2=80=99t f=
ind it in the equivalent IGP TLVs in rfc8444 and rfc8401.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sec 3.2 : Says <u></u><=
u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">It MUST appear multiple times in the BIER =
TLV as described in [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8444" title=
=3D"&quot;OSPFv2 Extensions for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER)&quot;=
" target=3D"_blank">RFC8444</a>]<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>This is not true. It should be a MAY not a MUS=
T.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Sec 3.3 : The BS Length is 4 bits in the IGPs =
while it is being introduced as an 8 bit field in BGP-LS. Normally, we shou=
ld keep things aligned between IGPs and BGP-LS =E2=80=93 however, if we wan=
t to not
 do this, then this document should have some text to explain how the lengt=
h is encoded. Perhaps somewhat similar to how it=E2=80=99s explained for th=
e label field.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Sec 4 : IDR WG does not allow for =E2=80=9Csug=
gestions=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D for code-points =E2=
=80=93 since this is a BGP-LS document I would assume we follow the same ru=
les even if this is BIER WG document? When
 required, the IANA early allocation procedure should be followed and the c=
ode points updated in the draft once that has been done. Otherwise we will =
end up having squatting and conflict issues since we will also have BGP-LS =
drafts in the LSR WG going forward.
 I hope we can come to some common understanding on this allocation process=
 across the WGs. Another (unrelated) point is that the IDR WG expects imple=
mentation reports and progression to WGLC only after we=E2=80=99ve had 2 im=
plementation reports =E2=80=93 does this change
 for BGP-LS extensions from outside IDR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Sec 4 : The IANA BGP-LS Parameters registry ha=
s the =E2=80=9CBGP-LS Node Descriptor, Link Descriptor, Prefix Descriptor, =
and Attribute TLVs=E2=80=9D registry. Also, this document proposes to setup=
 a new registry
 for the Encapsulation sub-TLV. We=E2=80=99ve never done this in BGP-LS pre=
viously and everyone (including sub-TLVs) allocates from the same flat spac=
e. If this document is proposing a deviation from this, then I believe it n=
eeds to be reviewed in IDR WG since that
 will likely change and set a precedent for how we allocate code-points for=
 BGP-LS.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Sec 5 : I think the text in this section is in=
adequate and we will face questions during AD/IESG reviews. Please consider=
 borrowing text from
</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8571#section-3" target=3D"=
_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8571#section-3</a> (I assume this is=
 straightforward case of taking info from IGPs into BGP-LS) on the lines of=
 RFC7752.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Ketan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> BIER &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">bier-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Shepherd<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 31 May 2019 01:09<br>
<b>To:</b> BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">b=
ier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Solid support in the room in Prague. Now to the list=
. Please read and respond to this thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also need a volunteer Doc Shepherd. I&#39;ll buy you=
 a beer.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Voting ends 13 June 2019.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shep<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(chairs)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000982311058c297967--


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From: Mike McBride <mmcbride7@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 10:39:36 -0700
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To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>,  Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
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How about three? I support.
mike

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:42 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We cannot take two 'yes' votes and WG consensus.
> Please, read and respond. If you don't support, then please vote as much publicly right here.
>
> Thanks,
> Greg
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Support:
>>
>> I see great value in deterministic networks as well as IOT (with RPL).
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Pascal
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
>> > Sent: mardi 4 juin 2019 02:03
>> > To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
>> > Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch
>> >
>> > +1
>> > Obviously support as co-author.
>> >
>> > On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:41:26PM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote:
>> > > Please read and respond to this thread w/ or w/o support.
>> > >
>> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/
>> > >
>> > > Vote ends 5 June 2019.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Shep
>> > > (chairs)
>> >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > BIER mailing list
>> > > BIER@ietf.org
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > BIER mailing list
>> > BIER@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


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Dear authors:

I just finished reading this document.  I was looking forward to reviewing
a short and straight-forward document, but ended this one with many
questions and concerns.  Please take a look at the details.

I'm starting with some overall issues/concerns:

(1) This document uses the PNPM method described in rfc8321, which makes
that RFC a required Normative reference because it "must be read to
understand or implement the technology" [1].  Note that some of my comments
below are precisely about being explicit with the use of PNPM; the text
talks about the marking method in general...

(2) The use of PNPM results then in the fact that this document cannot be
on the Standards Track because rfc8321 is Experimental.  In general,
downward references are possible, but I don't think this is one of those
cases.  The Shepherd writeup for rfc8321 [2] states that "the measurement
utility of this extension still is to be demonstrated at a variety of
scales in a plurality of network conditions."  As far as I can tell, that
hasn't been demonstrated, nor specific information about the completion of
the experiment was included in the RFC text.  I didn't see the topic of the
document status discussed in the WG -- nor am I aware of discussions about
the maturity of rfc8321 in the ippm WG.  The result is then that this
document should be either Informational or Experimental.

(3) Before digging further into the status of rfc8321, I want to ask the
question of the applicability of PNPM to multicast traffic, is it?  On one
hand, I see that rfc8321 reports that the "methodology has been used
experimentally in Telecom Italia's network and is applied to
multicast...".  On the other hand, draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark [*]
starts by saying that rfc8321 "can be applied only to point-to-point
flows".  I think that we could stretch the use of PNPM to monitor
(referring to Figure 2) both A-C-G and A-C-F using a single set of markings
at A...but that piece of the methodology is not specified in the document.

(4) Finally, what is the relationship between this document and
draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements?  How does this document address the
requirements?  Why isn't draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements even mentioned?


Given these issues (and others identified below), I am inclined to return
this document to the WG to consider the Status, applicability, the
relationship to other work items, etc.  I will wait for an initial response
to these comments before doing so.

Thanks!

Alvaro.


[*] draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark is an ippm WG item and one of the
authors is also an author of rfc8321 and of this document.

[1]
https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-referenc=
es/
[2]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/shepherdwriteup/




[Line numbers from idnits.]

...
15 Abstract

17   This document describes a hybrid performance measurement method for
18   multicast service over Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain.

[nit] s/over Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain/through a Bit
Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain


...
70 1.  Introduction

72   [RFC8279] introduces and explains Bit Index Explicit Replication
73   (BIER) architecture and how it supports forwarding of multicast data
74   packets.  [RFC8296] specified that in case of BIER encapsulation in
75   MPLS network a BIER-MPLS label, the label that is at the bottom of
76   the label stack, uniquely identifies the multicast flow.  [RFC8321]
77   describes hybrid performance measurement method, per [RFC7799]
78   classification of measurement methods.  Packet Network Performance
79   Monitoring (PNPM), which can be used to measure packet loss, latency,
80   and jitter on live traffic.  Because this method is based on marking
81   consecutive batches of packets the method often referred to as
82   Marking Method (MM).

[nit] s/explains Bit Index Explicit/explains the Bit Index Explicit

[nit] s/encapsulation in MPLS network/encapsulation in an MPLS network

[nit] s/describes hybrid performance/describes a hybrid performance

[nit] s/[RFC7799] classification of measurement methods./RFC7799's
classification of measurement methods [RFC7799].

[nit] s/Packet Network Performance Monitoring (PNPM), which can be used/The
method, called Packet Network Performance Monitoring (PNPM), can be used

[nit] s/the method often referred/the method is often referred

[major] It's not clear to me whether PNPM is known as *the* Marking Method,
or if it is simply *a* marking method.  Please clarify.  I note that the
later mentions to "marking method" are all in lower case, which seem to
imply something generic -- if referring to PNPM, it would be better to do
it explicitly.

84   This document defines how marking method can be used on BIER layer to
85   measure packet loss and delay metrics of a multicast flow in MPLS
86   network.

[nit] s/used on BIER layer/used on the BIER layer

[nit] s/in MPLS network/in an MPLS network

88 2.  Conventions used in this document

90 2.1.  Terminology
...
99   MM: Marking Method

[minor] It looks like MM is only used in the Introduction...


...
111 3.  OAM Field in BIER Header

113   [RFC8296] defined the two-bit long field, referred to as OAM,
114   designated for the marking performance measurement method.  The OAM
115   field MUST NOT be used in defining forwarding and/or quality of
116   service treatment of a BIER packet.  The OAM field MUST be used only
117   for the performance measurement of data traffic in BIER layer.
118   Because the setting of the field to any value does not affect
119   forwarding and/or quality of service treatment of a packet, the
120   marking method in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the
121   hybrid performance measurement method.

[major] "designated for the marking performance measurement method"
 rfc8296 clearly says that this document is an example of a document that
may define the non-default use of the bits.  It doesn't designate the use
of the bits in any way.

[major] "The OAM field MUST NOT be used in defining forwarding and/or
quality of service treatment of a BIER packet."  This sentence seems to
paraphrase rfc8296.  Is that the intent?  If so, that is not what rfc8296
says: it is not Normative in the same way.

If not, then I'm not sure what the Normative statement is.

In general, it seems to me that there is no value in that text in this
document.  Note that the paragraph ends with "because the setting of the
field to any value does not affect forwarding and/or quality of service
treatment of a packet...", which is a statement in line with rfc8296, then
there doesn't seem to be a need to include the Normative sentence at all...

[major] "The OAM field MUST be used only for the performance measurement of
data traffic in BIER layer."  What is the intended Normative action of this
sentence?  It seems to me that it wants to avoid other uses of the OAM
field...but without updating rfc8296, which says that the use of the field
"in other than the default manner is OPTIONAL".  IOW, this statement
contradicts rfc8296.

If you intend for the statement to only apply to implementations of this
document, then you don't need to even include it: the document itself is
about specifying the use of the OAM field (for nodes that support it).

[minor] "Because the setting of the field...the marking method in BIER
layer can be viewed as the example of the hybrid performance measurement
method."  I don't understand how the conclusion is drawn (based on the
setting of the field)...nor how this relates to the text in the
Introduction where it basically says that PNPM, which is a hybrid
performance measurement method is known as MM... ??

123   The Figure 1 displays format of the OAM field

[major] Please be explicit in saying that this is how this document defines
the OAM field.

125    0
126    0   1
127   +-+-+-+-+
128   | L | D |
129   +-+-+-+-+

131                 Figure 1: OAM field of BIER Header format

133   where:

135   o  L - Loss flag;

137   o  D - Delay flag.

[minor] Please add a forward reference to where the meaning and use of
these flags is specified.

[minor] The name of these flags doesn't really represent loss/delay...

139 4.  Theory of Operation

141   The marking method can be successfully used in the multicast
142   environment supported by BIER layer.  Without limiting any generality
143   consider multicast network presented in Figure 2.  Any combination of
144   markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a multicast flow by
145   any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress point to
146   perform node, link, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect
147   performance degradation defect and localize it efficiently.

[nit] "The marking method can be successfully used in the multicast
environment supported by BIER layer."  Sounds like a marketing statement...

[major] "Any combination of markings...can be applied...by any Bit
Forwarding Router (BFR)..."  rfc8296 says that the "bits are set...by the
BFIR and are not modified by other BFRs".  What is the assumption?  Please
be clear!

149                           -----
150                         --| D |
151                 -----  /  -----
152               --| B |--
153              /  -----  \  -----
154             /           --| E |
155   -----    /              -----
156   | A |---                -----
157   -----    \            --| F |
158             \  -----   /  -----
159              --| C |--
160                -----   \  -----
161                         --| G |
162                           -----

164                        Figure 2: Multicast network

166   Using the marking method, a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the
167   particular multicast traffic over BIER layer.  Each sub-flow consists
168   of consecutive blocks, consisting of identically marked packets, that
169   are unambiguously recognizable by a monitoring point at any BFR and
170   can be measured to calculate packet loss and/or packet delay metrics.
171   It is expected that the marking values be set and cleared at the edge
172   of BIER domain.  Thus for the scenario presented in Figure 2 if the
173   operator initially monitors A-C-G and A-B-D segments he may enable
174   measurements on segments C-F and B-E at any time.

[major] What are sub-flows?  This question was asked in the Shepherd
review, but no clarification made it into the document.  Note that =C2=A74.=
1
talks about "alternate flows" -- is that the same thing?  And =C2=A74.2 use=
s
"monitored flow"...

[nit] s/monitors A-C-G/monitors the A-C-G

[major] "...if the operator initially monitors A-C-G and A-B-D segments he
may enable measurements on segments C-F and B-E at any time."  How?  A
similar question was asked in the Shepherd's review, and the answer
included this: "the AltMark domain may be arbitrary and not identical to
the BIER domain. But from operational PoV, I believe, it is useful to apply
AltMark at BFIR and then clear them by removing BIER encapsulation at
BFERs." [3]  However, the document doesn't have any type of discussion
related to the existence of multiple types of domains, or their
congruence...much less operational guidance.  Please be explicit about the
potential different domains, their relationship to the specification in
rfc8296 and provide operational guidance in an Operational Considerations
section.

[3] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/0rn7_VSjJQPRAOxSSfnGp-kFWBE


176 4.1.  Single Mark Enabled Measurement

[major] rfc8321 uses "Single-Marking" (not Single Mark).  Please be
consistent.

178   As explained in the [RFC8321], marking can be applied to delineate
179   blocks of packets based either on the equal number of packets in a
180   block or based on equal time interval.  The latter method offers
181   better control as it allows better account for capabilities of
182   downstream nodes to report statistics related to batches of packets
183   and, at the same time, time resolution that affects defect detection
184   interval.

[nit] s/in the [RFC8321]/in [RFC8321]

186   If the Single Mark measurement used to measure packet loss, then the
187   D flag MUST be set to zero on transmit and ignored by monitoring
188   point.

[nit] s/measurement used/measurement is used

[nit] s/ignored by monitoring/ignored by the monitoring

[major] In this document I don't see a way to discover (or detect from the
signaling) what methodology is in use.  All the nodes in the network (or at
least the ones doing measurement) MUST then be configured beforehand.  Is
that true?  Please be explicit about those type of requirements.  An
rfc5706-type Operational Considerations section would be ideal -- look
specially at =C2=A72.

190   The L flag is used to create alternate flows to measure the packet
191   loss by switching the value of the L flag every N-th packet or at
192   certain time intervals.  Delay metrics MAY be calculated with the
193   alternate flow using any of the following methods:

195   o  First/Last Packet Delay calculation: whenever the marking, i.e.
196      value of L flag changes, a BFR can store the timestamp of the
197      first/last packet of the block.  The timestamp can be compared
198      with the timestamp of the packet that arrived in the same order
199      through a monitoring point at downstream BFR to compute packet
200      delay.  Because timestamps collected based on order of arrival
201      this method is sensitive to packet loss and re-ordering of packets

[nit] s/at downstream BFR/at a downstream BFR

[major] "this method is sensitive to packet loss and re-ordering of
packets"  It will be important to point at the Considerations section from
rfc8321.  It would be ideal to do so in the Operational Considerations
section.

203   o  Average Packet Delay calculation: an average delay is calculated
204      by considering the average arrival time of the packets within a
205      single block.  A BFR may collect timestamps for each packet
206      received within a single block.  Average of the timestamp is the
207      sum of all the timestamps divided by the total number of packets
208      received.  Then the difference between averages calculated at two
209      monitoring points is the average packet delay on that segment.
210      This method is robust to out of order packets and also to packet
211      loss (only a small error is introduced).  This method only
212      provides a single metric for the duration of the block and it
213      doesn't give the minimum and maximum delay values.  This
214      limitation could be overcome by reducing the duration of the block
215      by means of a highly optimized implementation of the method.

[minor] "Then the difference between averages calculated at two monitoring
points is the average packet delay on that segment."  Maybe my math is
rusty, but I would have thought the average delay to be the average of the
averages, not the difference.  ??

[minor] "only a small error is introduced"  This seems to be a statement of
faith: no proof or justification.

[major] "This method...[has a] limitation [which] could be overcome by
reducing the duration of the block by means of a highly optimized
implementation of the method."  What does that mean?  How is it done?

[major] What considerations should be taken into account when deciding the
length of time, or number of packets, to be used in each monitored flow?
Please include this information in the Operational Considerations section.

217 4.2.  Double Mark Enabled Measurement

[major] rfc8321 uses "Double-Marking" (not Double Mark).  Please be
consistent.

219   Double Mark method allows measurement of minimum and maximum delays
220   for the monitored flow but it requires more nodal and network
221   resources.  If the Double Mark method used, then the L flag MUST be
222   used to create the alternate flow, i.e. mark larger batches of
223   packets.  The D flag MUST be used to mark single packets to measure
224   delay jitter.

[major] "If the Double Mark method used, then the L flag MUST be used...The
D flag MUST be used..."   There's no Normative value in the use of MUST
here.  If appropriate, please use Normative language to indicate *how* the
flags are used instead.  s/MUST/must

226   The first marking (L flag alternation) is needed for packet loss and
227   also for average delay measurement.  The second marking (D flag is
228   put to one) creates a new set of marked packets that are fully
229   identified over the BIER network, so that a BFR can store the
230   timestamps of these packets; these timestamps can be compared with
231   the timestamps of the same packets on a second BFR to compute packet
232   delay values for each packet.  The number of measurements can be
233   easily increased by changing the frequency of the second marking.
234   But the frequency of the second marking must be not too high in order
235   to avoid out of order issues.  This method is useful to measure not
236   only the average delay but also the minimum and maximum delay values
237   and, in wider terms, to know more about the statistic distribution of
238   delay values.

[major] "the frequency of the second marking must be not too high"  What is
"too high"?

240 5.  IANA Considerations

242   This document requests IANA to register format of the OAM field of
243   BIER Header as the following:

[major] =C2=A73 calls these bits L and D.

[major] If you're assigning values to all the bits in the field, then a
registry is not needed.

[major] If you want to set up a registry to avoid others using the bits in
different ways, then that requires an Update to rfc8296.  The way I read
rfc8296 is that there could be multiple ways of using the field.  I also
didn't see this type of discussion in the WG archive.

245   +--------------+---------+--------------------------+---------------+
246   | Bit Position | Marking | Description              | Reference     |
247   +--------------+---------+--------------------------+---------------+
248   |      0       |    S    | Single Mark Measurement  | This document |
249   |      1       |    D    | Double Mark Measurement  | This document |
250   +--------------+---------+--------------------------+---------------+

252                     Table 1: OAM field of BIER Header

[major] =C2=A73 uses a different description, which seems inline with =C2=
=A74.  Also,
the use of a single bit doesn't indicate (according to =C2=A74) the type of
measurement done.

254 6.  Security Considerations

256   This document list the OAM requirement for BIER-enabled domain and
257   does not raise any security concerns or issues in addition to ones
258   common to networking.

[major] "This document list the OAM requirement for BIER-enabled domain..."
 That is not what this document does!

[major] "common to networking"  That's a very wide statement -- do you have
a reference?

[major] You should at least point to rfc8296.

[major] I would also like to see a pointer to rfc8321, and a discussion of
how the concerns there apply (or not) to the BIER application.


...
283 8.2.  Informative References
...
295   [RFC8321]  Fioccola, G., Ed., Capello, A., Cociglio, M., Castaldelli,
296              L., Chen, M., Zheng, L., Mirsky, G., and T. Mizrahi,
297              "Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid
298              Performance Monitoring", RFC 8321, DOI 10.17487/RFC8321,
299              January 2018, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8321>.

[major] This reference must be Normative.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div =
style=3D"margin:0px">Dear authors:</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px">I just finished reading this document.=C2=A0 I w=
as looking forward to reviewing a short and straight-forward document, but =
ended this one with many questions and concerns.=C2=A0 Please take a look a=
t the details.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0px">I&#39;m starting with some overall issues/concerns:</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">(1) This document uses =
the PNPM method described in rfc8321, which makes that RFC a required Norma=
tive reference because it &quot;must be read to understand or implement the=
 technology&quot; [1].=C2=A0 Note that some of my comments below are precis=
ely about being explicit with the use of PNPM; the text talks about the mar=
king method in general...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px">(2) The use of PNPM results then in the fact that this do=
cument cannot be on the Standards Track because rfc8321 is Experimental.=C2=
=A0 In general, downward references are possible, but I don&#39;t think thi=
s is one of those cases.=C2=A0 The Shepherd writeup for rfc8321 [2] states =
that &quot;the measurement utility of this extension still is to be demonst=
rated at a variety of scales in a plurality of network conditions.&quot; =
=C2=A0As far as I can tell, that hasn&#39;t been demonstrated, nor specific=
 information about the completion of the experiment was included in the RFC=
 text.=C2=A0 I didn&#39;t see the topic of the document status discussed in=
 the WG -- nor am I aware of discussions about the maturity of rfc8321 in t=
he ippm WG.=C2=A0 The result is then that this document should be either In=
formational or Experimental.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px">(3) Before digging further into the status of rfc8321,=
 I want to ask the question of the applicability of PNPM to multicast traff=
ic, is it?=C2=A0 On one hand, I see that rfc8321 reports that the &quot;met=
hodology has been used experimentally in Telecom Italia&#39;s network and i=
s applied to multicast...&quot;.=C2=A0 On the other hand, draft-ietf-ippm-m=
ultipoint-alt-mark [*] starts by saying that rfc8321 &quot;can be applied o=
nly to point-to-point flows&quot;.=C2=A0 I think that we could stretch the =
use of PNPM to monitor (referring to Figure 2) both A-C-G and A-C-F using a=
 single set of markings at A...but that piece of the methodology is not spe=
cified in the document.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">(4) Finally, what is the relationship between this document=
 and draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements?=C2=A0 How does this document address=
 the requirements?=C2=A0 Why isn&#39;t draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements eve=
n mentioned?</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">Given these issues (and others ide=
ntified below), I am inclined to return this document to the WG to consider=
 the Status, applicability, the relationship to other work items, etc.=C2=
=A0 I will wait for an initial response to these comments before doing so.<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">Thanks!<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">Alvaro.<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px">[*] draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark is an i=
ppm WG item and one of the authors is also an author of rfc8321 and of this=
 document.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">[1] <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-in=
formative-references/">https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-a=
nd-informative-references/</a></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[2] <a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/shepherdwrite=
up/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/shepherdwrit=
eup/</a></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><b=
r></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[Line numbers from idnits.]</div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">15<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span>Abstract</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0px">17<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span=
> =C2=A0 This document describes a hybrid performance measurement method fo=
r</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">18<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 multicast service over Bit Index Explicit =
Replication (BIER) domain.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/over Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domai=
n/through a Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain</div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">70<span class=3D"Apple-tab-spa=
n" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>1.=C2=A0 Introduction</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">72<span class=3D"Apple-=
tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 [RFC8279] introduces an=
d explains Bit Index Explicit Replication</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">73=
<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 (B=
IER) architecture and how it supports forwarding of multicast data</div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0px">74<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-spac=
e:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 packets. =C2=A0[RFC8296] specified that in case of B=
IER encapsulation in</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">75<span class=3D"Apple-=
tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 MPLS network a BIER-MPL=
S label, the label that is at the bottom of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">=
76<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =
the label stack, uniquely identifies the multicast flow. =C2=A0[RFC8321]</d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">77<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"whit=
e-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 describes hybrid performance measurement metho=
d, per [RFC7799]</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">78<span class=3D"Apple-tab-=
span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 classification of measureme=
nt methods.=C2=A0 Packet Network Performance</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
>79<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0=
 Monitoring (PNPM), which can be used to measure packet loss, latency,</div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px">80<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-=
space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 and jitter on live traffic.=C2=A0 Because this m=
ethod is based on marking</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">81<span class=3D"A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 consecutive batche=
s of packets the method often referred to as</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
>82<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0=
 Marking Method (MM).</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/explains Bit Index Explicit/explains the Bit Index =
Explicit</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
>[nit] s/encapsulation in MPLS network/encapsulation in an MPLS network</di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/des=
cribes hybrid performance/describes a hybrid performance</div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/[RFC7799] classifi=
cation of measurement methods./RFC7799&#39;s classification of measurement =
methods [RFC7799].</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px">[nit] s/Packet Network Performance Monitoring (PNPM), which can =
be used/The method, called Packet Network Performance Monitoring (PNPM), ca=
n be used</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px=
">[nit] s/the method often referred/the method is often referred</div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] It&#39;s n=
ot clear to me whether PNPM is known as *the* Marking Method, or if it is s=
imply *a* marking method.=C2=A0 Please clarify.=C2=A0 I note that the later=
 mentions to &quot;marking method&quot; are all in lower case, which seem t=
o imply something generic -- if referring to PNPM, it would be better to do=
 it explicitly.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px">84<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>=
 =C2=A0 This document defines how marking method can be used on BIER layer =
to</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">85<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D=
"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 measure packet loss and delay metrics of =
a multicast flow in MPLS</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">86<span class=3D"Ap=
ple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 network.</div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/used on BI=
ER layer/used on the BIER layer</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/in MPLS network/in an MPLS network</div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">88<span class=3D=
"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>2.=C2=A0 Conventions use=
d in this document</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px">90<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</sp=
an>2.1.=C2=A0 Terminology</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px">99<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"=
>	</span> =C2=A0 MM: Marking Method</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] It looks like MM is only used in the In=
troduction...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px=
">111<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>3.=C2=
=A0 OAM Field in BIER Header</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px">113<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space=
:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 [RFC8296] defined the two-bit long field, referred to=
 as OAM,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">114<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 designated for the marking perform=
ance measurement method.=C2=A0 The OAM</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">115<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 fiel=
d MUST NOT be used in defining forwarding and/or quality of</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">116<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"=
>	</span> =C2=A0 service treatment of a BIER packet.=C2=A0 The OAM field MU=
ST be used only</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">117<span class=3D"Apple-tab-=
span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 for the performance measure=
ment of data traffic in BIER layer.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">118<span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 Because=
 the setting of the field to any value does not affect</div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px">119<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</s=
pan> =C2=A0 forwarding and/or quality of service treatment of a packet, the=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">120<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 marking method in BIER layer can be viewed=
 as the example of the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">121<span class=3D"App=
le-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 hybrid performance m=
easurement method.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px">[major] &quot;designated for the marking performance measurement=
 method&quot; =C2=A0rfc8296 clearly says that this document is an example o=
f a document that may define the non-default use of the bits.=C2=A0 It does=
n&#39;t designate the use of the bits in any way.</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;The OAM field MUST =
NOT be used in defining forwarding and/or quality of service treatment of a=
 BIER packet.&quot; =C2=A0This sentence seems to paraphrase rfc8296.=C2=A0 =
Is that the intent?=C2=A0 If so, that is not what rfc8296 says: it is not N=
ormative in the same way.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px">If not, then I&#39;m not sure what the Normative statemen=
t is.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">In=
 general, it seems to me that there is no value in that text in this docume=
nt.=C2=A0 Note that the paragraph ends with &quot;because the setting of th=
e field to any value does not affect forwarding and/or quality of service t=
reatment of a packet...&quot;, which is a statement in line with rfc8296, t=
hen there doesn&#39;t seem to be a need to include the Normative sentence a=
t all...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
>[major] &quot;The OAM field MUST be used only for the performance measurem=
ent of data traffic in BIER layer.&quot; =C2=A0What is the intended Normati=
ve action of this sentence?=C2=A0 It seems to me that it wants to avoid oth=
er uses of the OAM field...but without updating rfc8296, which says that th=
e use of the field &quot;in other than the default manner is OPTIONAL&quot;=
.=C2=A0 IOW, this statement contradicts rfc8296.</div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">If you intend for the statement to=
 only apply to implementations of this document, then you don&#39;t need to=
 even include it: the document itself is about specifying the use of the OA=
M field (for nodes that support it).</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] &quot;Because the setting of the field=
...the marking method in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the hyb=
rid performance measurement method.&quot; =C2=A0I don&#39;t understand how =
the conclusion is drawn (based on the setting of the field)...nor how this =
relates to the text in the Introduction where it basically says that PNPM, =
which is a hybrid performance measurement method is known as MM... ??</div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">123<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 The Figure 1=
 displays format of the OAM field</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] Please be explicit in saying that this is=
 how this document defines the OAM field.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><b=
r></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">125<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A00</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
>126<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=
=A0 =C2=A00 =C2=A0 1</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">127<span class=3D"Apple=
-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+</div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px">128<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:p=
re">	</span> =C2=A0 | L | D |</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">129<span class=
=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+</di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">131<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 1: OAM field of BIER Header f=
ormat</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">13=
3<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 w=
here:</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">13=
5<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 o=
 =C2=A0L - Loss flag;</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">137<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"=
>	</span> =C2=A0 o =C2=A0D - Delay flag.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] Please add a forward reference to =
where the meaning and use of these flags is specified.</div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] The name of these fl=
ags doesn&#39;t really represent loss/delay...</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">139<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" st=
yle=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>4.=C2=A0 Theory of Operation</div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">141<span class=3D"Appl=
e-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 The marking method ca=
n be successfully used in the multicast</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">142<=
span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 env=
ironment supported by BIER layer.=C2=A0 Without limiting any generality</di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px">143<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"whit=
e-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 consider multicast network presented in Figure=
 2.=C2=A0 Any combination of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">144<span class=
=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 markings, Los=
s and/or Delay, can be applied to a multicast flow by</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">145<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</sp=
an> =C2=A0 any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress poin=
t to</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">146<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 perform node, link, segment or end-to-=
end measurement to detect</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">147<span class=3D"=
Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 performance degra=
dation defect and localize it efficiently.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><=
br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] &quot;The marking method can be su=
ccessfully used in the multicast environment supported by BIER layer.&quot;=
 =C2=A0Sounds like a marketing statement...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">=
<br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;Any combination of markin=
gs...can be applied...by any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR)...&quot; =C2=A0rfc=
8296 says that the &quot;bits are set...by the BFIR and are not modified by=
 other BFRs&quot;.=C2=A0 What is the assumption?=C2=A0 Please be clear!</di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">149<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=
----</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">150<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --| D |</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">151<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- =C2=A0/ =C2=A0--=
---</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">152<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 --| B |--</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">153<span class=3D"Apple-tab-sp=
an" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0/ =C2=A0----- =C2=A0\ =C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">154<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 / =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 --| E |</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">155<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 ----- =C2=A0 =C2=A0/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">156=
<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 | =
A |--- =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px">157<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 ----- =C2=A0 =C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0--| F |</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">158<span class=3D"Apple=
-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 \ =C2=A0----- =C2=A0 / =C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px">159<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--| C |--</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">160<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"=
>	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0----- =C2=
=A0 \ =C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">161<span class=3D"Apple-ta=
b-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --| G |</div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px">162<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre=
">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px">164<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-=
space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 2: Multicast network</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">166<span class=3D"Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 Using the marking method, =
a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">167<=
span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 par=
ticular multicast traffic over BIER layer.=C2=A0 Each sub-flow consists</di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px">168<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"whit=
e-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 of consecutive blocks, consisting of identical=
ly marked packets, that</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">169<span class=3D"Ap=
ple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 are unambiguously r=
ecognizable by a monitoring point at any BFR and</div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px">170<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =
=C2=A0 can be measured to calculate packet loss and/or packet delay metrics=
.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">171<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D=
"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 It is expected that the marking values be=
 set and cleared at the edge</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">172<span class=
=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 of BIER domai=
n.=C2=A0 Thus for the scenario presented in Figure 2 if the</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">173<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"=
>	</span> =C2=A0 operator initially monitors A-C-G and A-B-D segments he ma=
y enable</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">174<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 measurements on segments C-F and B=
-E at any time.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px">[major] What are sub-flows?=C2=A0 This question was asked in the Sh=
epherd review, but no clarification made it into the document.=C2=A0 Note t=
hat =C2=A74.1 talks about &quot;alternate flows&quot; -- is that the same t=
hing?=C2=A0 And =C2=A74.2 uses &quot;monitored flow&quot;...</div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/monitors A-C-G=
/monitors the A-C-G</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px">[major] &quot;...if the operator initially monitors A-C-G and A=
-B-D segments he may enable measurements on segments C-F and B-E at any tim=
e.&quot; =C2=A0How?=C2=A0 A similar question was asked in the Shepherd&#39;=
s review, and the answer included this: &quot;the AltMark domain may be arb=
itrary and not identical to the BIER domain. But from operational PoV, I be=
lieve, it is useful to apply AltMark at BFIR and then clear them by removin=
g BIER encapsulation at BFERs.&quot; [3] =C2=A0However, the document doesn&=
#39;t have any type of discussion related to the existence of multiple type=
s of domains, or their congruence...much less operational guidance.=C2=A0 P=
lease be explicit about the potential different domains, their relationship=
 to the specification in rfc8296 and provide operational guidance in an Ope=
rational Considerations section.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0px">[3] <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m=
sg/bier/0rn7_VSjJQPRAOxSSfnGp-kFWBE">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/=
bier/0rn7_VSjJQPRAOxSSfnGp-kFWBE</a></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">176<span c=
lass=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>4.1.=C2=A0 Single=
 Mark Enabled Measurement</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px">[major] rfc8321 uses &quot;Single-Marking&quot; (not Sing=
le Mark).=C2=A0 Please be consistent.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px">178<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 As explained in the [RFC8321], marking can b=
e applied to delineate</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">179<span class=3D"App=
le-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 blocks of packets ba=
sed either on the equal number of packets in a</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">180<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=
=A0 block or based on equal time interval.=C2=A0 The latter method offers</=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px">181<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 better control as it allows better account f=
or capabilities of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">182<span class=3D"Apple-t=
ab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 downstream nodes to repo=
rt statistics related to batches of packets</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">=
183<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0=
 and, at the same time, time resolution that affects defect detection</div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px">184<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-=
space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 interval.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/in the [RFC8321]/in [RFC8321]</div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">186<span class=
=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 If the Single=
 Mark measurement used to measure packet loss, then the</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px">187<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</=
span> =C2=A0 D flag MUST be set to zero on transmit and ignored by monitori=
ng</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">188<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 point.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">=
<br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/measurement used/measurement is=
 used</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[n=
it] s/ignored by monitoring/ignored by the monitoring</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] In this document I do=
n&#39;t see a way to discover (or detect from the signaling) what methodolo=
gy is in use.=C2=A0 All the nodes in the network (or at least the ones doin=
g measurement) MUST then be configured beforehand.=C2=A0 Is that true?=C2=
=A0 Please be explicit about those type of requirements.=C2=A0 An rfc5706-t=
ype Operational Considerations section would be ideal -- look specially at =
=C2=A72.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
>190<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=
=A0 The L flag is used to create alternate flows to measure the packet</div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px">191<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white=
-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 loss by switching the value of the L flag every=
 N-th packet or at</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">192<span class=3D"Apple-t=
ab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 certain time intervals.=
=C2=A0 Delay metrics MAY be calculated with the</div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">193<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =
=C2=A0 alternate flow using any of the following methods:</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">195<span class=3D"Apple=
-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 o =C2=A0First/Last Pac=
ket Delay calculation: whenever the marking, i.e.</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px">196<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value of L flag changes, a BFR can store the timestamp =
of the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">197<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" sty=
le=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0first/last packet of th=
e block.=C2=A0 The timestamp can be compared</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
>198<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with the timestamp of the packet that arrived in the same =
order</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">199<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0through a monitoring poi=
nt at downstream BFR to compute packet</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">200<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0delay.=C2=A0 Because timestamps collected based on order of arriv=
al</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">201<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this method is sensitive =
to packet loss and re-ordering of packets</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><b=
r></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/at downstream BFR/at a downstream=
 BFR</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[ma=
jor] &quot;this method is sensitive to packet loss and re-ordering of packe=
ts&quot; =C2=A0It will be important to point at the Considerations section =
from rfc8321.=C2=A0 It would be ideal to do so in the Operational Considera=
tions section.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0px">203<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>=
 =C2=A0 o =C2=A0Average Packet Delay calculation: an average delay is calcu=
lated</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">204<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0by considering the avera=
ge arrival time of the packets within a</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">205<=
span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0single block.=C2=A0 A BFR may collect timestamps for each packet<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px">206<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0received within a single block=
.=C2=A0 Average of the timestamp is the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">207<=
span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0sum of all the timestamps divided by the total number of packets<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px">208<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0received.=C2=A0 Then the diffe=
rence between averages calculated at two</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">209=
<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0monitoring points is the average packet delay on that segment.=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">210<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This method is robust to out =
of order packets and also to packet</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">211<span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0loss (only a small error is introduced).=C2=A0 This method only</div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px">212<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-=
space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provides a single metric for the du=
ration of the block and it</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">213<span class=3D=
"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doe=
sn&#39;t give the minimum and maximum delay values.=C2=A0 This</div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px">214<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:p=
re">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0limitation could be overcome by reducing t=
he duration of the block</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">215<span class=3D"A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0by me=
ans of a highly optimized implementation of the method.</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] &quot;Then the diff=
erence between averages calculated at two monitoring points is the average =
packet delay on that segment.&quot; =C2=A0Maybe my math is rusty, but I wou=
ld have thought the average delay to be the average of the averages, not th=
e difference. =C2=A0??</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">[minor] &quot;only a small error is introduced&quot; =C2=A0=
This seems to be a statement of faith: no proof or justification.</div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;Thi=
s method...[has a] limitation [which] could be overcome by reducing the dur=
ation of the block by means of a highly optimized implementation of the met=
hod.&quot; =C2=A0What does that mean?=C2=A0 How is it done?</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] What considerat=
ions should be taken into account when deciding the length of time, or numb=
er of packets, to be used in each monitored flow?=C2=A0 Please include this=
 information in the Operational Considerations section.</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">217<span class=3D"Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>4.2.=C2=A0 Double Mark Enabled Mea=
surement</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
>[major] rfc8321 uses &quot;Double-Marking&quot; (not Double Mark).=C2=A0 P=
lease be consistent.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px">219<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	<=
/span> =C2=A0 Double Mark method allows measurement of minimum and maximum =
delays</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">220<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" sty=
le=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 for the monitored flow but it requir=
es more nodal and network</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">221<span class=3D"=
Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 resources.=C2=A0 =
If the Double Mark method used, then the L flag MUST be</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px">222<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</=
span> =C2=A0 used to create the alternate flow, i.e. mark larger batches of=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">223<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 packets.=C2=A0 The D flag MUST be used to =
mark single packets to measure</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">224<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 delay jitter=
.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major=
] &quot;If the Double Mark method used, then the L flag MUST be used...The =
D flag MUST be used...&quot; =C2=A0 There&#39;s no Normative value in the u=
se of MUST here.=C2=A0 If appropriate, please use Normative language to ind=
icate *how* the flags are used instead. =C2=A0s/MUST/must</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">226<span class=3D"Apple=
-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 The first marking (L f=
lag alternation) is needed for packet loss and</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">227<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=
=A0 also for average delay measurement.=C2=A0 The second marking (D flag is=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">228<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 put to one) creates a new set of marked pa=
ckets that are fully</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">229<span class=3D"Apple=
-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 identified over the BI=
ER network, so that a BFR can store the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">230<=
span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 tim=
estamps of these packets; these timestamps can be compared with</div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px">231<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:=
pre">	</span> =C2=A0 the timestamps of the same packets on a second BFR to =
compute packet</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">232<span class=3D"Apple-tab-s=
pan" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 delay values for each packet=
.=C2=A0 The number of measurements can be</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">23=
3<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 e=
asily increased by changing the frequency of the second marking.</div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px">234<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space=
:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 But the frequency of the second marking must be not t=
oo high in order</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">235<span class=3D"Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 to avoid out of order issu=
es.=C2=A0 This method is useful to measure not</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">236<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=
=A0 only the average delay but also the minimum and maximum delay values</d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">237<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"whi=
te-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 and, in wider terms, to know more about the s=
tatistic distribution of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">238<span class=3D"A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 delay values.</div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quo=
t;the frequency of the second marking must be not too high&quot; =C2=A0What=
 is &quot;too high&quot;?</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px">240<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pr=
e">	</span>5.=C2=A0 IANA Considerations</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">242<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 This document requests IANA to register fo=
rmat of the OAM field of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">243<span class=3D"A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 BIER Header as the=
 following:</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">[major] =C2=A73 calls these bits L and D.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px=
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] If you&#39;re assigning value=
s to all the bits in the field, then a registry is not needed.</div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] If you want =
to set up a registry to avoid others using the bits in different ways, then=
 that requires an Update to rfc8296.=C2=A0 The way I read rfc8296 is that t=
here could be multiple ways of using the field.=C2=A0 I also didn&#39;t see=
 this type of discussion in the WG archive.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">=
<br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">245<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 +--------------+---------+------------=
--------------+---------------+</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">246<span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 | Bit Posit=
ion | Marking | Description =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0| Reference =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">247<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 +-----------=
---+---------+--------------------------+---------------+</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">248<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"=
>	</span> =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0S =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Single Mark Measurement =C2=A0| This document |</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px">249<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0D =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Double Mark Measurement =C2=A0| This document |<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px">250<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 +--------------+---------+-----------------=
---------+---------------+</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px">252<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:p=
re">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 Table 1: OAM field of BIER Header</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><b=
r></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] =C2=A73 uses a different descript=
ion, which seems inline with =C2=A74.=C2=A0 Also, the use of a single bit d=
oesn&#39;t indicate (according to =C2=A74) the type of measurement done.</d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">254<span c=
lass=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>6.=C2=A0 Security=
 Considerations</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px">256<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span=
> =C2=A0 This document list the OAM requirement for BIER-enabled domain and=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">257<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 does not raise any security concerns or is=
sues in addition to ones</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">258<span class=3D"A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 common to networki=
ng.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[maj=
or] &quot;This document list the OAM requirement for BIER-enabled domain...=
&quot; =C2=A0That is not what this document does!</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;common to networkin=
g&quot; =C2=A0That&#39;s a very wide statement -- do you have a reference?<=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] =
You should at least point to rfc8296.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] I would also like to see a pointer to=
 rfc8321, and a discussion of how the concerns there apply (or not) to the =
BIER application.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px">283<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>8=
.2.=C2=A0 Informative References</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px">295<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 [RFC8321] =C2=A0Fioccola, G., Ed., Capello, A., Co=
ciglio, M., Castaldelli,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">296<span class=3D"A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0L., Chen, M., Zheng, L., Mirsky, G., and T. Mizrahi=
,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">297<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D=
"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
&quot;Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">298<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</sp=
an> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Performance Monitoring&=
quot;, RFC 8321, DOI 10.17487/RFC8321,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">299<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0January 2018, &lt;<a href=3D"https://=
www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8321">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8321</a=
>&gt;.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[=
major] This reference must be Normative.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px"><br></div></div><div class=3D"bloop_container"=
><div class=3D"bloop_frame">  </div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_signature=
"></div></body></html>

--0000000000007b8986058c3e5f27--


From nobody Fri Jun 28 16:08:58 2019
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Subject: [Bier] bier - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 105
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Dear Greg Shepherd,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    bier Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Wednesday, 24 July 2019, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530
    Room Name: Sainte-Catherine size: 100
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/sessions/bier.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Greg Shepherd

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 50
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: mboned pim mpls lsr roll




People who must be present:
  Tony Przygienda
  Greg Shepherd
  Alvaro Retana

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Fri Jun 28 16:49:05 2019
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Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Applicability of BIER Multicast Overlay for Adaptive Streaming Services
        Authors         : Dirk Trossen
                          Akbar Rahman
                          Chonggang Wang
                          Toerless Eckert
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2019-06-28

Abstract:
   HTTP Level multicast, using BIER, is described as a use case in the
   BIER Use cases document.  HTTP Level Multicast is used in today's
   video streaming and delivery services such as HLS, AR/VR etc.,
   generally realized over IP Multicast as well as other use cases such
   as software update delivery.  A realization of "HTTP Multicast" over
   "IP Multicast" is described for the video delivery use case.  IP
   multicast is commonly used for IPTV services.  DVB and BBF is also
   developing a reference architecture for IP Multicast service.  A few
   problems with IPMC, such as waste of transmission bandwidth, increase
   in signaling when there are few users are described.  Realization
   over BIER, through a BIER Multicast Overlay Layer, is described as an
   alternative.  How BIER Multicast Overlay operation improves over IP
   Multicast, such as reduction in signaling, dynamic creation of
   multicast groups to reduce signaling and bandwidth wastage is
   described.  We conclude with few next steps.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 14:22:25 -0700
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--0000000000007b5227058c7cfea8
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Hi Alvaro,
many thanks for your review, detailed questions, and the most helpful
suggestions. I've prepared the updated new version to address the nits,
minor and major issues you've pointed out. Please find my answers, notes
in-lined tagged GIM>>. We, the authors, will discuss your other comments
and respond to them soon.

Regards,
Greg

PS. Attached please find the diff and the copy of the new working version
of the draft.


On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 11:40 AM Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear authors:
>
> I just finished reading this document.  I was looking forward to reviewin=
g
> a short and straight-forward document, but ended this one with many
> questions and concerns.  Please take a look at the details.
>
> I'm starting with some overall issues/concerns:
>
> (1) This document uses the PNPM method described in rfc8321, which makes
> that RFC a required Normative reference because it "must be read to
> understand or implement the technology" [1].  Note that some of my commen=
ts
> below are precisely about being explicit with the use of PNPM; the text
> talks about the marking method in general...
>
GIM>> Moved to the Normative section of referenced documents.

>
> (2) The use of PNPM results then in the fact that this document cannot be
> on the Standards Track because rfc8321 is Experimental.  In general,
> downward references are possible, but I don't think this is one of those
> cases.  The Shepherd writeup for rfc8321 [2] states that "the measurement
> utility of this extension still is to be demonstrated at a variety of
> scales in a plurality of network conditions."  As far as I can tell, that
> hasn't been demonstrated, nor specific information about the completion o=
f
> the experiment was included in the RFC text.  I didn't see the topic of t=
he
> document status discussed in the WG -- nor am I aware of discussions abou=
t
> the maturity of rfc8321 in the ippm WG.  The result is then that this
> document should be either Informational or Experimental.
>
> (3) Before digging further into the status of rfc8321, I want to ask the
> question of the applicability of PNPM to multicast traffic, is it?  On on=
e
> hand, I see that rfc8321 reports that the "methodology has been used
> experimentally in Telecom Italia's network and is applied to
> multicast...".  On the other hand, draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark [*=
]
> starts by saying that rfc8321 "can be applied only to point-to-point
> flows".  I think that we could stretch the use of PNPM to monitor
> (referring to Figure 2) both A-C-G and A-C-F using a single set of markin=
gs
> at A...but that piece of the methodology is not specified in the document=
.
>
GIM>> I think that the characterization of the method described in RFC 8321
in draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark must be revised. The multipoint
draft discusses methods needed to use the Alternate Marking method in cases
with multiple marking nodes, i.e., mp2p and mp2mp use cases. RFC 8321
addressed use case with a single marking node in the network and such use
cases fir with p2p and p2mp scenarios.

>
> (4) Finally, what is the relationship between this document and
> draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements?  How does this document address the
> requirements?  Why isn't draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements even mentioned?
>
GIM>> Added reference to specific requirements in the Introduction section:
   The method, called Packet Network Performance Monitoring
   (PNPM), can be used to measure packet loss, latency, and jitter on
   live traffic complies with requirements #5 and #12 listed in
   [I-D.ietf-bier-oam-requirements].
>
>
>
> Given these issues (and others identified below), I am inclined to return
> this document to the WG to consider the Status, applicability, the
> relationship to other work items, etc.  I will wait for an initial respon=
se
> to these comments before doing so.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Alvaro.
>
>
> [*] draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark is an ippm WG item and one of the
> authors is also an author of rfc8321 and of this document.
>
> [1]
> https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-refere=
nces/
> [2]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/shepherdwriteup=
/
>
>
>
>
> [Line numbers from idnits.]
>
> ...
> 15 Abstract
>
> 17   This document describes a hybrid performance measurement method for
> 18   multicast service over Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain.
>
> [nit] s/over Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain/through a Bit
> Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain
>
GIM>> Agree. And removed '(BIER)'.

>
>
> ...
> 70 1.  Introduction
>
> 72   [RFC8279] introduces and explains Bit Index Explicit Replication
> 73   (BIER) architecture and how it supports forwarding of multicast data
> 74   packets.  [RFC8296] specified that in case of BIER encapsulation in
> 75   MPLS network a BIER-MPLS label, the label that is at the bottom of
> 76   the label stack, uniquely identifies the multicast flow.  [RFC8321]
> 77   describes hybrid performance measurement method, per [RFC7799]
> 78   classification of measurement methods.  Packet Network Performance
> 79   Monitoring (PNPM), which can be used to measure packet loss, latency=
,
> 80   and jitter on live traffic.  Because this method is based on marking
> 81   consecutive batches of packets the method often referred to as
> 82   Marking Method (MM).
>
> [nit] s/explains Bit Index Explicit/explains the Bit Index Explicit
>
> [nit] s/encapsulation in MPLS network/encapsulation in an MPLS network
>
> [nit] s/describes hybrid performance/describes a hybrid performance
>
> [nit] s/[RFC7799] classification of measurement methods./RFC7799's
> classification of measurement methods [RFC7799].
>
> [nit] s/Packet Network Performance Monitoring (PNPM), which can be
> used/The method, called Packet Network Performance Monitoring (PNPM), can
> be used
>
> [nit] s/the method often referred/the method is often referred
>
GIM>> Yes on them all.

>
> [major] It's not clear to me whether PNPM is known as *the* Marking
> Method, or if it is simply *a* marking method.  Please clarify.  I note
> that the later mentions to "marking method" are all in lower case, which
> seem to imply something generic -- if referring to PNPM, it would be bett=
er
> to do it explicitly.
>
GIM>> Changed to "a marking method". Removed MM from the Terminology
section.

>
> 84   This document defines how marking method can be used on BIER layer t=
o
> 85   measure packet loss and delay metrics of a multicast flow in MPLS
> 86   network.
>
> [nit] s/used on BIER layer/used on the BIER layer
>
> [nit] s/in MPLS network/in an MPLS network
>
GIM>> Done.

>
> 88 2.  Conventions used in this document
>
> 90 2.1.  Terminology
> ...
> 99   MM: Marking Method
>
> [minor] It looks like MM is only used in the Introduction...
>
GIM>> Yes, removed MM.

>
>
> ...
> 111 3.  OAM Field in BIER Header
>
> 113   [RFC8296] defined the two-bit long field, referred to as OAM,
> 114   designated for the marking performance measurement method.  The OAM
> 115   field MUST NOT be used in defining forwarding and/or quality of
> 116   service treatment of a BIER packet.  The OAM field MUST be used onl=
y
> 117   for the performance measurement of data traffic in BIER layer.
> 118   Because the setting of the field to any value does not affect
> 119   forwarding and/or quality of service treatment of a packet, the
> 120   marking method in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the
> 121   hybrid performance measurement method.
>
> [major] "designated for the marking performance measurement method"
>  rfc8296 clearly says that this document is an example of a document that
> may define the non-default use of the bits.  It doesn't designate the use
> of the bits in any way.
>
GIM>> Yes, this draft is an example of how the OAM field can be used.
Here's the update:
OLD TEXT:
   [RFC8296] defined the two-bit long field, referred to as OAM,
   designated for the marking performance measurement method.
NEW TEXT:
   [RFC8296] defined the two-bits long field, referred to as OAM.  The
   OAM field can be used for the marking performance measurement method.

>
> [major] "The OAM field MUST NOT be used in defining forwarding and/or
> quality of service treatment of a BIER packet."  This sentence seems to
> paraphrase rfc8296.  Is that the intent?  If so, that is not what rfc8296
> says: it is not Normative in the same way.
>
> If not, then I'm not sure what the Normative statement is.
>
> In general, it seems to me that there is no value in that text in this
> document.  Note that the paragraph ends with "because the setting of the
> field to any value does not affect forwarding and/or quality of service
> treatment of a packet...", which is a statement in line with rfc8296, the=
n
> there doesn't seem to be a need to include the Normative sentence at all.=
..
>
GIM>> I agree and have deleted the two sentences with the Normative
language.

>
> [major] "The OAM field MUST be used only for the performance measurement
> of data traffic in BIER layer."  What is the intended Normative action of
> this sentence?  It seems to me that it wants to avoid other uses of the O=
AM
> field...but without updating rfc8296, which says that the use of the fiel=
d
> "in other than the default manner is OPTIONAL".  IOW, this statement
> contradicts rfc8296.
>
GIM>> Removed the sentence. The updated text (see above) is as follows:
NEW TEXT:
   The OAM field can be used for the marking performance measurement
method.
>
>
> If you intend for the statement to only apply to implementations of this
> document, then you don't need to even include it: the document itself is
> about specifying the use of the OAM field (for nodes that support it).
>
> [minor] "Because the setting of the field...the marking method in BIER
> layer can be viewed as the example of the hybrid performance measurement
> method."  I don't understand how the conclusion is drawn (based on the
> setting of the field)...nor how this relates to the text in the
> Introduction where it basically says that PNPM, which is a hybrid
> performance measurement method is known as MM... ??
>
GIM>> RFC 8321 described how PNPM can be applied in the IPv4 network as a
hybrid PM method. The intent of this sentence is to note that by using the
OAM field PNPM in BIER domain can be characterized as hybrid PM method as
well. Would the updated sentence be clearer:
   Because the setting of the field to any value does not affect
   forwarding and/or quality of service treatment of a packet, using the
   OAM field for PNPM in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the
   hybrid performance measurement method.

>
> 123   The Figure 1 displays format of the OAM field
>
> [major] Please be explicit in saying that this is how this document
> defines the OAM field.
>
GIM>> Would the following be better:
   Figure 1 displays the interpretation of the OAM field defined in this
   specification for the use by PNPM method.

>
> 125    0
> 126    0   1
> 127   +-+-+-+-+
> 128   | L | D |
> 129   +-+-+-+-+
>
> 131                 Figure 1: OAM field of BIER Header format
>
> 133   where:
>
> 135   o  L - Loss flag;
>
> 137   o  D - Delay flag.
>
> [minor] Please add a forward reference to where the meaning and use of
> these flags is specified.
>
> [minor] The name of these flags doesn't really represent loss/delay...
>
> 139 4.  Theory of Operation
>
> 141   The marking method can be successfully used in the multicast
> 142   environment supported by BIER layer.  Without limiting any
> generality
> 143   consider multicast network presented in Figure 2.  Any combination
> of
> 144   markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a multicast flow by
> 145   any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress point t=
o
> 146   perform node, link, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect
> 147   performance degradation defect and localize it efficiently.
>
> [nit] "The marking method can be successfully used in the multicast
> environment supported by BIER layer."  Sounds like a marketing statement.=
..
>
GIM>> Dropped "successfully" to make it more engineer-speak.

>
> [major] "Any combination of markings...can be applied...by any Bit
> Forwarding Router (BFR)..."  rfc8296 says that the "bits are set...by the
> BFIR and are not modified by other BFRs".  What is the assumption?  Pleas=
e
> be clear!
>
GIM>> The updated text:
   Any combination of markings can be
   applied to a multicast flow by the Bit Forwarding Ingress Router (BFIR)
...

>
> 149                           -----
> 150                         --| D |
> 151                 -----  /  -----
> 152               --| B |--
> 153              /  -----  \  -----
> 154             /           --| E |
> 155   -----    /              -----
> 156   | A |---                -----
> 157   -----    \            --| F |
> 158             \  -----   /  -----
> 159              --| C |--
> 160                -----   \  -----
> 161                         --| G |
> 162                           -----
>
> 164                        Figure 2: Multicast network
>
> 166   Using the marking method, a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the
> 167   particular multicast traffic over BIER layer.  Each sub-flow
> consists
> 168   of consecutive blocks, consisting of identically marked packets,
> that
> 169   are unambiguously recognizable by a monitoring point at any BFR and
> 170   can be measured to calculate packet loss and/or packet delay
> metrics.
> 171   It is expected that the marking values be set and cleared at the
> edge
> 172   of BIER domain.  Thus for the scenario presented in Figure 2 if the
> 173   operator initially monitors A-C-G and A-B-D segments he may enable
> 174   measurements on segments C-F and B-E at any time.
>
> [major] What are sub-flows?  This question was asked in the Shepherd
> review, but no clarification made it into the document.  Note that =C2=A7=
4.1
> talks about "alternate flows" -- is that the same thing?  And =C2=A74.2 u=
ses
> "monitored flow"...
>
GIM>> The updated text is as follows:
   Using the marking method, a BFIR creates distinct sub-flows in the
   particular multicast traffic over BIER layer.  Each sub-flow consists
   of consecutive blocks of identically marked packets.  For example, a
   block of N packets, with each packet being marked as X, is followed
   by the block of M packets with each packet being marked as Y.  These
   blocks are unambiguously recognizable by a monitoring point at any
   Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) and can be measured to calculate packet
   loss and/or packet delay metrics.

>
> [nit] s/monitors A-C-G/monitors the A-C-G
>
GIM>> Done

>
> [major] "...if the operator initially monitors A-C-G and A-B-D segments h=
e
> may enable measurements on segments C-F and B-E at any time."  How?  A
> similar question was asked in the Shepherd's review, and the answer
> included this: "the AltMark domain may be arbitrary and not identical to
> the BIER domain. But from operational PoV, I believe, it is useful to app=
ly
> AltMark at BFIR and then clear them by removing BIER encapsulation at
> BFERs." [3]  However, the document doesn't have any type of discussion
> related to the existence of multiple types of domains, or their
> congruence...much less operational guidance.  Please be explicit about th=
e
> potential different domains, their relationship to the specification in
> rfc8296 and provide operational guidance in an Operational Considerations
> section.
>
GIM>> Added the Operational Consideration section.

>
> [3] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/0rn7_VSjJQPRAOxSSfnGp-kFWB=
E
>
>
> 176 4.1.  Single Mark Enabled Measurement
>
> [major] rfc8321 uses "Single-Marking" (not Single Mark).  Please be
> consistent.
>
GIM>> Changed throughout the draft s/Single Mark/Single-Marking/

>
> 178   As explained in the [RFC8321], marking can be applied to delineate
> 179   blocks of packets based either on the equal number of packets in a
> 180   block or based on equal time interval.  The latter method offers
> 181   better control as it allows better account for capabilities of
> 182   downstream nodes to report statistics related to batches of packets
> 183   and, at the same time, time resolution that affects defect detectio=
n
> 184   interval.
>
> [nit] s/in the [RFC8321]/in [RFC8321]
>
GIM>> Done

>
> 186   If the Single Mark measurement used to measure packet loss, then th=
e
> 187   D flag MUST be set to zero on transmit and ignored by monitoring
> 188   point.
>
> [nit] s/measurement used/measurement is used
>
> [nit] s/ignored by monitoring/ignored by the monitoring
>
GIM>> Done and done

>
> [major] In this document I don't see a way to discover (or detect from th=
e
> signaling) what methodology is in use.  All the nodes in the network (or =
at
> least the ones doing measurement) MUST then be configured beforehand.  Is
> that true?  Please be explicit about those type of requirements.  An
> rfc5706-type Operational Considerations section would be ideal -- look
> specially at =C2=A72.
>
GIM>> Yes, your understanding that all measurement points must be
configured is absolutely correct. I've added the text in the new section
Operational Considerations.

>
> 190   The L flag is used to create alternate flows to measure the packet
> 191   loss by switching the value of the L flag every N-th packet or at
> 192   certain time intervals.  Delay metrics MAY be calculated with the
> 193   alternate flow using any of the following methods:
>
> 195   o  First/Last Packet Delay calculation: whenever the marking, i.e.
> 196      value of L flag changes, a BFR can store the timestamp of the
> 197      first/last packet of the block.  The timestamp can be compared
> 198      with the timestamp of the packet that arrived in the same order
> 199      through a monitoring point at downstream BFR to compute packet
> 200      delay.  Because timestamps collected based on order of arrival
> 201      this method is sensitive to packet loss and re-ordering of
> packets
>
> [nit] s/at downstream BFR/at a downstream BFR
>
> [major] "this method is sensitive to packet loss and re-ordering of
> packets"  It will be important to point at the Considerations section fro=
m
> rfc8321.  It would be ideal to do so in the Operational Considerations
> section.
>
GIM>> Appreciate your feedback on the new section in the updated version of
the draft.

>
> 203   o  Average Packet Delay calculation: an average delay is calculated
> 204      by considering the average arrival time of the packets within a
> 205      single block.  A BFR may collect timestamps for each packet
> 206      received within a single block.  Average of the timestamp is the
> 207      sum of all the timestamps divided by the total number of packets
> 208      received.  Then the difference between averages calculated at tw=
o
> 209      monitoring points is the average packet delay on that segment.
> 210      This method is robust to out of order packets and also to packet
> 211      loss (only a small error is introduced).  This method only
> 212      provides a single metric for the duration of the block and it
> 213      doesn't give the minimum and maximum delay values.  This
> 214      limitation could be overcome by reducing the duration of the
> block
> 215      by means of a highly optimized implementation of the method.
>
> [minor] "Then the difference between averages calculated at two monitorin=
g
> points is the average packet delay on that segment."  Maybe my math is
> rusty, but I would have thought the average delay to be the average of th=
e
> averages, not the difference.  ??
>
GIM>> I think that the text needs improvement to clarify the math used here=
:
      Then the difference between the average packet arrival
      time calculated for the downstream monitoring point and the same
      metric but calculated at the upstream monitoring point is the
      average packet delay on the segment between these two points.

>
> [minor] "only a small error is introduced"  This seems to be a statement
> of faith: no proof or justification.
>
GIM>> The new text to explain that conclusion added:
      This method is robust to out of order packets and also to packet
      loss on the segment between the measurement points (packet loss
      may cause a minor loss of accuracy in the calculated metric
      because the number of packets used is different at each
      measurement point).

>
> [major] "This method...[has a] limitation [which] could be overcome by
> reducing the duration of the block by means of a highly optimized
> implementation of the method."  What does that mean?  How is it done?
>
GIM>> The idea is that if the the number of packets in the block is
smaller, i.e. duration is shorter, then the calculated value of the average
delay better reflects maximum and minimum delay values of that block's
duration. But to use the shorter blocks will require more efficient
implementation of the method, preferably the one that uses HW support. The
new text is to explain the idea as follows:
      This limitation of producing only the
      single metric could be overcome by reducing the duration of the
      block.  As a result, the calculated value of the average delay
      will better reflect the minimum and maximum delay values of the
      block's duration time.

>
> [major] What considerations should be taken into account when deciding th=
e
> length of time, or number of packets, to be used in each monitored flow?
> Please include this information in the Operational Considerations section=
.
>
GIM>>

>
> 217 4.2.  Double Mark Enabled Measurement
>
> [major] rfc8321 uses "Double-Marking" (not Double Mark).  Please be
> consistent.
>
GIM>> Updated throughout the document.

>
> 219   Double Mark method allows measurement of minimum and maximum delays
> 220   for the monitored flow but it requires more nodal and network
> 221   resources.  If the Double Mark method used, then the L flag MUST be
> 222   used to create the alternate flow, i.e. mark larger batches of
> 223   packets.  The D flag MUST be used to mark single packets to measure
> 224   delay jitter.
>
> [major] "If the Double Mark method used, then the L flag MUST be
> used...The D flag MUST be used..."   There's no Normative value in the us=
e
> of MUST here.  If appropriate, please use Normative language to indicate
> *how* the flags are used instead.  s/MUST/must
>
GIM>> After re-reading these sentences I think that it can be expressed
without even "must". Please let me know if the updated text is acceptable
(please note that flags have been renamed as S(ingle-Marking) and
D(ouble-Marking).
   If the Double-Marking method used, then the S flag is
   used to create the sub-flow, i.e., mark blocks of packets.  The D
   flag is used to mark single packets within a block to measure delay
   and jitter.


>
> 226   The first marking (L flag alternation) is needed for packet loss an=
d
> 227   also for average delay measurement.  The second marking (D flag is
> 228   put to one) creates a new set of marked packets that are fully
> 229   identified over the BIER network, so that a BFR can store the
> 230   timestamps of these packets; these timestamps can be compared with
> 231   the timestamps of the same packets on a second BFR to compute packe=
t
> 232   delay values for each packet.  The number of measurements can be
> 233   easily increased by changing the frequency of the second marking.
> 234   But the frequency of the second marking must be not too high in
> order
> 235   to avoid out of order issues.  This method is useful to measure not
> 236   only the average delay but also the minimum and maximum delay value=
s
> 237   and, in wider terms, to know more about the statistic distribution
> of
> 238   delay values.
>
> [major] "the frequency of the second marking must be not too high"  What
> is "too high"?
>
GIM>> I think it is finding a balance between a number of measurements to
make metrics more representative of the network conditions experienced by
the monitored flow and, on the other hand, the volume of traffic added by
collecting the measurement data. Perhaps the updated text removes the
ambiguity of "too high":
   The number of measurements can be
   easily increased by changing the frequency of the second marking.  On
   the other hand, the higher frequency of the second marking will cause
   a higher volume of the measurement data being transported through the
   BIER domain.  An operator should consider and balance both effects.

>
> 240 5.  IANA Considerations
>
> 242   This document requests IANA to register format of the OAM field of
> 243   BIER Header as the following:
>
> [major] =C2=A73 calls these bits L and D.
>
GIM>> Missed to update Section 3 to 'S' and 'D'. Should be fixed now.

>
> [major] If you're assigning values to all the bits in the field, then a
> registry is not needed.
>
> [major] If you want to set up a registry to avoid others using the bits i=
n
> different ways, then that requires an Update to rfc8296.  The way I read
> rfc8296 is that there could be multiple ways of using the field.  I also
> didn't see this type of discussion in the WG archive.
>
> 245
> +--------------+---------+--------------------------+---------------+
> 246   | Bit Position | Marking | Description              | Reference
> |
> 247
> +--------------+---------+--------------------------+---------------+
> 248   |      0       |    S    | Single Mark Measurement  | This document
> |
> 249   |      1       |    D    | Double Mark Measurement  | This document
> |
> 250
> +--------------+---------+--------------------------+---------------+
>
> 252                     Table 1: OAM field of BIER Header
>
> [major] =C2=A73 uses a different description, which seems inline with =C2=
=A74.
> Also, the use of a single bit doesn't indicate (according to =C2=A74) the=
 type
> of measurement done.
>
GIM>> I recall that the naming of the flags was discussed and there was a
suggestion to use more generic names than Loss and Delay because other
performance metrics can be measured using this method. Also, a more compact
marking method has been proposed in
draft-mizrahi-ippm-compact-alternate-marking
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mizrahi-ippm-compact-alternate-mark=
ing/>.
This method allows the measurement of packet loss and packet delay using
one-bit long field.

>
> 254 6.  Security Considerations
>
> 256   This document list the OAM requirement for BIER-enabled domain and
> 257   does not raise any security concerns or issues in addition to ones
> 258   common to networking.
>
> [major] "This document list the OAM requirement for BIER-enabled
> domain..."  That is not what this document does!
>
GIM>> Updated, please find the new text below.

>
> [major] "common to networking"  That's a very wide statement -- do you
> have a reference?
>
> [major] You should at least point to rfc8296.
>
> [major] I would also like to see a pointer to rfc8321, and a discussion o=
f
> how the concerns there apply (or not) to the BIER application.
>
GIM>> Please review the updated Security Considerations section:
 6.  Security Considerations

   Regarding using the marking method, [RFC8321] stressed two types of
   security concerns.  First, the potential harm caused by the
   measurements, is a lesser threat as [RFC8296] defines OAM field used
   by the marking method so that the value of "two bits have no effect
   on the path taken by a BIER packet and have no effect on the quality
   of service applied to a BIER packet."  Second security concern,
   potential harm to the measurements can be mitigated by using policy,
   suggested in [RFC8296], to accept BIER packets only from trusted
   routers, not from customer-facing interfaces.

   All the security considerations for BIER discussed in [RFC8296] are
   inherited by this document.
>
>
>
> ...
> 283 8.2.  Informative References
> ...
> 295   [RFC8321]  Fioccola, G., Ed., Capello, A., Cociglio, M.,
> Castaldelli,
> 296              L., Chen, M., Zheng, L., Mirsky, G., and T. Mizrahi,
> 297              "Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid
> 298              Performance Monitoring", RFC 8321, DOI 10.17487/RFC8321,
> 299              January 2018, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8321>.
>
> [major] This reference must be Normative.
>
GIM>> Done.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Alvaro,<div>many thanks for your revie=
w, detailed questions, and the most helpful suggestions. I&#39;ve prepared =
the updated new version to address the nits, minor and major issues you&#39=
;ve pointed out. Please find my answers, notes in-lined tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.=
 We, the authors, will discuss your other comments and respond to them soon=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div><br></div><div=
>PS. Attached please find the diff and the copy of the new working version =
of the draft.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 11:40 AM Alvaro R=
etana &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com">aretana.ietf@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px">Dear authors:</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px">I just finished reading this document.=C2=A0 I was =
looking forward to reviewing a short and straight-forward document, but end=
ed this one with many questions and concerns.=C2=A0 Please take a look at t=
he details.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">I&#39;m starting with some overall issues/concerns:</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">(1) This document uses the =
PNPM method described in rfc8321, which makes that RFC a required Normative=
 reference because it &quot;must be read to understand or implement the tec=
hnology&quot; [1].=C2=A0 Note that some of my comments below are precisely =
about being explicit with the use of PNPM; the text talks about the marking=
 method in general...</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Moved =
to the Normative section of referenced documents.=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word=
;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">(2) The use of PNPM results then in the fact that this docu=
ment cannot be on the Standards Track because rfc8321 is Experimental.=C2=
=A0 In general, downward references are possible, but I don&#39;t think thi=
s is one of those cases.=C2=A0 The Shepherd writeup for rfc8321 [2] states =
that &quot;the measurement utility of this extension still is to be demonst=
rated at a variety of scales in a plurality of network conditions.&quot; =
=C2=A0As far as I can tell, that hasn&#39;t been demonstrated, nor specific=
 information about the completion of the experiment was included in the RFC=
 text.=C2=A0 I didn&#39;t see the topic of the document status discussed in=
 the WG -- nor am I aware of discussions about the maturity of rfc8321 in t=
he ippm WG.=C2=A0 The result is then that this document should be either In=
formational or Experimental.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px">(3) Before digging further into the status of rfc8321,=
 I want to ask the question of the applicability of PNPM to multicast traff=
ic, is it?=C2=A0 On one hand, I see that rfc8321 reports that the &quot;met=
hodology has been used experimentally in Telecom Italia&#39;s network and i=
s applied to multicast...&quot;.=C2=A0 On the other hand, draft-ietf-ippm-m=
ultipoint-alt-mark [*] starts by saying that rfc8321 &quot;can be applied o=
nly to point-to-point flows&quot;.=C2=A0 I think that we could stretch the =
use of PNPM to monitor (referring to Figure 2) both A-C-G and A-C-F using a=
 single set of markings at A...but that piece of the methodology is not spe=
cified in the document.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I th=
ink that the characterization of the method described in RFC 8321 in draft-=
ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark must be revised. The multipoint draft discuss=
es methods needed to use the Alternate Marking method in cases with multipl=
e marking nodes, i.e., mp2p and mp2mp use cases. RFC 8321 addressed use cas=
e with a single marking node in the network and such use cases fir with p2p=
 and p2mp scenarios.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">(4) Finally, what i=
s the relationship between this document and draft-ietf-bier-oam-requiremen=
ts?=C2=A0 How does this document address the requirements?=C2=A0 Why isn&#3=
9;t draft-ietf-bier-oam-requirements even mentioned?</div></div></div></blo=
ckquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Added reference to specific requirements in the In=
troduction section:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The method, called Packet Networ=
k Performance Monitoring</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(PNPM), can be used to measure p=
acket loss, latency, and jitter on<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0live traffic complies wi=
th requirements #5 and #12 listed in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-bier-oam-req=
uirements].<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"=
overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:=
0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px=
">Given these issues (and others identified below), I am inclined to return=
 this document to the WG to consider the Status, applicability, the relatio=
nship to other work items, etc.=C2=A0 I will wait for an initial response t=
o these comments before doing so.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px">Thanks!</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px">Alvaro.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[*] draft-iet=
f-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark is an ippm WG item and one of the authors is als=
o an author of rfc8321 and of this document.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"=
><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[1] <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/bl=
og/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-references/" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-referenc=
es/</a></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[2] <a href=3D"https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/shepherdwriteup/" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-alt-mark/shepherdwriteup/</a=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px">[Line numbers from idnits.]</div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0px">15<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D=
"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Abstract</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">17<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008262008348=
9Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 This docume=
nt describes a hybrid performance measurement method for</div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px">18<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" st=
yle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 multicast service over Bit Ind=
ex Explicit Replication (BIER) domain.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/over Bit Index Explicit Replication =
(BIER) domain/through a Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) domain</div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Agree. And removed &#39;(BIER)&#39=
;.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px">...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">70<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008=
2620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>1.=C2=A0 I=
ntroduction</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">72<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 [RFC8279] introduces and explains Bit I=
ndex Explicit Replication</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">73<span class=3D"g=
mail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	<=
/span> =C2=A0 (BIER) architecture and how it supports forwarding of multica=
st data</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">74<span class=3D"gmail-m_85306900826=
20083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 pack=
ets. =C2=A0[RFC8296] specified that in case of BIER encapsulation in</div><=
div style=3D"margin:0px">75<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-=
tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 MPLS network a BIE=
R-MPLS label, the label that is at the bottom of</div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px">76<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 the label stack, uniquely identifies t=
he multicast flow. =C2=A0[RFC8321]</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">77<span c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre=
-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 describes hybrid performance measurement method, per=
 [RFC7799]</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">78<span class=3D"gmail-m_85306900=
82620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 c=
lassification of measurement methods.=C2=A0 Packet Network Performance</div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px">79<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Appl=
e-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 Monitoring (PNPM=
), which can be used to measure packet loss, latency,</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">80<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 and jitter on live traffic.=C2=A0=
 Because this method is based on marking</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">81<=
span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 consecutive batches of packets the method ofte=
n referred to as</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">82<span class=3D"gmail-m_85=
30690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =
=C2=A0 Marking Method (MM).</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/explains Bit Index Explicit/explains the Bit In=
dex Explicit</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px">[nit] s/encapsulation in MPLS network/encapsulation in an MPLS network=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s=
/describes hybrid performance/describes a hybrid performance</div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/[RFC7799] clas=
sification of measurement methods./RFC7799&#39;s classification of measurem=
ent methods [RFC7799].</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/Packet Network Performance Monitoring (PNPM), which=
 can be used/The method, called Packet Network Performance Monitoring (PNPM=
), can be used</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0px">[nit] s/the method often referred/the method is often referred</div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes on them all.=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: b=
reak-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] It&#39;s not clear to me whether PNPM is k=
nown as *the* Marking Method, or if it is simply *a* marking method.=C2=A0 =
Please clarify.=C2=A0 I note that the later mentions to &quot;marking metho=
d&quot; are all in lower case, which seem to imply something generic -- if =
referring to PNPM, it would be better to do it explicitly.</div></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Changed to &quot;a marking method&quot;. Rem=
oved MM from the Terminology section.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">84=
<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 This document defines how marking method can =
be used on BIER layer to</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">85<span class=3D"gm=
ail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</=
span> =C2=A0 measure packet loss and delay metrics of a multicast flow in M=
PLS</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">86<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008262008=
3489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 network.=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s=
/used on BIER layer/used on the BIER layer</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><=
br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/in MPLS network/in an MPLS netwo=
rk</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Done.=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: brea=
k-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0px">88<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>2.=C2=A0 Conventions used in =
this document</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px">90<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>2.1.=C2=A0 Terminology</div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0px">...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">99<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069=
0082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0=
 MM: Marking Method</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px">[minor] It looks like MM is only used in the Introduction...</d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, removed MM.=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap=
: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px">111<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-=
tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>3.=C2=A0 OAM Field in BIER=
 Header</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">=
113<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white=
-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 [RFC8296] defined the two-bit long field, =
referred to as OAM,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">114<span class=3D"gmail-=
m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span=
> =C2=A0 designated for the marking performance measurement method.=C2=A0 T=
he OAM</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">115<span class=3D"gmail-m_85306900826=
20083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 fiel=
d MUST NOT be used in defining forwarding and/or quality of</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">116<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span=
" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 service treatment of a BIE=
R packet.=C2=A0 The OAM field MUST be used only</div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">117<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 for the performance measurement of dat=
a traffic in BIER layer.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">118<span class=3D"g=
mail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	<=
/span> =C2=A0 Because the setting of the field to any value does not affect=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">119<span class=3D"gmail-m_85306900826200834=
89Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 forwarding=
 and/or quality of service treatment of a packet, the</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">120<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 marking method in BIER layer can=
 be viewed as the example of the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">121<span cl=
ass=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-=
wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 hybrid performance measurement method.</div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;designat=
ed for the marking performance measurement method&quot; =C2=A0rfc8296 clear=
ly says that this document is an example of a document that may define the =
non-default use of the bits.=C2=A0 It doesn&#39;t designate the use of the =
bits in any way.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, this d=
raft is an example of how the OAM field can be used. Here&#39;s the update:=
</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8296] defined the two-bit l=
ong field, referred to as OAM,</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0designated for the marking=
 performance measurement method.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">NEW TEXT:<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8296] defined the two-bits=
 long field, referred to as OAM.=C2=A0 The<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0OAM field can be=
 used for the marking performance measurement method.<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">=
<div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px">[major] &quot;The OAM field MUST NOT be used in defining forwa=
rding and/or quality of service treatment of a BIER packet.&quot; =C2=A0Thi=
s sentence seems to paraphrase rfc8296.=C2=A0 Is that the intent?=C2=A0 If =
so, that is not what rfc8296 says: it is not Normative in the same way.</di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">If not, the=
n I&#39;m not sure what the Normative statement is.</div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">In general, it seems to me that=
 there is no value in that text in this document.=C2=A0 Note that the parag=
raph ends with &quot;because the setting of the field to any value does not=
 affect forwarding and/or quality of service treatment of a packet...&quot;=
, which is a statement in line with rfc8296, then there doesn&#39;t seem to=
 be a need to include the Normative sentence at all...</div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I agree and have deleted the two sentences with =
the Normative language.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0=
px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &=
quot;The OAM field MUST be used only for the performance measurement of dat=
a traffic in BIER layer.&quot; =C2=A0What is the intended Normative action =
of this sentence?=C2=A0 It seems to me that it wants to avoid other uses of=
 the OAM field...but without updating rfc8296, which says that the use of t=
he field &quot;in other than the default manner is OPTIONAL&quot;.=C2=A0 IO=
W, this statement contradicts rfc8296.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>G=
IM&gt;&gt; Removed the sentence. The updated text (see above) is as follows=
:</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The OAM field can be used for the m=
arking performance measurement method.=C2=A0<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"=
margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">I=
f you intend for the statement to only apply to implementations of this doc=
ument, then you don&#39;t need to even include it: the document itself is a=
bout specifying the use of the OAM field (for nodes that support it).</div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] &quot=
;Because the setting of the field...the marking method in BIER layer can be=
 viewed as the example of the hybrid performance measurement method.&quot; =
=C2=A0I don&#39;t understand how the conclusion is drawn (based on the sett=
ing of the field)...nor how this relates to the text in the Introduction wh=
ere it basically says that PNPM, which is a hybrid performance measurement =
method is known as MM... ??</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; =
RFC 8321 described how PNPM can be applied in the IPv4 network as a hybrid =
PM method. The intent of this sentence is to note that by using the OAM fie=
ld PNPM in BIER domain can be characterized as hybrid PM method as well. Wo=
uld the updated sentence be clearer:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because the set=
ting of the field to any value does not affect<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarding a=
nd/or quality of service treatment of a packet, using the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0O=
AM field for PNPM in BIER layer can be viewed as the example of the<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0hybrid performance measurement method.<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">=
<div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px">123<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 The Figure 1 displays format =
of the OAM field</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0px">[major] Please be explicit in saying that this is how this documen=
t defines the OAM field.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Wou=
ld the following be better:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 1 displays the interpr=
etation of the OAM field defined in this<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0specification=
 for the use by PNPM method.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">125<s=
pan class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-spac=
e:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A00</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">126<span=
 class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:p=
re-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A00 =C2=A0 1</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">12=
7<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">128=
<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 | L | D |</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">129<=
span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px">131<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008262008348=
9Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 1: OAM field of BIER Header f=
ormat</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">13=
3<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 where:</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px">135<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489=
Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 o =C2=A0L - =
Loss flag;</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">137<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 o =C2=A0D - Delay flag.</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] Please add a fo=
rward reference to where the meaning and use of these flags is specified.</=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] T=
he name of these flags doesn&#39;t really represent loss/delay...</div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">139<span class=3D=
"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=
	</span>4.=C2=A0 Theory of Operation</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">141<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 The marking m=
ethod can be successfully used in the multicast</div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">142<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 environment supported by BIER layer.=
=C2=A0 Without limiting any generality</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">143<s=
pan class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-spac=
e:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 consider multicast network presented in Figure =
2.=C2=A0 Any combination of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">144<span class=
=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p">	</span> =C2=A0 markings, Loss and/or Delay, can be applied to a multica=
st flow by</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">145<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690=
082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =
any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR) at either ingress or egress point to</div><=
div style=3D"margin:0px">146<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple=
-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 perform node, lin=
k, segment or end-to-end measurement to detect</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">147<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 performance degradation defect and loca=
lize it efficiently.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px">[nit] &quot;The marking method can be successfully used in the=
 multicast environment supported by BIER layer.&quot; =C2=A0Sounds like a m=
arketing statement...</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Droppe=
d &quot;successfully&quot; to make it more engineer-speak.=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: b=
reak-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;Any combination of markings...can be=
 applied...by any Bit Forwarding Router (BFR)...&quot; =C2=A0rfc8296 says t=
hat the &quot;bits are set...by the BFIR and are not modified by other BFRs=
&quot;.=C2=A0 What is the assumption?=C2=A0 Please be clear!</div></div></d=
iv></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The updated text:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0A=
ny combination of markings can be<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0applied to a multicast fl=
ow by the Bit Forwarding Ingress Router (BFIR) ...<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;=
"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">149<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span=
" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----</div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0px">150<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-ta=
b-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --| D |</div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px">151<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- =C2=A0/ =C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">152<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 --| B |--</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">153<span class=3D"gmail=
-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</spa=
n> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/ =C2=A0----- =C2=A0\ =
=C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">154<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069=
0082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 / =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --=
| E |</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">155<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008262=
0083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 -----=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----</div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px">156<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Appl=
e-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 | A |--- =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">157<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 ----- =C2=A0 =C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--| F |</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">158<s=
pan class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-spac=
e:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \ =C2=A0----=
- =C2=A0 / =C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">159<span class=3D"gma=
il-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</s=
pan> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--| C |--</div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px">160<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-s=
pan" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0----- =C2=A0 \ =C2=A0-----</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">161<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --| G |</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">162<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">164<span class=3D"gmail=
-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</spa=
n> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 2: Multicast network</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">166<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083=
489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 Using the=
 marking method, a BFR creates distinct sub-flows in the</div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px">167<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 particular multicast traffic =
over BIER layer.=C2=A0 Each sub-flow consists</div><div style=3D"margin:0px=
">168<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 of consecutive blocks, consisting of ide=
ntically marked packets, that</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">169<span class=
=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p">	</span> =C2=A0 are unambiguously recognizable by a monitoring point at =
any BFR and</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">170<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069=
0082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0=
 can be measured to calculate packet loss and/or packet delay metrics.</div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px">171<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489App=
le-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 It is expected =
that the marking values be set and cleared at the edge</div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px">172<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" sty=
le=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 of BIER domain.=C2=A0 Thus for =
the scenario presented in Figure 2 if the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">17=
3<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 operator initially monitors A-C-G and A-B-D =
segments he may enable</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">174<span class=3D"gma=
il-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</s=
pan> =C2=A0 measurements on segments C-F and B-E at any time.</div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] What are sub-=
flows?=C2=A0 This question was asked in the Shepherd review, but no clarifi=
cation made it into the document.=C2=A0 Note that =C2=A74.1 talks about &qu=
ot;alternate flows&quot; -- is that the same thing?=C2=A0 And =C2=A74.2 use=
s &quot;monitored flow&quot;...</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&=
gt; The updated text is as follows:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using the marking met=
hod, a BFIR creates distinct sub-flows in the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0particular mu=
lticast traffic over BIER layer.=C2=A0 Each sub-flow consists<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0of consecutive blocks of identically marked packets.=C2=A0 For example, =
a<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0block of N packets, with each packet being marked as X, i=
s followed<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0by the block of M packets with each packet being=
 marked as Y.=C2=A0 These<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0blocks are unambiguously recogniz=
able by a monitoring point at any<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bit Forwarding Router (BF=
R) and can be measured to calculate packet<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0loss and/or=
 packet delay metrics.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0=
px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/m=
onitors A-C-G/monitors the A-C-G</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;=
&gt; Done=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;...if the=
 operator initially monitors A-C-G and A-B-D segments he may enable measure=
ments on segments C-F and B-E at any time.&quot; =C2=A0How?=C2=A0 A similar=
 question was asked in the Shepherd&#39;s review, and the answer included t=
his: &quot;the AltMark domain may be arbitrary and not identical to the BIE=
R domain. But from operational PoV, I believe, it is useful to apply AltMar=
k at BFIR and then clear them by removing BIER encapsulation at BFERs.&quot=
; [3] =C2=A0However, the document doesn&#39;t have any type of discussion r=
elated to the existence of multiple types of domains, or their congruence..=
.much less operational guidance.=C2=A0 Please be explicit about the potenti=
al different domains, their relationship to the specification in rfc8296 an=
d provide operational guidance in an Operational Considerations section.</d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Added the Operational Consider=
ation section.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[3] <a href=3D"http=
s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/0rn7_VSjJQPRAOxSSfnGp-kFWBE" target=
=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/0rn7_VSjJQPRAOxSSfnG=
p-kFWBE</a></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">176<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008=
2620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>4.1.=C2=A0=
 Single Mark Enabled Measurement</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] rfc8321 uses &quot;Single-Marking&quot; (n=
ot Single Mark).=C2=A0 Please be consistent.</div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div>GIM&gt;&gt; Changed throughout the draft s/Single Mark/Single-Marking/=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin=
:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">178<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690=
082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =
As explained in the [RFC8321], marking can be applied to delineate</div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0px">179<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-t=
ab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 blocks of packets b=
ased either on the equal number of packets in a</div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">180<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 block or based on equal time interval.=
=C2=A0 The latter method offers</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">181<span cla=
ss=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-w=
rap">	</span> =C2=A0 better control as it allows better account for capabil=
ities of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">182<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008=
2620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 do=
wnstream nodes to report statistics related to batches of packets</div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0px">183<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-ta=
b-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 and, at the same tim=
e, time resolution that affects defect detection</div><div style=3D"margin:=
0px">184<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 interval.</div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/in the [RFC8321]/in [RFC832=
1]</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Done=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break=
-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px">186<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 If the Single Mark me=
asurement used to measure packet loss, then the</div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">187<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 D flag MUST be set to zero on transmit=
 and ignored by monitoring</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">188<span class=3D=
"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=
	</span> =C2=A0 point.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/measurement used/measurement is used</div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/ignored by mon=
itoring/ignored by the monitoring</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt=
;&gt; Done and done=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><=
div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] In thi=
s document I don&#39;t see a way to discover (or detect from the signaling)=
 what methodology is in use.=C2=A0 All the nodes in the network (or at leas=
t the ones doing measurement) MUST then be configured beforehand.=C2=A0 Is =
that true?=C2=A0 Please be explicit about those type of requirements.=C2=A0=
 An rfc5706-type Operational Considerations section would be ideal -- look =
specially at =C2=A72.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, y=
our understanding that all measurement points must be configured is absolut=
ely correct. I&#39;ve added the text in the new section Operational Conside=
rations.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">190<span class=3D"gmail=
-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</spa=
n> =C2=A0 The L flag is used to create alternate flows to measure the packe=
t</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">191<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083=
489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 loss by s=
witching the value of the L flag every N-th packet or at</div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px">192<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 certain time intervals.=C2=A0=
 Delay metrics MAY be calculated with the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">19=
3<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 alternate flow using any of the following me=
thods:</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">1=
95<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 o =C2=A0First/Last Packet Delay calculation=
: whenever the marking, i.e.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">196<span class=
=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value of L flag changes, a BFR can store th=
e timestamp of the</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">197<span class=3D"gmail-m=
_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0first/last packet of the block.=C2=A0 The timestamp ca=
n be compared</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">198<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530=
690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with the timestamp of the packet that arrived in the same =
order</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">199<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008262=
0083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0through a monitoring point at downstream BFR to compute packet</d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">200<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
delay.=C2=A0 Because timestamps collected based on order of arrival</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px">201<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-=
tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this =
method is sensitive to packet loss and re-ordering of packets</div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[nit] s/at downstream=
 BFR/at a downstream BFR</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;this method is sensitive to packet loss and =
re-ordering of packets&quot; =C2=A0It will be important to point at the Con=
siderations section from rfc8321.=C2=A0 It would be ideal to do so in the O=
perational Considerations section.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&g=
t;&gt; Appreciate your feedback on the new section in the updated version o=
f the draft.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">203<span class=3D"gma=
il-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</s=
pan> =C2=A0 o =C2=A0Average Packet Delay calculation: an average delay is c=
alculated</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">204<span class=3D"gmail-m_85306900=
82620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0by considering the average arrival time of the packets within =
a</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">205<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083=
489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0single block.=C2=A0 A BFR may collect timestamps for each packet</div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px">206<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489App=
le-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0re=
ceived within a single block.=C2=A0 Average of the timestamp is the</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px">207<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-=
tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sum o=
f all the timestamps divided by the total number of packets</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">208<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span=
" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0received.=C2=
=A0 Then the difference between averages calculated at two</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">209<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span=
" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monitoring po=
ints is the average packet delay on that segment.</div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px">210<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D=
"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This method is robust t=
o out of order packets and also to packet</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">21=
1<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0loss (only a small error is int=
roduced).=C2=A0 This method only</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">212<span cl=
ass=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-=
wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provides a single metric for the duratio=
n of the block and it</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">213<span class=3D"gmai=
l-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</sp=
an> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn&#39;t give the minimum and maximum delay valu=
es.=C2=A0 This</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">214<span class=3D"gmail-m_853=
0690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0limitation could be overcome by reducing the duration of t=
he block</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">215<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008=
2620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0by means of a highly optimized implementation of the method.</=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] &=
quot;Then the difference between averages calculated at two monitoring poin=
ts is the average packet delay on that segment.&quot; =C2=A0Maybe my math i=
s rusty, but I would have thought the average delay to be the average of th=
e averages, not the difference. =C2=A0??</div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the text needs improvement to clarify the math us=
ed here:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Then the difference between the ave=
rage packet arrival<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 time calculated for the downstr=
eam monitoring point and the same<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 metric but calcul=
ated at the upstream monitoring point is the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 averag=
e packet delay on the segment between these two points.=C2=A0<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px">[minor] &quot;only a small error is introduced&qu=
ot; =C2=A0This seems to be a statement of faith: no proof or justification.=
</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The new text to explain tha=
t conclusion added:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This method is robust to out =
of order packets and also to packet<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 loss on the seg=
ment between the measurement points (packet loss<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ma=
y cause a minor loss of accuracy in the calculated metric<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 because the number of packets used is different at each<br><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 measurement point).=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
px">[major] &quot;This method...[has a] limitation [which] could be overcom=
e by reducing the duration of the block by means of a highly optimized impl=
ementation of the method.&quot; =C2=A0What does that mean?=C2=A0 How is it =
done?</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The idea is that if th=
e the number of packets in the block is smaller, i.e. duration is shorter, =
then the calculated value of the average delay better reflects maximum and =
minimum delay values of that block&#39;s duration. But to use the shorter b=
locks will require more efficient implementation of the method, preferably =
the one that uses HW support. The new text is to explain the idea as follow=
s:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This limitation of producing only the<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 single metric could be overcome by reducing the durati=
on of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 block.=C2=A0 As a result, the calculated =
value of the average delay<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 will better reflect the =
minimum and maximum delay values of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 block&#39;s=
 duration time.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] What conside=
rations should be taken into account when deciding the length of time, or n=
umber of packets, to be used in each monitored flow?=C2=A0 Please include t=
his information in the Operational Considerations section.</div></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">217<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">	</span>4.2.=C2=A0 Double Mark Enabled Measurement</div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] rfc8=
321 uses &quot;Double-Marking&quot; (not Double Mark).=C2=A0 Please be cons=
istent.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Updated throughout t=
he document.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">219<span class=3D"gma=
il-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</s=
pan> =C2=A0 Double Mark method allows measurement of minimum and maximum de=
lays</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">220<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620=
083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 for th=
e monitored flow but it requires more nodal and network</div><div style=3D"=
margin:0px">221<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" st=
yle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 resources.=C2=A0 If the Double=
 Mark method used, then the L flag MUST be</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">2=
22<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 used to create the alternate flow, i.e. mar=
k larger batches of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">223<span class=3D"gmail-=
m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span=
> =C2=A0 packets.=C2=A0 The D flag MUST be used to mark single packets to m=
easure</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">224<span class=3D"gmail-m_85306900826=
20083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 dela=
y jitter.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px=
">[major] &quot;If the Double Mark method used, then the L flag MUST be use=
d...The D flag MUST be used...&quot; =C2=A0 There&#39;s no Normative value =
in the use of MUST here.=C2=A0 If appropriate, please use Normative languag=
e to indicate *how* the flags are used instead. =C2=A0s/MUST/must</div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; After re-reading these sentences I th=
ink that it can be expressed without even &quot;must&quot;. Please let me k=
now if the updated text is acceptable (please note that flags have been ren=
amed as S(ingle-Marking) and D(ouble-Marking).</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If th=
e Double-Marking method used, then the S flag is<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0used to cr=
eate the sub-flow, i.e., mark blocks of packets.=C2=A0 The D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0flag is used to mark single packets within a block to measure delay<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and jitter.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px">226<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D=
"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 The first marking (L flag alternatio=
n) is needed for packet loss and</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">227<span cl=
ass=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-=
wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 also for average delay measurement.=C2=A0 The second =
marking (D flag is</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">228<span class=3D"gmail-m=
_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>=
 =C2=A0 put to one) creates a new set of marked packets that are fully</div=
><div style=3D"margin:0px">229<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489App=
le-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 identified over=
 the BIER network, so that a BFR can store the</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">230<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 timestamps of these packets; these time=
stamps can be compared with</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">231<span class=
=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p">	</span> =C2=A0 the timestamps of the same packets on a second BFR to co=
mpute packet</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">232<span class=3D"gmail-m_85306=
90082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=
=A0 delay values for each packet.=C2=A0 The number of measurements can be</=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px">233<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489=
Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 easily incre=
ased by changing the frequency of the second marking.</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">234<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 But the frequency of the second =
marking must be not too high in order</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">235<sp=
an class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space=
:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 to avoid out of order issues.=C2=A0 This method =
is useful to measure not</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">236<span class=3D"g=
mail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	<=
/span> =C2=A0 only the average delay but also the minimum and maximum delay=
 values</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">237<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082=
620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 and=
, in wider terms, to know more about the statistic distribution of</div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0px">238<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-t=
ab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 delay values.</div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot=
;the frequency of the second marking must be not too high&quot; =C2=A0What =
is &quot;too high&quot;?</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I t=
hink it is finding a balance between a number of measurements to make metri=
cs more representative of the network conditions experienced by the monitor=
ed flow and, on the other hand, the volume of traffic added by collecting t=
he measurement data. Perhaps the updated text removes the ambiguity of &quo=
t;too high&quot;:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The number of measurements can be<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0easily increased by changing the frequency of the second marki=
ng.=C2=A0 On<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the other hand, the higher frequency of the se=
cond marking will cause<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0a higher volume of the measurement =
data being transported through the<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER domain.=C2=A0 =
An operator should consider and balance both effects.=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-=
word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px">240<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-=
span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>5.=C2=A0 IANA Considerations</=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">242<span =
class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pr=
e-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 This document requests IANA to register format of t=
he OAM field of</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">243<span class=3D"gmail-m_85=
30690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =
=C2=A0 BIER Header as the following:</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] =C2=A73 calls these bits L and D.</div=
></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Missed to update Section 3 to &#=
39;S&#39; and &#39;D&#39;. Should be fixed now.=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"=
><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">[major] If you&#39;re assigning values to all the bits in t=
he field, then a registry is not needed.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] If you want to set up a registry t=
o avoid others using the bits in different ways, then that requires an Upda=
te to rfc8296.=C2=A0 The way I read rfc8296 is that there could be multiple=
 ways of using the field.=C2=A0 I also didn&#39;t see this type of discussi=
on in the WG archive.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">245<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span=
" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 +--------------+---------+=
--------------------------+---------------+</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">=
246<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white=
-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 | Bit Position | Marking | Description =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Reference =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">247<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489A=
pple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 +------------=
--+---------+--------------------------+---------------+</div><div style=3D=
"margin:0px">248<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0S =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Single Mark Measurement =
=C2=A0| This document |</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">249<span class=3D"gm=
ail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</=
span> =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0D =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| Double Mark Measurement =C2=A0| This document |</div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0px">250<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-s=
pan" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 +--------------+-------=
--+--------------------------+---------------+</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">252<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082=
620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Table 1: OAM fi=
eld of BIER Header</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0px">[major] =C2=A73 uses a different description, which seems inline=
 with =C2=A74.=C2=A0 Also, the use of a single bit doesn&#39;t indicate (ac=
cording to =C2=A74) the type of measurement done.</div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I recall that the naming of the flags was discussed a=
nd there was a suggestion to use more generic names than Loss and Delay bec=
ause other performance metrics can be measured using this method. Also, a m=
ore compact marking method has been proposed in=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mizrahi-ippm-compact-alternate-marking/">draft-=
mizrahi-ippm-compact-alternate-marking</a>. This method allows the measurem=
ent of packet loss and packet delay using one-bit long field.</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: brea=
k-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0px">254<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-ta=
b-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>6.=C2=A0 Security Considerat=
ions</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">256=
<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 This document list the OAM requirement for BI=
ER-enabled domain and</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">257<span class=3D"gmai=
l-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</sp=
an> =C2=A0 does not raise any security concerns or issues in addition to on=
es</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">258<span class=3D"gmail-m_853069008262008=
3489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 common t=
o networking.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0px">[major] &quot;This document list the OAM requirement for BIER-enabled=
 domain...&quot; =C2=A0That is not what this document does!</div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Updated, please find the new text below.</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow=
-wrap: break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] &quot;common to networking&quot; =
=C2=A0That&#39;s a very wide statement -- do you have a reference?</div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[major] You shou=
ld at least point to rfc8296.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0px">[major] I would also like to see a pointer to rfc8321=
, and a discussion of how the concerns there apply (or not) to the BIER app=
lication.</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Please review the =
updated Security Considerations section:</div><div>=C2=A06.=C2=A0 Security =
Considerations</div><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Regarding using the marking method, [R=
FC8321] stressed two types of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0security concerns.=C2=A0 Firs=
t, the potential harm caused by the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0measurements, is a less=
er threat as [RFC8296] defines OAM field used<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0by the markin=
g method so that the value of &quot;two bits have no effect<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0on the path taken by a BIER packet and have no effect on the quality<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of service applied to a BIER packet.&quot; =C2=A0Second securi=
ty concern,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0potential harm to the measurements can be mitig=
ated by using policy,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0suggested in [RFC8296], to accept BIE=
R packets only from trusted<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0routers, not from customer-faci=
ng interfaces.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0All the security considerations for BIER=
 discussed in [RFC8296] are<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0inherited by this document.<blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0px">283<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-ta=
b-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>8.2.=C2=A0 Informative Refer=
ences</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">...</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">295=
<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 [RFC8321] =C2=A0Fioccola, G., Ed., Capello, A=
., Cociglio, M., Castaldelli,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">296<span class=
=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0L., Chen, M., Z=
heng, L., Mirsky, G., and T. Mizrahi,</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">297<sp=
an class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space=
:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;A=
lternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid</div><div style=3D"margin:0p=
x">298<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Performance Monitoring&quot;, RFC 8321, DOI 10.17487/RFC8321,</div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px">299<span class=3D"gmail-m_8530690082620083489Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0January 2018, &lt;<a href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org=
/info/rfc8321" target=3D"_blank">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8321</a=
>&gt;.</div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div style=3D"margin:0px">[=
major] This reference must be Normative.</div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>GIM&gt;&gt; Done.=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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