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Hi Jeffrey,

Thank you for your explanation for comment 3#. It's right. The encapsulatio= n sub-TLV advertisement is optional. I got it. Thank you!
For comment 4, I thought you would like to cover the OSPFv3 extension in th= is draft. But you are right may it will be a better way to mention the exte= nsion in OSPFv3 draft.
Thank you!

Best regards,
Sandy

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: BIER = <bier-bounces@ietf.org> =B4=FA=B1=ED Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzha= ng=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2019=C4=EA10=D4=C21=C8=D5 2:37
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: EXT-zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <zhang.zheng@zte.c= om.cn>; gjshep@gmail.com <gjshep@gmail.com>
=B3=AD=CB=CD: bier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php
 

Hi Sandy,

 

Thanks for your comments.

Please see zzh> below.

 

From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 3:55 AM
To: gjshep@gmail.com; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net= >
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re:[Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php

 

Hi Greg,

 

I think this draft is useful in extending BIER deployment.

I do support the progess of this draft.

 

And I have some comments on this version of draft:

  1. [I-D.ietf-bier-ospf-bier-extensions] should be replaced by R= FC8444.

Zzh> Yes.

  1. In section 3, the "Label Range Base" should be mod= ified to "Label". 

Zzh> Yes.

  1. With the "Implicit Null Label" advertisement, the = associated "BS Len" should be set to 0 to avoid confusion.

    2. Zzh> That is for a particular BSL, so BS Len should not be 0. If one = wants a simple signaling for =A1=B0I don=A1=AFt support BIER at all but ple= ase do PHP=A1=B1, then it should just use the PHP sub-TLV w/o advertising e= ncap sub-TLV.

    4. A nit in section 5, the "OSPFv2" should be "OSPFv3&quo= t;.

    Zzh> This is indeed OSPFv2. OSPFv3 signaling draft is newer, so unles= s this PHP draft is delayed, I=A1=AFd rather mention PHP in the OSPFv3 draf= t.

    Zzh> Thanks! I will post a revision soon.

    Zzh> Jeffrey

    Thanks,

    Sandy

     

    =D4=AD= =CA=BC=D3=CA=BC=FE

    = =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BAGregShepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>

    = =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BABIER WG <bier@= ietf.org>;

    = =C8=D5 =C6=DA =A3=BA2019= =C4=EA07=D4=C231=C8= =D5 03:19

    = =D6=F7 =CC=E2 =A3=BA[Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-= php

    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/bier

    Please read and respond to this thread:

     

    EOTWT: Aug 13th.

     

    Thanks,

    Shep

    (chairs)

     

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Hi Jeffrey,

The modification looks good to me.

Thanks,
Sandy

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: BIER = <bier-bounces@ietf.org> =B4=FA=B1=ED Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzha= ng=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2019=C4=EA10=D4=C21=C8=D5 5:21
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: EXT-zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <zhang.zheng@zte.c= om.cn>; nils.warnke@telekom.de <nils.warnke@telekom.de>; ice@cisco= .com <ice@cisco.com>
=B3=AD=CB=CD: bier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Bier] comments on draft-zzhang-bier-tether-03
 

Hi Sandy,

 

Thanks for your comments =A8C good catches!

 

Please see if the following addresses them:

 

3.1.  IGP Signaling
 
   Suppose that =
the BIER domain uses BIER signaling extensions to ISIS
   [RFC8401] or =
OSPF [RFC8444].  The helper node (BFRx) MUST advertise
   one or more B=
IER Helped Node sub-sub-TLVs (one for each helped node).
   The value is =
BIER prefix of the helped node (X) followed by a one-
   octet priorit=
y field, and one-octet reserved field.  The length is 6
   for IPv4 and =
18 for IPv6 respectively.
 
   The post-SPF =
processing procedures in Section 6.9 of the BIER
   architecture =
specification [RFC8279] are modified as following for
   BIER tetherin=
g purpose.
 
   At step 2, th=
e removed node is added to an ordered list maintained
   with each chi=
ld that replaces the node.  If the removed node already
   has a non-emp=
ty list maintained with itself, add the removed node to
   the tail of t=
he list and copy the list to each child.
 
   At the end, t=
he calculating node BFR-B would use a unicast tunnel to
   reach next ho=
p BFRs for some BFERs.  The next hop BFR has an ordered
   list created =
at step 2 above, recording each BIER incapable node
   replaced by t=
heir children along the way.  For a particular BFER to
   be reached vi=
a a tunnel to the next hop BFR, additional procedures
   are performed=
 as following.
 
   o  Start=
ing with the first node in the ordered list of incapable
    &n=
bsp; nodes, say N1, check if there is one or more helper nodes for N1.
    &n=
bsp; If not, go the next node in the list.
 
   o  Order=
 all the helper nodes of N1 based descending (priority, BIER
    &n=
bsp; prefix).  Starting with the first one, say H1, check if BFR-B
    &n=
bsp; could use H1 as LFA next hop to reach the BFER.  If yes, H1 is
    &n=
bsp; used as the next hop BFR for the BFER and the procedure stops.  I=
f
    &n=
bsp; not, go to the next helper in order.
 
   o  If no=
ne of the helper nodes of N1 can be used, go to the next node
    &n=
bsp; in the list of incapable nodes.
 
   If the above =
procedure finishes without finding any helper, then the
   original BFR =
next hop via a tunnel is used to reach the BFER.

 

 

Jeffrey

 

From: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2019 11:44 PM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; nils.warnke@= telekom.de; ice@cisco.com
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] comments on draft-zzhang-bier-tether-03

 

Hi Jeffrey, co-authors,

 

I have read the newest version of draft "draft-zzhang-bier-tether&q= uot;. I think it's well written and helpful for BIER deployment.

And I have some comments:

1. In section 3 about the IGP/BGP signaling, because a Helper can help m= ore than one non-BFR node, there will be more than one Helped Node sub-sub-= TLV shown in the signaling. But one helped prefix MUST be shown only once.

So one sentence about it may be added in the section to make it more cle= ar.

 

2. About the IGP SPF calculation procedure, IMO it's better to explain t= he algorithm modification of [RFC8279] section 6.9. Like:

This sentence may be added in Step 2:

But the node's prefix SHOULD be noted for Helping check.

A Step 4 may be added:

When BFR-B finds that one node signals as the helper of one or more help= ed nodes, BFR-B MUST check if the helped node is bypassed. If the helped no= de is bypassed, BFR-B SHOULD replace the existed tunnel from BFR-B that byp= ass the helped node with the helper node as the child node. If more than one helper existed for a helped node,= the one which has the highest priority is selected.

 

Thanks,

Sandy

--_000_MN2PR07MB7341EA18C751958B08A95B098E9D0MN2PR07MB7341namp_-- From nobody Thu Oct 3 18:26:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF9C1200F4; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:26:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <157015236349.1628.4946970765468061671@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 18:26:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-php-03.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 01:26:04 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER Penultimate Hop Popping Author : Zhaohui Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-php-03.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2019-10-03 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) can be used as provider tunnel for Multicast Virtual Private Network (MVPN) [RFC6514], Global Table Multicast [RFC7716] or Ethernet Virtual Private Network (EVPN) [RFC7432]. It is possible that not all routers in the provider network support BIER and there are various methods to handle BIER incapable transit routers. However those methods assume the MVPN/ EVPN Provider Edges (PEs) are BIER capable. This document specifies a method to allow BIER incapable routers to act as MVPN/EVPN PEs with BIER as the transport, by having the upstream BIER Forwarding Router (BFR) that is connected directly or indirectly via a tunnel to a BIER incapable PE remove the BIER header and send the payload to the PE. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-php/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-php-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZHelr8YazbNW for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97486120019 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19341548057; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:03:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 1545F440015; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:03:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:03:32 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Dirk Trossen Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191004140332.GA20516@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 14:03:40 -0000 Sorry for getting back to this so late. Yes, very helpful. will fold suggestions into next rev before 106. On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 10:13:04AM +0000, Dirk Trossen wrote: > All, > > As volunteered during the recent Montreal WG meeting, I've reviewed the BIER-TE draft with the following comments with the notation "pXpYlZ" to be read as "page X paragraph Y line Z" (not counting section headings as a paragraph) for easier reference in the nitpick comments below (i.e., for small corrections): > > 1. Overall, the draft is very comprehensive in description and well structured as well as detailed in the various aspects of its descriptions. Generally, I am very supportive to seeing this draft progress and I'm very curious on seeing/hearing/reading about realizations. > 2. Content comments: > * The draft well motivates the use of BPs indicating forwarding adjacencies rather than BFERs for the purpose of traffic engineering with comparisons to the BIER model of forwarding in the various parts of the draft. As a possible 'external' reference, it might be useful to refer to work on path-based forwarding in SDN environments that is based on the same motivation and has similarities at the solution detail level (albeit simpler in many ways since not connected to BIER). The introduction could possibly have such link to "M. J. Reed, M. Al-Naday, N. Thomos, D. Trossen, G. Petropoulos, S. Spirou, Stateless multicast switching in software defined networks, ICC 2016, Kuala Lumpur, Maylaysia, 2016" > * In Section 2, there is a reference to four 'layers' but I personally find the notion of a 'BIER-TE Controller Host' as a separate layer confusing, firstly starting with the mapping of a single 'host' entity to a 'layer' but also since even the text itself outlines the 'BIER-TE Controller Host' and its connections to the BF(I/E)Rs as the 'control plane' of BIER-TE. So I wonder if 'BIER-TE control plane' would be a more adequate name? > * Section 2.2.3 talks about per-multicast flow and its state in the BFIR. It might be worthwhile to link this sub-section to the 'HTTP multicast overlay' draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01) where said state would be maintained in the SH. Main point here is that multicast state, in my view, can (and maybe should?) be maintained by the multicast flow overlay. > * In Section 2.3, i.e., p11p2s6, the sentence talks about "the BFR resets all BitPositions in the BitString of the packet to which it can create a copy". From my understanding, the BitPositions to all forwarding adjacencies to which a copy is created are reset, while I would think that the sentence above might be understood as simply resetting all BitPositions if a copy is being created. So maybe changing this into "the BFR resets all those BitPositions in the BitString of the packet of all those forwarding adjacencies to which it can create a copy" would avoid such confusion. > * In Section 3.4, Figure 5 shows a BIER-TE Forwarding Example. While this makes sense to me, given the flow of the document, it nevertheless duplicates similar figures in Section 1, specifically Figure 1 and 2. Either we leave this and simply have those two places of explanation, following the flow of description, or possibly simply refer in Section 3.4 back to Figures 1 and 2 in Section 1 in order to streamline the draft. > * In Section 7.2, i.e., p29p4l2, there is a statement on bit efficiency ("...easily be as low as 20% or as high as 80%"). I would really like to see a reference to evidence to this since I'm very interested in the numbers but it's always good to link them to something, particularly when being so specific. > * Section 8 compares SR and BIER-TE, which I like seeing in the draft. I would argue that the possibility for creating opportunistic multicast relations (through a simple binary OR of unicast relations) is a significant advantage over SR. Here, a possible link to the 'HTTP multicast overlay' draft (see link above) might be useful, which makes use of this capability. > 3. Nitpicks: > * P4p1l1: "adjacencies" change to "adjacencies" > * P5p1l2: "6 BFR..." to "6 BFRs..." (with my working assumptions that an acronym is singular) > * P5p1l2: "All BFR..." change to "All BFRs..." > * P6p1l4: "...BFR1 to to send..." change to "...BFR1 to send..." > * P6p3l3: "...in the prior casse." change to "...in the prior case." > * P7p3l1: "...consists of the BIFT of all the the" change to "...consists of the BIFT of all the" > * P9p3l1: "During 'bring-up..." change to "During set-up..." or "During initial configuration..." > * P13p2l4: "The can be used" change to "They can be used" > * P13p6l1: "...to the BIER BIFT and are are" change to "...to the BIER BIFT and are" > * P17p2l6: "This Basic BIER-TE requirements make..." change to "These basic BIER-TE requirements make..." > * P21p1l3: "example is not mean as a likely setup" change to "example is not meant as a likely setup" > * P29p1l1: "which lead to" change to "which leads to" > * P30p6l1: "For non-leaf BFER, ..." change to "For a non-leaf BFER, ...." > * P30p7l1: "As explained earlier in the document, leaf BFER do..." change to "As explained earlier in the document, leaf BFERs do..." > > I hope this is useful. > > Best, > > Dirk > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Oct 4 11:27:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451321200D8 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DG-navrJDt3k for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F72212013D for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id m7so7485630lji.2 for ; Fri, 04 Oct 2019 11:27:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QYSg4qjFmRMu/5sOyBPkOPSfTjsI/+nIJHJW2pLsvUw=; b=c/J+HS8Ykffy8KA7qW6OO6DxpuaPDURQaWmyTgWy1s2GrRHT11RlC25/+9qrLC4i0r QFIYwJW+Z3XST6K5sRJ8hrkNDFWkbP15HbcGVXqEHaYaH5+imvDWwZeapYMmuHSLrZeK nzrkm3a0KWLCju3JmPvl4xSq34ybrUzZeKfKajpOp2HeJEQxyDAN7QazQyLB63H977yk 0RZAPbY954Z1DUoXJjgblOXU09UoNB5UTTQGynridssq6t6r/ITMC7xbiKhkcKk3GEGz 4H4SgFxYphrh9q9rIlwFGGEE0briG0SkI092v7xI2+Hg1VYZO/g3m0RJ0JrvZSzoLYsl kbqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QYSg4qjFmRMu/5sOyBPkOPSfTjsI/+nIJHJW2pLsvUw=; b=muMhFDlsgTuNUErqfGToEUWa3sJeY4m16dJs6BsoSVdMr66Kjz0m2U1pavNJgllqSo Z2ERCUzG1vni98jxesizVe8XqQwhWKOXZXRdalKN1BkTVbbFTIG6+mSalXFt0iV+NYRt sAxxtcjxov1Y+yeF9XaZ006lkzwOri+PQpIelJgct3vOvwtiGBO37eekcHE5n/Bj+ldX IcRrGmZWRAu31ATbcMMLGilcVqcOhC6x1b8oXvdKowZwKFLhOikAOWeytRSs6/2eSBnc SDIo2PJvaCy2n6hNMHC5jb3/cuzgEpPJD6Tk8OsrzYSfEiScVL8Bz70mdleNeS12eQP/ fxzA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWBHCWoprUYbt8xuUnP/OjyMihxFCJ/4SF/vD9DSOFzpLhQLd5t 1W3lscNld5wyIuP48pFFY4liXwfIWhZ1Svoftp8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy2Skb1VzHZGKBx9IusTqtOGg7Q5XbuZembhMN4uVUi7gQ5bLvETZvRhisGlgVpEccGvdiA+tlrfSf48eEH98E= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8199:: with SMTP id e25mr7436473ljg.246.1570213634634; Fri, 04 Oct 2019 11:27:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89429DD1-EB74-4641-A222-3522770DD471@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:27:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , BIER WG , "gjshep@gmail.com" , "EXT-zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9f8ff059419d9fc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 18:27:19 -0000 --000000000000e9f8ff059419d9fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeffrey, thank you for your consideration and for addressing my comments. Regards, Greg On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:29 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > Hi, > > > > I have posted -03 revision that addresses all comments from Greg, > Nagendra, and Sandy: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-php-03.txt. > > > > Thanks! > > Jeffrey > > > > *From:* Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > *Sent:* Saturday, September 28, 2019 3:55 PM > *To:* 'Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)' ; BIER WG < > bier@ietf.org>; gjshep@gmail.com > *Subject:* RE: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php > > > > Hi Nagendra, > > > > Please see zzh> below. > > > > *From:* Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) > *Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2019 7:19 AM > *To:* gjshep@gmail.com; BIER WG > *Cc:* draft-ietf-bier-php@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php > > > > =EF=BB=BFHi, > > > > Support. > > > > I have a couple of comments as below: > > > > 1. Based on the Introduction section, the upstream BFR that pops the > BIER header can be directly to PE (BIER incapable) or through a tunnel= . In > case of non-directly connected BFR, Is it really =E2=80=9CPHP=E2=80=9D= or is it BIER to LSP > stitching?. > > > > Zzh> From BIER point of view, it is indeed PHP, because it happens on the > BFR upstream of the edge router (the BFER if it did support BIER). > > > > 1. In addition to the assumption/limitation mentioned in the start of > Section 3, I think this draft assumes the presence of LSP tunnel betwe= en > the upstream BFR and BIER-incapable PE. If it is non-MPLS network, doe= s it > expect to encapsulate with IP/UDP?. Either way, I think it is better t= o > clarify the same in the draft. > > > > Zzh> Any tunnel is fine. Please also see below for the restriction > mentioned in the start of Section 3 (where IP tunnels may be used in case > of EVPN-vxlan/gre). > > > > 1. The introduction says the below: > > =E2=80=9C > > While the above text uses MVPN/EVPN as example, BIER PHP is > > applicable to any scenario where the multicast flow overlay edge > > router does not support BIER.=E2=80=9D > > > > The above appears to contradict with section 3 that says, BIER PHP is > applicable only when BIER NH =3D1. > > > > Zzh> Good catch. It does apply to the following scenario as well, as > described in the earlier version of the spec ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-bier-php-01): > > > > The procedures in this section can be applied only if, by means > > outside the scope of this document, it is known that one of the > > following conditions is met. > > > > o The payload after BIER header is IPv4 or IPv6 (i.e., the Proto > > field in the BIER header is 4 or 6). > > Notice that in this case the Destination Address in the IPv4/IPv6 > > header must be in the address space for the BIER layer. > > > > Zzh> It was taken out per advices given during WG adoption I think, but > the introduction section was not changed accordingly. The reason for taki= ng > it out is that for the =E2=80=9CBFER=E2=80=9D to route IP (multicast) pac= kets it needs to > know the RPF interface, so it=E2=80=99s likely to use GTM [RFC7716] with = a DCB > label [bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label], which is covered by the conditi= on > in section 3. > > > > Zzh> On the other hand, when BIER is used for EVPN-overlay ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-evpn-01), since the > vxlan/nvgre header uses global VNI/VSID to identify broadcast domains, it > will also work. > > > > Zzh> In short, as long as the BFER does not rely on knowing the BFIR, it > will work. > > > > Zzh> So I plan to add =E2=80=9Cas long as the edge router does not need t= o know > the transmitting BFIR=E2=80=9D to the text you quoted, and add the vxlan/= nvgre > scenario to section 3. > > Zzh> Thanks! > > Zzh> Jeffrey > > > > Regards, > > Nagendra > > > > *From: *BIER on behalf of Greg Shepherd < > gjshep@gmail.com> > *Reply-To: *"gjshep@gmail.com" > *Date: *Friday, September 20, 2019 at 5:22 PM > *To: *BIER WG > *Subject: *Re: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php > > > > We're long past Aug 13th and not one response. PLEASE read and respond or > we'll just let this expire. > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:23 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > > Please read and respond to this thread: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-php/ > > > > > EOTWT: Aug 13th. > > > > Thanks, > > Shep > > (chairs) > > --000000000000e9f8ff059419d9fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jeffrey,
thank you for your consideration and for a= ddressing my comments.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:29 PM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

I have posted -03 revision that addresses all commen= ts from Greg, Nagendra, and Sandy: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-php-03.txt.=

=C2=A0

Thanks!

Jeffrey

=C2=A0

From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 3:55 PM
To: 'Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)' <naikumar@cisco.com>; BIER WG = <bier@ietf.org>= ;; gjshep@gmail.com
Subject: RE: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php

=C2=A0

Hi Nagendra,

=C2=A0

Please see zzh> below.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=EF=BB=BFHi,

=C2=A0

Support.

=C2=A0

I have a couple of comments as below:<= /p>

=C2=A0

  1. Based on the Introduction section, the upstream BFR that pops the = BIER header can be directly to PE (BIER incapable) or through a tunnel. In = case of non-directly connected BFR, Is it really =E2=80=9CPHP=E2=80=9D or is it BIER to LSP stitching?.=

=C2=A0

Zzh> From BIER point of view, it is indeed PHP, b= ecause it happens on the BFR upstream of the edge router (the BFER if it di= d support BIER).

=C2=A0

  1. In addition to the assumption/limitation mentioned in the start of= Section 3, I think this draft assumes the presence of LSP tunnel between t= he upstream BFR and BIER-incapable PE. If it is non-MPLS network, does it expect to encapsulate with IP/UDP?. Eit= her way, I think it is better to clarify the same in the draft.

=C2=A0

Zzh> Any tunnel is fine. Please also see below fo= r the restriction mentioned in the start of Section 3 (where IP tunnels may= be used in case of EVPN-vxlan/gre).

=C2=A0

  1. The introduction says the below:

=E2=80=9C

While the above text uses MVPN/EVPN as example, BIER= PHP is

=C2=A0=C2=A0 applicable to any scenario where the mu= lticast flow overlay edge

=C2=A0=C2=A0 router does not support BIER.=E2=80=9D<= u>

=C2=A0

The above appears to contradict with section 3 that = says, BIER PHP is applicable only when BIER NH =3D1.

=C2=A0

Zzh> Good catch. It does apply to the following s= cenario as well, as described in the earlier version of the spec (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-bier-php-01):

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 The procedures in this section can = be applied only if, by means

=C2=A0=C2=A0 outside the scope of this document,= it is known that one of the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 following conditions is met.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The payload after BIER head= er is IPv4 or IPv6 (i.e., the Proto

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 field in the BIER= header is 4 or 6).

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Notice that in th= is case the Destination Address in the IPv4/IPv6

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 header must be in= the address space for the BIER layer.

=C2=A0

Zzh> It was taken out per advices given during WG= adoption I think, but the introduction section was not changed accordingly= . The reason for taking it out is that for the =E2=80=9CBFER=E2=80=9D to ro= ute IP (multicast) packets it needs to know the RPF interface, so it=E2=80=99s likely to use GTM [RFC7716] with a DCB label [bess-mvpn-ev= pn-aggregation-label], which is covered by the condition in section 3.

=C2=A0

Zzh> On the other hand, when BIER is used for EVP= N-overlay (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-evpn-01),= since the vxlan/nvgre header uses global VNI/VSID to identify broadcast domains, it will also work.

=C2=A0

Zzh> In short, as long as the BFER does not rely = on knowing the BFIR, it will work.

=C2=A0

Zzh> So I plan to add =E2=80=9Cas long as the edg= e router does not need to know the transmitting BFIR=E2=80=9D to the text y= ou quoted, and add the vxlan/nvgre scenario to section 3.

Zzh> Thanks!

Zzh> Jeffrey

=C2=A0

Regards,

Nagendra

=C2=A0

From: = BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "gjshep@gmail.com" <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 20, 2019 at 5:22 PM
To: BIER WG <b= ier@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php

=C2=A0

We're long past Aug 13th and not one response. P= LEASE read and respond or we'll just let this expire.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 11:23 AM Greg Shepherd <<= a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

Please read and respond to this thread:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

EOTWT: Aug 13th.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Shep

(chairs)

--000000000000e9f8ff059419d9fc-- From nobody Fri Oct 4 11:46:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E9D120025; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: aretana.ietf@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org, gjshep@gmail.com, bier-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157021476963.1169.9290752431445946416.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 11:46:09 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] bier - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 18:46:10 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Greg Shepherd, a Chair of the bier working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Greg Shepherd Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 30 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: mpls pim lsr mboned roll spring People who must be present: Tony Przygienda Greg Shepherd Alvaro Retana Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Oct 7 19:54:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC7A120125 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 19:54:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: 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boundary="_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F1B07nkgeml514mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:12:39 -0000 --_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F1B07nkgeml514mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSmVmZnJleSwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIG11Y2ggZm9yIHRoZSBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9uLg0KT25lLWhv cCB1bmljYXN0IHR1bm5lbCBpcyBub3QgbmVjZXNzYXJ5LCBhbmQgSSBhc3N1bWUgYSBwYWNrZXQg bWF5IGxvb2sgbGlrZSB0aGlzOiBFdGhlcm5ldCh0eXBlPTB4ODg0NykgKyBEQ0IgTGFiZWwgKyBJ UCBQYWNrZXQuDQpBbmQgdGh1cyB0aGUgUEhQIGRvbuKAmXQgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkgZGV0YWlsIHRo ZSDigJh1bmljYXN0IHR1bm5lbOKAmSBmaW5kaW5nIHByb2NlZHVyZS4NClRoZXkgYm90aCB3b3Jr 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2019 19:24:59 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Xiejingrong , "gjshep@gmail.com" , BIER WG Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php Thread-Index: AQHVRwPuV2YhpunzfEGIFPIq32MyKqc1ZMuAgBz9XoCAAQ0ScIAAmF4AgABj3uA= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 19:24:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F167D@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F1B07@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F1B07@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.2.0.14 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [173.76.174.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f931bfbe-53ec-47b8-1780-08d74db78a5b x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR05MB3020: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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<16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F1FD8@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F167D@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F1B07@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.217.214] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F1FD8nkgeml514mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 05:12:48 -0000 --_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9F1FD8nkgeml514mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Oct 2019 19:10:56 +0000 From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" To: "draft-zhang-bier-source-protection@ietf.org" CC: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-zhang-bier-source-protection Thread-Index: AQHVhrDvHS2l94bjjUyzZR++4xcdIw== Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 19:10:56 +0000 Message-ID: <93425EF9-97C5-4431-8DEF-15F3C6F797ED@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mankamis@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c8:1005::1d7] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4517c2d9-cef6-4d6f-b653-08d754c811ad x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR11MB1416: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-forefront-prvs: 01952C6E96 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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t2WpyDkOiBtq/ubpzOr0YuhCT51hDiilU9n86nfd7C0/YTew3iw2QtX1yQobU9WDiRANdzIyKAKBLqJXFPetX4C3OeJbea0SE63BEyV+hAZ19AybNs1j0H/qJkXrDTKsRCHPSINLy+wi3lM/DVBLdreZL8X5fXJX0jvWDSOlVHEFfHiZ5gck8rsog1VSXhAAeeFW3k0/i5w/JCFDbuFevQ0fC1G9Vp7ivcPk7JCXFcNqwKBep4eAs3mRpIZjvPVgs4QV6fLPK/f3v62afeKg6bFBPbI39fuJI8dO6Mha8GgSDwy5EieWqYb8rPr46PO5c5xgGWnMqYch5NXwvLiKu9gx9INVsHElCiWw1buJvEdjSU+ou2mng9B5Tz4CFOS/ItMlvBdjta6M4m5NC9Yg/24EPn6ttEOPcbR22lrOAMc= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2108987608239D4CBFB733FE9DD9A934@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4517c2d9-cef6-4d6f-b653-08d754c811ad X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Oct 2019 19:10:56.1344 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vr98yvcRk5BcH3qw+pGvPDJ/Mk0s2Fn/C1s8z9SksQqf+HFaX3WwM2sB+8LitT5yyzVaahKBXGYox7xHEWCcTg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR11MB1416 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.20, xch-aln-010.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] draft-zhang-bier-source-protection X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 19:11:34 -0000 Authors,=20 Wondering if we really need this procedure for source protection. I am assu= ming you are considering the case where source ie behind LAN. It is correct= , that join can land any where and possibly different set of Egress routers= would join different ingress router. But if there is any failure, will IGP= not take care of it ? If reachability to source changes, why does Egress r= outer need to know this and try to join some other ingress router ?=20 Mankamana= From nobody Mon Oct 21 02:30:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDEC12008A; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 02:30:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rY8d2ysfkGyx; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 02:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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aGFuZ2VzLCZuYnNwO3doeSZuYnNwO2RvZXMmbmJzcDtFZ3Jlc3MmbmJzcDtyb3V0ZXImbmJzcDtu ZWVkJm5ic3A7dG8mbmJzcDtrbm93Jm5ic3A7dGhpcyZuYnNwO2FuZCZuYnNwO3RyeSZuYnNwO3Rv Jm5ic3A7am9pbiZuYnNwO3NvbWUmbmJzcDtvdGhlciZuYnNwO2luZ3Jlc3MmbmJzcDtyb3V0ZXIm bmJzcDs/Jm5ic3A7PGJyPjxicj5NYW5rYW1hbmE8YnI+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX188YnI+QklFUiZuYnNwO21haWxpbmcmbmJzcDtsaXN0PGJy PkJJRVJAaWV0Zi5vcmc8YnI+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9i aWVyPC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PHA+PGJyPjwvcD48L2Rpdj4= --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_002_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Tue Oct 22 18:19:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81CF120219; Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:19:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.107.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <157179354764.24810.15480693951900290838@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:19:07 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling-07.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:19:08 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : PIM Signaling Through BIER Core Authors : Hooman Bidgoli Jayant Kotalwar Fengman Xu Mankamana Mishra Zhaohui Zhang Andrew Dolganow Filename : draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling-07.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2019-10-22 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain multicast related per-flow state. Neither does BIER require an explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. Such header contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by the according set of bits switched on in BIER packet header. This document describes the procedure needed for PIM Joins and Prunes to be signaled through a BIER core. Allowing PIM routers to run traditional PIM multicast services through a BIER core. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Oct 23 07:16:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EBD12082B; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:16:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.107.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <157184019820.19993.3017247051462703781@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:16:38 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:16:39 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : Traffic Engineering for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER-TE) Authors : Toerless Eckert Gregory Cauchie Michael Menth Filename : draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04.txt Pages : 40 Date : 2019-10-23 Abstract: This memo introduces per-packet stateless strict and loose path engineered replication and forwarding for Bit Index Explicit Replication packets ([RFC8279]). This is called BIER-TE. BIER-TE leverages the BIER architecture ([RFC8279]) and extends it with a new semantic for bits in the bitstring. BIER-TE can leverage BIER forwarding engines with little or no changes. In BIER, the BitPositions (BP) of the packets bitstring indicate BIER Forwarding Egress Routers (BFER), and hop-by-hop forwarding uses a Routing Underlay such as an IGP. In BIER-TE, BitPositions indicate adjacencies. The BIFT of each BFR are only populated with BPs that are adjacent to the BFR in the BIER- TE topology. The BIER-TE topology can consist of layer 2 or remote (route) adjacencies. The BFR then replicates and forwards BIER packets to those adjacencies. This results in the aforementioned strict and loose path forwarding. BIER-TE can co-exist with BIER forwarding in the same domain, for example by using separate sub-domains. In the absence of routed adjacencies, BIER-TE does not require a BIER routing underlay, and can then be operated without requiring an IGP routing protocol. BIER-TE operates without explicit in-network tree-building and carries the multicast distribution tree in the packet header. It can therefore be a good fit to support multicast path steering in Segment Routing (SR) networks. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Oct 23 07:32:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4531200E6 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.684 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.684 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iyUX_V-BDqrm for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4297C120825 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EAF5548029; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:31:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 27B21440015; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:31:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:31:52 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Dirk Trossen Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191023143152.GA22509@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:32:02 -0000 Dirk: Thanks so much for your review. Comments inline. Fixes from your review have been included in the -04 version of the document. http://tools.ietf.org//rfcdiff?url1=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03.txt&url2=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04.txt Cheers Toerless On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 10:13:04AM +0000, Dirk Trossen wrote: > All, > > As volunteered during the recent Montreal WG meeting, I've reviewed the BIER-TE draft with the following comments with the notation "pXpYlZ" to be read as "page X paragraph Y line Z" (not counting section headings as a paragraph) for easier reference in the nitpick comments below (i.e., for small corrections): > > 1. Overall, the draft is very comprehensive in description and well structured as well as detailed in the various aspects of its descriptions. Generally, I am very supportive to seeing this draft progress and I'm very curious on seeing/hearing/reading about realizations. Thanks! > 2. Content comments: > * The draft well motivates the use of BPs indicating forwarding adjacencies rather than BFERs for the purpose of traffic engineering with comparisons to the BIER model of forwarding in the various parts of the draft. As a possible 'external' reference, it might be useful to refer to work on path-based forwarding in SDN environments that is based on the same motivation and has similarities at the solution detail level (albeit simpler in many ways since not connected to BIER). The introduction could possibly have such link to "M. J. Reed, M. Al-Naday, N. Thomos, D. Trossen, G. Petropoulos, S. Spirou, Stateless multicast switching in software defined networks, ICC 2016, Kuala Lumpur, Maylaysia, 2016" Sure. Let me know if you are not fine with the following paragraph added into section 1 (introduction) to reference the ICC document and i think similar work in the context of ROLL by Carsten: Note that related work , uses bloom filters to represent leaves or edges of the intended delivery tree. Bloom filters can support larger trees with fewer adressing bits, but they introduce the heuristic risk of false positives and can not reset bits in the bitstring during forwarding to avoid loops. For these reasons, BIER-TE does not use bloom filters, but explicit bitstrings like BIER. > * In Section 2, there is a reference to four 'layers' but I personally find the notion of a 'BIER-TE Controller Host' as a separate layer confusing, firstly starting with the mapping of a single 'host' entity to a 'layer' but also since even the text itself outlines the 'BIER-TE Controller Host' and its connections to the BF(I/E)Rs as the 'control plane' of BIER-TE. So I wonder if 'BIER-TE control plane' would be a more adequate name? Right. Changed Section 2 title and text from layer to components, also added "BIER-TE control plane" below "BIER-TE controller host", text e.g.: End to end BIER-TE operations consists of four mayor components: The "Multicast Flow Overlay", the "BIER-TE control plane" consisting of the "BIER-TE Controller Host" and its signaling channels to the BFR, the "Routing Underlay" and the "BIER-TE forwarding layer". The Bier-TE Controller Host is the new architectural component in BIER-TE compared to BIER. > * Section 2.2.3 talks about per-multicast flow and its state in the BFIR. It might be worthwhile to link this sub-section to the 'HTTP multicast overlay' draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01) where said state would be maintained in the SH. Main point here is that multicast state, in my view, can (and maybe should?) be maintained by the multicast flow overlay. Fixed text to 2.2.3: The BIER-TE controller host interacts with the multicast flow overlay to determine what multicast flow needs to be sent by a BFIR to which set of BFER. .... See for a solution describing this interaction. Hope this is sufficient. > * In Section 2.3, i.e., p11p2s6, the sentence talks about > "the BFR resets all BitPositions in the BitString of the packet to which it can create a copy". > From my understanding, the BitPositions to all forwarding adjacencies to which a copy is created are reset, while I would think that the sentence above might be understood as simply resetting all BitPositions if a copy is being created. > So maybe changing this into > "the BFR resets all those BitPositions in the BitString of the packet of all those forwarding adjacencies to which it can create a copy" > would avoid such confusion. Thanks, but your sentence also looks somewhat confusing (at least to me). Changed to: Before sending any copy, the BFR resets all BP in the BitString of the packet for which the BFR has one or more adjacencies in the BIFT, except when the adjacency indicates "DoNotReset" (DNR, see ) (added mentioning of DNR, it was an oversight that it was not in here). > * In Section 3.4, Figure 5 shows a BIER-TE Forwarding Example. While this makes sense to me, given the flow of the document, it nevertheless duplicates similar figures in Section 1, specifically Figure 1 and 2. Either we leave this and simply have those two places of explanation, following the flow of description, or possibly simply refer in Section 3.4 back to Figures 1 and 2 in Section 1 in order to streamline the draft. Right. I have added the following text tos tart of 3.4 now: [RFC Editor: remove this section.] THIS SECTION TO BE REMOVED IN RFC BECAUSE IT WAS SUPERCEEDED BY SECTION 1.1 EXAMPLE - UNLESS REVIEWERS CHIME IN AND EXPRESS DESIR E TO KEEP THIS ADDITIONAL EXAMPLE SECTION. > * In Section 7.2, i.e., p29p4l2, there is a statement on bit efficiency ("...easily be as low as 20% or as high as 80%"). I would really like to see a reference to evidence to this since I'm very interested in the numbers but it's always good to link them to something, particularly when being so specific. I am not aware of a good published formal analysis of the number of edges vs. leaves in a topology. The 20/80% just came from extrapolating simple cases such as a tree-like topology for the 20% (number of edges is log(n), where n is the number leaves), vs. DataCenter topologies with high-number of ECMP path options (hence also ECMP adjacencies to more effectively manage those). So, i changed the wording to be more vague *sigh*: The total number of bits to describe the topology vs. the BFER in a BIFT:SI can range widely based on the size of the topology and the amount of alternative paths in it. The higher the percentage, the higher the likelihood, that those topology bits are not just BIER-TE overhead without additional benefit, but instead that they will allow to express desirable traffic-engineering path alternatives. > * Section 8 compares SR and BIER-TE, which I like seeing in the draft. I would argue that the possibility for creating opportunistic multicast relations (through a simple binary OR of unicast relations) is a significant advantage over SR. Here, a possible link to the 'HTTP multicast overlay' draft (see link above) might be useful, which makes use of this capability. Added at end of section: Both BIER and BIER-TE allow BFIR to "opportunistically" copy packets to a set of desired BFER on a packet-by-packet basis. In BIER, this is done by or'ing the BP for the desired BFER. In BIER-TE this can be done by or'ing for each desired BFER a bitstring using the "independent branches" approach described in and therefore also indicating the engineered path towards each desired BFER. This is the approach that relies on. > 3. Nitpicks: > * P4p1l1: "adjacencies" change to "adjacencies" > * P5p1l2: "6 BFR..." to "6 BFRs..." (with my working assumptions that an acronym is singular) > * P5p1l2: "All BFR..." change to "All BFRs..." > * P6p1l4: "...BFR1 to to send..." change to "...BFR1 to send..." > * P6p3l3: "...in the prior casse." change to "...in the prior case." > * P7p3l1: "...consists of the BIFT of all the the" change to "...consists of the BIFT of all the" > * P9p3l1: "During 'bring-up..." change to "During set-up..." or "During initial configuration..." > * P13p2l4: "The can be used" change to "They can be used" > * P13p6l1: "...to the BIER BIFT and are are" change to "...to the BIER BIFT and are" > * P17p2l6: "This Basic BIER-TE requirements make..." change to "These basic BIER-TE requirements make..." > * P21p1l3: "example is not mean as a likely setup" change to "example is not meant as a likely setup" > * P29p1l1: "which lead to" change to "which leads to" > * P30p6l1: "For non-leaf BFER, ..." change to "For a non-leaf BFER, ...." > * P30p7l1: "As explained earlier in the document, leaf BFER do..." change to "As explained earlier in the document, leaf BFERs do..." Thank you so much. > I hope this is useful. Very much so. Cheers Toerless > Best, > > Dirk From nobody Wed Oct 23 07:32:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996AB120130 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:32:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vNkL5v7qLJxX for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7941F1200E6 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C21D548029; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:32:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 99119440015; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:32:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:32:38 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn Cc: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20191023143238.GB22509@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201804121520243382476@zte.com.cn> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-00 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:32:46 -0000 Sandy, I am a bit puzzled, rechecking the mailing list, i thought i had replied to your review, but seemingly only partial. Mea maxima culpa. Replies to your review inline, fixes in -04. Diff here. http://tools.ietf.org//rfcdiff?url1=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03.txt&url2=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04.txt Thanks a lot! Cheers Toerless P.S.: The TE yang model draft is in my queue, but blocked by first getting this doc into IESG, so i am sure to know what the yang model would need to cover. On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 03:20:24PM +0800, zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn wrote: > Hi authors, > > There are some small nits in several example parts, IMO it's better to revise them though these nits may not lead to misunderstanding. > 1)In section 3.4, > a, "pXX indicate ...... For example, > p9 is the adjacency towards BFR9 on the LAN connecting to BFER2." > ---There isn't BFR9 in the figure, it should be BFR5. Ack. > b, "BFIR2 forwards based on that BitString...... > Only p13 is in BitString which has an adjacency towards BFR3. BFIR2 resets p2 in BitString and sends a copy towards BFR2." > ---It should be: > ---Only p2 is in BitString which has an adjacency towards BFR3. BFIR2 resets p2 in BitString and sends a copy towards BFR3." > > > 2), In the second paragraph of section 3.5, > "When a packet is received, ......, but not BIER-T > itself. It is expected ......." > ---It is "BIER-TE". Paragraph was changed/removed in later version already. > 3) In the pseudocode of section 6, > > "for (Index = 0; Index++ ; Index <= BitStringLength) > if(BIFT[Index] != ) > MyBitsOfInterest != 2<<(Index-1)" > > ---My understanding is MyBitsOfInterest is the collection of the non-zero bps in a BIFT array. The corresponding bit in MyBitsOfInterest should be set to 1 when BIFT[Index]'s value is non-zero. If my understanding is right, it seems like the pseudocode should be: > > > "for (Index = 0; Index++ ; Index < BitStringLength) > if(BIFT[Index] != ) > MyBitsOfInterest |= 1<<(Index);" > > And this modification is also suitable for the ForwardBierTePacket pseudocode example in section 6. Yepp, correct, but i did remove the text in question in -01 because i wanted to simplify the forwarding code, and these mybitsofinteret where purely performance optimizations. > 4) In the first paragraph of section 7.5.1, > > "Consider a network setup with a bitstring length of 256 for a network > topology ...... The network has 6 areas, > each with ca. 180 BFR, connecting via a core with some larger (core) > BFR. To address all BFER with BIER, 4 SI are required." > > ---It seems like 4 SIs for 256 BitStringLength are not enough to hold 180*6=1080 BFERs. To modify simply, 170 BFR is suitable. Thanks, fixed. > 5) In the pseudocode of section 6, > > The "interface" mentioned in ForwardBierTePacket pseudocode seems the same as "adjacency". Should it be modified uniformly? I think this is fine without changes. Bits have some adjacency/ies associated with them. forward_connected is one such adjacency. An adjacency may have parameters. interface,neighbor,DNR are the parameters of the adjacency. Let me know if there is still anything confusing to you in this terminology, or if something like hat sentence should be put into the text as additional clarification. > BTW: In section 4.7, I am not understanding well about the usage of seed. Are these seeds' value in BFR1/2/3's BIFT entry same? > > Could you please add more detail about how to use it? So, i changed the text to talk about seed1 and seed2 to make it clearer, that in the picture all three BFR use the same seed1 and that the problem i solved by using seed1 and seed2. I also preceeded the explanation with text stating that the document does not standardize an ECMP algorithm, but giving an example algorithm to better understand the explanations. forward(packet, ECMP(adj(0), adj(1),... adj(N-1), seed)): i = (packet(bier-header-entropy) XOR seed) % N forward packet to adj(i) Let me know if the enhanced text is sufficient. Thank you so much Toerless > Thanks, > > Sandy From nobody Wed Oct 23 07:34:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C9A120130 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:34:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2TGLmBdneGbP for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84B641200E6 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A405B548026 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:34:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id A2B27440015; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:34:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:34:01 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <20191023143401.GA40585@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <157184019820.19993.3017247051462703781@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <157184019820.19993.3017247051462703781@ietfa.amsl.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:34:08 -0000 Just posted -04 of subject draft including feedback for reviews by Dirk and (delayed, mea culpa) Sandy. More reviews gratiously welcome! Diff is here: http://tools.ietf.org//rfcdiff?url1=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03.txt&url2=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04.txt To summarize the non-syntactic changes: -> Intro adds paragraph refering to related work using bloom filters and why this BIER-TE does not use them. -> Changed "Layers" to "Components in architecture (2.) Defined "BIER-TE control plane" to be inclusive of BIER-TE controller host. -> Reference to bier-multicast-http-response as example for 2.2.3 BIER-TE per-flow state management. -> Added note about DNR to forwarding layer text (2.3) -> Suggest to remove section 3.4 (example) - since -03, better?! example in 1.1 should be sufficient -> Expand explanations of ECMP in 4.7: State that this doc does not specify a standard, but gives an example. Then refined the explanatory text to use two seeds (seed1, seed2) to show how the seed overcomes the polarization. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 07:16:38AM -0700, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. > > Title : Traffic Engineering for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER-TE) > Authors : Toerless Eckert > Gregory Cauchie > Michael Menth > Filename : draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04.txt > Pages : 40 > Date : 2019-10-23 > > Abstract: > This memo introduces per-packet stateless strict and loose path > engineered replication and forwarding for Bit Index Explicit > Replication packets ([RFC8279]). This is called BIER-TE. > > BIER-TE leverages the BIER architecture ([RFC8279]) and extends it > with a new semantic for bits in the bitstring. BIER-TE can leverage > BIER forwarding engines with little or no changes. > > In BIER, the BitPositions (BP) of the packets bitstring indicate BIER > Forwarding Egress Routers (BFER), and hop-by-hop forwarding uses a > Routing Underlay such as an IGP. > > In BIER-TE, BitPositions indicate adjacencies. The BIFT of each BFR > are only populated with BPs that are adjacent to the BFR in the BIER- > TE topology. The BIER-TE topology can consist of layer 2 or remote > (route) adjacencies. The BFR then replicates and forwards BIER > packets to those adjacencies. This results in the aforementioned > strict and loose path forwarding. > > BIER-TE can co-exist with BIER forwarding in the same domain, for > example by using separate sub-domains. In the absence of routed > adjacencies, BIER-TE does not require a BIER routing underlay, and > can then be operated without requiring an IGP routing protocol. > > BIER-TE operates without explicit in-network tree-building and > carries the multicast distribution tree in the packet header. It can > therefore be a good fit to support multicast path steering in Segment > Routing (SR) networks. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Oct 23 08:10:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 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DQo+IA0KPiBEaXJrDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu Oct 24 08:24:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951F712091F; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 08:24:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.684 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.684 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uiAVxpd_jeO2; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 08:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9EB31208DC; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F03B5483C1; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:24:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 8B488440015; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:24:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:24:01 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Cc@i4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de:"bier@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling@ietf.org Message-ID: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 15:24:17 -0000 Some high level comments/questions about this document: It would be good to review/discuss the target scenarios to figure out what text is missing. 1. IMHO, the first answer would be "SSM over a BIER-domain": FHR/LHR run this mechanism with PIM-SSM. transit routers do not need PIM anymore, just BIER. (Great showcase for BIER) Network needs to run a link-state-IGP (ISIS/OSPF), so that without change to the protocols on the wire the IGP on the LHR can calculate the IP address of the FHR, which in turn should be the BFIR IP address. If we agree on this, here are my thoughts about the gaps: - The doc never mentions SSM or PIM-SSM, it should. - It would be nice to mention not only SPF but the fact that a link-state IGP is required and a reminder hat BIER today is only defined to work with link-state protocols anyhow (ISIS/OSPF). - The calculation of FHR (==BFIR) in the IGP on the LHR can likely be done without extensions to the on-the-wire-protocol, but in most enterprise or Data-Center networks, source networks are redundantly attached, and different LHR could calculate different FHR. This would lead to duplicate traffic in the BIER domain, and if one is unlucky, that duplicat traffic could even be duplicate on the same path-segments (based on how the per-hop ECMP works in the IGP). I would suggest to define a simple rule that the SPF calculation MUST by default determine all ECMP FHR towards a router and then pick the one with the lowest router-ID. (would be good to hear an IGP coder chime in whether that calculation of the ECMP FHR is additional work in the existing implementation - as oppose dto just calculate the first FHR). - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two references are already in the doc but not used at all). - The document should make statements about the setting of the entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows. Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few bis sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entropy should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not to overload a single link). E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 might be a good recommendation for the entropy. 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say ASM, but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old Cisco proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work through this solution unless we add a solution to support flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but that term is not used. - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the resulting solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling later. The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As opposed to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be written down. The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we went through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original multicast VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or PORT solve this issue. Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via PORT. The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer to above question. If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirements, aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (there are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). Cheers Toerless On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? > > --- tony > From nobody Thu Oct 24 10:08:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904301200D7 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:08:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0UvFN6v1p3wU for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x536.google.com (mail-ed1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8688812025D for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x536.google.com with SMTP id q24so13241003edr.10 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Q/00Ftg38YyvUcYMYJDkj+WFHIPlcKDkf3FOo1skQMY=; b=1Nw+tXDbW83FMj2JI2zzgXPWi/TDSLyYPzPzzZxkYdmBQ7gkDUhbL7zIRKJsr9TMR4 txHdvAc7JtDvxOkAWJozeTr3AI6iU+y22MnCkBOpUJkcavSr0JLxxnoSwnSukZw0JIex qMaViB4GtFZoea7asSPyTW7Hh/zAH1mCXWKcS6GlAiu2ejNkxU3unfmvuY05ZPLZw4Ub LKRsOJQ644TXxGNJGYWjxr0wMS7/4JV5/pmj/LSlE1dUaUy/Ojy9JR9IfCKjwesxbNmS tcFckW/xLS/rRmPUtw82zTmOPYv6gYjRcCLKqwsmZnUi6JrYcSQPaPp9/x9Ihj2z/0Pv TVjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Q/00Ftg38YyvUcYMYJDkj+WFHIPlcKDkf3FOo1skQMY=; b=bkXqqdAUIhG9qTNAmP7EnsM9bmVYE9yocxQIlBQUB2EPJajEtYbaFGrosWidSnlMCW ahAZ7M/ChQ08X98xwW2/L0jO6LA89nAJ8pPj4x2at32v5THJQBa8ZvD4j1aij0VA0AxI mHFfX0AQH6ZT5GDoB/FgeJe3yCnV1L116wdxcTVSU6tBu7ZRB3AyaJL6IPLzm6AC/+44 8nwhGUjqD8tfzZ7Gq3NRcxT0u7fulX3CSHXb0+KpDJM0eKlHnCGvxeMdVqk1Igt3/NA2 kv3ZICLXLUiqTlY9kuRoEFBfui2Ih3DsDw5exZxTxNq4yO0Q3eI0tZYuDdIVXyI9FHaZ 3WsA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVj/wWMNOnJqd9pTvqiDyy89bfotDHLeoY51y3YuFvoc9VmngyV vfrmLFpVW1lBAAzv6WF12prS2MHMWtV+oHZ9Gh9ryH5xB74= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxrhiRzCGTqdtz7H9bUyJzY0dAtZIhNb9W0EJdX3Tnu04VM3mUkW3v5MI+0nk6zFe9XfNxfvm+ShVCoVu/oeVI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4dce:: with SMTP id f14mr23875687ejw.22.1571936871960; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:07:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stig Venaas Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:07:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert , BIER WG Cc: "Cc@i4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de:bier@ietf.org , " Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:08:03 -0000 Hi A couple of quick comments on your email Toerless. Using PORT may be a good idea. The join attribute defined here would also work with PORT. PIM hellos are not sent over BIER so we have no easy way of finding out whether routers support PORT though. The draft draft-venaas-bier-pfm-sd-00 has a new solution for how to determine whom to join. It would be easy to include capability here to determine whether the router supports PORT etc. Stig From nobody Fri Oct 25 03:32:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1173112083D; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 03:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7HuQlCn8qFuE; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 03:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 673641200C1; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 03:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1686E548029; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:32:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 0ED9B440015; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:32:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:32:02 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stig Venaas Cc: BIER WG , "Cc@i4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de:bier@ietf.org , " Message-ID: <20191025103202.GB24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:32:11 -0000 Thanks, Stig, that what i was suggesting for enabling ASM without getting into any of the PIM-SM complexities. How would we automatically determine the set of all BFR/PIM routers automatically ? I'd hate to have solutions that only work with an SDN controller provisioning consistently many parameters if we can also (hopefully easily) automate it. Also, it would be nice if we could not only have a single PIM domain connect via a BIER domain, so that we could also use this for slices or DC environments where there could easily be multiple instances. The most logical solution for that seems (to me) to be an IGP extension that tags onto the existing BIER IGP extensions and attaches to the BFR extension the information: -> This BFR is member in the XXX PIM/BIER domain with label YYY Then the data packets could use the same forwarding plane encap as in BIER/VPN, aka: combination of BFR-ID and YYY identifies an IP Multicast packet for domain XXX. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 10:07:41AM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: > Hi > > A couple of quick comments on your email Toerless. > > Using PORT may be a good idea. The join attribute defined here would > also work with PORT. PIM hellos are not sent over BIER so we have no > easy way of finding out whether routers support PORT though. > > The draft draft-venaas-bier-pfm-sd-00 has a new solution for how to > determine whom to join. It would be easy to include capability here to > determine whether the router supports PORT etc. > > Stig > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Oct 25 14:21:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AD1120ABE; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:12:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: bier@ietf.org, aretana.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157203793835.2724.3402182819223287292.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:12:18 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] bier - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 21:18:42 -0000 Dear Greg Shepherd, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. bier Session 1 (2:00 requested) Thursday, 21 November 2019, Morning Session I 1000-1200 Room Name: Orchard size: 50 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/sessions/bier.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Greg Shepherd Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 30 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: mpls pim lsr mboned roll spring People who must be present: Tony Przygienda Greg Shepherd Alvaro Retana Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sun Oct 27 19:07:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com 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bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F7212095C for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:24:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yknywQDib61y for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAFFA120960 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0170548005; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:24:33 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id BBD0D440015; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:24:33 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:24:33 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Cc: "gjshep@gmail.com" , Xiejingrong , BIER WG , Mike McBride , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Message-ID: <20191028172433.GD24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20190604000302.xccdl5jknh7ols23@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20190709153828.nplogcxymui5anmq@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB8F2F86@nkgeml514-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:24:45 -0000 Thanks a lot, Jeffrey, inline Will wait for the end of the week and the push -05. For the time being, fixes from your input on github, diff here: http://tools.ietf.org//rfcdiff?url1=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-04.txt&url2=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/toerless/bier-te-arch/master/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-05.txt cheers Toerless On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 02:05:49AM +0000, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > Hi Toerless, > > Some questions and comments up to before section 7. I???ll continue to review but it???ll take more time. > > 4.2. BFER > > Every BFER is given a unique BitPosition with a local_decap > adjacency. > Do you mean every *non-leaf* BFER? Yes, fixed. ----- > 4.3. Leaf BFERs > > Leaf BFERs are BFERs where incoming BIER-TE packets never need to be > forwarded to another BFR but are only sent to the BFER to exit the > BIER-TE domain. For example, in networks where PEs are spokes > connected to P routers, those PEs are Leaf BFIRs unless there is a > U-turn between two PEs. > > Understand the Leaf BFER definition, but the ???U-turn??? example is hard to picture. Might as well just remove the example. I Thought u-turn is the most simple comparison leaf vs. non-leaf BFR. I have now added picture and text to help visualization. Here:
... Consider how redundant disjoint traffic can reach BFER1/BFER2 in above picture: When BFER1/BFER2 are Non-Leaf BFER as shown on the right hand side, one traffic copy would be forwarded to BFER1 from BFR1, but the other one could only reach BFER1 via BFER2, which makes BFER2 a non-Leaf BFER, and vice-vera BFER1 also a non-Leaf BFER. ----- > In a setup with a hub and multiple spokes connected via separate p2p > links to the hub, all p2p links can share the same BitPosition. The > BitPosition on the hubs BIFT is set up with a list of > forward_connected adjacencies, one for each Spoke. > > Using the BP for the p2p links with a list of forward_connected adjacencies means packets will be sent to all spokes. Unlike the LAN case where BW may not be a concern, the hub-and-spoke connection may have BW concern; or at least it should be pointed out? How about instead this paragraph outlining a useful application: This type of optimized BP could be used for example when all traffic is "broadcast" traffic such as live-TV or situation-awareness (SA). This BP optimization can then be used to explicitly steer different traffic flows across different ECMP paths in Data-Center or broadband-aggregation networks. > Section 4.7 started with BP assignment to a link bundle between BFR1 and BFR2. That???s easy to understand. Right. Most simple topology example for ECMP. > but subsequent polarization example confuses me. It seems that BP 0:6 is assigned to the routed adjacency BFR10 (which is actually talked about in Section 4.8). Section 4.7 does not mention "routed" at all, so there are no routed adjacencies at all used in 4.7. So i am not sure what you are confused about. The whole purpose of the ECMP BPs is of course to save bits, otherwise we'd give each link a separate BP, which would be 6 BP to reach to BFR4...BFR7 from BFR1. > Since tunneling is used, ECMP (and polarization) is just an underlay issue. Anyway, it???s better to discuss polarization in section 4.8. As saif above, 4.7 is not about the underlay, but explicit ECMP in BIER-TE. Let me know if you can think of any specific text to help better avoid that confusion. I thought it is clear from the text. > 4.8. Routed adjacencies > > If I understand it correctly, there is a BP assigned to L1/L2/L3 respectively (p2p link), > and then there are BPs assigned to MP2P tunnels (routed adjacency from every BFR) to the L1/L2/L3 interface addresses and loopback addresses on BFR2/3. Ok that wasn't quite the read i expected. Let me clarify the text/picture: ............... ...BFR1--... ...--L1-- BFR2... ... .Routers. ...--L2--/ ...BFR4--... ...------ BFR3... ............... | LO Network Area 1 Assume the requirement in the above picture is to explicitly steer traffic flows that have arrived at BFR1 or BFR4 via a shortest path in the routing underlay "network area 1" to one of the following three next segments: (1) BFR2 via link L1, (2) BFR2 via link L2, (3) via BFR3. To achieve this, both BFR1 and BFR4 are set up with a forward_routed adjacency BitPosition towards an address of BFR2 on link L1, another forward_routed BitPosition towards an address of BFR2 on link L2 and a third forward_routed Bitposition towards a node address LO of BFR3. Does this clear ip the confusion ? > If BFR2/3 are also BFERs, then they additionally will have BFER BPs. > On BFR1/4, the BIFT entries for the MP2P BPs for the L1/L2/L3/loopback interface addresses of BFR2/3 will use forward_routed(interface/loopback address). For a packet to be decapsulated on a BFER, there is a need for both the BFER BP and another BP (p2p/lan/hub-spoke/routed-adjacency) in the packet (the former is for decapsulation and the latter is for getting it there). This is not discussed in this section, but you are right - unless BFR2 or BFR3 is a leaf BFR. In that case, it would just leverage the one shared "leaf-BFR" BP, so they do not need a per-BFER BP for local_decap(). > If that???s the case, it???s worth point the above out. Hmm... The logic of BFER BPs is totally independent of the logic of forward_routed adjacency, so i would worry that repeating the explanation of BFER BPs would conflate the forward_routed explanation. > Would it be better to fold sub-section 4.8.2 into section 3.2.2? I don't think so. Section 3. is about the behavior of the BIFT, without trying to understand why and how to create those BIFT entries. Section 4. is about the controllers (or operators) logic figuring out what BPs are needed depending on topology and required BIER-TE traffic engineering policies and how BPs can be saved. > Actually, the reason that I thought this is MP2P is that 0:6 is present on R1, R2, and R3 (and more I assume) in Figure 12, but now I think it can???t be MP2P (so it is not correct to have 0:6 present on those routers ??? only the p2p tunnel head/tail should have the BP present in the BIFT). The reason is that if it were MP2P, any router getting a copy will send it to the endpoint of the routed adjacency, causing lots of duplicates. > > Am I getting this correct? I think you are still explaining from the misunderstsanding that the ECMP explanations where about routed adjacencies. I have now expanded the somewhat terse text in the BIFT table pictures, to make it clear that the ECMP is across multipe forward_connected adjacencies in the examples. For example, first BIFT picture: BIFT entry in BFR1: ------------------------------------------------------------------ | Index | Adjacencies | ================================================================== | 0:6 | ECMP({forward_connected(L1, BFR2), | | | forward_connected(L2, BFR2), | | | forward_connected(L3, BFR2)}, seed) | ------------------------------------------------------------------ Of course, an ECMP adjacency can be across any type of adjacencies, but all the text/explanations used forward_connected, and now the pictures show that explicitly. > To inhibit looping in the face of such physical misconfiguration, > only forward_connected adjacencies are permitted to have DNR set, and > the link layer destination address of the adjacency (e.g. MAC > address) protects against closing the loop. Link layers without port > unique link layer addresses should not be used with the DNR flag set. > > It???s not clear how link layer address helps? I have expanded this to "link layer port unique unicast destination address" Aka: MPLS or ethernet have unique link layer destination destination addresses (label or destination MAC). If you think about incorrectly plugged HDLC links (such as old T1/T3/... links), they only have 2 generic addresses, if i remember 1 or 3 in the HDLC frame. So when you misplug one of those p2p cables wrong, the packets would be incrrectly received by the wrong receiver node and then DNR could cause persistent loops only solved by TTL. > void ForwardBitMaskPacket_withTE (Packet) > { > SI=GetPacketSI(Packet); > Offset=SI*BitStringLength; > for (Index = GetFirstBitPosition(Packet->BitString); Index ; > Index = GetNextBitPosition(Packet->BitString, Index)) { > F-BM = BIFT[Index+Offset]->F-BM; > if (!F-BM) continue; > BFR-NBR = BIFT[Index+Offset]->BFR-NBR; > PacketCopy = Copy(Packet); > PacketCopy->BitString &= F-BM; [2] > PacketSend(PacketCopy, BFR-NBR); > // The following must not be done for BIER-TE: > // Packet->BitString &= ~F-BM; [1] > } > } > > Because the forwarding is different from BIER forwarding (because of [1] above), we might as well introduce an optimization here ??? for each BIFT, calculate the F-BM of the BIFT itself (the logical ???or??? of all the BPs presented in this BIFT) and then use (packet->bitstring & BIFT.F-BM) as the input to GetFirst/NextBitPosition(). That should skip many bits. Right. But i explicitly removed those optimizations (i had them in older draft versions) because the whole idea of this picture is solely the comparison with figure 4 of RFC8279. > Eliminating the need to perform [1] also makes processing of bits in > the BIER-TE bitstring independent of processing other bits, which may > also simplify forwarding plane implementations. > Don???t see how it simplifies forwarding plane implementation; The way i figure (and i may not have thought up all BIER optimizations), [1] does create more sequentialization or higher complexity to overcome it. With BIER-TE i can pre-calculate a mask of BR relevant for an egres linecard and only look at those bits, and this mask does not need to include bits that would have caused copied to interfaces on other linecards. > is the last cause (???which may ??????) meant to say it leads to deterministic forwarding behavior???? As in deterministic RFC8279 ECMP, yes. But i would prefer not to reuse that word. Too overloaded (see DetNet WG). "Independent BP processing" would be a better explanatory term, but i was trying to avoid creating too much new terminology. > The following pseudocode is comprehensive: > > The above sentence reads a bit strange (or lacks some segue). I hope not, but maybe best left to a native english speaker (RFC-editor). The first (RFC8279) pseudocode was simplified. The second one is comprehensive. If not comprehensive, whats a good opposite of simplified ? > For BIER and BIER-TE forwarding, the most important result of using > multiple SI and/or subdomains is the same: Packets that need to be > sent to BFER in different SI or subdomains require different BIER > packets: each one with a bitstring for a different (SI,subdomain) > bitstring. > > Should the last ???bitstring??? be ???combination???? Yes. thanks. > Some editorial nits: > > Forwarding of BIER-TE is designed to allow common forwarding hardware > with BIER. In fact, one of the main goals of this document is to > encourage the building of forwarding hardware that cannot only > support BIER, but also BIER-TE - to allow experimentation with BIER- > TE and support building of BIER-TE control plane code. > > Should ???cannot only??? be ???can not only???? thanks. > Additionally, curious why you say ???controller host??? ??? typically people just say ???controller???. Yes, the joke is getting old now. Will simplify term. > This optimization does not work in the face of BFRs redundantly > connected to more than one LANs with this optimization because these > BFRs would receive duplicates and forward those duplicates into the > opposite LANs. Adjacencies of such BFRs into their LANs still need a > separate BitPosition. > > s/face/case/? Ack. > In a setup with a hub and multiple spokes connected via separate p2p > links to the hub, all p2p links can share the same BitPosition. The > BitPosition on the hubs BIFT is set up with a list of > forward_connected adjacencies, one for each Spoke. > > s/hubs/hub's/? Ack. Thanks a lot. Cheers toerless > > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > > ________________________________________ > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert [tte@cs.fau.de] > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 23:38 > To: Mike McBride > Cc: Greg Shepherd; BIER WG; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch > > Thanks, Mike > > The authors also reviewed the document and concluded that it was really > hard to get into the document context because of too many forward > dependencies. We tried to fix this by adding two hopefully good & basic > examples into the Introduction section and using them to also add > a better definition of the term "BIER-TE Topology" in the Introduction. > Hopefully this makes readin the rest of te document smoother. > > Also improved text of Abstract and refined text compariing BIER-TE with SR. > > http://tools.ietf.org//rfcdiff?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-02.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03.txt > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:39:36AM -0700, Mike McBride wrote: > > How about three? I support. > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:42 AM Greg Shepherd > wrote: > > > > > > We cannot take two 'yes' votes and WG consensus. > > > Please, read and respond. If you don't support, then please vote as much publicly right here. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Greg > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > >> > > >> Support: > > >> > > >> I see great value in deterministic networks as well as IOT (with RPL). > > >> > > >> All the best, > > >> > > >> Pascal > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: BIER > On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert > > >> > Sent: mardi 4 juin 2019 02:03 > > >> > To: Greg Shepherd > > > >> > Cc: BIER WG > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch > > >> > > > >> > +1 > > >> > Obviously support as co-author. > > >> > > > >> > On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:41:26PM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > > >> > > Please read and respond to this thread w/ or w/o support. > > >> > > > > >> > > https://datatracker..ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/ > > >> > > > > >> > > Vote ends 5 June 2019. > > >> > > > > >> > > Thanks, > > >> > > Shep > > >> > > (chairs) > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > BIER mailing list > > >> > > BIER@ietf.org > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > BIER mailing list > > >> > BIER@ietf.org > > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Oct 28 10:24:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A96812095D for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:24:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdNKMdFYABv7 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 918EE120906 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A16548026; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:24:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 5454D440015; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:24:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:24:50 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Dirk Trossen Cc: "bier@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191028172450.GA64062@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20191023143152.GA22509@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:24:57 -0000 On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:10:16PM +0000, Dirk Trossen wrote: > > [DOT] Note that the ICC paper talks about utilizing simple bitpositions to avoid false positive altogether - in fact, in our utilization of this solution, we've never used BF for that reason and stuck with the bitposition, aligning this solution pretty much with the BIER-TE one - which is one of the reasons for us to look at BIER(-TE) as another possible transport mechanism. So maybe adding a sentence like "Both approaches foresee the use of unique bitpositions per link to avoid said false positive and loop avoidance issues, bringing the approaches more in line with the proposed BIER-TE solution."? Haha. Now i see. So basically one uses one bloom filter 1 hash function L(e) = (1< 2^e-max, and e voila, BIER-TE can be called a Bloom Filter solution, and thats what the ICC paper describes. So, how about this rewrite of the paragraph (for rev -05): Note that related work, uses bloom filters to represent leaves or edges of the intended delivery tree. Bloom filters in general can support larger trees/topologies with fewer addressing bits than explicit bitstrings, but they introduce the heuristic risk of false positives and cannot reset bits in the bitstring during forwarding to avoid loops. For these reasons, BIER-TE uses explicit bitstrings like BIER. The explicit bitstrings of BIER-TE can also be seen as a special type of bloom filter, and this is how related work describes it. > > * Section 8 compares SR and BIER-TE, which I like seeing in the draft. I would argue that the possibility for creating opportunistic multicast relations (through a simple binary OR of unicast relations) is a significant advantage over SR. Here, a possible link to the 'HTTP multicast overlay' draft (see link above) might be useful, which makes use of this capability. > > Added at end of section: > > Both BIER and BIER-TE allow BFIR to "opportunistically" copy packets to a set of desired BFER on a packet-by-packet basis. In BIER, this is done by or'ing the BP for the desired BFER. In BIER-TE this can be done by or'ing for each desired BFER a bitstring using the "independent branches" approach described in and therefore also indicating the engineered path towards each desired BFER. This is the approach that relies on. > > [DOT] Could also add the multicast response draft here for completeness. Yepp. had already fixed that -> s/roll-ccast/multicast-http/ > > 3. Nitpicks: > > * P4p1l1: "adjacencies" change to "adjacencies" > > * P5p1l2: "6 BFR..." to "6 BFRs..." (with my working assumptions that an acronym is singular) > > * P5p1l2: "All BFR..." change to "All BFRs..." > > * P6p1l4: "...BFR1 to to send..." change to "...BFR1 to send..." > > * P6p3l3: "...in the prior casse." change to "...in the prior case." > > * P7p3l1: "...consists of the BIFT of all the the" change to "...consists of the BIFT of all the" > > * P9p3l1: "During 'bring-up..." change to "During set-up..." or "During initial configuration..." > > * P13p2l4: "The can be used" change to "They can be used" > > * P13p6l1: "...to the BIER BIFT and are are" change to "...to the BIER BIFT and are" > > * P17p2l6: "This Basic BIER-TE requirements make..." change to "These basic BIER-TE requirements make..." > > * P21p1l3: "example is not mean as a likely setup" change to "example is not meant as a likely setup" > > * P29p1l1: "which lead to" change to "which leads to" > > * P30p6l1: "For non-leaf BFER, ..." change to "For a non-leaf BFER, ...." > > * P30p7l1: "As explained earlier in the document, leaf BFER do..." change to "As explained earlier in the document, leaf BFERs do..." > > Thank you so much. Thanks for the detailled review and recommendations. Cheers Toerless > > > I hope this is useful. > > Very much so. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > Best, > > > > Dirk > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Oct 28 12:53:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1CC912006D for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:53:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6vB_48psZeCh for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B27D312004E for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 310a5fb0-37e4-4ae8-26e9-08d75be06f34 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Oct 2019 19:52:59.1336 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: yXe31VH0QwfB1IxdOig+wjQpwfmjTwFwAn8/LsfNWV7uLS0SIwYPBOnvJpYdxfrTwW8wgqrbnfQnc5JiN3EACg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR05MB3354 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-10-28_07:2019-10-28,2019-10-28 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1910280188 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 19:53:24 -0000 Hi Toerless, Please see zzh> below. > 4.3. Leaf BFERs >=20 > Leaf BFERs are BFERs where incoming BIER-TE packets never need to be > forwarded to another BFR but are only sent to the BFER to exit the > BIER-TE domain. For example, in networks where PEs are spokes > connected to P routers, those PEs are Leaf BFIRs unless there is a > U-turn between two PEs. >=20 > Understand the Leaf BFER definition, but the ???U-turn??? example is hard= to picture. Might as well just remove the example. I Thought u-turn is the most simple comparison leaf vs. non-leaf BFR. Zzh> The text in the email is seriously misaligned. Looking at the picture = in the diff link, while you gave a U-turn example, though even if BFER2 is = not connected to BFR2 but only connected to BFER1 (hence no U-turn), then = BFER1 is still not a leaf BFER I suppose. That's why I said the first sente= nce of the above paragraph is enough to define Leaf BFER while the example = itself is actually not needed. Zzh> Additionally, in left part of the picture you added, if some failure l= eads to BFR2 to be only reachable via BFER1, then BFER1 is no longer a leaf= BFER. I assume you don't reassign BPs when links go up and down. > but subsequent polarization example confuses me. It seems that BP 0:6 is = assigned to the routed adjacency BFR10 (which is actually talked about in S= ection 4.8). Section 4.7 does not mention "routed" at all, so there are no routed adjace= ncies at all used in 4.7. So i am not sure what you are confused about. Zzh> "The BIFT of each BFR are only populated with BPs that are adjacent to= the BFR in the BIER-TE topology". Since the same 0:6 is in BIFTS of BFR1/B= FR2/BFR3 (and I suppose in BFR4~BFR9 as well even though not drawn), I assu= med it's for the "MP2P" routed adjacency to R10; though I then ruled that o= ut - but I don't know what 0:6 represent now on BFR1, BFR2, and BFR3. The whole purpose of the ECMP BPs is of course to save bits, otherwise we'd= give each link a separate BP, which would be 6 BP to reach to BFR4...BFR7 = from BFR1.=20 Zzh> The trouble I am having is that the same 0:6 is assigned to different = things and it's present on all BFR1/BFR2/BFR3. It is perhaps an intentional= smart design but I have not wrapped my mind around it. It's apparently dif= ferent from the link bundle case, so better separate it out and elaborate i= t (including the DNR flag that might be needed here - If the packet arrives= on BFR1 with 0:6, would the BP reset when it is sent to BFR2/3)? > 4.8. Routed adjacencies >=20 > If I understand it correctly, there is a BP assigned to L1/L2/L3=20 > respectively (p2p link), and then there are BPs assigned to MP2P tunnels = (routed adjacency from every BFR) to the L1/L2/L3 interface addresses and l= oopback addresses on BFR2/3. Ok that wasn't quite the read i expected. Let me clarify the text/picture: ............... =20 ...BFR1--... ...--L1-- BFR2... ... .Routers. ...--L2--/ =20 ...BFR4--... ...------ BFR3... ............... | LO Network Area 1 Assume the requirement in the above picture is to explicitly steer traffic = flows that have arrived at BFR1 or BFR4 via a shortest path in the routing = underlay "network area 1" to one of the following three next segments: (1) = BFR2 via link L1, (2) BFR2 via link L2, (3) via BFR3. To achieve this, both BFR1 and BFR4 are set up with a forward_routed adjace= ncy BitPosition towards an address of BFR2 on link L1, another forward_rout= ed BitPosition towards an address of BFR2 on link L2 and a third forward_ro= uted Bitposition towards a node address LO of BFR3. Does this clear ip the confusion ? Zzh> The picture is badly misaligned. I'll wait till 4.7 questions are clea= red. > If BFR2/3 are also BFERs, then they additionally will have BFER BPs. > On BFR1/4, the BIFT entries for the MP2P BPs for the L1/L2/L3/loopback in= terface addresses of BFR2/3 will use forward_routed(interface/loopback addr= ess). For a packet to be decapsulated on a BFER, there is a need for both t= he BFER BP and another BP (p2p/lan/hub-spoke/routed-adjacency) in the packe= t (the former is for decapsulation and the latter is for getting it there). This is not discussed in this section, but you are right - unless BFR2 or BFR3 is a leaf BFR. In that case, it would just leverage the one sh= ared "leaf-BFR" BP, so they do not need a per-BFER BP for local_decap().=20 Zzh> Right - shared leaf-BFR BP but still need that BP (the key is that we = need a BP to get packet to a BFER and then a BP for decapsulation). > If that???s the case, it???s worth point the above out. Hmm... The logic of BFER BPs is totally independent of the logic of forward= _routed adjacency, so i would worry that repeating the explanation of BFER = BPs would conflate the forward_routed explanation. Zzh> It's just that this is a place where all kinds of BPs are used so it's= good to have a summary (could be a subsection 4.9). > Actually, the reason that I thought this is MP2P is that 0:6 is present o= n R1, R2, and R3 (and more I assume) in Figure 12, but now I think it can??= ?t be MP2P (so it is not correct to have 0:6 present on those routers ??? o= nly the p2p tunnel head/tail should have the BP present in the BIFT). The r= eason is that if it were MP2P, any router getting a copy will send it to th= e endpoint of the routed adjacency, causing lots of duplicates. >=20 > Am I getting this correct? I think you are still explaining from the misunderstsanding that the ECMP e= xplanations where about routed adjacencies. I have now expanded the somewhat terse text in the BIFT table pictures, to = make it clear that the ECMP is across multipe forward_connected adjacencies= in the examples. For example, first BIFT picture: BIFT entry in BFR1: ------------------------------------------------------------------ | Index | Adjacencies | =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 0:6 | ECMP({forward_connected(L1, BFR2), | | | forward_connected(L2, BFR2), | | | forward_connected(L3, BFR2)}, seed) | ------------------------------------------------------------------ Of course, an ECMP adjacency can be across any type of adjacencies, but all= the text/explanations used forward_connected, and now the pictures show th= at explicitly. Zzh> I can understand the multi-link case, but the multi-hop ECMP case (fro= m BFR1 towards BFR10) is confusing me. It would help to give an example how= it can be used, WITHOUT worrying about polarization. > To inhibit looping in the face of such physical misconfiguration, > only forward_connected adjacencies are permitted to have DNR set, and > the link layer destination address of the adjacency (e.g. MAC > address) protects against closing the loop. Link layers without port > unique link layer addresses should not be used with the DNR flag set. > > It???s not clear how link layer address helps? I have expanded this to "link layer port unique unicast destination address" Aka: MPLS or ethernet have unique link layer destination destination addres= ses (label or destination MAC). If you think about incorrectly plugged HDLC= links (such as old T1/T3/... links), they only have 2 generic addresses, i= f i remember 1 or 3 in the HDLC frame. So when you misplug one of those p2p= cables wrong, the packets would be incrrectly received by the wrong receiv= er node and then DNR could cause persistent loops only solved by TTL. Zzh> "Consider in the ring picture that link L4 from BFR3 is plugged into t= he L1 interface of BFRa" - still not sure how label/mac helps here. I suppo= se the ring topology is discovered/verified by the control plane and when t= he miscalling happens then the ring will not include the BFR1/BFR2 part and= BFR3 will not have the DNR set? If ring discovery/varication is not done t= hen perhaps we should point out that RPF based on link layer address is nee= ded - the key is RPF (which needs unique link layer address)? > Because the forwarding is different from BIER forwarding (because of [1] = above), we might as well introduce an optimization here ??? for each BIFT, = calculate the F-BM of the BIFT itself (the logical ???or??? of all the BPs = presented in this BIFT) and then use (packet->bitstring & BIFT.F-BM) as the= input to GetFirst/NextBitPosition(). That should skip many bits. Right. But i explicitly removed those optimizations (i had them in older dr= aft versions) because the whole idea of this picture is solely the comparis= on with figure 4 of RFC8279. Zzh> I think it's worth point that optimization out; you can mark it option= al if you want to emphasize the similarity to BIER forwarding, but since BI= ER forwarding does do the maskoff step, it is very efficient while BIER-TE = forwarding does not it the maskoff step so this optimization is important. > The following pseudocode is comprehensive: >=20 > The above sentence reads a bit strange (or lacks some segue). I hope not, but maybe best left to a native english speaker (RFC-editor). The first (RFC8279) pseudocode was simplified. The second one is comprehens= ive. If not comprehensive, whats a good opposite of simplified ? Zzh> Perhaps "The above simplified pseudocode is elaborated further as foll= owing"? Zzh> Jeffrey =20 > ________________________________________ > From: BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on=20 > behalf of Toerless Eckert [tte@cs.fau.de] > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 23:38 > To: Mike McBride > Cc: Greg Shepherd; BIER WG; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch >=20 > Thanks, Mike >=20 > The authors also reviewed the document and concluded that it was=20 > really hard to get into the document context because of too many=20 > forward dependencies. We tried to fix this by adding two hopefully=20 > good & basic examples into the Introduction section and using them to=20 > also add a better definition of the term "BIER-TE Topology" in the Introd= uction. > Hopefully this makes readin the rest of te document smoother. >=20 > Also improved text of Abstract and refined text compariing BIER-TE with S= R. >=20 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tools.ietf.org/*rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps: > **Atools.ietf.org*id*draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-02.txt&url2=3Dhttps:**Atool > s.ietf.org*id*draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03.txt__;Ly8vLy8vLy8v!8WoA6RjC81 > c!XvH4AAxfrDjFoK_sercwZMsc0O5N42eENOs4l_qdsXF0KwZD82cJLDFFNV_eTUEh$=20 > **Atools.ietf.org*id*draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-02.txt&url2=3Dhttps:**Atool > s.ietf.org*id*draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-03.txt__;Ly8vLy8vLy8v!8WoA6RjC81 > c!UBTGvWWpMHyeiSanxs6vIb_EnBVgyg6boAAW4nrqju8UCLOgiuXc8Y_6sNd1njcX$> >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 > On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:39:36AM -0700, Mike McBride wrote: > > How about three? I support. > > mike > > > > On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:42 AM Greg Shepherd > wrote: > > > > > > We cannot take two 'yes' votes and WG consensus. > > > Please, read and respond. If you don't support, then please vote as m= uch publicly right here. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Greg > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > >> > > >> Support: > > >> > > >> I see great value in deterministic networks as well as IOT (with RPL= ). > > >> > > >> All the best, > > >> > > >> Pascal > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: BIER=20 > > >> > > On Behalf=20 > > >> > Of Toerless Eckert > > >> > Sent: mardi 4 juin 2019 02:03 > > >> > To: Greg Shepherd > > > >> > Cc: BIER WG > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC - draft-ietf-bier-te-arch > > >> > > > >> > +1 > > >> > Obviously support as co-author. > > >> > > > >> > On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:41:26PM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > > >> > > Please read and respond to this thread w/ or w/o support. > > >> > > > > >> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker..ietf.org/doc > > >> > > /draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/__;!8WoA6RjC81c!XvH4AAxfrDjFoK_sercw > > >> > > ZMsc0O5N42eENOs4l_qdsXF0KwZD82cJLDFFNV9eClBj$=20 > > >> > > > >> > > draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/__;!8WoA6RjC81c!UBTGvWWpMHyeiSanxs6vI > > >> > > b_EnBVgyg6boAAW4nrqju8UCLOgiuXc8Y_6sD40kmtH$> > > >> > > > > >> > > Vote ends 5 June 2019. > > >> > > > > >> > > Thanks, > > >> > > Shep > > >> > > (chairs) > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > BIER mailing list > > >> > > BIER@ietf.org > > >> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list > > >> > > info/bier__;!8WoA6RjC81c!XvH4AAxfrDjFoK_sercwZMsc0O5N42eENOs4 > > >> > > l_qdsXF0KwZD82cJLDFFNT2WVXWX$=20 > > >> > > > >> > > info/bier__;!8WoA6RjC81c!UBTGvWWpMHyeiSanxs6vIb_EnBVgyg6boAAW > > >> > > 4nrqju8UCLOgiuXc8Y_6sKn2KoAT$> > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > BIER mailing list > > >> > BIER@ietf.org > > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin > > >> > fo/bier__;!8WoA6RjC81c!XvH4AAxfrDjFoK_sercwZMsc0O5N42eENOs4l_qd > > >> > sXF0KwZD82cJLDFFNT2WVXWX$=20 > > >> > > >> > fo/bier__;!8WoA6RjC81c!UBTGvWWpMHyeiSanxs6vIb_EnBVgyg6boAAW4nrq > > >> > ju8UCLOgiuXc8Y_6sKn2KoAT$> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ > > > bier__;!8WoA6RjC81c!XvH4AAxfrDjFoK_sercwZMsc0O5N42eENOs4l_qdsXF0Kw > > > ZD82cJLDFFNT2WVXWX$=20 > > > > > bier__;!8WoA6RjC81c!UBTGvWWpMHyeiSanxs6vIb_EnBVgyg6boAAW4nrqju8UCL > > > OgiuXc8Y_6sKn2KoAT$> >=20 > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > __;!8WoA6RjC81c!XvH4AAxfrDjFoK_sercwZMsc0O5N42eENOs4l_qdsXF0KwZD82cJLD > FFNT2WVXWX$=20 > __;!8WoA6RjC81c!UBTGvWWpMHyeiSanxs6vIb_EnBVgyg6boAAW4nrqju8UCLOgiuXc8Y > _6sKn2KoAT$> -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Oct 28 20:27:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e_x1S5lEQLd6 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3AB5120047 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id b18so3094655edr.11 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:35:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EQFUHK9oRbiKI/tkGAUDIEMZFlGw2oDl0tvGrwJqlVA=; 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APjAAAUhTZ/6YRsZkY1AoAM9o/l3QwFJrjqK5wBl+X4mT4Bu2vgDU2CC PzG+0Q5uq1v0ha5LXE3jFqAxcbB7Vs0eh9YFKTDR4Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxtk99K2u4Pr5ZHfE404ZYvZgX3jyqUAApcpPH/GxUlO/Zggd5nmxd0OKUZGxDeBJT8Yo9HaWBHlwLcPBZqd4w= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:694d:: with SMTP id c13mr1072043ejs.223.1572320106932; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:35:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191028080131.GC24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: From: Stig Venaas Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:34:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: Toerless Eckert , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000727a800596044dd9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 03:35:13 -0000 --000000000000727a800596044dd9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope. Stig On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> > > Regards > > Hooman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM > To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - > CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim > joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or > SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this > mechanism. > > HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I can > add a sentence. > > The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document > to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this > should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document > describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. > > If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the > document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the > controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the > document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think > Stig and I would favor/suggest. > > HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should add > the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? > > > HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the > implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of > an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be > forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should > be open. > > HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would > > HB> multihome base on (S,G) > > Then the document should add a statement like this: > (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). > > This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a > single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are > redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one > BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards > different set of BFER. > > HB2> ok I will add the following text. > > If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm > should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to > a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As > an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. > > > > - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID > > for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension > > as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two > > references are already in the doc but not used at all). > > > > HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER boundary > router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP > extensions. > > Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together. > > I guess the idea is something like this: > > HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the EBBR > (aka BFIR) > > 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the > source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate > today. Right ? > > 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from > itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the > BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? > > The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more > than one BFIR because of ECMP: > > a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. > whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then > you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. > > HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling > and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP > algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will > note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the > traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric > EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward. > > Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need > instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). > > To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be > done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by > doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics > swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any > IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its > equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants > to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking > for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too > late. > > Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how > to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type > of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. > > b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER > can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself > has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. > > If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID > combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) > multiple copies of the packet to be sent. > > Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation > choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating > implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated > traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID > combinations. > > Btw: the document says: > > | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't > find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document > will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO > its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding > type" typically. Aka: > IMHO something missing here in definition. > > HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming > PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to > | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > - The document should make statements about the setting of the > > entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows. > > Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few bis > > sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entropy > > should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, > > if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR > > will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should > > flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not > > to overload a single link). > > > > E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 > > might be a good recommendation for the entropy. > > > > HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. It > is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this > should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. > > This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. > I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but > that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution > description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. > > > 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is > > undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say ASM, > > but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. > > > > If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is > > the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information > > comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently > > is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old > Cisco > > proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work > > through this solution unless we add a solution to support > > flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have > > been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but > > that term is not used. > > > > - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the > resulting > > solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover > > signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would > > be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the > > BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. > > > > > > HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working. > > Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to > make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN > controller that can automate configuration. > > > HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make it > just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out > previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune > etc.. > > Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can > potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide > later on an ASM solution. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for > > SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling > > later. > > > > The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use > > BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As opposed > > to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be > > written down. > > > > The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we > > reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling > > for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we went > > through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original > multicast > > VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost > > duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or > PORT > > solve this issue. > > > > Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via > PORT. > > The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer to > > above question. > > > > If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not > > need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even > > though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, > > then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirements, > > aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get > > appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (there > > are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per > request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --000000000000727a800596044dd9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi

While we = all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this solution t= o SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up to vendor= s or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, it works= just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope.

Stig

=

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <<= a href=3D"mailto:hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com">hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>= wrote:
Adding the working group as= well, inline HB2>

Regards

Hooman


-----Original Message-----
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM
To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com<= /a>>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/

On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottaw= a) wrote:
> HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim= joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SS= M or SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this m= echanism.
> HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I = can add a sentence.

The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document = to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this s= hould just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document = describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it.

If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the document= could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the controv= ersy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the document i= s currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think Stig and = I would favor/suggest.

HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should ad= d the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also?

> HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the implement= ation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of an pim jo= in, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be forwarded to. To= us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should be open.
> HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other woul= d
> HB> multihome base on (S,G)

Then the document should add a statement like this:
(using BFR or BBR terminology as you please).

This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a si= ngle BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are redundantly= attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one BFIR forwa= rding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards different s= et of BFER.

HB2> ok I will add the following text.

If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm sh= ould ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to a = single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As an = example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP.


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- It would be helpfull to have a sentence explainin= g that the BFR-ID
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the choosen FHR would be learned from th= e IGP BIER extension
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension d= ocs (the two
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0references are already in the doc but not us= ed at all).
>
> HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER bou= ndary router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP = extensions.

Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together.=

I guess the idea is something like this:

HB2> have you looked at the appendix=C2=A0 A? it explains how to find th= e EBBR (aka BFIR)

1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the sour= ce of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate today= . Right ?

2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from
itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the BFR-ID= to send the join to. Right ?

The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more than= one BFIR because of ECMP:

a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, the= n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0you may end up picking a wrong BFIR.

HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling = and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP al= gorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will note = the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the traf= fic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric EBBR = knows how to forward the packet backward.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would ne= ed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (B= FER).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can= be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by =C2=A0 =C2=A0doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface me= trics
=C2=A0 =C2=A0swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any =C2=A0 =C2=A0IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even thoug= h its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wa= nts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to write as long as there is no big customer business case ask= ing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it i= s too
=C2=A0 =C2=A0late.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with al= l type
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs.

b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER
=C2=A0 =C2=A0can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which it= self
=C2=A0 =C2=A0has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER.<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnec= essary)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0multiple copies of the packet to be sent.

Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation choice= issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating implemen= tations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated traffic wit= h multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID combinations.

Btw: the document says:

| Addr Family:=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC776= 1]
| BIER Info:=C2=A0 =C2=A0IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id

RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google co= uldn't find me another document where this term is used, so i think THI= S document will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and righ= t now IMHO its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an = "encoding type" typically. Aka:
IMHO something missing here in definition.

HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming= PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to | Addr Family:=C2=A0 =C2=A0pim address family as defined in [RFC7761]
| BIER Info:=C2=A0 =C2=A0IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- The document should make statements about the set= ting of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entropy field in the BIER data packets of in= dividual (S,G) flows.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given the problem of using ECMP paths and th= e prevalence of few bis
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sources sending traffic for many SSM channel= s, i think the entropy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be calculated from both S and G (not = only from S). Also,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if there is no complete ECMP in the network,= multiple FHR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will potentially send the same traffic, and = then that should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0flow as much as possible across different pa= ths (so as not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to overload a single link).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id)= % 20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0might be a good recommendation for the entro= py.
>
> HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draf= t. It is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing thi= s should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also.

This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field.
I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, bu= t that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr = our solution description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for op= erators.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term t= hat AFAIK is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 undefined in any standards track RFC. I gue= ss it meant to say ASM,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-P= IM.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i thi= nk there is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the additional dependency of figuring out w= here RP information
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 comes from. Assuming they are manually conf= igured consistently
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains= use either some old Cisco
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of t= hese will work
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 through this solution unless we add a solut= ion to support
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think = that might have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 been the idea of defining the term BFT in t= he document, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that term is not used.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR= , i do not like the resulting
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solution, because we would still require th= e RPT/SPT switchover
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*= ,G) LHR. I would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC83= 64 and just use the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active = messages to all LHR.
>
>
> HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working= .

Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to = make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN = controller that can automate configuration.

> HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and ma= ke it just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out= previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune= etc..

Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can = potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide lat= er on an ASM solution.

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If you ask me, it would be good enough to f= inalize the doc for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)= -active-signaling
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 later.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The other high level question is: What are the good reaso= ns to use
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ?= As opposed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they shou= ld be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 written down.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould w= e
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram si= gnaling
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path),= when we went
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: O= riginal multicast
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packe= ts got lost
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.= ). BGP or PORT
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 solve this issue.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling shou= ld be via PORT.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on th= e answer to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 above question.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking w= e do not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solut= ion even
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 though we've recognized that need long time ago in pr= ior solutions,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 then please write at least a section about the DiffServ r= equirements,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets= for join/prune get
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap hea= ders (there
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP).
>
> Cheers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>
> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote:
> > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim= -signaling/ per request and consensus @ IETF 102 ???
> >
> > --- tony
> >

--
---
tte@c= s.fau.de
_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= br>
--000000000000727a800596044dd9-- From nobody Mon Oct 28 20:51:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9400C12008F for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:51:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id noLiENuaa3eZ for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42f.google.com (mail-pf1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07AE212008C for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id c7so7344639pfo.12 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:51:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8kqe8dUFKHsJwMTj2OtfSOZeSqUVrUc3rpSeteXRRnQ=; b=OV47ebgLHaVze02RFBpd0XDnEYgyeYu/WECASYp56TEtoHmwcktVNRLSgaN8rsti1x PHHlkhb6FHyFlX8A9wI3RnEyYfz9uYI0x/2D0tjMHyaYNS34Vd+UBfl4AVINfiP+h287 7cBGP4FCjQypn3EnqIiSamw5OWOOHBmDUSJo5Jq+f6G4ymBrP2YArnWCMPOEteXm4bl0 TFt/KdF5F+Iq61/koYs+JG3LC2e5aiQhu0t+p8NvZRKaB2zHx9Ozt58DmVzM6MqWgHE7 Us51Vy/SZsvvQ9V/h7qs5w7aGiNLIncYgtfBCq3hOdDwfMGisCTMnPZ8zAjl3tnY91f/ ctow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8kqe8dUFKHsJwMTj2OtfSOZeSqUVrUc3rpSeteXRRnQ=; b=Cwb38SsTXUUc9JtqnMVN7pc/2LSt9pjvqspAYxO6iqAQDLM3P6sKow6KxhNxN11CuA /5dx8N70k7sBPd5mVEwWSBFnvtmoBmEHO/9AtMgCDS360r591GMtonhnUW8pZoE612mv SKthK2NECP24pYuVJBhe2bFH4dUI68FxNon2XM441HCrUTU5KqAdJZRJANaj9L1Bij+N Ema4bj/Zgu1UeI3/hN6Uu5jro2k1+3BKVQshmdJj3HfFSH+Py/xgAb88EM88Glxlo5dp kTg4X5uzFrUtUsbQEXOgww9OteCIg61CXy0O6OLcuwgGi+CyLDHRCNsvDTji/ZYR5brv r2+w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU9jiS4znKxUY70NHjCFTjNr7xL15ZV1K9BlJTSupjwQMHkwHGz FNxYGnlJSAR0jS05w2b/65wZduB5ZhtBEi1XMS0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwg3eaERdN1CeYt6iR/ISS3K/Z8uaN3iRkoNeU83Kw7CXwhU/G5lVt9jp6h4W+hMnmwOphB4bQ2jUeyna03UdQ= X-Received: by 2002:a63:cf4d:: with SMTP id b13mr24189130pgj.396.1572321081862; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:51:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191028080131.GC24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 23:51:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: Stig Venaas Cc: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , bier@ietf.org, Toerless Eckert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008eae4305960487e4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 03:51:28 -0000 --0000000000008eae4305960487e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Watching this interesting thread from the side I would like to second what Stig just said. In many enterprise deployments all sources are receivers and vice versa hence support of ASM makes a lot of sense here. Kind regards, Robert. On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 23:35 Stig Venaas wrote: > Hi > > While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this > solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up > to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, > it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope. > > Stig > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > >> Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> >> >> Regards >> >> Hooman >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Toerless Eckert >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM >> To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) >> Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ >> >> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - >> CA/Ottawa) wrote: >> > HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim >> joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or >> SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this >> mechanism. >> > HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I can >> add a sentence. >> >> The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone >> document to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or >> if this should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another >> document describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. >> >> If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the >> document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the >> controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the >> document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think >> Stig and I would favor/suggest. >> >> HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should add >> the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? >> >> > HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the >> implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of >> an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be >> forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should >> be open. >> > HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would >> > HB> multihome base on (S,G) >> >> Then the document should add a statement like this: >> (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). >> >> This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a >> single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are >> redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one >> BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards >> different set of BFER. >> >> HB2> ok I will add the following text. >> >> If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm >> should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to >> a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As >> an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. >> >> >> > - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID >> > for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension >> > as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two >> > references are already in the doc but not used at all). >> > >> > HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER >> boundary router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the >> IGP/BGP extensions. >> >> Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things >> together. >> >> I guess the idea is something like this: >> >> HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the EBBR >> (aka BFIR) >> >> 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the >> source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate >> today.. Right ? >> >> 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from >> itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the >> BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? >> >> The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more >> than one BFIR because of ECMP: >> >> a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. >> whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then >> you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. >> >> HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling >> and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP >> algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will >> note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the >> traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric >> EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward. >> >> Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need >> instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). >> >> To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be >> done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by >> doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics >> swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any >> IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its >> equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants >> to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking >> for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too >> late. >> >> Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how >> to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type >> of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. >> >> b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER >> can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself >> has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. >> >> If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID >> combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) >> multiple copies of the packet to be sent. >> >> Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation >> choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating >> implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated >> traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID >> combinations. >> >> Btw: the document says: >> >> | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] >> | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id >> >> RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't >> find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document >> will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO >> its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding >> type" typically. Aka: >> IMHO something missing here in definition. >> >> HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming >> PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to >> | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] >> | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id >> >> > - The document should make statements about the setting of the >> > entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows. >> > Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few >> bis >> > sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entropy >> > should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, >> > if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR >> > will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should >> > flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not >> > to overload a single link). >> > >> > E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 >> > might be a good recommendation for the entropy. >> > >> > HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. >> It is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this >> should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. >> >> This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. >> I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but >> that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution >> description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. >> >> > 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is >> > undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say >> ASM, >> > but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. >> > >> > If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is >> > the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information >> > comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently >> > is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old >> Cisco >> > proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work >> > through this solution unless we add a solution to support >> > flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have >> > been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but >> > that term is not used. >> > >> > - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the >> resulting >> > solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover >> > signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would >> > be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the >> > BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. >> > >> > >> > HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working.. >> >> Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able >> to make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an >> SDN controller that can automate configuration. >> >> > HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make >> it just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out >> previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune >> etc.. >> >> Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines >> can potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide >> later on an ASM solution. >> >> Cheers >> Toerless >> >> > If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for >> > SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling >> > later. >> > >> > The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use >> > BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As opposed >> > to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be >> > written down. >> > >> > The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we >> > reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling >> > for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we >> went >> > through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original >> multicast >> > VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost >> > duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or >> PORT >> > solve this issue. >> > >> > Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via >> PORT. >> > The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer to >> > above question. >> > >> > If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not >> > need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even >> > though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, >> > then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirements, >> > aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get >> > appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (there >> > are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). >> > >> > Cheers >> > Toerless >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: >> > > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per >> request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? >> > > >> > > --- tony >> > > >> >> -- >> --- >> tte@cs.fau.de >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --0000000000008eae4305960487e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Watching this interesting thread from the side I would li= ke to second what Stig just said.

In many enterprise deployments all sources are receivers and vice versa= hence support of ASM makes a lot of sense here.
Kind regards,
Robert.
=



On Mon, Oct 28, 201= 9, 23:35 Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com= > wrote:
H= i

While we all know SSM simpli= fies things, I see no reason to restrict this solution to SSM. Whether to i= mplement or deploy only the SSM solution is up to vendors or operators, but= I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, it works just fine with sta= tic RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope.

=
Stig


On Mon, Oct 2= 8, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli= @nokia.com> wrote:
Adding t= he working group as well, inline HB2>

Regards

Hooman


-----Original Message-----
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM
To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli= @nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signalin= g/

On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottaw= a) wrote:
> HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim= joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SS= M or SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this m= echanism.
> HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I = can add a sentence.

The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document = to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this s= hould just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document = describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it.

If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the document= could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the controv= ersy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the document i= s currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think Stig and = I would favor/suggest.

HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should ad= d the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also?

> HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the implement= ation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of an pim jo= in, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be forwarded to. To= us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should be open.
> HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other woul= d
> HB> multihome base on (S,G)

Then the document should add a statement like this:
(using BFR or BBR terminology as you please).

This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a si= ngle BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are redundantly= attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one BFIR forwa= rding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards different s= et of BFER.

HB2> ok I will add the following text.

If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm sh= ould ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to a = single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As an = example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP.


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- It would be helpfull to have a sentence explainin= g that the BFR-ID
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the choosen FHR would be learned from th= e IGP BIER extension
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension d= ocs (the two
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0references are already in the doc but not us= ed at all).
>
> HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER bou= ndary router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP = extensions.

Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together.=

I guess the idea is something like this:

HB2> have you looked at the appendix=C2=A0 A? it explains how to find th= e EBBR (aka BFIR)

1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the sour= ce of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate today= .. Right ?

2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from
itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the BFR-ID= to send the join to. Right ?

The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more than= one BFIR because of ECMP:

a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, the= n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0you may end up picking a wrong BFIR.

HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling = and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP al= gorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will note = the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the traf= fic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric EBBR = knows how to forward the packet backward.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would ne= ed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (B= FER).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can= be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by =C2=A0 =C2=A0doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface me= trics
=C2=A0 =C2=A0swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any =C2=A0 =C2=A0IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even thoug= h its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wa= nts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to write as long as there is no big customer business case ask= ing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it i= s too
=C2=A0 =C2=A0late.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with al= l type
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs.

b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER
=C2=A0 =C2=A0can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which it= self
=C2=A0 =C2=A0has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER.<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnec= essary)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0multiple copies of the packet to be sent.

Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation choice= issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating implemen= tations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated traffic wit= h multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID combinations.

Btw: the document says:

| Addr Family:=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC776= 1]
| BIER Info:=C2=A0 =C2=A0IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id

RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google co= uldn't find me another document where this term is used, so i think THI= S document will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and righ= t now IMHO its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an = "encoding type" typically. Aka:
IMHO something missing here in definition.

HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming= PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to | Addr Family:=C2=A0 =C2=A0pim address family as defined in [RFC7761]
| BIER Info:=C2=A0 =C2=A0IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- The document should make statements about the set= ting of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entropy field in the BIER data packets of in= dividual (S,G) flows.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given the problem of using ECMP paths and th= e prevalence of few bis
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sources sending traffic for many SSM channel= s, i think the entropy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be calculated from both S and G (not = only from S). Also,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if there is no complete ECMP in the network,= multiple FHR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will potentially send the same traffic, and = then that should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0flow as much as possible across different pa= ths (so as not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to overload a single link).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id)= % 20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0might be a good recommendation for the entro= py.
>
> HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draf= t. It is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing thi= s should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also.

This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field.
I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, bu= t that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr = our solution description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for op= erators.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term t= hat AFAIK is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 undefined in any standards track RFC. I gue= ss it meant to say ASM,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-P= IM.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i thi= nk there is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the additional dependency of figuring out w= here RP information
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 comes from. Assuming they are manually conf= igured consistently
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains= use either some old Cisco
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of t= hese will work
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 through this solution unless we add a solut= ion to support
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think = that might have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 been the idea of defining the term BFT in t= he document, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that term is not used.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR= , i do not like the resulting
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solution, because we would still require th= e RPT/SPT switchover
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*= ,G) LHR. I would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC83= 64 and just use the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active = messages to all LHR.
>
>
> HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working= ..

Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to = make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN = controller that can automate configuration.

> HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and ma= ke it just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out= previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune= etc..

Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can = potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide lat= er on an ASM solution.

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If you ask me, it would be good enough to f= inalize the doc for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)= -active-signaling
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 later.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The other high level question is: What are the good reaso= ns to use
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ?= As opposed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they shou= ld be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 written down.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould w= e
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram si= gnaling
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path),= when we went
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: O= riginal multicast
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packe= ts got lost
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.= ). BGP or PORT
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 solve this issue.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling shou= ld be via PORT.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on th= e answer to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 above question.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking w= e do not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solut= ion even
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 though we've recognized that need long time ago in pr= ior solutions,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 then please write at least a section about the DiffServ r= equirements,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets= for join/prune get
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap hea= ders (there
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP).
>
> Cheers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>
> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote:
> > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-bier-pim-signaling/ per request and consensus @ IETF 102 ???
> >
> > --- tony
> >

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de
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BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/bier
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= br> --0000000000008eae4305960487e4-- From nobody Mon Oct 28 22:55:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E673E1200BA for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:55:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uQZccM0FXyHc for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23C9E120013 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id e10so8723635pgd.11 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:55:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=zIBI6RIG48UV2Ti5XM4FZLF+2PGi5MhcA5TSijGBOT8=; b=jwIRdoAN76r/oTLj8vXsqLhO81ZwO1yIsFq1yC++iI0/E5M3QJQpdY4La9E82OFny8 nVgnZGtXL5FP9nNNW6oMQaX3otC8vTDpPqXIdf9VqtrAvr2S/tKoVq9Ft5mWdqBczyF4 ffLLukodV/w6COQnmmCBf6gknINnq5xMWgNADR6hHfVbcS6sYIgAMqWllfCsdiB4sif7 N9GexZmIJGqd0cP60zhgoTDW4OjlXrxdItr2jOmLF+Vq17O1D4vb89TN8o+qs5TuQasn 6lE56sqCWxsZEf6gaO/N/B4yMorJetIRrpSYpNsaHUJMOQIyhf8wrI9TXV/BJ/M9YkEn Azcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=zIBI6RIG48UV2Ti5XM4FZLF+2PGi5MhcA5TSijGBOT8=; b=hpVWSQbUw82S5TKjHOMRldjJNhkJPlO+asBkvahxOJcPR8LPtOTrmU3fFNAzqH6H9i VBrDvrkqjFAtuMavlZeiUlGAJ/TyZUf3kLb636U5YG3oi0DDG4ItEKBqMK8Lwqs6kx4k DrDRPOvIYknpc+TWmnRJDs0UrafILkVA7aZL15q7LlKtjc/5JL9sLL1R/j2R6N8rXFp/ Eexsdkv4y0o128qE2YZPnkSG6e5OBIzKOLOIztNAVWIzRjiAjpOPOfy6R0Tmhx3uEEQC 2+J7twTzDZKMaGI5BYdhL5xCqKaFSq1/jy/6Xq1DOxCcbTn6Yj3Mp7fipeROLTAaQgWB xYVw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWmxoQC42aiMZ2i1uwDTsfW+nNgvbQD0c9oowG4IezSYolgmd/R 3LmXwji2tihjSVVEIgzSs4g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzwubBxCPa87GF8DzQdDf/eCW8TkfCg3OI5bQ/5DJSaFR3ycE8FoYzaLG8AgQjuFx5ibcJLGg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:fb0f:: with SMTP id x15mr3673933pfm.59.1572328500528; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-189-13-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.189.13.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 16sm12617099pfn.35.2019.10.28.22.54.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7EECFCC5-77F8-4483-9FA7-E402580ED7CA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jeff Tantsura Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:54:58 -0700 Message-Id: <344EC7B7-231A-4784-A121-54571357AFCD@gmail.com> References: Cc: Stig Venaas , Toerless Eckert , bier@ietf.org, "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" In-Reply-To: To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 05:55:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail-7EECFCC5-77F8-4483-9FA7-E402580ED7CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Same here, I see lots of ASM in enterprise networks. Regards, Jeff > On Oct 28, 2019, at 20:51, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Watching this interesting thread from the side I would like to second what= Stig just said. >=20 > In many enterprise deployments all sources are receivers and vice versa he= nce support of ASM makes a lot of sense here. >=20 > Kind regards, > Robert. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 23:35 Stig Venaas wrote: >> Hi >>=20 >> While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this= solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up= to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned,= it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope. >>=20 >> Stig >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: >>> Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> >>>=20 >>> Regards >>>=20 >>> Hooman >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Toerless Eckert =20 >>> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM >>> To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) >>> Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf= -bier-pim-signaling/ >>>=20 >>> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ot= tawa) wrote: >>> > HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim jo= ins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or SM.= As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this mechanism.= >>> > HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I can= add a sentence. >>>=20 >>> The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone docume= nt to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this= should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document= describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. >>>=20 >>> If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the docum= ent could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the contr= oversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the document i= s currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think Stig and I= would favor/suggest. >>>=20 >>> HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should ad= d the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also?=20 >>>=20 >>> > HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the implementati= on. As an example when a route request is done for a source of an pim join, i= nternal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be forwarded to. To us th= is like any other ECMP implementation and it should be open. >>> > HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would=20= >>> > HB> multihome base on (S,G) >>>=20 >>> Then the document should add a statement like this: >>> (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). >>>=20 >>> This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a= single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are redundant= ly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one BFIR forw= arding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards different s= et of BFER. >>>=20 >>> HB2> ok I will add the following text. >>>=20 >>> If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm= should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to a= single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As an e= xample it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> > - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-= ID >>> > for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension= >>> > as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two >>> > references are already in the doc but not used at all). >>> >=20 >>> > HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER bounda= ry router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP exte= nsions. >>>=20 >>> Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things togeth= er. >>>=20 >>> I guess the idea is something like this: >>>=20 >>> HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the EBB= R (aka BFIR)=20 >>>=20 >>> 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the s= ource of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate tod= ay... Right ? >>>=20 >>> 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from >>> itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. =46rom that it learns the B= FR-ID to send the join to. Right ? >>>=20 >>> The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more t= han one BFIR because of ECMP: >>>=20 >>> a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. >>> whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then >>> you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. >>>=20 >>> HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling a= nd stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP algo= rithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will note the= BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the traffic b= ack to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric EBBR knows h= ow to forward the packet backward.=20 >>>=20 >>> Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need >>> instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). >>>=20 >>> To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be >>> done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by >>> doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics >>> swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any >>> IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its >>> equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants >>> to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking >>> for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too >>> late. >>>=20 >>> Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how >>> to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type >>> of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. >>>=20 >>> b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER >>> can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself >>> has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. >>>=20 >>> If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID >>> combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) >>> multiple copies of the packet to be sent. >>>=20 >>> Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation cho= ice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating implem= entations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated traffic wi= th multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID combinations. >>>=20 >>> Btw: the document says: >>>=20 >>> | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] >>> | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id >>>=20 >>> RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't f= ind me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document wi= ll end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO its= too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding type"= typically. Aka: >>> IMHO something missing here in definition. >>>=20 >>> HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming= PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to >>> | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] >>> | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id >>>=20 >>> > - The document should make statements about the setting of the >>> > entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows= . >>> > Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few b= is >>> > sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entro= py >>> > should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, >>> > if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR >>> > will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should >>> > flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not >>> > to overload a single link). >>> >=20 >>> > E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 >>> > might be a good recommendation for the entropy. >>> >=20 >>> > HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. I= t is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this sho= uld be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. >>>=20 >>> This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field.=20 >>> I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but= that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution des= cription equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. >>>=20 >>> > 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is >>> > undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say A= SM, >>> > but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. >>> >=20 >>> > If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is >>> > the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information >>> > comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently >>> > is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old= Cisco >>> > proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work >>> > through this solution unless we add a solution to support >>> > flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have >>> > been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but >>> > that term is not used. >>> >=20 >>> > - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the r= esulting >>> > solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover= >>> > signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would >>> > be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the >>> > BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR.= >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working...= >>>=20 >>> Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able t= o make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN= controller that can automate configuration. >>>=20 >>> > HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make i= t just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out prev= iously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune etc..= >>>=20 >>> Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines c= an potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide l= ater on an ASM solution.=20 >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>> Toerless >>>=20 >>> > If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for >>> > SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling >>> > later. >>> >=20 >>> > The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use >>> > BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As oppose= d >>> > to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be >>> > written down. >>> >=20 >>> > The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we >>> > reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling >>> > for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we w= ent >>> > through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original mu= lticast >>> > VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got los= t >>> > duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or P= ORT >>> > solve this issue. >>> >=20 >>> > Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via P= ORT. >>> > The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer t= o >>> > above question. >>> >=20 >>> > If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not >>> > need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even >>> > though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions,= >>> > then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirement= s, >>> > aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get >>> > appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (ther= e >>> > are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). >>> >=20 >>> > Cheers >>> > Toerless >>> >=20 >>> > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: >>> > > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/= doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? >>> > > >>> > > --- tony >>> > > >>>=20 >>> -- >>> --- >>> tte@cs.fau.de >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --Apple-Mail-7EECFCC5-77F8-4483-9FA7-E402580ED7CA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Same here, I see lots of ASM in enterprise n= etworks.

Regards,
Jeff

On Oct 28, 2019, at 20:51, Robert Raszuk &= lt;rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Watching this interesting= thread from the side I would like to second what Stig just said.

In many enterprise deployments all source= s are receivers and vice versa hence support of ASM makes a lot of sense her= e.

Kind regards,
Robert.


On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 23:35 Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com> wrote:
Hi

While w= e all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this solution t= o SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up to vendors= or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, it works j= ust fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope.

Stig


On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <ho= oman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:
Adding the working group as well, inline HB2>

Regards

Hooman


-----Original Message-----
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM
To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@n= okia.com>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/<= /a>

On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa= ) wrote:
> HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim j= oins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or SM= . As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this mechanism= .
> HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I c= an add a sentence.

The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document t= o define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this sho= uld just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document des= cribing how to build a working interoperable solution from it.

If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the document c= ould be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the controvers= y between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the document is cu= rrently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think Stig and I wou= ld favor/suggest.

HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should add= the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also?

> HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the implementa= tion. As an example when a route request is done for a source of an pim join= , internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be forwarded to. To us= this like any other ECMP implementation and it should be open.
> HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would=
> HB> multihome base on (S,G)

Then the document should add a statement like this:
(using BFR or BBR terminology as you please).

This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a sin= gle BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are redundantly a= ttached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one BFIR forwardi= ng the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards different set o= f BFER.

HB2> ok I will add the following text.

If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm sho= uld ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to a si= ngle EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As an exa= mple it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP.


>     - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining= that the BFR-ID
>       for the choosen FHR would be learned from the= IGP BIER extension
>       as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension do= cs (the two
>       references are already in the doc but not use= d at all).
>
> HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER boun= dary router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP ex= tensions.

Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together.<= br>
I guess the idea is something like this:

HB2> have you looked at the appendix  A? it explains how to find the= EBBR (aka BFIR)

1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the sourc= e of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate today..= . Right ?

2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from
itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. =46rom that it learns the BFR-I= D to send the join to. Right ?

The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more than o= ne BFIR because of ECMP:

a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path.
   whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then=
   you may end up picking a wrong BFIR.

HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling a= nd stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP algo= rithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will note the= BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the traffic b= ack to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric EBBR knows h= ow to forward the packet backward.

   Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would nee= d
   instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFE= R).

   To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can b= e
   done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by    doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface met= rics
   swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any    IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though= its
   equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wan= ts
   to write as long as there is no big customer business case aski= ng
   for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is= too
   late.

   Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how    to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all typ= e
   of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs.

b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER
   can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which its= elf
   has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER.
   If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID    combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessar= y)
   multiple copies of the packet to be sent.

Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation choice i= ssues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating implementat= ions, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated traffic with mu= ltiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID combinations.

Btw: the document says:

| Addr Family:   BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761= ]
| BIER Info:   IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id

RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't find= me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document will e= nd up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO its too= terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding type" typ= ically. Aka:
IMHO something missing here in definition.

HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming P= IM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to
| Addr Family:   pim address family as defined in [RFC7761]
| BIER Info:   IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id

>     - The document should make statements about the sett= ing of the
>       entropy field in the BIER data packets of ind= ividual (S,G) flows.
>       Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the= prevalence of few bis
>       sources sending traffic for many SSM channels= , i think the entropy
>       should be calculated from both S and G (not o= nly from S). Also,
>       if there is no complete ECMP in the network, m= ultiple FHR
>       will potentially send the same traffic, and t= hen that should
>       flow as much as possible across different pat= hs (so as not
>       to overload a single link).
>
>       E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) %= 20
>       might be a good recommendation for the entrop= y.
>
> HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft= . It is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this s= hould be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also.

This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field.
I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but tha= t doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution descrip= tion equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators.

>     2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term th= at AFAIK is
>        undefined in any standards track RFC. I gues= s it meant to say ASM,
>        but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PI= M.
>
>        If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i thin= k there is
>        the additional dependency of figuring out wh= ere RP information
>        comes from. Assuming they are manually confi= gured consistently
>        is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains u= se either some old Cisco
>        proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of th= ese will work
>        through this solution unless we add a soluti= on to support
>        flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think t= hat might have
>        been the idea of defining the term BFT in th= e document, but
>        that term is not used.
>
>        - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR,= i do not like the resulting
>        solution, because we would still require the= RPT/SPT switchover
>        signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,= G) LHR. I would
>        be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC836= 4 and just use the
>        BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active m= essages to all LHR.
>
>
> HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working.= ..

Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to m= ake the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN co= ntroller that can automate configuration.

> HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and mak= e it just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out p= reviously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune et= c..

Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can p= otentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide later= on an ASM solution.

Cheers
    Toerless

>        If you ask me, it would be good enough to fi= nalize the doc for
>        SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-= active-signaling
>        later.
>
>    The other high level question is: What are the good reason= s to use
>    BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? A= s opposed
>    to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they shoul= d be
>    written down.
>
>    The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we=
>    reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram sig= naling
>    for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), w= hen we went
>    through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Or= iginal multicast
>    VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packet= s got lost
>    duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.)= . BGP or PORT
>    solve this issue.
>
>    Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling shoul= d be via PORT.
>    The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the= answer to
>    above question.
>
>    If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we= do not
>    need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER soluti= on even
>    though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior s= olutions,
>    then please write at least a section about the DiffServ re= quirements,
>    aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/p= rune get
>    appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap head= ers (there
>    are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP).
>
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>
> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote:
> > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= bier-pim-signaling/ per request and consensus @ IETF 102 ???
> >
> > --- tony
> >

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/= bier
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https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/bier
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IEkgaG9wZSB0aGlzIGlzIHVzZWZ1bC4NCj4gDQo+IFZlcnkgbXVjaCBzby4NCj4gDQo+IENoZWVy cw0KPiAgICAgVG9lcmxlc3MNCj4gDQo+ID4gQmVzdCwNCj4gPiANCj4gPiBEaXJrDQo+IA0KPiAN Cg0KLS0NCi0tLQ0KdHRlQGNzLmZhdS5kZQ0K From nobody Tue Oct 29 13:19:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4A11200E3 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:19:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EVUPmBrHX3WH for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA1D012001E for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C37548026; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:19:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id B1F5E440015; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:19:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:19:44 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stig Venaas Cc: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , BIER WG Message-ID: <20191029201944.GE24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191028080131.GC24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:19:55 -0000 Well... how would you like to see ASM being done in this document ? RPT+SPT or what you proposed in a separate document ??? If we document the RPT+SPT approach in this document, nobody will implement the newer/better solution. We know that from experience (whatever the worst solution to a problem is, thats what the industry uses). Cheers Toerless On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:34:53PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: > Hi > > While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this > solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up > to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, > it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope. > > Stig > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > > > Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> > > > > Regards > > > > Hooman > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert > > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM > > To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ > > > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - > > CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > > HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim > > joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or > > SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this > > mechanism. > > > HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I can > > add a sentence. > > > > The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document > > to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this > > should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document > > describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. > > > > If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the > > document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the > > controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the > > document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think > > Stig and I would favor/suggest. > > > > HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should add > > the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? > > > > > HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the > > implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of > > an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be > > forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should > > be open. > > > HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would > > > HB> multihome base on (S,G) > > > > Then the document should add a statement like this: > > (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). > > > > This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a > > single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are > > redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one > > BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards > > different set of BFER. > > > > HB2> ok I will add the following text. > > > > If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm > > should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to > > a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As > > an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. > > > > > > > - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID > > > for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension > > > as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two > > > references are already in the doc but not used at all). > > > > > > HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER boundary > > router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP > > extensions. > > > > Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together. > > > > I guess the idea is something like this: > > > > HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the EBBR > > (aka BFIR) > > > > 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the > > source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate > > today. Right ? > > > > 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from > > itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the > > BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? > > > > The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more > > than one BFIR because of ECMP: > > > > a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. > > whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then > > you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. > > > > HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling > > and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP > > algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will > > note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the > > traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric > > EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward. > > > > Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need > > instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). > > > > To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be > > done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by > > doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics > > swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any > > IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its > > equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants > > to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking > > for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too > > late. > > > > Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how > > to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type > > of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. > > > > b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER > > can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself > > has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. > > > > If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID > > combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) > > multiple copies of the packet to be sent. > > > > Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation > > choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating > > implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated > > traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID > > combinations. > > > > Btw: the document says: > > > > | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] > > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > > RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't > > find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document > > will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO > > its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding > > type" typically. Aka: > > IMHO something missing here in definition. > > > > HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming > > PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to > > | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] > > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > > > - The document should make statements about the setting of the > > > entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows. > > > Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few bis > > > sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entropy > > > should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, > > > if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR > > > will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should > > > flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not > > > to overload a single link). > > > > > > E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 > > > might be a good recommendation for the entropy. > > > > > > HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. It > > is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this > > should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. > > > > This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. > > I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but > > that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution > > description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. > > > > > 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is > > > undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say ASM, > > > but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. > > > > > > If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is > > > the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information > > > comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently > > > is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old > > Cisco > > > proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work > > > through this solution unless we add a solution to support > > > flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have > > > been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but > > > that term is not used. > > > > > > - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the > > resulting > > > solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover > > > signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would > > > be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the > > > BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. > > > > > > > > > HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working. > > > > Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to > > make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN > > controller that can automate configuration. > > > > > HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make it > > just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out > > previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune > > etc.. > > > > Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can > > potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide > > later on an ASM solution. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for > > > SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling > > > later. > > > > > > The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use > > > BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As opposed > > > to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be > > > written down. > > > > > > The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we > > > reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling > > > for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we went > > > through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original > > multicast > > > VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost > > > duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or > > PORT > > > solve this issue. > > > > > > Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via > > PORT. > > > The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer to > > > above question. > > > > > > If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not > > > need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even > > > though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, > > > then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirements, > > > aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get > > > appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (there > > > are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per > > request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Oct 29 13:34:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27C112007A for ; 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Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:34:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191028080131.GC24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191029201944.GE24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20191029201944.GE24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stig Venaas Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:34:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , BIER WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:34:47 -0000 Hi What already is in the document works for me, allowing any PIM J/P, regardless of ASM or SSM. You are suggesting that it talks about high level scenarios though, right? Perhaps it is worth adding a section or two with scenarios. If only SSM scenario is discussed, then I think it should be pointed out that the solution is not limited to SSM. But perhaps both SSM and ASM section can be added? Alternatively, and maybe better, keep this document mostly as it is, and have a separate informational document that discusses use cases for this, as well as other BIER overlay mechanisms? Stig On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:19 PM Toerless Eckert wrote: > > Well... how would you like to see ASM being done in this document ? > RPT+SPT or what you proposed in a separate document ??? > > If we document the RPT+SPT approach in this document, nobody will > implement the newer/better solution. We know that from experience > (whatever the worst solution to a problem is, thats what the industry > uses). > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:34:53PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: > > Hi > > > > While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this > > solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up > > to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, > > it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope. > > > > Stig > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > > > > > Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Hooman > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Toerless Eckert > > > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM > > > To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - > > > CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > > > HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim > > > joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or > > > SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this > > > mechanism. > > > > HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I can > > > add a sentence. > > > > > > The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document > > > to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this > > > should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document > > > describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. > > > > > > If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the > > > document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the > > > controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the > > > document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think > > > Stig and I would favor/suggest. > > > > > > HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should add > > > the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? > > > > > > > HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the > > > implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of > > > an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be > > > forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should > > > be open. > > > > HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would > > > > HB> multihome base on (S,G) > > > > > > Then the document should add a statement like this: > > > (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). > > > > > > This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a > > > single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are > > > redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one > > > BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards > > > different set of BFER. > > > > > > HB2> ok I will add the following text. > > > > > > If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm > > > should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to > > > a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As > > > an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. > > > > > > > > > > - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID > > > > for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension > > > > as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two > > > > references are already in the doc but not used at all). > > > > > > > > HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER boundary > > > router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP > > > extensions. > > > > > > Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together. > > > > > > I guess the idea is something like this: > > > > > > HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the EBBR > > > (aka BFIR) > > > > > > 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the > > > source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate > > > today. Right ? > > > > > > 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from > > > itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the > > > BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? > > > > > > The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more > > > than one BFIR because of ECMP: > > > > > > a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. > > > whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then > > > you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. > > > > > > HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling > > > and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP > > > algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will > > > note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the > > > traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric > > > EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward. > > > > > > Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need > > > instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). > > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be > > > done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by > > > doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics > > > swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any > > > IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its > > > equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants > > > to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking > > > for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too > > > late. > > > > > > Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how > > > to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type > > > of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. > > > > > > b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER > > > can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself > > > has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. > > > > > > If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID > > > combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) > > > multiple copies of the packet to be sent. > > > > > > Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation > > > choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating > > > implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated > > > traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID > > > combinations. > > > > > > Btw: the document says: > > > > > > | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] > > > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > > > > RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't > > > find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document > > > will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO > > > its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding > > > type" typically. Aka: > > > IMHO something missing here in definition. > > > > > > HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming > > > PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to > > > | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] > > > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > > > > > - The document should make statements about the setting of the > > > > entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows. > > > > Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few bis > > > > sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entropy > > > > should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, > > > > if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR > > > > will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should > > > > flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not > > > > to overload a single link). > > > > > > > > E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 > > > > might be a good recommendation for the entropy. > > > > > > > > HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. It > > > is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this > > > should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. > > > > > > This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. > > > I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but > > > that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution > > > description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. > > > > > > > 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is > > > > undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say ASM, > > > > but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. > > > > > > > > If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is > > > > the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information > > > > comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently > > > > is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old > > > Cisco > > > > proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work > > > > through this solution unless we add a solution to support > > > > flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have > > > > been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but > > > > that term is not used. > > > > > > > > - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the > > > resulting > > > > solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover > > > > signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would > > > > be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the > > > > BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. > > > > > > > > > > > > HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working. > > > > > > Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to > > > make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN > > > controller that can automate configuration. > > > > > > > HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make it > > > just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out > > > previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune > > > etc.. > > > > > > Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can > > > potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide > > > later on an ASM solution. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for > > > > SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling > > > > later. > > > > > > > > The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use > > > > BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As opposed > > > > to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be > > > > written down. > > > > > > > > The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we > > > > reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling > > > > for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we went > > > > through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original > > > multicast > > > > VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost > > > > duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or > > > PORT > > > > solve this issue. > > > > > > > > Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via > > > PORT. > > > > The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer to > > > > above question. > > > > > > > > If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not > > > > need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even > > > > though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, > > > > then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirements, > > > > aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get > > > > appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (there > > > > are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per > > > request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? > > > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Oct 29 14:47:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3B4120125 for ; 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Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:46:58 +0000 From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" To: Stig Venaas CC: Toerless Eckert , BIER WG , "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Thread-Topic: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ Thread-Index: AQHVin8eBHx60cKXgECAUQFxfdB9p6dqj5oAgAUnOICAAT/9gIAAB9mAgAEYwQCAAAQgAIAAFD8A Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:46:58 +0000 Message-ID: <858419AA-2E71-43A0-B49C-D71D27F2AEE6@cisco.com> References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191028080131.GC24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191029201944.GE24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mankamis@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [128.107.241.189] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3bdcc705-c230-424c-92dd-08d75cb9861c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR11MB0021: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 2 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0205EDCD76 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(376002)(396003)(346002)(136003)(39860400002)(366004)(189003)(199004)(51444003)(13464003)(52084003)(6486002)(256004)(6436002)(5024004)(7736002)(6116002)(3846002)(6916009)(14444005)(4326008)(186003)(11346002)(5660300002)(30864003)(2616005)(476003)(486006)(64756008)(66446008)(229853002)(305945005)(6306002)(6512007)(91956017)(446003)(6246003)(76116006)(66574012)(66556008)(66476007)(66946007)(8936002)(8676002)(25786009)(99286004)(316002)(81166006)(81156014)(76176011)(102836004)(54906003)(478600001)(26005)(53546011)(33656002)(6506007)(14454004)(966005)(36756003)(2906002)(71200400001)(71190400001)(66066001)(86362001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR11MB0021; H:CY4PR11MB1446.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: tJSkuXWVk23HjDDI45OQSSxjZq6g/aodDTqx7rnu98Ab1l9uFRAs+gNOF6Q7mxs3GxhbdjCaus9WIYaXsEqCq23jOInd/CqUOPiy+hoBx9i6lNaRjmbemZBkI8cbtwrLckXPKQKkHWcaflVbZFxM3wA1V19z8cYUOj0TMKsEU/kLJpWm8XWGFUWHWnh3Ie4bXQR/XVbplfiwZdqnujdmCgcumpjLoU1zfizQP2Xk6N8T/6r0n2l3GJFGORlc3lxx/ztaq1p43bbfQnzJLCWvGFiMH85SsefGTyzYtcLTehTWgXpxbc6L+wPnhlWP+taeFSllndXn0WzhoMH/DEHD/poKfWqep7tkKNUK2lW7LE1ThTj669OG+T91B4rCU09aJL64AkoqVGEmYYqjvvs7C5cMSO84GOUpb6NyE0o5OA99plrRUKGK7V9FphQn/H+XhmiA2z7/Hlyk9bNgN+5sJouGqfD/GqmQKC5MdEpuG0M= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6031D11E96A86C4FBA577632C5393DD9@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3bdcc705-c230-424c-92dd-08d75cb9861c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Oct 2019 21:46:58.2780 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: DRlyeQCF7bkDoD3DEBbnxLeWW44vXbu41pEMS1XyD2gaS0yAvZ5/DIjMjvxZMoct2fm6ZWhmuVp68peep3oHNA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR11MB0021 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:47:07 -0000 I think it would be better idea, to keep this document as is. and have inde= pendent informational draft covering other case.=20 > On Oct 29, 2019, at 1:34 PM, Stig Venaas wrote: >=20 > Hi >=20 > What already is in the document works for me, allowing any PIM J/P, > regardless of ASM or SSM. You are suggesting that it talks about high > level scenarios though, right? Perhaps it is worth adding a section or > two with scenarios. If only SSM scenario is discussed, then I think it > should be pointed out that the solution is not limited to SSM. But > perhaps both SSM and ASM section can be added? >=20 > Alternatively, and maybe better, keep this document mostly as it is, > and have a separate informational document that discusses use cases > for this, as well as other BIER overlay mechanisms? >=20 > Stig >=20 > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:19 PM Toerless Eckert wrote: >>=20 >> Well... how would you like to see ASM being done in this document ? >> RPT+SPT or what you proposed in a separate document ??? >>=20 >> If we document the RPT+SPT approach in this document, nobody will >> implement the newer/better solution. We know that from experience >> (whatever the worst solution to a problem is, thats what the industry >> uses). >>=20 >> Cheers >> Toerless >>=20 >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:34:53PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: >>> Hi >>>=20 >>> While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict th= is >>> solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution i= s up >>> to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentio= ned, >>> it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the sco= pe. >>>=20 >>> Stig >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < >>> hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>>=20 >>>> Hooman >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Toerless Eckert >>>> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM >>>> To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) >>>> Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ >>>>=20 >>>> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - >>>> CA/Ottawa) wrote: >>>>> HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim >>>> joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SS= M or >>>> SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this >>>> mechanism. >>>>> HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I ca= n >>>> add a sentence. >>>>=20 >>>> The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone docu= ment >>>> to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if t= his >>>> should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another doc= ument >>>> describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. >>>>=20 >>>> If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the >>>> document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get int= o the >>>> controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which th= e >>>> document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i = think >>>> Stig and I would favor/suggest. >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should = add >>>> the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? >>>>=20 >>>>> HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the >>>> implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a sourc= e of >>>> an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be >>>> forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it sho= uld >>>> be open. >>>>> HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would >>>>> HB> multihome base on (S,G) >>>>=20 >>>> Then the document should add a statement like this: >>>> (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). >>>>=20 >>>> This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select= a >>>> single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are >>>> redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more tha= n one >>>> BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towa= rds >>>> different set of BFER. >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> ok I will add the following text. >>>>=20 >>>> If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorit= hm >>>> should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forwar= d to >>>> a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific.= As >>>> an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-= ID >>>>> for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension >>>>> as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two >>>>> references are already in the doc but not used at all). >>>>>=20 >>>>> HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER bound= ary >>>> router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP >>>> extensions. >>>>=20 >>>> Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things toge= ther. >>>>=20 >>>> I guess the idea is something like this: >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the E= BBR >>>> (aka BFIR) >>>>=20 >>>> 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the >>>> source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calcul= ate >>>> today. Right ? >>>>=20 >>>> 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from >>>> itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the >>>> BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? >>>>=20 >>>> The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more >>>> than one BFIR because of ECMP: >>>>=20 >>>> a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. >>>> whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then >>>> you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signalin= g >>>> and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If EC= MP >>>> algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR wil= l >>>> note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always sen= d the >>>> traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmet= ric >>>> EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward. >>>>=20 >>>> Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need >>>> instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). >>>>=20 >>>> To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be >>>> done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by >>>> doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics >>>> swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any >>>> IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its >>>> equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants >>>> to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking >>>> for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too >>>> late. >>>>=20 >>>> Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how >>>> to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type >>>> of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. >>>>=20 >>>> b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER >>>> can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself >>>> has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. >>>>=20 >>>> If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID >>>> combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) >>>> multiple copies of the packet to be sent. >>>>=20 >>>> Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation >>>> choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperati= ng >>>> implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicate= d >>>> traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID >>>> combinations. >>>>=20 >>>> Btw: the document says: >>>>=20 >>>> | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] >>>> | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id >>>>=20 >>>> RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn'= t >>>> find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS docu= ment >>>> will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now = IMHO >>>> its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encod= ing >>>> type" typically. Aka: >>>> IMHO something missing here in definition. >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incomi= ng >>>> PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it t= o >>>> | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] >>>> | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id >>>>=20 >>>>> - The document should make statements about the setting of the >>>>> entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows= . >>>>> Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few = bis >>>>> sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entro= py >>>>> should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, >>>>> if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR >>>>> will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should >>>>> flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not >>>>> to overload a single link). >>>>>=20 >>>>> E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 >>>>> might be a good recommendation for the entropy. >>>>>=20 >>>>> HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft.= It >>>> is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this >>>> should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. >>>>=20 >>>> This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. >>>> I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, b= ut >>>> that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solutio= n >>>> description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. >>>>=20 >>>>> 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is >>>>> undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say A= SM, >>>>> but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is >>>>> the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information >>>>> comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently >>>>> is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old >>>> Cisco >>>>> proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work >>>>> through this solution unless we add a solution to support >>>>> flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have >>>>> been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but >>>>> that term is not used. >>>>>=20 >>>>> - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the >>>> resulting >>>>> solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover >>>>> signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would >>>>> be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the >>>>> BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being abl= e to >>>> make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an= SDN >>>> controller that can automate configuration. >>>>=20 >>>>> HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make= it >>>> just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out >>>> previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join p= rune >>>> etc.. >>>>=20 >>>> Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines= can >>>> potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decid= e >>>> later on an ASM solution. >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers >>>> Toerless >>>>=20 >>>>> If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for >>>>> SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling >>>>> later. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use >>>>> BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As oppose= d >>>>> to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be >>>>> written down. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we >>>>> reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling >>>>> for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we w= ent >>>>> through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original >>>> multicast >>>>> VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got los= t >>>>> duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or >>>> PORT >>>>> solve this issue. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via >>>> PORT. >>>>> The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer t= o >>>>> above question. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not >>>>> need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even >>>>> though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, >>>>> then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirement= s, >>>>> aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get >>>>> appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (ther= e >>>>> are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Toerless >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: >>>>>> This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per >>>> request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> --- tony >>>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> --- >>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BIER mailing list >>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>>=20 >>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> --- >> tte@cs.fau.de >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Tue Oct 29 18:52:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0F41200A3; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:51:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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J08NHqOEw5mBSk4KtVltJWvDhe/zimFk8otCGdFAQSjv2aXK9DRD5+3i53vaeRDADfAQp+6AebErz4oXePke/fTebC37XjCB7RnkZQ5n6m6lAeeiaxdm8+uzTcMVhkYq30VDI3ZsFKCWNyMq2T7MboQOBOwl7Vc4lGvAhiOItdpqZq8xSg0Y6Gfx/3CLUolmJUWdc5T0325c0Xbxl4ib3JwhtKEZTmIoVlW/8nfEj+gFIFC8xyvSh7aJKIznlhmc9p2pX6PeNSS7BZuK94R508xVBgO3eYn/F5GPWctS1X9m+PiiBchlwXMbzkb3Drbv+4aXclFmSMAjTK4PWeI+BGchRCvCewyAcoGNGmE/UUZR34kWUzSCkrHyG2+/RyWe6gD4Z0nhpMJq2NNDKHpBVjQ6YvsLxK6ZmgtU6kXbSUXCSBPA3IwAjUaKDTQHi+IkwmhZEFZQ1g8PekRlYldqPKF0XGbRjLTiDkRJn8ICedg= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 64644e54-c9e8-4f29-2374-08d75ce4fe10 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Oct 2019 02:58:07.9544 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: V+UrSR6qnEZxxYI1TuvG+YXCjYa/J2lFJGPvyqTG4TPUTTU4ZSlilECA6U44UWCCOe4Jm5PZ+mCWHR1a1BCKS3fuieU5CYzvmFflTu+OK38= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB5015 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 02:58:15 -0000 Thanks all! So just to ensure I got all info 1. I will add a section for ECMP If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the=20 algorithm should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S,=20 C-G) is forward to a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is=20 application specific. As an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR = IP 2. change the AF to PIM AF 3. I am also in the same mindset as Stig and Mankamana, I think we should m= ake the document about signaling PIM J/P through a BIER and point out that = for some of the more involved SM/ASM protocols like auto-RP etc.. there is = a need for extensions which will be available in future text. Regards Hooman -----Original Message----- From: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 5:47 PM To: Stig Venaas Cc: Toerless Eckert ; BIER WG ; Bidgoli, Hoom= an (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bi= er-pim-signaling/ I think it would be better idea, to keep this document as is. and have inde= pendent informational draft covering other case.=20 > On Oct 29, 2019, at 1:34 PM, Stig Venaas wrote: >=20 > Hi >=20 > What already is in the document works for me, allowing any PIM J/P,=20 > regardless of ASM or SSM. You are suggesting that it talks about high=20 > level scenarios though, right? Perhaps it is worth adding a section or=20 > two with scenarios. If only SSM scenario is discussed, then I think it=20 > should be pointed out that the solution is not limited to SSM. But=20 > perhaps both SSM and ASM section can be added? >=20 > Alternatively, and maybe better, keep this document mostly as it is,=20 > and have a separate informational document that discusses use cases=20 > for this, as well as other BIER overlay mechanisms? >=20 > Stig >=20 > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:19 PM Toerless Eckert wrote: >>=20 >> Well... how would you like to see ASM being done in this document ? >> RPT+SPT or what you proposed in a separate document ??? >>=20 >> If we document the RPT+SPT approach in this document, nobody will=20 >> implement the newer/better solution. We know that from experience=20 >> (whatever the worst solution to a problem is, thats what the industry=20 >> uses). >>=20 >> Cheers >> Toerless >>=20 >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:34:53PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: >>> Hi >>>=20 >>> While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict=20 >>> this solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM=20 >>> solution is up to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to=20 >>> prohibit ASM. As mentioned, it works just fine with static RP. It would= be a shame to limit the scope. >>>=20 >>> Stig >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <=20 >>> hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>>=20 >>>> Hooman >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Toerless Eckert >>>> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM >>>> To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) >>>> Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ >>>>=20 >>>> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - >>>> CA/Ottawa) wrote: >>>>> HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel=20 >>>>> HB> pim >>>> joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about=20 >>>> SSM or SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked=20 >>>> with this mechanism. >>>>> HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I=20 >>>>> HB> can >>>> add a sentence. >>>>=20 >>>> The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone=20 >>>> document to define a working, implementable and interoperable=20 >>>> solution, or if this should just be some protocol encodings, and=20 >>>> there would be another document describing how to build a working inte= roperable solution from it. >>>>=20 >>>> If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the=20 >>>> document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get=20 >>>> into the controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in=20 >>>> MVPN (which the document is currently hinting at) and newer=20 >>>> mechanisms such as what i think Stig and I would favor/suggest. >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only.=20 >>>> HB2> Should add >>>> the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? >>>>=20 >>>>> HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the >>>> implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a=20 >>>> source of an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it=20 >>>> should be forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP=20 >>>> implementation and it should be open. >>>>> HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other=20 >>>>> HB> would multihome base on (S,G) >>>>=20 >>>> Then the document should add a statement like this: >>>> (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). >>>>=20 >>>> This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to=20 >>>> select a single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When=20 >>>> sources are redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can=20 >>>> lead to more than one BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic=20 >>>> into the BIER domain - towards different set of BFER. >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> ok I will add the following text. >>>>=20 >>>> If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the=20 >>>> algorithm should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S,=20 >>>> C-G) is forward to a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is=20 >>>> application specific. As an example it can be round robin or smallest = EBBR IP. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-= ID >>>>> for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension >>>>> as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two >>>>> references are already in the doc but not used at all). >>>>>=20 >>>>> HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER=20 >>>>> HB> boundary >>>> router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the=20 >>>> IGP/BGP extensions. >>>>=20 >>>> Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things toge= ther. >>>>=20 >>>> I guess the idea is something like this: >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find=20 >>>> HB2> the EBBR >>>> (aka BFIR) >>>>=20 >>>> 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to=20 >>>> the source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would=20 >>>> calculate today. Right ? >>>>=20 >>>> 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from >>>> itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns=20 >>>> the BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? >>>>=20 >>>> The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of=20 >>>> more than one BFIR because of ECMP: >>>>=20 >>>> a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. >>>> whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then >>>> you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim=20 >>>> HB2> signaling >>>> and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If=20 >>>> ECMP algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that=20 >>>> EBBR will note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it=20 >>>> will always send the traffic back to that particular IBBR so even=20 >>>> if the network is asymmetric EBBR knows how to forward the packet back= ward. >>>>=20 >>>> Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need >>>> instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). >>>>=20 >>>> To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be >>>> done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by >>>> doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics >>>> swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any >>>> IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its >>>> equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants >>>> to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking >>>> for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too >>>> late. >>>>=20 >>>> Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how >>>> to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type >>>> of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. >>>>=20 >>>> b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER >>>> can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself >>>> has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. >>>>=20 >>>> If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID >>>> combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) >>>> multiple copies of the packet to be sent. >>>>=20 >>>> Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the=20 >>>> implementation choice issues because otherwise we likely end up=20 >>>> with non-interoperating implementations, or surprises by the amount=20 >>>> of unnecessarily duplicated traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric=20 >>>> path or multiple SD/BFR-ID combinations. >>>>=20 >>>> Btw: the document says: >>>>=20 >>>> | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] >>>> | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id >>>>=20 >>>> RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google=20 >>>> couldn't find me another document where this term is used, so i=20 >>>> think THIS document will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address=20 >>>> family, and right now IMHO its too terse. Should have some ascii=20 >>>> picture. There is also an "encoding type" typically. Aka: >>>> IMHO something missing here in definition. >>>>=20 >>>> HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the=20 >>>> HB2> incoming >>>> PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change=20 >>>> it to >>>> | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] >>>> | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id >>>>=20 >>>>> - The document should make statements about the setting of the >>>>> entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows= . >>>>> Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few = bis >>>>> sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entro= py >>>>> should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, >>>>> if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR >>>>> will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should >>>>> flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not >>>>> to overload a single link). >>>>>=20 >>>>> E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 >>>>> might be a good recommendation for the entropy. >>>>>=20 >>>>> HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this=20 >>>>> HB> draft. It >>>> is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing=20 >>>> this should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. >>>>=20 >>>> This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. >>>> I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at=20 >>>> all, but that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr=20 >>>> our solution description equally incomplete and subject to surprises f= or operators. >>>>=20 >>>>> 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is >>>>> undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say A= SM, >>>>> but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is >>>>> the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information >>>>> comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently >>>>> is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some=20 >>>>> old >>>> Cisco >>>>> proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work >>>>> through this solution unless we add a solution to support >>>>> flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have >>>>> been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but >>>>> that term is not used. >>>>>=20 >>>>> - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like=20 >>>>> the >>>> resulting >>>>> solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover >>>>> signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would >>>>> be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the >>>>> BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being=20 >>>> able to make the solution look attractive to any operator who does=20 >>>> not have an SDN controller that can automate configuration. >>>>=20 >>>>> HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and=20 >>>>> HB> make it >>>> just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed=20 >>>> out previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim=20 >>>> join prune etc.. >>>>=20 >>>> Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft=20 >>>> defines can potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would=20 >>>> prefer to decide later on an ASM solution. >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers >>>> Toerless >>>>=20 >>>>> If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for >>>>> SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling >>>>> later. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use >>>>> BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As oppose= d >>>>> to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be >>>>> written down. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we >>>>> reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling >>>>> for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we w= ent >>>>> through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original >>>> multicast >>>>> VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got los= t >>>>> duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP=20 >>>>> or >>>> PORT >>>>> solve this issue. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be=20 >>>>> via >>>> PORT. >>>>> The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer t= o >>>>> above question. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not >>>>> need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even >>>>> though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, >>>>> then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirement= s, >>>>> aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get >>>>> appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (ther= e >>>>> are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Toerless >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: >>>>>> This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per=20 >>>> request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> --- tony >>>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> --- >>>> tte@cs.fau.de >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> BIER mailing list >>>> BIER@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>>>=20 >>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> BIER mailing list >>> BIER@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> --- >> tte@cs.fau.de >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Wed Oct 30 00:05:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A62731201EA for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 00:05:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9XixvwqwvCnY for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 00:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19BB01200B6 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 00:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE09548026; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 08:05:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 398C4440015; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 08:05:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 08:05:46 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stig Venaas Cc: BIER WG , "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Message-ID: <20191030070546.GF24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191028080131.GC24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191029201944.GE24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:56 -0000 On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 01:34:30PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: > Hi > > What already is in the document works for me, allowing any PIM J/P, > regardless of ASM or SSM. Describing the message encoding options is not the same as specifying a protocol. Its like PIM-SM message format section without the sections describing the protocol state machinery. > You are suggesting that it talks about high > level scenarios though, right? In the past we called this just "protocols/protocol-options", not "high-levels cenarios", but i take whatever the hip new term is to ensure implementers and operators can develop and deploy working solutions. - SSM: PIM-SSM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping - ASM: - PIM-SSM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping + flooding of active (S,G) - PIM-SM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping a) RPT only b) RPT + SPT switchover, no prune of RPT c) RPT + SPT switchover, prune of RPT Btw: In the PIM-SSM solution for ASM, we do also have the issue of getting the active (S,G) information to the BFIR that should flood this information - in all cases where those BFIR are not PIM FHR (connected to sources). Aka: must operate as RPs. This stuff is all same or similar to MVPN issues, except that i am sure we need a better standalone documentation of these protocol details when we want to get PIM over BIER deployed anywhere: Nobody who deploys MVPN (with BGP signaling) will use PIM over BIER. SO its all going to be new/different customer spaces (Enterprise etc.), and you can't tell them to just figure out what they need to do by reading up on 20 years of MVPN documents. If anyone goes for PIM over BIER instead of MVPN over BIER, then only if its made simpler, and thats not achieved if customers need to stitch together how to make it work from non-existing documentation/protocol-descriptions. > two with scenarios. If only SSM scenario is discussed, then I think it > should be pointed out that the solution is not limited to SSM. But > perhaps both SSM and ASM section can be added? > > Alternatively, and maybe better, keep this document mostly as it is, > and have a separate informational document that discusses use cases > for this, as well as other BIER overlay mechanisms? I certainly would not call it use-cases. To me this is just protocol specification for the different ASM options, and we need to decide if we want to describe all of them because that would encourage all of them. But in any case, i would not like to see ONLY the PIM-SM options described with the flooding of active (S,G) option. My proposal was to keep this document to: I) Message encoding (supporting all possible PIM-(S)SM message options) II) Describing how to do SSM service Then another document could add description of the options for the ASM service as listed above. Or delay the document further to add all the ASM options into this document. Cheers toerless > Stig > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:19 PM Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > Well... how would you like to see ASM being done in this document ? > > RPT+SPT or what you proposed in a separate document ??? > > > > If we document the RPT+SPT approach in this document, nobody will > > implement the newer/better solution. We know that from experience > > (whatever the worst solution to a problem is, thats what the industry > > uses). > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:34:53PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: > > > Hi > > > > > > While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this > > > solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up > > > to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, > > > it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope. > > > > > > Stig > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > > > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Hooman > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Toerless Eckert > > > > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM > > > > To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - > > > > CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > > > > HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim > > > > joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or > > > > SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this > > > > mechanism. > > > > > HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I can > > > > add a sentence. > > > > > > > > The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document > > > > to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this > > > > should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document > > > > describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. > > > > > > > > If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the > > > > document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the > > > > controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the > > > > document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think > > > > Stig and I would favor/suggest. > > > > > > > > HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should add > > > > the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? > > > > > > > > > HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the > > > > implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of > > > > an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be > > > > forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should > > > > be open. > > > > > HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would > > > > > HB> multihome base on (S,G) > > > > > > > > Then the document should add a statement like this: > > > > (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). > > > > > > > > This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a > > > > single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are > > > > redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one > > > > BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards > > > > different set of BFER. > > > > > > > > HB2> ok I will add the following text. > > > > > > > > If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm > > > > should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to > > > > a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As > > > > an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID > > > > > for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension > > > > > as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two > > > > > references are already in the doc but not used at all). > > > > > > > > > > HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER boundary > > > > router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP > > > > extensions. > > > > > > > > Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together. > > > > > > > > I guess the idea is something like this: > > > > > > > > HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the EBBR > > > > (aka BFIR) > > > > > > > > 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the > > > > source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate > > > > today. Right ? > > > > > > > > 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from > > > > itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the > > > > BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? > > > > > > > > The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more > > > > than one BFIR because of ECMP: > > > > > > > > a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. > > > > whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then > > > > you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. > > > > > > > > HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling > > > > and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP > > > > algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will > > > > note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the > > > > traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric > > > > EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward. > > > > > > > > Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need > > > > instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). > > > > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be > > > > done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by > > > > doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics > > > > swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any > > > > IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its > > > > equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants > > > > to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking > > > > for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too > > > > late. > > > > > > > > Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how > > > > to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type > > > > of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. > > > > > > > > b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER > > > > can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself > > > > has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. > > > > > > > > If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID > > > > combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) > > > > multiple copies of the packet to be sent. > > > > > > > > Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation > > > > choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating > > > > implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated > > > > traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID > > > > combinations. > > > > > > > > Btw: the document says: > > > > > > > > | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] > > > > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > > > > > > RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't > > > > find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document > > > > will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO > > > > its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding > > > > type" typically. Aka: > > > > IMHO something missing here in definition. > > > > > > > > HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming > > > > PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to > > > > | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] > > > > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > > > > > > > - The document should make statements about the setting of the > > > > > entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows. > > > > > Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few bis > > > > > sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entropy > > > > > should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, > > > > > if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR > > > > > will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should > > > > > flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not > > > > > to overload a single link). > > > > > > > > > > E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 > > > > > might be a good recommendation for the entropy. > > > > > > > > > > HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. It > > > > is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this > > > > should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. > > > > > > > > This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. > > > > I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but > > > > that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution > > > > description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. > > > > > > > > > 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is > > > > > undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say ASM, > > > > > but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. > > > > > > > > > > If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is > > > > > the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information > > > > > comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently > > > > > is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old > > > > Cisco > > > > > proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work > > > > > through this solution unless we add a solution to support > > > > > flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have > > > > > been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but > > > > > that term is not used. > > > > > > > > > > - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the > > > > resulting > > > > > solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover > > > > > signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would > > > > > be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the > > > > > BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working. > > > > > > > > Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to > > > > make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN > > > > controller that can automate configuration. > > > > > > > > > HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make it > > > > just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out > > > > previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune > > > > etc.. > > > > > > > > Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can > > > > potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide > > > > later on an ASM solution. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for > > > > > SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling > > > > > later. > > > > > > > > > > The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use > > > > > BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As opposed > > > > > to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be > > > > > written down. > > > > > > > > > > The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we > > > > > reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling > > > > > for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we went > > > > > through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original > > > > multicast > > > > > VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost > > > > > duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or > > > > PORT > > > > > solve this issue. > > > > > > > > > > Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via > > > > PORT. > > > > > The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer to > > > > > above question. > > > > > > > > > > If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not > > > > > need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even > > > > > though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, > > > > > then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirements, > > > > > aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get > > > > > appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (there > > > > > are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per > > > > request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > --- > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Oct 30 09:31:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CBB1208AF for ; 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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:31:19 +0000 From: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" To: Toerless Eckert CC: Stig Venaas , BIER WG , "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Thread-Topic: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ Thread-Index: AQHVin8eBHx60cKXgECAUQFxfdB9p6dqj5oAgAUnOICAAT/9gIAAB9mAgAEYwQCAAAQgAIAAsF8AgACeAwA= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:31:18 +0000 Message-ID: <06D97319-D889-4E0B-9BA9-A463254F31E0@cisco.com> References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191028080131.GC24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191029201944.GE24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191030070546.GF24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20191030070546.GF24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mankamis@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [128.107.241.184] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4a0895eb-0e9e-4007-abb8-08d75d5697b9 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR11MB1479: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ho Toerless, Thanks for detail feedback. My recommendation is * Progress this document as is, may be add statement that detail ASM pr= ocedure would be out of scope for this document & it is going to be covered= in next document. * Lets meet in Singapore, and come up with overall framework to be cove= red in new document & publish new with more detail . Since this document has already passed many stages, adding too much extra t= ext is going to bring it back to start :) . Mankamana On Oct 30, 2019, at 12:05 AM, Toerless Eckert > wrote: On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 01:34:30PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: Hi What already is in the document works for me, allowing any PIM J/P, regardless of ASM or SSM. Describing the message encoding options is not the same as specifying a protocol. Its like PIM-SM message format section without the sections describing the protocol state machinery. You are suggesting that it talks about high level scenarios though, right? In the past we called this just "protocols/protocol-options", not "high-levels cenarios", but i take whatever the hip new term is to ensure implementers and operators can develop and deploy working solutions. - SSM: PIM-SSM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping - ASM: - PIM-SSM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping + flooding of active (S,G) - PIM-SM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping a) RPT only b) RPT + SPT switchover, no prune of RPT c) RPT + SPT switchover, prune of RPT Btw: In the PIM-SSM solution for ASM, we do also have the issue of getting the active (S,G) information to the BFIR that should flood this information - in all cases where those BFIR are not PIM FHR (connected to sources). Aka: must operate as RPs. This stuff is all same or similar to MVPN issues, except that i am sure we need a better standalone documentation of these protocol details when we want to get PIM over BIER deployed anywhere: Nobody who deploys MVPN (with BGP signaling) will use PIM over BIER. SO its all going to be new/different customer spaces (Enterprise etc.), and you can't tell them to just figure out what they need to do by reading up on 20 years of MVPN documents. If anyone goes for PIM over BIER instead of MVPN over BIER, then only if its made simpler, and thats not achieved if customers need to stitch together how to make it work from non-existing documentation/protocol-descriptions. two with scenarios. If only SSM scenario is discussed, then I think it should be pointed out that the solution is not limited to SSM. But perhaps both SSM and ASM section can be added? Alternatively, and maybe better, keep this document mostly as it is, and have a separate informational document that discusses use cases for this, as well as other BIER overlay mechanisms? I certainly would not call it use-cases. To me this is just protocol specification for the different ASM options, and we need to decide if we want to describe all of them because that would encourage all of them. But in any case, i would not like to see ONLY the PIM-SM options described with the flooding of active (S,G) option. My proposal was to keep this document to: I) Message encoding (supporting all possible PIM-(S)SM message options) II) Describing how to do SSM service Then another document could add description of the options for the ASM service as listed above. Or delay the document further to add all the ASM options into this document. Cheers toerless Stig On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:19 PM Toerless Eckert > wrote: Well... how would you like to see ASM being done in this document ? RPT+SPT or what you proposed in a separate document ??? If we document the RPT+SPT approach in this document, nobody will implement the newer/better solution. We know that from experience (whatever the worst solution to a problem is, thats what the industry uses). Cheers Toerless On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:34:53PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: Hi While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope. Stig On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> Regards Hooman -----Original Message----- From: Toerless Eckert > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this mechanism. HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I can add a sentence. The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think Stig and I would favor/suggest. HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should add the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should be open. HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would HB> multihome base on (S,G) Then the document should add a statement like this: (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards different set of BFER. HB2> ok I will add the following text. If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two references are already in the doc but not used at all). HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER boundary router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP extensions. Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together. I guess the idea is something like this: HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the EBBR (aka BFIR) 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate today. Right ? 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more than one BFIR because of ECMP: a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward. Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too late. Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) multiple copies of the packet to be sent. Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID combinations. Btw: the document says: | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding type" typically. Aka: IMHO something missing here in definition. HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id - The document should make statements about the setting of the entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows. Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few bis sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entropy should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not to overload a single link). E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 might be a good recommendation for the entropy. HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. It is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say ASM, but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old Cisco proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work through this solution unless we add a solution to support flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but that term is not used. - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the resulting solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working. Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN controller that can automate configuration. HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make it just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune etc.. Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide later on an ASM solution. Cheers Toerless If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling later. The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As opposed to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be written down. The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we went through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original multicast VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or PORT solve this issue. Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via PORT. The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer to above question. If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirements, aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (there are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). Cheers Toerless On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? --- tony -- --- tte@cs.fau.de _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --_000_06D97319D8894E0B9BA9A463254F31E0ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <016BF543820C3E45B9A63734E08A02D3@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ho Toerless,
Thanks for detail feedback.  My recommendation is = ;
  • Progress this document as is, may be add statement that deta= il ASM procedure would be out of scope for this document & it is going = to be covered in next document. 
  • Lets meet in Singa= pore, and come up with overall framework to be covered in new document &= ; publish new with more detail . 

Since this document has already passed many stages, adding = too much extra text is going to bring it back to start :) . 

Mankamana 

On Oct 30, 2019, at 12:05 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 01:34:30PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote= :
Hi

What already is in the document works for me, allowing any PIM J/P,
regardless of ASM or SSM.

Describing the message encoding options is not the same
as specifying a protocol. Its like PIM-SM message format section
without the sections describing the protocol state machinery.

You are suggesting that it talks about= high
level scenarios though, right?

In the past we called this just "protocols/protocol-options",
not "high-levels cenarios", but i take whatever the hip new term<= br class=3D""> is to ensure implementers and operators can develop and deploy
working solutions.

 - SSM: PIM-SSM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping<= br class=3D"">
 - ASM:
   - PIM-SSM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString m= apping
     + flooding of active (S,G)
   - PIM-SM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString ma= pping
     a) RPT only
     b) RPT + SPT switchover, no prune of RPT<= br class=3D"">      c) RPT + SPT switchover, prune of RPT

Btw: In the PIM-SSM solution for ASM, we do also have the issue
of getting the active (S,G) information to the BFIR that should
flood this information - in all cases where those BFIR are not
PIM FHR (connected to sources). Aka: must operate as RPs.

This stuff is all same or similar to MVPN issues, except that
i am sure we need a better standalone documentation of these
protocol details when we want to get PIM over BIER deployed
anywhere: Nobody who deploys MVPN (with BGP signaling) will use
PIM over BIER. SO its all going to be new/different customer spaces
(Enterprise etc.), and you can't tell them to just figure out
what they need to do by reading up on 20 years of MVPN documents.

If anyone goes for PIM over BIER instead of MVPN over BIER, then
only if its made simpler, and thats not achieved if customers
need to stitch together how to make it work from non-existing
documentation/protocol-descriptions.

two with scenarios. If only SSM scenar= io is discussed, then I think it
should be pointed out that the solution is not limited to SSM. But
perhaps both SSM and ASM section can be added?

Alternatively, and maybe better, keep this document mostly as it is,
and have a separate informational document that discusses use cases
for this, as well as other BIER overlay mechanisms?

I certainly would not call it use-cases. To me this is just
protocol specification for the different ASM options, and
we need to decide if we want to describe all of them because
that would encourage all of them. But in any case, i would not like
to see ONLY the PIM-SM options described with the flooding of active
(S,G) option.

My proposal was to keep this document to:

I) Message encoding (supporting all possible PIM-(S)SM message options)
II) Describing how to do SSM service

Then another document could add description of the options for the
ASM service as listed above.

Or delay the document further to add all the ASM options into this
document.

Cheers
   toerless

Stig

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:19 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

Well... how would you like to see ASM being done in this document ?
RPT+SPT or what you proposed in a separate document ???

If we document the RPT+SPT approach in this document, nobody will
implement the newer/better solution. We know that from experience
(whatever the worst solution to a problem is, thats what the industry
uses).

Cheers
   Toerless

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:34:53PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote:
Hi

While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up=
to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned,=
it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope.<= br class=3D"">
Stig


On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <
hooman.bidgoli@nokia= .com> wrote:

Adding the working group as well, inli= ne HB2>

Regards

Hooman


-----Original Message-----
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@c= s.fau.de>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM
To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/=

On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia -
CA/Ottawa) wrote:
HB> The original idea was this be a= generic procedure to tunnel pim
joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or<= br class=3D""> SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this
mechanism.
HB> that said if we feel we should = specifically say this is SSM, I can
add a sentence.

The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document<= br class=3D""> to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document=
describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it.

If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the
document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the=
controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the
document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think=
Stig and I would favor/suggest.

HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should ad= d
the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also?

HB> With regards to ECMP. We really= left this open to the
implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of<= br class=3D""> an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be
forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should be open.
HB> one implementation can decide t= he lower IP while the other would
HB> multihome base on (S,G)

Then the document should add a statement like this:
(using BFR or BBR terminology as you please).

This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are
redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one=
BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards different set of BFER.

HB2> ok I will add the following text.

If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to<= br class=3D""> a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP.


   - It would be helpfu= ll to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID
     for the choosen FHR would be learned from the= IGP BIER extension
     as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension do= cs (the two
     references are already in the doc but not use= d at all).

HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER boundary=
router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP
extensions.

Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together.=

I guess the idea is something like this:

HB2> have you looked at the appendix  A? it explains how to find th= e EBBR
(aka BFIR)

1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the
source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate today. Right ?

2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from
itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the
BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ?

The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more
than one BFIR because of ECMP:

a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path.
  whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then=
  you may end up picking a wrong BFIR.

HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling<= br class=3D""> and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will
note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the=
traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward.

  Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would nee= d
  instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BF= ER).

  To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can = be
  done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by   doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface met= rics
  swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any   IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though= its
  equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wan= ts
  to write as long as there is no big customer business case aski= ng
  for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is= too
  late.

  Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how   to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all typ= e
  of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs.

b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER
  can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which its= elf
  has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER.
  If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID   combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessar= y)
  multiple copies of the packet to be sent.

Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation
choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated
traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID
combinations.

Btw: the document says:

| Addr Family:   BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC776= 1]
| BIER Info:   IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id

RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google co= uldn't
find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document<= br class=3D""> will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO<= br class=3D""> its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encod= ing
type" typically. Aka:
IMHO something missing here in definition.

HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming=
PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to
| Addr Family:   pim address family as defined in [RFC7761]
| BIER Info:   IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id

   - The document shoul= d make statements about the setting of the
     entropy field in the BIER data packets of ind= ividual (S,G) flows.
     Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the= prevalence of few bis
     sources sending traffic for many SSM channels= , i think the entropy
     should be calculated from both S and G (not o= nly from S). Also,
     if there is no complete ECMP in the network, = multiple FHR
     will potentially send the same traffic, and t= hen that should
     flow as much as possible across different pat= hs (so as not
     to overload a single link).

     E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) = % 20
     might be a good recommendation for the entrop= y.

HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. It=
is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this
should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also.

This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field.
I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our so= lution
description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators.

   2. The document ment= ions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is
      undefined in any standards track RFC. I= guess it meant to say ASM,
      but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bid= ir-PIM.

      If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i= think there is
      the additional dependency of figuring o= ut where RP information
      comes from. Assuming they are manually = configured consistently
      is not a good expectation. Most PIM dom= ains use either some old
Cisco
      pr= oporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work
      through this solution unless we add a s= olution to support
      flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I th= ink that might have
      been the idea of defining the term BFT = in the document, but
      that term is not used.

      - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the= LHR, i do not like the
resulting
      so= lution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover
      signaling and tracking of both (S,G) an= d (*,G) LHR. I would
      be a lot more a fan of simply reusing R= FC8364 and just use the
      BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) act= ive messages to all LHR.


HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working.

Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to<= br class=3D""> make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN<= br class=3D""> controller that can automate configuration.

HB> That said I have no issue remov= ing PIM-SM from the draft and make it
just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out
previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune<= br class=3D""> etc..

Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can<= br class=3D""> potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide
later on an ASM solution.

Cheers
   Toerless

      If= you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for
      SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM&#= 43;(S,G)-active-signaling
      later.

  The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to = use
  BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As op= posed
  to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be<= br class=3D"">   written down.

  The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we
  reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signalin= g
  for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when = we went
  through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Origina= l
multicast
  VPN Default/Data-MDP used = PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost
  duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP= or
PORT
  solve this issue.

  Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be = via
PORT.
  The PORT messaged can be o= ver unicast or BIER based on the answer to
  above question.

  If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do n= ot
  need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution ev= en
  though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior soluti= ons,
  then please write at least a section about the DiffServ require= ments,
  aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for j= oin/prune get
  appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (= there
  are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP).

Cheers
   Toerless

On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote:
This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per
request and consensus @ IETF 102 ???

--- tony


--
---
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


______________________________________= _________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

--
---
tte@cs.fau.de

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--_000_06D97319D8894E0B9BA9A463254F31E0ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Oct 30 14:51:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C8B12011C for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bXfhogbPtsnT for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEAB21200CC for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id z22so3072537edr.13 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:51:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=venaas-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zPgIVw/G2BqYA/B7Me7M8XKFxnzU/RxRVzzbJozVH5s=; b=u2Ld9Y86DlG6nwLQnC2/lczkH/ybDy+b5F2hbACI1XsmeI0vCfGxPfweMRjBmhWUDE IBPPrqmVnAcL9X81pV62DGv4Ap+G6vLCNrggPPjhc32LBMOFkLNUuhKjFdn7I9/Oqx5Y aXkkvT8jBFh/RnGytNTE7pkd1vvPaM4kvnMON0BsY2QlacJXqxXUK3LOiV5DDvQrZzxH yUiBTx5E4jrMWrxekCrMz1oH5fRt2tkdMVZO/XeshUAkIbGLaaxJ39emBUIaI/IZw+I3 UVlcKecaHRyqfO1KfclqRGk5ZM1+e8+b8okDiiu2si8sOJMPiPjpIVE/JSYgDruMsQqq BCvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zPgIVw/G2BqYA/B7Me7M8XKFxnzU/RxRVzzbJozVH5s=; b=ULjtpu812V0kL9Klb94iFfiHE5TM+T1BOvD/JDc0T8ASXyUNRvMFu4S7UdPrD0Pijp jtKEaSb1B+OVK5Wp9dKGH7pkDRew6r/Zc/CpPH97okeowIyRbB7TMtJ+VwJ6TLSGgDsp QRwkrOqCB8gpR4+p6Gf5pP+Iiu1Knm7C7TH5GR8vKrV9c3thpI3ofi1y11oO2RY5pZfv /FtywzAt7Y5jAT38HAhCB8XLX4UNSOKupCZQyorOmeXIweU8CMTq+ziV15HRJnJzOycA h2VKghneE6VCuuM+shhneRko7ldVJr4V+OPqrcQzq6Gs9rWLkoIB0xyH66slwvTDeQBm Fqxw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXygfYqzFRB0QLBo4vpMbAJNkY5/flTNdnLg/mdPcPxjRvuwMbF XoTCsbLoBg730w+92nJK8a69W9lmVwiOm8bj1UO/eA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzQZPSjodGbHgS7ivsuRBfp0YTm0tWXmkj04Tm6drVMIAh6KONJc0ADjQI60PhuTXlkstqOJ07qX7/XqAB6sBg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1816:: with SMTP id g22mr2270211edy.76.1572472281160; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:51:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191024152401.GA24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191028080131.GC24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191029201944.GE24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20191030070546.GF24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20191030070546.GF24806@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stig Venaas Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:51:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: BIER WG , "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:51:27 -0000 Hi Toerless, please see inline. On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 12:05 AM Toerless Eckert wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 01:34:30PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: > > Hi > > > > What already is in the document works for me, allowing any PIM J/P, > > regardless of ASM or SSM. > > Describing the message encoding options is not the same > as specifying a protocol. Its like PIM-SM message format section > without the sections describing the protocol state machinery. I agree we need to specify the protocol in here. I mentioned some missing parts in my review. It needs to state that there are no pim hellos and what the expected capabilities are, since not announced by hello. Also needs to mention that explicit tracking is done, and no asserts. > > You are suggesting that it talks about high > > level scenarios though, right? > > In the past we called this just "protocols/protocol-options", > not "high-levels cenarios", but i take whatever the hip new term > is to ensure implementers and operators can develop and deploy > working solutions. I assumed you meant at a high level, because I don't see how we need to explain SSM/ASM in the protocol. > - SSM: PIM-SSM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping Yes, it needs to state that explicit tracking is done. > - ASM: > - PIM-SSM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping > + flooding of active (S,G) This doesn't change the pim protocol. For ASM you would still send PIM registers. > - PIM-SM with explicit neighbor tracking+BitString mapping > a) RPT only > b) RPT + SPT switchover, no prune of RPT > c) RPT + SPT switchover, prune of RPT This should be as today. Option a or c, depending on whether last-hop switches to SPT. > Btw: In the PIM-SSM solution for ASM, we do also have the issue > of getting the active (S,G) information to the BFIR that should > flood this information - in all cases where those BFIR are not > PIM FHR (connected to sources). Aka: must operate as RPs. FHR sends registers as today. RP can be located anywhere. Registers are sent as unicast and require no special handling. > This stuff is all same or similar to MVPN issues, except that I don't see how this is similar to MVPN. It is more like treating a BIER domain as a LAN from PIM perspective. Except explicit tracking and no asserts on the LAN. This "BIER LAN" can be in the middle of some PIM domain, without changing how PIM operates (except on that BIER LAN). One issue worth pointing out though, is that we haven't defined how to do BSR over BIER, but static RP configuration would work fine. Also embedded-RP for IPv6. Stig > i am sure we need a better standalone documentation of these > protocol details when we want to get PIM over BIER deployed > anywhere: Nobody who deploys MVPN (with BGP signaling) will use > PIM over BIER. SO its all going to be new/different customer spaces > (Enterprise etc.), and you can't tell them to just figure out > what they need to do by reading up on 20 years of MVPN documents. > > If anyone goes for PIM over BIER instead of MVPN over BIER, then > only if its made simpler, and thats not achieved if customers > need to stitch together how to make it work from non-existing > documentation/protocol-descriptions. > > > two with scenarios. If only SSM scenario is discussed, then I think it > > should be pointed out that the solution is not limited to SSM. But > > perhaps both SSM and ASM section can be added? > > > > Alternatively, and maybe better, keep this document mostly as it is, > > and have a separate informational document that discusses use cases > > for this, as well as other BIER overlay mechanisms? > > I certainly would not call it use-cases. To me this is just > protocol specification for the different ASM options, and > we need to decide if we want to describe all of them because > that would encourage all of them. But in any case, i would not like > to see ONLY the PIM-SM options described with the flooding of active > (S,G) option. > > My proposal was to keep this document to: > > I) Message encoding (supporting all possible PIM-(S)SM message options) > II) Describing how to do SSM service > > Then another document could add description of the options for the > ASM service as listed above. > > Or delay the document further to add all the ASM options into this > document. > > Cheers > toerless > > > Stig > > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:19 PM Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > > Well... how would you like to see ASM being done in this document ? > > > RPT+SPT or what you proposed in a separate document ??? > > > > > > If we document the RPT+SPT approach in this document, nobody will > > > implement the newer/better solution. We know that from experience > > > (whatever the worst solution to a problem is, thats what the industry > > > uses). > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:34:53PM -0700, Stig Venaas wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > While we all know SSM simplifies things, I see no reason to restrict this > > > > solution to SSM. Whether to implement or deploy only the SSM solution is up > > > > to vendors or operators, but I see no reason to prohibit ASM. As mentioned, > > > > it works just fine with static RP. It would be a shame to limit the scope. > > > > > > > > Stig > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 20:27 Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > > > > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Adding the working group as well, inline HB2> > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Hooman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Toerless Eckert > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 4:02 AM > > > > > To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 08:34:01PM +0000, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - > > > > > CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > > > > > HB> The original idea was this be a generic procedure to tunnel pim > > > > > joins and prunes through a BIER domain. It didn't really care about SSM or > > > > > SM. As an example our testing showed that static RP worked with this > > > > > mechanism. > > > > > > HB> that said if we feel we should specifically say this is SSM, I can > > > > > add a sentence. > > > > > > > > > > The main issue is whether we want the document to be a standalone document > > > > > to define a working, implementable and interoperable solution, or if this > > > > > should just be some protocol encodings, and there would be another document > > > > > describing how to build a working interoperable solution from it. > > > > > > > > > > If we stick we SSM, we have the smallest/easiest solution, and the > > > > > document could be standalone. As soon as we think about ASM we get into the > > > > > controversy between using the way PIM-SM/ASM is done in MVPN (which the > > > > > document is currently hinting at) and newer mechanisms such as what i think > > > > > Stig and I would favor/suggest. > > > > > > > > > > HB2> sure as I mentioned no issue I will say this is SSM only. Should add > > > > > the static RP case? Or do we want that in separate draft also? > > > > > > > > > > > HB> With regards to ECMP. We really left this open to the > > > > > implementation. As an example when a route request is done for a source of > > > > > an pim join, internal algorithms can decide which BFER it should be > > > > > forwarded to. To us this like any other ECMP implementation and it should > > > > > be open. > > > > > > HB> one implementation can decide the lower IP while the other would > > > > > > HB> multihome base on (S,G) > > > > > > > > > > Then the document should add a statement like this: > > > > > (using BFR or BBR terminology as you please). > > > > > > > > > > This document does not specify mechanisms for different BFER to select a > > > > > single BFIR for the same multicast traffic flow. When sources are > > > > > redundantly attached via more than one BFIR, this can lead to more than one > > > > > BFIR forwarding the same multicast traffic into the BIER domain - towards > > > > > different set of BFER. > > > > > > > > > > HB2> ok I will add the following text. > > > > > > > > > > If the lookup for source results into multiple EBBRs, then the algorithm > > > > > should ensure that all signaling for a particular (C-S, C-G) is forward to > > > > > a single EBBR. How the this selection is done is application specific. As > > > > > an example it can be round robin or smallest EBBR IP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - It would be helpfull to have a sentence explaining that the BFR-ID > > > > > > for the choosen FHR would be learned from the IGP BIER extension > > > > > > as defined in the ISIS/OSPF BIER extension docs (the two > > > > > > references are already in the doc but not used at all). > > > > > > > > > > > > HB> not sure if I understand. We defined an EBBR as egress BIER boundary > > > > > router. Obviously a BIER router is bound by RFC 8279 and the IGP/BGP > > > > > extensions. > > > > > > > > > > Sure. There is just no text explaining how to stitch these things together. > > > > > > > > > > I guess the idea is something like this: > > > > > > > > > > HB2> have you looked at the appendix A? it explains how to find the EBBR > > > > > (aka BFIR) > > > > > > > > > > 1. the BFER (iBBR) in question will look at the SPF from itself to the > > > > > source of the multicast flow because this is what IGP SPF would calculate > > > > > today. Right ? > > > > > > > > > > 2. It would then along the path try to find the first router (from > > > > > itself) that is announcing a BIER extension. From that it learns the > > > > > BFR-ID to send the join to. Right ? > > > > > > > > > > The problems i can think of apart from the aforementioned case of more > > > > > than one BFIR because of ECMP: > > > > > > > > > > a) Plotting a path from the BFER towards the source is reverse-path. > > > > > whenever you have e.g.: a network with asymmetric metrics, then > > > > > you may end up picking a wrong BFIR. > > > > > > > > > > HB2> not really the EBBR tracks which IBBR is sending the pim signaling > > > > > and stores the information in a table format as per section 3.3. If ECMP > > > > > algorithm forward the (C-S, C-G) to a specific EBBR then that EBBR will > > > > > note the BFR-ID of the IBBR and for that (C-S, C-G) it will always send the > > > > > traffic back to that particular IBBR so even if the network is asymmetric > > > > > EBBR knows how to forward the packet backward. > > > > > > > > > > Aka: Correctly speaking, rule 1 is incorrect, and you would need > > > > > instead to trace the path from the source towards ourselves (BFER). > > > > > > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, this reverse-path calculation can be > > > > > done at the same cost as standard SPF calculation (simply by > > > > > doing SPF calculation in a topology with all link interface metrics > > > > > swapped), but for more than 20 years now i have not seen any > > > > > IGP SPF implementation actually doing this. because even though its > > > > > equally fast, it is still additional code that no developer wants > > > > > to write as long as there is no big customer business case asking > > > > > for it. And customers do not understand the problem until it is too > > > > > late. > > > > > > > > > > Aka: unless there is an actually normative explanation of how > > > > > to calculate the BFIR, we're again going to end up with all type > > > > > of crappy half-hearted implementations in IGPs. > > > > > > > > > > b) A BFR may have multiple BFIR-ID in different subdomains. The BFER > > > > > can only bick a SD/BFR-ID combination for the BFIR in which itself > > > > > has a BFR-ID, so that the BFER can actually address the BFER. > > > > > > > > > > If this matching results in more than one feasible SD/BFIR-ID > > > > > combination, then we've again got the potential for (unnecessary) > > > > > multiple copies of the packet to be sent. > > > > > > > > > > Aka: would be good to have explanatory text about the implementation > > > > > choice issues because otherwise we likely end up with non-interoperating > > > > > implementations, or surprises by the amount of unnecessarily duplicated > > > > > traffic with multiple BFIR, asymmetric path or multiple SD/BFR-ID > > > > > combinations. > > > > > > > > > > Btw: the document says: > > > > > > > > > > | Addr Family: BIER prefix address family as defined in [RFC7761] > > > > > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > > > > > > > > RFC7761 does not define a "BIER prefix address family". Google couldn't > > > > > find me another document where this term is used, so i think THIS document > > > > > will end up defining a PPIM BIER prefix address family, and right now IMHO > > > > > its too terse. Should have some ascii picture. There is also an "encoding > > > > > type" typically. Aka: > > > > > IMHO something missing here in definition. > > > > > > > > > > HB2> ok Addr family is really the PIM address family, it is the incoming > > > > > PIM address family that we are signaling over BIER. I will change it to > > > > > | Addr Family: pim address family as defined in [RFC7761] > > > > > | BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (ipv4 or ipv6), SD, bfr-id > > > > > > > > > > > - The document should make statements about the setting of the > > > > > > entropy field in the BIER data packets of individual (S,G) flows. > > > > > > Given the problem of using ECMP paths and the prevalence of few bis > > > > > > sources sending traffic for many SSM channels, i think the entropy > > > > > > should be calculated from both S and G (not only from S). Also, > > > > > > if there is no complete ECMP in the network, multiple FHR > > > > > > will potentially send the same traffic, and then that should > > > > > > flow as much as possible across different paths (so as not > > > > > > to overload a single link). > > > > > > > > > > > > E.g.: something like (S XOR G XOR router-id) % 20 > > > > > > might be a good recommendation for the entropy. > > > > > > > > > > > > HB> again as per above explanation we feel ECMP is beyond this draft. It > > > > > is really a bier transport problem and any other draft addressing this > > > > > should be taken into consideration for PIM signaling also. > > > > > > > > > > This was primarily about the setting of the entropy field. > > > > > I take your point that e.g.: rfc8556 doesn't mention entropy at all, but > > > > > that doesn't make both documents equally "good", but rathr our solution > > > > > description equally incomplete and subject to surprises for operators. > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The document mentions PIM-ASM, which is a term that AFAIK is > > > > > > undefined in any standards track RFC. I guess it meant to say ASM, > > > > > > but that could be PIM-SM, PIM-DM or Bidir-PIM. > > > > > > > > > > > > If its meant to describe PIM-SM, then i think there is > > > > > > the additional dependency of figuring out where RP information > > > > > > comes from. Assuming they are manually configured consistently > > > > > > is not a good expectation. Most PIM domains use either some old > > > > > Cisco > > > > > > proporietary protocol, or BSR. Neither of these will work > > > > > > through this solution unless we add a solution to support > > > > > > flooding to all BFER that run PIM. I think that might have > > > > > > been the idea of defining the term BFT in the document, but > > > > > > that term is not used. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Even if we knew the PIM-SM RPs on the LHR, i do not like the > > > > > resulting > > > > > > solution, because we would still require the RPT/SPT switchover > > > > > > signaling and tracking of both (S,G) and (*,G) LHR. I would > > > > > > be a lot more a fan of simply reusing RFC8364 and just use the > > > > > > BIER BFT to flood appropriate (S,G) active messages to all LHR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HB> so we have tried this solution with static RP and it is working. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this was not a concern about not working, but about not being able to > > > > > make the solution look attractive to any operator who does not have an SDN > > > > > controller that can automate configuration. > > > > > > > > > > > HB> That said I have no issue removing PIM-SM from the draft and make it > > > > > just SSM base and reintroduce SM in later draft, but as I pointed out > > > > > previously we tried to keep the draft general to signal any pim join prune > > > > > etc.. > > > > > > > > > > Definitely think its good to see that the signaling this draft defines can > > > > > potentially support all PIM messages, but yes, i would prefer to decide > > > > > later on an ASM solution. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > If you ask me, it would be good enough to finalize the doc for > > > > > > SSM and do a followup for ASM via SSM+(S,G)-active-signaling > > > > > > later. > > > > > > > > > > > > The other high level question is: What are the good reasons to use > > > > > > BIER to unicast the join/prune messages from LHR to FHR ? As opposed > > > > > > to use unicast messages. If there are benefits, they should be > > > > > > written down. > > > > > > > > > > > > The related (but really independent) concern is: SHould we > > > > > > reintroduce NOW a scheme that uses unreliable datagram signaling > > > > > > for join/prune (across a potentially multi-hop WAN path), when we went > > > > > > through the exercise and concluded we need better: Aka: Original > > > > > multicast > > > > > > VPN Default/Data-MDP used PIM (datagrams) and those packets got lost > > > > > > duing burst-collisions (such as reconvergence events etc.). BGP or > > > > > PORT > > > > > > solve this issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Aka: I would suggest to say the join/prune signaling should be via > > > > > PORT. > > > > > > The PORT messaged can be over unicast or BIER based on the answer to > > > > > > above question. > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is a (misguided ;-) mayority of folks thinking we do not > > > > > > need reliable join/prune signaling across this BIER solution even > > > > > > though we've recognized that need long time ago in prior solutions, > > > > > > then please write at least a section about the DiffServ requirements, > > > > > > aka: making sure these "signaling" BIER packets for join/prune get > > > > > > appropriate MPLS/EXP or DSCP in their according encap headers (there > > > > > > are standards for signaling EXP/DSCP). > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:35:55PM +0000, Antoni Przygienda wrote: > > > > > > > This thread initiates 2 weeks WG LC on > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ per > > > > > request and consensus @ IETF 102 ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > --- > > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BIER mailing list > > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Oct 30 18:52:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D826612008B; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 18:52:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <157248676280.32527.9428052173391284481@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 18:52:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-06.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:52:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BGP Link-State extensions for BIER Authors : Ran Chen Zheng Zhang Vengada Prasad Govindan IJsbrand Wijnands Filename : draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-06.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2019-10-30 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header contains a bitstring in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that correspond to those routers in the BIER header. This document specifies extensions to the BGP Link-state address- family in order to advertise BIER information. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <157254638675.30463.5661005491612348602@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:26:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-php-04.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:26:27 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER Penultimate Hop Popping Author : Zhaohui Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-php-04.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2019-10-31 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) can be used as provider tunnel for Multicast Virtual Private Network (MVPN) [RFC6514], Global Table Multicast [RFC7716] or Ethernet Virtual Private Network (EVPN) [RFC7432]. It is possible that not all routers in the provider network support BIER and there are various methods to handle BIER incapable transit routers. However those methods assume the MVPN/ EVPN Provider Edges (PEs) are BIER capable. This document specifies a method to allow BIER incapable routers to act as MVPN/EVPN PEs with BIER as the transport, by having the upstream BIER Forwarding Router (BFR) that is connected directly or indirectly via a tunnel to a BIER incapable PE remove the BIER header and send the payload to the PE. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-php/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-php-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-php-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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definitions=main-1910310182 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:31:15 -0000 --_000_DM5PR05MB354884B0AA3AAF6CEC7C0415D4630DM5PR05MB3548namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSmluZ3JvbmcsDQoNCkkgc3VibWl0dGVkIC0wNCByZXZpc2lvbiB0byB0YWtlIGNhcmUgb2Yg eW91ciB0d28gY29tbWVudHM6DQoNCg0KMS4gICAgICAgQ2xhcmlmeSB0aGF0IG5vbi1CSUVSIGVk Z2Ugcm91dGVyIHdpbGwgbm90IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gcGFydGljaXBhdGUgaW4gQklFUiBPQU0gcHJv Y2VkdXJlcw0KDQoyLiAgICAgICBSZXBsYWNlZCBFVlBOLW92ZXJsYXkgc2NlbmFyaW8gd2l0aCBJ UHY0L3Y2IG11bHRpY2FzdCB0aGF0IGRvZXMgbm90IG5lZWQgUlBGLiBUaGF0IHNob3VsZCBjb3Zl ciBFVlBOLW92ZXJsYXkgc2NlbmFyaW8gYXMgd2VsbCAoSeKAmWxsIGFkZCBhbiBvcHRpb24gdG8g 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[Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ping-06.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 02:21:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER Ping and Trace Authors : Nagendra Kumar Carlos Pignataro Nobo Akiya Lianshu Zheng Mach Chen Greg Mirsky Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ping-06.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2019-10-31 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that correspond to those routers in the BIER header. This document describes the mechanism and basic BIER OAM packet format that can be used to perform failure detection and isolation on BIER data plane. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ping/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-ping-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-ping-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-ping-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/