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From nobody Wed Mar  4 13:35:02 2020
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Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BIER Use Cases
        Authors         : Nagendra Kumar
                          Rajiv Asati
                          Mach(Guoyi) Chen
                          Xiaohu Xu
                          Andrew Dolganow
                          Tony Przygienda
                          Arkadiy Gulko
                          Dom Robinson
                          Vishal Arya
                          Caitlin Bestler
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-11.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2020-03-04

Abstract:
   Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that
   provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without
   requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per-
   flow state.  BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building
   protocol for its operation.  A multicast data packet enters a BIER
   domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the
   BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs).
   The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet.  The BIER header
   contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER
   to forward the packet to.  The set of BFERs to which the multicast
   packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that
   correspond to those routers in the BIER header.

   This document describes some of the use cases for BIER.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>
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From nobody Fri Mar  6 11:35:19 2020
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Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-mld-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : BIER Ingress Multicast Flow Overlay using Multicast Listener Discovery Protocols
        Authors         : Pierre Pfister
                          IJsbrand Wijnands
                          Stig Venaas
                          Cui(Linda) Wang
                          Zheng(Sandy) Zhang
                          Markus Stenberg
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-mld-04.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2020-03-06

Abstract:
   This document specifies the ingress part of a multicast flow overlay
   for BIER networks.  Using existing multicast listener discovery
   protocols, it enables multicast membership information sharing from
   egress routers, acting as listeners, toward ingress routers, acting
   as queriers.  Ingress routers keep per-egress-router state, used to
   construct the BIER bit mask associated with IP multicast packets
   entering the BIER domain.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mld/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-mld-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-mld-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-mld-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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From nobody Mon Mar  9 16:13:06 2020
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Tree Engineering for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER-TE)
        Authors         : Toerless Eckert
                          Gregory Cauchie
                          Michael Menth
	Filename        : draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-07.txt
	Pages           : 45
	Date            : 2020-03-09

Abstract:
   This memo introduces per-packet stateless strict and loose path
   steered replication and forwarding for Bit Index Explicit Replication
   packets (RFC8279).  This is called BIER Tree Engineering (BIER-TE).
   BIER-TE can be used as a path steering mechanism in future Traffic
   Engineering solutions for BIER (BIER-TE).

   BIER-TE leverages RFC8279 and extends it with a new semantic for bits
   in the bitstring.  BIER-TE can leverage BIER forwarding engines with
   little or no changes.

   In BIER, the BitPositions (BP) of the packets bitstring indicate BIER
   Forwarding Egress Routers (BFER), and hop-by-hop forwarding uses a
   Routing Underlay such as an IGP.

   In BIER-TE, BitPositions indicate adjacencies.  The BIFT of each BFR
   are only populated with BPs that are adjacent to the BFR in the BIER-
   TE topology.  The BIER-TE topology can consist of layer 2 or remote
   (routed) adjacencies.  The BFR then replicates and forwards BIER
   packets to those adjacencies.  This results in the aforementioned
   strict and loose path steering and replications.

   BIER-TE can co-exist with BIER forwarding in the same domain, for
   example by using separate BIER sub-domains.  In the absence of routed
   adjacencies, BIER-TE does not require a BIER routing underlay, and
   can then be operated without requiring an Interior Gateway Routing
   protocol (IGP).

   BIER-TE operates without explicit in-network tree-state and carries
   the multicast distribution tree in the packet header.  It can
   therefore be a good fit to support multicast path steering in Segment
   Routing (SR) networks.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-te-arch-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: "bier-chairs@ietf.org" <bier-chairs@ietf.org>
CC: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "bier-ads@ietf.org" <bier-ads@ietf.org>, "draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org" <draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
Thread-Index: AdXRi+HwR/otAFegSpCm1eKVbhIXMQk+DmBg
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 02:36:50 +0000
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References: <e614ca643ade44f8baf1af98e7f10fa1@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
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Dear WG Chairs,

We've just updated a new revision of bier-ipv6-encapsulation. Main updates:
1. Use the Next Header value 143 for Ethernet packet in IP/IPv6.
2. Update the "security consideration" section. further includes:
2.1 Explain the BIER domain and BIER sub-domain that may spanning multiple =
ASes operated by a single operator.
2.2 Simply refer the security considerations of Inter-domain deployment to =
RFC8296, and remove the section 5.2 "Inter-domain deployment".
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation/
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-06

The first update about Next Header value 143 is based on the significant pr=
ogress of Native IPv6 solution that is happening in industry, below for ref=
erence:
SRv6 PGM (in its LC) has applied the Proto value 143 for Ethernet packet in=
 IP/IPv6:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=
/

The second update is based on the Tony's comment before IETF106 about secur=
ity deployment, and suggestion from Dirk recently.
We hope this could address the concerns about security deployment of BIERv6=
, as well as other comments received on IETF106:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/1DP5hGPrPsiC3OE5skm2yaN6tQM/

Again, we believe this draft is stable and ready for adoption, and the BIER=
 WG charter item 7 "BIER natively in IPv6" should advance.
Thank you very much for consideration!

Best Regards,
Jingrong


From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xiejingrong (Jingron=
g)
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 9:27 AM
To: bier-chairs@ietf.org
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>; bier-ads@ietf.org; draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsu=
lation@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] Request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulati=
on-05

Dear WG Chairs:

We would like to request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulat=
ion-05.
We've presented this proposal for about two years and it had led to the wri=
ting and adoption of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements.
We've addressed the comments received in the past 2 years.
We've seen lots of interest on the draft.
We believe it is stable and ready for adoption.
We think the charter item 7 "BIER natively in IPv6" should advance.

Thanks for consideration.

BTW:
I will be in spring festival for the coming 7 days but I can read the list =
anytime.
Happy spring festival to those who have.

Jingrong (on behalf of the authors and contributors)


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fy-trim:punctuation">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dear WG=
 Chairs,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">We've j=
ust updated a new revision of bier-ipv6-encapsulation. Main updates:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">1. Use =
the Next Header value 143 for Ethernet packet in IP/IPv6.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">2. Upda=
te the &#8220;security consideration&#8221; section. further includes:<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">2.1 Exp=
lain the BIER domain and BIER sub-domain that may spanning multiple ASes op=
erated by a single operator.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">2.2 Sim=
ply refer the security considerations of Inter-domain deployment to RFC8296=
, and remove the section 5.2 &#8220;Inter-domain deployment&#8221;.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation/">https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-0=
6">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-06=
</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The fir=
st update about Next Header value 143 is based on the significant progress =
of Native IPv6 solution that is happening in industry, below for reference:=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">SRv6 PG=
M (in its LC) has applied the Proto value 143 for Ethernet packet in IP/IPv=
6:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-program=
ming/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-prog=
ramming/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The sec=
ond update is based on the Tony&#8217;s comment before IETF106 about securi=
ty deployment, and suggestion from Dirk recently.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">We hope=
 this could address the concerns about security deployment of BIERv6, as we=
ll as other comments received on IETF106:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><a href=
=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/1DP5hGPrPsiC3OE5skm2yaN6tQM/=
">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/1DP5hGPrPsiC3OE5skm2yaN6tQM/</=
a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Again, =
we believe this draft is stable and ready for adoption, and the BIER WG cha=
rter item 7 &quot;BIER natively in IPv6&quot; should advance.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thank y=
ou very much for consideration!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Best Re=
gards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jingron=
g<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xiejingrong (Jingrong)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 23, 2020 9:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> bier-chairs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> BIER WG &lt;bier@ietf.org&gt;; bier-ads@ietf.org; draft-xie-bier=
-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bier] Request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-enca=
psulation-05<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear WG Chairs:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We would like to request an ado=
ption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We've presented this proposal f=
or about two years and it had led to the writing and adoption of draft-ietf=
-bier-ipv6-requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We've addressed the comments re=
ceived in the past 2 years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We've seen lots of interest on =
the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We believe it is stable and rea=
dy for adoption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We think the charter item 7 &qu=
ot;BIER natively in IPv6&quot; should advance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks for consideration.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">BTW: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I will be in spring festival fo=
r the coming 7 days but I can read the list anytime.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Happy spring festival to those =
who have.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong (on behalf of the auth=
ors and contributors)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
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Thread-Topic: Re:Request an adoption call ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Request an adoption call ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
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dj4=


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In-Reply-To: <202003102210042651244@zte.com.cn>
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 07:43:34 -0700
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To: "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Cc: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, bier-ads@ietf.org,  draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/TUERo9SFWd05rFmJtq9hw0zWP4o>
Subject: Re: [Bier] Request an adoption call ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
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I will try to get on call with Greg this week if we manage to find the time
and we'll look @ the minutes/new version of draft and direct further ...

thanks

--- tony

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 7:10 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi Jingrong,
>
>
> Sorry, I don't know you can't remember that there is consensus with the
> irrelevance between BIER and SRv6.
>
> SRv6 doesn't exist in BIER charter at all. So I mention it again for
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation.
>
>
> The homenet is one of the deployment of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
> ).
>
> About the draft process, I believe that chair control the WG process
> reasonably.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandy
>
>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Xiejingrong(Jingrong) <xiejingrong@=
huawei.com>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*bier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@i=
etf.org>;bier@ietf.org <
> bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ietf.org <bier-ads@ietf.org>;
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org <
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org>;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8810=E6=97=A5 18:15
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**RE: Re:Request an adoption call
> ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05*
>
> Dear Sandy,
>
>
>
> I suppose I have addressed all the comments received on the
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, and that=E2=80=99s the main point in m=
y request
> of adoption in Jan 2020 and today.
>
> Please point out what=E2=80=99s the comments that haven=E2=80=99t address=
ed.
>
>
>
> Thanks for remind me the IETF105 meeting minutes.
>
> I don=E2=80=99t know why that said thing =E2=80=9CTake it to list=E2=80=
=9D didn=E2=80=99t happen after 7
> months !
>
> Is it assumed that some questions are not addressed or not clear ---- for
> example, security considerations? Or the said =E2=80=9CPrimary intended u=
se is
> HOMENET=E2=80=9D does not explicitly declared in the document ?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Jingrong
>
>
>
> *From:* zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 4:59 PM
> *To:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; bier-ads@ietf.org;
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re:Request an adoption call
> ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
>
>
>
> Hi Jingrong,
>
>
>
> Before being in adoption call, you may need to solve all the question
> about (draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation) at first (in meeting and
> mailing list).
>
> Its a pit that you didn't konw the consensus withdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6
> even if you were on BIER WG bluesheet in IETF105# (
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/105/bluesheets/bluesheets-105-bier-20190=
7241330-00.pdf
> ).
>
> Please have a look at the minutes again (
> https://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/minutes?item=3Dminutes-105-bier-01.html).
>
> I think it's a baseline that the draft has gotten consensus in WG before
> it's taken to the adoption list.
>
>
>
> BTW: You may have misunderstanding about WG secretary.
>
> AFAIK, WG secretary just does WG routine work, and there is no
> relationship with technology discussion and routine work.
>
> Let's back to the technology discussion. Thanks!
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Xiejingrong(Jingrong) <xiejingrong@=
huawei.com>
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;
>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*bier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@i=
etf.org>;bier@ietf.org <
> bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ietf.org <bier-ads@ietf.org>;
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org <
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org>;
>
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8810=E6=97=A5 15:57
>
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: Re:Request an adoption call
> ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05*
>
> Dear Sandy,
>
>
>
> With all due respect, I am curious whether you speak as individual or WG
> secretary.
>
>
>
> More comments inline.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Jingrong
>
>
>
> *From:*zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn
> <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 2:57 PM
> *To:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; bier-ads@ietf.org;
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re:Request an adoption call on
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
>
>
>
> Hi Jingrong,
>
>
>
> I don't think this solution (draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation) has gotte=
n
> consensus in BIER working group.
>
> [XJR] I think an adoption call is to verify the existence of consensus,
> rather than reverse.
>
> However, there is another BIER IPv6 solution (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6)
> has gotten consensus in the WG.
>
> [XJR] This claim of consensus looks even more strange to me, as you are
> one author of this draft, and also the secretary of BIER WG. I believe on=
ly
> WG chairs or AD  can declare such  consensus.
>
> The latest presentation is in IETF105# and it has been in adoption list.
>
> BTW: I don't think there is straight relationship with BIER and SRv6.
> But draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 works well with SRv6 without any extra
> specification.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Xiejingrong(Jingrong) <xiejingrong@=
huawei.com>
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*bier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@i=
etf.org>;
>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ie=
tf.org <bier-ads@ietf.org>;
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org <
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org>;
>
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8810=E6=97=A510:37
>
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: Request an adoption call on draft-xie-b=
ier-ipv6-encapsulation-05*
>
> Dear WG Chairs,
>
>
>
> We've just updated a new revision of bier-ipv6-encapsulation. Main update=
s:
>
> 1. Use the Next Header value 143 for Ethernet packet in IP/IPv6.
>
> 2. Update the =E2=80=9Csecurity consideration=E2=80=9D section. further i=
ncludes:
>
> 2.1 Explain the BIER domain and BIER sub-domain that may spanning multipl=
e
> ASes operated by a single operator.
>
> 2.2 Simply refer the security considerations of Inter-domain deployment t=
o
> RFC8296, and remove the section 5.2 =E2=80=9CInter-domain deployment=E2=
=80=9D.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation/
>
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-06
>
>
>
> The first update about Next Header value 143 is based on the significant
> progress of Native IPv6 solution that is happening in industry, below for
> reference:
>
> SRv6 PGM (in its LC) has applied the Proto value 143 for Ethernet packet
> in IP/IPv6:
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi=
ng/
>
>
>
> The second update is based on the Tony=E2=80=99s comment before IETF106 a=
bout
> security deployment, and suggestion from Dirk recently.
>
> We hope this could address the concerns about security deployment of
> BIERv6, as well as other comments received on IETF106:
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/1DP5hGPrPsiC3OE5skm2yaN6tQM/
>
>
>
> Again, we believe this draft is stable and ready for adoption, and the
> BIER WG charter item 7 "BIER natively in IPv6" should advance.
>
> Thank you very much for consideration!
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jingrong
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org <bier-bounces@ietf.org>]*On
> Behalf Of *Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 23, 2020 9:27 AM
> *To:* bier-chairs@ietf.org
> *Cc:* BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ietf.org;
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Bier] Request an adoption call on
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
>
>
>
> Dear WG Chairs:
>
>
>
> We would like to request an adoption call on
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.
>
> We've presented this proposal for about two years and it had led to the
> writing and adoption of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements.
>
> We've addressed the comments received in the past 2 years.
>
> We've seen lots of interest on the draft.
>
> We believe it is stable and ready for adoption.
>
> We think the charter item 7 "BIER natively in IPv6" should advance.
>
>
>
> Thanks for consideration.
>
>
>
> BTW:
>
> I will be in spring festival for the coming 7 days but I can read the lis=
t
> anytime.
>
> Happy spring festival to those who have.
>
>
>
> Jingrong (on behalf of the authors and contributors)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I will try to get on call with Greg this week if we m=
anage to find the time and we&#39;ll look=C2=A0@ the minutes/new version of=
 draft and direct further ... <br></div><div><br></div><div>thanks <br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 7:10 AM &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p s=
tyle=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Hi Jingrong,</p><p style=3D"font-=
size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family=
:arial">Sorry, I don&#39;t know you can&#39;t remember that there is consen=
sus with the irrelevance between BIER and SRv6.=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"font-s=
ize:14px;font-family:arial">SRv6 doesn&#39;t exist in BIER charter at all.=
=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:arial;line-height:21px">So I mention it ag=
ain for=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"line-height:21px;font-family:Arial,sans-=
serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation<=
/span><span style=3D"font-family:arial;line-height:21px">.</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial;line-height:21px">=C2=A0</span></p><p style=3D"font-=
size:14px;font-family:arial"><span style=3D"font-family:arial;line-height:2=
1px"><br></span></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial;line-height:21px">The homenet is one of the deploym=
ent of BIERin6 (</span><span style=3D"line-height:21px;font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">draft-zhang-bier-bierin6</span>=
<span style=3D"font-family:arial;line-height:21px">).</span></p><p style=3D=
"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">About the draft process, I believe that =
chair control the WG process reasonably.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font=
-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thanks=
,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Sandy</p><p style=3D"fon=
t-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><div><div style=3D"display:block"><d=
iv style=3D"width:100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:rgb(22=
4,229,233);color:rgb(19,136,255);text-align:center">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=
=82=AE=E4=BB=B6</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7524484106133566031zwriteHistoryCo=
ntainer"><div><div style=3D"padding:8px;background-color:rgb(245,246,248)">=
<div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span>Xiejingrong=
(Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">=
xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=
=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span style=3D"display:inline">=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=
=8100007940;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A<=
/strong><span style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-c=
hairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span><span=
 style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">bier@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span><span style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mail=
to:bier-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:bier-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<=
/span><span style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:draft-xie-bier-ipv6-=
encapsulation@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation=
@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<=
/span></div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</strong><span>2020=
=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8810=E6=97=A5 18:15</span></div><div><strong>=E4=B8=BB =
=E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span><strong>RE: Re:Request an adoption call o=
ndraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05</strong></span></div></div><div><div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Dear Sandy=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(=
31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">I suppose I have addressed all the comments rece=
ived on the draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, and that=E2=80=99s the main =
point in my request of adoption
 in Jan 2020 and today.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Please point out what=E2=80=99s the commen=
ts that haven=E2=80=99t addressed.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks for remi=
nd me the IETF105 meeting minutes.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">I don=E2=80=99t know why that s=
aid thing =E2=80=9CTake it to list=E2=80=9D didn=E2=80=99t happen after 7 m=
onths !<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)=
" lang=3D"EN-US">Is it assumed that some questions are not addressed or not=
 clear ---- for example, security considerations? Or the said =E2=80=9CPrim=
ary intended use is
 HOMENET=E2=80=9D does not explicitly declared in the document ?<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" =
lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></strong><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=
=3D"EN-US"> <a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zha=
ng.zheng@zte.com.cn</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" t=
arget=3D"_blank">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>]<br><strong>Sent:</strong> Tues=
day, March 10, 2020 4:59 PM<br><strong>To:</strong> Xiejingrong (Jingrong) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong=
@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><strong>Cc:</strong> <a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bier=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bier-ads@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-xie-bier-ipv6=
-encapsulation@ietf.org</a><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re:Request an adop=
tion call ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><d=
iv><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif" lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Jingrong,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">Before being in adoption cal=
l, you may need to solve all the question about (<span style=3D"background:=
white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation</span>) a=
t first (in meeting and mailing
 list).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">Its a pit that you didn&#3=
9;t konw the consensus with<span style=3D"background:white none repeat scro=
ll 0% 0%">draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 even if you were</span>=C2=A0on BIER WG =
bluesheet in IETF105# (<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/105/blue=
sheets/bluesheets-105-bier-201907241330-00.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/proceedings/105/bluesheets/bluesheets-105-bier-201907241330-00.=
pdf</a>).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0=
%" lang=3D"EN-US">Please have a look at the minutes again (<a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/minutes?item=3Dminutes-105-bier-01.html" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/minutes?item=3Dminutes-105-bier-=
01.html</a>).</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">I think it&#39;s a baseline that the dra=
ft has gotten consensus in WG before it&#39;s taken to the adoption list.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" la=
ng=3D"EN-US">BTW: You may have misunderstanding about WG secretary.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial=
&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">AFAIK, WG secretary just does WG routine =
work, and there is no relationship with technology discussion and routine w=
ork.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">Let&#39;s back to the technol=
ogy discussion. Thanks!<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=
=3D"EN-US">Sandy<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u><=
/u></span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;l=
ine-height:21pt;background:rgb(224,229,233) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(19,136,255)">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6<span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p><div id=3D"gmail-m_-75244841=
06133566031zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span =
style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=
=9A</span></strong><span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Xiejingrong(Jingrong) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei=
.com</a>&gt;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none re=
peat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span>=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=
=81<span lang=3D"EN-US">00007940;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb=
(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@ietf.org=
</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</span>=
</strong><span lang=3D"EN-US">2020</span>=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">03</=
span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">10</span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US"> =
15:57<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ba=
ckground:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"=
font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A<span lang=3D"=
EN-US">RE: Re:Request an adoption call ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-=
05</span></span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></di=
v></div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D=
"EN-US">Dear Sandy,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(3=
1,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">With all due respect, I am curious whether you sp=
eak as individual or WG secretary.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-se=
rif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">More comments inline.</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(3=
1,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Thank=
s</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></strong><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zhang.zheng@zte=
.com.cn</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">ma=
ilto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>]<br><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong> Tuesday, March 10, 2020 2=
:57 PM<br><strong><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif=
">To:</span></strong> Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiejingr=
ong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><strong=
><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Cc:</span></str=
ong> <a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@=
ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.=
org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:bier-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@ie=
tf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org</a><br><strong>=
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:</span><=
/strong> Re:Request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-0=
5</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Hi Jingrong,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p st=
yle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt;background:white none repea=
t scroll 0% 0%;box-sizing:border-box;min-height:14px;outline:currentcolor n=
one 0px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"E=
N-US">I don&#39;t think this solution (draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation) h=
as gotten consensus in BIER working group.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt;ba=
ckground:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(46,117,182)" lang=3D"EN-=
US">[XJR] I think an adoption call is to verify the existence of consensus,=
 rather than reverse.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><=
p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt;background:white none r=
epeat scroll 0% 0%;box-sizing:border-box;min-height:14px;outline:currentcol=
or none 0px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=
=3D"EN-US">However, there is another BIER IPv6 solution (draft-zhang-bier-b=
ierin6) has gotten consensus in the WG.=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt=
;background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(46,117,182)" lang=3D"=
EN-US">[XJR] This claim of consensus looks even more strange to me, as you =
are one author of
 this draft, and also the secretary of BIER WG. I believe only WG chairs or=
 AD=C2=A0 can declare such=C2=A0 consensus.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt;b=
ackground:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%;box-sizing:border-box;min-height:1=
4px;outline:currentcolor none 0px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">The latest presentation is in IETF105# and =
it has been in adoption list.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt;background:whit=
e none repeat scroll 0% 0%;box-sizing:border-box;min-height:14px;outline:cu=
rrentcolor none 0px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-seri=
f" lang=3D"EN-US">BTW: I don&#39;t think there is straight relationship wit=
h BIER and SRv6. But=C2=A0draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 works well with SRv6 wit=
hout any extra specification.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt;background:whit=
e none repeat scroll 0% 0%;box-sizing:border-box;min-height:14px;outline:cu=
rrentcolor none 0px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-seri=
f" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p><p style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt;background:white non=
e repeat scroll 0% 0%;box-sizing:border-box;min-height:14px;outline:current=
color none 0px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Thanks</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p =
style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:15pt;background:white none rep=
eat scroll 0% 0%;box-sizing:border-box;min-height:14px;outline:currentcolor=
 none 0px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D=
"EN-US">Sandy</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D=
"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;line-height:21pt;bac=
kground:rgb(224,229,233) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(19,136,255)">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7524484106133566031zwriteHi=
storyContainer"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:r=
gb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Xiejingrong(Jingrong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xieji=
ngrong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xiejingrong@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span><=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><=
strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=
=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto=
:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat =
scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=8A=
=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span><span lang=3D"EN-US">BI=
ER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@iet=
f.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-a=
ds@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org</a>
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><stro=
ng><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=
=BC=9A</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US">2020</span>=E5=B9=B4<span lang=
=3D"EN-US">03</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">10</span>=E6=97=A5<span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">10:37<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><=
span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A=
<span lang=3D"EN-US">RE: Request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-en=
capsulation-05</span></span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Dear WG Chairs,</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lan=
g=3D"EN-US">We&#39;ve just updated a new revision of bier-ipv6-encapsulatio=
n. Main updates:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">1. Use=
 the Next Header value 143 for Ethernet packet in IP/IPv6.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">2. Update the =E2=80=9Csecurity conside=
ration=E2=80=9D section. further includes:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,1=
25)" lang=3D"EN-US">2.1 Explain the BIER domain and BIER sub-domain that ma=
y spanning multiple ASes operated by a single operator.</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">2.2 Simply refer the security consideratio=
ns of Inter-domain deployment to RFC8296, and remove the section 5.2 =E2=80=
=9CInter-domain deployment=E2=80=9D.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation/" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation/</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Dd=
raft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-06" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-06</a></span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,1=
25)" lang=3D"EN-US">The first update about Next Header value 143 is based o=
n the significant progress of Native IPv6 solution that is happening in ind=
ustry,
 below for reference:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">S=
Rv6 PGM (in its LC) has applied the Proto value 143 for Ethernet packet in =
IP/IPv6:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-n=
etwork-programming/</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"=
>=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">The second upda=
te is based on the Tony=E2=80=99s comment before IETF106 about security dep=
loyment, and suggestion from Dirk recently.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,=
125)" lang=3D"EN-US">We hope this could address the concerns about security=
 deployment of BIERv6, as well as other comments received on IETF106:</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://mailarchi=
ve.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/1DP5hGPrPsiC3OE5skm2yaN6tQM/" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/1DP5hGPrPsiC3OE5skm2yaN6tQM/</a><=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Again, we believe this draft is stable =
and ready for adoption, and the BIER WG charter item 7 &quot;BIER natively =
in IPv6&quot; should advance.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"=
EN-US">Thank you very much for consideration!</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,7=
3,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"=
EN-US">Best Regards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">Ji=
ngrong</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
 currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt me=
dium medium;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</sp=
an></strong><span style=3D"font-size:11pt" lang=3D"EN-US"> BIER [<a href=3D=
"mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>]<strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">On
 Behalf Of </span></strong>Xiejingrong (Jingrong)<br><strong><span style=3D=
"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">Sent:</span></strong> Thursday, January 23=
, 2020 9:27 AM<br><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">To=
:</span></strong> <a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>bier-chairs@ietf.org</a><br><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">Cc:</span></strong> BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:bier-ads@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@ietf.org</a>;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-xie-bier=
-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsu=
lation@ietf.org</a><br><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=
=93">Subject:</span></strong> [Bier] Request an adoption call on draft-xie-=
bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear WG Chairs:=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We wou=
ld like to request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We&#3=
9;ve presented this proposal for about two years and it had led to the writ=
ing and adoption of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We&#39;ve addressed the com=
ments received in the past 2 years.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We&#39;ve seen lots of interest on the draft.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We beli=
eve it is stable and ready for adoption.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We think the charter item 7 &quot;BIER =
natively in IPv6&quot; should advance.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks for consideration.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">BTW:<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I will be in spring festiv=
al for the coming 7 days but I can read the list anytime.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Happy spring festival to=
 those who have.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">Jingrong (on behalf of the authors and contributors)<u></u><u></=
u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><span lang=3D"EN-=
US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div><p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br></p></div></blockquote></div>

--000000000000420b5805a0812a0e--


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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
CC: "bier-chairs@ietf.org" <bier-chairs@ietf.org>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, "bier-ads@ietf.org" <bier-ads@ietf.org>, "draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org" <draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Re:Request an adoption call ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
Thread-Index: AQHV9rpzfPS9EwAegUu0w/JSmC2R/qhBmHUw//+/KgCAAJBb4A==
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:51:11 +0000
Message-ID: <cee09bb4a80a4761ab0544c2b63f2448@huawei.com>
References: 202003101658540714229@zte.com.cn, 5fdea958d2d146439d36e4b604e32abd@huawei.com <202003102210042651244@zte.com.cn>
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Subject: [Bier] The BIER WG has placed draft-jholland-mboned-ambi in state "Adopted by a WG"
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The BIER WG has placed draft-jholland-mboned-ambi in state
Adopted by a WG (entered by Greg Shepherd)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jholland-mboned-ambi/



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The BIER WG has placed draft-jholland-mboned-cbacc in state
Adopted by a WG (entered by Greg Shepherd)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jholland-mboned-cbacc/



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The BIER WG has placed draft-jholland-mboned-dorms in state
Adopted by a WG (entered by Greg Shepherd)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jholland-mboned-dorms/



From nobody Wed Mar 11 15:13:14 2020
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 23:12:57 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
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Subject: [Bier] BIER-TE -07 uploaded (was: Re: Pls "vote" on name (draft-ietf-bier-te-arch))
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Thanks for everybody chiming into the WG last call of this document,
i hope the chairs can declare it to have successfully finished WG
work now and pass it to the responsible AD for further IETF processing:

I did push the -07 update to the draft that changes the name to
BIER-TE "Tree Engineering" as shown to be the consensus of the WG.

I btw. also like "Tree Engineering" the most, but did not 
suggest it initially, in an attempt to satisfy Debra's concern,
but also agree very much with what Greg said about the point. 
Also, see my email reply to Debra early and the points it made.

-07 also includes explanation about that name change and the relationship
to "Traffic Engineering" as a note on top of the document marked for removal
by RFC-editor, so that further reviews by AD/IETF/IESG can be on top of
the these two points without the need to argue about the RFC viability of such
explanations (was not sure everybody reads changelog).

I had hoped to receive a followup from Lou re. his suggestion for
additional text about "Traffic Engineering". I also polled him in PM
last week, but no further reply. This is not a complained, i know
how everybody is busy, but i think if he wants to provide further simple text to 
provide additional documentation for that relationship, then he can
always do it still in IETF review.

Nevertheless, i feel it would be more appropriate to take relationships
about Tree Engineering and Traffic Engineering to the
proposed TEAS BIER-TE framework document, which i am happy to revive
and improve upon after this draft is an RFC. Especially also given
Alias guidance when we adopted the document in the WG, that traffic
engineering must be done in TEAS and that BIER should only do the
BIER related forwarding plane aspects. Which is exactly what the
document does.

IMHO, there are no further "Traffic Engineering" considerations
that would change any technical aspects of this document. As i
explained in another email, both BIER and BIER-TE could be part of
a traffic engineering as i understand the options. BIER of course
being more limited by the path steering solution it is combined with,
like Flex-Algos). Hence i feel further "Traffic Engineering" aspects
would be misplaced in this document anyhow.

Cheers
    Toerless


On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 03:56:51PM +0800, zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn wrote:
> +1.
> 
> 
> Seems like the previous mail has been lost. So I sent the mail again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Sandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ????????????
> 
> 
> 
> ????????????GregShepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
> ????????????Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>;
> ????????????Dirk Trossen <dirk.trossen@huawei.com>;bier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ietf.org <bier-ads@ietf.org>;BRUNGARD,DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com>;Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>;Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>;bier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@ietf.org>;
> ??? ??? ???2020???02???29??? 00:00
> ??? ??? ???Re: [Bier] Pls "vote" on name (draft-ietf-bier-te-arch)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
> 
> 
> My vote: BIER-TE Call it Tree Engineering. If we were so concerned with acronym overuse the IETF would grind to a halt... I've been involved in other WGs where I felt the name missed the mark describing the ideas in the draft, but felt reading the draft was how someone got their heads around the proposed solution, rather than miss-read the title and run away confused. ie - Vlex-Algo. No, it's Flex-Topo, but what's to be gained from arguing for a name at this point? 
> 
> 
> Yes, we should strive to be as 'correct' as possible. But the IETF is full of baggage that engineers have managed to wade through, make sense of, and implement successfully. Get the spec right, No #1 priority. If you don't like the name, read on. It will grow on you. :)
> 
> 
> Shep (w/o chair hat)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 7:31 AM Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
> 
> If you go with PBR, you could continue the BIER WG traditional of selecting brew-based acronyms. Hence, that would be my vote. It could be confused with Policy Based Routing but only if someone actually implements it.
> Thanks,
> Acee
> 
> ???On 2/28/20, 9:23 AM, "BIER on behalf of Toerless Eckert" <bier-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> 
>     Sure, Just reply wth the ones you like whether existing or added and
>     give them the weiht you like, e.g.: from your email something like:
> 
>     5  BIER-PBR    (Path Based Routing)
>     5  BIER-PST    (Path based STeering)
>     3  BIER-PE     (Path Engineering)
> 
>     On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 07:54:07AM +0000, Dirk Trossen wrote:
>     > Toerless, all,
>     > 
>     > May I add to the mix (which might not help) with the proposal for 'path-based routing' (or BIER-PBR) or 'path-based steering' (or BIER-PST)? If you want to keep a two letter acronym, I'd add 'path steering' (rather than path engineering) to the mix. From the below, without considering any alternatives, I'd go for BIER-PE but it comes with the issues like many two letter acronyms, namely the higher 'collision rate' with others.
>     > 
>     > Best,
>     > 
>     > Dirk
>     > 
>     > 
>     > 
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
>     > Sent: 27 February 2020 21:41
>     > To: bier@ietf.org
>     > Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; bier-ads@ietf.org; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.org
>     > Subject: [Bier] Pls "vote" on name (draft-ietf-bier-te-arch)
>     > 
>     > Dear WG
>     > 
>     > Please chime in with opinions about the following or any new name you like as the new name for BIER-TE. Timeout is deadline for submission of draft before IETF107, when i'll post an update. If you propose a new name try to avoid re-using abbreviations that may be misinterpreted.
>     > 
>     > 5 = best name ever, ... 1 = lame name, no number assigned means 0 votes are just added up and maximum sum option wins.
>     > Explanations if you haven't followed thread at the end.
>     > 
>     > BIER-PE  - Path Engineering
>     > BIER-ET  - Explicit Trees
>     > BIER-EET - Explicit Engineered Trees
>     > BIER-BET - Bit Engineered Trees
>     > BIER-BST - Bit Steered Trees
>     > BIER-TrE - Tree engineering
>     > BIER-ET  - Engineered Trees
>     > BIER-ST  - Steered Trees
>     > 
>     > BIER-ASB - Adjacency Steering Bits   (adjacencies are how bits in BIER-PE are defined)
>     > BIER-AB  - Adjacency Bits
>     > BIER-SB  - Steering Bits             (overloads with "Source Block" - never heard)
>     > 
>     > Thanks,
>     >     Toerless
>     > 
>     > Explanations: If you have read through the threads with Lou and Deborah, and my understanding is correct:
>     > 
>     > Lou desired there to be a new name so BIER-TE the forwarding/steering mechanism (this document) is named differently from BIER-TE the larger framework utilizing TEAS/PCE definition (separate future draft).
>     > 
>     > Lou did not like my "Path Engineering" proposal as the name in the last version of the doc and felt we should pick a name with Steering/routing-policy in it. I think usn only steering/routing would be misleading (confused with unicast approaches).
>     > 
>     > Deborah pointed to avoiding confusions in the name with pre-established named (e.g.: "PE" meaning Provider Edge).
>     > Said we should finalize on the name before we as the WG should pass the document to IESG. And she asked chairs to extend last-call by one more week (unrelated). Hence timeout end of next week.
>     > 
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > BIER mailing list
>     > BIER@ietf.org
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>     > 
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > BIER mailing list
>     > BIER@ietf.org
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
> 
>     -- 
>     ---
>     tte@cs.fau...de
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     BIER mailing list
>     BIER@ietf.org
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier



-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


From nobody Wed Mar 11 15:51:18 2020
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 23:51:02 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: iana@iana.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org, bier-ads@ietf.org
Cc: bier@ietf.org
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Subject: [Bier] Ethertype for non-MPLS BIER suggestion
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Dear IANA, BIER leadership

Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE procedures),
but:

I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the following record with IEEE:

http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt


AB37                          IETF Routing Area   Please read draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at
                              5177 Brandin Court   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/.      
                              Fremont  CA  94538                           
                              US              

Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296

And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of "draft-ietf" in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.

Cheers
    Toerless

P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at the
LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD's ? (don't answer, just kidding).


From nobody Wed Mar 11 16:42:40 2020
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER-TE -07 uploaded (was: Re: Pls "vote" on name (draft-ietf-bier-te-arch))
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On 3/11/2020 6:12 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> I had hoped to receive a followup from Lou re. his suggestion for
> additional text about "Traffic Engineering".

Sorry I didn't see any message seriously asking for input into the 
document, public or private or otherwise.Â  As I stated previously, I'm 
happy to provide such. I'll try to produce it over the weekend, but it 
may be into next week.Â  Things are a bit busy for the moment -- I 
haven't even been able to keep up on the IETF list entertainment!

Lou



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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 02:04:31 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Cc: bier@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-te-arch.ad@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER-TE -07 uploaded (was: Re: Pls "vote" on name (draft-ietf-bier-te-arch))
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On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 07:42:31PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote:
> 
> On 3/11/2020 6:12 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> > I had hoped to receive a followup from Lou re. his suggestion for
> > additional text about "Traffic Engineering".
> 
> Sorry I didn't see any message seriously asking for input into the document,
> public or private or otherwise. 

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/5SMrtPDgBo861DVf4ZcstXL1b78/
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/lNsrv3d28gHiOPSnVe9TpLUM_z4/
PM March 5th "Subject: Lou: Re: [Bier] Pls "vote" on name (draft-ietf-bier-te-arch)"

> As I stated previously, I'm happy to
> provide such. I'll try to produce it over the weekend, but it may be into
> next week.  Things are a bit busy for the moment -- I haven't even been able
> to keep up on the IETF list entertainment!

As i said in my mails, i am completely unclear as to what you would
want to write, and its not clear to me either why it better would go
into this document than into the planned TEAS framework document.

Would be happy to also have a quick voice call if you prefer that.

Cheers
    Toerless


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:00:44 -0700
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To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: iana@iana.org, BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>, bier-ads@ietf.org,  BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Ethertype for non-MPLS BIER suggestion
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--00000000000032713d05a0a06b98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I'm surprised, there was an official liaison and assignment from IEEE of
the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having filed _the_ forms
;-) for her ...

--- tony

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> Dear IANA, BIER leadership
>
> Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE
> procedures),
> but:
>
> I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the following
> record with IEEE:
>
> http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt
>
>
> AB37                          IETF Routing Area   Please read
> draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at
>                               5177 Brandin Court
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/.
>
>                               Fremont  CA  94538
>                               US
>
> Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296
>
> And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of
> "draft-ietf" in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.
>
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>
> P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at the
> LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD's ? (don't answer,
> just kidding).
>

--00000000000032713d05a0a06b98
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;m surprised, there was an official liaison and =
assignment from IEEE of the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember hav=
ing filed _the_ forms ;-) for her ... <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- ton=
y <br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:tte@cs.fau.de">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Dear IANA, BIER leadership<br>
<br>
Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE procedure=
s),<br>
but:<br>
<br>
I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the following rec=
ord with IEEE:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt</a><b=
r>
<br>
<br>
AB37=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF Routing Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0Please read draft-ietf-b=
ier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5177 Brandin Court=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
bier-mpls-encapsulation/</a>.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Fremont=C2=A0 CA=C2=A0 94538=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 US=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296<br>
<br>
And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of &quot;dr=
aft-ietf&quot; in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless<br>
<br>
P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at the<br>
LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD&#39;s ? (don&#39;t =
answer, just kidding).<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000032713d05a0a06b98--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:01:39 -0700
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To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: iana@iana.org, BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>, bier-ads@ietf.org,  BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Ethertype for non-MPLS BIER suggestion
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oh, I see. no idea what the proper "update" procedure in IEEE is. Someone
feels like ferreting that out?


On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:00 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm surprised, there was an official liaison and assignment from IEEE of
> the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having filed _the_ forms
> ;-) for her ...
>
> --- tony
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>
>> Dear IANA, BIER leadership
>>
>> Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE
>> procedures),
>> but:
>>
>> I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the following
>> record with IEEE:
>>
>> http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt
>>
>>
>> AB37                          IETF Routing Area   Please read
>> draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at
>>                               5177 Brandin Court
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/.
>>
>>                               Fremont  CA  94538
>>
>>                               US
>>
>> Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296
>>
>> And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of
>> "draft-ietf" in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.
>>
>> Cheers
>>     Toerless
>>
>> P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at the
>> LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD's ? (don't
>> answer, just kidding).
>>
>

--0000000000006f45b905a0a06e1e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>oh, I see. no idea what the proper &quot;update&quot;=
 procedure in IEEE is. Someone feels like ferreting that out? <br></div><di=
v><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:00 PM Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;=
m surprised, there was an official liaison and assignment from IEEE of the =
ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having filed _the_ forms ;-) fo=
r her ... <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 11, =
2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=
=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">Dear IANA, BIER leadership<br>
<br>
Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE procedure=
s),<br>
but:<br>
<br>
I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the following rec=
ord with IEEE:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt</a><b=
r>
<br>
<br>
AB37=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF Routing Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0Please read draft-ietf-b=
ier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5177 Brandin Court=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
bier-mpls-encapsulation/</a>.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Fremont=C2=A0 CA=C2=A0 94538=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 US=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296<br>
<br>
And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of &quot;dr=
aft-ietf&quot; in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless<br>
<br>
P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at the<br>
LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD&#39;s ? (don&#39;t =
answer, just kidding).<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000006f45b905a0a06e1e--


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--_000_87f9ff060e20406a9ee2ffd70cfa02e0huaweicom_--


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Subject: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt
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Comments on subject document inline. Thanks a lot for the work.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> Network Working Group                                             J. Xie
> Internet-Draft                                       Huawei Technologies
> Intended status: Standards Track                                 L. Geng
> Expires: July 17, 2020                                      China Mobile
>                                                               M. McBride
>                                                                Futurewei
>                                                                 R. Asati
>                                                                    Cisco
>                                                              S. Dhanaraj
>                                                                   Huawei
>                                                         January 14, 2020
> 
> 
>             Encapsulation for BIER in Non-MPLS IPv6 Networks
>                   draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
> 
> Abstract
> 
>    This document proposes a BIER IPv6 (BIERv6) encapsulation for Non-
>    MPLS IPv6 Networks using the IPv6 Destination Option extension
>    header.  This document updates [RFC8296].
> 
> Requirements Language
> 
>    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
>    "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
>    document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119] and
>    [RFC8174].
> 
> Status of This Memo
> 
>    This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
>    provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.
> 
>    Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
>    Task Force (IETF).  Note that other groups may also distribute
>    working documents as Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
>    Drafts is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.
> 
>    Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>    and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>    time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>    material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
> 
>    This Internet-Draft will expire on July 17, 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                 [Page 1]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
> Copyright Notice
> 
>    Copyright (c) 2020 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
>    document authors.  All rights reserved.
> 
>    This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
>    Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
>    (https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
>    publication of this document.  Please review these documents
>    carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect
>    to this document.  Code Components extracted from this document must
>    include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of
>    the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as
>    described in the Simplified BSD License.
> 
> Table of Contents
> 
>    1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   2
>    2.  Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
>    3.  BIER IPv6 Encapsulation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
>      3.1.  BIER Option in IPv6 Destination Options Header  . . . . .   3
>      3.2.  Multicast and Unicast Destination Address . . . . . . . .   6
>      3.3.  BIERv6 Packet Format  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   8
>    4.  BIERv6 Packet Processing  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   9
>    5.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  11
>      5.1.  Intra Domain Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  12
>      5.2.  Inter Domain Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  13
>      5.3.  ICMP Error Processing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  13
>      5.4.  Security caused by BIER option  . . . . . . . . . . . . .  14
>      5.5.  Applicability of IPsec  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  14
>    6.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  15
>      6.1.  BIER Option Type  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  15
>      6.2.  End.BIER Function . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  15
>      6.3.  BIER Next Protocol Identifiers  . . . . . . . . . . . . .  16
>    7.  Acknowledgements  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  16
>    8.  Contributors  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  16
>    9.  References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  17
>      9.1.  Normative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  17
>      9.2.  Informative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  18
>    Authors' Addresses  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  18
> 
> 1.  Introduction
> 
>    Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) [RFC8279] is an architecture
>    that provides optimal multicast forwarding without requiring
>    intermediate routers to maintain any per-flow state by using a
>    multicast-specific BIER header.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                 [Page 2]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
>    [RFC8296] defines a common BIER Header format for MPLS and Non-MPLS
>    networks.  It has defined two types of encapsulation methods using
>    the common BIER Header, (1) BIER encapsulation in MPLS networks,
>    here-in after referred as MPLS BIER Header in this document and (2)
>    BIER encapsulation in Non-MPLS networks, here-in after referred as
>    Non-MPLS BIER Header in this document.  [RFC8296] also assigned
>    Ethertype=0xAB37 for Non-MPLS BIER Header packets to be directly
>    carried over the Ethernet links.
> 
>    This document proposes a BIER IPv6 encapsulation for Non-MPLS IPv6
>    Networks, defining a method to carry the standard Non-MPLS BIER
>    header (as defined in [RFC8296]) in the native IPv6 header.  A new
>    IPv6 Option type - BIER Option is defined to encode the standard Non-
>    MPLS BIER header and this newly defined BIER Option is carried under
>    the Destination Options header of the native IPv6 Header [RFC8200].
> 
>    This document details one of the proposed solutions for transporting
>    BIER packets in an IPv6 network.  To better understand the overall
>    BIER IPv6 problem space, use cases and proposed solutions, refer to
>    [I-D.ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements].
> 
> 2.  Terminology
> 
>    Readers of this document are assumed to be familiar with the
>    terminology and concepts of the documents listed as Normative
>    References.
> 
>    The following new terms are used throughout this document:
> 
>    o  BIERv6 - BIER IPv6.
> 
>    o  BIER Option - An Option type carried in IPv6 Destination Options
>       Header which includes the standard Non-MPLS BIER Header.
> 
>    o  BIERv6 Header - An IPv6 Header with BIER Option.
> 
>    o  BIERv6 Packet - An IPv6 packet with BIERv6 Header.  Such an IPv6
>       packet typically carries the user multicast payload and is
>       forwarded by BFRs in the BIERv6 network towards the multicast
>       receivers.
> 
> 3.  BIER IPv6 Encapsulation

I think it would be good to write introductory text here explaining the
overall approach of this encapsulation, e.g: BFIR running this option
encapsulate the target IP multicast payload (IPv6, IPv6, ethernet packet)
into a BIERv6 packet, which is an IPv6 packet with the new BIERv6 header.
This packet is then hop-by-hop IPv6 forwarded with the BIER replication
semantic defined by the BIERv6 header and decapsulated on the BFERs.
> 
> 3.1.  BIER Option in IPv6 Destination Options Header
> 
>    Destination Options Header and the Options that can be carried under
>    this extension header is defined in [RFC8200].  This document defines
>    a new Option type - BIER Option, to encode the Non-MPLS BIER header.
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                 [Page 3]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
>    As specified in Section 4.2 [RFC8200], the BIER Option follows type-
>    length-value (TLV) encoding format and the standard Non-MPLS BIER
>    header [RFC8296] is encoded in the value portion of the BIER Option
>    TLV.
> 
>    This BIER Option MUST be carried only inside the IPv6 Destination
>    Options header and MUST NOT be carried under the Hop-by-Hop Options
>    header.
> 
>    Co-existence of Destination Options Header with BIER option TLV and
>    other IPv6 extension headers MUST confirm to the general requirements
>    defined in [RFC8200].  In addition to the requirements defined in
>    [RFC8200], this document requires that the Destination Options Header
>    with a BIER Option TLV MUST appear only after the Routing Header if
>    the Routing Header is present in the IPv6 Header.
> 
>    The BIER Option is encoded in type-length-value (TLV) format as
>    follows:
> 
>         0                   1                   2                   3
>         0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |  Next Header  |  Hdr Ext Len  |  Option Type  | Option Length |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>        |                                                               |
>        ~          Non-MPLS BIER Header (defined in RFC8296)            ~
>        |                                                               |
>        +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
>    Next Header  8-bit selector.  Identifies the type of header
>       immediately following the Destination Options header.
> 
>    Hdr Ext Len  8-bit unsigned integer.  Length of the Destination
>       Options header in 8-octet units, not including the first 8 octets.
> 
>    Option Type  To be allocated by IANA.  See section 6.
> 
>    Option Length  8-bit unsigned integer.  Length of the option, in
>       octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields.
> 
>    Non-MPLS BIER Header  The Non-MPLS BIER Header defined in RFC8296.
>       Fields in the Non-MPLS BIER Header MUST be encoded as below.
> 
> 
> 
>         BIFT-id: The BIFT-id is a domain-wide unique value in Non-MPLS
>         IPv6 encapsulation.  See Section 2.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                 [Page 4]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
>         TC: SHOULD be set to binary value 000 upon transmission and MUST
>         be ignored upon.  See Section 2.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         S bit: SHOULD be set to 1 upon transmission, and MUST be ignored
>         upon reception.  See Section 2.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         TTL: MUST be set to a value larger than 0 upon encapsulation,
>         and SHOULD decrease by 1 by a BFR when forwarding a BIERv6
>         packet to a BFR adjacency.  If the incoming TTL is 0, the packet
>         is considered to be "expired".  See Section 2.1.1.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         Nibble: SHOULD be set to 0000 upon transmission, and MUST be
>         ignored upon reception.  See Section 2.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         Ver: MUST be set to 0 upon transmission, and MUST be discarded
>         when it is not 0 upon reception.  See Section 2.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         BSL: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         Entropy: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         OAM: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         Rsv: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.

Is there anything up to here that is different from what RFC8296 for non-MPLS
networks ? If there are new things here, they are hard to identify,
so it might be better to eliminate all requirments that can be found in
RFC8296 2.2 and only describe any changes.

>         DSCP: SHOULD be set to binary value 000000 upon transmission and
>         MUST be ignored upon reception.  In IPv6 BIER encapsulation,
>         uses highest 6-bit of Traffic Class field of IPv6 header to hold
>         a Differentiated Services Codepoint [RFC2474].

Given how this draft suggests to verbatim reuse the quite long RFC8296
forwarding header (like other proposals for BIER with IPv6 too), i think
the hope is that it can leverage as much as possible existing BIER
forwarding logic to ease adoption. It is therefore not clear to me if
it is prudent to force the forwarding plane to use the DSCP from the IPv6
header instead of the BIER header. I would suggest to say that  the BFIR uses
the same DSCP for both the IPv6 and BIER header so that forwarding plane
can use either field, which ever is easier to impleemnt. Else, it would be
good o have an explanation in the text why the above described approach
is superior.

>         Proto: This fileld is used for two functions.  The first is to
>         identify the BIER Payload following the BIER header, and the
>         second is to deliver the packet to a proper overlay module by
>         BIER layer, with VRF lookup in case of BIER data process, or
>         without VRF lookup in case of BIER OAM process.  In BIER IPv6
>         encapsulation, the first function of Proto is compromised by a
>         proper Next Header value combination, and the second function of
>         Proto should be kept with the semantic unique and consistent for
>         BIER demultiplexing.  This updates section 2.1.2 of [RFC8296]
>         about Proto defination.  This document support the following
>         combination of BIER Proto and Next Header:
> 
> 
> 
>            Use Next Header value 4, 41 and TBD0 for IPv4 packet, IPv6
>            packet and Ethernet packet respectively,

In general, this document might not constrain itself to specific code
points but just allow all the code-points that users want and are
defined by IANA. IPv4 and IPv6 of course can be explicitly listed
maybe even with requirements levels.

Rewrite text for TBD0 to instead say "code point for ethernet from <srv6 reference-doc>",
so this doc wouldn't need to wait for it.

>            and use Proto value
>            TBD1 indicating "Delivering the data packet with VRF lookup
>            in IPv6 source address".

I am right now not on top of how BIER in MPLS networks supports the more complex
forms of VRFs, e.g.: extranet VRFs, but i thought it was through additional
labels after the BIER header. Logically a BFIR might only have one
address in VRF0, so it could be problematic to expect for BIER to
assume per-VRF addresses as source addresses. 

Maybe it would be easier to move the VRF support into a separate document.
Seems to me as if it would make sense to figure out if BIER with v6
could be combined with some subset of SRv6 that includes the destination
(BFER) related SIDs, most of which seem to be about VRF selection.
That would make inclusion of BIER into SRv6 deployment easier. And
i am guessing that customers who insist on hop-by-hop IPv6 forwarding
across their core would likely minimize differences to SRv6 too.

> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
>            Use Next Header value 59 for private packet format, and use
>            Proto value 5 indicating "Delivering the BIER OAM packet
>            without VRF lookup".  The BIER-PING [I-D.ietf-bier-ping]
>            works equally in BIER IPv6 encapsulation as well as in BIER
>            MPLS or BIER Ethernet encapsulation.
> 
>            Allocation of Next Header value TBD0 for Ethernet packet is
>            applying in [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] and
>            will not be listed in the IANA considerations section of this
>            document.

With above change referring only to that doc, not he actual code-point, this paragraph could go away. Of course, once the code point is IANA assigned, you can simply use it in the text and remove the reference.

>            Allocation of BIER Proto value TBD1 is listed in the IANA
>            considerations section of this document.
> 
>         BFIR-id: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
>         BitString: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.
> 
> 3.2.  Multicast and Unicast Destination Address
> 
>    BIER is generally a hop-by-hop and one-to-many architecture, and thus
>    the IPv6 Destination Address (DA) being a Multicast Address is a way
>    one may think of as an approach for both the two paradigms in BIERv6
>    encapsulation.

I think a better way to explain:

If an IPv6 (or IPv4) multicast group destination address is used as a
hop-by-hop forwarding key, then this requires hop-by-hop per-group forwarding state,
therefore, just because BIER is like IP multicast a (multi-)point-to-multipoint service,
it can not use IP multicast IP multicast group destination addresses. Instead
it requires per-hop unicast destination address forwarding.

>    However using a unicast address has the following benefits:
> 
>    1.  Tunneling a BIERv6 packet over a non-BIER capable router.
> 
>    2.  Fast rerouting a BIERv6 packet using a unicast by-pass tunnel.

Maybe more general "Using unicast FRR adjacencies to next-hop BFR".

>    3.  Forwarding a BIERv6 packet to one of the many BFR neighbors
>        connected on a LAN.

Well. AFAIK, all the BIER solutions as well as mLDP/RSVP-TE have rather the downside that they must create multiple copies across the same LAN as they have neighbors to send to, so this is not only a benefit. (Maybe mLDP does now standardize native link-local multicast with upstream assigned labels to leverage L2 multicast, not sure).

>    4.  Connecting BIER domains, for example Data Center domains, in an
>        overlay manner.

Given the management considerations for the BIER addressing space, this is
a bit like saying the telephone allows people in different countries to
talk with each other. Aka: Higher layer problems non-withstanding.

IMHO, no need to create contention around point 3 and 4, its just a reqiurements
and it comes with undeniable benefits 1. and 2.

>    Some of the above functions are assumed very basic requirements and
>    part of BIER architecture as described in [RFC8279].  This document
>    uses unicast address for both one-hop replication and multi-hop
>    replication.

Not sure if one-hop replication and multi-hop replication are well predefined terms
maybe better "BIER replication to subnet adjacent BFR and BIER replication to remote BFR".

> 
>    The unicast address used in BIERv6 packet targeting a BFR SHOULD be
>    advertised as part of the BIER IPv6 Encapsulation.  When a BFR
>    advertises the BIER information with BIERv6 encapsulation capability,
>    an IPv6 unicast address of this BFR MUST be selected specifically for
>    BIERv6 packet forwarding.  Locally this "BIER Specific" IPv6 address
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
>    is initialized in FIB with a flag of "BIER specific handling",
>    represented as End.BIER function.

You should start explaining here, before you use the SR terminology (foo.bar),
that the semantic of the encapsulation addresses is explained in SR terminology
becuase it is desired for BIERv6 to be used inside an SRv6 network and
share its terminology. Right now you do it after using all the SR terminology
and pseudo code, which may ten confuse non-SRv6 aware readers.

>    If a BFR belongs to more than one sub-domain, it may (though it need
>    not) have a different End.BIER in each sub-domain.  If different
>    End.BIER is used for each sub-domain, implementation SHOULD support
>    verifying the DA of a BIERv6 packet is the End.BIER address bound by
>    the sub-domain of the packet.  See section 5.2 for such use case.
> 
>    The following is an example of configuring a sub-domain using BIER
>    IPv6 encapsualation:
> 
>        # Config an IPv6 block for End.BIER IPv6 address allocation
>        ipv6-block blk1 2001:DB8:A1:: 96 static 32
> 
>        # Config BIER Sub-domain using End.BIER allocated from blk1
>        bier sub-domain 6 ipv6-underlay
>            bfr-prefix interface loopback0
>            end-bier ipv6-block blk1 opcode ::1
>            encapsulation ipv6 bsl 256 max-si 0
> 
>    The co-existance of BIERv6 and SRv6 is allowed.  The following is an
>    example of configuring a sub-domain using BIERv6 when SRv6 is already
>    deployed with a locator 'loc1' configured:
> 
>        # Config BIER Sub-domain using End.BIER allocated from loc1
>        bier sub-domain 6 ipv6-underlay
>            bfr-prefix interface loopback0
>            end-bier locator loc1 opcode ::1
>            encapsulation ipv6 bsl 256 max-si 0
> 
>    For the convenience of such co-existence of BIERv6 and SRv6, the
>    indication of End.BIER or "BIER specific handling" in FIB shares the
>    same space as SRv6 Endpoints Behaviors defined in
>    [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming].  Apart from this sharing
>    of code space, there is nothing dependent on SRv6.
> 
>    The following is an example pseudo-code of the End.BIER function:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>      1. IF NH = 60 and HopLimit > 0                               ;;Ref1
>      2.   IF (OptType1 = BIER) and (OptLength1 = HdrExtLen*8 + 4) ;;Ref2
>      3.     Lookup the BIER Header inside the BIER option TLV.
>      4.     Forward via the matched entry.
>      5.   ELSE                                                    ;;Ref3
>      6.     Drop the packet and end the process.
>      7. ELSE IF NH=ICMPv6 or (NH=60 and Dest_NH=ICMPv6)           ;;Ref4
>      8.   Send to CPU.
>      9. ELSE                                                      ;;Ref5
>     10.   Drop the packet.
> 
>    Ref1: Destination options header follows the IPv6 header directly and
>    HopLimit is bigger than zero.
> 
>    Ref2: The first TLV is BIER type and is the only TLV present in
>    Destination options header.
> 
>    Ref3/Ref5: Undesired packet is droped because the destination address
>    is the BIER specific IPv6 address (End.BIER function).
> 
>    Ref4: An ICMPv6 packet using End.BIER as destination address.

I didn't try yet to understand all this text, and so might other non-SR knowledgable
readers, so i recommend to add a summary at the end that tries to explain non-SR
terms what specifically this example was doing.

> 
> 3.3.  BIERv6 Packet Format
> 
>    As a multicast packet enters the BIER domain in a Non-MPLS IPv6
>    network, the multicast packet will be encapsulated with BIERv6
>    Header.
> 
>    Typically a BIERv6 header would contain the Destination Options
>    Header as the only Extensions Header besides IPv6 Header.  However,
>    it is allowed and possible for other extension headers to appear
>    along with the Destination Options Header as long as the requirements
>    listed in section 3.1 of this document is met.
> 
>    Format of the multicast packet with BIERv6 encapsulation carrying
>    only the Destination Options header is depicted in the below figure.
> 
>       +---------------+--------------+------------
>       | IPv6 header   | Dest Options | X type of
>       |               | Header with  | multicast
>       |               | BIER Option  | packet
>       |               |              |
>       | Next Hdr = 60 |  Nxt Hdr = X |
>       +---------------+--------------+------------

Would be nice to include in dotted (optional) form the routing header.

>    Format of the multicast packet with BIERv6 encapsulation carrying
>    other extension headers along with Destination Options extension
>    header is required to follow general recommendations of [RFC8200] and
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>    examples in other RFCs.  [RFC6275] introduces how the order should be
>    when other extension headers carries along with Home address option
>    in a destination options header.  Similar to this example, this
>    document requires the Destination Options Header carrying the BIER
>    option MUST be placed as follows:
> 
>    o  After the routing header, if that header is present
> 
>    o  Before the Fragment Header, if that header is present
> 
>    o  Before the AH Header or ESP Header, if either one of those headers
>       is present
> 
>    Source Address field in the IPv6 header MUST be a routable IPv6
>    unicast address of the BFIR in any case.

Is it permitted by RFC8200 to lie about the source address when you
are a node operating on a destination option ? I don't know because
i am not an ordained priest of the church of RFC8200. I understand
you are allowed to keep the source address unchanged (and declare that
not to be a lie) when you rewrite the destination address as part of
being addressed by a routing header option, but i thought even in SRv6
when you do something like a binding-SID you would have to rewrite the
source address. 

> 
>    BFIR encodes the Non-MPLS BIER header in the above mentioned
>    encapsulation format and forwards the BIERv6 packet to the nexthop
>    BFR following the local BIFT table.

LCD Display ;-)

(Table is the last word in BIFT, no need to replicate).

>    BFRs in the IPv6 network, processes and replicates the packets
>    towards the BFERs using the local BIFT table.  The bit-string field
>    in the Non-MPLS BIER header may be changed by the BFRs as they
>    replicate the packet.  BFRs MUST follow the procedures defined in
>    section 3.1 as they modify the other fields in the Non-MPLS BIER
>    header.  The source address in the IPv6 header MUST NOT be modified
>    by the BFRs.
> 
> 4.  BIERv6 Packet Processing
> 
>    There is no BIER-specific processing,

? Unclear.

>    and all the 8 steps in section
>    6.5 of RFC8279 apply to BIERv6 packet processing.  However, there are
>    some IPv6-specific processing procedures due to the base and general
>    procedures of IPv6.
> 
>    On the overlay layer, when a multicast packet enters the BIER domain
>    in a Non-MPLS IPv6 network, the Ingress BFR (BFIR) encapsulates the
>    multicast packet with a BIERv6 Header, transforming it to a BIERv6

Encapsulates instead of transform IMHO.

>    packet.  The BIERv6 header includes an IPv6 header and IPv6
>    Destination Options Header within a standard Non-MPLS BIER header.
>    Source Address field in the IPv6 header MUST be set to a routable
>    IPv6 unicast address of the BFIR.  Destination Address field in the
>    IPv6 header is set to the End.BIER address of the next-hop BFR the
>    BIERv6 packet replicating to, no matter next-hop BFR is directly
>    connected (one-hop) or not directly connected (multi-hop).

I think it would be good to provide in a fitting place some good
justification/examples why especially BFR not acting as BFER  would
benefit from using any other addresses than the BIER prefix of the BFR.

> 
>    On the BIER layer, upon receiving an BIERv6 packet, the BFR processes
>    the IPv6 header first.  This is the general procedure of IPv6.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>    If the IPv6 Destination address is an End.BIER IPv6 unicast address
>    of this BFR, a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication will be obtained
>    by the preceding Unicast DA lookup (FIB lookup).  The BIER option, if
>    exists, will be checked to decide which neighbor(s) to replicate the
>    BIERv6 packet to.
> 
>    It is a local behavior to handle the combination of extension
>    headers, options and the BIER option(s) in destination options header
>    when a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication is got by the preceding
>    FIB lookup.  Early deployment of BIERv6 may require there is only one
>    BIER option TLV in the destination options header followed the IPv6
>    header.  How other extension headers or more BIER option TLVs in a
>    BIERv6 packet is handled is outside the scope of this document.

Typically AFAIK, the handling of option headers is not tied to a
avarying semantic of the destination address. I do understand that
IPv6 SIDs have semantic tied to them, but is there an example how such
a semantic would impact the handling of a particular destination option ?
If there is, then it would be good to cite such an SRv6 function as another
example of the desired behavior in this draft.

I for once think that the idea of being able to modify the semantic
of option headers based on the address is potentially useful (would need
to figure out better examples), but:

If there is a relevant customer community for BIERv6 that is not interested
in SRv6, it would be better if the base functionality would not rely
on SRv6 specific concepts, but if these SRv6/SID related options would be
 part of a specific section in this document like "BIERv6 with SIDs" or so.
That way bot the IPv6, no SRv6 and IPv6+SRv6 customers would easier be
made happy.
> 
>    A packet having a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication but not having
>    a BIER option is supposed to be a wrong packet or an ICMPv6 packet,

Explain the "ICMPv6 packet" ?

>    and the process can be refered to the example in section 3.2.
> 
>    A packet not having a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication but having
>    a BIER option SHOULD be processed normally as unicast forwarding
>    procedures, which may be a behavior of drop, or send to CPU, or other
>    behaviors in existing implementations.

SHOULD be processed normally as unicast forwarding procedures AFTER
BIER replication ? E.g.: not quite sure which case yo're referring to here.
>
>    The Destination Address field in the IPv6 Header MUST change to the
>    nexthop BFR's End.BIER Unicast address in BIERv6.
> 
>    The Hop Limit field of IPv6 header MUST decrease by 1 when sending
>    packets to a BFR neighbor, while the TTL in the BIER header MUST be
>    unchanged on a Non-BIER router, or decrease by 1 on a BFR.

A non-BIER router would not operate on the BIER header or be addressed
by a BIERv6 packet, so the middle part should be deleted, as its confusing.

>    The BitString in the BIER header in the Destination Options Header
>    may change when sending packets to a neighbor.  Such change of
>    BitString MUST be aligned with the procedure defined in RFC8279.
>    Because of the requirement to change the content of the option when
>    forwarding BIERv6 packet, the BIER option type should have chg flag 1
>    per section 4.2 of RFC8200.

Maybe reorder these paragraphs in the order they are relevant, whereas
the BIER processing would preceed the unicast sending of copies.

>    The procedures applies normally if a bit corresponding to the self
>    bfr-id is set in the bit-string field of the Non-MPLS BIER header of
>    the BIERv6 packet.  The node is considered to be an Egress BFR (BFER)
>    in this case.  he BFER removes the BIERv6 header, including the IPv6
>    header and the Destination Options header, and copies the packet to
>    the multicast flow overlay.  The egress VRF of a packet may be
>    determined by a further lookup on the IPv6 source address instead of
>    the upstream-assigned MPLS Label as described in [RFC8556].

Maybe you want to structure under subsections "BFIR", "BFR" and "BFER" behavior.
In the BFER behavior it should be said that the BFER behavior is in
addition to the unchanged BFER behavior and is based on creating another
copy of the packet based on the BFER bit set, and that copy is locally
consumed as follow..

Running out of time for now, hopefully can catch up with rest later.
Very good for the document to have what looks on browsing like a
comprehensive set of environmental sections below!

Thanks a lot for the documt
    Toerless

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>    The Fragment Header, AH Header or ESP Header, if exists after the
>    BIER options header, can be processed on BFER only as part of the
>    multicast flow overlay process.
> 
> 5.  Security Considerations
> 
>    BIER IPv6 encapsulation provides a new encapsulation based on IPv6
>    and BIER to transport multicast data packet in a BIER domain.  The
>    BIER domain can be a single IGP area, an anonymous system (AS) with
>    multiple IGP areas, or multiple anonymous systems (ASes) operated by
>    a network operator.  This section reviews security considerations
>    related to the BIER IPv6 encapsulation, based on security
>    considerations of [RFC8279], [RFC8296], and other documents related
>    to IPv6 extension.
> 
>    BIER-encapsulated packets should generally not be accepted from
>    untrusted interfaces or tunnels.  For example, an operator may wish
>    to have a policy of accepting BIER-encapsulated packets only from
>    interfaces to trusted routers, and not from customer-facing
>    interfaces.  See section 5.1 for normal Intra domain deployment.
> 
>    There may be applications that require a BFR to accept a BIER-
>    encapsulated packet from an interface to a system that is not
>    controlled by the network operator.  See section 5.2 for inter domain
>    deployment.
> 
>    BIER IPv6 encapsulation may cause ICMP packet sent to BFIR and cause
>    security problems.  See section 5.3 for ICMP related problems.
> 
>    This document introduces a new option used in IPv6 Destination
>    Options Header, together with the special-use IPv6 address called
>    End.BIER in IPv6 destination address for BIER IPv6 forwarding.
>    However the option newly introduced may be wrongly used with normal
>    IPv6 destination address.  See section 5.4 for problems introduced by
>    the new IPv6 option with normal IPv6 destination address.
> 
>    If a BIER packet is altered, either the BIER header, or the multicast
>    data packet, by an intermediate router, packets may be lost, stolen,
>    or otherwise misdelivered.  BIER IPv6 encapsulation provides the
>    ability of IPsec to ensure the confidentiality or integrity.  See
>    section 5.5 for this security problem.
> 
>    A BIER router accepts and uses the End.BIER IPv6 address to construct
>    BIFT only when the IPv6 address is configured explicitly, or received
>    from a router via control-plane protocols.  The received information
>    is validated using existing authentication and security mechanisms of
>    the control-plane protocols.  BIER IPv6 encapsulation does not define
>    any additional security mechanism in existing control-plane
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>    protocols, and it inherits any security considerations that apply to
>    the control-plane protocols.
> 
> 5.1.  Intra Domain Deployment
> 
>    Generally nodes outside the BIER Domain are not trusted: they cannot
>    directly use the End.BIER of the domain.  This is enforced by two
>    levels of access control lists:
> 
>    1.  Any packet entering the BIER Domain and destined to an End.BIER
>    IPv6 Address within the BIER Domain is dropped.  This may be realized
>    with the following logic.  Other methods with equivalent outcome are
>    considered compliant:
> 
>    * allocate all the End.BIER IPv6 Address from a block S/s
> 
>    * configure each external interface of each edge node of the domain
>    with an inbound infrastructure access list (IACL) which drops any
>    incoming packet with a destination address in S/s
> 
>    * Failure to implement this method of ingress filtering exposes the
>    BIER Domain to BIER attacks as described and referenced in [RFC8296].
> 
>    2.  The distributed protection in #1 is complemented with per node
>    protection, dropping packets to End.BIER IPv6 Address from source
>    addresses outside the BIER Domain.  This may be realized with the
>    following logic.  Other methods with equivalent outcome are
>    considered compliant:
> 
>    * assign all interface addresses from prefix A/a
> 
>    * assign all the IPv6 addresses used as source address of BIER IPv6
>    packets from a block B/b
> 
>    * at node k, all End.BIER IPv6 addresses local to k are assigned from
>    prefix Sk/sk
> 
>    * configure each internal interface of each BIER node k in the BIER
>    Domain with an inbound IACL which drops any incoming packet with a
>    destination address in Sk/sk if the source address is not in A/a or
>    B/b.
> 
>    For simplicity of deployment, a configuration of IACL effective for
>    all interfaces can be provided by a router.  Such IACL can be
>    referred to as global IACL(GIACL) .Each BIER node k then simply
>    configs a GIACL which drops any incoming packet with a destination
>    address in Sk/sk if the source address is not in A/a or B/b for the
>    inter-domain deployment mode.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 5.2.  Inter Domain Deployment
> 
>    There may be applications that require a BFR to accept a BIER-
>    encapsulated packet from an interface to a system that is not
>    controlled by the network operator.  For instance, there may be an
>    application in which a virtual machine in a data center submits BIER-
>    encapsulated packets to a router.  In such a case, it is desirable to
>    verify that the packet is from a legitimate source and that its
>    BitString denotes only systems to which that source is allowed to
>    send.  Using BIER IPv6 encapsulation, IACL can be configured on each
>    internal interface of each BIER node k to allow packet with a
>    destination address in Sk/sk and the source address is in an allowed
>    list of IPv6 address.  However, the BIER IPv6 encapsulation itself
>    does not provide a way to verify that the source is legitimate or the
>    source is allowed to set any particular set of bits in the BitString.
> 
>    The IACL allowing specific IPv6 address outside the domain of a
>    network operator can be more strict by the following method:
> 
>    * configure one sub-domain using only one bit string length, and a
>    seperate End.BIER for this sub-domain as a service opened to agreed
>    source(s) outside the domain of the operator's network.
> 
>    * configure on BIER node to check if the End.BIER address of a packet
>    is the correct one bound to the sub-domain of a packet.
> 
>    * configure IACL on each interface of each BIER node k (or simply
>    configure GIACL on each BIER node k) to allow packet with an End.BIER
>    as destination address and the allowed source(s) as source address.
> 
>    This provides a way to ensure that the inter-domain source is allowed
>    to access only the BIER IPv6 transport service bound to a sub-domain
>    with a specific bit string length.
> 
> 5.3.  ICMP Error Processing
> 
>    ICMP error packets generated within the BIER Domain are sent to
>    source nodes within the BIER Domain.
> 
>    A large number of ICMP may be elicited and sent to a BFIR router, in
>    case when a BIER IPv6 packet is filled with wrong TTL, either error
>    or malfeasance.  A rate-limiting of ICMP packet should be implemented
>    on each BFR.
> 
>    The ingress node can take note of the fact that it is getting, in
>    response to BIER IPv6 packet, one or more ICMP error packets.  By
>    default, the reception of such a packets MUST be countered and
>    logged.  However, it is possible for such log entries to be "false
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>    positives" that generate a lot of "noise" in the log; therefore,
>    implementations SHOULD have a knob to disable this logging.
> 
>    OAM functions of PING and TRACE for BIER IPv6 encapsulation may also
>    need ICMP based on BIER IPv6 encapsulation and cause ICMP response
>    message containing BIER option.  The ability of seperating such OAM
>    ICMP packets from error ICMP packets caused by error is necessary for
>    the availability of OAM, otherwise the OAM function may fail due to
>    the rate-limiting of ICMP error packets.
> 
> 5.4.  Security caused by BIER option
> 
>    This document introduces a new option used in IPv6 Destination
>    Options Header.  An IPv6 packet with a normal IPv6 address of a
>    router (e.g. loopback IPv6 address of the router) as destination
>    address will possibly carry a BIER option.
> 
>    For a router incapable of BIERv6, such BIERv6 packet will not be
>    processed by the procedure described in this document, but be
>    processed as normal IPv6 packet with unknown option, and the existing
>    security considerations for handling IPv6 options apply.  Possible
>    way of handling IPv6 packets with BIER option may be send to CPU for
>    slow path processing, with rate-limiting, or be discarded according
>    to the local policy.
> 
>    For a router capable of BIERv6, such BIERv6 packet MUST NOT be
>    forwarded, but should be processed as a normal IPv6 packet with
>    unknown option, or additionally and optionally be countered and
>    logged if the router is capable of doing so.
> 
> 5.5.  Applicability of IPsec
> 
>    IPsec [RFC4301] uses two protocols to provide traffic security
>    services -- Authentication Header (AH) [RFC4302] and Encapsulating
>    Security Payload (ESP) [RFC4303].  Each protocol supports two modes
>    of use: transport mode and tunnel mode.  IPsec support both unicast
>    and multicast.  IPsec implementations MUST support ESP and MAY
>    support AH.
> 
>    This document assume IPsec working in tunnel mode with inner IPv4 or
>    IPv6 multicast packet encapsulated in outer BIERv6 header and IPsec
>    header(s).
> 
>    IPsec used with BIER IPv6 encapsulation to ensure that a BIER payload
>    is not altered while in transit between BFIR and BFERs.  If a BFR in
>    between BFIR and BFERs is compromised, there is no way to prevent the
>    compromised BFR from making illegitimate modifications to the BIER
>    payload or to prevent it from misforwarding or misdelivering the
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                [Page 14]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
>    BIER-encapsulated packet, but the BFERs will detect the illegitimate
>    modifications to the BIER Payload (or the inner multicast data
>    packet).  This could provide cryptographic integrity protection for
>    multicast data transport.  This capability of IPsec comes from the
>    design that, the destination options header carrying the BIER header
>    is located before the AH or ESP and the BFR routers in between BFIR
>    and BFERs can process the BIER header without aware of AH or ESP.
> 
>    For ESP, the Integrity Check Value (ICV) is computed over the ESP
>    header, Payload, and ESP trailer fields.  It doesn't require the IP
>    or extension header for ICV calculating, and thus the change of DA
>    and BIER option data does not affect the function of ESP.
> 
>    For AH, the Integrity Check Value (ICV) is computed over the IP or
>    extension header fields before the AH header, the AH header, and the
>    Payload.  The IPv6 DA is immutable for unicast traffic in AH, and the
>    change of DA in BIER IPv6 forwarding for multicast traffic is
>    incompatible to this rule.  How AH is extended to support multicast
>    traffic transporting through BIER IPv6 encapsulation is outside the
>    scope of this document.
> 
>    The detailed control-plane for BIER IPv6 encapsulation IPsec function
>    is outside the scope of the document.  Internet Key Exchange Protocol
>    Version 2 (IKEv2) [RFC5996] and Group Security Association (GSA)
>    [RFC5374] can be referred to for further studying.
> 
> 6.  IANA Considerations
> 
> 6.1.  BIER Option Type
> 
>    Allocation is expected from IANA for a BIER Option Type codepoint
>    from the "Destination Options and Hop-by-Hop Options" sub-registry of
>    the "Internet Protocol Version 6 (IPv6) Parameters" registry.  The
>    value 0x70 is suggested.
> 
>            +-----------+-----+-----+-------+-------------+------------+
>            | Hex Value | act | chg |  rest | Description | Reference  |
>            +-----------+-----+-----+-------+-------------+------------+
>            |    0x70   |  01 |  1  | 10000 | BIER Option | This draft |
>            +-----------+-----+-----+-------+-------------+------------+
> 
> 6.2.  End.BIER Function
> 
>    Allocation is expected from IANA for an End.BIER function codepoint
>    from the "SRv6 Endpoint Behaviors" sub-registry.  The value 60 is
>    suggested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                [Page 15]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
>            +-------+--------+--------------------------+------------+
>            | Value |  Hex   |    Endpoint function     | Reference  |
>            +-------+--------+--------------------------+------------+
>            | TBD   |  TBD   |    End.BIER              | This draft |
>            +-------+--------+--------------------------+------------+
> 
> 6.3.  BIER Next Protocol Identifiers
> 
>    Allocation is expected from IANA for a BIER Proto codepoint from the
>    "BIER Next Protocol Identifiers" sub-registry.
> 
>       TBD1: Delivering the packet with VRF lookup in IPv6 source address
> 
> 7.  Acknowledgements
> 
>    The authors would like to thank Stig Venaas for his valuable
>    comments.  Thanks IJsbrand Wijnands, Greg Shepherd, Tony Przygienda,
>    Toerless Eckert, Jeffrey Zhang for the helpful comments to improve
>    this document.
> 
>    Thanks Aijun Wang for comments about BIER OAM function in BIER IPv6
>    encapsulation.
> 
>    Thanks Mach Chen for review and suggestions about BIER-PING function
>    in BIER IPv6 encapsulation.
> 
> 8.  Contributors
> 
>    Gang Yan
> 
>    Huawei Technologies
> 
>    China
> 
>    Email: yangang@huawei.com
> 
>    Yang(Yolanda) Xia
> 
>    Huawei Technologies
> 
>    China
> 
>    Email: yolanda.xia@huawei.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                [Page 16]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
> 9.  References
> 
> 9.1.  Normative References
> 
>    [RFC4301]  Kent, S. and K. Seo, "Security Architecture for the
>               Internet Protocol", RFC 4301, DOI 10.17487/RFC4301,
>               December 2005, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4301>.
> 
>    [RFC4302]  Kent, S., "IP Authentication Header", RFC 4302,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC4302, December 2005,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4302>.
> 
>    [RFC4303]  Kent, S., "IP Encapsulating Security Payload (ESP)",
>               RFC 4303, DOI 10.17487/RFC4303, December 2005,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4303>.
> 
>    [RFC5374]  Weis, B., Gross, G., and D. Ignjatic, "Multicast
>               Extensions to the Security Architecture for the Internet
>               Protocol", RFC 5374, DOI 10.17487/RFC5374, November 2008,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5374>.
> 
>    [RFC5996]  Kaufman, C., Hoffman, P., Nir, Y., and P. Eronen,
>               "Internet Key Exchange Protocol Version 2 (IKEv2)",
>               RFC 5996, DOI 10.17487/RFC5996, September 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5996>.
> 
>    [RFC6275]  Perkins, C., Ed., Johnson, D., and J. Arkko, "Mobility
>               Support in IPv6", RFC 6275, DOI 10.17487/RFC6275, July
>               2011, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6275>.
> 
>    [RFC8200]  Deering, S. and R. Hinden, "Internet Protocol, Version 6
>               (IPv6) Specification", STD 86, RFC 8200,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8200, July 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8200>.
> 
>    [RFC8279]  Wijnands, IJ., Ed., Rosen, E., Ed., Dolganow, A.,
>               Przygienda, T., and S. Aldrin, "Multicast Using Bit Index
>               Explicit Replication (BIER)", RFC 8279,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8279, November 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8279>.
> 
>    [RFC8296]  Wijnands, IJ., Ed., Rosen, E., Ed., Dolganow, A.,
>               Tantsura, J., Aldrin, S., and I. Meilik, "Encapsulation
>               for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) in MPLS and Non-
>               MPLS Networks", RFC 8296, DOI 10.17487/RFC8296, January
>               2018, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8296>.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                [Page 17]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
>    [RFC8556]  Rosen, E., Ed., Sivakumar, M., Przygienda, T., Aldrin, S.,
>               and A. Dolganow, "Multicast VPN Using Bit Index Explicit
>               Replication (BIER)", RFC 8556, DOI 10.17487/RFC8556, April
>               2019, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8556>.
> 
> 9.2.  Informative References
> 
>    [I-D.ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements]
>               McBride, M., Xie, J., Dhanaraj, S., and R. Asati, "BIER
>               IPv6 Requirements", draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-03
>               (work in progress), November 2019.
> 
>    [I-D.ietf-bier-ping]
>               Kumar, N., Pignataro, C., Akiya, N., Zheng, L., Chen, M.,
>               and G. Mirsky, "BIER Ping and Trace", draft-ietf-bier-
>               ping-06 (work in progress), October 2019.
> 
>    [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming]
>               Filsfils, C., Camarillo, P., Leddy, J., Voyer, D.,
>               Matsushima, S., and Z. Li, "SRv6 Network Programming",
>               draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-07 (work in
>               progress), December 2019.
> 
>    [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
>               Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC2119, March 1997,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2119>.
> 
>    [RFC8174]  Leiba, B., "Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC
>               2119 Key Words", BCP 14, RFC 8174, DOI 10.17487/RFC8174,
>               May 2017, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8174>.
> 
> Authors' Addresses
> 
>    Jingrong Xie
>    Huawei Technologies
> 
>    Email: xiejingrong@huawei.com
> 
> 
>    Liang Geng
>    China Mobile
>    Beijing 10053
> 
>    Email: gengliang@chinamobile.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                [Page 18]
> 
> Internet-Draft       Encapsulation for BIER in IPv6         January 2020
> 
> 
>    Mike McBride
>    Futurewei
> 
>    Email: mmcbride7@gmail.com
> 
> 
>    Rajiv Asati
>    Cisco
> 
>    Email: rajiva@cisco.com
> 
> 
>    Senthil Dhanaraj
>    Huawei
> 
>    Email: senthil.dhanaraj@huawei.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> Xie, et al.               Expires July 17, 2020                [Page 19]


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Comments on subject document inline. Thanks a lot for the work.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> BIER                                                            Z. Zhang
> Internet-Draft                                           ZTE Corporation
> Intended status: Standards Track                           A. Przygienda
> Expires: July 11, 2020                            Juniper Networks, Inc.
>                                                              I. Wijnands
>                                                            Cisco Systems
>                                                               H. Bidgoli
>                                                                    Nokia
>                                                               M. McBride
>                                                                Futurewei
>                                                          January 8, 2020
> 
> 
>                          BIER in IPv6 (BIERin6)
>                       draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
> 
> Abstract
> 
>    BIER is a new architecture for the forwarding of multicast data
>    packets.  This document defines native IPv6 encapsulation for BIER
>    hop-by-hop forwarding or BIERin6 for short.

Would suggest to change to something that does not say "native", because
the option described in this document of using ethernet-nonMPLS-BIER-IPv6 
encapsulation might not be seen as "native IPv6 encap" by IPv6
purists.

Propose:

"This document defines encapsulation hop-by-hop BIER forwarding for
IPv6, non-MPLS networks called BIERin6."

> Requirements Language
> 
>    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
>    "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
>    document are to be interpreted as described in RFC2119.
> 
> Status of This Memo
> 
>    This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
>    provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.
> 
>    Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
>    Task Force (IETF).  Note that other groups may also distribute
>    working documents as Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
>    Drafts is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.
> 
>    Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>    and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>    time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>    material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
> 
>    This Internet-Draft will expire on July 11, 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zhang, et al.             Expires July 11, 2020                 [Page 1]
> 
> Internet-Draft                   BIERv6                     January 2020
> 
> 
> Copyright Notice
> 
>    Copyright (c) 2020 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
>    document authors.  All rights reserved.
> 
>    This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
>    Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
>    (https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
>    publication of this document.  Please review these documents
>    carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect
>    to this document.  Code Components extracted from this document must
>    include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of
>    the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as
>    described in the Simplified BSD License.
> 
> Table of Contents
> 
>    1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   2
>    2.  IPv6 Header . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
>      2.1.  IPv6 Options Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
>    3.  BIER Header . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4
>    4.  IPv6 Encapsulation Advertisement  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4
>      4.1.  Format  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4
>      4.2.  Inter-area prefix redistribution  . . . . . . . . . . . .   5
>    5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   5
>    6.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   5
>    7.  Acknowledgement . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   5
>    8.  References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   5
>      8.1.  Normative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   6
>      8.2.  Informative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   6
>    Authors' Addresses  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   7
> 
> 1.  Introduction
> 
>    BIER [RFC8279] is a new architecture for the forwarding of multicast
>    data packets.  It provides optimal forwarding through a "multicast
>    domain" and it does not necessarily precondition construction of a
>    multicast distribution tree, nor does it require intermediate nodes
>    to maintain any per-flow state.
> 
>    This document specifies non-MPLS BIER forwarding in an IPv6 [RFC8200]
>    environment, refferred to as BIERin6, using non-MPLS BIER
>    encapsulation specified in [RFC8296].

This version of the sentence could also go into the abstract ;-)

>    MPLS BIER forwarding in IPv6 is outside the scope of this document.
> 
>    This document uses terminology defined in [RFC8279] and [RFC8296].
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Internet-Draft                   BIERv6                     January 2020
> 
> 
>    [RFC8296] defines the BIER encapsulation format in MPLS and non-MPLS
>    environment.  In case of non-MPLS environment, a BIER packet is the
>    payload of an "outer" encapsulation, which has a "next protocol"
>    codepoint that is set to a value that means "non-MPLS BIER".
> 
>    That can be used as is in a pure IPv6 non-mpls environment.  Between
>    two directly connected BFRs, a BIER header could directly follow link
>    layer header, e.g., an Ethernet header (with the Ethertype set to
>    0xAB37).  If a BFR needs to tunnel BIER packets to another BFR, e.g.
     ^^^^^^^^

Please add reference "according to RFC8296 section 2.2.3.

>    per [RFC8279] Section 6.9,

It would be worth IMHO to describe here that section RFC8279 6.9 describes
mechanisms to support partial BIER deployment by automatically calculating
non-adjacent downstream BFR and then uses tunneling to them to hop
over the non-BIER capable routers.

>    IPv6 encapsulation can be used, with the
>    destination address being the downstream BFR and the Next Header
>    field set to a to-be-assigned value for "non-MPLS BIER".

Would be clearer to state that RFC8279 does not prescribe an IPv6
next header type to encapsulate BIER into IPv6, but that this document
does this and uses the name "non-MPLS BIER" for it.

Also RFC8296 already uses the term "non-MPLS BIER" for Ethertype
0xAB37, so it would be an overload (*gasp* ;-) of that term to
also use it for a TBD IPv6 Next Header codepoint. Maybe come up with
another name for the TBD codepoint or use "non-MPLS BIER Ethertype"
vs. "non-MPLS BIER IPv6 NH".

>    The IPv6 encapsulation could be used even between two directly
>    connected BFRs in the following two cases:
> 
>    o  An operator mandates all traffic to be carried in IPv6.

An example (like on belows point) would help to motivate this.

IPv6-only forwarding plane features such as monitoring or filtering come to mind.

>    o  A BFR does not have BIER support in its "fast forwarding path" and
>       relies on "slow/software forwarding path", e.g. in environments
>       like [RFC7368] where high throughput multicast forwarding
>       performance is not critical.
> 
> 2.  IPv6 Header
> 
>    Whenever IPv6 encapsulation is used for BIER forwarding, The Next
>    Header field in the IPv6 Header (if there are no extension headers),
>    or the Next Header field in the last extension header is set to TBD,
>    indicating that the payload is a BIER packet.

Maybe use numbered TBD (TBD1) and introduce that TBD1 above where you first
talk about it.

>    If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination address in
>    IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor's link-local address on this
>    router's outgoing interface, the source destination address SHOULD be
>    this router's link-local address on the outgoing interface, and the
>    IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.

I've started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i
have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have
seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6 
link-local addresses and TTL=1.

Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this
as an issue.

If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated
than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the
text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for
subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=1, and that
too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:
HL/TTL=1 -> MUST punt (software processing).

>    Otherwise, the destination address SHOULD
>    be the BIER prefix of the BFR neighbor, the source address SHOULD be
>    this router's BIER prefix, and the TTL MUST be large enough to get
>    the packet to the BFR neighbor.

(Hop-limit, not TTL, MLD, not IGMP, everything gets better by new names ;-).

>    The Flow-ID in the IPv6 packet SHOULD be copied from the entropy
>    field in the BIER encapsulation.
> 
> 2.1.  IPv6 Options Considerations
> 
>    RFC 8200 section 4, defines the IPv6 extension headers.  Currently
>    there are two defined extension headers, Hop-by-Hop and Destination
>    options header, which can carry a variable number of options.  These

draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is Routing Header, not Hop-by-Hop or Destination.

>    extension headers are inserted by the source node.
> 
> 
> 
> Zhang, et al.             Expires July 11, 2020                 [Page 3]
> 
> Internet-Draft                   BIERv6                     January 2020
> 
> 
>    For directly connected BIER routers, IPv6 Hop-by-Hop or Destination
>    options are irrelevant and SHOULD NOT be inserted by BFIR on the
>    BIERin6 packet.  In this case IPv6 header, Next Header field should
>    be set to TBD.  Any IPv6 packet arriving on BFRs and BFERs, with
>    multiple extension header where the last extension header has a Next
>    Header field set to TBD, SHOULD be discard and the node should
>    transmit an ICMP Parameter Problem message to the source of the
>    packet (BFIR) with an ICMP code value of TBD10 ('invalid options for
>    BIERin6').
> 
>    This also indicates that for disjoint BIER routers using IPv6

disjoint == Non subnet-adjacent ?

>    encapsulation, there SHOULD NOT be any IPv6 Hop-by-Hop or Destination
>    options be present in a BIERin6 packet.

This is a bit confusing, first you write what seems to only apply to
adjacent BFR, then in the next paragraph you seem to expand it to 
non-adjacent BFR. Maybe rewrite so it says you do not like hop-by-hop
options and destination options whether the BFR are adjacent or not ?

Don't have a strong opinion content wise. In general,
this is kinda safe and may make implementations easier, and can always
be superceeded by anothre RFC when there is an interesting option
in he future we would like to use with this encap. On the other hand, if/when
there is such an option header, there MUST be another RFC to make it
applicable to this RFC (by overriding it).

>    In this case, if additional
>    traffic engineering is required, IPv6 tunneling (i.e.  BIERin6 over
>    SRv6) can be implemented.

Given how the model described in this draft (source address is the sending BFR, not
the BFIR), is really end-to-end BIER (not end-to-end IPv6), i think 
each (adjacent, non-adjacent) BIER-hops IPv6 encapsulation is indeed IPv6
tunneling, so it is confusing/incorrect to use the term "IPv6 tunneling"
here only in the context of SRv6.

I would propose to improve the text to introduce the notion of "IPv6 tunneling"
earlier and explain at the point earlier where you start to dsicuss
option headers, that routing-headers are fine. 

If you want to use a much longer used form of IPv6 routing header than
SRv6 SRH, use the RPL Source Routing Header (RFC6554). Its also much more
widely deployed (millions of routers)

> 3.  BIER Header
> 
>    The BIER header MUST be encoded per Section 4.2 of [RFC8296].
> 
>    The BIFT-id is either encoded per
>    [I-D.ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding] or per advertised by BFRs, as
>    specificed in [I-D.dhanaraj-bier-lsr-ethernet-extensions].
> 
> 4.  IPv6 Encapsulation Advertisement

Seems like it would help to restructure 2,3 under forwarding plane and 4
a=under control/routing-plane sections ?

Also: Didn't i remember something from Alia saying that future control plane
work should be done in LSR ? I may be wrong. Just wondering if this section
can still be in this draft. Would make life easier, but we're still IETF.. ;-)

>    When IPv6 encapsulation is not required between directly connected
>    BFRs, no signaling in addition to that specified in
>    [I-D.dhanaraj-bier-lsr-ethernet-extensions] is needed.
> 
>    Otherwise, a node that requires IPv6 encapsualtion MUST advertise the
>    BIER IPv6 transportation sub-TLV/sub-sub-TLV according to local
>    configuration or policy in the BIER domain to request other BFRs to
>    always use IPv6 encapsulation.
> 
>    In presence of multiple encapsulation possibilities hop-by-hop it is
>    a matter of local policy which encapsulation is imposed and the
>    receiving router MUST accept all encapsulations that it advertised.
> 
> 4.1.  Format
> 
>    The BIER IPv6 transportation is a new sub-TLV of BIER defined in OSPF
>    [RFC8444], and a new sub-sub-TLV of BIER Info sub-TLV defined in ISIS
>    [RFC8401].
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zhang, et al.             Expires July 11, 2020                 [Page 4]
> 
> Internet-Draft                   BIERv6                     January 2020
> 
> 
>          0                   1                   2                   3
>          0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>         +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>         |    Type       |   Length      |
>         +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
>    o  Type: For OSPF, value TBD1 (prefer 12) is used to indicate it is
>       the IPv6 transportation sub-TLV.  For ISIS, value TBD2 (prefer 3)
>       is used to indicate it is the IPv6 transportation sub-sub-TLV.
> 
>    o  Length: 0.

Not quite sure about the policies (others in the WG will know better):
Should this document be "Updates" to those two RFCs ?

If i where to implement ISIS/OSPF for BIER (or troubleshoot it on the wirese,
write wireshark modules, etc. pp), marking this document an
update would help to find it, but technically, this is just an extension,
not changing anything, so i am not sure if it even can be an update.

The other point is whether or not to distinguish if link-local or
BFR address are supported for IPv6 encapsulation. Given my past pain
with IPv6 link-local HW support, i would certainly like to see
the ability to announce what amounts to "this node can only encap/decap
for its BFR address, but not link-local - but please send me also
to that address if you're subnet adjacent".

> 4.2.  Inter-area prefix redistribution
> 
>    When BFR-prefixes are advertised across IGP areas per
>    [I-D.dhanaraj-bier-lsr-ethernet-extensions] or redistributed across
>    protocol boundaries per [I-D.zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute], the BIER
>    IPv6 transportation sub-TLV or sub-sub-TLV MAY be re-advertised/re-
>    distributed as well.

Ok, what is missing up to here is an upfront explanation that this draft is 
end-to-end (BFIR to BFER) BIER with hop-by-hop L2 encap and/or
IPv6 tunnels. And discuss the implications. For example, you will not
get ICMP error messages all the way back to the BFIR as you would get
in a model where forwarding was hop-by-hop IPv6 (plus BIER). I have
no opinions how relevant this is, but today if an SP does end-to-end
IPv6, then he would get forwarding errors back to the encap router in
his network (assuiming that customer traffic is IPv6 encapsulated there).
Likewise, there is no end-to-end PMTUD from IPv6 supported in this model

(which i think is stupid anyhow for multicast, so i am not saying this
 as an argument against this method, just to make sure that users coming
 from IPv6 understand all the implications).

> 5.  IANA Considerations
> 
>    IANA is requested to assign a new "BIER" type for "Next Header" in
>    the "Assigned Internet Protocol Numbers" registry.

BIERin6 ?

>    IANA is requested to assign a new "BIERin6" type for "invalid
>    options" in the "ICMP code value" registry.
> 
>    IANA is requested to assign a new "BIER IPv6 transportation Sub-TLV"
>    type in the "OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV Sub-TLVs" Registry.

I would prefer "tunnel" instead of transport given how a new IPv6
header is added.

>    IANA is requested to set up a new "BIER IPv6 transportation Sub-sub-
>    TLV" type in the "IS-IS BIER Info sub-TLV" Registry.

same here.

> 6.  Security Considerations
> 
>    General IPv6 and BIER security considerations apply.

I am sure someone will have more security consideration ideas, but not me, not today . ;-)

> 7.  Acknowledgement
> 
>    The authors would like to thank Jeffrey Zhang for his review and
>    valuable contributions.
> 
> 8.  References
> 

Thanks a lot for the document

Toerless
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zhang, et al.             Expires July 11, 2020                 [Page 5]
> 
> Internet-Draft                   BIERv6                     January 2020
> 
> 
> 8.1.  Normative References
> 
>    [RFC8200]  Deering, S. and R. Hinden, "Internet Protocol, Version 6
>               (IPv6) Specification", STD 86, RFC 8200,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8200, July 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8200>.
> 
>    [RFC8279]  Wijnands, IJ., Ed., Rosen, E., Ed., Dolganow, A.,
>               Przygienda, T., and S. Aldrin, "Multicast Using Bit Index
>               Explicit Replication (BIER)", RFC 8279,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8279, November 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8279>.
> 
>    [RFC8296]  Wijnands, IJ., Ed., Rosen, E., Ed., Dolganow, A.,
>               Tantsura, J., Aldrin, S., and I. Meilik, "Encapsulation
>               for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) in MPLS and Non-
>               MPLS Networks", RFC 8296, DOI 10.17487/RFC8296, January
>               2018, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8296>.
> 
>    [RFC8401]  Ginsberg, L., Ed., Przygienda, T., Aldrin, S., and Z.
>               Zhang, "Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) Support via
>               IS-IS", RFC 8401, DOI 10.17487/RFC8401, June 2018,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8401>.
> 
>    [RFC8444]  Psenak, P., Ed., Kumar, N., Wijnands, IJ., Dolganow, A.,
>               Przygienda, T., Zhang, J., and S. Aldrin, "OSPFv2
>               Extensions for Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER)",
>               RFC 8444, DOI 10.17487/RFC8444, November 2018,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8444>.
> 
> 8.2.  Informative References
> 
>    [I-D.dhanaraj-bier-lsr-ethernet-extensions]
>               Dhanaraj, S., Wijnands, I., Psenak, P., Zhang, Z., Yan,
>               G., and J. Xie, "LSR Extensions for BIER over Ethernet",
>               draft-dhanaraj-bier-lsr-ethernet-extensions-00 (work in
>               progress), January 2019.
> 
>    [I-D.ietf-bier-bar-ipa]
>               Zhang, Z., Przygienda, T., Dolganow, A., Bidgoli, H.,
>               Wijnands, I., and A. Gulko, "BIER Underlay Path
>               Calculation Algorithm and Constraints", draft-ietf-bier-
>               bar-ipa-06 (work in progress), November 2019.
> 
>    [I-D.ietf-bier-idr-extensions]
>               Xu, X., Chen, M., Patel, K., Wijnands, I., and T.
>               Przygienda, "BGP Extensions for BIER", draft-ietf-bier-
>               idr-extensions-07 (work in progress), September 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> Zhang, et al.             Expires July 11, 2020                 [Page 6]
> 
> Internet-Draft                   BIERv6                     January 2020
> 
> 
>    [I-D.ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding]
>               Wijnands, I., Xu, X., and H. Bidgoli, "An Optional
>               Encoding of the BIFT-id Field in the non-MPLS BIER
>               Encapsulation", draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding-02
>               (work in progress), August 2019.
> 
>    [I-D.zhang-bier-babel-extensions]
>               Zhang, Z. and T. Przygienda, "BIER in BABEL", draft-zhang-
>               bier-babel-extensions-02 (work in progress), November
>               2019.
> 
>    [I-D.zwzw-bier-prefix-redistribute]
>               Zhang, Z., Bo, W., Zhang, Z., and I. Wijnands, "BIER
>               Prefix Redistribute", draft-zwzw-bier-prefix-
>               redistribute-03 (work in progress), September 2019.
> 
>    [RFC7368]  Chown, T., Ed., Arkko, J., Brandt, A., Troan, O., and J.
>               Weil, "IPv6 Home Networking Architecture Principles",
>               RFC 7368, DOI 10.17487/RFC7368, October 2014,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7368>.
> 
> Authors' Addresses
> 
>    Zheng(Sandy) Zhang
>    ZTE Corporation
> 
>    EMail: zzhang_ietf@hotmail.com
> 
> 
>    Tony Przygienda
>    Juniper Networks, Inc.
> 
>    EMail: prz@juniper.net
> 
> 
>    IJsbrand Wijnands
>    Cisco Systems
> 
>    EMail: ice@cisco.com
> 
> 
>    Hooman Bidgoli
>    Nokia
> 
>    EMail: hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zhang, et al.             Expires July 11, 2020                 [Page 7]
> 
> Internet-Draft                   BIERv6                     January 2020
> 
> 
>    Mike McBride
>    Futurewei
> 
>    EMail: mmcbride@futurewei.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Zhang, et al.             Expires July 11, 2020                 [Page 8]


From nobody Wed Mar 11 21:29:16 2020
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 05:29:05 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, bier-ads@ietf.org, draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org, BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Bier] comments re the two IPv6 encapsulation drafts (was: Re: Request an adoption call) ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
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Just glanced through both documents (draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation,
draft-zhang-bier-bierin6). Thanks a lot for the work.

draft-zhang seems to have a lot more security/deployment considerations
i haven't gotten to read through yet, i would hope any final document
would have a good amount of such type of information as well.

Neither document has a comparison with the other, and however we
go forward, i would very much hope that the choices made will
be compared and disccussed vs. the choices not made in a final document.
And if we start now comparing the options, it could help to conclude
on a more technical basis than "mayority of authors" or the like.

IMHO the differences are not very big in their core. Seems like Sandy's
draft proposes to use a BIER in IPv6 Next-Header (NH) and Xiejing's draft
proposes to use a destination  option header. Xiejing's draft also has
ideas how to embed the functionality more with SRv6/SID concepts
which seems like an interesting idea for BIER in SRv6 networks.
Not sure if this could be done equally with NH encoding.

I would hesitate to decide on the header encap choice solely 
within BIER: While in general, BIER can do a lot of decisions all by itself,
i think when it comes to IPv6 encapsulation, its probably good
to also ask v6ops/6man/spring about their opinions first:

Even if we do not want to bother about their preference, we may
want to bother about any showstoppers they might raise later in
IETF/IESG review.

Have both of these approaches been presented in v6ops/6man/spring
and asked for preferences vs. the other option ? If yes, then
where would i find a summary of the feedback ? (hint: sections
to be removed by RFC editor are a great way to avoid having
to search through a long mailing list like bier or IETF meetng
notes).

Finally: Personally i mostly care if/how either of these options
differ in the capability to be broadly adopted in HW accelerated
forwarding plane at max speed. If there are certain principles
that make one option better than the other, it would be good to
document. And i hope the folks with HW knowledge would not solely
judge from them being author on a particular document.

One point related to forwarding efficiency and comparison
between the documents:

In Sandy's draft there is the option for per BIER-hop
to use "only" L2 encap or IPv6 encap. Those BIER-hops look like
a nice optimization, but from at least some of the forwarding
planes i know, it would be faster not to have to do
IPv6 encap/decap on many hops along the path,
because some are L2 BIER capable and some not, but to keep
the IPv6 header and just do address-field(s) rewrite
(and of course Bitstring rewrite).

Given how we assume SPF IGPs, i think the best choice would
be for the BFIR to determine if the SPF path is completely
L2 capable and then send with L2 header, else send with
L3 header and BFRs would actually forward with the header
they received the packet with (L2 or L3).

Note that i think that Xiejing's draft cold equally support
the L2 encap options if desired. But 'd first figure out
if we really need that "mixed" forwarding.

Cheers
    Toerless


On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 07:43:34AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> I will try to get on call with Greg this week if we manage to find the time
> and we'll look @ the minutes/new version of draft and direct further ...
> 
> thanks
> 
> --- tony
> 
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 7:10 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jingrong,
> >
> >
> > Sorry, I don't know you can't remember that there is consensus with the
> > irrelevance between BIER and SRv6.
> >
> > SRv6 doesn't exist in BIER charter at all. So I mention it again for
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation.
> >
> >
> > The homenet is one of the deployment of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
> > ).
> >
> > About the draft process, I believe that chair control the WG process
> > reasonably.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> > ????????????
> > *????????????*Xiejingrong(Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> > *????????????*??????00007940;
> > *????????????*bier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@ietf.org>;bier@ietf.org <
> > bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ietf.org <bier-ads@ietf.org>;
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org <
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org>;
> > *??? ??? ???*2020???03???10??? 18:15
> > *??? ??? ???**RE: Re:Request an adoption call
> > ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05*
> >
> > Dear Sandy,
> >
> >
> >
> > I suppose I have addressed all the comments received on the
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, and that???s the main point in my request
> > of adoption in Jan 2020 and today.
> >
> > Please point out what???s the comments that haven???t addressed.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for remind me the IETF105 meeting minutes.
> >
> > I don???t know why that said thing ???Take it to list??? didn???t happen after 7
> > months !
> >
> > Is it assumed that some questions are not addressed or not clear ---- for
> > example, security considerations? Or the said ???Primary intended use is
> > HOMENET??? does not explicitly declared in the document ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Jingrong
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn]
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 4:59 PM
> > *To:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> > *Cc:* bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; bier-ads@ietf.org;
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org
> > *Subject:* Re:Request an adoption call
> > ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Jingrong,
> >
> >
> >
> > Before being in adoption call, you may need to solve all the question
> > about (draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation) at first (in meeting and
> > mailing list).
> >
> > Its a pit that you didn't konw the consensus withdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6
> > even if you were on BIER WG bluesheet in IETF105# (
> > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/105/bluesheets/bluesheets-105-bier-201907241330-00.pdf
> > ).
> >
> > Please have a look at the minutes again (
> > https://tools.ietf.org/wg/bier/minutes?item=minutes-105-bier-01.html).
> >
> > I think it's a baseline that the draft has gotten consensus in WG before
> > it's taken to the adoption list.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW: You may have misunderstanding about WG secretary.
> >
> > AFAIK, WG secretary just does WG routine work, and there is no
> > relationship with technology discussion and routine work.
> >
> > Let's back to the technology discussion. Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> >
> > ????????????
> >
> > *????????????*Xiejingrong(Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> >
> > *????????????*??????00007940;
> >
> > *????????????*bier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@ietf.org>;bier@ietf.org <
> > bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ietf.org <bier-ads@ietf.org>;
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org <
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org>;
> >
> > *??? ??? ???*2020???03???10??? 15:57
> >
> > *??? ??? ???RE: Re:Request an adoption call
> > ondraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05*
> >
> > Dear Sandy,
> >
> >
> >
> > With all due respect, I am curious whether you speak as individual or WG
> > secretary.
> >
> >
> >
> > More comments inline.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Jingrong
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:*zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn
> > <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>]
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 2:57 PM
> > *To:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> > *Cc:* bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; bier-ads@ietf.org;
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org
> > *Subject:* Re:Request an adoption call on
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Jingrong,
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think this solution (draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation) has gotten
> > consensus in BIER working group.
> >
> > [XJR] I think an adoption call is to verify the existence of consensus,
> > rather than reverse.
> >
> > However, there is another BIER IPv6 solution (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6)
> > has gotten consensus in the WG.
> >
> > [XJR] This claim of consensus looks even more strange to me, as you are
> > one author of this draft, and also the secretary of BIER WG. I believe only
> > WG chairs or AD  can declare such  consensus.
> >
> > The latest presentation is in IETF105# and it has been in adoption list.
> >
> > BTW: I don't think there is straight relationship with BIER and SRv6.
> > But draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 works well with SRv6 without any extra
> > specification.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ????????????
> >
> > *????????????*Xiejingrong(Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
> >
> > *????????????*bier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@ietf.org>;
> >
> > *????????????*BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ietf.org <bier-ads@ietf.org>;
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org <
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org>;
> >
> > *??? ??? ???*2020???03???10???10:37
> >
> > *??? ??? ???RE: Request an adoption call on draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05*
> >
> > Dear WG Chairs,
> >
> >
> >
> > We've just updated a new revision of bier-ipv6-encapsulation. Main updates:
> >
> > 1. Use the Next Header value 143 for Ethernet packet in IP/IPv6.
> >
> > 2. Update the ???security consideration??? section. further includes:
> >
> > 2.1 Explain the BIER domain and BIER sub-domain that may spanning multiple
> > ASes operated by a single operator.
> >
> > 2.2 Simply refer the security considerations of Inter-domain deployment to
> > RFC8296, and remove the section 5.2 ???Inter-domain deployment???.
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation/
> >
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-06
> >
> >
> >
> > The first update about Next Header value 143 is based on the significant
> > progress of Native IPv6 solution that is happening in industry, below for
> > reference:
> >
> > SRv6 PGM (in its LC) has applied the Proto value 143 for Ethernet packet
> > in IP/IPv6:
> >
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/
> >
> >
> >
> > The second update is based on the Tony???s comment before IETF106 about
> > security deployment, and suggestion from Dirk recently.
> >
> > We hope this could address the concerns about security deployment of
> > BIERv6, as well as other comments received on IETF106:
> >
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/1DP5hGPrPsiC3OE5skm2yaN6tQM/
> >
> >
> >
> > Again, we believe this draft is stable and ready for adoption, and the
> > BIER WG charter item 7 "BIER natively in IPv6" should advance.
> >
> > Thank you very much for consideration!
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Jingrong
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org <bier-bounces@ietf.org>]*On
> > Behalf Of *Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
> > *Sent:* Thursday, January 23, 2020 9:27 AM
> > *To:* bier-chairs@ietf.org
> > *Cc:* BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>;bier-ads@ietf.org;
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org
> > *Subject:* [Bier] Request an adoption call on
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear WG Chairs:
> >
> >
> >
> > We would like to request an adoption call on
> > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.
> >
> > We've presented this proposal for about two years and it had led to the
> > writing and adoption of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements.
> >
> > We've addressed the comments received in the past 2 years.
> >
> > We've seen lots of interest on the draft.
> >
> > We believe it is stable and ready for adoption.
> >
> > We think the charter item 7 "BIER natively in IPv6" should advance.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for consideration.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW:
> >
> > I will be in spring festival for the coming 7 days but I can read the list
> > anytime.
> >
> > Happy spring festival to those who have.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jingrong (on behalf of the authors and contributors)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


From nobody Wed Mar 11 21:37:14 2020
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 05:37:03 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, iana@iana.org, bier-ads@ietf.org, BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Ethertype for non-MPLS BIER suggestion
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I never finalized getting ethertypes from IEEE
myself yet, so not sure about the processes.

Would be nice if IANA or some other designated entity
could take ownership of these assignments, right now 
the 8 ethertypes mentioning drafts which are all RFCs
now are all over the place. "TRILL WG", routing-area
or even "Cisco" (SFC/NSH).


On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:01:39PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> oh, I see. no idea what the proper "update" procedure in IEEE is. Someone
> feels like ferreting that out?
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:00 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I'm surprised, there was an official liaison and assignment from IEEE of
> > the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having filed _the_ forms
> > ;-) for her ...
> >
> > --- tony
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear IANA, BIER leadership
> >>
> >> Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE
> >> procedures),
> >> but:
> >>
> >> I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the following
> >> record with IEEE:
> >>
> >> http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt
> >>
> >>
> >> AB37                          IETF Routing Area   Please read
> >> draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at
> >>                               5177 Brandin Court
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/.
> >>
> >>                               Fremont  CA  94538
> >>
> >>                               US
> >>
> >> Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296
> >>
> >> And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of
> >> "draft-ietf" in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>     Toerless
> >>
> >> P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at the
> >> LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD's ? (don't
> >> answer, just kidding).
> >>
> >

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
CC: <bier@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-bier-te-arch.ad@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER-TE -07 uploaded (was: Re: Pls "vote" on name (draft-ietf-bier-te-arch))
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Stay tuned, I'll try to send the text over the weekend, but it may be next 
week....

----------
On March 11, 2020 9:05:08 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 07:42:31PM -0400, Lou Berger wrote:
>> 
>> On 3/11/2020 6:12 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
>> > I had hoped to receive a followup from Lou re. his suggestion for
>> > additional text about "Traffic Engineering".
>> 
>> Sorry I didn't see any message seriously asking for input into the document,
>> public or private or otherwise.Â 
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/5SMrtPDgBo861DVf4ZcstXL1b78/
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/lNsrv3d28gHiOPSnVe9TpLUM_z4/
> PM March 5th "Subject: Lou: Re: [Bier] Pls "vote" on name 
> (draft-ietf-bier-te-arch)"
>
>> As I stated previously, I'm happy to
>> provide such. I'll try to produce it over the weekend, but it may be into
>> next week.Â  Things are a bit busy for the moment -- I haven't even been able
>> to keep up on the IETF list entertainment!
>
> As i said in my mails, i am completely unclear as to what you would
> want to write, and its not clear to me either why it better would go
> into this document than into the planned TEAS framework document.
>
> Would be happy to also have a quick voice call if you prefer that.
>
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>



From nobody Thu Mar 12 06:20:01 2020
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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt
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Hi Toerless,
Really appreciate for your thorough comments so far!
I will answer these comments carefully one by one in the following few days=
.

>> Running out of time for now, hopefully can catch up with rest later.
Please do go ahead for the rest when you find time.=20
Look forward to that part of comments too !

Best Regards,
Jingrong

-----Original Message-----
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:24 PM
To: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt

Comments on subject document inline. Thanks a lot for the work.


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 08:55:47 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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--0000000000006e7c7705a0aa68fb
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>
> >    If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination address in
> >    IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor's link-local address on this
> >    router's outgoing interface, the source destination address SHOULD be
> >    this router's link-local address on the outgoing interface, and the
> >    IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.
>
> I've started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i
> have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have
> seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6
> link-local addresses and TTL=1.
>
> Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this
> as an issue.
>
> If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated
> than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the
> text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for
> subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=1, and that
> too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:
> HL/TTL=1 -> MUST punt (software processing).
>

really? I'm surprised, actually, LL with TTL=1 for link local is an
absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and other thinks like BGP
sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not support that it's a
strange IPv6 silicon. But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is non
trivial (spec allows to have e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a
node). The spec here says SHOULD and not MUST so it's perfectly find using
any addresses (one could probably even use BFR prefix but that would lead
to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK depending on
deployment).  If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it's redundant) I'm
not opposed to that.

Please cc: bier working group on any discussion you are starting with 6man
on the side ... Unless I missed my morning mail input ...

--- tony

--0000000000006e7c7705a0aa68fb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination ad=
dress in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor&#39;s link-local addre=
ss on this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 router&#39;s outgoing interface, the source destination a=
ddress SHOULD be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this router&#39;s link-local address on the outgoing inte=
rface, and the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i<b=
r>
have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have<br>
seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6 <br>
link-local addresses and TTL=3D1.<br>
<br>
Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this<br>
as an issue.<br>
<br>
If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated<br>
than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the<br>
text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for<br>
subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=3D1, and that<br>
too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:<br>
HL/TTL=3D1 -&gt; MUST punt (software processing).<br></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>really? I&#39;m surprised, actually, LL with TTL=3D1 for link lo=
cal is an absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and other thinks =
like BGP sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not support that =
it&#39;s a strange IPv6 silicon. But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is=
 non trivial (spec allows to have e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a =
node). The spec here says SHOULD and not MUST so it&#39;s perfectly find us=
ing any addresses (one could probably even use BFR prefix but that would le=
ad to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK depending =
on deployment).=C2=A0 If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it&#39;s redu=
ndant) I&#39;m not opposed to that. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Please cc=
: bier working group on any discussion you are starting with 6man on the si=
de ... Unless I missed my morning mail input ... <br></div><div><br></div><=
div>--- tony <br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br></d=
iv></div>

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From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
CC: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 11:22:08 -0700
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To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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--000000000000e4a16805a0ac7339
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Nagendra, IP-FRR is an interesting observation. There is no reason why LL
cannot be protected by another non-LL nexthop but it may not be as natural
as otherwise.

As I said, no problem in softenting the draft from SHOULD to something else
as long we allow both LL and non-LL addressing. The driver to LL & NHOP=1
was mainly to have people misunderstand that BIER can be forwarded all over
the place by default which will lead to a valley of tears long term albeit
it looks like a great idea first. BIER is a switching fabric technology @
L2.5 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way but this is IMO
jsut as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-)

--- tony

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:30 AM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <
naikumar@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Toerless,
>
>
>
> Thank you for triggering the discussion with 6MAN. I was discussing with
> the authors offline on the same topic. I think it is better to have a
> clarity on this topic.
>
>
>
> I personally think it is better to use non LL address even when the BFRs
> are directly connected for behavior consistency and to leverage some of the
> benefits such as IP-FRR.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nagendra
>
>
>
> *From: *BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Tony Przygienda <
> tonysietf@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 11:58 AM
> *To: *Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
> *Cc: *BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >    If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination address in
> >    IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor's link-local address on this
> >    router's outgoing interface, the source destination address SHOULD be
> >    this router's link-local address on the outgoing interface, and the
> >    IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.
>
> I've started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i
> have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have
> seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6
> link-local addresses and TTL=1.
>
> Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this
> as an issue.
>
> If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated
> than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the
> text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for
> subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=1, and that
> too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:
> HL/TTL=1 -> MUST punt (software processing).
>
>
>
> really? I'm surprised, actually, LL with TTL=1 for link local is an
> absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and other thinks like BGP
> sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not support that it's a
> strange IPv6 silicon. But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is non
> trivial (spec allows to have e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a
> node). The spec here says SHOULD and not MUST so it's perfectly find using
> any addresses (one could probably even use BFR prefix but that would lead
> to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK depending on
> deployment).  If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it's redundant) I'm
> not opposed to that.
>
>
>
> Please cc: bier working group on any discussion you are starting with 6man
> on the side ... Unless I missed my morning mail input ...
>
>
>
> --- tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--000000000000e4a16805a0ac7339
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Nagendra, IP-FRR is an interesting observation. There=
 is no reason why LL cannot be protected by another non-LL nexthop but it m=
ay not be as natural as otherwise. <br></div><div><br></div><div>As I said,=
 no problem in softenting the draft from SHOULD to something else as long w=
e allow both LL and non-LL addressing. The driver to LL &amp; NHOP=3D1 was =
mainly to have people misunderstand that BIER can be forwarded all over the=
 place by default which will lead to a valley of tears long term albeit it =
looks like a great idea first. BIER is a switching fabric technology @ L2.5=
 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way but this is IMO jsut =
as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-) <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- =
tony <br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:30 AM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naik=
umar) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:naikumar@cisco.com">naikumar@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_9064182252505055186WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Toerless,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you for triggering the discussion with 6MAN. I=
 was discussing with the authors offline on the same topic. I think it is b=
etter to have a clarity on this topic.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I personally think it is better to use non LL addres=
s even when the BFRs are directly connected for behavior consistency and to=
 leverage some of the benefits such as IP-FRR.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Nagendra<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">BIER &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
; on behalf of Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Toerless Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_=
blank">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">b=
ier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination ad=
dress in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor&#39;s link-local addre=
ss on this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 router&#39;s outgoing interface, the source destination a=
ddress SHOULD be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this router&#39;s link-local address on the outgoing inte=
rface, and the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i<b=
r>
have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have<br>
seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6 <br>
link-local addresses and TTL=3D1.<br>
<br>
Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this<br>
as an issue.<br>
<br>
If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated<br>
than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the<br>
text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for<br>
subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=3D1, and that<br>
too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:<br>
HL/TTL=3D1 -&gt; MUST punt (software processing).<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">really? I&#39;m surprised, actually, LL with TTL=3D1=
 for link local is an absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and o=
ther thinks like BGP sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not s=
upport that it&#39;s a strange IPv6 silicon.
 But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is non trivial (spec allows to hav=
e e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a node). The spec here says SHOULD=
 and not MUST so it&#39;s perfectly find using any addresses (one could pro=
bably even use BFR prefix but that would
 lead to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK dependi=
ng on deployment).=C2=A0 If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it&#39;s r=
edundant) I&#39;m not opposed to that.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please cc: bier working group on any discussion you =
are starting with 6man on the side ... Unless I missed my morning mail inpu=
t ...
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--- tony <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000e4a16805a0ac7339--


From nobody Thu Mar 12 11:49:14 2020
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From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 08:55:47AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated
> > than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the
> > text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for
> > subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=1, and that
> > too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:
> > HL/TTL=1 -> MUST punt (software processing).
> 
> really? I'm surprised, actually, LL with TTL=1 for link local is an
> absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and other thinks like BGP
> sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not support that it's a
> strange IPv6 silicon.

Even BFD is control plane, albeit a special case.

I was talking about forwarding plane, HW accelerated.

Check out if you can configure any type of tunnel (IPinIP, GRE, IPsec VTI,...)
on your router of choice with local and remote tunnel endpoint addresses being
link-local and let me know if it not only works but actually does not
get punted.

And then assign the same LL addresses on multiple interfaces
and run a tunnel across each of them. I would bet the CLI
might not even allow to enter the addresses correctly as
<ipv6addr>%<interface-name>

Last year i was struggling to figure out how to make those
link-local tunnels (ANIMA) work in *Swan on linux for IPsec tunnels.
Nightmare... (thats not even hardware).

This is of course all just lame industry stuff, in a perfect
world this shouldn't be a problem, but the real point is that
there is (IMHO) really no functional benefit using the link-local
addresses. 

> But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is non
> trivial (spec allows to have e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a
> node). The spec here says SHOULD and not MUST so it's perfectly find using
> any addresses (one could probably even use BFR prefix but that would lead
> to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK depending on
> deployment).  If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it's redundant) I'm
> not opposed to that.

Tell me why we would not always want to use the global addresses.
(Some IPv6 archicture made us think we should use loopback for link-local communications ?)

In ANIMA we need to build link-local tunnels in the absence of
pre-existing routing for global node addresses. Hence we learned
about all the implementation issues.  I can't see how BIER is
working without the routes to the BIER prefixes, so why not use
them as the tunnel addresses to avoid unnecessary real-world problems.

Now, if someone comes back and says that the route-lookups for
global addresses will result in a less performant implementation
than link-locals which do not require another lookup, or anything
else of real technical value in support of the link-local addresses,
then i would be all in for also including them as an option,
but i would maintain my caution, that the MUST support should be
on th e safer bet, the global addresses.

> Please cc: bier working group on any discussion you are starting with 6man
> on the side ... Unless I missed my morning mail input ...

Isn't there a policy that one should be beaten up if doing too
much cross-posting ?

Toerless

> --- tony

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 11:22:08AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> Nagendra, IP-FRR is an interesting observation. There is no reason why LL
> cannot be protected by another non-LL nexthop but it may not be as natural
> as otherwise.
> 
> As I said, no problem in softenting the draft from SHOULD to something else
> as long we allow both LL and non-LL addressing.

> The driver to LL & NHOP=1
> was mainly to have people misunderstand that BIER can be forwarded all over
> the place by default which will lead to a valley of tears long term albeit
> it looks like a great idea first.

parsing failed. Can you plsease rephrase ?

> BIER is a switching fabric technology @
> L2.5 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way but this is IMO
> jsut as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-)

See my other discuss point about the IMHO most 'useful' modes of
deployment/forwarding. Those would be good to discuss in the drafts.

Partial or full deployment of BIER with IPv6 encap:
  BIFR-to-BFER IPv6 encapsulated, per-BIER-hop rewrite of IPv6 header
  No differnce between partial or full deployment, 
     should work automatically calculating remote next-hop in partial.

Partial L2 BIER encap support
  Recommend not to use, but use IPv6 encap, as IPv6 encap/decap might more likely
  be impacting performance.

Full L2 BIER encap support
  determined by BFIR from IGP info, then ue L2 encap.


Cheers
  Toerless


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In-Reply-To: <20200312190230.GB17570@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:23:13 -0700
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To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:02 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 11:22:08AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > Nagendra, IP-FRR is an interesting observation. There is no reason why LL
> > cannot be protected by another non-LL nexthop but it may not be as
> natural
> > as otherwise.
> >
> > As I said, no problem in softenting the draft from SHOULD to something
> else
> > as long we allow both LL and non-LL addressing.
>
> > The driver to LL & NHOP=1
> > was mainly to have people misunderstand that BIER can be forwarded all
> over
> > the place by default which will lead to a valley of tears long term
> albeit
> > it looks like a great idea first.
>
> parsing failed. Can you plsease rephrase ?
>

OK, if you use LL and TTL=1 you basically won't manage to send to wrong
link or more than one hop so it forces a link-by-link L2.5 fabric which is
BIER architecture day one on standard RFC (+ exception allowed to _bypass
non-BIER supporting nodes_). As I said, the spec is NOT MUST and should not
be. We can discuss out whether we should bput "SHOULD" with BIER prefix
(I'm kind of leery of v6 global addressing since that's not always given)
but then we need to talk how we deal with parallel links (or maybe we don't
have to given BIER only addresses whole BFR with a bit, I kind of didn't do
enough careful thinking here yet).


>
> > BIER is a switching fabric technology @
> > L2.5 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way but this is IMO
> > jsut as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-)
>
> See my other discuss point about the IMHO most 'useful' modes of
> deployment/forwarding. Those would be good to discuss in the drafts.
>
> Partial or full deployment of BIER with IPv6 encap:
>   BIFR-to-BFER IPv6 encapsulated, per-BIER-hop rewrite of IPv6 header
>   No differnce between partial or full deployment,
>      should work automatically calculating remote next-hop in partial.
>

There is somehow a huge misconception that as intermediate node you can
"rewrite headers and options on v6 while keeping the source address"in
flight and "adresses can encode my uncle's birthday" because "some people
said so now" but the ultimately governing body are v6 working groups not
us. In fact, AFAIR v6 specs you can't, almost without exceptions (see the
raging discussions on SRv6 PHP, SRv6 basically breaking the "no v6 address
has semantics behind subnetting", mucking around with options they have no
business to muck with and so on). BIER LL, TTL=1 is one hop forwarding
where v6 is acting as L2 basically and not some end-2-end forwarding
transport with semantics encoding.  If you start to shove BIER frames
around tunnels to show up in arbitrary places it's like shoving MPLS frames
to weird places and expect "labels to work". A BIER bitmask is basically a
very weird label with really only local significance on the link and not
using it correctly will make you expose BIER mask in places where they do
the wrong stuff (just like MPLS labels). Yes, bypassing non-supporting
nodes is ok if we control the semantics of that tightly but everything else
is basically brfeaking the architecture with a long tail fallout. BIER is
carefully thought out and reviewed and lots of stuff has security/OAM/etc
implications and that's what the WG is chartered to govern and not come up
with some "fashionable hacks" with the acronyms du jour.

And yes, you can use BIER "in overlay" but that is not the current charter
of BIER WG as many other things are not. Or that would be a "BIER-BESS"
group I guess ...

And yes, "it's lame industry stuff" you're quoting, we have v6 standards
track documents signed of and 6man to govern all that stuff and arguments
along the lines "but my silicon doesn't do that" or "this implementation is
lousy" I'm sympathetic to but to quote Yakov here "I cannot prevent you
doing whatever you want to do in your privacy with the spec I'm publishing
but do not ask me to standardize your stuff if it does not follow the
governing architecture and needs interoperability".

And yes, please cross-post, I don't want 6man or spring to be led down some
garden path without being plugged in into the BIER working group where the
BIER technology is governed.

--- tony

--00000000000042928605a0ad4e01
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:02 PM Toer=
less Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, Mar 1=
2, 2020 at 11:22:08AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:<br>
&gt; Nagendra, IP-FRR is an interesting observation. There is no reason why=
 LL<br>
&gt; cannot be protected by another non-LL nexthop but it may not be as nat=
ural<br>
&gt; as otherwise.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As I said, no problem in softenting the draft from SHOULD to something=
 else<br>
&gt; as long we allow both LL and non-LL addressing.<br>
<br>
&gt; The driver to LL &amp; NHOP=3D1<br>
&gt; was mainly to have people misunderstand that BIER can be forwarded all=
 over<br>
&gt; the place by default which will lead to a valley of tears long term al=
beit<br>
&gt; it looks like a great idea first.<br>
<br>
parsing failed. Can you plsease rephrase ?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>OK, if you use LL and TTL=3D1 you basically won&#39;t manage to send to=
 wrong link or more than one hop so it forces a link-by-link L2.5 fabric wh=
ich is BIER architecture day one on standard RFC (+ exception allowed to _b=
ypass non-BIER supporting nodes_). As I said, the spec is NOT MUST and shou=
ld not be. We can discuss out whether we should bput &quot;SHOULD&quot; wit=
h BIER prefix (I&#39;m kind of leery of v6 global addressing since that&#39=
;s not always given) but then we need to talk how we deal with parallel lin=
ks (or maybe we don&#39;t have to given BIER only addresses whole BFR with =
a bit, I kind of didn&#39;t do enough careful thinking here yet). <br></div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; BIER is a switching fabric technology @<br>
&gt; L2.5 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way but this is =
IMO<br>
&gt; jsut as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-)<br>
<br>
See my other discuss point about the IMHO most &#39;useful&#39; modes of<br=
>
deployment/forwarding. Those would be good to discuss in the drafts.<br>
<br>
Partial or full deployment of BIER with IPv6 encap:<br>
=C2=A0 BIFR-to-BFER IPv6 encapsulated, per-BIER-hop rewrite of IPv6 header<=
br>
=C2=A0 No differnce between partial or full deployment, <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should work automatically calculating remote next-hop i=
n partial.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There is somehow a huge misc=
onception that as intermediate node you can &quot;rewrite headers and optio=
ns on v6 while keeping the source address&quot;in flight and &quot;adresses=
 can encode my uncle&#39;s birthday&quot; because &quot;some people said so=
 now&quot; but the ultimately governing body are v6 working groups not us. =
In fact, AFAIR v6 specs you can&#39;t, almost without exceptions (see the r=
aging discussions on SRv6 PHP, SRv6 basically breaking the &quot;no v6 addr=
ess has semantics behind subnetting&quot;, mucking around with options they=
 have no business to muck with and so on). BIER LL, TTL=3D1 is one hop forw=
arding where v6 is acting as L2 basically and not some end-2-end forwarding=
 transport with semantics encoding.=C2=A0 If you start to shove BIER frames=
 around tunnels to show up in arbitrary places it&#39;s like shoving MPLS f=
rames to weird places and expect &quot;labels to work&quot;. A BIER bitmask=
 is basically a very weird label with really only local significance on the=
 link and not using it correctly will make you expose BIER mask in places w=
here they do the wrong stuff (just like MPLS labels). Yes, bypassing non-su=
pporting nodes is ok if we control the semantics of that tightly but everyt=
hing else is basically brfeaking the architecture with a long tail fallout.=
 BIER is carefully thought out and reviewed and lots of stuff has security/=
OAM/etc implications and that&#39;s what the WG is chartered to govern and =
not come up with some &quot;fashionable hacks&quot; with the acronyms du jo=
ur.</div><div><br></div><div>And yes, you can use BIER &quot;in overlay&quo=
t; but that is not the current charter of BIER WG as many other things are =
not. Or that would be a &quot;BIER-BESS&quot; group I guess ...=C2=A0 <br><=
/div><div><br></div><div>And yes, &quot;it&#39;s lame industry stuff&quot; =
you&#39;re quoting, we have v6 standards track documents signed of and 6man=
 to govern all that stuff and arguments along the lines &quot;but my silico=
n doesn&#39;t do that&quot; or &quot;this implementation is lousy&quot; I&#=
39;m sympathetic to but to quote Yakov here &quot;I cannot prevent you doin=
g whatever you want to do in your privacy with the spec I&#39;m publishing =
but do not ask me to standardize your stuff if it does not follow the gover=
ning architecture and needs interoperability&quot;. <br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>And yes, please cross-post, I don&#39;t want 6man or spring to be le=
d down some garden path without being plugged in into the BIER working grou=
p where the BIER technology is governed. <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- =
tony <br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div>

--00000000000042928605a0ad4e01--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:26:41 -0700
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To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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> And yes, "it's lame industry stuff" you're quoting, we have v6 standards
> track documents signed of and 6man to govern all that stuff and arguments
> along the lines "but my silicon doesn't do that" or "this implementation is
> lousy" I'm sympathetic to but to quote Yakov here "I cannot prevent you
> doing whatever you want to do in your privacy with the spec I'm publishing
> but do not ask me to standardize your stuff if it does not follow the
> governing architecture and needs interoperability".
>
>
>

and not to be missed we're playing the card to certain extent towards
HOMENET and the irony of that doesn't bypass me but BIER support on 50c
home silicon in wi-fi routers will never happen and if it happens it will
happen over proper L2 encaps ...

--- tony

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>And yes, &quot;it&#39;s lame industr=
y stuff&quot; you&#39;re quoting, we have v6 standards track documents sign=
ed of and 6man to govern all that stuff and arguments along the lines &quot=
;but my silicon doesn&#39;t do that&quot; or &quot;this implementation is l=
ousy&quot; I&#39;m sympathetic to but to quote Yakov here &quot;I cannot pr=
event you doing whatever you want to do in your privacy with the spec I&#39=
;m publishing but do not ask me to standardize your stuff if it does not fo=
llow the governing architecture and needs interoperability&quot;. <br></div=
><br><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>and not =
to be missed we&#39;re playing the card to certain extent towards HOMENET a=
nd the irony of that doesn&#39;t bypass me but BIER support on 50c home sil=
icon in wi-fi routers will never happen and if it happens it will happen ov=
er proper L2 encaps ... <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div></=
div></div>

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In-Reply-To: <20200312043703.GE2331@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:27:54 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+wi2hOimQOuP4AU76RcPWdGbqc=uiCGwbS668-7vwEv7iYdPw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, iana@iana.org, bier-ads@ietf.org,  BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Ethertype for non-MPLS BIER suggestion
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yeah, not something I want to chase right now but I get your point. In case
you get enlightened how the description can be updated, let me know and
we'll start chasing it ...

--- tony

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:37 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> I never finalized getting ethertypes from IEEE
> myself yet, so not sure about the processes.
>
> Would be nice if IANA or some other designated entity
> could take ownership of these assignments, right now
> the 8 ethertypes mentioning drafts which are all RFCs
> now are all over the place. "TRILL WG", routing-area
> or even "Cisco" (SFC/NSH).
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:01:39PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > oh, I see. no idea what the proper "update" procedure in IEEE is. Someone
> > feels like ferreting that out?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:00 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm surprised, there was an official liaison and assignment from IEEE
> of
> > > the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having filed _the_
> forms
> > > ;-) for her ...
> > >
> > > --- tony
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear IANA, BIER leadership
> > >>
> > >> Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE
> > >> procedures),
> > >> but:
> > >>
> > >> I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the
> following
> > >> record with IEEE:
> > >>
> > >> http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> AB37                          IETF Routing Area   Please read
> > >> draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at
> > >>                               5177 Brandin Court
> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/.
> > >>
> > >>                               Fremont  CA  94538
> > >>
> > >>                               US
> > >>
> > >> Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296
> > >>
> > >> And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of
> > >> "draft-ietf" in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >>     Toerless
> > >>
> > >> P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at the
> > >> LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD's ? (don't
> > >> answer, just kidding).
> > >>
> > >
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>
>
> --
> ---
> tte@cs.fau.de
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>yeah, not something I want to chase right now but I g=
et your point. In case you get enlightened how the description can be updat=
ed, let me know and we&#39;ll start chasing it ... <br></div><div><br></div=
><div>--- tony <br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:37 PM Toerless Eckert &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I never finalized getting e=
thertypes from IEEE<br>
myself yet, so not sure about the processes.<br>
<br>
Would be nice if IANA or some other designated entity<br>
could take ownership of these assignments, right now <br>
the 8 ethertypes mentioning drafts which are all RFCs<br>
now are all over the place. &quot;TRILL WG&quot;, routing-area<br>
or even &quot;Cisco&quot; (SFC/NSH).<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:01:39PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:<br>
&gt; oh, I see. no idea what the proper &quot;update&quot; procedure in IEE=
E is. Someone<br>
&gt; feels like ferreting that out?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:00 PM Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;m surprised, there was an official liaison and assignment f=
rom IEEE of<br>
&gt; &gt; the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having filed _the=
_ forms<br>
&gt; &gt; ;-) for her ...<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --- tony<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Dear IANA, BIER leadership<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter =
IEEE<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; procedures),<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; but:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the=
 following<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; record with IEEE:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype=
/eth.txt</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; AB37=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF Routing Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0Please rea=
d<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05177 Brandin Court<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-m=
pls-encapsulation/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fremont=C2=A0 CA=C2=A0 945=
38<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0US<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entri=
es of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;draft-ietf&quot; in that registry, and get them updated=
 accordingly.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cheers<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox addres=
s at the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD&#39;s=
 ? (don&#39;t<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; answer, just kidding).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
---<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:23:13PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > parsing failed. Can you plsease rephrase ?
> 
> OK, if you use LL and TTL=1 you basically won't manage to send to wrong
> link or more than one hop so it forces a link-by-link L2.5 fabric which is
> BIER architecture day one on standard RFC (+ exception allowed to _bypass
> non-BIER supporting nodes_).

Sure, and we have L2 encap for that and should promote it and make sure
it will happen in IPv6 deployments.

If LL IPv6 tunnels in forwarding plane would be used widely in othre IETF
technologies i would be less concerned. Right not it is not, and
so i am worried to have an IPv6 encap profile in our draft that makes
adoption most easy.

> be. We can discuss out whether we should bput "SHOULD" with BIER prefix
> (I'm kind of leery of v6 global addressing since that's not always given)
> but then we need to talk how we deal with parallel links (or maybe we don't
> have to given BIER only addresses whole BFR with a bit, I kind of didn't do
> enough careful thinking here yet).
> 
> 
> >
> > > BIER is a switching fabric technology @
> > > L2.5 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way but this is IMO
> > > jsut as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-)
> >
> > See my other discuss point about the IMHO most 'useful' modes of
> > deployment/forwarding. Those would be good to discuss in the drafts.
> >
> > Partial or full deployment of BIER with IPv6 encap:
> >   BIFR-to-BFER IPv6 encapsulated, per-BIER-hop rewrite of IPv6 header
> >   No differnce between partial or full deployment,
> >      should work automatically calculating remote next-hop in partial.
> >
> 
> There is somehow a huge misconception that as intermediate node you can
> "rewrite headers and options on v6 while keeping the source address"in
> flight

Well, thats what SRH does. BIER also rewrites bitstring.
rewriting IPv6 dest and optional source should in general
be easier than actual decap+encap. Tell me if i am wrong.

> and "adresses can encode my uncle's birthday" because "some people
> said so now"

Where where you when embedded RP was standardized so that you can throw stones ? ;-)

My concern about  SRH is that it is waste on midpoint SIDs not that 
abuse of IPv6 addresses is bad.

I liked Pierre's bitstring in IPv6 addr, i just felt it was too short to be useful.

I liked terrastreams QoS encoding in IPv6 addresses.

If you want people to stop (ab)using IPv6 addresses, you need
to give operators other header elements in which to carry policy.
Flexible extensible not only by vendors.

I tried to bring frameworks like this to IETF and was immediatly
confronted by the IETF perpass/privacy lobby: Routers should not know
anything.

Ok, now i've run miles away from subject matter to my favourite soap box.

> but the ultimately governing body are v6 working groups not
> us. In fact, AFAIR v6 specs you can't, almost without exceptions (see the
> raging discussions on SRv6 PHP, SRv6 basically breaking the "no v6 address
> has semantics behind subnetting", mucking around with options they have no
> business to muck with and so on).where v6 is acting as L2 basically and not
> some end-2-end forwarding transport with semantics encoding.

RFC8200 was written for uncontrolled internet paths, SRH/SRv6 was designed for
controlled networks. Huge overhead as a result. If not for
(predecessors) of RFC8200 would have from the beginning been something
like CRH (which still has to argue representing IPv6 adddresses with
mapping to suite RFC8200).

RFC8200 is a plane to travel the planet. No, its not ideal to drive on 
highways, but nobody in the IETF wants to build a car. IPng process was
30 years ago, and we still think its results is sufficient for all
futures.

> If you start to shove BIER frames
> around tunnels to show up in arbitrary places it's like shoving MPLS frames
> to weird places and expect "labels to work". A BIER bitmask is basically a
> very weird label with really only local significance on the link and not
> using it correctly will make you expose BIER mask in places where they do
> the wrong stuff (just like MPLS labels).

I don't buy that argument. All VPNs are overlay networks (PE to PE), and
operators know how to build them. Most L3 router networks are overlay
networks on top of an optical switched underlay providing p2p colored
connections, and those paths are often manually configured, similar to
what i did 30 years ago with X.25 PVCs. All 3G/4G/5G "core" networks
are overlays. Building overlays happens everywhere. Some are better,
some are worth, often in the eye of the beholder.

> Yes, bypassing non-supporting
> nodes is ok if we control the semantics of that tightly but everything else
> is basically brfeaking the architecture with a long tail fallout. BIER is
> carefully thought out and reviewed and lots of stuff has security/OAM/etc
> implications and that's what the WG is chartered to govern and not come up
> with some "fashionable hacks" with the acronyms du jour.

I think the best thing BIER can do is to promote the option of
automatic mapping from a self-intelligent underlay, aka: the
fully automatic IGP option described in rfc8297. 

I don't know how important partial upgrades/adoption of BIER within an
IGP domain is, but i have seen a lot of asks for this for prior IP
multicast technologies (especially in SPs), and it is so much easier now
with BIER given how we are relying on autoconfiguration via IGP
information. That makes it excitingly more attractive than the
problematic solutions we tried to build earlier where we where not
given the option to exten IGPs.

> And yes, you can use BIER "in overlay" but that is not the current charter
> of BIER WG as many other things are not. Or that would be a "BIER-BESS"
> group I guess ...

Ethernet is also a useless overlay for p2p links. Can we please
only support HDLC headers ? SRv6 whether RH or CRH is always
an overlay. 

If we come up with a solution that allows smooth incremental adoption
of BIER in an IGP domain by using IPv6 encap as long as there are
no full ethernet encap paths, and then automatically switch to  ethernet
encap paths unless there is a policy override ("operator loves IPv6
encap or reuse IPv6 FRR), i think we are on a good path for the first
round document.

The main issue i see is tht most multicst use is in VPNs, and i am
not sure we have a good VPN solution without MPLS without some
way to encapsulate destination SIDs like we have in MPLS.

> And yes, "it's lame industry stuff" you're quoting, we have v6 standards
> track documents signed of and 6man to govern all that stuff and arguments
> along the lines "but my silicon doesn't do that" or "this implementation is
> lousy" I'm sympathetic to but to quote Yakov here "I cannot prevent you
> doing whatever you want to do in your privacy with the spec I'm publishing
> but do not ask me to standardize your stuff if it does not follow the
> governing architecture and needs interoperability".

Its also bad to publish supposedly well-meaning architectures when
you're not the one having to suffer on its issues. Should i bring on
my rant about IPv6 scoped address architecture ? None of the folks who
wrote that ever thought about IPv6 multicast.

At best, architectures are good intentions. If they are assumed to be
cast in stome they become dogmas.

> And yes, please cross-post, I don't want 6man or spring to be led down some
> garden path without being plugged in into the BIER working group where the
> BIER technology is governed.

Input from othre WGs is only that: Input. As i said, we do need to be
worried about them claiming they can prohibit options we as BIER like
to do - because of dogmas.

Toerless
> 
> --- tony

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:59:54 -0700
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To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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Hi Tony,
I think that the example of LL BFD, i.e. single-hop BFD, is in fact
opposite, not in support of TTL/HC = 1. RFC 5881, following on the
extensive discussion of the GTSM in RFC 5082, requires that TTL/HC for the
single-hop BFD be set to 255 and BFD packet discarded by a receiver if
TTL/HC != 255. I'll note that we had an extensive discussion with IESG on
the TTL/HC value in the case of BFD over VXLAN. We've agreed that a VXLAN
tunnel is as single-hop IP and thus TTL/HC MUST be set to 255. Not sure if
all this information was helpful. My $.02

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 8:57 AM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>> >    If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination address in
>> >    IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor's link-local address on this
>> >    router's outgoing interface, the source destination address SHOULD be
>> >    this router's link-local address on the outgoing interface, and the
>> >    IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.
>>
>> I've started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i
>> have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have
>> seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6
>> link-local addresses and TTL=1.
>>
>> Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this
>> as an issue.
>>
>> If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated
>> than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the
>> text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for
>> subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=1, and that
>> too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:
>> HL/TTL=1 -> MUST punt (software processing).
>>
>
> really? I'm surprised, actually, LL with TTL=1 for link local is an
> absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and other thinks like BGP
> sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not support that it's a
> strange IPv6 silicon. But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is non
> trivial (spec allows to have e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a
> node). The spec here says SHOULD and not MUST so it's perfectly find using
> any addresses (one could probably even use BFR prefix but that would lead
> to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK depending on
> deployment).  If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it's redundant) I'm
> not opposed to that.
>
> Please cc: bier working group on any discussion you are starting with 6man
> on the side ... Unless I missed my morning mail input ...
>
> --- tony
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

--0000000000002e7c7005a0aea31a
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Tony,<div>I think that the example of LL BFD, i.e. sing=
le-hop BFD, is in fact opposite, not in support of TTL/HC =3D 1. RFC 5881, =
following on the extensive discussion of the GTSM in RFC 5082, requires tha=
t TTL/HC for the single-hop BFD be set to 255 and BFD packet discarded=C2=
=A0by a receiver if TTL/HC !=3D 255. I&#39;ll note that we had an extensive=
 discussion with IESG on the TTL/HC value in the case of BFD over VXLAN. We=
&#39;ve agreed that a VXLAN tunnel is as single-hop IP and thus TTL/HC MUST=
 be set to 255. Not sure if all this information was helpful. My $.02</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 8:=
57 AM Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com">tonysietf@=
gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination ad=
dress in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor&#39;s link-local addre=
ss on this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 router&#39;s outgoing interface, the source destination a=
ddress SHOULD be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this router&#39;s link-local address on the outgoing inte=
rface, and the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i<b=
r>
have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have<br>
seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6 <br>
link-local addresses and TTL=3D1.<br>
<br>
Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this<br>
as an issue.<br>
<br>
If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated<br>
than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the<br>
text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for<br>
subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=3D1, and that<br>
too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:<br>
HL/TTL=3D1 -&gt; MUST punt (software processing).<br></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>really? I&#39;m surprised, actually, LL with TTL=3D1 for link lo=
cal is an absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and other thinks =
like BGP sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not support that =
it&#39;s a strange IPv6 silicon. But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is=
 non trivial (spec allows to have e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a =
node). The spec here says SHOULD and not MUST so it&#39;s perfectly find us=
ing any addresses (one could probably even use BFR prefix but that would le=
ad to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK depending =
on deployment).=C2=A0 If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it&#39;s redu=
ndant) I&#39;m not opposed to that. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Please cc=
: bier working group on any discussion you are starting with 6man on the si=
de ... Unless I missed my morning mail input ... <br></div><div><br></div><=
div>--- tony <br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br></d=
iv></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Subject: Re: [Bier] Ethertype for non-MPLS BIER suggestion
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Hi!

I didn=E2=80=99t make this request, but according to the policy the request=
 to the
IEEE RA is to be made after approval for publication=E2=80=A6but before the=
 RFC is
published.  I guess that=E2=80=99s how we got in this situation.

I assume that the way to update the entry is to contact the IEEE RA.  I
sent a message to the IEEE/IETF coordination team =E2=80=94 with any luck, =
they
have a simple process for an update and we can take care of this (and
potentially other entries).

I=E2=80=99ll then take the AI.

Alvaro.

On March 12, 2020 at 3:29:41 PM, Tony Przygienda (tonysietf@gmail.com)
wrote:

yeah, not something I want to chase right now but I get your point. In case
you get enlightened how the description can be updated, let me know and
we'll start chasing it ...

--- tony

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:37 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> I never finalized getting ethertypes from IEEE
> myself yet, so not sure about the processes.
>
> Would be nice if IANA or some other designated entity
> could take ownership of these assignments, right now
> the 8 ethertypes mentioning drafts which are all RFCs
> now are all over the place. "TRILL WG", routing-area
> or even "Cisco" (SFC/NSH).
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:01:39PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > oh, I see. no idea what the proper "update" procedure in IEEE is. Someo=
ne
> > feels like ferreting that out?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:00 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm surprised, there was an official liaison and assignment from IEEE
> of
> > > the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having filed _the_
> forms
> > > ;-) for her ...
> > >
> > > --- tony
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote=
:
> > >
> > >> Dear IANA, BIER leadership
> > >>
> > >> Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE
> > >> procedures),
> > >> but:
> > >>
> > >> I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the
> following
> > >> record with IEEE:
> > >>
> > >> http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> AB37                          IETF Routing Area   Please read
> > >> draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at
> > >>                               5177 Brandin Court
> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/=
.
> > >>
> > >>                               Fremont  CA  94538
> > >>
> > >>                               US
> > >>
> > >> Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296
> > >>
> > >> And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of
> > >> "draft-ietf" in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >>     Toerless
> > >>
> > >> P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at th=
e
> > >> LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD's ? (don't
> > >> answer, just kidding).
> > >>
> > >
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > BIER mailing list
> > BIER@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>
>
> --
> ---
> tte@cs.fau.de
>

--0000000000004f30be05a0aea5a2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial;font-size:13px">Hi!</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ari=
al;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font=
-size:13px">I didn=E2=80=99t make this request, but according to the policy=
 the request to the IEEE RA is to be made after approval for publication=E2=
=80=A6but before the RFC is published.=C2=A0 I guess that=E2=80=99s how we =
got in this situation.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-=
size:13px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13=
px">I assume that the way to update the entry is to contact the IEEE RA.=C2=
=A0 I sent a message to the IEEE/IETF coordination team =E2=80=94 with any =
luck, they have a simple process for an update and we can take care of this=
 (and potentially other entries).</div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,=
Arial;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;f=
ont-size:13px">I=E2=80=99ll then take the AI.</div><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial;font-size:13px">Alvaro.</div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On Mar=
ch 12, 2020 at 3:29:41 PM, Tony Przygienda (<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gma=
il.com">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>


<title></title>


<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>yeah, not something I want to chase right now but I get your
point. In case you get enlightened how the description can be
updated, let me know and we&#39;ll start chasing it ...<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>--- tony<br></div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:37 PM
Toerless Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I never finalized getting ethertypes from IEEE<br>
myself yet, so not sure about the processes.<br>
<br>
Would be nice if IANA or some other designated entity<br>
could take ownership of these assignments, right now<br>
the 8 ethertypes mentioning drafts which are all RFCs<br>
now are all over the place. &quot;TRILL WG&quot;, routing-area<br>
or even &quot;Cisco&quot; (SFC/NSH).<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:01:39PM -0700, Tony Przygienda
wrote:<br>
&gt; oh, I see. no idea what the proper &quot;update&quot; procedure in IEE=
E
is. Someone<br>
&gt; feels like ferreting that out?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:00 PM Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;m surprised, there was an official liaison and
assignment from IEEE of<br>
&gt; &gt; the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having
filed _the_ forms<br>
&gt; &gt; ;-) for her ...<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --- tony<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Dear IANA, BIER leadership<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that
matter IEEE<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; procedures),<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; but:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to
update the following<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; record with IEEE:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype=
/eth.txt</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; AB37=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF Routing Area=C2=A0
=C2=A0Please read<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05177
Brandin Court<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-m=
pls-encapsulation/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/</a>.<br>

&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0Fremont=C2=A0 CA=C2=A0 94538<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0US<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to
rfc8296<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other
7 entries of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;draft-ietf&quot; in that registry, and get them updated
accordingly.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cheers<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical
mailbox address at the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our
AD&#39;s ? (don&#39;t<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; answer, just kidding).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; BIER mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
---<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de</a><br></b=
lockquote>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote> <div class=3D"gmail_signature"></div></bod=
y></html>

--0000000000004f30be05a0aea5a2--


From nobody Thu Mar 12 14:10:09 2020
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 22:09:54 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Cc: 6man <6man@ietf.org>, V6 Ops List <v6ops@ietf.org>, bier@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Bier] [v6ops] IPv6 link-local traffic questions
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On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 11:33:37AM +1100, Jen Linkova wrote:
> I believe it depends what you are trying to achieve. If you want to
> make sure that the traffic never leaves the network - then hop limit =
> 1 helps. But using link-local sources/destinations would help even
> better if the routers comply with RFC4291 Section 2.5.6

Yes, i am assuming 2.5.6 is mandatory given how this is standards track
and how abence of RFC2119 langauge does not render "must" into a non
standard requirement.

> If you want to make sure those packets are not sent by a malicious
> party from outside - hop limit shall be 255.
> For example, see RFC4861 Section 3.1
> Neighbor Discovery.

Ah, nice. I never looked into all those encoding details. Thanks.

Preceeding RFC5082 and hence not referring to it, and neither does
RFC5082 refer to RFC4861, thats why i couldn't easily find it by sea4rching.

> > There is an additional set of consideration re. link-local traffic
> > when trying to use it as a HW accelerated tunneling mechanism across links,
> > a use we both have in ANIMA, and maybe get the same in BIER (probably
> > other WGs too, not sure).
> >
> > In implementations, i have seen quite a range of issues with
> > accelerated forwarding planes across link-local addressed tunnels,
> > and when using non-link-local addresses (loopback addresses),
> > the HW plane forwarding might have issues doing HW forwarding, because
> > usually TTL=1 is only used for control plane traffic. Of course,
> > this is not a good architectural argument, but if given architectural
> > leeway to even choose 42, maybe GTSM/255 is easier to be supported
> > across various HW accelerated forwarding planes than 1.
> >
> > Opinions and experiences welcome!
> 
> If you control the router I'd say 'link-local source/destination,
> HL=255 AND RFC4291 would be the best option.

RFC4291 seems redundant given how its mandatory anyhow, but of course
helpfull to remind readers of new specs.

Given how 4291 is widely deployed it certainly qualifies well as
sufficient proof of the mechanism widely deployed - for control plane.

So, effectively, architcturally, the sending TTL is a choice of the application,
and for control plane apps, we evolved choosing from 1 first and now BCP
is 255.  Coming from multicast, i kinda grew up with the
belief there is a MUST use TTL=1 somewhere for a long time (when using
link-local addresses), but never verified that belief.

Still hesitant of prescribing 255 for hardware accelerated forwarding 
plane use case, but given how link-local tunnels aren't really a thing
it would be hard to find prior evidence of successful wide deployment.
Given how i tinkered with them, i've seen all type of troubles,
including TTL ones.

> I did see a few devices somewhere far away sending me ICMPv6 (packet
> too big) from their link-local addresses but it was not very common
> case.

Agree. same here.

Thanks & Cheers
    Toerless

> 
> -- 
> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry

-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:26:09 -0700
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I'm all for TTL=1. It's one thing having a BFD frame run away, another a
multicast frame ;-)  But yeah, worth discussion on the list ...

--- tony

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 2:00 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Tony,
> I think that the example of LL BFD, i.e. single-hop BFD, is in fact
> opposite, not in support of TTL/HC = 1. RFC 5881, following on the
> extensive discussion of the GTSM in RFC 5082, requires that TTL/HC for the
> single-hop BFD be set to 255 and BFD packet discarded by a receiver if
> TTL/HC != 255. I'll note that we had an extensive discussion with IESG on
> the TTL/HC value in the case of BFD over VXLAN. We've agreed that a VXLAN
> tunnel is as single-hop IP and thus TTL/HC MUST be set to 255. Not sure if
> all this information was helpful. My $.02
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 8:57 AM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> >    If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination address in
>>> >    IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor's link-local address on this
>>> >    router's outgoing interface, the source destination address SHOULD
>>> be
>>> >    this router's link-local address on the outgoing interface, and the
>>> >    IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.
>>>
>>> I've started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i
>>> have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have
>>> seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6
>>> link-local addresses and TTL=1.
>>>
>>> Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this
>>> as an issue.
>>>
>>> If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated
>>> than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the
>>> text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for
>>> subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=1, and that
>>> too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:
>>> HL/TTL=1 -> MUST punt (software processing).
>>>
>>
>> really? I'm surprised, actually, LL with TTL=1 for link local is an
>> absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and other thinks like BGP
>> sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not support that it's a
>> strange IPv6 silicon. But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is non
>> trivial (spec allows to have e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a
>> node). The spec here says SHOULD and not MUST so it's perfectly find using
>> any addresses (one could probably even use BFR prefix but that would lead
>> to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK depending on
>> deployment).  If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it's redundant) I'm
>> not opposed to that.
>>
>> Please cc: bier working group on any discussion you are starting with
>> 6man on the side ... Unless I missed my morning mail input ...
>>
>> --- tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BIER mailing list
>> BIER@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;m all for TTL=3D1. It&#39;s one thing having a =
BFD frame run away, another a multicast frame ;-)=C2=A0 But yeah, worth dis=
cussion on the list ... <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div></=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 2:00 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky=
@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Tony,<div>I think that=
 the example of LL BFD, i.e. single-hop BFD, is in fact opposite, not in su=
pport of TTL/HC =3D 1. RFC 5881, following on the extensive discussion of t=
he GTSM in RFC 5082, requires that TTL/HC for the single-hop BFD be set to =
255 and BFD packet discarded=C2=A0by a receiver if TTL/HC !=3D 255. I&#39;l=
l note that we had an extensive discussion with IESG on the TTL/HC value in=
 the case of BFD over VXLAN. We&#39;ve agreed that a VXLAN tunnel is as sin=
gle-hop IP and thus TTL/HC MUST be set to 255. Not sure if all this informa=
tion was helpful. My $.02</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg<=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 8:57 AM Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex">
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the neighbor is directly connected, The destination ad=
dress in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor&#39;s link-local addre=
ss on this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 router&#39;s outgoing interface, the source destination a=
ddress SHOULD be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this router&#39;s link-local address on the outgoing inte=
rface, and the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 TTL MUST be set to 1.<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve started a thread on 6man/6ops re. link-local-tunnel traffic as i<b=
r>
have the same also in my ANIMA draft, and in implementations i have<br>
seen quite some issues tunneling traffic HW accelerated across IPv6 <br>
link-local addresses and TTL=3D1.<br>
<br>
Would welcome implementers in BIER to chime in if they would see this<br>
as an issue.<br>
<br>
If folks feel supporting this HW accelerated might be more complicated<br>
than non-link-local tunnels, then it might be useful to change the<br>
text to also allow/require support for using the BFR address even for<br>
subnet adjacent BFR. In that case one would not use HL=3D1, and that<br>
too i have seen to be a problem in HW accelerated forwarding plane:<br>
HL/TTL=3D1 -&gt; MUST punt (software processing).<br></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>really? I&#39;m surprised, actually, LL with TTL=3D1 for link lo=
cal is an absolutely common case since years for e.g. BFD and other thinks =
like BGP sessions in many topologies so if a silicon does not support that =
it&#39;s a strange IPv6 silicon. But yes, supporting LL properly in IPv6 is=
 non trivial (spec allows to have e.g. same LL on multiple interfaces in a =
node). The spec here says SHOULD and not MUST so it&#39;s perfectly find us=
ing any addresses (one could probably even use BFR prefix but that would le=
ad to ECMP non-deterministic behavior which may or may not be OK depending =
on deployment).=C2=A0 If that needs to be spelled out (albeit it&#39;s redu=
ndant) I&#39;m not opposed to that. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Please cc=
: bier working group on any discussion you are starting with 6man on the si=
de ... Unless I missed my morning mail input ... <br></div><div><br></div><=
div>--- tony <br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br></d=
iv></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:31:52 -0700
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Good rant but reread my Yakov quote. Yes, people will always love shortcuts
and have ideas for their golden use case, this has little to do with the
fact whether IETF should standardize it.

As side input: _All_ silicon peopleI I talked to (well, maybe I just talked
to sane silicon people ;-) considered decaps'ing far more desirable than
option processing, no matter whether it's v4 or v6. They like to end up
with a BIER frame they can throw @ BIER MPLS/non-MPLS block (and the
silicon for tunnel encaps/decaps is very good & generic on all sane
silicons AFAIU). Option processing is a mild nightmare, especially if
you're not sure where they are and how big they get and once they blow you
scratchpad size you end up re'circ the packet and pay 50% bandwidht penalty
(or you double your scratchpad size paying a completley non-linear cost in
real estate and power consumption) ... just my 2c but those guys are tied
by electrons and mostly have strong opinions based on atoms they shuffle
around ...

--- tony

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 1:29 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:23:13PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > > parsing failed. Can you plsease rephrase ?
> >
> > OK, if you use LL and TTL=1 you basically won't manage to send to wrong
> > link or more than one hop so it forces a link-by-link L2.5 fabric which
> is
> > BIER architecture day one on standard RFC (+ exception allowed to _bypass
> > non-BIER supporting nodes_).
>
> Sure, and we have L2 encap for that and should promote it and make sure
> it will happen in IPv6 deployments.
>
> If LL IPv6 tunnels in forwarding plane would be used widely in othre IETF
> technologies i would be less concerned. Right not it is not, and
> so i am worried to have an IPv6 encap profile in our draft that makes
> adoption most easy.
>
> > be. We can discuss out whether we should bput "SHOULD" with BIER prefix
> > (I'm kind of leery of v6 global addressing since that's not always given)
> > but then we need to talk how we deal with parallel links (or maybe we
> don't
> > have to given BIER only addresses whole BFR with a bit, I kind of didn't
> do
> > enough careful thinking here yet).
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > BIER is a switching fabric technology @
> > > > L2.5 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way but this
> is IMO
> > > > jsut as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-)
> > >
> > > See my other discuss point about the IMHO most 'useful' modes of
> > > deployment/forwarding. Those would be good to discuss in the drafts.
> > >
> > > Partial or full deployment of BIER with IPv6 encap:
> > >   BIFR-to-BFER IPv6 encapsulated, per-BIER-hop rewrite of IPv6 header
> > >   No differnce between partial or full deployment,
> > >      should work automatically calculating remote next-hop in partial.
> > >
> >
> > There is somehow a huge misconception that as intermediate node you can
> > "rewrite headers and options on v6 while keeping the source address"in
> > flight
>
> Well, thats what SRH does. BIER also rewrites bitstring.
> rewriting IPv6 dest and optional source should in general
> be easier than actual decap+encap. Tell me if i am wrong.
>
> > and "adresses can encode my uncle's birthday" because "some people
> > said so now"
>
> Where where you when embedded RP was standardized so that you can throw
> stones ? ;-)
>
> My concern about  SRH is that it is waste on midpoint SIDs not that
> abuse of IPv6 addresses is bad.
>
> I liked Pierre's bitstring in IPv6 addr, i just felt it was too short to
> be useful.
>
> I liked terrastreams QoS encoding in IPv6 addresses.
>
> If you want people to stop (ab)using IPv6 addresses, you need
> to give operators other header elements in which to carry policy.
> Flexible extensible not only by vendors.
>
> I tried to bring frameworks like this to IETF and was immediatly
> confronted by the IETF perpass/privacy lobby: Routers should not know
> anything.
>
> Ok, now i've run miles away from subject matter to my favourite soap box.
>
> > but the ultimately governing body are v6 working groups not
> > us. In fact, AFAIR v6 specs you can't, almost without exceptions (see the
> > raging discussions on SRv6 PHP, SRv6 basically breaking the "no v6
> address
> > has semantics behind subnetting", mucking around with options they have
> no
> > business to muck with and so on).where v6 is acting as L2 basically and
> not
> > some end-2-end forwarding transport with semantics encoding.
>
> RFC8200 was written for uncontrolled internet paths, SRH/SRv6 was designed
> for
> controlled networks. Huge overhead as a result. If not for
> (predecessors) of RFC8200 would have from the beginning been something
> like CRH (which still has to argue representing IPv6 adddresses with
> mapping to suite RFC8200).
>
> RFC8200 is a plane to travel the planet. No, its not ideal to drive on
> highways, but nobody in the IETF wants to build a car. IPng process was
> 30 years ago, and we still think its results is sufficient for all
> futures.
>
> > If you start to shove BIER frames
> > around tunnels to show up in arbitrary places it's like shoving MPLS
> frames
> > to weird places and expect "labels to work". A BIER bitmask is basically
> a
> > very weird label with really only local significance on the link and not
> > using it correctly will make you expose BIER mask in places where they do
> > the wrong stuff (just like MPLS labels).
>
> I don't buy that argument. All VPNs are overlay networks (PE to PE), and
> operators know how to build them. Most L3 router networks are overlay
> networks on top of an optical switched underlay providing p2p colored
> connections, and those paths are often manually configured, similar to
> what i did 30 years ago with X.25 PVCs. All 3G/4G/5G "core" networks
> are overlays. Building overlays happens everywhere. Some are better,
> some are worth, often in the eye of the beholder.
>
> > Yes, bypassing non-supporting
> > nodes is ok if we control the semantics of that tightly but everything
> else
> > is basically brfeaking the architecture with a long tail fallout. BIER is
> > carefully thought out and reviewed and lots of stuff has security/OAM/etc
> > implications and that's what the WG is chartered to govern and not come
> up
> > with some "fashionable hacks" with the acronyms du jour.
>
> I think the best thing BIER can do is to promote the option of
> automatic mapping from a self-intelligent underlay, aka: the
> fully automatic IGP option described in rfc8297.
>
> I don't know how important partial upgrades/adoption of BIER within an
> IGP domain is, but i have seen a lot of asks for this for prior IP
> multicast technologies (especially in SPs), and it is so much easier now
> with BIER given how we are relying on autoconfiguration via IGP
> information. That makes it excitingly more attractive than the
> problematic solutions we tried to build earlier where we where not
> given the option to exten IGPs.
>
> > And yes, you can use BIER "in overlay" but that is not the current
> charter
> > of BIER WG as many other things are not. Or that would be a "BIER-BESS"
> > group I guess ...
>
> Ethernet is also a useless overlay for p2p links. Can we please
> only support HDLC headers ? SRv6 whether RH or CRH is always
> an overlay.
>
> If we come up with a solution that allows smooth incremental adoption
> of BIER in an IGP domain by using IPv6 encap as long as there are
> no full ethernet encap paths, and then automatically switch to  ethernet
> encap paths unless there is a policy override ("operator loves IPv6
> encap or reuse IPv6 FRR), i think we are on a good path for the first
> round document.
>
> The main issue i see is tht most multicst use is in VPNs, and i am
> not sure we have a good VPN solution without MPLS without some
> way to encapsulate destination SIDs like we have in MPLS.
>
> > And yes, "it's lame industry stuff" you're quoting, we have v6 standards
> > track documents signed of and 6man to govern all that stuff and arguments
> > along the lines "but my silicon doesn't do that" or "this implementation
> is
> > lousy" I'm sympathetic to but to quote Yakov here "I cannot prevent you
> > doing whatever you want to do in your privacy with the spec I'm
> publishing
> > but do not ask me to standardize your stuff if it does not follow the
> > governing architecture and needs interoperability".
>
> Its also bad to publish supposedly well-meaning architectures when
> you're not the one having to suffer on its issues. Should i bring on
> my rant about IPv6 scoped address architecture ? None of the folks who
> wrote that ever thought about IPv6 multicast.
>
> At best, architectures are good intentions. If they are assumed to be
> cast in stome they become dogmas.
>
> > And yes, please cross-post, I don't want 6man or spring to be led down
> some
> > garden path without being plugged in into the BIER working group where
> the
> > BIER technology is governed.
>
> Input from othre WGs is only that: Input. As i said, we do need to be
> worried about them claiming they can prohibit options we as BIER like
> to do - because of dogmas.
>
> Toerless
> >
> > --- tony
>
> --
> ---
> tte@cs.fau.de
>

--0000000000005ae5fa05a0af1ae7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Good rant but reread my Yakov quote. Yes, people will=
 always love shortcuts and have ideas for their golden use case, this has l=
ittle to do with the fact whether IETF should standardize it. <br></div><di=
v><br></div><div>As side input: _All_ silicon peopleI I talked to (well, ma=
ybe I just talked to sane silicon people ;-) considered decaps&#39;ing far =
more desirable than option processing, no matter whether it&#39;s v4 or v6.=
 They like to end up with a BIER frame they can throw @ BIER MPLS/non-MPLS =
block (and the silicon for tunnel encaps/decaps is very good &amp; generic =
on all sane silicons AFAIU). Option processing is a mild nightmare, especia=
lly if you&#39;re not sure where they are and how big they get and once the=
y blow you scratchpad size you end up re&#39;circ the packet and pay 50% ba=
ndwidht penalty (or you double your scratchpad size paying a completley non=
-linear cost in real estate and power consumption) ... just my 2c but those=
 guys are tied by electrons and mostly have strong opinions based on atoms =
they shuffle around ... <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div></=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 1:29 PM Toerless Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.=
fau.de">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:23:13PM -0700, Tony Przygie=
nda wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; parsing failed. Can you plsease rephrase ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; OK, if you use LL and TTL=3D1 you basically won&#39;t manage to send t=
o wrong<br>
&gt; link or more than one hop so it forces a link-by-link L2.5 fabric whic=
h is<br>
&gt; BIER architecture day one on standard RFC (+ exception allowed to _byp=
ass<br>
&gt; non-BIER supporting nodes_).<br>
<br>
Sure, and we have L2 encap for that and should promote it and make sure<br>
it will happen in IPv6 deployments.<br>
<br>
If LL IPv6 tunnels in forwarding plane would be used widely in othre IETF<b=
r>
technologies i would be less concerned. Right not it is not, and<br>
so i am worried to have an IPv6 encap profile in our draft that makes<br>
adoption most easy.<br>
<br>
&gt; be. We can discuss out whether we should bput &quot;SHOULD&quot; with =
BIER prefix<br>
&gt; (I&#39;m kind of leery of v6 global addressing since that&#39;s not al=
ways given)<br>
&gt; but then we need to talk how we deal with parallel links (or maybe we =
don&#39;t<br>
&gt; have to given BIER only addresses whole BFR with a bit, I kind of didn=
&#39;t do<br>
&gt; enough careful thinking here yet).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; BIER is a switching fabric technology @<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; L2.5 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way bu=
t this is IMO<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; jsut as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; See my other discuss point about the IMHO most &#39;useful&#39; m=
odes of<br>
&gt; &gt; deployment/forwarding. Those would be good to discuss in the draf=
ts.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Partial or full deployment of BIER with IPv6 encap:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0BIFR-to-BFER IPv6 encapsulated, per-BIER-hop rewrite =
of IPv6 header<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0No differnce between partial or full deployment,<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should work automatically calculating remote =
next-hop in partial.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There is somehow a huge misconception that as intermediate node you ca=
n<br>
&gt; &quot;rewrite headers and options on v6 while keeping the source addre=
ss&quot;in<br>
&gt; flight<br>
<br>
Well, thats what SRH does. BIER also rewrites bitstring.<br>
rewriting IPv6 dest and optional source should in general<br>
be easier than actual decap+encap. Tell me if i am wrong.<br>
<br>
&gt; and &quot;adresses can encode my uncle&#39;s birthday&quot; because &q=
uot;some people<br>
&gt; said so now&quot;<br>
<br>
Where where you when embedded RP was standardized so that you can throw sto=
nes ? ;-)<br>
<br>
My concern about=C2=A0 SRH is that it is waste on midpoint SIDs not that <b=
r>
abuse of IPv6 addresses is bad.<br>
<br>
I liked Pierre&#39;s bitstring in IPv6 addr, i just felt it was too short t=
o be useful.<br>
<br>
I liked terrastreams QoS encoding in IPv6 addresses.<br>
<br>
If you want people to stop (ab)using IPv6 addresses, you need<br>
to give operators other header elements in which to carry policy.<br>
Flexible extensible not only by vendors.<br>
<br>
I tried to bring frameworks like this to IETF and was immediatly<br>
confronted by the IETF perpass/privacy lobby: Routers should not know<br>
anything.<br>
<br>
Ok, now i&#39;ve run miles away from subject matter to my favourite soap bo=
x.<br>
<br>
&gt; but the ultimately governing body are v6 working groups not<br>
&gt; us. In fact, AFAIR v6 specs you can&#39;t, almost without exceptions (=
see the<br>
&gt; raging discussions on SRv6 PHP, SRv6 basically breaking the &quot;no v=
6 address<br>
&gt; has semantics behind subnetting&quot;, mucking around with options the=
y have no<br>
&gt; business to muck with and so on).where v6 is acting as L2 basically an=
d not<br>
&gt; some end-2-end forwarding transport with semantics encoding.<br>
<br>
RFC8200 was written for uncontrolled internet paths, SRH/SRv6 was designed =
for<br>
controlled networks. Huge overhead as a result. If not for<br>
(predecessors) of RFC8200 would have from the beginning been something<br>
like CRH (which still has to argue representing IPv6 adddresses with<br>
mapping to suite RFC8200).<br>
<br>
RFC8200 is a plane to travel the planet. No, its not ideal to drive on <br>
highways, but nobody in the IETF wants to build a car. IPng process was<br>
30 years ago, and we still think its results is sufficient for all<br>
futures.<br>
<br>
&gt; If you start to shove BIER frames<br>
&gt; around tunnels to show up in arbitrary places it&#39;s like shoving MP=
LS frames<br>
&gt; to weird places and expect &quot;labels to work&quot;. A BIER bitmask =
is basically a<br>
&gt; very weird label with really only local significance on the link and n=
ot<br>
&gt; using it correctly will make you expose BIER mask in places where they=
 do<br>
&gt; the wrong stuff (just like MPLS labels).<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t buy that argument. All VPNs are overlay networks (PE to PE), an=
d<br>
operators know how to build them. Most L3 router networks are overlay<br>
networks on top of an optical switched underlay providing p2p colored<br>
connections, and those paths are often manually configured, similar to<br>
what i did 30 years ago with X.25 PVCs. All 3G/4G/5G &quot;core&quot; netwo=
rks<br>
are overlays. Building overlays happens everywhere. Some are better,<br>
some are worth, often in the eye of the beholder.<br>
<br>
&gt; Yes, bypassing non-supporting<br>
&gt; nodes is ok if we control the semantics of that tightly but everything=
 else<br>
&gt; is basically brfeaking the architecture with a long tail fallout. BIER=
 is<br>
&gt; carefully thought out and reviewed and lots of stuff has security/OAM/=
etc<br>
&gt; implications and that&#39;s what the WG is chartered to govern and not=
 come up<br>
&gt; with some &quot;fashionable hacks&quot; with the acronyms du jour.<br>
<br>
I think the best thing BIER can do is to promote the option of<br>
automatic mapping from a self-intelligent underlay, aka: the<br>
fully automatic IGP option described in rfc8297. <br>
<br>
I don&#39;t know how important partial upgrades/adoption of BIER within an<=
br>
IGP domain is, but i have seen a lot of asks for this for prior IP<br>
multicast technologies (especially in SPs), and it is so much easier now<br=
>
with BIER given how we are relying on autoconfiguration via IGP<br>
information. That makes it excitingly more attractive than the<br>
problematic solutions we tried to build earlier where we where not<br>
given the option to exten IGPs.<br>
<br>
&gt; And yes, you can use BIER &quot;in overlay&quot; but that is not the c=
urrent charter<br>
&gt; of BIER WG as many other things are not. Or that would be a &quot;BIER=
-BESS&quot;<br>
&gt; group I guess ...<br>
<br>
Ethernet is also a useless overlay for p2p links. Can we please<br>
only support HDLC headers ? SRv6 whether RH or CRH is always<br>
an overlay. <br>
<br>
If we come up with a solution that allows smooth incremental adoption<br>
of BIER in an IGP domain by using IPv6 encap as long as there are<br>
no full ethernet encap paths, and then automatically switch to=C2=A0 ethern=
et<br>
encap paths unless there is a policy override (&quot;operator loves IPv6<br=
>
encap or reuse IPv6 FRR), i think we are on a good path for the first<br>
round document.<br>
<br>
The main issue i see is tht most multicst use is in VPNs, and i am<br>
not sure we have a good VPN solution without MPLS without some<br>
way to encapsulate destination SIDs like we have in MPLS.<br>
<br>
&gt; And yes, &quot;it&#39;s lame industry stuff&quot; you&#39;re quoting, =
we have v6 standards<br>
&gt; track documents signed of and 6man to govern all that stuff and argume=
nts<br>
&gt; along the lines &quot;but my silicon doesn&#39;t do that&quot; or &quo=
t;this implementation is<br>
&gt; lousy&quot; I&#39;m sympathetic to but to quote Yakov here &quot;I can=
not prevent you<br>
&gt; doing whatever you want to do in your privacy with the spec I&#39;m pu=
blishing<br>
&gt; but do not ask me to standardize your stuff if it does not follow the<=
br>
&gt; governing architecture and needs interoperability&quot;.<br>
<br>
Its also bad to publish supposedly well-meaning architectures when<br>
you&#39;re not the one having to suffer on its issues. Should i bring on<br=
>
my rant about IPv6 scoped address architecture ? None of the folks who<br>
wrote that ever thought about IPv6 multicast.<br>
<br>
At best, architectures are good intentions. If they are assumed to be<br>
cast in stome they become dogmas.<br>
<br>
&gt; And yes, please cross-post, I don&#39;t want 6man or spring to be led =
down some<br>
&gt; garden path without being plugged in into the BIER working group where=
 the<br>
&gt; BIER technology is governed.<br>
<br>
Input from othre WGs is only that: Input. As i said, we do need to be<br>
worried about them claiming they can prohibit options we as BIER like<br>
to do - because of dogmas.<br>
<br>
Toerless<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --- tony<br>
<br>
-- <br>
---<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"_blank">tte@cs.fau.de</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000005ae5fa05a0af1ae7--


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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 22:36:01 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>, bier@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Bier] [v6ops] IPv6 link-local traffic questions
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On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:18:32PM +1100, Mark Smith wrote:
> RFC4007  allows packets with link-local destinations to be forwarded
> by a router, but only back onto the same link:

Oh, my favourite coffin nail RFC.

> "Thus, if a
>    router receives a packet with a link-local destination address that
>    is not one of the router's own link-local addresses on the arrival
>    link, the router is expected to try to forward the packet to the
>    destination on that link (subject to successful determination of the
>    destination's link-layer address via the Neighbor Discovery protocol
>    [9]).  The forwarded packet may be transmitted back through the
>    arrival interface, or through any other interface attached to the
>    same link."
>
> 
> I think in theory that could also mean forwarded to another router on
> the link that then forwards back again onto the link etc., so it is
> valid for a packet with a link-local destination address to have an
> initial Hop Count value that allows it to be forwarded by multiple
> routers, all limited to being forwarded within the same link.

So this behavior breaks both TTL=1 and RFC5082 packets.

Nice. This RFC is getting better every time i learn more of it.

> This draft might be useful, as it collects together and summarises
> information about using Link-Local Addresses (and is something I've
> been meaning to get back to updating, suggestions welcome):
> 
> How to use IPv6 Link-Local Addresses in Applications
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-ipv6-link-locals-apps-00

Nice.

Let me split that off.

cheers
    Toerless


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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 23:56:42 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, bier-ads@ietf.org, iana@iana.org, BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Ethertype for non-MPLS BIER suggestion
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Thanks, Alvaro.

If you have a reliable queue system, feel free to put it on the bottom,
i just stumbled across it when tracing something more relevant and
thought i would forget it if i didn't rise it now as an issue. YOu
certainly will have more important things to do right now.

Cheers
    Toeress

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 09:00:39PM +0000, Alvaro Retana wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I didn???t make this request, but according to the policy the request to the
> IEEE RA is to be made after approval for publication???but before the RFC is
> published.  I guess that???s how we got in this situation.
> 
> I assume that the way to update the entry is to contact the IEEE RA.  I
> sent a message to the IEEE/IETF coordination team ??? with any luck, they
> have a simple process for an update and we can take care of this (and
> potentially other entries).
> 
> I???ll then take the AI.
> 
> Alvaro.
> 
> On March 12, 2020 at 3:29:41 PM, Tony Przygienda (tonysietf@gmail.com)
> wrote:
> 
> yeah, not something I want to chase right now but I get your point. In case
> you get enlightened how the description can be updated, let me know and
> we'll start chasing it ...
> 
> --- tony
> 
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:37 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> 
> > I never finalized getting ethertypes from IEEE
> > myself yet, so not sure about the processes.
> >
> > Would be nice if IANA or some other designated entity
> > could take ownership of these assignments, right now
> > the 8 ethertypes mentioning drafts which are all RFCs
> > now are all over the place. "TRILL WG", routing-area
> > or even "Cisco" (SFC/NSH).
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:01:39PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > > oh, I see. no idea what the proper "update" procedure in IEEE is. Someone
> > > feels like ferreting that out?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:00 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm surprised, there was an official liaison and assignment from IEEE
> > of
> > > > the ethertype. Alia handled it while I remember having filed _the_
> > forms
> > > > ;-) for her ...
> > > >
> > > > --- tony
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Dear IANA, BIER leadership
> > > >>
> > > >> Not sure what normal IANA procedures are (or for that matter IEEE
> > > >> procedures),
> > > >> but:
> > > >>
> > > >> I would appreciate if there was an attempt made to update the
> > following
> > > >> record with IEEE:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://standards-oui.ieee.org/ethertype/eth.txt
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> AB37                          IETF Routing Area   Please read
> > > >> draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation-12 at
> > > >>                               5177 Brandin Court
> > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation/..
> > > >>
> > > >>                               Fremont  CA  94538
> > > >>
> > > >>                               US
> > > >>
> > > >> Aka: Ask IEEE to change explanatory text to rfc8296
> > > >>
> > > >> And for that matter, maybe IANA could check the other 7 entries of
> > > >> "draft-ietf" in that registry, and get them updated accordingly.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >>     Toerless
> > > >>
> > > >> P.S.: Great to see Routing Area has a physical mailbox address at the
> > > >> LLC. Is that the right way to send snail mail to our AD's ? (don't
> > > >> answer, just kidding).
> > > >>
> > > >
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > BIER mailing list
> > > BIER@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
> >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte@cs.fau.de
> >

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


From nobody Thu Mar 12 16:49:56 2020
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From: Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 16:49:39 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMGpriXhxfM0b4YdCcB9__b=9Us3NosQMXNF4F7QQmeyOUE4Jg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, bier@ietf.org, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] [v6ops] IPv6 link-local traffic questions
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On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 2:36 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:18:32PM +1100, Mark Smith wrote:
> > RFC4007  allows packets with link-local destinations to be forwarded
> > by a router, but only back onto the same link:
>
> Oh, my favourite coffin nail RFC.
>
> > "Thus, if a
> >    router receives a packet with a link-local destination address that
> >    is not one of the router's own link-local addresses on the arrival
> >    link, the router is expected to try to forward the packet to the
> >    destination on that link (subject to successful determination of the
> >    destination's link-layer address via the Neighbor Discovery protocol
> >    [9]).  The forwarded packet may be transmitted back through the
> >    arrival interface, or through any other interface attached to the
> >    same link."
> >
> >
> > I think in theory that could also mean forwarded to another router on
> > the link that then forwards back again onto the link etc., so it is
> > valid for a packet with a link-local destination address to have an
> > initial Hop Count value that allows it to be forwarded by multiple
> > routers, all limited to being forwarded within the same link.
>
> So this behavior breaks both TTL=1 and RFC5082 packets.
>
> Nice. This RFC is getting better every time i learn more of it.
>

My personal experience is that 255 is standard for link-local unicast
communications, and 1 is commonly used for link-local multicast.

> This draft might be useful, as it collects together and summarises
> > information about using Link-Local Addresses (and is something I've
> > been meaning to get back to updating, suggestions welcome):
> >
> > How to use IPv6 Link-Local Addresses in Applications
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-ipv6-link-locals-apps-00
>
> Nice.
>
> Let me split that off.
>
> cheers
>     Toerless
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 2:36 PM Toerl=
ess Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, Mar 12=
, 2020 at 12:18:32PM +1100, Mark Smith wrote:<br>
&gt; RFC4007=C2=A0 allows packets with link-local destinations to be forwar=
ded<br>
&gt; by a router, but only back onto the same link:<br>
<br>
Oh, my favourite coffin nail RFC.<br>
<br>
&gt; &quot;Thus, if a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 router receives a packet with a link-local destination ad=
dress that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is not one of the router&#39;s own link-local addresses o=
n the arrival<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 link, the router is expected to try to forward the packet=
 to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 destination on that link (subject to successful determina=
tion of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 destination&#39;s link-layer address via the Neighbor Dis=
covery protocol<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [9]).=C2=A0 The forwarded packet may be transmitted back =
through the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 arrival interface, or through any other interface attache=
d to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 same link.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think in theory that could also mean forwarded to another router on<=
br>
&gt; the link that then forwards back again onto the link etc., so it is<br=
>
&gt; valid for a packet with a link-local destination address to have an<br=
>
&gt; initial Hop Count value that allows it to be forwarded by multiple<br>
&gt; routers, all limited to being forwarded within the same link.<br>
<br>
So this behavior breaks both TTL=3D1 and RFC5082 packets.<br>
<br>
Nice. This RFC is getting better every time i learn more of it.<br></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>My personal experience is that 255 is standard for=
 link-local unicast communications, and 1 is commonly used for link-local m=
ulticast.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">
&gt; This draft might be useful, as it collects together and summarises<br>
&gt; information about using Link-Local Addresses (and is something I&#39;v=
e<br>
&gt; been meaning to get back to updating, suggestions welcome):<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; How to use IPv6 Link-Local Addresses in Applications<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-ipv6-link-locals-ap=
ps-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-smith-ipv6-link-locals-apps-00</a><br>
<br>
Nice.<br>
<br>
Let me split that off.<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless<br>
<br>
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IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
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</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 17:05:01 -0700
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To: Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>,  BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] [v6ops] IPv6 link-local traffic questions
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interesting exchange and Erik's last observation (ttl=1 and LL for
multicast) puts it on the point, we are talking here a suggestion for BIER
control plane where the contained packet is multicast. I would hate to see
a multicast packet due to TTL > 1 end up in funky place and replicated
there.

Another interesting question is what if the LL source and destination are
the same and TTL>1 but AFAIK that cannot happen since LL is generated using
EUI-64 (albeit to my surprise I saw enough customers running same LL
address on all links of a device & this is valid :-/

That aside, as I mentioned to Toerless that LL with TTL=1 is usual stuff
since long time, we are talking here either something like BFD router to
router or now in case of BIER it's suggested to be used as "implicit one
hop tunnel" basically carrying BIER frame router-to-router instead of ether
encaps (since BIER is L2.5, strictly speaking "abusing" v6 as transport is
bit rich but it satisfies things like HOMENET which need mutlicast very
nicely where the silicon doesn't need to process BIER but processes naive
v6 easily, after v6 decaps it can go to slow path since HOMENET doesn't
need any serious mcast throughtput [but nothing special AFAIS if the
silicon chooses to process it after the decaps when demand arises or when
used e.g. in core])

thanks

--- tony



On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 4:50 PM Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 2:36 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:18:32PM +1100, Mark Smith wrote:
>> > RFC4007  allows packets with link-local destinations to be forwarded
>> > by a router, but only back onto the same link:
>>
>> Oh, my favourite coffin nail RFC.
>>
>> > "Thus, if a
>> >    router receives a packet with a link-local destination address that
>> >    is not one of the router's own link-local addresses on the arrival
>> >    link, the router is expected to try to forward the packet to the
>> >    destination on that link (subject to successful determination of the
>> >    destination's link-layer address via the Neighbor Discovery protocol
>> >    [9]).  The forwarded packet may be transmitted back through the
>> >    arrival interface, or through any other interface attached to the
>> >    same link."
>> >
>> >
>> > I think in theory that could also mean forwarded to another router on
>> > the link that then forwards back again onto the link etc., so it is
>> > valid for a packet with a link-local destination address to have an
>> > initial Hop Count value that allows it to be forwarded by multiple
>> > routers, all limited to being forwarded within the same link.
>>
>> So this behavior breaks both TTL=1 and RFC5082 packets.
>>
>> Nice. This RFC is getting better every time i learn more of it.
>>
>
> My personal experience is that 255 is standard for link-local unicast
> communications, and 1 is commonly used for link-local multicast.
>
> > This draft might be useful, as it collects together and summarises
>> > information about using Link-Local Addresses (and is something I've
>> > been meaning to get back to updating, suggestions welcome):
>> >
>> > How to use IPv6 Link-Local Addresses in Applications
>> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-ipv6-link-locals-apps-00
>>
>> Nice.
>>
>> Let me split that off.
>>
>> cheers
>>     Toerless
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
> _______________________________________________
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>interesting exchange and Erik&#39;s last observation =
(ttl=3D1 and LL for multicast) puts it on the point, we are talking here a =
suggestion for BIER control plane where the contained packet is multicast. =
I would hate to see a multicast packet due to TTL &gt; 1 end up in funky pl=
ace and replicated there. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Another interesting=
 question is what if the LL source and destination are the same and TTL&gt;=
1 but AFAIK that cannot happen since LL is generated using EUI-64 (albeit t=
o my surprise I saw enough customers running same LL address on all links o=
f a device &amp; this is valid :-/<br></div><div><br></div><div>That aside,=
 as I mentioned to Toerless that LL with TTL=3D1 is usual stuff since long =
time, we are talking here either something like BFD router to router or now=
 in case of BIER it&#39;s suggested to be used as &quot;implicit one hop tu=
nnel&quot; basically carrying BIER frame router-to-router instead of ether =
encaps (since BIER is L2.5, strictly speaking &quot;abusing&quot; v6 as tra=
nsport is bit rich but it satisfies things like HOMENET which need mutlicas=
t very nicely where the silicon doesn&#39;t need to process BIER but proces=
ses naive v6 easily, after v6 decaps it can go to slow path since HOMENET d=
oesn&#39;t need any serious mcast throughtput [but nothing special AFAIS if=
 the silicon chooses to process it after the decaps when demand arises or w=
hen used e.g. in core]) <br></div><div><br></div><div>thanks <br></div><div=
><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Ma=
r 12, 2020 at 4:50 PM Erik Kline &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ek.ietf@gmail.com">e=
k.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020=
 at 2:36 PM Toerless Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de" target=3D"=
_blank">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:18:32PM +1100, Mark Smith w=
rote:<br>
&gt; RFC4007=C2=A0 allows packets with link-local destinations to be forwar=
ded<br>
&gt; by a router, but only back onto the same link:<br>
<br>
Oh, my favourite coffin nail RFC.<br>
<br>
&gt; &quot;Thus, if a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 router receives a packet with a link-local destination ad=
dress that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is not one of the router&#39;s own link-local addresses o=
n the arrival<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 link, the router is expected to try to forward the packet=
 to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 destination on that link (subject to successful determina=
tion of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 destination&#39;s link-layer address via the Neighbor Dis=
covery protocol<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [9]).=C2=A0 The forwarded packet may be transmitted back =
through the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 arrival interface, or through any other interface attache=
d to the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 same link.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think in theory that could also mean forwarded to another router on<=
br>
&gt; the link that then forwards back again onto the link etc., so it is<br=
>
&gt; valid for a packet with a link-local destination address to have an<br=
>
&gt; initial Hop Count value that allows it to be forwarded by multiple<br>
&gt; routers, all limited to being forwarded within the same link.<br>
<br>
So this behavior breaks both TTL=3D1 and RFC5082 packets.<br>
<br>
Nice. This RFC is getting better every time i learn more of it.<br></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>My personal experience is that 255 is standard for=
 link-local unicast communications, and 1 is commonly used for link-local m=
ulticast.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">
&gt; This draft might be useful, as it collects together and summarises<br>
&gt; information about using Link-Local Addresses (and is something I&#39;v=
e<br>
&gt; been meaning to get back to updating, suggestions welcome):<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; How to use IPv6 Link-Local Addresses in Applications<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-ipv6-link-locals-ap=
ps-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-smith-ipv6-link-locals-apps-00</a><br>
<br>
Nice.<br>
<br>
Let me split that off.<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
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info/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
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</blockquote></div>

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 01:12:04 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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Inline

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 02:31:52PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> Good rant but reread my Yakov quote. Yes, people will always love shortcuts
> and have ideas for their golden use case, this has little to do with the
> fact whether IETF should standardize it.
> 
> As side input: _All_ silicon peopleI I talked to (well, maybe I just talked
> to sane silicon people ;-) considered decaps'ing far more desirable than

Who is sane, the silicon or the people ? ;-)

> option processing, no matter whether it's v4 or v6. They like to end up
> with a BIER frame they can throw @ BIER MPLS/non-MPLS block (and the
> silicon for tunnel encaps/decaps is very good & generic on all sane
> silicons AFAIU).

That's fine. Thats independent of the possible optimization that you
probably can do re-encap easier when you already had the same header
before decap (just moving pointer forward to BIER header and the
backward later).

> Option processing is a mild nightmare, especially if
> you're not sure where they are and how big they get and once they blow you
> scratchpad size you end up re'circ the packet and pay 50% bandwidht penalty
> (or you double your scratchpad size paying a completley non-linear cost in
> real estate and power consumption) ... just my 2c but those guys are tied
> by electrons and mostly have strong opinions based on atoms they shuffle
> around ...

I'l compress that into "silicon hates variable offsets it need to calculate
through lookups".

Yes, i hate that limitation and want to get it changed, but agree that
for todays reality its good to live with it. Actually i do like to
see this as part of explanation in our document.

The idea from xie's draft that we could actually consider forcing
compliance of our defined header from that semantic being attached
to the desstination address, handling it like a SID would IMHO
actually be the best way to make life for this silicon easier:

The FIB lookup for this destination address immediately implies that
this the next processing is BIER header at offset <static>. Maybe
only as an optimization option.

This would still allow us to use either NH (sandy) or DO (xie) for
the BIER header.

The bigger issue is how we support the VPN solutions IMHO. Ideally
we would allow for an SRH/CRH header that would be processed
after BFER processing, to provide the additional context / processing
SIDs to the application on the BFER. But how could we place it
so that it doesn't impact the efficient BIER forwarding. Without
creating a third IPv6 header...

Cheers
    Toerless
> 
> --- tony
> 
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 1:29 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:23:13PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > > > parsing failed. Can you plsease rephrase ?
> > >
> > > OK, if you use LL and TTL=1 you basically won't manage to send to wrong
> > > link or more than one hop so it forces a link-by-link L2.5 fabric which
> > is
> > > BIER architecture day one on standard RFC (+ exception allowed to _bypass
> > > non-BIER supporting nodes_).
> >
> > Sure, and we have L2 encap for that and should promote it and make sure
> > it will happen in IPv6 deployments.
> >
> > If LL IPv6 tunnels in forwarding plane would be used widely in othre IETF
> > technologies i would be less concerned. Right not it is not, and
> > so i am worried to have an IPv6 encap profile in our draft that makes
> > adoption most easy.
> >
> > > be. We can discuss out whether we should bput "SHOULD" with BIER prefix
> > > (I'm kind of leery of v6 global addressing since that's not always given)
> > > but then we need to talk how we deal with parallel links (or maybe we
> > don't
> > > have to given BIER only addresses whole BFR with a bit, I kind of didn't
> > do
> > > enough careful thinking here yet).
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > BIER is a switching fabric technology @
> > > > > L2.5 and not an overlay (and yes, it can be used that way but this
> > is IMO
> > > > > jsut as far from BIER as BESS is from idr ;-)
> > > >
> > > > See my other discuss point about the IMHO most 'useful' modes of
> > > > deployment/forwarding. Those would be good to discuss in the drafts.
> > > >
> > > > Partial or full deployment of BIER with IPv6 encap:
> > > >   BIFR-to-BFER IPv6 encapsulated, per-BIER-hop rewrite of IPv6 header
> > > >   No differnce between partial or full deployment,
> > > >      should work automatically calculating remote next-hop in partial.
> > > >
> > >
> > > There is somehow a huge misconception that as intermediate node you can
> > > "rewrite headers and options on v6 while keeping the source address"in
> > > flight
> >
> > Well, thats what SRH does. BIER also rewrites bitstring.
> > rewriting IPv6 dest and optional source should in general
> > be easier than actual decap+encap. Tell me if i am wrong.
> >
> > > and "adresses can encode my uncle's birthday" because "some people
> > > said so now"
> >
> > Where where you when embedded RP was standardized so that you can throw
> > stones ? ;-)
> >
> > My concern about  SRH is that it is waste on midpoint SIDs not that
> > abuse of IPv6 addresses is bad.
> >
> > I liked Pierre's bitstring in IPv6 addr, i just felt it was too short to
> > be useful.
> >
> > I liked terrastreams QoS encoding in IPv6 addresses.
> >
> > If you want people to stop (ab)using IPv6 addresses, you need
> > to give operators other header elements in which to carry policy.
> > Flexible extensible not only by vendors.
> >
> > I tried to bring frameworks like this to IETF and was immediatly
> > confronted by the IETF perpass/privacy lobby: Routers should not know
> > anything.
> >
> > Ok, now i've run miles away from subject matter to my favourite soap box.
> >
> > > but the ultimately governing body are v6 working groups not
> > > us. In fact, AFAIR v6 specs you can't, almost without exceptions (see the
> > > raging discussions on SRv6 PHP, SRv6 basically breaking the "no v6
> > address
> > > has semantics behind subnetting", mucking around with options they have
> > no
> > > business to muck with and so on).where v6 is acting as L2 basically and
> > not
> > > some end-2-end forwarding transport with semantics encoding.
> >
> > RFC8200 was written for uncontrolled internet paths, SRH/SRv6 was designed
> > for
> > controlled networks. Huge overhead as a result. If not for
> > (predecessors) of RFC8200 would have from the beginning been something
> > like CRH (which still has to argue representing IPv6 adddresses with
> > mapping to suite RFC8200).
> >
> > RFC8200 is a plane to travel the planet. No, its not ideal to drive on
> > highways, but nobody in the IETF wants to build a car. IPng process was
> > 30 years ago, and we still think its results is sufficient for all
> > futures.
> >
> > > If you start to shove BIER frames
> > > around tunnels to show up in arbitrary places it's like shoving MPLS
> > frames
> > > to weird places and expect "labels to work". A BIER bitmask is basically
> > a
> > > very weird label with really only local significance on the link and not
> > > using it correctly will make you expose BIER mask in places where they do
> > > the wrong stuff (just like MPLS labels).
> >
> > I don't buy that argument. All VPNs are overlay networks (PE to PE), and
> > operators know how to build them. Most L3 router networks are overlay
> > networks on top of an optical switched underlay providing p2p colored
> > connections, and those paths are often manually configured, similar to
> > what i did 30 years ago with X.25 PVCs. All 3G/4G/5G "core" networks
> > are overlays. Building overlays happens everywhere. Some are better,
> > some are worth, often in the eye of the beholder.
> >
> > > Yes, bypassing non-supporting
> > > nodes is ok if we control the semantics of that tightly but everything
> > else
> > > is basically brfeaking the architecture with a long tail fallout. BIER is
> > > carefully thought out and reviewed and lots of stuff has security/OAM/etc
> > > implications and that's what the WG is chartered to govern and not come
> > up
> > > with some "fashionable hacks" with the acronyms du jour.
> >
> > I think the best thing BIER can do is to promote the option of
> > automatic mapping from a self-intelligent underlay, aka: the
> > fully automatic IGP option described in rfc8297.
> >
> > I don't know how important partial upgrades/adoption of BIER within an
> > IGP domain is, but i have seen a lot of asks for this for prior IP
> > multicast technologies (especially in SPs), and it is so much easier now
> > with BIER given how we are relying on autoconfiguration via IGP
> > information. That makes it excitingly more attractive than the
> > problematic solutions we tried to build earlier where we where not
> > given the option to exten IGPs.
> >
> > > And yes, you can use BIER "in overlay" but that is not the current
> > charter
> > > of BIER WG as many other things are not. Or that would be a "BIER-BESS"
> > > group I guess ...
> >
> > Ethernet is also a useless overlay for p2p links. Can we please
> > only support HDLC headers ? SRv6 whether RH or CRH is always
> > an overlay.
> >
> > If we come up with a solution that allows smooth incremental adoption
> > of BIER in an IGP domain by using IPv6 encap as long as there are
> > no full ethernet encap paths, and then automatically switch to  ethernet
> > encap paths unless there is a policy override ("operator loves IPv6
> > encap or reuse IPv6 FRR), i think we are on a good path for the first
> > round document.
> >
> > The main issue i see is tht most multicst use is in VPNs, and i am
> > not sure we have a good VPN solution without MPLS without some
> > way to encapsulate destination SIDs like we have in MPLS.
> >
> > > And yes, "it's lame industry stuff" you're quoting, we have v6 standards
> > > track documents signed of and 6man to govern all that stuff and arguments
> > > along the lines "but my silicon doesn't do that" or "this implementation
> > is
> > > lousy" I'm sympathetic to but to quote Yakov here "I cannot prevent you
> > > doing whatever you want to do in your privacy with the spec I'm
> > publishing
> > > but do not ask me to standardize your stuff if it does not follow the
> > > governing architecture and needs interoperability".
> >
> > Its also bad to publish supposedly well-meaning architectures when
> > you're not the one having to suffer on its issues. Should i bring on
> > my rant about IPv6 scoped address architecture ? None of the folks who
> > wrote that ever thought about IPv6 multicast.
> >
> > At best, architectures are good intentions. If they are assumed to be
> > cast in stome they become dogmas.
> >
> > > And yes, please cross-post, I don't want 6man or spring to be led down
> > some
> > > garden path without being plugged in into the BIER working group where
> > the
> > > BIER technology is governed.
> >
> > Input from othre WGs is only that: Input. As i said, we do need to be
> > worried about them claiming they can prohibit options we as BIER like
> > to do - because of dogmas.
> >
> > Toerless
> > >
> > > --- tony
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte@cs.fau.de
> >

> _______________________________________________
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> BIER@ietf.org
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---
tte@cs.fau.de


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Hi Toerless,



Please find below my answer 1-9 marked as [XJR1] to [XJR9] in blue text.



Thanks

Jingrong





> 1.  Introduction

> 2.  Terminology

> 3.  BIER IPv6 Encapsulation



I think it would be good to write introductory text here explaining the

overall approach of this encapsulation, e.g: BFIR running this option

encapsulate the target IP multicast payload (IPv6, IPv6, ethernet packet)

into a BIERv6 packet, which is an IPv6 packet with the new BIERv6 header.

This packet is then hop-by-hop IPv6 forwarded with the BIER replication

semantic defined by the BIERv6 header and decapsulated on the BFERs.

[XJR1] I understand it as an editorial suggestion. Correct me if I am wrong



> 3.1.  BIER Option in IPv6 Destination Options Header

>         BSL: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.

>         Entropy: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.

>         OAM: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.

>         Rsv: See Section 2.1.2 of RFC 8296.



Is there anything up to here that is different from what RFC8296 for non-MP=
LS

networks ? If there are new things here, they are hard to identify,

so it might be better to eliminate all requirments that can be found in

RFC8296 2.2 and only describe any changes.

[XJR2] Editorial suggestion taken.



>         DSCP: SHOULD be set to binary value 000000 upon transmission and

>         MUST be ignored upon reception.  In IPv6 BIER encapsulation,

>         uses highest 6-bit of Traffic Class field of IPv6 header to hold

>         a Differentiated Services Codepoint [RFC2474].



Given how this draft suggests to verbatim reuse the quite long RFC8296

forwarding header (like other proposals for BIER with IPv6 too), i think

the hope is that it can leverage as much as possible existing BIER

forwarding logic to ease adoption. It is therefore not clear to me if

it is prudent to force the forwarding plane to use the DSCP from the IPv6

header instead of the BIER header. I would suggest to say that  the BFIR us=
es

the same DSCP for both the IPv6 and BIER header so that forwarding plane

can use either field, which ever is easier to impleemnt. Else, it would be

good o have an explanation in the text why the above described approach

is superior.

[XJR3] I think I agree with most of the words here, while there are technic=
al design considerations for DSCP/TC/TTL/Entropy for some important scenari=
os.



In RFC8296, TC/TTL is designed for BIER-MPLS, and when the BIER-MPLS over P=
2P-LSP is used for bypassing Non-BFR routers, the TC/TTL will works in pipe=
-mode or uniform-mode.

While in BIERv6 design, the TC/TTL in BIER-hdr and TC/HopLimit in IPv6-hdr =
can both stand for its own purpose: the former is used for BIER-aware route=
rs(BFRs), and the later is used for BIER-unaware routers(Non-BFRs)!

It is also useful for diagnose by network administrator to know how many No=
n-BFRs and BFRs in the path be checking the HopLimit in IPv6-Hdr and TTL in=
 BIER-Hdr on the BFER.



So does Entropy in BIER-hdr and FlowLabel in IPv6-hdr: the FlowLabel can be=
 used for load-balance when forwarding a BIERv6 packet from A(BFR)----B(Non=
BFR)=3D=3D=3D=3DC(BFR) where B can use, and BIER Entropy can be used by BFR=
 A.

That shows an advantage of BIERv6 proposal than BIER-MPLS: BIER-MPLS over P=
2P-LSP may be difficult to support load-balance since the Non-BFR can't rea=
d through a BIER header to get a hash value through inner IP header.



This kind of advantage matches the design target of BIERv6 ---- for smooth =
and ease of deployment in IPv6 network where Non-BFR is very common and lik=
ely to be continuing for a very long time.



>            Use Next Header value 4, 41 and TBD0 for IPv4 packet, IPv6

>            packet and Ethernet packet respectively,



In general, this document might not constrain itself to specific code

points but just allow all the code-points that users want and are

defined by IANA. IPv4 and IPv6 of course can be explicitly listed

maybe even with requirements levels.



Rewrite text for TBD0 to instead say "code point for ethernet from <srv6 re=
ference-doc>",

so this doc wouldn't need to wait for it.

[XJR4] This problem has been addressed in the rev-06. I suppose you started=
 this review quite a few days before I post the rev-06. Thanks for this tho=
rough review!



>            and use Proto value

>            TBD1 indicating "Delivering the data packet with VRF lookup

>            in IPv6 source address".



I am right now not on top of how BIER in MPLS networks supports the more co=
mplex

forms of VRFs, e.g.: extranet VRFs, but i thought it was through additional

labels after the BIER header. Logically a BFIR might only have one

address in VRF0, so it could be problematic to expect for BIER to

assume per-VRF addresses as source addresses.



[XJR5] I think you are right. Currently the BIER are using the "BIER Proto"=
 mechanism excessively in my mind. Allow me to explain the "excessively" he=
re:



(1) To support IPv4/IPv6/Ethernet multicast packet, BIER Proto=3D3/4/6 are =
defined, but won't support VRF function.

(2) To support VRF, the most common design (as used in RFC8556) is an upstr=
eam-assigned VPN Label following the BIER header, and BIER Proto=3D2 is def=
ined, but it heavily depend on the Context in the BIER header, and when the=
 BIER-MPLS PHP is proposed, it doesn't work.

(3) Alternative of supporting VRF is using an domain-wide unique VPN Label =
following the BIER header, and BIER Proto=3D1 is defined, but it does not s=
upport RPF function (which is an essential function to MVPN), or it need an=
other Per-Ingress domain-wide unique MPLS label, and change the RPF functio=
n implementation to another way that is completely different than BIER Prot=
o =3D 2.

(4) There are also other proposals of BIER Proto value, for example, there =
is proposal of BIER Proto=3D7/8/9 for VXLAN/NVGRE/GENEVE, which can be used=
 to support VRF function, while all these seems not likely to support RPF f=
unction.

(5) Totally there are 8 types of BIER Proto value, and 5 types of different=
 overlay headers (upstream-assigned MPLS Label, downstream-assigned MPLS la=
bel stack, VXLAN, NVGRE, GENEVE), but none of them can fulfill a Whole func=
tion that proposed so far ---- VRF, RPF, PHP.  Not to mention that, each ty=
pe of BIER Proto and each type of overlay header means chip effort to suppo=
rt. Remember that each encoding of overlay header means a whole different h=
andling, not only the VRF information, but every bits in an encoding need t=
o be handled.



Why is that ? I think a most useful design principle is lost in the Proto c=
hain design ---- Optimizing for the most common or important case!

What's the most common and import for multicast then ? ---- I think VRF and=
 RPF are two of them.



To my best understanding, the design of "BIER Proto" brings much flexibilit=
y surely, but excessively use of BIER Proto brings big interoperability cha=
llenge. More likely to me, it is a thing that BIER itself lacks!



However, built on the IPv6 internet-layer (L3), forwarding packet without c=
hanging the IPv6 source address, BIERv6 can bring this benefit:

(1) The global identifier of VRF, that is easy to get (enough bit width to =
allocate, no new type identifier).

(2) The global identifier of Ingress PE for MVPN RPF function.

The design to use per-VRF address solves the above 2 essential functions in=
 a direct way.

It uses only one BIER Proto (with 3 well-known Next Header value of course)=
 and none of extra encoding of overlay header.



What problem do you see for a per-VRF address allocation ---- the waste of =
IPv6 address ?





Maybe it would be easier to move the VRF support into a separate document.

[XJR6] See above. I haven't seen how to leave this essential design of BIER=
v6, related to the combination use of IPv6 Next Header and BIER Proto value=
, can be move to a separate document.



Seems to me as if it would make sense to figure out if BIER with v6

could be combined with some subset of SRv6 that includes the destination

(BFER) related SIDs, most of which seem to be about VRF selection.

[XJR7] My understanding is that it will make the BFRs aware of VRF. Am I co=
rrect ?



That would make inclusion of BIER into SRv6 deployment easier. And

i am guessing that customers who insist on hop-by-hop IPv6 forwarding

across their core would likely minimize differences to SRv6 too.

[XJR8] Using per-VRF IPv6 source addressing is completely different than SR=
v6, just like the upstream-assigned VPN Label used in BIER-MVPN is complete=
ly different than MPLS-VPN.

We can have more discuss if you still have concern about the relationship o=
f BIERv6 and SRv6, or we can move this discussion later together with some =
other text.



>            Allocation of Next Header value TBD0 for Ethernet packet is

>            applying in [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] and

>            will not be listed in the IANA considerations section of this

>            document.



With above change referring only to that doc, not he actual code-point, thi=
s paragraph could go away. Of course, once the code point is IANA assigned,=
 you can simply use it in the text and remove the reference.

[XJR9] Yes we have removed the reference already since the code point is al=
ready IANA assigned (value 143).





-----Original Message-----
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:24 PM
To: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt



Comments on subject document inline. Thanks a lot for the work.



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Toerless,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please find below my answer =
1-9 <span style=3D"color:blue">
marked as [XJR1] to [XJR9] in blue text</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; 1.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> Introduction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; 2.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> Terminology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; 3.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> BIER IPv6 Encapsulation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think it would be good to =
write introductory text here explaining the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">overall approach of this enc=
apsulation, e.g: BFIR running this option<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">encapsulate the target IP mu=
lticast payload (IPv6, IPv6, ethernet packet)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">into a BIERv6 packet, which =
is an IPv6 packet with the new BIERv6 header.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This packet is then hop-by-h=
op IPv6 forwarded with the BIER replication<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">semantic defined by the BIER=
v6 header and decapsulated on the BFERs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR1] =
I understand it as an editorial suggestion. Correct me if I am wrong<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; 3.1.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"> BIER Option in IPv6 Destination Options Header<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> BSL: See Section 2.1.2 =
of RFC 8296.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Entropy: See Section 2.=
1.2 of RFC 8296.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> OAM: See Section 2.1.2 =
of RFC 8296.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Rsv: See Section 2.1.2 =
of RFC 8296.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Is there anything up to here=
 that is different from what RFC8296 for non-MPLS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">networks ? If there are new =
things here, they are hard to identify,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">so it might be better to eli=
minate all requirments that can be found in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">RFC8296 2.2 and only describ=
e any changes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR2] =
Editorial suggestion taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> DSCP: SHOULD be set to =
binary value 000000 upon transmission and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> MUST be ignored upon re=
ception.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&=
quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 In IPv6 BIER encapsulation,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> uses highest 6-bit of T=
raffic Class field of IPv6 header to hold<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> a Differentiated Servic=
es Codepoint [RFC2474].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Given how this draft suggest=
s to verbatim reuse the quite long RFC8296<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">forwarding header (like othe=
r proposals for BIER with IPv6 too), i think<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">the hope is that it can leve=
rage as much as possible existing BIER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">forwarding logic to ease ado=
ption. It is therefore not clear to me if<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">it is prudent to force the f=
orwarding plane to use the DSCP from the IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">header instead of the BIER h=
eader. I would suggest to say that</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> the BFI=
R uses<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">the same DSCP for both the I=
Pv6 and BIER header so that forwarding plane<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">can use either field, which =
ever is easier to impleemnt. Else, it would be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">good o have an explanation i=
n the text why the above described approach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">is superior.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR3] =
I think I agree with most of the words here, while there are technical desi=
gn considerations for DSCP/TC/TTL/Entropy for some important scenarios.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">In RFC8=
296, TC/TTL is designed for BIER-MPLS, and when the BIER-MPLS over P2P-LSP =
is used for bypassing Non-BFR routers, the TC/TTL will works in pipe-mode o=
r uniform-mode.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">While i=
n BIERv6 design, the TC/TTL in BIER-hdr and TC/HopLimit in IPv6-hdr can bot=
h stand for its own purpose: the former is used for BIER-aware routers(BFRs=
), and the later is used for BIER-unaware
 routers(Non-BFRs)!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">It is a=
lso useful for diagnose by network administrator to know how many Non-BFRs =
and BFRs in the path be checking the HopLimit in IPv6-Hdr and TTL in BIER-H=
dr on the BFER.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">So does=
 Entropy in BIER-hdr and FlowLabel in IPv6-hdr: the FlowLabel can be used f=
or load-balance when forwarding a BIERv6 packet from A(BFR)----B(NonBFR)=3D=
=3D=3D=3DC(BFR) where B can use, and BIER Entropy
 can be used by BFR A.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">That sh=
ows an advantage of BIERv6 proposal than BIER-MPLS: BIER-MPLS over P2P-LSP =
may be difficult to support load-balance since the Non-BFR can</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8=
217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">t
 read through a BIER header to get a hash value through inner IP header.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">This ki=
nd of advantage matches the design target of BIERv6 ---- for smooth and eas=
e of deployment in IPv6 network where Non-BFR is very common and likely to =
be continuing for a very long time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Use N=
ext Header value 4, 41 and TBD0 for IPv4 packet, IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> packe=
t and Ethernet packet respectively,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In general, this document mi=
ght not constrain itself to specific code<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">points but just allow all th=
e code-points that users want and are<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">defined by IANA. IPv4 and IP=
v6 of course can be explicitly listed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">maybe even with requirements=
 levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Rewrite text for TBD0 to ins=
tead say &quot;code point for ethernet from &lt;srv6 reference-doc&gt;&quot=
;,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">so this doc wouldn't need to=
 wait for it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR4] =
This problem has been addressed in the rev-06. I suppose you started this r=
eview quite a few days before I post the rev-06. Thanks for this thorough r=
eview!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> and u=
se Proto value<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> TBD1 =
indicating &quot;Delivering the data packet with VRF lookup<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> in IP=
v6 source address&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I am right now not on top of=
 how BIER in MPLS networks supports the more complex<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">forms of VRFs, e.g.: extrane=
t VRFs, but i thought it was through additional<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">labels after the BIER header=
. Logically a BFIR might only have one<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">address in VRF0, so it could=
 be problematic to expect for BIER to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">assume per-VRF addresses as =
source addresses.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR5] =
I think you are right. Currently the BIER are using the
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">BIER Prot=
o</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"> mechani=
sm excessively
 in my mind. Allow me to explain the </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">excessively</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">
 here:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(1) To =
support IPv4/IPv6/Ethernet multicast packet, BIER Proto=3D3/4/6 are defined=
, but won't support VRF function.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(2) To =
support VRF, the most common design (as used in RFC8556) is an upstream-ass=
igned VPN Label following the BIER header, and BIER Proto=3D2 is defined, b=
ut it heavily depend on the Context in the
 BIER header, and when the BIER-MPLS PHP is proposed, it doesn</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8=
217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">t work.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(3) Alt=
ernative of supporting VRF is using an domain-wide unique VPN Label followi=
ng the BIER header, and BIER Proto=3D1 is defined, but it does not support =
RPF function (which is an essential function
 to MVPN), or it need another Per-Ingress domain-wide unique MPLS label, an=
d change the RPF function implementation to another way that is completely =
different than BIER Proto =3D 2.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(4) The=
re are also other proposals of BIER Proto value, for example, there is prop=
osal of BIER Proto=3D7/8/9 for VXLAN/NVGRE/GENEVE, which can be used to sup=
port VRF function, while all these seems
 not likely to support RPF function.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(5) Tot=
ally there are 8 types of BIER Proto value, and 5 types of different overla=
y headers (upstream-assigned MPLS Label, downstream-assigned MPLS label sta=
ck, VXLAN, NVGRE, GENEVE), but none of
 them can fulfill a Whole function that proposed so far ---- VRF, RPF, PHP.=
 </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blu=
e">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Not to mention th=
at, each type of BIER Proto and each type of overlay header means chip effo=
rt to support. Remember that each encoding of overlay header
 means a whole different handling, not only the VRF information, but every =
bits in an encoding need to be handled.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Why is =
that ? I think a most useful design principle is lost in the Proto chain de=
sign ---- Optimizing for the most common or important case!<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">What</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color=
:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">s the most c=
ommon and import for multicast then ? ---- I think VRF and RPF
 are two of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">To my b=
est understanding, the design of
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">BIER Prot=
o</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"> brings =
much
 flexibility surely, but excessively use of BIER Proto brings big interoper=
ability challenge. More likely to me, it is a thing that BIER itself lacks!=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">However=
, built on the IPv6 internet-layer (L3),</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">forwarding packet without changing
 the IPv6 source address, BIERv6 can bring this benefit:<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(1) The=
 global identifier of VRF, that is easy to get (enough bit width to allocat=
e, no new type identifier).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(2) The=
 global identifier of Ingress PE for MVPN RPF function.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The des=
ign to use per-VRF address solves the above 2 essential functions in a dire=
ct way.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">It uses=
 only one BIER Proto (with 3 well-known Next Header value of course) and no=
ne of extra encoding of overlay header.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">What pr=
oblem do you see for a per-VRF address allocation ---- the waste of IPv6 ad=
dress ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Maybe it would be easier to =
move the VRF support into a separate document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR6] =
See above. I haven</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"col=
or:blue">t seen how to leave this essential design of BIERv6,
 related to the combination use of IPv6 Next Header and BIER Proto value, c=
an be move to a separate document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Seems to me as if it would m=
ake sense to figure out if BIER with v6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">could be combined with some =
subset of SRv6 that includes the destination<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">(BFER) related SIDs, most of=
 which seem to be about VRF selection.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR7] =
My understanding is that it will make the BFRs aware of VRF. Am I correct ?=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">That would make inclusion of=
 BIER into SRv6 deployment easier. And<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">i am guessing that customers=
 who insist on hop-by-hop IPv6 forwarding<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">across their core would like=
ly minimize differences to SRv6 too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR8] =
Using per-VRF IPv6 source addressing is completely different than SRv6, jus=
t like the upstream-assigned VPN Label used in BIER-MVPN is completely diff=
erent than MPLS-VPN.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">We can =
have more discuss if you still have concern about the relationship of BIERv=
6 and SRv6, or we can move this discussion later together with some other t=
ext.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Alloc=
ation of Next Header value TBD0 for Ethernet packet is<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> apply=
ing in [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> will =
not be listed in the IANA considerations section of this<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> docum=
ent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">With above change referring =
only to that doc, not he actual code-point, this paragraph could go away. O=
f course, once the code point is IANA assigned, you can simply use it in th=
e text and remove the reference.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR9] =
Yes we have removed the reference already since the code point is already I=
ANA assigned (value 143).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert<br>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:24 PM<br>
To: bier@ietf.org<br>
Subject: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Comments on subject document=
 inline. Thanks a lot for the work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, v6ops list <v6ops@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] [v6ops] IPv6 link-local traffic questions
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Tony:


On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 05:05:01PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> interesting exchange and Erik's last observation (ttl=1 and LL for
> multicast) puts it on the point, we are talking here a suggestion for BIER
> control plane where the contained packet is multicast. I would hate to see
> a multicast packet due to TTL > 1 end up in funky place and replicated
> there.

I was actually talking about the "TTL=1" (*) requirement in 
section 2 of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6, and that is an IPv6 unicast
data plane packet, not a multicast packet. It just carries a mlticast packet.

Which packet where you talking about ?

But your point about possible undesirable replication if TTL>1 for
link-local multicast packets is interesting. I had actually not thought
about that, and can not remember an example. Do you have one ?
RFC5082 for once does not mention the words multicast or unicast,
si it's anybody's guess how it feels its recommendation should be
applied (usually mentioning nothing means unicast only, so in that
sense it could be argued to not be intended to apply to multicast).

> Another interesting question is what if the LL source and destination are
> the same and TTL>1 but AFAIK that cannot happen since LL is generated using
> EUI-64 (albeit to my surprise I saw enough customers running same LL
> address on all links of a device & this is valid :-/

Probably not an issue for the v6 encap layer, but the multicast
layer: RPF failure, or bit-reset in BIER for multicast payloads.

> That aside, as I mentioned to Toerless that LL with TTL=1 is usual stuff
> since long time, we are talking here either something like BFD router to
> router

Yes, has been forever for IPv4 multicast link-local and all the
IPv6 link-local i know (e.g.: OSPF). But i just learned from this
thread that IPv6 Neighbor Discovery multicast packets use 255
(predating RFC5082).

I was also interested i there are any rules which HC to use, but
seemingly it is a free choice of the application,  so we (BIER in IPv6)
can decide as we please, we just may need to beat up the 1 vs 255
argument from their technical proc/cons. 

> or now in case of BIER it's suggested to be used as "implicit one
> hop tunnel" basically carrying BIER frame router-to-router instead of ether
> encaps (since BIER is L2.5, strictly speaking "abusing" v6 as transport is
> bit rich but it satisfies things like HOMENET which need mutlicast very
> nicely where the silicon doesn't need to process BIER but processes naive
> v6 easily, after v6 decaps it can go to slow path since HOMENET doesn't
> need any serious mcast throughtput [but nothing special AFAIS if the
> silicon chooses to process it after the decaps when demand arises or when
> used e.g. in core])

May sales pitch would be : Putting something new over L2 can be harder for
wide-ranging adoption, and you need to start thinking about possible L2
differences. Being able tto run it over link-local IPv6 is a nice way
to avoid those issues. I dor for example also have a draft in ANIMA
doing exactly the same thing (not for multicast).

Thanks
    Toerless

> 
> thanks
> 
> --- tony
> 

(*) standard disclaimer: Yes, i do complain to authors using IPv4 terms
for equivalent IPv6 functions, but i complain even more to IPv6 for the gratuitous
renaming of perfect names in IPv6.


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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Answer 10-19 marked as [XJR10] to [XJR19] //RE: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt
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Hi Toerless,



Please find below my answer 10-19 marked as [XJR10] to [XJR19] in blue text=
.



Thanks

Jingrong





> 3.2.  Multicast and Unicast Destination Address

>    BIER is generally a hop-by-hop and one-to-many architecture, and thus

>    the IPv6 Destination Address (DA) being a Multicast Address is a way

>    one may think of as an approach for both the two paradigms in BIERv6

>    encapsulation.



I think a better way to explain:

If an IPv6 (or IPv4) multicast group destination address is used as a

hop-by-hop forwarding key, then this requires hop-by-hop per-group forwardi=
ng state,

therefore, just because BIER is like IP multicast a (multi-)point-to-multip=
oint service,

it can not use IP multicast IP multicast group destination addresses. Inste=
ad

it requires per-hop unicast destination address forwarding.

[XJR10] I am not sure about the said "per-group forwarding state" above.

The early revision of this draft proposed to use one-group (for example, FF=
05::AB37) for all BIER packets.

A packet is like this: {IPv6 Hdr(SA=3DBFIR, DA=3Dff05::ab37), Dest-Option-H=
eader(BIER), C-mcast-pkt(IPv4/IPv6/Ethernet)}.

There is only one MFIB entry added in every BFR: (*, ff05::ab37), and the e=
ntry is to tell the data-plane to do a further lookup of Dest-Option-Header=
(BIER) !

The forwarding plane receives a packet, classifier it as an IPv6 multicast =
packet, lookup MFIB entry, and assume some BIER specific action ----similar=
 as using End.BIER unicast address ---- and then lookup the assumed BIER he=
ader in the extension header.

Please let me know if this explanation is clear to you.





>    However using a unicast address has the following benefits:

>    1.  Tunneling a BIERv6 packet over a non-BIER capable router.

>    2.  Fast rerouting a BIERv6 packet using a unicast by-pass tunnel.

Maybe more general "Using unicast FRR adjacencies to next-hop BFR".

[XJR11] Editorial suggestion noted.



>    3.  Forwarding a BIERv6 packet to one of the many BFR neighbors

>        connected on a LAN.



Well. AFAIK, all the BIER solutions as well as mLDP/RSVP-TE have rather the=
 downside that they must create multiple copies across the same LAN as they=
 have neighbors to send to, so this is not only a benefit. (Maybe mLDP does=
 now standardize native link-local multicast with upstream assigned labels =
to leverage L2 multicast, not sure).

[XJR12] My understanding is that, BIER-MPLS and BIER-ETH will both use unic=
ast destination address and will not create multiple copies across the same=
 LAN.



>    4.  Connecting BIER domains, for example Data Center domains, in an

>        overlay manner.



Given the management considerations for the BIER addressing space, this is

a bit like saying the telephone allows people in different countries to

talk with each other. Aka: Higher layer problems non-withstanding.

[XJR13] the said "Data center domains" is managed by a single operator.

The Peering multicast case in <draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain> may be he=
lpful to understand this.

Need a reference to that case and that draft here ?



IMHO, no need to create contention around point 3 and 4, its just a reqiure=
ments

and it comes with undeniable benefits 1. and 2.

[XJR14] Given the above explanation, I think point 3 and point 4 are really=
 different thing IMO (see above also). Your thoughts ?



>    Some of the above functions are assumed very basic requirements and

>    part of BIER architecture as described in [RFC8279].  This document

>    uses unicast address for both one-hop replication and multi-hop

>    replication.



Not sure if one-hop replication and multi-hop replication are well predefin=
ed terms

maybe better "BIER replication to subnet adjacent BFR and BIER replication =
to remote BFR".

[XJR15] Editorial suggestion noted.





>    The unicast address used in BIERv6 packet targeting a BFR SHOULD be

>    advertised as part of the BIER IPv6 Encapsulation.  When a BFR

>    advertises the BIER information with BIERv6 encapsulation capability,

>    an IPv6 unicast address of this BFR MUST be selected specifically for

>    BIERv6 packet forwarding.  Locally this "BIER Specific" IPv6 address

>    is initialized in FIB with a flag of "BIER specific handling",

>    represented as End.BIER function.



You should start explaining here, before you use the SR terminology (foo.ba=
r),

that the semantic of the encapsulation addresses is explained in SR termino=
logy

becuase it is desired for BIERv6 to be used inside an SRv6 network and

share its terminology. Right now you do it after using all the SR terminolo=
gy

and pseudo code, which may ten confuse non-SRv6 aware readers.

[XJR16] Except the wording and terminology above, do you think it a heavy d=
ependency of BIERv6 on any SRv6 ?

In my understanding, the SRv6 (at least used here in the document) is only =
a thin layer over IPv6, which includes only the paradigm of "initializing a=
n FIB entry for a 128-bit IPv6 address" to guide the data-plane process.

Would you like to propose some text here ?



>    The following is an example pseudo-code of the End.BIER function:

>

>      1. IF NH =3D 60 and HopLimit > 0                               ;;Ref=
1

>      2.   IF (OptType1 =3D BIER) and (OptLength1 =3D HdrExtLen*8 + 4) ;;R=
ef2

>      3.     Lookup the BIER Header inside the BIER option TLV.

>      4.     Forward via the matched entry.

>      5.   ELSE                                                    ;;Ref3

>      6.     Drop the packet and end the process.

>      7. ELSE IF NH=3DICMPv6 or (NH=3D60 and Dest_NH=3DICMPv6)           ;=
;Ref4

>      8.   Send to CPU.

>      9. ELSE                                                      ;;Ref5

>     10.   Drop the packet.



I didn't try yet to understand all this text, and so might other non-SR kno=
wledgable

readers, so i recommend to add a summary at the end that tries to explain n=
on-SR

terms what specifically this example was doing.

[XJR17] Thanks for the comment. We will try, and highly appreciate if you o=
r anyone could provide some text. Thanks in advance!



> 3.3.  BIERv6 Packet Format

>

>    examples in other RFCs.  [RFC6275] introduces how the order should be

>    when other extension headers carries along with Home address option

>    in a destination options header.  Similar to this example, this

>    document requires the Destination Options Header carrying the BIER

>    option MUST be placed as follows:

>    o  After the routing header, if that header is present

>    o  Before the Fragment Header, if that header is present

>    o  Before the AH Header or ESP Header, if either one of those headers

>       is present

>    Source Address field in the IPv6 header MUST be a routable IPv6

>    unicast address of the BFIR in any case.



Is it permitted by RFC8200 to lie about the source address when you

are a node operating on a destination option ? I don't know because

i am not an ordained priest of the church of RFC8200. I understand

you are allowed to keep the source address unchanged (and declare that

not to be a lie) when you rewrite the destination address as part of

being addressed by a routing header option, but i thought even in SRv6

when you do something like a binding-SID you would have to rewrite the

source address.



[XJR18] You understanding is correct - the draft proposes to keep the sourc=
e address unchanged and rewrite the destination address as well as the DOH =
option data (BitString/TTL/etc) according to the DOH instead of a routing h=
eader, when the DA of packet is the node's IPv6 address.

We've thought and checked this carefully and found no harm for anything, an=
d found no confliction with current IPv6 spec 8200 or so on.



We assume it is a situation that is beyond of the foresight of RFC8200 whic=
h is actually designed 25 years ago.

Just in case we are encountering a completely new requirements and situatio=
ns ----

(1) The problem that traditional IP-multicast packet with multicast address=
 are facing is highly recognized, and BIER is the latest and focusing inter=
est.

(2) Use of multicast address as BIERv6 destination address had already cons=
idered and given up for reasons explained in section 3.2 of this document p=
er the discussions in BIER discussions.

(3) Many network operators are moving to Native IPv6 for their new services=
 or future architecture, with things of incremental-deployment, ease of mai=
ntaining as their outstanding concerns.



I think if the BIER WG accept such requirements and the situations, we can =
have more discussions focusing on the tech aspects ---- the benefit, the co=
st, the impact to IPv6, the alternatives, rather than individual's feelings=
 that is pending.

Make sense ?



>    BFIR encodes the Non-MPLS BIER header in the above mentioned

>    encapsulation format and forwards the BIERv6 packet to the nexthop

>    BFR following the local BIFT table.



LCD Display ;-)

(Table is the last word in BIFT, no need to replicate).

[XJR19] Editorial suggestion noted.





-----Original Message-----
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:24 PM
To: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt



Comments on subject document inline. Thanks a lot for the work.



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Toerless,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please find below my answer =
10-19 <span style=3D"color:blue">
marked as [XJR10] to [XJR19] in blue text</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; 3.2.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"> Multicast and Unicast Destination Address<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> BIER is generally a hop-by-hop and one-to-many archit=
ecture, and thus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> the IPv6 Destination Address (DA) being a Multicast A=
ddress is a way<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> one may think of as an approach for both the two para=
digms in BIERv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> encapsulation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think a better way to expl=
ain:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If an IPv6 (or IPv4) multica=
st group destination address is used as a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">hop-by-hop forwarding key, t=
hen this requires hop-by-hop per-group forwarding state,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">therefore, just because BIER=
 is like IP multicast a (multi-)point-to-multipoint service,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">it can not use IP multicast =
IP multicast group destination addresses. Instead<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">it requires per-hop unicast =
destination address forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR10]=
 I am not sure about the said
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">per-group=
 forwarding state</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"colo=
r:blue">
 above. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The ear=
ly revision of this draft proposed to use one-group (for example, FF05::AB3=
7) for all BIER packets.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">A packe=
t is like this: {IPv6 Hdr(SA=3DBFIR, DA=3Dff05::ab37), Dest-Option-Header(B=
IER), C-mcast-pkt(IPv4/IPv6/Ethernet)}.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">There i=
s only one MFIB entry added in every BFR: (*, ff05::ab37), and the entry is=
 to tell the data-plane to do a further lookup of Dest-Option-Header(BIER) =
!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The for=
warding plane receives a packet, classifier it as an IPv6 multicast packet,=
 lookup MFIB entry, and assume some BIER specific action ----similar as usi=
ng End.BIER unicast address ---- and then
 lookup the assumed BIER header in the extension header.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Please =
let me know if this explanation is clear to you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> However using a unicast address has the following ben=
efits:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> 1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Tunneling a BIERv=
6 packet over a
 non-BIER capable router.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> 2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Fast rerouting a =
BIERv6 packet using
 a unicast by-pass tunnel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Maybe more general &quot;Usi=
ng unicast FRR adjacencies to next-hop BFR&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR11]=
 Editorial suggestion noted.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> 3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Forwarding a BIER=
v6 packet to one
 of the many BFR neighbors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> connected on a LAN.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well. AFAIK, all the BIER so=
lutions as well as mLDP/RSVP-TE have rather the downside that they must cre=
ate multiple copies across the same LAN as they have neighbors to send to, =
so this is not only a benefit. (Maybe
 mLDP does now standardize native link-local multicast with upstream assign=
ed labels to leverage L2 multicast, not sure).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR12]=
 My understanding is that, BIER-MPLS and BIER-ETH will both use unicast des=
tination address and will not create multiple copies across the same LAN.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> 4.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&q=
uot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Connecting BIER d=
omains, for example
 Data Center domains, in an<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> overlay manner.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Given the management conside=
rations for the BIER addressing space, this is<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">a bit like saying the teleph=
one allows people in different countries to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">talk with each other. Aka: H=
igher layer problems non-withstanding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR13]=
 the said </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blu=
e">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Data center doma=
ins</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;=
;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"> is ma=
naged
 by a single operator. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The Pee=
ring multicast case in &lt;draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain&gt; may be hel=
pful to understand this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Need a =
reference to that case and that draft here ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">IMHO, no need to create cont=
ention around point 3 and 4, its just a reqiurements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">and it comes with undeniable=
 benefits 1. and 2.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR14]=
 Given the above explanation, I think point 3 and point 4 are really differ=
ent thing IMO (see above also). Your thoughts ?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> Some of the above functions are assumed very basic re=
quirements and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> part of BIER architecture as described in [RFC8279].<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&n=
bsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 This document<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> uses unicast address for both one-hop replication and=
 multi-hop<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> replication.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Not sure if one-hop replicat=
ion and multi-hop replication are well predefined terms<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">maybe better &quot;BIER repl=
ication to subnet adjacent BFR and BIER replication to remote BFR&quot;.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR15]=
 Editorial suggestion noted.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> The unicast address used in BIERv6 packet targeting a=
 BFR SHOULD be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> advertised as part of the BIER IPv6 Encapsulation.</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbs=
p;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 When a BFR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> advertises the BIER information with BIERv6 encapsula=
tion capability,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> an IPv6 unicast address of this BFR MUST be selected =
specifically for<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> BIERv6 packet forwarding.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"> Locally this
 &quot;BIER Specific&quot; IPv6 address<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> is initialized in FIB with a flag of &quot;BIER speci=
fic handling&quot;,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> represented as End.BIER function.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">You should start explaining =
here, before you use the SR terminology (foo.bar),<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">that the semantic of the enc=
apsulation addresses is explained in SR terminology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">becuase it is desired for BI=
ERv6 to be used inside an SRv6 network and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">share its terminology. Right=
 now you do it after using all the SR terminology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">and pseudo code, which may t=
en confuse non-SRv6 aware readers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR16]=
 Except the wording and terminology above, do you think it a heavy dependen=
cy of BIERv6 on any SRv6 ?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">In my u=
nderstanding, the SRv6 (at least used here in the document) is only a thin =
layer over IPv6, which includes only the paradigm of
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">initializ=
ing an FIB entry for a 128-bit IPv6 address</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">
 to guide the data-plane process.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Would y=
ou like to propose some text here ?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> The following is an example pseudo-code of the End.BI=
ER function:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 1. IF NH =3D 60 and HopLimit &gt; 0</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 ;;Ref1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
 IF (OptType1 =3D BIER) and (OptLength1
 =3D HdrExtLen*8 &#43; 4) ;;Ref2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> Lookup the BIER Header inside
 the BIER option TLV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 4.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> Forward via the matched entry.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 5.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
 ELSE</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 ;;Ref3<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 6.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> Drop the packet and end the
 process.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 7. ELSE IF NH=3DICMPv6 or (NH=3D60 and De=
st_NH=3DICMPv6)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 ;;Ref4<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 8.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
 Send to CPU.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 9. ELSE</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US">
 ;;Ref5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> 10.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Drop=
 the packet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I didn't try yet to understa=
nd all this text, and so might other non-SR knowledgable<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">readers, so i recommend to a=
dd a summary at the end that tries to explain non-SR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">terms what specifically this=
 example was doing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR17]=
 Thanks for the comment. We will try, and highly appreciate if you or anyon=
e could provide some text. Thanks in advance!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; 3.3.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"> BIERv6 Packet Format<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> examples in other RFCs.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"> [RFC6275] introduces
 how the order should be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> when other extension headers carries along with Home =
address option<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> in a destination options header.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> Similar
 to this example, this<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> document requires the Destination Options Header carr=
ying the BIER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> option MUST be placed as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> o</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&qu=
ot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> After the routing =
header, if that
 header is present<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> o</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&qu=
ot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Before the Fragmen=
t Header, if that
 header is present<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> o</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&qu=
ot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Before the AH Head=
er or ESP Header,
 if either one of those headers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> is present<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> Source Address field in the IPv6 header MUST be a rou=
table IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> unicast address of the BFIR in any case.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Is it permitted by RFC8200 t=
o lie about the source address when you<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">are a node operating on a de=
stination option ? I don't know because<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">i am not an ordained priest =
of the church of RFC8200. I understand<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">you are allowed to keep the =
source address unchanged (and declare that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">not to be a lie) when you re=
write the destination address as part of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">being addressed by a routing=
 header option, but i thought even in SRv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">when you do something like a=
 binding-SID you would have to rewrite the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">source address. <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR18]=
 You understanding is correct
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8211;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"> the draf=
t proposes to keep the source address unchanged and rewrite the destination=
 address as well as the DOH option data (BitString/TTL/etc)
 according to the DOH instead of a routing header, when the DA of packet is=
 the node</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New=
&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">=
s IPv6 address.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">We</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">ve thought and=
 checked this carefully and found no harm for anything, and found
 no confliction with current IPv6 spec 8200 or so on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">We assu=
me it is a situation that is beyond of the foresight of RFC8200 which is ac=
tually designed 25 years ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Just in=
 case we are encountering a completely new requirements and situations ----=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(1) The=
 problem that traditional IP-multicast packet with multicast address are fa=
cing is highly recognized, and BIER is the latest and focusing interest.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(2) Use=
 of multicast address as BIERv6 destination address had already considered =
and given up for reasons explained in section 3.2 of this document per the =
discussions in BIER discussions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(3) Man=
y network operators are moving to Native IPv6 for their new services or fut=
ure architecture, with things of incremental-deployment, ease of maintainin=
g as their outstanding concerns.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">I think=
 if the BIER WG accept such requirements and the situations, we can have mo=
re discussions focusing on the tech aspects ---- the benefit, the cost, the=
 impact to IPv6, the alternatives, rather
 than individual</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color=
:blue">s feelings that is pending.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Make se=
nse ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> BFIR encodes the Non-MPLS BIER header in the above me=
ntioned<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> encapsulation format and forwards the BIERv6 packet t=
o the nexthop<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> BFR following the local BIFT table.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">LCD Display ;-)<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">(Table is the last word in B=
IFT, no need to replicate).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR19]=
 Editorial suggestion noted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert<br>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:24 PM<br>
To: bier@ietf.org<br>
Subject: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Comments on subject document=
 inline. Thanks a lot for the work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Answer 20 to 30 marked as [XJR20] to [XJR30] //RE: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt
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Hi Toerless,



Please find below my answer 20-30 (for section 4 of this draft) marked as [=
XJR20] to [XJR30] in blue text.



Thanks

Jingrong





> 4.  BIERv6 Packet Processing

>    There is no BIER-specific processing,



? Unclear.

[XJR20] Editorial suggestion noted. Please allow me find some better text h=
ere.



>    and all the 8 steps in section

>    6.5 of RFC8279 apply to BIERv6 packet processing.  However, there are

>    some IPv6-specific processing procedures due to the base and general

>    procedures of IPv6.

>

>    On the overlay layer, when a multicast packet enters the BIER domain

>    in a Non-MPLS IPv6 network, the Ingress BFR (BFIR) encapsulates the

>    multicast packet with a BIERv6 Header, transforming it to a BIERv6



Encapsulates instead of transform IMHO.

[XJR21] Editorial suggestion noted.



>    packet.  The BIERv6 header includes an IPv6 header and IPv6

>    Destination Options Header within a standard Non-MPLS BIER header.

>    Source Address field in the IPv6 header MUST be set to a routable

>    IPv6 unicast address of the BFIR.  Destination Address field in the

>    IPv6 header is set to the End.BIER address of the next-hop BFR the

>    BIERv6 packet replicating to, no matter next-hop BFR is directly

>    connected (one-hop) or not directly connected (multi-hop).



I think it would be good to provide in a fitting place some good

justification/examples why especially BFR not acting as BFER  would

benefit from using any other addresses than the BIER prefix of the BFR.

[XJR22] Combining the BFR-prefix with the End.BIER address is the previous =
(before rev-04) proposal of this draft.

We change this for some reasons:

(1) Plan and allocate End.BIER of "all nodes" of a network from a block, so=
 the ACL can be easily deployed on each node, as explained in chapter 5.

(2) Decouple the two for better management: network administrator may be us=
ed to configure a BFR-prefix from the loopback address that is used for BGP=
 peer/Tunnel Endpoint, while End.BIER block is a different thing need care =
for secure deployment.



>    It is a local behavior to handle the combination of extension

>    headers, options and the BIER option(s) in destination options header

>    when a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication is got by the preceding

>    FIB lookup.  Early deployment of BIERv6 may require there is only one

>    BIER option TLV in the destination options header followed the IPv6

>    header.  How other extension headers or more BIER option TLVs in a

>    BIERv6 packet is handled is outside the scope of this document.



Typically AFAIK, the handling of option headers is not tied to a

avarying semantic of the destination address. I do understand that

IPv6 SIDs have semantic tied to them, but is there an example how such

a semantic would impact the handling of a particular destination option ?

If there is, then it would be good to cite such an SRv6 function as another

example of the desired behavior in this draft.

[XJR23] I agree with you that IPv6 option headers is not tied to a special =
destination address in IPv6 spec.

But that does not fit the "forwarding-plane-realities" for the past 25 year=
s(see below pdf you co-authoring).

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-wgtlgo-forwar=
ding-plane-realities

"Processing that spans multiple headers increases complexity and eliminates=
 opportunities for optimizations"

"don't assume complete processing flexibility."

I think the above text are saying the IPv6-spec next-header chain and optio=
n TLV chain that "not tied" to a specific destination address.

And that's why the preceding indication of "IPv6 DA" lookup is useful.

Once the "IPv6 DA" lookup of specific destination address determine that it=
 is a special address (BIER-only address), then only the least thing is nec=
essary, and "unexpected conditions" are all shortcut handled (see below XJR=
26 and XJR27).



I for once think that the idea of being able to modify the semantic

of option headers based on the address is potentially useful (would need

to figure out better examples), but:

[XJR24] I agree. Why not exploring ;-)



If there is a relevant customer community for BIERv6 that is not interested

in SRv6, it would be better if the base functionality would not rely

on SRv6 specific concepts, but if these SRv6/SID related options would be

part of a specific section in this document like "BIERv6 with SIDs" or so.

That way bot the IPv6, no SRv6 and IPv6+SRv6 customers would easier be

made happy.

[XJR25] I don't see how the "SRv6 specific concepts" affect the independenc=
y of BIERv6.

As stated before, SRv6 concept is only a thin layer over IPv6 to me.

It's all about forwarding-plane realities in my understanding!

Your thoughts?





>    A packet having a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication but not having

>    a BIER option is supposed to be a wrong packet or an ICMPv6 packet,

Explain the "ICMPv6 packet" ?

[XJR26] This is an exception-handling case. The "special handling indicatio=
n" is got but the unexpected condition is encountered.

A packet having a 'BIER specific handling' but doesn't get the expected thi=
ng, then the 'exception handling' is triggered.

The above is such "exception handling", which can be discarding a packet, o=
r checking further if it is ICMPv6 packet.





>    A packet not having a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication but having

>    a BIER option SHOULD be processed normally as unicast forwarding

>    procedures, which may be a behavior of drop, or send to CPU, or other

>    behaviors in existing implementations.



SHOULD be processed normally as unicast forwarding procedures AFTER

BIER replication ? E.g.: not quite sure which case yo're referring to here.

[XJR27] This is an exception-handling case. The "special handling indicatio=
n" is got but the unexpected condition is encountered.

Seem as above.



>    The Destination Address field in the IPv6 Header MUST change to the

>    nexthop BFR's End.BIER Unicast address in BIERv6.

>

>    The Hop Limit field of IPv6 header MUST decrease by 1 when sending

>    packets to a BFR neighbor, while the TTL in the BIER header MUST be

>    unchanged on a Non-BIER router, or decrease by 1 on a BFR.



A non-BIER router would not operate on the BIER header or be addressed

by a BIERv6 packet, so the middle part should be deleted, as its confusing.

[XJR28] Please see explanation of [XJR3].



>    The BitString in the BIER header in the Destination Options Header

>    may change when sending packets to a neighbor.  Such change of

>    BitString MUST be aligned with the procedure defined in RFC8279.

>    Because of the requirement to change the content of the option when

>    forwarding BIERv6 packet, the BIER option type should have chg flag 1

>    per section 4.2 of RFC8200.



Maybe reorder these paragraphs in the order they are relevant, whereas

the BIER processing would preceed the unicast sending of copies.

[XJR29] Correct, the BIER processing would precede the sending of copies.



>    The procedures applies normally if a bit corresponding to the self

>    bfr-id is set in the bit-string field of the Non-MPLS BIER header of

>    the BIERv6 packet.  The node is considered to be an Egress BFR (BFER)

>    in this case.  he BFER removes the BIERv6 header, including the IPv6

>    header and the Destination Options header, and copies the packet to

>    the multicast flow overlay.  The egress VRF of a packet may be

>    determined by a further lookup on the IPv6 source address instead of

>    the upstream-assigned MPLS Label as described in [RFC8556].



Maybe you want to structure under subsections "BFIR", "BFR" and "BFER" beha=
vior.

In the BFER behavior it should be said that the BFER behavior is in

addition to the unchanged BFER behavior and is based on creating another

copy of the packet based on the BFER bit set, and that copy is locally

consumed as follow..

[XJR30] Editorial suggestion noted.

End of answer so far.



Running out of time for now, hopefully can catch up with rest later.

Very good for the document to have what looks on browsing like a

comprehensive set of environmental sections below!





Thanks a lot for the documt

    Toerless





-----Original Message-----
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:24 PM
To: bier@ietf.org
Subject: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt



Comments on subject document inline. Thanks a lot for the work.



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fy-trim:punctuation">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Toerless,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please find below my answer =
20-30 (for section 4 of this draft)
<span style=3D"color:blue">marked as [XJR20] to [XJR30] in blue text</span>=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; 4.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> BIERv6 Packet Processing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> There is no BIER-specific processing,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">? Unclear.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR20]=
 Editorial suggestion noted. Please allow me find some better text here.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> and all the 8 steps in section<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> 6.5 of RFC8279 apply to BIERv6 packet processing.</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp=
;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 However, there are<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> some IPv6-specific processing procedures due to the b=
ase and general<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> procedures of IPv6.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> On the overlay layer, when a multicast packet enters =
the BIER domain<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> in a Non-MPLS IPv6 network, the Ingress BFR (BFIR) en=
capsulates the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> multicast packet with a BIERv6 Header, transforming i=
t to a BIERv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Encapsulates instead of tran=
sform IMHO.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR21]=
 Editorial suggestion noted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> packet.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> The BIERv6 h=
eader includes an
 IPv6 header and IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Destination Options Header within a standa=
rd Non-MPLS BIER header.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> Source Address field in the IPv6 header MUST be set t=
o a routable<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> IPv6 unicast address of the BFIR.</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"> Destination
 Address field in the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> IPv6 header is set to the End.BIER address of the nex=
t-hop BFR the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> BIERv6 packet replicating to, no matter next-hop BFR =
is directly<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> connected (one-hop) or not directly connected (multi-=
hop).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I think it would be good to =
provide in a fitting place some good<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">justification/examples why e=
specially BFR not acting as BFER</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> would<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">benefit from using any other=
 addresses than the BIER prefix of the BFR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR22]=
 Combining the BFR-prefix with the End.BIER address is the previous (before=
 rev-04) proposal of this draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">We chan=
ge this for some reasons:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(1) Pla=
n and allocate End.BIER of
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">all nodes=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"> of a net=
work
 from a block, so the ACL can be easily deployed on each node, as explained=
 in chapter 5.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">(2) Dec=
ouple the two for better management: network administrator may be used to c=
onfigure a BFR-prefix from the loopback address that is used for BGP peer/T=
unnel Endpoint, while End.BIER block is
 a different thing need care for secure deployment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> It is a local behavior to handle the combination of e=
xtension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> headers, options and the BIER option(s) in destinatio=
n options header<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> when a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication is got by =
the preceding<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> FIB lookup.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Early de=
ployment of BIERv6
 may require there is only one<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> BIER option TLV in the destination options header fol=
lowed the IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> header.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> How other ex=
tension headers
 or more BIER option TLVs in a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> BIERv6 packet is handled is outside the scope of this=
 document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Typically AFAIK, the handlin=
g of option headers is not tied to a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">avarying semantic of the des=
tination address. I do understand that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">IPv6 SIDs have semantic tied=
 to them, but is there an example how such<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">a semantic would impact the =
handling of a particular destination option ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If there is, then it would b=
e good to cite such an SRv6 function as another<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">example of the desired behav=
ior in this draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR23]=
 I agree with you that IPv6 option headers is not tied to a special destina=
tion address in IPv6 spec.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">But tha=
t does not fit the
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">forwardin=
g-plane-realities</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"colo=
r:blue">
 for the past 25 years(see below pdf you co-authoring).<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-wgtlgo-fo=
rwarding-plane-realities"><span style=3D"color:blue">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-wgtlgo-forwarding-plane-realities</=
span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:blue">Processing that spans multiple headers increases complexity and e=
liminates opportunities for optimizations</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:blue">don</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bl=
ue">t assume
 complete processing flexibility.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">I think=
 the above text are saying the IPv6-spec next-header chain and option TLV c=
hain that
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">not tied<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;col=
or:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"> to a spec=
ific
 destination address.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">And tha=
t</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">s why th=
e preceding indication of
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">IPv6 DA</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;colo=
r:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"> lookup is =
useful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Once th=
e </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;=
color:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">IPv6 DA=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">
 lookup of specific destination address determine that it is a special addr=
ess (BIER-only address), then only the least thing is necessary, and
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">unexpecte=
d conditions</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier =
New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blu=
e"> are
 all shortcut handled (see below XJR26 and XJR27).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I for once think that the id=
ea of being able to modify the semantic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">of option headers based on t=
he address is potentially useful (would need<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">to figure out better example=
s), but:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR24]=
 I agree. Why not exploring ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If there is a relevant custo=
mer community for BIERv6 that is not interested<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">in SRv6, it would be better =
if the base functionality would not rely<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">on SRv6 specific concepts, b=
ut if these SRv6/SID related options would be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">part of a specific section i=
n this document like &quot;BIERv6 with SIDs&quot; or so.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">That way bot the IPv6, no SR=
v6 and IPv6&#43;SRv6 customers would easier be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">made happy.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR25]=
 I don</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">t s=
ee how the
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">SRv6 spec=
ific concepts</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bl=
ue">
 affect the independency of BIERv6.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">As stat=
ed before, SRv6 concept is only a thin layer over IPv6 to me.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">It</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">s all about fo=
rwarding-plane realities in my understanding!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Your th=
oughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> A packet having a 'BIER Specific Handling' indication=
 but not having<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> a BIER option is supposed to be a wrong packet or an =
ICMPv6 packet,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Explain the &quot;ICMPv6 pac=
ket&quot; ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR26]=
 This is an exception-handling case. The
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">special h=
andling indication</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"col=
or:blue">
 is got but the unexpected condition is encountered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">A packe=
t having a </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blu=
e">&#8216;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">BIER specific ha=
ndling</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"> bu=
t doesn</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&q=
uot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">t
 get the expected thing, then the </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8216;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"color:blue">exception handling</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">
 is triggered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The abo=
ve is such </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blu=
e">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">exception handli=
ng</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;=
color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">, which=
 can
 be discarding a packet, or checking further if it is ICMPv6 packet.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> A packet not having a 'BIER Specific Handling' indica=
tion but having<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> a BIER option SHOULD be processed normally as unicast=
 forwarding<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> procedures, which may be a behavior of drop, or send =
to CPU, or other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> behaviors in existing implementations.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SHOULD be processed normally=
 as unicast forwarding procedures AFTER<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER replication ? E.g.: not=
 quite sure which case yo're referring to here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR27]=
 This is an exception-handling case. The
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;co=
lor:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">special h=
andling indication</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"col=
or:blue">
 is got but the unexpected condition is encountered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Seem as=
 above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> The Destination Address field in the IPv6 Header MUST=
 change to the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> nexthop BFR's End.BIER Unicast address in BIERv6.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> The Hop Limit field of IPv6 header MUST decrease by 1=
 when sending<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> packets to a BFR neighbor, while the TTL in the BIER =
header MUST be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> unchanged on a Non-BIER router, or decrease by 1 on a=
 BFR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">A non-BIER router would not =
operate on the BIER header or be addressed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">by a BIERv6 packet, so the m=
iddle part should be deleted, as its confusing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR28]=
 Please see explanation of [XJR3].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> The BitString in the BIER header in the Destination O=
ptions Header<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> may change when sending packets to a neighbor.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
 Such change of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> BitString MUST be aligned with the procedure defined =
in RFC8279.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> Because of the requirement to change the content of t=
he option when<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> forwarding BIERv6 packet, the BIER option type should=
 have chg flag 1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> per section 4.2 of RFC8200.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Maybe reorder these paragrap=
hs in the order they are relevant, whereas<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">the BIER processing would pr=
eceed the unicast sending of copies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR29]=
 Correct, the BIER processing would precede the sending of copies.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> The procedures applies normally if a bit correspondin=
g to the self<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> bfr-id is set in the bit-string field of the Non-MPLS=
 BIER header of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> the BIERv6 packet.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
 The node is considered
 to be an Egress BFR (BFER)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> in this case.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> he BFE=
R removes the BIERv6
 header, including the IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> header and the Destination Options header, and copies=
 the packet to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> the multicast flow overlay.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> The egress
 VRF of a packet may be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> determined by a further lookup on the IPv6 source add=
ress instead of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"> the upstream-assigned MPLS Label as described in [RFC=
8556].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Maybe you want to structure =
under subsections &quot;BFIR&quot;, &quot;BFR&quot; and &quot;BFER&quot; be=
havior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In the BFER behavior it shou=
ld be said that the BFER behavior is in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">addition to the unchanged BF=
ER behavior and is based on creating another<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">copy of the packet based on =
the BFER bit set, and that copy is locally<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">consumed as follow..<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[XJR30]=
 Editorial suggestion noted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">End of =
answer so far.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Running out of time for now,=
 hopefully can catch up with rest later.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Very good for the document t=
o have what looks on browsing like a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">comprehensive set of environ=
mental sections below!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks a lot for the documt<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Toerless<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert<br>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:24 PM<br>
To: bier@ietf.org<br>
Subject: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-05.txt</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Comments on subject document=
 inline. Thanks a lot for the work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 00:15:13 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
Cc: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
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Jingrong, *:

Some higher level Q)uestions P)oints hopefully we can circle in on the probably
most important issues for the details before getting back to my
nitpicking on details.

Q1: Why is https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn-02 expired
and not even referenced in draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation ?

If i wanted to understand why the encap does the BFIR-to-BFER IPv6
encap with option header, then the reason really is to enable 'MVPN'
over BIER, right ? So one would like to know where that is specified,
which seems to be that mvpn draft of yours, right ? Aka: should be
refreshed and referenced ?

Q2: I am totally not on top of BESS, but it seems thats where the SRv6
version of e.g.: MVPN (over MPLS) is defined ? And those solutoins are
called 'overlay' because there are on top of IPv6, but functionally its
mostly equialent to what we've done over MPLS forever without calling
it overlay, right ? (sorry, just trying to unconfuse myself, not really
about your draft, but more the question what makes a soution 'overlay',
and it seems just : replace MPLS with IPv6 and stuff running on top of
it must be named overlay ?).

P3: The ability of the choosen header to pass 6man RFC8200 police
seems quite important. See how long SRH draft was hold up in the discuss.
I am not aware whether there is evidence that any other destination
option today does what the routing header, e.g.: RFC6554/SRH are
doing, keeping the source address while changing the dest address.

If they do not like destination option header, it could become a
routing header. If anyone in 6man has rfc8200 concerns, its always
possible to make this doc an update to rfc8200, which shouldn't be
such a blood bath as for SRv6 given how its about effectively multicast
packets, and there was very little multicast expertise involved
in writing these IPv6 documents.

Aka: present/discuss at 6man WG IMHO if not already done.

P4: Wrt. SRv6: As soon as you embody SRv6 SID semantic into IPv6 addresses, 
i think you are doing SRv6 architecture. Only a minority (40% by a cisco
estimate) of SRv6 use cases ever need SRH, the rest is just
SID semantics and non-LDP routing for simple IPv6 packets.  

P5: Wrt. SIDs: I was mostly worried about manual or SDN controller assignment of the
SIDs (like source addresses in BIERv6), but it seems the appropriate
BGP signaling mechanisms in BESS documents similar to those done in the
past for MVPN with MPLS (in other WGs) would allow for automatic allocation and
signaling. I think some sentences to the point that this is
designed to be easily autoconfiguring the addresses it needs or the
like would help to counter such concerns as i had first reading it.

P6: The main concern by the WG seems to be how simple the lookup can
be made. We already discussed this our last email round:
Ability to do a FIB lookup (because its a BIER SID) that results
in an lookup entry of an unchanged BIER header doing unchanged
BIER operations, followed just by a different adjacency than for
MPLS. In MPLS you would swap the destination label (but keep the),
here you would swap the destination IPv6 address.

Have you tried building a P4 reference implementation ?
Typically, when something is shown to be implementable in P4,
then its harder for higher end NPU vendors to argue their NPU
can not do this efficiently ;-)

Overall, i think it might help to think about summarizing the key
parts of relevance to the WG to decide somewhere up front in the doc:

- Support for L3VPN and 'Internet' multicast services via IPv6 with BIER.
- Single FIB lookup to unchanged BIER header and processing
- Swap MPLS label replaced by swap IPv6 destination addess
- Leverages simple subset of SRv6 architecture for SID addressing,
- No SRH used.

Cheers
    Toerless


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From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
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Hi Toerless,



Thanks a lot for the higher level questions and points!

Please see below inline my answer [A1] to [A7].

Cc'ed the chairs and AD since I think it is related ---- see answer 3 [A3] =
to point 3.



Best regards,

Jingrong



-----Original Message-----
From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de]
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2020 7:15 AM
To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation



Jingrong, *:



Some higher level Q)uestions P)oints hopefully we can circle in on the prob=
ably most important issues for the details before getting back to my nitpic=
king on details.



Q1: Why is https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn-02 expired =
and not even referenced in draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation ?



If i wanted to understand why the encap does the BFIR-to-BFER IPv6 encap wi=
th option header, then the reason really is to enable 'MVPN'

over BIER, right ? So one would like to know where that is specified, which=
 seems to be that mvpn draft of yours, right ? Aka: should be refreshed and=
 referenced ?

[A1]: The reason it's not referenced is that, I think the layering mode of =
BIER-layer and Multicast-overlay-layer is quite clear as is defined in RFC8=
279 section 4.

The BIER-IPv6 is the basis and the BIERv6-MVPN is overlay.

I am not aware of that it could be a confusing.

Maybe an informative reference to the BIERv6-MVPN ?

BTW: the https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn-02 is not exp=
ired.



Q2: I am totally not on top of BESS, but it seems thats where the SRv6 vers=
ion of e.g.: MVPN (over MPLS) is defined ? And those solutoins are called '=
overlay' because there are on top of IPv6, but functionally its mostly equi=
alent to what we've done over MPLS forever without calling it overlay, righ=
t ? (sorry, just trying to unconfuse myself, not really about your draft, b=
ut more the question what makes a soution 'overlay', and it seems just : re=
place MPLS with IPv6 and stuff running on top of it must be named overlay ?=
).

[A2] SRv6 based services(VPN,EVPN,etc) are all defined in <draft-ietf-bess-=
srv6-services> but MVPN is excluded.

The name of overlay seems to me more like coming from NVO3 ---- where the u=
nderlay is IP/IPv6, and overlay means VPN/EVPN/MVPN including the Tenant pa=
cket and Tenant identifier (VNI).

The name of overlay has been common in drafts and RFCS ---- RFC8279 is one =
example, many other BESS drafts also use the name, but no strict definition=
 yet.

I understand the same as you that its mostly equivalent to what have done o=
ver MPLS, with distinct I understand is that the layering of overlay and un=
derlay is not well decoupled, e.g., underlay is driven by overlay like the =
mLDP/RSVP-TE is driven by MVPN to build a tree.

So be relaxed about the concept of overlay and just follow the feeling:

Overlay =3D service (VPN/EVPN IRB/L2VPN/MVPN/etc),

Underlay =3D transport(IP/routing/reachability/LSP/tunnel/etc).





P3: The ability of the choosen header to pass 6man RFC8200 police seems qui=
te important. See how long SRH draft was hold up in the discuss.

I am not aware whether there is evidence that any other destination option =
today does what the routing header, e.g.: RFC6554/SRH are doing, keeping th=
e source address while changing the dest address.



If they do not like destination option header, it could become a routing he=
ader. If anyone in 6man has rfc8200 concerns, its always possible to make t=
his doc an update to rfc8200, which shouldn't be such a blood bath as for S=
Rv6 given how its about effectively multicast packets, and there was very l=
ittle multicast expertise involved in writing these IPv6 documents.



Aka: present/discuss at 6man WG IMHO if not already done.

[A3] I haven't found any other destination option today does what the routi=
ng header either.

If we do not like destination option header, it could become a routing head=
er, or a new extension header could also be proposed, and I have thought ab=
out that too.

It's allowed in RFC8200 to define extension header, or develop Option in DO=
H (recommended by 8200), and I think it's up to us BIER folks to talk about=
 the tech aspects ----use cases, benefits, costs and impacts.



Let me cite some words of 6man chair Ole's view of point here:

"we cannot modify our documents on every occasion someone wants to do somet=
hing".

"It shouldnt' matter if it contravened or not. As long as the proposed solu=
tion was technically sound standing on it's own feet."

"Any specification that changes EH processing must specify how that process=
ing is done, and must be technically sound, in that it is shown not to brea=
k anything (interoperability, PMTUD, end to end security etc)."



BTW: I had once named the draft as draft-xie-6man-bier-encapsulation-00 and=
 post on 6man mailing list but no feedback.

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/8OGREpYjWGAHgSRKLUwE_--qfVU/



Reading the BIER charter text again, I'm not sure the coordination should b=
e initiated by BIER WG after it becomes a WG I-D, or by the individual auth=
ors to request that ?

"7) BIER in IPv6 :  A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be standar=
dized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood applicability."

Maybe it's up to the chairs or AD to give guidance for this situation ?





P4: Wrt. SRv6: As soon as you embody SRv6 SID semantic into IPv6 addresses,=
 i think you are doing SRv6 architecture. Only a minority (40% by a cisco

estimate) of SRv6 use cases ever need SRH, the rest is just SID semantics a=
nd non-LDP routing for simple IPv6 packets.

[A4] Got your point. Much or less the SRv6 ingredients, it's IETF standard-=
track for us to learn from: RFC8402, RFC8754.





P5: Wrt. SIDs: I was mostly worried about manual or SDN controller assignme=
nt of the SIDs (like source addresses in BIERv6), but it seems the appropri=
ate BGP signaling mechanisms in BESS documents similar to those done in the=
 past for MVPN with MPLS (in other WGs) would allow for automatic allocatio=
n and signaling. I think some sentences to the point that this is designed =
to be easily autoconfiguring the addresses it needs or the like would help =
to counter such concerns as i had first reading it.

[A5] Correct. The assignment of the IPv6 addresses (you called SIDs) can be=
 easily automated by SDN.

The source address in BIERv6 only need to be allocated on an Ingress PE of =
MVPN, and advertise to Egress PE of MVPN using BGP-MVPN routes.

The destination address in BIERv6 only need to be allocated from the planne=
d block of IPv6 address.

The standard-track RFC8754 sets up such paradigm, not only for data-plane o=
ptimization (below point P6), but also for security deployment to be easily=
 automated (5.1 of 8754).





P6: The main concern by the WG seems to be how simple the lookup can be mad=
e. We already discussed this our last email round:

Ability to do a FIB lookup (because its a BIER SID) that results in an look=
up entry of an unchanged BIER header doing unchanged BIER operations, follo=
wed just by a different adjacency than for MPLS. In MPLS you would swap the=
 destination label (but keep the), here you would swap the destination IPv6=
 address.



Have you tried building a P4 reference implementation ?

Typically, when something is shown to be implementable in P4, then its hard=
er for higher end NPU vendors to argue their NPU can not do this efficientl=
y ;-)

[A6] I believe it's the simplest paradigm settled by RFC8754. It may need t=
o compare with the alternatives to understand that.

Haven't try P4 yet.





Overall, i think it might help to think about summarizing the key parts of =
relevance to the WG to decide somewhere up front in the doc:



- Support for L3VPN and 'Internet' multicast services via IPv6 with BIER.

- Single FIB lookup to unchanged BIER header and processing

- Swap MPLS label replaced by swap IPv6 destination addess

- Leverages simple subset of SRv6 architecture for SID addressing,

- No SRH used.

[A7] Agreed. That's the key parts of the BIERv6 design in my opinion.





Cheers

    Toerless



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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Toerless,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks a lot for the higher =
level questions and points!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Please see below inline my a=
nswer [A1] to [A7].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Cc</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US">ed the chairs and AD since I think it is related ---- see answer 3 =
[A3] to point 3.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:tte@cs.fau.de] <br>
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2020 7:15 AM<br>
To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) &lt;xiejingrong@huawei.com&gt;<br>
Cc: bier@ietf.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jingrong, *:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Some higher level Q)uestions=
 P)oints hopefully we can circle in on the probably most important issues f=
or the details before getting back to my nitpicking on details.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Q1: Why is <a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn-02">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn-02</span></a> expired and not even referenc=
ed in draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If i wanted to understand wh=
y the encap does the BFIR-to-BFER IPv6 encap with option header, then the r=
eason really is to enable 'MVPN'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">over BIER, right ? So one wo=
uld like to know where that is specified, which seems to be that mvpn draft=
 of yours, right ? Aka: should be refreshed and referenced ?<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[A1]: T=
he reason it</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier =
New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blu=
e">s not referenced is that, I think the layering mode of BIER-layer
 and Multicast-overlay-layer is quite clear as is defined in RFC8279 sectio=
n 4. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The BIE=
R-IPv6 is the basis and the BIERv6-MVPN is overlay.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">I am no=
t aware of that it could be a confusing.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Maybe a=
n informative reference to the BIERv6-MVPN ?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">BTW: th=
e <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn-02">
<span style=3D"color:blue">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xie-bier-ipv6-=
mvpn-02</span></a> is not expired.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Q2: I am totally not on top =
of BESS, but it seems thats where the SRv6 version of e.g.: MVPN (over MPLS=
) is defined ? And those solutoins are called 'overlay' because there are o=
n top of IPv6, but functionally its
 mostly equialent to what we've done over MPLS forever without calling it o=
verlay, right ? (sorry, just trying to unconfuse myself, not really about y=
our draft, but more the question what makes a soution 'overlay', and it see=
ms just : replace MPLS with IPv6
 and stuff running on top of it must be named overlay ?).<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[A2] SR=
v6 based services(VPN,EVPN,etc) are all defined in &lt;draft-ietf-bess-srv6=
-services&gt; but MVPN is excluded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The nam=
e of overlay seems to me more like coming from NVO3 ---- where the underlay=
 is IP/IPv6, and overlay means VPN/EVPN/MVPN including the Tenant packet an=
d Tenant identifier (VNI).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The nam=
e of overlay has been common in drafts and RFCS ---- RFC8279 is one example=
, many other BESS drafts also use the name, but no strict definition yet.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">I under=
stand the same as you that its mostly equivalent to what have done over MPL=
S, with distinct I understand is that the layering of overlay and underlay =
is not well decoupled, e.g., underlay
 is driven by overlay like the mLDP/RSVP-TE is driven by MVPN to build a tr=
ee.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">So be r=
elaxed about the concept of overlay and just follow the feeling:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Overlay=
 =3D service (VPN/EVPN IRB/L2VPN/MVPN/etc),
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Underla=
y =3D transport(IP/routing/reachability/LSP/tunnel/etc).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">P3: The ability of the choos=
en header to pass 6man RFC8200 police seems quite important. See how long S=
RH draft was hold up in the discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I am not aware whether there=
 is evidence that any other destination option today does what the routing =
header, e.g.: RFC6554/SRH are doing, keeping the source address while chang=
ing the dest address.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they do not like destinat=
ion option header, it could become a routing header. If anyone in 6man has =
rfc8200 concerns, its always possible to make this doc an update to rfc8200=
, which shouldn't be such a blood bath
 as for SRv6 given how its about effectively multicast packets, and there w=
as very little multicast expertise involved in writing these IPv6 documents=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Aka: present/discuss at 6man=
 WG IMHO if not already done.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[A3] I =
haven</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">t fo=
und any other destination option today does what the routing header
 either.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">If we d=
o not like destination option header, it could become a routing header, or =
a new extension header could also be proposed, and I have thought about tha=
t too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">It</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:b=
lue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">s allowed in R=
FC8200 to define extension header, or develop Option in DOH (recommended
 by 8200), and I think it</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&=
quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:blue">s up to us BIER folks to talk about the tech aspects ----us=
e cases, benefits, costs and impacts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Let me =
cite some words of 6man chair Ole</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"color:blue">s view of point here:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:blue">we cannot modify our documents on every occasion someone wants to=
 do something</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bl=
ue">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:blue">It shouldnt' matter if it contravened or not. As long as the prop=
osed solution was technically sound standing on it's own feet.</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8=
221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:blue">Any specification that changes EH processing must specify how tha=
t processing is done, and must be technically sound, in that
 it is shown not to break anything (interoperability, PMTUD, end to end sec=
urity etc).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier N=
ew&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">BTW: I =
had once named the draft as draft-xie-6man-bier-encapsulation-00 and post o=
n 6man mailing list but no feedback.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><a href=
=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/8OGREpYjWGAHgSRKLUwE_--qfVU/=
"><span style=3D"color:blue">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/8OG=
REpYjWGAHgSRKLUwE_--qfVU/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Reading=
 the BIER charter text again, I</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"color:blue">m not sure the coordination should be initiated
 by BIER WG after it becomes a WG I-D, or by the individual authors to requ=
est that ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:blue">7) BIER in IPv6 :</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family=
:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:blue">
 A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be standardized if coordinate=
d with the 6MAN WG and with understood applicability.</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8221;</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Maybe i=
t</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">s up to =
the chairs or AD to give guidance for this situation ?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">P4: Wrt. SRv6: As soon as yo=
u embody SRv6 SID semantic into IPv6 addresses, i think you are doing SRv6 =
architecture. Only a minority (40% by a cisco<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">estimate) of SRv6 use cases =
ever need SRH, the rest is just SID semantics and non-LDP routing for simpl=
e IPv6 packets.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[A4] Go=
t your point. Much or less the SRv6 ingredients, it</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">s IETF standard-track
 for us to learn from: RFC8402, RFC8754. </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">P5: Wrt. SIDs: I was mostly =
worried about manual or SDN controller assignment of the SIDs (like source =
addresses in BIERv6), but it seems the appropriate BGP signaling mechanisms=
 in BESS documents similar to those
 done in the past for MVPN with MPLS (in other WGs) would allow for automat=
ic allocation and signaling. I think some sentences to the point that this =
is designed to be easily autoconfiguring the addresses it needs or the like=
 would help to counter such concerns
 as i had first reading it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[A5] Co=
rrect. The assignment of the IPv6 addresses (you called SIDs) can be easily=
 automated by SDN.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The sou=
rce address in BIERv6 only need to be allocated on an Ingress PE of MVPN, a=
nd advertise to Egress PE of MVPN using BGP-MVPN routes.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The des=
tination address in BIERv6 only need to be allocated from the planned block=
 of IPv6 address.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">The sta=
ndard-track RFC8754 sets up such paradigm, not only for data-plane optimiza=
tion (below point P6), but also for security deployment to be easily automa=
ted (5.1 of 8754).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">P6: The main concern by the =
WG seems to be how simple the lookup can be made. We already discussed this=
 our last email round:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ability to do a FIB lookup (=
because its a BIER SID) that results in an lookup entry of an unchanged BIE=
R header doing unchanged BIER operations, followed just by a different adja=
cency than for MPLS. In MPLS you would
 swap the destination label (but keep the), here you would swap the destina=
tion IPv6 address.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you tried building a P4=
 reference implementation ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Typically, when something is=
 shown to be implementable in P4, then its harder for higher end NPU vendor=
s to argue their NPU can not do this efficiently ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[A6] I =
believe it</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"=
>s the simplest paradigm settled by RFC8754. It may need to compare
 with the alternatives to understand that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">Haven</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;colo=
r:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">t try P4 ye=
t.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Overall, i think it might he=
lp to think about summarizing the key parts of relevance to the WG to decid=
e somewhere up front in the doc:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Support for L3VPN and 'Int=
ernet' multicast services via IPv6 with BIER.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Single FIB lookup to uncha=
nged BIER header and processing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Swap MPLS label replaced b=
y swap IPv6 destination addess<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- Leverages simple subset of=
 SRv6 architecture for SID addressing,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- No SRH used.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue">[A7] Ag=
reed. That</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;color:blue">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:blue"=
>s the key parts of the BIERv6 design in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Toerless<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for remote presentation---Re: Call for BIER presentation items in IETF107#
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Once we have enough presenters we will look @ the slot and what makes sense
depending on distribution of people ...

-- tony

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 7:14 PM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> Because in-person meeting has been cancelled. Everyone needs to attend
> meeting remotely.
>
> If you want to do remote presentation, please send the request to me.
>
> The people who sent request to me needs not send to me again.
>
> But if someone who sent request to me wants to change the presentation,
> please let me know.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandy
>
>
> <http://www.zte.com.cn/>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*bier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>;
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*bier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@i=
etf.org>;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B402=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=A5 10:17
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**[Bier] Call for BIER presentation items i=
n IETF107#*
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>
> Hi,
>
>
> We have requested a 2 hour BIER WG meeting slot at IETF107# in Vancouver.
>
> If you would like to present at that meeting, please send a request with
> "Presentation draft, the amount of time, presenter".
>
> It is possible to present remotely if you are not attending the meeting.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandy
>
> (Secretary)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Once we have enough presenters we will look=C2=A0@ th=
e slot and what makes sense depending on distribution of people ... <br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>-- tony <br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 7:14 PM &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p s=
tyle=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Hi,<br></p><p style=3D"font-size:=
14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:aria=
l">Because in-person meeting has been cancelled. Everyone needs to attend m=
eeting remotely.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">If you wa=
nt to do remote presentation, please send the request to me.</p><p style=3D=
"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">The people who sent request to me needs =
not send to me again.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">But =
if someone who sent request to me wants to change the presentation, please =
let me know.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p st=
yle=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thanks,</p><p style=3D"font-size:1=
4px;font-family:arial">Sandy</p><div><div><div><p style=3D"margin:0px;line-=
height:20px"><a href=3D"http://www.zte.com.cn/" target=3D"_blank"><br></a><=
/p></div></div></div><div></div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div styl=
e=3D"width:100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:rgb(224,229,2=
33);color:rgb(19,136,255);text-align:center">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=
=BB=B6</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-5929918350500052761zwriteHistoryContainer">=
<div><div style=3D"padding:8px;background-color:rgb(245,246,248)"><div><str=
ong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span>=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100=
007940</span></div><div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</stron=
g><span style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=
=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto=
:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</strong><spa=
n>2020=E5=B9=B402=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=A5 10:17</span></div><div><strong>=E4=B8=
=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span><strong>[Bier] Call for BIER presenta=
tion items in IETF107#</strong></span></div></div><div></div><div><div>____=
___________________________________________<br>BIER=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list<=
br><a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>=
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br><br><div><p style=3D"font-s=
ize:14px;font-family:arial">Hi,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:a=
rial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">We have request=
ed a 2 hour BIER WG meeting slot at IETF107# in Vancouver.=C2=A0</p><p styl=
e=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">If you would like to present at that=
 meeting, please send a request with &quot;Presentation draft, the amount o=
f time, presenter&quot;.=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:ar=
ial">It is possible to present remotely if you are not attending the meetin=
g.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"fon=
t-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thanks,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-f=
amily:arial">Sandy</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">(Secret=
ary)</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div><p><br></p></div>_____________________________=
__________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 17:50:30 -0700
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Subject: [Bier] Direction: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
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draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation authors,

To date, there has been insufficient support on the list to adopt the
draft. It is the BIER WG position at this time that a review by the 6man WG
should take place before any further discussion in the BIER WG.

6MAN WG review aside, the draft still raises significant technical concerns
within the BIER WG. Adding replication information into a programmatic header
does NOT add replication to programmatic forwarding path, nor programmatics
to your replication forward path. It is at this point where replication
begins that all prograrmmatics cease due to the multi-point nature of
replication.  We have a nearly three decades of experience trying to use
unicast semantics to describe multi-point forwarding, and sometimes
learning from the past requires leaving it.

Thanks you,
Chairs

--0000000000002dba1b05a1025391
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"gmail-im"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(32,33,36);font-family:&quot;Goog=
le Sans&quot;,Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">draft-xie-bier=
-ipv6-</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(32,33,36);font-family:&quot;Google Sa=
ns&quot;,Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">encapsulation autho=
rs,</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"color:rgb(32,33,36);font-fa=
mily:&quot;Google Sans&quot;,Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"=
><br></span></div><div><font color=3D"#202124" face=3D"Google Sans, Roboto,=
 RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">To date, there has been insuffi=
cient support on the list to adopt the draft. It is the BIER WG position at=
 this time that a review by the 6man WG should take place before any furthe=
r discussion in the BIER WG.</font></div><div><br></div></span><div>6MAN WG=
 review aside,=C2=A0<font color=3D"#202124" face=3D"Google Sans, Roboto, Ro=
botoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">the draft still raises significant=
 technical concerns within the BIER WG. Adding replication information=C2=
=A0into a=C2=A0</font>programmatic<font color=3D"#202124" face=3D"Google Sa=
ns, Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">=C2=A0header does NO=
T add replication to=C2=A0programmatic forwarding path, nor programmatics t=
o your replication forward path. It is at this point where replication begi=
ns that all prograrmmatics cease due to the multi-point nature of replicati=
on.=C2=A0 We have a nearly three decades of experience trying to use unicas=
t semantics to describe multi-point forwarding, and sometimes learning=C2=
=A0from the past requires leaving it.</font><br></div><div><font color=3D"#=
202124" face=3D"Google Sans, Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-se=
rif"><br></font></div><div><font color=3D"#202124" face=3D"Google Sans, Rob=
oto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Thanks you,</font></div><di=
v><font color=3D"#202124" face=3D"Google Sans, Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helveti=
ca, Arial, sans-serif">Chairs</font></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000002dba1b05a1025391--


From nobody Mon Mar 16 18:37:44 2020
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 02:37:34 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Direction: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
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Thanks, Greg, inline

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 05:50:30PM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote:
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation authors,
> 
> To date, there has been insufficient support on the list to adopt the
> draft. It is the BIER WG position at this time that a review by the 6man WG
> should take place before any further discussion in the BIER WG.
> 
> 6MAN WG review aside, the draft still raises significant technical concerns
> within the BIER WG.

I think this should be a recommendation to both BIER for IPv6 drafts.

> Adding replication information into a programmatic header
> does NOT add replication to programmatic forwarding path, nor programmatics
> to your replication forward path.  It is at this point where replication
> begins that all prograrmmatics cease due to the multi-point nature of
> replication.  We have a nearly three decades of experience trying to use
> unicast semantics to describe multi-point forwarding, and sometimes
> learning from the past requires leaving it.

I really do not understand what that means. Can you rephrase that, please ?

Maybe also through comparison with Sandy's drafts way to do things ?
To me (subject to 6man review) Xie's draft could be a nice way to
be relying on the spirit of rfc8200 and the use of Addresses as SIDs
to support BIER with IPv6 and VPNs.

BIER with MPLS is AFAIK nostly required/desired as a replacement of
pre-BIER solutions for MPLS-VPN. How is this supposed to be done with
BIER via IPv6 ?

Cheers
    Toerless

> Thanks you,
> Chairs

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" <iwijnand@cisco.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
CC: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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From: Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>
To: "gjshep@gmail.com" <gjshep@gmail.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] Direction: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
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From: Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 09:32:15 -0700
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To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>,  BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/eWRLGxSnVBG8PPKT2OBKdGCnW6M>
Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for remote presentation---Re: Call for BIER presentation items in IETF107#
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Hi

Is there a virtual meeting during what was originally the slot for the
Vancouver meeting? I thought most existing WGs were to do meetings
later, and that it will be just the sessions listed at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/agenda ?

That said, as I mentioned to Sandy, I'm happy to do a 5 minute update
on the status of the mld draft.

Thanks,
Stig

On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 10:30 AM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>
> Once we have enough presenters we will look @ the slot and what makes sen=
se depending on distribution of people ...
>
> -- tony
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 7:14 PM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> Because in-person meeting has been cancelled. Everyone needs to attend m=
eeting remotely.
>>
>> If you want to do remote presentation, please send the request to me.
>>
>> The people who sent request to me needs not send to me again.
>>
>> But if someone who sent request to me wants to change the presentation, =
please let me know.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sandy
>>
>>
>> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940
>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Abier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>;
>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Abier-chairs@ietf.org <bier-chairs@ie=
tf.org>;
>> =E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B402=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=A5 10:17
>> =E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A[Bier] Call for BIER presentation items in =
IETF107#
>> _______________________________________________
>> BIER mailing list
>> BIER@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> We have requested a 2 hour BIER WG meeting slot at IETF107# in Vancouver=
.
>>
>> If you would like to present at that meeting, please send a request with=
 "Presentation draft, the amount of time, presenter".
>>
>> It is possible to present remotely if you are not attending the meeting.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sandy
>>
>> (Secretary)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BIER mailing list
>> BIER@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 17:38:00 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" <iwijnand@cisco.com>
Cc: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <20200317163800.GA15016@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <20200312042429.GA12383@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CA+wi2hNnxOXwqGCrTdXPiZD-jK=U0P6uuWwY0=mir21F_yrfLA@mail.gmail.com> <00788CA2-6F96-4AC5-BEB5-218C94AEC456@cisco.com> <CA+wi2hOsRhz5Pxyj2Oo0fpDpwgbCfoTwn2bRd-BSKMtJeAgFww@mail.gmail.com> <20200312190230.GB17570@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CA+wi2hP5dNzWxpH5C_mXk3B0cYLeuSYdv=MLWxLdBU5Pja=fbw@mail.gmail.com> <20200312202909.GC17570@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <BA7A693E-A4B3-4FEB-986F-B747F8FF8625@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 02:00:15PM +0000, IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand) wrote:
> Hi Toerless,
> 
> Picking up on this thread, little late, sorry..
> 
> > I liked Pierre's bitstring in IPv6 addr, i just felt it was too short to be useful.
> 
> It would disagree, it???s about half the size of what we consider to be the standard interoperable mask of 256. We have defined the Set approach to overcome BM length limitations, at the expense of more copies sent by the ingress. Pun intended, BIER-TE is much more restricted to be useful ????

No pun needed. Valid point:

With BIER-TE, the goal is to get tree engineering with bitstrings, 
so we can get per-packet trees, and we think there will be good use-cases
too in more constrained environments, such as broadband access (see
our http draft) as well as in 'DetNet' type manufacturing and the like,
where hopefully the forwarders (due to lower speeds than 100Gbps++)
would be easier to support longer bitstrings as needed. And the length
of bitstrings is not nailed in stone forever like in IPv6, so
different markets could evolve to support different (longer) length.
The 256 is really todays lowest common denominator that we can
support in all SP edge/core-routers.

With IPv6 via bitstrings in addresses (and correct me if you disagree),
the main attraction was the ability of letting applications do BIER
without having change APIs/host-stacks. That is cool short-term, but
the long-term benefit deteriorates as soon as someone does write
a BIER SDK for linux and windows. And with that context in mind i
found the long-term limitation of not being able to grow bitstrings
in various markets to be too limiting.

Cheers
    Toerless

> 
> Thx,
> 
> Ice.


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Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 10:37:48 -0700
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To: Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Direction: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
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--00000000000099c2b005a1106530
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Mike,

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Michael McBride <
michael.mcbride@futurewei.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> *>*To date, there has been insufficient support on the list to adopt the
> draft.
>
>
>
> We won=E2=80=99t know unless we ask the WG.
>
>
>
> >It is the BIER WG position at this time that a review by the 6man WG
> should take place before any further discussion in the BIER WG.
>
>
>
> You mean the bier chairs position. Either way a punt to 6man for bierv6
> work is fair. We will return and report.
>

Thanks Mike. Please keep the BIER WG updated on your progress in 6MAN.


> >6MAN WG review aside, the draft still raises significant technical
> concerns within the BIER WG. Adding replication information into a
> programmatic header does NOT add replication to programmatic forwarding
> path, nor programmatics to your replication forward path. It is at this
> point where replication begins that all prograrmmatics cease due to the
> multi-point nature of replication.  We have a nearly three decades of
> experience trying to use unicast semantics to describe multi-point
> forwarding, and sometimes learning from the past requires leaving it.
>
>
>
> Perhaps others can help me understand what this means. Regardless, what w=
e
> will do for the time being, in bier wg, is continue working on gaining bi=
er
> wg consensus of the requirements, in our draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirement=
s,
> to help steer the wg toward agreeable solutions.
>

I look forward to further discussions around reqs. Once we have consensus
on reqs, the WG will be open to solutions drafts in this space.

Thanks again,
Chairs
(Shep)


> mike
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks you,
>
> Chairs
>

--00000000000099c2b005a1106530
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Mike,</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Michael McBride =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com">michael.mcbride@future=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;bord=
er-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5069720048247990277WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Greg,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>&gt;</b><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto;color:r=
gb(32,33,36)">To date, there has been insufficient support on the list to a=
dopt the draft.
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We won=E2=80=99t know unless we ask the WG.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto">&gt;<span style=
=3D"color:rgb(32,33,36)">It is the BIER WG position at this time that a rev=
iew by the 6man WG should take place before any further discussion in the B=
IER WG.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You mean the bier chairs position. Either way a punt=
 to 6man for bierv6 work is fair. We will return and report.</p></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks Mike. Plea=
se keep the BIER WG updated on your progress in 6MAN.</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_506972004824799=
0277WordSection1"><div><div><div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;6MAN WG review aside,=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-f=
amily:Roboto;color:rgb(32,33,36)">the draft still raises significant techni=
cal concerns within the BIER WG. Adding replication information=C2=A0into a=
=C2=A0</span>programmatic<span style=3D"font-family:Roboto;color:rgb(32,33,=
36)">=C2=A0header
 does NOT add replication to=C2=A0programmatic forwarding path, nor program=
matics to your replication forward path. It is at this point where replicat=
ion begins that all prograrmmatics cease due to the multi-point nature of r=
eplication.=C2=A0 We have a nearly three decades
 of experience trying to use unicast semantics to describe multi-point forw=
arding, and sometimes learning=C2=A0from the past requires leaving it.</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Perhaps others can help me understand what this mean=
s. Regardless, what we will do for the time being, in bier wg, is continue =
working on gaining bier wg consensus of the requirements, in our draft-ietf=
-bier-ipv6-requirements, to help steer
 the wg toward agreeable solutions.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I look forward to further discussions arou=
nd reqs. Once we have consensus on reqs, the WG will be open to solutions d=
rafts in this space.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again,</div><div=
>Chairs</div><div>(Shep)</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-s=
tyle:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5069720048247990277WordSection1"><div><div=
><div><div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto;color:rgb(32,33,36=
)">Thanks you,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto;color:rgb(32,33,36=
)">Chairs</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000099c2b005a1106530--


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Subject: Re: [Bier] comments for draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04.txt
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Toerless,

> would be easier to support longer bitstrings as needed. And the length
> of bitstrings is not nailed in stone forever like in IPv6, so
> different markets could evolve to support different (longer) length.

That is true, by overloading the IPv6 address the BM is fixed, but, it =
is way in front of the packet, so easy accessible for HW, so there will =
be a trade-off between more bits vs. performance penalty for longer =
masks. Longer masks will not come for free.

> The 256 is really todays lowest common denominator that we can
> support in all SP edge/core-routers.
>=20
> With IPv6 via bitstrings in addresses (and correct me if you =
disagree),
> the main attraction was the ability of letting applications do BIER
> without having change APIs/host-stacks. That is cool short-term, but

Yes.

> the long-term benefit deteriorates as soon as someone does write
> a BIER SDK for linux and windows. And with that context in mind i
> found the long-term limitation of not being able to grow bitstrings
> in various markets to be too limiting.

We probably need to define what you consider short-term vs. long-term. =
Getting IGMPv3 supported in the host stack only took 10 years, is that =
long or short term?

Thx,

Ice.

>=20
> Cheers
>    Toerless
>=20
>>=20
>> Thx,
>>=20
>> Ice.


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:17:52 -0700
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+1 basically

1st, it is advised for the draft to validate that their assumptions as to
packet processing and IPv6 conformance hold, refer to questions raised
among others in IETF 105 meeting minutes (if I record correctly).

2nd,yes, we should focus on the requirements document at this point in time
state of which leaves a lot to be desired IMO. I will dig out my old
comments in next days and let's work on this.

--- tony

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 10:38 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Michael McBride <
> michael.mcbride@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>>
>>
>> *>*To date, there has been insufficient support on the list to adopt the
>> draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> We won=E2=80=99t know unless we ask the WG.
>>
>>
>>
>> >It is the BIER WG position at this time that a review by the 6man WG
>> should take place before any further discussion in the BIER WG.
>>
>>
>>
>> You mean the bier chairs position. Either way a punt to 6man for bierv6
>> work is fair. We will return and report.
>>
>
> Thanks Mike. Please keep the BIER WG updated on your progress in 6MAN.
>
>
>> >6MAN WG review aside, the draft still raises significant technical
>> concerns within the BIER WG. Adding replication information into a
>> programmatic header does NOT add replication to programmatic forwarding
>> path, nor programmatics to your replication forward path. It is at this
>> point where replication begins that all prograrmmatics cease due to the
>> multi-point nature of replication.  We have a nearly three decades of
>> experience trying to use unicast semantics to describe multi-point
>> forwarding, and sometimes learning from the past requires leaving it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps others can help me understand what this means. Regardless, what
>> we will do for the time being, in bier wg, is continue working on gainin=
g
>> bier wg consensus of the requirements, in our
>> draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements, to help steer the wg toward agreeable
>> solutions.
>>
>
> I look forward to further discussions around reqs. Once we have consensus
> on reqs, the WG will be open to solutions drafts in this space.
>
> Thanks again,
> Chairs
> (Shep)
>
>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks you,
>>
>> Chairs
>>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>+1 basically<br></div><div><br></div><div>1st, it is =
advised for the draft to validate that their assumptions as to packet proce=
ssing and IPv6 conformance hold, refer to questions raised among others in =
IETF 105 meeting minutes (if I record correctly). <br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>2nd,yes, we should focus on the requirements document at this point in=
 time state of which leaves a lot to be desired IMO. I will dig out my old =
comments in next days and let&#39;s work on this. <br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>--- tony <br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 10:38 AM Greg Shepherd &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div>Mike,</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:27 AM Michael McBride &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.mcbride=
@futurewei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Greg,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>&gt;</b><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto;color:r=
gb(32,33,36)">To date, there has been insufficient support on the list to a=
dopt the draft.
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We won=E2=80=99t know unless we ask the WG.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto">&gt;<span style=
=3D"color:rgb(32,33,36)">It is the BIER WG position at this time that a rev=
iew by the 6man WG should take place before any further discussion in the B=
IER WG.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You mean the bier chairs position. Either way a punt=
 to 6man for bierv6 work is fair. We will return and report.</p></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks Mike. Plea=
se keep the BIER WG updated on your progress in 6MAN.</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div=
><div><div><div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;6MAN WG review aside,=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-f=
amily:Roboto;color:rgb(32,33,36)">the draft still raises significant techni=
cal concerns within the BIER WG. Adding replication information=C2=A0into a=
=C2=A0</span>programmatic<span style=3D"font-family:Roboto;color:rgb(32,33,=
36)">=C2=A0header
 does NOT add replication to=C2=A0programmatic forwarding path, nor program=
matics to your replication forward path. It is at this point where replicat=
ion begins that all prograrmmatics cease due to the multi-point nature of r=
eplication.=C2=A0 We have a nearly three decades
 of experience trying to use unicast semantics to describe multi-point forw=
arding, and sometimes learning=C2=A0from the past requires leaving it.</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Perhaps others can help me understand what this mean=
s. Regardless, what we will do for the time being, in bier wg, is continue =
working on gaining bier wg consensus of the requirements, in our draft-ietf=
-bier-ipv6-requirements, to help steer
 the wg toward agreeable solutions.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I look forward to further discussions arou=
nd reqs. Once we have consensus on reqs, the WG will be open to solutions d=
rafts in this space.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again,</div><div=
>Chairs</div><div>(Shep)</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><div><div><div><div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto;color:rgb(32,33,36=
)">Thanks you,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Roboto;color:rgb(32,33,36=
)">Chairs</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: IJsbrand Wijnands <ice=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: IJsbrand Wijnands <iwijnand@cisco.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>
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Ice,

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 08:37:36PM +0100, IJsbrand Wijnands wrote:
> Toerless,
> 
> > would be easier to support longer bitstrings as needed. And the length
> > of bitstrings is not nailed in stone forever like in IPv6, so
> > different markets could evolve to support different (longer) length.
> 
> That is true, by overloading the IPv6 address the BM is fixed, but, it is way in front of the packet, so easy accessible for HW, so there will be a trade-off between more bits vs. performance penalty for longer masks. Longer masks will not come for free.

It is quite annoying, that we have no good agreed upon "standards" for
expected acceptable packet header processing expectations. Such as
depth into the packet that lookups are e.g.:

"cheap"... "acceptable" ..."impossible"

Quite jealous of the IoT space, where e.g.: rfc7228 exists.
In terms of packet processing, high-speed devices are even more
"constrained", yet we have never attempted to classify those
constraints better publically.

I foronce am going on the assumption, that within 10 year time frame, 256 byte
lookahead for header processing is standard if we push for it. And
128 is standard now.

> > the long-term benefit deteriorates as soon as someone does write
> > a BIER SDK for linux and windows. And with that context in mind i
> > found the long-term limitation of not being able to grow bitstrings
> > in various markets to be too limiting.
> 
> We probably need to define what you consider short-term vs. long-term. Getting IGMPv3 supported in the host stack only took 10 years, is that long or short term?

IGMPv3 is yet another soap-box for me. We should have from day 1 
put that signaling on top of UDP to eliminate the slowest-link
in the dependency chain, the operating system vendors. 

I would call 10 years mid-term, aka: we will see 2nd generation
of implementations in dynamic parts of the market, where there
is growth, and thats where i would hope to see longer masks
becoming adopted, but in segments where there is no big market pickup,
there would be just proliferation of unchanged minimum-to-implement
functionality from the first generation.

Cheers
    Toerless

> Thx,
> 
> Ice.
> 
> > 
> > Cheers
> >    Toerless
> > 
> >> 
> >> Thx,
> >> 
> >> Ice.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


From nobody Sun Mar 22 20:23:12 2020
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References: <0aaf9a4e017643af85cd246b04d1858c@huawei.com> <202003231114061611017@zte.com.cn>
In-Reply-To: <202003231114061611017@zte.com.cn>
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 20:20:59 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+wi2hPF0rjn2M80PxspRLXYQWGLj7AhB0m1JJFQ6WN4GU0XLw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Cc: gengxuesong@huawei.com, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/BJwxXVDGovl_m88zFudhzT7fgos>
Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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That's a currently ongoing discussions between the auhtors (cc:'ing bier as
well)

LL has advantages
* the packet cannot "escape" even if it has TTL > 1
* such a scheme can work purely with ND
* it's hard to "send out the wrong interface" albeit v6 allows AFAIR to
have same link local on multiple interfaces

Originally the draft did not even allow for global addressing (since we
want to use v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS & non-MPLS
encapsulations are used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of
allowing to "jump over non-BIER routers" if addressed to bier prefix (which
I personally think should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise we
may end up with BIER frames in funky places and possible "holes" in the
replication fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it's not necessary since
BIER can be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels  but bunch of
co-auhtors joined and the consensus was to allow it

--- tony



On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:15 PM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi Xuesong,
>
>
> Thank you for your question!
>
> The LL address is used by direct connected neighbor.
>
> For the neighbor which is not direct connected, the wider range address
> should be used.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandy
>
>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Gengxuesong(GengXuesong) <gengxueso=
ng@huawei.com>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;6man@iet=
f.org <6man@ietf.org>;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 11:03
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**RE: Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-=
bierin6-04*
>
> Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6:
>
>
>
> I have some questions about the section 2 when reading the draft. It is
> mentioned that:
>
> =E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 header SHOULD be the neigh=
bor's
> link-local address.
>
> Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be the BIER prefix of the BFR
> neighbor.=E2=80=9D
>
> Seems like the draft proposes 2 methods of IPv6 header encapsulation.
>
> Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, what's the use case and desig=
n
> consideration for each method?
>
>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Xuesong
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org]*On Behalf Of *
> zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM
> *To:* 6man@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04), before you read th=
e
> draft, please let me introduce BIER technology to you at first:
>
> BIER technology, as defined in RFC8279, it's a new multicast technology.
> The principle is achieving multicast forwarding by hop-by-hop execution.
>
> BIER is a transport protocol, not just a function. As defined in RFC8296,
> BIER has it's own ethernet encapsulation with ethernet type 0xAB37, and
> also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation.
>
> BIER has it's own OAM function, ECMP function and traceability. etc.
> through BIER header defined in RFC8296.
>
>
>
> For travelling through IPv6 only enviroment, we'd like to travel BIER
> packet by IPv6 encapsulation.
>
> In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want to just use a new Next Header typ=
e
> for BIER header carrying.
>
> We want to bring the minimum impact on IPv6 existed execution, and the
> maximum flexibility for header interoperability.
>
> So if you have any question about draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, or about
> BIER technology itself, please tell me. I'am glad to explain them to you.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TonyPrzygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com=
>
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@fu=
turewei.com>;
>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6man@ietf.org <6man@ietf.org>;
>
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5 01:12
>
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: BIER in IPv6*
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <BIER WG chair hat on>
>
>
>
> The specific ask here is for the 6man to look over both drafts, i.e.
>
>
>
> draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
>
>
>
> and
>
>
>
> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
>
>
>
> and verify whether they conform to published IPv6 standards or raise
> objections/concerns.
>
>
>
> The requirements document is currently under active work/comments and doe=
s
> not represent any final or wide-consensus state so an opinion on its stat=
e
> is appreciated but it should not be used as any final or binding list of
> requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG
>
>
>
> thanks
>
>
>
> --- tony
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride <
> michael.mcbride@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> The bier wg could use your ipv6 recommendations. We=E2=80=99ve worked on =
various
> solutions to transport a bier header in ipv6. We decided to pause and
> create a requirements document (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to hel=
p
> steer us towards the right solution(s). In that drafts appendix we have a
> fairly good summary of the various solutions.
>
>
>
> We=E2=80=99ve started to rally behind two solutions which meet the majori=
ty of the
> requirements: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (bier header in ipv6 EH)
> and draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 (bier header as payload using ipv6 NH). The
> bier chairs today asked to punt the bierv6 topic to 6man for advice befor=
e
> adopting any of these solutions.
>
>
>
> So here we are seeking your advice. The most simple approach would
> probably be to give
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/ a
> look and scroll down to the appendix to see a summary of the various
> solutions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.
>
>
>
> thanks!
>
> mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--00000000000031b9a305a17d2620
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>That&#39;s a currently ongoing discussions between th=
e auhtors (cc:&#39;ing bier as well)</div><div><br></div><div>LL has advant=
ages</div><div>* the packet cannot &quot;escape&quot; even if it has TTL &g=
t; 1</div><div>* such a scheme can work purely with ND</div><div>* it&#39;s=
 hard to &quot;send out the wrong interface&quot; albeit v6 allows AFAIR to=
 have same link local on multiple interfaces</div><div><br></div><div>Origi=
nally the draft did not even allow for global addressing (since we want to =
use v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS &amp; non-MPLS encapsulations a=
re used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of allowing to &quot;jump =
over non-BIER routers&quot; if addressed to bier prefix (which I personally=
 think should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise we may end up w=
ith BIER frames in funky places and possible &quot;holes&quot; in the repli=
cation fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it&#39;s not necessary since BI=
ER can be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels=C2=A0 but bunch of =
co-auhtors joined and the consensus was to allow it <br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>--- tony <br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 22, 202=
0 at 8:15 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn">zhang.zheng@zte.=
com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Hi Xuesong,</p><p =
style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14=
px;font-family:arial">Thank you for your question!</p><p style=3D"font-size=
:14px;font-family:arial">The LL address is used by direct connected neighbo=
r.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">For the neighbor which =
is not direct connected, the wider range address should be used.</p><p styl=
e=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;f=
ont-family:arial">Thanks,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">=
Sandy</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><div></div><=
div><div style=3D"display:block"><div style=3D"width:100%;height:28px;line-=
height:28px;background-color:rgb(224,229,233);color:rgb(19,136,255);text-al=
ign:center">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_75=
14846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div style=3D"padding:8px;bac=
kground-color:rgb(245,246,248)"><div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=
=BC=9A</strong><span>Gengxuesong(GengXuesong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gengxue=
song@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">gengxuesong@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span></d=
iv><div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span style=3D=
"display:inline">=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;</span><span style=3D"display:i=
nline"><a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</strong><span>20=
20=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 11:03</span></div><div><strong>=E4=B8=BB =
=E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span><strong>RE: Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zha=
ng-bier-bierin6-04</strong></span></div></div><div></div><div><div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black=
" lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6:<u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,san=
s-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;l=
ine-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lan=
g=3D"EN-US">I have some questions about the section 2 when reading the draf=
t. It is mentioned that:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=
=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 header SHOULD be the neighbor&#39;=
s link-local address.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">Otherwis=
e... the destination address SHOULD be the BIER prefix of the BFR neighbor.=
=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-heig=
ht:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">Seems like the draft =
proposes 2 methods of IPv6 header encapsulation.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:blac=
k" lang=3D"EN-US">Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, what&#39;s th=
e use case and design consideration for each method?<u></u><u></u></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150=
%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">Be=
st Regards<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-hei=
ght:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">Xuesong<u></u><u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rg=
b(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><strong><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></strong><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"> ipv6 [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>]<strong>On Behalf Of </strong><a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@z=
te.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a><br><strong>Sent:</s=
trong> Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM<br><strong>To:</strong> <a href=3D"=
mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a><br><strong>Subjec=
t:</strong> Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04<u></u><u></u></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p><div><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04), befor=
e you read the draft, please let me introduce BIER technology to you at fir=
st:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER technology, as def=
ined in RFC8279, it&#39;s a new multicast technology. The principle is achi=
eving multicast forwarding by hop-by-hop execution.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER is a transport protocol, not just a function.=
 As defined in RFC8296, BIER has it&#39;s own ethernet encapsulation with e=
thernet type 0xAB37, and also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER has it&#39;s own OAM fun=
ction, ECMP function and traceability. etc. through BIER header defined in =
RFC8296.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">For travelling through IPv6 only envir=
oment, we&#39;d like to travel BIER packet by IPv6 encapsulation.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we w=
ant to just use a new Next Header type for BIER header carrying.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">We want to bring the minimum impact o=
n IPv6 existed execution, and the maximum flexibility for header interopera=
bility.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">So if you have any =
question about draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, or about BIER technology itself=
, please tell me. I&#39;am glad to explain them to you.<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sandy<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;=
Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;line-height:21pt;bac=
kground:rgb(224,229,233) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(19,136,255)">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></span></p><div id=3D"gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHis=
toryContainer"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rg=
b(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family=
:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US">TonyPrzygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span></span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=
=9A</span></strong><span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Michael McBride &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.mcbride=
@futurewei.com</a>&gt;;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,2=
48) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf=
.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none rep=
eat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US">2020</spa=
n>=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">03</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">19</=
span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US"> 01:12<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat s=
croll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=B8=
=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A<span lang=3D"EN-US">Re: BIER in IPv6</span></span><=
/strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-=
-------------------------------------------------------------------<br>IETF=
=C2=A0IPv6=C2=A0working=C2=A0group=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list<br><a href=3D"mai=
lto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>Administrative=C2=
=A0Requests:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>---------=
-----------------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></=
span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&lt;BIER WG =
chair hat on&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US">The specific ask here is for the 6man to look over bot=
h drafts, i.e.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">draft-zhang-bier-bierin6<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">and<u></u><u></u></span></p=
></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-xie-bier-ipv6=
-encapsulation<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">and verify whether they conform to published IPv6 standa=
rds or raise objections/concerns.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The requirements document is currentl=
y under active work/comments and does not represent any final or wide-conse=
nsus state so an opinion on its state is appreciated but it should not be u=
sed as any final or binding list
 of requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG<u></u><u></u></span=
></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">thanks<u></u><u=
></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">--=
- tony<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.m=
cbride@futurewei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><blockquo=
te style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204=
,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1=
pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hello,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The bier wg could use your ipv6 r=
ecommendations. We=E2=80=99ve worked on various solutions to transport a bi=
er header in ipv6. We decided to pause and create a requirements
 document (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to help steer us towards the =
right solution(s). In that drafts appendix we have a fairly good summary of=
 the various solutions.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">We=E2=80=99ve started to rally behind two solutions which =
meet the majority of the requirements: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (b=
ier header in ipv6 EH) and draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
 (bier header as payload using ipv6 NH). The bier chairs today asked to pun=
t the bierv6 topic to 6man for advice before adopting any of these solution=
s.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So =
here we are seeking your advice. The most simple approach would probably be=
 to give =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-=
ipv6-requirements/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/</a>
 a look and scroll down to the appendix to see a summary of the various sol=
utions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">thanks!<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mike<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(47,84,150)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">------------------------------------------------=
--------------------<br>IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br><a href=3D"=
mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>Administrative=
 Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>----------------=
----------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></=
p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div><p><br></p></div>------------------------------------------------=
--------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000031b9a305a17d2620--


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To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Bier] Flow Label [was Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04]
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Hi,

I have not read the whole draft but I did notice this:

>    The Flow-ID in the IPv6 packet SHOULD be copied from the entropy
>    field in the BIER encapsulation.

It's good that the BIER entropy field defined in RFC8296 is 20 bits long, but there are a few issues here:

1. Nit: in RFC 8200 the field is named "Flow Label", not "Flow-ID".

2. The text technically violates RFC8200, which states that the flow label is defined by RFC6437. 

3. RFC6437 recommends the flow label generation procedure to follow a certain rule:

   It is therefore RECOMMENDED
   that source hosts support the flow label by setting the flow label
   field for all packets of a given flow to the same value chosen from
   an approximation to a discrete uniform distribution.

but I didn't find any discussion in RFC8296 of how the BIER entropy value is generated. 

I think you could get round these two points by something like:

   The entropy value used in an IPv6 flow label SHOULD be generated
   by a method compatible with [RFC6437].

4. Finally, it seems to me that the flow label is useless by definition for link-local traffic; however, it's harmless. (I never really thought about that before.) Of course, it could be relevant for globally-reachable addresses.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter


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From nobody Mon Mar 23 12:41:22 2020
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To: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" <gengxuesong@huawei.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>
References: <0aaf9a4e017643af85cd246b04d1858c@huawei.com> <202003231114061611017@zte.com.cn> <CA+wi2hPF0rjn2M80PxspRLXYQWGLj7AhB0m1JJFQ6WN4GU0XLw@mail.gmail.com> <45db7d3141664b08a2832020829326c1@huawei.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/e6G4weqUzpQGEqC6p2c7_SO7Ms8>
Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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Hi Xuesong,

>  link-local forwarding concerns

What are those concerns? Link-local forwarding is forbidden by RFC4291 an=
d any router that performs it is completely faulty and should be thrown a=
way.

For the BIER scenario, link-local seems very suitable.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 23-Mar-20 19:27, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Thank you for your prompt response, and giving your considerations abou=
t these two methods.
>=20
> I notice that you mentioned:
>=20
>>>this has a nice side effect of allowing to "jump over non-BIER routers=
" if addressed to bier prefix
>=20
> So would this method be the preferred one to cover more scenarios ?
>=20
> It seems to me that 2 different methods may need more technical conside=
rations for both of them, such as , link-local forwarding concerns for op=
tion 1 and global-address security concerns for option 2.
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Best Regards
>=20
> Xuesong
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> *From:*Tony Przygienda [mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 23, 2020 11:21 AM
> *To:* zhang.zheng <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
> *Cc:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; 6MAN <6man@i=
etf.org>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> That's a currently ongoing discussions between the auhtors (cc:'ing bie=
r as well)
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> LL has advantages
>=20
> * the packet cannot "escape" even if it has TTL > 1
>=20
> * such a scheme can work purely with ND
>=20
> * it's hard to "send out the wrong interface" albeit v6 allows AFAIR to=
 have same link local on multiple interfaces
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> Originally the draft did not even allow for global addressing (since we=
 want to use v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS & non-MPLS encapsula=
tions are used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of allowing to "j=
ump over non-BIER routers" if addressed to bier prefix (which I personall=
y think should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise we may end u=
p with BIER frames in funky places and possible "holes" in the replicatio=
n fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it's not necessary since BIER can =
be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels=C2=A0 but bunch of co-au=
htors joined and the consensus was to allow it
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> --- tony
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:15 PM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhang.z=
heng@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
>=20
>     Hi Xuesong,
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Thank you for your question!
>=20
>     The LL address is used by direct connected neighbor.
>=20
>     For the neighbor which is not direct connected, the wider range add=
ress should be used.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Thanks,
>=20
>     Sandy
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>=20
>     *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Gengxuesong(GengXuesong) <gen=
gxuesong@huawei.com <mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com>>
>=20
>     *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;6m=
an@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>=
;
>=20
>     *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A51=
1:03
>=20
>     *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-b=
ier-bierin6-04*
>=20
>     Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6:
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     I have some questions about the section 2 when reading the draft. I=
t is mentioned that:
>=20
>     =E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 header SHOULD be the=
 neighbor's link-local address.
>=20
>     Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be the BIER prefix of t=
he BFR neighbor.=E2=80=9D
>=20
>     Seems like the draft proposes 2 methods of IPv6 header encapsulatio=
n.
>=20
>     Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, what's the use case and=
 design consideration for each method?
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Best Regards
>=20
>     Xuesong
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     *From:*ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf=
=2Eorg>]*On Behalf Of *zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com=
=2Ecn>
>     *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM
>     *To:* 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Hi,
>=20
>     As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04), before you r=
ead the draft, please let me introduce BIER technology to you at first:
>=20
>     BIER technology, as defined in RFC8279, it's a new multicast techno=
logy. The principle is achieving multicast forwarding by hop-by-hop execu=
tion.
>=20
>     BIER is a transport protocol, not just a function. As defined in RF=
C8296, BIER has it's own ethernet encapsulation with ethernet type 0xAB37=
, and also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation.
>=20
>     BIER has it's own OAM function, ECMP function and traceability. etc=
=2E through BIER header defined in RFC8296.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     For travelling through IPv6 only enviroment, we'd like to travel BI=
ER packet by IPv6 encapsulation.
>=20
>     In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want to just use a new Next Head=
er type for BIER header carrying.
>=20
>     We want to bring the minimum impact on IPv6 existed execution, and =
the maximum flexibility for header interoperability.
>=20
>     So if you have any question about draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, or a=
bout BIER technology itself, please tell me. I'am glad to explain them to=
 you.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     Thanks,
>=20
>     Sandy
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>=20
>     *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TonyPrzygienda <tonysietf@gma=
il.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
>=20
>     *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Michael McBride <michael.mcbr=
ide@futurewei.com <mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>>;
>=20
>     *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ie=
tf.org> <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>;
>=20
>     *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A50=
1:12
>=20
>     *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: BIER in IPv6*
>=20
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>     IETF=C2=A0IPv6=C2=A0working=C2=A0group=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
>     ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>     Administrative=C2=A0Requests:=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/ipv6
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
>     <BIER WG chair hat on>
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     The specific ask here is for the 6man to look over both drafts, i.e=
=2E
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     and
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     and verify whether they conform to published IPv6 standards or rais=
e objections/concerns.
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     The requirements document is currently under active work/comments a=
nd does not represent any final or wide-consensus state so an opinion on =
its state is appreciated but it should not be used as any final or bindin=
g list of requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     thanks
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     --- tony
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@fu=
turewei.com <mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>> wrote:
>=20
>         Hello,
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         The bier wg could use your ipv6 recommendations. We=E2=80=99ve =
worked on various solutions to transport a bier header in ipv6. We decide=
d to pause and create a requirements document (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requi=
rements) to help steer us towards the right solution(s). In that drafts a=
ppendix we have a fairly good summary of the various solutions.
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         We=E2=80=99ve started to rally behind two solutions which meet =
the majority of the requirements: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (bier=
 header in ipv6 EH) and draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 (bier header as payload =
using ipv6 NH). The bier chairs today asked to punt the bierv6 topic to 6=
man for advice before adopting any of these solutions.
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         So here we are seeking your advice. The most simple approach wo=
uld probably be to give =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf=
-bier-ipv6-requirements/ a look and scroll down to the appendix to see a =
summary of the various solutions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         thanks!
>=20
>         mike
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         =C2=A0
>=20
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>         IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>         ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>         Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
ipv6
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     =C2=A0
>=20
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>     IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>     Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6=

>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


From nobody Mon Mar 23 13:09:01 2020
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 07:08:17 +1100
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" <gengxuesong@huawei.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>,  "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, 06:43 Brian E Carpenter, <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Xuesong,
>
> >  link-local forwarding concerns
>
> What are those concerns? Link-local forwarding is forbidden by RFC4291 an=
d
> any router that performs it is completely faulty and should be thrown awa=
y.
>


Actually, forwarding is allowed by RFC 4007, but only back onto the same
link.


> For the BIER scenario, link-local seems very suitable.
>

Sounds like I'd agree, just haven't read the ID.

Packets with ULA or GUA DAs and LL SAs have been seen to leak off link.
Those implementations a missing an RPF like check on LL SAs. The sending
hosts shouldn't really be sending those packets in the first place.

There's always a risk of bugs or non-compliant implementations, which is
why Postel's law exists.

(Wouldn't it be great if a "Implementations MUST be bug free." statement in
an RFC was complied with 100%!)

Regards,
Mark.



> Regards
>    Brian Carpenter
>
> On 23-Mar-20 19:27, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your prompt response, and giving your considerations abou=
t
> these two methods.
> >
> > I notice that you mentioned:
> >
> >>>this has a nice side effect of allowing to "jump over non-BIER routers=
"
> if addressed to bier prefix
> >
> > So would this method be the preferred one to cover more scenarios ?
> >
> > It seems to me that 2 different methods may need more technical
> considerations for both of them, such as , link-local forwarding concerns
> for option 1 and global-address security concerns for option 2.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Xuesong
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:*Tony Przygienda [mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com]
> > *Sent:* Monday, March 23, 2020 11:21 AM
> > *To:* zhang.zheng <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
> > *Cc:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; 6MAN <
> 6man@ietf.org>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
> >
> >
> >
> > That's a currently ongoing discussions between the auhtors (cc:'ing bie=
r
> as well)
> >
> >
> >
> > LL has advantages
> >
> > * the packet cannot "escape" even if it has TTL > 1
> >
> > * such a scheme can work purely with ND
> >
> > * it's hard to "send out the wrong interface" albeit v6 allows AFAIR to
> have same link local on multiple interfaces
> >
> >
> >
> > Originally the draft did not even allow for global addressing (since we
> want to use v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS & non-MPLS
> encapsulations are used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of
> allowing to "jump over non-BIER routers" if addressed to bier prefix (whi=
ch
> I personally think should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise w=
e
> may end up with BIER frames in funky places and possible "holes" in the
> replication fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it's not necessary since
> BIER can be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels  but bunch of
> co-auhtors joined and the consensus was to allow it
> >
> >
> >
> > --- tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:15 PM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:
> zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi Xuesong,
> >
> >
> >
> >     Thank you for your question!
> >
> >     The LL address is used by direct connected neighbor.
> >
> >     For the neighbor which is not direct connected, the wider range
> address should be used.
> >
> >
> >
> >     Thanks,
> >
> >     Sandy
> >
> >
> >
> >     =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> >
> >     *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Gengxuesong(GengXuesong) <gen=
gxuesong@huawei.com <mailto:
> gengxuesong@huawei.com>>
> >
> >     *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;6m=
an@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <6man@ietf.org
> <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>;
> >
> >     *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A51=
1:03
> >
> >     *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-b=
ier-bierin6-04*
> >
> >     Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6:
> >
> >
> >
> >     I have some questions about the section 2 when reading the draft. I=
t
> is mentioned that:
> >
> >     =E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 header SHOULD be the
> neighbor's link-local address.
> >
> >     Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be the BIER prefix of
> the BFR neighbor.=E2=80=9D
> >
> >     Seems like the draft proposes 2 methods of IPv6 header encapsulatio=
n.
> >
> >     Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, what's the use case and
> design consideration for each method?
> >
> >
> >
> >     Best Regards
> >
> >     Xuesong
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     *From:*ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:
> ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>]*On Behalf Of *zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:
> zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
> >     *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM
> >     *To:* 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>
> >     *Subject:* Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
> >
> >
> >
> >     Hi,
> >
> >     As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04), before you
> read the draft, please let me introduce BIER technology to you at first:
> >
> >     BIER technology, as defined in RFC8279, it's a new multicast
> technology. The principle is achieving multicast forwarding by hop-by-hop
> execution.
> >
> >     BIER is a transport protocol, not just a function. As defined in
> RFC8296, BIER has it's own ethernet encapsulation with ethernet type
> 0xAB37, and also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation.
> >
> >     BIER has it's own OAM function, ECMP function and traceability. etc=
.
> through BIER header defined in RFC8296.
> >
> >
> >
> >     For travelling through IPv6 only enviroment, we'd like to travel
> BIER packet by IPv6 encapsulation.
> >
> >     In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want to just use a new Next
> Header type for BIER header carrying.
> >
> >     We want to bring the minimum impact on IPv6 existed execution, and
> the maximum flexibility for header interoperability.
> >
> >     So if you have any question about draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, or
> about BIER technology itself, please tell me. I'am glad to explain them t=
o
> you.
> >
> >
> >
> >     Thanks,
> >
> >     Sandy
> >
> >
> >
> >     =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> >
> >     *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TonyPrzygienda <tonysietf@gma=
il.com <mailto:
> tonysietf@gmail.com>>
> >
> >     *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Michael McBride <michael.mcbr=
ide@futurewei.com <mailto:
> michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>>;
> >
> >     *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ie=
tf.org> <6man@ietf.org <mailto:
> 6man@ietf.org>>;
> >
> >     *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A50=
1:12
> >
> >     *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: BIER in IPv6*
> >
> >     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> >     IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> >     ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
> >     Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> >     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> >
> >     <BIER WG chair hat on>
> >
> >
> >
> >     The specific ask here is for the 6man to look over both drafts, i.e=
.
> >
> >
> >
> >     draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
> >
> >
> >
> >     and
> >
> >
> >
> >     draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
> >
> >
> >
> >     and verify whether they conform to published IPv6 standards or rais=
e
> objections/concerns.
> >
> >
> >
> >     The requirements document is currently under active work/comments
> and does not represent any final or wide-consensus state so an opinion on
> its state is appreciated but it should not be used as any final or bindin=
g
> list of requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG
> >
> >
> >
> >     thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >     --- tony
> >
> >
> >
> >     On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride <
> michael.mcbride@futurewei.com <mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >         Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> >         The bier wg could use your ipv6 recommendations. We=E2=80=99ve =
worked on
> various solutions to transport a bier header in ipv6. We decided to pause
> and create a requirements document (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to
> help steer us towards the right solution(s). In that drafts appendix we
> have a fairly good summary of the various solutions.
> >
> >
> >
> >         We=E2=80=99ve started to rally behind two solutions which meet =
the
> majority of the requirements: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (bier
> header in ipv6 EH) and draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 (bier header as payload
> using ipv6 NH). The bier chairs today asked to punt the bierv6 topic to
> 6man for advice before adopting any of these solutions.
> >
> >
> >
> >         So here we are seeking your advice. The most simple approach
> would probably be to give
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/ a
> look and scroll down to the appendix to see a summary of the various
> solutions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.
> >
> >
> >
> >         thanks!
> >
> >         mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >         IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> >         ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
> >         Administrative Requests:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> >
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> >     IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> >     ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
> >     Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> >     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > ipv6@ietf.org
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--000000000000d74f6f05a18b32bc
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, 06:43 Brian E Carpenter, &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Xuesong,<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 link-local forwarding concerns<br>
<br>
What are those concerns? Link-local forwarding is forbidden by RFC4291 and =
any router that performs it is completely faulty and should be thrown away.=
<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Actually, forwarding is allowed by RFC 4007, bu=
t only back onto the same link.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
For the BIER scenario, link-local seems very suitable.<br></blockquote></di=
v></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Sounds like I&#39;d a=
gree, just haven&#39;t read the ID.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto">Packets with ULA or GUA DAs and LL SAs have been seen to leak o=
ff link. Those implementations a missing an RPF like check on LL SAs. The s=
ending hosts shouldn&#39;t really be sending those packets in the first pla=
ce.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There&#39;s always a=
 risk of bugs or non-compliant implementations, which is why Postel&#39;s l=
aw exists.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">(Wouldn&#39;t=
 it be great if a &quot;Implementations MUST be bug free.&quot; statement i=
n an RFC was complied with 100%!)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Mark.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Regards<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter<br>
<br>
On 23-Mar-20 19:27, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thank you for your prompt response, and giving your considerations abo=
ut these two methods.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I notice that you mentioned:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;this has a nice side effect of allowing to &quot;jump over non-=
BIER routers&quot; if addressed to bier prefix<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So would this method be the preferred one to cover more scenarios ?<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It seems to me that 2 different methods may need more technical consid=
erations for both of them, such as , link-local forwarding concerns for opt=
ion 1 and global-address security concerns for option 2.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best Regards<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Xuesong<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; *From:*Tony Przygienda [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; *Sent:* Monday, March 23, 2020 11:21 AM<br>
&gt; *To:* zhang.zheng &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; *Cc:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gengxuesong@hua=
wei.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">gengxuesong@huawei.com</a>&gt=
;; 6MAN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noref=
errer">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;; BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; *Subject:* Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; That&#39;s a currently ongoing discussions between the auhtors (cc:&#3=
9;ing bier as well)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; LL has advantages<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; * the packet cannot &quot;escape&quot; even if it has TTL &gt; 1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; * such a scheme can work purely with ND<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; * it&#39;s hard to &quot;send out the wrong interface&quot; albeit v6 =
allows AFAIR to have same link local on multiple interfaces<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Originally the draft did not even allow for global addressing (since w=
e want to use v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS &amp; non-MPLS encaps=
ulations are used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of allowing to &=
quot;jump over non-BIER routers&quot; if addressed to bier prefix (which I =
personally think should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise we ma=
y end up with BIER frames in funky places and possible &quot;holes&quot; in=
 the replication fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it&#39;s not necessar=
y since BIER can be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels=C2=A0 but=
 bunch of co-auhtors joined and the consensus was to allow it<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --- tony<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:15 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.=
com.cn" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a> &lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Xuesong,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you for your question!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The LL address is used by direct connected neighbor=
.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For the neighbor which is not direct connected, the=
 wider range address should be used.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sandy<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Gengxuesong(G=
engXuesong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer">gengxuesong@huawei.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:gengxuesong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">gengxuesong@h=
uawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=
=BE=81<a href=3D"mailto:00007940%3B6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">00007940;6man@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">6man@ietf=
.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=
=9C=8823=E6=97=A511:03<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: Re:BIER in IPv6 -=
-- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04*<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6:<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have some questions about the section 2 when read=
ing the draft. It is mentioned that:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 head=
er SHOULD be the neighbor&#39;s link-local address.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be the =
BIER prefix of the BFR neighbor.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Seems like the draft proposes 2 methods of IPv6 hea=
der encapsulation.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, what&#3=
9;s the use case and design consideration for each method?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best Regards<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Xuesong<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:*ipv6 [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6-bounces@ietf.org</a> &l=
t;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">ipv6-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;]*On Behalf Of *<a href=3D"mailto:=
zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">zhang.zheng@zt=
e.com.cn</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* <a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">6man@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:6ma=
n@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bie=
rin6-04<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-0=
4), before you read the draft, please let me introduce BIER technology to y=
ou at first:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER technology, as defined in RFC8279, it&#39;s a =
new multicast technology. The principle is achieving multicast forwarding b=
y hop-by-hop execution.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER is a transport protocol, not just a function. =
As defined in RFC8296, BIER has it&#39;s own ethernet encapsulation with et=
hernet type 0xAB37, and also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER has it&#39;s own OAM function, ECMP function a=
nd traceability. etc. through BIER header defined in RFC8296.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For travelling through IPv6 only enviroment, we&#39=
;d like to travel BIER packet by IPv6 encapsulation.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want to just use=
 a new Next Header type for BIER header carrying.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We want to bring the minimum impact on IPv6 existed=
 execution, and the maximum flexibility for header interoperability.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So if you have any question about draft-zhang-bier-=
bierin6-04, or about BIER technology itself, please tell me. I&#39;am glad =
to explain them to you.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sandy<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TonyPrzygiend=
a &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noref=
errer">tonysietf@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Michael McBri=
de &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">michael.mcbride@futurewei.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">m=
ichael.mcbride@futurewei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">6man@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">6man@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:6=
man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt=
;;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=
=9C=8819=E6=97=A501:12<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: BIER in IPv6*<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------------------=
-----------------<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF=C2=A0IPv6=C2=A0working=C2=A0group=C2=A0mailing=
=C2=A0list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative=C2=A0Requests:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------------------=
-----------------<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;BIER WG chair hat on&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The specific ask here is for the 6man to look over =
both drafts, i.e.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-zhang-bier-bierin6<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and verify whether they conform to published IPv6 s=
tandards or raise objections/concerns.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The requirements document is currently under active=
 work/comments and does not represent any final or wide-consensus state so =
an opinion on its state is appreciated but it should not be used as any fin=
al or binding list of requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thanks<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--- tony<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">michael.mcbride@futurewei.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">michael=
.mcbride@futurewei.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The bier wg could use your ipv6 recom=
mendations. We=E2=80=99ve worked on various solutions to transport a bier h=
eader in ipv6. We decided to pause and create a requirements document (draf=
t-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to help steer us towards the right solution(=
s). In that drafts appendix we have a fairly good summary of the various so=
lutions.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We=E2=80=99ve started to rally behind=
 two solutions which meet the majority of the requirements: draft-xie-bier-=
ipv6-encapsulation (bier header in ipv6 EH) and draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 (b=
ier header as payload using ipv6 NH). The bier chairs today asked to punt t=
he bierv6 topic to 6man for advice before adopting any of these solutions.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So here we are seeking your advice. T=
he most simple approach would probably be to give =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/" rel=3D"norefer=
rer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-bier-ipv6-requirements/</a> a look and scroll down to the appendix to se=
e a summary of the various solutions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thanks!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mike<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-------------------------------------=
-------------------------------<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-------------------------------------=
-------------------------------<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------------------=
-----------------<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------------------=
-----------------<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt; IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">=
ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/ipv6" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ipv6@=
ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--000000000000d74f6f05a18b32bc--


From nobody Mon Mar 23 14:57:00 2020
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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" <gengxuesong@huawei.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
References: <0aaf9a4e017643af85cd246b04d1858c@huawei.com> <202003231114061611017@zte.com.cn> <CA+wi2hPF0rjn2M80PxspRLXYQWGLj7AhB0m1JJFQ6WN4GU0XLw@mail.gmail.com> <45db7d3141664b08a2832020829326c1@huawei.com> <24f852f6-80df-b16f-6c3d-24be30373923@gmail.com> <CAO42Z2zJ9UOy5uk4wsCPJ=f3S_=34w6PcFMDtOkaKU+r3hJL+Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/nDk_bkRyKGf15E2E_oiL1Fk83rM>
Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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On 24-Mar-20 09:08, Mark Smith wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, 06:43 Brian E Carpenter, <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.=
com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>     Hi Xuesong,
>=20
>     >=C2=A0 link-local forwarding concerns
>=20
>     What are those concerns? Link-local forwarding is forbidden by RFC4=
291 and any router that performs it is completely faulty and should be th=
rown away.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Actually, forwarding is allowed by RFC 4007, but only back onto the sam=
e link.

Sure, which is fine of course. RFC4291 governs this, saying:

   Routers must not forward any packets with Link-Local source or
   destination addresses to other links.

which does not forbid forwarding to the *same* link.

    Brian

>=20
>=20
>     For the BIER scenario, link-local seems very suitable.
>=20
>=20
> Sounds like I'd agree, just haven't read the ID.
>=20
> Packets with ULA or GUA DAs and LL SAs have been seen to leak off link.=
 Those implementations a missing an RPF like check on LL SAs. The sending=
 hosts shouldn't really be sending those packets in the first place.
>=20
> There's always a risk of bugs or non-compliant implementations, which i=
s why Postel's law exists.
>=20
> (Wouldn't it be great if a "Implementations MUST be bug free." statemen=
t in an RFC was complied with 100%!)
>=20
> Regards,
> Mark.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     Regards
>     =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter
>=20
>     On 23-Mar-20 19:27, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote:
>     > Hi,
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > Thank you for your prompt response, and giving your consideration=
s about these two methods.
>     >
>     > I notice that you mentioned:
>     >
>     >>>this has a nice side effect of allowing to "jump over non-BIER r=
outers" if addressed to bier prefix
>     >
>     > So would this method be the preferred one to cover more scenarios=
 ?
>     >
>     > It seems to me that 2 different methods may need more technical c=
onsiderations for both of them, such as , link-local forwarding concerns =
for option 1 and global-address security concerns for option 2.
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > Best Regards
>     >
>     > Xuesong
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > *From:*Tony Przygienda [mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com <mailto:tonysi=
etf@gmail.com>]
>     > *Sent:* Monday, March 23, 2020 11:21 AM
>     > *To:* zhang.zheng <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte=
=2Ecom.cn>>
>     > *Cc:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com <mailto:=
gengxuesong@huawei.com>>; 6MAN <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>; BI=
ER WG <bier@ietf.org <mailto:bier@ietf.org>>
>     > *Subject:* Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > That's a currently ongoing discussions between the auhtors (cc:'i=
ng bier as well)
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > LL has advantages
>     >
>     > * the packet cannot "escape" even if it has TTL > 1
>     >
>     > * such a scheme can work purely with ND
>     >
>     > * it's hard to "send out the wrong interface" albeit v6 allows AF=
AIR to have same link local on multiple interfaces
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > Originally the draft did not even allow for global addressing (si=
nce we want to use v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS & non-MPLS enc=
apsulations are used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of allowing=
 to "jump over non-BIER routers" if addressed to bier prefix (which I per=
sonally think should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise we may=
 end up with BIER frames in funky places and possible "holes" in the repl=
ication fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it's not necessary since BIE=
R can be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels=C2=A0 but bunch of=
 co-auhtors joined and the consensus was to allow it
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > --- tony
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > =C2=A0
>     >
>     > On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:15 PM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:z=
hang.zheng@zte.com.cn> <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhang.zheng=
@zte.com.cn>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Xuesong,
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you for your question!
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The LL address is used by direct connected nei=
ghbor.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For the neighbor which is not direct connected=
, the wider range address should be used.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sandy
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Gengxues=
ong(GengXuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com <mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com> =
<mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com <mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com>>>
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=
=E5=BE=8100007940;6man@ietf.org <mailto:00007940%3B6man@ietf.org> <mailto=
:6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>> <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.o=
rg> <mailto:6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>>;
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=
=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A511:03
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: Re:BIER in I=
Pv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04*
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bieri=
n6:
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have some questions about the section 2 when=
 reading the draft. It is mentioned that:
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6=
 header SHOULD be the neighbor's link-local address.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be=
 the BIER prefix of the BFR neighbor.=E2=80=9D
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Seems like the draft proposes 2 methods of IPv=
6 header encapsulation.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, wh=
at's the use case and design consideration for each method?
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best Regards
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Xuesong
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:*ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mai=
lto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bou=
nces@ietf.org>>]*On Behalf Of *zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhang.zheng=
@zte.com.cn> <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.c=
n>>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* 6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <ma=
ilto:6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bie=
r-bierin6-04
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bier=
in6-04), before you read the draft, please let me introduce BIER technolo=
gy to you at first:
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER technology, as defined in RFC8279, it's a=
 new multicast technology. The principle is achieving multicast forwardin=
g by hop-by-hop execution.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER is a transport protocol, not just a funct=
ion. As defined in RFC8296, BIER has it's own ethernet encapsulation with=
 ethernet type 0xAB37, and also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation=
=2E
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER has it's own OAM function, ECMP function =
and traceability. etc. through BIER header defined in RFC8296.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For travelling through IPv6 only enviroment, w=
e'd like to travel BIER packet by IPv6 encapsulation.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want to jus=
t use a new Next Header type for BIER header carrying.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We want to bring the minimum impact on IPv6 ex=
isted execution, and the maximum flexibility for header interoperability.=

>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So if you have any question about draft-zhang-=
bier-bierin6-04, or about BIER technology itself, please tell me. I'am gl=
ad to explain them to you.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sandy
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TonyPrzy=
gienda <tonysietf@gmail.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com> <mailto:tonysiet=
f@gmail.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>>
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Michael =
McBride <michael.mcbride@futurewei.com <mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.=
com> <mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com <mailto:michael.mcbride@future=
wei.com>>>;
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6man@iet=
f.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <mailto:6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>=
> <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <mailto:6man@ietf.org <mailto:6ma=
n@ietf.org>>>;
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=
=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A501:12
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: BIER in IPv6=
*
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0----------------------------------------------=
----------------------
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF=C2=A0IPv6=C2=A0working=C2=A0group=C2=A0ma=
iling=C2=A0list
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> <mailto:i=
pv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative=C2=A0Requests:=C2=A0https://www=
=2Eietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0----------------------------------------------=
----------------------
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<BIER WG chair hat on>
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The specific ask here is for the 6man to look =
over both drafts, i.e.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and verify whether they conform to published I=
Pv6 standards or raise objections/concerns.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The requirements document is currently under a=
ctive work/comments and does not represent any final or wide-consensus st=
ate so an opinion on its state is appreciated but it should not be used a=
s any final or binding list of requirements as to the targeted solution i=
n BIER WG
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thanks
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--- tony
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBrid=
e <michael.mcbride@futurewei.com <mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com> <=
mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com <mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.co=
m>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello,
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The bier wg could use your ipv6 =
recommendations. We=E2=80=99ve worked on various solutions to transport a=
 bier header in ipv6. We decided to pause and create a requirements docum=
ent (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to help steer us towards the righ=
t solution(s). In that drafts appendix we have a fairly good summary of t=
he various solutions.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We=E2=80=99ve started to rally b=
ehind two solutions which meet the majority of the requirements: draft-xi=
e-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (bier header in ipv6 EH) and draft-zhang-bier-b=
ierin6 (bier header as payload using ipv6 NH). The bier chairs today aske=
d to punt the bierv6 topic to 6man for advice before adopting any of thes=
e solutions.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So here we are seeking your advi=
ce. The most simple approach would probably be to give =C2=A0https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/ a look and scroll=
 down to the appendix to see a summary of the various solutions we=E2=80=99=
ve been considering.
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thanks!
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mike
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--------------------------------=
------------------------------------
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF IPv6 working group mailing =
list
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.=
org> <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative Requests: https:/=
/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--------------------------------=
------------------------------------
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
>     >
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0----------------------------------------------=
----------------------
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> <mailto:i=
pv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>     >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0----------------------------------------------=
----------------------
>     >
>     >
>     > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>     > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     > ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>     > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ip=
v6
>     > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>     >
>=20
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>     IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>     ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>     Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6=

>     -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20


From nobody Tue Mar 24 17:36:38 2020
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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 20:35:53 -0400
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To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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--000000000000a8a36805a1a30d10
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Tony & Sandy

So is the idea proposed in the two drafts mentioned for BIER IPv6 support
of encoding the BIER header up to 256 bit mask for BFER encoding schema
supporting up to I believe 128 BFERs per set - to encode the BIER header
into the DO EH -  and then for directly connected neighbor the outer header
IPv6 encapsulation 1 hop tunnel used link local source and destination -
for non directly connected neighbors IPv6 encapsulation use multi hop
tunnel with GUI SA and DA.  In both tunnel cases being mutually exclusive
the link local tunnel would have TTL 1 and multi hop would have appropriate
 >1 ttl.

So this is 2 different solutions for 2 different use cases.  Correct?

Just as with BIER IPv4 with BIER IPv6, the IGP extensions would flood the
BIER info to build BIFT forwarding table to build the stateless MDT trees.

In the case of SRv6 with disjoint BIER where traffic steering is required
to signal SRV6 topology the last header would be set to TBD.  So that last
header would in non SRv6 IPv6 topology the Last header would be the DO EH
with the BIER header encoded. So with SRv6 how is the BIER header encoded?


For SRv6 support I am guessing we have to update the programming draft for
an end type sid instantiation flavor variation for a new BIER SID?

I am just thinking comparing BIER for v4 to BIER for v6 is there any way
you could accomplish the same with v6 and not do any IPv6 tunneling and
just add the L 2 1/2 BIER header and propagate the BIER header info into
the IGP to build the BIFT forwarding table just as you do with BIER v4.

I can see for egress node BFER support the intermediate nodes and maybe
even end  node may not have to support BIER - but now if tunneling is used.


Is that the business justification for tunneling or maybe some other reason
intrinsic to IPv6 I am missing.

Am I totally off base??


Gyan

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 11:24 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> That's a currently ongoing discussions between the auhtors (cc:'ing bier
> as well)
>
> LL has advantages
> * the packet cannot "escape" even if it has TTL > 1
> * such a scheme can work purely with ND
> * it's hard to "send out the wrong interface" albeit v6 allows AFAIR to
> have same link local on multiple interfaces
>
> Originally the draft did not even allow for global addressing (since we
> want to use v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS & non-MPLS
> encapsulations are used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of
> allowing to "jump over non-BIER routers" if addressed to bier prefix (whi=
ch
> I personally think should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise w=
e
> may end up with BIER frames in funky places and possible "holes" in the
> replication fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it's not necessary since
> BIER can be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels  but bunch of
> co-auhtors joined and the consensus was to allow it
>
> --- tony
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:15 PM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
>
>> Hi Xuesong,
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your question!
>>
>> The LL address is used by direct connected neighbor.
>>
>> For the neighbor which is not direct connected, the wider range address
>> should be used.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sandy
>>
>>
>> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Gengxuesong(GengXuesong) <gengxueso=
ng@huawei.com>
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;6man@ie=
tf.org <6man@ietf.org>;
>> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 11:03
>> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**RE: Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier=
-bierin6-04*
>>
> Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6:
>>
>>
>>
>> I have some questions about the section 2 when reading the draft. It is
>> mentioned that:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 header SHOULD be the neig=
hbor's
>> link-local address.
>>
>> Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be the BIER prefix of the BF=
R
>> neighbor.=E2=80=9D
>>
>> Seems like the draft proposes 2 methods of IPv6 header encapsulation.
>>
>> Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, what's the use case and
>> design consideration for each method?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Xuesong
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org]*On Behalf Of *
>> zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM
>> *To:* 6man@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
>>
>>
>>
> Hi,
>>
>> As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04), before you read
>> the draft, please let me introduce BIER technology to you at first:
>>
>> BIER technology, as defined in RFC8279, it's a new multicast technology.
>> The principle is achieving multicast forwarding by hop-by-hop execution.
>>
>> BIER is a transport protocol, not just a function. As defined in RFC8296=
,
>> BIER has it's own ethernet encapsulation with ethernet type 0xAB37, and
>> also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation.
>>
>> BIER has it's own OAM function, ECMP function and traceability. etc.
>> through BIER header defined in RFC8296.
>>
>>
>>
>> For travelling through IPv6 only enviroment, we'd like to travel BIER
>> packet by IPv6 encapsulation.
>>
>> In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want to just use a new Next Header
>> type for BIER header carrying.
>>
>> We want to bring the minimum impact on IPv6 existed execution, and the
>> maximum flexibility for header interoperability.
>>
>> So if you have any question about draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, or about
>> BIER technology itself, please tell me. I'am glad to explain them to you=
.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sandy
>>
>>
>>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TonyPrzygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com=
>
>>
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@f=
uturewei.com>;
>>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6man@ietf..org <6man@ietf.org> <6ma=
n@ietf.org>;
>>
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5 01:12
>>
>> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: BIER in IPv6*
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> <BIER WG chair hat on>
>>
>>
>>
>> The specific ask here is for the 6man to look over both drafts, i.e.
>>
>>
>>
>> draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
>>
>>
>>
>> and
>>
>>
>>
>> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
>>
>>
>>
>> and verify whether they conform to published IPv6 standards or raise
>> objections/concerns.
>>
>>
>>
>> The requirements document is currently under active work/comments and
>> does not represent any final or wide-consensus state so an opinion on it=
s
>> state is appreciated but it should not be used as any final or binding l=
ist
>> of requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG
>>
>>
>>
>> thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> --- tony
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride <
>> michael.mcbride@futurewei.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>>
>> The bier wg could use your ipv6 recommendations. We=E2=80=99ve worked on=
 various
>> solutions to transport a bier header in ipv6. We decided to pause and
>> create a requirements document (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to he=
lp
>> steer us towards the right solution(s). In that drafts appendix we have =
a
>> fairly good summary of the various solutions.
>>
>>
>>
>> We=E2=80=99ve started to rally behind two solutions which meet the major=
ity of
>> the requirements: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (bier header in ipv6
>> EH) and draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 (bier header as payload using ipv6 NH).
>> The bier chairs today asked to punt the bierv6 topic to 6man for advice
>> before adopting any of these solutions.
>>
>>
>>
>> So here we are seeking your advice. The most simple approach would
>> probably be to give
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/ a
>> look and scroll down to the appendix to see a summary of the various
>> solutions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.
>>
>>
>>
>> thanks!
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
--=20

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div><div dir=3D"auto">Tony &amp; Sandy=C2=A0</div></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So is the idea proposed in the two drafts menti=
oned for BIER IPv6 support of encoding the BIER header up to 256 bit mask f=
or BFER encoding schema supporting up to I believe 128 BFERs per set - to e=
ncode the BIER header into the DO EH - =C2=A0and then for directly connecte=
d neighbor the outer header IPv6 encapsulation 1 hop tunnel used link local=
 source and destination - for non directly connected neighbors IPv6 encapsu=
lation use multi hop tunnel with GUI SA and DA.=C2=A0 In both tunnel cases =
being mutually exclusive the link local tunnel would have TTL 1 and multi h=
op would have appropriate =C2=A0&gt;1 ttl.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">So this is 2 different solutions for 2 different use cas=
es.=C2=A0 Correct?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Just =
as with BIER IPv4 with BIER IPv6, the IGP extensions would flood the BIER i=
nfo to build BIFT forwarding table to build the stateless MDT trees.</div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">In the case of SRv6 with disjo=
int BIER where traffic steering is required to signal SRV6 topology the las=
t header would be set to TBD.=C2=A0 So that last header would in non SRv6 I=
Pv6 topology the Last header would be the DO EH with the BIER header encode=
d. So with SRv6 how is the BIER header encoded?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">For SRv6 support I am g=
uessing we have to update the programming draft for an end type sid instant=
iation flavor variation for a new BIER SID?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">I am just thinking comparing BIER for v4 to BIER for v6=
 is there any way you could accomplish the same with v6 and not do any IPv6=
 tunneling and just add the L 2 1/2 BIER header and propagate the BIER head=
er info into the IGP to build the BIFT forwarding table just as you do with=
 BIER v4.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I can see for =
egress node BFER support the intermediate nodes and maybe even end =C2=A0no=
de may not have to support BIER - but now if tunneling is used. =C2=A0</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Is that the business justifi=
cation for tunneling or maybe some other reason intrinsic to IPv6 I am miss=
ing.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Am I totally off ba=
se??<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 11:24 PM Tony Przygienda &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>That&#39;s a c=
urrently ongoing discussions between the auhtors (cc:&#39;ing bier as well)=
</div><div><br></div><div>LL has advantages</div><div>* the packet cannot &=
quot;escape&quot; even if it has TTL &gt; 1</div><div>* such a scheme can w=
ork purely with ND</div><div>* it&#39;s hard to &quot;send out the wrong in=
terface&quot; albeit v6 allows AFAIR to have same link local on multiple in=
terfaces</div><div><br></div><div>Originally the draft did not even allow f=
or global addressing (since we want to use v6 as L2-substitute here just li=
ke MPLS &amp; non-MPLS encapsulations are used in BIER) but this has a nice=
 side effect of allowing to &quot;jump over non-BIER routers&quot; if addre=
ssed to bier prefix (which I personally think should be the only allowed gl=
obal v6 used, otherwise we may end up with BIER frames in funky places and =
possible &quot;holes&quot; in the replication fabric). Obviously strictly s=
peaking it&#39;s not necessary since BIER can be carried in plethora of nor=
mal unicast tunnels=C2=A0 but bunch of co-auhtors joined and the consensus =
was to allow it <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 22, 2020=
 at 8:15 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank"=
>zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div></div></blockq=
uote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Hi Xuesong,=
</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-=
size:14px;font-family:arial">Thank you for your question!</p><p style=3D"fo=
nt-size:14px;font-family:arial">The LL address is used by direct connected =
neighbor.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">For the neighbor=
 which is not direct connected, the wider range address should be used.</p>=
<p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size=
:14px;font-family:arial">Thanks,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:=
arial">Sandy</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><div>=
</div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><di=
v style=3D"width:100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:rgb(224=
,229,233);color:rgb(19,136,255);text-align:center">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=
=AE=E4=BB=B6</div><div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629=
398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-67410565211285=
55629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div style=3D"=
padding:8px;background-color:rgb(245,246,248)"><div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=
=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span>Gengxuesong(GengXuesong) &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">gengxuesong@huawei.com</a=
>&gt;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong=
><span style=3D"display:inline">=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;</span><span sty=
le=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6m=
an@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</=
strong><span>2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 11:03</span></div><div><st=
rong>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span><strong>RE: Re:BIER in IPv=
6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04</strong></span></div></div><div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"dis=
play:block"><div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwr=
iteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><=
div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryCon=
tainer"><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150=
%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Sandy and authors of dra=
ft-zhang-bier-bierin6:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">I have some questions about the =
section 2 when reading the draft. It is mentioned that:<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;col=
or:black" lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 hea=
der SHOULD be the neighbor&#39;s link-local address.<u></u><u></u></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black" lang=3D"EN-US">Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be the BI=
ER prefix of the BFR neighbor.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line=
-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=
=3D"EN-US">Seems like the draft proposes 2 methods of IPv6 header encapsula=
tion.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:1=
50%"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, what&=
#39;s the use case and design consideration for each method?<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-he=
ight:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"E=
N-US">Best Regards<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">Xuesong<u></=
u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN=
-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,=
125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></strong><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"> i=
pv6 [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6=
-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<strong>On Behalf Of </strong><a href=3D"mailto:zhang=
.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a><br><strong>=
Sent:</strong> Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM<br><strong>To:</strong> <a =
href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a><br><stron=
g>Subject:</strong> Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04<u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-67410565211=
28555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><=
div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-67410565211=
28555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><=
div><div><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04), before yo=
u read the draft, please let me introduce BIER technology to you at first:<=
u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER technology, as defined=
 in RFC8279, it&#39;s a new multicast technology. The principle is achievin=
g multicast forwarding by hop-by-hop execution.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER is a transport protocol, not just a function. As =
defined in RFC8296, BIER has it&#39;s own ethernet encapsulation with ether=
net type 0xAB37, and also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER has it&#39;s own OAM functio=
n, ECMP function and traceability. etc. through BIER header defined in RFC8=
296.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">For travelling through IPv6 only enviromen=
t, we&#39;d like to travel BIER packet by IPv6 encapsulation.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want =
to just use a new Next Header type for BIER header carrying.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">We want to bring the minimum impact on IP=
v6 existed execution, and the maximum flexibility for header interoperabili=
ty.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">So if you have any ques=
tion about draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, or about BIER technology itself, pl=
ease tell me. I&#39;am glad to explain them to you.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sandy<u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&=
quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><=
div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_751484=
6100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;line-height:21pt;background:=
rgb(224,229,233) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"color:rgb(19,136,=
255)">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></=
u></span></span></p><div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_75148461005416=
29398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><=
div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7=
514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div><div><div><di=
v><div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistory=
Container"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(24=
5,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=
=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US">TonyPrzygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span></span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A<=
/span></strong><span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Michael McBride &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.mcbride@futur=
ewei.com</a>&gt;;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block=
"><div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistory=
Container"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div id=3D"m_-674105652112855=
5629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0=
% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=8A=84=E9=
=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=
=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf..org</a> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-6741056521=
128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><div id=3D"m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_75148461005416=
29398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=
=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</span></s=
trong><span lang=3D"EN-US">2020</span>=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">03</spa=
n>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">19</span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US"> 01:=
12<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"backg=
round:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A<span lang=3D"EN-=
US">Re: BIER in IPv6</span></span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
bottom:12pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----------------------------------------=
---------------------------<br>IETF=C2=A0IPv6=C2=A0working=C2=A0group=C2=A0=
mailing=C2=A0list<br><a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv=
6@ietf.org</a><br>Administrative=C2=A0Requests:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>-------------------------------------------------=
-------------------<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&lt;BIER WG chair hat on&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p=
></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The specific ask he=
re is for the 6man to look over both drafts, i.e.<u></u><u></u></span></p><=
/div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-zhang-bier-bier=
in6<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D=
"EN-US">and<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation<u></u><u></u></span></p><=
/div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">and verify whether th=
ey conform to published IPv6 standards or raise objections/concerns.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Th=
e requirements document is currently under active work/comments and does no=
t represent any final or wide-consensus state so an opinion on its state is=
 appreciated but it should not be used as any final or binding list
 of requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG<u></u><u></u></span=
></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">thanks<u></u><u=
></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">--=
- tony<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.m=
cbride@futurewei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><blockquo=
te style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204=
,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1=
pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hello,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The bier wg could use your ipv6 r=
ecommendations. We=E2=80=99ve worked on various solutions to transport a bi=
er header in ipv6. We decided to pause and create a requirements
 document (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to help steer us towards the =
right solution(s). In that drafts appendix we have a fairly good summary of=
 the various solutions.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">We=E2=80=99ve started to rally behind two solutions which =
meet the majority of the requirements: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (b=
ier header in ipv6 EH) and draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
 (bier header as payload using ipv6 NH). The bier chairs today asked to pun=
t the bierv6 topic to 6man for advice before adopting any of these solution=
s.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So =
here we are seeking your advice. The most simple approach would probably be=
 to give =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-=
ipv6-requirements/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/</a>
 a look and scroll down to the appendix to see a summary of the various sol=
utions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">thanks!<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mike<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(47,84,150)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">------------------------------------------------=
--------------------<br>IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br><a href=3D"=
mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>Administrative=
 Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>----------------=
----------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></=
p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div><p><br></p></div>------------------------------------------------=
--------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font si=
ze=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=
=C2=A0 Mishra</font></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" colo=
r=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=
=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" =
face=3D"georgia, serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><fon=
t size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20=
904</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" fac=
e=3D"georgia, serif">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D=
"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.=
com</a></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000a8a36805a1a30d10--


From nobody Wed Mar 25 07:32:21 2020
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Subject: [Bier] bier - New Interim Meeting Request
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A new interim meeting request has just been submitted by Greg Shepherd.

This request requires approval by the Area Director of the Routing Area

The meeting can be approved here: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim/request/interim-2020-bier-01



---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Greg Shepherd

Meeting Type: Virtual Meeting

Session 1:

Date: 2020-04-14
Start Time: 08:00 America/Los_Angeles
Duration: 00:30
Remote Participation Information: Remote participation information will be obtained at the time of approval
Agenda Note: 

---------------------------------------------------------



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Subject: [Bier] Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-14
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The Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) Working Group will hold
a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-14 from 08:00 to 08:30 America/Los_Angeles (15:00 to 15:30 UTC).

Agenda:
Agenda, Notewell - Chairs, 5mins
draft-ietf-bier-te-arch - Toerless Eckert, 10 min
draft-ietf-bier-mld-04 - Stig Venaas, 5 min

Information about remote participation:
Remote participation information will be obtained at the time of approval


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References: <CABNhwV0G945UCHN=tTqsGM99-vqSCUzFMeFbk0MkgDrR3DyyXw@mail.gmail.com> <202003261608135174458@zte.com.cn>
In-Reply-To: <202003261608135174458@zte.com.cn>
From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 05:09:23 -0400
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To: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn
Cc: 6man@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org, tonysietf@gmail.com
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/4gVk6kjRJ4xfOeb6Hl_rw1lGC84>
Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:08 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi Gyan,
>
>
> Thank you very much for your comments!
>
> Sorry for the late response.
>
> Please find my answer with [Sandy] inline. :-)
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandy
>
>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*GyanMishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.co=
m>;
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6MAN <6man@ietf.org>;BIER WG <bier@=
ietf.org>;=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8825=E6=97=A5 08:36
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bie=
rin6-04*
> Tony & Sandy
>
> So is the idea proposed in the two drafts mentioned for BIER IPv6 support
> of encoding the BIER header up to 256 bit mask for BFER encoding schema
> supporting up to I believe 128 BFERs per set - to encode the BIER header
> into the DO EH -  and then for directly connected neighbor the outer head=
er
> IPv6 encapsulation 1 hop tunnel used link local source and destination -
> for non directly connected neighbors IPv6 encapsulation use multi hop
> tunnel with GUI SA and DA.  In both tunnel cases being mutually exclusive
> the link local tunnel would have TTL 1 and multi hop would have appropria=
te
>  >1 ttl.
>
> So this is 2 different solutions for 2 different use cases.  Correct?
>
> [Sandy]: Sorry. No. The two solutions are used to solve one use case. And
> there is no relationship between the Bitstringlength in BIER header and t=
he
> position in IPv6 header.
>
    Gyan> Ok.  The one use case is for being able to tunnel over hardware
not supporting BIER and so for that you have the two tunnel options.  The
two tunnel types are link local or GUA and both are multi hop tunnels -
Correct?

> If all the routers support ethernet type 0xAB37, the ethernet
> encapsulation will be used for BIER forwarding without IPv6 encapsulation=
.
>
But in fact, it takes time that all types of silicon chip to support BIER
> ethernet encapsulation. In the network which is IPv6-only, there are stil=
l
> some routers can't support BIER ethernet recognition.
>
> For these router which can support BIER forwarding in "software layer",
> not in "silicon layer", we need IPv6 encapsulation for BIER travelling.
>
> But some routers may not even support BIER forwarding in "software layer"
> (section 6.9, RFC8279), in order to travel across the these routers, tunn=
el
> with wider range address than LL is used.
>
> Gyan> So the crux of the issue is it may take some time for hardware to
> catch up to support BIER forwarding.
>
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Just as with BIER IPv4 with BIER IPv6, the IGP extensions would flood the
> BIER info to build BIFT forwarding table to build the stateless MDT trees=
.
> In the case of SRv6 with disjoint BIER where traffic steering is required
> to signal SRV6 topology the last header would be set to TBD.  So that las=
t
> header would in non SRv6 IPv6 topology the Last header would be the DO EH
> with the BIER header encoded. So with SRv6 how is the BIER header encoded=
?
> For SRv6 support I am guessing we have to update the programming draft fo=
r
> an end type sid instantiation flavor variation for a new BIER SID?
>
> [Sandy]: In fact, there is no relationship with SRv6 and BIER. But
> definitely they can be used together.
>
>    Gyan>. Understood

> I think you mean that we travel BIER packet across the non-BIER-capable
> routers with SRv6 forwarding, right?
>

     Gyan> Correct.

> In this case, the encapsulated packet is: IPv6 header+SRH EH+BIER
> header+payload.
>
> The only thing we need to do is define a new BIER EH. So in the Next
> header field of SRH, the BIER EH type indicates that there is a BIER pack=
et
> which follows SRH.
>
    Gyan> Understood

> When the packet arrives the BIER-capable router which is also the last
> Segment in SRH, the BIER header will be executed correctly.
>
> So there is no need to apply for a new function for this case.
>
> Gyan> so then no update necessary for Programming draft.
>
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> I am just thinking comparing BIER for v4 to BIER for v6 is there any way
> you could accomplish the same with v6 and not do any IPv6 tunneling and
> just add the L 2 1/2 BIER header and propagate the BIER header info into
> the IGP to build the BIFT forwarding table just as you do with BIER v4.
> I can see for egress node BFER support the intermediate nodes and maybe
> even end  node may not have to support BIER - but now if tunneling is use=
d.
>
> Is that the business justification for tunneling or maybe some other
> reason intrinsic to IPv6 I am missing.
> Am I totally off base??
>
> [Sandy]: Yes. If all the silicon chips support BIER ethernet recognition
> in the network, we do not need any tunneling.
>

    Gyan> Makes sense

> The IPv4/IPv6 BFR-prefix flooding in IGP is used to build BIER forwarding
> table. Tunnel is only used for travel across the non-BIER-capable router.
>

   Gyan> Understood

>
> Gyan
>
> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 11:24 PM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> That's a currently ongoing discussions between the auhtors (cc:'ing bier
>> as well)
>>
>> LL has advantages
>> * the packet cannot "escape" even if it has TTL > 1
>> * such a scheme can work purely with ND
>> * it's hard to "send out the wrong interface" albeit v6 allows AFAIR to
>> have same link local on multiple interfaces
>>
>> Originally the draft did not even allow for global addressing (since we
>> want to use v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS & non-MPLS
>> encapsulations are used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of
>> allowing to "jump over non-BIER routers" if addressed to bier prefix (wh=
ich
>> I personally think should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise =
we
>> may end up with BIER frames in funky places and possible "holes" in the
>> replication fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it's not necessary sinc=
e
>> BIER can be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels  but bunch of
>> co-auhtors joined and the consensus was to allow it
>>
>> --- tony
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:15 PM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Xuesong,
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for your question!
>>>
>>> The LL address is used by direct connected neighbor.
>>>
>>> For the neighbor which is not direct connected, the wider range address
>>> should be used.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Sandy
>>>
>>>
>>> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Gengxuesong(GengXuesong) <gengxues=
ong@huawei.com>
>>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;6man@i=
etf.org <6man@ietf.org>;
>>> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 11:0=
3
>>> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**RE: Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bie=
r-bierin6-04*
>>>
>> Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have some questions about the section 2 when reading the draft. It is
>>> mentioned that:
>>>
>>> =E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 header SHOULD be the nei=
ghbor's
>>> link-local address.
>>>
>>> Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be the BIER prefix of the
>>> BFR neighbor.=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>> Seems like the draft proposes 2 methods of IPv6 header encapsulation.
>>>
>>> Could these 2 methods be combined ? If not, what's the use case and
>>> design consideration for each method?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>>
>>> Xuesong
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org]*On Behalf Of *
>>> zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM
>>> *To:* 6man@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Hi,
>>>
>>> As co-author of BIERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04), before you read
>>> the draft, please let me introduce BIER technology to you at first:
>>>
>>> BIER technology, as defined in RFC8279, it's a new multicast technology=
.
>>> The principle is achieving multicast forwarding by hop-by-hop execution=
.
>>>
>>> BIER is a transport protocol, not just a function. As defined in
>>> RFC8296, BIER has it's own ethernet encapsulation with ethernet type
>>> 0xAB37, and also it can be travelled by MPLS encapsulation.
>>>
>>> BIER has it's own OAM function, ECMP function and traceability. etc.
>>> through BIER header defined in RFC8296.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For travelling through IPv6 only enviroment, we'd like to travel BIER
>>> packet by IPv6 encapsulation.
>>>
>>> In draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want to just use a new Next Header
>>> type for BIER header carrying.
>>>
>>> We want to bring the minimum impact on IPv6 existed execution, and the
>>> maximum flexibility for header interoperability.
>>>
>>> So if you have any question about draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, or about
>>> BIER technology itself, please tell me. I'am glad to explain them to yo=
u.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Sandy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TonyPrzygienda <tonysietf@gmail.co=
m>
>>>
>>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@=
futurewei.com>;
>>>
>> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6man@ietf.org <6man@ietf.org>;
>>>
>> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5 01:12
>>>
>>> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARe: BIER in IPv6*
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> <BIER WG chair hat on>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The specific ask here is for the 6man to look over both drafts, i.e.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and verify whether they conform to published IPv6 standards or raise
>>> objections/concerns.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The requirements document is currently under active work/comments and
>>> does not represent any final or wide-consensus state so an opinion on i=
ts
>>> state is appreciated but it should not be used as any final or binding =
list
>>> of requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride <
>>> michael.mcbride@futurewei.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The bier wg could use your ipv6 recommendations. We=E2=80=99ve worked o=
n various
>>> solutions to transport a bier header in ipv6. We decided to pause and
>>> create a requirements document (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to h=
elp
>>> steer us towards the right solution(s). In that drafts appendix we have=
 a
>>> fairly good summary of the various solutions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We=E2=80=99ve started to rally behind two solutions which meet the majo=
rity of
>>> the requirements: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (bier header in ipv=
6
>>> EH) and draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 (bier header as payload using ipv6 NH)=
.
>>> The bier chairs today asked to punt the bierv6 topic to 6man for advice
>>> before adopting any of these solutions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So here we are seeking your advice. The most simple approach would
>>> probably be to give
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/ a
>>> look and scroll down to the appendix to see a summary of the various
>>> solutions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks!
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
> --
>
> Gyan  Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com
>
>
>
>
> --

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology

Verizon

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

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<div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:08 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang=
.zheng@zte.com.cn">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Hi=
 Gyan,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D=
"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thank you very much for your comments!</=
p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Sorry for the late response=
.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Please find my answer wi=
th [Sandy] inline. :-)</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br=
></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thanks,</p><p style=3D"f=
ont-size:14px;font-family:arial">Sandy</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-f=
amily:arial"><br></p><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div style=3D"width:=
100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:#e0e5e9;color:#1388ff;te=
xt-align:center">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6</div><div id=3D"m_-58=
81655483207621487zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div style=3D"padding:8px;bac=
kground-color:#f5f6f8"><div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</s=
trong><span>GyanMishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span style=3D"display:inline">Tony =
Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ton=
ysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=
=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span style=3D"display:inline">6MAN &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span><span sty=
le=3D"display:inline">BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span><span style=3D"display:inline">=E5=
=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;</span></div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=
=BC=9A</strong><span>2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8825=E6=97=A5 08:36</span></div>=
<div><strong>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</strong><span><strong>Re: BIER i=
n IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04</strong></span></div></div><div><div=
><div dir=3D"auto">Tony &amp; Sandy=C2=A0</div></div><br><div dir=3D"auto">=
So is the idea proposed in the two drafts mentioned for BIER IPv6 support o=
f encoding the BIER header up to 256 bit mask for BFER encoding schema supp=
orting up to I believe 128 BFERs per set - to encode the BIER header into t=
he DO EH - =C2=A0and then for directly connected neighbor the outer header =
IPv6 encapsulation 1 hop tunnel used link local source and destination - fo=
r non directly connected neighbors IPv6 encapsulation use multi hop tunnel =
with GUI SA and DA.=C2=A0 In both tunnel cases being mutually exclusive the=
 link local tunnel would have TTL 1 and multi hop would have appropriate =
=C2=A0&gt;1 ttl.</div><p>So this is 2 different solutions for 2 different u=
se cases.=C2=A0 Correct?</p><p>[Sandy]: Sorry. No. The two solutions are us=
ed to solve one use case. And there is no relationship between the Bitstrin=
glength in BIER header and the position in IPv6 header.</p></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan&gt; O=
k.=C2=A0 The one use case is for being able to tunnel over hardware not sup=
porting BIER and so for that you have the two tunnel options.=C2=A0 The two=
 tunnel types are link local or GUA and both are multi hop tunnels - Correc=
t?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"displa=
y:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div=
><p></p><p>If all the routers support ethernet type 0xAB37, the ethernet en=
capsulation will be used for BIER forwarding without IPv6 encapsulation.</p=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621=
487zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><p></p><p>But in fact, it takes time t=
hat all types of silicon chip to support BIER ethernet encapsulation. In th=
e network which is IPv6-only, there are still some routers can&#39;t suppor=
t BIER ethernet recognition.=C2=A0</p><p>For these router which can support=
 BIER forwarding in &quot;software layer&quot;, not in &quot;silicon layer&=
quot;,<span style=3D"line-height:21px">=C2=A0we need IPv6 encapsulation for=
 BIER travelling.</span></p><p>But some routers may not even support BIER f=
orwarding in &quot;software layer&quot; (section 6.9, RFC8279), in order to=
 travel across the these routers, tunnel with wider range address than LL i=
s used.</p><p>Gyan&gt; So the crux of the issue is it may take some time fo=
r hardware to catch up to support BIER forwarding.</p><p>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</p><div dir=3D"auto">Just as wit=
h BIER IPv4 with BIER IPv6, the IGP extensions would flood the BIER info to=
 build BIFT forwarding table to build the stateless MDT trees.</div><div di=
r=3D"auto">In the case of SRv6 with disjoint BIER where traffic steering is=
 required to signal SRV6 topology the last header would be set to TBD.=C2=
=A0 So that last header would in non SRv6 IPv6 topology the Last header wou=
ld be the DO EH with the BIER header encoded. So with SRv6 how is the BIER =
header encoded?</div><div dir=3D"auto">For SRv6 support I am guessing we ha=
ve to update the programming draft for an end type sid instantiation flavor=
 variation for a new BIER SID?</div><p>[Sandy]: In fact, there is no relati=
onship with SRv6 and BIER. But definitely they can be used together.=C2=A0<=
/p><p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto=
">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan&gt;. Understood=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487=
zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><p>I think you mean that we travel BIER p=
acket across the non-BIER-capable routers with SRv6 forwarding, right?=C2=
=A0</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan&gt; Correct.</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D=
"m_-5881655483207621487zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><p></p><p>In this =
case, the encapsulated packet is: IPv6 header+SRH EH+<span style=3D"line-he=
ight:21px">BIER header+payload.=C2=A0</span></p><p><span style=3D"line-heig=
ht:21px">The only thing we need to do is define a new BIER EH. So in the Ne=
xt header field of SRH, the BIER EH type indicates that there is a BIER pac=
ket which follows SRH.=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan&gt; Understood=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div=
 id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><p><span sty=
le=3D"line-height:21px"></span></p><p><span style=3D"line-height:21px">When=
 the packet arrives the BIER-capable router which is also the last Segment =
in SRH, the BIER header will be executed correctly.=C2=A0</span></p><p><spa=
n style=3D"line-height:21px">So there is no need to apply for a new functio=
n for this case.</span></p><p>Gyan&gt; so then no update necessary for Prog=
ramming draft.</p><p>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
</p><div dir=3D"auto">I am just thinking comparing BIER for v4 to BIER for =
v6 is there any way you could accomplish the same with v6 and not do any IP=
v6 tunneling and just add the L 2 1/2 BIER header and propagate the BIER he=
ader info into the IGP to build the BIFT forwarding table just as you do wi=
th BIER v4.</div><div dir=3D"auto">I can see for egress node BFER support t=
he intermediate nodes and maybe even end =C2=A0node may not have to support=
 BIER - but now if tunneling is used. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">Is that=
 the business justification for tunneling or maybe some other reason intrin=
sic to IPv6 I am missing.</div><div dir=3D"auto">Am I totally off base??<br=
></div><p>[Sandy]: Yes. If all the silicon chips support BIER ethernet reco=
gnition in the network, we do not need any tunneling.</p></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan&gt; Makes sense=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-588165548320762148=
7zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><p></p><p>The IPv4/IPv6 BFR-prefix flood=
ing in IGP is used to build BIER forwarding table. Tunnel is only used for =
travel across the non-BIER-capable router.</p></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Gyan&gt; Understood=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><d=
iv><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487zwriteHist=
oryContainer"><div><div><br><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487zwriteHistory=
Container"><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 11:24 PM Tony Przygienda &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><d=
iv><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487zwriteHist=
oryContainer"><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487zwr=
iteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>That&#39;s a currently ongoing dis=
cussions between the auhtors (cc:&#39;ing bier as well)</div><br><div>LL ha=
s advantages</div><div>* the packet cannot &quot;escape&quot; even if it ha=
s TTL &gt; 1</div><div>* such a scheme can work purely with ND</div><div>* =
it&#39;s hard to &quot;send out the wrong interface&quot; albeit v6 allows =
AFAIR to have same link local on multiple interfaces</div><br><div>Original=
ly the draft did not even allow for global addressing (since we want to use=
 v6 as L2-substitute here just like MPLS &amp; non-MPLS encapsulations are =
used in BIER) but this has a nice side effect of allowing to &quot;jump ove=
r non-BIER routers&quot; if addressed to bier prefix (which I personally th=
ink should be the only allowed global v6 used, otherwise we may end up with=
 BIER frames in funky places and possible &quot;holes&quot; in the replicat=
ion fabric). Obviously strictly speaking it&#39;s not necessary since BIER =
can be carried in plethora of normal unicast tunnels=C2=A0 but bunch of co-=
auhtors joined and the consensus was to allow it <br></div><br><div>--- ton=
y <br></div><br><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:15 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:z=
hang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></bloc=
kquote><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Hi Xuesong,</=
p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-si=
ze:14px;font-family:arial">Thank you for your question!</p><p style=3D"font=
-size:14px;font-family:arial">The LL address is used by direct connected ne=
ighbor.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">For the neighbor w=
hich is not direct connected, the wider range address should be used.</p><p=
 style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:1=
4px;font-family:arial">Thanks,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:ar=
ial">Sandy</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p></div><=
/blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div style=3D"wi=
dth:100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:rgb(224,229,233);col=
or:rgb(19,136,255);text-align:center">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6<=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display=
:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514=
846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div style=3D"padding:8px;backg=
round-color:rgb(245,246,248)"><div><strong>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=
=BC=9A</strong>Gengxuesong(GengXuesong) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gengxuesong@h=
uawei.com" target=3D"_blank">gengxuesong@huawei.com</a>&gt;</div><div><stro=
ng>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</strong><span style=3D"display:inli=
ne">=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;</span><span style=3D"display:inline"><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span></=
div><div><strong>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</strong>2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=
=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 11:03</div><div><strong>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</st=
rong><strong>RE: Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04</strong></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"di=
splay:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m=
_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line=
-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=
=3D"EN-US">Hi Sandy and authors of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6:</span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"=
 lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-heigh=
t:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">I have some questions =
about the section 2 when reading the draft. It is mentioned that:</span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:b=
lack" lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CIf... The destination address in IPv6 header =
SHOULD be the neighbor&#39;s link-local address.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-heig=
ht:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-=
US">Otherwise... the destination address SHOULD be the BIER prefix of the B=
FR neighbor.=E2=80=9D</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height=
:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">Seems like the draft pr=
oposes 2 methods of IPv6 header encapsulation.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Could these 2 methods =
be combined ? If not, what&#39;s the use case and design consideration for =
each method?</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"line-height:150%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-hei=
ght:150%;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN=
-US">Best Regards</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150=
%"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">Xuesong</span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></strong><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-U=
S"> ipv6 [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>ipv6-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<strong>On Behalf Of </strong><a href=3D"mailto:=
zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a><br><st=
rong>Sent:</strong> Saturday, March 21, 2020 1:43 PM<br><strong>To:</strong=
> <a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org</a><br><=
strong>Subject:</strong> Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04</s=
pan></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"=
display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487m_-6741056521128555629gmail=
-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div><div><p><=
span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">As co-author of B=
IERin6 (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04), before you read the draft, please let=
 me introduce BIER technology to you at first:</span></p><p><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">BIER technology, as defined in RFC8279, it&#39;s a new multicast tech=
nology. The principle is achieving multicast forwarding by hop-by-hop execu=
tion.</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER is a transport protocol, not j=
ust a function. As defined in RFC8296, BIER has it&#39;s own ethernet encap=
sulation with ethernet type 0xAB37, and also it can be travelled by MPLS en=
capsulation.</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">BIER has it&#39;s own OAM fu=
nction, ECMP function and traceability. etc. through BIER header defined in=
 RFC8296.</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">For travelling through IPv6 only enviroment, we&#39;d like to tr=
avel BIER packet by IPv6 encapsulation.</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=
n draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, we want to just use a new Next Header type f=
or BIER header carrying.</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">We want to bring=
 the minimum impact on IPv6 existed execution, and the maximum flexibility =
for header interoperability.</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">So if you ha=
ve any question about draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04, or about BIER technology=
 itself, please tell me. I&#39;am glad to explain them to you.</span></p><p=
><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,</spa=
n></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sandy</span></p><p><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span=
></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-58816554832076214=
87m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer">=
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-ali=
gn:center;line-height:21pt;background:rgb(224,229,233) none repeat scroll 0=
% 0%"><span style=3D"color:rgb(19,136,255)">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=
=BB=B6<span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></span></p></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487m_-674105652112855562=
9gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div><di=
v><div><div><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_=
7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><stron=
g><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=
=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US">TonyPrzygienda &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=
=BC=9A</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US">Michael McBride &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.mcbride@futu=
rewei.com</a>&gt;;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487z=
writeHistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_=
-5881655483207621487m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwrite=
HistoryContainer"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div id=3D"m_-58816554=
83207621487m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryCo=
ntainer"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,=
246,248) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=
=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf=
.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div>=
<div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-5881655483207621487zwriteHi=
storyContainer"><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=3D"m_-588165=
5483207621487m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistory=
Container"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div id=3D"m_-588165548320762=
1487m_-6741056521128555629gmail-m_7514846100541629398zwriteHistoryContainer=
"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248=
) none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=
=BD=93">=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</span></strong><span lang=3D"EN-US">2=
020</span>=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">03</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-=
US">19</span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US"> 01:12</span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:rgb(245,246,248) none repeat scroll =
0% 0%"><strong><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=B8=BB =E9=
=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A<span lang=3D"EN-US">Re: BIER in IPv6</span></span></strong=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">----------------------=
----------------------------------------------<br>IETF=C2=A0IPv6=C2=A0worki=
ng=C2=A0group=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list<br><a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>Administrative=C2=A0Requests:=C2=A0<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" target=3D"_blank">https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>------------------------------=
--------------------------------------</span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&lt;BIER WG chair hat on&gt;</span></p></div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The specific ask here is for the 6man to l=
ook over both drafts, i.e.</span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">draft-zhang-bier-bierin6</span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US">and</span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<=
/span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-xie-bier-i=
pv6-encapsulation</span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">=C2=A0</span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">and ve=
rify whether they conform to published IPv6 standards or raise objections/c=
oncerns.</span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0=
</span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The requirement=
s document is currently under active work/comments and does not represent a=
ny final or wide-consensus state so an opinion on its state is appreciated =
but it should not be used as any final or binding list
 of requirements as to the targeted solution in BIER WG</span></p></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">thanks</span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">--- tony</span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 9:20 PM Michael McBride &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.mcbride@futu=
rewei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-color:=
currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none n=
one none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6p=
t;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">Hello,</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The bier wg=
 could use your ipv6 recommendations. We=E2=80=99ve worked on various solut=
ions to transport a bier header in ipv6. We decided to pause and create a r=
equirements
 document (draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements) to help steer us towards the =
right solution(s). In that drafts appendix we have a fairly good summary of=
 the various solutions.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We=E2=80=99=
ve started to rally behind two solutions which meet the majority of the req=
uirements: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation (bier header in ipv6 EH) and d=
raft-zhang-bier-bierin6
 (bier header as payload using ipv6 NH). The bier chairs today asked to pun=
t the bierv6 topic to 6man for advice before adopting any of these solution=
s.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So here we are seeking your advi=
ce. The most simple approach would probably be to give =C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/" target=3D=
"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements=
/</a>
 a look and scroll down to the appendix to see a summary of the various sol=
utions we=E2=80=99ve been considering.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US">thanks!</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">mike</spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(47,84,150)" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US">--------------------------------------------------------------------<br=
>IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>---------------------------------------=
-----------------------------</span></p></blockquote></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div><p><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br></p></div>------------------------=
--------------------------------------------<br>IETF IPv6 working group mai=
ling list<br><a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/ipv6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>------------------------------------------------=
--------------------<br></blockquote></div>--------------------------------=
------------------------------------<br>IETF IPv6 working group mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><b=
r>Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/ipv6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/ipv6</a><br>--------------------------------------------------------=
------------<br></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smart=
mail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><span =
style=3D"color:#000000">G</span><span style=3D"color:#000000">yan=C2=A0 Mis=
hra</span></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#000000;fo=
nt-family:georgia,serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=C2=A0</span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#000000;font-family:georgia,=
serif">Verizon=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
#000000;font-family:georgia,serif">Silver Spring, MD 20904</span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#000000;font-family:georgia,serif">Ph=
one: 301 502-1347</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#00=
0000;font-family:georgia,serif">Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@veri=
zon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br></p></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=
=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><font size=3D"1" color=
=3D"#000000">G</font><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000">yan=C2=A0 Mishra</f=
ont></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" fa=
ce=3D"georgia, serif">Network Engineering &amp; Technology=C2=A0</font></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, =
serif">Verizon=C2=A0</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" colo=
r=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Silver Spring, MD 20904</font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, ser=
if">Phone: 301 502-1347</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"1" c=
olor=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mi=
shra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></font></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>

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From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" <gengxuesong@huawei.com>
To: "zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, "hayabusagsm@gmail.com" <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
CC: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Re:BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
Thread-Index: AQHWA1DLr5pzrtuNk06J0kLVugNaRKhax9Yw
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:17:04 +0000
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References: CABNhwV0G945UCHN=tTqsGM99-vqSCUzFMeFbk0MkgDrR3DyyXw@mail.gmail.com,  CABNhwV00MFZ794q2QOiLA2p51O8m5w6oG6AUwQaCMpMa1A_r+w@mail.gmail.com <202003261725503637966@zte.com.cn>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 08:41:53 -0700
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Subject: [Bier] Fwd: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-14
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*,

We have time for more presos if anyone wants to be added to the agenda.
Please email chairs with your request, title, presenter name and time
request.

Thanks,
Shep
(Chairs)
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 1:31 PM
Subject: [Bier] Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) WG Virtual Meeting:
2020-04-14
To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <bier@ietf.org>


The Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) Working Group will hold
a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-14 from 08:00 to 08:30
America/Los_Angeles (15:00 to 15:30 UTC).

Agenda:
Agenda, Notewell - Chairs, 5mins
draft-ietf-bier-te-arch - Toerless Eckert, 10 min
draft-ietf-bier-mld-04 - Stig Venaas, 5 min

Information about remote participation:
Remote participation information will be obtained at the time of approval

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>*,<div><br></div><div>We have time for more presos if =
anyone wants to be added to the agenda. Please email chairs with your reque=
st, title, presenter name and time request.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks=
,</div><div>Shep</div><div>(Chairs)<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>Fro=
m: <strong class=3D"gmail_sendername" dir=3D"auto">IESG Secretary</strong> =
<span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg-secretary@ietf.org">iesg-secr=
etary@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 1:31 PM<br>Subj=
ect: [Bier] Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) WG Virtual Meeting: 202=
0-04-14<br>To: IETF-Announce &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-announce@ietf.org">=
ietf-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Cc:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org"=
>bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br>The Bit Indexed Explicit Replicatio=
n (bier) Working Group will hold<br>
a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-14 from 08:00 to 08:30 America/Los_Ang=
eles (15:00 to 15:30 UTC).<br>
<br>
Agenda:<br>
Agenda, Notewell - Chairs, 5mins<br>
draft-ietf-bier-te-arch - Toerless Eckert, 10 min<br>
draft-ietf-bier-mld-04 - Stig Venaas, 5 min<br>
<br>
Information about remote participation:<br>
Remote participation information will be obtained at the time of approval<b=
r>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
BIER mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:BIER@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">BIER@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier</a><br>
</div></div></div>

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References: <CABNhwV00MFZ794q2QOiLA2p51O8m5w6oG6AUwQaCMpMa1A_r+w@mail.gmail.com> <202003261725503637966@zte.com.cn>
In-Reply-To: <202003261725503637966@zte.com.cn>
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 09:11:16 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+wi2hPSPVnaSLps-2qw5kjsf5-KtiWGSu9cx6p3y1wbSckNtQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Cc: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/KGQvPcgXTA9Gp51dGqRvprkwDK4>
Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 2:26 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi Gyan,
>
>
> Please find my answer by [Sandy2]. :-)
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandy
>
>
> <http://www.zte.com.cn/>
> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*GyanMishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6man@ietf.org <6man@ietf.org>;bier@=
ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>;
> tonysietf@gmail.com <tonysietf@gmail.com>;
> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 17:09
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bie=
rin6-04*
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:08 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gyan,
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much for your comments!
>>
>> Sorry for the late response.
>>
>> Please find my answer with [Sandy] inline. :-)
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sandy
>>
>>
>> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*GyanMishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.c=
om>;
>> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*6MAN <6man@ietf.org>;BIER WG <bier=
@ietf.org>;=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;
>> *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8825=E6=97=A5 08:36
>> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bi=
erin6-04*
>> Tony & Sandy
>>
>> So is the idea proposed in the two drafts mentioned for BIER IPv6 suppor=
t
>> of encoding the BIER header up to 256 bit mask for BFER encoding schema
>> supporting up to I believe 128 BFERs per set - to encode the BIER header
>> into the DO EH -  and then for directly connected neighbor the outer hea=
der
>> IPv6 encapsulation 1 hop tunnel used link local source and destination -
>> for non directly connected neighbors IPv6 encapsulation use multi hop
>> tunnel with GUI SA and DA.  In both tunnel cases being mutually exclusiv=
e
>> the link local tunnel would have TTL 1 and multi hop would have appropri=
ate
>>  >1 ttl.
>>
>> So this is 2 different solutions for 2 different use cases.  Correct?
>>
>> [Sandy]: Sorry. No. The two solutions are used to solve one use case. An=
d
>> there is no relationship between the Bitstringlength in BIER header and =
the
>> position in IPv6 header.
>>
>     Gyan> Ok.  The one use case is for being able to tunnel over hardware
> not supporting BIER and so for that you have the two tunnel options.  The
> two tunnel types are link local or GUA and both are multi hop tunnels -
> Correct?
>
>> [Sandy2]: Yes. If you think they are all tunneling. :-)
>>
>
Yes, critical point. We are _not_ "tunneling" in case of LL to LL BIERin6
in fact for all practical purposes (tunnel assumes fragmentation/security
etc which BIER architecture does NOT presume from L2 header, we do not
expect Ethernet to fragment or encrypt BIER). IPv6 is basically used the
same way we use ethernet, it's poor man's "L2 header" that allows standard,
non-extended silicon to throw stuff to slow path to process if silicon
doesn't support BIER (will be reality for e.g. cheap WiFi routers for ages
to come I think). If silicon does support BIER fast path can be taken as
well with bierin6 but if silicon supports BIRE we have L2 encaps which
arguably should be used rather than twisting ipv6.

BIER architecture uses unicast tunnels to get frames across parts of
network without BIER support as well. Now, here the bierin6 is irresistibly
convienent to just stick a BFR prefix as destination and hop over routers
without even signalling a tunnel and then it is a unicast tunnel from BIER
perspective. Kind of like SR or SRv6 or MPLS tunnel (which need to be
differntatied from BIER running natively over MPLS labels) but for v6 no
special HW support is needed so that's neat ;-) SR/SRv6/IP forwarding/GRE
are just unicast tunnels to BIER.

--- tony

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 2:26 AM &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p styl=
e=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Hi Gyan,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14=
px;font-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial"=
>Please find my answer by [Sandy2]. :-)</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-=
family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thanks,=
</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Sandy</p><div><div><div><=
p style=3D"margin:0px;line-height:20px"><a href=3D"http://www.zte.com.cn/" =
target=3D"_blank"><br></a></p></div></div></div><div></div><div><div style=
=3D"display:block"><div style=3D"width:100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;ba=
ckground-color:rgb(224,229,233);color:rgb(19,136,255);text-align:center">=
=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_19366516785000=
0664zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div style=3D"padding:8px;background-color=
:rgb(245,246,248)"><div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</b><span>Gy=
anMishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hay=
abusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span></div><div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=
=EF=BC=9A</b><span style=3D"display:inline">=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;</sp=
an></div><div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</b><span style=3D"dis=
play:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.o=
rg</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;;</span><span style=3D"display:inline"><a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span><span style=3D"display:in=
line"><a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gm=
ail.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">to=
nysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;</span></div><div><b>=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=
=9A</b><span>2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 17:09</span></div><div><b>=
=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</b><span><b>Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-=
bier-bierin6-04</b></span></div></div><div></div><div><div><div><br></div><=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:08 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn"=
 target=3D"_blank">zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p style=3D"font-size:14px;fo=
nt-family:arial">Hi Gyan,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">=
<br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thank you very much f=
or your comments!</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Sorry fo=
r the late response.</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Pleas=
e find my answer with [Sandy] inline. :-)</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;fon=
t-family:arial"><br></p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Thank=
s,</p><p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Sandy</p><p style=3D"fo=
nt-size:14px;font-family:arial"><br></p><div><div style=3D"display:block"><=
div style=3D"width:100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:rgb(2=
24,229,233);color:rgb(19,136,255);text-align:center">=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=
=82=AE=E4=BB=B6</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_193665167850000664m_-58816554832076=
21487zwriteHistoryContainer"><div><div style=3D"padding:8px;background-colo=
r:rgb(245,246,248)"><div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</b>GyanMis=
hra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusa=
gsm@gmail.com</a>&gt;</div><div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</b>=
<span style=3D"display:inline">Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysi=
etf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;</span></div><=
div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</b><span style=3D"display:inlin=
e">6MAN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;;</span><span style=3D"display:inline">BIER WG &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org</a>&gt;;</span><span styl=
e=3D"display:inline">=E5=BC=A0=E5=BE=8100007940;</span></div><div><b>=E6=97=
=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A</b>2020=E5=B9=B403=E6=9C=8825=E6=97=A5 08:36</div><=
div><b>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A</b><b>Re: BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang=
-bier-bierin6-04</b></div></div><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">Tony &amp; Sand=
y=C2=A0</div></div><br><div dir=3D"auto">So is the idea proposed in the two=
 drafts mentioned for BIER IPv6 support of encoding the BIER header up to 2=
56 bit mask for BFER encoding schema supporting up to I believe 128 BFERs p=
er set - to encode the BIER header into the DO EH - =C2=A0and then for dire=
ctly connected neighbor the outer header IPv6 encapsulation 1 hop tunnel us=
ed link local source and destination - for non directly connected neighbors=
 IPv6 encapsulation use multi hop tunnel with GUI SA and DA.=C2=A0 In both =
tunnel cases being mutually exclusive the link local tunnel would have TTL =
1 and multi hop would have appropriate =C2=A0&gt;1 ttl.</div><p>So this is =
2 different solutions for 2 different use cases.=C2=A0 Correct?</p><p>[Sand=
y]: Sorry. No. The two solutions are used to solve one use case. And there =
is no relationship between the Bitstringlength in BIER header and the posit=
ion in IPv6 header.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan&gt; Ok.=C2=A0 The one use case is for bei=
ng able to tunnel over hardware not supporting BIER and so for that you hav=
e the two tunnel options.=C2=A0 The two tunnel types are link local or GUA =
and both are multi hop tunnels - Correct?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"display:block"><div id=
=3D"gmail-m_193665167850000664m_-5881655483207621487zwriteHistoryContainer"=
><div><div><p>[Sandy2]: Yes. If you think they are all tunneling. :-)</p></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, critical po=
int. We are _not_ &quot;tunneling&quot; in case of LL to LL BIERin6 in fact=
 for all practical purposes (tunnel assumes fragmentation/security etc whic=
h BIER architecture does NOT presume from L2 header, we do not expect Ether=
net to fragment or encrypt BIER). IPv6 is basically used the same way we us=
e ethernet, it&#39;s poor man&#39;s &quot;L2 header&quot; that allows stand=
ard, non-extended silicon to throw stuff to slow path to process if silicon=
 doesn&#39;t support BIER (will be reality for e.g. cheap WiFi routers for =
ages to come I think). If silicon does support BIER fast path can be taken =
as well with bierin6 but if silicon supports BIRE we have L2 encaps which a=
rguably should be used rather than twisting ipv6. <br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>BIER architecture uses unicast tunnels to get frames across parts of n=
etwork without BIER support as well. Now, here the bierin6 is irresistibly =
convienent to just stick a BFR prefix as destination and hop over routers w=
ithout even signalling a tunnel and then it is a unicast tunnel from BIER p=
erspective. Kind of like SR or SRv6 or MPLS tunnel (which need to be differ=
ntatied from BIER running natively over MPLS labels) but for v6 no special =
HW support is needed so that&#39;s neat ;-) SR/SRv6/IP forwarding/GRE are j=
ust unicast tunnels to BIER. <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></d=
iv><br></div></div>

--000000000000d3d2e905a1c442db--


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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 19:44:15 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 09:11:16AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> Yes, critical point. We are _not_ "tunneling" in case of LL to LL BIERin6
> in fact for all practical purposes (tunnel assumes fragmentation/security
> etc which BIER architecture does NOT presume from L2 header, we do not
> expect Ethernet to fragment or encrypt BIER).

When you say "We" your hat is that of a co-author ?

Your definition of "tunnel" would be whenever you start to have to
support fragmentation or encryption ?

For example, in anima, we are doing single hop, link-local IPv6 IPsec
encap. I avoided to use the word "tunnel" because i am not
sure there is a clear definition of what properties of an encap
constitutes a tunnel, but in IETF/IESG review folks often call this
a tunnel. Do you know any authoritative RFC defining the word tunnel ?

If there is no authoritative definition, maybe its better to stop
using the name calling "tunnel" and stick to the properties of
interest and compare them. E.g.: no fragmentation, no encryption
desired/required. I think we agree on those desire/requirements to
enable fast processing. I don't think we don't agree on a requirement
that we should also be able to support going beyond that.

In both solutions, whenever we do encap between two non subnet-connected
BFR, we probably need to have some signaling or config based adjacency
MTU mechanism if we want to avoid PMTUD.

> IPv6 is basically used the
> same way we use ethernet, it's poor man's "L2 header" that allows standard,
> non-extended silicon to throw stuff to slow path to process if silicon
> doesn't support BIER (will be reality for e.g. cheap WiFi routers for ages
> to come I think). If silicon does support BIER fast path can be taken as
> well with bierin6 but if silicon supports BIRE we have L2 encaps which
> arguably should be used rather than twisting ipv6.

See my prior emails i sent on my opinion that i think this property of
supporting fast silicon processing would IMHO equally apply to
both encaps. Of course, we still have to pass 6man for both
approaches to see if they stick more (undesirable) complexitites
on us.

> BIER architecture uses unicast tunnels to get frames across parts of
> network without BIER support as well. Now, here the bierin6 is irresistibly
> convienent to just stick a BFR prefix as destination and hop over routers
> without even signalling a tunnel and then it is a unicast tunnel from BIER
> perspective. Kind of like SR or SRv6 or MPLS tunnel (which need to be
> differntatied from BIER running natively over MPLS labels) but for v6 no
> special HW support is needed so that's neat ;-) SR/SRv6/IP forwarding/GRE
> are just unicast tunnels to BIER.

given my inability to find authoritative definitions for tunnels, i
was using terms like "remote adjacency" for these cases in other docs
;-)

Cheers
    Toerless

> --- tony

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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In-Reply-To: <20200326184414.GA30139@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:05:30 -0700
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To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: "zhang.zheng" <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 11:44 AM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 09:11:16AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > Yes, critical point. We are _not_ "tunneling" in case of LL to LL BIERin6
> > in fact for all practical purposes (tunnel assumes fragmentation/security
> > etc which BIER architecture does NOT presume from L2 header, we do not
> > expect Ethernet to fragment or encrypt BIER).
>
> When you say "We" your hat is that of a co-author ?
>
>
yepp, co-author of the original bierin6 draft obviously ...

Asking in wider scope: while reading the rest of your email: are you
implying that BIER WG should be in the busines of, as a previous
commentator put it, inventing yet another L3-routed source-specific
multicast tunneling technology?

-- tony

--000000000000e55a6005a1c6b157
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 11:44 AM Toer=
less Eckert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tte@cs.fau.de">tte@cs.fau.de</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, Mar 2=
6, 2020 at 09:11:16AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:<br>
&gt; Yes, critical point. We are _not_ &quot;tunneling&quot; in case of LL =
to LL BIERin6<br>
&gt; in fact for all practical purposes (tunnel assumes fragmentation/secur=
ity<br>
&gt; etc which BIER architecture does NOT presume from L2 header, we do not=
<br>
&gt; expect Ethernet to fragment or encrypt BIER).<br>
<br>
When you say &quot;We&quot; your hat is that of a co-author ?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>yepp, co-author of the original bierin=
6 draft obviously ... <br></div><div><br></div><div>Asking in wider scope: =
while reading the rest of your email: are you implying that BIER WG should =
be in the busines of, as a previous commentator put it, inventing yet anoth=
er L3-routed source-specific multicast tunneling technology? <br></div><div=
><br></div><div>-- tony <br></div></div></div>

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:13:51 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER in IPv6 --- draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-04
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On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:05:30PM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 11:44 AM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 09:11:16AM -0700, Tony Przygienda wrote:
> > > Yes, critical point. We are _not_ "tunneling" in case of LL to LL BIERin6
> > > in fact for all practical purposes (tunnel assumes fragmentation/security
> > > etc which BIER architecture does NOT presume from L2 header, we do not
> > > expect Ethernet to fragment or encrypt BIER).
> >
> > When you say "We" your hat is that of a co-author ?
> >
> >
> yepp, co-author of the original bierin6 draft obviously ...
> 
> Asking in wider scope: while reading the rest of your email: are you
> implying that BIER WG should be in the busines of, as a previous
> commentator put it, inventing yet another L3-routed source-specific
> multicast tunneling technology?

Until i know what you're trying to imply with the word tunneling, i
have to guess ... lets simply talk about the properties we
want/do-not-want.

The BIER architecture RFC very nicely points to the fact how BIER 
can automatically determine remote neighbors to hop over non-BIER
enabled routers. Benefit of relying on the IGP. I think it would
nice if this can be leveraged in our IPv6 solution, but it only
makes sense if we can reasonably expect that a good amount of
devices can do this in the "fast-path" like hop-by-hop. I think
thats possible with both drafts.

I am not persuased that link-local encap+decap on every hop is
faster in HW data-plane than rewriting IPv6 header elements. I
have seem many forwarding planes where encap/decap would cause
recycling.

Functionally, the main difference between the drafts IMHO is that Xie's draft
uses the IPv6 header to carry VPN info, whereas i do not understand
how we would do this in Sandy's draft.

Cheers
    Toerless

> -- tony

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-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Bier] Fwd: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication (bier) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-14
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