From nobody Wed Sep 2 17:08:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDF03A0317; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 17:08:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0gxYY-DLk0Lp; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com (mail-vs1-xe35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E8F03A0365; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id y3so747285vsn.1; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Yzw461/+CeyweUGAdr4p88pljlf5KYeSa6s9hyME6Mg=; b=S5TYClha83xkxFbkCq+v7k3r8IXiEvG0pxw1hBj6xTby7FS6Llf07WMd/uk5FLBCCp UaeIzOAaZrCb/54D5S6s1TxD+NJOkPu4dEf1QWZh9haCqGg/znv+nnUD4uKACJ0xJ26v gQvW+6IGQtFkiSiVZU1GihGjqg06+tKJAQEv/vKw5JZCN4Sbm+BdUqiqRDgg5YVm8NoB jGt6V7dcrKK+U6DkQnS0iJtjvkx0qG77PLBaiDlrckmHowc1ToyyJy8T97rlWKG68r9g 5Aq8P0b9neE+BOhnEmD8yJzpflQOXFrjh78ng9mCN4SOXBw2D+l4cHTEba4MzFWRdsfN Gl5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Yzw461/+CeyweUGAdr4p88pljlf5KYeSa6s9hyME6Mg=; b=LuXIH7ebwk2azd6BugLeJd6+WeY7MCFnIHmeX7zv7gzeQNkHUctZ+CIOFWIKtn6jk1 gONQpq8rUkxXZRjqdUrv5rHbsH/WkA+zq30zlg4Hp3nxT+qrLO6zkrO6dEq3CyKcAXIm UUjZIRNBcDFBrYKLgFvliFbYgGFpgXjhB5jrQf11ZSFNzZsBJXorSO9O5TRpialXwyE5 /aWpeh9vNW9W4SXZsmsMnhefykq4h19S5dqfaDO0eEJR8d5pV52f14YNBf8cc7CqhSXe 1g/zP5bw3WHmKWpCX2g7ltD82/bJ1pAKm5Qt9+uRPp4MtIl4VTH4vX3LdqV+zLl14rrW knJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532KpksDUyXE4mx9kgvBUBjgRrmDr0t6jXmj8onOGbooaLMIXiaI Po+3YqKx8vAB1r+CJghGYbxWztrwOq9eC+TeHQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzu/6fDoTpsw26So0AFge5/dJIZOozAQcZjsWWBkHYPPshZAMLPnwO8R1xMiyvPG8tEBsb9AdBf34GNT1e/lX4= X-Received: by 2002:a67:c78b:: with SMTP id t11mr143445vsk.229.1599091679374; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Arkadiy Gulko Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 20:07:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: gregimirsky@gmail.com, draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org, bier@ietf.org, bier-ads@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000083315a05ae5d8bd9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 00:08:02 -0000 --00000000000083315a05ae5d8bd9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document. Arkadiy Juniper Business Use Only *From:* Greg Mirsky *Sent:* Friday, August 28, 2020 8:14 PM *To:* draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs ; BIER WG ; bier-ads@ietf.org *Subject:* IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* Hi Authors, et al, I was assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the email archive, I couldn't find your responses to the IPR Poll. Hence, as an important step in preparing to advance this document, could you please respond to this the list to confirm whether you are aware of IPR that applies to this document. Common replies include: * No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has already been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has not yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in the datatracker in a timely way. * I am aware of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to this document but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR disclosure in a timely way. Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are encouraged to make the necessary disclosures. In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up. Regards, Greg M. --00000000000083315a05ae5d8bd9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am not aware of any IPR that = applies to this document.

= =C2=A0

Arkadiy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

Juniper Bus= iness Use Only

From:=C2=A0Greg Mirsky &= lt;gregimirsky@g= mail.com>
Sent:=C2=A0Friday, August 28, 2020 8:14 PM
To:=C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org= >; BIER WG <bier@i= etf.org>;=C2=A0bier-ads@ietf.org
Subject:=C2=A0IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier= -bar-ipa

=C2=A0<= u>

[External Email. Be cautious of content]=

=C2=A0

Hi Authors, et al,

I was=C2=A0assigned as the Shepher= d of this document. Looking through the email archive, I couldn't find = your responses to the IPR Poll. Hence, as an important=C2=A0step in prepari= ng to advance this document, could you please respond to this the list to c= onfirm whether you are aware of IPR that applies to this document.

C= ommon replies include:

* No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies = to this document

* Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this docum= ent, and it has already been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker.<= br>
* Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has n= ot yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in t= he datatracker in a timely way.

* I am aware of IPR held by a third = party that might be applicable to this document but has not been disclosed.= I will make a third-party IPR disclosure in a timely way.

Other mem= bers of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are encouraged to = make the necessary disclosures.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In= the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up.=

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg M.


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(2603:10b6:a02:92::24) by BYAPR08MB5861.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:127::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3348.15; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 00:10:50 +0000 Received: from BYAPR08MB3975.namprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6dd9:c1bf:ece7:5912]) by BYAPR08MB3975.namprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6dd9:c1bf:ece7:5912%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3326.025; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 00:10:50 +0000 From: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" To: Arkadiy Gulko , "gregimirsky@gmail.com" , "draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "bier-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa Thread-Index: AQHWgYZNDXu0Q7F8ZkyrR8piI3Y9eKlWCiAg Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 00:10:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f152fa7e-090c-4bc2-1cfb-08d84f9dd0f2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Sep 2020 00:10:50.5074 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0uSlCoM/T9w5y0o0U9hKrxQ+l51a3oHf668jMhQ9MNeou3ZfzbBf8HAB/CWHTKo3M2J3JSYjRwNEoF64f/dAx4p1VarYQnTKwV/no+WeiK0= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR08MB5861 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 00:10:59 -0000 --_000_BYAPR08MB3975F20C040975207C801027912C0BYAPR08MB3975namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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--_000_BYAPR08MB3975F20C040975207C801027912C0BYAPR08MB3975namp_-- From nobody Thu Sep 3 02:02:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662B93A0CD9; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 02:02:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDKOw5nXeZOD; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 02:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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bier-ads@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Greg Mirsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.202.85, ams-iwijnand-8814.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 09:02:56 -0000 I=E2=80=99m not aware of any IPA, I mean IPRs ;-) Thx, Ice. > On 29 Aug 2020, at 02:13, Greg Mirsky wrote: >=20 > Hi Authors, et al, >=20 > I was assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the = email archive, I couldn't find your responses to the IPR Poll. Hence, as = an important step in preparing to advance this document, could you = please respond to this the list to confirm whether you are aware of IPR = that applies to this document. >=20 > Common replies include: >=20 > * No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document >=20 > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has = already been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. >=20 > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has not = yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in = the datatracker in a timely way. >=20 > * I am aware of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to = this document but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR = disclosure in a timely way. >=20 > Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are = encouraged to make the necessary disclosures. =20 >=20 > In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up. >=20 > Regards, > Greg M. 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Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:45:01 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: IJsbrand Wijnands , Greg Mirsky CC: "draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org" , BIER WG Chairs , BIER WG , "bier-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa Thread-Index: AQHWfZlNG2NeuaAhMUi+AD8Q3TX0gqlWpowAgABPClA= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:45:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-09-03T13:44:58Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=f71d4505-327d-4712-a458-8ea613e21448; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.5.0.60 dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: cisco.com; 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Thu, 03 Sep 2020 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Gyan Mishra Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 00:24:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext@ietf.org, BIER WG Chairs , BIER WG , bier-ads@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000adb04a05ae754ead" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] [BIER] draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 04:29:04 -0000 --000000000000adb04a05ae754ead Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Authors, et al, I was assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the email archive as well as tracker status I found 1 IPR below: 2019-03-07 Jenny Bui Posted related IPR disclosure: ZTE Corporation's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext Date ID Statement Results for draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext ("BGP Link-State extensions for BIER"): 2019-03-06 3456 ZTE Corporation's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext Please confirm any changes to the status of this IPR disclosed if any. Hence, as an important step in preparing to advance this document, is to confirm whether anyone is aware of any other IPR that applies to this document. Common replies include: * No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has already been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has not yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in the datatracker in a timely way. * I am aware of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to this document but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR disclosure in a timely way. Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are encouraged to make the necessary disclosures. In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up. Thank you *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --000000000000adb04a05ae754ead Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Authors, et al,

I was=C2=A0assigned as the = Shepherd of this document. Looking through the email archive as well as tra= cker status I found 1 IPR below:

2019-03-07
Jenny BuiPosted related IPR disclosure:=C2= =A0ZTE Corporation= 9;s Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext
= 2019-03-06
D= ate
ID
Statement
<= /th>
Results for draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-b= ier-ext ("BGP Link-State extensions for BIER"):
3456
Thank you
 --000000000000adb04a05ae754ead-- From nobody Mon Sep 7 01:59:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F593A093B; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 01:59:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id csNGtyU1n0bz; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 01:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491633A0958; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 01:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxct.zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.164.217]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 2C5E6F931D900957946C; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:59:07 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id DBF7C897EF75199F96C3; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:59:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp04.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.203]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 0878x5di077627; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:59:05 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from chen.ran@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp01[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid203; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:59:05 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:59:05 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2af95f55f659f155210d X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202009071659052639456@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.15.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <159955938168.3820.3533920539733673666@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 03:03:01 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-07.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:03:07 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Data Model for BIER Protocol Authors : Ran Chen Fangwei Hu Zheng Zhang Xianxian Dai Mahesh Sivakumar Filename : draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-07.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-09-08 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model for BIER configuration and operation. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-bier-yang-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Sep 8 15:47:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7778D3A0475; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:47:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 41gBhDkffmlk; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E2573A046D; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com with SMTP id j3so276577vsm.0; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 15:47:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OkkvtjrSizNHhaA0qpG770ZTXAYDL/WbZ6iPCmacuJQ=; b=f3NFjnO8xDfctoJc+neFL6OiOrSJqNqYiMhCX6YB37ZNtKvTcd9Wm235ApCW3phQCN W6tQnt2SVQ4ims3fRF24bLY24ocdouUUXThcMghIxD1ddl4ki0/oCSULPfuqzGtxhhC4 VZJm5lo5mfe/vgaI+9tOeBz3MfyKAHwNUxUiA0aWTchEBUVRznexqw4o6yeWyuBxRAQI CgV1D78Z91Mf+eiLVOpCBBsxJ8ziQd3GT8LM5Kz4vAmtjD/yEyhaY7C1O0l7I8i7uFN5 0dtep9gCnqPLhCaTi8dvVoDlI6/R8qVhPrCun26ZR9D2RHLR9fDvMmg3ED6n4qN3cPC6 s24w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OkkvtjrSizNHhaA0qpG770ZTXAYDL/WbZ6iPCmacuJQ=; b=MNhr7eOQpamElp8gdKrVN2V6mW0CpUwHVHkLzkkrtU22NxbDDvesS9zFyoHhPKjmPh 3QSsmJ+QkHFFRpEg5z9ykV+d8OGApbh00QYzTjHF6Rr/DZtVhm+INijXgI/bcaG6jXsX s0C4xLgBRYX53aT+fqzgv8x8F+PKsX/Rq/3wXCKXRAK72ELHWux10VThm9/HQeYgmbnn mZYTgCATDFKkdqNEjGMkTWh2H4x/I7SsihbdqEWSPVvnmPHP/RNOPNJxcgjbZdYJQSU/ ygW/reF+qeOCNcvRaJsld9eauqz/VYrbPOdyq9u05r8cjv/NkKh6MHEHffHiYc9ZDDMf 4gpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532pfl4J0SBNhac5nJiMZiX7yH85D67u7/wgpry4DfZ5F6qK64jF nB9CWYYUPjRH8h2syKX5Bbwyu871lakKHFBL2KdazXurKws= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVi92P3QILb8CiPfo6Zv8hvjqTwFdsZKE7ouK2iFINrz+vMRgRuuW/+3FCgg1Sad0gmD0csSjQBDVXui8EMvU= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ecd0:: with SMTP id i16mr948014vsp.85.1599605239555; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 15:47:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202009071659052639456@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <202009071659052639456@zte.com.cn> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 18:47:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: chen.ran@zte.com.cn Cc: bier@ietf.org, bier-ads@ietf.org, bier-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015a89d05aed51e2f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] [BIER] draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 22:47:23 -0000 --00000000000015a89d05aed51e2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Ran! Gyan On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:59 AM wrote: > Hi Gyan, > > > Sorry for late reply. > > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has alread= y > been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. Thanks. > > > Best Regards. > > Ran > > > > > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*GyanMishra > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext@iet= f.org < > draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext@ietf.org>;BIER WG Chairs < > bier-chairs@ietf.org>;BIER WG ;bier-ads@ietf.org < > bier-ads@ietf.org>; > *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B409=E6=9C=8804=E6=97=A5 12:29 > *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**[BIER] draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-07= * > Hi Authors, et al, > > I was assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the emai= l > archive as well as tracker status I found 1 IPR below: > > 2019-03-07 > > Jenny Bui Posted related IPR disclosure: ZTE Corporation's Statement > about IPR related to draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext > Date > ID > Statement > Results for draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext ("BGP Link-State extensions > for BIER"): > 2019-03-06 3456 ZTE Corporation's Statement about IPR related to > draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext > Please confirm any changes to the status of this IPR disclosed if any. > > Hence, as an important step in preparing to advance this document, is to > confirm whether anyone is aware of any other IPR that applies to this > document. > > Common replies include: > > * No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document > > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has alread= y > been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. > > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has not ye= t > been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in the > datatracker in a timely way. > > * I am aware of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to thi= s > document but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR > disclosure in a timely way. > > Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are > encouraged to make the necessary disclosures. > > In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up. > > Thank you > > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions A**rchitect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike > *Silver > Spring, MD > > > > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --00000000000015a89d05aed51e2f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you Ran!

=
Gyan

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:59 AM <chen.ran@zte.com.cn> wrote:

Hi Gyan,


<= p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">Sorry for late reply.

*= Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has already b= een disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker.=C2=A0 Thanks.

<= p style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:arial">

Best Regard= s.

Ran





=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE= =E4=BB=B6
=E5=8F= =91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AGyanMishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2020=E5= =B9=B409=E6=9C=8804=E6=97=A5 12:29
=E4=B8=BB =E9= =A2=98 =EF=BC=9A[BIER] draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-e= xt-07
Hi Authors, et al,

I w= as=C2=A0assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the emai= l archive as well as tracker status I found 1 IPR below:

2019-03-07

Jenny BuiPos= ted related IPR disclosure:=C2=A0ZTE Corporation's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf= -bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext
<= th scope=3D"col" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:inherit;text-align:= left;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretc= h:normal;font-size:inherit;line-height:1.42857;font-family:inherit;margin:0= px 0px 18px;background-color:inherit;vertical-align:bottom;border-top:0px;b= order-bottom:2px solid rgb(221,221,221);outline:inherit">
Statement
= = 2019-03-0= 6
<= div style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;padding:4px 18px 4px 4px">Date
ID
Results for draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-b= ier-ext ("BGP Link-State extensions for BIER"):
3456ZTE Cor= poration's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-e= xt
Please confirm any changes to th= e status of this IPR disclosed=C2=A0if any.

Hence, as an impo= rtant=C2=A0step in preparing to advance this document, is to confirm whethe= r anyone is=C2=A0aware of any other IPR that applies to this document.
<= br>Common replies include:

* No, I am not aware of any IPR that appl= ies to this document

* Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this d= ocument, and it has already been disclosed and is recorded in the datatrack= er.

* Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it h= as not yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded = in the datatracker in a timely way.

* I am aware of IPR held by a th= ird party that might be applicable to this document but has not been disclo= sed. I will make a third-party IPR disclosure in a timely way.

Other= members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are encouraged= to make the necessary disclosures.=C2=A0=C2=A0

In the meantime= , I'll work on my comments and the write-up.

Thank you
=


Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

M 301 502-1347
13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
<= a href=3D"https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike+Silver+Spr= ing,+MD?entry=3Dgmail&source=3Dg">Silver Spring, MD



--

<= a href=3D"http://www.verizon.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);padding-bo= ttom:1em;display:inline-block" target=3D"_blank">

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

Subject: Re: [Bier] [BIER] draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-07 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 22:48:00 -0000 --00000000000052ca1405aed5208d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Sandy! Gyan On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 5:13 AM wrote: > Hi Gyan, Chairs, > > Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has already > been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. > > Thanks, > > Sandy > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*GyanMishra > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext@iet= f.org < > draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext@ietf.org>;BIER WG Chairs < > bier-chairs@ietf.org>;BIER WG ;bier-ads@ietf.org < > bier-ads@ietf.org>; > *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B409=E6=9C=8804=E6=97=A5 12:29 > *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**[Bier] [BIER] draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier= -ext-07* > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > Hi Authors, et al, > > I was assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the emai= l > archive as well as tracker status I found 1 IPR below: > > 2019-03-07 > > Jenny Bui Posted related IPR disclosure: ZTE Corporation's Statement > about IPR related to draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext > Date > ID > Statement > Results for draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext ("BGP Link-State extensions > for BIER"): > 2019-03-06 3456 ZTE Corporation's Statement about IPR related to > draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext > Please confirm any changes to the status of this IPR disclosed if any. > > Hence, as an important step in preparing to advance this document, is to > confirm whether anyone is aware of any other IPR that applies to this > document. > > Common replies include: > > * No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document > > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has alread= y > been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. > > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has not ye= t > been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in the > datatracker in a timely way. > > * I am aware of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to thi= s > document but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR > disclosure in a timely way. > > Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are > encouraged to make the necessary disclosures. > > In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up. > > Thank you > > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions A**rchitect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike > *Silver > Spring, MD > > > > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --00000000000052ca1405aed5208d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Thank you Sandy!
Gyan

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 5:13 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:<= br>

Hi Gyan, Chairs,

Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies= to this document, and it has already been disclosed and is recorded in the= datatracker.

T= hanks,

Sandy

<= div style=3D"display:block">
=E5=8E=9F= =E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AGyanMishra <= hayabusagsm@gmai= l.com>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A= draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext@= ietf.org <draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext@ietf.org>;BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>;BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>;<= a href=3D"mailto:bier-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-ads@ietf.org= <bier-ads@ietf.o= rg>;
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A= 2020=E5=B9=B409=E6=9C=8804=E6=97=A5 12:29
= =E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A[Bier] [BIER] draft-iet= f-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext-07
____________= ___________________________________
BIER=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
BIER@ietf.org
https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


Hi Aut= hors, et al,

I was=C2=A0assigned as the Shepherd of this document. L= ooking through the email archive as well as tracker status I found 1 IPR be= low:

2019-03-07

Jenny BuiPosted related IPR disclosure:=C2=A0ZTE Corporation's Statement about IP= R related to draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext
Date
ID
Statement
Results for = draft-ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext ("BGP Link-State extensions for BIER&q= uot;):
2019-03-063456ZTE Corporation's Statement about IPR related to draft-= ietf-bier-bgp-ls-bier-ext
Please co= nfirm any changes to the status of this IPR disclosed=C2=A0if any.
Hence, as an important=C2=A0step in preparing to advance this documen= t, is to confirm whether anyone is=C2=A0aware of any other IPR that applies= to this document.

Common replies include:

* No, I am not awa= re of any IPR that applies to this document

* Yes, I am aware of IPR= that applies to this document, and it has already been disclosed and is re= corded in the datatracker.

* Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to = this document, but it has not yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is = disclosed and recorded in the datatracker in a timely way.

* I am aw= are of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to this document = but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR disclosure in a t= imely way.

Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to t= his work are encouraged to make the necessary disclosures.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= br>
In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up.

Thank you
<= div dir=3D"ltr">


=

Gyan Mishra

Network Solu= tions A= rchitect=C2=A0

M 3= 01 502-1347
13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
Silver Sprin= g, MD



<= /div>--

=

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0<= /p>

M 301 502-1347
13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
= Silver Spring, MD


--00000000000052ca1405aed5208d-- From nobody Wed Sep 9 09:56:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553293A0AB8; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 09:56:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vI7LrT5-HV7R; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 09:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68B533A0ABA; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 09:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id c2so4445234ljj.12; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 09:56:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=NdX7ImzCMcnzP8Gld3nxucxrACx34Dhnv35MBjaxZCo=; b=K3vGzeHw3y/hZtQJvd0U8vdZ+xzGYGxwPYz1lRYlfVX2PMLbNGT8sbPfkMdk7dk/hu Wz+faZfFZbK9v667n2iqLH7iyK6hFv+xs9+Cmxk3lB1KMBiW+PEpPOI10iGFBWmn+938 FWgzM024YnsQfj9xpIzqPRFu3DXWPzBt9ClN3+HvdctF6g3WtEcIsQLf/e+lmXU/zLW+ zmUxdkPQjh5pqwqex6wO2mjJ5XQ/4td5QGVYywoPMlXYri6UXLOFmTq4x6e0yfjCtNFq 2u0KW1SV9IwSnvRUaWfGxtSAkcGymce9mc1DkJ+q2uP02MZWwq43AInEaPTFku7Xw4I2 gO9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=NdX7ImzCMcnzP8Gld3nxucxrACx34Dhnv35MBjaxZCo=; b=bIPIrRvDnMgL/ZXpVRdx+v1fn3FgSzcGvloDvjoPvihEuqcIJW/5hhlyZkFWNK1ojj XJQfOmGijsLm/VOxjhuVgXb72SizonBD8WF2m5+ELwEMhzkECgSFJgZaw473Nl8bccJu ZsTu15gKuCu6zAn+Fj8wH78UhUBN7kVosMovkVPGOXSYmj2spboj6ReWoPocexIvGQwv RGNBHUSYh+OZYtGvPCTb67eyTP6wC/2WQyoQjonfQciZCapyopeFdAx4lfy9A4mKWIDY RHZ6KhesQ1pGs3Vlp9SCGt2aZtEGaZPpmFzT2nmo4/C8kRqL9xU6RusqIgKR8ZwyyJSV XzPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325LU7Y9YL+nkPdHYrFr7Zaw2Y2b3YtYs8wItEXhoYzrtcCz0tC DxHCFZyO6J6t2KULgpADNhGhDP8PtgKcmXI3pZ8NrWXAp1s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzaUopR/j9bo3Hk6UE4ZgKm8Cv0iM5CY0qWcpPGhNGshI5NrhPBcFlQczFMb/ZouwJTPsod1mxg+z0JuTACRCg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:102c:: with SMTP id w12mr2442847ljm.8.1599670584088; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 09:56:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 09:56:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org, BIER WG Chairs , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec1b9605aee454a4" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:56:28 -0000 --000000000000ec1b9605aee454a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear WG Chairs, we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the draft. Dear Authors, thank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is elegant and presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also a number of nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions: - In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHOULD: For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisioned with and signal the same BAR and IPA values. Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require a change of the text that follows? - Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language? It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both algorithm and constraints semantics. >From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for a router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a default value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to state that explicitly. - There is a pair of requirements in Section 2: When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable? Nits: - AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead reference an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401". - rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322 ) explain that: Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles and upon first use in the document. The full expansion of the text should be followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses. Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that rule. - BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use. - s/a IPA/an IPA/ - s/a RCRA/an RCRA/ - s/with semantics/ with the semantics/ - s/are augmented/is augmented/ - s/secuity/security/ - s/thanks/thank/ Regards, Greg --000000000000ec1b9605aee454a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear WG Chairs,
we're waiting for one author to re= spond to the IPR poll on the draft.

Dear Authors,
th= ank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is elegant and= presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also a number of= nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions:
  • In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values = uses SHOULD:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For a particular sub-domain, all routers= SHOULD be provisioned with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and signal the same BAR = and IPA values.
Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and= would not require a change of the text that follows?
  • Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language?
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm and constraints semantics.
    From the text that f= ollows, it seems that both semantics are required for a router to calculate= the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a default value of a se= mantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to state that explicitly.<= br>
    • There is a pair of requirements in Section 2:
      • <= /ul>
      =C2=A0 = =C2=A0When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics=C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be specified.=C2=A0 For a new IGP Algorithm to be used a= s a BIER IPA,
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.
      Th= e last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make R= C/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable?Nits:
      • AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text= , instead reference an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401"= .
      • rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322) explain that:
      = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles and upon f= irst
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0use in the document.=C2=A0 The full expansion of the t= ext should be
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0followed by the abbreviation itself in parent= heses.
      Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that r= ule.
      • BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first u= se.
      • s/a IPA/an IPA/
      • s/a RCRA/an RCRA/
      • s/with semant= ics/ with the semantics/
      • s/are augmented/is augmented/
      • s/se= cuity/security/
      • s/thanks/thank/

      Regards,
      Greg

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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR05MB5981.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a536afdd-dfbc-4e4c-92b1-08d85500010c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Sep 2020 20:36:17.7977 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: eybWWoSenLMdyQ3lBrHdNcQCaIf4HRqTXD+jSLinOmjiJzs25kke0hA8n/0LK+FuhaW21ZSiyw1U/APMilYpWQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB6560 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-09-09_16:2020-09-09, 2020-09-09 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009090183 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question: X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 20:36:29 -0000 Hi Jingrong, The draft says that the x-PMSI routes carry the following: o Route MUST also carry an BGP Prefix SID attribute with an SRv6 L3 Service TLV carrying an Src.DTx IPv6 address uniquely identifying the MVPN instance. So this is supposedly to be the counter part of an upstream assigned label = - in fact both the context (ingress PE) and upstream label are encoded into= the same source address. Section 6.1 talks about encapsulation but does not talk about decapsulation= . Supposedly the Src.DTx, instead of destination address is used to identif= y the VRF table for the next lookup. Since the (Ingress PE, VPN) combinatio= n could be huge as described in section 2.1 of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-evpn-ag= gregation-label addressed, how is the scaling addressed? Presumably the same concept of "DCB label" can be used - encoded into the f= unction portion of the source address - in that case that should be adverti= sed as part of the label field of PTA, and it must be made clear that only = the function portion of the source address is used for lookup, and every PE= must agree which part of the addresses is the function portion. In case of inter-AS scenario, BIERv6 packets may travel through unicast to a Boarder Router (BR), and then replicate in a single intra-AS BIERv6 domain. How such non-segmented BIERv6 scenario can be supported is outside the scope of this document. Can you elaborate the above scenario (BIERv6 packets unicast to BR and then= replicated)? Is it a scenario that must be supported? How segmented MVPN, for example, between BIERv6 and BIERv6, or between BIERv6 and Ingress Replication(IR) in Non-MPLS IPv6 networks, is outside the scope of this document. When/where would the above two scenarios (non-segmented and segmented) be c= overed? Thanks. Jeffrey Juniper Business Use Only From nobody Wed Sep 9 16:38:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A2F3A0831 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 16:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cumlDL4OGf1m for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mscrn01.lguplus.co.kr (mscrn01.lguplus.co.kr [210.96.194.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F613A0832 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 16:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO mailwas02.lguplus.co.kr) (172.20.41.156) by 172.20.32.131 with ESMTP; 10 Sep 2020 08:38:03 +0900 X-Original-SENDERIP: 172.20.41.156 X-Original-MAILFROM: himzzang@lguplus.co.kr Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by mailwas02.lguplus.co.kr ([127.0.0.1]) with ESMTP id 1599694683.584458.139997296363264.mailwas02 for <>; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:38:03 +0900 (KST) X-Priority: 3 X-UPLUS-DO-NOT-FORWARD: off Message-ID: <1168895848.1599694683583.JavaMail.root@pwmlap2v> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:38:03 +0900 (KST) From: =?UTF-8?B?7Iug66y07LC9L+yxheyehA==?= Reply-To: =?UTF-8?B?7Iug66y07LC9L+yxheyehA==?= To: bier-ads@ietf.org, BIER WG , BIER WG Chairs , draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org, Greg Mirsky X-TERRACE-DUMMYSUBJECT: Terrace Spam system * In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3335288_1191250695.1599694683583" X-TERRACE-SPAMMARK: NOT spam-marked. (by Terrace) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 23:38:11 -0000 ------=_Part_3335288_1191250695.1599694683583 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am not aware of any IPRs Regards,Moochang Shin ------------------- Original Message -------------------From : "Greg Mirsky" (gregimirsky@gmail.com)To : "draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org" (draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org) "BIER WG Chairs" (bier-chairs@ietf.org) "BIER WG" (bier@ietf.org) "bier-ads@ietf.org" (bier-ads@ietf.org)Date : 2020/08/29 토요일 오전 9:13:39Subject : [Bier] IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa Hi Authors, et al, I was assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the email archive, I couldn't find your responses to the IPR Poll. Hence, as an important step in preparing to advance this document, could you please respond to this the list to confirm whether you are aware of IPR that applies to this document. Common replies include: * No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has already been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has not yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in the datatracker in a timely way. * I am aware of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to this document but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR disclosure in a timely way. Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are encouraged to make the necessary disclosures. In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up. Regards,Greg M._______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier ------=_Part_3335288_1191250695.1599694683583 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    I am not aware of any IPRs


    Regards,

    Moochang Shin


    ------------------- Original Message -------------------

    From : "Greg Mirsky" (gregimirsky@gmail.com)

    To : "draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org" (draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org)
            "BIER WG Chairs" (bier-chairs@ietf.org)
            "BIER WG" (bier@ietf.org)
            "bier-ads@ietf.org" (bier-ads@ietf.org)

    Date : 2020/08/29 토요일 오전 9:13:39

    Subject : [Bier] IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa



    Hi Authors, et al,

    I was assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the email archive, I couldn't find your responses to the IPR Poll. Hence, as an important step in preparing to advance this document, could you please respond to this the list to confirm whether you are aware of IPR that applies to this document.

    Common replies include:

    * No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document

    * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has already been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker.

    * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has not yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in the datatracker in a timely way.

    * I am aware of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to this document but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR disclosure in a timely way.

    Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are encouraged to make the necessary disclosures.  

    In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up.

    Regards,
    Greg M.
    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
    ------=_Part_3335288_1191250695.1599694683583-- From nobody Wed Sep 9 20:04:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A993A0B68; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 20:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id STWf9zwc_h_F; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 20:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x629.google.com (mail-ej1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E14883A0B65; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 20:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x629.google.com with SMTP id r7so6461052ejs.11; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 20:04:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=6Ks3rSTITaAqBYt/gBedL0ijopb8yhJsLylscjnKqxE=; b=slKetSClQtJagmXcRs8ecrIOQeKhi/7Y7GtFQPAFLwBNRS5Wg77DNiAFkHcKFoWDVU blFWi2+GgQwhssdCZ+TcxMZcP6o4oWNfXaiD+Ja84MqBEckQM7OH45tVnoewuwfe3q1H sznzCX6G6P/CkCvoI9PK42l29JoHqpZ9BLB30D6598YAQ4DSsy94lStZdEyp4keWc5gU 27w9CovmbLOhLa+E2zc4Lr4Nv4V3JlM0JqwiiklrJ7TWaX9z7kUZm/4UBRFkSdQi/zPP fc1CxrtqCSTxj7DN6ZW5EbtapMB90dIa4Ga/lAy6gK3yo8VG5Nyh/ffZ3kRdSWxKxgVx GxrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6Ks3rSTITaAqBYt/gBedL0ijopb8yhJsLylscjnKqxE=; b=AXWPEC1h+kvXiVXQsEkkEMLw/UEGL/no40DPMoIuOi5wTBb5E6k1JMDCi6S007jide RAu0VOHpYoi2sqCQte+DjAnw7wH/kkoHGu0Thi0UXCpwBPEDlbIkGYhSVy2TDYjqD1NK YjrAdlg25cCTylGbJTrzbaC51dqNs6pQcl+s2jQpwecFqp8M5vY3HfYqO25XaUKm2jNI Fa2Addx54eL9TdRks5U1homSNWdkhCkZuNrz7kMZfZOU7DGtjWVXDL7captKJ170kzOI jhv+kIfFO6JznH3bm/acje8QDj8piorThtNB+BEvnuvfwzmQOYxFQJoux5IBZnPzNPNi Xskg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533/YHDPbn7bE//ynx75wFrAor3URP4UMy8KdYTqF5yfO33dG0FH y+NTf4sRjLE40/CTZtIULcaFL0LB6hg+LgK8UIc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRq552L3xw3mdZbe8Pr7JJte89QZzu4YLbvWghURMmogTrwTKZgz4c2qRkhupHAYmeGTSlbe8oNcZhZd6qa5A= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:2a17:: with SMTP id j23mr6453827eje.146.1599707045524; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 20:04:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 20:04:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org, BIER WG Chairs , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000031775805aeecd2ab" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 03:04:09 -0000 --00000000000031775805aeecd2ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks Greg, et al. The draft is currently expired. Can the authors refresh then we can move it to the queue. - Shep On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:56 AM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear WG Chairs, > we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the draft. > > Dear Authors, > thank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is elegant > and presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also a number > of nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions: > > - In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses > SHOULD: > > For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisioned with > and signal the same BAR and IPA values. > > Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require a change > of the text that follows? > > > - Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language? > > It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both > algorithm and constraints semantics. > From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for > a router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a > default value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to > state that explicitly. > > > - There is a pair of requirements in Section 2: > > When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics > MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, > its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. > The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to > make RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable? > > Nits: > > - AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead > reference an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401". > - rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322 > ) explain that: > > Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles and upon first > use in the document. The full expansion of the text should be > followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses. > > Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that rule. > > > - BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use. > - s/a IPA/an IPA/ > - s/a RCRA/an RCRA/ > - s/with semantics/ with the semantics/ > - s/are augmented/is augmented/ > - s/secuity/security/ > - s/thanks/thank/ > > > Regards, > Greg > > --00000000000031775805aeecd2ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Thanks Greg, et al.

    The draft is curren= tly expired. Can the authors refresh then we can move it to the queue.=C2= =A0

    - Shep=C2=A0

    On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:56 = AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gma= il.com> wrote:
    Dear WG Ch= airs,
    we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on th= e draft.

    Dear Authors,
    thank you for the well-writte= n document. The proposed solution is elegant and presented clearly. I have = several comments and questions. Also a number of nits that may be worth you= r attention. First, comments and questions:
    • In Section 2 = the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHOULD:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisione= d with
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0and signal the same BAR and IPA values.
    =
    Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not requ= ire a change of the text that follows?
    • Could the = following benefit from the use of the normative language?
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0= It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0algorithm and constraints semantics.
    From the text that follows, i= t seems that both semantics are required for a router to calculate the unde= rlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a default value of a semantic? I= f that is the case, it would be helpful to state that explicitly.
    • There is a pair of requirements in Section 2:
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics
    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be specified.=C2=A0 For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as= a BIER IPA,
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.
    The= last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make RC= /RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable?Nits:
    • AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text,= instead reference an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401".=
    • rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322) = explain that:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Abbreviations should be expanded in doc= ument titles and upon first
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0use in the document.=C2=A0 The = full expansion of the text should be
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0followed by the abbrev= iation itself in parentheses.
    Several cases, e.g., BAR and= IPA, don't follow that rule.
    • BFR (Section 2) n= eeds expansion on the first use.
    • s/a IPA/an IPA/
    • s/a RCRA/a= n RCRA/
    • s/with semantics/ with the semantics/
    • s/are augment= ed/is augmented/
    • s/secuity/security/
    • s/thanks/thank/

      • Regards,
    Greg

    --00000000000031775805aeecd2ab-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 00:41:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFFB3A0FEB for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 00:41:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gB7VUcVhUUgl for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 00:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6A213A0FE4 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 00:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml723-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 63DC7EF3C39F16295183 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:41:21 +0100 (IST) Received: from nkgeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.158) by lhreml723-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:41:20 +0100 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.158) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:41:18 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:41:18 +0800 From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , BIER WG Thread-Topic: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question: Thread-Index: AdZw6Yw4P4783jMOTziUSmhOVRVLCQWUiiOg Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:41:17 +0000 Message-ID: <5c3edd2a5a4444779e953542e5dfb720@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.201.174] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question: X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:41:27 -0000 Hi Jeffrey,=20 Appreciate sincerely for raising discussions about the draft. Please see my response inline below marked with [xjr] Thanks Jingrong -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 4:36 AM To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; BIER WG Subject: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question:=20 Hi Jingrong, The draft says that the x-PMSI routes carry the following: o Route MUST also carry an BGP Prefix SID attribute with an SRv6 L3 Service TLV carrying an Src.DTx IPv6 address uniquely identifying the MVPN instance. So this is supposedly to be the counter part of an upstream assigned label = - in fact both the context (ingress PE) and upstream label are encoded into= the same source address. [xjr] Yes, very precisely. The source address is very similar to the upstre= am label and its context. Section 6.1 talks about encapsulation but does not talk about decapsulation= . Supposedly the Src.DTx, instead of destination address is used to identif= y the VRF table for the next lookup.=20 [xjr] General consideration is to set this Source-address lookup as default= behavior for c-multicast packet decapsulation, and provide some configurat= ion knob to change that. Since the (Ingress PE, VPN) combination could be huge as described in secti= on 2.1 of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label addressed, how is the= scaling addressed? [xjr] Yes, draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label presents a scaling p= roblem (as below text copied from the document).=20 Suppose an MVPN or EVPN deployment has 1001 PEs, each hosting 1000 VPN/BDs. Each ingress PE has to assign 1000 labels, and each egress PE has to be prepared to interpret 1000 labels from each of the ingress PEs. This scaling problem is common to MVPN/EVPN, and this draft has the same sc= aling problem too. One point to mention, some MVPN service may not want a full-meshed MP2MP mo= del, but an asymmetrical P2MP model with small number of "Sender sites" and= large number of "Receiver sites" [RFC6513 section 2.3]. This scaling problem can be relieved in such case. Presumably the same concept of "DCB label" can be used - encoded into the f= unction portion of the source address - in that case that should be adverti= sed as part of the label field of PTA, and it must be made clear that only = the function portion of the source address is used for lookup, and every PE= must agree which part of the addresses is the function portion. [xjr] Good idea to apply the "DCB label" solution to solve the problem! To advertise such indication from Ingress PE to Egress PE is a good way to = keep alignment between them. It can also detect possible confliction (for example, Ingress PE support th= is method but Egress PE doesn't). Use configuration knob independently on Ingress PE and Egress PE may also b= e reasonable ? Besides, would you think it necessary to extend the "DCB label" to 24bit to= cover the VNI length ? In case of inter-AS scenario, BIERv6 packets may travel through unicast to a Boarder Router (BR), and then replicate in a single intra-AS BIERv6 domain. How such non-segmented BIERv6 scenario can be supported is outside the scope of this document. Can you elaborate the above scenario (BIERv6 packets unicast to BR and then= replicated)? Is it a scenario that must be supported? [xjr] The above scenario is covered in ,= so it is not covered in this document, as this document mainly focuses on = the "BGP-MVPN" protocol extension. [xjr] It's an optional scenario I think. How segmented MVPN, for example, between BIERv6 and BIERv6, or between BIERv6 and Ingress Replication(IR) in Non-MPLS IPv6 networks, is outside the scope of this document. When/where would the above two scenarios (non-segmented and segmented) be c= overed? [xjr] A simple non-segmented inter-AS consideration (using some configurati= on for inter-AS BIFT construction) is covered in . Seems to me that there is no much "BGP-MVPN" protocol extension needed for = non-segmented MVPN, and the main challenge is the underlay inter-AS BIFT co= nstruction. is an example using BGP for i= nter-AS BIER information advertisement and BIFT construction for non-segmen= ted inter-AS deployment. [xjr] Haven't considered segmented MVPN in detail yet, Will come back if I = have any further thoughts. Thanks. 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Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:03:54 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , BIER WG Thread-Topic: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question: Thread-Index: AdZw6Yw4P4783jMOTziUSmhOVRVLCQWUiiOgAAktZIA= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:03:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5c3edd2a5a4444779e953542e5dfb720@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5c3edd2a5a4444779e953542e5dfb720@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-09-10T12:03:51Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=ee32e764-fb07-419c-b440-58a17cbb1e90; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.5.0.60 dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: huawei.com; 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Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) =20 Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 3:41 AM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; BIER WG Subject: RE: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question:=20 [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi Jeffrey, Appreciate sincerely for raising discussions about the draft. Please see my response inline below marked with [xjr] Thanks Jingrong -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 4:36 AM To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; BIER WG Subject: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question: Hi Jingrong, The draft says that the x-PMSI routes carry the following: o Route MUST also carry an BGP Prefix SID attribute with an SRv6 L3 Service TLV carrying an Src.DTx IPv6 address uniquely identifying the MVPN instance. So this is supposedly to be the counter part of an upstream assigned label = - in fact both the context (ingress PE) and upstream label are encoded into= the same source address. [xjr] Yes, very precisely. The source address is very similar to the upstre= am label and its context. Section 6.1 talks about encapsulation but does not talk about decapsulation= . Supposedly the Src.DTx, instead of destination address is used to identif= y the VRF table for the next lookup. [xjr] General consideration is to set this Source-address lookup as default= behavior for c-multicast packet decapsulation, and provide some configurat= ion knob to change that. Since the (Ingress PE, VPN) combination could be huge as described in secti= on 2.1 of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label addressed, how is the= scaling addressed? [xjr] Yes, draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-evpn-aggregation-label presents a scaling p= roblem (as below text copied from the document). Suppose an MVPN or EVPN deployment has 1001 PEs, each hosting 1000 VPN/BDs. Each ingress PE has to assign 1000 labels, and each egress PE has to be prepared to interpret 1000 labels from each of the ingress PEs. This scaling problem is common to MVPN/EVPN, and this draft has the same sc= aling problem too. One point to mention, some MVPN service may not want a full-meshed MP2MP mo= del, but an asymmetrical P2MP model with small number of "Sender sites" and= large number of "Receiver sites" [RFC6513 section 2.3]. This scaling problem can be relieved in such case. Zzh> While this draft is about MVPN (though you did talk about VNI below), = there is no reason to have a different solution for EVPN, in which case eve= ry PE could be a BFIR. Presumably the same concept of "DCB label" can be used - encoded into the f= unction portion of the source address - in that case that should be adverti= sed as part of the label field of PTA, and it must be made clear that only = the function portion of the source address is used for lookup, and every PE= must agree which part of the addresses is the function portion. [xjr] Good idea to apply the "DCB label" solution to solve the problem! To advertise such indication from Ingress PE to Egress PE is a good way to = keep alignment between them. It can also detect possible confliction (for example, Ingress PE support th= is method but Egress PE doesn't). Use configuration knob independently on Ingress PE and Egress PE may also b= e reasonable ? Zzh> Whether by signaling or by configuration, the key point is that the eg= ress must carve out the same function portion of the source address for loo= kup. My understanding is that the locater/function/argument portions are no= t fixed. Besides, would you think it necessary to extend the "DCB label" to 24bit to= cover the VNI length ? Zzh> This is already covered in RFC8365: For the balance of this memo, the above MPLS label fields will be referred to as the VNI field. The VNI field is used for both local and global VNIs, and for either case the entire 24-bit field is used to encode the VNI value. ------------------------------ In case of inter-AS scenario, BIERv6 packets may travel through unicast to a Boarder Router (BR), and then replicate in a single intra-AS BIERv6 domain. How such non-segmented BIERv6 scenario can be supported is outside the scope of this document. Can you elaborate the above scenario (BIERv6 packets unicast to BR and then= replicated)? Is it a scenario that must be supported? [xjr] The above scenario is covered in ,= so it is not covered in this document, as this document mainly focuses on = the "BGP-MVPN" protocol extension. [xjr] It's an optional scenario I think. Zzh> If you're referring to the "peering" model in that draft, which is ver= y controversy, it's better to not mention it here at all. That entire draft= should be adequately discussed before other drafts start referring to it. How segmented MVPN, for example, between BIERv6 and BIERv6, or between BIERv6 and Ingress Replication(IR) in Non-MPLS IPv6 networks, is outside the scope of this document. When/where would the above two scenarios (non-segmented and segmented) be c= overed? [xjr] A simple non-segmented inter-AS consideration (using some configurati= on for inter-AS BIFT construction) is covered in . Seems to me that there is no much "BGP-MVPN" protocol extension needed for = non-segmented MVPN, and the main challenge is the underlay inter-AS BIFT co= nstruction. Zzh> I agree the BIFT construction is not the concern of this document - wh= ether segmentation is used or not - and we don't even need to list BIFT con= struction as "out of scope" (this is referring to the non-segmentation case= earlier). is an example using BGP for i= nter-AS BIER information advertisement and BIFT construction for non-segmen= ted inter-AS deployment. [xjr] Haven't considered segmented MVPN in detail yet, Will come back if I = have any further thoughts. Zzh> So the segmentation is not "out of the scope" (otherwise there is no c= omplete solution) - it should be "for further study" or "provided in future= revisions". Zzh> Thanks. Zzh> Jeffrey Thanks. Jeffrey Juniper Business Use Only From nobody Thu Sep 10 05:40:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9103A0853 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:40:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id es-DzEJ6jgty for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5AD33A084A for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2228B9541C53EAF828E5 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:40:13 +0100 (IST) Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:40:12 +0100 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 20:40:10 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 20:40:10 +0800 From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , BIER WG Thread-Topic: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question: Thread-Index: AdZw6Yw4P4783jMOTziUSmhOVRVLCQWUiiOgAAktZIAAA2fmEA== Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:40:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5c3edd2a5a4444779e953542e5dfb720@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.201.174] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question: X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:40:16 -0000 Hi Jeffrey, Thanks for your response ! Please see below inline (stripped unneeded text) marked with [xjr2]. Thanks Jingrong -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 8:04 PM To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; BIER WG Subject: RE: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question:=20 Jingrong, Please see zzh> below. Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) =20 Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 3:41 AM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; BIER WG Subject: RE: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question:=20 [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi Jeffrey, Appreciate sincerely for raising discussions about the draft. Please see my response inline below marked with [xjr] Thanks Jingrong -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 4:36 AM To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; BIER WG Subject: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn question: Zzh> While this draft is about MVPN (though you did talk about VNI below), = there is no reason to have a different solution for EVPN, in which case eve= ry PE could be a BFIR. [xjr2] OK. This draft has the same scaling problem surely, and DCB/VNI is p= articularly needed for such MP2MP model. Zzh> Whether by signaling or by configuration, the key point is that the eg= ress must carve out the same function portion of the source address for loo= kup. My understanding is that the locater/function/argument portions are no= t fixed. [xjr2] Got it! Besides, would you think it necessary to extend the "DCB label" to 24bit to= cover the VNI length ? Zzh> This is already covered in RFC8365: [xjr2] Thanks ! Good to see the example exactly! Can you elaborate the above scenario (BIERv6 packets unicast to BR and then= replicated)? Is it a scenario that must be supported? [xjr] The above scenario is covered in ,= so it is not covered in this document, as this document mainly focuses on = the "BGP-MVPN" protocol extension. Zzh> If you're referring to the "peering" model in that draft, which is ver= y controversy, it's better to not mention it here at all. That entire draft= should be adequately discussed before other drafts start referring to it. [xjr2] Got it! When/where would the above two scenarios (non-segmented and segmented) be c= overed? Zzh> I agree the BIFT construction is not the concern of this document - wh= ether segmentation is used or not - and we don't even need to list BIFT con= struction as "out of scope" (this is referring to the non-segmentation case= earlier). [xjr2] Got it!=20 [xjr] Haven't considered segmented MVPN in detail yet, Will come back if I = have any further thoughts. Zzh> So the segmentation is not "out of the scope" (otherwise there is no c= omplete solution) - it should be "for further study" or "provided in future= revisions". [xjr2] Good to learn the distinction of these terms in draft writing! Thank= s! Zzh> Thanks. Zzh> Jeffrey Thanks. Jeffrey Juniper Business Use Only From nobody Thu Sep 10 13:56:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33FB3A0801; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:56:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.16.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <159977141460.6717.8870987685150213640@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:56:54 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-12.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 20:56:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER Use Cases Authors : Nagendra Kumar Rajiv Asati Mach(Guoyi) Chen Xiaohu Xu Andrew Dolganow Tony Przygienda Arkadiy Gulko Dom Robinson Vishal Arya Caitlin Bestler Filename : draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-12.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-09-10 Abstract: Bit Index Explicit Replication (BIER) is an architecture that provides optimal multicast forwarding through a "BIER domain" without requiring intermediate routers to maintain any multicast related per- flow state. BIER also does not require any explicit tree-building protocol for its operation. A multicast data packet enters a BIER domain at a "Bit-Forwarding Ingress Router" (BFIR), and leaves the BIER domain at one or more "Bit-Forwarding Egress Routers" (BFERs). The BFIR router adds a BIER header to the packet. The BIER header contains a bit-string in which each bit represents exactly one BFER to forward the packet to. The set of BFERs to which the multicast packet needs to be forwarded is expressed by setting the bits that correspond to those routers in the BIER header. This document describes some of the use cases for BIER. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-12 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-use-cases-12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Sep 10 14:30:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFB73A08ED; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:30:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3BIt8SuT06RO; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E63E33A08D4; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id j2so8812546ioj.7; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:29:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9Lb8LspoZshSe0/8AXrC3TVT0xxSdd5s1liUG1BVcC4=; b=C85JFkiOeo/JOlv1gCoANs0p5KnQ1hZtjXXb1DiAcgxkvyfxKcC8U1dSOdnlvp5TGb iOVjQ/0dUsDPDtsOPpFekm3Cy+KxKHxYEm9kCagf8lvQuuVsxHza3DBnYEDJt4o/gJcg O9FngWO9c80TMnWcr96E4al0rjfyhHRwj3sEWDokSkyBgB9o36Ytm4hcoXSH+278jcbK u9kfUQhJNRPoEOk9e/2H5fGia9cbrvTvgEUNGMDgwCzKxEIs++x1PcP0w13ByYq79oh8 ePjg8tVOjEfkb+nKEynIy7McaUHtlvSCtl9sAS2jpD4ushs9QqmGXqUeQdSXmLSHxK2i xB+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9Lb8LspoZshSe0/8AXrC3TVT0xxSdd5s1liUG1BVcC4=; b=LjpODby4lrsbZJu6AWMWcSJc4RsoUxZYdMnMO2OgjQfYWN6JYYFeROb1HuzsR7dJqD XS3zboCbv20Ac4FYwGNQ4d8f7v/GbDlSUxawvh5zGRqrtA3MCQxr+6zhfq6LTCzVyMnG UsVuGG91clUc3z8ciHOxADwPAWh6adqd9ZOsCM4BZzycEBWQPeq36anRp8Mu/KZ1Km3K FaaY+K6Z8Et2EKhE73Ja3LrBXIhazBTiuxwy/+xbAkUQbhK4JD8IfgZV2FGkkBrMJDjZ dIgBYWN6V3njlI40dnJ+6WrEdD7GXg8gKu4c16FNp2i9VfKXrwXP+37ntqxZYySfKVE9 iMYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FTmEzw/+aJQL0Zph5Vdw0yLm0Q1DxY+scHZNhHS3L3SCQ9pTy JNs9nOEyjGtsE9uUkcW4KdwU2wj9I9KyFFGshRU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJye8HgHk3/tGPqFLeHrvw1PijiWG6GZqxiv6MypJY6mT0nLN5l3NfJPsfESXrv2V5Xp1qq5ZAybVJsjiB+/+rU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:11cc:: with SMTP id g12mr10301467jas.113.1599773398325; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:29:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:29:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org, BIER WG Chairs , BIER WG , bier-ads@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000020ddc705aefc45c9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] IPR poll on draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 21:30:00 -0000 --00000000000020ddc705aefc45c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" not aware of any IPA On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 5:13 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Authors, et al, > > I was assigned as the Shepherd of this document. Looking through the email > archive, I couldn't find your responses to the IPR Poll. Hence, as an > important step in preparing to advance this document, could you please > respond to this the list to confirm whether you are aware of IPR that > applies to this document. > > Common replies include: > > * No, I am not aware of any IPR that applies to this document > > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, and it has already > been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracker. > > * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it has not yet > been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded in the > datatracker in a timely way. > > * I am aware of IPR held by a third party that might be applicable to this > document but has not been disclosed. I will make a third-party IPR > disclosure in a timely way. > > Other members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are > encouraged to make the necessary disclosures. > > In the meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up. > > Regards, > Greg M. > --00000000000020ddc705aefc45c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    not aware of any IPA

    On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 5:13 PM Gr= eg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.co= m> wrote:
    Hi Authors, et al,

    I was=C2=A0assigned as the Shep= herd of this document. Looking through the email archive, I couldn't fi= nd your responses to the IPR Poll. Hence, as an important=C2=A0step in prep= aring to advance this document, could you please respond to this the list t= o confirm whether you are aware of IPR that applies to this document.
    Common replies include:

    * No, I am not aware of any IPR that appli= es to this document

    * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this do= cument, and it has already been disclosed and is recorded in the datatracke= r.

    * Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to this document, but it ha= s not yet been disclosed. I will ensure that it is disclosed and recorded i= n the datatracker in a timely way.

    * I am aware of IPR held by a thi= rd party that might be applicable to this document but has not been disclos= ed. I will make a third-party IPR disclosure in a timely way.

    Other = members of the WG who are aware of IPR related to this work are encouraged = to make the necessary disclosures.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    In th= e meantime, I'll work on my comments and the write-up.

    Regards,
    Greg M.
    --00000000000020ddc705aefc45c9-- From nobody Mon Sep 14 13:29:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4533A0EEB; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 13:29:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hd_QEIM4pKZO; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 13:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62f.google.com (mail-ej1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEACB3A0D44; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 13:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id gr14so1870732ejb.1; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 13:29:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=UkAZaoEQLCzjafjCFIhKNCJLbwQr1ZTJfr5HNcNQs9c=; b=kPzPx8A4oR/kjLDaYYhJzITugb4orAn147DV900m9gvVi1w8sOK3dVVJs/jktbcIEp sXSy1ZP2KOYPACMBiwM+apctm+UNuwx1p0tVnY1GhZKefZ76HT4uYTCXTisXgNkUHCWT rNx11RFJYGDBrsYZh5Uw5CEc+DykFwEIH33f8bZ7BXxqChO/PKxRi9kJ/QkNrqyVJaT/ viBmFKpWKwetPUIJ2lJfldPSjNl/ldoTfgTM3VZrJUlkP1JDFVfqNVLxVYLDeYwsjwrR 9icOun5hUaBxmwlZqNX8+vdmR6pkbzMnyfgXN0ZdCYZssK+q7oqizcGKdqYwqoR0BcQh d8aw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UkAZaoEQLCzjafjCFIhKNCJLbwQr1ZTJfr5HNcNQs9c=; b=EmZKBYMxwj/0HBj13H/EgVLD48SFZWQaIpDHLEelKzyQcSaJze2ttD12BL56WzNvuL khYWy0JzvX1cWS4KCJNlnxAkZdsr4iqzz5CrVn6qZtKI4mhzFtdtaiGqJOmSvifeqRNf Mo+z7qsmW7VNkOYIuwOZtcBqmmSpGqimc3X3oeDQHuMu54eJZikNXXkxtFyIrJw8VSqz nIV3ACXk2uHU1oZEqoiy84sgTqAxihRJ/82WPKIK1NP8wOKjPSphiT8fLntDamY9UFMG x9/kz34NSrqhV5BZMH4O4rycKyPOouFL8UzYdIGVxo6FN/efOR6QlnzFrBcexBx+kn9w yL9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QBU23iY755ol70R2viJWb/CdMgzfG8kruVE/rGi2PVLVlgz8R Yj8qHanJRMVZmcJ79GNhHpPLEivfhWW/kkY3Q5b6FPGp X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFuSUQwPAxbIAy/ygPhCxMMWYI1qJGhtQdMhg10XGIf2nechKGD8N1YmiYbLEomNArrTZTmOqgP+2+0sEUf+k= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:2a17:: with SMTP id j23mr16203620eje.146.1600115369121; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 13:29:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 13:29:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: Stig Venaas , "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" , BIER WG , Ijsbrand Wijnands , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Antoni Przygienda Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d1b4905af4be4f1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 20:29:34 -0000 --0000000000002d1b4905af4be4f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It appears that issues have been addressed as per the list discussion of July 28th. The latest rev was posted July 29th, I assume with the agreed changes, correct? Let's do a quick 1 week WGLC to confirm the latest rev. Please respond to this thread by Sept 27th. Thanks, Shep (chairs) On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 2:35 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > Thanks Stig! > > Inline HB> > > Regards > > Hooman > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stig Venaas > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 4:56 PM > To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) > Cc: gjshep@gmail.com; Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>; BIER WG ; Ijsbrand Wijnands < > ice@cisco.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.org; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang < > zzhang@juniper.net>; Antoni Przygienda > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ > > Hi > > It looks like most of the issues I found have been resolved now. But most > importantly, the IANA Considerations still say that there are none. This > needs to be fixed! > > HB> Done, Add it for the join attribute TLV that you got away from in the > other draft ;) > > I see a couple of places where it says PIM signaling message or PIM > signaling packet. I think it should say PIM join/prune message, or PIM > join/prune packet., > > HB> > Changed to PIM join/prune in section 3 because this was the PIM domain > join/prune. "it will generate a PIM join/prune packet toward its attached > PIM domain." > Any where else that the pim signaling is left is actually the BIER > signaling the join/prune through the bier network as such I wanted it to be > clear that these are signalling packet and not extending the PIM over the > BIER domain. > > : > > > Regards, > Stig > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:51 AM Stig Venaas wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > This is good work and I generally support the document. There are > > however some issues that need to be addressed. I also think it would > > be good to get this reviewed in the pim WG, perhaps you can ask for > > reviews on the pim list. > > > > I mostly have editorial comments that are easy to address. But at a > > high level I think some more text about pim is needed. > > > > PIM relies on hello messages to know what capabilities a router has, > > e.g. whether it support Join attributes, whether it support BIDIR etc. > > I think you need to point out what capabilities are assumed to be > > present. Obviously it is assumed that Join attributes are supported. > > It may also be good to point out that there is no J/P suppression as > > the J/P is only sent to the target, and not to other routers. Also > > point out that only J/P messages are used, and that there is no assert > > processing. > > > > > > Below are the editorial comments. Please also check the "nits" > > tool. It complains about missing references, and it cannot find the > > "Authors' Addresses" section. The heading is missing. > > > > Also Section 7 must be updated. There is an IANA action, but it says > > there are none! > > > > The abstract is rather long. Suggest removing some of the text that > > explains the general operation of BIER. > > > > Some of the references might need some work. In section 2 it says "RFC > > 2119 [RFC2119]". Should it be just "[RFC2119]"? Also the reference is > > missing. In 2.1 it says "[I-D. rfc8279]" which also needs to be > > fixed. Most of the other references look fine. > > In 3.1 there seems to be a reference to 8279 without brackets though. > > > > In 2.1, BFR definition. Missing space after ".". > > > > BFIR definition: It says "insert the BM into the packet", but I think > > it might be better to say that it performs BIER encapsulation. The > > term BM is not defined. It says "plain" instead of "plane". > > > > BFER defintion: Do we have to say that BFER is a BFR? In that case, we > > should also say that BFIR is a BFR. It says "plain" instead of "plane". > > > > IBBR and EBBR, might it be good to include "signaling" in the name, > > like Ingress Signaling BIER Router and Egress Signaling BIER Router? I > > want it to be very clear that ingress and egress are not related to data. > > > > In "Figure 1" I think "bfir" and "bfer" should be upper case. > > > > In 3.1: > > "weather" should be "whether". > > "located on" should probably be "located in". > > > > In 3.1 there is this paragraph that I think need some changes. > > > > After discovering the EBBR and its BFR-ID (flooded via IGP BIER > > extension), the IBBR will construct a PIM Join Attribute encoded as > > > > It says that BFR-ID is flooded via IGP BIER extension. That isn't > > necessarily true, do we need to explain how the BFR-ID is discovered? > > > > TLVs into the Source Address field of the PIM Join Message as per > > > > Isn't it just one TLV? I think you can skip saying that it is a TLV in > > the source address field. Just say that it includes a new PIM Join > > Attribute in the Join/Prune message. Also note that we should really > > say Join/Prune, not just Join. > > > > [RFC5384] and include it in PIM signaling message. Two new "BIER > > > > I think it is better to be clear and say PIM Join/Prune message. > > > > IBBR" attributes are define and explained in upcoming section. The > > s/define/defined > > > > PIM Join Attribute is used on EBBR to obtain necessary bier > > s/bier/BIER > > information to build its multicast states. In addition the IBBR will > > change the PIM signaling packet source IP address to its BIER prefix > > address (standard PIM procedure). It will also keep the destination > > address as the well known multicast IP address. It then will > > construct the BIER header. The signaling packet, in this case the PIM > > join/prune packet, is encapsulated in the BIER header and transported > > through BIER domain to EBBR. > > > > The language at the end here makes it sound like the PIM J/P is being > > forwarded and that the J/P is being modified. But J/P messages are > > sent hop-by-hop. Each router originates a new J/P. For instance, a > > router may receive a J/P for multiple sources. These sources may have > > different RPF neighbors on the receiving router and hence be split > > into separate join messages. This could happen on the IBBR as well. > > > > The lasts paragraph in section 3 says: > > The IBBR will track all the PIM interfaces on the attached PIM domain > > which are interested in a certain (S,G). It creates multicast states > > for arriving (S,G)s from PIM domain, with incoming interface as BIER > > "tunnel" interface and outgoing interface as the PIM domain > > interface(s) on which PIM Join(s) were received on. > > > > The IBBR is a PIM router and what you are describing is standard PIM > > behavior, so I think this is a bit redundant. It might be goot to > > stress that OIFs are adding according to standard PIM behavior. The > > only special here is the RPF interface. > > > > Section 3.1.4: > > In heading Pim/PIM > > bier/BIER > > > > It says "PIM Join Attribute [RFC5384] is used." I think it might be > > good to say that "a new PIM Join Attribute is used". And then also > > this sentence "The PIM Join Attribute format is as follow:" should > > perhaps be The new PIM Join Attribute format is defined as follows:". > > > > s/Ipv4/IPv4 > > s/Ipv6/IPv6 > > > > In the format I think it might be good to not just show "BIER info", > > but show the formatting of prefix, SD and BFR-ID explicitly. Also, it > > should state clearly that these are the prefix, SD and BFR-id of the > IBBR. > > > > In 3.1.4.1 why not say PIM Join/Prune packet instead of PIM signaling? > > > > In 3.3.: > > After receiving the BIER packet and determining this packet is a > > signaling packet, EBBR will remove the BIER header from PIM packet. > > The Received PIM join/prune Signaling packet is processed as if it > > were received from neighbors on a virtual interface, (i.e. as if the > > pim adjacency was presents, regardless of the fact there is no > > adjacency) > > Wouldn't the router remove the BIER header simply because the BFR-id > > in the BIER header matches its own BFR-id? There are some grammar > > issues and a missing period in this paragraph. > > > > In this paragraph: > > With same token the EBBR creates a multicast state with incoming > > interface as same interface that PIM join packet was forwarded and > > outgoing interfaces of BIER tunnel to BFER identified with BFIR-id > > and its corresponding Sub-Domain obtained from the BIER header or via > > PIM Join Attributes added to the PIM signaling packet by the IBBR. > > > > I'm not sure what "With same token" means here. Also, it not should > > say that PIM join packet was forwarded. I would say that state is > > created according to the PIM specification, and just describe the BIER > OIF state. > > The specific OIF state may be implementation specific though. Perhaps > > this is sufficiently described in the paragraph that comes right > > after? It is also well described in 4.1. > > > > In section 5: s/LEAFs/leaves? Should it be EBBRs? > > > > In section 6: > > s/vrf/VRF > > "it is determine" should be "it is determined". > > Replace "PIM signaling message" with "PIM Join/Prune message"? > > > > Section 8: > > The 4601 reference should be to RFC 7761. > > > > Appendix A: > > The header seems to not be formatted correctly. > > "This section" should be "This appendix"? > > > > In A.1: "is consist" should be "consists". > > > > In Figure 2: s/bier/BIER > > Also in the text in A.2.2. > > > > IN A.3.1 > > s/Bier/BIER > > s/bier/BIER > > s/tlv/TLV > > > > Stig > --0000000000002d1b4905af4be4f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    It appears=C2=A0that issues have been add= ressed as per the list discussion=C2=A0of July 28th. The latest rev was pos= ted July 29th, I assume=C2=A0with the agreed changes, correct?

    Let's do a quick 1 week WGLC to confirm the latest rev.

    Please respond to this thread by Sept 27th.

    =
    Thanks,
    Shep
    (chairs)

    On Tue, Jul 28, 2= 020 at 2:35 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:
    Thanks Stig!

    Inline HB>

    Regards

    Hooman

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Stig Venaas <= stig@venaas.com>
    Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 4:56 PM
    To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankamis@cisco.com>
    Cc: gjshep@gmail.com<= /a>; Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>; BIER WG &= lt;bier@ietf.org>= ; Ijsbrand Wijnands <= ice@cisco.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.org; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; Antoni= Przygienda <prz@ju= niper.net>
    Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/

    Hi

    It looks like most of the issues I found have been resolved now. But most i= mportantly, the IANA Considerations still say that there are none. This nee= ds to be fixed!

    HB> Done, Add it for the join attribute TLV that you got away from in th= e other draft ;)

    I see a couple of places where it says PIM signaling message or PIM signali= ng packet. I think it should say PIM join/prune message, or PIM join/prune = packet.,

    HB>
    Changed to PIM join/prune in section 3 because this was the PIM domain join= /prune. "it will generate a PIM join/prune packet toward its attached = PIM domain."
    Any where else that the pim signaling is left is actually the BIER signalin= g the join/prune through the bier network as such I wanted it to be clear t= hat these are signalling packet and not extending the PIM over the BIER dom= ain.

    :


    Regards,
    Stig

    On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:51 AM Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com> wrote:
    >
    > Hi
    >
    > This is good work and I generally support the document. There are
    > however some issues that need to be addressed. I also think it would <= br> > be good to get this reviewed in the pim WG, perhaps you can ask for > reviews on the pim list.
    >
    > I mostly have editorial comments that are easy to address. But at a > high level I think some more text about pim is needed.
    >
    > PIM relies on hello messages to know what capabilities a router has, <= br> > e.g. whether it support Join attributes, whether it support BIDIR etc.=
    > I think you need to point out what capabilities are assumed to be
    > present. Obviously it is assumed that Join attributes are supported. <= br> > It may also be good to point out that there is no J/P suppression as <= br> > the J/P is only sent to the target, and not to other routers. Also > point out that only J/P messages are used, and that there is no assert=
    > processing.
    >
    >
    > Below are the editorial comments. Please also check the "nits&quo= t;
    > tool. It complains about missing references, and it cannot find the > "Authors' Addresses" section. The heading is missing. >
    > Also Section 7 must be updated. There is an IANA action, but it says <= br> > there are none!
    >
    > The abstract is rather long. Suggest removing some of the text that > explains the general operation of BIER.
    >
    > Some of the references might need some work. In section 2 it says &quo= t;RFC
    > 2119 [RFC2119]". Should it be just "[RFC2119]"? Also th= e reference is
    > missing.=C2=A0 In 2.1 it says "[I-D. rfc8279]" which also ne= eds to be
    > fixed. Most of the other references look fine.
    > In 3.1 there seems to be a reference to 8279 without brackets though.<= br> >
    > In 2.1, BFR definition. Missing space after ".".
    >
    > BFIR definition: It says "insert the BM into the packet", bu= t I think
    > it might be better to say that it performs BIER encapsulation. The > term BM is not defined. It says "plain" instead of "pla= ne".
    >
    > BFER defintion: Do we have to say that BFER is a BFR? In that case, we=
    > should also say that BFIR is a BFR. It says "plain" instead = of "plane".
    >
    > IBBR and EBBR, might it be good to include "signaling" in th= e name,
    > like Ingress Signaling BIER Router and Egress Signaling BIER Router? I=
    > want it to be very clear that ingress and egress are not related to da= ta.
    >
    > In "Figure 1" I think "bfir" and "bfer" = should be upper case.
    >
    > In 3.1:
    > "weather" should be "whether".
    > "located on" should probably be "located in".
    >
    > In 3.1 there is this paragraph that I think need some changes.
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 After discovering the EBBR and its BFR-ID (flooded via IG= P BIER
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 extension), the IBBR will construct a PIM Join Attribute = encoded as
    >
    > It says that BFR-ID is flooded via IGP BIER extension. That isn't =
    > necessarily true, do we need to explain how the BFR-ID is discovered?<= br> >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLVs into the Source Address field of the PIM Join Messag= e as per
    >
    > Isn't it just one TLV? I think you can skip saying that it is a TL= V in
    > the source address field. Just say that it includes a new PIM Join > Attribute in the Join/Prune message. Also note that we should really <= br> > say Join/Prune, not just Join.
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC5384] and include it in PIM signaling message. Two ne= w "BIER
    >
    > I think it is better to be clear and say PIM Join/Prune message.
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBBR" attributes are define and explained in upcomin= g section. The
    > s/define/defined
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 PIM Join Attribute is used on EBBR to obtain necessary bi= er
    > s/bier/BIER
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 information to build its multicast states. In addition th= e IBBR will
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 change the PIM signaling packet source IP address to its = BIER prefix
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address (standard PIM procedure). It will also keep the d= estination
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address as the well known multicast IP address. It then w= ill
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 construct the BIER header. The signaling packet, in this = case the PIM
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 join/prune packet, is encapsulated in the BIER header and= transported
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 through BIER domain to EBBR.
    >
    > The language at the end here makes it sound like the PIM J/P is being =
    > forwarded and that the J/P is being modified. But J/P messages are > sent hop-by-hop. Each router originates a new J/P. For instance, a > router may receive a J/P for multiple sources. These sources may have =
    > different RPF neighbors on the receiving router and hence be split > into separate join messages. This could happen on the IBBR as well. >
    > The lasts paragraph in section 3 says:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IBBR will track all the PIM interfaces on the attache= d PIM domain
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which are interested in a certain (S,G). It creates multi= cast states
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for arriving (S,G)s from PIM domain, with incoming interf= ace as BIER
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "tunnel" interface and outgoing interface as th= e PIM domain
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interface(s) on which PIM Join(s) were received on.
    >
    > The IBBR is a PIM router and what you are describing is standard PIM <= br> > behavior, so I think this is a bit redundant. It might be goot to
    > stress that OIFs are adding according to standard PIM behavior. The > only special here is the RPF interface.
    >
    > Section 3.1.4:
    > In heading Pim/PIM
    > bier/BIER
    >
    > It says "PIM Join Attribute [RFC5384] is used." I think it m= ight be
    > good to say that "a new PIM Join Attribute is used". And the= n also
    > this sentence "The PIM Join Attribute format is as follow:" = should
    > perhaps be The new PIM Join Attribute format is defined as follows:&qu= ot;.
    >
    > s/Ipv4/IPv4
    > s/Ipv6/IPv6
    >
    > In the format I think it might be good to not just show "BIER inf= o",
    > but show the formatting of prefix, SD and BFR-ID explicitly. Also, it =
    > should state clearly that these are the prefix, SD and BFR-id of the I= BBR.
    >
    > In 3.1.4.1 why not say PIM Join/Prune packet instead of PIM signaling?=
    >
    > In 3.3.:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 After receiving the BIER packet and determining this pack= et is a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 signaling packet, EBBR will remove the BIER header from P= IM packet.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The Received PIM join/prune Signaling packet is processed= as if it
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 were received from neighbors on a virtual interface, (i.e= . as if the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 pim adjacency was presents, regardless of the fact there = is no
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 adjacency)
    > Wouldn't the router remove the BIER header simply because the BFR-= id
    > in the BIER header matches its own BFR-id? There are some grammar
    > issues and a missing period in this paragraph.
    >
    > In this paragraph:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 With same token the EBBR creates a multicast state with i= ncoming
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interface as same interface that PIM join packet was forw= arded and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 outgoing interfaces of BIER tunnel to BFER identified wit= h BFIR-id
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and its corresponding Sub-Domain obtained from the BIER h= eader or via
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 PIM Join Attributes added to the PIM signaling packet by = the IBBR.
    >
    > I'm not sure what "With same token" means here. Also, it= not should
    > say that PIM join packet was forwarded. I would say that state is
    > created according to the PIM specification, and just describe the BIER= OIF state.
    > The specific OIF state may be implementation specific though. Perhaps =
    > this is sufficiently described in the paragraph that comes right
    > after? It is also well described in 4.1.
    >
    > In section 5: s/LEAFs/leaves? Should it be EBBRs?
    >
    > In section 6:
    > s/vrf/VRF
    > "it is determine" should be "it is determined". > Replace "PIM signaling message" with "PIM Join/Prune me= ssage"?
    >
    > Section 8:
    > The 4601 reference should be to RFC 7761.
    >
    > Appendix A:
    > The header seems to not be formatted correctly.
    > "This section" should be "This appendix"?
    >
    > In A.1: "is consist" should be "consists".
    >
    > In Figure 2: s/bier/BIER
    > Also in the text in A.2.2.
    >
    > IN A.3.1
    > s/Bier/BIER
    > s/bier/BIER
    > s/tlv/TLV
    >
    > Stig
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[166.176.187.45]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a3sm14364383pfl.213.2020.09.15.10.39.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Sep 2020 10:39:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Shepherd X-Google-Original-From: Greg Shepherd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-22CC95F7-D219-417F-9153-465A29CDF518 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 10:39:05 -0700 Message-Id: References: Cc: Stig Venaas , "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" , BIER WG , Ijsbrand Wijnands , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Antoni Przygienda In-Reply-To: To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17D50) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/ X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:39:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail-22CC95F7-D219-417F-9153-465A29CDF518 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks! If all the authors agree then let=E2=80=99s release the Doc Shepherd= for the write-up. - Shep Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 15, 2020, at 08:52, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi > =20 > Yes the agreed changes are there, again these were mostly cleanup rather t= hen any significant procedural changes. > =20 > I think they were included in the previous last call. > =20 > Thanks > Hooman > =20 > From: Greg Shepherd =20 > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 4:30 PM > To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > Cc: Stig Venaas ; Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) ; BIER WG ; Ijsbrand Wijnands ; bier-= chairs@ietf.org; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Antoni Przygi= enda > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-b= ier-pim-signaling/ > =20 > It appears that issues have been addressed as per the list discussion of J= uly 28th. The latest rev was posted July 29th, I assume with the agreed chan= ges, correct? > =20 > Let's do a quick 1 week WGLC to confirm the latest rev. > =20 > Please respond to this thread by Sept 27th. > =20 > Thanks, > Shep > (chairs) > =20 > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 2:35 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: > Thanks Stig! >=20 > Inline HB> >=20 > Regards >=20 > Hooman >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Stig Venaas =20 > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 4:56 PM > To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) > Cc: gjshep@gmail.com; Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) ; BIER WG ; Ijsbrand Wijnands ; bier= -chairs@ietf.org; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Antoni Przyg= ienda > Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-b= ier-pim-signaling/ >=20 > Hi >=20 > It looks like most of the issues I found have been resolved now. But most i= mportantly, the IANA Considerations still say that there are none. This need= s to be fixed! >=20 > HB> Done, Add it for the join attribute TLV that you got away from in the o= ther draft ;) >=20 > I see a couple of places where it says PIM signaling message or PIM signal= ing packet. I think it should say PIM join/prune message, or PIM join/prune p= acket., >=20 > HB> > Changed to PIM join/prune in section 3 because this was the PIM domain joi= n/prune. "it will generate a PIM join/prune packet toward its attached PIM d= omain." > Any where else that the pim signaling is left is actually the BIER signali= ng the join/prune through the bier network as such I wanted it to be clear t= hat these are signalling packet and not extending the PIM over the BIER doma= in. >=20 > : >=20 >=20 > Regards, > Stig >=20 > On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:51 AM Stig Venaas wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > This is good work and I generally support the document. There are=20 > > however some issues that need to be addressed. I also think it would=20 > > be good to get this reviewed in the pim WG, perhaps you can ask for=20 > > reviews on the pim list. > > > > I mostly have editorial comments that are easy to address. But at a=20 > > high level I think some more text about pim is needed. > > > > PIM relies on hello messages to know what capabilities a router has,=20 > > e.g. whether it support Join attributes, whether it support BIDIR etc.=20= > > I think you need to point out what capabilities are assumed to be=20 > > present. Obviously it is assumed that Join attributes are supported.=20 > > It may also be good to point out that there is no J/P suppression as=20 > > the J/P is only sent to the target, and not to other routers. Also=20 > > point out that only J/P messages are used, and that there is no assert=20= > > processing. > > > > > > Below are the editorial comments. Please also check the "nits" > > tool. It complains about missing references, and it cannot find the=20 > > "Authors' Addresses" section. The heading is missing. > > > > Also Section 7 must be updated. There is an IANA action, but it says=20 > > there are none! > > > > The abstract is rather long. Suggest removing some of the text that=20 > > explains the general operation of BIER. > > > > Some of the references might need some work. In section 2 it says "RFC=20= > > 2119 [RFC2119]". Should it be just "[RFC2119]"? Also the reference is=20= > > missing. In 2.1 it says "[I-D. rfc8279]" which also needs to be=20 > > fixed. Most of the other references look fine. > > In 3.1 there seems to be a reference to 8279 without brackets though. > > > > In 2.1, BFR definition. Missing space after ".". > > > > BFIR definition: It says "insert the BM into the packet", but I think=20= > > it might be better to say that it performs BIER encapsulation. The=20 > > term BM is not defined. It says "plain" instead of "plane". > > > > BFER defintion: Do we have to say that BFER is a BFR? In that case, we=20= > > should also say that BFIR is a BFR. It says "plain" instead of "plane". > > > > IBBR and EBBR, might it be good to include "signaling" in the name,=20 > > like Ingress Signaling BIER Router and Egress Signaling BIER Router? I=20= > > want it to be very clear that ingress and egress are not related to data= . > > > > In "Figure 1" I think "bfir" and "bfer" should be upper case. > > > > In 3.1: > > "weather" should be "whether". > > "located on" should probably be "located in". > > > > In 3.1 there is this paragraph that I think need some changes. > > > > After discovering the EBBR and its BFR-ID (flooded via IGP BIER > > extension), the IBBR will construct a PIM Join Attribute encoded as > > > > It says that BFR-ID is flooded via IGP BIER extension. That isn't=20 > > necessarily true, do we need to explain how the BFR-ID is discovered? > > > > TLVs into the Source Address field of the PIM Join Message as per > > > > Isn't it just one TLV? I think you can skip saying that it is a TLV in=20= > > the source address field. Just say that it includes a new PIM Join=20 > > Attribute in the Join/Prune message. Also note that we should really=20 > > say Join/Prune, not just Join. > > > > [RFC5384] and include it in PIM signaling message. Two new "BIER > > > > I think it is better to be clear and say PIM Join/Prune message. > > > > IBBR" attributes are define and explained in upcoming section. The=20= > > s/define/defined > > > > PIM Join Attribute is used on EBBR to obtain necessary bier=20 > > s/bier/BIER > > information to build its multicast states. In addition the IBBR will > > change the PIM signaling packet source IP address to its BIER prefix > > address (standard PIM procedure). It will also keep the destination > > address as the well known multicast IP address. It then will > > construct the BIER header. The signaling packet, in this case the PIM= > > join/prune packet, is encapsulated in the BIER header and transported= > > through BIER domain to EBBR. > > > > The language at the end here makes it sound like the PIM J/P is being=20= > > forwarded and that the J/P is being modified. But J/P messages are=20 > > sent hop-by-hop. Each router originates a new J/P. For instance, a=20 > > router may receive a J/P for multiple sources. These sources may have=20= > > different RPF neighbors on the receiving router and hence be split=20 > > into separate join messages. This could happen on the IBBR as well. > > > > The lasts paragraph in section 3 says: > > The IBBR will track all the PIM interfaces on the attached PIM domain= > > which are interested in a certain (S,G). It creates multicast states > > for arriving (S,G)s from PIM domain, with incoming interface as BIER > > "tunnel" interface and outgoing interface as the PIM domain > > interface(s) on which PIM Join(s) were received on. > > > > The IBBR is a PIM router and what you are describing is standard PIM=20 > > behavior, so I think this is a bit redundant. It might be goot to=20 > > stress that OIFs are adding according to standard PIM behavior. The=20 > > only special here is the RPF interface. > > > > Section 3.1.4: > > In heading Pim/PIM > > bier/BIER > > > > It says "PIM Join Attribute [RFC5384] is used." I think it might be=20 > > good to say that "a new PIM Join Attribute is used". And then also=20 > > this sentence "The PIM Join Attribute format is as follow:" should=20 > > perhaps be The new PIM Join Attribute format is defined as follows:". > > > > s/Ipv4/IPv4 > > s/Ipv6/IPv6 > > > > In the format I think it might be good to not just show "BIER info",=20 > > but show the formatting of prefix, SD and BFR-ID explicitly. Also, it=20= > > should state clearly that these are the prefix, SD and BFR-id of the IBB= R. > > > > In 3.1.4.1 why not say PIM Join/Prune packet instead of PIM signaling? > > > > In 3.3.: > > After receiving the BIER packet and determining this packet is a > > signaling packet, EBBR will remove the BIER header from PIM packet. > > The Received PIM join/prune Signaling packet is processed as if it > > were received from neighbors on a virtual interface, (i.e. as if the > > pim adjacency was presents, regardless of the fact there is no > > adjacency) > > Wouldn't the router remove the BIER header simply because the BFR-id=20 > > in the BIER header matches its own BFR-id? There are some grammar=20 > > issues and a missing period in this paragraph. > > > > In this paragraph: > > With same token the EBBR creates a multicast state with incoming > > interface as same interface that PIM join packet was forwarded and > > outgoing interfaces of BIER tunnel to BFER identified with BFIR-id > > and its corresponding Sub-Domain obtained from the BIER header or via= > > PIM Join Attributes added to the PIM signaling packet by the IBBR. > > > > I'm not sure what "With same token" means here. Also, it not should=20 > > say that PIM join packet was forwarded. I would say that state is=20 > > created according to the PIM specification, and just describe the BIER O= IF state. > > The specific OIF state may be implementation specific though. Perhaps=20= > > this is sufficiently described in the paragraph that comes right=20 > > after? It is also well described in 4.1. > > > > In section 5: s/LEAFs/leaves? Should it be EBBRs? > > > > In section 6: > > s/vrf/VRF > > "it is determine" should be "it is determined". > > Replace "PIM signaling message" with "PIM Join/Prune message"? > > > > Section 8: > > The 4601 reference should be to RFC 7761. > > > > Appendix A: > > The header seems to not be formatted correctly. > > "This section" should be "This appendix"? > > > > In A.1: "is consist" should be "consists". > > > > In Figure 2: s/bier/BIER > > Also in the text in A.2.2. > > > > IN A.3.1 > > s/Bier/BIER > > s/bier/BIER > > s/tlv/TLV > > > > Stig --Apple-Mail-22CC95F7-D219-417F-9153-465A29CDF518 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks! If all the authors agree then let=E2= =80=99s release the Doc Shepherd for the write-up.

    - Shep=

    Sent from my iPhone

    On Sep 15, 2020, at 08:52, Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/= Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:

    =EF=BB=BF

    Hi

     = ;

    Yes the ag= reed changes are there, again these were mostly cleanup rather then any sign= ificant procedural changes.

     = ;

    I think th= ey were included in the previous last call.

     = ;

    Thanks

    Hooman

     = ;

    From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
    Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 4:30 PM
    To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com&= gt;
    Cc: Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com>; Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) &= lt;mankamis@cisco.com>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>; Ijsbrand Wijnands &= lt;ice@cisco.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.org; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzha= ng@juniper.net>; Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>
    Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-i= etf-bier-pim-signaling/

     

    It appears that issues have been addressed as pe= r the list discussion of July 28th. The latest rev was posted July 29th= , I assume with the agreed changes, correct?

     

    Let's do a quick 1 week WGLC to confirm the latest re= v.

     

    Please respond to this thread by Sept 27th.

     

    Thanks,

    Shep

    (chairs)

     

    On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 2:35 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Noki= a - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgol= i@nokia.com> wrote:

    Thanks Stig!

    Inline HB>

    Regards

    Hooman

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Stig Venaas <s= tig@venaas.com>
    Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 4:56 PM
    To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankamis@cisco.com>
    Cc: gjshep@gmail.com; Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>; BIER WG <= bier@ietf.org>; Ijsbrand Wijnands <ic= e@cisco.com>; bier-chairs@ietf.o= rg; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>
    Subject: Re: [Bier] WG LC on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling/

    Hi

    It looks like most of the issues I found have been resolved now. But most im= portantly, the IANA Considerations still say that there are none. This needs= to be fixed!

    HB> Done, Add it for the join attribute TLV that you got away from in the= other draft ;)

    I see a couple of places where it says PIM signaling message or PIM signalin= g packet. I think it should say PIM join/prune message, or PIM join/prune pa= cket.,

    HB>
    Changed to PIM join/prune in section 3 because this was the PIM domain join/= prune. "it will generate a PIM join/prune packet toward its attached PIM dom= ain."
    Any where else that the pim signaling is left is actually the BIER signaling= the join/prune through the bier network as such I wanted it to be clear tha= t these are signalling packet and not extending the PIM over the BIER domain= .

    :


    Regards,
    Stig

    On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:51 AM Stig Venaas <stig@venaas.com> wrote:
    >
    > Hi
    >
    > This is good work and I generally support the document. There are
    > however some issues that need to be addressed. I also think it would > be good to get this reviewed in the pim WG, perhaps you can ask for > reviews on the pim list.
    >
    > I mostly have editorial comments that are easy to address. But at a > high level I think some more text about pim is needed.
    >
    > PIM relies on hello messages to know what capabilities a router has, > e.g. whether it support Join attributes, whether it support BIDIR etc. <= br> > I think you need to point out what capabilities are assumed to be
    > present. Obviously it is assumed that Join attributes are supported. > It may also be good to point out that there is no J/P suppression as > the J/P is only sent to the target, and not to other routers. Also
    = > point out that only J/P messages are used, and that there is no assert <= br> > processing.
    >
    >
    > Below are the editorial comments. Please also check the "nits"
    > tool. It complains about missing references, and it cannot find the > "Authors' Addresses" section. The heading is missing.
    >
    > Also Section 7 must be updated. There is an IANA action, but it says > there are none!
    >
    > The abstract is rather long. Suggest removing some of the text that > explains the general operation of BIER.
    >
    > Some of the references might need some work. In section 2 it says "RFC <= br> > 2119 [RFC2119]". Should it be just "[RFC2119]"? Also the reference is <= br> > missing.  In 2.1 it says "[I-D. rfc8279]" which also needs to be <= br> > fixed. Most of the other references look fine.
    > In 3.1 there seems to be a reference to 8279 without brackets though. >
    > In 2.1, BFR definition. Missing space after ".".
    >
    > BFIR definition: It says "insert the BM into the packet", but I think <= br> > it might be better to say that it performs BIER encapsulation. The
    = > term BM is not defined. It says "plain" instead of "plane".
    >
    > BFER defintion: Do we have to say that BFER is a BFR? In that case, we <= br> > should also say that BFIR is a BFR. It says "plain" instead of "plane".=
    >
    > IBBR and EBBR, might it be good to include "signaling" in the name, > like Ingress Signaling BIER Router and Egress Signaling BIER Router? I <= br> > want it to be very clear that ingress and egress are not related to dat= a.
    >
    > In "Figure 1" I think "bfir" and "bfer" should be upper case.
    >
    > In 3.1:
    > "weather" should be "whether".
    > "located on" should probably be "located in".
    >
    > In 3.1 there is this paragraph that I think need some changes.
    >
    >    After discovering the EBBR and its BFR-ID (flooded via IGP= BIER
    >    extension), the IBBR will construct a PIM Join Attribute e= ncoded as
    >
    > It says that BFR-ID is flooded via IGP BIER extension. That isn't
    > necessarily true, do we need to explain how the BFR-ID is discovered? >
    >    TLVs into the Source Address field of the PIM Join Message= as per
    >
    > Isn't it just one TLV? I think you can skip saying that it is a TLV in <= br> > the source address field. Just say that it includes a new PIM Join
    = > Attribute in the Join/Prune message. Also note that we should really > say Join/Prune, not just Join.
    >
    >    [RFC5384] and include it in PIM signaling message. Two new= "BIER
    >
    > I think it is better to be clear and say PIM Join/Prune message.
    >
    >    IBBR" attributes are define and explained in upcoming sect= ion. The
    > s/define/defined
    >
    >    PIM Join Attribute is used on EBBR to obtain necessary bie= r
    > s/bier/BIER
    >    information to build its multicast states. In addition the= IBBR will
    >    change the PIM signaling packet source IP address to its B= IER prefix
    >    address (standard PIM procedure). It will also keep the de= stination
    >    address as the well known multicast IP address. It then wi= ll
    >    construct the BIER header. The signaling packet, in this c= ase the PIM
    >    join/prune packet, is encapsulated in the BIER header and t= ransported
    >    through BIER domain to EBBR.
    >
    > The language at the end here makes it sound like the PIM J/P is being <= br> > forwarded and that the J/P is being modified. But J/P messages are
    = > sent hop-by-hop. Each router originates a new J/P. For instance, a
    = > router may receive a J/P for multiple sources. These sources may have <= br> > different RPF neighbors on the receiving router and hence be split
    = > into separate join messages. This could happen on the IBBR as well.
    = >
    > The lasts paragraph in section 3 says:
    >    The IBBR will track all the PIM interfaces on the attached= PIM domain
    >    which are interested in a certain (S,G). It creates multic= ast states
    >    for arriving (S,G)s from PIM domain, with incoming interfa= ce as BIER
    >    "tunnel" interface and outgoing interface as the PIM domai= n
    >    interface(s) on which PIM Join(s) were received on.
    >
    > The IBBR is a PIM router and what you are describing is standard PIM > behavior, so I think this is a bit redundant. It might be goot to
    > stress that OIFs are adding according to standard PIM behavior. The > only special here is the RPF interface.
    >
    > Section 3.1.4:
    > In heading Pim/PIM
    > bier/BIER
    >
    > It says "PIM Join Attribute [RFC5384] is used." I think it might be > good to say that "a new PIM Join Attribute is used". And then also
    = > this sentence "The PIM Join Attribute format is as follow:" should
    = > perhaps be The new PIM Join Attribute format is defined as follows:". >
    > s/Ipv4/IPv4
    > s/Ipv6/IPv6
    >
    > In the format I think it might be good to not just show "BIER info", > but show the formatting of prefix, SD and BFR-ID explicitly. Also, it <= br> > should state clearly that these are the prefix, SD and BFR-id of the IB= BR.
    >
    > In 3.1.4.1 why not say PIM Join/Prune packet instead of PIM signaling?<= br> >
    > In 3.3.:
    >    After receiving the BIER packet and determining this packe= t is a
    >    signaling packet, EBBR will remove the BIER header from PI= M packet.
    >    The Received PIM join/prune Signaling packet is processed a= s if it
    >    were received from neighbors on a virtual interface, (i.e.= as if the
    >    pim adjacency was presents, regardless of the fact there i= s no
    >    adjacency)
    > Wouldn't the router remove the BIER header simply because the BFR-id > in the BIER header matches its own BFR-id? There are some grammar
    > issues and a missing period in this paragraph.
    >
    > In this paragraph:
    >    With same token the EBBR creates a multicast state with in= coming
    >    interface as same interface that PIM join packet was forwa= rded and
    >    outgoing interfaces of BIER tunnel to BFER identified with= BFIR-id
    >    and its corresponding Sub-Domain obtained from the BIER he= ader or via
    >    PIM Join Attributes added to the PIM signaling packet by t= he IBBR.
    >
    > I'm not sure what "With same token" means here. Also, it not should > say that PIM join packet was forwarded. I would say that state is
    > created according to the PIM specification, and just describe the BIER O= IF state.
    > The specific OIF state may be implementation specific though. Perhaps <= br> > this is sufficiently described in the paragraph that comes right
    > after? It is also well described in 4.1.
    >
    > In section 5: s/LEAFs/leaves? Should it be EBBRs?
    >
    > In section 6:
    > s/vrf/VRF
    > "it is determine" should be "it is determined".
    > Replace "PIM signaling message" with "PIM Join/Prune message"?
    >
    > Section 8:
    > The 4601 reference should be to RFC 7761.
    >
    > Appendix A:
    > The header seems to not be formatted correctly.
    > "This section" should be "This appendix"?
    >
    > In A.1: "is consist" should be "consists".
    >
    > In Figure 2: s/bier/BIER
    > Also in the text in A.2.2.
    >
    > IN A.3.1
    > s/Bier/BIER
    > s/bier/BIER
    > s/tlv/TLV
    >
    > Stig

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Z3Q7IFN0aWc8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8 L2Rpdj4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_06B0C052CF2342E2B01AED6DBB67B568ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Sep 16 08:29:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C993A0AD6; Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: gjshep@gmail.com, bier-chairs@ietf.org, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160027019267.8999.4473091630997987803@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:29:52 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] bier - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 109 X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 15:29:53 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Greg Shepherd, a Chair of the bier working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Bit Indexed Explicit Replication Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Greg Shepherd Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: mboned pim roll lsr mpls People who must be present: Tony Przygienda Greg Shepherd Alvaro Retana Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Sep 16 19:14:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75863A0B69; Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:14:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <160030886482.12027.6267087219989774952@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:14:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 02:14:25 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER IPv6 Requirements Authors : Mike McBride Jingrong Xie Xuesong Geng Senthil Dhanaraj Rajiv Asati Yongqing Zhu Gyan Mishra Zhaohui Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2020-09-16 Abstract: There have been several proposed solutions with BIER being used in IPv6. But there hasn't been a document which describes the problem and lists the requirements. The goal of this document is to describe the general BIER IPv6 encapsulation problem, summarize the encapsulation modes of the proposed solutions, detail solution requirements, and assist the working group in the development of acceptable solutions. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Thu, 17 Sep 2020 02:34:53 +0000 From: Michael McBride To: "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHWjJhKBm4Jh7W+YUaL7V4ofI65ZalsHFAQ Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 02:34:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <160030886482.12027.6267087219989774952@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160030886482.12027.6267087219989774952@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [108.197.145.62] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b619fe81-802b-4d25-999b-08d85ab2427d x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR13MB2664: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: cNCDWtgF6sjiJHC0S2J89FNRLYmWJffnRyDPGFcbmWLJ7OeaAO2fdLGwA6kQj7hZz35U2tzcZ6prMwE6eFqrnot6Vus9Z34UHPslEhlUEPcMQoplgYJjtQYvAGphT7kVElzpfRBK4WybDtsx7hsJRwWrEA/S1ICJe/a8XqQO3NqMwXiCWDgeOgWvF5JKpuqY5za/SKDYMyiiS5jtl1Ah0YVMxXVZQVmbnINzMW0at/4Mq2SOKmKa89PgohoH4gwf9Jj0vMpEbyLJosaAt3MTe/jErmx3SY40soXjfcenQmBqEvN63qXQ1ZzkKzvXY952vj064M4jMEckXvuNtGM8HKqEQI4pHkhy9Qma37o2BJ7UIvOjz+eifIhHNzldBwrpZwpAoz2KGHBHYEtyO/fR5GRafPNDet2EzsRjpImR8yt8a7KaeKauZNmmw4mmeuAd x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR13MB2582.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b619fe81-802b-4d25-999b-08d85ab2427d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Sep 2020 02:34:53.8511 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: A/aLuTiuYkEpanFV81NBac0F0jvJK4wGLfxFxXhBKIQnDagk0XbzbyQ5hKJwt+31HrxD8ARB9M9XmCgNoeIe+A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR13MB2664 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 02:34:59 -0000 Hello wg, Hopefully the draft now provides enough adequate material for wg discussion= . Please review and comment on this new rev. thanks, mike -----Original Message----- From: BIER On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 7:14 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the= IETF. Title : BIER IPv6 Requirements Authors : Mike McBride Jingrong Xie Xuesong Geng Senthil Dhanaraj Rajiv Asati Yongqing Zhu Gyan Mishra Zhaohui Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2020-09-16 Abstract: There have been several proposed solutions with BIER being used in IPv6. But there hasn't been a document which describes the problem and lists the requirements. The goal of this document is to describe the general BIER IPv6 encapsulation problem, summarize the encapsulation modes of the proposed solutions, detail solution requirements, and assist the working group in the development of acceptable solutions. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements%2F&data=3D02%7C= 01%7Cmichael.mcbride%40futurewei.com%7Cc1409d2bb169454f036e08d85aaf6a5c%7C0= fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637359056764982049&sdata=3D%2= FeZhLHO5cCPUf7PAH%2FnwFUeXdMtg71Ha9nbpMXXZOaU%3D&reserved=3D0 There are also htmlized versions available at: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.i= etf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07&data=3D02%7C01%7C= michael.mcbride%40futurewei.com%7Cc1409d2bb169454f036e08d85aaf6a5c%7C0fee8f= f2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637359056764982049&sdata=3DCM5NTvD= RO%2F3UvEk2BH1KRy4RxG%2BuTmRoq2R7%2FVrLWrY%3D&reserved=3D0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07&data= =3D02%7C01%7Cmichael.mcbride%40futurewei.com%7Cc1409d2bb169454f036e08d85aaf= 6a5c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637359056764982049&sd= ata=3Da0Dy7CsrQCzeDrHL8ZOmG2iPH2qSWQy5a4waA3j4WK8%3D&reserved=3D0 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-07&data=3D02= %7C01%7Cmichael.mcbride%40futurewei.com%7Cc1409d2bb169454f036e08d85aaf6a5c%= 7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637359056764982049&sdata= =3DMs3D%2BkK7gEePT2Om6GlGZ2%2Fxbpe7wQlU1R9akKdc%2F8c%3D&reserved=3D0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.ietf.= org%2Finternet-drafts%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cmichael.mcbride%40futurewei.c= om%7Cc1409d2bb169454f036e08d85aaf6a5c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C= 1%7C0%7C637359056764982049&sdata=3DLp9kyI%2BGwKkb4WNgZiXaENHm5YCdhA165D= p%2BJE%2FNiMo%3D&reserved=3D0 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D02%7C01%7Cmichael.mcbride%40fu= turewei.com%7Cc1409d2bb169454f036e08d85aaf6a5c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d55= 91fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637359056764982049&sdata=3DyhZiRwjMf3QkPGQph8O3E7796ml= m2tVVm5%2BsxvqLyS8%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Thu Sep 17 00:19:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46CC3A0D44 for ; 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Thu, 17 Sep 2020 09:19:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Loa Andersson To: Gyan Mishra , "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" Cc: "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" , Greg Shepherd , "bier@ietf.org" References: <1E057E92-424E-4456-936C-F8C842340ADB@gmail.com> <9300613D-A740-476E-BC8F-3B0D25C8E883@cisco.com> <223C9348-563A-43DC-B9E3-DE978CA7FA68@cisco.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 15:19:30 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 07:19:44 -0000 Working Group, authors, I don't think I saw a response on this. /Loa On 22/08/2020 13:57, Loa Andersson wrote: > Working Group, > > I've had time to read the draft a bit more in detail. > > I'm convinced that this will work, and support progressing the draft. > > I still think there are some minor description details that could be > improved. > > The draft says: > >    One way to solve this problem is to use Penultimate Hop Popping (PHP) >    so that the upstream BFR can pop the BIER header and send the payload >    "natively" (note that the upstream BFR can be connected directly or >    indirectly via any type of tunnel to the PE).  This is similar to >    Multi-Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) PHP though it is the BIER >    header that is popped. > > This indicate that this is a "per node" decision, while in MPLS it is a > per LSP decision. > > I would think that it is possible for one node to be the penultimate > node for some traffic but not for other traffic, even though the traffic > is sent to the same node, which can be both ultimate node, pen-ultimate > node or transit node. > > >      +-------+              +-------+          +-------+ >      |       |              |       |          |       | > -a,b-+   A   +-----a',b-----+   B   +----a'----+  CPE1 | >      |       |              |       |          |       | >      +-------+              +---+---+          +-------+ >                                 | >                                 b' >                                 | >                             +---+---+          +-------+ >                             |       |          |       | >                             +   C   +----b'----+  CPE2 | >                             |       |          |       | >                             +---+---+          +-------+ > > > Two streams comes in to A from the left (a and b). > > A is the penultimate node for traffic to to CPE1 (a) so the BIER header > is popped. > > A is not the  penultimate node for traffic to to CPE2 (b) so the BIER > header is popped. > > Both a' and b is sent to B. > > B forward a' natively to CPE1. > > B is the penultimate node for traffic to to CPE2 (b) so the BIER header > is popped. > > b' is forwarded to C and onto CPE2 > > Works just fine. > > Question: If the PHP is a "per node decision" how is A stopped from > doing PHP for b? > > /Loa > > > > On 22/08/2020 05:20, Gyan Mishra wrote: >> >> I support advancing this critical draft forward.  I agree that the PHP >> feature traditionally used with MPLS and has been adopted by SR and >> now by BIER for similar reasons of being able to pop the BIER header >> similar to what is done with SR PHP concept and now extensible with >> BIER for Non-BRF capable PE's. >> >> BIER IPv6 is still being developed, however I think maybe BIERin6 >> could take advantage of  PHP by popping the encapsulated L2 1/2 BIER >> shim for "Non-BFR" capable PE.  I think for BIERv6 as the BIER header >> is encoded in DOH it may be difficult to support PHP. >> >> Thanks >> >> Gyan >> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:01 PM Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) >> > > wrote: >> >>     Support moving this document forward. ____ >> >>     __ __ >> >>     *From: *BIER > >>     on behalf of "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" >>     >     > >>     *Date: *Monday, August 17, 2020 at 11:56 AM >>     *To: *Greg Shepherd > >>     *Cc: *"bier@ietf.org " >     > >>     *Subject: *Re: [Bier] WGLC: draft-ietf-bier-php____ >> >>     __ __ >> >>     In support moving this draft forward, ____ >> >>     __ __ >> >>     Thx,____ >> >>     __ __ >> >>     Ice.____ >> >>     Sent from my iPhone____ >> >> >> >>     ____ >> >>         On 13 Aug 2020, at 05:31, Greg Shepherd >         > wrote:____ >> >> >>         Please read and respond to this thread. We had a WGLC for this >>         draft previously, but had no response. Let’s do better. ____ >> >>         __ __ >> >>         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-php/____ >> >>         __ __ >> >>         Start of short LC timer. Respond by Aug 19..____ >> >>         __ __ >> >>         - Shep____ >> >>         (Chairs)____ >> >>         _______________________________________________ >>         BIER mailing list >>         BIER@ietf.org >>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier____ >> >>     _______________________________________________ >>     BIER mailing list >>     BIER@ietf.org >>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> *Gyan Mishra* >> >> /Network Solutions A//rchitect / >> >> /M 301 502-1347 >> 13101 Columbia Pike >> /Silver Spring, MD >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Thu Sep 17 03:40:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost 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X2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYmllcl9fOyEhTkV0NnlNYU8t Z2shWGM3S2JrV19sZWwzSTM2SGFFenNVQTJ4TWViNWdTcm9CNVcxbUJBaEcyeUxaamtuVEg5T1FF aWJTTHpWZ3JlWiQNCg== From nobody Thu Sep 17 19:48:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38C23A046A; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 19:48:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LNs6y1s4I-bu; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 19:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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10:48:42 +0800 From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" To: Alvaro Retana , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" CC: "bier@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions Thread-Index: AQHWbMWunbJlq3so/kirxrD/iRtbwKlt7hWw Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 02:48:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.201.174] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 02:48:51 -0000 SGVsbG8gQWx2YXJvLCBXZywNCkZpcnN0bHkgdGhhbmsgeW91IGFsdmFybyBhbmQgdGhlIGNoYWly 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Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 08:47:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" Cc: Alvaro Retana , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089872b05af986aca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 15:47:33 -0000 --00000000000089872b05af986aca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Jingrong, Sorry, no, it doesn't appear that much of the direction provided by WG members on the list, nor the WG Chairs, nor the AD was heeded at all. A requirements document needs to provide requirements - only. This doc is still mistakenly written as a solutions comparison marketing doc - Section 3 does not belong in this doc. The purpose of the reqs doc is to provide a guide for the WG to follow in determining 1) IF a new encap is needed, and if so, 2) what any proposed solution needs to address that cannot be addressed with the available tools today. ONLY then will this doc provide the guidance we need to evaluate 1). It's clear to me the current authors have little intention of following the direction of the WG. At this time I recommend that we either: 1) Replace/refresh the authors with people willing to work with the BIER WG members at large, and within the guidlines of the IETF. or 2) de-adopt this document entirely. The WG as a whole can determine if I wishes to restart this effort. - Shep (chairs) On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:48 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) < xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote: > Hello Alvaro, Wg, > Firstly thank you alvaro and the chairs for the clear directing! > The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the > direction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed. > Your further comments, corrections, complaints, compliments are all > welcome. > > Thanks > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 10:19 PM > To: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org; > draft-zhang-bier-bierin6@ietf.org; draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6@ietf.org; > draft-xu-bier-encapsulation@ietf.org > Cc: bier@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions > > Hello all! > > I am directing this message to the authors of the BIER in IPv6-related > work. I am also copying the WG because this work needs more engagement[*], > making sure I don't miss anyone. > > [*] More engagement in the form of substantive discussions from non- > authors, and diversity of affiliations. > > > Some of you raised concerns to the IESG about the speed at which the > IPv6-related work has been moving, and the ability to discuss it during WG > meetings. In response, I am providing my opinion of the current state and, > after consultation with the Chairs, reinforcing the required steps to move > any work forward. > > Note that my intent is not to insert myself in the discussions, but to get > them back on track. All decisions should be made by WG consensus as > interpreted by the Chairs [rfc2418]. > > > I have done a preliminary/high-level review of the requirements document > (see details below); I don't think it currently is in a state to provide > adequate material for WG discussion. Besides specific requirements, the > text should include a clear justification for the WG to reach a consensus. > The current version doesn't properly cover these aspects. > > The document points to the WG Charter in a couple of places as > justification for the work. Recommendation: Focus on the technical aspects > and not whether something is in the Charter or not! If there is WG > consensus, a Charter can be amended to include new work. On the other > hand, while a Charter is used to provide scope and focus, it must not be > used as justification for doing work in the absence of discussion and > consensus. > > > The critical step towards adopting a solution (or solutions) is engaged > discussion of the requirements. After looking at the document (comments > below), I don't think it provides a good base for analysis. > The expectation is for the requirements to be clear, specific, measurable, > and to justify their applicability in the solution. > > In consultation with the Chairs, we expect a revised requirements document > *before* IETF 109. As I mentioned above, more engagement is needed in its > development. Ideally, the text will be discussed on the list as it > evolves. If a live discussion is required, the Chairs will organize one > (an interim meeting, if there is enough time before IETF 109). > > Greg is the Chair responsible for this process. [Side note: Tony has > decided to remove himself as co-author of one of the proposals. His > comments will be considered as coming from a WG participant.] > > > If anyone has concerns about this message, please contact me directly. > Again, I won't participate in the WG discussions, but (if needed) may > provide additional feedback related to my review of > draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 (below). > > > Thanks!! > > > Alvaro. > > > > > > Review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 > > This is an informal review. While I expect this document to serve as a > discussion point for the WG, and for it to *not* be published as an RFC, I > have strong concerns about its contents. > > Note that the intent of providing a review at this point is to aid in > progressing the IPv6-related discussion. Any consensus on the specific > requirements should come from the WG, guided by the Chairs. > > Consider all my comments as my personal opinion. > > > === > > In general, the requirements listed are either too vague or not well > justified. The objective "to help the BIER WG evaluate the BIER v6 > requirements" cannot be met unless there is clarity that can lead to > engaged discussion. > > > The document starts by explaining the problem space (from the > Introduction): > > As clarified in the working-group, "BIER natively in IPv6" means BIER > not > encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet. This may include native IPv6 > encapsulation and generic IPv6 tunnelling. > > > I didn't look at the archive, but I'm sure the WG can do a better job!! > > This description is vague (""...natively in IPv6" means BIER not > encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet"), recursive (native "may include > native") and confusing (native "may include native...and...tunnelling > [sic]"). > > Note that the Problem Statement itself ("to transport BUM packets, with > BIER headers, in an IPv6 environment.") is straightforward -- the > expectation of what is required as a solution is not. > > > Two conceptual solution models are presented. The description of the > "Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering model from > rfc8279. In the best case, the terminology doesn't match; but I think that > the description might introduce new concepts. Note also that the statement > that "BIER-MPLS could use this approach directly since BIER-MPLS is based > on MPLS" seems to contradict the definition of "natively in IPv6". > > The description of the "Native IPv6 Model" gets a slightly different > treatment; for example, it includes benefits. Note that this model also > mentions "a trusted IPv6-based domain" while comparing the model to SRv6, > *and* talking about a "wider inter-AS scope". These seem to be > contradictions as a trusted domain is typically aligned to a single > administrative entity [rfc8402]. Again, the terminology may not be in > alignment...or more discussion may be needed on the scope. > > > > On to the requirements. As far as requirement levels go, I recommend that > you use three levels instead of two: required, recommended, and optional. > The level should be justified depending on the potential deployment or > solution model. > > > Some of the mandatory requirements listed are obvious and probably don't > need even to be mentioned. That is the case for: > > 352 4.1.2. Support BIER architecture > 361 4.1.3. Conform to existing IPv6 Spec > 368 4.1.4. Support deployment with Non-BFR routers > > > Some of the requirements are not clear -- they need a better description > and clear justification. > > 345 4.1.1. L2 Agnostic > > 347 The solution must be agnostic to the underlying L2 data link > type. > 348 The solution needs to support P2P ethernet links as well as > shared > 349 media ethernet links without requiring the LAN switch to > perform BIER > 350 snooping. > > Agnostic to the L2 data link, but also needs to support specific > topologies. That is a contradiction. Also, where is "BIER snooping" > defined? > > > 376 4.1.5. Support inter-AS multicast deployment > > 378 Inter-AS multicast support is needed for ease of provisioning > the > 379 P2MP transport service to enterprises. This could greatly > increase > 380 the scalability of BIER, as it is usually considered to be > suitable > 381 only for small intra-AS scenarios. > > rfc8279 talks about a single BIER domain. There is no discussion about > BIER domains in the context of inter-AS operation in this draft or > draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain. Again, in the best case, we have a > terminology mismatch. Still, it is not clear if the text proposes new > functionality -- and using draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain as the base > for a mandatory requirement doesn't seem correct without WG consensus. > > > 383 4.1.6. Support Simple Encapsulation > > 385 The solution must avoid requiring different encapsulation > types. A > 386 solution needs to do careful trade-off analysis and select one > 387 encapsulation as its proposal for best coverage of various > scenarios. > > Based on the description of "natively in IPv6", it seems like anything > that is "not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet" should be ok. What is the > justification behind one encapsulation? It sounds like this requirement > opens the door to multiple solutions, each with different encapsulations -- > doesn't that contradict a mandatory requirement of one? > > > Finally, we find the security requirement: > > 389 4.1.7. Support Deployment Security > > 391 The proposed solution must include careful security > considerations, > 392 including all that is already considered in BIER architecture > RFC8279 > 393 and RFC8296, and other security concerns that may raise due to > the > 394 addition of IPv6. > > I want to highlight the obvious nature of "must include careful security > considerations", which is a documentation issue -- there are no specific > security requirements on the solution itself? No particular mention of any > security aspect. What is the technical need? :-( > > > The optional requirements don't fare much better. In general, please > clarify and justify them. > > Some of the optional requirements seem to be associated with unexplained > scenarios. For example, the support for MVPN or IPSEC...and the specific > need to forward "in hardware fast path". > > Others seem to make improper assumptions (for example, as far as I know, > there is no existing standard OAM method) or suggest potential enhancements > ("enhance the capability of BIER leveraging the BIER-MTU" > ??). > > > In summary, the list of requirements presented is not clear or adequately > justified. It is not conducive to a WG discussion about the requirements > themselves...much less about potential solutions. > --00000000000089872b05af986aca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Jingron= g,

    Sorry, no, it doesn't appear that much of the dir= ection provided by WG members on the list, nor the WG Chairs, nor the AD wa= s heeded at all. A requirements document needs to provide requirements - on= ly. This doc is still mistakenly written as a solutions comparison marketin= g doc - Section 3 does not belong in this doc. The purpose of the reqs doc = is to provide a guide for the WG to follow in determining 1) IF a new encap= is needed, and if so, 2) what any proposed solution needs to address that = cannot be addressed with the available tools today. ONLY then will this doc= provide the guidance we need to evaluate 1).

    It&#= 39;s clear to me the current authors have little intention=C2=A0of followin= g the direction of the WG. At this time I recommend that we either:

    1) Replace/refresh the authors with people willing to wor= k with the BIER WG members at large, and within the guidlines of the IETF.<= /div>

    or

    2) de-adopt this docum= ent entirely. The WG as a whole can determine=C2=A0if I wishes to restart t= his effort.

    - Shep
    (chairs)
    <= /div>

    On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:48 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:<= br>
    Hello Alvaro, Wg,
    Firstly thank you alvaro and the chairs for the clear directing!
    The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the dire= ction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed.
    Your further comments, corrections, complaints, compliments are all welcome= .

    Thanks
    Jingrong

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 10:19 PM
    To: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; draft-xie-bie= r-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org; draft-zhang-bier-bierin6@ietf.org; draft= -pfister-bier-over-ipv6@ietf.org; draft-xu-bier-encapsulation@ietf.org
    Cc:     bier@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.o= rg
    Subject: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions

    Hello all!

    I am directing this message to the authors of the BIER in IPv6-related work= .=C2=A0 I am also copying the WG because this work needs more engagement[*]= , making sure I don't miss anyone.

    =C2=A0 [*] More engagement in the form of substantive discussions from non-=
    =C2=A0 authors, and diversity of affiliations.


    Some of you raised concerns to the IESG about the speed at which the IPv6-r= elated work has been moving, and the ability to discuss it during WG meetin= gs.=C2=A0 In response, I am providing my opinion of the current state and, = after consultation with the Chairs, reinforcing the required steps to move = any work forward.

    Note that my intent is not to insert myself in the discussions, but to get = them back on track.=C2=A0 All decisions should be made by WG consensus as i= nterpreted by the Chairs [rfc2418].


    I have done a preliminary/high-level review of the requirements document (s= ee details below); I don't think it currently is in a state to provide = adequate material for WG discussion.=C2=A0 Besides specific requirements, t= he text should include a clear justification for the WG to reach a consensu= s.=C2=A0 The current version doesn't properly cover these aspects.

    The document points to the WG Charter in a couple of places as justificatio= n for the work.=C2=A0 Recommendation: Focus on the technical aspects and no= t whether something is in the Charter or not!=C2=A0 If there is WG consensu= s, a Charter can be amended to include new work.=C2=A0 On the other hand, w= hile a Charter is used to provide scope and focus, it must not be used as j= ustification for doing work in the absence of discussion and consensus.


    The critical step towards adopting a solution (or solutions) is engaged dis= cussion of the requirements.=C2=A0 After looking at the document (comments = below), I don't think it provides a good base for analysis.
    The expectation is for the requirements to be clear, specific, measurable, = and to justify their applicability in the solution.

    In consultation with the Chairs, we expect a revised requirements document = *before* IETF 109.=C2=A0 As I mentioned above, more engagement is needed in= its development.=C2=A0 Ideally, the text will be discussed on the list as = it evolves.=C2=A0 If a live discussion is required, the Chairs will organiz= e one (an interim meeting, if there is enough time before IETF 109).

    Greg is the Chair responsible for this process. =C2=A0[Side note: Tony has = decided to remove himself as co-author of one of the proposals.=C2=A0 His c= omments will be considered as coming from a WG participant.]


    If anyone has concerns about this message, please contact me directly.
    Again, I won't participate in the WG discussions, but (if needed) may p= rovide additional feedback related to my review of
    draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 (below).


    Thanks!!


    Alvaro.





    Review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06

    This is an informal review.=C2=A0 While I expect this document to serve as = a discussion point for the WG, and for it to *not* be published as an RFC, = I have strong concerns about its contents.

    Note that the intent of providing a review at this point is to aid in progr= essing the IPv6-related discussion.=C2=A0 Any consensus on the specific req= uirements should come from the WG, guided by the Chairs.

    Consider all my comments as my personal opinion.


    =3D=3D=3D

    In general, the requirements listed are either too vague or not well justif= ied.=C2=A0 The objective "to help the BIER WG evaluate the BIER v6 req= uirements" cannot be met unless there is clarity that can lead to enga= ged discussion.


    The document starts by explaining the problem space (from the Introduction)= :

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0As clarified in the working-group, "BIER natively in IPv6= " means BIER not
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet.=C2=A0 This may include nativ= e IPv6
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation and generic IPv6 tunnelling.


    I didn't look at the archive, but I'm sure the WG can do a better j= ob!!

    This description is vague (""...natively in IPv6" means BIER= not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet"), recursive (native "may i= nclude
    native") and confusing (native "may include native...and...tunnel= ling [sic]").

    Note that the Problem Statement itself ("to transport BUM packets, wit= h BIER headers, in an IPv6 environment.") is straightforward -- the ex= pectation of what is required as a solution is not.


    Two conceptual solution models are presented.=C2=A0 The description of the = "Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering mo= del from rfc8279.=C2=A0 In the best case, the terminology doesn't match= ; but I think that the description might introduce new concepts.=C2=A0 Note= also that the statement that "BIER-MPLS could use this approach direc= tly since BIER-MPLS is based on MPLS" seems to contradict the definiti= on of "natively in IPv6".

    The description of the "Native IPv6 Model" gets a slightly differ= ent treatment; for example, it includes benefits.=C2=A0 Note that this mode= l also mentions "a trusted IPv6-based domain" while comparing the= model to SRv6, *and* talking about a "wider inter-AS scope".=C2= =A0 These seem to be contradictions as a trusted domain is typically aligne= d to a single administrative entity [rfc8402].=C2=A0 Again, the terminology= may not be in alignment...or more discussion may be needed on the scope.


    On to the requirements.=C2=A0 As far as requirement levels go, I recommend = that you use three levels instead of two: required, recommended, and option= al.=C2=A0 The level should be justified depending on the potential deployme= nt or solution model.


    Some of the mandatory requirements listed are obvious and probably don'= t need even to be mentioned.=C2=A0 That is the case for:

    352=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.2.=C2=A0 Support BIER architecture
    361=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.3.=C2=A0 Conform to existing IPv6 Spec
    368=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.4.=C2=A0 Support deployment with Non-BFR routers=


    Some of the requirements are not clear -- they need a better description an= d clear justification.

    345=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.1.=C2=A0 L2 Agnostic

    347=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution must be agnostic to the underly= ing L2 data link type.
    348=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution needs to support P2P ethernet l= inks as well as shared
    349=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 media ethernet links without requiring the L= AN switch to perform BIER
    350=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 snooping.

    Agnostic to the L2 data link, but also needs to support specific topologies= .=C2=A0 That is a contradiction.=C2=A0 Also, where is "BIER snooping&q= uot;
    defined?


    376=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.5.=C2=A0 Support inter-AS multicast deployment
    378=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Inter-AS multicast support is needed for eas= e of provisioning the
    379=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 P2MP transport service to enterprises.=C2=A0= This could greatly increase
    380=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the scalability of BIER, as it is usually co= nsidered to be suitable
    381=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 only for small intra-AS scenarios.

    rfc8279 talks about a single BIER domain.=C2=A0 There is no discussion abou= t BIER domains in the context of inter-AS operation in this draft or draft-= geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain.=C2=A0 Again, in the best case, we have a termi= nology mismatch. Still, it is not clear if the text proposes new functional= ity -- and using draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain as the base for a mandat= ory requirement doesn't seem correct without WG consensus.


    383=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.6.=C2=A0 Support Simple Encapsulation

    385=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution must avoid requiring different = encapsulation types. =C2=A0A
    386=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solution needs to do careful trade-off analy= sis and select one
    387=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encapsulation as its proposal for best cover= age of various scenarios.

    Based on the description of "natively in IPv6", it seems like any= thing that is "not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet" should be ok= .=C2=A0 What is the justification behind one encapsulation?=C2=A0 It sounds= like this requirement opens the door to multiple solutions, each with diff= erent encapsulations -- doesn't that contradict a mandatory requirement= of one?


    Finally, we find the security requirement:

    389=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.7.=C2=A0 Support Deployment Security

    391=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The proposed solution must include careful s= ecurity considerations,
    392=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 including all that is already considered in = BIER architecture RFC8279
    393=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and RFC8296, and other security concerns tha= t may raise due to the
    394=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 addition of IPv6.

    I want to highlight the obvious nature of "must include careful securi= ty considerations", which is a documentation issue -- there are no spe= cific security requirements on the solution itself?=C2=A0 No particular men= tion of any security aspect.=C2=A0 What is the technical need? =C2=A0:-(

    The optional requirements don't fare much better.=C2=A0 In general, ple= ase clarify and justify them.

    Some of the optional requirements seem to be associated with unexplained sc= enarios.=C2=A0 For example, the support for MVPN or IPSEC...and the specifi= c need to forward "in hardware fast path".

    Others seem to make improper assumptions (for example, as far as I know, th= ere is no existing standard OAM method) or suggest potential enhancements (= "enhance the capability of BIER leveraging the BIER-MTU"
    =C2=A0??).


    In summary, the list of requirements presented is not clear or adequately j= ustified.=C2=A0 It is not conducive to a WG discussion about the requiremen= ts themselves...much less about potential solutions.
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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k2KJ0ddK9-n2; Sun, 20 Sep 2020 18:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 516BA3A10F9; Sun, 20 Sep 2020 18:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id d15so12132975lfq.11; Sun, 20 Sep 2020 18:03:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=XWYOUtmEPfYVVjVq15YKkjHdYi7TRFa/oN6BWA1cNyA=; b=ipzBbbkiv42fdt85RaEhh9X5uJdPsLlCWVX4mE6/nSsKrPCTj26cH2e0+mf8zYenW7 9aWM7rhn2dAljquv5EicGX+vMs4BF8sUNXxJF89JlJibzcHcdRvnd2jLCGVJJUX768c1 CAhS2xWTIpGzxnCZr1019UwyyxVPj/ZGe6n2Vn5Y6jezlnZpTO+2/QKiN8RRWMkSqKJa 1CLb50vKk3eM2VkIikdYVUYTnePOEBzbfF015bPK7YkTTZDypEcssnvtZmcWQgwOBiAD TtsjSV2vmRNZBZP0ZbHFJxf6aNROoKX99PCnw4OI67FjdtylHAJz73Bpw5WiUHFuVbOs cqSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=XWYOUtmEPfYVVjVq15YKkjHdYi7TRFa/oN6BWA1cNyA=; b=jvd2uGTgttso2l3kXvxKwuXBqIUdbOs2POnAHsxSq2UUa/fXa3K7NY/6xN2XzWKxp0 8So2HYAAu80dy+7kPQK/DlLwc5Y8SKoMY9DaTmgD8/jto9mGjkWbijgq+dfHQ3bVu5qd Uny3kKgqK2cZ1R+4QkFOomjWRvyoRFZWt5vIEVE1/VBhKDjPARy+mbN7P5g0hJBxIbtL VqNalSuD9VijmLe022Y+2o1wlda1FWsSWL5FHn3B5q11r2pcs8ocGiPMX+x7xOoO4ylU 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Sep 2020 01:04:06 -0000 --0000000000009d3f5305afc86c92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi All, would like to thank Authors for promptly responding to the IPR poll. The result - no IPR reported. Looking forward to your response to my comments and the publication of the updated version. Regards, Greg M (as the Shepherd) On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:56 AM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear WG Chairs, > we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the draft. > > Dear Authors, > thank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is elegant > and presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also a number > of nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions: > > - In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses > SHOULD: > > For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisioned with > and signal the same BAR and IPA values. > > Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require a change > of the text that follows? > > > - Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language? > > It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both > algorithm and constraints semantics. > From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for > a router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a > default value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to > state that explicitly. > > > - There is a pair of requirements in Section 2: > > When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics > MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, > its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. > The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to > make RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable? > > Nits: > > - AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead > reference an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401". > - rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322 > ) explain that: > > Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles and upon first > use in the document. The full expansion of the text should be > followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses. > > Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that rule. > > > - BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use. > - s/a IPA/an IPA/ > - s/a RCRA/an RCRA/ > - s/with semantics/ with the semantics/ > - s/are augmented/is augmented/ > - s/secuity/security/ > - s/thanks/thank/ > > > Regards, > Greg > > --0000000000009d3f5305afc86c92 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi All,
    would like to thank Authors for promptly respo= nding to the IPR poll. The result - no IPR reported.
    Looking forw= ard to your response to my comments and the publication of the updated vers= ion.

    Regards,
    Greg M (as the Shepherd)

    On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:56 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
    Dear WG Chairs,
    = we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the draft.

    Dear Authors,
    thank you for the well-written document= . The proposed solution is elegant and presented clearly. I have several co= mments and questions. Also a number of nits that may be worth your attentio= n. First, comments and questions:
    • In Section 2 the requir= ement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHOULD:
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisioned with
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0and signal the same BAR and IPA values.
    =
    Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require a ch= ange of the text that follows?
    • Could the followin= g benefit from the use of the normative language?
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is ex= pected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0alg= orithm and constraints semantics.
    From the text that follows, it seems t= hat both semantics are required for a router to calculate the underlay path= . Is that correct? Also, is there a default value of a semantic? If that is= the case, it would be helpful to state that explicitly.
  • There is a pair of requirements in Section 2:
    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0When a= new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0MUST be specified.=C2=A0 For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IP= A,
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.
    The last sent= ence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make RC/RA semant= ics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable?
    Nits= :
    • AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead r= eference an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401".
    • r= ules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322) explain th= at:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Abbreviations should be expanded in document titl= es and upon first
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0use in the document.=C2=A0 The full expan= sion of the text should be
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0followed by the abbreviation its= elf in parentheses.
    Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don&= #39;t follow that rule.
    • BFR (Section 2) needs expan= sion on the first use.
    • s/a IPA/an IPA/
    • s/a RCRA/an RCRA/
    • s/with semantics/ with the semantics/
    • s/are augmented/is augm= ented/
    • s/secuity/security/
    • s/thanks/thank/
    Regards,
    Greg

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Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:16:32 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Greg Mirsky , "draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org" , BIER WG Chairs , BIER WG Thread-Topic: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa Thread-Index: AQHWhspHq9ds1rYsk0ajYV2kxa+Z76lzZfZg Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:16:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.5.0.60 dlp-reaction: no-action msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-09-21T18:16:29Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=3cf5c99e-706d-4d5a-941e-cce449ae23ce; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 authentication-results: gmail.com; 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boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB5974D1D0CB211DB32FBC69F0D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_" --_000_BYAPR05MB5974D1D0CB211DB32FBC69F0D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg M., Thanks for shepherding and the thorough review! Please see zzh> below. Juniper Business Use Only From: Greg Mirsky Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:56 PM To: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs = ; BIER WG Subject: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa [External Email. Be cautious of content] Dear WG Chairs, we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the draft. Dear Authors, thank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is elegant a= nd presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also a number = of nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions: * In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHO= ULD: For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisioned with and signal the same BAR and IPA values. Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require a change = of the text that follows? Zzh> These are always headaches to me. Routers not configured with same BAR= /IPA values will not consider each other as BIER capable so things should s= till work. Strictly speaking, using SHOULD seems to be fine, but I changed = it to MUST. Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language? It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both algorithm and constraints semantics. >From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for a= router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a d= efault value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to sta= te that explicitly. Zzh> According to the following text: ... Any of the RC/BC/BA could be "NULL", which means there are no corresponding constraints or algorithm. Zzh> So the text you quoted should be fine. There is no default value, as = all must be clearly defined: When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. * There is a pair of requirements in Section 2: When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make= RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable? Zzh> Changed as suggested. Nits: * AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead reference= an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401". Zzh> Fixed. * rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322) = explain that: Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles and upon first use in the document. The full expansion of the text should be followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses. Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that rule. * BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use. * s/a IPA/an IPA/ * s/a RCRA/an RCRA/ * s/with semantics/ with the semantics/ * s/are augmented/is augmented/ * s/secuity/security/ * s/thanks/thank/ zzh> All the above are fixed. Please see attached diff. zzh> Thanks! Zzh> Jeffrey Regards, Greg --_000_BYAPR05MB5974D1D0CB211DB32FBC69F0D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Greg M.,

     

    Thanks for shepherding and the thorough review!=

    Please see zzh> below.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g= t;
    Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:56 PM
    To: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs= @ietf.org>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
    Subject: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa

     

    <= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo= r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]

     

    Dear WG Chairs,

    we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR p= oll on the draft.

     

    Dear Authors,

    thank you for the well-written document. The propose= d solution is elegant and presented clearly. I have several comments and qu= estions. Also a number of nits that may be worth your attention. First, com= ments and questions:

    • In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHOULD:

       For a particular sub-domain, all router= s SHOULD be provisioned with

       and signal the same BAR and IPA values.=

    Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and woul= d not require a change of the text that follows?

     

    Zzh> These are always headaches to me. Routers no= t configured with same BAR/IPA values will not consider each other as BIER = capable so things should still work. Strictly speaking, using SHOULD seems = to be fine, but I changed it to MUST.

     

    Could the following benefit from the use of the norm= ative language?

       It is expected that both the BAR and IP= A values could have both
       algorithm and constraints semantics.
    >From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for a= router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a d= efault value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to sta= te that explicitly.

    Zzh> According to the following text:<= /p>

     

       …  Any of the RC/BC/BA could be "NULL", which means there are no

       corresponding constraints or algo= rithm.

     

    Zzh> So the text you quoted should be fine. There=  is no default value, as all must be clearly defined:

     

       When a new B=
AR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics

       MUST be spec=
ified.  For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA,
    

       its RC/RA se=
mantics MUST also be clear.
    

     
    • There is a pair of requirements in Section 2:

       When a new BAR value is defined, its co= rresponding BC/BA semantics
       MUST be specified.  For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as= a BIER IPA,
       its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.
    The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make= RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable?

     

    Zzh> Changed as suggested.

     

    Nits:

    • AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead reference an RF= C as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401".

    Zzh> Fixed.

       Abbreviations should be expanded in doc= ument titles and upon first
       use in the document.  The full expansion of the text shou= ld be
       followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses.=

    Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that = rule.

    • BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use.
    • s/a IPA/an IPA/
    • s/a RCRA/an RCRA/
    • s/with semantics/ with the semantics/
    • s/are augmented/is augmented/
    • s/secuity/security/
    • s/thanks/thank/

    zzh> All the above are fixed. Please see attached= diff.

    zzh> Thanks!

    Zzh> Jeffrey

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

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scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009210128 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:18:24 -0000 --_004_BYAPR05MB59749830541BCF042FD72AD1D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB59749830541BCF042FD72AD1D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_" --_000_BYAPR05MB59749830541BCF042FD72AD1D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops. Wrong version of the diff was attached. Please see this one. Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 2:17 PM To: Greg Mirsky ; draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; = BIER WG Chairs ; BIER WG Subject: RE: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa Hi Greg M., Thanks for shepherding and the thorough review! Please see zzh> below. Juniper Business Use Only From: Greg Mirsky > Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:56 PM To: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs >; BIE= R WG > Subject: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa [External Email. Be cautious of content] Dear WG Chairs, we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the draft. Dear Authors, thank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is elegant a= nd presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also a number = of nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions: * In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHO= ULD: For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisioned with and signal the same BAR and IPA values. Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require a change = of the text that follows? Zzh> These are always headaches to me. Routers not configured with same BAR= /IPA values will not consider each other as BIER capable so things should s= till work. Strictly speaking, using SHOULD seems to be fine, but I changed = it to MUST. Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language? It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both algorithm and constraints semantics. >From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for a= router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a d= efault value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to sta= te that explicitly. Zzh> According to the following text: ... Any of the RC/BC/BA could be "NULL", which means there are no corresponding constraints or algorithm. Zzh> So the text you quoted should be fine. There is no default value, as = all must be clearly defined: When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. * There is a pair of requirements in Section 2: When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make= RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable? Zzh> Changed as suggested. Nits: * AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead reference= an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401". Zzh> Fixed. * rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322) = explain that: Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles and upon first use in the document. The full expansion of the text should be followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses. Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that rule. * BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use. * s/a IPA/an IPA/ * s/a RCRA/an RCRA/ * s/with semantics/ with the semantics/ * s/are augmented/is augmented/ * s/secuity/security/ * s/thanks/thank/ zzh> All the above are fixed. Please see attached diff. zzh> Thanks! Zzh> Jeffrey Regards, Greg --_000_BYAPR05MB59749830541BCF042FD72AD1D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Oops. Wrong version of the diff was attached. Please= see this one.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 2:17 PM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-bier-bar-i= pa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>; BIER WG <bier@= ietf.org>
    Subject: RE: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa=

     

    Hi Greg M.,

     

    Thanks for shepherding and the thorough review!=

    Please see zzh> below.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:56 PM
    To: draft-ietf-b= ier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
    Subject: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa

     

    <= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo= r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]

     

    Dear WG Chairs,

    we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR p= oll on the draft.

     

    Dear Authors,

    thank you for the well-written document. The propose= d solution is elegant and presented clearly. I have several comments and qu= estions. Also a number of nits that may be worth your attention. First, com= ments and questions:

    • In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHOULD:

       For a particular sub-domain, all router= s SHOULD be provisioned with

       and signal the same BAR and IPA values.=

    Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and woul= d not require a change of the text that follows?

     

    Zzh> These are always headaches to me. Routers no= t configured with same BAR/IPA values will not consider each other as BIER = capable so things should still work. Strictly speaking, using SHOULD seems = to be fine, but I changed it to MUST.

     

    Could the following benefit from the use of the norm= ative language?

       It is expected that both the BAR and IP= A values could have both
       algorithm and constraints semantics.
    >From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for a= router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a d= efault value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to sta= te that explicitly.

    Zzh> According to the following text:<= /p>

     

       …  Any of the RC/BC/BA could be "NULL", which means there are no

       corresponding constraints or algo= rithm.

     

    Zzh> So the text you quoted should be fine. There=  is no default value, as all must be clearly defined:

     

       When a new B=
AR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics

       MUST be spec=
ified.  For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA,
    

       its RC/RA se=
mantics MUST also be clear.
    

     
    • There is a pair of requirements in Section 2:

       When a new BAR value is defined, its co= rresponding BC/BA semantics
       MUST be specified.  For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as= a BIER IPA,
       its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.
    The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make= RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable?

     

    Zzh> Changed as suggested.

     

    Nits:

    • AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead reference an RF= C as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401".

    Zzh> Fixed.

       Abbreviations should be expanded in doc= ument titles and upon first
       use in the document.  The full expansion of the text shou= ld be
       followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses.=

    Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that = rule.

    • BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use.
    • s/a IPA/an IPA/
    • s/a RCRA/an RCRA/
    • s/with semantics/ with the semantics/
    • s/are augmented/is augmented/
    • s/secuity/security/
    • s/thanks/thank/

    zzh> All the above are fixed. Please see attached= diff.

    zzh> Thanks!

    Zzh> Jeffrey

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    --_000_BYAPR05MB59749830541BCF042FD72AD1D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_-- --_004_BYAPR05MB59749830541BCF042FD72AD1D43A0BYAPR05MB5974namp_ Content-Type: text/html; name="Diff_ draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa.txt - draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-06.txt.html" Content-Description: Diff_ draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa.txt - draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-06.txt.html Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Diff_ draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa.txt - draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-06.txt.html"; size=36285; creation-date="Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:17:42 GMT"; modification-date="Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:18:07 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIGh0bWwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBYSFRNTCAxLjAgVHJhbnNpdGlvbmFs Ly9FTiIgImh0dHA6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnL1RSL3hodG1sMS9EVEQveGh0bWwxLXRyYW5zaXRpb25h bC5kdGQiPgo8IS0tIHNhdmVkIGZyb20gdXJsPSgwMDMwKWh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcv cmZjZGlmZiAtLT4KPGh0bWwgeG1sbnM9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnLzE5OTkveGh0bWwiPjxo ZWFkPjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIgY29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBj 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v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nvNkKoDaqfVyGQKeAJ+hEnSzdJIVpLW8hpyM+Ewy/N8=; b=DE+/tQzwJ3I0UXH+CBApTz+4Ry2QcjwZLoeeZkr+zRhjuCgTj45UkWVsuZfgU+TFuh HPA6sxybm/v5tzX6nJd93NIcxn9ZsYoARtdDDHYryN+7j744V4ke33i0A61dN8W5FU8O /+rc8x4pd3hOuobI9rtiC+vETlEjG2TNmBra/g6sYhygF9CCTlt+XgfqYuRCE2qZZMpA pBqoGjoewton8V0EEsSUHp3v6yQlBZxKdwNyTD5U7xN+36grQKe4bpFY2RG/dsLVnrbl GRhJcH+CwdShpnO6bIs7zXBGu1g+0DPtpOOOvBAiop9055DWBp61K8rLH57yV7y9Xjki Mrqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nvNkKoDaqfVyGQKeAJ+hEnSzdJIVpLW8hpyM+Ewy/N8=; b=Po5/HnXZnrCB+IanYWJsHPqP0NpUl/aofcITV9D9XSuMcAQ8NbbEWybTRxWdP1btl0 VTuRs+jHtSwBxFnkIP5Pjpwqt9ioaTbClO444PFvbxqBEITe8J1RTltwmzk8kqOLqAiQ oCnmESEj8m0CgUa3ZTIlNCWZhJOWVsP4EG3S5UZF/ghRoHSZ8crWpUcfRdzAldTvt0oP 4Zb7xair7e3Q41jt4NC5rXvyo5EIkmhu2EFhtSo9iiLJJUSfnsql1AzOZbgpNtK2r/Iu Eqs7rY96BEIWFl9qtu9GmNLZwP9cBX0PkwFTk73E5c7fOG3fCme2J2yzOTehAUiREuUG npmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gOej1DI569KTPs2NteJGu3IpksY0XfMTMx0CXShYrbOrHygMt ARHa6si1XegrcBb8kr3V11V7xYc16etC5c5nZ3mBx9Qd X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw2rAfLLcyx7X8h9GEjggii//wY61yD6finM6ndpanw6mRNVMBrqkwUG0RE+F51zuiHxrcmJZaVTlgm3tqYAFA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:110:: with SMTP id a16mr404472ljb.110.1600717118060; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 12:38:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 12:38:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Cc: "draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org" , BIER WG Chairs , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000353b5105afd7fff9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 19:38:43 -0000 --000000000000353b5105afd7fff9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeffrey, thank you for the detailed clarifications. All changes look good to me. Please feel free to upload the working version at your convenience. Regards, Greg On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:18 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > Oops. Wrong version of the diff was attached. Please see this one. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > *Sent:* Monday, September 21, 2020 2:17 PM > *To:* Greg Mirsky ; > draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs ; > BIER WG > *Subject:* RE: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa > > > > Hi Greg M., > > > > Thanks for shepherding and the thorough review! > > Please see zzh> below. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Greg Mirsky > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:56 PM > *To:* draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs < > bier-chairs@ietf.org>; BIER WG > *Subject:* Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa > > > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > > > Dear WG Chairs, > > we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the draft. > > > > Dear Authors, > > thank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is elegant > and presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also a numb= er > of nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions: > > - In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses > SHOULD: > > For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisioned with > > and signal the same BAR and IPA values. > > Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require a chang= e > of the text that follows? > > > > Zzh> These are always headaches to me. Routers not configured with same > BAR/IPA values will not consider each other as BIER capable so things > should still work. Strictly speaking, using SHOULD seems to be fine, but = I > changed it to MUST. > > > > Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language? > > It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both > algorithm and constraints semantics. > From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for > a router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there = a > default value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to > state that explicitly. > > Zzh> According to the following text: > > > > =E2=80=A6 Any of the RC/BC/BA could be "NULL", which means there are = no > > corresponding constraints or algorithm. > > > > Zzh> So the text you quoted should be fine. There is no default value, a= s > all must be clearly defined: > > > > When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics > > MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, > > its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. > > > > > - There is a pair of requirements in Section 2: > > When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics > MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, > its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. > The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to > make RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptabl= e? > > > > Zzh> Changed as suggested. > > > > Nits: > > - AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead > reference an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401". > > Zzh> Fixed. > > - rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322 > ) > explain that: > > Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles and upon first > use in the document. The full expansion of the text should be > followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses. > > Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that rule. > > > - BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use. > - s/a IPA/an IPA/ > - s/a RCRA/an RCRA/ > - s/with semantics/ with the semantics/ > - s/are augmented/is augmented/ > - s/secuity/security/ > - s/thanks/thank/ > > zzh> All the above are fixed. Please see attached diff. > > zzh> Thanks! > > Zzh> Jeffrey > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > --000000000000353b5105afd7fff9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Jeffrey,
    thank you for the detailed=C2=A0clarificat= ions. All changes look good to me. Please feel free to upload the working v= ersion at your convenience.

    Regards,
    Gre= g

    On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:18 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> wrote:
    <= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

    Oops. Wrong version of the diff was attached. Please= see this one.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

    From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 2:17 PM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org;= BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
    Subject: RE: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa=

    =C2=A0

    Hi Greg M.,

    =C2=A0

    Thanks for shepherding and the thorough review!

    Please see zzh> below.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:56 PM
    To: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>;= BIER WG <bier@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    [External Email. Be cautious of content]

    =C2=A0

    Dear WG Chairs,

    we're waiting for one author to respond to the I= PR poll on the draft.

    =C2=A0

    Dear Authors,

    thank you for the well-written document. The propose= d solution is elegant and presented clearly. I have several comments and qu= estions. Also a number of nits that may be worth your attention. First, com= ments and questions:

    • In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHOULD:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0For a particular sub-domain, all router= s SHOULD be provisioned with

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0and signal the same BAR and IPA values.=

    Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and woul= d not require a change of the text that follows?

    =C2=A0

    Zzh> These are always headaches to me. Routers no= t configured with same BAR/IPA values will not consider each other as BIER = capable so things should still work. Strictly speaking, using SHOULD seems = to be fine, but I changed it to MUST.

    =C2=A0

    Could the following benefit from the use of the norm= ative language?

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is expected that both the BAR and IP= A values could have both
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm and constraints semantics.
    >From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for a= router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a d= efault value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to sta= te that explicitly.

    Zzh> According to the following text:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=A6=C2=A0 Any of the RC/BC/BA could be "NULL", which means there are no

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 corresponding constraints or algori= thm.

    =C2=A0

    Zzh> So the text you quoted should be fine. There= =C2=A0is no default value, as all must be clearly defined:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 When a new BAR=
 value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST be specif=
ied.=C2=A0 For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA,<=
/span>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 its RC/RA sema=
ntics MUST also be clear.
    

    =C2=A0
    • There is a pair of requirements in Section 2:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0When a new BAR value is defined, its co= rresponding BC/BA semantics
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST be specified.=C2=A0 For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as= a BIER IPA,
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.
    The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make= RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable?<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    Zzh> Changed as suggested.

    =C2=A0

    Nits:

    • AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead reference an RF= C as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401".

    Zzh> Fixed.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Abbreviations should be expanded in doc= ument titles and upon first
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0use in the document.=C2=A0 The full expansion of the text shou= ld be
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses.<= /u>

    Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow t= hat rule.

    • BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use.
    • s/a IPA/an IPA/
    • s/a RCRA/an RCRA/
    • s/with semantics/ with the semantics/
    • s/are augmented/is augmented/
    • s/secuity/security/
    • s/thanks/thank/

    zzh> All the above are fixed. Please see attached= diff.

    zzh> Thanks!

    Zzh> Jeffrey

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    --000000000000353b5105afd7fff9-- From nobody Tue Sep 22 18:49:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB623A0AAA; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 18:49:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <160082578108.30915.2689574525742278510@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 18:49:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-07.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 01:49:41 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER Underlay Path Calculation Algorithm and Constraints Authors : Zhaohui Zhang Antoni Przygienda Andrew Dolganow Hooman Bidgoli IJsbrand Wijnands Arkadiy Gulko Filename : draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-07.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2020-09-22 Abstract: This document specifies general rules for interaction between the BAR (BIER Algorithm) and IPA (IGP Algorithm) fields defined in ISIS/ OSPFv2 Extensions for BIER. The semantics for the BAR and IPA fields (when both or any of them is non-zero) defined in this document updates the semantics defined in RFC 8401 and RFC 8444. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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boundary="_000_MN2PR05MB59817B4311325CB858B1E586D4380MN2PR05MB5981namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR05MB5981.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4e9f364d-bdeb-4a4f-0538-08d85f6317c6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Sep 2020 01:50:47.6510 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: w1O/hE7DVqjmBm3KAIl6TsX9vKvzQ46sqNfTnVbEDXXkgG2nMdawp0Vr+8VqQjZbQbiJShW1fbpBjBI8BjKhdg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB6367 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-09-23_02:2020-09-21, 2020-09-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009230008 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 01:50:55 -0000 --_000_MN2PR05MB59817B4311325CB858B1E586D4380MN2PR05MB5981namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg, I have uploaded -07. Thanks! Jeffrey Juniper Business Use Only From: Greg Mirsky Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 3:38 PM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Cc: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs = ; BIER WG Subject: Re: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi Jeffrey, thank you for the detailed clarifications. All changes look good to me. Ple= ase feel free to upload the working version at your convenience. Regards, Greg On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:18 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > wrote: Oops. Wrong version of the diff was attached. Please see this one. Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 2:17 PM To: Greg Mirsky >; draf= t-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER= WG Chairs >; BIER WG > Subject: RE: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa Hi Greg M., Thanks for shepherding and the thorough review! Please see zzh> below. Juniper Business Use Only From: Greg Mirsky > Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:56 PM To: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs >; BIE= R WG > Subject: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa [External Email. Be cautious of content] Dear WG Chairs, we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the draft. Dear Authors, thank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is elegant a= nd presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also a number = of nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions: * In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHO= ULD: For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be provisioned with and signal the same BAR and IPA values. Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require a change = of the text that follows? Zzh> These are always headaches to me. Routers not configured with same BAR= /IPA values will not consider each other as BIER capable so things should s= till work. Strictly speaking, using SHOULD seems to be fine, but I changed = it to MUST. Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language? It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could have both algorithm and constraints semantics. >From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for a= router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a d= efault value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to sta= te that explicitly. Zzh> According to the following text: ... Any of the RC/BC/BA could be "NULL", which means there are no corresponding constraints or algorithm. Zzh> So the text you quoted should be fine. There is no default value, as = all must be clearly defined: When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. * There is a pair of requirements in Section 2: When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics MUST be specified. For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA, its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear. The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make= RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable? Zzh> Changed as suggested. Nits: * AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead reference= an RFC as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401". Zzh> Fixed. * rules for introducing abbreviations (Section 3.6 RFC 7322) = explain that: Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles and upon first use in the document. The full expansion of the text should be followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses. Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that rule. * BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use. * s/a IPA/an IPA/ * s/a RCRA/an RCRA/ * s/with semantics/ with the semantics/ * s/are augmented/is augmented/ * s/secuity/security/ * s/thanks/thank/ zzh> All the above are fixed. Please see attached diff. zzh> Thanks! Zzh> Jeffrey Regards, Greg --_000_MN2PR05MB59817B4311325CB858B1E586D4380MN2PR05MB5981namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Greg,

     

    I have uploaded -07.

    Thanks!

     

    Jeffrey

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g= t;
    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 3:38 PM
    To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
    Cc: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs= @ietf.org>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa=

     

    <= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo= r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]

     

    Hi Jeffrey,

    thank you for the detailed clarifications. All = changes look good to me. Please feel free to upload the working version at = your convenience.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:18 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Z= hang <zzhang@juniper.net> w= rote:

    Oops. Wrong version of the diff was attached. Please see this one.=

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 2:17 PM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; draft= -ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>; BIER WG &l= t;bier@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa=

     

    Hi Greg M.,

     

    Thanks for shepherding and the thorough review!

    Please see zzh> below.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 12:56 PM
    To: draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org; BIER WG Chairs <bier-chairs@ietf.org>;= BIER WG <bier@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Shepherd's review of draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa

     

    [External Email. Be cautious of content]=

     

    Dear WG Chairs,

    we're waiting for one author to respond to the IPR poll on the dra= ft.

     

    Dear Authors,

    thank you for the well-written document. The proposed solution is = elegant and presented clearly. I have several comments and questions. Also = a number of nits that may be worth your attention. First, comments and questions:

    • In Section 2 the requirement to provision BAR and IPA values uses SHOULD:

       For a particular sub-domain, all routers SHOULD be pr= ovisioned with

       and signal the same BAR and IPA values.

    Do you think that the MUST is more suitable and would not require = a change of the text that follows?

     

    Zzh> These are always headaches to me. Routers not configured w= ith same BAR/IPA values will not consider each other as BIER capable so thi= ngs should still work. Strictly speaking, using SHOULD seems to be fine, but I changed it to MUST.

     

    Could the following benefit from the use of the normative language= ?

       It is expected that both the BAR and IPA values could= have both
       algorithm and constraints semantics.
    >From the text that follows, it seems that both semantics are required for a= router to calculate the underlay path. Is that correct? Also, is there a d= efault value of a semantic? If that is the case, it would be helpful to sta= te that explicitly.

    Zzh> According to the following text:

     

       …  Any of the RC/BC/BA could be "NULL", which means there are no

       corresponding constraints or algorithm.<= o:p>

     

    Zzh> So the text you quoted should be fine. There  is no d= efault value, as all must be clearly defined:

     

       When a new B=
AR value is defined, its corresponding BC/BA semantics

       MUST be spec=
ified.  For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as a BIER IPA,<=
/o:p>
    

       its RC/RA se=
mantics MUST also be clear.
    

     
    • There is a pair of requirements in Section 2:

       When a new BAR value is defined, its corresponding BC= /BA semantics
       MUST be specified.  For a new IGP Algorithm to be used as= a BIER IPA,
       its RC/RA semantics MUST also be clear.
    The last sentence can benefit from mode details of what is required to make= RC/RA semantics clear. Would s/clear/clearly specified/ be acceptable?

     

    Zzh> Changed as suggested.

     

    Nits:

    • AFAIK, references are not used in an abstract text, instead reference an RF= C as text, e.g., "RFC 8444 and RFC 8401".

    Zzh> Fixed.

       Abbreviations should be expanded in document titles a= nd upon first
       use in the document.  The full expansion of the text shou= ld be
       followed by the abbreviation itself in parentheses.=

    Several cases, e.g., BAR and IPA, don't follow that rule.

    • BFR (Section 2) needs expansion on the first use.
    • s/a IPA/an IPA/
    • s/a RCRA/an RCRA/
    • s/with semantics/ with the semantics/
    • s/are augmented/is augmented/
    • s/secuity/security/
    • s/thanks/thank/

    zzh> All the above are fixed. Please see attached diff.

    zzh> Thanks!

    Zzh> Jeffrey

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    --_000_MN2PR05MB59817B4311325CB858B1E586D4380MN2PR05MB5981namp_-- From nobody Wed Sep 23 22:45:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C96863A185B; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 22:45:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QLt_sIJExZl3; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 22:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D56843A185A; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 22:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id j3so1422479vsm.0; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 22:45:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=j8AmftCDhRZuL7CIeJDKMNgBdxOHGaC+aF32V1AVlQs=; b=Icuob9ZtaJ6/MHJDvftMQbThhsGe/V+hWflud+9uy10nC2Q+E9167WB91M2dck6Ysc Jy8rXEw4r8jUelCtLYhZpIXQELbGhBSACtVColdli5o0vckC1PBEnAHRyMBO/d6THgxb t+tPfc3ZFzEHhHmOKZUM/0NkRwLYGogOpWCOf2ydr61bCEw3iodqt0/DxbJEAvXT7lhx m6NFrpBuPUNrhaPr1/ClG55lUtPOzTB4otPHiN8ZHiac1pBjD4y372ZOTGZmF1AtAF00 LEuxIAqI1UfQdFNC3TgnriiJL5/l/ZKKjX45cO6mUJAe4y2xelaGsSkCJexEwe63NWrZ xruw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=j8AmftCDhRZuL7CIeJDKMNgBdxOHGaC+aF32V1AVlQs=; b=LKHqx+utZOqudMo6MNyGnwqMIJrc+9boZsYReRqR6ztBS4fXGaJcTTFc6cjAilH8ep FeoGhQybvGjja4QKcC4sgumxKNDVgPF3564Ixm9502SIE3E5LtAfaa0bxm5O+6Eis3Sc vRcYrSBUvoblYJPSJvvWsWO6MxMf3viTWbUI2Prv/ygCTV3skL5zmJ4sPGprtFB1zShv NVzwftfYNhlkLo1Wj0DPEb2m+w8LQD+ghFsp/YluNFyyn5bDqoh9JU2Fs7F0ARwYwHgQ EtxCKpwdup2wFJAnsKf2Bzj4WD2uXZDjxAl6BUWAsU5RhU36LsizqBMXgJcaKrkahnwo Hw4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531E+RFj+UChEBibhI77otaUGgL3t2nHabqSX1TRE/RZoA494sXK 5f6lRlm8j6MJGUbS4A/H0a9BbcjA9BXt6d0hzkE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKClimXtbOflga/9BzX/ba6huzKM6ai5e9V5lRvt4Vfh8bU+nsooUs7/I7NaoBcxbVIZoXH6JdGuHaeXwR7F8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:36d:: with SMTP id f13mr2900073vsa.20.1600926299403; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 22:44:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 01:39:43 -0400 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000063392305b008b3e4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 05:45:06 -0000 --00000000000063392305b008b3e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, there seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had over the last several months. Understandably, all of us here in the WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to support SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS. It is critical that the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data plane for SRv6 support. We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a technology graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes. We the authors are all in agreement and running fast after that goal and understand the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft. We are with you lock, stock and barrel. The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2=80=9D, BIERv6, referred to= as the =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myself, McBride, Xuesong & Jing= rong collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D= , BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & Sandy to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual models accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements to support IPv6 for SRv6 support. We wanted to make sure that we had complete parity between conceptual models and relationships to the problem statement and requirements list. All authors from both solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D dotted & =E2=80=9Ct= =E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D crossed so to speak, putting our best foot forward with this rev 7. I would like to point out that given the =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D= BIERv6 Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the =E2=80=9CIndependen= t model=E2=80=9D BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017. It is only since January 2019 initial draft submission has the work to reverse engineer to come up with the Requirements draft started a =E2=80=9Cpost mortem=E2=80=9D so to speak = after the Solutions had already been proposed. To that end in IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to Section 3 conceptual framework for the two solutions proposed. We are all at a loss in understanding your comments as to removal of section 3. In order to create a requirements draft as part of any basic requirements analysis, you must have some idea or concept or inkling of a solutions framework to graft & glean the list of requirements which otherwise is not possible in my mind. If I had my druthers and we lived in a perfect world, it would have been nice to have completed the requirements draft prior to developing the solutions which now came before the egg so to speak. Please keep in mind the =E2=80=9Cwhich comes first issue here=E2=80=93 "chi= cken or the egg scenario=E2=80=9D in our case the chicken being the solution draft's, and n= ow we are working =E2=80=9Cbass-ackwards=E2=80=9D with razor focus now after the = fact back on the requirements which was missed at the get-go. The WG Charter does have verbiage that is inclusive of BIER in IPv6 and does use the word =E2=80=9Cnative=E2=80=9D even though that has caused conf= usion and we have eliminated it from the requirements draft - excerpt below. 7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood applicability. The problem statement is crystal clear that the challenge now is how and where to encode BIER header in an IPV6 environment. Plain and simple. Dear BIER WG, We the authors welcome all WG participants on the ML to help collectively define & further define the conceptual models, as well as address any deficiencies with the requirements we have put together in the draft rev-7. I would like to make it clear that none of us authors are married to any solution and we welcome all ideas and solutions. We are all striving to keep an open mind thinking outside the box, so we don=E2=80=99t box ourselves into any one solution, and are open to look at = any and all options or solutions out there. We all want to be successful in coming up with a BIER solution that supports SRv6 the =E2=80=9Cend all be all=E2=80=9D replacement for MPLS. Kind Regards, *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 11:47 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > Jingrong, > > Sorry, no, it doesn't appear that much of the direction provided by WG > members on the list, nor the WG Chairs, nor the AD was heeded at all. A > requirements document needs to provide requirements - only. This doc is > still mistakenly written as a solutions comparison marketing doc - Sectio= n > 3 does not belong in this doc. The purpose of the reqs doc is to provide = a > guide for the WG to follow in determining 1) IF a new encap is needed, an= d > if so, 2) what any proposed solution needs to address that cannot be > addressed with the available tools today. ONLY then will this doc provide > the guidance we need to evaluate 1). > > It's clear to me the current authors have little intention of following > the direction of the WG. At this time I recommend that we either: > > 1) Replace/refresh the authors with people willing to work with the BIER > WG members at large, and within the guidlines of the IETF. > > or > > 2) de-adopt this document entirely. The WG as a whole can determine if I > wishes to restart this effort. > > - Shep > (chairs) > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:48 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) < > xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote: > >> Hello Alvaro, Wg, >> Firstly thank you alvaro and the chairs for the clear directing! >> The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the >> direction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed. >> Your further comments, corrections, complaints, compliments are all >> welcome. >> >> Thanks >> Jingrong >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 10:19 PM >> To: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; >> draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org; >> draft-zhang-bier-bierin6@ietf.org; draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6@ietf.org= ; >> draft-xu-bier-encapsulation@ietf.org >> Cc: bier@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions >> >> Hello all! >> >> I am directing this message to the authors of the BIER in IPv6-related >> work. I am also copying the WG because this work needs more engagement[= *], >> making sure I don't miss anyone. >> >> [*] More engagement in the form of substantive discussions from non- >> authors, and diversity of affiliations. >> >> >> Some of you raised concerns to the IESG about the speed at which the >> IPv6-related work has been moving, and the ability to discuss it during = WG >> meetings. In response, I am providing my opinion of the current state a= nd, >> after consultation with the Chairs, reinforcing the required steps to mo= ve >> any work forward. >> >> Note that my intent is not to insert myself in the discussions, but to >> get them back on track. All decisions should be made by WG consensus as >> interpreted by the Chairs [rfc2418]. >> >> >> I have done a preliminary/high-level review of the requirements document >> (see details below); I don't think it currently is in a state to provide >> adequate material for WG discussion. Besides specific requirements, the >> text should include a clear justification for the WG to reach a consensu= s. >> The current version doesn't properly cover these aspects. >> >> The document points to the WG Charter in a couple of places as >> justification for the work. Recommendation: Focus on the technical aspe= cts >> and not whether something is in the Charter or not! If there is WG >> consensus, a Charter can be amended to include new work. On the other >> hand, while a Charter is used to provide scope and focus, it must not be >> used as justification for doing work in the absence of discussion and >> consensus. >> >> >> The critical step towards adopting a solution (or solutions) is engaged >> discussion of the requirements. After looking at the document (comments >> below), I don't think it provides a good base for analysis. >> The expectation is for the requirements to be clear, specific, >> measurable, and to justify their applicability in the solution. >> >> In consultation with the Chairs, we expect a revised requirements >> document *before* IETF 109. As I mentioned above, more engagement is >> needed in its development. Ideally, the text will be discussed on the l= ist >> as it evolves. If a live discussion is required, the Chairs will organi= ze >> one (an interim meeting, if there is enough time before IETF 109). >> >> Greg is the Chair responsible for this process. [Side note: Tony has >> decided to remove himself as co-author of one of the proposals. His >> comments will be considered as coming from a WG participant.] >> >> >> If anyone has concerns about this message, please contact me directly. >> Again, I won't participate in the WG discussions, but (if needed) may >> provide additional feedback related to my review of >> draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 (below). >> >> >> Thanks!! >> >> >> Alvaro. >> >> >> >> >> >> Review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 >> >> This is an informal review. While I expect this document to serve as a >> discussion point for the WG, and for it to *not* be published as an RFC,= I >> have strong concerns about its contents. >> >> Note that the intent of providing a review at this point is to aid in >> progressing the IPv6-related discussion. Any consensus on the specific >> requirements should come from the WG, guided by the Chairs. >> >> Consider all my comments as my personal opinion. >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D >> >> In general, the requirements listed are either too vague or not well >> justified. The objective "to help the BIER WG evaluate the BIER v6 >> requirements" cannot be met unless there is clarity that can lead to >> engaged discussion. >> >> >> The document starts by explaining the problem space (from the >> Introduction): >> >> As clarified in the working-group, "BIER natively in IPv6" means BIER >> not >> encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet. This may include native IPv6 >> encapsulation and generic IPv6 tunnelling. >> >> >> I didn't look at the archive, but I'm sure the WG can do a better job!! >> >> This description is vague (""...natively in IPv6" means BIER not >> encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet"), recursive (native "may include >> native") and confusing (native "may include native...and...tunnelling >> [sic]"). >> >> Note that the Problem Statement itself ("to transport BUM packets, with >> BIER headers, in an IPv6 environment.") is straightforward -- the >> expectation of what is required as a solution is not. >> >> >> Two conceptual solution models are presented. The description of the >> "Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering model fro= m >> rfc8279. In the best case, the terminology doesn't match; but I think t= hat >> the description might introduce new concepts. Note also that the statem= ent >> that "BIER-MPLS could use this approach directly since BIER-MPLS is base= d >> on MPLS" seems to contradict the definition of "natively in IPv6". >> >> The description of the "Native IPv6 Model" gets a slightly different >> treatment; for example, it includes benefits. Note that this model also >> mentions "a trusted IPv6-based domain" while comparing the model to SRv6= , >> *and* talking about a "wider inter-AS scope". These seem to be >> contradictions as a trusted domain is typically aligned to a single >> administrative entity [rfc8402]. Again, the terminology may not be in >> alignment...or more discussion may be needed on the scope. >> >> >> >> On to the requirements. As far as requirement levels go, I recommend >> that you use three levels instead of two: required, recommended, and >> optional. The level should be justified depending on the potential >> deployment or solution model. >> >> >> Some of the mandatory requirements listed are obvious and probably don't >> need even to be mentioned. That is the case for: >> >> 352 4.1.2. Support BIER architecture >> 361 4.1.3. Conform to existing IPv6 Spec >> 368 4.1.4. Support deployment with Non-BFR routers >> >> >> Some of the requirements are not clear -- they need a better description >> and clear justification. >> >> 345 4.1.1. L2 Agnostic >> >> 347 The solution must be agnostic to the underlying L2 data link >> type. >> 348 The solution needs to support P2P ethernet links as well as >> shared >> 349 media ethernet links without requiring the LAN switch to >> perform BIER >> 350 snooping. >> >> Agnostic to the L2 data link, but also needs to support specific >> topologies. That is a contradiction. Also, where is "BIER snooping" >> defined? >> >> >> 376 4.1.5. Support inter-AS multicast deployment >> >> 378 Inter-AS multicast support is needed for ease of provisioning >> the >> 379 P2MP transport service to enterprises. This could greatly >> increase >> 380 the scalability of BIER, as it is usually considered to be >> suitable >> 381 only for small intra-AS scenarios. >> >> rfc8279 talks about a single BIER domain. There is no discussion about >> BIER domains in the context of inter-AS operation in this draft or >> draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain. Again, in the best case, we have a >> terminology mismatch. Still, it is not clear if the text proposes new >> functionality -- and using draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain as the base >> for a mandatory requirement doesn't seem correct without WG consensus. >> >> >> 383 4.1.6. Support Simple Encapsulation >> >> 385 The solution must avoid requiring different encapsulation >> types. A >> 386 solution needs to do careful trade-off analysis and select on= e >> 387 encapsulation as its proposal for best coverage of various >> scenarios. >> >> Based on the description of "natively in IPv6", it seems like anything >> that is "not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet" should be ok. What is th= e >> justification behind one encapsulation? It sounds like this requirement >> opens the door to multiple solutions, each with different encapsulations= -- >> doesn't that contradict a mandatory requirement of one? >> >> >> Finally, we find the security requirement: >> >> 389 4.1.7. Support Deployment Security >> >> 391 The proposed solution must include careful security >> considerations, >> 392 including all that is already considered in BIER architecture >> RFC8279 >> 393 and RFC8296, and other security concerns that may raise due t= o >> the >> 394 addition of IPv6. >> >> I want to highlight the obvious nature of "must include careful security >> considerations", which is a documentation issue -- there are no specific >> security requirements on the solution itself? No particular mention of = any >> security aspect. What is the technical need? :-( >> >> >> The optional requirements don't fare much better. In general, please >> clarify and justify them. >> >> Some of the optional requirements seem to be associated with unexplained >> scenarios. For example, the support for MVPN or IPSEC...and the specifi= c >> need to forward "in hardware fast path". >> >> Others seem to make improper assumptions (for example, as far as I know, >> there is no existing standard OAM method) or suggest potential enhanceme= nts >> ("enhance the capability of BIER leveraging the BIER-MTU" >> ??). >> >> >> In summary, the list of requirements presented is not clear or adequatel= y >> justified. It is not conducive to a WG discussion about the requirement= s >> themselves...much less about potential solutions. >> > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --00000000000063392305b008b3e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    With all do respect, the authors welcome the= AD and Chairs criticism and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, there= seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had over the last severa= l months.=C2=A0 Understandably, all of us here in the WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and t= hat BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being = able to support SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data pla= ne, which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS.=C2=A0 It is critical that = the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data plane for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We all= don't want BIER to die on the vine in a technology graveyard with ATM,= Frame Relay and the likes.=C2=A0 We the authors are all in agreement and r= unning fast after that goal and understand the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft.=C2=A0 We are with you lock, stock and barrel.

    =C2=A0

    The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft= =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2=80=9D, BIERv6, referred to as the =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myse= lf, McBride, Xuesong & Jingrong =C2=A0collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions d= raft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D, BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & Sandy= to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual models accurately ad= dressed the problem statement as well as the requirements to support IPv6 for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We wanted to make sure that we had complete parity between c= onceptual models and relationships to the problem statement and requirement= s list.=C2=A0 All authors from both solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D d= otted & =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D crossed so to speak, putting our best foot forward with this rev 7.

    =C2=A0

    I would like to point out that given the =E2= =80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D BIERv6 Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the =E2=80=9CIndependen= t model=E2=80=9D BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017.=C2=A0 It is only since January 2019 initial draft submission has the work to reverse engineer to come up with the Requirements draft started a =E2=80=9C= post mortem=E2=80=9D so to speak after the Solutions had already been proposed.=C2=A0 To that en= d in IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to Section 3 conceptual framework for the two solutions proposed.=C2=A0 We are all at a loss in understanding your commen= ts as to removal of section 3.=C2=A0 In order to create a requirements draf= t as part of any basic requirements analysis, you must have some idea or co= ncept or inkling of a solutions framework to graft & glean the list of = requirements which otherwise is not possible in my mind.=C2=A0=C2=A0=


    If I had my druthers and we lived in a perfect world, it would have been nice to have completed = the requirements draft prior to developing the solutions which now came before = the egg so to speak.

    =C2=A0

    Please keep in mind the =E2=80=9Cwhich comes= first issue here=E2=80=93 "chicken or the egg scenario=E2=80=9D in our case the chicken being the solution dra= ft's, and now we are working =E2=80=9Cbass-ackwards=E2=80=9D with razor focus now after the fact= back on the requirements which was missed at the get-go.

    =C2=A0

    The WG Charter does have verbiage that is in= clusive of BIER in IPv6 and does use the word =E2=80=9Cnative=E2=80=9D even though that has= caused confusion and we have eliminated it from the requirements draft=C2=A0 - excerpt below= .

    =C2=A0

    7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be
    standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood
    applicability.

    =C2=A0

    The problem statement is crystal clear that = the challenge now is how and where to encode BIER header in an IPV6 environment.=C2=A0 Plain and simple.= =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Dear BIER WG,

    =C2=A0

    We the authors welcome all WG participants o= n the ML to help collectively define & further define the conceptual models, as well as = address any deficiencies with the requirements we have put together in the draft re= v-7.=C2=A0 I would like to make it clear that none of us authors are married to any solution and we welcome all ideas and solutions.= =C2=A0=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    We are all striving to keep an open mind thi= nking outside the box, so we don=E2=80=99t box ourselves into any one solution, and are o= pen to look at any and all options or solutions out there.

    =C2=A0

    We all want to be successful in coming up wi= th a BIER solution that supports SRv6 the =E2=80=9Cend all be all=E2=80=9D replacemen= t for MPLS. =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Kind Regards,

    =C2=A0


    Network Solution= s Architect= =C2=A0

    M 301 502-1347
    13101 Colum= bia Pike=C2=A0
    Silver Spring, MD


    On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 1= 1:47 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.= com> wrote:
    Jing= rong,

    Sorry, no, it doesn't appear that much of the = direction provided by WG members on the list, nor the WG Chairs, nor the AD= was heeded at all. A requirements document needs to provide requirements -= only. This doc is still mistakenly written as a solutions comparison marke= ting doc - Section 3 does not belong in this doc. The purpose of the reqs d= oc is to provide a guide for the WG to follow in determining 1) IF a new en= cap is needed, and if so, 2) what any proposed solution needs to address th= at cannot be addressed with the available tools today. ONLY then will this = doc provide the guidance we need to evaluate 1).

    I= t's clear to me the current authors have little intention=C2=A0of follo= wing the direction of the WG. At this time I recommend that we either:

    1) Replace/refresh the authors with people willing to = work with the BIER WG members at large, and within the guidlines of the IET= F.

    or

    2) de-adopt this do= cument entirely. The WG as a whole can determine=C2=A0if I wishes to restar= t this effort.

    - Shep
    (chairs)

    On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:48 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <= xiejingrong@hua= wei.com> wrote:
    Hello Alvaro, Wg,
    Firstly thank you alvaro and the chairs for the clear directing!
    The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the dire= ction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed.
    Your further comments, corrections, complaints, compliments are all welcome= .

    Thanks
    Jingrong

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 10:19 PM
    To: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; draft-xie-bie= r-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org; draft-zhang-bier-bierin6@ietf.org; draft= -pfister-bier-over-ipv6@ietf.org; draft-xu-bier-encapsulation@ietf.org
    Cc:     bier@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier-chairs@ietf.o= rg
    Subject: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions

    Hello all!

    I am directing this message to the authors of the BIER in IPv6-related work= .=C2=A0 I am also copying the WG because this work needs more engagement[*]= , making sure I don't miss anyone.

    =C2=A0 [*] More engagement in the form of substantive discussions from non-=
    =C2=A0 authors, and diversity of affiliations.


    Some of you raised concerns to the IESG about the speed at which the IPv6-r= elated work has been moving, and the ability to discuss it during WG meetin= gs.=C2=A0 In response, I am providing my opinion of the current state and, = after consultation with the Chairs, reinforcing the required steps to move = any work forward.

    Note that my intent is not to insert myself in the discussions, but to get = them back on track.=C2=A0 All decisions should be made by WG consensus as i= nterpreted by the Chairs [rfc2418].


    I have done a preliminary/high-level review of the requirements document (s= ee details below); I don't think it currently is in a state to provide = adequate material for WG discussion.=C2=A0 Besides specific requirements, t= he text should include a clear justification for the WG to reach a consensu= s.=C2=A0 The current version doesn't properly cover these aspects.

    The document points to the WG Charter in a couple of places as justificatio= n for the work.=C2=A0 Recommendation: Focus on the technical aspects and no= t whether something is in the Charter or not!=C2=A0 If there is WG consensu= s, a Charter can be amended to include new work.=C2=A0 On the other hand, w= hile a Charter is used to provide scope and focus, it must not be used as j= ustification for doing work in the absence of discussion and consensus.


    The critical step towards adopting a solution (or solutions) is engaged dis= cussion of the requirements.=C2=A0 After looking at the document (comments = below), I don't think it provides a good base for analysis.
    The expectation is for the requirements to be clear, specific, measurable, = and to justify their applicability in the solution.

    In consultation with the Chairs, we expect a revised requirements document = *before* IETF 109.=C2=A0 As I mentioned above, more engagement is needed in= its development.=C2=A0 Ideally, the text will be discussed on the list as = it evolves.=C2=A0 If a live discussion is required, the Chairs will organiz= e one (an interim meeting, if there is enough time before IETF 109).

    Greg is the Chair responsible for this process. =C2=A0[Side note: Tony has = decided to remove himself as co-author of one of the proposals.=C2=A0 His c= omments will be considered as coming from a WG participant.]


    If anyone has concerns about this message, please contact me directly.
    Again, I won't participate in the WG discussions, but (if needed) may p= rovide additional feedback related to my review of
    draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 (below).


    Thanks!!


    Alvaro.





    Review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06

    This is an informal review.=C2=A0 While I expect this document to serve as = a discussion point for the WG, and for it to *not* be published as an RFC, = I have strong concerns about its contents.

    Note that the intent of providing a review at this point is to aid in progr= essing the IPv6-related discussion.=C2=A0 Any consensus on the specific req= uirements should come from the WG, guided by the Chairs.

    Consider all my comments as my personal opinion.


    =3D=3D=3D

    In general, the requirements listed are either too vague or not well justif= ied.=C2=A0 The objective "to help the BIER WG evaluate the BIER v6 req= uirements" cannot be met unless there is clarity that can lead to enga= ged discussion.


    The document starts by explaining the problem space (from the Introduction)= :

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0As clarified in the working-group, "BIER natively in IPv6= " means BIER not
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet.=C2=A0 This may include nativ= e IPv6
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation and generic IPv6 tunnelling.


    I didn't look at the archive, but I'm sure the WG can do a better j= ob!!

    This description is vague (""...natively in IPv6" means BIER= not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet"), recursive (native "may i= nclude
    native") and confusing (native "may include native...and...tunnel= ling [sic]").

    Note that the Problem Statement itself ("to transport BUM packets, wit= h BIER headers, in an IPv6 environment.") is straightforward -- the ex= pectation of what is required as a solution is not.


    Two conceptual solution models are presented.=C2=A0 The description of the = "Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering mo= del from rfc8279.=C2=A0 In the best case, the terminology doesn't match= ; but I think that the description might introduce new concepts.=C2=A0 Note= also that the statement that "BIER-MPLS could use this approach direc= tly since BIER-MPLS is based on MPLS" seems to contradict the definiti= on of "natively in IPv6".

    The description of the "Native IPv6 Model" gets a slightly differ= ent treatment; for example, it includes benefits.=C2=A0 Note that this mode= l also mentions "a trusted IPv6-based domain" while comparing the= model to SRv6, *and* talking about a "wider inter-AS scope".=C2= =A0 These seem to be contradictions as a trusted domain is typically aligne= d to a single administrative entity [rfc8402].=C2=A0 Again, the terminology= may not be in alignment...or more discussion may be needed on the scope.


    On to the requirements.=C2=A0 As far as requirement levels go, I recommend = that you use three levels instead of two: required, recommended, and option= al.=C2=A0 The level should be justified depending on the potential deployme= nt or solution model.


    Some of the mandatory requirements listed are obvious and probably don'= t need even to be mentioned.=C2=A0 That is the case for:

    352=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.2.=C2=A0 Support BIER architecture
    361=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.3.=C2=A0 Conform to existing IPv6 Spec
    368=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.4.=C2=A0 Support deployment with Non-BFR routers=


    Some of the requirements are not clear -- they need a better description an= d clear justification.

    345=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.1.=C2=A0 L2 Agnostic

    347=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution must be agnostic to the underly= ing L2 data link type.
    348=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution needs to support P2P ethernet l= inks as well as shared
    349=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 media ethernet links without requiring the L= AN switch to perform BIER
    350=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 snooping.

    Agnostic to the L2 data link, but also needs to support specific topologies= .=C2=A0 That is a contradiction.=C2=A0 Also, where is "BIER snooping&q= uot;
    defined?


    376=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.5.=C2=A0 Support inter-AS multicast deployment
    378=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Inter-AS multicast support is needed for eas= e of provisioning the
    379=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 P2MP transport service to enterprises.=C2=A0= This could greatly increase
    380=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the scalability of BIER, as it is usually co= nsidered to be suitable
    381=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 only for small intra-AS scenarios.

    rfc8279 talks about a single BIER domain.=C2=A0 There is no discussion abou= t BIER domains in the context of inter-AS operation in this draft or draft-= geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain.=C2=A0 Again, in the best case, we have a termi= nology mismatch. Still, it is not clear if the text proposes new functional= ity -- and using draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain as the base for a mandat= ory requirement doesn't seem correct without WG consensus.


    383=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.6.=C2=A0 Support Simple Encapsulation

    385=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution must avoid requiring different = encapsulation types. =C2=A0A
    386=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solution needs to do careful trade-off analy= sis and select one
    387=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encapsulation as its proposal for best cover= age of various scenarios.

    Based on the description of "natively in IPv6", it seems like any= thing that is "not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet" should be ok= .=C2=A0 What is the justification behind one encapsulation?=C2=A0 It sounds= like this requirement opens the door to multiple solutions, each with diff= erent encapsulations -- doesn't that contradict a mandatory requirement= of one?


    Finally, we find the security requirement:

    389=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.7.=C2=A0 Support Deployment Security

    391=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The proposed solution must include careful s= ecurity considerations,
    392=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 including all that is already considered in = BIER architecture RFC8279
    393=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and RFC8296, and other security concerns tha= t may raise due to the
    394=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 addition of IPv6.

    I want to highlight the obvious nature of "must include careful securi= ty considerations", which is a documentation issue -- there are no spe= cific security requirements on the solution itself?=C2=A0 No particular men= tion of any security aspect.=C2=A0 What is the technical need? =C2=A0:-(

    The optional requirements don't fare much better.=C2=A0 In general, ple= ase clarify and justify them.

    Some of the optional requirements seem to be associated with unexplained sc= enarios.=C2=A0 For example, the support for MVPN or IPSEC...and the specifi= c need to forward "in hardware fast path".

    Others seem to make improper assumptions (for example, as far as I know, th= ere is no existing standard OAM method) or suggest potential enhancements (= "enhance the capability of BIER leveraging the BIER-MTU"
    =C2=A0??).


    In summary, the list of requirements presented is not clear or adequately j= ustified.=C2=A0 It is not conducive to a WG discussion about the requiremen= ts themselves...much less about potential solutions.
    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


    --

    Gyan Mishra

    Network Solutions A= rchitect=C2= =A0

    M 301 502-1347
    13101 Columbia= Pike=C2=A0
    Silver Spring, MD


    <= /div>
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Thu, 24 Sep 2020 09:44:52 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: Gyan Mishra , Greg Shepherd CC: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions Thread-Index: AQHWbMWsY71Ws742cUexncENX5CHjqlt8uQAgADZgoCACMRDgIAAQt8A Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 09:44:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.5.0.60 dlp-reaction: no-action msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-09-24T09:44:49Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; 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boundary="_004_MN2PR05MB59817A65F5F444241A1A9A54D4390MN2PR05MB5981namp_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR05MB5981.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5d1a5f93-3233-4902-539e-08d8606e7cac X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Sep 2020 09:44:52.6253 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: J4mX8qsKbrwi/UIGixFBOrsuGcE3v8K88ifeH4DYUqoa4W1JerDe6yvkG2KL4FsfM5IVbIMfyDJPLXjGK+voRg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB6528 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-09-24_05:2020-09-24, 2020-09-24 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009240075 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 09:45:11 -0000 --_004_MN2PR05MB59817A65F5F444241A1A9A54D4390MN2PR05MB5981namp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR05MB59817A65F5F444241A1A9A54D4390MN2PR05MB5981namp_" --_000_MN2PR05MB59817A65F5F444241A1A9A54D4390MN2PR05MB5981namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gyan, A small clarification - while the requirements draft -07 currently does hav= e sections that briefly describe different models/solutions, we have avoide= d discussing which one satisfies which requirements intentionally (as the f= ocus is on listing requirements). With that, I don't think we've got a conclusion that "BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethe= rnet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to support SRv6 Serv= ice Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane". Jeffrey Juniper Business Use Only From: Gyan Mishra Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM To: Greg Shepherd Cc: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-r= equirements@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions [External Email. Be cautious of content] Greg With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism and an= y feedback, however in this particular case with your response, there seems= to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had over the last sever= al months. Understandably, all of us here in the WG realize the criticalit= y of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, a= s it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to support SRv6 Service Pro= vider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, which will be the end a= ll be all replacement for MPLS. It is critical that the BIER WG come up wi= th a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data plane for SRv6 support. We all= don't want BIER to die on the vine in a technology graveyard with ATM, Fra= me Relay and the likes. We the authors are all in agreement and running fa= st after that goal and understand the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requi= rements draft. We are with you lock, stock and barrel. The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft "draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsula= tion-08", BIERv6, referred to as the "Integrated model", authors myself, Mc= Bride, Xuesong & Jingrong collaborated in a joint effort over a month time= frame with the authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft "draft-zhang-bier-b= ierin6-07", BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey= & Sandy to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual models a= ccurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements to su= pport IPv6 for SRv6 support. We wanted to make sure that we had complete p= arity between conceptual models and relationships to the problem statement = and requirements list. All authors from both solutions worked together to = ensure we had all of our "i's" dotted & "t's" crossed so to speak, putting = our best foot forward with this rev 7. I would like to point out that given the "Integrated model" BIERv6 Solution= s initial draft came out in April 2018, and the "Independent model" BIERin6= Solution came out in October 2017. It is only since January 2019 initial = draft submission has the work to reverse engineer to come up with the Requi= rements draft started a "post mortem" so to speak after the Solutions had a= lready been proposed. To that end in IETF108, the requirements draft had p= ositive feedback related to Section 3 conceptual framework for the two solu= tions proposed. We are all at a loss in understanding your comments as to = removal of section 3. In order to create a requirements draft as part of a= ny basic requirements analysis, you must have some idea or concept or inkli= ng of a solutions framework to graft & glean the list of requirements which= otherwise is not possible in my mind. If I had my druthers and we lived in a perfect world, it would have been ni= ce to have completed the requirements draft prior to developing the solutio= ns which now came before the egg so to speak. Please keep in mind the "which comes first issue here- "chicken or the egg = scenario" in our case the chicken being the solution draft's, and now we ar= e working "bass-ackwards" with razor focus now after the fact back on the r= equirements which was missed at the get-go. The WG Charter does have verbiage that is inclusive of BIER in IPv6 and doe= s use the word "native" even though that has caused confusion and we have e= liminated it from the requirements draft - excerpt below. 7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood applicability. The problem statement is crystal clear that the challenge now is how and wh= ere to encode BIER header in an IPV6 environment. Plain and simple. Dear BIER WG, We the authors welcome all WG participants on the ML to help collectively d= efine & further define the conceptual models, as well as address any defici= encies with the requirements we have put together in the draft rev-7. I wo= uld like to make it clear that none of us authors are married to any soluti= on and we welcome all ideas and solutions. We are all striving to keep an open mind thinking outside the box, so we do= n't box ourselves into any one solution, and are open to look at any and al= l options or solutions out there. We all want to be successful in coming up with a BIER solution that support= s SRv6 the "end all be all" replacement for MPLS. Kind Regards, [Image removed by sender.] Gyan Mishra Network Solutions Architect M 301 502-1347 13101 Columbia Pike Silver Spring, MD On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 11:47 AM Greg Shepherd > wrote: Jingrong, Sorry, no, it doesn't appear that much of the direction provided by WG memb= ers on the list, nor the WG Chairs, nor the AD was heeded at all. A require= ments document needs to provide requirements - only. This doc is still mist= akenly written as a solutions comparison marketing doc - Section 3 does not= belong in this doc. The purpose of the reqs doc is to provide a guide for = the WG to follow in determining 1) IF a new encap is needed, and if so, 2) = what any proposed solution needs to address that cannot be addressed with t= he available tools today. ONLY then will this doc provide the guidance we n= eed to evaluate 1). It's clear to me the current authors have little intention of following the= direction of the WG. At this time I recommend that we either: 1) Replace/refresh the authors with people willing to work with the BIER WG= members at large, and within the guidlines of the IETF. or 2) de-adopt this document entirely. The WG as a whole can determine if I wi= shes to restart this effort. - Shep (chairs) On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:48 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) > wrote: Hello Alvaro, Wg, Firstly thank you alvaro and the chairs for the clear directing! The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the dire= ction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed. Your further comments, corrections, complaints, compliments are all welcome= . Thanks Jingrong -----Original Message----- From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 10:19 PM To: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org; draft-zhang-bier-bierin6@ietf.o= rg; draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6@= ietf.org; draft-xu-bier-encap= sulation@ietf.org Cc: bier@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org Subject: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions Hello all! I am directing this message to the authors of the BIER in IPv6-related work= . I am also copying the WG because this work needs more engagement[*], mak= ing sure I don't miss anyone. [*] More engagement in the form of substantive discussions from non- authors, and diversity of affiliations. Some of you raised concerns to the IESG about the speed at which the IPv6-r= elated work has been moving, and the ability to discuss it during WG meetin= gs. In response, I am providing my opinion of the current state and, after= consultation with the Chairs, reinforcing the required steps to move any w= ork forward. Note that my intent is not to insert myself in the discussions, but to get = them back on track. All decisions should be made by WG consensus as interp= reted by the Chairs [rfc2418]. I have done a preliminary/high-level review of the requirements document (s= ee details below); I don't think it currently is in a state to provide adeq= uate material for WG discussion. Besides specific requirements, the text s= hould include a clear justification for the WG to reach a consensus. The c= urrent version doesn't properly cover these aspects. The document points to the WG Charter in a couple of places as justificatio= n for the work. Recommendation: Focus on the technical aspects and not whe= ther something is in the Charter or not! If there is WG consensus, a Chart= er can be amended to include new work. On the other hand, while a Charter = is used to provide scope and focus, it must not be used as justification fo= r doing work in the absence of discussion and consensus. The critical step towards adopting a solution (or solutions) is engaged dis= cussion of the requirements. After looking at the document (comments below= ), I don't think it provides a good base for analysis. The expectation is for the requirements to be clear, specific, measurable, = and to justify their applicability in the solution. In consultation with the Chairs, we expect a revised requirements document = *before* IETF 109. As I mentioned above, more engagement is needed in its = development. Ideally, the text will be discussed on the list as it evolves= . If a live discussion is required, the Chairs will organize one (an inter= im meeting, if there is enough time before IETF 109). Greg is the Chair responsible for this process. [Side note: Tony has decid= ed to remove himself as co-author of one of the proposals. His comments wi= ll be considered as coming from a WG participant.] If anyone has concerns about this message, please contact me directly. Again, I won't participate in the WG discussions, but (if needed) may provi= de additional feedback related to my review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 (below). Thanks!! Alvaro. Review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 This is an informal review. While I expect this document to serve as a dis= cussion point for the WG, and for it to *not* be published as an RFC, I hav= e strong concerns about its contents. Note that the intent of providing a review at this point is to aid in progr= essing the IPv6-related discussion. Any consensus on the specific requirem= ents should come from the WG, guided by the Chairs. Consider all my comments as my personal opinion. =3D=3D=3D In general, the requirements listed are either too vague or not well justif= ied. The objective "to help the BIER WG evaluate the BIER v6 requirements"= cannot be met unless there is clarity that can lead to engaged discussion. The document starts by explaining the problem space (from the Introduction)= : As clarified in the working-group, "BIER natively in IPv6" means BIER no= t encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet. This may include native IPv6 encapsulation and generic IPv6 tunnelling. I didn't look at the archive, but I'm sure the WG can do a better job!! This description is vague (""...natively in IPv6" means BIER not encapsulat= ed in MPLS or Ethernet"), recursive (native "may include native") and confusing (native "may include native...and...tunnelling [sic]= "). Note that the Problem Statement itself ("to transport BUM packets, with BIE= R headers, in an IPv6 environment.") is straightforward -- the expectation = of what is required as a solution is not. Two conceptual solution models are presented. The description of the "Tran= sport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering model from rfc827= 9. In the best case, the terminology doesn't match; but I think that the d= escription might introduce new concepts. Note also that the statement that= "BIER-MPLS could use this approach directly since BIER-MPLS is based on MP= LS" seems to contradict the definition of "natively in IPv6". The description of the "Native IPv6 Model" gets a slightly different treatm= ent; for example, it includes benefits. Note that this model also mentions= "a trusted IPv6-based domain" while comparing the model to SRv6, *and* tal= king about a "wider inter-AS scope". These seem to be contradictions as a = trusted domain is typically aligned to a single administrative entity [rfc8= 402]. Again, the terminology may not be in alignment...or more discussion = may be needed on the scope. On to the requirements. As far as requirement levels go, I recommend that = you use three levels instead of two: required, recommended, and optional. = The level should be justified depending on the potential deployment or solu= tion model. Some of the mandatory requirements listed are obvious and probably don't ne= ed even to be mentioned. That is the case for: 352 4.1.2. Support BIER architecture 361 4.1.3. Conform to existing IPv6 Spec 368 4.1.4. Support deployment with Non-BFR routers Some of the requirements are not clear -- they need a better description an= d clear justification. 345 4.1.1. L2 Agnostic 347 The solution must be agnostic to the underlying L2 data link typ= e. 348 The solution needs to support P2P ethernet links as well as shar= ed 349 media ethernet links without requiring the LAN switch to perform= BIER 350 snooping. Agnostic to the L2 data link, but also needs to support specific topologies= . That is a contradiction. Also, where is "BIER snooping" defined? 376 4.1.5. Support inter-AS multicast deployment 378 Inter-AS multicast support is needed for ease of provisioning th= e 379 P2MP transport service to enterprises. This could greatly incre= ase 380 the scalability of BIER, as it is usually considered to be suita= ble 381 only for small intra-AS scenarios. rfc8279 talks about a single BIER domain. There is no discussion about BIE= R domains in the context of inter-AS operation in this draft or draft-geng-= bier-ipv6-inter-domain. Again, in the best case, we have a terminology mis= match. Still, it is not clear if the text proposes new functionality -- and= using draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain as the base for a mandatory requir= ement doesn't seem correct without WG consensus. 383 4.1.6. Support Simple Encapsulation 385 The solution must avoid requiring different encapsulation types.= A 386 solution needs to do careful trade-off analysis and select one 387 encapsulation as its proposal for best coverage of various scena= rios. Based on the description of "natively in IPv6", it seems like anything that= is "not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet" should be ok. What is the justi= fication behind one encapsulation? It sounds like this requirement opens t= he door to multiple solutions, each with different encapsulations -- doesn'= t that contradict a mandatory requirement of one? Finally, we find the security requirement: 389 4.1.7. Support Deployment Security 391 The proposed solution must include careful security consideratio= ns, 392 including all that is already considered in BIER architecture RF= C8279 393 and RFC8296, and other security concerns that may raise due to t= he 394 addition of IPv6. I want to highlight the obvious nature of "must include careful security co= nsiderations", which is a documentation issue -- there are no specific secu= rity requirements on the solution itself? No particular mention of any sec= urity aspect. What is the technical need? :-( The optional requirements don't fare much better. In general, please clari= fy and justify them. Some of the optional requirements seem to be associated with unexplained sc= enarios. For example, the support for MVPN or IPSEC...and the specific nee= d to forward "in hardware fast path". Others seem to make improper assumptions (for example, as far as I know, th= ere is no existing standard OAM method) or suggest potential enhancements (= "enhance the capability of BIER leveraging the BIER-MTU" ??). In summary, the list of requirements presented is not clear or adequately j= ustified. It is not conducive to a WG discussion about the requirements th= emselves...much less about potential solutions. _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- [Image removed by sender.] Gyan Mishra Network Solutions Architect M 301 502-1347 13101 Columbia Pike Silver Spring, MD --_000_MN2PR05MB59817A65F5F444241A1A9A54D4390MN2PR05MB5981namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Gyan,

     

    A small clarification – while the requirements= draft -07 currently does have sections that briefly describe different mod= els/solutions, we have avoided discussing which one satisfies which require= ments intentionally (as the focus is on listing requirements).

     

    With that, I don’t think we’ve got a con= clusion that “BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a= MAJOR gap in being able to support SRv6 Service Provider core technology r= equiring an IPv6 data plane”.

     

    Jeffrey

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com&g= t;
    Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM
    To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
    Cc: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; draft-iet= f-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Alv= aro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions<= /p>

     

    <= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo= r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]

     

    Greg

     

    With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism = and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, there= seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had over the last several months.  Understandably, all of us = here in the WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, = and that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap = in being able to support SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, which will be the end all be= all replacement for MPLS.  It is critical that the BIER WG come up wi= th a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data plane for SRv6 support.  W= e all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a technology graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes.  We the a= uthors are all in agreement and running fast after that goal and understand= the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft.  We are w= ith you lock, stock and barrel.

     

    The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft “draft-xie-bier-ip= v6-encapsulation-08”, BIERv6, referred to as the “Integrated mo= del”, authors myself, McBride, Xuesong & Jingrong  collabora= ted in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors of the BIER IPv6= Solutions draft “draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07”, BIERin6, referr= ed to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & Sandy to come up wit= h a holistic solution where both conceptual models accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements to = support IPv6 for SRv6 support.  We wanted to make sure that we had com= plete parity between conceptual models and relationships to the problem sta= tement and requirements list.  All authors from both solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our “i&#= 8217;s” dotted & “t’s” crossed so to speak, put= ting our best foot forward with this rev 7.

     

    I would like to point out that given the “Integrated model̶= 1; BIERv6 Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the “In= dependent model” BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017.  It is only since January 2019 initial draft submission has the work to revers= e engineer to come up with the Requirements draft started a “post mor= tem” so to speak after the Solutions had already been proposed. = To that end in IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to Section 3 conceptual framework for the two so= lutions proposed.  We are all at a loss in understanding your comments= as to removal of section 3.  In order to create a requirements draft = as part of any basic requirements analysis, you must have some idea or concept or inkling of a solutions framework to = graft & glean the list of requirements which otherwise is not possible = in my mind.  

     

    If I had my druthers and we lived in a perfect world, it would have b= een nice to have completed the requirements draft prior to developing the s= olutions which now came before the egg so to speak.

     

    Please keep in mind the “which comes first issue here– &q= uot;chicken or the egg scenario” in our case the chicken being the so= lution draft's, and now we are working “bass-ackwards” with raz= or focus now after the fact back on the requirements which was missed at the get-go= .

     

    The WG Charter does have verbiage that is inclusive of BIER in IPv6 a= nd does use the word “native” even though that has caused confu= sion and we have eliminated it from the requirements draft  - excerpt below.

     

    7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively i= n IPv6 may be
    standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood
    applicability.

     

    The problem statement is crystal clear that the challenge now is how = and where to encode BIER header in an IPV6 environment.  Plain and sim= ple.  

     

    Dear BIER WG,

     

    We the authors welcome all WG participants on the ML to help collecti= vely define & further define the conceptual models, as well as address = any deficiencies with the requirements we have put together in the draft rev-7.  I would like to make it clear that none= of us authors are married to any solution and we welcome all ideas and sol= utions.   

     

    We are all striving to keep an open mind thinking outside the box, so= we don’t box ourselves into any one solution, and are open to look a= t any and all options or solutions out there.

     

    We all want to be successful in coming up with a BIER solution that s= upports SRv6 the “end all be all” replacement for MPLS.  <= /span>

     

    Kind Regards,

     

    3D"Image=

    Gyan Mishra=

    Network Solutions Architect&nb= sp;

    M 301 502-1347
    13101 Columbia Pike 
    Silver Spring, MD<= /p>

     

    On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 11:47 AM Greg Shepherd <<= a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com">gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:

    Jingrong,

     

    Sorry, no, it doesn't appear that much of the direct= ion provided by WG members on the list, nor the WG Chairs, nor the AD was h= eeded at all. A requirements document needs to provide requirements - only.= This doc is still mistakenly written as a solutions comparison marketing doc - Section 3 does not belong in thi= s doc. The purpose of the reqs doc is to provide a guide for the WG to foll= ow in determining 1) IF a new encap is needed, and if so, 2) what any propo= sed solution needs to address that cannot be addressed with the available tools today. ONLY then will this do= c provide the guidance we need to evaluate 1).

     

    It's clear to me the current authors have little int= ention of following the direction of the WG. At this time I recommend = that we either:

     

    1) Replace/refresh the authors with people willing t= o work with the BIER WG members at large, and within the guidlines of the I= ETF.

     

    or

     

    2) de-adopt this document entirely. The WG as a whol= e can determine if I wishes to restart this effort.

     

    - Shep

    (chairs)

     

    On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:48 PM Xiejingrong (Jingron= g) <xiejingr= ong@huawei.com> wrote:

    Hello Alvaro, Wg,
    Firstly thank you alvaro and the chairs for the clear directing!
    The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the dire= ction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed.
    Your further comments, corrections, complaints, compliments are all welcome= .

    Thanks
    Jingrong

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 10:19 PM
    To: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org; draf= t-zhang-bier-bierin6@ietf.org; = draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6@ietf.org; d= raft-xu-bier-encapsulation@ietf.org
    Cc: bier@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"> bier-chairs@ietf.org
    Subject: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions

    Hello all!

    I am directing this message to the authors of the BIER in IPv6-related work= .  I am also copying the WG because this work needs more engagement[*]= , making sure I don't miss anyone.

      [*] More engagement in the form of substantive discussions from non-=
      authors, and diversity of affiliations.


    Some of you raised concerns to the IESG about the speed at which the IPv6-r= elated work has been moving, and the ability to discuss it during WG meetin= gs.  In response, I am providing my opinion of the current state and, = after consultation with the Chairs, reinforcing the required steps to move any work forward.

    Note that my intent is not to insert myself in the discussions, but to get = them back on track.  All decisions should be made by WG consensus as i= nterpreted by the Chairs [rfc2418].


    I have done a preliminary/high-level review of the requirements document (s= ee details below); I don't think it currently is in a state to provide adeq= uate material for WG discussion.  Besides specific requirements, the t= ext should include a clear justification for the WG to reach a consensus.  The current version doesn't properl= y cover these aspects.

    The document points to the WG Charter in a couple of places as justificatio= n for the work.  Recommendation: Focus on the technical aspects and no= t whether something is in the Charter or not!  If there is WG consensu= s, a Charter can be amended to include new work.  On the other hand, while a Charter is used to provide scope an= d focus, it must not be used as justification for doing work in the absence= of discussion and consensus.


    The critical step towards adopting a solution (or solutions) is engaged dis= cussion of the requirements.  After looking at the document (comments = below), I don't think it provides a good base for analysis.
    The expectation is for the requirements to be clear, specific, measurable, = and to justify their applicability in the solution.

    In consultation with the Chairs, we expect a revised requirements document = *before* IETF 109.  As I mentioned above, more engagement is needed in= its development.  Ideally, the text will be discussed on the list as = it evolves.  If a live discussion is required, the Chairs will organize one (an interim meeting, if there is enough time = before IETF 109).

    Greg is the Chair responsible for this process.  [Side note: Tony has = decided to remove himself as co-author of one of the proposals.  His c= omments will be considered as coming from a WG participant.]


    If anyone has concerns about this message, please contact me directly.
    Again, I won't participate in the WG discussions, but (if needed) may provi= de additional feedback related to my review of
    draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 (below).


    Thanks!!


    Alvaro.





    Review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06

    This is an informal review.  While I expect this document to serve as = a discussion point for the WG, and for it to *not* be published as an RFC, = I have strong concerns about its contents.

    Note that the intent of providing a review at this point is to aid in progr= essing the IPv6-related discussion.  Any consensus on the specific req= uirements should come from the WG, guided by the Chairs.

    Consider all my comments as my personal opinion.


    =3D=3D=3D

    In general, the requirements listed are either too vague or not well justif= ied.  The objective "to help the BIER WG evaluate the BIER v6 req= uirements" cannot be met unless there is clarity that can lead to enga= ged discussion.


    The document starts by explaining the problem space (from the Introduction)= :

       As clarified in the working-group, "BIER natively in IPv6= " means BIER not
       encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet.  This may include nativ= e IPv6
       encapsulation and generic IPv6 tunnelling.


    I didn't look at the archive, but I'm sure the WG can do a better job!!

    This description is vague (""...natively in IPv6" means BIER= not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet"), recursive (native "may i= nclude
    native") and confusing (native "may include native...and...tunnel= ling [sic]").

    Note that the Problem Statement itself ("to transport BUM packets, wit= h BIER headers, in an IPv6 environment.") is straightforward -- the ex= pectation of what is required as a solution is not.


    Two conceptual solution models are presented.  The description of the = "Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering mo= del from rfc8279.  In the best case, the terminology doesn't match; bu= t I think that the description might introduce new concepts.  Note also that the statement that "BIER-MPLS could use this approach = directly since BIER-MPLS is based on MPLS" seems to contradict the def= inition of "natively in IPv6".

    The description of the "Native IPv6 Model" gets a slightly differ= ent treatment; for example, it includes benefits.  Note that this mode= l also mentions "a trusted IPv6-based domain" while comparing the= model to SRv6, *and* talking about a "wider inter-AS scope".&nbs= p; These seem to be contradictions as a trusted domain is typically aligned t= o a single administrative entity [rfc8402].  Again, the terminology ma= y not be in alignment...or more discussion may be needed on the scope.



    On to the requirements.  As far as requirement levels go, I recommend = that you use three levels instead of two: required, recommended, and option= al.  The level should be justified depending on the potential deployme= nt or solution model.


    Some of the mandatory requirements listed are obvious and probably don't ne= ed even to be mentioned.  That is the case for:

    352     4.1.2.  Support BIER architecture
    361     4.1.3.  Conform to existing IPv6 Spec
    368     4.1.4.  Support deployment with Non-BFR routers=


    Some of the requirements are not clear -- they need a better description an= d clear justification.

    345     4.1.1.  L2 Agnostic

    347        The solution must be agnostic to the underly= ing L2 data link type.
    348        The solution needs to support P2P ethernet l= inks as well as shared
    349        media ethernet links without requiring the L= AN switch to perform BIER
    350        snooping.

    Agnostic to the L2 data link, but also needs to support specific topologies= .  That is a contradiction.  Also, where is "BIER snooping&q= uot;
    defined?


    376     4.1.5.  Support inter-AS multicast deployment
    378        Inter-AS multicast support is needed for eas= e of provisioning the
    379        P2MP transport service to enterprises. = This could greatly increase
    380        the scalability of BIER, as it is usually co= nsidered to be suitable
    381        only for small intra-AS scenarios.

    rfc8279 talks about a single BIER domain.  There is no discussion abou= t BIER domains in the context of inter-AS operation in this draft or draft-= geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain.  Again, in the best case, we have a termi= nology mismatch. Still, it is not clear if the text proposes new functionality -- and using draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inte= r-domain as the base for a mandatory requirement doesn't seem correct witho= ut WG consensus.


    383     4.1.6.  Support Simple Encapsulation

    385        The solution must avoid requiring different = encapsulation types.  A
    386        solution needs to do careful trade-off analy= sis and select one
    387        encapsulation as its proposal for best cover= age of various scenarios.

    Based on the description of "natively in IPv6", it seems like any= thing that is "not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet" should be ok= .  What is the justification behind one encapsulation?  It sounds= like this requirement opens the door to multiple solutions, each with different encapsulations -- doesn't that contradict a mandatory requi= rement of one?


    Finally, we find the security requirement:

    389     4.1.7.  Support Deployment Security

    391        The proposed solution must include careful s= ecurity considerations,
    392        including all that is already considered in = BIER architecture RFC8279
    393        and RFC8296, and other security concerns tha= t may raise due to the
    394        addition of IPv6.

    I want to highlight the obvious nature of "must include careful securi= ty considerations", which is a documentation issue -- there are no spe= cific security requirements on the solution itself?  No particular men= tion of any security aspect.  What is the technical need?  :-(


    The optional requirements don't fare much better.  In general, please = clarify and justify them.

    Some of the optional requirements seem to be associated with unexplained sc= enarios.  For example, the support for MVPN or IPSEC...and the specifi= c need to forward "in hardware fast path".

    Others seem to make improper assumptions (for example, as far as I know, th= ere is no existing standard OAM method) or suggest potential enhancements (= "enhance the capability of BIER leveraging the BIER-MTU"
     ??).


    In summary, the list of requirements presented is not clear or adequately j= ustified.  It is not conducive to a WG discussion about the requiremen= ts themselves...much less about potential solutions.

    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= /a>


     

    --

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Thu, 24 Sep 2020 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 07:44:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Cc: Gyan Mishra , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0000000000001726d605b01046cf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 14:47:11 -0000 --0000000000001726d605b01046cf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001726d105b01046ce" --0000000000001726d105b01046ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The authors were ask to remove the comparison section. I'm asking you again. I'll wait for the next rev to comment. Thanks, Greg On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:44 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > Hi Gyan, > > > > A small clarification =E2=80=93 while the requirements draft -07 currentl= y does > have sections that briefly describe different models/solutions, we have > avoided discussing which one satisfies which requirements intentionally (= as > the focus is on listing requirements). > > > > With that, I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ve got a conclusion that =E2= =80=9CBIER-MPLS & > BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to suppor= t > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane=E2=80= =9D. > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Gyan Mishra > *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM > *To:* Greg Shepherd > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; > draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org; > bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions > > > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > > > Greg > > > > With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism and > any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, there > seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had over the las= t > several months. Understandably, all of us here in the WG realize the > criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and that BIER-MPLS & > BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to suppor= t > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, which > will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS. It is critical that the > BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data plane for > SRv6 support. We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a technology > graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes. We the authors are all in > agreement and running fast after that goal and understand the AD & Chairs > now emphasis on the requirements draft. We are with you lock, stock and > barrel. > > > > The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft > =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2=80=9D, BIERv6, referred = to as the > =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myself, McBride, Xuesong & Ji= ngrong > collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors o= f > the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80= =9D, BIERin6, > referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & Sandy to come up > with a holistic solution where both conceptual models accurately addresse= d > the problem statement as well as the requirements to support IPv6 for SRv= 6 > support. We wanted to make sure that we had complete parity between > conceptual models and relationships to the problem statement and > requirements list. All authors from both solutions worked together to > ensure we had all of our =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D dotted & =E2=80=9C= t=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D crossed so to speak, putting > our best foot forward with this rev 7. > > > > I would like to point out that given the =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80= =9D BIERv6 > Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the =E2=80=9CIndepend= ent model=E2=80=9D > BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017. It is only since January 2019 > initial draft submission has the work to reverse engineer to come up with > the Requirements draft started a =E2=80=9Cpost mortem=E2=80=9D so to spea= k after the > Solutions had already been proposed. To that end in IETF108, the > requirements draft had positive feedback related to Section 3 conceptual > framework for the two solutions proposed. We are all at a loss in > understanding your comments as to removal of section 3. In order to crea= te > a requirements draft as part of any basic requirements analysis, you must > have some idea or concept or inkling of a solutions framework to graft & > glean the list of requirements which otherwise is not possible in my mind= . > > > > If I had my druthers and we lived in a perfect world, it would have been > nice to have completed the requirements draft prior to developing the > solutions which now came before the egg so to speak. > > > > Please keep in mind the =E2=80=9Cwhich comes first issue here=E2=80=93 "c= hicken or the egg > scenario=E2=80=9D in our case the chicken being the solution draft's, and= now we > are working =E2=80=9Cbass-ackwards=E2=80=9D with razor focus now after th= e fact back on the > requirements which was missed at the get-go. > > > > The WG Charter does have verbiage that is inclusive of BIER in IPv6 and > does use the word =E2=80=9Cnative=E2=80=9D even though that has caused co= nfusion and we > have eliminated it from the requirements draft - excerpt below. > > > > 7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be > standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood > applicability. > > > > The problem statement is crystal clear that the challenge now is how and > where to encode BIER header in an IPV6 environment. Plain and simple. > > > > Dear BIER WG, > > > > We the authors welcome all WG participants on the ML to help collectively > define & further define the conceptual models, as well as address any > deficiencies with the requirements we have put together in the draft > rev-7. I would like to make it clear that none of us authors are married > to any solution and we welcome all ideas and solutions. > > > > We are all striving to keep an open mind thinking outside the box, so we > don=E2=80=99t box ourselves into any one solution, and are open to look a= t any and > all options or solutions out there. > > > > We all want to be successful in coming up with a BIER solution that > supports SRv6 the =E2=80=9Cend all be all=E2=80=9D replacement for MPLS. > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions Architect * > > > > *M 301 502-1347 13101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 11:47 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > > Jingrong, > > > > Sorry, no, it doesn't appear that much of the direction provided by WG > members on the list, nor the WG Chairs, nor the AD was heeded at all. A > requirements document needs to provide requirements - only. This doc is > still mistakenly written as a solutions comparison marketing doc - Sectio= n > 3 does not belong in this doc. The purpose of the reqs doc is to provide = a > guide for the WG to follow in determining 1) IF a new encap is needed, an= d > if so, 2) what any proposed solution needs to address that cannot be > addressed with the available tools today. ONLY then will this doc provide > the guidance we need to evaluate 1). > > > > It's clear to me the current authors have little intention of following > the direction of the WG. At this time I recommend that we either: > > > > 1) Replace/refresh the authors with people willing to work with the BIER > WG members at large, and within the guidlines of the IETF. > > > > or > > > > 2) de-adopt this document entirely. The WG as a whole can determine if I > wishes to restart this effort. > > > > - Shep > > (chairs) > > > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:48 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) < > xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote: > > Hello Alvaro, Wg, > Firstly thank you alvaro and the chairs for the clear directing! > The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the > direction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed. > Your further comments, corrections, complaints, compliments are all > welcome. > > Thanks > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 10:19 PM > To: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org; > draft-zhang-bier-bierin6@ietf.org; draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6@ietf.org; > draft-xu-bier-encapsulation@ietf.org > Cc: bier@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions > > Hello all! > > I am directing this message to the authors of the BIER in IPv6-related > work. I am also copying the WG because this work needs more engagement[*= ], > making sure I don't miss anyone. > > [*] More engagement in the form of substantive discussions from non- > authors, and diversity of affiliations. > > > Some of you raised concerns to the IESG about the speed at which the > IPv6-related work has been moving, and the ability to discuss it during W= G > meetings. In response, I am providing my opinion of the current state an= d, > after consultation with the Chairs, reinforcing the required steps to mov= e > any work forward. > > Note that my intent is not to insert myself in the discussions, but to ge= t > them back on track. All decisions should be made by WG consensus as > interpreted by the Chairs [rfc2418]. > > > I have done a preliminary/high-level review of the requirements document > (see details below); I don't think it currently is in a state to provide > adequate material for WG discussion. Besides specific requirements, the > text should include a clear justification for the WG to reach a consensus= . > The current version doesn't properly cover these aspects. > > The document points to the WG Charter in a couple of places as > justification for the work. Recommendation: Focus on the technical aspec= ts > and not whether something is in the Charter or not! If there is WG > consensus, a Charter can be amended to include new work. On the other > hand, while a Charter is used to provide scope and focus, it must not be > used as justification for doing work in the absence of discussion and > consensus. > > > The critical step towards adopting a solution (or solutions) is engaged > discussion of the requirements. After looking at the document (comments > below), I don't think it provides a good base for analysis. > The expectation is for the requirements to be clear, specific, measurable= , > and to justify their applicability in the solution. > > In consultation with the Chairs, we expect a revised requirements documen= t > *before* IETF 109. As I mentioned above, more engagement is needed in it= s > development. Ideally, the text will be discussed on the list as it > evolves. If a live discussion is required, the Chairs will organize one > (an interim meeting, if there is enough time before IETF 109). > > Greg is the Chair responsible for this process. [Side note: Tony has > decided to remove himself as co-author of one of the proposals. His > comments will be considered as coming from a WG participant.] > > > If anyone has concerns about this message, please contact me directly. > Again, I won't participate in the WG discussions, but (if needed) may > provide additional feedback related to my review of > draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 (below). > > > Thanks!! > > > Alvaro. > > > > > > Review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 > > This is an informal review. While I expect this document to serve as a > discussion point for the WG, and for it to *not* be published as an RFC, = I > have strong concerns about its contents. > > Note that the intent of providing a review at this point is to aid in > progressing the IPv6-related discussion. Any consensus on the specific > requirements should come from the WG, guided by the Chairs. > > Consider all my comments as my personal opinion. > > > =3D=3D=3D > > In general, the requirements listed are either too vague or not well > justified. The objective "to help the BIER WG evaluate the BIER v6 > requirements" cannot be met unless there is clarity that can lead to > engaged discussion. > > > The document starts by explaining the problem space (from the > Introduction): > > As clarified in the working-group, "BIER natively in IPv6" means BIER > not > encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet. This may include native IPv6 > encapsulation and generic IPv6 tunnelling. > > > I didn't look at the archive, but I'm sure the WG can do a better job!! > > This description is vague (""...natively in IPv6" means BIER not > encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet"), recursive (native "may include > native") and confusing (native "may include native...and...tunnelling > [sic]"). > > Note that the Problem Statement itself ("to transport BUM packets, with > BIER headers, in an IPv6 environment.") is straightforward -- the > expectation of what is required as a solution is not. > > > Two conceptual solution models are presented. The description of the > "Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering model from > rfc8279. In the best case, the terminology doesn't match; but I think th= at > the description might introduce new concepts. Note also that the stateme= nt > that "BIER-MPLS could use this approach directly since BIER-MPLS is based > on MPLS" seems to contradict the definition of "natively in IPv6". > > The description of the "Native IPv6 Model" gets a slightly different > treatment; for example, it includes benefits. Note that this model also > mentions "a trusted IPv6-based domain" while comparing the model to SRv6, > *and* talking about a "wider inter-AS scope". These seem to be > contradictions as a trusted domain is typically aligned to a single > administrative entity [rfc8402]. Again, the terminology may not be in > alignment...or more discussion may be needed on the scope. > > > > On to the requirements. As far as requirement levels go, I recommend tha= t > you use three levels instead of two: required, recommended, and optional. > The level should be justified depending on the potential deployment or > solution model. > > > Some of the mandatory requirements listed are obvious and probably don't > need even to be mentioned. That is the case for: > > 352 4.1.2. Support BIER architecture > 361 4.1.3. Conform to existing IPv6 Spec > 368 4.1.4. Support deployment with Non-BFR routers > > > Some of the requirements are not clear -- they need a better description > and clear justification. > > 345 4.1.1. L2 Agnostic > > 347 The solution must be agnostic to the underlying L2 data link > type. > 348 The solution needs to support P2P ethernet links as well as > shared > 349 media ethernet links without requiring the LAN switch to > perform BIER > 350 snooping. > > Agnostic to the L2 data link, but also needs to support specific > topologies. That is a contradiction. Also, where is "BIER snooping" > defined? > > > 376 4.1.5. Support inter-AS multicast deployment > > 378 Inter-AS multicast support is needed for ease of provisioning > the > 379 P2MP transport service to enterprises. This could greatly > increase > 380 the scalability of BIER, as it is usually considered to be > suitable > 381 only for small intra-AS scenarios. > > rfc8279 talks about a single BIER domain. There is no discussion about > BIER domains in the context of inter-AS operation in this draft or > draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain. Again, in the best case, we have a > terminology mismatch. Still, it is not clear if the text proposes new > functionality -- and using draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain as the base > for a mandatory requirement doesn't seem correct without WG consensus. > > > 383 4.1.6. Support Simple Encapsulation > > 385 The solution must avoid requiring different encapsulation > types. A > 386 solution needs to do careful trade-off analysis and select one > 387 encapsulation as its proposal for best coverage of various > scenarios. > > Based on the description of "natively in IPv6", it seems like anything > that is "not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet" should be ok. What is the > justification behind one encapsulation? It sounds like this requirement > opens the door to multiple solutions, each with different encapsulations = -- > doesn't that contradict a mandatory requirement of one? > > > Finally, we find the security requirement: > > 389 4.1.7. Support Deployment Security > > 391 The proposed solution must include careful security > considerations, > 392 including all that is already considered in BIER architecture > RFC8279 > 393 and RFC8296, and other security concerns that may raise due to > the > 394 addition of IPv6. > > I want to highlight the obvious nature of "must include careful security > considerations", which is a documentation issue -- there are no specific > security requirements on the solution itself? No particular mention of a= ny > security aspect. What is the technical need? :-( > > > The optional requirements don't fare much better. In general, please > clarify and justify them. > > Some of the optional requirements seem to be associated with unexplained > scenarios. For example, the support for MVPN or IPSEC...and the specific > need to forward "in hardware fast path". > > Others seem to make improper assumptions (for example, as far as I know, > there is no existing standard OAM method) or suggest potential enhancemen= ts > ("enhance the capability of BIER leveraging the BIER-MTU" > ??). > > > In summary, the list of requirements presented is not clear or adequately > justified. It is not conducive to a WG discussion about the requirements > themselves...much less about potential solutions. > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > -- > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions Architect * > > > > *M 301 502-1347 13101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > > --0000000000001726d105b01046ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    The authors were ask to remove the comparison section. I&#= 39;m asking you again. I'll wait for the next rev to comment.

    <= /div>
    Thanks,
    Greg

    =
    On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:44 AM Jeffr= ey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper= .net> wrote:

    Hi Gyan,

    =C2=A0

    A small clarification =E2=80=93 while the requiremen= ts draft -07 currently does have sections that briefly describe different m= odels/solutions, we have avoided discussing which one satisfies which requi= rements intentionally (as the focus is on listing requirements).

    =C2=A0

    With that, I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ve got a= conclusion that =E2=80=9CBIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today= has a MAJOR gap in being able to support SRv6 Service Provider core techno= logy requiring an IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D.

    =C2=A0

    Jeffre= y

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

    =C2=A0

    [External Email. Be cautious of content]=

    =C2=A0

    Greg

    =C2=A0=

    With a= ll do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism and any feed= back, however in this particular case with your response, there seems to be= a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had over the last several months.=C2=A0 Understandably, all of us = here in the WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, = and that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap = in being able to support SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, which will be the end all be= all replacement for MPLS.=C2=A0 It is critical that the BIER WG come up wi= th a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data plane for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 W= e all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a technology graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes.=C2=A0 We the a= uthors are all in agreement and running fast after that goal and understand= the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft.=C2=A0 We are w= ith you lock, stock and barrel.

    =C2=A0=

    The au= thors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsu= lation-08=E2=80=9D, BIERv6, referred to as the =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2= =80=9D, authors myself, McBride, Xuesong & Jingrong =C2=A0collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors of the BIER IPv6= Solutions draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D, BIERin6, re= ferred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & Sandy to come up= with a holistic solution where both conceptual models accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements to = support IPv6 for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We wanted to make sure that we had com= plete parity between conceptual models and relationships to the problem sta= tement and requirements list.=C2=A0 All authors from both solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our =E2=80=9Ci= =E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D dotted & =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D crossed so t= o speak, putting our best foot forward with this rev 7.

    =C2=A0=

    I woul= d like to point out that given the =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D BIERv= 6 Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the =E2=80=9CIndepend= ent model=E2=80=9D BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017.=C2=A0 It is only since January 2019 initial draft submission has the work to revers= e engineer to come up with the Requirements draft started a =E2=80=9Cpost m= ortem=E2=80=9D so to speak after the Solutions had already been proposed.= =C2=A0 To that end in IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to Section 3 conceptual framework for the two so= lutions proposed.=C2=A0 We are all at a loss in understanding your comments= as to removal of section 3.=C2=A0 In order to create a requirements draft = as part of any basic requirements analysis, you must have some idea or concept or inkling of a solutions framework to = graft & glean the list of requirements which otherwise is not possible = in my mind.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    If I h= ad my druthers and we lived in a perfect world, it would have been nice to = have completed the requirements draft prior to developing the solutions whi= ch now came before the egg so to speak.

    =C2=A0=

    Please= keep in mind the =E2=80=9Cwhich comes first issue here=E2=80=93 "chic= ken or the egg scenario=E2=80=9D in our case the chicken being the solution= draft's, and now we are working =E2=80=9Cbass-ackwards=E2=80=9D with r= azor focus now after the fact back on the requirements which was missed at the get-go= .

    =C2=A0=

    The WG= Charter does have verbiage that is inclusive of BIER in IPv6 and does use = the word =E2=80=9Cnative=E2=80=9D even though that has caused confusion and= we have eliminated it from the requirements draft=C2=A0 - excerpt below.

    =C2=A0=

    7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may b= e
    standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood
    applicability.

    =C2=A0=

    The pr= oblem statement is crystal clear that the challenge now is how and where to= encode BIER header in an IPV6 environment.=C2=A0 Plain and simple. =C2=A0<= /span>

    =C2=A0=

    Dear B= IER WG,

    =C2=A0=

    We the= authors welcome all WG participants on the ML to help collectively define = & further define the conceptual models, as well as address any deficien= cies with the requirements we have put together in the draft rev-7.=C2=A0 I would like to make it clear that none= of us authors are married to any solution and we welcome all ideas and sol= utions. =C2=A0=C2=A0

    =C2=A0=

    We are= all striving to keep an open mind thinking outside the box, so we don=E2= =80=99t box ourselves into any one solution, and are open to look at any an= d all options or solutions out there.

    =C2=A0=

    We all= want to be successful in coming up with a BIER solution that supports SRv6= the =E2=80=9Cend all be all=E2=80=9D replacement for MPLS. =C2=A0

    =C2=A0=

    Kind R= egards,

    =C2=A0=

    3D"Image

    Gyan Mishra

    Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

    M 301 502-1347
    13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
    Silver Spring, MD

    =C2=A0

    On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 11:47 AM Greg Shepherd <<= a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

    Jingrong,

    =C2=A0

    Sorry, no, it doesn't appear that much of the di= rection provided by WG members on the list, nor the WG Chairs, nor the AD w= as heeded at all. A requirements document needs to provide requirements - o= nly. This doc is still mistakenly written as a solutions comparison marketing doc - Section 3 does not belong in thi= s doc. The purpose of the reqs doc is to provide a guide for the WG to foll= ow in determining 1) IF a new encap is needed, and if so, 2) what any propo= sed solution needs to address that cannot be addressed with the available tools today. ONLY then will this do= c provide the guidance we need to evaluate 1).

    =C2=A0

    It's clear to me the current authors have little= intention=C2=A0of following the direction of the WG. At this time I recomm= end that we either:

    =C2=A0

    1) Replace/refresh the authors with people willing t= o work with the BIER WG members at large, and within the guidlines of the I= ETF.

    =C2=A0

    or

    =C2=A0

    2) de-adopt this document entirely. The WG as a whol= e can determine=C2=A0if I wishes to restart this effort.

    =C2=A0

    - Shep

    (chairs)

    =C2=A0

    On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 7:48 PM Xiejingrong (Jingron= g) <xiejingr= ong@huawei.com> wrote:

    Hello Alvaro, Wg,
    Firstly thank you alvaro and the chairs for the clear directing!
    The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the dire= ction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed.
    Your further comments, corrections, complaints, compliments are all welcome= .

    Thanks
    Jingrong

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 10:19 PM
    To: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation@ietf.org; draf= t-zhang-bier-bierin6@ietf.org; = draft-pfister-bier-over-ipv6@ietf.org; d= raft-xu-bier-encapsulation@ietf.org
    Cc: bier@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:bier-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"> bier-chairs@ietf.org
    Subject: BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions

    Hello all!

    I am directing this message to the authors of the BIER in IPv6-related work= .=C2=A0 I am also copying the WG because this work needs more engagement[*]= , making sure I don't miss anyone.

    =C2=A0 [*] More engagement in the form of substantive discussions from non-=
    =C2=A0 authors, and diversity of affiliations.


    Some of you raised concerns to the IESG about the speed at which the IPv6-r= elated work has been moving, and the ability to discuss it during WG meetin= gs.=C2=A0 In response, I am providing my opinion of the current state and, = after consultation with the Chairs, reinforcing the required steps to move any work forward.

    Note that my intent is not to insert myself in the discussions, but to get = them back on track.=C2=A0 All decisions should be made by WG consensus as i= nterpreted by the Chairs [rfc2418].


    I have done a preliminary/high-level review of the requirements document (s= ee details below); I don't think it currently is in a state to provide = adequate material for WG discussion.=C2=A0 Besides specific requirements, t= he text should include a clear justification for the WG to reach a consensus.=C2=A0 The current version doesn't pro= perly cover these aspects.

    The document points to the WG Charter in a couple of places as justificatio= n for the work.=C2=A0 Recommendation: Focus on the technical aspects and no= t whether something is in the Charter or not!=C2=A0 If there is WG consensu= s, a Charter can be amended to include new work.=C2=A0 On the other hand, while a Charter is used to provide scope an= d focus, it must not be used as justification for doing work in the absence= of discussion and consensus.


    The critical step towards adopting a solution (or solutions) is engaged dis= cussion of the requirements.=C2=A0 After looking at the document (comments = below), I don't think it provides a good base for analysis.
    The expectation is for the requirements to be clear, specific, measurable, = and to justify their applicability in the solution.

    In consultation with the Chairs, we expect a revised requirements document = *before* IETF 109.=C2=A0 As I mentioned above, more engagement is needed in= its development.=C2=A0 Ideally, the text will be discussed on the list as = it evolves.=C2=A0 If a live discussion is required, the Chairs will organize one (an interim meeting, if there is enough time = before IETF 109).

    Greg is the Chair responsible for this process. =C2=A0[Side note: Tony has = decided to remove himself as co-author of one of the proposals.=C2=A0 His c= omments will be considered as coming from a WG participant.]


    If anyone has concerns about this message, please contact me directly.
    Again, I won't participate in the WG discussions, but (if needed) may p= rovide additional feedback related to my review of
    draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06 (below).


    Thanks!!


    Alvaro.





    Review of draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-06

    This is an informal review.=C2=A0 While I expect this document to serve as = a discussion point for the WG, and for it to *not* be published as an RFC, = I have strong concerns about its contents.

    Note that the intent of providing a review at this point is to aid in progr= essing the IPv6-related discussion.=C2=A0 Any consensus on the specific req= uirements should come from the WG, guided by the Chairs.

    Consider all my comments as my personal opinion.


    =3D=3D=3D

    In general, the requirements listed are either too vague or not well justif= ied.=C2=A0 The objective "to help the BIER WG evaluate the BIER v6 req= uirements" cannot be met unless there is clarity that can lead to enga= ged discussion.


    The document starts by explaining the problem space (from the Introduction)= :

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0As clarified in the working-group, "BIER natively in IPv6= " means BIER not
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet.=C2=A0 This may include nativ= e IPv6
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation and generic IPv6 tunnelling.


    I didn't look at the archive, but I'm sure the WG can do a better j= ob!!

    This description is vague (""...natively in IPv6" means BIER= not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet"), recursive (native "may i= nclude
    native") and confusing (native "may include native...and...tunnel= ling [sic]").

    Note that the Problem Statement itself ("to transport BUM packets, wit= h BIER headers, in an IPv6 environment.") is straightforward -- the ex= pectation of what is required as a solution is not.


    Two conceptual solution models are presented.=C2=A0 The description of the = "Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering mo= del from rfc8279.=C2=A0 In the best case, the terminology doesn't match= ; but I think that the description might introduce new concepts.=C2=A0 Note also that the statement that "BIER-MPLS could use this approach = directly since BIER-MPLS is based on MPLS" seems to contradict the def= inition of "natively in IPv6".

    The description of the "Native IPv6 Model" gets a slightly differ= ent treatment; for example, it includes benefits.=C2=A0 Note that this mode= l also mentions "a trusted IPv6-based domain" while comparing the= model to SRv6, *and* talking about a "wider inter-AS scope".=C2= =A0 These seem to be contradictions as a trusted domain is typically aligned t= o a single administrative entity [rfc8402].=C2=A0 Again, the terminology ma= y not be in alignment...or more discussion may be needed on the scope.



    On to the requirements.=C2=A0 As far as requirement levels go, I recommend = that you use three levels instead of two: required, recommended, and option= al.=C2=A0 The level should be justified depending on the potential deployme= nt or solution model.


    Some of the mandatory requirements listed are obvious and probably don'= t need even to be mentioned.=C2=A0 That is the case for:

    352=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.2.=C2=A0 Support BIER architecture
    361=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.3.=C2=A0 Conform to existing IPv6 Spec
    368=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.4.=C2=A0 Support deployment with Non-BFR routers=


    Some of the requirements are not clear -- they need a better description an= d clear justification.

    345=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.1.=C2=A0 L2 Agnostic

    347=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution must be agnostic to the underly= ing L2 data link type.
    348=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution needs to support P2P ethernet l= inks as well as shared
    349=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 media ethernet links without requiring the L= AN switch to perform BIER
    350=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 snooping.

    Agnostic to the L2 data link, but also needs to support specific topologies= .=C2=A0 That is a contradiction.=C2=A0 Also, where is "BIER snooping&q= uot;
    defined?


    376=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.5.=C2=A0 Support inter-AS multicast deployment
    378=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Inter-AS multicast support is needed for eas= e of provisioning the
    379=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 P2MP transport service to enterprises.=C2=A0= This could greatly increase
    380=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the scalability of BIER, as it is usually co= nsidered to be suitable
    381=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 only for small intra-AS scenarios.

    rfc8279 talks about a single BIER domain.=C2=A0 There is no discussion abou= t BIER domains in the context of inter-AS operation in this draft or draft-= geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain.=C2=A0 Again, in the best case, we have a termi= nology mismatch. Still, it is not clear if the text proposes new functionality -- and using draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inte= r-domain as the base for a mandatory requirement doesn't seem correct w= ithout WG consensus.


    383=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.6.=C2=A0 Support Simple Encapsulation

    385=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The solution must avoid requiring different = encapsulation types. =C2=A0A
    386=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 solution needs to do careful trade-off analy= sis and select one
    387=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encapsulation as its proposal for best cover= age of various scenarios.

    Based on the description of "natively in IPv6", it seems like any= thing that is "not encapsulated in MPLS or Ethernet" should be ok= .=C2=A0 What is the justification behind one encapsulation?=C2=A0 It sounds= like this requirement opens the door to multiple solutions, each with different encapsulations -- doesn't that contradict a mandatory r= equirement of one?


    Finally, we find the security requirement:

    389=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.1.7.=C2=A0 Support Deployment Security

    391=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The proposed solution must include careful s= ecurity considerations,
    392=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 including all that is already considered in = BIER architecture RFC8279
    393=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and RFC8296, and other security concerns tha= t may raise due to the
    394=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 addition of IPv6.

    I want to highlight the obvious nature of "must include careful securi= ty considerations", which is a documentation issue -- there are no spe= cific security requirements on the solution itself?=C2=A0 No particular men= tion of any security aspect.=C2=A0 What is the technical need? =C2=A0:-(


    The optional requirements don't fare much better.=C2=A0 In general, ple= ase clarify and justify them.

    Some of the optional requirements seem to be associated with unexplained sc= enarios.=C2=A0 For example, the support for MVPN or IPSEC...and the specifi= c need to forward "in hardware fast path".

    Others seem to make improper assumptions (for example, as far as I know, th= ere is no existing standard OAM method) or suggest potential enhancements (= "enhance the capability of BIER leveraging the BIER-MTU"
    =C2=A0??).


    In summary, the list of requirements presented is not clear or adequately j= ustified.=C2=A0 It is not conducive to a WG discussion about the requiremen= ts themselves...much less about potential solutions.

    _______________________________________________
    BIER mailing list
    BIER@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier<= /a>


    =C2=A0

    --

    --0000000000001726d105b01046ce-- --0000000000001726d605b01046cf Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image001.jpg" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <174c0918b554ce8e91> X-Attachment-Id: 174c0918b554ce8e91 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEBIAEgAAD/2wBDAAoHBwkHBgoJCAkLCwoMDxkQDw4ODx4WFxIZJCAmJSMg IyIoLTkwKCo2KyIjMkQyNjs9QEBAJjBGS0U+Sjk/QD3/wAALCAA3APIBAREA/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEB AQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1Fh ByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZ WmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXG x8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oACAEBAAA/APZqKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK/9k= --0000000000001726d605b01046cf-- From nobody Thu Sep 24 11:25:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201053A11FF; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:25:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XZHnHFrFhDsD; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D8453A11FD; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id j2so4370142ioj.7; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:25:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ooxnp47rYzDWHVvfpeFPExGGovw+8yB8ni1ktpsPhVA=; b=H82YRAjBw5dIipX9rMytpUad8norWxVwukHxaROTgS70bRa7kF8OlzcuUJSTqcRRUq aDtFHQd9SJ6lZlBnZihods23rippO9yaj7XAb5ia4HpzBk/ZLZt8+F03NlxbxGujI52c ltuU0ZUjVWAcSdeRc5iFSpr9yD6e7pIsmI6l9qxAv8K/WKC+H2I204KCq4LtXvi//ryu kfUkRfClwjfhvNHjsebGlN4lfrLxiwTLrZwIUxG477ZAWiKniJfmQ3Qz9LZrit7F2uiS tkJeQQsPZ51YBjAkE98bBZQ3bSs/3uvmbiKjiVYbgu3TcCoO341qOJAt0rxCq7onxhdK JbDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ooxnp47rYzDWHVvfpeFPExGGovw+8yB8ni1ktpsPhVA=; b=l5H1zlLCBeI915vqrgi8g4vkG6E1AoQmqZbp3bSfAZUsi1h/8PwYggOCqBgagusqyp 2fRrS7PJSm7by7VqPlt2zxLnjJ/aSvQbWF8RVszSJH3PzFCQXy7SSJR2I7zaGS9OxoFC dltNtYiOh7TEZcJGcygFF8mxyzTJDdp0t9GLlNrWtPD/rmvQMuqGOrxFBMgwSc9TEQo4 y/on+/I9uiP73yZ0ZyzXX+fBfMjTtnA58FrdiTA6cMfW3wAaSzr1l5WqXJm4iwJBOaK/ JcxZdRSuqzp8F1EgSxmmJFutEXorOejfAOYJNJRt4yXhuAmwf2+Gaou5huZ5/6Fs9KqD gLvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532PN+EiYvT/8nrrTcTYC6xjp7b4k/j6PH/qvKakOjRyPhSqoQcZ tnjlF6aqLi1a+myElL8SHq8y6mGzLwCQ6sAJi+k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx0YMSoXWykmJaKkyUaa6sHWMlYO5uHUEw4CJP7xUax8aey4NnE4KHE6HWdW5oxvxEZb5qv7/H7NEUdztOv258= X-Received: by 2002:a02:8782:: with SMTP id t2mr103845jai.56.1600971901426; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:25:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 11:24:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: Gyan Mishra Cc: Greg Shepherd , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007ade1a05b01351c1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 18:25:04 -0000 --0000000000007ade1a05b01351c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 10:45 PM Gyan Mishra wrote: > Greg > > > > With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism and > any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, there > seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had over the las= t > several months. Understandably, all of us here in the WG realize the > criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and that BIER-MPLS & > BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to suppor= t > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, which > will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS. It is critical that the > BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data plane for > SRv6 support. We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a technology > graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes. We the authors are all in > agreement and running fast after that goal and understand the AD & Chairs > now emphasis on the requirements draft. We are with you lock, stock and > barrel. > > > > The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft > =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2=80=9D, BIERv6, referred = to as the > =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myself, McBride, Xuesong & Ji= ngrong > collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors o= f > the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80= =9D, BIERin6, > referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & Sandy to come up > with a holistic solution where both conceptual models accurately addresse= d > the problem statement as well as the requirements to support IPv6 for SRv= 6 > support. We wanted to make sure that we had complete parity between > conceptual models and relationships to the problem statement and > requirements list. All authors from both solutions worked together to > ensure we had all of our =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D dotted & =E2=80=9C= t=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D crossed so to speak, putting > our best foot forward with this rev 7. > Gyan, first, please switch off the SRv6 marketing trumpet rather than focusing on the feedback WG/AD/chairs provided. Whatever you say here presents your opinon on many things and your opinion only which may or may not be wrong, fact being, neither is SRv6 cooked with many things like SRm6 in flight and some basic drafts still under serious contention. I won't repeat all the technical/charter and other arguments that are well documented in email threads and minutes and have been repeatedly dismissed/unaddressed with the tenor from the authors largely matching your email here. Overall I'm agreeing with Greg's email that what should be done with this draft to right the ship, i.e. unadopt it or build a much more inclusive/diverse authors' list that is interested in working within the IETF process. Or ultimately just ice it and start a new draft altogether. thanks -- tony > -- > > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions A**rchitect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > --0000000000007ade1a05b01351c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 10:45 PM Gyan= Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
    <= div dir=3D"ltr">

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    With all do respect, the authors welcome the= AD and Chairs criticism and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, there= seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had over the last severa= l months.=C2=A0 Understandably, all of us here in the WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and t= hat BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being = able to support SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data pla= ne, which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS.=C2=A0 It is critical that = the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data plane for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We all= don't want BIER to die on the vine in a technology graveyard with ATM,= Frame Relay and the likes.=C2=A0 We the authors are all in agreement and r= unning fast after that goal and understand the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft.=C2=A0 We are with you lock, stock and barrel.

    =C2=A0

    The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft= =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2=80=9D, BIERv6, referred to as the =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myse= lf, McBride, Xuesong & Jingrong =C2=A0collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions d= raft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D, BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & Sandy= to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual models accurately ad= dressed the problem statement as well as the requirements to support IPv6 for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We wanted to make sure that we had complete parity between c= onceptual models and relationships to the problem statement and requirement= s list.=C2=A0 All authors from both solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D d= otted & =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D crossed so to speak, putting our best foot forward with this rev 7.

    <= /blockquote>

    Gyan, first, please switch off the SRv= 6 marketing trumpet rather than focusing on the feedback WG/AD/chairs provi= ded. Whatever you say here presents your opinon on many things and your opi= nion only which may or may not be wrong, fact being, neither is SRv6 cooked= with many things like SRm6 in flight and some basic drafts still under ser= ious contention.

    I won't repeat all the t= echnical/charter and other arguments that are well documented in email thre= ads and minutes and have been repeatedly dismissed/unaddressed with the ten= or from the authors largely matching your email here.

    Overall I'm agreeing with Greg's email that what should be= done with this draft to right the ship, i.e. unadopt it or build a much mo= re inclusive/diverse authors' list that is interested in working within= the IETF process. Or ultimately just ice it and start a new draft altogeth= er.

    thanks

    -- t= ony

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0--

    --0000000000007ade1a05b01351c1-- From nobody Thu Sep 24 12:22:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A963A123F; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 12:22:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y8D21i5KwaCO; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 12:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A86D3A1243; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 12:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id l17so43461edq.12; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 12:22:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bOdcoMq9AbRIRbu+DdshRNs6d0p+aOeiW8V/Oz5FYWc=; b=Tl/NUJDYKdmUJHsU9GyFFZlWFrBB5XuZBUWKwwIz/hk/aAyvQr31g3gsw2B9ASl+e2 HtJ/HMFp/8w9s9/+Pg8cPMlQJuKjsoW0qZbN04a9kSP5LWC7zzcdPmdVGUALLPakiF1P TLEzEv//HGJ6OZ8UjbuxDrhYrLjeUTcMrezVxHX1/4NjoZEp9p/mKBaG1uhhTvr0RYdw VVgy2yiZlrcHkuGqeo37vmdLxkyqQTNs1/XGjY+uynwF562Ck036OEeoEnWrSpIcGxFF uUiA2a55My9LGIgx2RFlxAwpAPWuvND9czBCZG1cfGrGdpLLtScHbnnwL0w9fHZH/ln1 CwJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bOdcoMq9AbRIRbu+DdshRNs6d0p+aOeiW8V/Oz5FYWc=; b=n/fhIA7fzCxVoskbvCqWCZiSZI4on5Wyaca53E5jmYWCjQ5UB58m+9ltGl0kbBh6kD +1otcAwzCQlT4cZMz6QNFfRLHDX3LEwOlRZGvpGA4c/1u2E3xc4yuuyOy1bqoAeZiYhr uhlv+ZtKHionTLfB7fgz+BueDl+eTqsTgQZPi/UpUKQR3qZ3/2psCKcD+vdflrKhQZPu zMQd//zmGJFpBRL5ZO9qgyg7aB+DfCTLc0DG+1yH2V3yyhH3JpZteNQ+U7pjB3+UGLjp MvPR4r3UwVtFvnmwxA7LoPbhYpUschsBNfSaT1zXEBDnm8HbiuJ2x6OmZLqrsJeJH18W oMUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530I5PbEbhBLMat8Y20MI21/FIBpop1TazwwJ073n9R8j0wfu8W4 3HS5GHnB/jMjwdNNzbDXJZKKXmFl8RixvKCthy8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNYom0my+s0TVuD6Bu7rKAyVvfi3k+8M722dfaeFTKgRXY4rYU3NDCH3Q7lEEoWqfpIhOWH5nMVFgWFGvhSQg= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:cd5a:: with SMTP id v26mr374980edw.38.1600975322635; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 12:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 15:22:01 -0400 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 15:22:01 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" Cc: "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:22:12 -0000 On September 17, 2020 at 10:48:51 PM, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) wrote: Jingrong: Hi! > The new requirements draft had been posted, please read and see if the > direction is correctly followed and if your comments are addressed. I'm replying because you continued this thread (and directed the message to me), but I would have preferred a discussion inside the WG. As Greg already mentioned, the requirements should provide enough information to determine "what any proposed solution needs to address that cannot be addressed with the available tools today". =C2=A0In light of my previous review, let's take a quick look at the mandatory requirements: [Line numbers from idnits.] 255 4.1.1. =C2=A0Support various L2 link types 257 =C2=A0 The solution should support various kinds of L2 data link types= . Which are the mandatory types? =C2=A0Ethernet, I guess. =C2=A0I assume that some, like maybe IEEE 802.15.4, may not be. If the intent is to run BIER "through an IPv6 network underlay", doesn't the requirement of multiple L2 link support fall on IPv6? 259 4.1.2. =C2=A0Support BIER architecture 261 =C2=A0 The solution must support the BIER architecture. 263 =C2=A0 Supporting different multicast flow overlays, multiple sub-doma= ins, 264 =C2=A0 multi-topologies, multiple sets, multiple Bit String Lengths, a= nd 265 =C2=A0 deterministic ECMP are considered essential functions of BIER a= nd 266 =C2=A0 need to be supported. This is an obvious requirement. =C2=A0Sure, the WG can discuss whether a solution complies with the BIER architecture, but because we are in the bier WG I would assume that is a given. Are there specifics on how the sub-domains (for example) need to be set up for an IPv6 network that may be different from an MPLS network? =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m just grasping at straws... 268 4.1.3. =C2=A0Support deployment with Non-BFR routers 270 =C2=A0 The solution must support deployments with BIER-incapable route= rs. 271 =C2=A0 This is beneficial to the deployment of BIER, especially in ear= ly 272 =C2=A0 deployments when some routers do not support BIER forwarding bu= t 273 =C2=A0 support IPv6 forwarding. Support for non-BFR routers is already part of the architecture. 275 4.1.4. =C2=A0Support OAM 277 =C2=A0 BIER OAM should be supported, either directly using existing me= thods, 278 =C2=A0 or by specifying a new method for the same functionality. =C2= =A0It may be 279 =C2=A0 considered essential as part of the BIER architecture in some c= ases. As I mentioned before, there's no standard BIER OAM method to be supported, or to build "a new method for the same functionality". Assuming compliance with the BIER architecture, out of these mandatory requirements I don't think I can identify one that would help the WG decide whether a new solution is needed, or select between multiple of them. :-( Thanks! Alvaro. From nobody Thu Sep 24 14:24:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A023A12D9; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 14:24:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ObVZcc_Ecg6n; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 14:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x142.google.com (mail-lf1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 545F53A113E; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 14:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x142.google.com with SMTP id w11so471348lfn.2; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 14:24:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Zkvtcf7Wj54ZNb2bMcqZfrmdD87IlDEyx02Z5pzzEkk=; b=ezAlF3M8nry7JrTKXZhCKr6WHTlCxppbRSFAdHtXCWqZ/93cNwwnUN+qoBdsY3mkYz AQXyks0+8oHb7vesrSrC3nFCmTK5MqMolx6vwYHAdMFHhg0U6bkp07XK9poq2DJPLhed /AjKTb66+asPKybUblyQ97RO9o2M3PPEahJYGgyklqQyEX/u7efvdrWXqIhiulG+Rxws drs/bdabshoWw7UhxB1POOMIWhS45GW2T/MciC1MTl/1zOPLJfz/3EC1cMv/MvlJsNru Qk29sF6+4n7tdlJn1yK7cAg14aZwHVidoFCucLgGM+Jgisy6OXubhdS8z98IffiFu3/e HupQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Zkvtcf7Wj54ZNb2bMcqZfrmdD87IlDEyx02Z5pzzEkk=; b=J5N1NUTna2D1f+Lmp5c55Sp8ljjG6ILPvtO2hOOSxotOjvB6zHjpiudcFzMhg5NKxu NtSg6l85m20GWr2XgGXVdB0KIGe+a8NZeAJc+48hYrnU7JFpXuiBP02gWU6Ecrsvu5ie tl0fEBdC1VZdP7h52SzAF84UTfTT7yvPCWRuC5zyJqkDcxOWllxeJhgfPcqHKJlIsGNp Y5dzXghokydtUkCprAf3Atjg/etA4nSSe65EgFi70xL4b8ilMATE+FyMymwliQ2/hK1L 5TypY64SlVf2PtsVxT2b8aXJ2osyAgTXW0WoRwy8uRaKHfGO+QZaft3eKQJ7iMJc+Cm6 spcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ydmbKppGoY6erldji0VTzzU8eOPuFyAlWwW94yY+ZBjb3mHq/ 5E6vcENq2eAD8EgJo1c8yiv3fGQv64twGc2BS+1n53YI X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzRfCFUfVHrTVFMP/0jrCKJmThe6MZvYznip6T53nYUiyPn5B86xSmz2vVjrehj5W+ypRIutsUyHn57ikVqgaY= X-Received: by 2002:a19:848d:: with SMTP id g135mr252416lfd.56.1600982667056; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 14:24:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 14:24:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG , BIER WG Chairs , Alvaro Retana , draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000029599505b015d3dd" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] The Document Shepherd Write-Uo X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 21:24:31 -0000 --00000000000029599505b015d3dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, the first version of the Document Shepherd's Write-Up is ready for your review. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. Regards, Greg --00000000000029599505b015d3dd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear All,
    the first version of the Document Shepherd&#= 39;s Write-Up is ready for your review. Please let me know if you have any = questions or=C2=A0comments.

    Regards,
    Gre= g
    --00000000000029599505b015d3dd-- From nobody Thu Sep 24 16:53:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietf.org Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796E73A0A42; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 16:53:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <160099160842.25656.12709846588261765836@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 16:53:28 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-08.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 23:53:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER IPv6 Requirements Authors : Mike McBride Jingrong Xie Xuesong Geng Senthil Dhanaraj Rajiv Asati Yongqing Zhu Gyan Mishra Zhaohui Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-08.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2020-09-24 Abstract: There have been several proposed solutions with BIER being used in IPv6. But there hasn't been a document which describes the problem and lists the requirements. The goal of this document is to describe the general BIER IPv6 encapsulation problem, summarize the encapsulation modes of the proposed solutions, detail solution requirements, and assist the working group in the development of acceptable solutions. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-08 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Sep 24 17:11:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF7D3A0978; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 17:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LH_URI_DOM_IN_PATH=1.446, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xkb87-mUpzKK; Thu, 24 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with SMTP id i11mr1718788edr.164.1601000649987; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:24:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:23:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: BIER WG , BIER WG Chairs , Alvaro Retana , draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000071d4905b01a037a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] The Document Shepherd Write-Uo X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 02:24:13 -0000 --000000000000071d4905b01a037a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks! Looks ready for IESG to me. What say you all? - Shep On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:24 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear All, > the first version of the Document Shepherd's Write-Up is ready for your > review. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. > > Regards, > Greg > --000000000000071d4905b01a037a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Thanks! Looks ready for IESG to me. What say you all?
    =
    - Shep

    On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:24 PM Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrot= e:
    Dear All,
    the first versi= on of the Document Shepherd's Write-Up is ready for your review. Please= let me know if you have any questions or=C2=A0comments.

    Regards,
    Greg
    --000000000000071d4905b01a037a-- From nobody Thu Sep 24 20:09:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C08A23A0EF9; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 20:09:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jPzbnFF-9hxA; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 20:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCBF53A0EF4; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 20:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml751-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 63210FA55BAEAD6608AB; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 04:09:02 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggema771-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.213) by lhreml751-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 04:09:01 +0100 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by dggema771-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.213) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 11:08:58 +0800 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 11:08:59 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "gjshep@gmail.com" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" CC: Gyan Mishra , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions Thread-Index: AQHWbMW4dgfn6+MGUES/VrRb3l1J16ltbMgAgADZgYCACMREgIAARH4AgABTqICAAVN0gA== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 03:08:59 +0000 Message-ID: <0577c1902546498d84af1f705dac6c21@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.242.209] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0577c1902546498d84af1f705dac6c21huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 03:09:08 -0000 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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EYEHsdpUhNwF; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 07:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com (mail-ej1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20B6D3A0AE7; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 07:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id u21so4001300eja.2; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 07:41:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=02fv9zjb+bPbToukgzqJz2qrzA4ufYxBNN7CEcR6J2A=; b=A7knUI7nvEDdiIGLzg/4KDr/gjz02VjwcTlpsjBkSjxPOQgcKCw+H1lpmcNwl/KUHf 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfEv/uNiMrhFVgi4N/2ICdINQ+2lE2ipFHK5Qxh114sDeg3zzi5E8waPiHIIdvMwXpNAbQ79jeDscV8Y03Ayg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b053:: with SMTP id bj19mr2949580ejb.146.1601044861389; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 07:41:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0577c1902546498d84af1f705dac6c21@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <0577c1902546498d84af1f705dac6c21@huawei.com> Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 07:40:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" Cc: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Gyan Mishra , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b8fec05b0244ed2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 14:41:07 -0000 --0000000000003b8fec05b0244ed2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xuesong, Inline: On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:09 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) < gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote: > Just one more comment: Any WG feedback is welcome. All the previous > comments are carefully considered and discussed among authors[*]. If ther= e > is something new, raise it up with implementable operations and it will b= e > addressed. (Unless I'm missing something, section 3 hasn=E2=80=99t been a= sked to be > removed or even considered inappropriate until version 07 was published i= n > my knowledge) > There was no 'solution comparison' section in rev 0. It appeared in rev1, and at the end of the doc. Since then that section has been carefully word-smithed to direct the conversation about the requirements themselves. It was removed in rev 4 at the request of the WG. Then it reappeared in rev 6 - without any WG request - and promoted to the top of the document, no longer hiding the authors intent of leading the conversation on requirements. So yes, nobody asked to remove it since rev 4 since it was no longer there. As soon as it reappeared, the authors were asked to remove it. Nothing new here except the authors' increasing pressure to resist input from the WG. Please remove that section rev the draft. There is nothing more to discuss until then. Thanks, - Chairs (Shep) > Xuesong > > > > [*]Here are all the comments we have received from WG since IETF 108 (mos= t > recent comments not inluded). Here are some explanations about how we > address/consider these comments in version 07. > > > > 1. Comments from Greg Shepherd > > Section 2 Problem Statement > > - =E2=80=9CIPv6 unicast technologies can support multi-point trans= port=E2=80=9D > seems not clear > > [New Version] This sentence has been removed > > > > Section 3.2 Naive IPv6 Model > > - =E2=80=9CBIER is integrated into the IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D is not p= recise, could be > considered to modify as =E2=80=9CBIER header integrated into the IPv6 hea= der=E2=80=9D > > [New Version] Similar expressions are maintained in this version, > including: > > =E2=80=9C The second conceptual model is an Integrated Model that integ= rates > > BIER as part of the IPv6 data plane, making it a "Layer-3 BIER" > > approach.=E2=80=9D > > =E2=80=9CIn this model, BIER works as part of the IPv6 data plane.=E2=80= =9D > > This has been discussed among the authors. If we take it narrowly, =E2=80= =9CIPv6 > data plane=E2=80=9D may mean to look up IP routing table and find the nex= t hop, in > which case, BIER could not be treated as part of it; while if we take it > broadly, =E2=80=9CIPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D may include all the forwarding= behavior > happening in IPv6 layer including parsing extension headers, in which cas= e, > BIER could be treated as part of it. > > > > 2. Comments from Sandy Zhang: > > Section 2 problem statement > > - Not only non-BFR node scenario should be included > > [New version] It has been covered in the new version by > > =E2=80=9CIt may > > also be desirable to not use IPv6 encapsulation except when IPv6 > > tunneling (native or GRE/UDP-like) is used to transport BIER packets > > over BIER-incapable routers.=E2=80=9D > > > > Section 3.1 > > - There is no fragmentation or IPSEC executed in BFR > > [New Version] > > An example has been added in section 4.2.1 to clarify the case and fix th= e > comments. > > > > Section 3.2 > > - Fast forwarding could not be supported if using IPv6 extension > header > > - How to deal with the relationship with other extension header, > e.g., fragmentation header > > [New version] > > This will be defined in the solution document rather than the requirement > document. > > > > 3. Comments from Jeffrey Zhang: > > Section 2 Problem Statement -> Request to remove/modify the descriptions > that may be considered biased: > > - Inter-domain is not model specific. Reference to individual draf= t > should be removed. > > [New version] > > Descriptions about Inter-domain has been removed. > > - The descriptions of fragmentation is not reasonable because > fragmentation/reassembly does not happen on each BFR when it is connected > directly with another BFR. > > [New version] > > Descriptions about fragmentation in section 3 has been removed. > > - IPv6 native functions should not be requested by Layer2.5 > tunneling, which could be executed in IPv6 layer. > > [New version] > > Descriptions about other IPv6 functions in section 3 have been removed. > > Section 4.1.6 Simple Encapsulation-> Unclear requirement item > > [New version] > > This requirement has been removed. > > > > 4. Comments from Alvaro Retana > > Section 2 > > - Problem Statement should be straight forward > > [New version] > > Problem Statement has been modified totally with help of Gyan and Jeffrey= . > > > > Section 3 > > - Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering > model from rfc8279 > > [New version] > > The layering of BIER defined in RFC8279 is not the same as it has been > discussed in section 3, where layer 3/layer 2.5 means protocol layering o= f > TCP/IP. > > - It seems that there is some Bias for native IPv6 Model > > [New version] > > Section 3.1. Independent Model has been well modified by Jeffrey as the > one of the main authors of the document of BIERin6. > > > > Section 4 > > - Three levels: required, recommended, and optional > > - Some mandatory requirements need no explanation, including: > Support BIER architecture; Conform to existing IPv6 Spec; Support > deployment with Non-BFR routers) > > - Some of the requirements are not clear, e.g., L2 Agnostic, > Support Simple Encapsulation, Support Deployment Security > > - Some of the requirements are not included in RFC8279, e.g., > Support inter-AS multicast deployment > > [New version] > > All the requirement items have been reorganized. Well known requirement i= s > kept simple and optional requirement is justified with example. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Shepherd [mailto:gjshep@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 10:44 PM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Cc: Gyan Mishra ; Xiejingrong (Jingrong) < > xiejingrong@huawei.com>; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; > bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana > > Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions > > > > The authors were ask to remove the comparison section. I'm asking you > again. I'll wait for the next rev to comment. > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:44 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang < > zzhang@juniper.net> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Gyan, > > > > > > > > > > > > A small clarification =E2=80=93 while the requirements draft -07 curren= tly > > > does have sections that briefly describe different models/solutions, > > > we have avoided discussing which one satisfies which requirements > > > intentionally (as the focus is on listing requirements). > > > > > > > > > > > > With that, I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ve got a conclusion that = =E2=80=9CBIER-MPLS & > > > BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to > > > support > > > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane=E2= =80=9D. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > > > *From:* Gyan Mishra > > > *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM > > > *To:* Greg Shepherd > > > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; > > > draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org; > > > bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana > > > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions > > > > > > > > > > > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism > > > and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, > > > there seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had > > > over the last several months. Understandably, all of us here in the > > > WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and > > > that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in > > > being able to support > > > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, > > > which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS. It is critical > > > that the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data > > > plane for > > > SRv6 support. We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a > > > technology graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes. We the > > > authors are all in agreement and running fast after that goal and > > > understand the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft. We > > > are with you lock, stock and barrel. > > > > > > > > > > > > The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft > > > =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2=80=9D, BIERv6, referre= d to as the > > > =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myself, McBride, Xuesong & = Jingrong > > > collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors > > > of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07= =E2=80=9D, > > > BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & > > > Sandy to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual models > > > accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements > > > to support IPv6 for SRv6 support. We wanted to make sure that we had > > > complete parity between conceptual models and relationships to the > > > problem statement and requirements list. All authors from both > > > solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80= =99s=E2=80=9D dotted & > > > =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D crossed so to speak, putting our best foo= t forward with this rev > 7. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to point out that given the =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2= =80=9D BIERv6 > > > Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the =E2=80=9CIndepe= ndent > model=E2=80=9D > > > BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017. It is only since January > > > 2019 initial draft submission has the work to reverse engineer to come > > > up with the Requirements draft started a =E2=80=9Cpost mortem=E2=80=9D = so to speak > > > after the Solutions had already been proposed. To that end in > > > IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to > > > Section 3 conceptual framework for the two solutions proposed. We are > > > all at a loss in understanding your comments as to removal of section > > > 3. In order to create a requirements draft as part of any basic > > > requirements analysis, you must have some idea or concept or inkling > > > of a solutions framework to graft & glean the list of requirements whic= h > otherwise is not possible in my mind > --0000000000003b8fec05b0244ed2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Xuesong,

    Inline:

    On Thu, Sep = 24, 2020 at 8:09 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote:

    Just one more comment: Any WG f= eedback is welcome. All the previous comments are carefully considered and = discussed among authors[*]. If there is something new, raise it up with implementable operations and it will be addressed. (= Unless I'm missing something, section 3 hasn=E2=80=99t been asked to be= removed or even considered inappropriate until version 07 was published in= my knowledge)


    There= was no 'solution comparison' section in rev 0. It appeared in rev1= , and at the end of the doc. Since then that section has been carefully wor= d-smithed to direct the conversation=C2=A0about the requirements themselves= . It was removed in rev 4 at the request of the WG. Then it reappeared in r= ev 6 - without any=C2=A0WG request - and promoted to the top of the documen= t, no longer hiding the authors intent of leading the conversation on requi= rements. So yes, nobody asked to remove it since rev 4 since it was no long= er there. As soon as it reappeared, the authors were asked to remove it. No= thing new here except the authors' increasing pressure to resist input = from the WG.

    Please remove that section rev the dr= aft. There is nothing more to discuss until then.

    = Thanks,
    - Chairs
    (Shep)=C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    Xuesong

    =C2=A0

    [*]Here are all the comments we= have received from WG since IETF 108 (most recent comments not inluded). H= ere are some explanations about how we address/consider these comments in version 07.

    =C2=A0

    1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Comments from Greg Shepherd

    Section 2 Problem Statement<= /u>

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIPv6 unicast technologies can support multi-point tra= nsport=E2=80=9D seems not clear

    [New Version] This sentence has been remov= ed

    =C2=A0

    Section 3.2 Naive IPv6 Model=

    -=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CBIER is integr= ated into the IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D is not precise, could be considered = to modify as =E2=80=9CBIER header integrated into the IPv6 header=E2=80=9D<= u>

    [New Version] Similar expressions are main= tained in this version, including:

    =E2=80=9C=C2=A0=C2=A0 The second conceptua= l model is an Integrated Model that integrates

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 BIER as part of the IPv6 data= plane, making it a "Layer-3 BIER"

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 approach.=E2=80=9D<= /u>

    =E2=80=9CIn this model, BIER works as part= of the IPv6 data plane.=E2=80=9D

    This has been discussed among the authors.= If we take it narrowly, =E2=80=9CIPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D may mean to look= up IP routing table and find the next hop, in which case, BIER could not be treated as part of it; while if we take it broadly, =E2= =80=9CIPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D may include all the forwarding behavior happ= ening in IPv6 layer including parsing extension headers, in which case, BIE= R could be treated as part of it.

    =C2=A0

    2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Comments from Sandy Zhang:

    Section 2 problem statement<= /u>

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Not only non-BFR node scenario should be included

    [New version] It has been covered in the n= ew version by

    =E2=80=9CIt may

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 also be desirable to not use = IPv6 encapsulation except when IPv6

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 tunneling (native or GRE/UDP-= like) is used to transport BIER packets

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 over BIER-incapable routers.= =E2=80=9D

    =C2=A0

    Section 3.1

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 There is no fragmentation or IPSEC executed in BFR

    [New Version]

    An example has been added in section 4.2.1= to clarify the case and fix the comments.

    =C2=A0

    Section 3.2

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Fast forwarding could not be supported if using IPv6 extension= header

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 How to deal with the relationship with other extension header,= e.g., fragmentation header

    [New version]

    This will be defined in the solution docum= ent rather than the requirement document.

    =C2=A0

    3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Comments from Jeffrey Zhang:

    Section 2=C2=A0 Problem Stateme= nt -> Request to remove/modify the descriptions that may be considered b= iased:

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Inter-domain is not model specific. Reference to individual dr= aft should be removed.

    [New version]

    Descriptions about Inter-domain has been r= emoved.

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 The descriptions of fragmentation is not reasonable because fr= agmentation/reassembly does not happen on each BFR when it is connected dir= ectly with another BFR.

    [New version]

    Descriptions about fragmentation in sectio= n 3 has been removed.

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 IPv6 native functions should not be requested by Layer2.5 tunn= eling, which could be executed in IPv6 layer.

    [New version]

    Descriptions about other IPv6 functions in= section 3 have been removed.

    Section 4.1.6=C2=A0 Simple Enca= psulation-> Unclear requirement item

    [New version]

    This requirement has been removed.<= u>

    =C2=A0

    4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Comments from Alvaro Retana

    Section 2<= /p>

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Problem Statement should be straight forward

    [New version]

    Problem Statement has been modified totall= y with help of Gyan and Jeffrey.

    =C2=A0

    Section 3

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the laye= ring model from rfc8279

    [New version]

    The layering of BIER defined in RFC8279 is= not the same as it has been discussed in section 3, where layer 3/layer 2.= 5 means protocol layering of TCP/IP.

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 It seems that there is some Bias for native IPv6 Model<= u>

    [New version]

    Section 3.1.=C2=A0 Independent Model has b= een well modified by Jeffrey as the one of the main authors of the document= of BIERin6.

    =C2=A0

    Section 4<= /p>

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Three levels: required, recommended, and optional

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Some mandatory requirements need no explanation, including: Su= pport BIER architecture; Conform to existing IPv6 Spec; Support deployment = with Non-BFR routers)

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Some of the requirements are not clear, e.g., L2 Agnostic, Sup= port Simple Encapsulation, Support Deployment Security=

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Some of the requirements are not included in RFC8279, e.g., Su= pport inter-AS multicast deployment

    [New version]

    All the requirement items have been reorga= nized. Well known requirement is kept simple and optional requirement is ju= stified with example.

    <= u>=C2=A0

    <= u>=C2=A0

    <= u>=C2=A0

    -= ----Original Message-----
    From: Greg Shepherd [mailto:gjshep@gmail.com]
    Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 10:44 PM
    To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
    Cc: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>; Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com&g= t;; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retan= a <aretana.i= etf@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions

    <= u>=C2=A0

    T= he authors were ask to remove the comparison section. I'm asking you ag= ain. I'll wait for the next rev to comment.

    <= u>=C2=A0

    T= hanks,

    G= reg

    <= u>=C2=A0

    O= n Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:44 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>

    w= rote:

    <= u>=C2=A0

    &= gt; Hi Gyan,

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; A small clarification =E2=80=93 while the re= quirements draft -07 currently

    &= gt; does have sections that briefly describe different models/solutions,

    &= gt; we have avoided discussing which one satisfies which requirements

    &= gt; intentionally (as the focus is on listing requirements).<= /span>

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; With that, I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99<= /span>ve got a conclusion that =E2=80=9CBIER-MPLS &

    &= gt; BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to

    &= gt; support

    &= gt; SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane=E2=80= =9D.

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; Jeffrey

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; Juniper Business Use Only

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; *From:* Gyan Mishra <hayabusag= sm@gmail.com>

    &= gt; *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM

    &= gt; *To:* Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.c= om>

    &= gt; *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>;

    &= gt; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-= requirements@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org;

    &= gt; bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana &= lt;aretana.ietf@gmail.com>

    &= gt; *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; *[External Email. Be cautious of content]*

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; Greg

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism

    &= gt; and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response,

    &= gt; there seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had

    &= gt; over the last several months.=C2=A0 Understandably, all of us here in t= he

    &= gt; WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and

    &= gt; that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap = in

    &= gt; being able to support

    &= gt; SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane,

    &= gt; which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS.=C2=A0 It is crit= ical

    &= gt; that the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data

    &= gt; plane for

    &= gt; SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a

    &= gt; technology graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes.=C2=A0 We the

    &= gt; authors are all in agreement and running fast after that goal and

    &= gt; understand the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft.= =C2=A0 We

    &= gt; are with you lock, stock and barrel.

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft

    &= gt; =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-0= 8= =E2=80=9D, BIERv6, referred to as the

    &= gt; =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myself, McBride, Xuesong & Jingrong=C2=A0

    &= gt; collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors

    &= gt; of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft =E2=80= =9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D,

    &= gt; BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey &

    &= gt; Sandy to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual models

    &= gt; accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements

    &= gt; to support IPv6 for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We wanted to make sure that we = had

    &= gt; complete parity between conceptual models and relationships to the

    &= gt; problem statement and requirements list.=C2=A0 All authors from both

    &= gt; solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our = =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s= = =E2=80=9D dotted &

    &= gt; =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D crossed so to speak, putting our best foot forward with this rev 7.=

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt;=C2=A0

    &= gt; I would like to point out that given the = =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D BIERv6

    &= gt; Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the = =E2=80=9CIndependent model=E2=80=9D

    &= gt; BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017.=C2=A0 It is only since Janua= ry

    &= gt; 2019 initial draft submission has the work to reverse engineer to come

    &= gt; up with the Requirements draft started a = =E2=80=9Cpost mortem=E2=80=9D so to speak

    &= gt; after the Solutions had already been proposed.=C2=A0 To that end in

    &= gt; IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to

    &= gt; Section 3 conceptual framework for the two solutions proposed.=C2=A0 We= are

    &= gt; all at a loss in understanding your comments as to removal of section

    &= gt; 3.=C2=A0 In order to create a requirements draft as part of any basic

    &= gt; requirements analysis, you must have some idea or concept or inkling

    &= gt; of a solutions framework to graft & glean the list of requirements = which otherwise is not possible in my mind

    --0000000000003b8fec05b0244ed2-- From nobody Fri Sep 25 10:09:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A2523A100F; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:09:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jHOY7yAkZOdD; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x92c.google.com (mail-ua1-x92c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 633163A100D; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x92c.google.com with SMTP id f15so1159621uaq.9; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oBPPRuFj0ThgirvJEdtLQGc7Yz5Hy4O4oaeViZZKTKs=; b=XG6zv0etcqMjGztEIBJSUvJ0ROg7y76nilf1bQ/n+Q8vP94ubenLoa4zBLDb+580da QZ51sd3lp8ulmudT14QkrZI7Qg4Ms7mh1Hul0n1bFiffHI7P0voBNGFsg84+40AReiIp KsHMi/DpROfCQzKpEXdpNpiQ1jOB1/Y+RO9lQzRvqtTOLoyUAHz4fUtRxQMO87tcRmig Sk747Ld13UVA9Fm/JpgOJQUdGfFB+ehw3s5fB/JBZ9U0jLvn1TgI78nmxTJj7Ci+JUG2 dcyEIKnAQzSMLLHhT/ADZY5yWzVfHwCgD1VOyglwfHaruDBWBVK5kqiBciS2QMdTVeLr NwNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oBPPRuFj0ThgirvJEdtLQGc7Yz5Hy4O4oaeViZZKTKs=; b=CzTPqqKGdaiYPjDQt69FLKDID1vHdUZiwLrOoEN7kXm/iObiiAOD5dy4IAdFwr+dxc NTKg949GzB2UTjvNTq1ucJa3mM6pg9Hodut+TjjZ+e5FyBLfTpZrEyce6JAas1Qu7jTj kxrFVBitT8UbHmwa2IqhpAL9s5N2Fq+cYIhOt/FWWMuR5EM5g456dts8y+1bq7RXAj9k dRK15HHMbZGc+SLSYEqyZyDWFj1qpjzoDEz4PVlo9KOrqsA0CYX8BC0rXLK7Gld0z38R fTRLka4Gd78M4PVVbO+ojjf8oETOBPG0wcsojWBd61fw6Iiy/swIB6M5FEELsmDuRWmj 0LYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532JT+itPbi9jOfAMjQNB6sGplW4vom+SoRg+/I0+8BjxspdaHS9 x01NjgGLaXQO7j1auZjvhHpj5gD/5nCh++AV+1E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJznU7EwNqfjx3AoN2ONnH8/4L01KJpkDGkgFu9nWYzeDRZpCedxYOa8aDWVo2ECfEhdnx/3DLPE7MplFK1n8d0= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:4e25:: with SMTP id g37mr755747uah.106.1601053745170; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:09:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0577c1902546498d84af1f705dac6c21@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 13:08:54 -0400 Message-ID: To: gjshep@gmail.com Cc: Alvaro Retana , "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf4dcd05b0265f95" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 17:09:09 -0000 --000000000000bf4dcd05b0265f95 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg In-line On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 10:41 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > Xuesong, > > Inline: > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:09 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) < > gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Just one more comment: Any WG feedback is welcome. All the previous >> comments are carefully considered and discussed among authors[*]. If the= re >> is something >> >> new, raise it up with implementable operations and it will be addressed. >> (Unless I'm missing something, section 3 hasn=E2=80=99t been asked to be= removed or >> even considered inappropriate until version 07 was published in my >> knowledge) >> > > There was no 'solution comparison' section in rev 0. It appeared in rev1, > and at the end of the doc. Since then that section has been carefully > word-smithed to direct the conversation about the requirements themselves= . > It was removed in rev 4 at the request of the WG. Then it reappeared in r= ev > 6 - without any WG request - and promoted to the top of the document, no > longer hiding the authors intent of leading the conversation on > requirements. So yes, nobody asked to remove it since rev 4 since it was = no > longer there. As soon as it reappeared, the authors were asked to remove > it. Nothing new here except the authors' increasing pressure to resist > input from the WG. > > Please remove that section rev the draft. There is nothing more to discus= s > until then. > > Thanks, > - Chairs > (Shep) > > I just went through all the versions to see where section 3 is added or omitted below: Rev 0 - omitted Rev 1 - omitted Rev 2 and 3 - appears in 5.4 5.5 I think that is what you ar talking about word smithing .. Rev 4 omitted Rev 5-7 - added back Rev 8 - moved to appendix Based on the above we will remove section 3 from the appendix. Since the solutions drafts themselves speak for the solutions in detail I think we can focus strictly on the requirements in this draft as Greg, Tony and Alvaro stated. Greg - I was not aware of the details history of what transpired early this year with the few revisions prior to me joining as author. I will work with the team to right the ship remain steadfast on the requirements. Thanks Gyan >> >> Xuesong >> >> >> >> >> >> [*]Here are all the comments we have received from WG since IETF 108 >> (most recent comments not inluded). Here are some explanations about how= we >> address/consider >> >> these comments in version 07. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Comments from Greg Shepherd >> >> >> Section 2 Problem Statement >> >> >> - =E2=80=9CIPv6 unicast technologies can support multi-point tran= sport=E2=80=9D >> seems not clear >> >> >> [New Version] This sentence has been removed >> >> >> >> >> >> Section 3.2 Naive IPv6 Model >> >> >> - =E2=80=9CBIER is integrated into the IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D is not = precise, could be >> considered to modify as =E2=80=9CBIER header integrated into the IPv6 he= ader=E2=80=9D >> >> >> [New Version] Similar expressions are maintained in this version, >> including: >> >> >> =E2=80=9C The second conceptual model is an Integrated Model that inte= grates >> >> >> BIER as part of the IPv6 data plane, making it a "Layer-3 BIER" >> >> >> approach.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> =E2=80=9CIn this model, BIER works as part of the IPv6 data plane.=E2=80= =9D >> >> >> This has been discussed among the authors. If we take it narrowly, =E2= =80=9CIPv6 >> data plane=E2=80=9D may mean to look up IP routing table and find the ne= xt hop, in >> which case, >> >> BIER could not be treated as part of it; while if we take it broadly, >> =E2=80=9CIPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D may include all the forwarding behavio= r happening in IPv6 >> layer including parsing extension headers, in which case, BIER could be >> treated as part of it. >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. Comments from Sandy Zhang: >> >> >> Section 2 problem statement >> >> >> - Not only non-BFR node scenario should be included >> >> >> [New version] It has been covered in the new version by >> >> >> >> =E2=80=9CIt may >> >> >> also be desirable to not use IPv6 encapsulation except when IPv6 >> >> >> tunneling (native or GRE/UDP-like) is used to transport BIER packets >> >> >> over BIER-incapable routers.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> >> >> >> Section 3.1 >> >> >> - There is no fragmentation or IPSEC executed in BFR >> >> >> [New Version] >> >> >> An example has been added in section 4.2.1 to clarify the case and fix >> the comments. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Section 3.2 >> >> >> - Fast forwarding could not be supported if using IPv6 extension >> header >> >> >> - How to deal with the relationship with other extension header, >> e.g., fragmentation header >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> This will be defined in the solution document rather than the requiremen= t >> document. >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. Comments from Jeffrey Zhang: >> >> >> Section 2 Problem Statement -> Request to remove/modify the description= s >> that may be considered biased: >> >> >> - Inter-domain is not model specific. Reference to individual >> draft should be removed. >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> Descriptions about Inter-domain has been removed. >> >> >> - The descriptions of fragmentation is not reasonable because >> fragmentation/reassembly does not happen on each BFR when it is connecte= d >> directly with >> >> another BFR. >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> Descriptions about fragmentation in section 3 has been removed. >> >> >> - IPv6 native functions should not be requested by Layer2.5 >> tunneling, which could be executed in IPv6 layer. >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> Descriptions about other IPv6 functions in section 3 have been removed. >> >> >> Section 4.1.6 Simple Encapsulation-> Unclear requirement item >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> This requirement has been removed. >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. Comments from Alvaro Retana >> >> >> Section 2 >> >> >> - Problem Statement should be straight forward >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> Problem Statement has been modified totally with help of Gyan and Jeffre= y. >> >> >> >> >> >> Section 3 >> >> >> >> - Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering >> model from rfc8279 >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> The layering of BIER defined in RFC8279 is not the same as it has been >> discussed in section 3, where layer 3/layer 2.5 means protocol layering = of >> TCP/IP. >> >> >> - It seems that there is some Bias for native IPv6 Model >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> Section 3.1. Independent Model has been well modified by Jeffrey as the >> one of the main authors of the document of BIERin6. >> >> >> >> >> >> Section 4 >> >> >> - Three levels: required, recommended, and optional >> >> >> - Some mandatory requirements need no explanation, including: >> Support BIER architecture; Conform to existing IPv6 Spec; Support >> deployment with Non-BFR >> >> routers) >> >> >> - Some of the requirements are not clear, e.g., L2 Agnostic, >> Support Simple Encapsulation, Support Deployment Security >> >> >> - Some of the requirements are not included in RFC8279, e.g., >> Support inter-AS multicast deployment >> >> >> [New version] >> >> >> All the requirement items have been reorganized. Well known requirement >> is kept simple and optional requirement is justified with example. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Greg Shepherd [mailto:gjshep@gmail.com] >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 10:44 PM >> >> >> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >> >> >> Cc: Gyan Mishra ; Xiejingrong (Jingrong) < >> xiejingrong@huawei.com>; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; >> bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana < >> aretana.ietf@gmail.com> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions >> >> >> >> >> >> The authors were ask to remove the comparison section. I'm asking you >> again. I'll wait for the next rev to comment. >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:44 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang < >> zzhang@juniper.net> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hi Gyan, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > A small clarification =E2=80=93 while the requirements draft -07 curre= ntly >> >> >> >> > does have sections that briefly describe different models/solutions, >> >> >> >> > we have avoided discussing which one satisfies which requirements >> >> >> >> > intentionally (as the focus is on listing requirements). >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > With that, I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ve got a conclusion >> >> that =E2=80=9CBIER-MPLS & >> >> >> >> > BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to >> >> >> >> > support >> >> >> > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane=E2= =80=9D. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Jeffrey >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> >> >> > >> >> >> > *From:* Gyan Mishra >> >> >> > *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM >> >> >> > *To:* Greg Shepherd >> >> >> > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; >> >> >> >> > >> >> draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; >> >> bier-chairs@ietf.org; >> >> >> >> > bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana >> >> >> > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Greg >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism >> >> >> >> > and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, >> >> >> >> > there seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had >> >> >> >> > over the last several months. Understandably, all of us here in the >> >> >> >> > WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and >> >> >> >> > that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in >> >> >> >> > being able to support >> >> >> > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, >> >> >> >> > which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS. It is critical >> >> >> >> > that the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 data >> >> >> >> > plane for >> >> >> > SRv6 support. We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a >> >> >> >> > technology graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes. We the >> >> >> >> > authors are all in agreement and running fast after that goal and >> >> >> >> > understand the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft. We >> >> >> >> > are with you lock, stock and barrel. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft >> >> >> >> > =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2=80=9D, >> >> BIERv6, referred to as the >> >> >> > =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myself, McBride, >> >> Xuesong & Jingrong >> >> >> > collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the authors >> >> >> >> > of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft >> >> =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D, >> >> >> >> > BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & >> >> >> >> > Sandy to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual models >> >> >> >> > accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements >> >> >> >> > to support IPv6 for SRv6 support. We wanted to make sure that we had >> >> >> >> > complete parity between conceptual models and relationships to the >> >> >> >> > problem statement and requirements list. All authors from both >> >> >> >> > solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our >> >> =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D >> >> dotted & >> >> >> > =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D >> >> crossed so to speak, putting our best foot forward with this rev 7. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I would like to point out that given the >> >> =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D BIERv6 >> >> >> >> > Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the >> >> =E2=80=9CIndependent model=E2=80=9D >> >> >> > BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017. It is only since January >> >> >> >> > 2019 initial draft submission has the work to reverse engineer to come >> >> >> >> > up with the Requirements draft started a >> >> =E2=80=9Cpost mortem=E2=80=9D so to speak >> >> >> >> > after the Solutions had already been proposed. To that end in >> >> >> >> > IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to >> >> >> >> > Section 3 conceptual framework for the two solutions proposed. We are >> >> >> >> > all at a loss in understanding your comments as to removal of section >> >> >> >> > 3. In order to create a requirements draft as part of any basic >> >> >> >> > requirements analysis, you must have some idea or concept or inkling >> >> >> >> > of a solutions framework to graft & glean the list of requirements >> which otherwise is not possible in my mind >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --000000000000bf4dcd05b0265f95 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



    On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 10:= 09 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@= gmail.com> wrote:


    Hi = Greg=C2=A0

    In-line=C2=A0=

    On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 10:41 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
    Xu= esong,

    Inline:

    On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:09 PM Geng= xuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote:










    <= br>




    Just one more comment: Any WG feedback is welcome. All the= previous comments are carefully considered and discussed among authors[*].= If there is something

    new, raise it up with implementable operatio= ns and it will be addressed. (Unless I'm missing something, section 3 h= asn=E2=80=99t been asked to be removed or even considered inappropriate unt= il version 07 was published in my knowledge)


    There was no 'solution comparison' section= in rev 0. It appeared in rev1, and at the end of the doc. Since then that = section has been carefully word-smithed to direct the conversation=C2=A0abo= ut the requirements themselves. It was removed in rev 4 at the request of t= he WG. Then it reappeared in rev 6 - without any=C2=A0WG request - and prom= oted to the top of the document, no longer hiding the authors intent of lea= ding the conversation on requirements. So yes, nobody asked to remove it si= nce rev 4 since it was no longer there. As soon as it reappeared, the autho= rs were asked to remove it. Nothing new here except the authors' increa= sing pressure to resist input from the WG.

    Please = remove that section rev the draft. There is nothing more to discuss until t= hen.

    Thanks,
    - Chairs
    (Shep)= =C2=A0
    = =C2=A0

    I just went through all the versi= ons to see where section 3 is added or omitted below:

    Rev 0 - omitted=C2=A0
    Rev 1 - omitted=C2=A0
    Rev 2 and 3 - appears in 5.4 5.5 I think that is what you ar tal= king about word smithing ..
    Rev 4 omit= ted=C2=A0
    Rev 5-7 - added back=C2=A0
    Rev 8 - moved to appendix=C2=A0

    Based on the above we will =C2=A0remove= section 3 from the appendix.

    Since the solutions drafts themselves speak f= or the solutions in detail I think we can focus strictly on the requirement= s in this draft as Greg, Tony and Alvaro stated.

    Greg - =C2=A0I was not= aware of the details history of what transpired early this year with the f= ew revisions prior to me joining as author.=C2=A0 I will work with the team= to right the ship remain steadfast on the requirements.

    Thanks=C2=A0

    Gyan




    Xuesong=



    <= u>=C2=A0



    [*]Here are all the comments we have received from WG since IETF 108= (most recent comments not inluded). Here are some explanations about how w= e address/consider

    these comments in version 07.



    =C2=A0=



    1.=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Comments from Greg Shepherd

    Section 2 Problem Sta= tement



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIPv6 unicast t= echnologies can support multi-point transport=E2=80=9D seems not clear



    [New Version] = This sentence has been removed



    =C2=A0



    Section 3.2 Naive IPv6 Model=



    -=C2= =A0 =E2=80=9CBIER is integrated into the IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D is not pr= ecise, could be considered to modify as =E2=80=9CBIER header integrated int= o the IPv6 header=E2=80=9D



    [New Version] Similar expressions are maintained in this v= ersion, including:



    =E2=80=9C=C2=A0=C2=A0 The second conceptual model is an Integrated= Model that integrates



    =C2=A0=C2=A0 BIER as part of the IPv6 data plane, making it a = "Layer-3 BIER"



    =C2=A0=C2=A0 approach.=E2=80=9D


    =

    =E2=80=9CIn this model, BIER works as = part of the IPv6 data plane.=E2=80=9D



    This has been discussed among the authors. If w= e take it narrowly, =E2=80=9CIPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D may mean to look up I= P routing table and find the next hop, in which case,

    BIER could no= t be treated as part of it; while if we take it broadly, =E2=80=9CIPv6 data= plane=E2=80=9D may include all the forwarding behavior happening in IPv6 l= ayer including parsing extension headers, in which case, BIER could be trea= ted as part of it.



    =C2=A0



    2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Comments from = Sandy Zhang:



    Section 2 problem statement


    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Not only non-BFR node scenario should be included=



    [New version] It ha= s been covered in the new version by


    =E2=80=9CIt may

    =

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 also be desirable to = not use IPv6 encapsulation except when IPv6


    =C2=A0=C2=A0 tunneling (native or GRE/UDP= -like) is used to transport BIER packets



    =C2=A0=C2=A0 over BIER-incapable routers.= =E2=80=9D



    = =C2=A0



    Section 3.1



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There is n= o fragmentation or IPSEC executed in BFR



    [New Version]


    <= br>

    An example has been added in section 4.= 2.1 to clarify the case and fix the comments.

    <= /p>

    =C2=A0

    =

    Section 3.2



    -=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fast forwarding could not be supported if= using IPv6 extension header



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 H= ow to deal with the relationship with other extension header, e.g., fragmen= tation header



    [New version]



    This will be defined in the solution document rather than the requ= irement document.



    =C2=A0



    3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Comments from J= effrey Zhang:



    Section 2=C2=A0 Problem Statement -> Request to remove/m= odify the descriptions that may be considered biased:<= /p>

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Inter-domain is not model specific. Reference to i= ndividual draft should be removed.



    [New version]



    Descriptions about Inter-domain has been remov= ed.



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The descriptions of fragme= ntation is not reasonable because fragmentation/reassembly does not happen = on each BFR when it is connected directly with

    another BFR.<= u>



    = [New version]<= /u>



    Descriptions = about fragmentation in section 3 has been removed.

    =

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IPv6 native functions should not be requested by Laye= r2.5 tunneling, which could be executed in IPv6 layer.=



    [New version]



    Descriptions about other I= Pv6 functions in section 3 have been removed.


    <= br>

    Section 4.1.6=C2=A0 Simple E= ncapsulation-> Unclear requirement item



    =

    [New version]


    =

    This requirement has been removed.<= /u>



    =C2=A0



    4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Comments from Alvaro Retana



    <= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"line-height:150%;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Section= 2



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Problem Statement should be= straight forward



    [New version]



    Problem Statement has been modified totally with help of Gyan a= nd Jeffrey.



    =C2=A0



    Section 3



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tr= ansport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering model from= rfc8279



    [= New version]



    The layering of BIER defined in RFC8279 is not the same as it has been= discussed in section 3, where layer 3/layer 2.5 means protocol layering of= TCP/IP.



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It seems that there i= s some Bias for native IPv6 Model



    [New version]



    Section 3.1.=C2=A0 Independent Model has been = well modified by Jeffrey as the one of the main authors of the document of = BIERin6.



    =C2=A0



    Section 4



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 T= hree levels: required, recommended, and optional


    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some mandatory requirements need no explanation, includi= ng: Support BIER architecture; Conform to existing IPv6 Spec; Support deplo= yment with Non-BFR

    routers)



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Some of the requirements are not clear, e.g., L2 Agnostic, Support S= imple Encapsulation, Support Deployment Security


    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some of the requirements are not included in RFC8279, e.= g., Support inter-AS multicast deployment



    <= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%">[New version]


    <= br>

    All the requirement items have been reo= rganized. Well known requirement is kept simple and optional requirement is= justified with example.



    =C2=A0



    =C2=A0



    =C2=A0<= /u>



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Greg Shepherd [mailto:gjshep@gmail.com]


    Sent: Thursday, September= 24, 2020 10:44 PM


    To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>

    Cc: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>; Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.c= om>; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org; Alvaro= Retana <are= tana.ietf@gmail.com>


    Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requir= ements and Solutions



    =C2= =A0



    The authors were ask t= o remove the comparison section. I'm asking you again. I'll wait fo= r the next rev to comment.



    =C2=A0



    Than= ks,



    Greg<= /u>



    =C2=A0

    On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:44 AM Jeffrey (= Zhaohui) Zhang <= zzhang@juniper.net>



    wrote:=



    =C2=A0



    > Hi Gyan,



    >=C2=A0

    =

    >=C2=A0



    =

    >=C2=A0



    > A small clarification =E2=80=93 while the requirements draft -07 currently



    > does have sections that briefly d= escribe different models/solutions,


    > we have avoided discussing which one satisfie= s which requirements



    > intentionally (as the focus is on listing requirements).=



    >=C2=A0<= /u>



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0


    > With that, I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ve got a conclusi= on

    that     =E2=80=9CBIER-MPLS &

    =



    > BIER-Ethernet= , as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to

    =



    > support



    > SRv6 Service Provider core techno= logy requiring an IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D.



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0=



    >=C2=A0


    =

    > Jeffrey



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    &g= t;=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    > Juniper Busin= ess Use Only



    >=C2=A0



    > *From:* G= yan Mishra <<= span style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:windowtext">hayabusagsm@gmail.com<= /span>>



    >= *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM


    <= br>

    > *To:* Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>


    <= br>

    > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>;

    =



    >

    = draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-= requirements@ietf.org    ;

    bier-chairs@ietf.org;


    > bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana <aretana= .ietf@gmail.com>



    > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions=



    >=C2=A0<= u>



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0

    > *[External Email. Be cautious of cont= ent]*



    >= =C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    > Greg

    <= br>

    >=C2=A0



    <= p>>=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    > With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs crit= icism



    > = and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response,



    > there seems= to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had



    > over the last several mon= ths.=C2=A0 Understandably, all of us here in the



    > WG realize the criticality of th= e BIER in an IPv6 environment, and



    =

    > that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stan= ds today has a MAJOR gap in



    > being able to support


    > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiri= ng an IPv6 data plane,



    > which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS.=C2= =A0 It is critical



    > that the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an I= Pv6 data



    &g= t; plane for



    > S= Rv6 support.=C2=A0 We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a



    > technology = graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes.=C2=A0 We the

    <= u>



    > authors are all in ag= reement and running fast after that goal and



    > understand the AD & Chairs now e= mphasis on the requirements draft.=C2=A0 We



    > are with you lock, stock and barrel.<= u>



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0

    =

    > The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions= draft



    >= = =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2= =80=9D,

    BIERv6, referred to as the <= /u>



    > =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, au= thors myself, McBride,

    Xuesong & Jingrong=C2=A0 <= /span>



    > collaborated in a joint effo= rt over a month timeframe with the authors

    =

    > of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft

    draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D<= /span>,



    > BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , auth= ors Jeffrey &



    > Sandy to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual= models



    >= ; accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements



    > to suppo= rt IPv6 for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We wanted to make sure that we had

    <= u>



    > complete parit= y between conceptual models and relationships to the

    <= /span>



    > problem statement and requir= ements list.=C2=A0 All authors from both


    > solutions worked together to ensure we h= ad all of our

    =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D

    dotted &am= p;



    > =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D

    crossed so to speak, putting our best foo= t forward with this rev 7.



    >=C2=A0



    = >=C2=A0



    ><= /u>=C2=A0



    > I would lik= e to point out that given the

    =E2=80=9CIn= tegrated model=E2=80=9D BIERv6

    =



    > Solutions initial draft= came out in April 2018, and the

    =E2=80=9CIndependent model=E2=80=9D



    > BIERin6 Solution came out in Oct= ober 2017.=C2=A0 It is only since January

    <= br>

    > 2019 initial draft submission has the w= ork to reverse engineer to come



    = > up with the Requirements draft started a

    <= /span>= =E2=80=9Cpost mortem=E2=80=9D so to speak



    > after the Solutions had already been proposed.=C2=A0 To t= hat end in



    = > IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to



    > Section 3 c= onceptual framework for the two solutions proposed.=C2=A0 We are

    =



    > all at a loss in= understanding your comments as to removal of section

    =



    > 3.=C2=A0 In order to create= a requirements draft as part of any basic

    =

    > requirements analysis, you must have s= ome idea or concept or inkling



    <= span lang=3D"EN-US">> of a solutions framework to graft & glean the = list of requirements which otherwise is not possible in my mind











    --
    <= div dir=3D"ltr">


    Gyan Mishra

    Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

    M 301 502-1347
    13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
    Silver Spring= , MD


    --000000000000ff2a7205b02678eb-- From nobody Sat Sep 26 00:37:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E33B3A10F5; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 00:37:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mPvuIY18qbw; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 00:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x644.google.com (mail-ej1-x644.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::644]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 444693A0876; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 00:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x644.google.com with SMTP id r7so1599683ejs.11; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 00:37:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=3aWZd/Civ5JYajCsM+C/BnXWjuo4yCY59GBKUT72I3o=; b=KMa+KnVPFexK8gXyd8n4nKnw90AOHlbDwUZjmenGKkHNWClJynD1FbSxPvPf1FlLdj 7f2bMkp3dxbyDOr7x9zJSFAEOqqwLbdwRSWkbdLE9OAoX4QWaJebtDlf337VSan4SuIC FPJuSna6DF8rCUHElGaguqhkTm43GRdao0NwidWao8PS7/5a0TUoQqj12sXJneg/O0H0 wVoPWUpYHPrYAe+vV9EqjeDr2NvIqhZbIBxa+upQRihXgPaU0jejTtmDi+qfnmaELMDP o8pBahjjIts7KZ3U9LJvr5O4BX1/1rH22J2Or+afSfIsNGLkIo/km0GxNmnE6ZVDrMvT 4dCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=3aWZd/Civ5JYajCsM+C/BnXWjuo4yCY59GBKUT72I3o=; b=cz0l43htBSHz5CN/KFOhYQHgnF8F75EXrsMPsC48altW3330CvpMK0VX3zTZjkn1L3 ZXht8Qoj2mVGGNTq+fMDu+58bsPOKs8ZCv2R9zhiF4Rm0T1EtoM0Dct0RvJxUj8ssbRW R7GOLH8TnL3O4sqwuRZD3jg3Yo4xSZz3854UGZ55pg71mIjblcrC/pnczCe2SJCuIEbD LW2ZnGV64r7S0+2S36cKgQe2y2kHMwReC+OVQX58JlXnQegwrALUIdaoMz5/IO/cW4XV jwM8s0YPjSlCOv2621VyiG0fTtNzl162z1cxDRpDe14Def/xaigdzr2V1HlK9x+NEHXb eayQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Pe2YhmhqEDuxkUaBr4TsGyQgXgNaUu5PGFAFt/go6C+zRC5Tg sHxanqlAieBEZVBA7aDlPCeJY2w30+Aing== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw5rk/N3r+URo3GWVb76Q/WQIgV14IMBVDXMlffVLf+mYM44KCQ2wHoySgBfKx1IYGrTOxuvQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:9386:: with SMTP id l6mr6251412ejx.302.1601105828538; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 00:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.86] ([92.99.114.199]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y14sm3542724eje.10.2020.09.26.00.37.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 26 Sep 2020 00:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F86A8C23-C621-41A1-BC04-88EB1CAF309E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Andrew Dolganow Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 11:37:06 +0400 Message-Id: References: Cc: Greg Mirsky , BIER WG , BIER WG Chairs , Alvaro Retana , draft-ietf-bier-bar-ipa@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: gjshep@gmail.com X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17H35) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] The Document Shepherd Write-Uo X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 07:37:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail-F86A8C23-C621-41A1-BC04-88EB1CAF309E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree Andrew Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 25, 2020, at 6:24 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Thanks! Looks ready for IESG to me. What say you all? >=20 > - Shep >=20 >> On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:24 PM Greg Mirsky wrote= : >> Dear All, >> the first version of the Document Shepherd's Write-Up is ready for your r= eview. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Greg --Apple-Mail-F86A8C23-C621-41A1-BC04-88EB1CAF309E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree

    Andrew
    Sent from my iPhone

    On Sep 25, 2020, at 6:24 AM, Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.c= om> wrote:

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"gjshep@gmail.com" CC: "bier@ietf.org" , Gyan Mishra , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , Alvaro Retana , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions Thread-Index: AQHWbMW4dgfn6+MGUES/VrRb3l1J16ltbMgAgADZgYCACMREgIAARH4AgABTqICAAVN0gIAAPemAgALRX2A= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 01:45:16 +0000 Message-ID: <564aabbe008c4dd4a840ed323e98dbd7@huawei.com> References: <0577c1902546498d84af1f705dac6c21@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.242.209] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_564aabbe008c4dd4a840ed323e98dbd7huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" 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From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <160135897929.11422.10264130821134725490@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 22:56:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 05:56:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : BIER IPv6 Requirements Authors : Mike McBride Jingrong Xie Xuesong Geng Senthil Dhanaraj Rajiv Asati Yongqing Zhu Gyan Mishra Zhaohui Zhang Filename : draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2020-09-28 Abstract: There have been several proposed solutions with BIER being used in IPv6. But there hasn't been a document which describes the problem and lists the requirements. The goal of this document is to describe the general BIER IPv6 encapsulation problem and detail solution requirements, thereby assisting the working group in the development of acceptable solutions. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
    Hi Greg=C2=A0<= /div>

    In-line=C2=A0
    =
    On Fri= , Sep 25, 2020 at 10:41 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
    Xuesong,

    Inline:

    On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at= 8:09 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote:
















    Jus= t one more comment: Any WG feedback is welcome. All the previous comments a= re carefully considered and discussed among authors[*]. If there is somethi= ng

    new, raise it up with implementable operations and it will be ad= dressed. (Unless I'm missing something, section 3 hasn=E2=80=99t been a= sked to be removed or even considered inappropriate until version 07 was pu= blished in my knowledge)


    =
    There was no 'solution comparison' section in rev 0. It appear= ed in rev1, and at the end of the doc. Since then that section has been car= efully word-smithed to direct the conversation=C2=A0about the requirements = themselves. It was removed in rev 4 at the request of the WG. Then it reapp= eared in rev 6 - without any=C2=A0WG request - and promoted to the top of t= he document, no longer hiding the authors intent of leading the conversatio= n on requirements. So yes, nobody asked to remove it since rev 4 since it w= as no longer there. As soon as it reappeared, the authors were asked to rem= ove it. Nothing new here except the authors' increasing pressure to res= ist input from the WG.

    Please remove that section = rev the draft. There is nothing more to discuss until then.

    <= /div>
    Thanks,
    - Chairs
    (Shep)=C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =

    I just went through all the versions to see where section 3= is added or omitted below:

    Rev 0 - omitted=C2=A0
    Rev 1 - omitted=C2=A0
    Rev 2 and 3 - a= ppears in 5.4 5.5 I think that is what you ar talking about word smithing .= .
    Rev 4 omitted=C2=A0
    Rev 5-7 - added back=C2=A0
    Rev 8 - moved to appendix=C2=A0

    Based on the above we will =C2=A0remove section 3 from the append= ix.

    Since the solutions drafts themselves speak for the solutions in detail= I think we can focus strictly on the requirements in this draft as Greg, T= ony and Alvaro stated.

    Greg - =C2=A0I was not aware of the details hist= ory of what transpired early this year with the few revisions prior to me j= oining as author.=C2=A0 I will work with the team to right the ship remain = steadfast on the requirements.

    Thanks=C2=A0

    Gyan



    Xuesong



    =C2=A0=



    [*]Here = are all the comments we have received from WG since IETF 108 (most recent c= omments not inluded). Here are some explanations about how we address/consi= der

    these comments in version 07.



    =

    =C2=A0

    =

    1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 Comments from Greg Shepherd



    Section 2 Problem Statement



    <= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"line-height:150%;color:rgb(31,73,125)">-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIPv6 unicast technologies can= support multi-point transport=E2=80=9D seems not clear



    [New Version] This sentence= has been removed



    =C2=A0



    Section 3.2 Naive IPv6 Model



    -=C2=A0 =E2=80= =9CBIER is integrated into the IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D is not precise, cou= ld be considered to modify as =E2=80=9CBIER header integrated into the IPv6= header=E2=80=9D



    [New Version] Similar expressions are maintained in this version, in= cluding:



    = =E2=80=9C=C2=A0=C2=A0 The second conceptual model is an Integrated Model th= at integrates



    =C2=A0=C2=A0 BIER as part of the IPv6 data plane, making it a "La= yer-3 BIER"



    =C2=A0=C2=A0 approach.=E2=80=9D



    =E2=80=9CIn this model, BIER works as part of = the IPv6 data plane.=E2=80=9D



    This has been discussed among the authors. If we take i= t narrowly, =E2=80=9CIPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D may mean to look up IP routin= g table and find the next hop, in which case,

    BIER could not be tre= ated as part of it; while if we take it broadly, =E2=80=9CIPv6 data plane= =E2=80=9D may include all the forwarding behavior happening in IPv6 layer i= ncluding parsing extension headers, in which case, BIER could be treated as= part of it.



    =C2=A0



    2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Comments from Sand= y Zhang:



    Section 2 problem statement



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 Not only non-BFR node scenario should be included



    [New version] It has been= covered in the new version by



    =E2=80=9CIt may


    =C2=A0=C2=A0 also be desirable to not us= e IPv6 encapsulation except when IPv6



    =C2=A0=C2=A0 tunneling (native or GRE/UDP-like)= is used to transport BIER packets



    =C2=A0=C2=A0 over BIER-incapable routers.=E2=80=9D=



    = =C2=A0



    Section 3.1



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There is no fra= gmentation or IPSEC executed in BFR



    [New Version]



    An example has been added in section 4.2.1 = to clarify the case and fix the comments.

    <= br>

    =C2=A0


    =

    Section 3.2



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fast forwarding could not be supported if us= ing IPv6 extension header



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 How = to deal with the relationship with other extension header, e.g., fragmentat= ion header



    [New version]



    This will be defined in the solution document rather than the requirem= ent document.



    =C2=A0



    3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Comments from Jeff= rey Zhang:



    Section 2=C2=A0 Problem Statement -> Request to remove/modif= y the descriptions that may be considered biased:

    <= br>

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Inter-domain is not model specific. Reference to indi= vidual draft should be removed.



    [New version]



    Descriptions about Inter-domain has been removed.=



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The descriptions of fragmenta= tion is not reasonable because fragmentation/reassembly does not happen on = each BFR when it is connected directly with

    another BFR.<= /u>



    [New version]=



    Descriptions abo= ut fragmentation in section 3 has been removed.


    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IPv6 native functions should not be requested by Layer2.= 5 tunneling, which could be executed in IPv6 layer.

    [New version]



    Descriptions about other IP= v6 functions in section 3 have been removed.


    Section 4.1.6=C2=A0 Simple En= capsulation-> Unclear requirement item



    <= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%">[New version]


    <= br>

    This requirement has been removed.



    = =C2=A0



    4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Comments from Alvaro Retana=



    Section = 2



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Problem Statement should be = straight forward



    [New version]



    Problem Statement has been modified totally with help of Gyan an= d Jeffrey.



    =C2=A0



    Section 3



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tra= nsport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering model from = rfc8279



    [N= ew version]



    The layering of BIER defined in RFC8279 is not the same as it has been di= scussed in section 3, where layer 3/layer 2.5 means protocol layering of TC= P/IP.



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It seems that there is s= ome Bias for native IPv6 Model



    [New version]



    Section 3.1.=C2=A0 Independent Model has been well= modified by Jeffrey as the one of the main authors of the document of BIER= in6.



    =C2=A0



    Section 4



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thre= e levels: required, recommended, and optional


    <= br>

    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some mandatory requirements need no explanation, including:= Support BIER architecture; Conform to existing IPv6 Spec; Support deployme= nt with Non-BFR

    routers)



    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Some of the requirements are not clear, e.g., L2 Agnostic, Support S= imple Encapsulation, Support Deployment Security


    -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some of the requirements are not included in RFC8279, e.= g., Support inter-AS multicast deployment



    <= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:150%">[New version]


    <= br>

    All the requirement items have been reo= rganized. Well known requirement is kept simple and optional requirement is= justified with example.



    =C2=A0



    =C2=A0



    =C2=A0<= /u>



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Greg Shepherd [mailto:gjshep@gmail.com]


    Sent: Thursday, September= 24, 2020 10:44 PM


    To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>

    Cc: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>; Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.c= om>; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; bier-chairs@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:bier@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bier@ietf.org; Alvaro= Retana <are= tana.ietf@gmail.com>


    Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requir= ements and Solutions



    =C2= =A0



    The authors were ask t= o remove the comparison section. I'm asking you again. I'll wait fo= r the next rev to comment.



    =C2=A0



    Than= ks,



    Greg<= /u>



    =C2=A0

    On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:44 AM Jeffrey (= Zhaohui) Zhang <= zzhang@juniper.net>



    wrote:=



    =C2=A0



    > Hi Gyan,



    >=C2=A0

    =

    >=C2=A0



    =

    >=C2=A0



    > A small clarification =E2=80=93 while the requirements draft -07 currently



    > does have sections that briefly d= escribe different models/solutions,


    > we have avoided discussing which one satisfie= s which requirements



    > intentionally (as the focus is on listing requirements).=



    >=C2=A0<= /u>



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0


    > With that, I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ve got a conclusi= on

    that     =E2=80=9CBIER-MPLS &

    =



    > BIER-Ethernet= , as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to

    =



    > support



    > SRv6 Service Provider core techno= logy requiring an IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D.



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0=



    >=C2=A0


    =

    > Jeffrey



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    &g= t;=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    > Juniper Busin= ess Use Only



    >=C2=A0



    > *From:* G= yan Mishra <<= span style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:windowtext">hayabusagsm@gmail.com<= /span>>



    >= *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM


    <= br>

    > *To:* Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>


    <= br>

    > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>;

    =



    >

    = draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-= requirements@ietf.org    ;

    bier-chairs@ietf.org;


    > bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana <aretana= .ietf@gmail.com>



    > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions=



    >=C2=A0<= u>



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0

    > *[External Email. Be cautious of cont= ent]*



    >= =C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    > Greg

    <= br>

    >=C2=A0



    <= p>>=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    > With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs crit= icism



    > = and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response,



    > there seems= to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had



    > over the last several mon= ths.=C2=A0 Understandably, all of us here in the



    > WG realize the criticality of th= e BIER in an IPv6 environment, and



    =

    > that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stan= ds today has a MAJOR gap in



    > being able to support


    > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiri= ng an IPv6 data plane,



    > which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS.=C2= =A0 It is critical



    > that the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an I= Pv6 data



    &g= t; plane for



    > S= Rv6 support.=C2=A0 We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a



    > technology = graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes.=C2=A0 We the

    <= u>



    > authors are all in ag= reement and running fast after that goal and



    > understand the AD & Chairs now e= mphasis on the requirements draft.=C2=A0 We



    > are with you lock, stock and barrel.<= u>



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0



    >=C2=A0

    =

    > The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions= draft



    >= = =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2= =80=9D,

    BIERv6, referred to as the <= /u>



    > =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, au= thors myself, McBride,

    Xuesong & Jingrong=C2=A0 <= /span>



    > collaborated in a joint effo= rt over a month timeframe with the authors

    =

    > of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft

    draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D<= /span>,



    > BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , auth= ors Jeffrey &



    > Sandy to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual= models



    >= ; accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirements



    > to suppo= rt IPv6 for SRv6 support.=C2=A0 We wanted to make sure that we had

    <= u>



    > complete parit= y between conceptual models and relationships to the

    <= /span>



    > problem statement and requir= ements list.=C2=A0 All authors from both


    > solutions worked together to ensure we h= ad all of our

    =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D

    dotted &am= p;



    > =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D

    crossed so to speak, putting our best foo= t forward with this rev 7.



    >=C2=A0



    = >=C2=A0



    ><= /u>=C2=A0



    > I would lik= e to point out that given the

    =E2=80=9CIn= tegrated model=E2=80=9D BIERv6

    =



    > Solutions initial draft= came out in April 2018, and the

    =E2=80=9CIndependent model=E2=80=9D



    > BIERin6 Solution came out in Oct= ober 2017.=C2=A0 It is only since January

    <= br>

    > 2019 initial draft submission has the w= ork to reverse engineer to come



    = > up with the Requirements draft started a

    <= /span>= =E2=80=9Cpost mortem=E2=80=9D so to speak



    > after the Solutions had already been proposed.=C2=A0 To t= hat end in



    = > IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to



    > Section 3 c= onceptual framework for the two solutions proposed.=C2=A0 We are

    =



    > all at a loss in= understanding your comments as to removal of section

    =



    > 3.=C2=A0 In order to create= a requirements draft as part of any basic

    =

    > requirements analysis, you must have s= ome idea or concept or inkling



    <= span lang=3D"EN-US">> of a solutions framework to graft & glean the = list of requirements which otherwise is not possible in my mind











    --


    Gyan Mishra

    = Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

    M 301 502-1347<= br>13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
    Silver Spring, MD

    =
    --000000000000bf4dcd05b0265f95-- From nobody Fri Sep 25 10:16:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FE23A102D; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 234rFkNIJzQa; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x634.google.com (mail-ej1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55AF83A101E; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x634.google.com with SMTP id p15so4048136ejm.7; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:16:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=JfH+l4r0q6fX53sW9jKNxxwG6nCUwpECfWMRcASWPqU=; b=N8OzuR14Z1DKDN9SWo9eYt/Au6+pw/fGt879UlAFJM2vuvmLW+O3gXqTeR4IF3i1Df fAGAhJRgC4VQ2eD3xu57YU9iydR89gMfH3MtMn1b7RgjfTEaaXVjFCkKfTrlCtK5DTGe E0wLcNK1OaFEbpU3punSu5q1WIqtbxuurZ37Mc+rOZXgD5ltGLfuldPwHbzY2r3QObYi FXp0062qYtZhCWErsxi9MqenoAk2T8eu+w4PTKCS1O3u2cFw5NiuXLFfn8oMbvBZZGFf F7fxzokMgXA5xJURyXELA9PJoIe1YOimxAMQOr7m71uFCf4K6NHLFPNJU4AM7eYssAkG Sk2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JfH+l4r0q6fX53sW9jKNxxwG6nCUwpECfWMRcASWPqU=; b=CClFSQowwR8PUfND0SEo8uKUstvGvphRgfeoA/My1DP6A+jOXueISJR0ahr6oQFizm qvWFTn6BRKehI1sy7lx21VRD5wqkRELdJIO6GZMSZPLEXThjhCrrCnOBwDGqYMFHiBgG ZBvuocThAQEKCdl8akl70oTP4i3j6ypO/LrgDf/l1lFvfF4gJo4ALsHMNXTJrHhIgOfB 8SQrUylZBQXyBO0BkwaYtDU04UMUV96YpUet665pzgPxitRJUhnvSb7qaFG/PcqDngyF 0jycF2pnz1AdKqHb44bUIHK13AYylwj1qcSHE2tL7aQC+asqIVlLbcq5DetRqiEtqQuZ YXHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5328nmQJxQQpyA27jBDrX5pQDUNWTwBjK1fAhAE9xc+/y13ONIBH 7wPBBhOMC0R5yGAPRH1ro1ULwnGDNrCPf1w8OR0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzikK9pHtnWzFkqi26T4JgHUskclX0Ag91WNEPdsqljb0HRfr290N1Beb0KvdP38QAbfMu7x6Oh3a4inNjPztM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:594c:: with SMTP id g12mr3826137ejr.347.1601054168785; Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:16:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0577c1902546498d84af1f705dac6c21@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:15:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Gyan Mishra Cc: Alvaro Retana , "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier-chairs@ietf.org" , "bier@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ff2a7205b02678eb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 17:16:15 -0000 --000000000000ff2a7205b02678eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Gyan. I'll wait the new rev. Cheers, Greg (Chairs) On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 10:09 AM Gyan Mishra wrote: > > > Hi Greg > > In-line > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 10:41 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > >> Xuesong, >> >> Inline: >> >> On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:09 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) < >> gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Just one more comment: Any WG feedback is welcome. All the previous >>> comments are carefully considered and discussed among authors[*]. If th= ere >>> is something >>> >>> new, raise it up with implementable operations and it will be addressed= . >>> (Unless I'm missing something, section 3 hasn=E2=80=99t been asked to b= e removed or >>> even considered inappropriate until version 07 was published in my >>> knowledge) >>> >> >> There was no 'solution comparison' section in rev 0. It appeared in rev1= , >> and at the end of the doc. Since then that section has been carefully >> word-smithed to direct the conversation about the requirements themselve= s. >> It was removed in rev 4 at the request of the WG. Then it reappeared in = rev >> 6 - without any WG request - and promoted to the top of the document, no >> longer hiding the authors intent of leading the conversation on >> requirements. So yes, nobody asked to remove it since rev 4 since it was= no >> longer there. As soon as it reappeared, the authors were asked to remove >> it. Nothing new here except the authors' increasing pressure to resist >> input from the WG. >> >> Please remove that section rev the draft. There is nothing more to >> discuss until then. >> >> Thanks, >> - Chairs >> (Shep) >> >> > > I just went through all the versions to see where section 3 is added or > omitted below: > > Rev 0 - omitted > Rev 1 - omitted > Rev 2 and 3 - appears in 5.4 5.5 I think that is what you ar talking abou= t > word smithing .. > Rev 4 omitted > Rev 5-7 - added back > Rev 8 - moved to appendix > > Based on the above we will remove section 3 from the appendix. > > Since the solutions drafts themselves speak for the solutions in detail I > think we can focus strictly on the requirements in this draft as Greg, To= ny > and Alvaro stated. > > Greg - I was not aware of the details history of what transpired early > this year with the few revisions prior to me joining as author. I will > work with the team to right the ship remain steadfast on the requirements= . > > Thanks > > Gyan > > > >>> >>> Xuesong >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [*]Here are all the comments we have received from WG since IETF 108 >>> (most recent comments not inluded). Here are some explanations about ho= w we >>> address/consider >>> >>> these comments in version 07. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Comments from Greg Shepherd >>> >>> >>> Section 2 Problem Statement >>> >>> >>> - =E2=80=9CIPv6 unicast technologies can support multi-point tra= nsport=E2=80=9D >>> seems not clear >>> >>> >>> [New Version] This sentence has been removed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Section 3.2 Naive IPv6 Model >>> >>> >>> - =E2=80=9CBIER is integrated into the IPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D is not= precise, could >>> be considered to modify as =E2=80=9CBIER header integrated into the IPv= 6 header=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >>> [New Version] Similar expressions are maintained in this version, >>> including: >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=9C The second conceptual model is an Integrated Model that int= egrates >>> >>> >>> BIER as part of the IPv6 data plane, making it a "Layer-3 BIER" >>> >>> >>> approach.=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=9CIn this model, BIER works as part of the IPv6 data plane.=E2= =80=9D >>> >>> >>> This has been discussed among the authors. If we take it narrowly, =E2= =80=9CIPv6 >>> data plane=E2=80=9D may mean to look up IP routing table and find the n= ext hop, in >>> which case, >>> >>> BIER could not be treated as part of it; while if we take it broadly, >>> =E2=80=9CIPv6 data plane=E2=80=9D may include all the forwarding behavi= or happening in IPv6 >>> layer including parsing extension headers, in which case, BIER could be >>> treated as part of it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2. Comments from Sandy Zhang: >>> >>> >>> Section 2 problem statement >>> >>> >>> - Not only non-BFR node scenario should be included >>> >>> >>> [New version] It has been covered in the new version by >>> >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=9CIt may >>> >>> >>> also be desirable to not use IPv6 encapsulation except when IPv6 >>> >>> >>> tunneling (native or GRE/UDP-like) is used to transport BIER packets >>> >>> >>> over BIER-incapable routers.=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Section 3.1 >>> >>> >>> - There is no fragmentation or IPSEC executed in BFR >>> >>> >>> [New Version] >>> >>> >>> An example has been added in section 4.2.1 to clarify the case and fix >>> the comments. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Section 3.2 >>> >>> >>> - Fast forwarding could not be supported if using IPv6 extension >>> header >>> >>> >>> - How to deal with the relationship with other extension header, >>> e.g., fragmentation header >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> This will be defined in the solution document rather than the >>> requirement document. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 3. Comments from Jeffrey Zhang: >>> >>> >>> Section 2 Problem Statement -> Request to remove/modify the >>> descriptions that may be considered biased: >>> >>> >>> - Inter-domain is not model specific. Reference to individual >>> draft should be removed. >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> Descriptions about Inter-domain has been removed. >>> >>> >>> - The descriptions of fragmentation is not reasonable because >>> fragmentation/reassembly does not happen on each BFR when it is connect= ed >>> directly with >>> >>> another BFR. >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> Descriptions about fragmentation in section 3 has been removed. >>> >>> >>> - IPv6 native functions should not be requested by Layer2.5 >>> tunneling, which could be executed in IPv6 layer. >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> Descriptions about other IPv6 functions in section 3 have been removed. >>> >>> >>> Section 4.1.6 Simple Encapsulation-> Unclear requirement item >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> This requirement has been removed. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 4. Comments from Alvaro Retana >>> >>> >>> Section 2 >>> >>> >>> - Problem Statement should be straight forward >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> Problem Statement has been modified totally with help of Gyan and >>> Jeffrey. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Section 3 >>> >>> >>> >>> - Transport-Independent Model" is not in line with the layering >>> model from rfc8279 >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> The layering of BIER defined in RFC8279 is not the same as it has been >>> discussed in section 3, where layer 3/layer 2.5 means protocol layering= of >>> TCP/IP. >>> >>> >>> - It seems that there is some Bias for native IPv6 Model >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> Section 3.1. Independent Model has been well modified by Jeffrey as th= e >>> one of the main authors of the document of BIERin6. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Section 4 >>> >>> >>> - Three levels: required, recommended, and optional >>> >>> >>> - Some mandatory requirements need no explanation, including: >>> Support BIER architecture; Conform to existing IPv6 Spec; Support >>> deployment with Non-BFR >>> >>> routers) >>> >>> >>> - Some of the requirements are not clear, e.g., L2 Agnostic, >>> Support Simple Encapsulation, Support Deployment Security >>> >>> >>> - Some of the requirements are not included in RFC8279, e.g., >>> Support inter-AS multicast deployment >>> >>> >>> [New version] >>> >>> >>> All the requirement items have been reorganized. Well known requirement >>> is kept simple and optional requirement is justified with example. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> >>> From: Greg Shepherd [mailto:gjshep@gmail.com] >>> >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 10:44 PM >>> >>> >>> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang >>> >>> >>> Cc: Gyan Mishra ; Xiejingrong (Jingrong) < >>> xiejingrong@huawei.com>; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; >>> bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana < >>> aretana.ietf@gmail.com> >>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The authors were ask to remove the comparison section. I'm asking you >>> again. I'll wait for the next rev to comment. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 2:44 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang < >>> zzhang@juniper.net> >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > Hi Gyan, >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > A small clarification =E2=80=93 while the requirements draft -07 curr= ently >>> >>> >>> >>> > does have sections that briefly describe different models/solutions, >>> >>> >>> >>> > we have avoided discussing which one satisfies which requirements >>> >>> >>> >>> > intentionally (as the focus is on listing requirements). >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > With that, I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99ve got a conclusion >>> >>> that =E2=80=9CBIER-MPLS & >>> >>> >>> >>> > BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in being able to >>> >>> >>> >>> > support >>> >>> >>> > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane=E2= =80=9D. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Jeffrey >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Juniper Business Use Only >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > *From:* Gyan Mishra >>> >>> >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:40 AM >>> >>> >>> > *To:* Greg Shepherd >>> >>> >>> > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org; >>> >>> bier-chairs@ietf.org; >>> >>> >>> >>> > bier@ietf.org; Alvaro Retana >>> >>> >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER/IPv6 Requirements and Solutions >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Greg >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > With all do respect, the authors welcome the AD and Chairs criticism >>> >>> >>> >>> > and any feedback, however in this particular case with your response, >>> >>> >>> >>> > there seems to be a disconnect with the ML discussions we have had >>> >>> >>> >>> > over the last several months. Understandably, all of us here in the >>> >>> >>> >>> > WG realize the criticality of the BIER in an IPv6 environment, and >>> >>> >>> >>> > that BIER-MPLS & BIER-Ethernet, as it stands today has a MAJOR gap in >>> >>> >>> >>> > being able to support >>> >>> >>> > SRv6 Service Provider core technology requiring an IPv6 data plane, >>> >>> >>> >>> > which will be the end all be all replacement for MPLS. It is critica= l >>> >>> >>> >>> > that the BIER WG come up with a solution(s) that supports an IPv6 dat= a >>> >>> >>> >>> > plane for >>> >>> >>> > SRv6 support. We all don't want BIER to die on the vine in a >>> >>> >>> >>> > technology graveyard with ATM, Frame Relay and the likes. We the >>> >>> >>> >>> > authors are all in agreement and running fast after that goal and >>> >>> >>> >>> > understand the AD & Chairs now emphasis on the requirements draft. W= e >>> >>> >>> >>> > are with you lock, stock and barrel. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > The authors of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft >>> >>> >>> >>> > =E2=80=9Cdraft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-08=E2=80=9D, >>> >>> BIERv6, referred to as the >>> >>> >>> > =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D, authors myself, McBride, >>> >>> Xuesong & Jingrong >>> >>> >>> > collaborated in a joint effort over a month timeframe with the author= s >>> >>> >>> >>> > of the BIER IPv6 Solutions draft >>> >>> =E2=80=9Cdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6-07=E2=80=9D, >>> >>> >>> >>> > BIERin6, referred to as the Independent model , authors Jeffrey & >>> >>> >>> >>> > Sandy to come up with a holistic solution where both conceptual model= s >>> >>> >>> >>> > accurately addressed the problem statement as well as the requirement= s >>> >>> >>> >>> > to support IPv6 for SRv6 support. We wanted to make sure that we had >>> >>> >>> >>> > complete parity between conceptual models and relationships to the >>> >>> >>> >>> > problem statement and requirements list. All authors from both >>> >>> >>> >>> > solutions worked together to ensure we had all of our >>> >>> =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D >>> >>> dotted & >>> >>> >>> > =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D >>> >>> crossed so to speak, putting our best foot forward with this rev 7. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > I would like to point out that given the >>> >>> =E2=80=9CIntegrated model=E2=80=9D BIERv6 >>> >>> >>> >>> > Solutions initial draft came out in April 2018, and the >>> >>> =E2=80=9CIndependent model=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >>> > BIERin6 Solution came out in October 2017. It is only since January >>> >>> >>> >>> > 2019 initial draft submission has the work to reverse engineer to com= e >>> >>> >>> >>> > up with the Requirements draft started a >>> >>> =E2=80=9Cpost mortem=E2=80=9D so to speak >>> >>> >>> >>> > after the Solutions had already been proposed. To that end in >>> >>> >>> >>> > IETF108, the requirements draft had positive feedback related to >>> >>> >>> >>> > Section 3 conceptual framework for the two solutions proposed. We ar= e >>> >>> >>> >>> > all at a loss in understanding your comments as to removal of section >>> >>> >>> >>> > 3. In order to create a requirements draft as part of any basic >>> >>> >>> >>> > requirements analysis, you must have some idea or concept or inkling >>> >>> >>> >>> > of a solutions framework to graft & glean the list of requirements >>> which otherwise is not possible in my mind >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- > > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions A**rchitect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > --000000000000ff2a7205b02678eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Thanks Gyan. I'll wait the new rev.

    Cheers,
    Greg
    (Chairs)