From nobody Wed Jun 2 21:50:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427E03A2955 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2021 21:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8eg93NBGJTgM for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2021 21:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9EEF3A2954 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2021 21:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml741-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4FwYBX65bxz6P3KY; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 12:41:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from nkgeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.158) by fraeml741-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.222) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 06:50:30 +0200 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.158) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 12:50:28 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 12:50:28 +0800 From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" To: Martin Vigoureux , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints Thread-Index: AQHXViELnk5x8V3Q7kW0oPV5AOVsY6sBuc4Q Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:50:27 +0000 Message-ID: <6f8dfc5766004c1c8112e5b4f3d64b33@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.112.232.176] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2021 04:50:37 -0000 Dear Martin, Thanks for your response to my complaints. Although it has been 12 weeks si= nce my original email, I understand that there are other things on your tim= e as AD and that this was a detailed issue for you to research. We look forward to more open and effective communications with the WG chair= s, and we are hopeful for the fair and open discussion that you expect.=20 It will be good to see the chairs' summary of the discussions regarding the= BIERv6 solution in general and regarding the specific document which propo= ses a solution. This may help explain their attitude towards the work. Fro= m my point of view, it will be more suitable to invite 3rd party to have th= e summary instead of having the summary by the chairs self. Of course, you are right that the individual issues that caused us to make = a complaint could each have happened for understandable and reasonable reas= ons. On its own many issues are not critical. But it still feels to me that= there was a pattern or behavior that always makes our work come out at the= bottom. Please know that we do not object to the WG adopting BIERin6, but = we are not happy that BIERin6 and BIERv6 are not given the same opportunity= to be presented or discussed in the WG. Actually there was proposal to ado= pt both drafts and make them experimental until it was clear which had supp= ort in the market place.=20 Nothing in your email puts in place any process to ensure that the WG will = discuss fairly in future. So I would like to understand from the WG chairs = and from you some solid suggestions to make this happen and here are some a= ctions I would like to propose based on your suggestions in the response: - Wait for chairs or 3rd party to produce their summary of discussion of BI= ER IPv6 topic. - Opportunity to answer the summary in email list or at IETF-111. - Full consideration by WG of adopting BIERv6 along with BIERin6. - No progress on BIERin6 until first three points addressed. Best Regards, Jingrong -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM To: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints WG First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March,=20 and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier=20 mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will=20 make a general statement. It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in=20 the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen=20 sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that=20 some points are more problematic than others. Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a=20 variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with=20 a particular one. It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in=20 itself, a concern. I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some=20 occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I=20 trust they will pay attention to that in the future. About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way=20 this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an=20 adoption poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is=20 common practice, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG=20 discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this. The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution.=20 Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions=20 regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific=20 document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time=20 after this e-mail. Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open=20 discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes=20 on the way forward. Martin _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Thu Jun 3 04:20:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB16D3A34BC for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRiVy3U2luwQ for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x636.google.com (mail-ej1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC0243A34BE for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x636.google.com with SMTP id a11so7965533ejf.3 for ; Thu, 03 Jun 2021 04:20:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=QVthYiXHSqzswTSYaN0zXWHMjKZ3xIb2LmTEOv0ggus=; b=Bb1Ay5ihPXTq4Vi/T4ouCDm+f39nvC8SG3gL85fx1PfHg+L5Y23JxgdEkbAI/FHDqF jNfUyVlEF660sgSGI4Pi7TYQQ7AO+4VqVskIRV4umjZp5TBMpWg2DqMSifJJenG8Z8lW HlV+2lFeRgOC746nc+dQpQPbzLzYK6LFWVRSV5Clxl1ocwfGhiqmUkho3GGk4CDjvRdG Eqc/TTJVIzZsdQUPrG8QBL54+DZGapsF7OsemkgqmUcxpN6Xnw+zixp8lKAr/hWGjrhc 1JADt1Xo5wN1mo4mXPZ3NMaH2n7vYF/IfwR37+7FiuEZSyBeLq2PR92KG14eY2HV3XbH 7k3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QVthYiXHSqzswTSYaN0zXWHMjKZ3xIb2LmTEOv0ggus=; b=nEj1iFJ8dqCayxxKP5nP8BVoTlG0awp9k6YjWigUQHQhFZE+3/afzQsaBI+qv4ke+L PVmEDqeAWZHvQjKSac6pHda0R+RaZDXRaslaw9mERVP1wOabE/Bf5p03bGJ+zaMYmIPD M2ktxxuazVcR0UhZGvGDApT81BIpKiebxTqrtxycKz5uVtWak2yS0XZQqvIEAh7GUkyv zMWAgTYRUBiB03QOw39TA5AIu9v2t73IuC8uaG/Eqzgt+MvB52cz566Rc5GVNUZSqm0q zQyYK+HTyvzTm2mHGa9GB08GxByfwP+Lz48J16IYLRe2cPjMQNjGrt1BZFNptdq/+ZzP cnFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Bi83ZUDCZLlJwkNWnxrdl4eXukNgFDBmmy2RUOAaCnAwSYdCz uHqBo7XAY2LVQUFRF4AXKEHHy+P9vPl0m2Q9rpHwKMeH3UA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyFHKydg+N3lij6NGlnEHsDfERSB+RTzIi9q//3CgB5TI+MVsbL0Ray4+7ox3BrX++Tl8YprbKHm6fVHcvByMg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4e81:: with SMTP id v1mr5331071eju.125.1622719204688; Thu, 03 Jun 2021 04:20:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:19:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Vigoureux Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4066b05c3dac1aa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2021 11:20:14 -0000 --000000000000c4066b05c3dac1aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks you Martin for your time and effort. I will send our summary on a dedicated thread for discussion Cheers, Greg On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 6:29 AM Martin Vigoureux wrote: > WG > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, > and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier > mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will > make a general statement. > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in > the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen > sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that > some points are more problematic than others. > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a > variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with > a particular one. > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in > itself, a concern. > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some > occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I > trust they will pay attention to that in the future. > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way > this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an > adoption poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is > common practice, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG > discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this. > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions > regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific > document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time > after this e-mail. > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open > discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes > on the way forward. > > > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --000000000000c4066b05c3dac1aa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks you Martin for your time and effort. I will send ou= r summary=C2=A0on a dedicated=C2=A0thread for discussion

Cheers,
Greg


On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 6:29 AM= Martin Vigoureux <martin.= vigoureux@nokia.com> wrote:
WG

First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.

I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March,
and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.

I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will make a general statement.

It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in
the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen
sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that
some points are more problematic than others.
Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a
variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a particular one.
It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in
itself, a concern.
I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some
occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I
trust they will pay attention to that in the future.

About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way
this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an
adoption poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is
common practice, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG
discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this.

The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution.
Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific
document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time
after this e-mail.

Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open
discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on the way forward.


Martin

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
--000000000000c4066b05c3dac1aa-- From nobody Thu Jun 3 04:26:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5127B3A00E9 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:26:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stX7AIiwT3Ua for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com (mail-ej1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F37A83A00E5 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id ce15so8699560ejb.4 for ; Thu, 03 Jun 2021 04:26:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=T8cWprNl+kmbuxaXSmuB8rgvD7MXuEqtpFBFVTuYA/k=; b=ToBm+j+zSmWkTwhCRCvr+OzQneZj5rDeCd+MD+O1ynI3sNxmUdePi/Oae299rO4SjG KY37wojjcjKg7UhEjVQVeOGdXMSTrCJa53bV9fm/Fbj/XSdFUPMsZkkKUzF8sNJomX1l QtJazQJ8YCSN5X+4VNokU/LYAgqUrlbvS91kabBsyN5n3pHuWHOkgvdcHFmWP0Y+DkYU bFock63kI5IyFKCWDgOyNJlUlZSRDTXZc8eddD5QmBMzrgAvzsN6SUZTzGtCepTNEWZf WG7WsL8vkzf0tKU9IvWGz6YR0inKzmbkhBbkDani1090ohy/pEdCMCFnpORIDlNqtx7R JW0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=T8cWprNl+kmbuxaXSmuB8rgvD7MXuEqtpFBFVTuYA/k=; b=LLFFldrDH9jlkHeq1EJAkJlTPByU9v9mRDfgkXwMHp2LyOc1dwobyoeyiqJuIK86VA icp+kTPrdzZ4aJswIYIUMZoC8uaW5T1qZjqPn/vHbh1k+f29i8oVB159dm7fG2P+JBHZ kPoBfPKcs3UDKD01kBirSxVABncIzWB+tSRvbJjdd1y22n28qQCDqBQXlSW2MSHW56mn 2hkTYuTVT8EIOq+/l50bG0Ri3h4+A5pOMdkxdBsQCGDZZ6cCD//9NVv/FEQmH8hX11A4 QkxkOppUdT0q+uz0MYCEHjXkuA3VoKKMHvQPcdX2y0tL10cGDFCmT//2bp9fVwqleGig ccXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530HLAvHOWpzQTrYWbF4KslqaGcgp4WqMAXRzl6gkxWKgMEcT6fQ VJ8bQdrSUkj4PYTcSYFr93u38rM+Uj5cuN0fvjD4WLGZDV2EAQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw0cekGkakZp1wUqK75yo2cz771Jr+TtS4gxd659N0qy+rFwVaIhH/qcLLRGOFeadncE6F3A/gbpUORS4kRHpM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4789:: with SMTP id cw9mr39018299ejc.325.1622719594748; Thu, 03 Jun 2021 04:26:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 04:26:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003ddba05c3dad9ae" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] BIER WG summary of draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2021 11:26:39 -0000 --00000000000003ddba05c3dad9ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BIER WG summary of draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation Technical Summary: =E2=80=A2 BIER and IPv6 tightly coupled for BIER/lower layer: =E2=80=A2 BIER header as option in IPv6 DOH =E2=80=A2 Proto field is not used. This seems to leave BIER-ping undefined.= =E2=80=9CHow BIER-PING is supported in BIERv6 encapsulation without using this Proto field is outside the scope of this document=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 not clear if= this might need another set of procedures. =E2=80=A2 IPv6 encapsulation from BFIR to BFER. IPv6 is used even between d= irectly connected BFRs =E2=80=A2 Service over BIER tightly coupled with SRv6 (protocol/layer depen= dency) =E2=80=A2 But with different SRv6 behavior =E2=80=93 Source address instead= of DA is used on BFER for service delimiting, which has its own complications Issues: =E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is already specified in RFC8296 =E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change. This= is the reason why BIER began as experimental - narrow point in hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2=80= =9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane =E2=80=93 is the foundation from which the rest of the architecture = grows. =E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time= of the original WG Experimental Charter. =E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those invo= lved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also a core tenant of the layered and scalable architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed as well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to make this responsibility clear for all future contributors. =E2=80=A2 MPLS encaps and non-MPLS encaps clearly show BIER is L2: no check= sums, no fragmentation, no security on frames, none of which is needed or encompassed as necessary by the BIER architecture. =E2=80=A2 OAM is already in BIER. IPv6 may have its own OAM, so BIERV6 OAM = solution has to bypass BIER, or have SRv6 OAM include BIER? These pose unnecessary complications and risks. =E2=80=A2 The draft describes a completely new fast-path for what was origi= nally described as a "transition solution", without any clear use case that cannot be met by simple layered encapsulation: The following is an example pseudo-code of the End.BIER function: 1. IF NH =3D 60 and HopLimit > 0 2. IF (OptType1 =3D BIER) and (OptLength1 =3D HdrExtLen*= 8 + 4) 3. Lookup the BIER Header inside the BIER option TLV. 4. Forward via the matched entry. 5. ELSE 6. Drop the packet and end the process. 7. ELSE IF NH=3DICMPv6 or (NH=3D60 and Dest_NH=3DICMPv6) 8. Send to CPU. 9. ELSE 10. Drop the packet. =E2=80=A2 Homenet needs a BIER solution, and homenet will not run SRv6. It'= s unlikely cheap silicon will do extensive processing on options with modifications in flight. A simple next-protocol pointer is the proven, safe, and scalable approach. =E2=80=A2 It is still unclear whether hop-by-hop header options modificatio= n is allowed. Can the DA be changed hop by hop w/o using a routing header? What is to be done with all the DOH options at each hop (that changes the DA).The draft describes copying DOH router to router or abuse DOH as a router options since each router processes it. If the option is copied because other options may vanish/go, then the option will always be in a different place and there is really no advantage compared to simple next-proto layering. The ongoing discussions have not cleared this up. =E2=80=A2 When encoding BIER as one option in HBH or DOH, other options can= also be carried, making BIER encoding inconsistent and difficult to locate. =E2=80=A2 A variable BIER header location makes hardware implementations di= fficult, and potentially more expensive and lower performance =E2=80=A2 When BIER is encoded in DOH, the Next Header field in DOH is dupl= icated with the proto field in BIER header, and the two values must be kept consistent. But because IPv6 has no OAM type in next header definition, the OAM type will only be kept in the BIER header. This further complicates coding and execution. Conclusion: draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation is an unnecessary complication to a rather young Standards Track forwarding model =E2=80=93 BIER. Everythi= ng it claims to address can be accomplished through well proven, layered architecture solutions, and by using encapsulation methods already standardized by the IETF, so none of what the draft describes is necessary. It is the conclusion of the BIER WG Chairs that all the above technical summary has been presented and discussed on the list extensively. It is also the conclusion of the Chairs that creating a layer dependency - fusion/melding of overlay forwarding layer, BIER forwarding layer, and lower transport layer - would take the standard in the wrong direction. Replication has been bound to unicast forwarding planes for more than 30 years. BIER has finally brought a dedicated, independent replicating forwarding plane to the Internet Architecture. It would be irresponsible to ignore the original concerns that started BIER on the Experimental Track now that it has just started to develop on the Standards Track. Thanks everyone for your input and patience. Cheers, Greg (Chairs) --00000000000003ddba05c3dad9ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
BIER WG summary of draft-xie-bier-ip= v6-encapsulation

Technical Summary:

=
= =E2=80=A2 BIER and IPv6 tightly coupled for BIER/lower layer:
<= span class=3D"gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> =E2= =80=A2 BIER header as option in IPv6 DOH
=E2=80=A2 Proto field is not used. Thi= s seems to leave BIER-ping undefined. =E2=80=9CHow BIER-PING is supported i= n BIERv6 encapsulation without using this Proto field is outside the scope = of this document=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 not clear if this might need another se= t of procedures.
=E2=80=A2 IPv6 encapsulation from BFIR to BFER. IPv6 is = used even between directly connected BFRs
=E2=80=A2 Service over BIER tigh= tly coupled with SRv6 (protocol/layer dependency)=C2=A0
=E2=80=A2 But with= different SRv6 behavior =E2=80=93 Source address instead of DA is used on = BFER for service delimiting, which has its own complications

=
Issues:

=E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is already speci= fied in RFC8296
=E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2= =80=99t change.=C2=A0 This is the reason why BIER began as experimental - n= arrow point in hourglass=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cn= arrow point of the hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane =E2=80= =93 =C2=A0is the foundation from which the rest of the architecture grows.<= /div>
<= /span>=E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the tim= e of the original WG Experimental Charter.=C2=A0
=E2=80=A2 This is admitte= dly historic/institutional knowledge of those involved in the WG from the b= eginning. But it is also a core tenant of the layered and scalable architec= ture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed as well-understood by the = original WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to m= ake this responsibility clear for all future contributors.

=E2=80=A2 MPLS encaps and non-MPLS encaps clearly show BIER is L2: no check= sums, no fragmentation, no security on frames, none of which is needed or e= ncompassed as necessary by the BIER architecture.=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 = OAM is already in BIER. IPv6 may have its own OAM, so BIERV6 OAM sol= ution has to bypass BIER, or have SRv6 OAM include BIER? These pose unneces= sary complications and risks.

=E2=80=A2 The draft describes= a completely new fast-path for what was originally described as a "tr= ansition solution", without any clear use case that cannot be met by s= imple layered encapsulation:

The following is an e= xample pseudo-code of the End.BIER function:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. IF NH =3D 60 and HopLimit >= 0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. =C2=A0 IF (OptType1 =3D BIER) a= nd (OptLength1 =3D HdrExtLen*8 + 4) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Loo= kup the BIER Header inside the BIER option TLV. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
<= div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04. =C2=A0= =C2=A0 Forward via the matched entry. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05. =C2=A0 ELSE = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A06. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Drop the packet a= nd end the process. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A07. ELSE IF NH=3DICMPv6 or (NH=3D60 an= d Dest_NH=3DICMPv6) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A08. =C2=A0 Send t= o CPU. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A09. ELSE =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10. =C2=A0 Drop the pa= cket.=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 Homenet needs a BIER solution, and ho= menet will not run SRv6. It's unlikely cheap silicon will do extensive = processing on options with modifications in flight. A simple next-protocol = pointer is the proven, safe, and scalable approach.=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 It is still unclear whether hop-by-hop header options modification= is allowed. Can the DA be changed hop by hop w/o using a routing header? W= hat is to be done with all the DOH options at each hop (that changes the DA= ).The draft describes copying DOH router to router or abuse DOH as a router= options since each router processes it. If the option is copied because ot= her options may vanish/go, then the option will always be in a different pl= ace and there is really no advantage compared to simple next-proto layering= . The ongoing discussions have not cleared this up.

= =E2=80=A2 When encoding BIER as one option in HBH or DOH, other options can also= be carried, making BIER encoding inconsistent and difficult to locate.=C2= =A0
=E2=80=A2 A variable BIER header location makes hardware implementatio= ns difficult, and potentially more expensive and lower performance=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 When BIER is encoded in DOH, the Next Header field = in DOH is duplicated with the proto field in BIER header, and the two value= s must be kept consistent. But because IPv6 has no OAM type in next header = definition, the OAM type will only be kept in the BIER header. This further= complicates coding and execution.


= Conclusion:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 dra= ft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation is an unnecessary complication to a rather y= oung Standards Track forwarding model =E2=80=93 BIER. Everything it claims = to address can be accomplished through well proven, layered architecture so= lutions, and by using encapsulation methods already standardized by the IET= F, so none of what the draft describes is necessary. It is the conclusion o= f the BIER WG Chairs that all the above technical summary has been presente= d and discussed on the list extensively. It is also the conclusion of the C= hairs that creating a layer dependency - fusion/melding of overlay forwardi= ng layer, BIER forwarding layer, and lower transport layer - would take the= standard in the wrong direction. Replication has been bound to unicast for= warding planes for more than 30 years. BIER has finally brought a dedicated= , independent replicating forwarding plane to the Internet Architecture. It= would be irresponsible to ignore the original concerns that started BIER o= n the Experimental Track now that it has just started to develop on the Sta= ndards Track.=C2=A0

Thanks everyone for your i= nput and patience.

Cheers,
Greg
(Chairs)

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Thread-Topic: [Bier] BIER WG summary of draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHXWGteTM67vc3DuU+SsWDr1mhq/qsOthJA Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 11:29:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.112.232.176] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ed5a316d95e4444da8edc3364f2231a2huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] BIER WG summary of draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 11:30:02 -0000 --_000_ed5a316d95e4444da8edc3364f2231a2huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FB23A349B for ; Fri, 11 Jun 2021 04:40:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jA_F7M7yi5-y for ; Fri, 11 Jun 2021 04:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D79A93A3499 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 2021 04:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml739-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4G1dv46mvXz6L7Gh; Fri, 11 Jun 2021 19:30:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from nkgeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.153) by fraeml739-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.220) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Fri, 11 Jun 2021 13:40:05 +0200 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Fri, 11 Jun 2021 19:40:03 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Fri, 11 Jun 2021 19:40:03 +0800 From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" To: Martin Vigoureux , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints Thread-Index: AQHXViELnk5x8V3Q7kW0oPV5AOVsY6sOvfwA Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 11:40:03 +0000 Message-ID: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.112.232.176] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 11:40:17 -0000 Dear Martin, We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it refle= cts the key technical differences between us and the chairs.=20 >From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is L2 = in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. >From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, which sh= ould be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal interpretatio= n. For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they hav= e been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and have b= een proven by implementation and test. Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted BIER s= olution in IPv6/SRv6 network.=20 We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would like t= o propose two options about what should be done in the next step:=20 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER archit= ecture. 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does not co= mply with BIER architecture.=20 Thank you very much for your help. Jingrong -----Original Message----- From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM To: bier@ietf.org Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints WG First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, and I= have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mailing = list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will ma= ke a general statement. It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in the s= ense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen sometimes a= s part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points are m= ore problematic than others. Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a variety o= f intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a particula= r one. It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itself, a= concern. I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasions, t= heir communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they will pa= y attention to that in the future. About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way this = was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoption poll = is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice, and i= n fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have little= arguments to go back on this. The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution.=20 Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions reg= arding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific document= which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after this e-m= ail. Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open discus= sion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on the w= ay forward. Martin _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Sat Jun 12 06:05:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495373A11A7 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 2021 06:05:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jjc0w6eTNVn5 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 2021 06:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BED13A11A6 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 2021 06:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id w21so40297779edv.3 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 2021 06:05:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=chiwgWU63aPTjCe6bjNQXizEk3CbXsVpOMotr27XT9U=; b=cDkBWbnhGwnYgKRfjOCJe+TxmuB58txibwiF2mAHknghLw2gjT9GCS1JT1ucFqMpMr SbBO7MYuyawvcfa26n2ZTCYRKZEP/YnQhzyNgLNRYd3eSKzZPdApYFFzC6sv5mrEndxt o0SI3vytU+/gtH9/uroujj3T1068dSkRVXo5A8EEkTfae812tylIWq5GPkECui9tGcuY b0XXHjh5eE9kAj+VcPr7x9uy7dfrQNIKaQwh4NSVkIMWRMqYutJVWtmdbnzLnZhdD90+ FrQYywvd9VK2S/SP3RwK4q6zMhWB3nB9tHej0P1Tpsu2o8qrvawygAQkfOEvOXV0mV5p eMIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=chiwgWU63aPTjCe6bjNQXizEk3CbXsVpOMotr27XT9U=; b=c4N2xWLa4yIGpVZ8jizOnA4pIoq1ztG5uLEiVB6R05iqAjavz2eO42dQtd78ywxfZe uvxfXYeJmTYr8JA0OKFJ9OLkVmW/tGSVM7pDNmrUgS6EVwHExrBkmvC2WEar3u5ixbu5 jv35ylBbWFZ8kZ3BIjK2w+jmv929w13xopwEMGRap5Jakq/o78UtjA0U5loBy06OJz6V NUcfI6LH1/uG8gvlDzHe4MDgvjfhytFPNqz80LGOt5lrxG4OeS+CmeXOrQtx5wuupVSU 1Sl1w4Nu76mbxYtzs+ICdiDUbCfHQCjstip9HXtb2N7rI+Z0lJeVO79+3ZaaOOiYUZRj bYfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5307B0o9BfDKs4MlTqjOKY19932n/tZKbBsFgQZmYKhjm7KVPFiS vHxdhBA8On7ivlq4HyYpOlAFstjskUD7mPPeX7GoPt3oQn30yQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVF65N05S8n+4JIv+zg10Kx5tDKsMS/GOuBHRXET7oUKmtdJw/KFookHG/zlEGviSrPj7F+Egf0TWEWrsX2fs= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c758:: with SMTP id c24mr8818628eds.188.1623503126942; Sat, 12 Jun 2021 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 06:05:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002c594505c4914724" Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:05:33 -0000 --0000000000002c594505c4914724 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The following bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to the list: =E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 =E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change. This= is the reason why BIER began as experimental - narrow point in hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2=80= =9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane =E2=80=93 is the foundation from which the rest of the architecture grows. =E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time= of the original WG Experimental Charter. =E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those invo= lved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed as well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to make this responsibility clear for all future contributors. RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understood by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. Thanks, Greg (Chairs) --0000000000002c594505c4914724 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A big "thank you" to all W= G members who have worked so hard to get BIER to where it is today. And to = no surprise, our work is not done. The following bullet points are from the= Chairs' technical summary previously sent to the list:=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296
=E2=80=A2<= span class=3D"gmail-Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> Alia = Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change.=C2=A0 This is the re= ason why BIER began as experimental - narrow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 point in hourglass=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80= =9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane = =E2=80=93 =C2=A0is the foundation from which=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rest of the architecture grows.
=E2=80=A2 This was the p= osition of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of the original WG Expe= rimental Charter.
=E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional kno= wledge of those involved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a core tenet of the layered and scal= able architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed as=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 well-understood by the original WG contri= butors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to make this=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responsibility clear for all future cont= ributors.

RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beg= inning of the WG. It has since been made clear that the authors at that tim= e had assumed the importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of a= rchitecture was well understood by the community at large. That no longer s= eems to be the case. Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the dr= aft of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIE= R ethertype.

This is a call for volunteers to upda= te RFC8279 to better define BIER at the forwarding plane, and clarify how I= ETF-standard encapsulation mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, = while preserving the core tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of t= he Internet.

If you would like to tackle this upda= te, please reply to this thread.

Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)
--0000000000002c594505c4914724-- From nobody Sat Jun 12 06:19:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AB43A123D for ; Sat, 12 Jun 2021 06:19:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DTXfa1oAhVfp for ; Sat, 12 Jun 2021 06:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2021 12:01:43.5712 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: Bs9Ro0/YsVzIJqeGNoDEbsb7L7pOxei9joA24rbIGysuMuFLvAkDOP+eulDRX4JyHcDbruwsz4KTyQzGYu/v98KIqZmcE97G7U3Kpz+btSI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR07MB6325 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 12:01:56 -0000 Dear Jingrong, please see in-line Le 2021-06-11 à 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a écrit : > Dear Martin, > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal interpretation. it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and reach consensus on. -m > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and have been proven by implementation and test. > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER architecture. > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does not comply with BIER architecture. > > Thank you very much for your help. > > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Vigoureux > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > To: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > WG > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will make a general statement. > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points are more problematic than others. > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a particular one. > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itself, a concern. > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they will pay attention to that in the future. > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoption poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this. > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after this e-mail. > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on the way forward. > > > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > From nobody Mon Jun 14 06:47:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EE63A2507 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 06:47:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nmP0BJETMEDx for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 06:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com (mail-ej1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E39233A2502 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 06:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id nd37so9070351ejc.3 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 06:47:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=w1/sDlTKDiqaF23zMISDKKL0rniNXpG2PuUiTxM4HGs=; b=qaOhTtEtybpOa84I+KtsvfR3BD3bdtJLsk72TdlR9Os8wwBNLaVjNZRKukDO5fnzu4 PDHFZblseSc/u3JU2QKGw9fFWAh5d9Mibt2MyOh1klslixnmxOBejkYMwiAWKTdfA4HC pUEQhQjoVz4s8N8VUX/L1pFmRlkL3NzwdG4EGSae2RMbQ09lk094xHUe3Hl2i0jg1gUD ig56Czw71P9zqB6BHSBA116T4cFGFm59wnHtSNTEiRTX/yfoJ1lKdLMv3c6OYs8jLII+ 6jIDFTSJfAZK9fDNjESdJBw6buMz/9+4+fSGmibc0K+khCETpwQRDFjiRa7nt6wVW03X kohA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=w1/sDlTKDiqaF23zMISDKKL0rniNXpG2PuUiTxM4HGs=; b=K4eeWF9faDnBTMgknkuPRDObGM1R+lEIWPA/1BHX04UjYi4bbfYluuqlUmLlXAaefX kV8YcuEtw2MVD7Arh9MAisKVfhczTmhr1O5FKWs5iBXI2QfVDci3Zz7f7CGeT3z8SjqT wepKcyF+B00K6iMCbK3IenSS7TiBuiYH+ghbUkBuMbbI6PZPmustW4P49daYCfwIv810 zGgs0gVuH/5UWr9TghrJZYDhsWcI7LfD+0Axwhi1pgX/aUbvOCQ41UZdElDcqLfp50LF ysW7KBjr69pTf7L+xEWezjsemaTf4p0NwuB4DEvnex+26F/NB6pcowZODFRcC+JNvVLl 5n9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531b0TcyWIwH/KkF6lF6nhJeLCFGruw8lZ+n0yGpQ+wfOZjdrazo pg5Y519itzNEkZubbVi2c+rVveNbRrydEUsE0AA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwlHVCjr5a+fSfR2IweCrQg8oSbSgdpt8X4AokIIz784ZbZUqXct4bvaH/xumeB/bIrW6n3Awp8jQUL3SibPsg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:530e:: with SMTP id h14mr15563793ejo.165.1623678431039; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202106122119264815393@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <202106122119264815393@zte.com.cn> Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 06:46:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: "zhang.zheng" Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c96bf05c4ba188d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:47:24 -0000 --0000000000001c96bf05c4ba188d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Sandy! Anyone else willing to help? Thanks, Greg (Chairs) On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM wrote: > Hi Gerg, Tony, > May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more detailed= ? > Thank you very much! > Best regards, > Sandy > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*gjshep > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*bier; > *=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F:*2021-06-12 21:05:49 > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:**[Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC* > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER t= o > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The followin= g > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to t= he > list: > > =E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > =E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change. Th= is is the reason why > BIER began as experimental - narrow > point in hourglass=E2=80=9D > =E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding > plane =E2=80=93 is the foundation from which > the rest of the architecture grows. > =E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the ti= me of > the original WG Experimental Charter. > =E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those in= volved > in the WG from the beginning. But it is also > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > update the BIER architecture to make this > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance = of > the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understoo= d > by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. > Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was > complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > --0000000000001c96bf05c4ba188d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you, Sandy!=C2=A0

Anyone else wil= ling to help?

Thanks,
Greg
(Ch= airs)


On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> wrote:
Hi Gerg, Tony,
May I volunteer for the work to = help making the description more detailed?
Thank you very much!
Bes= t regards,
Sandy

=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9= =82=AE=E4=BB=B6

_____________________________= __________________
BIER=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/bier

A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard = to get BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done.= The following bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary pre= viously sent to the list:=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is= specified in RFC8296
=E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2= =80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change.=C2=A0 This is the reason why B= IER began as experimental - narrow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 point in hourglass=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=A2 The encoding at = the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwardin= g plane =E2=80=93 =C2=A0is the foundation from which=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rest of the architecture grows.
=E2=80=A2 This was the pos= ition of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of the original WG Experi= mental Charter.
=E2=80=A2 This is admitted= ly historic/institutional knowledge of those involved in the WG from the be= ginning. But it is also=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a core tenet of the layered and scalable a= rchitecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed as=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 well-understood by the original WG contrib= utors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to make this=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responsibility clear for all future contri= butors.

RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since= been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance o= f the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understoo= d by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additiona= lly, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, a= nd even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype.

This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER = at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation mechan= isms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core tenet o= f a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet.

If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread.<= /div>

Thanks,
Greg
(Chairs)
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X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GxqtP/8q6On45Y29mk6ai+ff8E0wjT5aIbhLqfEwyRWVhOIFm 57+jAiRFCw0Xpywv6ahHfgg/xfNTLGRgBiHs4VA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzMLur+eremZRTpwlTDXQwD98f1JkgC8Rc7CJ7qrBfPiLNLnRkcoxr99javojbm69SEsbasCDZWIBbzFe3ufuo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:2202:: with SMTP id l2mr16964478jas.98.1623680567924; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 07:22:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202106122119264815393@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 16:22:11 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: "gjshep@gmail.com" , "zhang.zheng" , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007adb6405c4ba9729" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 14:22:54 -0000 --0000000000007adb6405c4ba9729 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AFAIS the rev should include all the lessons we learned since 8279 was smote ;-) Initial architecture was written in a very accessible form, alas could have benefited from more rigour. Trade-off taken was to move fast with folks who were largely mind-melted based on long experience in networking & multicast problems and framework which was malleable rather than formalize things into a strict corset readable for less experienced folks. The rigour would benefit us now IMO, especially since lots of work fleshed the details out and newest discussions show that lots of lessons that old-hands in multicast learned are not necessarily obvious. Things like "how do you route underlay?" which led to BAR/IPA discussions or "can you run BIER without an IGP" which led to lots of yang discussions to allow for controller only deployments or even BIER-TE which basically uses BIER to interpret the bitmask completely differently should be codified in 8279bis IMO. -- tony On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi Greg > > > > Just to ensure is the final goal to update 8279 to include bier forwardin= g > with all BIER encapsulation including MPLS, non-MPLS and IPv6 encap? And/= Or > is it to include bier forwarding over tunnels including mpls, ipv6, for F= RR > etc=E2=80=A6 ? > > > > Thanks > > Hooman > > > > *From:* BIER *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd > *Sent:* Monday, June 14, 2021 9:47 AM > *To:* zhang.zheng > *Cc:* BIER WG > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC > > > > Thank you, Sandy! > > > > Anyone else willing to help? > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM wrote: > > Hi Gerg, Tony, > May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more detailed= ? > Thank you very much! > Best regards, > Sandy > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA**:*gjshep > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA**:*bier; > > *=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F**:*2021-06-12 21:05:49 > > *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**:[Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC= * > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER t= o > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The followin= g > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to t= he > list: > > > > =E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > > =E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change. Th= is is the reason why BIER > began as experimental - narrow > > point in hourglass=E2=80=9D > > =E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding > plane =E2=80=93 is the foundation from which > > the rest of the architecture grows. > > =E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the ti= me of the > original WG Experimental Charter. > > =E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those in= volved in > the WG from the beginning. But it is also > > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > update the BIER architecture to make this > > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance = of > the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understoo= d > by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. > Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was > complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --0000000000007adb6405c4ba9729 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<individual>

AFAI= S the rev should include all the lessons we learned since 8279 was smote ;-= )

Initial architecture was written in a very = accessible form, alas could have benefited from more rigour. Trade-off take= n was to move fast with folks who were largely mind-melted based on long ex= perience in networking & multicast problems and framework which was mal= leable rather than formalize things into a strict corset readable for less = experienced folks. The rigour would benefit us now IMO, especially since lo= ts of work fleshed the details out and newest discussions show that lots of= lessons that old-hands in multicast learned are not necessarily obvious. T= hings like "how do you route underlay?" which led to BAR/IPA disc= ussions or "can you run BIER without an IGP" which led to lots of= yang discussions to allow for controller only deployments or even BIER-TE = which basically uses BIER to interpret the bitmask completely differently s= hould be codified in 8279bis IMO.

-- tony

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) = <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi Greg

=C2=A0

Just to ensure is the final goal to update 827= 9 to include bier forwarding with all BIER encapsulation including MPLS, no= n-MPLS and IPv6 encap? And/Or is it to include bier forwarding over tunnels including mpls, ipv6, for FRR etc=E2=80=A6 ?

=C2=A0

Thanks

Hooman

=C2=A0

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 9:47 AM
To: zhang.zheng <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Cc: BIER WG <b= ier@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC

=C2=A0

Thank you, Sandy!=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Anyone else willing to help?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> = wrote:

Hi Gerg, Tony,
May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more detailed? =
Thank you very much!
Best regards,
Sandy

=E5= =8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:gjshep<gjshep@g= mail.com>

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:bier<bier@ietf.org>;

=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F:2021-06-12 21:05:49

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:[Bier] RFC8279: Request= for authors to update RFC

___________________________________________= ____
BIER=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

A big "thank you" to all WG members who ha= ve worked so hard to get BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our= work is not done. The following bullet points are from the Chairs' tec= hnical summary previously sent to the list:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 <= /u>

=E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don= =E2=80=99t change.=C2=A0 This is the reason why BIER began as experimental = - narrow

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 point in hourglass=E2=80= =9D

=E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point = of the hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane =E2=80=93 =C2=A0is= the foundation from which=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rest of the architec= ture grows.

=E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the = BIER WG ADs at the time of the original WG Experimental Charter.

=E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional = knowledge of those involved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a core tenet of the laye= red and scalable architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed a= s=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 well-understood by the o= riginal WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to ma= ke this=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responsibility clear for= all future contributors.

=C2=A0

RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of th= e WG. It has since been made clear that the authors at that time had assume= d the importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture = was well understood by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, the draft of = RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the= assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype.

=C2=A0

This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to b= etter define BIER at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard en= capsulation mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preservin= g the core tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet.

=C2=A0

If you would like to tackle this update, please repl= y to this thread.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
--0000000000007adb6405c4ba9729-- From nobody Mon Jun 14 13:35:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69933A0AE7 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:35:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c8Gy0UbGIOQY for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B94D3A0AE0 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id ba2so46425182edb.2 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:35:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=zrowdmhw05UEfuAeIDHNns08aQvIG3S+CBs98WRFYeM=; b=bdwc/n0/O1k9nYQwHYjiUdrmOuCa2ueEN5G91/auOXl3K2U791rLFhZKJZ58+/WBw6 wsTjgswLtROdIyiK3SsdQEOLKHG5HD0CM87B246TrIeolENC31kEJrTAtoA8DqX45SZq khvV4b67ycq9tgNUeDNpnBzXfcO4HRLTY1J/E6KXKMTHjHjprk/YsjASw1qam9A4CgdN uSgZPG3YnAgZe9KFNjsvCFZewDzPff4tKyEEv/cHXX9PSVlHQKkWRat7HzqhHDPdszqy OLLiDMNg3jW0REAdXN54rl07uWJdIxlQ/fWrmSe0WpU6ZASWNvBp3AvwP0pch2tSPxYr nH9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zrowdmhw05UEfuAeIDHNns08aQvIG3S+CBs98WRFYeM=; b=I1C9fuO0bIqS66hadOlGVMgosoIpiul/RYLM/TsaTqUXwOknGpCRPb2Hst/HZQWI5+ ZzSvKPmJNGCFWMubbh1HuMBKguzy3kVDhHA+cL6g+3rHlX2ZmMMHN2FoXfhlYgFWmsui inpuUqhDs74Hh0jrRagPYe/llK+sExG3rKAWP3pA8fnkBnVdAFrRcXCtW2HpyMItknzO lezZvJN2ppq2q9bBGsVCjV8SkBlqROwk7glmnwu48YbVY9/awDQpWWwvNmj3LdTcEqaE eurpvtXj5njeEUR8ZOOFSjFeu4kOuiNmEAdnIBb/SKeDupUGapI7s6a9CMb7cEIGD+f/ 1jDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531RtVk6T4i1wgup9dY83PK+9D88xkbfdEZehTo16nD1rwXytUwN B/UpSQh45SU5geIR2XikMuva6e6EQsomAymwSoc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwee2Bk2Zt/mWjbk5LVzi1bjkod36DSZZTSaBqZkEOHAFHtiCVMM5TgNJc0ufk32Y3u7Ik09tv4C2cmQ0wt8pU= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:db18:: with SMTP id t24mr11675617eds.72.1623702938110; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:35:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202106122119264815393@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:35:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tony Przygienda Cc: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "zhang.zheng" , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d8ce5905c4bfcc21" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 20:35:46 -0000 --000000000000d8ce5905c4bfcc21 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony, Well said. Thanks. Greg On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 7:22 AM Tony Przygienda wrote= : > > > AFAIS the rev should include all the lessons we learned since 8279 was > smote ;-) > > Initial architecture was written in a very accessible form, alas could > have benefited from more rigour. Trade-off taken was to move fast with > folks who were largely mind-melted based on long experience in networking= & > multicast problems and framework which was malleable rather than formaliz= e > things into a strict corset readable for less experienced folks. The rigo= ur > would benefit us now IMO, especially since lots of work fleshed the detai= ls > out and newest discussions show that lots of lessons that old-hands in > multicast learned are not necessarily obvious. Things like "how do you > route underlay?" which led to BAR/IPA discussions or "can you run BIER > without an IGP" which led to lots of yang discussions to allow for > controller only deployments or even BIER-TE which basically uses BIER to > interpret the bitmask completely differently should be codified in 8279bi= s > IMO. > > -- tony > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > >> Hi Greg >> >> >> >> Just to ensure is the final goal to update 8279 to include bier >> forwarding with all BIER encapsulation including MPLS, non-MPLS and IPv6 >> encap? And/Or is it to include bier forwarding over tunnels including mp= ls, >> ipv6, for FRR etc=E2=80=A6 ? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Hooman >> >> >> >> *From:* BIER *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd >> *Sent:* Monday, June 14, 2021 9:47 AM >> *To:* zhang.zheng >> *Cc:* BIER WG >> *Subject:* Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC >> >> >> >> Thank you, Sandy! >> >> >> >> Anyone else willing to help? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Greg >> >> (Chairs) >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM wrote: >> >> Hi Gerg, Tony, >> May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more >> detailed? >> Thank you very much! >> Best regards, >> Sandy >> >> =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 >> >> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA**:*gjshep >> >> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA**:*bier; >> >> *=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F**:*2021-06-12 21:05:49 >> >> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**:[Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RF= C* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> >> A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER >> to where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The >> following bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previousl= y >> sent to the list: >> >> >> >> =E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 >> >> =E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change. T= his is the reason why >> BIER began as experimental - narrow >> >> point in hourglass=E2=80=9D >> >> =E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding >> plane =E2=80=93 is the foundation from which >> >> the rest of the architecture grows. >> >> =E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the t= ime of >> the original WG Experimental Charter. >> >> =E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those i= nvolved >> in the WG from the beginning. But it is also >> >> a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the >> Internet and was erroneously assumed as >> >> well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to >> update the BIER architecture to make this >> >> responsibility clear for all future contributors. >> >> >> >> RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since >> been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance= of >> the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understo= od >> by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. >> Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was >> complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. >> >> >> >> This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at >> the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation >> mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the cor= e >> tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. >> >> >> >> If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Greg >> >> (Chairs) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> BIER mailing list >> BIER@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier >> > --000000000000d8ce5905c4bfcc21 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tony,
Well said. Thanks.

Greg

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 7:22 AM Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<individual>

AFAIS the rev should include all the lessons we learned since 8279= was smote ;-)

Initial architecture was writt= en in a very accessible form, alas could have benefited from more rigour. T= rade-off taken was to move fast with folks who were largely mind-melted bas= ed on long experience in networking & multicast problems and framework = which was malleable rather than formalize things into a strict corset reada= ble for less experienced folks. The rigour would benefit us now IMO, especi= ally since lots of work fleshed the details out and newest discussions show= that lots of lessons that old-hands in multicast learned are not necessari= ly obvious. Things like "how do you route underlay?" which led to= BAR/IPA discussions or "can you run BIER without an IGP" which l= ed to lots of yang discussions to allow for controller only deployments or = even BIER-TE which basically uses BIER to interpret the bitmask completely = differently should be codified in 8279bis IMO.

-- tony

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia = - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi Greg

=C2=A0

Just to ensure is the final goal to update 827= 9 to include bier forwarding with all BIER encapsulation including MPLS, no= n-MPLS and IPv6 encap? And/Or is it to include bier forwarding over tunnels including mpls, ipv6, for FRR etc=E2=80=A6 ?

=C2=A0

Thanks

Hooman

=C2=A0

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 9:47 AM
To: zhang.zheng <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Cc: BIER WG <b= ier@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC

=C2=A0

Thank you, Sandy!=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Anyone else willing to help?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> = wrote:

Hi Gerg, Tony,
May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more detailed? =
Thank you very much!
Best regards,
Sandy

=E5= =8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:gjshep<= ;gjshep@gmail.com= >

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:bier<bier@ietf.org>;

=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F:2021-06-12 21:05:49

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:[Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC

___________________________________________= ____
BIER=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

A big "thank you" to all WG members who ha= ve worked so hard to get BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our= work is not done. The following bullet points are from the Chairs' tec= hnical summary previously sent to the list:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 <= /u>

=E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don= =E2=80=99t change.=C2=A0 This is the reason why BIER began as experimental = - narrow

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 point in hourglass=E2=80= =9D

=E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point = of the hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane =E2=80=93 =C2=A0is= the foundation from which=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rest of the architec= ture grows.

=E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the = BIER WG ADs at the time of the original WG Experimental Charter.

=E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional = knowledge of those involved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a core tenet of the laye= red and scalable architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed a= s=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 well-understood by the o= riginal WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to ma= ke this=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responsibility clear for= all future contributors.

=C2=A0

RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of th= e WG. It has since been made clear that the authors at that time had assume= d the importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture = was well understood by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, the draft of = RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the= assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype.

=C2=A0

This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to b= etter define BIER at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard en= capsulation mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preservin= g the core tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet.

=C2=A0

If you would like to tackle this update, please repl= y to this thread.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
--000000000000d8ce5905c4bfcc21-- From nobody Mon Jun 14 18:53:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA193A194C for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 18:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.696 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.696 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.698, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=PW/qq58h; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=QJhSD/DI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: bier@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.32.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bier@ietf.org Message-ID: <162372427322.4008.3233750071198901737@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 19:31:13 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] I-D Action: draft-ietf-bier-bierin6-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 02:31:14 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG of the IETF. Title : Supporting BIER in IPv6 Networks (BIERin6) Authors : Zheng(Sandy) Zhang Zhaohui Zhang IJsbrand Wijnands Mankamana Mishra Hooman Bidgoli Gyan Mishra Filename : draft-ietf-bier-bierin6-00.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2021-06-14 Abstract: BIER is a new architecture for the forwarding of multicast data packets without requiring per-flow state inside the network. This document describes how the existing BIER encapsulation specified in RFC 8296 works in an IPv6 non-MPLS network, referred to as BIERin6. Specifically, like in an IPv4 network, BIER can work over L2 links directly or over tunnels. In case of IPv6 tunneling, a new IP "Next Header" type is to be assigned for BIER. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-bier-bierin6/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bier-bierin6-00 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 14 19:46:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766233A1B06 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 19:46:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.698, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xRD0iuQDG+2knzo+4xyfBAN9uDb0jI7GZl5wkTHjagI=; b=bH91XsqU4sR1lfC8qkuHsXodaWie2GuT/CQELTVAMAbeQvTeXKRfwG8bIE+8kom0fl Uoz6KGjrxzpa4vn1gUlkDOC3N8+dL9nmKix2gKy9A/uLCklcLupiXnreyMpOXh1JHYYh 4xfxRIPYQmQgkEmCdMG9o8zloOowTnyr8swF87Zq3GjtWV4wEgCwmjbGUDwPEU/kjKMK vvgiGaedKwn/oDqIscAkw6PQSx8god3pPm/iyRrDvmmaw8CVDiPABDiKW9M5JmLU7iaS KhkrbYeJBeUBMxhibEfz9awXUUtqbIrejLRpBpqCAMVMG47xK5W91kccd+2q2DmFDna9 i4GQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xRD0iuQDG+2knzo+4xyfBAN9uDb0jI7GZl5wkTHjagI=; b=jwE4P3xWWrGaH6Ficd/HTwDh1DZ6HVndPge3K9AK+9ENLgpnZp94CK14YRsuY6XWSh t1YhADmUuBHTV64ozgXNUNP/0MJ41SpNdWM/e+eFNobdVlZbQjLURVz6yaM0MbKivD/c /uiCKpLNN7jUk4M3L6Ifd3myJRhZQI3Im50VGlOBhd40I2YLnvoz9WKF8EHUAmdmP9zA uc3UNZbAQY5MHk4WcU5wtiopPHwXZlO/Z8p9gR3cbaF/PexZO6YXmAzV38wFZ0Y+pLe/ xhC91tji84+LapTnkZKcFBM7/BdC7uoParRkHpMIbsizK2GuZ24JcyTW129yuqO87awK R77g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533xsj9VJluV7jUmMLwszsZsyiI9WK6lATLMmiIwgQRQZUYjOGUo B1aGDwmSMnUpMh//Y+DjcCZoGHR/x8630BCA/ao= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJn2uXGxIlxwV7VwRdS3vBHuP0eqR8DedzudsSSSOoNYR2h1KMwE2Ms/kgi6Nz6AQmT6H6cy7eW7REtikZPMY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5403:: with SMTP id z3mr3188521pjh.215.1623736381251; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202106122119264815393@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 01:52:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: BIER WG , Tony Przygienda , "gjshep@gmail.com" , "zhang.zheng" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000036a36005c4c79637" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 05:53:10 -0000 --00000000000036a36005c4c79637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to help. Thanks Gyan On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 10:46 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > This time replying to all =F0=9F=98=8A > > > > Thanks for the explanation, sure I can assist. > > > > Regards > > Hooman > > > > > > *From:* Tony Przygienda > *Sent:* Monday, June 14, 2021 10:22 AM > *To:* Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > *Cc:* gjshep@gmail.com; zhang.zheng ; BIER WG < > bier@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC > > > > > > > > AFAIS the rev should include all the lessons we learned since 8279 was > smote ;-) > > > > Initial architecture was written in a very accessible form, alas could > have benefited from more rigour. Trade-off taken was to move fast with > folks who were largely mind-melted based on long experience in networking= & > multicast problems and framework which was malleable rather than formaliz= e > things into a strict corset readable for less experienced folks. The rigo= ur > would benefit us now IMO, especially since lots of work fleshed the detai= ls > out and newest discussions show that lots of lessons that old-hands in > multicast learned are not necessarily obvious. Things like "how do you > route underlay?" which led to BAR/IPA discussions or "can you run BIER > without an IGP" which led to lots of yang discussions to allow for > controller only deployments or even BIER-TE which basically uses BIER to > interpret the bitmask completely differently should be codified in 8279bi= s > IMO. > > > > -- tony > > > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg > > > > Just to ensure is the final goal to update 8279 to include bier forwardin= g > with all BIER encapsulation including MPLS, non-MPLS and IPv6 encap? And/= Or > is it to include bier forwarding over tunnels including mpls, ipv6, for F= RR > etc=E2=80=A6 ? > > > > Thanks > > Hooman > > > > *From:* BIER *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd > *Sent:* Monday, June 14, 2021 9:47 AM > *To:* zhang.zheng > *Cc:* BIER WG > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC > > > > Thank you, Sandy! > > > > Anyone else willing to help? > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM wrote: > > Hi Gerg, Tony, > May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more detailed= ? > Thank you very much! > Best regards, > Sandy > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA**:*gjshep > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA**:*bier; > > *=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F**:*2021-06-12 21:05:49 > > *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**:[Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC= * > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER t= o > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The followin= g > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to t= he > list: > > > > =E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > > =E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change. Th= is is the reason why BIER > began as experimental - narrow > > point in hourglass=E2=80=9D > > =E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding > plane =E2=80=93 is the foundation from which > > the rest of the architecture grows. > > =E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the ti= me of the > original WG Experimental Charter. > > =E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those in= volved in > the WG from the beginning. But it is also > > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > update the BIER architecture to make this > > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance = of > the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understoo= d > by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. > Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was > complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com * *M 301 502-1347* --00000000000036a36005c4c79637 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would like to help.

Thanks=C2=A0

Gyan=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 10:46 PM Bidgo= li, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:

This time replying to all = =F0=9F=98=8A

=C2=A0

Thanks for the explanation, sure I can assist.

=C2=A0

Regards

Hooman

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 10:22 AM
To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>
Cc: gjshep@gma= il.com; zhang.zheng <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC

=C2=A0

<individual>

=C2=A0

AFAIS the rev should include all the lessons we lear= ned since 8279 was smote ;-)

=C2=A0

Initial architecture was written in a very accessibl= e form, alas could have benefited from more rigour. Trade-off taken was to = move fast with folks who were largely mind-melted based on long experience = in networking & multicast problems and framework which was malleable rather than formalize things into a stri= ct corset readable for less experienced folks. The rigour would benefit us = now IMO, especially since lots of work fleshed the details out and newest d= iscussions show that lots of lessons that old-hands in multicast learned are not necessarily obvious. Things li= ke "how do you route underlay?" which led to BAR/IPA discussions = or "can you run BIER without an IGP" which led to lots of yang di= scussions to allow for controller only deployments or even BIER-TE which basically uses BIER to interpret the bitmask completely= differently should be codified in 8279bis IMO.

=C2=A0

-- tony

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nok= ia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi Greg

=C2=A0

Just to ensure is the final goal to update 8279 to i= nclude bier forwarding with all BIER encapsulation including MPLS, non-MPLS= and IPv6 encap? And/Or is it to include bier forwarding over tunnels including mpls, ipv6, for FRR etc=E2=80=A6 ?

=C2=A0

Thanks

Hooman

=C2=A0

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 9:47 AM
To: zhang.zheng <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Cc: BIER WG <b= ier@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC

=C2=A0

Thank you, Sandy!=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Anyone else willing to help?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> = wrote:

Hi Gerg, Tony,
May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more detailed? =
Thank you very much!
Best regards,
Sandy

=E5=8E=9F= =E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:gjshep<gjshep@g= mail.com>

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:bier<bier@ietf.org>;

=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F:2021-06-12 21:05:49

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:[Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC <= /p>

_________________________________________= ______
BIER=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

A big "thank you" to all WG members who ha= ve worked so hard to get BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our= work is not done. The following bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to the list:=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296

=E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don= =E2=80=99t change.=C2=A0 This is the reason why BIER began as experimental = - narrow

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 point in hourglass=E2=80= =9D

=E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point = of the hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane =E2=80=93 =C2=A0is= the foundation from which=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rest of the architec= ture grows.

=E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the = BIER WG ADs at the time of the original WG Experimental Charter.

=E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional = knowledge of those involved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a core tenet of the laye= red and scalable architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed a= s=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 well-understood by the o= riginal WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to ma= ke this=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responsibility clear for= all future contributors.

=C2=A0

RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of th= e WG. It has since been made clear that the authors at that time had assume= d the importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understood by the community at large. That no lon= ger seems to be the case. Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before t= he draft of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the assignment of the IEE= E BIER ethertype.

=C2=A0

This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to b= etter define BIER at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard en= capsulation mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core tenet of a layered and scalable archite= cture of the Internet.

=C2=A0

If you would like to tackle this update, please repl= y to this thread.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
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Thu, 17 Jun 2021 00:46:53 +0000 From: Michael McBride To: Martin Vigoureux , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints Thread-Index: AQHXViEGsdpu21G7XUqqzUfRRLnly6sOwMaAgAS8+YCAA+/d0A== Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 00:46:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: nokia.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;nokia.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [108.197.145.62] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c4e2f923-1e76-449e-344c-08d931296693 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR13MB2293: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR13MB2582.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c4e2f923-1e76-449e-344c-08d931296693 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jun 2021 00:46:53.2150 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FXGnmkOpWVOjia6AeRyWEj05p0GpeV8E7Kpwsw/VU3BVEhf/KMfBjxO/dTSk5DfD5eNOZ5n2X8tWkl53WxCs8w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR13MB2293 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 00:47:04 -0000 Howdy, Le 2021-06-11 =E0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =E9crit=A0: > Dear Martin, >=20 > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it ref= lects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is L= 2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, which = should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal interpretat= ion. >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and reac= h consensus on. My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture.=20 There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use = of IPv6 with bier. This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. Perha= ps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG?=20 mike >=20 > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they h= ave been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and have= been proven by implementation and test. > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted BIER= solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. >=20 > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would like= to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER arch= itecture. > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does not = comply with BIER architecture. >=20 > Thank you very much for your help. >=20 > Jingrong >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin=20 > Vigoureux > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > To: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints >=20 > WG >=20 > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. >=20 > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, and= I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mailin= g list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. >=20 > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will = make a general statement. >=20 > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in the= sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen sometimes= as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points are= more problematic than others. > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a variety= of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a particu= lar one. > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itself,= a concern. > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasions,= their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they will = pay attention to that in the future. >=20 > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way thi= s was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoption pol= l is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice, and= in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have litt= le arguments to go back on this. >=20 > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions r= egarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific docume= nt which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after this e= -mail. >=20 > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open disc= ussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on the= way forward. >=20 >=20 > Martin >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserve > d=3D0 >=20 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurewei= .com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%= 7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC= JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJOI0= NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Wed Jun 16 20:54:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767453A193E for ; 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Wed, 16 Jun 2021 20:54:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 23:54:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael McBride Cc: Martin Vigoureux , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001abb3e05c4ee2a32" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 03:54:38 -0000 --0000000000001abb3e05c4ee2a32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some thoughts on future progression possibilities for BIERv6. As the BIER architecture is based on simple simple encapsulation and layering L2 1/2 MPLS BIER or Non MPLS BIER Ethernet - BIERin6. BIERv6 with utilizes the IPv6 data plane falls out of scope of the BIER charter even though maybe a viable solution due to the fact that it utilizes the IPv6 data plane for encoding the BIER header is where the solution ran into trouble gaining consensus within the WG. So it=E2=80=99s not that the solution is not a solid or viable solution, bu= t the fact that it relies on the IPv6 data plane for encoding BIER layer which ends up being unfortunately out of scope with BIER WG. A good example of a similar issue related to a technology that uses the IPv6 data plane falling out of scope of the intended WG where the architecture resides is SRv6. SRv6 PGM RFC8986 and SRv6 SRH RFC 8754 are part of the Spring WG Segment routing architectures, however all the development fell out of the WG as Spring is chartered for Source Routing framework, however since SRv6 utilizes the IPv6 data plane it fell outside of the scope of the Spring WG. So both SRv6 PGM RFC8986 and SRv6 SRH RFC 8754 were developed, adopted and progressed to RFC in 6MAN which owns the IPv6 data plane and any technology that utilizes the IPv6 data plane. During the development, WG adoption and WGLC both WGs Spring and 6MAN collaborated on the development of the specification. There were some definite snags with RFC 8200 and following the IPv6 specification to a letter but in the end we all came to agreement and both drafts finally progressed to RFC. I think BIERin6 as it utilizes the IPv6 data plane could be progressed in 6MAN are my thoughts and developed. Both WGs would collaborate together to progress the draft. My 2 cents Kind Regards Gyan On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 8:47 PM Michael McBride wrote: > Howdy, > > Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit : > > Dear Martin, > > > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it > reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. > >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is > L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. > >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, whic= h > should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal > interpretation. > > >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and > reach consensus on. > > My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply > unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. > > There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great us= e > of IPv6 with bier. This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. > Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? > > mike > > > > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they > have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and > have been proven by implementation and test. > > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted > BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would > like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER > architecture. > > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does no= t > comply with BIER architecture. > > > > Thank you very much for your help. > > > > Jingrong > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin > > Vigoureux > > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > > To: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > WG > > > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, > and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier > mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wil= l > make a general statement. > > > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in > the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen > sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some > points are more problematic than others. > > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a > variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with = a > particular one. > > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in > itself, a concern. > > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some > occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trus= t > they will pay attention to that in the future. > > > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way > this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoptio= n > poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice= , > and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have > little arguments to go back on this. > > > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions > regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific > document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time afte= r > this e-mail. > > > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open > discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes = on > the way forward. > > > > > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= . > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fu= t > > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > > p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserv= e > > d=3D0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurew= ei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi= LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJO= I0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com * *M 301 502-1347* --0000000000001abb3e05c4ee2a32 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some thoughts on future = progression possibilities for BIERv6.

As the BIER architecture is based on simple simple encapsulat= ion and layering L2 1/2 MPLS BIER or Non MPLS BIER Ethernet - BIERin6. =C2= =A0

BIERv6 with utilizes= the =C2=A0IPv6 data plane falls out of scope of the BIER charter even thou= gh maybe a viable solution due to the fact that it utilizes the IPv6 data p= lane for encoding the BIER header is where the solution ran into trouble ga= ining consensus within the WG. =C2=A0

So it=E2=80=99s not that the solution is not a solid or viabl= e solution, but the fact that it relies on the IPv6 data plane for encoding= BIER layer which ends up being unfortunately out of scope with BIER WG.

A good example of a simila= r issue related to a technology that uses the IPv6 data plane falling out o= f scope of the intended WG where the architecture resides is SRv6.

SRv6 PGM RFC8986 and SRv6 SRH RF= C 8754 are part of the Spring WG Segment routing architectures, however all= the development fell out of the WG as Spring is chartered for Source Routi= ng framework, however since SRv6 utilizes the IPv6 data plane it fell outsi= de of the scope of the Spring WG. =C2=A0

<= div dir=3D"auto">So both SRv6 PGM RFC8986 and SRv6 SRH RFC 8754 were = developed, adopted and progressed to RFC in 6MAN which owns the IPv6 data p= lane and any technology that utilizes=C2=A0=C2=A0the IPv6 data plane= . =C2=A0

During the deve= lopment, WG adoption and WGLC both WGs Spring and 6MAN collaborated on the = development of the specification.=C2=A0 There were some definite snags with= RFC 8200 and following the IPv6 specification to a letter but in the end w= e all came to agreement and both drafts finally progressed to RFC.

I think BIERi= n6 as it utilizes the IPv6 data plane could be progressed in 6MAN are my th= oughts and developed.=C2=A0 Both WGs would collaborate together to progress= the draft.

My 2 cents=C2=A0

Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 8:47 PM Michael McBr= ide <mmcbrid= e@futurewei.com> wrote:
Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Dear Martin,
>
> We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think= it reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
>>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, = which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
>>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, = which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal inter= pretation.

>it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and r= each consensus on.

My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture.

There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use = of IPv6 with bier. This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. Perha= ps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG?

mike

>
> For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think the= y have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and h= ave been proven by implementation and test.
> Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted B= IER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network.
>
> We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would l= ike to propose two options about what should be done in the next step:
> 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER a= rchitecture.
> 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does n= ot comply with BIER architecture.
>
> Thank you very much for your help.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Vigoureux
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints
>
> WG
>
> First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.
>
> I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, = and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mai= ling list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.
>
> I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wi= ll make a general statement.
>
> It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in = the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen someti= mes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points = are more problematic than others.
> Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a vari= ety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a part= icular one.
> It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itse= lf, a concern.
> I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasio= ns, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they wi= ll pay attention to that in the future.
>
> About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way = this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adopt= ion poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practi= ce, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I ha= ve little arguments to go back on this.
>
> The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussion= s regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific doc= ument which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after thi= s e-mail.
>
> Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open d= iscussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on = the way forward.
>
>
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.= protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut=
> ure= wei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a
> 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj=
> oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am= p;am
> p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&amp;r= eserve
> d=3D0
>

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BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
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--

=

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0<= /p>

Email gyan.s.mishra@ver= izon.com<= br>

M 301 502-1347


--0000000000001abb3e05c4ee2a32-- From nobody Wed Jun 16 22:08:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E483A083D for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 22:08:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EJzcdvq1nLsC for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 22:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3462D3A084D for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 22:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id i13so2100505edb.9 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 22:08:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=WdmFl1gr0gUmnMao0WLfDd+BffcLL9P5SZP+qtwc8ME=; b=UifwRPXtM4O+DFlC0+GpjQmegvHGiGv6KG+Lru0yGdKjRtmYlSu+Zm+A3Bvc66ouH8 lS4H7fIu8Mq64MXOEzrgksPVxJYOkC5nL/ZlCu2+ooN6ki1c4CYMWhsXe+Hwi6pLly5U p/j8zQVXG6r+N6Pi8jRG+rNgww27h9g5P5W2AgGvJRQnuofosQ726fW5e/HEy29RuZrc 7CWbev7BcwbCYN0FusG5dYT7pb1QzA3ohv1VfODyULQVBivryo2iiIGv84a6GknrokB+ eV0R1rWvqy6TIMf9pj2choRoJoUfeIqR2PFJsCEpatsd7LQTO/ZgVmGUZy6CnHpmvX+V GD8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WdmFl1gr0gUmnMao0WLfDd+BffcLL9P5SZP+qtwc8ME=; b=Gn6hung48geyO/Q86CinHMEy/nnkU9sLsaBHagzfzK5wD9thPWTspgIPXAH07OZLCp qSVyT0JKKmo/CjOkQeGAQxrK8jG0DyY6RZ1e2JorSYNyJRJZUg+tOeJdf2C+2Klyx06G hJZOWMEBgdWB0mKNuewCISRWLkGKG7ZFZRBp02fidi9j0LGLB2HMF4YVlHyfY5NxTUCO if83PYyhNzD+hgbuYWNZowOXv9F9gHYvvqhd9mV3nPEjgviZoXYFGYDVOGD2meymkMa8 ab0Hjz5uE9S7bhjtqaOme4CNhKXjEscc3ny8Ttd/9O/hw7vgxXJ/QMXzjXBTXH2P3A7l oyDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532/fZTtinIr9vgL+FT4EqRqbxox7nEdEJWxVs8hhyhRRNT4ijkX HHWo0OocRuK85wbvllPULIS8hvRcKNkyrCSwPUA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8XYKCZRFv91bVM8dnkOpUZI2nETdPhFTxfS/61EEXsbCjaS3G5EzCL6/ioEnAicHzRosCDJj2BcffTFqVbVg= X-Received: by 2002:a50:afe2:: with SMTP id h89mr4066159edd.308.1623906495896; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 22:08:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 22:08:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael McBride Cc: Martin Vigoureux , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d61de405c4ef3120" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 05:08:29 -0000 --000000000000d61de405c4ef3120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inline: On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride wrote: > Howdy, > > Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit : > > Dear Martin, > > > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it > reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. > >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is > L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. > >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, whic= h > should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal > interpretation. > > >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and > reach consensus on. > > My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply > unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. > GS - Correct > There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great us= e > of IPv6 with bier. GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the authors for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating layer dependencies and we are still waiting. > This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted at having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaborating. It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. We've tried. > Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? > GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck. Greg > mike > > > > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they > have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and > have been proven by implementation and test. > > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted > BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would > like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER > architecture. > > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does no= t > comply with BIER architecture. > > > > Thank you very much for your help. > > > > Jingrong > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin > > Vigoureux > > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > > To: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > WG > > > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, > and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier > mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wil= l > make a general statement. > > > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in > the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen > sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some > points are more problematic than others. > > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a > variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with = a > particular one. > > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in > itself, a concern. > > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some > occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trus= t > they will pay attention to that in the future. > > > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way > this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoptio= n > poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice= , > and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have > little arguments to go back on this. > > > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions > regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific > document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time afte= r > this e-mail. > > > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open > discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes = on > the way forward. > > > > > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= . > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fu= t > > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > > p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserv= e > > d=3D0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurew= ei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi= LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJO= I0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --000000000000d61de405c4ef3120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inline:

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBri= de <mmcbride@futurewei.com= > wrote:
Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Dear Martin,
>
> We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think= it reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
>>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, = which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
>>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, = which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal inter= pretation.

>it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and r= each consensus on.

My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture.
<= br>
GS - Correct
=C2=A0
There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use = of IPv6 with bier.

GS - "Great use&qu= ot; is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the authors for years w= hat the compelling use case is to motivate creating layer dependencies and = we are still waiting.
=C2=A0
This was prese= nted in 6man with positive feedback.

GS - N= o, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no issues wi= th it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work through the BI= ER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted at having to repe= atedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted members of oth= er lists, and having our questions ignored. You are essentially DOS-ing the= WG process rather than listening and collaborating. It's clear you are= unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. We've tried.
=
=C2=A0
Perhaps the time has come to propose thi= s work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG?

GS -= I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck.

Greg
=C2=A0
mike

>
> For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think the= y have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and h= ave been proven by implementation and test.
> Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted B= IER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network.
>
> We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would l= ike to propose two options about what should be done in the next step:
> 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER a= rchitecture.
> 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does n= ot comply with BIER architecture.
>
> Thank you very much for your help.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Vigoureux
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints
>
> WG
>
> First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.
>
> I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, = and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mai= ling list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.
>
> I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wi= ll make a general statement.
>
> It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in = the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen someti= mes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points = are more problematic than others.
> Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a vari= ety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a part= icular one.
> It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itse= lf, a concern.
> I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasio= ns, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they wi= ll pay attention to that in the future.
>
> About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way = this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adopt= ion poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practi= ce, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I ha= ve little arguments to go back on this.
>
> The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussion= s regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific doc= ument which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after thi= s e-mail.
>
> Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open d= iscussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on = the way forward.
>
>
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.= protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut=
> ure= wei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a
> 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj=
> oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am= p;am
> p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&amp;r= eserve
> d=3D0
>

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://nam11.safelinks.protecti= on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbie= r&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee00= 8d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027= %7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW= wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DdcV1PufJOI0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xi= HasDrnGTQs%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
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boundary="_000_BYAPR13MB25829C397A9AD680C8D47296D00E9BYAPR13MB2582namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR13MB2582.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 32ddb931-3520-420b-5505-08d9315344f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jun 2021 05:46:35.5397 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: E2uPc4PY0KN4AxXjKXLfT25fBa24L+bFedv08baWK2FAzfM3Nh6Z8g6giweayifCczQuhlbiFQX3nscDc2jwfQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR13MB2437 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 05:46:46 -0000 --_000_BYAPR13MB25829C397A9AD680C8D47296D00E9BYAPR13MB2582namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And around and around we go. It's at least good to see that the consistent = tone in this wg hasn't changed. Congrats, you win. mike From: Greg Shepherd Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2021 10:08 PM To: Michael McBride Cc: Martin Vigoureux ; Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <= xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints Inline: On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride > wrote: Howdy, Le 2021-06-11 =E0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =E9crit : > Dear Martin, > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it ref= lects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is L= 2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, which = should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal interpretat= ion. >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and reac= h consensus on. My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture. GS - Correct There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use = of IPv6 with bier. GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the author= s for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating layer depe= ndencies and we are still waiting. This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no iss= ues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work through = the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted at having t= o repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted members = of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are essentially DOS-i= ng the WG process rather than listening and collaborating. It's clear you a= re unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. We've tried. Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck. Greg mike > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they h= ave been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and have= been proven by implementation and test. > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted BIER= solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would like= to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER arch= itecture. > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does not = comply with BIER architecture. > > Thank you very much for your help. > > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Martin > Vigoureux > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > To: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > WG > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, and= I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mailin= g list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will = make a general statement. > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in the= sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen sometimes= as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points are= more problematic than others. > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a variety= of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a particu= lar one. > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itself,= a concern. > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasions,= their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they will = pay attention to that in the future. > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way thi= s was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoption pol= l is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice, and= in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have litt= le arguments to go back on this. > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions r= egarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific docume= nt which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after this e= -mail. > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open disc= ussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on the= way forward. > > > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7= Cmmcbride%40fut > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff= 2a3b240189c753a > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserve > d=3D0 > _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurewei= .com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%= 7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC= JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJOI0= NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --_000_BYAPR13MB25829C397A9AD680C8D47296D00E9BYAPR13MB2582namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And around and around we go. It’s at least goo= d to see that the consistent tone in this wg hasn’t changed. Congrats= , you win.

 

mike

 

From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> =
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2021 10:08 PM
To: Michael McBride <mmcbride@futurewei.com>
Cc: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>; Xiejingrong= (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints

 

Inline:

 

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride <= mmcbride@futurewei.com> wr= ote:

Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =E0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =E9crit :
> Dear Martin,
>
> We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it = reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
>>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, whic= h is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
>>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, = which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal inter= pretation.

>it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and r= each consensus on.

My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture.

 

GS - Correct

 

There are many of us who believe using EH for the bi= tstring is a great use of IPv6 with bier.

 

GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. = The WG has been asking the authors for years what the compelling use case i= s to motivate creating layer dependencies and we are still waiting.

 

This was presented in 6man with positive feedback.

 

GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors we= re told 6man had no issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work = needed to work through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rathe= r exhausted at having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted members of other lis= ts, and having our questions ignored. You are essentially DOS-ing the WG pr= ocess rather than listening and collaborating. It's clear you are unwilling= to work collaboratively within the group. We've tried.

 

Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an= IPv6 EH friendly WG?

 

GS - I trust you understand how the standards proces= s works. Good luck.

 

Greg

 

mike

>
> For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think the= y have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and h= ave been proven by implementation and test.
> Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted B= IER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network.
>
> We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would l= ike to propose two options about what should be done in the next step:
> 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER a= rchitecture.
> 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does n= ot comply with BIER architecture.
>
> Thank you very much for your help.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Vigoureux
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints
>
> WG
>
> First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.
>
> I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, = and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mai= ling list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.
>
> I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wi= ll make a general statement.
>
> It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in = the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen someti= mes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points = are more problematic than others.
> Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a vari= ety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a part= icular one.
> It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itse= lf, a concern.
> I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasio= ns, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they wi= ll pay attention to that in the future.
>
> About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way = this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoption = poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice, = and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this.=
>
> The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussion= s regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific doc= ument which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after thi= s e-mail.
>
> Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open d= iscussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on = the way forward.
>
>
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= .
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%= 40fut
> urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a<= br> > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj=
> oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am= p;am
> p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&amp;r= eserve
> d=3D0
>

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--_000_BYAPR13MB25829C397A9AD680C8D47296D00E9BYAPR13MB2582namp_-- From nobody Thu Jun 17 01:55:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290C73A141F for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 01:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjtzSgUa69A8 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 01:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B2A53A141E for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 01:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id o5so492016iob.4 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 01:55:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KEhytKqJE2qHR/8qJxr07LLeZClsKnCBhIOO73fIld4=; b=rb+o3GCI8cP/95I/i2fx8pwtIcs2KrPZf2Ho1iUuo6A6NaFZnRzbbX8bZVc33g21P+ m3KcGrqz8YQhTBPoDdpmKxaiTjc/cPfHDRQM34R1bJiIqMC/jdZKttwZclGsj9yBqk2Z dcXgU2bVvXQ5VtXeA0F1sTJRuf+lrfSkKLg70bl4sQSkfgDdcyO1FAq+UktqS/spRAhC NWhKGkc1SqSioY6apbAMgbYYJtGqucqD4Gm6WbIaYR+UxouvysT1eIuxXhIxV5/MFEey tCnHc24/kmhJd4B/sQ77mZIKQrpJs/q3bRCBvbpgG/47j3pKk7pTU6iKdwdgVfYhdJ/g wrBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KEhytKqJE2qHR/8qJxr07LLeZClsKnCBhIOO73fIld4=; b=ry9Gh1UkzLZi3qEemmRPGToatMTJhRKdFZBVGiBmNwwl1U0esTTSJlKj3e2BdrwCMZ QobI2FSA3IfqFyqnmbC8XEaUVRKeFbUZmsTqxCyMjx4KkNjZVU58HYPfnpxP8T8x81/V aWt4SUq+sCJwPWszLCfIa3wYgh+nk/xv1Fie37r9J8/abAXwNIMCZ2sEv6GeajJBOLnU NxJNhgUJ+by7z9i7TMbxFElC9CEzz7rZ8lDKxYQai90KlSp6MuAai6uk5t7sOXwXoq8Q FtW6159f03dGgUxocJoFL+bXq5laeSPA/EY9bRTMWbFX+t/PFkXRROOdQFOr36ak95EY ZEVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531v/SQ7BbQ/9xLnuO//p+S6gLA6x3vPMpK4L87CpJEZAau4zqyq nh56cie3ewgll/r3gBRqyytGNquwIfeQsPwXaJE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+1XC/yAb6yRIBDf5HLJ7TjKryeEcXUX6/1f7niTW820RDTjkKdSt/DXGTF/DBT2STyFS6aOp4xQqfK0M2N0k= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:8810:: with SMTP id l16mr1880120ioj.31.1623920145380; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 01:55:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:55:09 +0200 Message-ID: To: Greg Shepherd Cc: Michael McBride , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier@ietf.org" , Martin Vigoureux Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068bb4a05c4f25f11" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:55:51 -0000 --00000000000068bb4a05c4f25f11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 7:08 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > Inline: > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride > wrote: > >> Howdy, >> >> Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit : >> > Dear Martin, >> > >> > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it >> reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. >> >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which i= s >> L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. >> >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, >> which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal >> interpretation. >> >> >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and >> reach consensus on. >> >> My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply >> unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. >> > > GS - Correct > > >> There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great >> use of IPv6 with bier. > > > GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the > authors for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating > layer dependencies and we are still waiting. > > >> This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. > > > GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no > issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work > through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted a= t > having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quote= d > members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are > essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaboratin= g. > It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. > We've tried. > > IETF has documented processes, we run the WG on those. If authors don't like the process or see it violated, it is not the job of the WG to change/adopt/invent IETF processes until they deliver results that rubberstamps the authors' opinions and desires and the process itself provides recourse which the authors already took. So we had this shadowy round-abouting key technical questions while trying to bend the processes going for quite a long time and burning lots of cycles and patience. Then, unless we have serious new technical arguments or answer to use-case/necessity for non-orthogonal, layer shortcutting new encoding all the other stuff on the thread is in fact just DoS'ing the process more and more AFAIS. -- tony --00000000000068bb4a05c4f25f11 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 7:08 AM Greg Shep= herd <gjshep@gmail= .com> wrote:
Inline:

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael Mc= Bride <mmcbr= ide@futurewei.com> wrote:
Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Dear Martin,
>
> We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think= it reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
>>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, = which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
>>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, = which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal inter= pretation.

>it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and r= each consensus on.

My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture.
<= br>
GS - Correct
=C2=A0
There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use = of IPv6 with bier.

GS - "Great use&qu= ot; is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the authors for years w= hat the compelling use case is to motivate creating layer dependencies and = we are still waiting.
=C2=A0
This was presented in 6man with positive feedback.

GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the author= s were told 6man had no issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the w= ork needed to work through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is r= ather exhausted at having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned i= ssues, miss-quoted members of other lists, and having our questions ignored= . You are essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and coll= aborating. It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within = the group. We've tried.
=C2=A0

IETF has documented processes, we run the WG on tho= se. If authors don't like the process or see it violated, it is not the= job of the WG to change/adopt/invent IETF processes until they deliver res= ults that rubberstamps the authors' opinions and desires and the proces= s itself provides recourse which the authors already took. So we had this s= hadowy round-abouting key technical questions while trying to bend the proc= esses going for quite a long time and burning lots of cycles and patience. = Then, unless we have serious new technical arguments or answer to use-case/= necessity for non-orthogonal, layer shortcutting new encoding all the other= stuff on the thread is in fact just DoS'ing the process more and more = AFAIS.

-- tony

=C2= =A0
--00000000000068bb4a05c4f25f11-- From nobody Thu Jun 17 07:37:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9EA3A22B4 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:37:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLYTO=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gZ7Iu65gxkZf for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x632.google.com (mail-ej1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 653DC3A22A4 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x632.google.com with SMTP id nb6so10210764ejc.10 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:36:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=WZXcHaQcJDD+ZvynogiT9KT7Y0dkDOqE7+2Lqu0PgdM=; b=maUaVk70skmutrnEfHNYrzkNynOOe4IuAuYu1EVJBjV0Wm+SeyCEebcIKWObDMvUcb 083h1HD0YPgeRe57IBuT3ayPbbOcsXrV9WYmpHWjsgcyWJzu67cry9WCsRaGzjCkhN3K nJmusQHNDXv41gGdBGZPYlaqujryJfAluszp/8yKP7O9naakPANOcOpQodwAM07CLnCU my9yRwAi4kgoiX5cXhvowwN4iSzql60Nvc5stuTeDRBTzmXrxuRVinFt8KXHwbV7ViIW YUk+CeBBJ8/VZrplrCCSkSYaalGRTlFpgnUTdifyRAitbztvM1ToBMBCf2HDVvFnPU+m mNfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=WZXcHaQcJDD+ZvynogiT9KT7Y0dkDOqE7+2Lqu0PgdM=; b=jrjepfHOFRFi9DcpAnsxI/+FAKqaUWCI/HYT12O4yaw3zzyi/YCLECxqf0iWylYl/l lraykxOf4M/5IVX8k5o+RimxeGGlxdPK918+JBl74r67pCmgwvfubLB7HcQfjjQTanBn hKQ2ICHRcEtNNMGPuqqjtFGtD4xevy6CVpCNv5F4J3MEJxJTt4YKxYKiyktgceKWWP+X i9Mni5XwA/OWVGRa+PpMTm4rnRKiQDAA+Qx76VoV7Ua6BcjFAFFmxHXdS92gLr+aIm5c kqz6ZVQO2E6/Xr8omB8jPNl/jqdmVlkOK3AqhMczedbKajORSxMbqsK2WGbqY1BzUdw7 FrQw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532PfTXEisllViijRs3N1iCG3SuX72vWxfMs7TGBP7p3AzjFKPtd ACm4InumKEzm3z7hfAAl+GOeNvZG0XJsM1SJyVXPX//xzZw1yg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7em1CJIHbOxJQE3Ze7rgrTDWGfsoUUMp6myDrQekutpG/42VAT6WgRo6LRF4ySzDwaKvANAD9z3Ssskt0Okw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:c1d0:: with SMTP id bw16mr5721434ejb.146.1623940614853; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:36:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:36:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c16e305c4f723c9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 14:37:03 -0000 --0000000000007c16e305c4f723c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe we have a solid group of volunteers to update the doc: zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com zzhang@juniper.net hayabusagsm@gmail.com Thank you for your continued contribution to the work and for stepping up to this task. - Greg (Chairs) On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:05 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER t= o > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The followin= g > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to t= he > list: > > =E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > =E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change. Th= is is the reason why > BIER began as experimental - narrow > point in hourglass=E2=80=9D > =E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding > plane =E2=80=93 is the foundation from which > the rest of the architecture grows. > =E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the ti= me of > the original WG Experimental Charter. > =E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those in= volved > in the WG from the beginning. But it is also > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > update the BIER architecture to make this > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance = of > the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understoo= d > by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. > Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was > complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > --0000000000007c16e305c4f723c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe we have a solid group of volunteers to update the doc:<= div>

Thank you for y= our continued contribution to the work and for stepping=C2=A0up to this tas= k.=C2=A0

- Greg
(Chairs)

<= /div>

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:05 AM Greg Shepherd= <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote:
A big "= thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER to wh= ere it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The following bu= llet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to t= he list:=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296
=E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change.= =C2=A0 This is the reason why BIER began as experimental - narrow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 point in hourglass=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass= =E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane =E2=80=93 =C2=A0is the foundation = from which=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rest of the arch= itecture grows.
=E2= =80=A2 This was the position of= the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of the original WG Experimental C= harter.
=E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/inst= itutional knowledge of those involved in the WG from the beginning. But it = is also=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a core tenet of the lay= ered and scalable architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed = as=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 well-understood by the origi= nal WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to make t= his=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responsibility clear for al= l future contributors.

RFC8279 began as a draft at= the very beginning of the WG. It has since been made clear that the author= s at that time had assumed the importance of the forwarding plane as the fo= undation of architecture was well understood by the community at large. Tha= t no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began = before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the assignment of= the IEEE BIER ethertype.

This is a call for volun= teers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at the forwarding plane, and = clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation mechanisms can be used to transit B= IER packets, while preserving the core tenet of a layered and scalable arch= itecture of the Internet.

If you would like to tac= kle this update, please reply to this thread.

Than= ks,
Greg
(Chairs)
--0000000000007c16e305c4f723c9-- From nobody Thu Jun 17 09:51:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC333A26A5 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 09:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LnSwZQo_Nx52 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 09:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE50B3A26A3 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 09:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml743-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4G5SR30cZzz6K6Xr; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 00:38:07 +0800 (CST) Received: from nkgeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.153) by fraeml743-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.224) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 18:51:16 +0200 Received: from dggpemm500008.china.huawei.com (7.185.36.136) by nkgeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 00:51:14 +0800 Received: from dggpemm500008.china.huawei.com ([7.185.36.136]) by dggpemm500008.china.huawei.com ([7.185.36.136]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 00:51:14 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: "gjshep@gmail.com" , m00759202 CC: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier@ietf.org" , Martin Vigoureux Thread-Topic: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints Thread-Index: AQHXViEKhd2qqIBYvUuulAIbWZ3NrasOOqqAgAS8+YCAA/qGgIAASPkAgAFJ6TA= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:51:14 +0000 Message-ID: <5eedd48e04ec461289339777760669f2@huawei.com> References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.52.242.105] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5eedd48e04ec461289339777760669f2huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 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bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810CE3A2B5F for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 12:36:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xvqd1X0-_GqT for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 12:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 160A13A2B5B for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 12:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (vs3.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.124]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 15HJaZVf027037; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 20:36:35 +0100 Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02A54604B; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 20:36:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901904604A; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 20:36:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs3.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 20:36:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.47.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 15HJaYVC016409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 17 Jun 2021 20:36:34 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: , "'Michael McBride'" Cc: "'Xiejingrong \(Jingrong\)'" , , "'Martin Vigoureux'" References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 20:36:33 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <05ad01d763b0$14c83ce0$3e58b6a0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05AE_01D763B8.768D8F40" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQIz6PcN+LWzHza25ZzLMNMxbdzDIwHuKUcSARdjA7EBC5mncwI3SYIMqi1IwoA= X-Originating-IP: 84.93.47.18 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.0.1017-26226.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--21.054-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--21.054-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.1.0.2034-8.6.1017-26226.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--21.054100-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: mGV7xPP3pcV9dA5a4gy28N0NLp60dt7b455LhsBRVm10zarmKAz/XmzB ijri5+RVEVbhXpAxlrk5z95PrMjPJOMbuVzdyYYaIx/OqCk5J10ekU8KuEZI3ydZzA/c4ScjiH9 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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:36:55 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05AE_01D763B8.768D8F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, =20 Is it necessary to take a hostile and aggressive approach to these = discussions? I am sure you are frustrated and want to move forward, but = it feels like you are shutting down discussions rather than trying to = resolve them. =20 Telling someone that they are =E2=80=9Cunwilling to work collaboratively = within the group=E2=80=9D is probably not conducive to encouraging them = to work collaboratively. =20 My understanding was that the AD has engaged with you to work on the = clarity of your communication, and your email is certainly very clear. = But I don=E2=80=99t think it is very nice. We look to those in = leadership positions to set the tone for the work in the IETF, and you = need to do better. =20 Thanks, Adrian =20 =20 From: BIER On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd Sent: 17 June 2021 06:08 To: Michael McBride Cc: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; bier@ietf.org; = Martin Vigoureux Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints =20 Inline: =20 On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride > wrote: Howdy, Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit : > Dear Martin, >=20 > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it = reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which = is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, = which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal = interpretation. >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and = reach consensus on. My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply = unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture.=20 =20 GS - Correct =20 There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great = use of IPv6 with bier.=20 =20 GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the = authors for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating = layer dependencies and we are still waiting. =20 This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. =20 GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no = issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work = through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted = at having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, = miss-quoted members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. = You are essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and = collaborating. It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively = within the group. We've tried. =20 Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly = WG?=20 =20 GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck. =20 Greg =20 mike >=20 > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think = they have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, = and have been proven by implementation and test. > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted = BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. >=20 > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would = like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER = architecture. > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does = not comply with BIER architecture. >=20 > Thank you very much for your help. >=20 > Jingrong >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Martin=20 > Vigoureux > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > To: bier@ietf.org =20 > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints >=20 > WG >=20 > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. >=20 > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, = and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier = mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. >=20 > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I = will make a general statement. >=20 > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in = the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen = sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that = some points are more problematic than others. > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a = variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with = a particular one. > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in = itself, a concern. > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some = occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I = trust they will pay attention to that in the future. >=20 > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way = this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an = adoption poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is = common practice, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG = discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this. >=20 > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the = discussions regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the = specific document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some = time after this e-mail. >=20 > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open = discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes = on the way forward. >=20 >=20 > Martin >=20 > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org =20 > = https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ietf.org = %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut > urewei.com = %7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > = p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserve > d=3D0 >=20 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org =20 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier = = &data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d9= 2f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%= 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1ha= WwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJOI0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiH= asDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier ------=_NextPart_000_05AE_01D763B8.768D8F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greg,

 

Is it = necessary to take a hostile and aggressive approach to these = discussions? I am sure you are frustrated and want to move forward, but = it feels like you are shutting down discussions rather than trying to = resolve them.

 

Telling = someone that they are =E2=80=9Cunwilling to work collaboratively = within the group=E2=80=9D is probably not conducive to encouraging them = to work collaboratively.

 

My = understanding was that the AD has engaged with you to work on the = clarity of your communication, and your email is certainly very clear. = But I don=E2=80=99t think it is very nice. We look to those in = leadership positions to set the tone for the work in the IETF, and you = need to do better.

 

Thanks,

Adrian

 

 

From: BIER = <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Greg = Shepherd
Sent: 17 June 2021 06:08
To: Michael = McBride <mmcbride@futurewei.com>
Cc: Xiejingrong = (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org; Martin = Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: = [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints

 

Inline:

 

On = Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride <mmcbride@futurewei.com> = wrote:

Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong = (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit :
> Dear Martin,
>
> = We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it = reflects the key technical differences between us and the = chairs.
>>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER = architecture, which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 = dependent.
>>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate = BIER architecture, which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead = of other informal interpretation.

>it appears to me that this = is the discussion the WG needs to have and reach consensus on.

My = take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply = unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. =

 

GS - Correct

 

There are = many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use of IPv6 = with bier.

 

GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. = The WG has been asking the authors for years what the compelling use = case is to motivate creating layer dependencies and we are still = waiting.

 

This was = presented in 6man with positive = feedback.

 

GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were = told 6man had no issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work = needed to work through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is = rather exhausted at having to repeatedly address the same = miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted members of other lists, and having = our questions ignored. You are essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather = than listening and collaborating. It's clear you are unwilling to work = collaboratively within the group. We've = tried.

 

Perhaps = the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? =

 

GS - I trust you understand how the standards process = works. Good luck.

 

Greg

 

mike

>
> For the detailed technical = points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they have been checked carefully = in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and have been proven by = implementation and test.
> Also there are solid requirements from = industry to have well-adapted BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 = network.
>
> We seek for your guidance to move our work = forward in IETF. We would like to propose two options about what should = be done in the next step:
> 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER = WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER architecture.
> 2) Move BIERv6 = work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does not comply with = BIER architecture.
>
> Thank you very much for your = help.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original = Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin =
> Vigoureux
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> = To: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: [Bier] In reply to = the formal complaints
>
> WG
>
> First, I'd = like to apologize for the time this has taken.
>
> I have = reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, and I = have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier = mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and = IPv6.
>
> I will not individually discuss the various = points raised, rather I will make a general statement.
>
> = It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in = the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen = sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that = some points are more problematic than others.
> Further, it is my = opinion that the points listed may arise from a variety of intentions = and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a particular = one.
> It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns = is, in itself, a concern.
> I have talked with the chairs. They do = recognize that, at some occasions, their communication was not the most = effective one, and I trust they will pay attention to that in the = future.
>
> About the adoption poll on = draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way this was handled raised some = concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoption poll is not formally part = of our processes, even if it is common practice, and in fact it only = marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have little arguments = to go back on this.
>
> The last part is about the progress = of a so-called BIER v6 solution.
> Here, I have asked the chairs = to establish a summary of the discussions regarding that type of = solution in general and regarding the specific document which proposes a = solution. They should publish it some time after this e-mail.
> =
> Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and = open discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then = concludes on the way forward.
>
>
> Martin
> =
> _______________________________________________
> BIER = mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dh= ttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;data=3D= 04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut
> urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fe= e8ff2a3b240189c753a
> = 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj> = oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&a= m
> = p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&amp;rese= rve
> d=3D0
> =

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing = list
BIER@ietf.org
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dh= ttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;data=3D04%7= C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8= ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFp= bGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3= D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DdcV1PufJOI0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D= &amp;reserved=3D0

________________________________________= _______
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

------=_NextPart_000_05AE_01D763B8.768D8F40-- From nobody Thu Jun 17 19:03:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E088C3A3719 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uKc1sw-Pl6Gt for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E5B13A3718 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id o88-20020a17090a0a61b029016eeb2adf66so6995337pjo.4 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:03:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TFA5pNTyagF6HlN9mWmalAJAlkvkH9SU4kaJhoBUgdY=; b=H8F0RwIR+k9LURMRHsVqhgCnWcqQ1ZzXaYzu68XiFqJsUGz5S/oOJ1uSnNdapRI1M0 i5fAvJ76IbeKdlKLoZrZstnFLS5PwUjuUdpc0jzqG6Xd9eGn6RWTFsLq1oHs1gSkypN1 4sIILTkbvpsCP7s5pGhend1gW8MdU6Zv4IP+/xFLOW0aj/yQd98IOe1C/hBkyF/RvTEe 3gCvz4yEa/6TLeRsOv7BlEp3DF+HAfulR9ffBskEztQsE7MV0VSEl5oHg6gp1httnPmx jBgv0BiwH+yohDZ9p2GEUhm22oM7JBlP+areEfihNhP3HmLQi6BidiE0xH3fjX7AiJin w9Hg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TFA5pNTyagF6HlN9mWmalAJAlkvkH9SU4kaJhoBUgdY=; b=X5fNWSASGRq6ik5ZPb0NDGBQE124QbkRPI2NSZk88dadIi8fIPwAR2Omv2vFWTfdDP tawQfm7pZG8sEGpBRsAgGSR/HF5SszlJFluWqJ47zt6CHjl9zuuw/McBLYR4WaTiGEsP tfWxMt7PGdKAzoa57f+ltECj1m3kCEOGLHZ0ivSdXufp/js+VkD53oIUhKNaWwylXK5E Aw80++YHmwygbuVVxfUuI0KlPx5+BE1+ZnJlifnRZma65b2YpYtG6HK5njiNpajZTbzG QZ5I/wkolQ/rsMGl5CUaB4LzNb1AoP9ziQGQHn1uFjz486o1TA2mGPYqQ/2ZUQ6LnDC/ GDvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532hnZAd+eG/6K/nOj0E4U6d+r33khiK4C4BElbzPKzXl0tjlt4Z wtqgJc+MDf+QpHNMlL47GhAWBtXn/srQNLisXJo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzyYeRYvuUkyfCKNJT2reC1jN8LpQ8SZ5s8yco7MuejoglSaryjDpLZj2cFFKpI6hsPckw/s1MAmfqFRTOIBaw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4592:: with SMTP id v18mr8406496pjg.132.1623981803203; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:03:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> <5eedd48e04ec461289339777760669f2@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5eedd48e04ec461289339777760669f2@huawei.com> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 22:03:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lizhenbin Cc: Martin Vigoureux , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier@ietf.org" , "gjshep@gmail.com" , m00759202 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000806f1405c500baaa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 02:03:30 -0000 --000000000000806f1405c500baaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear WG As co-author of both drafts, Robin makes very good points in the comparison and contrast of BIERIn6 and BIERv6 to Segment Routing SR-MPLS layering reusing of the MPLS data plane comparison to BIERIn6 and SRv6 using the native IPv6 data plane comparison to BIERv6. Kind Regards Gyan On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 12:51 PM Lizhenbin wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Through the discussion, we can learn more about the conflict of the desig= n > consideration between BIERin6 and BIERv6. In my opinion, it is not > appropriate to consider BIERv6 and BIERin6 as the competitive solutions > thought there is some overlap. The relationship between BIERv6 and BIERin= 6 > is similar as that between SR-MPLS over IP and SRv6 which can be co-exist > for the different scenarios. > > - For BIERin6, it tries to keep the BIER as an independent layer and take= s > the IPv6 as the transport tunnel. (In SR-MPLS over IP, the MPLS is the > independent layer from the IP) > > - For BIERv6, it takes the native IPv6 design like SRv6. > > > > According to the design, there can be different applications scenarios: > > 1. For MVPN, with BIERin6, the MPLS label can be allocation for the MVPN > instance and can be carried in the BIER layer. BIERv6 will not support th= e > usecase. As the native IPv6 design, it will always use the IPv6 segment t= o > indicate the MVPN instance. > > 2. With BIERv6, it is easy to support the advanced features such as the > fragment and IPSEC functionalities combining with the existing IPv6 > extension headers. On the contrary, in order to support these features in > the BIERin6 solutions which take the BIER as an independent layer, Jeffer= y > proposed the draft to define the general transport header for the BIER > layer to support the fragment and IPSec features. But I do not think it i= s > enough. Now the new functionalities such as network slicing, IOAM and oth= er > new functionalities have been proposed. According to the solutions of > BIERin6, it is necessary to go on define the extension headers in the BIE= R > layer. If so, for the BIERin6, the fragment/IPSec/network slicing/IOAM > headers/options can exist in both the IPv6 extension headers and the BIER > layer. We also need the specification to define how to process the > co-existence of the same functionalities in IPv6 layer and BIER layer. In > my opinion, this is not reasonable and necessary. > > I am not sure how ambitious the BIER WG to keep the BIER as the > independent layer. If it is ambitious enough, there can be the > functionalities including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc= . > to be developed in the BIER layer. At the same time, the similar > functionalities are being developed in the MPLS data plane and the IPv6 > data plane. So we will encounter the following challenges: > > 1) With BIERin6, it will be the following options: > > Option 1: IPv6 basic header + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM > network slicing, APN, etc.) > > Option 2: IPv6 header (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, > APN, etc. ) + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing= , > APN, etc.) > > No matter whatever options, the doubt will be arised why duplicate > functionalites are developed in both the IPv6 layer and the BIER layer. > > 2) For BIER in MPLS, it seems the BIER header is only encapsulated in the > MPLS encapsulation as other functionalities instead of maintaining an > independent layer. I am not sure about the conclustion. If it is yes, it > seems conflicted with the design concept claimed by BIERin6 to keep BIER = as > the independent layer. If it is not, BIER will be kept as the independent > layer and there will be the following case: > > MPLS layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) + > BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) > > The doubt will be arised again why duplicate functionalites are developed > in both the MPLS layer and the BIER layer. > > When the BIER WG was setup, it cannot be expected later there would be > many new funcationalities to be developed. I do not think it is appropria= te > to be strict with the layered architecture of BIER. And the scope of the > BIERin6 solution should also be controlled. Though it seems possible to > support the above new functionalities with the layered architecture > insisted by the BIERin6, it may cause a mess of the architecture design. > But with BIERv6, the advanced functionalities can be supported easily. > > This is similar as the relation between SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6. SR-MPL= S > over IP is claimed as =E2=80=9Ca poor man solution=E2=80=9D and the scope= is maily confine > to traverse the IP domain. On the contrary, in the solution of SRv6, the > advanced features are supported in the IPv6 layer. > > 3. Moreover, since the BIERv6 takes the native IPv6 design, there is the > possibility that the multicast funcation can be directly initiated in the > host side, That is, the BIERv6 can be deployed host-to-host traversing th= e > network domain. This is like the SRv6 to introduce some extention of sock= et > which has been implemented in the Linux. For BIERin6, I do not think ther= e > is the possibility. > > > > The above analysis can be summarized as follows: > > 1. BIERin6 can also support MPLS-based MVPN while BIERv6 will not support > the functionality. > > 2. For the series of functionalities such as the fragment, IPSec, network > slicing, IOAM, APN, etc. which is being developed in the MPLS layer and > IPv6 layer, even if there is the possibility to support these > functionalities in the BIER layer which is insisted by the BIERin6, it ma= y > caust the mess in the architecute design involving the MPLS/IPv6/BIER > layer. I suggest the advanced functionalities should be implemented > directly in the IPv6 layer like BIERv6 or the MPLS layer. > > 3. For the future possible host-to-host deployment, BIERv6 should take it > rather than BIERin6. > > > > Like the co-existence of SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6, there should be the > co-eixstence BIERin6 and BIERv6 for the different scenarios even if there > is the overlap. And there should not be the mess in the BIER WG. If it is > insisted that the layered architecture and the encoding of the BIER heade= r > should not be changed (for BIERv6, some fields of the BIER header are tru= ly > unnecessary) in the BIER WG, since the BIERv6 adopts the same design > concept as the SRv6, the work can be done in the SPRING WG (in fact the > END.BIER can also be seen as a new flavor of the END in SRv6). Or like th= e > TREE SID, the work can be done in the PIM WG where the multicast source > routing can be explored together. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Robin > > > > > > > > > > *From:* BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd > *Sent:* Thursday, June 17, 2021 1:08 PM > *To:* m00759202 > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; bier@ietf.org; > Martin Vigoureux > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > Inline: > > > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride > wrote: > > Howdy, > > Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit : > > Dear Martin, > > > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it > reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. > >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is > L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. > >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, whic= h > should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal > interpretation. > > >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and > reach consensus on. > > My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply > unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. > > > > GS - Correct > > > > There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great us= e > of IPv6 with bier. > > > > GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the > authors for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating > layer dependencies and we are still waiting. > > > > This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. > > > > GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no > issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work > through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted a= t > having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quote= d > members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are > essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaboratin= g. > It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. > We've tried. > > > > Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? > > > > GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck. > > > > Greg > > > > mike > > > > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they > have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and > have been proven by implementation and test. > > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted > BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would > like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER > architecture. > > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does no= t > comply with BIER architecture. > > > > Thank you very much for your help. > > > > Jingrong > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin > > Vigoureux > > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > > To: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > WG > > > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, > and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier > mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wil= l > make a general statement. > > > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in > the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen > sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some > points are more problematic than others. > > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a > variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with = a > particular one. > > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in > itself, a concern. > > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some > occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trus= t > they will pay attention to that in the future. > > > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way > this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoptio= n > poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice= , > and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have > little arguments to go back on this. > > > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions > regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific > document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time afte= r > this e-mail. > > > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open > discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes = on > the way forward. > > > > > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= . > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fu= t > > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > > p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserv= e > > d=3D0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurew= ei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi= LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJO= I0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com * *M 301 502-1347* --000000000000806f1405c500baaa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear WG

As co-author of both drafts, Robin makes very good points in the comparis= on and contrast of BIERIn6 and BIERv6 to Segment Routing SR-MPLS layering r= eusing of the MPLS data plane comparison to BIERIn6 and SRv6 using the nati= ve IPv6 data plane comparison to BIERv6.

<= div dir=3D"auto">Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 12:51 PM Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Folks,

Through the discussion= , we can learn more about the conflict of the design consideration between = BIERin6 and BIERv6. In my opinion, it is not appropriate to consider BIERv6 and BIERin6 as the competitive solutions thought there = is some overlap. The relationship between BIERv6 and BIERin6 is similar as = that between SR-MPLS over IP and SRv6 which can be co-exist for the differe= nt scenarios.

- For BIERin6, it trie= s to keep the BIER as an independent layer and takes the IPv6 as the transp= ort tunnel. (In SR-MPLS over IP, the MPLS is the independent layer from the IP)

- For BIERv6, it takes= the native IPv6 design like SRv6.

=C2=A0

According to the desig= n, there can be different applications scenarios:

1. For MVPN, with BIER= in6, the MPLS label can be allocation for the MVPN instance and can be carr= ied in the BIER layer. BIERv6 will not support the usecase. As the native IPv6 design, it will always use the IPv6 segment to= indicate the MVPN instance.

2. With BIERv6, it is = easy to support the advanced features such as the fragment and IPSEC functi= onalities combining with the existing IPv6 extension headers. On the contrary, in order to support these features in the BIERin= 6 solutions which take the BIER as an independent layer, Jeffery proposed t= he draft to define the general transport header for the BIER layer to suppo= rt the fragment and IPSec features. But I do not think it is enough. Now the new functionalities such as netwo= rk slicing, IOAM and other new functionalities have been proposed. Accordin= g to the solutions of BIERin6, it is necessary to go on define the extensio= n headers in the BIER layer. If so, for the BIERin6, the fragment/IPSec/network slicing/IOAM headers/optio= ns can exist in both the IPv6 extension headers and the BIER layer. We also= need the specification to define how to process the co-existence of the sa= me functionalities in IPv6 layer and BIER layer. In my opinion, this is not reasonable and necessary.

I am not sure how ambi= tious the BIER WG to keep the BIER as the independent layer. If it is ambit= ious enough, there can be the functionalities including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc. to be developed in the BI= ER layer. At the same time, the similar functionalities are being developed= in the MPLS data plane and the IPv6 data plane. So we will encounter the f= ollowing challenges:

1) With BIERin6, it wi= ll be the following options:

Option 1: IPv6 basic h= eader + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, e= tc.)

Option 2: IPv6 header = (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc. ) + BIER layer = (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.)

No matter whatever opt= ions, the doubt will be arised why duplicate functionalites are developed i= n both the IPv6 layer and the BIER layer.

2) For BIER in MPLS, i= t seems the BIER header is only encapsulated in the MPLS encapsulation as o= ther functionalities instead of maintaining an independent layer. I am not sure about the conclustion. If it is yes, it seems conflic= ted with the design concept claimed by BIERin6 to keep BIER as the independ= ent layer. If it is not, BIER will be kept as the independent layer and the= re will be the following case:

MPLS layer (including = fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) + BIER layer (including f= ragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.)

The doubt will be aris= ed again why duplicate functionalites are developed in both the MPLS layer = and the BIER layer.

When the BIER WG was s= etup, it cannot be expected later there would be many new funcationalities = to be developed. I do not think it is appropriate to be strict with the layered architecture of BIER. And the scope of the B= IERin6 solution should also be controlled. Though it seems possible to supp= ort the above new functionalities with the layered architecture insisted by= the BIERin6, it may cause a mess of the architecture design. But with BIERv6, the advanced functionalities = can be supported easily.

This is similar as the= relation between SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6. SR-MPLS over IP is claimed as = =E2=80=9Ca poor man solution=E2=80=9D and the scope is maily confine to traverse the IP domain. On the contrary, in the solution of SRv6, the a= dvanced features are supported in the IPv6 layer.

3. Moreover, since the= BIERv6 takes the native IPv6 design, there is the possibility that the mul= ticast funcation can be directly initiated in the host side, That is, the BIERv6 can be deployed host-to-host traversing the= network domain. This is like the SRv6 to introduce some extention of socke= t which has been implemented in the Linux. For BIERin6, I do not think ther= e is the possibility.

=C2=A0

The above analysis can= be summarized as follows:

1. BIERin6 can also su= pport MPLS-based MVPN while BIERv6 will not support the functionality.

2. For the series of f= unctionalities such as the fragment, IPSec, network slicing, IOAM, APN, etc= . which is being developed in the MPLS layer and IPv6 layer, even if there is the possibility to support these functionalit= ies in the BIER layer which is insisted by the BIERin6, it may caust the me= ss in the architecute design involving the MPLS/IPv6/BIER layer. I suggest = the advanced functionalities should be implemented directly in the IPv6 layer like BIERv6 or the MPLS layer.

3. For the future poss= ible host-to-host deployment, BIERv6 should take it rather than BIERin6.=

=C2=A0

Like the co-existence = of SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6, there should be the co-eixstence BIERin6 and = BIERv6 for the different scenarios even if there is the overlap. And there should not be the mess in the BIER WG. If it is = insisted that the layered architecture and the encoding of the BIER header = should not be changed (for BIERv6, some fields of the BIER header are truly= unnecessary) in the BIER WG, since the BIERv6 adopts the same design concept as the SRv6, the work can be don= e in the SPRING WG (in fact the END.BIER can also be seen as a new flavor o= f the END in SRv6). Or like the TREE SID, the work can be done in the PIM W= G where the multicast source routing can be explored together.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Robin

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: = BIER [mailto:bie= r-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 1:08 PM
To: m00759202 <mmcbride@futurewei.com>
Cc: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureu= x@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints<= /span>

=C2=A0

Inline:

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM= Michael McBride <mmcbride@futurewei.com> wrote:

Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Dear Martin,
>
> We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think= it reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
>>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, = which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
>>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, = which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal inter= pretation.

>it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and r= each consensus on.

My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture.

=C2=A0

GS - Correct

=C2=A0

There are many of us who believ= e using EH for the bitstring is a great use of IPv6 with bier.

=C2=A0

GS - "Great use" is n= ot a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the authors for years what the = compelling use case is to motivate creating layer dependencies and we are s= till waiting.

=C2=A0

This was presented in 6man with= positive feedback.

=C2=A0

GS - No, it was presented in 6m= an and the authors were told 6man had no issues with it from a v6 perspecti= ve but that the work needed to work through the BIER WG for all BIER issues= . And the WG is rather exhausted at having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted= members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are essentia= lly DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaborating. It'= s clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. We've tried.

=C2=A0

Perhaps the time has come to pr= opose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG?

=C2=A0

GS - I trust you understand how= the standards process works. Good luck.

=C2=A0

Greg

=C2=A0

mike

>
> For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think the= y have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and h= ave been proven by implementation and test.
> Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted B= IER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network.
>
> We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would l= ike to propose two options about what should be done in the next step:
> 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER a= rchitecture.
> 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does n= ot comply with BIER architecture.
>
> Thank you very much for your help.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Vigoureux
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints
>
> WG
>
> First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.
>
> I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, = and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mai= ling list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.
>
> I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wi= ll make a general statement.
>
> It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in = the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen someti= mes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points = are more problematic than others.
> Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a vari= ety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a part= icular one.
> It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itse= lf, a concern.
> I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasio= ns, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they wi= ll pay attention to that in the future.
>
> About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way = this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adopt= ion poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practi= ce, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this.=
>
> The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussion= s regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific doc= ument which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after thi= s e-mail.
>
> Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open d= iscussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on = the way forward.
>
>
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= .
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2= Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut
> urewei.com%7C251aa= 4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a
> 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj=
> oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am= p;am
> p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&amp;r= eserve
> d=3D0
>

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--
--000000000000806f1405c500baaa-- From nobody Thu Jun 17 23:45:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9593A3F40 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 23:45:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I6EuYebqAMyN for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 23:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA2D73A3F3F for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 23:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxct.zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.164.217]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 76AD6AF315544605D210; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 14:45:00 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 79A36B411FD0E9E1C2D6; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:10:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp04.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.203]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 15I3ASov019160; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:10:28 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp03[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid203; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:10:27 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:10:27 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afb60cc0ea3235b88df X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202106181110279241465@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <5eedd48e04ec461289339777760669f2@huawei.com> References: a2a82830-faf2-0992-c4bf-b02cdb8e6e4c@nokia.com, 6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com, 913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com, BYAPR13MB2582B3EBCD5FB7F1C635A72FD00E9@BYAPR13MB2582.namprd13.prod.outlook.com, CABFReBoW7YRPdDVeUWAva8atz4UtfhJoBPnW4orUJ9U41XFFCw@mail.gmail.com, 5eedd48e04ec461289339777760669f2@huawei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , , , , , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 15I3ASov019160 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?In_reply_to_the_formal_complaints?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 06:45:20 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Robin, The viewpoints you raised here have been discussed round and round. If you have difficulty to find the discussion in the mailing list before, please see this summary for BIERin6 from Jeffrey in the adoption discussion round (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/0h09rZ8sgBlrzx9awtZc44y4XHg/): 1. BIERin6 is to apply the existing generic solution to IPv6 networks, with a clean layered architecture. All that is needed are code points for outer header to indicate the payload is BIER. In case of IPv6 tunneling (single hop or multi-hop), that's a code point for IP "next header". 2. It does satisfy all requirements listed in the requirements draft, including supporting SRv6 based services. 3. With the above considerations, it is ready for WG adoption on standards track, and should not be tied with other solutions (which may progress on their own paces). Thanks, Sandy ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：Lizhenbin 收件人：gjshep@gmail.com;m00759202; 抄送人：Xiejingrong (Jingrong);bier@ietf.org;Martin Vigoureux; 日 期 ：2021年06月18日 00:51 主 题 ：Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier Hi Folks, Through the discussion, we can learn more about the conflict of the design consideration between BIERin6 and BIERv6. In my opinion, it is not appropriate to consider BIERv6 and BIERin6 as the competitive solutions thought there is some overlap. The relationship between BIERv6 and BIERin6 is similar as that between SR-MPLS over IP and SRv6 which can be co-exist for the different scenarios. - For BIERin6, it tries to keep the BIER as an independent layer and takes the IPv6 as the transport tunnel. (In SR-MPLS over IP, the MPLS is the independent layer from the IP) - For BIERv6, it takes the native IPv6 design like SRv6. According to the design, there can be different applications scenarios: 1. For MVPN, with BIERin6, the MPLS label can be allocation for the MVPN instance and can be carried in the BIER layer. BIERv6 will not support the usecase. As the native IPv6 design, it will always use the IPv6 segment to indicate the MVPN instance. 2. With BIERv6, it is easy to support the advanced features such as the fragment and IPSEC functionalities combining with the existing IPv6 extension headers. On the contrary, in order to support these features in the BIERin6 solutions which take the BIER as an independent layer, Jeffery proposed the draft to define the general transport header for the BIER layer to support the fragment and IPSec features. But I do not think it is enough. Now the new functionalities such as network slicing, IOAM and other new functionalities have been proposed. According to the solutions of BIERin6, it is necessary to go on define the extension headers in the BIER layer. If so, for the BIERin6, the fragment/IPSec/network slicing/IOAM headers/options can exist in both the IPv6 extension headers and the BIER layer. We also need the specification to define how to process the co-existence of the same functionalities in IPv6 layer and BIER layer. In my opinion, this is not reasonable and neces sary. I am not sure how ambitious the BIER WG to keep the BIER as the independent layer. If it is ambitious enough, there can be the functionalities including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc. to be developed in the BIER layer. At the same time, the similar functionalities are being developed in the MPLS data plane and the IPv6 data plane. So we will encounter the following challenges: 1) With BIERin6, it will be the following options: Option 1: IPv6 basic header + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) Option 2: IPv6 header (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc. ) + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) No matter whatever options, the doubt will be arised why duplicate functionalites are developed in both the IPv6 layer and the BIER layer. 2) For BIER in MPLS, it seems the BIER header is only encapsulated in the MPLS encapsulation as other functionalities instead of maintaining an independent layer. I am not sure about the conclustion. If it is yes, it seems conflicted with the design concept claimed by BIERin6 to keep BIER as the independent layer. If it is not, BIER will be kept as the independent layer and there will be the following case: MPLS layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) The doubt will be arised again why duplicate functionalites are developed in both the MPLS layer and the BIER layer. When the BIER WG was setup, it cannot be expected later there would be many new funcationalities to be developed. I do not think it is appropriate to be strict with the layered architecture of BIER. And the scope of the BIERin6 solution should also be controlled. Though it seems possible to support the above new functionalities with the layered architecture insisted by the BIERin6, it may cause a mess of the architecture design. But with BIERv6, the advanced functionalities can be supported easily. This is similar as the relation between SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6. SR-MPLS over IP is claimed as “a poor man solution” and the scope is maily confine to traverse the IP domain. On the contrary, in the solution of SRv6, the advanced features are supported in the IPv6 layer. 3. Moreover, since the BIERv6 takes the native IPv6 design, there is the possibility that the multicast funcation can be directly initiated in the host side, That is, the BIERv6 can be deployed host-to-host traversing the network domain. This is like the SRv6 to introduce some extention of socket which has been implemented in the Linux. For BIERin6, I do not think there is the possibility. The above analysis can be summarized as follows: 1. BIERin6 can also support MPLS-based MVPN while BIERv6 will not support the functionality. 2. For the series of functionalities such as the fragment, IPSec, network slicing, IOAM, APN, etc. which is being developed in the MPLS layer and IPv6 layer, even if there is the possibility to support these functionalities in the BIER layer which is insisted by the BIERin6, it may caust the mess in the architecute design involving the MPLS/IPv6/BIER layer. I suggest the advanced functionalities should be implemented directly in the IPv6 layer like BIERv6 or the MPLS layer. 3. For the future possible host-to-host deployment, BIERv6 should take it rather than BIERin6. Like the co-existence of SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6, there should be the co-eixstence BIERin6 and BIERv6 for the different scenarios even if there is the overlap. And there should not be the mess in the BIER WG. If it is insisted that the layered architecture and the encoding of the BIER header should not be changed (for BIERv6, some fields of the BIER header are truly unnecessary) in the BIER WG, since the BIERv6 adopts the same design concept as the SRv6, the work can be done in the SPRING WG (in fact the END.BIER can also be seen as a new flavor of the END in SRv6). Or like the TREE SID, the work can be done in the PIM WG where the multicast source routing can be explored together. Best Regards, Robin From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 1:08 PM To: m00759202 Cc: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; bier@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints Inline: On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride wrote: Howdy, Le 2021-06-11 à 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a écrit : > Dear Martin, > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal interpretation. >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and reach consensus on. My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. GS - Correct There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use of IPv6 with bier. GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the authors for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating layer dependencies and we are still waiting. This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted at having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaborating. It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. We've tried. Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck. Greg mike > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and have been proven by implementation and test. > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER architecture. > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does not comply with BIER architecture. > > Thank you very much for your help. > > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin > Vigoureux > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > To: bier@ietf.org > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > WG > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will make a general statement. > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points are more problematic than others. > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a particular one. > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itself, a concern. > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they will pay attention to that in the future. > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoption poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this. > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after this e-mail. > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on the way forward. > > > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > p;sdata=ng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserve > d=0 > _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=dcV1PufJOI0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Fri Jun 18 00:57:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B2F3A413C for ; 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Fri, 18 Jun 2021 00:57:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> <5eedd48e04ec461289339777760669f2@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5eedd48e04ec461289339777760669f2@huawei.com> From: Tony Przygienda Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 09:56:53 +0200 Message-ID: To: Lizhenbin Cc: "gjshep@gmail.com" , m00759202 , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier@ietf.org" , Martin Vigoureux Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee477b05c505ac15" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:57:53 -0000 --000000000000ee477b05c505ac15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keeping it terse to not make it another 100 mails rehash of endless threads along the same lines we had over last 1.5 years or so. \ First, I advise the usual suspects here to not start to steer the thread (which should concern itself with any relevant technical angle & input if there is some to be had) again towards their technical content free personal beliefs, opinions, preferences, feelings and borderline personal attacks and gripes about the process and WG. Enough of that has been had on lists and WG chats to the point of extending formal complaints already ... Second, given Robin is a newcomer to discussion here I extend very terse answer since the arguments can be found in archives and according complaint communications. So I only answer some summary points As first observation, I think it is time to point out to the authors & your company proponents of BIERv6 that there is NO BIERv6. BIER does have a version field under governance of an IETF registry and what you talking about in your email is clearly "BIER encoded in SRv6" so we would appreciate enormously if you'll call this work from now on something along the lines of "SRv6 BIER encoding" and hence we will avoid confusion by folks trying to understand the technical content of this work and think it's some kind of new BIER version or BIER tunneling. Point 2: it seems that your feeling goes towards "layering is bad, flat is good, IPv6 L3 encoding can replace everything with enough option hacks and redefining addresses to mean other things". This is purely a preference whereas the world's internet has been built on a layered, distributed networking stack providing an address and layer based security architecture without controllers. Moreover, attempts to build L3 multicast replication/tunneling/signalling in one blob were tried and if they would have been successful BIER WG would not be even chartered. Further I observe that lots of things you assume as chartered/given/solved are quite ambitious such as _multicast_ OAM in SRv6 and multicast fragmentation while ignoring things like RFC8085 (or maybe assumption is that SRv6 will add multicast MTU discovery as well) and liberally adding things you like to RFC8279. Following this philosophy, ethernet OAM is probably on its way to be replaced as well ;-) Point 3: AFAIS to implement BIERin6 on linux it seems all is needed is a raw v6 socket with next protocol BIER without any kernel modules or extensions so I read your assertion that SRv6 encoded BIER is somehow superior on host purely as personal belief. Ultimately, I don't seem to see any technical issues summarized during the format complaint addressed in detail in your email. As example, I still don't see any use case "SRv6 encapsed BIER" solves that BIERin6 doesn't simply solve which is one of the key consideration while I read a lot of assumptions and preferences about what BIER should be in eyes of SRv6 which, while acknowledged, do not seem to contribute anything substantially new to the long drawn out discussion or the technical arguments extended while we closed the process of considering the draft's merits to fit into WG as work item thanks --- tony On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 6:51 PM Lizhenbin wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Through the discussion, we can learn more about the conflict of the desig= n > consideration between BIERin6 and BIERv6. In my opinion, it is not > appropriate to consider BIERv6 and BIERin6 as the competitive solutions > thought there is some overlap. The relationship between BIERv6 and BIERin= 6 > is similar as that between SR-MPLS over IP and SRv6 which can be co-exist > for the different scenarios. > > - For BIERin6, it tries to keep the BIER as an independent layer and take= s > the IPv6 as the transport tunnel. (In SR-MPLS over IP, the MPLS is the > independent layer from the IP) > > - For BIERv6, it takes the native IPv6 design like SRv6. > > > > According to the design, there can be different applications scenarios: > > 1. For MVPN, with BIERin6, the MPLS label can be allocation for the MVPN > instance and can be carried in the BIER layer. BIERv6 will not support th= e > usecase. As the native IPv6 design, it will always use the IPv6 segment t= o > indicate the MVPN instance. > > 2. With BIERv6, it is easy to support the advanced features such as the > fragment and IPSEC functionalities combining with the existing IPv6 > extension headers. On the contrary, in order to support these features in > the BIERin6 solutions which take the BIER as an independent layer, Jeffer= y > proposed the draft to define the general transport header for the BIER > layer to support the fragment and IPSec features. But I do not think it i= s > enough. Now the new functionalities such as network slicing, IOAM and oth= er > new functionalities have been proposed. According to the solutions of > BIERin6, it is necessary to go on define the extension headers in the BIE= R > layer. If so, for the BIERin6, the fragment/IPSec/network slicing/IOAM > headers/options can exist in both the IPv6 extension headers and the BIER > layer. We also need the specification to define how to process the > co-existence of the same functionalities in IPv6 layer and BIER layer. In > my opinion, this is not reasonable and necessary. > > I am not sure how ambitious the BIER WG to keep the BIER as the > independent layer. If it is ambitious enough, there can be the > functionalities including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc= . > to be developed in the BIER layer. At the same time, the similar > functionalities are being developed in the MPLS data plane and the IPv6 > data plane. So we will encounter the following challenges: > > 1) With BIERin6, it will be the following options: > > Option 1: IPv6 basic header + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM > network slicing, APN, etc.) > > Option 2: IPv6 header (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, > APN, etc. ) + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing= , > APN, etc.) > > No matter whatever options, the doubt will be arised why duplicate > functionalites are developed in both the IPv6 layer and the BIER layer. > > 2) For BIER in MPLS, it seems the BIER header is only encapsulated in the > MPLS encapsulation as other functionalities instead of maintaining an > independent layer. I am not sure about the conclustion. If it is yes, it > seems conflicted with the design concept claimed by BIERin6 to keep BIER = as > the independent layer. If it is not, BIER will be kept as the independent > layer and there will be the following case: > > MPLS layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) + > BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) > > The doubt will be arised again why duplicate functionalites are developed > in both the MPLS layer and the BIER layer. > > When the BIER WG was setup, it cannot be expected later there would be > many new funcationalities to be developed. I do not think it is appropria= te > to be strict with the layered architecture of BIER. And the scope of the > BIERin6 solution should also be controlled. Though it seems possible to > support the above new functionalities with the layered architecture > insisted by the BIERin6, it may cause a mess of the architecture design. > But with BIERv6, the advanced functionalities can be supported easily. > > This is similar as the relation between SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6. SR-MPL= S > over IP is claimed as =E2=80=9Ca poor man solution=E2=80=9D and the scope= is maily confine > to traverse the IP domain. On the contrary, in the solution of SRv6, the > advanced features are supported in the IPv6 layer. > > 3. Moreover, since the BIERv6 takes the native IPv6 design, there is the > possibility that the multicast funcation can be directly initiated in the > host side, That is, the BIERv6 can be deployed host-to-host traversing th= e > network domain. This is like the SRv6 to introduce some extention of sock= et > which has been implemented in the Linux. For BIERin6, I do not think ther= e > is the possibility. > > > > The above analysis can be summarized as follows: > > 1. BIERin6 can also support MPLS-based MVPN while BIERv6 will not support > the functionality. > > 2. For the series of functionalities such as the fragment, IPSec, network > slicing, IOAM, APN, etc. which is being developed in the MPLS layer and > IPv6 layer, even if there is the possibility to support these > functionalities in the BIER layer which is insisted by the BIERin6, it ma= y > caust the mess in the architecute design involving the MPLS/IPv6/BIER > layer. I suggest the advanced functionalities should be implemented > directly in the IPv6 layer like BIERv6 or the MPLS layer. > > 3. For the future possible host-to-host deployment, BIERv6 should take it > rather than BIERin6. > > > > Like the co-existence of SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6, there should be the > co-eixstence BIERin6 and BIERv6 for the different scenarios even if there > is the overlap. And there should not be the mess in the BIER WG. If it is > insisted that the layered architecture and the encoding of the BIER heade= r > should not be changed (for BIERv6, some fields of the BIER header are tru= ly > unnecessary) in the BIER WG, since the BIERv6 adopts the same design > concept as the SRv6, the work can be done in the SPRING WG (in fact the > END.BIER can also be seen as a new flavor of the END in SRv6). Or like th= e > TREE SID, the work can be done in the PIM WG where the multicast source > routing can be explored together. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Robin > > > > > > > > > > *From:* BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd > *Sent:* Thursday, June 17, 2021 1:08 PM > *To:* m00759202 > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; bier@ietf.org; > Martin Vigoureux > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > Inline: > > > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride > wrote: > > Howdy, > > Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit : > > Dear Martin, > > > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it > reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. > >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is > L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. > >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, whic= h > should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal > interpretation. > > >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and > reach consensus on. > > My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply > unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. > > > > GS - Correct > > > > There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great us= e > of IPv6 with bier. > > > > GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the > authors for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating > layer dependencies and we are still waiting. > > > > This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. > > > > GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no > issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work > through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted a= t > having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quote= d > members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are > essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaboratin= g. > It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. > We've tried. > > > > Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? > > > > GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck. > > > > Greg > > > > mike > > > > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they > have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and > have been proven by implementation and test. > > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted > BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would > like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER > architecture. > > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does no= t > comply with BIER architecture. > > > > Thank you very much for your help. > > > > Jingrong > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin > > Vigoureux > > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > > To: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > WG > > > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, > and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier > mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wil= l > make a general statement. > > > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in > the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen > sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some > points are more problematic than others. > > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a > variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with = a > particular one. > > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in > itself, a concern. > > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some > occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trus= t > they will pay attention to that in the future. > > > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way > this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoptio= n > poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice= , > and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have > little arguments to go back on this. > > > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions > regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific > document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time afte= r > this e-mail. > > > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open > discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes = on > the way forward. > > > > > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= . > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fu= t > > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > > p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserv= e > > d=3D0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurew= ei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi= LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJO= I0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --000000000000ee477b05c505ac15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Keeping it terse to not make it another 100 mails reh= ash of endless threads along the same lines we had over last 1.5 years or s= o. \

First, I advise the usual suspects here to no= t start to steer the thread (which should concern itself with any relevant = technical angle & input if there is some to be had) again towards their= technical content free personal beliefs, opinions, preferences, feelings a= nd borderline personal attacks and gripes about the process and WG. Enough = of that has been had on lists and WG chats to the point of extending formal= complaints already ...

Second, given Robin i= s a newcomer to discussion here I extend very terse answer since the argume= nts can be found in archives and according complaint communications. So I o= nly answer some summary points

As first obser= vation, I think it is time to point out to the authors & your company proponents of BIERv6 that there is NO BIERv6. BIER does have a=20 version field under governance of an IETF registry and what you talking=20 about in your email is clearly "BIER encoded in SRv6" so we would= appreciate=20 enormously if you'll call this work from now on something along the=20 lines of "SRv6 BIER encoding" and hence we will avoid confusion b= y folks trying to understand the technical content of this work and think it's some k= ind of new BIER version or BIER tunneling.

Point 2= : it seems that your feeling goes towards "layering is bad, flat is go= od, IPv6 L3 encoding can replace everything with enough option hacks and re= defining addresses to mean other things". This is purely a preference = whereas the world's internet has been built on a layered, distributed n= etworking stack providing an address and layer based security architecture = without controllers. Moreover, attempts to build L3 multicast replication/t= unneling/signalling in one blob were tried and if they would have been succ= essful BIER WG would not be even chartered. Further I observe that lots of = things you assume as chartered/given/solved are quite ambitious such as _mu= lticast_ OAM in SRv6 and multicast fragmentation while ignoring things like= RFC8085 (or maybe assumption is that SRv6 will add multicast MTU discovery= as well) and liberally adding things you like to RFC8279. Following this p= hilosophy, ethernet OAM is probably on its way to be replaced as well ;-) <= br>

Point 3: AFAIS to implement BIERin6 on linux i= t seems all is needed is a raw v6 socket with next protocol BIER without an= y kernel modules or extensions so I read your assertion that SRv6 encoded B= IER is somehow superior on host purely as personal belief.
<= br>Ultimately, I don't seem to see any technical issues summarized duri= ng the format complaint=C2=A0 addressed in detail in your email. As example= , I still don't see any use case "SRv6 encapsed BIER" solves that BIERin6 doesn't simply= solve=20 which is one of the key consideration while I read a lot of assumptions and= preferences about what=20 BIER should be in eyes of SRv6 which, while acknowledged, do not seem to contribute anything substantially new to the long drawn out discussion or = the technical arguments extended while we closed=20 the process of considering the draft's merits to fit into WG as work it= em

thanks

--- t= ony




=
On Thu, Ju= n 17, 2021 at 6:51 PM Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Folks,

Through the dis= cussion, we can learn more about the conflict of the design consideration b= etween BIERin6 and BIERv6. In my opinion, it is not appropriate to consider BIERv6 and BIERin6 as the competitive solutions thought there = is some overlap. The relationship between BIERv6 and BIERin6 is similar as = that between SR-MPLS over IP and SRv6 which can be co-exist for the differe= nt scenarios.

- For BIERin6, = it tries to keep the BIER as an independent layer and takes the IPv6 as the= transport tunnel. (In SR-MPLS over IP, the MPLS is the independent layer from the IP)

- For BIERv6, i= t takes the native IPv6 design like SRv6.

=C2=A0

According to th= e design, there can be different applications scenarios:

1. For MVPN, wi= th BIERin6, the MPLS label can be allocation for the MVPN instance and can = be carried in the BIER layer. BIERv6 will not support the usecase. As the native IPv6 design, it will always use the IPv6 segment to= indicate the MVPN instance.

2. With BIERv6,= it is easy to support the advanced features such as the fragment and IPSEC= functionalities combining with the existing IPv6 extension headers. On the contrary, in order to support these features in the BIERin= 6 solutions which take the BIER as an independent layer, Jeffery proposed t= he draft to define the general transport header for the BIER layer to suppo= rt the fragment and IPSec features. But I do not think it is enough. Now the new functionalities such as netwo= rk slicing, IOAM and other new functionalities have been proposed. Accordin= g to the solutions of BIERin6, it is necessary to go on define the extensio= n headers in the BIER layer. If so, for the BIERin6, the fragment/IPSec/network slicing/IOAM headers/optio= ns can exist in both the IPv6 extension headers and the BIER layer. We also= need the specification to define how to process the co-existence of the sa= me functionalities in IPv6 layer and BIER layer. In my opinion, this is not reasonable and necessary.

I am not sure h= ow ambitious the BIER WG to keep the BIER as the independent layer. If it i= s ambitious enough, there can be the functionalities including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc. to be developed in the BI= ER layer. At the same time, the similar functionalities are being developed= in the MPLS data plane and the IPv6 data plane. So we will encounter the f= ollowing challenges:

1) With BIERin6= , it will be the following options:

Option 1: IPv6 = basic header + BIER layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing,= APN, etc.)

Option 2: IPv6 = header (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc. ) + BIER= layer (including fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.)

No matter whate= ver options, the doubt will be arised why duplicate functionalites are deve= loped in both the IPv6 layer and the BIER layer.

2) For BIER in = MPLS, it seems the BIER header is only encapsulated in the MPLS encapsulati= on as other functionalities instead of maintaining an independent layer. I am not sure about the conclustion. If it is yes, it seems conflic= ted with the design concept claimed by BIERin6 to keep BIER as the independ= ent layer. If it is not, BIER will be kept as the independent layer and the= re will be the following case:

MPLS layer (inc= luding fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.) + BIER layer (incl= uding fragment, IPSec, IOAM network slicing, APN, etc.)

The doubt will = be arised again why duplicate functionalites are developed in both the MPLS= layer and the BIER layer.

When the BIER W= G was setup, it cannot be expected later there would be many new funcationa= lities to be developed. I do not think it is appropriate to be strict with the layered architecture of BIER. And the scope of the B= IERin6 solution should also be controlled. Though it seems possible to supp= ort the above new functionalities with the layered architecture insisted by= the BIERin6, it may cause a mess of the architecture design. But with BIERv6, the advanced functionalities = can be supported easily.

This is similar= as the relation between SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6. SR-MPLS over IP is clai= med as =E2=80=9Ca poor man solution=E2=80=9D and the scope is maily confine to traverse the IP domain. On the contrary, in the solution of SRv6, the a= dvanced features are supported in the IPv6 layer.

3. Moreover, si= nce the BIERv6 takes the native IPv6 design, there is the possibility that = the multicast funcation can be directly initiated in the host side, That is, the BIERv6 can be deployed host-to-host traversing the= network domain. This is like the SRv6 to introduce some extention of socke= t which has been implemented in the Linux. For BIERin6, I do not think ther= e is the possibility.

=C2=A0

The above analy= sis can be summarized as follows:

1. BIERin6 can = also support MPLS-based MVPN while BIERv6 will not support the functionalit= y.

2. For the seri= es of functionalities such as the fragment, IPSec, network slicing, IOAM, A= PN, etc. which is being developed in the MPLS layer and IPv6 layer, even if there is the possibility to support these functionalit= ies in the BIER layer which is insisted by the BIERin6, it may caust the me= ss in the architecute design involving the MPLS/IPv6/BIER layer. I suggest = the advanced functionalities should be implemented directly in the IPv6 layer like BIERv6 or the MPLS layer.

3. For the futu= re possible host-to-host deployment, BIERv6 should take it rather than BIER= in6.

=C2=A0

Like the co-exi= stence of SR-MPLS over UDP and SRv6, there should be the co-eixstence BIERi= n6 and BIERv6 for the different scenarios even if there is the overlap. And there should not be the mess in the BIER WG. If it is = insisted that the layered architecture and the encoding of the BIER header = should not be changed (for BIERv6, some fields of the BIER header are truly= unnecessary) in the BIER WG, since the BIERv6 adopts the same design concept as the SRv6, the work can be don= e in the SPRING WG (in fact the END.BIER can also be seen as a new flavor o= f the END in SRv6). Or like the TREE SID, the work can be done in the PIM W= G where the multicast source routing can be explored together.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Robin=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: BIER= [mailto:bier-bo= unces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 1:08 PM
To: m00759202 <mmcbride@futurewei.com>
Cc: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureu= x@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints<= /span>

=C2=A0

Inline:

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM= Michael McBride <mmcbride@futurewei.com> wrote:

Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Dear Martin,
>
> We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think= it reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
>>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, = which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
>>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, = which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal inter= pretation.

>it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and r= each consensus on.

My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture.

=C2=A0

GS - Correct

=C2=A0

There are many of us who believ= e using EH for the bitstring is a great use of IPv6 with bier.

=C2=A0

GS - "Great use" is n= ot a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the authors for years what the = compelling use case is to motivate creating layer dependencies and we are s= till waiting.

=C2=A0

This was presented in 6man with= positive feedback.

=C2=A0

GS - No, it was presented in 6m= an and the authors were told 6man had no issues with it from a v6 perspecti= ve but that the work needed to work through the BIER WG for all BIER issues= . And the WG is rather exhausted at having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted= members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are essentia= lly DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaborating. It'= s clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. We've tried.

=C2=A0

Perhaps the time has come to pr= opose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG?

=C2=A0

GS - I trust you understand how= the standards process works. Good luck.

=C2=A0

Greg

=C2=A0

mike

>
> For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think the= y have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and h= ave been proven by implementation and test.
> Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted B= IER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network.
>
> We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would l= ike to propose two options about what should be done in the next step:
> 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER a= rchitecture.
> 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does n= ot comply with BIER architecture.
>
> Thank you very much for your help.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Vigoureux
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints
>
> WG
>
> First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.
>
> I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, = and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mai= ling list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.
>
> I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wi= ll make a general statement.
>
> It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in = the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen someti= mes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points = are more problematic than others.
> Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a vari= ety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a part= icular one.
> It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itse= lf, a concern.
> I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasio= ns, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they wi= ll pay attention to that in the future.
>
> About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way = this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adopt= ion poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practi= ce, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have little arguments to go back on this.=
>
> The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussion= s regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific doc= ument which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after thi= s e-mail.
>
> Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open d= iscussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on = the way forward.
>
>
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
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--000000000000ee477b05c505ac15-- From nobody Fri Jun 18 07:24:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E75E3A44DF for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:24:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-ugKIVglvA0 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8B563A44E2 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id df12so6419081edb.2 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:24:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=3xaiY7a10P1PY9rk/YVNnD8bRNNLACTLB2+m1IQ/LFA=; b=B8nvUbT2lV+D/ltalyblQWBItuOtf9GW0QY27KVW07XArlsezdcFWzrhTUV/mAJvax iF+7dQM4UEONMBnMc6wOMmdF8jaYzMCsb6AeAUlPa7e/IwamK9ABrckNYywZ1isoUxmy rk0sLs78bfnup9kStR/dKL2OK9R7mJzcxPyCZOq9pAxo/tGNK82YBAgASmlqWrE6ARG/ NydMI0pzu95mgnFJVOCxuavXjRgwhUxwiLlGpYycVtYKzd8ypmtAo3zgOMrroRTJiuAx mfOIYbNgA5s4MQ+86l6sWLSYWE3KhXKY0QRGkSoPrLEY0mH/ey6D2GrsdfGOJ3oS1++Y z/pw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3xaiY7a10P1PY9rk/YVNnD8bRNNLACTLB2+m1IQ/LFA=; b=hoQfZQJN3gh7fdmfguT/zx0PemCeeLL8KbfKU4+COc19+1N7CB/RlxRkBCAUwg1N4e pxy1D1CidOexkg6kajYWcAsMQMkmPa+81SsLVVAgTkSoyw3gJJexogDmSVcoic2uCqlG 0XgLV/NuBUKKyekb6dFlg9Dr9ABghei0G6eGd9S699d8eeICK6FQjXNUk5SPH9omcnlf yPeOl38faIAuYeX18YDbk5m6c8wijjccgcLEHedwCDYU1WQpClQBvMKOQdNTcUKZT044 w3afuobVPZTB5lYswSinE8vExE/eBcSE35Y2ZZsUDbq4KXhDXsg5IP7TerF8v8ONTVwg mEUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532XqsBkldrmbMsOd3O8FMjj+sJ5164ZAYFJZlSUL/CH7QE+vAR6 QRJPjXJAUBHIcNqYbr1IVLqgLgaMgx0xBu5NXdxweSpgPJndZQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyDHv7mxMgDc08hRVN78nlFfxljouswj6uIs65Mu3lVaZ50lbz5M9p9pi7Bu9aw9hfv3lWYbzjk0twUcfEKR6k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:2710:: with SMTP id y16mr5333102edd.101.1624026271683; Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> <05ad01d763b0$14c83ce0$3e58b6a0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <05ad01d763b0$14c83ce0$3e58b6a0$@olddog.co.uk> Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:24:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Cc: Michael McBride , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , BIER WG , Martin Vigoureux Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000797e905c50b15a8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 14:24:41 -0000 --0000000000000797e905c50b15a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adrian, It is the conclusion of the WG that creating a layer dependency - fusion/melding of overlay forwarding layer, BIER forwarding layer, and lower transport layer - would take the standard in the wrong direction. Replication has been bound to unicast forwarding planes for more than 30 years. BIER has finally brought a dedicated, independent replicating forwarding plane to the Internet Architecture. It would be irresponsible to ignore the original concerns that started BIER on the Experimental Track now that it has just started to develop on the Standards Track. The BIER WG will be updating RFC 8279 and has already a list of volunteers for the task, but you are welcome to join. This work should be published shortly and I encourage you to contribute your scrutiny to that draft when available. Thanks for your help, Greg On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 12:36 PM Adrian Farrel wrote: > Greg, > > > > Is it necessary to take a hostile and aggressive approach to these > discussions? I am sure you are frustrated and want to move forward, but i= t > feels like you are shutting down discussions rather than trying to resolv= e > them. > > > > Telling someone that they are =E2=80=9Cunwilling to work collaboratively = within > the group=E2=80=9D is probably not conducive to encouraging them to work > collaboratively. > > > > My understanding was that the AD has engaged with you to work on the > clarity of your communication, and your email is certainly very clear. Bu= t > I don=E2=80=99t think it is very nice. We look to those in leadership pos= itions to > set the tone for the work in the IETF, and you need to do better. > > > > Thanks, > > Adrian > > > > > > *From:* BIER *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd > *Sent:* 17 June 2021 06:08 > *To:* Michael McBride > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; bier@ietf.org; > Martin Vigoureux > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > Inline: > > > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride > wrote: > > Howdy, > > Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit : > > Dear Martin, > > > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it > reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. > >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is > L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. > >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, whic= h > should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal > interpretation. > > >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and > reach consensus on. > > My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply > unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. > > > > GS - Correct > > > > There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great us= e > of IPv6 with bier. > > > > GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the > authors for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating > layer dependencies and we are still waiting. > > > > This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. > > > > GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no > issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work > through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted a= t > having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quote= d > members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are > essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaboratin= g. > It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group. > We've tried. > > > > Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? > > > > GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck. > > > > Greg > > > > mike > > > > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they > have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and > have been proven by implementation and test. > > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted > BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would > like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER > architecture. > > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does no= t > comply with BIER architecture. > > > > Thank you very much for your help. > > > > Jingrong > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin > > Vigoureux > > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > > To: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > WG > > > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, > and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier > mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wil= l > make a general statement. > > > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in > the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen > sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some > points are more problematic than others. > > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a > variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with = a > particular one. > > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in > itself, a concern. > > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some > occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trus= t > they will pay attention to that in the future. > > > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way > this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoptio= n > poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice= , > and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have > little arguments to go back on this. > > > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions > regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific > document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time afte= r > this e-mail. > > > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open > discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes = on > the way forward. > > > > > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= . > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fu= t > > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > > p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserv= e > > d=3D0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurew= ei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi= LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJO= I0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > --0000000000000797e905c50b15a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Adrian,

It is the conclusion of the WG that creating a layer dependency - fusion/= melding of overlay forwarding layer, BIER forwarding layer, and lower trans= port layer - would take the standard in the wrong direction. Replication ha= s been bound to unicast forwarding planes for more than 30 years. BIER has = finally brought a dedicated, independent replicating forwarding plane to th= e Internet Architecture. It would be irresponsible to ignore the original c= oncerns that started BIER on the Experimental Track now that it has just st= arted to develop on the Standards Track.=C2=A0

The= BIER WG will be updating RFC 8279 and has already a list of volunteers for= the task, but you are welcome to join. This work should be published short= ly and I encourage you to contribute your scrutiny to that draft when avail= able.

Thanks for your help,
Greg
On= Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 12:36 PM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
=

Greg,=

=C2=A0

=

Is it necessary to take a hostile and aggressi= ve approach to these discussions? I am sure you are frustrated and want to = move forward, but it feels like you are shutting down discussions rather th= an trying to resolve them.

<= span>=C2=A0

Telling so= meone that they are =E2=80=9Cunwilling to work collaboratively withi= n the group=E2=80=9D is probably not conducive to encouraging them to work = collaboratively.

=C2=A0

My understanding was that the AD has engaged w= ith you to work on the clarity of your communication, and your email is cer= tainly very clear. But I don=E2=80=99t think it is very nice. We look to th= ose in leadership positions to set the tone for the work in the IETF, and y= ou need to do better.

= =C2=A0

Thanks,

Adrian

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:<= /span> BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Greg Shepherd
Sent: 17 June 2021 06:08
To: Michael McBr= ide <mmcbrid= e@futurewei.com>
Cc: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; bier@ietf.org= ; Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [Bier= ] In reply to the formal complaints

=C2=A0

Inl= ine:

=C2=A0

=

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael Mc= Bride <mmcbr= ide@futurewei.com> wrote:

Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xieji= ngrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Dear Martin,
>
>= We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it = reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
>&g= t;From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which = is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
>>From our = point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, which should be i= nterpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal interpretation.
>it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and = reach consensus on.

My take from the chairs summary is that they bel= ieve BIERv6 is simply unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architectu= re.

=C2= =A0

GS - Correct<= /p>

=C2=A0

There are many of us who believe using= EH for the bitstring is a great use of IPv6 with bier.

<= /blockquote>

=C2=A0

=

GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. = The WG has been asking the authors for years what the compelling use case i= s to motivate creating layer dependencies and we are still waiting.<= u>

=C2=A0

<= blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt= ;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8= pt;margin-right:0cm">

This was presented in 6man with= positive feedback.

=C2=A0

GS - No, it wa= s presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no issues with it fr= om a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work through the BIER WG fo= r all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted at having to repeatedly a= ddress the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted members of other lists= , and having our questions ignored. You are essentially DOS-ing the WG proc= ess rather than listening and collaborating. It's clear you are unwilli= ng to work collaboratively within the group. We've tried.=

=C2=A0

Perhaps the time has come to propose = this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG?

=C2=A0

GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck.=

=C2=A0

Greg

=C2=A0

mike

>
> For the detailed technical points= in the BIERv6 solution, we think they have been checked carefully in BIER = WG and other WGs for long time, and have been proven by implementation and = test.
> Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-= adapted BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network.
>
> We seek for yo= ur guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would like to propose two = options about what should be done in the next step:
> 1) Consider to = adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER architecture.
>= 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does not c= omply with BIER architecture.
>
> Thank you very much for your= help.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message----= -
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Vigour= eux
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: [Bier= ] In reply to the formal complaints
>
> WG
>
> Fi= rst, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.
>
>= ; I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, and= I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mailin= g list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.
> > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I w= ill make a general statement.
>
> It is my opinion that a cert= ain number of points are not critical (in the sense of not needing an AD to= step-in) and some typically happen sometimes as part of the life cycle of = WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points are more problematic than others.=
> Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a = variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a = particular one.
> It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of c= oncerns is, in itself, a concern.
> I have talked with the chairs. Th= ey do recognize that, at some occasions, their communication was not the mo= st effective one, and I trust they will pay attention to that in the future= .
>
> About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Alt= hough the way this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind= that an adoption poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is= common practice, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion.= As such, I have little arguments to go back on this.
>
> The = last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution.
> He= re, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions regar= ding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific document w= hich proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after this e-mai= l.
>
> Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a = fair and open discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and the= n concludes on the way forward.
>
>
> Martin
> > _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing= list
> BIER@ietf.= org
> https://nam11.safelinks.protecti= on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;da= ta=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut
> urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b= 240189c753a
> 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWF= pbGZsb3d8eyJWIj
> oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXV= CI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am
> p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkf= Y66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&amp;reserve
> d=3D0
>

___________= ____________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww= w.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40= futurewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d= 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wL= jAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata= =3DdcV1PufJOI0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing li= st
BIER@ietf.org<= br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

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I just finished reading this document -- it still needs work! =C2=A0 In general, tightening up the specification is needed -- this is a Standards Track document! =C2=A0 Also, as written, this document is not compliant with rfc7761 -- I included most of my concerns about this point in =C2=A73.1.3.1 (search for line 338). There are some process issues (listed in increasing severity) that I need the Chairs'/Shepherd's input on: (1) 6 authors are listed in the front page, but rfc7322 recommends a limit = of =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5. =C2=A0Chairs: Can you please provide justification for goi= ng over the =C2=A0 =C2=A0 limit? =C2=A0[In general, I think that 6 is an ok number -- w= e just need to cross the T's...] (2) I didn't see a specific request from the Chairs asking the pim WG to =C2=A0 =C2=A0 review, or them being cc'd in any of the WGLCs. =C2=A0Did I m= iss it? =C2=A0Given =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the amount of PIM content in this document, that interaction = should have =C2=A0 =C2=A0 already happened. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I realize that there's a significant overlap in participation= between the =C2=A0 =C2=A0 two WGs, so I'm cc'ing pim on this message and will forward t= he IETF LC =C2=A0 =C2=A0 when we get to that stage. (3) This document replaces draft-hfa-bier-pim-signaling, but that linkage h= ad =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not been indicated in the datatracker when Publication was re= quested. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The main issue with this oversight is that draft-hfa-bier-pim= -signaling =C2=A0 =C2=A0 has two IPR declarations [1]. =C2=A0The Shepherd's writeup sa= ys that no IPR had =C2=A0 =C2=A0 been filed against this document. =C2=A0Also, I didn't find a= n IPR poll in the =C2=A0 =C2=A0 archives. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have added the link between this document and =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-hfa-bier-pim-signaling. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 To address this issue, I need the Chairs to please poll the a= uthors about =C2=A0 =C2=A0 any non-declared IPR. =C2=A0Please cc the WG (in case anyone = else needs to =C2=A0 =C2=A0 declare something) and include a link to the existing disclos= ures. =C2=A0Once =C2=A0 =C2=A0 each author has individually replied, I need the Shepherd to = update the =C2=A0 =C2=A0 writeup. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [1] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3D= draft-ietf-bier-pim-signaling Finally, I have a general question about the need/applicability for this work. =C2=A0This is just for my own education: What is the advantage/difference between using the specification in this document and unicast-tunneling the PIM messages to the corresponding node (EBBR)? =C2=A0I see the discovery of the EBBR as one of the differences, but that discovery is outside the scope of this document -- IOW, the same procedures could be used to discover the target node without the additional BIER machinery. Again, I'm just curious. =C2=A0I suspect other reviewers may have similar q= uestions. Thanks! Alvaro. [Line numbers from idnits.] ... 18 Abstract [nit] The First two paragraphs could be merged to provide continuity. 20 =C2=A0 Consider large networks deploying traditional PIM multicast serv= ice. 21 =C2=A0 Typically, each portion of these large networks have their own 22 =C2=A0 mandates and requirements. 24 =C2=A0 It might be desirable to deploy BIER technology in some part of = these 25 =C2=A0 networks to replace traditional PIM services. =C2=A0In such case= s 26 =C2=A0 downstream PIM states need to be signaled over BIER Domain towar= d the 27 =C2=A0 source. [nit] s/over BIER Domain/over the BIER Domain 29 =C2=A0 This draft explains the procedure to signal PIM joins and prunes 30 =C2=A0 through a BIER Domain, as such enable provisioning of traditiona= l PIM 31 =C2=A0 services through a BIER Domain. [minor] s/explains/specifies [minor] s/ joins and prunes / Join/Prune messages /g Please make sure, throughout the document, that the rfc7761 terminology is followed. [nit] s/as such enable/enabling the ... 98 1. =C2=A0Introduction 100 =C2=A0 Consider large networks deploying traditional PIM multicast ser= vice. 101 =C2=A0 Typically, each portion of these large networks have their own 102 =C2=A0 mandates and requirements. [minor] The Introduction is an exact copy of the Abstract. =C2=A0That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. =C2=A0However, you might want to take the time here to maybe explain about what the different "mandates and requirements" are that would result in needing to signal PIM through the BIER domain. =C2=A0[This is related to my question at the top about the need/applicability.] ... 113 2. =C2=A0Conventions used in this document 115 =C2=A0 The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL N= OT", 116 =C2=A0 "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in= this 117 =C2=A0 document are to be interpreted as describe in [RFC2119]. [major] Please use the template from rfc8174. 119 2.1. =C2=A0Definitions 121 =C2=A0 Some of the terminology specified in [RFC8279] is replicated he= re and 122 =C2=A0 extended by necessary definitions: [major] Please don't replicate the terminology -- this way we can avoid the terms falling out of sync or being defined/understood differently. =C2=A0Instead, make it clear what the expectations are: Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0An understanding of the BIER architecture [RFC8279] and the re= lated =C2=A0 =C2=A0terminology is expected. New terms are ok in this section. =C2=A0Extensions not so much because they may change the definition of a term in rfc8279, but a clarification is ok. ... 153 =C2=A0 BBR: 155 =C2=A0 BIER Boundary router. =C2=A0A router between the PIM domain and= BIER 156 =C2=A0 domain. =C2=A0Maintains PIM adjacency for all routers attached = to it on 157 =C2=A0 the PIM domain and terminates the PIM adjacency toward the BIER 158 =C2=A0 domain. 160 =C2=A0 IBBR: 162 =C2=A0 Ingress BIER Boundary Router. =C2=A0An ingress router from sign= aling point 163 =C2=A0 of view. =C2=A0It maintains PIM adjacency toward the PIM domain= and 164 =C2=A0 determines if PIM joins and prunes arriving from PIM domain nee= d to 165 =C2=A0 be signaled across the BIER domain. =C2=A0If so it terminates t= he PIM 166 =C2=A0 adjacency toward the BIER domain and signals the PIM joins/prun= es 167 =C2=A0 through the BIER core. 169 =C2=A0 EBBR: 171 =C2=A0 Egress BIER Boundary Router. =C2=A0An egress router in BIER dom= ain from 172 =C2=A0 signaling point of view. =C2=A0It terminates the BIER packet an= d forwards 173 =C2=A0 the signaled joins and prunes into PIM Domain. [major] I would have expected for the IBBR/EBBR to be defined as specific types of a BBR, but the definition doesn't do so. =C2=A0For example, the BBR "Maintains PIM adjacency for all routers", as does the IBBR, but the EBBR doesn't. =C2=A0IOW, it looks like the EBBR is not a BBR. =C2=A0 Please review and update the definitions. ... 193 3. =C2=A0PIM Signaling Through BIER domain ... 208 =C2=A0 As per figure 1, the procedures of PIM signaling is done at the= BIER 209 =C2=A0 boundary router. =C2=A0The BIER boundary routers (BBR) are conn= ected to 210 =C2=A0 PIM capable routers toward the PIM domain and BIER routers towa= rd the 211 =C2=A0 BIER domain. =C2=A0PIM routers in PIM domain continue to send P= IM state 212 =C2=A0 messages to the BBR. =C2=A0The BBR will create PIM adjacency be= tween all 213 =C2=A0 the PIM routers attached to it on the PIM domain. =C2=A0That sa= id the BBR 214 =C2=A0 does not propagate all PIM packets natively into the BIER domai= n. 215 =C2=A0 Instead when it determines that the PIM join or prune messages = needs 216 =C2=A0 to be signaled through the BIER domain it will tunnel the PIM p= acket 217 =C2=A0 through the BIER network. =C2=A0This tunneling is only done for= signaling 218 =C2=A0 purposes and not for creating a PIM adjacency between the two 219 =C2=A0 disjoint PIM domains through the BIER domain. [] Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 1 illustrates the operation of the BIER Boundary router= (BBR). =C2=A0 =C2=A0BBRs are connected to PIM routers in the PIM domain and BIER r= outers in =C2=A0 =C2=A0the BIER domain. =C2=A0Each BBR determines if a PIM Join or Pr= une message =C2=A0 =C2=A0needs to be signaled through the BIER domain and tunnels it th= rough the =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER network if so. =C2=A0This tunneling is only done for sign= aling purposes =C2=A0 =C2=A0and not for creating a PIM adjacency between the two disjoint = PIM domains =C2=A0 =C2=A0through the BIER domain. 221 =C2=A0 The terminology ingress BBR (IBBR) and egress BBR (EBBR) are re= lative 222 =C2=A0 from signaling point of view. [minor] s/are relative from signaling/is relative only from a signaling 224 =C2=A0 The ingress BBR will determine if an arriving PIM join or prune= needs 225 =C2=A0 to be signaled across the BIER domain. =C2=A0While the egress B= BR will 226 =C2=A0 determine if the arriving BIER packet is a signaling packet and= if so 227 =C2=A0 it will generate a PIM join/prune packet toward its attached PI= M 228 =C2=A0 domain. [minor] The first sentence is redundant with the text above. 230 =C2=A0 The BFER and BFIR are BBR from datapath point of view. =C2=A0It= should be 231 =C2=A0 noted the new procedures in this draft are only applicable to 232 =C2=A0 signaling and there are no changes from datapath point of view. [minor] I think that mixing the term BBR (defined in this document for signaling purposes) with BFIR/BFER (at this point) may cause unnecessary confusion. Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The new procedures in this document are only applicable to PIM= signaling. =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are no changes to the datapath. 234 3.1. =C2=A0Ingress BBR procedure 236 =C2=A0 IBBR will create PIM adjacency to all PIM routers attached to i= t 237 =C2=A0 toward the PIM domain. [] Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IBBR maintains a PIM adjacency [RFC7761] with any PIM rout= er attached =C2=A0 =C2=A0to it on the PIM domain. 239 =C2=A0 When a PIM join or prune for certain (S,G) arrives, the IBBR fi= rst 240 =C2=A0 determines whether the join or prune is meant for a source that= is 241 =C2=A0 reachable through the BIER domain. =C2=A0As an example, this so= urce is 242 =C2=A0 located in a disjoint PIM domain that is reachable through the = BIER 243 =C2=A0 domain. =C2=A0If so the IBBR will try to resolve the source via= an EBBR 244 =C2=A0 closest to the source. 246 =C2=A0 The procedure to find the EBBR (BFIR from datapath point of vie= w) can 247 =C2=A0 be via many mechanisms explained in more detail in upcoming sec= tion. [major] "certain (S,G)" =C2=A0It is not until =C2=A75 that you mention the = use of the mechanisms with ASM. =C2=A0The text throughout the document feels as if the operation applies *only* to SSM becasue of the specific used of "source". =C2=A0Please mention the applicability earlier so the reader doesn't have to make assumptions. =C2=A0Including something in the Introduction would be ideal -- maybe move a part of =C2=A75 there. Also, some of the text will have to be updated to reflect the use of the source or RP. [major] Related. =C2=A0The mechanisms in this document work to join/leave the RPT, but not for a source to send Register messages to an RP across the BIER domain. =C2=A0 Given that the Register messages are unicast, they should make it to the RP without additional changes, right? =C2=A0It would be good if this was explained somewhere. [major] "mechanisms explained in more detail in upcoming section" There are examples later on, but not a more detailed explanation. =C2=A0In fact, =C2=A73.1.1/Appendix A/=C2=A73.1.2 declare the EBBR discovery to be o= ut of scope. =C2=A0I think that declaring this part of the specification out of scope is ok, mostly because finding the path towards the source/RP is a well-known process in PIM. =C2=A0The difference is that the RPF neighbor (EBBR in this case) will usually not be directly connected. I wonder if the process can be described using "RPF", with the caveats that the RPF neighbor is the EBBR and RPF interface is the BIER tunnel towards it. [] Suggestion -- to replace the last two paragraphs (and eliminate =C2=A73.1.1/3,1,2)> =C2=A0 =C2=A0When a PIM Join or Prune message is received, the IBBR determi= nes whether =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Source or RP is reachable through the BIER domain. =C2=A0T= he EBBR is the =C2=A0 =C2=A0BFR through which the Source or RP is reachable. =C2=A0In PIM = terms [rfc7761], =C2=A0 =C2=A0the EBBR is the RPF Neighbor, and the RPF Interface is the BIE= R "tunnel" =C2=A0 =C2=A0used to reach it. =C2=A0The mechanisms used to find the EBBR a= re outside the =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope of this document -- some examples are provided in Append= ix A. =C2=A0 =C2=A0If the lookup results in multiple EBBRs, then the EBBR closest= to the =C2=A0 =C2=A0source should be preferred. =C2=A0The selection algorithm shou= ld ensure that =C2=A0 =C2=A0all signaling for a particular (S,G) or RP is forwarded to a s= ingle EBBR. =C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, the selection can be round robin or use the lowes= t EBBR IP =C2=A0 =C2=A0address. 249 =C2=A0 After discovering the EBBR and its BFR-ID, the IBBR will includ= e a 250 =C2=A0 new PIM Join Attribute in the join/prune message as per [RFC538= 4]. 251 =C2=A0 Two new "BIER IBBR" attributes are defined and explained in upc= oming 252 =C2=A0 section. =C2=A0The PIM Join Attribute is used on EBBR to obtain= necessary 253 =C2=A0 BIER information to build its multicast states. =C2=A0In additi= on the IBBR 254 =C2=A0 will change the PIM signaling packet source IP address to its B= IER 255 =C2=A0 prefix address (standard PIM procedure). =C2=A0It will also kee= p the 256 =C2=A0 destination address as the well known multicast IP address. =C2= =A0It then 257 =C2=A0 will construct the BIER header. =C2=A0The signaling packet, in = this case 258 =C2=A0 the PIM join/prune packet, is encapsulated in the BIER header a= nd 259 =C2=A0 transported through BIER domain to EBBR. [] It took me a while to correlate the "a new PIM Join Attribute in the join/prune message as per [RFC5384]" with the fact that the attribute is defined in this document (not rfc5384). Also, I am not able to find the "two new "BIER IBBR" attributes...in upcoming section". =C2=A0I see that the Join Attribute can be either IPv4 or IPv6 -- is that what you meant by 2 attributes? Suggestion (to replace the first 3 sentences)> =C2=A0 =C2=A0After discovering the EBBR and its BFR-id, the IBBR MUST use t= he BIER =C2=A0 =C2=A0Info Vector (Section 3.1.3) PIM Join Attribute [rfc5384]. =C2= =A0The EBBR uses =C2=A0 =C2=A0this attribute to obtain the necessary BIER information to bui= ld its =C2=A0 =C2=A0multicast state. =C2=A0 =C2=A0The signaling packet, in this case a PIM Join/Prune message, i= s =C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulated in the BIER Header and forwarded through the BIER= domain =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the EBBR. =C2=A0The source address of the PIM packets MUST = be set to =C2=A0 =C2=A0belong to the local BFR-prefix. =C2=A0The destination address = MUST be set to =C2=A0 =C2=A0ALL-PIM-ROUTERS [rfc7761]. There was an interesting suggestion on the list [1] -- I didn't see a reply= . [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/58OIQ_9JbIiUWPrR_Yo7J47GMc8 261 =C2=A0 The IBBR will track all the PIM interfaces on the attached PIM = domain 262 =C2=A0 which are interested in a certain (S,G). =C2=A0It creates multi= cast states 263 =C2=A0 for arriving (S,G)s from PIM domain, with incoming interface as= BIER 264 =C2=A0 "tunnel" interface and outgoing interface as the PIM domain 265 =C2=A0 interface(s) on which PIM Join(s) were received on. [minor] "arriving (S,G)s" =C2=A0I guess you mean "arriving Join messages"..= . ... 288 3.1.3. =C2=A0PIM Signaling packet construction at IBBR [nit] s/at IBBR/at the IBBR [] Let's separate the definition of the new attribute from its use. IOW. in =C2=A73.1.3 specify the attribute (in general -- independent of the application), and use =C2=A73.1.3.1 to indicate the use and packet construction. The title in =C2=A73.1.3 should then be: The BIER Info Vector PIM Join Attr= ibute 290 =C2=A0 To ensure all necessary BIER information needed by EBBR is pres= ent in 291 =C2=A0 the BIER signaling message, a new PIM Join Attribute [RFC5384] = is 292 =C2=A0 used. =C2=A0EBBR can use this attribute to build its multicast = states, as 293 =C2=A0 described in EBBR procedure section. =C2=A0This new PIM join At= tribute is 294 =C2=A0 added to PIM signaling message on the IBBR. =C2=A0Its format is= as follow: [minor] Note that the name of this attribute is not mentioned until =C2=A77. :-( =C2=A0 BTW, do you want to keep the name as "BIER Info Vector"= or expand it to "BIER Information Vector"? Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The BIER Info Vector PIM Join Attribute [rfc5384] is defined a= s follows: 296 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 2 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 297 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 = 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 298 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+ 299 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |F|E| =C2=A0 =C2=A0Type=3Dtbd | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Length =C2= =A0| =C2=A0Addr Family =C2=A0 =C2=A0| BIER info 300 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-... [major] s/Type=3Dtbd/Attr_Type That is the name in rfc5384. 302 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Figure 2: PIM Join Attribute 304 =C2=A0 F bit: The Transitive bit. =C2=A0Specifies whether this attribu= te is 305 =C2=A0 transitive or non-transitive. =C2=A0MUST be set to zero. =C2=A0= This attribute 306 =C2=A0 is ALWAYS non-transitive. [] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0F-bit: Transitive Attribute, as specified in [rfc5384]. =C2=A0= MUST be set to =C2=A0 =C2=A0zero as this attribute is always non-transitive. [major] What should the receiver do if the F-bit is set? 308 =C2=A0 E bit: End-of-Attributes bit. =C2=A0Specifies whether this attr= ibute is 309 =C2=A0 the last. =C2=A0Set to zero if there are more attributes. =C2= =A0Set to 1 if 310 =C2=A0 this is the last attribute. [] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-bit: End of Attributes, as specified in [rfc5384]. 312 =C2=A0 Type: TBD assign by IANA. [] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Attr_Type: TBD 314 =C2=A0 Length: The length in octets of the attribute value. =C2=A0MUST= be set to 315 =C2=A0 the length in octets of the BIER info +1 octet to account for t= he 316 =C2=A0 Address Family field. =C2=A0For IPv4 AF Length =3D 7+1 For IPv6= AF Length =3D 317 =C2=A0 19+1. [] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Length: length of the value field, as specified in [rfc5384]. = =C2=A0MUST be =C2=A0 =C2=A0set to the length of the BIER Info field + 1. =C2=A0For IPv4 t= he length is 8, =C2=A0 =C2=A0and 20 for IPv6. [major] What should a receiver do if the length is not set correctly with respect to the AF? 319 =C2=A0 Addr Family: Signaled PIM Join/Prune address family as defined = in 320 =C2=A0 [RFC7761]. [] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Addr Family: PIM address family, as specified in [rfc7761]. [major] What should a receiver do if the received AF is not IPv4 or IPv6? 322 =C2=A0 BIER Info: IBBR Prefix (IPv4 or IPv6), SD, bfr-id as per below = figure [minor] Move the definition of the fields to be after the figure. NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER Info: =C2=A0This field is described in Figure 3. 324 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 2 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 325 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 = 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 326 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+ 327 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ~ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 IBBR Prefix IPv4 or IPv6 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0~ 328 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+ 329 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | subdomain-id =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BFR-ID= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 330 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 332 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0F= igure 3: PIM Join Attribute detail [major] What is the IBBR prefix? =C2=A0I guess it is the IBBR's BFR-prefix. [major] What should the receiver do if the BFR-prefix is not routable? [major] s/subdomain-id/sub-domain-id Use SD in the figure to make sure it fits. [major] s/BFR-ID/BFR-id/g [major] What should a receiver do if the BFR-id doesn't match the BFIR-id in the BIER Header? [major] What should the receiver do if multiple instances of this attribute are received? [major] Are there any considerations related to the interaction with other PIM Join attributes? =C2=A0For example the Vector attribute. =C2=A0I = am asking both from the point of view of the IBBR receiving other attributes from the PIM domain, *and* the IBBR including/forwarding them through the BIER domain. =C2=A0If any of the received attributes are transitive, should they be forwarded through the BIER domain? 334 3.1.3.1. =C2=A0BIER packet construction at IBBR [nit] s/at IBBR/at the IBBR 336 =C2=A0 The BIER header will be encoded with the BFR-id of the IBBR(wit= h 337 =C2=A0 appropriate bit set in the BitString) and the PIM signaling pac= ket is 338 =C2=A0 then encapsulated in the packet. [minor] I think the whole process can be summarized in a single paragraph -- no need for the figure or the definitions below. Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The BIER Header is used according to the specification in [rfc= 8296] for =C2=A0 =C2=A0a BIER packet to be sent from the IBBR to the EBBR. =C2=A0The = PIM Join/Prune =C2=A0 =C2=A0message is encapsulated in it including the BIER Info Vector P= IM Join =C2=A0 =C2=A0Attribute (Section 3.1.3). [major] Compliance with rfc7761. Even though it is not explicitly mentioned until =C2=A75, I want to talk about not sending Hellos and the overall compliance with rfc7761 here. TL;DR: as written, not sending Hello messages is not compliant with rfc7761= . rfc7761/=C2=A74.3.1 says this: =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note that neighbors will not accept Join/Prune or Assert messa= ges =C2=A0 =C2=A0from a router unless they have first heard a Hello message fro= m that =C2=A0 =C2=A0router. =C2=A0Thus, if a router needs to send a Join/Prune or = Assert =C2=A0 =C2=A0message on an interface on which it has not yet sent a Hello m= essage =C2=A0 =C2=A0with the currently configured IP address, then it MUST immedia= tely =C2=A0 =C2=A0send the relevant Hello message without waiting for the Hello = Timer =C2=A0 =C2=A0to expire, followed by the Join/Prune or Assert message. This text requires (*MUST*) a Hello *before* sending a Join/Prune. Later, in rfc7761/=C2=A74.5 the text is a little more lenient (even contrad= ictory): =C2=A0 =C2=A0In general, a PIM Join/Prune message should only be accepted f= or =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing if it comes from a known PIM neighbor. =C2=A0A PIM = router hears =C2=A0 =C2=A0about PIM neighbors through PIM Hello messages. =C2=A0If a rou= ter receives =C2=A0 =C2=A0a Join/Prune message from a particular IP source address and i= t has =C2=A0 =C2=A0not seen a PIM Hello message from that source address, then th= e =C2=A0 =C2=A0Join/Prune message SHOULD be discarded without further process= ing. This text recommends (*SHOULD*) discarding a Join/Prune if no Hello has been received. =C2=A0This opens a very small door to process the Join/Prune... As we all know, a requirement is stronger than a recommendation. =C2=A0It is very hard for me to consider how this document can work around not sending the required Hello *and* still claim to be compliant with rfc7761. One possible way forward is to also send PIM Hellos through the BIER domain. =C2=A0This would immediately bring this document in compliance with rfc7761 and remove other concerns (below). The other option is to not send PIM Hellos through the BIER domain. There are several points that then have to be addressed: - What about rfc7761? =C2=A0Focus on a strong justification to ignore the recommendation in =C2=A74.5. - What capabilities are expected the BBRs to have? =C2=A0What are the effects of those expectations not being met? - How does the EBBR determine the PIM availability of the IBBR? =C2=A0IOW, not using Hellos means that the EBBR cannot determine whether the IBBR (more explicitly, its PIM functionality) is still available. - There are other potential security issues. =C2=A0For example, any node can send Joins/Prunes with irrelevant information causing traffic to unnecessarily traverse the network. =C2=A0This is not a new threat for PIM (even a known neighbor can do that), but in this case the attack surface is expanded. [major] The issue of the MTU of the BIER tunnel was brought up during WGLC [1], but I didn't see a resolution. =C2=A0FWIW, I agree with Stig's observation that if a significant amount of state is to be carried in the Join/Prune, then it is important to be aware of the effective MTU through the BIER domain. There's some text in =C2=A74.4.1/rfc7761 that could be repurposed here. [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/-YBAPXTXOKXfkOqcD36_54F1_Bo ... 368 3.2. =C2=A0Signaling PIM through the BIER domain procedure [minor] This section seems unnecessary as it states the obvious. =C2=A0It is ok to leave it in for completeness. =C2=A0I do think however that the second paragraph is not needed at all as it just repeats (without using the exact same language) what is already specified in rfc8279. 370 =C2=A0 Throughout the BIER domain the BIER forwarding procedure is on = par 371 =C2=A0 with [RFC8279]. =C2=A0No BIER router will examine the BIER pack= et 372 =C2=A0 encapsulating the PIM signaling packet. =C2=A0As such there is = no 373 =C2=A0 multicast state built in the BIER domain. [minor] s/on par with /according to 375 =C2=A0 The packet will be forwarded through the BIER domain until it r= eaches 376 =C2=A0 the BER with matching BFR-ID as in the BIERHeader.Bitstring. = =C2=A0EBBR 377 =C2=A0 will remove the BIER header and examine the PIM IPv4 or IPv6 378 =C2=A0 signaling packet further as per EBBR Procedure section. 380 3.3. =C2=A0EBBR procedure 382 =C2=A0 EBBR will remove the BIER header and determine this is a signal= ing 383 =C2=A0 packet. =C2=A0The Received PIM join/prune Signaling packet is p= rocessed as 384 =C2=A0 if it were received from neighbors on a virtual interface, (i.e= . as 385 =C2=A0 if the pim adjacency was present, regardless of the fact that t= here 386 =C2=A0 is no adjacency). [nit] s/EBBR will remove/The EBBR removes [minor] s/BIER header/BIER Header/g 388 =C2=A0 The EBBR will build a forwarding table for the arriving (S,G) u= sing 389 =C2=A0 the obtained BFIR-id and the Sub-Domain information from BIER H= eader 390 =C2=A0 and/or the PIM join Attributes added to the PIM Signaling packe= t. =C2=A0In 391 =C2=A0 short it tracks all IBBRs interested in this (S,G). =C2=A0This = is 392 =C2=A0 explained in section 4.1. [nit] s/The EBBR will build/The EBBR builds [major] "forwarding table" =C2=A0rfc7761 refers to the state process using a TIB (indirectly referring to a multicast forwarding table); please use consistent explanations with the existing RFCs. [minor] "arriving (S,G)" =C2=A0Maybe something like "membership information" from the PIM Join/Prune messages. [minor] s/using the obtained BFIR-id and the Sub-Domain information from BIER Header and/or the PIM join Attributes added to the PIM Signaling packet./using the information obtained from the IBBR (in the BIER Header and the PIM Join/Prune message). [minor] "explained in section 4.1" =C2=A0 =C2=A74.1 is just paragraph. =C2= =A0Instead of pointing the user there, please move that text here. =C2=A0However, it seems to me that the next paragraph is redundant with anything that =C2=A74.1 says, so it may not be needed at all. 394 =C2=A0 The multicast state on EBBR will contain PIM domain incoming 395 =C2=A0 interfaces, according to PIM specification and outgoing interfa= ces 396 =C2=A0 based on the above procedure to build the forwarding table. [minor] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The multicast state on the EBBR contains interfaces on the loc= al PIM =C2=A0 =C2=A0domain as incoming interfaces. =C2=A0The outgoing interface is= set to the BIER =C2=A0 =C2=A0"tunnel" used to reach the IBBR. 398 =C2=A0 It should be noted EBBR will maintain PIM adjacency toward the = PIM 399 =C2=A0 domain and all PIM routers which are connected to it. =C2=A0At = this point 400 =C2=A0 the end-to-end multicast traffic flow setup is complete. [] Suggestion> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The EBBR maintains a PIM adjacency [RFC7761] with any PIM rout= er attached =C2=A0 =C2=A0to it on the PIM domain. =C2=A0At this point the end-to-end mu= lticast traffic =C2=A0 =C2=A0flow setup is complete. ... 413 4.2. =C2=A0Datapath traffic flow 415 =C2=A0 When the multicast data traffic arrives on the BFIR (EBBR) the = router 416 =C2=A0 will find all the interested BFERs for that specific (S,G). =C2= =A0The 417 =C2=A0 router then constructs the BIERHeader.BitString with all the BF= ER 418 =C2=A0 interested in the group and will forward the packet to the BIER 419 =C2=A0 domain. =C2=A0The BFER(s) will accept the packets and remove th= e BIER 420 =C2=A0 header and forward the multicast packet as per pre-built multic= ast 421 =C2=A0 state for (S,G) and its outgoing interfaces. [] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0When multicast data traffic arrives on the BFIR (EBBR) it forw= ards, =C2=A0 =C2=A0through the BIER domain, the traffic to all interested IBBRs f= ollowing =C2=A0 =C2=A0the procedures specified in [RFC8279]. =C2=A0 The BFER(s) (IBB= R(s)) also =C2=A0 =C2=A0follow the procedures in [rfc8279] and forward the multicast p= acket =C2=A0 =C2=A0through its outgoing interface(s). 423 5. =C2=A0PIM-SM behavior 425 =C2=A0 The procedures described in this document can work with Any-Sou= rce 426 =C2=A0 Mutlicast (ASM) as long as static Rendevous Point (RP) or embed= ded RP 427 =C2=A0 for IPv6 is used. =C2=A0Future drafts would cover Bootstrap Rou= ter (BSR) 428 =C2=A0 and more complicated SM discovery mechanisms. [minor] s/can work with/can be used with [nit] s/as static/as a static [major] Please add a Normative reference to rfc3956. [minor] The last sentence is not needed, please remove it. 430 =C2=A0 It should be noted that this draft only signals PIM Joins and P= runes 431 =C2=A0 through the BIER domain and not any other PIM message types inc= luding 432 =C2=A0 PIM Hellos or Asserts. =C2=A0As such functionality related to t= hese other 433 =C2=A0 type of massages will not be possible through a BIER domain wit= h this 434 =C2=A0 draft and future drafts might cover these scenarios. =C2=A0As a= n example 435 =C2=A0 DR selection should be done in the PIM domain or if the PIM rou= ters 436 =C2=A0 attached to IBBRs are performing DR selection there needs to be= a 437 =C2=A0 dedicated PIM interface between these routers. [major] As mentioned before, not including Hellos may cause some issues (including not conforming to rfc7761). =C2=A0It is not clear to me that the justification ("such functionality related to these other type of massages will not be possible") applies to Hellos. =C2=A0What about the capabilities, what is expected? =C2=A0How does the IBBR know if the EBBR even supports Join attributes?? [minor] The example doesn't apply to sending messages over the BIER domain. 439 =C2=A0 In case of PIM ASM Static RP or embedded RP for IPv6 the proced= ure 440 =C2=A0 for leaves joining RP is the same as above. =C2=A0It should be = noted that 441 =C2=A0 for ASM, the EBBRs are determined with respect to the RP instea= d of 442 =C2=A0 the source. [major] Instead of including this explanation, update the specification part of this document to take into account the ASM case. 444 6. =C2=A0Applicability to MVPN [] This section starts by saying that "With just minor changes, the above procedures apply to MVPN", but the description goes into more that "minor changes" (including a potential "more complicated label allocation scheme") and points at other details not properly specified. =C2=A0If you want to include the MVPN case, then this section will need more details, references, etc. Personally I would suggest removing it. ... 478 7. =C2=A0IANA Considerations 480 =C2=A0 In the "PIM Join Attribute Types" registry, IANA to assign a ne= w 481 =C2=A0 value [TBD] to the BIER Info Vector. [major] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0IANA is requested to assign a value (TBD) to the BIER Info Vec= tor PIM =C2=A0 =C2=A0Join Attribute from the PIM Join Attribute Types registry. 483 8. =C2=A0Security Considerations 485 =C2=A0 The procedures of this document do not, in themselves, provide 486 =C2=A0 privacy, integrity, or authentication for the control plane or = the 487 =C2=A0 data plane. =C2=A0For a discussion of the security consideratio= ns 488 =C2=A0 regarding the use of BIER, please see [RFC8279] and [RFC8296]. 489 =C2=A0 Security considerations regarding PIM protocol is based on [RFC= 7761]. [nit] s/[last sentence]/The security considerations for PIM [rfc7761] also apply. [major] Some of the risks introduced in this document are not new (forging a Join/Prune, for example), but can now be exploited in a different way (across a BIER domain). =C2=A0The effect may be more significant as it may result in traffic forwarded through the network without need; think congestion, use of resources, etc. =C2=A0The Prune may have the exact opposite effect. Note that you don't need to provide a solution, just mention that as in rfc7761 forging is an issue (but with the BIER domain increased scope). [major] I mentioned receiving a Join/Prune without a neighbor before. Note that rfc7761 recomments this in =C2=A76.2: =C2=A0 =C2=A0A PIM router SHOULD provide an option to limit the set of neig= hbors =C2=A0 =C2=A0from which it will accept Join/Prune, Assert, and Hello messag= es. =C2=A0 =C2=A0Either static configuration of IP addresses or an IPsec securi= ty =C2=A0 =C2=A0association MAY be used. =C2=A0Furthermore, a PIM router SHOUL= D NOT accept =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol messages from a router from which it has not yet rece= ived a =C2=A0 =C2=A0valid Hello message. The recommendation to limit the set of neighbors should be highlighted in this document. =C2=A0In fact, I think it should be required. ... 496 10. =C2=A0References 498 10.1. =C2=A0Normative References 500 =C2=A0 [RFC4607] =C2=A0"H. Holbrook, B. Cain, "Source-Specific multica= st for 501 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP"", October 2016. [major] Unused reference. ... 507 10.2. =C2=A0Informative References ... 513 =C2=A0 [RFC2119] =C2=A0"S. Brandner, "Key words for use in RFCs to Ind= icate 514 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Requirement Levels"", = March 1997. [major] This reference should be Normative. 516 =C2=A0 [RFC5384] =C2=A0"A. Boers, I. Wijnands, E. Rosen, "PIM Join Att= ribute 517 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Format"", November 200= 8. [major] This reference should be Normative. ... 526 =C2=A0 [RFC7761] =C2=A0"B.Fenner, M.Handley, H. Holbrook, I. Kouvelas,= R. Parekh, 527 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Z.Zhang "PIM Sparse Mo= de"", March 2016. [major] This reference should be Normative. 529 =C2=A0 [RFC8296] =C2=A0"IJ. Wijnands, E. Rosen, A. Dolganow, J. Yantsu= ra, S. 530 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Aldrin, I. Meilik, "En= capsulation for BIER"", January 531 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02018. [major] This reference should be Normative. 533 =C2=A0 [RFC8401] =C2=A0"Ginsberg, L., Przygienda, T., Aldrin, S., and = Z. Zhang, 534 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"BIER Support via ISIS= "", June 2018. [major] Unused reference. 536 =C2=A0 [RFC8444] =C2=A0"Psenak, P., Kumar, N., Wijnands, IJ., Dolganow= , A., 537 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Przygienda, T., Zhang,= Z., and S. Aldrin, "OSPF Extensions 538 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for Bit Index Explicit= Replication"", June 2018. [major] Unused reference. 540 =C2=A0 [RFC8556] =C2=A0"Rosen, E., Ed., Sivakumar, M., Wijnands, IJ., = Aldrin, 541 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0S.,Dolganow, A., and T= . Przygienda, "Multicast VPN Using 542 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER"", March 2018. [major] Unused reference. 544 Appendix A. 546 =C2=A0 This appendix provides some examples and routing procedures tha= t can 547 =C2=A0 be used to determine the EBBR on IBBR. =C2=A0It should be noted= , the PIM 548 =C2=A0 domains can be either part of the same IGP area as BIER domain(= single 549 =C2=A0 area) or are stitched to the BIER domain via an ABR or ASBR rou= ters. 550 =C2=A0 As such on IBBR, there can be many different procedures to dete= rmine 551 =C2=A0 the EBBR. =C2=A0Not all procedures are listed below. [nit] s/examples and routing procedures/examples of routing procedures [nit] s/EBBR on IBBR/EBBR at the IBBR [major] I think that talking about overlaps (or lack of) between PIM, BIER, and general flooding domains may raise significant questions related to the specification. =C2=A0Personally, I wouldn't go there. 553 A.1. =C2=A0SPF [major] SPF may be an understood reference to a link-state protocol, but it may not be properly understood by the casual reader. =C2=A0Please mention link-state protocols instead. ... 570 A.2.1. =C2=A0Static Route 572 =C2=A0 On IBBR there can be a static route configured for the source, = with 573 =C2=A0 source next-hop set as EBBR BIER prefix. [nit] NEW> =C2=A0 =C2=A0A static route to the source can be configured on the IBBR wit= h the =C2=A0 =C2=A0next-hop set as the EBBR's BFR-prefix. 575 A.2.2. =C2=A0Interior Border Gateway Protocol (iBGP) 577 =C2=A0 Consider the following topology: 579 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BBR =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BBR 580 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0EBBR =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0IBBR 581 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|--PIM Domain--|-----BIER dom= ain-----|--PIM domain--| 582 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S--( A )----------( B ) ---- ( C ) ---- ( D )----= ------( E )--h [nit] Using "BBR" on top of EBBR/IBBR is redundant. 584 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 5: Static Route 586 =C2=A0 Suppose BGP is enable between EBBR (B) and IBBR (D) and the PIM 587 =C2=A0 Domain routes are redistributed to the BIER domain via BGP. =C2= =A0This 588 =C2=A0 would include the Multicast Source IP address (S), which reside= s in 589 =C2=A0 the PIM Domain. =C2=A0In such case BGP should use the same loop= back 590 =C2=A0 interface as its next-hop as the BBR prefix. =C2=A0This will en= sure that 591 =C2=A0 all PIM domain routes, including the Multicast Source IP addres= s (S) 592 =C2=A0 are resolve via BBR's BIER prefix id as their next-hop. =C2=A0W= hen the 593 =C2=A0 host (h) triggers a PIM join message to IBBR (D), IBBR tries to 594 =C2=A0 resolve (S). =C2=A0It resolves (S) via BGP installed route and = realizes 595 =C2=A0 its next-hop is EBBR (B). =C2=A0IBBR will use this next-hop (B)= to find 596 =C2=A0 its corresponding BIER bit index. [minor] "BGP should use the same loopback interface as its next-hop as the BBR prefix" =C2=A0 There is no relationship between BGP and the BFR-prefix. Suggestions> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 5 shows BGP enabled between the EBBR (B) and the IBBR (= D), and =C2=A0 =C2=A0it is used to distribute the routes from the the PIM Domain th= rough the =C2=A0 =C2=A0BIER domain, including the Multicast Source IP address (S). = =C2=A0The peering =C2=A0 =C2=A0address used for BGP should belong to the same block as the BF= R-prefix if =C2=A0 =C2=A0the EBBR =C2=A0to ensure that all routes from the PIM domain a= re resolved via =C2=A0 =C2=A0the EBBR's BFR-prefix as their next-hop. 598 =C2=A0 This procedure is inline with [RFC6826] mLDP in-band signaling 599 =C2=A0 section [] I don't see the relevance of this sentence. =C2=A0Please take it out. [End of Review -11] From nobody Tue Jun 22 03:29:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BAE3A1F94 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 03:29:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sMuwbeHtE18W for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 03:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD3583A1F92 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 03:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C3154802F; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:28:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 6A9484E7828; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:28:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:28:55 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Shepherd Cc: BIER WG Message-ID: <20210622102855.GE5939@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:29:10 -0000 Greg, *: I would like to help,... but better not promise more than best effort cycles, which may be rare under presence of more businss criticial cycles. I am not quite clear yet, what specifically would be in our out of scope of such an rfc8279bis? effort. I remember that when we updated PIM-SM for its 'bis RFCs, someone had collected a long list of issues/improvement suggestions. Maybe we should have a wiki page on the ietf BIER wiki to allow WG members to contribute suggestions for improvements to make it easier to track possible work items ? Working through bier-te-arch for updating to ADs review last weeks, i revisited some parts of 8279 to better align with them, so some thoughts to help such a list somewhat cenric to that: 1. Pictures! Section 4 might benefit from a picture visualizing the layerin, maybe the picture in bier-te-arch could serve as a starting point. 2. Explicitly call out control vs. forwarding plane Section 4.2 does not explicitly distinguish between what of its bullet point list is BIER layer control plane vs. BIER layer forwarding plane. Maybe separating would be nice. 3. distributed vs. decentralized/centralized BIER layer control plane The whole document is written (IMHO) so as to imply that the control plane is distributed. This is definitely what we defined so far in the WG (with ISIS, OSPF), and IMHO the biggest benefit of BIER compared to e.g.: BIER-TE which because of its need to engineer the trees more naturally depends on a controller. Nevertheless, i remember Tony and others to reiterate in past meetings that we could also build/implement BIER purely with controller driven conrol plane. If it is indeed a goal to open hat door, than such an option might be better documented. Example of text that seems to exclude a solely controller based BIER layer control plane: (4.2) "Protocols and procedures that a given BFR uses to advertise, to all other BFRs in the same BIER domain" 4. Need for / Role of BIRTs If controller driven BIER is of interest, IMHO, one corollary is that the BIRTs may be optional, because the way i see it, they really are the data structure populated by the local control plane (IGP/BGP), whereas a controller based control plane may be beter off directly populating the BIFTs. I think it might be easier though to add such thoughts to the architecture when we have worked through such thoughts by being further along with the BIER yang models (i already tried to help with the object model for the BIRT there, i don't think we have even tried to define the real BIFT entries in the yang model). aka: like in unicast/ip-multicast, BIRT to me would live solidly in the BIER layer control plane, required maybe only with distributed control plane options, whereas he BIFT is the control plane API into the BIER layer forwarding plane, aka: mandatory for any BIER forwarder). 5. Acceptable F-BM for BIFT (impacts implementations) If/when we define any yang model for the BIFT, IMHO we would need to resolve the question if/what F-BM would have to be acceptable via such an API. This would have an impact on the forwarding implementations. See slide 8 of my IETF103 preso (https://slidetodoc.com/biertearch-ietf-103-bangkok-draftietfbiertearch01-toerless-eckert-ttecs/ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZY4H6Ql_I&t=13s at 1:31:00 ) 6. Which layer does the IGP live in ? One of the corollaries not explicitly called out for in 8279 is that AFAIK, the IGP itself seems to live in the conrol plane of the routing underlay, whereas the BIER extensions of the IGP would live in the control plane of the BIER layer. Aka: the fact that a single control plane (IGP) protocol may stretch across the layers of the BIER architecture may be something to explicitly call out, because this may be somewhat counterintuitive to readers oherwise. 6. API between Flow overlay and BIER layer on BFIR and BFER If/when we wanted to ensure that Flow overlay and BIER layer could be developed independendly on BFIR/BFER (think linux where BIER is implemented once and different apps/overlays want to use it), we may want to have a somewhat more formalized abstract API definition for the BIER layer. Thought experiment: I build on linux BFIR/BFER some flow overlay based on an available MPLS based BIER layer implementation. Then comes along draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding an the BIER layer is extended to support e.g. BIER directly over ethernet. Q: should/could we have defined upfront the BIER-layer to flow overlay API such that i would not have to go back updating/modifying the flow overlay implementation ? I think that would be lovely. Have we given implementers all the help we shuold to enable that ? This goes primarily back to do we expose BIFT-id to flow overlay, and what happens if such in hat draft its semantic changes. Cheers Toerless On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 06:05:16AM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER to > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The following > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to the > list: > > ??? BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > ??? Alia Atlas: ???IANA code-points don???t change. This is the reason why BIER > began as experimental - narrow > point in hourglass??? > ??? The encoding at the ???narrow point of the hourglass??? ??? the forwarding > plane ??? is the foundation from which > the rest of the architecture grows. > ??? This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of the > original WG Experimental Charter. > ??? This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those involved in > the WG from the beginning. But it is also > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > update the BIER architecture to make this > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since been > made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance of the > forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understood by > the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, > the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and > even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Sun Jun 27 20:44:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9F73A28D5 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 2021 20:44:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kQwl-Ol3TANl for ; Sun, 27 Jun 2021 20:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-m17638.qiye.163.com (mail-m17638.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A5363A28D4 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 2021 20:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP2IOH5QC (unknown [219.142.69.75]) by mail-m17638.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id C43AE1C010B; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 11:44:02 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Toerless Eckert'" , "'Greg Shepherd'" Cc: "'BIER WG'" References: <20210622102855.GE5939@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20210622102855.GE5939@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 11:44:02 +0800 Message-ID: <00b101d76bcf$d655d2b0$83017810$@tsinghua.org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHD7RzwFHsYDuIfx+Bt7dVdVjW7iQFP9JaAq0VEHXA= Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VLWVdZKFlBSkxLS0o3V1ktWUFJV1 kPCRoVCBIfWUFZQ0gZQ1ZNT0gYSB8fShlPH0hVEwETFhoSFyQUDg9ZV1kWGg8SFR0UWUFZT0tIVU pKS0hKTFVLWQY+ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6M006Mhw4CT9JOjUIGhEpECI0 HVYaCjVVSlVKTUlPQ05KQ09ISUNPVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxOWVdZCAFZQUJOTko3Bg++ X-HM-Tid: 0a7a50b78756d993kuwsc43ae1c010b Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 03:44:14 -0000 Hi, Toerless: Related to your 3rd point(centralized BIER layer control plane), we have summited one draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-pce-pcep-extension-multicast- management-00.txt to cover this topic. The updated version of this draft will be provided soon in these days, and we would like to make one introduction for this draft in the coming IETF meeting. Best Regards Aijun Wang China Telecom -----Original Message----- From: bier-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 6:29 PM To: Greg Shepherd Cc: BIER WG Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC Greg, *: I would like to help,... but better not promise more than best effort cycles, which may be rare under presence of more businss criticial cycles. I am not quite clear yet, what specifically would be in our out of scope of such an rfc8279bis? effort. I remember that when we updated PIM-SM for its 'bis RFCs, someone had collected a long list of issues/improvement suggestions. Maybe we should have a wiki page on the ietf BIER wiki to allow WG members to contribute suggestions for improvements to make it easier to track possible work items ? Working through bier-te-arch for updating to ADs review last weeks, i revisited some parts of 8279 to better align with them, so some thoughts to help such a list somewhat cenric to that: 1. Pictures! Section 4 might benefit from a picture visualizing the layerin, maybe the picture in bier-te-arch could serve as a starting point. 2. Explicitly call out control vs. forwarding plane Section 4.2 does not explicitly distinguish between what of its bullet point list is BIER layer control plane vs. BIER layer forwarding plane. Maybe separating would be nice. 3. distributed vs. decentralized/centralized BIER layer control plane The whole document is written (IMHO) so as to imply that the control plane is distributed. This is definitely what we defined so far in the WG (with ISIS, OSPF), and IMHO the biggest benefit of BIER compared to e.g.: BIER-TE which because of its need to engineer the trees more naturally depends on a controller. Nevertheless, i remember Tony and others to reiterate in past meetings that we could also build/implement BIER purely with controller driven conrol plane. If it is indeed a goal to open hat door, than such an option might be better documented. Example of text that seems to exclude a solely controller based BIER layer control plane: (4.2) "Protocols and procedures that a given BFR uses to advertise, to all other BFRs in the same BIER domain" 4. Need for / Role of BIRTs If controller driven BIER is of interest, IMHO, one corollary is that the BIRTs may be optional, because the way i see it, they really are the data structure populated by the local control plane (IGP/BGP), whereas a controller based control plane may be beter off directly populating the BIFTs. I think it might be easier though to add such thoughts to the architecture when we have worked through such thoughts by being further along with the BIER yang models (i already tried to help with the object model for the BIRT there, i don't think we have even tried to define the real BIFT entries in the yang model). aka: like in unicast/ip-multicast, BIRT to me would live solidly in the BIER layer control plane, required maybe only with distributed control plane options, whereas he BIFT is the control plane API into the BIER layer forwarding plane, aka: mandatory for any BIER forwarder). 5. Acceptable F-BM for BIFT (impacts implementations) If/when we define any yang model for the BIFT, IMHO we would need to resolve the question if/what F-BM would have to be acceptable via such an API. This would have an impact on the forwarding implementations. See slide 8 of my IETF103 preso (https://slidetodoc.com/biertearch-ietf-103-bangkok-draftietfbiertearch01-to erless-eckert-ttecs/ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZY4H6Ql_I&t=13s at 1:31:00 ) 6. Which layer does the IGP live in ? One of the corollaries not explicitly called out for in 8279 is that AFAIK, the IGP itself seems to live in the conrol plane of the routing underlay, whereas the BIER extensions of the IGP would live in the control plane of the BIER layer. Aka: the fact that a single control plane (IGP) protocol may stretch across the layers of the BIER architecture may be something to explicitly call out, because this may be somewhat counterintuitive to readers oherwise. 6. API between Flow overlay and BIER layer on BFIR and BFER If/when we wanted to ensure that Flow overlay and BIER layer could be developed independendly on BFIR/BFER (think linux where BIER is implemented once and different apps/overlays want to use it), we may want to have a somewhat more formalized abstract API definition for the BIER layer. Thought experiment: I build on linux BFIR/BFER some flow overlay based on an available MPLS based BIER layer implementation. Then comes along draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding an the BIER layer is extended to support e.g. BIER directly over ethernet. Q: should/could we have defined upfront the BIER-layer to flow overlay API such that i would not have to go back updating/modifying the flow overlay implementation ? I think that would be lovely. Have we given implementers all the help we shuold to enable that ? This goes primarily back to do we expose BIFT-id to flow overlay, and what happens if such in hat draft its semantic changes. Cheers Toerless On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 06:05:16AM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get > BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. > The following bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary > previously sent to the > list: > > ??? BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 ??? Alia Atlas: ???IANA > code-points don???t change. This is the reason why BIER began as > experimental - narrow > point in hourglass??? > ??? The encoding at the ???narrow point of the hourglass??? ??? the > forwarding plane ??? is the foundation from which > the rest of the architecture grows. > ??? This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time > of the original WG Experimental Charter. > ??? This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those > involved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs > to update the BIER architecture to make this > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the > importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture > was well understood by the community at large. That no longer seems to > be the case. Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft > of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER > at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the > core tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier From nobody Mon Jun 28 10:40:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA1E3A122B for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8pMeEWaU9Oko for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 934233A1229 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id l24so2021412ejq.11 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:40:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=QsH7Ia9muWPdEthPfg9sr9tf/uh148N39h99cFmZb4Y=; b=JOJcaPMffkw3sau4Zo+IpmSyuXpUlhFlzXHtQkSuIg0YrUnP/cMjq5uFTZs43bMT7M 8u26Jm1nz+A/MJ/wriXGWHRTw0bQAy8WoIod2peA6L/bPuPYjK1s95em6qhMbnwE4hBV 5eKYb9a40WYcOct4UCt+13ztoW4rJSPdviK0ZsTBuyBaZX4g7XJVFl1031p4GpPQ++P5 kuxARYa4gqdZ+UhXn66oCQ1INI75A6o+k/Xy6KwS7cOGCf4nry9LUp9c7ioK2OKspEf5 F42r018b26HipCKSgvJUEpcUSJggktM4m01w5OjXMkgx43EblHgz/5HEeYlRu5idHR37 j0OQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QsH7Ia9muWPdEthPfg9sr9tf/uh148N39h99cFmZb4Y=; b=fpyTHqXpD/EVfmd2xNCgcTQUhgizArz5urEKu68dc1uDYP3VJ1z6v7MUk84SRWFur+ JljP8f7e1FI/UphdfobeXRHea8Jx/HMmtekLGJzqvYYN7IRz1BmwEpMtnKhcp7nylbze tK7T13Aq2GadhhqZVh71XkuZjIhdpNUsg7SCMZ2wpicwh7fkiK+eBrNldxtcDabGY7wX 4lHyyGCRVGPKpCy7gUQMaiiAhiZYx4At+JCz0EfCCIRrGPEkIZJmFHmB00UVQ/5Fx8Y1 CrRPU6s86goYS28jyt8vkocWerHlmZtsJJHUy6J/8Il8BFIfSmosvNHK+IaONcolIpQv 5mGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530uN6iJRCKRdd/v5e/pP8EvwtpK5vfS2+aQbnpnr/16lYN89vhf aC2nQ11PgKRIIRXS9g5izxOpEFnjKTNaX99fu5I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxleEzeXyuGhkGZg/EeyXHCToTaFmiCIvqXarH1872wKU9i3T8CpCWh7RIqYnAtlIrXvXTrtznJlRO4XGjvbvU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:6b8a:: with SMTP id l10mr25077302ejr.125.1624902040983; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:40:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210622102855.GE5939@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20210622102855.GE5939@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:40:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f29b7305c5d6fca2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 17:40:48 -0000 --000000000000f29b7305c5d6fca2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks Toerless. All good suggestions, and valuable input. I'm certain Sandy will welcome your help. Cheers, Greg On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 3:29 AM Toerless Eckert wrote: > Greg, *: > > I would like to help,... but better not promise more than best effort > cycles, which may be rare > under presence of more businss criticial cycles. > > I am not quite clear yet, what specifically would be in our out of scope > of such > an rfc8279bis? effort. I remember that when we updated PIM-SM for its 'bis > RFCs, > someone had collected a long list of issues/improvement suggestions. Maybe > we should have a wiki page on the ietf BIER wiki to allow WG members to > contribute > suggestions for improvements to make it easier to track possible work > items ? > > Working through bier-te-arch for updating to ADs review last weeks, i > revisited > some parts of 8279 to better align with them, so some thoughts to help > such a list somewhat cenric to that: > > 1. Pictures! > > Section 4 might benefit from a picture visualizing the layerin, > maybe the picture in bier-te-arch could serve as a starting point. > > 2. Explicitly call out control vs. forwarding plane > > Section 4.2 does not explicitly distinguish between what of its bullet > point list is BIER layer control plane vs. BIER layer forwarding plane. > Maybe separating would be nice. > > 3. distributed vs. decentralized/centralized BIER layer control plane > > The whole document is written (IMHO) so as to imply that the control > plane > is distributed. This is definitely what we defined so far in the WG > (with ISIS, OSPF), and IMHO the biggest benefit of BIER compared > to e.g.: BIER-TE which because of its need to engineer the trees > more naturally depends on a controller. > > Nevertheless, i remember Tony and others to reiterate in past meetings > that we could > also build/implement BIER purely with controller driven conrol plane. > If it is indeed a goal to open hat door, than such an option might be > better documented. > > Example of text that seems to exclude a solely controller based BIER > layer control plane: > > (4.2) "Protocols and procedures that a given BFR uses to advertise, to > all other BFRs in the same BIER domain" > > 4. Need for / Role of BIRTs > > If controller driven BIER is of interest, IMHO, one corollary is that > the BIRTs may be optional, because the way i see it, they really are > the data structure populated by the local control plane (IGP/BGP), > whereas > a controller based control plane may be beter off directly populating > the BIFTs. I think it might be easier though to add such thoughts to > the architecture when we have worked through such thoughts by being > further along with the BIER yang models (i already tried to help with > the object model for the BIRT there, i don't think we have even tried > to define the real BIFT entries in the yang model). > > aka: like in unicast/ip-multicast, BIRT to me would live solidly > in the BIER layer control plane, required maybe only with distributed > control plane options, whereas he BIFT is the control plane API into > the BIER layer > forwarding plane, aka: mandatory for any BIER forwarder). > > 5. Acceptable F-BM for BIFT (impacts implementations) > > If/when we define any yang model for the BIFT, IMHO we would need to > resolve the question if/what F-BM would have to be acceptable via such > an API. This would have an impact on the forwarding implementations. > > See slide 8 of my IETF103 preso ( > https://slidetodoc.com/biertearch-ietf-103-bangkok-draftietfbiertearch01-toerless-eckert-ttecs/ > , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZY4H6Ql_I&t=13s at 1:31:00 ) > > 6. Which layer does the IGP live in ? > > One of the corollaries not explicitly called out for in 8279 is that > AFAIK, the IGP itself seems to live in the conrol plane of the routing > underlay, whereas the BIER extensions of the IGP would live in the > control plane of the BIER layer. > > Aka: the fact that a single control plane (IGP) protocol may stretch > across > the layers of the BIER architecture may be something to explicitly call > out, > because this may be somewhat counterintuitive to readers oherwise. > > 6. API between Flow overlay and BIER layer on BFIR and BFER > > If/when we wanted to ensure that Flow overlay and BIER layer could be > developed independendly on BFIR/BFER (think linux where BIER is > implemented > once and different apps/overlays want to use it), we may want to have a > somewhat more formalized abstract API definition for the BIER layer. > > Thought experiment: I build on linux BFIR/BFER some flow overlay based > on > an available MPLS based BIER layer implementation. Then comes along > draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding an the BIER layer is extended to > support e.g. BIER directly over ethernet. Q: should/could we have > defined upfront the BIER-layer to flow overlay API such that i would not > have to go back updating/modifying the flow overlay implementation ? > I think that would be lovely. Have we given implementers all the help we > shuold to enable that ? > > This goes primarily back to do we expose BIFT-id to flow overlay, > and what happens if such in hat draft its semantic changes. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 06:05:16AM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER > to > > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The > following > > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to > the > > list: > > > > ??? BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > > ??? Alia Atlas: ???IANA code-points don???t change. This is the reason > why BIER > > began as experimental - narrow > > point in hourglass??? > > ??? The encoding at the ???narrow point of the hourglass??? ??? the > forwarding > > plane ??? is the foundation from which > > the rest of the architecture grows. > > ??? This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of > the > > original WG Experimental Charter. > > ??? This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those > involved in > > the WG from the beginning. But it is also > > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > > update the BIER architecture to make this > > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > been > > made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance of > the > > forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understood by > > the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. > Additionally, > > the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and > > even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > --000000000000f29b7305c5d6fca2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Toerless. All good suggestions, an= d valuable input. I'm certain Sandy will welcome your help.

Cheers,
Greg

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 3:2= 9 AM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de= > wrote:
Greg, *:

I would like to help,... but better not promise more than best effort cycle= s, which may be rare
under presence of more businss criticial cycles.

I am not quite clear yet, what specifically would be in our out of scope of= such
an rfc8279bis? effort. I remember that when we updated PIM-SM for its '= bis RFCs,
someone had collected a long list of issues/improvement suggestions. Maybe<= br> we should have a wiki page on the ietf BIER wiki to allow WG members to con= tribute
suggestions for improvements to make it easier to track possible work items= ?

Working through bier-te-arch for updating to ADs review last weeks, i revis= ited
some parts of 8279 to better align with them, so some thoughts to help
such a list somewhat cenric to that:

1. Pictures!

=C2=A0 Section 4 might benefit from a picture visualizing the layerin,
=C2=A0 maybe the picture in bier-te-arch could serve as a starting point.
2. Explicitly call out control vs. forwarding plane

=C2=A0 Section 4.2 does not explicitly distinguish between what of its bull= et
=C2=A0 point list is BIER layer control plane vs. BIER layer forwarding pla= ne.
=C2=A0 Maybe separating would be nice.

3. distributed vs. decentralized/centralized BIER layer control plane

=C2=A0 The whole document is written (IMHO) so as to imply that the control= plane
=C2=A0 is distributed. This is definitely what we defined so far in the WG<= br> =C2=A0 (with ISIS, OSPF), and IMHO the biggest benefit of BIER compared
=C2=A0 to e.g.: BIER-TE which because of its need to engineer the trees
=C2=A0 more naturally depends on a controller.

=C2=A0 Nevertheless, i remember Tony and others to reiterate in past meetin= gs that we could
=C2=A0 also build/implement BIER purely with controller driven conrol plane= .
=C2=A0 If it is indeed a goal to open hat door, than such an option might b= e better documented.

=C2=A0 Example of text that seems to exclude a solely controller based BIER= layer control plane:

=C2=A0 (4.2) "Protocols and procedures that a given BFR uses to advert= ise, to all other BFRs in the same BIER domain"

4. Need for / Role of BIRTs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0If controller driven BIER is of interest, IMHO, one corollary = is that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the BIRTs may be optional, because the way i see it, they real= ly are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the data structure populated by the local control plane (IGP/B= GP), whereas
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a controller based control plane may be beter off directly pop= ulating
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the BIFTs. I think it might be easier though to add such thoug= hts to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the architecture when we have worked through such thoughts by = being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0further along with the BIER yang models (i already tried to he= lp with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the object model for the BIRT there, i don't think we have= even tried
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to define the real BIFT entries in the yang model).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0aka: like in unicast/ip-multicast, BIRT to me would live solid= ly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the BIER layer control plane, required maybe only with dist= ributed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0control plane options, whereas he BIFT is the control plane AP= I into the BIER layer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarding plane, aka: mandatory for any BIER forwarder).

5. Acceptable F-BM for BIFT (impacts implementations)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0If/when we define any yang model for the BIFT, IMHO we would n= eed to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0resolve the question if/what F-BM would have to be acceptable = via such
=C2=A0 =C2=A0an API. This would have an impact on the forwarding implementa= tions.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0See slide 8 of my IETF103 preso (https://slidetodoc.com/biertearch-= ietf-103-bangkok-draftietfbiertearch01-toerless-eckert-ttecs/ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUBZY4H6Ql_I&= t=3D13s at 1:31:00 )

6. Which layer does the IGP live in ?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0One of the corollaries not explicitly called out for in 8279 i= s that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0AFAIK, the IGP itself seems to live in the conrol plane of the= routing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0underlay, whereas the BIER extensions of the IGP would live in= the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0control plane of the BIER layer.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aka: the fact that a single control plane (IGP) protocol may s= tretch across
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the layers of the BIER architecture may be something to explic= itly call out,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0because this may be somewhat counterintuitive to readers oherw= ise.

6. API between Flow overlay and BIER layer on BFIR and BFER

=C2=A0 =C2=A0If/when we wanted to ensure that Flow overlay and BIER layer c= ould be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0developed independendly on BFIR/BFER (think linux where BIER i= s implemented
=C2=A0 =C2=A0once and different apps/overlays want to use it), we may want = to have a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0somewhat more formalized abstract API definition for the BIER = layer.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thought experiment: I build on linux BFIR/BFER some flow overl= ay based on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0an available MPLS based BIER layer implementation. Then comes = along
=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding an the BIER layer is ex= tended to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support e.g. BIER directly over ethernet. Q: should/could we h= ave
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined upfront the BIER-layer to flow overlay API such that i= would not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0have to go back updating/modifying the flow overlay implementa= tion ?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think that would be lovely. Have we given implementers all t= he help we
=C2=A0 =C2=A0shuold to enable that ?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This goes primarily back to do we expose BIFT-id to flow overl= ay,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and what happens if such in hat draft its semantic changes.
Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 06:05:16AM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote:
> A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard = to get BIER to
> where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The follo= wing
> bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously se= nt to the
> list:
>
> ??? BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296
> ??? Alia Atlas: ???IANA code-points don???t change.=C2=A0 This is the = reason why BIER
> began as experimental - narrow
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0point in hourglass???
> ??? The encoding at the ???narrow point of the hourglass??? ??? the fo= rwarding
> plane ???=C2=A0 is the foundation from which
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the rest of the architecture grows. > ??? This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time = of the
> original WG Experimental Charter.
> ??? This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those invol= ved in
> the WG from the beginning. But it is also
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a core tenet of the layered and scala= ble architecture of the
> Internet and was erroneously assumed as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0well-understood by the original WG co= ntributors. The WG needs to
> update the BIER architecture to make this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responsibility clear for all future c= ontributors.
>
> RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since= been
> made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance of= the
> forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understood= by
> the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additiona= lly,
> the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, a= nd
> even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype.
>
> This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER = at
> the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation
> mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the c= ore
> tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet.
>
> If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread.<= br> >
> Thanks,
> Greg
> (Chairs)

> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier


--
---
tte@cs.fau.de
--000000000000f29b7305c5d6fca2-- From nobody Mon Jun 28 16:22:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 598A43A1B06 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:22:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.951 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.951 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u_6zgOrWnyC8 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 825533A1B08 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE2A54806A; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 01:22:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id B96B74E78C5; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 01:22:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 01:22:17 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Greg Shepherd Cc: BIER WG Message-ID: <20210628232217.GA5535@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20210622102855.GE5939@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 23:22:29 -0000 Thanks, Greg. Would be great if any work towards bis'ing the RFC would be set up openy enough such that this type of help/support will continue to be possible (e.g.: if there is a DT style approach, pls. make it open). Cheers toerless On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 10:40:29AM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > Thanks Toerless. All good suggestions, and valuable input. I'm certain > Sandy will welcome your help. > > Cheers, > Greg > > On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 3:29 AM Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > Greg, *: > > > > I would like to help,... but better not promise more than best effort > > cycles, which may be rare > > under presence of more businss criticial cycles. > > > > I am not quite clear yet, what specifically would be in our out of scope > > of such > > an rfc8279bis? effort. I remember that when we updated PIM-SM for its 'bis > > RFCs, > > someone had collected a long list of issues/improvement suggestions. Maybe > > we should have a wiki page on the ietf BIER wiki to allow WG members to > > contribute > > suggestions for improvements to make it easier to track possible work > > items ? > > > > Working through bier-te-arch for updating to ADs review last weeks, i > > revisited > > some parts of 8279 to better align with them, so some thoughts to help > > such a list somewhat cenric to that: > > > > 1. Pictures! > > > > Section 4 might benefit from a picture visualizing the layerin, > > maybe the picture in bier-te-arch could serve as a starting point. > > > > 2. Explicitly call out control vs. forwarding plane > > > > Section 4.2 does not explicitly distinguish between what of its bullet > > point list is BIER layer control plane vs. BIER layer forwarding plane. > > Maybe separating would be nice. > > > > 3. distributed vs. decentralized/centralized BIER layer control plane > > > > The whole document is written (IMHO) so as to imply that the control > > plane > > is distributed. This is definitely what we defined so far in the WG > > (with ISIS, OSPF), and IMHO the biggest benefit of BIER compared > > to e.g.: BIER-TE which because of its need to engineer the trees > > more naturally depends on a controller. > > > > Nevertheless, i remember Tony and others to reiterate in past meetings > > that we could > > also build/implement BIER purely with controller driven conrol plane. > > If it is indeed a goal to open hat door, than such an option might be > > better documented. > > > > Example of text that seems to exclude a solely controller based BIER > > layer control plane: > > > > (4.2) "Protocols and procedures that a given BFR uses to advertise, to > > all other BFRs in the same BIER domain" > > > > 4. Need for / Role of BIRTs > > > > If controller driven BIER is of interest, IMHO, one corollary is that > > the BIRTs may be optional, because the way i see it, they really are > > the data structure populated by the local control plane (IGP/BGP), > > whereas > > a controller based control plane may be beter off directly populating > > the BIFTs. I think it might be easier though to add such thoughts to > > the architecture when we have worked through such thoughts by being > > further along with the BIER yang models (i already tried to help with > > the object model for the BIRT there, i don't think we have even tried > > to define the real BIFT entries in the yang model). > > > > aka: like in unicast/ip-multicast, BIRT to me would live solidly > > in the BIER layer control plane, required maybe only with distributed > > control plane options, whereas he BIFT is the control plane API into > > the BIER layer > > forwarding plane, aka: mandatory for any BIER forwarder). > > > > 5. Acceptable F-BM for BIFT (impacts implementations) > > > > If/when we define any yang model for the BIFT, IMHO we would need to > > resolve the question if/what F-BM would have to be acceptable via such > > an API. This would have an impact on the forwarding implementations. > > > > See slide 8 of my IETF103 preso ( > > https://slidetodoc.com/biertearch-ietf-103-bangkok-draftietfbiertearch01-toerless-eckert-ttecs/ > > , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZY4H6Ql_I&t=13s at 1:31:00 ) > > > > 6. Which layer does the IGP live in ? > > > > One of the corollaries not explicitly called out for in 8279 is that > > AFAIK, the IGP itself seems to live in the conrol plane of the routing > > underlay, whereas the BIER extensions of the IGP would live in the > > control plane of the BIER layer. > > > > Aka: the fact that a single control plane (IGP) protocol may stretch > > across > > the layers of the BIER architecture may be something to explicitly call > > out, > > because this may be somewhat counterintuitive to readers oherwise. > > > > 6. API between Flow overlay and BIER layer on BFIR and BFER > > > > If/when we wanted to ensure that Flow overlay and BIER layer could be > > developed independendly on BFIR/BFER (think linux where BIER is > > implemented > > once and different apps/overlays want to use it), we may want to have a > > somewhat more formalized abstract API definition for the BIER layer. > > > > Thought experiment: I build on linux BFIR/BFER some flow overlay based > > on > > an available MPLS based BIER layer implementation. Then comes along > > draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding an the BIER layer is extended to > > support e.g. BIER directly over ethernet. Q: should/could we have > > defined upfront the BIER-layer to flow overlay API such that i would not > > have to go back updating/modifying the flow overlay implementation ? > > I think that would be lovely. Have we given implementers all the help we > > shuold to enable that ? > > > > This goes primarily back to do we expose BIFT-id to flow overlay, > > and what happens if such in hat draft its semantic changes. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 06:05:16AM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > > > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER > > to > > > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The > > following > > > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to > > the > > > list: > > > > > > ??? BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > > > ??? Alia Atlas: ???IANA code-points don???t change. This is the reason > > why BIER > > > began as experimental - narrow > > > point in hourglass??? > > > ??? The encoding at the ???narrow point of the hourglass??? ??? the > > forwarding > > > plane ??? is the foundation from which > > > the rest of the architecture grows. > > > ??? This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of > > the > > > original WG Experimental Charter. > > > ??? This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those > > involved in > > > the WG from the beginning. But it is also > > > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > > > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > > > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > > > update the BIER architecture to make this > > > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > > > > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > > been > > > made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance of > > the > > > forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understood by > > > the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. > > Additionally, > > > the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and > > > even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > > > > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > > > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > > > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > > > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > > > > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Greg > > > (Chairs) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BIER mailing list > > > BIER@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Jun 28 16:27:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA6B3A1B38 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:27:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q4z3HByRPMC8 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECF233A1B2B for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A9F54806A; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 01:27:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 1186D4E78C5; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 01:27:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 01:27:25 +0200 From: 'Toerless Eckert' To: Aijun Wang Cc: 'Greg Shepherd' , 'BIER WG' Message-ID: <20210628232725.GB5535@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20210622102855.GE5939@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <00b101d76bcf$d655d2b0$83017810$@tsinghua.org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00b101d76bcf$d655d2b0$83017810$@tsinghua.org.cn> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 23:27:37 -0000 Thanks. Added to reading list. given how you have named this -pce- (and not -bier-), it will not show up automatically on the BIER WG datatracker list of associated documents. If this is meant to be read by BIER folks, please ask BIER chairs to have this doc associated with BIER on datatracker (few clicks for a chair on datatracker!) Cheers Toerless On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 11:44:02AM +0800, Aijun Wang wrote: > Hi, Toerless: > > Related to your 3rd point(centralized BIER layer control plane), we have > summited one draft > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-pce-pcep-extension-multicast- > management-00.txt to cover this topic. > The updated version of this draft will be provided soon in these days, and > we would like to make one introduction for this draft in the coming IETF > meeting. > > Best Regards > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > > -----Original Message----- > From: bier-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of Toerless > Eckert > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 6:29 PM > To: Greg Shepherd > Cc: BIER WG > Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC > > Greg, *: > > I would like to help,... but better not promise more than best effort > cycles, which may be rare under presence of more businss criticial cycles. > > I am not quite clear yet, what specifically would be in our out of scope of > such an rfc8279bis? effort. I remember that when we updated PIM-SM for its > 'bis RFCs, someone had collected a long list of issues/improvement > suggestions. Maybe we should have a wiki page on the ietf BIER wiki to allow > WG members to contribute suggestions for improvements to make it easier to > track possible work items ? > > Working through bier-te-arch for updating to ADs review last weeks, i > revisited some parts of 8279 to better align with them, so some thoughts to > help such a list somewhat cenric to that: > > 1. Pictures! > > Section 4 might benefit from a picture visualizing the layerin, > maybe the picture in bier-te-arch could serve as a starting point. > > 2. Explicitly call out control vs. forwarding plane > > Section 4.2 does not explicitly distinguish between what of its bullet > point list is BIER layer control plane vs. BIER layer forwarding plane. > Maybe separating would be nice. > > 3. distributed vs. decentralized/centralized BIER layer control plane > > The whole document is written (IMHO) so as to imply that the control plane > is distributed. This is definitely what we defined so far in the WG > (with ISIS, OSPF), and IMHO the biggest benefit of BIER compared > to e.g.: BIER-TE which because of its need to engineer the trees > more naturally depends on a controller. > > Nevertheless, i remember Tony and others to reiterate in past meetings > that we could > also build/implement BIER purely with controller driven conrol plane. > If it is indeed a goal to open hat door, than such an option might be > better documented. > > Example of text that seems to exclude a solely controller based BIER layer > control plane: > > (4.2) "Protocols and procedures that a given BFR uses to advertise, to all > other BFRs in the same BIER domain" > > 4. Need for / Role of BIRTs > > If controller driven BIER is of interest, IMHO, one corollary is that > the BIRTs may be optional, because the way i see it, they really are > the data structure populated by the local control plane (IGP/BGP), > whereas > a controller based control plane may be beter off directly populating > the BIFTs. I think it might be easier though to add such thoughts to > the architecture when we have worked through such thoughts by being > further along with the BIER yang models (i already tried to help with > the object model for the BIRT there, i don't think we have even tried > to define the real BIFT entries in the yang model). > > aka: like in unicast/ip-multicast, BIRT to me would live solidly > in the BIER layer control plane, required maybe only with distributed > control plane options, whereas he BIFT is the control plane API into the > BIER layer > forwarding plane, aka: mandatory for any BIER forwarder). > > 5. Acceptable F-BM for BIFT (impacts implementations) > > If/when we define any yang model for the BIFT, IMHO we would need to > resolve the question if/what F-BM would have to be acceptable via such > an API. This would have an impact on the forwarding implementations. > > See slide 8 of my IETF103 preso > (https://slidetodoc.com/biertearch-ietf-103-bangkok-draftietfbiertearch01-to > erless-eckert-ttecs/ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZY4H6Ql_I&t=13s at > 1:31:00 ) > > 6. Which layer does the IGP live in ? > > One of the corollaries not explicitly called out for in 8279 is that > AFAIK, the IGP itself seems to live in the conrol plane of the routing > underlay, whereas the BIER extensions of the IGP would live in the > control plane of the BIER layer. > > Aka: the fact that a single control plane (IGP) protocol may stretch > across > the layers of the BIER architecture may be something to explicitly call > out, > because this may be somewhat counterintuitive to readers oherwise. > > 6. API between Flow overlay and BIER layer on BFIR and BFER > > If/when we wanted to ensure that Flow overlay and BIER layer could be > developed independendly on BFIR/BFER (think linux where BIER is > implemented > once and different apps/overlays want to use it), we may want to have a > somewhat more formalized abstract API definition for the BIER layer. > > Thought experiment: I build on linux BFIR/BFER some flow overlay based on > an available MPLS based BIER layer implementation. Then comes along > draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding an the BIER layer is extended to > support e.g. BIER directly over ethernet. Q: should/could we have > defined upfront the BIER-layer to flow overlay API such that i would not > have to go back updating/modifying the flow overlay implementation ? > I think that would be lovely. Have we given implementers all the help we > shuold to enable that ? > > This goes primarily back to do we expose BIFT-id to flow overlay, > and what happens if such in hat draft its semantic changes. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 06:05:16AM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get > > BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. > > The following bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary > > previously sent to the > > list: > > > > ??? BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 ??? Alia Atlas: ???IANA > > code-points don???t change. This is the reason why BIER began as > > experimental - narrow > > point in hourglass??? > > ??? The encoding at the ???narrow point of the hourglass??? ??? the > > forwarding plane ??? is the foundation from which > > the rest of the architecture grows. > > ??? This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time > > of the original WG Experimental Charter. > > ??? This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those > > involved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also > > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs > > to update the BIER architecture to make this > > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > > been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the > > importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture > > was well understood by the community at large. That no longer seems to > > be the case. Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft > > of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER > ethertype. > > > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER > > at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the > > core tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Jun 28 20:40:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808173A22D1 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 20:40:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rw2ZHzJ2zBok for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 20:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D43413A22D5 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 20:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id AF878897B86BF63FD022; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:40:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp04.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.203]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 15T3dk7n088649; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:39:46 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp02[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid203; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:39:46 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:39:46 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afa60da9602b36dbd0d X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202106291139463147003@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: CABFReBpjD3V14P8CuO+_OHvZr=XX1c5Dm8SjB9pahJmrQJx5qQ@mail.gmail.com, 20210622102855.GE5939@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de, CABFReBo9HBbiaj5naFqFoQKu5ZmOvoy+XGKR5hA_ixz+D9UePg@mail.gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: , Cc: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 15T3dk7n088649 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?RFC8279=3A_Request_for_authors_to_update_RFC?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 03:40:09 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes. Thanks Toerless very much for your suggestion! Will consider your suggestion carefully. Welcom to join our work! :-) Best regards, Sandy ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：GregShepherd 收件人：Toerless Eckert; 抄送人：BIER WG; 日 期 ：2021年06月29日 01:41 主 题 ：Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC _______________________________________________ BIER mailing list BIER@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier Thanks Toerless. All good suggestions, and valuable input. I'm certain Sandy will welcome your help. Cheers, Greg On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 3:29 AM Toerless Eckert wrote: Greg, *: I would like to help,... but better not promise more than best effort cycles, which may be rare under presence of more businss criticial cycles. I am not quite clear yet, what specifically would be in our out of scope of such an rfc8279bis? effort. I remember that when we updated PIM-SM for its 'bis RFCs, someone had collected a long list of issues/improvement suggestions. Maybe we should have a wiki page on the ietf BIER wiki to allow WG members to contribute suggestions for improvements to make it easier to track possible work items ? Working through bier-te-arch for updating to ADs review last weeks, i revisited some parts of 8279 to better align with them, so some thoughts to help such a list somewhat cenric to that: 1. Pictures! Section 4 might benefit from a picture visualizing the layerin, maybe the picture in bier-te-arch could serve as a starting point. 2. Explicitly call out control vs. forwarding plane Section 4.2 does not explicitly distinguish between what of its bullet point list is BIER layer control plane vs. BIER layer forwarding plane. Maybe separating would be nice. 3. distributed vs. decentralized/centralized BIER layer control plane The whole document is written (IMHO) so as to imply that the control plane is distributed. This is definitely what we defined so far in the WG (with ISIS, OSPF), and IMHO the biggest benefit of BIER compared to e.g.: BIER-TE which because of its need to engineer the trees more naturally depends on a controller. Nevertheless, i remember Tony and others to reiterate in past meetings that we could also build/implement BIER purely with controller driven conrol plane. If it is indeed a goal to open hat door, than such an option might be better documented. Example of text that seems to exclude a solely controller based BIER layer control plane: (4.2) "Protocols and procedures that a given BFR uses to advertise, to all other BFRs in the same BIER domain" 4. Need for / Role of BIRTs If controller driven BIER is of interest, IMHO, one corollary is that the BIRTs may be optional, because the way i see it, they really are the data structure populated by the local control plane (IGP/BGP), whereas a controller based control plane may be beter off directly populating the BIFTs. I think it might be easier though to add such thoughts to the architecture when we have worked through such thoughts by being further along with the BIER yang models (i already tried to help with the object model for the BIRT there, i don't think we have even tried to define the real BIFT entries in the yang model). aka: like in unicast/ip-multicast, BIRT to me would live solidly in the BIER layer control plane, required maybe only with distributed control plane options, whereas he BIFT is the control plane API into the BIER layer forwarding plane, aka: mandatory for any BIER forwarder). 5. Acceptable F-BM for BIFT (impacts implementations) If/when we define any yang model for the BIFT, IMHO we would need to resolve the question if/what F-BM would have to be acceptable via such an API. This would have an impact on the forwarding implementations. See slide 8 of my IETF103 preso (https://slidetodoc.com/biertearch-ietf-103-bangkok-draftietfbiertearch01-toerless-eckert-ttecs/ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZY4H6Ql_I&t=13s at 1:31:00 ) 6. Which layer does the IGP live in ? One of the corollaries not explicitly called out for in 8279 is that AFAIK, the IGP itself seems to live in the conrol plane of the routing underlay, whereas the BIER extensions of the IGP would live in the control plane of the BIER layer. Aka: the fact that a single control plane (IGP) protocol may stretch across the layers of the BIER architecture may be something to explicitly call out, because this may be somewhat counterintuitive to readers oherwise. 6. API between Flow overlay and BIER layer on BFIR and BFER If/when we wanted to ensure that Flow overlay and BIER layer could be developed independendly on BFIR/BFER (think linux where BIER is implemented once and different apps/overlays want to use it), we may want to have a somewhat more formalized abstract API definition for the BIER layer. Thought experiment: I build on linux BFIR/BFER some flow overlay based on an available MPLS based BIER layer implementation. Then comes along draft-ietf-bier-non-mpls-bift-encoding an the BIER layer is extended to support e.g. BIER directly over ethernet. Q: should/could we have defined upfront the BIER-layer to flow overlay API such that i would not have to go back updating/modifying the flow overlay implementation ? I think that would be lovely. Have we given implementers all the help we shuold to enable that ? This goes primarily back to do we expose BIFT-id to flow overlay, and what happens if such in hat draft its semantic changes. Cheers Toerless On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 06:05:16AM -0700, Greg Shepherd wrote: > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER to > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The following > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to the > list: > > ??? BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > ??? Alia Atlas: ???IANA code-points don???t change. This is the reason why BIER > began as experimental - narrow > point in hourglass??? > ??? The encoding at the ???narrow point of the hourglass??? ??? the forwarding > plane ??? is the foundation from which > the rest of the architecture grows. > ??? This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of the > original WG Experimental Charter. > ??? This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those involved in > the WG from the beginning. But it is also > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > update the BIER architecture to make this > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since been > made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance of the > forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understood by > the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, > the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and > even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > Thanks, > Greg > (Chairs) > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier -- --- tte@cs.fau.de --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Tue Jun 29 07:06:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C311C3A3569 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vzZCL6dSeFp4 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09A363A3568 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id n25so4952495edw.9 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:06:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=RY3T3IRbwA2YPQD+hYUC7ylolQCAm2THS63QaahRZGc=; b=oKH4eWmTtc67vafB8blML3/x698k8P2e9MCS0R9faTeNTYX/JcvSF95y/4mWgtpVWa RQuyBJLNzCfTsJ6zXoznWNNWDFMNROzF769qDx28yxjoJvbjB+wfDtNBOH51/hgVDB9J vPiSk0MoJ8tZAroGhkn1Awbo0xRwAnFxuOMpxLQCnu+XkeIObKhVTKCQjYC4PwsNQeZf i2ERuHWoc72k8V3K+xLNImrIKYMRV1YsW9WUG4L9YvmlD2TliLiZTVdO2g3MWlPkyg7b HjwPE1ecdagq1xVh7chze91uNsJZOmF/m3OyXYu5iFlxkIPUAW7mSPTEHLOTSs7KNG3t zrqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RY3T3IRbwA2YPQD+hYUC7ylolQCAm2THS63QaahRZGc=; b=TrJJSjeispu901/joQcYQkuTEuT8GiJrTQLI76vV30NyF7rmRiNXO0FD88sen0usMx LOwzyuXWsmd4h29WA9kuJDlL1db9CNvLTzefS+q3L1HD+XOzovOAsvHQBT+O7NmMZ6ap YekV3ox/DgZCz7sMQsaTwtSdY+8mWL2w3I/Ityb1WUIUskwLMuX8pP2bmrdO1PRhlpsC w2ZxeRVnJ95BckCaz2UsBNXuVeHkMoxVklPtCLIfNcgjUUHhk81ACo6XslUQTRdwpi+g K1wE9dMxGM1Ds0eIiUgWM613TcEglURnbOf+w/UZSGBU82yv1D/OYUS5V8Ij1VT0+ZF4 ybpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533exfWjRsetn4j4Uu4VEZ6FhPGo+oOLIH0XVfwkQAkWNR0hhIYh SuuyBZyin9VQZlff2K9RUHVsFJzRRpP/MiuwYww= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1T9H32H476H1n0JJ+pj505QUepEZWbB0Uzd9ctUqN+2uoMv9R1oDJOBoTvlHZZZ9K7tto0oenmZOvLtrEys8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1777:: with SMTP id da23mr39672958edb.72.1624975596452; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:06:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6509bf2874d94e0ca49d6a2a84bd9fed@huawei.com> <913d606b-31cf-18ab-1ed9-46918283a741@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com From: Greg Shepherd Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:06:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael McBride Cc: Martin Vigoureux , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "bier@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000031ff8205c5e81d9e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 14:06:44 -0000 --00000000000031ff8205c5e81d9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, Sorry for responding so quickly without taking the time to think this through, again. My position on this draft is no secret, but let me clarify: Inline GS: On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride wrote: > Howdy, > > Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit : > > Dear Martin, > > > > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it > reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs. > >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is > L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent. > >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, whic= h > should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal > interpretation. > > >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and > reach consensus on. > > My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply > unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture. GS - My position from the beginning is that it violates the BIER architecture. I have been clear about this since rev 0. But, I have also said that IF there was some compelling benefit from the proposal that it should be considered. But it doesn't offer anything over standard encapsulation. So, 'yes', it violates the BIER architecture, and 'yes' it is unnecessary in that it doesn't provide any value over standard encapsulation. It is also my position that re-asking the same question in hopes to find some crack to squeeze through is not operating in good-faith within the WG or the IETF. Please let me know if there's anything else I need to restate to make clear. Again. Thanks, Greg > There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great us= e > of IPv6 with bier. This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. > Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG? > > mike > > > > > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they > have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and > have been proven by implementation and test. > > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted > BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network. > > > > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would > like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step: > > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER > architecture. > > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does no= t > comply with BIER architecture. > > > > Thank you very much for your help. > > > > Jingrong > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin > > Vigoureux > > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM > > To: bier@ietf.org > > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints > > > > WG > > > > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken. > > > > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, > and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier > mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6. > > > > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wil= l > make a general statement. > > > > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in > the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen > sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some > points are more problematic than others. > > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a > variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with = a > particular one. > > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in > itself, a concern. > > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some > occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trus= t > they will pay attention to that in the future. > > > > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way > this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoptio= n > poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice= , > and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have > little arguments to go back on this. > > > > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions > regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific > document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time afte= r > this e-mail. > > > > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open > discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes = on > the way forward. > > > > > > Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BIER mailing list > > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= . > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fu= t > > urewei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a > > 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj > > oiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&am > > p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&reserv= e > > d=3D0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40futurew= ei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222277027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi= LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DdcV1PufJO= I0NEKjONjsDIKK3Ib7%2BBF7xiHasDrnGTQs%3D&reserved=3D0 > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --00000000000031ff8205c5e81d9e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,

Sorry for respon= ding so quickly without taking the time to think this through, again. My po= sition on this draft is no secret, but let me clarify:
Inline GS:=

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride <mmcbride@futurewei.com> wrote:
Howdy,

Le 2021-06-11 =C3=A0 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Dear Martin,
>
> We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think= it reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
>>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, = which is L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
>>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, = which should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal inter= pretation.

>it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and r= each consensus on.

My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply unnec= essary, not that it violates the bier architecture.=C2=A0
=
GS - My position=C2=A0from the beginning is that it violates= the BIER architecture. I have been clear about this since rev 0. But, I ha= ve also said that IF there was some compelling benefit from the proposal th= at it should be considered. But it doesn't offer anything over standard= encapsulation. So, 'yes', it violates the BIER architecture, and &= #39;yes' it is unnecessary in that it doesn't provide any value ove= r standard encapsulation.

It is also my position= =C2=A0that re-asking the same question in hopes to find some crack to squee= ze through is not operating in good-faith within the WG or the IETF.
<= div>
Please let me know if there's anything else I need t= o restate to make clear. Again.

Thanks,
= Greg
=C2=A0
There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use = of IPv6 with bier. This was presented in 6man with positive feedback. Perha= ps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG?

mike

>
> For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think the= y have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and h= ave been proven by implementation and test.
> Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted B= IER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network.
>
> We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would l= ike to propose two options about what should be done in the next step:
> 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER a= rchitecture.
> 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does n= ot comply with BIER architecture.
>
> Thank you very much for your help.
>
> Jingrong
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Vigoureux
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> To: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints
>
> WG
>
> First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.
>
> I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March, = and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier mai= ling list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.
>
> I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I wi= ll make a general statement.
>
> It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in = the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen someti= mes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some points = are more problematic than others.
> Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a vari= ety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a part= icular one.
> It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in itse= lf, a concern.
> I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some occasio= ns, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust they wi= ll pay attention to that in the future.
>
> About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way = this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adopt= ion poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practi= ce, and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I ha= ve little arguments to go back on this.
>
> The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution. > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussion= s regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific doc= ument which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after thi= s e-mail.
>
> Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open d= iscussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on = the way forward.
>
>
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> BIER mailing list
> BIER@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.= protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fbier&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Cmmcbride%40fut=
> ure= wei.com%7C251aa4cc378a4f70fee008d92f2c3757%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a
> 1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637592689222267034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj=
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> p;sdata=3Dng78EEFJ0jNyOSdkvfv4Ic6xB3%2FpZkfY66Q%2BWdGZfIk%3D&amp;r= eserve
> d=3D0
>

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boundary="_000_BYAPR11MB2725275C570656C5421D73E9DF029BYAPR11MB2725namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR11MB2725.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 171f12f0-1d60-4b94-2568-08d93b317331 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Jun 2021 19:09:42.0893 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 6lpETfpiBtABC2WAKmnfONVUlmD7mGqoxQKDu243APbifdmwQm2D1T+HdYdvGqfUkdmI/WpuGYqMkvJk8R9v6g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR11MB4782 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.21, xbe-rcd-006.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 19:11:04 -0000 --_000_BYAPR11MB2725275C570656C5421D73E9DF029BYAPR11MB2725namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can help too. From: BIER on behalf of Greg Shepherd Date: Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 6:05 AM To: BIER WG Subject: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER to = where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The following = bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to the= list: =95 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 =95 Alia Atlas: =93IANA code-points don=92t change. This is the reason why= BIER began as experimental - narrow point in hourglass=94 =95 The encoding at the =93narrow point of the hourglass=94 =96 the forward= ing plane =96 is the foundation from which the rest of the architecture grows. =95 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of th= e original WG Experimental Charter. =95 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those involved i= n the WG from the beginning. But it is also a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the Intern= et and was erroneously assumed as well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to up= date the BIER architecture to make this responsibility clear for all future contributors. RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since been= made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance of the= forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understood by = the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, = the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and ev= en before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at th= e forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation mechanisms = can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core tenet of a l= ayered and scalable architecture of the Internet. If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. Thanks, Greg (Chairs) --_000_BYAPR11MB2725275C570656C5421D73E9DF029BYAPR11MB2725namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I can help too.

 

From: BIER <bier-bounc= es@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 6:05 AM
To: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Subject: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC

A big "thank you" to all WG members who ha= ve worked so hard to get BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our= work is not done. The following bullet points are from the Chairs' technic= al summary previously sent to the list: 

 

=95 BIER= encoding is specified in RFC8296

=95 Alia= Atlas: =93IANA code-points don=92t change.  This is the reason why BI= ER began as experimental - narrow

        point in hourglass=94

=95 The = encoding at the =93narrow point of the hourglass=94 =96 the forwarding plan= e =96  is the foundation from which 

        the rest of the architec= ture grows.

=95 This= was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the time of the origin= al WG Experimental Charter.

=95 This= is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those involved in the WG= from the beginning. But it is also 

        a core tenet of the laye= red and scalable architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed a= s 

        well-understood by the o= riginal WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to ma= ke this 

        responsibility clear for= all future contributors.

 

RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of th= e WG. It has since been made clear that the authors at that time had assume= d the importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture = was well understood by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, the draft of = RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the= assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype.

 

This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to b= etter define BIER at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard en= capsulation mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preservin= g the core tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet.

 

If you would like to tackle this update, please repl= y to this thread.

 

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

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Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-li-pce-based-bier-00.txt X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 02:33:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart807524307404_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgQklFUiBleHBlcnRzLA0KIA0KQXQgcHJlc2VudCwgIHRoZSBzaWduYWxpbmcgb2YgbXVsdGlj YXN0IGlzIG1haW5seSBkaXN0cmlidXRlZCBwcm9jZXNzaW5nIHZpYSBCR1AgbWVzc2FnZXMsIGFu ZCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBjZW50cmFsaXplZCBwcm9jZXNzaW5nIHNvbHV0aW9uLg0KV2Ugc3VibWl0 IGEgZHJhZnQgb2YgdW5pZmllZCBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IG9mIEJJRVIgbXVsdGljYXN0IHNpZ25hbGlu ZyBieSBjb250cm9sbGVyIHZpYSBQQ0VQIG1lc3NhZ2VzLCB3aGljaCBjYW4gY29tYmluZSB0aGUg Y2hhcmFjdGVyaXN0aWNzIG9mIEJJRVIgYW5kIGltcHJvdmUgdGhlIGVmZmljaWVuY3kgb2YgaW50 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Hi BIER ex= perts,
 
At present,  the&nb= sp;signaling of multicast is mainly distributed&n= bsp;processing via BGP messages, and there = is no centralized processing solution.
We submit a draft of unified management&nbs= p;of BIER multicast signaling by controller via&n= bsp;PCEP messages, which can combine the&nb= sp;characteristics of BIER and improve the effici= ency of interaction, as follows:
Regi= stration of a multicast source to controller(PCE)= .
Report of joining/leaving message to controller(PCE).=
Controller(PCE) sends BitStrings indicating = ;the forwarding of packets in BIER network.
    
Any comments are welcome. 

=0A
Best = Regards.

Huanan Li
China T= elecom
=0A
 
Date: 2021-06-29=  14:07
To: Aijun Wang; Huaimo= Chen; Huaimo Chen; <= a href=3D"mailto:lihn6@foxmail.com">Huanan Li; Ran Chen
Subject: New Version No= tification for draft-li-pce-based-bier-00.txt
&= nbsp;
=0A
A new version of I-D, draft-li-pce-based-bier-00.txt=0A
has been successfully submitted by Huanan Li and posted to the<= /div>=0A
IETF repository.
=0A
 
=0A
Name: draf= t-li-pce-based-bier
=0A
Revision: 00
=0A
Title: PCE bas= ed BIER Procedures and Protocol Extensions
=0A
Document date: 202= 1-06-29
=0A
Group: Individual Submission
=0A
Pages: 18=
=0A
URL:         &n= bsp;  https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-li-pce-based-bier-00.txt<= /div>=0A
Status:         https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-pce-based-bier/
=0A
Htmlized= :       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/htm= l/draft-li-pce-based-bier
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A=
Abstract:
=0A
   This document describes extension= s to Path Computation Element (PCE)
=0A
   communicatio= n Protocol (PCEP) for supporting the PCE based Bit Index
=0A
&nbs= p;  Explicit Replication (BIER) deployment.
=0A
 
= =0A
           =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;        
=0A
 =0A
 
=0A
The IETF Secretariat
=0A
 =0A
 
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=0A ------=_001_NextPart807524307404_=------ . From nobody Wed Jun 30 19:28:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638FC3A10B6; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 19:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.195 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.195 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d-Yw0j50mFgN; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 19:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9E503A10B3; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 19:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse-fl1.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.238]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 036C7B743133F7A9562A; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 10:28:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp03.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.202]) by mse-fl1.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 1612SlKX083172; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 10:28:47 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp02[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid203; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 10:28:46 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 10:28:46 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afa60dd285ea848ddb7 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202107011028465093653@zte.com.cn> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse-fl1.zte.com.cn 1612SlKX083172 Archived-At: Subject: [Bier] =?utf-8?q?BIER_WG_-_call_for_presentation_slot_in_=C2=A0I?= =?utf-8?q?ETF_111?= X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2021 02:28:57 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIA0KDQoNCkJJRVIgbWVldGluZyBmb3IgSUVURiAxMTEgaGFzIGJlZW4gc2NoZWR1bGVkOiBo dHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL21lZXRpbmcvMTExL2FnZW5kYS8NCg0KDQpJZiB5 b3Ugd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBwcmVzZW50IGF0IHRoZSBtZWV0aW5nLCBwbGVhc2Ugc2VuZCBhIHJl cXVlc3QgdG8gQklFUiBjaGFpcnMgYW5kIG1lIHdpdGggIlByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBkcmFmdCwgdGhl IGFtb3VudCBvZiB0aW1lLCBwcmVzZW50ZXIiLiANCg0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQoNCg0KU2FuZHkgKHNl Y3JldGFyeSk= --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/html ; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdiBjbGFzcz0iemNvbnRlbnRSb3ciPjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTRweDtmb250LWZh bWlseTphcmlhbDsiPkhpLCZuYnNwOzwvcD48cCBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjE0cHg7Zm9udC1m YW1pbHk6YXJpYWw7Ij5CSUVSIG1lZXRpbmcgZm9yIElFVEYgMTExIGhhcyBiZWVuIHNjaGVkdWxl ZDombmJzcDs8YSB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayIgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tZWV0aW5nLzExMS9hZ2VuZGEvIj5odHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL21l ZXRpbmcvMTExL2FnZW5kYS88L2E+PC9wPjxwIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTRweDtmb250LWZh bWlseTphcmlhbDsiPklmIHlvdSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRvIHByZXNlbnQgYXQgdGhlIG1lZXRpbmcs IHBsZWFzZSBzZW5kIGEgcmVxdWVzdCB0byBCSUVSIGNoYWlycyBhbmQgbWUgd2l0aCAiUHJlc2Vu dGF0aW9uIGRyYWZ0LCB0aGUgYW1vdW50IG9mIHRpbWUsIHByZXNlbnRlciIuJm5ic3A7PC9wPjxw IHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTRweDtmb250LWZhbWlseTphcmlhbDsiPlRoYW5rcyw8L3A+PHAg c3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxNHB4O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OmFyaWFsOyI+U2FuZHkgKHNlY3JldGFy eSk8L3A+PC9kaXY+ --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_002_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====--