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From: Trent Adams <tadams@proofpoint.com>
To: "bimi@ietf.org" <bimi@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client
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From: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>
To: Trent Adams <tadams=40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "bimi@ietf.org" <bimi@ietf.org>
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--00000000000072328305c8529352
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FairEmail will not rely on the BIMI-Location header because this requires
support from the email server. Instead, FairEmail will use the logo in the
VMC and fallback to the DNS record logo location if needed (logo missing in
the VMC, etc). The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon
(a double check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when
everything checks out.

I think it would be a good idea to summarize the steps to follow to
fetch/decode/check BIMI because I think it will make it easier for
developers to implement BIMI and to do this in the right way.

The BIMI TXT record is always being fetched from the top level domain (
example.org). I hope this is correct.

An IMAP flag would be nice, but I guess it will take quite some time until
all email servers are supporting this. Something like a signed
authentication results header would be nice, as long as it can be checked
in a simple and efficient way. For example heavy cryptographic operations
and looking up DNS records (for certificates, etc) would result in slow
downs and increased battery usage when downloading many messages.

Currently, the authentication header inserted by the email server is just
being trusted, but this relies on either inserting the header by the
receiving email server or removing previous headers of intermediate email
servers.

FairEmail will cache the logo for two weeks, which is the same as for
favicons. IMHO this is a reasonable default, preventing logos from being
fetched too often and still allowing to change the logo by the sender
(which I guess won't happen too often).

I hope this clarifies things, else feel free to reply.

Marcel Bokhorst (author of FairEmail)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>
To: Trent Adams <tadams=3D40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "bimi@ietf.org"=
 <
bimi@ietf.org>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:45:04 +0000
Subject: Re: [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client

I do have that app, but I haven=E2=80=99t yet pointed it at a platform util=
izing
BIMI.  I=E2=80=99ll make a note to give it a try.



>From below:



   - They aren't entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo
   referenced by the BIMI record and the one retrieved from a VMC.



What about the BIMI-Location header instance, if present? (assuming you
want to trust that header, etc).  After that, I=E2=80=99d probably use the =
VMC if
present.  Should we add an evaluation path to the core document?



   - It's also not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo when the
   email is sent from a subdomain, and match that up with the DMARC results=
.



I=E2=80=99m not sure I follow the issue here.  Is there some example that s=
hows the
questionable path?



   - There's also the question about whether or not an independent client
   can/should trust the authentication results performed by the mailbox
   provider when deciding to display the BIMI logo.



If you go back to -00 of the core spec, there was an IMAP flag that was
meant to be set (Section 8.6).  That was removed in -01.  I don=E2=80=99t r=
ecall
the justification, but may have had to do with MUA workload.  Seems like
the IMAP flag could be reintroduced (POP3 would be an issue though).  Or
perhaps something akin to a DKIM signature signed by the inbound MTA that
could be verified by the MUA.  The latter could potentially be reused
though?



   - There is a non-zero addition of processing required by the client to
   handle BIMI, leading to the question about what impact this may have on =
a
   client... and what efficiencies can be introduced with local caching (if
   any).



I=E2=80=99d think at least equivalent to the TTL of the BIMI DNS record, pe=
rhaps
even up to the expiration of the VMC (though I could understand where a
domain holder could refresh their VMC and change logos, etc).  I=E2=80=99m =
sure
there=E2=80=99s a better answer somewhere in between.





--

Alex Brotman

Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy

Comcast



*From:* bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Trent Adams
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 5:36 PM
*To:* bimi@ietf.org
*Subject:* [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client





Since Gmail's announcement, more companies are starting to play around with
BIMI (no surprise there).  And, as expected, the increased attention is
helping to put more eyeballs on the experiment.



And while some of the major mailbox providers are adding BIMI support to
their own mobile clients, I ran into a FOSS project run by a developer in
the Netherlands who has already added BIMI to their independent mobile mail
client.



If you get a chance, I'd suggest taking a look at their FairEmail
implementation as they made some interesting choices:



https://email.faircode.eu/
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/email.faircode.eu/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJE=
N3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfdsADeC4$>



The current Android client package can be downloaded from their GitHub
repository:



https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases__;!!=
CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHf=
2gwnAj4$>





So far, they've already found some useful results from their experiment.
And now we're finally at a point where we can test the architecture (and
pressure-test the specifications) beyond the handful of usual suspects.



For example, here're a few issues this work as already surfaced when
interpreting the specifications [1] [2] [3]:



   - They aren't entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo
   referenced by the BIMI record and the one retrieved from a VMC.
   - It's also not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo when the
   email is sent from a subdomain, and match that up with the DMARC results=
.
   - There's also the question about whether or not an independent client
   can/should trust the authentication results performed by the mailbox
   provider when deciding to display the BIMI logo.
   - There is a non-zero addition of processing required by the client to
   handle BIMI, leading to the question about what impact this may have on =
a
   client... and what efficiencies can be introduced with local caching (if
   any).



What I found most interesting was how the specifications assume a tight
coupling between the client and the mailbox provider.  It definitely opens
the question of whether it's possible (or recommended) for an independent
client to support BIMI even for email received by mailbox providers that
don't support it.  It's real-world interop testing like this that I hope
will highlight issues that need to be discussed as the experiment continues=
.



Also, if anyone would be willing to test the FairEmail client, I'd be keen
to hear if you think that the way it leverages BIMI matches your
expectations.  Also, are there any others out there that might contribute
their learnings to the conversation?



Anyway, thanks for any feedback you may have.  It'll be useful to hash out
ideas for improvements and next steps on the list.



Cheers,

Trent



[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bla=
nk-ietf-bimi-02__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeX=
JEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfVUyABq4$>

[2]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fetch-validation-vmc-wchuang-00
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fet=
ch-validation-vmc-wchuang-00__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmO=
T5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfIMZn7Z8$>

[3]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bro=
tman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5=
S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfQyodXbk$>





--=20

*J. Trent Adams*

*Director, Ecosystem Security*

*Proofpoint*



tadams@proofpoint.com


bimi mailing list
bimi@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi

--00000000000072328305c8529352
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">FairEmail will=
 not rely on the BIMI-Location header because this requires support from th=
e email server. Instead, FairEmail will use the logo in the VMC and fallbac=
k to the DNS record logo location if needed (logo missing in the VMC, etc).=
 The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double chec=
k mark before the sender&#39;s name) will be shown only when everything che=
cks out.</span><br></div><br>I think it would be a good idea to summarize t=
he steps to follow to fetch/decode/check BIMI because I think it will make =
it easier for developers to implement BIMI and to do this in the right way.=
<br><br>The BIMI TXT record is always being fetched from the top level doma=
in (<a href=3D"http://example.org" target=3D"_blank">example.org</a>). I ho=
pe this is correct.<div><br></div><div>An IMAP flag would be nice, but I gu=
ess it will take quite some time until all email servers are supporting thi=
s. Something like a signed authentication results header would be nice, as =
long as it can be checked in a simple and efficient way. For example heavy =
cryptographic operations and looking up DNS records (for certificates, etc)=
 would result in slow downs and increased battery usage when downloading ma=
ny messages.<br><br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">Curr=
ently, the authentication header inserted by the email server is just being=
 trusted, but this relies on either inserting the header by the receiving e=
mail server or removing previous headers of intermediate email servers.</sp=
an><br><br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">FairEmail wil=
l cache the logo for two weeks, which is the same as for favicons. IMHO thi=
s is a reasonable default, preventing logos from being fetched too often an=
d still allowing to change the logo by the sender (which I guess won&#39;t =
happen too often).</span><br><br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:san=
s-serif">I hope this clarifies things, else feel free to reply.</span><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_attr">Marcel Bokhorst (author of FairEmail)</div><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"><br></div><br>---------- Forwarded message -=
---------<br>From:=C2=A0&quot;Brotman, Alex&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ale=
x_Brotman@comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Alex_Brotman@comcast.com</a>&gt;<b=
r>To:=C2=A0Trent Adams &lt;tadams=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40proofpoint.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quo=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org</a>&quot=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>Cc:=C2=A0<br>Bcc:=C2=A0<br>Date:=C2=A0Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:45:04 +000=
0<br>Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client<br>





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"word-wrap:b=
reak-word">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I do have that app,=
 but I haven=E2=80=99t yet pointed it at a platform utilizing BIMI.=C2=A0 I=
=E2=80=99ll make a note to give it a try.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">From below:<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li style=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">They aren&#3=
9;t entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo referenced by the BIM=
I record and the one retrieved from a VMC.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">What about the BIMI=
-Location header instance, if present? (assuming you want to trust that hea=
der, etc).=C2=A0 After that, I=E2=80=99d probably use the VMC if present.=
=C2=A0 Should we add an evaluation path to the core document?<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li style=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">It&#39;s als=
o not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo when the email is sent=
 from a subdomain, and match that up with the DMARC results.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I=E2=80=99m not sur=
e I follow the issue here.=C2=A0 Is there some example that shows the quest=
ionable path?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li style=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">There&#39;s =
also the question about whether or not an independent client can/should tru=
st the authentication results performed by the mailbox provider when
 deciding to display the BIMI logo.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">If you go back to -=
00 of the core spec, there was an IMAP flag that was meant to be set (Secti=
on 8.6).=C2=A0 That was removed in -01.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t recall the ju=
stification, but may have had to do with MUA workload.=C2=A0
 Seems like the IMAP flag could be reintroduced (POP3 would be an issue tho=
ugh).=C2=A0 Or perhaps something akin to a DKIM signature signed by the inb=
ound MTA that could be verified by the MUA.=C2=A0 The latter could potentia=
lly be reused though?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li style=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">There is a n=
on-zero addition of processing required by the client to handle BIMI, leadi=
ng to the question about what impact this may have on a client...
 and what efficiencies can be introduced with local caching (if any).<u></u=
><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I=E2=80=99d think a=
t least equivalent to the TTL of the BIMI DNS record, perhaps even up to th=
e expiration of the VMC (though I could understand where a domain holder co=
uld refresh their VMC and change logos, etc).=C2=A0
 I=E2=80=99m sure there=E2=80=99s a better answer somewhere in between.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">--<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Alex Brotman<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Sr. Engineer, Anti-=
Abuse &amp; Messaging Policy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Comcast<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> bimi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bimi-bounces@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Trent Adams<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 23, 2021 5:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Since Gmail&#39;s a=
nnouncement, more companies are starting to play around with BIMI (no surpr=
ise there).=C2=A0 And, as expected, the increased attention is helping to p=
ut more eyeballs on the experiment.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">And while some of t=
he major mailbox providers are adding BIMI support to their own mobile clie=
nts, I ran into a FOSS project run by a developer in the Netherlands who ha=
s already added BIMI to their independent
 mobile mail client.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">If you get a chance=
, I&#39;d suggest taking a look at their FairEmail implementation as they m=
ade some interesting choices:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.com/v3/__https:/email.faircode.eu/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-=
Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfdsADeC4$" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://email.faircode.eu/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">The current Android=
 client package can be downloaded from their GitHub repository:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><a href=3D"https://=
urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases__;!!CQl3mcHX2=
A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHf2gwnAj4$"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases</a><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">So far, they&#39;ve=
 already found some useful results from their experiment.=C2=A0 And now we&=
#39;re finally at a point where we can test the architecture (and pressure-=
test the specifications) beyond the handful of usual
 suspects.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">For example, here&#=
39;re a few issues this work as already surfaced when interpreting the spec=
ifications [1] [2] [3]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li style=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">They aren&#3=
9;t entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo referenced by the BIM=
I record and the one retrieved from a VMC.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">It&#39;s also not a=
ll that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo when the email is sent from a=
 subdomain, and match that up with the DMARC results.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/li><li style=3D"margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">There&#3=
9;s also the question about whether or not an independent client can/should=
 trust the authentication results performed by the mailbox provider when
 deciding to display the BIMI logo.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li style=3D"m=
argin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">There is a non-zero additi=
on of processing required by the client to handle BIMI, leading to the ques=
tion about what impact this may have on a client...
 and what efficiencies can be introduced with local caching (if any).<u></u=
><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">What I found most i=
nteresting was how the specifications assume a tight coupling between the c=
lient and the mailbox provider.=C2=A0 It definitely opens the question of w=
hether it&#39;s possible (or recommended) for
 an independent client to support BIMI even for email received by mailbox p=
roviders that don&#39;t support it.=C2=A0 It&#39;s real-world interop testi=
ng like this that I hope will highlight issues that need to be discussed as=
 the experiment continues.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Also, if anyone wou=
ld be willing to test the FairEmail client, I&#39;d be keen to hear if you =
think that the way it leverages BIMI matches your expectations.=C2=A0 Also,=
 are there any others out there that might contribute
 their learnings to the conversation?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Anyway, thanks for =
any feedback you may have.=C2=A0 It&#39;ll be useful to hash out ideas for =
improvements and next steps on the list.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Cheers,<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Trent<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">[1] <a href=3D"http=
s://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ie=
tf-bimi-02__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqr=
PRjGUg2a_oFLJHfVUyABq4$" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02</a><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">[2] <a href=3D"http=
s://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fetch-va=
lidation-vmc-wchuang-00__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-O=
CXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfIMZn7Z8$" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fetch-validation-vmc-wchuang-00=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">[3] <a href=3D"http=
s://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brotman-=
ietf-bimi-guidance-03__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCX=
jjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfQyodXbk$" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">--=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">J. Trent Adams<u=
></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Director, Ecosys=
tem Security<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#51788d">Pr=
oofpoint<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"mailto:t=
adams@proofpoint.com" target=3D"_blank">tadams@proofpoint.com</a><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

bimi mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi</a><br>
</div></div></div>

--00000000000072328305c8529352--


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From: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>
To: Marcel Bokhorst <marcel@faircode.eu>, "bimi@ietf.org" <bimi@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bimi/iFOoEzWL4ah7og6p0fgm34vacN0>
Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
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From: Marcel Bokhorst <marcel@faircode.eu>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 16:45:25 +0200
Message-ID: <CAFLkOerqLfm8rqcCDOkrS=9S3XV41exDSOMB_zndYaC6NKuGSw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>
Cc: "bimi@ietf.org" <bimi@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
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I understood that always "xfinity.com" should be checked and never
subdomains like "emails.xfinity.com". Am I wrong?

"*Everything checks out*" means:

   - The VMC could be downloaded from location referenced in the BIMI TXT
   record
   - The certificate chain up to a known CA certificate is valid
   - The certificate is of the right type (BIMI)
   - The DNS name of the certificate matches the domain name of the sender
   and of the BIMI DNS record
   - A logo is present and could be extracted from the certificate
   - The *Authentication-Results* header says "pass" for DKIM, SPF and DMAR=
C
   - The DMARC DNS record policy is "reject" or "quarantine"






Op vr 30 jul. 2021 om 15:19 schreef Brotman, Alex <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com
>:

>
>
> Consider =E2=80=9Cemails.xfinity.com=E2=80=9D.  We didn=E2=80=99t want BI=
MI on =E2=80=9Cxfinity.com=E2=80=9D, but
> just that sub-domain (for now).  There is no BIMI record at =E2=80=9Cxfin=
ity.com=E2=80=9D,
> though it does exist at =E2=80=9Cemails.xfinity.com=E2=80=9D.  I believe =
this is covered
> in the drafts.
>
>
>
> The flag could be nice, but again, that only covers IMAP.  What about POP
> (or MAPI) users?  The cryptographic solution may be more intensive, but
> seems like it may make BIMI more available (but yes, at the expense of
> mobile CPU).
>
>
>
> Could you elaborate on the =E2=80=9Ceverything checks out=E2=80=9D from y=
our section about
> evaluation?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Alex Brotman
>
> Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
>
> Comcast
>
>
>
> *From:* bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Marcel Bokhorst
> *Sent:* Friday, July 30, 2021 3:57 AM
> *To:* bimi@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
>
>
>
> FairEmail will not rely on the BIMI-Location header because this requires
> support from the email server. Instead, FairEmail will use the logo in th=
e
> VMC and fallback to the DNS record logo location if needed (logo missing =
in
> the VMC, etc). The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender ico=
n
> (a double check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when
> everything checks out.
>
>
> I think it would be a good idea to summarize the steps to follow to
> fetch/decode/check BIMI because I think it will make it easier for
> developers to implement BIMI and to do this in the right way.
>
> The BIMI TXT record is always being fetched from the top level domain (
> example.org
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/example.org__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!QOleDIsQOkj=
N3HXlKrItrq62gf5-G3hak8l7aDR3RAX6gQqWqTVXcLfIwcPA3DMVHSX2WGk$>).
> I hope this is correct.
>
>
>
> An IMAP flag would be nice, but I guess it will take quite some time unti=
l
> all email servers are supporting this. Something like a signed
> authentication results header would be nice, as long as it can be checked
> in a simple and efficient way. For example heavy cryptographic operations
> and looking up DNS records (for certificates, etc) would result in slow
> downs and increased battery usage when downloading many messages.
>
> Currently, the authentication header inserted by the email server is just
> being trusted, but this relies on either inserting the header by the
> receiving email server or removing previous headers of intermediate email
> servers.
>
> FairEmail will cache the logo for two weeks, which is the same as for
> favicons. IMHO this is a reasonable default, preventing logos from being
> fetched too often and still allowing to change the logo by the sender
> (which I guess won't happen too often).
>
> I hope this clarifies things, else feel free to reply.
>
>
>
> Marcel Bokhorst (author of FairEmail)
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>
> To: Trent Adams <tadams=3D40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "bimi@ietf.or=
g"
> <bimi@ietf.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:45:04 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client
>
> I do have that app, but I haven=E2=80=99t yet pointed it at a platform ut=
ilizing
> BIMI.  I=E2=80=99ll make a note to give it a try.
>
>
>
> From below:
>
>
>
>    - They aren't entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo
>    referenced by the BIMI record and the one retrieved from a VMC.
>
>
>
> What about the BIMI-Location header instance, if present? (assuming you
> want to trust that header, etc).  After that, I=E2=80=99d probably use th=
e VMC if
> present.  Should we add an evaluation path to the core document?
>
>
>
>    - It's also not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo when
>    the email is sent from a subdomain, and match that up with the DMARC
>    results.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure I follow the issue here.  Is there some example that=
 shows
> the questionable path?
>
>
>
>    - There's also the question about whether or not an independent client
>    can/should trust the authentication results performed by the mailbox
>    provider when deciding to display the BIMI logo.
>
>
>
> If you go back to -00 of the core spec, there was an IMAP flag that was
> meant to be set (Section 8.6).  That was removed in -01.  I don=E2=80=99t=
 recall
> the justification, but may have had to do with MUA workload.  Seems like
> the IMAP flag could be reintroduced (POP3 would be an issue though).  Or
> perhaps something akin to a DKIM signature signed by the inbound MTA that
> could be verified by the MUA.  The latter could potentially be reused
> though?
>
>
>
>    - There is a non-zero addition of processing required by the client to
>    handle BIMI, leading to the question about what impact this may have o=
n a
>    client... and what efficiencies can be introduced with local caching (=
if
>    any).
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99d think at least equivalent to the TTL of the BIMI DNS record, =
perhaps
> even up to the expiration of the VMC (though I could understand where a
> domain holder could refresh their VMC and change logos, etc).  I=E2=80=99=
m sure
> there=E2=80=99s a better answer somewhere in between.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Alex Brotman
>
> Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
>
> Comcast
>
>
>
> *From:* bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Trent Adams
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 5:36 PM
> *To:* bimi@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client
>
>
>
>
>
> Since Gmail's announcement, more companies are starting to play around
> with BIMI (no surprise there).  And, as expected, the increased attention
> is helping to put more eyeballs on the experiment.
>
>
>
> And while some of the major mailbox providers are adding BIMI support to
> their own mobile clients, I ran into a FOSS project run by a developer in
> the Netherlands who has already added BIMI to their independent mobile ma=
il
> client.
>
>
>
> If you get a chance, I'd suggest taking a look at their FairEmail
> implementation as they made some interesting choices:
>
>
>
> https://email.faircode.eu/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/email.faircode.eu/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUy=
JEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfdsADeC4$>
>
>
>
> The current Android client package can be downloaded from their GitHub
> repository:
>
>
>
> https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases__;=
!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJ=
Hf2gwnAj4$>
>
>
>
>
>
> So far, they've already found some useful results from their experiment.
> And now we're finally at a point where we can test the architecture (and
> pressure-test the specifications) beyond the handful of usual suspects.
>
>
>
> For example, here're a few issues this work as already surfaced when
> interpreting the specifications [1] [2] [3]:
>
>
>
>    - They aren't entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo
>    referenced by the BIMI record and the one retrieved from a VMC.
>    - It's also not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo when
>    the email is sent from a subdomain, and match that up with the DMARC
>    results.
>    - There's also the question about whether or not an independent client
>    can/should trust the authentication results performed by the mailbox
>    provider when deciding to display the BIMI logo.
>    - There is a non-zero addition of processing required by the client to
>    handle BIMI, leading to the question about what impact this may have o=
n a
>    client... and what efficiencies can be introduced with local caching (=
if
>    any).
>
>
>
> What I found most interesting was how the specifications assume a tight
> coupling between the client and the mailbox provider.  It definitely open=
s
> the question of whether it's possible (or recommended) for an independent
> client to support BIMI even for email received by mailbox providers that
> don't support it.  It's real-world interop testing like this that I hope
> will highlight issues that need to be discussed as the experiment continu=
es.
>
>
>
> Also, if anyone would be willing to test the FairEmail client, I'd be kee=
n
> to hear if you think that the way it leverages BIMI matches your
> expectations.  Also, are there any others out there that might contribute
> their learnings to the conversation?
>
>
>
> Anyway, thanks for any feedback you may have.  It'll be useful to hash ou=
t
> ideas for improvements and next steps on the list.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Trent
>
>
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-b=
lank-ietf-bimi-02__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRV=
eXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfVUyABq4$>
>
> [2]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fetch-validation-vmc-wchuang-=
00
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-f=
etch-validation-vmc-wchuang-00__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSS=
mOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfIMZn7Z8$>
>
> [3]
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-b=
rotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmO=
T5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfQyodXbk$>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *J. Trent Adams*
>
> *Director, Ecosystem Security*
>
> *Proofpoint*
>
>
>
> tadams@proofpoint.com
>
>
>
> bimi mailing list
> bimi@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi__;=
!!CQl3mcHX2A!QOleDIsQOkjN3HXlKrItrq62gf5-G3hak8l7aDR3RAX6gQqWqTVXcLfIwcPA3D=
MVB8lC6MU$>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>I understood that always &=
quot;<a href=3D"http://xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank">xfinity.com</a>&quot;=
 should be checked and never subdomains like &quot;<a href=3D"http://emails=
.xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank">emails.xfinity.com</a>&quot;. Am I wrong?</=
div><div><br></div><div>&quot;<i>Everything checks out</i>&quot; means:</di=
v><div><ul><li>The VMC could be downloaded from location referenced in the =
BIMI TXT record</li><li>The certificate chain up to a known CA certificate =
is valid</li><li>The certificate is of the right type (BIMI)</li><li>The DN=
S name of the certificate matches the domain name of the sender and of the =
BIMI DNS record</li><li>A logo is present and could be extracted from the c=
ertificate</li><li>The <i>Authentication-Results</i> header says &quot;pass=
&quot; for DKIM, SPF and DMARC</li><li>The DMARC DNS record policy is &quot=
;reject&quot; or &quot;quarantine&quot;</li></ul></div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Op vr 30 jul. 2021 om 15:19=
 schreef Brotman, Alex &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alex_Brotman@comcast.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Alex_Brotman@comcast.com</a>&gt;:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Consider =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://emails.xfinity.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">emails.xfinity.com</a>=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 We didn=E2=80=
=99t want BIMI on =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>xfinity.com</a>=E2=80=9D, but just that sub-domain (for now).=C2=A0 There =
is no BIMI record at =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://xfinity.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">xfinity.com</a>=E2=80=9D, though it does exist at =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"h=
ttp://emails.xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank">emails.xfinity.com</a>=E2=80=9D=
.=C2=A0 I believe this is covered in the drafts.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The flag could be nice, but again, that only covers =
IMAP.=C2=A0 What about POP (or MAPI) users?=C2=A0 The cryptographic solutio=
n may be more intensive, but seems like it may make BIMI more available (bu=
t yes, at the expense of mobile CPU).=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Could you elaborate on the =E2=80=9Ceverything check=
s out=E2=80=9D from your section about evaluation?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alex Brotman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse &amp; Messaging Policy<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comcast<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> bimi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bimi-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>
Marcel Bokhorst<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 30, 2021 3:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">FairEma=
il will not rely on the BIMI-Location header because this requires support =
from the email server. Instead, FairEmail will use the logo in the VMC and =
fallback to the DNS record logo location
 if needed (logo missing in the VMC, etc). The logo will always be shown, b=
ut the verified sender icon (a double check mark before the sender&#39;s na=
me) will be shown only when everything checks out.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I think it would be a good idea to summarize the steps to follow to fetch/d=
ecode/check BIMI because I think it will make it easier for developers to i=
mplement BIMI and to do this in the right way.<br>
<br>
The BIMI TXT record is always being fetched from the top level domain (<a h=
ref=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/example.org__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!QOleDIs=
QOkjN3HXlKrItrq62gf5-G3hak8l7aDR3RAX6gQqWqTVXcLfIwcPA3DMVHSX2WGk$" target=
=3D"_blank">example.org</a>). I hope this
 is correct.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An IMAP flag would be nice, but I guess it will take=
 quite some time until all email servers are supporting this. Something lik=
e a signed authentication results header would be nice, as long as it can b=
e checked in a simple and efficient
 way. For example heavy cryptographic operations and looking up DNS records=
 (for certificates, etc) would result in slow downs and increased battery u=
sage when downloading many messages.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Currently, the authentication =
header inserted by the email server is just being trusted, but this relies =
on either inserting the header by the receiving email server or removing pr=
evious headers of intermediate email
 servers.</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">FairEmail will cache the logo =
for two weeks, which is the same as for favicons. IMHO this is a reasonable=
 default, preventing logos from being fetched too often and still allowing =
to change the logo by the sender
 (which I guess won&#39;t happen too often).</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I hope this clarifies things, =
else feel free to reply.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marcel Bokhorst (author of FairEmail)<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From:=C2=A0&quot;Brotman, Alex&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alex_Brotman@com=
cast.com" target=3D"_blank">Alex_Brotman@comcast.com</a>&gt;<br>
To:=C2=A0Trent Adams &lt;tadams=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40proofpoint.com@dmarc.=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;=
<a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org</a>&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br>
Cc:=C2=A0<br>
Bcc:=C2=A0<br>
Date:=C2=A0Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:45:04 +0000<br>
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do have that app, but I haven=E2=80=99t yet pointe=
d it at a platform utilizing BIMI.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll make a note to give i=
t a try.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From below:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
They aren&#39;t entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo reference=
d by the BIMI record and the one retrieved from a VMC.<u></u><u></u></li></=
ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What about the BIMI-Location header instance, if pre=
sent? (assuming you want to trust that header, etc).=C2=A0 After that, I=E2=
=80=99d probably use the VMC if present.=C2=A0 Should we add an evaluation
 path to the core document?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
It&#39;s also not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo when the e=
mail is sent from a subdomain, and match that up with the DMARC results.<u>=
</u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure I follow the issue here.=C2=A0 =
Is there some example that shows the questionable path?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
There&#39;s also the question about whether or not an independent client ca=
n/should trust the authentication results performed by the mailbox provider=
 when deciding to display the BIMI logo.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you go back to -00 of the core spec, there was an=
 IMAP flag that was meant to be set (Section 8.6).=C2=A0 That was removed i=
n -01.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t recall the justification, but may have
 had to do with MUA workload.=C2=A0 Seems like the IMAP flag could be reint=
roduced (POP3 would be an issue though).=C2=A0 Or perhaps something akin to=
 a DKIM signature signed by the inbound MTA that could be verified by the M=
UA.=C2=A0 The latter could potentially be reused
 though?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
There is a non-zero addition of processing required by the client to handle=
 BIMI, leading to the question about what impact this may have on a client.=
.. and what efficiencies can be introduced with local caching (if any).<u><=
/u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99d think at least equivalent to the TTL of =
the BIMI DNS record, perhaps even up to the expiration of the VMC (though I=
 could understand where a domain holder could refresh their
 VMC and change logos, etc).=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m sure there=E2=80=99s a bette=
r answer somewhere in between.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alex Brotman<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse &amp; Messaging Policy<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comcast<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> bimi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bimi-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Trent Adams<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 23, 2021 5:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since Gmail&#39;s announcement, more companies are s=
tarting to play around with BIMI (no surprise there).=C2=A0 And, as expecte=
d, the increased attention is helping to put more eyeballs
 on the experiment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And while some of the major mailbox providers are ad=
ding BIMI support to their own mobile clients, I ran into a FOSS project ru=
n by a developer in the Netherlands who has already
 added BIMI to their independent mobile mail client.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you get a chance, I&#39;d suggest taking a look a=
t their FairEmail implementation as they made some interesting choices:<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/email.=
faircode.eu/__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEE=
qrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfdsADeC4$" target=3D"_blank">https://email.faircode.eu/</a>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The current Android client package can be downloaded=
 from their GitHub repository:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github=
.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmO=
T5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHf2gwnAj4$" target=3D"_blank">https://github=
.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So far, they&#39;ve already found some useful result=
s from their experiment.=C2=A0 And now we&#39;re finally at a point where w=
e can test the architecture (and pressure-test the specifications)
 beyond the handful of usual suspects.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example, here&#39;re a few issues this work as a=
lready surfaced when interpreting the specifications [1] [2] [3]:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
They aren&#39;t entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo reference=
d by the BIMI record and the one retrieved from a VMC.<u></u><u></u></li><l=
i class=3D"MsoNormal">
It&#39;s also not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo when the e=
mail is sent from a subdomain, and match that up with the DMARC results.<u>=
</u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
There&#39;s also the question about whether or not an independent client ca=
n/should trust the authentication results performed by the mailbox provider=
 when deciding to display the BIMI logo.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
There is a non-zero addition of processing required by the client to handle=
 BIMI, leading to the question about what impact this may have on a client.=
.. and what efficiencies can be introduced with local caching (if any).<u><=
/u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What I found most interesting was how the specificat=
ions assume a tight coupling between the client and the mailbox provider.=
=C2=A0 It definitely opens the question of whether it&#39;s possible
 (or recommended) for an independent client to support BIMI even for email =
received by mailbox providers that don&#39;t support it.=C2=A0 It&#39;s rea=
l-world interop testing like this that I hope will highlight issues that ne=
ed to be discussed as the experiment continues.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, if anyone would be willing to test the FairEma=
il client, I&#39;d be keen to hear if you think that the way it leverages B=
IMI matches your expectations.=C2=A0 Also, are there any others
 out there that might contribute their learnings to the conversation?<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Anyway, thanks for any feedback you may have.=C2=A0 =
It&#39;ll be useful to hash out ideas for improvements and next steps on th=
e list.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Trent<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1]
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html=
/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S=
-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfVUyABq4$" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02</a><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[2]
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html=
/draft-fetch-validation-vmc-wchuang-00__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqV=
oPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfIMZn7Z8$" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fetch-validation-vmc-wchuang-00=
</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[3]
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html=
/draft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoP=
DIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfQyodXbk$" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03</=
a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">J. Trent Adams</sp=
an></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Director, Ecosyste=
m Security</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:rgb(81,120,14=
1)">Proofpoint</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"><a href=3D"mailto:tad=
ams@proofpoint.com" target=3D"_blank">tadams@proofpoint.com</a></span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">bimi mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">bimi@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/bimi__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!QOleDIsQOkjN3HXlKrItrq62gf5-G3hak8l7aDR3RAX6gQqWqTVXcL=
fIwcPA3DMVB8lC6MU$" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/bimi</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000c0e4e005c8584611--


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On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 10:46 AM Marcel Bokhorst <marcel@faircode.eu> wrote:

>
> I understood that always "xfinity.com" should be checked and never
> subdomains like "emails.xfinity.com". Am I wrong?
>

Current rev of the spec says to start with the author domain, then look at
the org domain if there's no BIMI record at the author domain. It's
analogous to DMARC in that way.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02#section-7.2

-- 

*Todd Herr* | Technical Director, Standards and Ecosystem
*e:* todd.herr@valimail.com
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 10:46 AM Marcel Bokhorst &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:marcel@faircode.eu">marcel@faircode.eu</a>&gt; wrote:</span><br></div><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>I understood that a=
lways &quot;<a href=3D"http://xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank">xfinity.com</a=
>&quot; should be checked and never subdomains like &quot;<a href=3D"http:/=
/emails.xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank">emails.xfinity.com</a>&quot;. Am I w=
rong?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Current rev of the spec says to star=
t with the author domain, then look at the org domain if there&#39;s no BIM=
I record at the author domain. It&#39;s analogous to DMARC in that way.</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">=
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02#s=
ection-7.2">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02#=
section-7.2</a></div></div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_signature"><span><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.656;margin-top=
:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"></p><div style=3D"text-align:left"><span style=3D"v=
ertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:small;font-family:Ari=
al"><b>Todd Herr</b></span><span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap;font-size:small;font-family:Arial"> | Technical Director, Stand=
ards and Ecosystem</span></div><span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;white=
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get=3D"_blank">todd.herr@valimail.com</a> </span></div></span><span><div><s=
pan><b>m:</b></span><span> 703.220.4153</span><span></span></div><div style=
=3D"text-align:left"><img style=3D"width: 175px; height: 43px;" src=3D"http=
s://hosted-packages.s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/Valimail+Logo.png"></div></s=
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From: Marcel Bokhorst <marcel@faircode.eu>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:33:03 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
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I see, but I am not happy with a second DNS record lookup. This might cause
extra delays in showing logos, etc. Nevertheless, I have changed this as
described now:

https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/commit/b4a193473cbe8477584c4328b98af967fd059048



Op vr 30 jul. 2021 om 17:03 schreef Todd Herr <todd.herr@valimail.com>:

> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 10:46 AM Marcel Bokhorst <marcel@faircode.eu>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I understood that always "xfinity.com" should be checked and never
>> subdomains like "emails.xfinity.com". Am I wrong?
>>
>
> Current rev of the spec says to start with the author domain, then look at
> the org domain if there's no BIMI record at the author domain. It's
> analogous to DMARC in that way.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02#section-7.2
>
> --
>
> *Todd Herr* | Technical Director, Standards and Ecosystem
> *e:* todd.herr@valimail.com
> *m:* 703.220.4153
>
> This email and all data transmitted with it contains confidential and/or
> proprietary information intended solely for the use of individual(s)
> authorized to receive it. If you are not an intended and authorized
> recipient you are hereby notified of any use, disclosure, copying or
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> and may be unlawful. Please immediately notify the sender by replying to
> this email and then delete it from your system.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>I see, but I am not happy =
with a second DNS record lookup. This might cause extra delays in showing l=
ogos, etc. Nevertheless, I have changed this as described now:</div><div><b=
r></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/commit/b4a193473c=
be8477584c4328b98af967fd059048">https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/commit/b4=
a193473cbe8477584c4328b98af967fd059048</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">Op vr 30 jul. 2021 om 17:03 schreef Todd Herr &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:todd.herr@valimail.com">todd.herr@valimail.com</a>&gt;:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 10:46 AM Marcel Bokhor=
st &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marcel@faircode.eu" target=3D"_blank">marcel@fairc=
ode.eu</a>&gt; wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><br></div><div>I understood that always &quot;<a href=3D"http://xfinit=
y.com" target=3D"_blank">xfinity.com</a>&quot; should be checked and never =
subdomains like &quot;<a href=3D"http://emails.xfinity.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">emails.xfinity.com</a>&quot;. Am I wrong?</div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Current rev of the sp=
ec says to start with the author domain, then look at the org domain if the=
re&#39;s no BIMI record at the author domain. It&#39;s analogous to DMARC i=
n that way.</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><di=
v style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02#section-7.2" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02#section-7.2</a>=
</div></div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><p dir=3D"ltr" sty=
le=3D"line-height:1.656;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"></p><div style=3D=
"text-align:left"><span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wr=
ap;font-size:small;font-family:Arial"><b>Todd Herr</b></span><span style=3D=
"vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:small;font-family:A=
rial"> | Technical Director, Standards and Ecosystem</span></div><span styl=
e=3D"vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:small;font-fami=
ly:Arial"><div style=3D"text-align:left"><span style=3D"vertical-align:base=
line"><b>e:</b></span><span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline"> <a href=3D"m=
ailto:todd.herr@valimail.com" target=3D"_blank">todd.herr@valimail.com</a> =
</span></div></span><span><div><span><b>m:</b></span><span> 703.220.4153</s=
pan><span></span></div><div style=3D"text-align:left"><img style=3D"width: =
175px; height: 43px;"></div></span><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"background-color=
:rgb(255,255,255);line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font =
face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#666666"><span style=3D"font-size:10.6667px;white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">This email and all data transmitted with it contains confide=
ntial and/or proprietary information intended solely for the use of individ=
ual(s) authorized to receive it. If you are not an intended and authorized =
recipient you are hereby notified of any use, disclosure, copying or distri=
bution of the information included in this transmission is prohibited and m=
ay be unlawful. Please immediately notify the sender by replying to this em=
ail and then delete it from your system.</span></font></p></span></div></di=
v>
</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000003e00a05c858f1fb--


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From: Jakub Olexa <jakub@mailkit.com>
Organization: Mailkit
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Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------AB4AD04E6D6D3A9386CF1402
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Hi Marcel,

i'm missing the check for the SVG logo. Do you intend to fully rely on=20
VMC itself? I believe I have raised this topic before but if not - not=20
checking that the SVG stored in VMC matches the logo in l=3D brings=20
potential risks and most imporantly allows for misaligned logos across=20
services. Allowing brands to create BIMI records that would return=20
different logos in l=3D and a=3D could result in bad user experience and =

even VMC abuse. fetching the l=3D logo should not be an option but=20
mandatory and the draft is clear on the fact that it's required. At=20
least that's how I read the assertion discovery part and I believe that=20
it makes no sense to permit different logo in l=3D and a=3D and not check=
ing=20
for the alignment of the 2 logos could lead to abuse.

If the retrieved Assertion Record does not include a valid bimi-
        location in the l=3D tag, then Indicator Discovery has failed, an=
d
        the Indicator MUST NOT be displayed.  The bimi-location entry
        MUST be a URI with a HTTPS transport.

Jakub Olexa
Founder & CEO
E-mail: jakub@mailkit.com <mailto:jakub@mailkit.com>
Tel: +420 777 744 440 <tel:+420777744440>

Mailkit - Closing the circle between Deliverability and Engagement=20
<https://www.mailkit.com>

On 30.07.2021 16:45, Marcel Bokhorst wrote:
>
> I understood that always "xfinity.com <http://xfinity.com>" should be=20
> checked and never subdomains like "emails.xfinity.com=20
> <http://emails.xfinity.com>". Am I wrong?
>
> "/Everything checks out/" means:
>
>   * The VMC could be downloaded from location referenced in the BIMI
>     TXT record
>   * The certificate chain up to a known CA certificate is valid
>   * The certificate is of the right type (BIMI)
>   * The DNS name of the certificate matches the domain name of the
>     sender and of the BIMI DNS record
>   * A logo is present and could be extracted from the certificate
>   * The /Authentication-Results/ header says "pass" for DKIM, SPF and
>     DMARC
>   * The DMARC DNS record policy is "reject" or "quarantine"
>
>
>
>
>
> Op vr 30 jul. 2021 om 15:19 schreef Brotman, Alex=20
> <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com <mailto:Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>>:
>
>     Consider =E2=80=9Cemails.xfinity.com <http://emails.xfinity.com>=E2=
=80=9D.=C2=A0 We
>     didn=E2=80=99t want BIMI on =E2=80=9Cxfinity.com <http://xfinity.co=
m>=E2=80=9D, but just
>     that sub-domain (for now).=C2=A0 There is no BIMI record at
>     =E2=80=9Cxfinity.com <http://xfinity.com>=E2=80=9D, though it does =
exist at
>     =E2=80=9Cemails.xfinity.com <http://emails.xfinity.com>=E2=80=9D.=C2=
=A0 I believe this
>     is covered in the drafts.
>
>     The flag could be nice, but again, that only covers IMAP.=C2=A0 Wha=
t
>     about POP (or MAPI) users?=C2=A0 The cryptographic solution may be =
more
>     intensive, but seems like it may make BIMI more available (but
>     yes, at the expense of mobile CPU).
>
>     Could you elaborate on the =E2=80=9Ceverything checks out=E2=80=9D =
from your
>     section about evaluation?
>
>     --
>
>     Alex Brotman
>
>     Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
>
>     Comcast
>
>     *From:* bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:bimi-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of * Marcel Bokhorst
>     *Sent:* Friday, July 30, 2021 3:57 AM
>     *To:* bimi@ietf.org <mailto:bimi@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
>
>     FairEmail will not rely on the BIMI-Location header because this
>     requires support from the email server. Instead, FairEmail will
>     use the logo in the VMC and fallback to the DNS record logo
>     location if needed (logo missing in the VMC, etc). The logo will
>     always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double check mark
>     before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything
>     checks out.
>
>
>     I think it would be a good idea to summarize the steps to follow
>     to fetch/decode/check BIMI because I think it will make it easier
>     for developers to implement BIMI and to do this in the right way.
>
>     The BIMI TXT record is always being fetched from the top level
>     domain (example.org
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/example.org__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!QOleD=
IsQOkjN3HXlKrItrq62gf5-G3hak8l7aDR3RAX6gQqWqTVXcLfIwcPA3DMVHSX2WGk$>).
>     I hope this is correct.
>
>     An IMAP flag would be nice, but I guess it will take quite some
>     time until all email servers are supporting this. Something like a
>     signed authentication results header would be nice, as long as it
>     can be checked in a simple and efficient way. For example heavy
>     cryptographic operations and looking up DNS records (for
>     certificates, etc) would result in slow downs and increased
>     battery usage when downloading many messages.
>
>     Currently, the authentication header inserted by the email server
>     is just being trusted, but this relies on either inserting the
>     header by the receiving email server or removing previous headers
>     of intermediate email servers.
>
>     FairEmail will cache the logo for two weeks, which is the same as
>     for favicons. IMHO this is a reasonable default, preventing logos
>     from being fetched too often and still allowing to change the logo
>     by the sender (which I guess won't happen too often).
>
>     I hope this clarifies things, else feel free to reply.
>
>     Marcel Bokhorst (author of FairEmail)
>
>
>     ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>     From:=C2=A0"Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com
>     <mailto:Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>>
>     To:=C2=A0Trent Adams <tadams=3D40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>, "bimi@ietf.org
>     <mailto:bimi@ietf.org>" <bimi@ietf.org <mailto:bimi@ietf.org>>
>     Cc:
>     Bcc:
>     Date:=C2=A0Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:45:04 +0000
>     Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client
>
>     I do have that app, but I haven=E2=80=99t yet pointed it at a platf=
orm
>     utilizing BIMI.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll make a note to give it a try.
>
>     From below:
>
>       * They aren't entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo
>         referenced by the BIMI record and the one retrieved from a VMC.=

>
>     What about the BIMI-Location header instance, if present?
>     (assuming you want to trust that header, etc).=C2=A0 After that, I=E2=
=80=99d
>     probably use the VMC if present.=C2=A0 Should we add an evaluation =
path
>     to the core document?
>
>       * It's also not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo
>         when the email is sent from a subdomain, and match that up
>         with the DMARC results.
>
>     I=E2=80=99m not sure I follow the issue here.=C2=A0 Is there some e=
xample that
>     shows the questionable path?
>
>       * There's also the question about whether or not an independent
>         client can/should trust the authentication results performed
>         by the mailbox provider when deciding to display the BIMI logo.=

>
>     If you go back to -00 of the core spec, there was an IMAP flag
>     that was meant to be set (Section 8.6). That was removed in -01.=C2=
=A0
>     I don=E2=80=99t recall the justification, but may have had to do wi=
th MUA
>     workload.=C2=A0 Seems like the IMAP flag could be reintroduced (POP=
3
>     would be an issue though).=C2=A0 Or perhaps something akin to a DKI=
M
>     signature signed by the inbound MTA that could be verified by the
>     MUA.=C2=A0 The latter could potentially be reused though?
>
>       * There is a non-zero addition of processing required by the
>         client to handle BIMI, leading to the question about what
>         impact this may have on a client... and what efficiencies can
>         be introduced with local caching (if any).
>
>     I=E2=80=99d think at least equivalent to the TTL of the BIMI DNS re=
cord,
>     perhaps even up to the expiration of the VMC (though I could
>     understand where a domain holder could refresh their VMC and
>     change logos, etc).=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m sure there=E2=80=99s a better=
 answer somewhere in
>     between.
>
>     --
>
>     Alex Brotman
>
>     Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
>
>     Comcast
>
>     *From:* bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:bimi-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *Trent Adams
>     *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 5:36 PM
>     *To:* bimi@ietf.org <mailto:bimi@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capable Email Client
>
>     Since Gmail's announcement, more companies are starting to play
>     around with BIMI (no surprise there).=C2=A0 And, as expected, the
>     increased attention is helping to put more eyeballs on the experime=
nt.
>
>     And while some of the major mailbox providers are adding BIMI
>     support to their own mobile clients, I ran into a FOSS project run
>     by a developer in the Netherlands who has already added BIMI to
>     their independent mobile mail client.
>
>     If you get a chance, I'd suggest taking a look at their FairEmail
>     implementation as they made some interesting choices:
>
>     https://email.faircode.eu/
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/email.faircode.eu/__;!!CQl3mcHX=
2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfdsADeC=
4$>
>
>     The current Android client package can be downloaded from their
>     GitHub repository:
>
>     https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/M66B/FairEmail/relea=
ses__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGU=
g2a_oFLJHf2gwnAj4$>
>
>     So far, they've already found some useful results from their
>     experiment.=C2=A0 And now we're finally at a point where we can tes=
t
>     the architecture (and pressure-test the specifications) beyond the
>     handful of usual suspects.
>
>     For example, here're a few issues this work as already surfaced
>     when interpreting the specifications [1] [2] [3]:
>
>       * They aren't entirely clear on how (or why) to evaluate a logo
>         referenced by the BIMI record and the one retrieved from a VMC.=

>       * It's also not all that clear where to retrieve the BIMI logo
>         when the email is sent from a subdomain, and match that up
>         with the DMARC results.
>       * There's also the question about whether or not an independent
>         client can/should trust the authentication results performed
>         by the mailbox provider when deciding to display the BIMI logo.=

>       * There is a non-zero addition of processing required by the
>         client to handle BIMI, leading to the question about what
>         impact this may have on a client... and what efficiencies can
>         be introduced with local caching (if any).
>
>     What I found most interesting was how the specifications assume a
>     tight coupling between the client and the mailbox provider.=C2=A0 I=
t
>     definitely opens the question of whether it's possible (or
>     recommended) for an independent client to support BIMI even for
>     email received by mailbox providers that don't support it.=C2=A0 It=
's
>     real-world interop testing like this that I hope will highlight
>     issues that need to be discussed as the experiment continues.
>
>     Also, if anyone would be willing to test the FairEmail client, I'd
>     be keen to hear if you think that the way it leverages BIMI
>     matches your expectations.=C2=A0 Also, are there any others out the=
re
>     that might contribute their learnings to the conversation?
>
>     Anyway, thanks for any feedback you may have.=C2=A0 It'll be useful=
 to
>     hash out ideas for improvements and next steps on the list.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Trent
>
>     [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d=
raft-blank-ietf-bimi-02__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S=
-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfVUyABq4$>
>
>     [2]
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fetch-validation-vmc-wc=
huang-00
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d=
raft-fetch-validation-vmc-wchuang-00__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqV=
oPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfIMZn7Z8$>
>
>     [3]
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guida=
nce-03
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d=
raft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoP=
DIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfQyodXbk$>
>
>     --=20
>
>     *J. Trent Adams*
>
>     /Director, Ecosystem Security/
>
>     *Proofpoint*
>
>     tadams@proofpoint.com <mailto:tadams@proofpoint.com>
>
>     bimi mailing list
>     bimi@ietf.org <mailto:bimi@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/b=
imi__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!QOleDIsQOkjN3HXlKrItrq62gf5-G3hak8l7aDR3RAX6gQqWqTVXcL=
fIwcPA3DMVB8lC6MU$>
>
>

--------------AB4AD04E6D6D3A9386CF1402
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>Hi Marcel,</p>
    <p>i'm missing the check for the SVG logo. Do you intend to fully
      rely on VMC itself? I believe I have raised this topic before but
      if not - not checking that the SVG stored in VMC matches the logo
      in l=3D brings potential risks and most imporantly allows for
      misaligned logos across services. Allowing brands to create BIMI
      records that would return different logos in l=3D and a=3D could
      result in bad user experience and even VMC abuse. fetching the l=3D=

      logo should not be an option but mandatory and the draft is clear
      on the fact that it's required. At least that's how I read the
      assertion discovery part and I believe that it makes no sense to
      permit different logo in l=3D and a=3D and not checking for the
      alignment of the 2 logos could lead to abuse.<br>
    </p>
    <pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px=
; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style=
: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font=
-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text=
-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decorat=
ion-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">If the retrieved Ass=
ertion Record does not include a valid bimi-
       location in the l=3D tag, then Indicator Discovery has failed, and=

       the Indicator MUST NOT be displayed.  The bimi-location entry
       MUST be a URI with a HTTPS transport.</pre>
    <div class=3D"moz-signature">
      <p style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Tahoma, Geneva,
        sans-serif;font-weight:bold; color: #000000;font-size:13pt">
        <span style=3D"letter-spacing:2px;">Jakub Olexa</span><br>
        <span style=3D"font-size:10pt; font-weight:normal;color:#666666">=
Founder
          &amp; CEO</span><br>
        <span style=3D"font-size:10pt; font-weight:normal;color:#666666">=
E-mail:
          <a href=3D"mailto:jakub@mailkit.com" style=3D"text-decoration:n=
one
            !important; color:#000000 !important" target=3D"_blank">jakub=
@mailkit.com</a></span><br>
        <span style=3D"font-size:10pt; font-weight:normal;color:#666666">=
Tel:
          <a href=3D"tel:+420777744440" style=3D"text-decoration:none
            !important; color:#000000 !important" target=3D"_blank">+420
            777 744 440</a></span>
        <br>
        <br>
        <a style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-weight:bold; color: #000000
          !important; text-decoration:none !important"
          href=3D"https://www.mailkit.com" target=3D"_blank">Mailkit - <s=
pan
            style=3D"font-size:10pt; font-weight:normal; color:#9a0307
            !important;">Closing the circle between Deliverability and
            Engagement</span></a>
      </p>
    </div>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 30.07.2021 16:45, Marcel Bokhorst
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"
cite=3D"mid:CAFLkOerqLfm8rqcCDOkrS=3D9S3XV41exDSOMB_zndYaC6NKuGSw@mail.gm=
ail.com">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DU=
TF-8">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        </div>
        <div>I understood that always "<a href=3D"http://xfinity.com"
            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">xfinity.com</a>"
          should be checked and never subdomains like "<a
            href=3D"http://emails.xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">emails.xfinity.com</a>". Am I wrong?=
</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>"<i>Everything checks out</i>" means:</div>
        <div>
          <ul>
            <li>The VMC could be downloaded from location referenced in
              the BIMI TXT record</li>
            <li>The certificate chain up to a known CA certificate is
              valid</li>
            <li>The certificate is of the right type (BIMI)</li>
            <li>The DNS name of the certificate matches the domain name
              of the sender and of the BIMI DNS record</li>
            <li>A logo is present and could be extracted from the
              certificate</li>
            <li>The <i>Authentication-Results</i> header says "pass"
              for DKIM, SPF and DMARC</li>
            <li>The DMARC DNS record policy is "reject" or "quarantine"</=
li>
          </ul>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>=C2=A0</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
          <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Op vr 30 jul. 2021 om 15:=
19
            schreef Brotman, Alex &lt;<a
              href=3D"mailto:Alex_Brotman@comcast.com" target=3D"_blank"
              moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Alex_Brotman@comcast.com</a>&gt;:<=
br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div lang=3D"EN-US">
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Consider =E2=80=9C<a
                    href=3D"http://emails.xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank"
                    moz-do-not-send=3D"true">emails.xfinity.com</a>=E2=80=
=9D.=C2=A0 We
                  didn=E2=80=99t want BIMI on =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://=
xfinity.com"
                    target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">xfinity.co=
m</a>=E2=80=9D,
                  but just that sub-domain (for now).=C2=A0 There is no B=
IMI
                  record at =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://xfinity.com"
                    target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">xfinity.co=
m</a>=E2=80=9D,
                  though it does exist at =E2=80=9C<a
                    href=3D"http://emails.xfinity.com" target=3D"_blank"
                    moz-do-not-send=3D"true">emails.xfinity.com</a>=E2=80=
=9D.=C2=A0 I
                  believe this is covered in the drafts.</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The flag could be nice, but again,=

                  that only covers IMAP.=C2=A0 What about POP (or MAPI)
                  users?=C2=A0 The cryptographic solution may be more
                  intensive, but seems like it may make BIMI more
                  available (but yes, at the expense of mobile CPU).=C2=A0=

                </p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Could you elaborate on the
                  =E2=80=9Ceverything checks out=E2=80=9D from your secti=
on about
                  evaluation?</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">--</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alex Brotman</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse &amp;
                  Messaging Policy</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comcast</p>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                <div
style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left=
:1.5pt
                  solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                  <div>
                    <div
style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top=
:1pt
                      solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> bimi &lt;<a
                          href=3D"mailto:bimi-bounces@ietf.org"
                          target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bimi=
-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                        <b>On Behalf Of </b>
                        Marcel Bokhorst<br>
                        <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 30, 2021 3:57 AM<br>
                        <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org"
                          target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bimi=
@ietf.org</a><br>
                        <b>Subject:</b> [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10,
                        Issue 2</p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
                          style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">FairEmai=
l
                          will not rely on the BIMI-Location header
                          because this requires support from the email
                          server. Instead, FairEmail will use the logo
                          in the VMC and fallback to the DNS record logo
                          location if needed (logo missing in the VMC,
                          etc). The logo will always be shown, but the
                          verified sender icon (a double check mark
                          before the sender's name) will be shown only
                          when everything checks out.</span></p>
                    </div>
                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
                      I think it would be a good idea to summarize the
                      steps to follow to fetch/decode/check BIMI because
                      I think it will make it easier for developers to
                      implement BIMI and to do this in the right way.<br>=

                      <br>
                      The BIMI TXT record is always being fetched from
                      the top level domain (<a
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/example.org__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!QOle=
DIsQOkjN3HXlKrItrq62gf5-G3hak8l7aDR3RAX6gQqWqTVXcLfIwcPA3DMVHSX2WGk$"
                        target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">exampl=
e.org</a>).
                      I hope this is correct.</p>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">An IMAP flag would be nice,
                        but I guess it will take quite some time until
                        all email servers are supporting this. Something
                        like a signed authentication results header
                        would be nice, as long as it can be checked in a
                        simple and efficient way. For example heavy
                        cryptographic operations and looking up DNS
                        records (for certificates, etc) would result in
                        slow downs and increased battery usage when
                        downloading many messages.<br>
                        <br>
                        <span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Curr=
ently,
                          the authentication header inserted by the
                          email server is just being trusted, but this
                          relies on either inserting the header by the
                          receiving email server or removing previous
                          headers of intermediate email servers.</span><b=
r>
                        <br>
                        <span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Fair=
Email
                          will cache the logo for two weeks, which is
                          the same as for favicons. IMHO this is a
                          reasonable default, preventing logos from
                          being fetched too often and still allowing to
                          change the logo by the sender (which I guess
                          won't happen too often).</span><br>
                        <br>
                        <span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I
                          hope this clarifies things, else feel free to
                          reply.</span></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marcel Bokhorst (author
                            of FairEmail)</p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                        </div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
                          ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
                          From:=C2=A0"Brotman, Alex" &lt;<a
                            href=3D"mailto:Alex_Brotman@comcast.com"
                            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Al=
ex_Brotman@comcast.com</a>&gt;<br>
                          To:=C2=A0Trent Adams &lt;tadams=3D<a
                            href=3D"mailto:40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g"
                            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">40=
proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                          "<a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org"
                            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bi=
mi@ietf.org</a>"
                          &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org"
                            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bi=
mi@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                          Cc:=C2=A0<br>
                          Bcc:=C2=A0<br>
                          Date:=C2=A0Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:45:04 +0000<br>
                          Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Bimi] Independent BIMI-capab=
le
                          Email Client</p>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do have that app, bu=
t
                              I haven=E2=80=99t yet pointed it at a platf=
orm
                              utilizing BIMI.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll make a n=
ote to give
                              it a try.</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">From below:</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <ul type=3D"disc">
                              <li class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                They aren't entirely clear on how (or
                                why) to evaluate a logo referenced by
                                the BIMI record and the one retrieved
                                from a VMC.</li>
                            </ul>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">What about the
                              BIMI-Location header instance, if present?
                              (assuming you want to trust that header,
                              etc).=C2=A0 After that, I=E2=80=99d probabl=
y use the
                              VMC if present.=C2=A0 Should we add an
                              evaluation path to the core document?</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <ul type=3D"disc">
                              <li class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                It's also not all that clear where to
                                retrieve the BIMI logo when the email is
                                sent from a subdomain, and match that up
                                with the DMARC results.</li>
                            </ul>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure I=
 follow
                              the issue here.=C2=A0 Is there some example=

                              that shows the questionable path?</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <ul type=3D"disc">
                              <li class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                There's also the question about whether
                                or not an independent client can/should
                                trust the authentication results
                                performed by the mailbox provider when
                                deciding to display the BIMI logo.</li>
                            </ul>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you go back to -00
                              of the core spec, there was an IMAP flag
                              that was meant to be set (Section 8.6).=C2=A0=

                              That was removed in -01.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99=
t recall
                              the justification, but may have had to do
                              with MUA workload.=C2=A0 Seems like the IMA=
P
                              flag could be reintroduced (POP3 would be
                              an issue though).=C2=A0 Or perhaps somethin=
g
                              akin to a DKIM signature signed by the
                              inbound MTA that could be verified by the
                              MUA.=C2=A0 The latter could potentially be
                              reused though?</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <ul type=3D"disc">
                              <li class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                There is a non-zero addition of
                                processing required by the client to
                                handle BIMI, leading to the question
                                about what impact this may have on a
                                client... and what efficiencies can be
                                introduced with local caching (if any).</=
li>
                            </ul>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99d think at l=
east
                              equivalent to the TTL of the BIMI DNS
                              record, perhaps even up to the expiration
                              of the VMC (though I could understand
                              where a domain holder could refresh their
                              VMC and change logos, etc).=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99=
m sure
                              there=E2=80=99s a better answer somewhere i=
n
                              between.</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">--</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alex Brotman</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sr. Engineer,
                                Anti-Abuse &amp; Messaging Policy</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comcast</p>
                            </div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            <div
style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left=
:1.5pt
                              solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                              <div>
                                <div
style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top=
:1pt
                                  solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in
                                  0in">
                                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> bim=
i
                                    &lt;<a
                                      href=3D"mailto:bimi-bounces@ietf.or=
g"
                                      target=3D"_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bimi-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Trent Adams<br>
                                    <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 23, 2021
                                    5:36 PM<br>
                                    <b>To:</b> <a
                                      href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org"
                                      target=3D"_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bimi@ietf.=
org</a><br>
                                    <b>Subject:</b> [Bimi] Independent
                                    BIMI-capable Email Client</p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since Gmail's
                                announcement, more companies are
                                starting to play around with BIMI (no
                                surprise there).=C2=A0 And, as expected, =
the
                                increased attention is helping to put
                                more eyeballs on the experiment.</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">And while some of th=
e
                                major mailbox providers are adding BIMI
                                support to their own mobile clients, I
                                ran into a FOSS project run by a
                                developer in the Netherlands who has
                                already added BIMI to their independent
                                mobile mail client.</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you get a chance,=

                                I'd suggest taking a look at their
                                FairEmail implementation as they made
                                some interesting choices:</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/email.faircode.eu/__;!!CQl3mcH=
X2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfdsADe=
C4$"
                                  target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">https://email.faircode.eu/</a></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The current Android
                                client package can be downloaded from
                                their GitHub repository:</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/M66B/FairEmail/rele=
ases__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjG=
Ug2a_oFLJHf2gwnAj4$"
                                  target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases</a></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">So far, they've
                                already found some useful results from
                                their experiment.=C2=A0 And now we're fin=
ally
                                at a point where we can test the
                                architecture (and pressure-test the
                                specifications) beyond the handful of
                                usual suspects.</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example, here're=

                                a few issues this work as already
                                surfaced when interpreting the
                                specifications [1] [2] [3]:</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <ul type=3D"disc">
                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                  They aren't entirely clear on how (or
                                  why) to evaluate a logo referenced by
                                  the BIMI record and the one retrieved
                                  from a VMC.</li>
                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                  It's also not all that clear where to
                                  retrieve the BIMI logo when the email
                                  is sent from a subdomain, and match
                                  that up with the DMARC results.</li>
                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                  There's also the question about
                                  whether or not an independent client
                                  can/should trust the authentication
                                  results performed by the mailbox
                                  provider when deciding to display the
                                  BIMI logo.</li>
                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                  There is a non-zero addition of
                                  processing required by the client to
                                  handle BIMI, leading to the question
                                  about what impact this may have on a
                                  client... and what efficiencies can be
                                  introduced with local caching (if
                                  any).</li>
                              </ul>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">What I found most
                                interesting was how the specifications
                                assume a tight coupling between the
                                client and the mailbox provider.=C2=A0 It=

                                definitely opens the question of whether
                                it's possible (or recommended) for an
                                independent client to support BIMI even
                                for email received by mailbox providers
                                that don't support it.=C2=A0 It's real-wo=
rld
                                interop testing like this that I hope
                                will highlight issues that need to be
                                discussed as the experiment continues.</p=
>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, if anyone woul=
d
                                be willing to test the FairEmail client,
                                I'd be keen to hear if you think that
                                the way it leverages BIMI matches your
                                expectations.=C2=A0 Also, are there any
                                others out there that might contribute
                                their learnings to the conversation?</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Anyway, thanks for
                                any feedback you may have.=C2=A0 It'll be=

                                useful to hash out ideas for
                                improvements and next steps on the list.<=
/p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Trent</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1]
                                <a
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVoPDIfnSSmOT5=
S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfVUyABq4$"
                                  target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-blank-ietf-bimi-02</a></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">[2]
                                <a
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
draft-fetch-validation-vmc-wchuang-00__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txq=
VoPDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfIMZn7Z8$"
                                  target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fetch-validation-vmc-wchuang-=
00</a></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">[3]
                                <a
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
draft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UUyJEN3_Ay0ac-Ux9txqVo=
PDIfnSSmOT5S-OCXjjRVeXJEEqrPRjGUg2a_oFLJHfQyodXbk$"
                                  target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"tr=
ue">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brotman-ietf-bimi-guidance-03=
</a></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">--=C2=A0</p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
                                    style=3D"font-size:10pt">J. Trent
                                    Adams</span></b></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span
                                    style=3D"font-size:10pt">Director,
                                    Ecosystem Security</span></i></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
                                    style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:rgb(81,=
120,141)">Proofpoint</span></b></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
                                  style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
                                  style=3D"font-size:10pt"><a
                                    href=3D"mailto:tadams@proofpoint.com"=

                                    target=3D"_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send=3D"true">tadams@proof=
point.com</a></span></p>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">bimi mailing list<br>
                          <a href=3D"mailto:bimi@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk"
                            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bimi@ietf.org</a><br=
>
                          <a
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
bimi__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!QOleDIsQOkjN3HXlKrItrq62gf5-G3hak8l7aDR3RAX6gQqWqTVXc=
LfIwcPA3DMVB8lC6MU$"
                            target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi</a></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
    </blockquote>
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