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--ba1f8540e1fe46648798a26745e64f24 Content-Type: text/plain On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, at 5:57 PM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything checks out. > I'm concerned by this, are any checks being done before showing the logo? Part of the reason behind the strict SVG profile is to strip out anything which may be a security or privacy risk, and depending on the implementation of the svg display code this could open users up to malicious scripting, or privacy bugs being executed. This is also one belefit of allowing the server to do the heavy lifting, checking everything is ok, and adding a pre-verified SVG into the BIMI-Indicator header. If (and I recognise that this IF if the issue here) the MUA trusts the MTA then there are some security and privacy benefits there. -- Marc Bradshaw marcbradshaw.net | @marcbradshaw --ba1f8540e1fe46648798a26745e64f24 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, at 5:57 PM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote:
=
The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a doub= le check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everythi= ng checks out.

=

I'm concerned by this, are any checks being done bef= ore showing the logo? Part of the reason behind the strict SVG profile i= s to strip out anything which may be a security or privacy risk, and dep= ending on the implementation of the svg display code this could open use= rs up to malicious scripting, or privacy bugs being executed.
<= div>This is also one belefit of allowing the server to do the heavy lift= ing, checking everything is ok, and adding a pre-verified SVG into the B= IMI-Indicator header. If (and I recognise that this IF if the issue here= ) the MUA trusts the MTA then there are some security and privacy benefi= ts there.

--
=

  Marc Bradshaw
&= nbsp; marcbradshaw.net |&n= bsp;@marcbradshaw

<= /div>

--ba1f8540e1fe46648798a26745e64f24-- From nobody Thu Aug 5 19:11:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD3A3A176D for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 19:11:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=dcrocker.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CkJlAq0LMlvk for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 19:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from donkey.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (donkey.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97FC83A1767 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 19:11:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: hostingeremail|x-authsender|dhc@dcrocker.net Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3608754206C; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 02:11:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from gcp-us-central1-a-smtpout2.hostinger.io (100-96-11-182.trex-nlb.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.11.182]) (Authenticated sender: hostingeremail) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id F027B541FE1; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 02:11:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: hostingeremail|x-authsender|dhc@dcrocker.net Received: from gcp-us-central1-a-smtpout2.hostinger.io (35.45.192.35.bc.googleusercontent.com [35.192.45.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by 100.96.11.182 (trex/6.3.3); Fri, 06 Aug 2021 02:11:05 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: hostingeremail|x-authsender|dhc@dcrocker.net X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: hostingeremail X-Desert-Snatch: 50275c2c6f127e15_1628215864849_50737718 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1628215864849:2031129835 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1628215864849 Received: from [192.168.0.112] (c-24-130-62-181.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.130.62.181]) (Authenticated sender: dhc@dcrocker.net) by smtp.hostinger.com (smtp.hostinger.com) with ESMTPSA id C4C4731285E1; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 02:10:59 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=hostingermail-a; t=1628215860; bh=Z0xVe6iG1YpodSFOocW0hA7ZIsKk2jUGrt1I4vGy2ag=; h=Reply-To:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=nRrrFZVTrSMzzu/xMYiqOWs8MGgxIHPaUa1Wb8VmME4wqQNKnaeYoPQHCnRD96E8d DO+4H7YsVdrCSmURNkQWRME2x1eiChVkUbPOzRkd915Y9l6CFN9BiF6BmyOPV6Ic9E MOgEpdviY2tblvlSK9V1WEITZe6LisMvIPdlVqoXNRUUCvDtyEcyP70GrHcIJ712D5 vvhDubRqqBE6w03m2l4bqsU3wDRH+a+j4UoJgT88dy50zm8+3MHje6z+cIt7xnPYcF sTRhoZMcqMJsRBsXP7V/zOFzPqCIZQsMT7puzo/b77RbZR0ntcdhlcUrjfJboKHtJT AY8S6I//IoYCQ== Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net To: Marcel Bokhorst , bimi@ietf.org References: From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <7ae776a3-4192-bae8-09dc-ce53d5e9ce14@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 19:10:59 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 02:11:12 -0000 On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double > check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything > checks out. Wow. What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the icon? I'm asking because there is no objective evidence it will make any difference in to real-world user behavior. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Thu Aug 5 22:19:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5EB3A1DC4 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 22:19:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=faircode.eu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kcctIUPXW_Xr for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 22:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 284633A1DC3 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 22:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id d6so11470674edt.7 for ; Thu, 05 Aug 2021 22:19:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=faircode.eu; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eDHGa95NzAKaKj1qkGH1xoqSYdHXMbR/N93Jf4kGLdU=; b=RaBhVzVmKmG0uqr/fJ4LpB8qREvyzxUfjW33vXywJQhm9XDzXjlOXQaJh33lhGASjO mjDb5GK6BZrfbsfjx8tz0/chKrf89/uWKi2XK1LVNoU72+k5IQDpVEN+5brPgBHlk+TO y2+BnTcIAZ7Pv+7S8BYwBh23C5YCGfWvZMwI2ew+OZB6wm+2NpqBspv+I+BpZUARaCuo SQZfkxKYB0ID5InyKmTQpuDh683xItmsojIpFVCy0sgU/AJKwKGX1SdKU9TRVwzOc7qt HpWQLurE6olnp6/6GHv7rRSP3dKZ78WfGOVS5QMPgwvDbQXZyYV82wi7AUKds1+QbqGb Q3rg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eDHGa95NzAKaKj1qkGH1xoqSYdHXMbR/N93Jf4kGLdU=; b=QK22pQgqbRO3QbVabHqBLNPw1vGg7N0NTxPW3DCfn8LIF0UXmLiPXWhkfinWQJd3JT KuvAlKZftQVfTACWHZZswhS1veINN6WIX8F791BR8s3E8RvI6FUrLQmEHgu7YKJDlGg7 XoH6ZfCbzNNPlUkGDwyfg4GU/WopNHK/qk9StU+vtXhMYyofvREqVO4UodkAG2dZPvZD +nZGugP+9/3Ubb1I73io6guC9+35648ZErnckZi56UdFi3dOXsErYUfYgTnm5WvNMJ+M O/GfoLFFJIq4LzzOcVt08OaFkBIMw1Or9DGZT5Oojgx5LzM8VyZLxuol4wGLJExAyasQ 2XCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531hx+TLyfqpUJyCZFZxe747CXNS1Y4kAEDd4rUL+sXQGYCfz8zt 9lOQiXPFyv22VR8WelAL5b+0BsVchZqptQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxe2K1Yn+/PIqq8+7xJ22hXHBCnSJI7LPctai4/Y2TJoQv/4ksIkrsb+yof/ZMszURjkNhMzw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d696:: with SMTP id d22mr10877748edr.309.1628227174327; Thu, 05 Aug 2021 22:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dummy.faircode.eu (86-85-75-234.fixed.kpn.net. [86.85.75.234]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c12sm1577341edu.76.2021.08.05.22.19.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Aug 2021 22:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 07:19:32 +0200 (GMT+02:00) From: Marcel Bokhorst To: Dave Crocker Cc: bimi@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7ae776a3-4192-bae8-09dc-ce53d5e9ce14@dcrocker.net> References: <7ae776a3-4192-bae8-09dc-ce53d5e9ce14@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Correlation-ID: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 05:19:42 -0000 The difference is that individuals and smaller companies can show an logo. Currently, I have seen only one company using BIMI with a valid VMC, which is Booking.com. The VMC of both PayPal and LinkedIn is expired. On the other hand, I have seen a number of logos of individuals and smaller companies and organizations without a VMC. I understand that just a logo doesn't imply verification, but it still makes it easier to recognize emails. Unverified sender doesn't say bad sender! Verified senders are clearly marked with a double check mark, you won't miss. Maybe this is not the intended use of the BIMI standard, but this is how it works in practice now. I think the implied question is "/How about individual and small companies?/" and "/How about adoption of big companies?/". 6 aug. 2021 04:11:08 Dave Crocker : > On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: >> The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything checks out. > > > Wow. > > What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the icon? > > I'm asking because there is no objective evidence it will make any difference in to real-world user behavior. > > d/ > From nobody Thu Aug 5 22:48:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F453A1EC2 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 22:48:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=marcbradshaw.net header.b=TrHMaiu8; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=isLwOwD4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIXM-dGQTm8J for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 22:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC0723A1EBF for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 22:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6127E320082A for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 01:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 06 Aug 2021 01:48:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= marcbradshaw.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; 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Fri, 6 Aug 2021 01:48:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-552-g2afffd2709-fm-20210805.001-g2afffd27 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <7ae776a3-4192-bae8-09dc-ce53d5e9ce14@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 15:47:42 +1000 From: "Marc Bradshaw" To: bimi@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=6ad07e4f39cc480492b5cc381b66517a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 05:48:12 -0000 --6ad07e4f39cc480492b5cc381b66517a Content-Type: text/plain On Fri, 6 Aug 2021, at 3:19 PM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > The difference is that individuals and smaller companies can show an logo. > > Currently, I have seen only one company using BIMI with a valid VMC, which is Booking.com. The VMC of both PayPal and LinkedIn is expired. We are seeing a number of valid VMCs in the wild, and that number is growing quickly now we are past the pilot stage, but yes, we also see a number of expired or otherwise problematic VMCs, but this group isn't the place to address that. > On the other hand, I have seen a number of logos of individuals and smaller companies and organizations without a VMC. > > I understand that just a logo doesn't imply verification, but it still makes it easier to recognize emails. Unverified sender doesn't say bad sender! > > Verified senders are clearly marked with a double check mark, you won't miss. The verification of an Evidence Document (of which a VMC is currently the only example) is optional. It feels perfectly fine to display both self asserted and evidence verified logos, with some visual indication there, so long as it's clear what that visual indication is implying of course. There are other things which need to be verified, such as the DMARC enforcement status of the domain, and compliance of the SVG to the Tiny-PS profile. These are not optional, so please do make sure those checks are done before showing the logo. > Maybe this is not the intended use of the BIMI standard, but this is how it works in practice now. > > I think the implied question is "/How about individual and small companies?/" and "/How about adoption of big companies?/". Don't forget, this is still an experiment, we have to start somewhere. For some context, Fastmail will do all of the technical policy and profile checks, and not show a logo if any of those fail. If there is a VMC present then we will check it, and not display for any domains which fail the VMC check, but if one is not present then a logo will be shown provided all of the previously mentioned technical and policy checks passed. > 6 aug. 2021 04:11:08 Dave Crocker : > > > On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > >> The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything checks out. > > > > > > Wow. > > > > What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the icon? > > > > I'm asking because there is no objective evidence it will make any difference in to real-world user behavior. > > > > d/ > > > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > -- Marc Bradshaw marcbradshaw.net | @marcbradshaw --6ad07e4f39cc480492b5cc381b66517a Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Fri, 6 Aug 2021, at 3:19 PM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote:
The difference is that indiv= iduals and smaller companies can show an logo.

<= div>Currently, I have seen only one company using BIMI with a valid VMC,= which is Booking.com. The VMC of both PayPal and LinkedIn is expired.

We are seeing a number of valid= VMCs in the wild, and that number is growing quickly now we are past th= e pilot stage, but yes, we also see a number of expired or otherwise pro= blematic VMCs, but this group isn't the place to address that.
=

On th= e other hand, I have seen a number of logos of individuals and smaller c= ompanies and organizations without a VMC.

I= understand that just a logo doesn't imply verification, but it still ma= kes it easier to recognize emails. Unverified sender doesn't say bad sen= der!

Verified senders are clearly marked wi= th a double check mark, you won't miss.

<= /div>
The verification of an Evidence Document (of which a VMC is cu= rrently the only example) is optional. It feels perfectly fine to displa= y both self asserted and evidence verified logos, with some visual indic= ation there, so long as it's clear what that visual indication is implyi= ng of course.

There are other things which = need to be verified, such as the DMARC enforcement status of the domain,= and compliance of the SVG to the Tiny-PS profile. These are not optiona= l, so please do make sure those checks are done before showing the logo.=

=
Maybe this is not the intended use of the BIMI standard, but this i= s how it works in practice now.

I think the= implied question is "/How about individual and small companies?/" and "= /How about adoption of big companies?/".

=
Don't forget, this is still an experiment, we have to start s= omewhere.

For some context, Fastmail will d= o all of the technical policy and profile checks, and not show a logo if= any of those fail. If there is a VMC present then we will check it, and= not display for any domains which fail the VMC check, but if one is not= present then a logo will be shown provided all of the previously mentio= ned technical and policy checks passed.

6 aug. 2021 04:11:08 Dave Cr= ocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>:<= br>

> On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst= wrote:
>> The logo will always be shown, but the ve= rified sender icon (a double check mark before the sender's name) will b= e shown only when everything checks out.
> 
> 
> Wow.
> 
<= /div>
> What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in s= howing the icon?
> 
> I'm asking = because there is no objective evidence it will make any difference in to= real-world user behavior.
> 
> d= /
> 


--

<= div class=3D"signature">  Marc Bradshaw
  marcbradshaw.net= | @marcbradshaw


--6ad07e4f39cc480492b5cc381b66517a-- From nobody Thu Aug 5 23:10:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833523A1F84 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:10:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=faircode.eu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RgldeRI-LwI9 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB5743A1F82 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id m18so10402350ljo.1 for ; Thu, 05 Aug 2021 23:09:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=faircode.eu; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PA4nLdUdOb3T/8ayJyAYOyOB1dWArqRK8Keh6zt9M8A=; b=Ye63deaQL9YKlgtqtVGZKYOf/GnGLRmKX5yvjHmWf+GYcDyulJHWzfrEIct1Z1ne5U Ds4pep0ftjkIAzutb5tjn/aZOI3K61RewUfRSYjgVcCZYaJPoNjXM+0NLZmngNeF/dS/ gnyj26aMPO9bvndm5wx/4eUv+gdV9UToJjtxZxCEwZ+Opk6iBb8byJrEU/aIESv6ntoO 6BsEJ+BGeSy854u8FPpSZ2Y7c6JI08mbMZGE2+UvKELdK2hr63S3OqnyUQHm5JS8wFP+ Q5QOndfYk/9c9EaKGaKIGRe9Cn9otg6EahxbcwuEtJkGK+3bYfZ8tZQi+6gVJMT9QaHs 0tCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=PA4nLdUdOb3T/8ayJyAYOyOB1dWArqRK8Keh6zt9M8A=; b=jo6jV/ztWu82/Gt+uZIYIYXwZr9J+Pm13B49fjUcDyWiZu3J+W/1+H0IKHS/4za94H mGPkJJnvlKiJsPrZQ6c08a2E9bovLioHQjTsyhl9h5oHnCJqaKP6O9wV6XuW/RCRdYMQ CxnT3R/y2SEAHt9FQFtKZgQn17nT+qzPRYWTG78ujktIyZwi/knQfZ5tvSuhD0CLpvmk WCwBGUCStdSCINyxp30t0dAMrxrJPGJa/MsYumdWx8QfFlHaD9392ZDMFdrMyL/BH33t gq8Ppes+7VookCjezSv+4yKJEwS6rSBZHiwwoAPqBk7MqqyTRAt34igoQzYPYskKpswt 6zBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531tjVnkRrI24D6RkatMu0c5onvN+Qxb7mcrdDfswmFUmIVKhbK0 Pd4pQ9uU/B1A6rXoY1knAAshs6u6RuIWJybtGgNSnJzH7PM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx5rJ/A8sc5XvMz/7A/ee04oegpoH2Gw9mMsRHkBew9YEEV55esU6HtflILkd9oW3ALABt4BmvwrXhKcnFM8yw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:891:: with SMTP id d17mr5511547ljq.24.1628230194161; Thu, 05 Aug 2021 23:09:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Marcel Bokhorst Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 08:09:28 +0200 Message-ID: To: bimi@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000055fe3605c8dde26a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] bimi Digest, Vol 11, Issue 2 X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 06:10:03 -0000 --00000000000055fe3605c8dde26a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Since there is no SVG support in Android (really not!), a third party library needs to be used. FairEmail uses this one: http://bigbadaboom.github.io/androidsvg/ Unfortunately, there is no support for strict SVG profiles in this library and there are not many other libraries (maintained and supported) and they will probably not support strict profiles either. So, from the perspective of Android, SVG is a bad choice. PNG would have been better I guess. Op vr 6 aug. 2021 om 07:48 schreef : > Send bimi mailing list submissions to > bimi@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > bimi-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > bimi-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of bimi digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 (Marc Bradshaw) > 2. Re: Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 (Dave Crocker) > 3. Re: Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 (Marcel Bokhorst) > 4. Re: Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 (Marc Bradshaw) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Marc Bradshaw > To: bimi@ietf.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 11:57:25 +1000 > Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 > > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, at 5:57 PM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > > The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double > check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything > checks out. > > > I'm concerned by this, are any checks being done before showing the logo? > Part of the reason behind the strict SVG profile is to strip out anything > which may be a security or privacy risk, and depending on the > implementation of the svg display code this could open users up to > malicious scripting, or privacy bugs being executed. > This is also one belefit of allowing the server to do the heavy lifting, > checking everything is ok, and adding a pre-verified SVG into the > BIMI-Indicator header. If (and I recognise that this IF if the issue here) > the MUA trusts the MTA then there are some security and privacy benefits > there. > > -- > > Marc Bradshaw > marcbradshaw.net | @marcbradshaw > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dave Crocker > To: Marcel Bokhorst , bimi@ietf.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 19:10:59 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 > On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > > The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double > > check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything > > checks out. > > > Wow. > > What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the icon? > > I'm asking because there is no objective evidence it will make any > difference in to real-world user behavior. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Marcel Bokhorst > To: Dave Crocker > Cc: bimi@ietf.org > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 07:19:32 +0200 (GMT+02:00) > Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 > The difference is that individuals and smaller companies can show an logo. > > Currently, I have seen only one company using BIMI with a valid VMC, which > is Booking.com. The VMC of both PayPal and LinkedIn is expired. > > On the other hand, I have seen a number of logos of individuals and > smaller companies and organizations without a VMC. > > I understand that just a logo doesn't imply verification, but it still > makes it easier to recognize emails. Unverified sender doesn't say bad > sender! > > Verified senders are clearly marked with a double check mark, you won't > miss. > > Maybe this is not the intended use of the BIMI standard, but this is how > it works in practice now. > > I think the implied question is "/How about individual and small > companies?/" and "/How about adoption of big companies?/". > > 6 aug. 2021 04:11:08 Dave Crocker : > > > On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > >> The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double > check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything > checks out. > > > > > > Wow. > > > > What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the icon? > > > > I'm asking because there is no objective evidence it will make any > difference in to real-world user behavior. > > > > d/ > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Marc Bradshaw > To: bimi@ietf.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 15:47:42 +1000 > Subject: Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 > > On Fri, 6 Aug 2021, at 3:19 PM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > > The difference is that individuals and smaller companies can show an logo. > > Currently, I have seen only one company using BIMI with a valid VMC, which > is Booking.com. The VMC of both PayPal and LinkedIn is expired. > > > We are seeing a number of valid VMCs in the wild, and that number is > growing quickly now we are past the pilot stage, but yes, we also see a > number of expired or otherwise problematic VMCs, but this group isn't the > place to address that. > > On the other hand, I have seen a number of logos of individuals and > smaller companies and organizations without a VMC. > > I understand that just a logo doesn't imply verification, but it still > makes it easier to recognize emails. Unverified sender doesn't say bad > sender! > > Verified senders are clearly marked with a double check mark, you won't > miss. > > > The verification of an Evidence Document (of which a VMC is currently the > only example) is optional. It feels perfectly fine to display both self > asserted and evidence verified logos, with some visual indication there, so > long as it's clear what that visual indication is implying of course. > > There are other things which need to be verified, such as the DMARC > enforcement status of the domain, and compliance of the SVG to the Tiny-PS > profile. These are not optional, so please do make sure those checks are > done before showing the logo. > > Maybe this is not the intended use of the BIMI standard, but this is how > it works in practice now. > > I think the implied question is "/How about individual and small > companies?/" and "/How about adoption of big companies?/". > > > Don't forget, this is still an experiment, we have to start somewhere. > > For some context, Fastmail will do all of the technical policy and profile > checks, and not show a logo if any of those fail. If there is a VMC present > then we will check it, and not display for any domains which fail the VMC > check, but if one is not present then a logo will be shown provided all of > the previously mentioned technical and policy checks passed. > > 6 aug. 2021 04:11:08 Dave Crocker : > > > On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote: > >> The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double > check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everything > checks out. > > > > > > Wow. > > > > What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the icon? > > > > I'm asking because there is no objective evidence it will make any > difference in to real-world user behavior. > > > > d/ > > > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > > > -- > > Marc Bradshaw > marcbradshaw.net | @marcbradshaw > > > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > > --00000000000055fe3605c8dde26a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Since the= re is no SVG support in Android (really not!), a third party library needs = to be used. FairEmail uses this one:


Unfortunately, the= re is no support for strict SVG profiles in this library and there are not = many other libraries (maintained and supported) and they will probably not = support strict profiles either.

So, from the persp= ective of Android, SVG is a bad choice. PNG would have been better I guess.=



Op vr 6 aug. 2021 om 07:48 schreef <bimi-request@ietf.org<= /a>>:
Send bimi mailing list submissions to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bimi@ietf.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/bimi
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bimi-request@ietf.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bimi-owner@ietf.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of bimi digest..."
Today's Topics:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 (Marc Bradshaw)
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 (Dave Crocker)
=C2=A0 =C2=A03. Re: Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 (Marcel Bokhorst)
=C2=A0 =C2=A04. Re: Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 (Marc Bradshaw)



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Marc Brad= shaw <marc@ma= rcbradshaw.net>
To:=C2=A0bimi@ietf.org
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri,= 06 Aug 2021 11:57:25 +1000
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, V= ol 10, Issue 2


On Fri, 30= Jul 2021, at 5:57 PM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote:
The logo will alway= s be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double check mark before the se= nder's name) will be shown only when everything checks out.


I'm c= oncerned by this, are any checks being done before showing the logo? Part o= f the reason behind the strict SVG profile is to strip out anything which m= ay be a security or privacy risk, and depending on the implementation of th= e svg display code this could open users up to malicious scripting, or priv= acy bugs being executed.
This is also one belefit of allowing= the server to do the heavy lifting, checking everything is ok, and adding = a pre-verified SVG into the BIMI-Indicator header. If (and I recognise that= this IF if the issue here) the MUA trusts the MTA then there are some secu= rity and privacy benefits there.

--

=C2=A0 Marc Bradshaw
=C2=A0=C2=A0marcb= radshaw.net |=C2=A0@marcbradshaw





---------- Forwarde= d message ----------
From:=C2=A0Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
To:=C2=A0Marcel = Bokhorst <marcel= @faircode.eu>, bi= mi@ietf.org
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Thu, 5 Aug 2021 19= :10:59 -0700
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2<= br>On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote:
> The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a double =
> check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when every= thing
> checks out.


Wow.

What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the icon?
I'm asking because there is no objective evidence it will make any
difference in to real-world user behavior.

d/

--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net





---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Marcel Bo= khorst <marcel@f= aircode.eu>
To:=C2=A0Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
Cc:=C2=A0bimi@ietf.org
Bcc:=C2=A0=
Date:=C2=A0Fri, 6 Aug 2021 07:19:32 +0200 (GMT+02:00)
Subject:=C2=A0= Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
The difference is that indi= viduals and smaller companies can show an logo.

Currently, I have seen only one company using BIMI with a valid VMC, which = is Booking.com. The VMC of both PayPal and LinkedIn is expired.

On the other hand, I have seen a number of logos of individuals and smaller= companies and organizations without a VMC.

I understand that just a logo doesn't imply verification, but it still = makes it easier to recognize emails. Unverified sender doesn't say bad = sender!

Verified senders are clearly marked with a double check mark, you won't= miss.

Maybe this is not the intended use of the BIMI standard, but this is how it= works in practice now.

I think the implied question is "/How about individual and small compa= nies?/" and "/How about adoption of big companies?/".

6 aug. 2021 04:11:08 Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>:

> On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote:
>> The logo will always be shown, but the verified sender icon (a dou= ble check mark before the sender's name) will be shown only when everyt= hing checks out.
>
>
> Wow.
>
> What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the ic= on?
>
> I'm asking because there is no objective evidence it will make any= difference in to real-world user behavior.
>
> d/
>





---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Marc Brad= shaw <marc@ma= rcbradshaw.net>
To:=C2=A0bimi@ietf.org
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri,= 06 Aug 2021 15:47:42 +1000
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Bimi] Fwd: bimi Digest, V= ol 10, Issue 2

On Fri, 6 Aug 2021, at 3:= 19 PM, Marcel Bokhorst wrote:
The difference is that= individuals and smaller companies can show an logo.

Currently, I have seen only one company using BIMI with a valid VMC,= which is Booking.com. The VMC of both PayPal and LinkedIn is expired.
<= /div>

We are seeing a number of valid VMCs = in the wild, and that number is growing quickly now we are past the pilot s= tage, but yes, we also see a number of expired or otherwise problematic VMC= s, but this group isn't the place to address that.

On the other hand, I have seen a number of logos of indiv= iduals and smaller companies and organizations without a VMC.

I understand that just a logo doesn't imply verificatio= n, but it still makes it easier to recognize emails. Unverified sender does= n't say bad sender!

Verified senders are c= learly marked with a double check mark, you won't miss.

The verification of an Evidence Document (of whi= ch a VMC is currently the only example) is optional. It feels perfectly fin= e to display both self asserted and evidence verified logos, with some visu= al indication there, so long as it's clear what that visual indication = is implying of course.

There are other things = which need to be verified, such as the DMARC enforcement status of the doma= in, and compliance of the SVG to the Tiny-PS profile. These are not optiona= l, so please do make sure those checks are done before showing the logo.

Maybe this is not the intended use of t= he BIMI standard, but this is how it works in practice now.
<= br>
I think the implied question is "/How about individual a= nd small companies?/" and "/How about adoption of big companies?/= ".

Don't forget, this is= still an experiment, we have to start somewhere.

<= div>For some context, Fastmail will do all of the technical policy and prof= ile checks, and not show a logo if any of those fail. If there is a VMC pre= sent then we will check it, and not display for any domains which fail the = VMC check, but if one is not present then a logo will be shown provided all= of the previously mentioned technical and policy checks passed.
<= div>
6 aug. 2021 04:11:08 Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>:

> On 7/30/2021 12:57 AM, Marcel Bokhorst wrot= e:
>> The logo will always be shown, but the verified s= ender icon (a double check mark before the sender's name) will be shown= only when everything checks out.
>=C2=A0
&g= t;=C2=A0
> Wow.
>=C2=A0
>= ; What is supposed to be the differential user benefit in showing the icon?=
>=C2=A0
> I'm asking because there i= s no objective evidence it will make any difference in to real-world user b= ehavior.
>=C2=A0
> d/
>= =C2=A0

--=C2=A0
bimi mailing lis= t

--

=C2=A0 Marc Bradshaw
=C2=A0= =C2=A0marcbradshaw.n= et |=C2=A0@marcbradshaw

bimi mailing list
bimi@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi

--00000000000055fe3605c8dde26a-- From nobody Fri Aug 6 07:15:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDD63A2EFA for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 07:15:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=kh/irW/A; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=a+yr555+ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PRcBeJ46SSgg for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 07:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 286033A2EDD for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 87548 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2021 14:15:14 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=155fa.610d43f2.k2108; bh=6QI4d3dgfQ+Mk7Y4R0Re2RwhzrzCUUkSCrCZGGJnP7c=; b=kh/irW/ABKg7hV72qaaQ9h9dMxEzErlzYuhP4W6M/CLdyrAymF89f5i4ZaApl4s4gie/Huo8nujxoK2e/O/x09VB3klEkCfQDAZhBfryQf6yZbivSdAsN7GBI6gQXcBrxv4aJnsKzKLV2DFgSNpg+d3/cR18KDSwJEtVMba8To9GFMrQz1nS71FGWflZFi+diPWPJb9E5Foi7z57nVd6wgoSjvdMfMcQzcek078nDwe/m+gohF9EZKFc8RhzL+eyP6V+iGKTMxTzx7n/z3OHJiYkFqkzrcGaKb2va69Gi15w2JSmMGNrHUV07uIYTKrZsfAWfrCyQ6AfkInjpECXIg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=155fa.610d43f2.k2108; bh=6QI4d3dgfQ+Mk7Y4R0Re2RwhzrzCUUkSCrCZGGJnP7c=; b=a+yr555+t0UFY6bqhAlXI/GyikyUCEo7+7n7Tl24z3+h/q2sjqE5jtZvKNMopniPwhSgLRPyYXOxAkEMBFl5zwrwK6TWJR40c10yXqxV2OT+IAOtvbIvGLFsQ1to9TfsA596QT0kjY0zvws3vp+62qZEvSy3kAgziAf44L8EpPfjs77LDq3stQp6Cg48oonI8V99v8bTzacaCpua3ZHhc2Ma0f70Djrv8MBgmvVGpCjVR5jn2LyERPJb5BIHBYBJ9/IPzocSKfmcLaST593dvFxyLr67RQIanWHYpEp5um8Q6GV5iODhRCFgJ54AMepFRqWhui9nkwaL1qnbMqY+1A== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 06 Aug 2021 14:15:13 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0A07325A6566; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: 6 Aug 2021 10:15:11 -0400 Message-Id: <20210806141513.0A07325A6566@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: bimi@ietf.org Cc: marcel@faircode.eu In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] bimi logos from non-giant companies X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 14:15:21 -0000 It appears that Marcel Bokhorst said: >The difference is that individuals and smaller companies can show an logo. Makes sense. Bimi is about giving marketing departments another place to show their branding. It doesn't have anything to do with mail recipients. 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mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB4351.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: d4f1d2ce-283a-4254-a3b5-08d95d8c4e61 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Aug 2021 12:25:43.9833 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: zrq7RXJ7cQXKg8Ku9+jX3JGbrx7tNE/39DPMaL6LdT+2xZSoGApYIIQjLK107UmOlkMoefCF58hq7bAcob2F6ophaDXgCs2lUV5kF2vmxhQ= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BL1PR11MB5495 x-originatororg: comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWB X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: D4GieZNxJ-ielVuePtDqmBIG7XdHuI9J X-Proofpoint-GUID: D4GieZNxJ-ielVuePtDqmBIG7XdHuI9J X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-12_04:2021-08-12, 2021-08-12 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: [Bimi] FW: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for svg element X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:25:56 -0000 SGV5IGZvbGtzLA0KDQpOb3Qgc3VyZSBpZiBvdGhlcnMgd291bGQgaGF2ZSBhIGNvbW1lbnQgb24g dGhpcy4gIEkndmUgY3JlYXRlZCB0aGlzIGFzOg0KDQpodHRwczovL3RyYWMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvdHJh Yy9iaW1pL3RpY2tldC8yDQoNClNlZW1zIGxpa2UgYSByZWFzb25hYmxlIHJlcXVlc3QuICBCYXJy aW5nIGNvbW1lbnRzIHRvIHRoZSBjb250cmFyeSwgdGhpcyB3b3VsZCBiZSBpbiB0aGUgbmV4dCBp dGVyYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIFJOQyBhbmQgZHJhZnQuDQoNCi0tDQpBbGV4IEJyb3RtYW4NClNyLiBF bmdpbmVlciwgQW50aS1BYnVzZSAmIE1lc3NhZ2luZyBQb2xpY3kNCkNvbWNhc3QNCg0KPiAtLS0t LU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBEYW5pZWwgTWljYXkgPFJFREFDVEVEPg0K PiBTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBBdWd1c3QgMTAsIDIwMjEgMjo1OCBBTQ0KPiBUbzogZHJhZnQtc3Zn LXRpbnktcHMtYWJyb3RtYW5AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogTWlzc2luZyB2aWV3cG9ydC1m aWxsIGFuZCBvdGhlciBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzIGZvciBzdmcgZWxlbWVudA0KPg0KPiBUaGUgdmlld3Bv cnQtZmlsbCBhdHRyaWJ1dGUgYW5kIGEgZmV3IG90aGVyIHJlbmRlcmluZyByZWxhdGVkIGF0dHJp YnV0ZXMgc3VjaCBhcw0KPiBzaGFwZS1yZW5kZXJpbmcgYXJlIG9ubHkgZGVmaW5lZCBieSB0aGUg U1ZHIFRpbnkgUG9ydGFibGUvU2VjdXJlIGdyYW1tYXIgZm9yDQo+IHRpdGxlIGFuZCBkZXNjIGVs ZW1lbnRzIGJ1dCBub3QgdGhlIHN2ZyBlbGVtZW50IHdoZXJlIHRoZXkgdXN1YWxseSB3b3JrIHdp dGgNCj4gdGhlIGZ1bGwgU1ZHIDEuMiBUaW55IHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24uDQo+DQo+IEl0J3MgcG9z c2libGUgdG8gYXBwcm94aW1pYXRlIHZpZXdwb3J0LWZpbGwgd2l0aCBhIHJlY3QsIGJ1dCBpdCBp c24ndCBxdWl0ZSB0aGUgc2FtZQ0KPiB0aGluZzoNCj4NCj4gICAgIDxyZWN0IHdpZHRoPSIxMDAl IiBoZWlnaHQ9IjEwMCUiIGZpbGw9IndoaXRlIi8+DQo+DQo+IFVzaW5nIHZpZXdwb3J0LWZpbGw9 IndoaXRlIiBpcyBtdWNoIG5pY2VyIHNpbmNlIGl0IHdpbGwgZmlsbCB0aGUgd2hvbGUgdmlld3Bv cnQgZXZlbg0KPiBpZiB0aGUgYXNwZWN0IHJhdGlvIGlzIGRpZmZlcmVudC4gR29vZ2xlIHJlY29t bWVuZHMgdXNpbmcgYSBzb2xpZCBiYWNrZ3JvdW5kDQo+IGNvbG9yIGZvciBCSU1JLCB3aGVyZSB0 aGlzIHN1YnNldCBvZiBTVkcgaXMgcmVxdWlyZWQsIHNvIGl0J3MgYW5ub3lpbmcgdGhhdCB0aGUN Cj4gcHJvcGVyIHdheSB0byBkbyBpdCBpcyBtaXNzaW5nOg0KPg0KPiBodHRwczovL3N1cHBvcnQu Z29vZ2xlLmNvbS9hL2Fuc3dlci8xMDkxMTAyNw0KPg0KPiBUaGUgbGFjayBvZiB0aGVzZSBhdHRy aWJ1dGVzIGFsc28gbWFrZXMgaXQgaGFyZGVyIHRoYW4gbmVjZXNzYXJ5IHRvIHVzZSB0aGlzDQo+ IGZvcm1hdCBzaW5jZSB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byBzdHJpcCBvdXQgc2hhcGUtcmVuZGVyaW5nLCBldGMu IGZyb20gYW4gZXhpc3RpbmcgU1ZHDQo+IFRpbnkgMS4yIGV2ZW4gdGhvdWdoIHRoZXkncmUgaGFy bWxlc3MuIFJlbmRlcmluZyBxdWFsaXR5IGRpcmVjdGl2ZXMgY2FuIGJlDQo+IGltcGxlbWVudGVk IGFzIGEgbm8tb3AgYW55d2F5LiBJIGRvbid0IHJlYWxseSBzZWUgYSByZWFzb24gdG8gZm9yYmlk IHRob3NlLA0KPiBlc3BlY2lhbGx5IHdpdGggaXQgcGVybWl0dGVkIGZvciB0aXRsZS9kZXNjLg0K From nobody Thu Aug 12 06:40:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868A73A13FF for ; 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Thu, 12 Aug 2021 15:40:35 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailkit.eu Received: from mail.mailkit.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mailkit.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UPFdCdl_X5zp for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 15:40:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:40:28 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailkit.com; s=mk-2; t=1628775630; bh=HJAM+V2FAj3vLHYi6aHguMKyQBECvUP9lFmLYaL+nK8=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=kDQyQDm+Vdbq/eQOJa90dWrrNDf5l4pLon+tGnhp7OUFjksFrB/kFO6Ok4N9jDs/v 2IPiLY2Kj8ULVLr7j/lszPb5XqvKTrl6x9eWOIxkE2XSiO9hX/V//+USVaKDyiNY1S 0iG4xPsAoOJadjhCqvVYfSPEt2nccCTax0Uf4+E58mhVUgbSEFiHjYcMNhzEY0pNqp rgDqZGS7zqBgPJYdoPUHBvqeMhsOuqHGnyaBQEG9wTYJXUf9qBojWFeZEbn0pLpgzX c7I7JBTG9v7RQgyfrpPwsoBU9AxS/2wle34X4zmT4eVy6dugEgvjpjaMIjTkGA6cLs nH7czkQYDHi7w== From: Jakub Olexa To: bimi@ietf.org Message-ID: <555f866c-ac0a-410e-b4a0-e01ecc2a62fe@mailkit.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Correlation-ID: <555f866c-ac0a-410e-b4a0-e01ecc2a62fe@mailkit.com> Archived-At: Subject: [Bimi] FW: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for svg element X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:40:49 -0000 Makes sense. Nothing insecure abou viewport fill and there should be no display issues with this. 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uOTuQHs8cWtwQ== From: Jakub Olexa To: bimi@ietf.org Message-ID: <2853d913-1700-4e97-b29a-0c8cae726616@mailkit.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Correlation-ID: <2853d913-1700-4e97-b29a-0c8cae726616@mailkit.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] FW: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for svg element X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 14:52:50 -0000 video, image and animation are not allowed at all. I would suggest removing text support as text rendering of SVG may result in inconsistent display across devices/engines which in turn may result in logos not being true to the intended original. 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mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB4351.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 96dfb1a2-73d7-4e0b-bfa6-08d95dc1fd76 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Aug 2021 18:50:01.0366 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: rOwkactVIw69wE2SJqa1QO+AQNv1bM61QnTF454qvMBxHrYsrKCMmt6wiGxD2Fc5LFv2xblqlKA5IOL7Qps+9BBAFR6Et41QESqzTIVv9vA= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BL1PR11MB5495 x-originatororg: comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWQ X-Proofpoint-GUID: cj1-SdWffjxRPolmn-r6-HbzGWqvZEsm X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: cj1-SdWffjxRPolmn-r6-HbzGWqvZEsm X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-12_06:2021-08-12, 2021-08-12 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] FW: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for svg element X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 18:50:32 -0000 We'd just be adding it back to the element. We can have a separate thread about the text support, if you'd like. I und= erstand the concerns, though wonder if the usefulness is there for some ent= ities. -- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast > -----Original Message----- > From: bimi On Behalf Of Jakub Olexa > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2021 10:53 AM > To: bimi@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Bimi] FW: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for sv= g > element > > video, image and animation are not allowed at all. > > I would suggest removing text support as text rendering of SVG may result= in > inconsistent display across devices/engines which in turn may result in l= ogos > not being true to the intended original. > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi__ > ;!!CQl3mcHX2A!WMLvDbolzGDA9je0UkLRG5ZOAj1D- > lHRIJNG2TkxUQB1E6vSeEMlCv1QEcD1J7kV2fyGmLM$ From nobody Thu Aug 12 13:02:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10FD93A4822 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:02:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mailkit.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Rr15EK5CDPg for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mailkit.eu (mail.mailkit.eu [185.136.200.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 669653A481D for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mailkit.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715F020511 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 22:02:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailkit.eu Received: from mail.mailkit.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mailkit.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id teBjfwl-hIoi for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 22:02:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 20:02:20 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailkit.com; s=mk-2; t=1628798543; bh=9eg207hHNv2jMMQsKYSmoXf+CtR4JNN8rMFj7o0+HZI=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=cQ8BPUmy0vWsGbmsHVOA+muLC0zBz0gwLhktjRB8rJfMsVGDrFYoi5trqU+VNr4i1 ynCFVb5WFDeqSv5trp0EvMI4KnhDD92bd30KWtqOAgKrJyKQfV/zJ8HjNbPl+K1PBO ZrcmeS4oPpuAupPwUbc218ZXsay9LiDXIyt/lTLg9M2j2sLWfM7fDDe/YxECpMsj0t X9gW1b44r1B9EuDGGVyaByHxd2f1SORXiAh5jPbxrfzuB2mw6ckEZAVofMBYwPwt4v HHkbssSm1E8nXhZobOdqVWnCIrncfmtPMUOI+qgfUNkKDsmETMhBndKaUMUvEXr3sY 81MPeOWzA6edA== From: Jakub Olexa To: bimi@ietf.org Message-ID: <10426c56-21b0-432c-a3e6-072b144e314f@mailkit.com> In-Reply-To: References: <2853d913-1700-4e97-b29a-0c8cae726616@mailkit.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Correlation-ID: <10426c56-21b0-432c-a3e6-072b144e314f@mailkit.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] FW: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for svg element X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 20:02:39 -0000 Quite frankly I have not encountered a single logo that would be tiny-ps compliant and used a text but the fact that it's possible to use text on itself it somewhat scary to me...not to mention that I know a way how to abuse the text element. From nobody Thu Aug 12 18:23:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18EE93A13C5 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 18:23:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=marcbradshaw.net header.b=cCKLrWqR; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=LLIa6fOH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QeK-85U7qgBp for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 18:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3E123A13C1 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 18:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6EE5C00D5 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:22:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= marcbradshaw.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=FQZMDHb SZW/BxSikkthx4tpPHHkCG1G4RZO8aiC0L/s=; b=cCKLrWqR0OVeKYNFSNR1tPl REKVbfXO4eiWlLnWbDD/DDg8zG2g/Mtz0gkRk6yj15oHgAIeN31KsOeSy7JajeHN kB223H27Cmq9/CZonRxU1dJuWLm+JD4JfLqTM/g9YEC/6Gl18HxSjWwObLTNAEc5 SpgCej6wfIQunyJKTBB9rkIVYukYWOgkfDIhcbSBMsacbqiEtJ2EZy2nu4U3N3IN jOWrfiwfXbUM6dfQvw2bDjc9T7yKZM/TBhBYsjbJBrh7MmU+FLvbZbIp1qo/oWLq xfFnIZVXOVBN9r7H1lIsGnezr4PfNJ6s4NRHWk/xrKsbzhSMpm5jp/0b9tybD4w= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=FQZMDH bSZW/BxSikkthx4tpPHHkCG1G4RZO8aiC0L/s=; b=LLIa6fOHOkK+yflF57Vsmi 2OTuil/9w1KoTy1RLdC/PzreqREw9NzDeuqB1w/pPr+8giHgS64RYZuZXmdlWRqy pnwyY8qd7idSHdbP3cLtXpHNKhlfhIny1c5Blq0nXq1SbFfDUObqTiW8a9L1HXXT 2cgUBYyItYI/t6xPUp0opRqOHFxTtjMeMh7/1F2zN5Zr5ftBg+yKT1qUiMQLiE0T Z6UJb8Roaxy/mPmGZ9qVdxukvLo00BnLmjQln9jIRyGaER/QRehL4/TfTFNlqAud SHfnJy4CPS7VxLWIfo1hXow3oNFEJZXo/ZWgWtIJRBtJx0ldqe7ttrOoU4TLeFkA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrkeeggdeghecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuogfuuhhsphgvtghtkfhmghffohhmrghinhculdeftd dmnecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtreerreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdfo rghrtgcuuehrrggushhhrgiffdcuoehmrghrtgesmhgrrhgtsghrrggushhhrgifrdhnvg htqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhefggeehgffgjeethefhfeevgfffgfffleeuleef feeuffdugfekueeghfduhfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhgohhoghhlvg drtghomhdpmhgrrhgtsghrrggushhhrgifrdhnvghtpdhtfihithhtvghrrdgtohhmnecu vehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhgrrhgtse hmrghrtggsrhgrughshhgrfidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 67E5F4E01AC; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:22:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-554-g53a5f93b7d-fm-20210809.002-g53a5f93b Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <5f076522-9194-4847-bd7a-80335a53657d@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 11:22:20 +1000 From: "Marc Bradshaw" To: bimi@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=3a6c121eeb6246c6bdb62e8c0aeda6dd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Missing_viewport-fill_and_other_attribute?= =?utf-8?q?s_for_svg_element?= X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 01:23:01 -0000 --3a6c121eeb6246c6bdb62e8c0aeda6dd Content-Type: text/plain Sounds reasonable to me. On Thu, 12 Aug 2021, at 10:25 PM, Brotman, Alex wrote: > Hey folks, > > Not sure if others would have a comment on this. I've created this as: > > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/bimi/ticket/2 > > Seems like a reasonable request. Barring comments to the contrary, this would be in the next iteration of the RNC and draft. > > -- > Alex Brotman > Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy > Comcast > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Daniel Micay > > Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 2:58 AM > > To: draft-svg-tiny-ps-abrotman@ietf.org > > Subject: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for svg element > > > > The viewport-fill attribute and a few other rendering related attributes such as > > shape-rendering are only defined by the SVG Tiny Portable/Secure grammar for > > title and desc elements but not the svg element where they usually work with > > the full SVG 1.2 Tiny specification. > > > > It's possible to approximiate viewport-fill with a rect, but it isn't quite the same > > thing: > > > > > > > > Using viewport-fill="white" is much nicer since it will fill the whole viewport even > > if the aspect ratio is different. Google recommends using a solid background > > color for BIMI, where this subset of SVG is required, so it's annoying that the > > proper way to do it is missing: > > > > https://support.google.com/a/answer/10911027 > > > > The lack of these attributes also makes it harder than necessary to use this > > format since you need to strip out shape-rendering, etc. from an existing SVG > > Tiny 1.2 even though they're harmless. Rendering quality directives can be > > implemented as a no-op anyway. I don't really see a reason to forbid those, > > especially with it permitted for title/desc. > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > -- Marc Bradshaw marcbradshaw.net | @marcbradshaw --3a6c121eeb6246c6bdb62e8c0aeda6dd Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds reasonab= le to me.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2021, at 10:25 PM,= Brotman, Alex wrote:
Hey folks,

Not sure if others wo= uld have a comment on this.  I've created this as:

Seem= s like a reasonable request.  Barring comments to the contrary, thi= s would be in the next iteration of the RNC and draft.
--
Alex Brotman
Sr. Engineer, An= ti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
Comcast

=
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dani= el Micay <REDACTED>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2= 021 2:58 AM
=
> Subject: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for svg el= ement
>
> The viewport-fill attribute = and a few other rendering related attributes such as
> = shape-rendering are only defined by the SVG Tiny Portable/Secure grammar= for
> title and desc elements but not the svg element = where they usually work with
> the full SVG 1.2 Tiny sp= ecification.
>
> It's possible to appr= oximiate viewport-fill with a rect, but it isn't quite the same
> thing:
>
>   = ;  <rect width=3D"100%" height=3D"100%" fill=3D"white"/>
<= /div>
>
> Using viewport-fill=3D"white" is much = nicer since it will fill the whole viewport even
> if t= he aspect ratio is different. Google recommends using a solid background=
> color for BIMI, where this subset of SVG is required= , so it's annoying that the
> proper way to do it is mi= ssing:
>
>
> The lack of these attr= ibutes also makes it harder than necessary to use this
>= ; format since you need to strip out shape-rendering, etc. from an exist= ing SVG
> Tiny 1.2 even though they're harmless. Render= ing quality directives can be
> implemented as a no-op = anyway. I don't really see a reason to forbid those,
> = especially with it permitted for title/desc.

--
=
  Marc Bradshaw
  marcbradshaw.= net | @marcbradsha= w


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The suggestion fro= m the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be trust= ed unless utilizing DNSSEC. I'm not sure if the OP intended to also includ= e BIMI records as well. One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how SPF= /DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group. They have their own groups fo= r that. I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement for just the BIMI po= rtion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger companie= s that have the IT resources to undertake those endeavors. While I support= DNSSEC in general, I'm not sure if we want a hinderance to our goal of inc= reasing DMARC adoption. If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in the= Security Considerations. Any other feedback would be appreciated. -- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast From nobody Thu Aug 19 08:35:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F0F3A2061 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:35:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verizonmedia.com header.b=J0mlEjJu; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verizonmedia.com header.b=X5MU+Hvr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3zLdOUb5YoVS for ; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As you said, DMARC etc already have that "problem". The VMC already adds a significant hurdle. I don't see a point in artificially adding another one. Cheers, Marcel On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:25 AM Brotman, Alex wrote: > Hello folks, > > We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI. The suggestion > from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be > trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC. I'm not sure if the OP intended to also > include BIMI records as well. > > One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how > SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group. They have their own grou= ps > for that. I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement for just the BIM= I > portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger > companies that have the IT resources to undertake those endeavors. While= I > support DNSSEC in general, I'm not sure if we want a hinderance to our go= al > of increasing DMARC adoption. > > If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in > the Security Considerations. > > Any other feedback would be appreciated. > > -- > Alex Brotman > Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy > Comcast > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm= an_listinfo_bimi&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DsWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wVY= &r=3DVjhQB5e2ZWZy73VwtJ-BdXcqOJ8fnYu3OsnoFn3B7iM&m=3D-Zpj9fs7Z_HMeIkq4WvqHm= xYZOne30HXUaBhBNnsOok&s=3DkaZVYCWFK0iGZVqLF0thr2qHWbvQC5uQ0KG_YAaSvH8&e=3D > --000000000000dd951105c9eb4ad9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As you said, DMARC etc already have that "problem&quo= t;. The VMC already adds a significant hurdle. I don't see a point in a= rtificially=C2=A0adding another one.=C2=A0

Cheers,
=
Marcel=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:25 AM Brotman, Alex <Al= ex_Brotman=3D40comcast.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hello folks,

We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI.=C2=A0 The suggestio= n from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be = trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC.=C2=A0 I'm not sure if the OP intended = to also include BIMI records as well.

One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how= SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group.=C2=A0 They have their own = groups for that.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement f= or just the BIMI portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amon= gst larger companies that have the IT resources to undertake those endeavor= s.=C2=A0 While I support DNSSEC in general, I'm not sure if we want a h= inderance to our goal of increasing DMARC adoption.

If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in the= Security Considerations.

Any other feedback would be appreciated.

--
Alex Brotman
Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
Comcast

--
bimi mailing list
bimi@ietf.org
http= s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_lis= tinfo_bimi&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DsWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_w= VY&r=3DVjhQB5e2ZWZy73VwtJ-BdXcqOJ8fnYu3OsnoFn3B7iM&m=3D-Zpj9fs7Z_HM= eIkq4WvqHmxYZOne30HXUaBhBNnsOok&s=3DkaZVYCWFK0iGZVqLF0thr2qHWbvQC5uQ0KG= _YAaSvH8&e=3D
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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.499, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mailchimp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rCu1WJ826nA4 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A2793A21A1 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id w4so10846120ljh.13 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:56:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchimp.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g0/omh/zSI+ecIcXHx7Kj0MwHCT9lDaeflv/RZAVJf8=; b=foV2YnIHph22xjLanFrAwacSbAT7FxA3SNTp5Mm7ZnChNVNpHcck/c71bVXMxbud5U DSu8a4qOZUTgu+PRC1dOdNRENOMSzccPnojmXtc68EfoSdmlaw7gvHlicNzWds7Gu5bV 2GFi9VQPZ3fH66zbUUhDO/59oKOdLqI4pcGGg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g0/omh/zSI+ecIcXHx7Kj0MwHCT9lDaeflv/RZAVJf8=; b=j9UEIOR9DJlmIbu5Ltcx6F24XL1Jk9p+/D1E+wm30kU75qFlBuuscecR1FVstCTZDH iyRDqSQAQ92+di2DpCEZ5UZqglldKkPlO08ljX5geDPfclGakzA29zT8Qd1swL2RctZL On3hiWrjqWqsEuwJfbyi8IPH2rwll0TI8Lw8or5+815anAUmVFsUzp0Rm4OxF1X/RLN6 nTIpxW5XMBPejxQ68K4NI5u5Xj8oUT+rSs39eKZheTIk3pWnAhY9y2kDKJcSWVCmmQkg 2JIEXA3RCNjW92ehqgwICHt8ARVesna0Q0iWvoVGlj8SgLy9Zx2nEx4eOBn2J4u3WFt3 QTzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530HmfE0jOjjjSsZuwMth+XyynBGMkfB0kJ+WgcZ0K64E0pJltZs XS5dLb+Yn/1G6ApAZuUwPbhtcJ0SwY8/5lce9kqJhgjYm3Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyrWd0VHDgRxS1pqHRGARm+VbmYPYM6i0lEqe1B9oSb+reJnFymuJzvnBJj46tKe/7JPrOJfH2zEC/Hh8MjDa4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:994:: with SMTP id b20mr12558529ljq.117.1629388592630; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:56:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6725959A-75C7-4F64-BDEB-EF4180D165D4@proofpoint.com> In-Reply-To: <6725959A-75C7-4F64-BDEB-EF4180D165D4@proofpoint.com> From: Jonathan Leist Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 11:56:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: Trent Adams Cc: Marcel Becker , "Brotman, Alex" , "BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000043ebd205c9eb98c8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI) X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 15:59:11 -0000 --00000000000043ebd205c9eb98c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to concur with what's already been said. DNSSEC is really cool, but I doubt most small business customers have the resources to implement it. Adding it to the Security Considerations sounds ideal, but requiring it in the spec will probably just reduce BIMI, and therefore DMARC, adoption. On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 11:48 AM Trent Adams wrote: > > > It's totally reasonable to add a section to the "Security Considerations" > section addressing DNSSEC, but I don't think that the topic warrants more > than that within this spec. > > > > My $0.02, > > Trent > > > > > > *From: *bimi on behalf of Marcel Becker > > *Date: *Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:35 AM > *To: *"Brotman, Alex" > *Cc: *"BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" > *Subject: *Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI) > > > > As you said, DMARC etc already have that "problem". The VMC already adds = a > significant hurdle. I don't see a point in artificially adding another on= e. > > > > Cheers, > > Marcel > > > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:25 AM Brotman, Alex 40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hello folks, > > We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI. The suggestion > from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be > trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC. I'm not sure if the OP intended to also > include BIMI records as well. > > One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how > SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group. They have their own grou= ps > for that. I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement for just the BIM= I > portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger > companies that have the IT resources to undertake those endeavors. While= I > support DNSSEC in general, I'm not sure if we want a hinderance to our go= al > of increasing DMARC adoption. > > If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in > the Security Considerations. > > Any other feedback would be appreciated. > > -- > Alex Brotman > Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy > Comcast > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm= an_listinfo_bimi&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DsWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wVY= &r=3DVjhQB5e2ZWZy73VwtJ-BdXcqOJ8fnYu3OsnoFn3B7iM&m=3D-Zpj9fs7Z_HMeIkq4WvqHm= xYZOne30HXUaBhBNnsOok&s=3DkaZVYCWFK0iGZVqLF0thr2qHWbvQC5uQ0KG_YAaSvH8&e=3D > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > --=20 Jonathan Leist Senior Systems Engineer --00000000000043ebd205c9eb98c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just wanted to concur with what's already been said. D= NSSEC is really cool, but I doubt most small business customers have the re= sources to implement it. Adding it to the Security Considerations sounds id= eal, but requiring it in the spec will probably just reduce BIMI, and there= fore DMARC, adoption.

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 11:48 AM Trent Adams <= tadams=3D40proofpoint.co= m@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

It's totally reasonable to add a section to the = "Security Considerations" section addressing DNSSEC, but I don= 9;t think that the topic warrants more than that within this spec.

=C2=A0

My $0.02,

Trent

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: = bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Marcel Becker <marcel.becker=3D40verizonmedia.com@dmarc.ietf.= org>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:35 AM
To: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman=3D40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org= >
Cc: "BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" <bimi@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI)

=C2=A0

As you said, DMARC etc already have that "probl= em". The VMC already adds a significant hurdle. I don't see a poin= t in artificially=C2=A0adding another one.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Marcel=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:25 AM Brotman, Alex <Al= ex_Brotman=3D40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hello folks,

We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI.=C2=A0 The suggestio= n from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be = trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC.=C2=A0 I'm not sure if the OP intended = to also include BIMI records as well.

One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how= SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group.=C2=A0 They have their own = groups for that.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement f= or just the BIMI portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger companies that have the IT resources to = undertake those endeavors.=C2=A0 While I support DNSSEC in general, I'm= not sure if we want a hinderance to our goal of increasing DMARC adoption.=

If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in the= Security Considerations.

Any other feedback would be appreciated.

--
Alex Brotman
Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
Comcast

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Jonathan Leist
Senior Systems Engineer
=
--00000000000043ebd205c9eb98c8-- From nobody Thu Aug 19 09:07:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16913A06E7 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:07:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.499, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CfFkRN5zOJKK for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A20093A0652 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id x5so6502511ill.3 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:07:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Jmi5JbjX5cz98rFCY4W7d5XadOW9SOtCGIvOtzssasE=; b=JFrsxriF9/jzfARzSB95QBGXeuhmPzU/86V4McF1RcH0QBJF9vXJJTmb1IJscoGXjL 69tjkwOlAQFwSrtIEcwxGhlzvktXJQWMR/LWtZtV7JMaIyY4oxdcCmaZqFG/K1oaNMIU pvllQvoUpBFQjcA1Pz+eaMxYARO66Lai2UpirHUOhtdmy40gvZomhLVj8/iWiHjKqehv CKGi0uuQ/VpJkQYxfnrLrLvm56TiITfKdDQA6cqcmL5eSM8f1xOHwqZdN4OSsbKVIz9+ E+SlowdaFM94X1HinlSHlta5LPdrDI28jdAg83Y8NjKtwsdVyeJn/CYWpAVo5u8Wrqkc 2nOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Jmi5JbjX5cz98rFCY4W7d5XadOW9SOtCGIvOtzssasE=; b=MnA90q1CIJU21Ov9v1hZ1OxTtb0nsCwCDSERbAn7mrKecv21JXdal7pG4xboEy8vgc LRvKEMtR9X2/qAPnT+JmRU+NPjbea+kCZ3rFW1mlwlrlTuy6e5kS3baXC20BfaYA4DdC 2PpAEISLihcRmKaZUy1tSrwvk4eesdZrxcfvH3GIro2FsOhmUKkmkg7sSN5BMUhK+fBS ZGmDwlyTOPbrmLstRgdagaU8OzOqtT2DqVFwjgExi0K5zapJd3fnj06kJpNtH24m3akk Yveg8XK4y5Sgt0+7Siy9bcHZOAM3AyxIcw9ZGIoxmdDOjtWU5YGN+3ermbEELbisPPxJ 1O0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532jQYVE6vuSBj8Xz77A5ibZX0S4WjkpmtYuKWvj0KwiaRVNgHOw fS/u9DAjS4OWAgX2xbWAk4YQ7+fEj1s9d07EnyncQQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwwhuZ4+qSeoABQTU14Pr0HgCeieslQnU9mht5RMKt2HElu5RKKFGExyq3HKYlI1pcCOZTDzeHK+oSpu6/zpNM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:108:: with SMTP id t8mr3091588ilm.216.1629389246983; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:07:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6725959A-75C7-4F64-BDEB-EF4180D165D4@proofpoint.com> In-Reply-To: From: Wei Chuang Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:07:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Leist Cc: Trent Adams , "BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" , "Brotman, Alex" , Marcel Becker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000044e08705c9ebbf38" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI) X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 16:07:34 -0000 --00000000000044e08705c9ebbf38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed. While a cool idea in concept (and one to revisit someday), my understanding of DNSSEC is infrequently deployed because it's difficult to set up and maintain, and requiring it would be a huge barrier to entry for BIMI. There is arguably issues with its trust model as well. -Wei On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:59 AM Jonathan Leist wrote: > Just wanted to concur with what's already been said. DNSSEC is really > cool, but I doubt most small business customers have the resources to > implement it. Adding it to the Security Considerations sounds ideal, but > requiring it in the spec will probably just reduce BIMI, and therefore > DMARC, adoption. > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 11:48 AM Trent Adams 40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> >> >> It's totally reasonable to add a section to the "Security Considerations= " >> section addressing DNSSEC, but I don't think that the topic warrants mor= e >> than that within this spec. >> >> >> >> My $0.02, >> >> Trent >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *bimi on behalf of Marcel Becker >> >> *Date: *Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:35 AM >> *To: *"Brotman, Alex" >> *Cc: *"BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" >> *Subject: *Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI) >> >> >> >> As you said, DMARC etc already have that "problem". The VMC already adds >> a significant hurdle. I don't see a point in artificially adding another >> one. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Marcel >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:25 AM Brotman, Alex > 40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> Hello folks, >> >> We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI. The suggestion >> from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be >> trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC. I'm not sure if the OP intended to als= o >> include BIMI records as well. >> >> One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how >> SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group. They have their own gro= ups >> for that. I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement for just the BI= MI >> portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger >> companies that have the IT resources to undertake those endeavors. Whil= e I >> support DNSSEC in general, I'm not sure if we want a hinderance to our g= oal >> of increasing DMARC adoption. >> >> If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in >> the Security Considerations. >> >> Any other feedback would be appreciated. >> >> -- >> Alex Brotman >> Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy >> Comcast >> >> -- >> bimi mailing list >> bimi@ietf.org >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail= man_listinfo_bimi&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DsWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wV= Y&r=3DVjhQB5e2ZWZy73VwtJ-BdXcqOJ8fnYu3OsnoFn3B7iM&m=3D-Zpj9fs7Z_HMeIkq4WvqH= mxYZOne30HXUaBhBNnsOok&s=3DkaZVYCWFK0iGZVqLF0thr2qHWbvQC5uQ0KG_YAaSvH8&e=3D >> >> -- >> bimi mailing list >> bimi@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi >> > > > -- > Jonathan Leist > Senior Systems Engineer > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > --00000000000044e08705c9ebbf38 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agreed.=C2=A0 While a cool idea in concept (and one to rev= isit someday), my understanding of DNSSEC is infrequently deployed because = it's difficult to set up and maintain, and requiring it would be a huge= barrier to entry for BIMI.=C2=A0 There is arguably issues with its trust m= odel as well.
-Wei=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:59 AM Jonathan Leist <jo= nathan=3D40mailchimp.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Just wanted to concur with what's alread= y been said. DNSSEC is really cool, but I doubt most small business custome= rs have the resources to implement it. Adding it to the Security Considerat= ions sounds ideal, but requiring it in the spec will probably just reduce B= IMI, and therefore DMARC, adoption.

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 11:48 AM Tr= ent Adams <tadams=3D40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

It's totally reasonable to add a section to the = "Security Considerations" section addressing DNSSEC, but I don= 9;t think that the topic warrants more than that within this spec.

=C2=A0

My $0.02,

Trent

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: = bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Marcel Becker <marcel.becker=3D40verizonmedia.com@dmarc.ietf.= org>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:35 AM
To: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman=3D40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org= >
Cc: "BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" <bimi@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI)

=C2=A0

As you said, DMARC etc already have that "probl= em". The VMC already adds a significant hurdle. I don't see a poin= t in artificially=C2=A0adding another one.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Marcel=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:25 AM Brotman, Alex <Al= ex_Brotman=3D40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hello folks,

We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI.=C2=A0 The suggestio= n from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be = trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC.=C2=A0 I'm not sure if the OP intended = to also include BIMI records as well.

One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how= SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group.=C2=A0 They have their own = groups for that.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement f= or just the BIMI portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger companies that have the IT resources to = undertake those endeavors.=C2=A0 While I support DNSSEC in general, I'm= not sure if we want a hinderance to our goal of increasing DMARC adoption.=

If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in the= Security Considerations.

Any other feedback would be appreciated.

--
Alex Brotman
Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
Comcast

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Jonathan Leist
Senior Systems Engineer

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13:26:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Brotman, Alex" Cc: "BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000038f0a505c9ecd99a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI) X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 17:26:27 -0000 --00000000000038f0a505c9ecd99a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a DNS person who has done their share of DNSSEC, I agree with Alex. The tools are getting better, but not all managed dns vendors support dnssec yet (though Route53 now does!). Adding a note to Security Considerations makes sense. tim On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 12:29 PM Brotman, Alex wrote: > Some of us have had DNSSEC for a while :) The tools for DNSSEC have gotte= n > much better over the past few years. That said, I understand there=E2=80= =99s > consideration for projects, security, and risk. > > > > I=E2=80=99ve created this as https://trac.ietf.org/trac/bimi/ticket/3 > > > > -- > > Alex Brotman > > Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy > > Comcast > > > > *From:* Wei Chuang > *Sent:* Thursday, August 19, 2021 12:07 PM > *To:* Jonathan Leist > *Cc:* Trent Adams ; BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org) < > bimi@ietf.org>; Brotman, Alex ; Marcel Becker < > marcel.becker@verizonmedia.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI) > > > > Agreed. While a cool idea in concept (and one to revisit someday), my > understanding of DNSSEC is infrequently deployed because it's difficult t= o > set up and maintain, and requiring it would be a huge barrier to entry fo= r > BIMI. There is arguably issues with its trust model as well. > > -Wei > > > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:59 AM Jonathan Leist 40mailchimp.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Just wanted to concur with what's already been said. DNSSEC is really > cool, but I doubt most small business customers have the resources to > implement it. Adding it to the Security Considerations sounds ideal, but > requiring it in the spec will probably just reduce BIMI, and therefore > DMARC, adoption. > > > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 11:48 AM Trent Adams 40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > It's totally reasonable to add a section to the "Security Considerations" > section addressing DNSSEC, but I don't think that the topic warrants more > than that within this spec. > > > > My $0.02, > > Trent > > > > > > *From: *bimi on behalf of Marcel Becker > > *Date: *Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:35 AM > *To: *"Brotman, Alex" > *Cc: *"BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" > *Subject: *Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI) > > > > As you said, DMARC etc already have that "problem". The VMC already adds = a > significant hurdle. I don't see a point in artificially adding another on= e. > > > > Cheers, > > Marcel > > > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:25 AM Brotman, Alex 40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hello folks, > > We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI. The suggestion > from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be > trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC. I'm not sure if the OP intended to also > include BIMI records as well. > > One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how > SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group. They have their own grou= ps > for that. I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement for just the BIM= I > portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger > companies that have the IT resources to undertake those endeavors. While= I > support DNSSEC in general, I'm not sure if we want a hinderance to our go= al > of increasing DMARC adoption. > > If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in > the Security Considerations. > > Any other feedback would be appreciated. > > -- > Alex Brotman > Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy > Comcast > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm= an_listinfo_bimi&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DsWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wVY= &r=3DVjhQB5e2ZWZy73VwtJ-BdXcqOJ8fnYu3OsnoFn3B7iM&m=3D-Zpj9fs7Z_HMeIkq4WvqHm= xYZOne30HXUaBhBNnsOok&s=3DkaZVYCWFK0iGZVqLF0thr2qHWbvQC5uQ0KG_YAaSvH8&e=3D > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > > > > > -- > > Jonathan Leist > > Senior Systems Engineer > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > > > -- > bimi mailing list > bimi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi > --00000000000038f0a505c9ecd99a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As a DNS person who has done their share of DNSSEC, I agree with Alex.= =C2=A0 The tools are getting better, but not all managed dns vendors suppor= t dnssec yet (though Route53 now does!).=C2=A0=C2=A0

Adding a note to Security Considera= tions makes sense.=C2=A0

tim

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 12:29 PM Brotman, Alex <Ale= x_Brotman=3D40comcast.com@d= marc.ietf.org> wrote:

Some of us have had DNSSEC for a while :) The tools = for DNSSEC have gotten much better over the past few years. That said, I un= derstand there=E2=80=99s consideration for projects, security, and risk.=

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99ve created this as https://trac.ietf.org/trac/bimi/ticket/3

=C2=A0

--

Alex Brotman

Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy

Comcast

=C2=A0

From: Wei Chuang <weihaw=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.o= rg>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 12:07 PM
To: Jonathan Leist <jonathan@mailchimp.com>
Cc: Trent Adams <tadams@proofpoint.com>; BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org) <bimi@ietf.org>; Brotman, Alex <Alex_Brotman@com= cast.com>; Marcel Becker <marcel.becker@verizonmedia.com>
Subject: Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI)

=C2=A0

Agreed.=C2=A0 While a cool idea in concept (and one = to revisit someday), my understanding of DNSSEC is infrequently deployed be= cause it's difficult to set up and maintain, and requiring it would be = a huge barrier to entry for BIMI.=C2=A0 There is arguably issues with its trust model as well.

-Wei=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:59 AM Jonathan Leist <j= onathan=3D40mailchimp.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Just wanted to concur with what's already been s= aid. DNSSEC is really cool, but I doubt most small business customers have = the resources to implement it. Adding it to the Security Considerations sou= nds ideal, but requiring it in the spec will probably just reduce BIMI, and therefore DMARC, adoption. <= /u>

=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 11:48 AM Trent Adams <tad= ams=3D= 40proofpoint.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

It's totally reasonable to add a section to the = "Security Considerations" section addressing DNSSEC, but I don= 9;t think that the topic warrants more than that within this spec.

=C2=A0

My $0.02,

Trent

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Marcel Becker <marcel.becker=3D40verizonmedia.com@dmarc.ietf.= org>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:35 AM
To: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman=3D40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org= >
Cc: "BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" <bimi@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bimi] [E] DNSSC (& BIMI)

=C2=A0

As you said, DMARC etc already have that "probl= em". The VMC already adds a significant hurdle. I don't see a poin= t in artificially=C2=A0adding another one.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Marcel=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:25 AM Brotman, Alex <Al= ex_Brotman=3D40comcast.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hello folks,

We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI.=C2=A0 The suggestio= n from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be = trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC.=C2=A0 I'm not sure if the OP intended = to also include BIMI records as well.

One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how= SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group.=C2=A0 They have their own = groups for that.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement f= or just the BIMI portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger companies that have the IT resources to = undertake those endeavors.=C2=A0 While I support DNSSEC in general, I'm= not sure if we want a hinderance to our goal of increasing DMARC adoption.=

If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in the= Security Considerations.

Any other feedback would be appreciated.

--
Alex Brotman
Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
Comcast

--
bimi mailing list
bimi@ietf.org
https://urldefense.proo= fpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bimi&d=3D= DwICAg&c=3DsWW_bEwW_mLyN3Kx2v57Q8e-CRbmiT9yOhqES_g_wVY&r=3DVjhQB5e2= ZWZy73VwtJ-BdXcqOJ8fnYu3OsnoFn3B7iM&m=3D-Zpj9fs7Z_HMeIkq4WvqHmxYZOne30H= XUaBhBNnsOok&s=3DkaZVYCWFK0iGZVqLF0thr2qHWbvQC5uQ0KG_YAaSvH8&e=3D

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bi= mi



--

Jonathan Leist

Senior Systems Engineer

--
bimi mailing list
bimi@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bi= mi

--
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi
--00000000000038f0a505c9ecd99a-- From nobody Thu Aug 19 13:16:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707283A1D3F for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 13:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=zLBwXaTm; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=lNXYHfMZ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VgwJJopNH4wB for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 13:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 714283A1D37 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 13:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18711 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2021 20:16:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=4915.611ebc29.k2108; bh=u0xOeKMXaSxLSkdud6tk/uNHMTAorkTDXRqv4eYJ3Kk=; b=zLBwXaTmtVw9XLG0HY0PM7KYbAdTE4FeFcPU3gKvav93QXYQGeOlK4LkWeorPTShecr3xedMItND4UJFl7lwDcuovDSGj14BD4EnihwpEliyFsGlwH+J3qo/p0JjOUfes5cr9vEoeFAbuWCJSGbMf3ugA9PsnGdtd27BjXRDy9uDWf13dCyBdsXB0M7gaBcv1bctQ1gca4F174EDTJmpOjQ+PtjqRp6v5paxzGPa/gIiuNtOYikOhcgme1GRTGNDwM6KvcdRS8oj5MK9ckqZ/gTF/rtC4tUkC350/zMRK9HWvQ2JhYkGAw5Wzvi6he+sUNjhIKwPx5aBP/qkdN2bMg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=4915.611ebc29.k2108; bh=u0xOeKMXaSxLSkdud6tk/uNHMTAorkTDXRqv4eYJ3Kk=; b=lNXYHfMZCV5usduqgttwkbk6M4CvD7O4b/lcJmR71G6Q3WSPXhOc+4bTis6HjZPl6qAGxETOrkmMUD3zI6yNvzn4A2pDwFQw1mGfstCLgR9dAdQR9vSRqA3dNCvquFfXzslYpDy59YLCYCGMl6co+V53MpTlLZpzEgJEOsxDFvATKlhkkeFUqikLs4Jzrsqm0SyGLbc9yPquLcEDkwS318NNeU2OnNma+UWoIfvg7G4TYI5iByPWiMfWIiHmBb7Ztr9PHlKz4w5PTormVeVv6Ry58K17eAfGnrok49pKLDqJKcau9bhX/Gk/2aQw7TLqA+95QtDss7HSCgLIXQAqbQ== Received: from ary.local ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 19 Aug 2021 20:16:41 -0000 Received: by ary.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 747672691BFD; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 16:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: 19 Aug 2021 16:16:39 -0400 Message-Id: <20210819201640.747672691BFD@ary.local> From: "John Levine" To: bimi@ietf.org Cc: Alex_Brotman@comcast.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] DNSSC (& BIMI) X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 20:16:52 -0000 It appears that Brotman, Alex said: >Hello folks, > >We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI. The suggestion from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be trusted >unless utilizing DNSSEC. I'm not sure if the OP intended to also include BIMI records as well. If that's how he feels, he can't trust the MX or A or PTR records either, so it's baffling that he accepts any mail at all. While I think that DNSSEC is swell and use it on all of my domains where the registrar is cooperative, with modern DNS software the kind of attack that DNSSEC defends against is hard to do. The most likely scenario is a man-in-the-middle attack on your DNS cache. But if that's happening, BIMI is the least of your problems. I have reservations about BIMI but if your DNS is good enough to use DKIM and DMARC, it's good enough to use BIMI. R's, John From nobody Sun Aug 22 06:00:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3D43A25CB for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 06:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mailkit.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8YryYG6FPkgg for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 06:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mailkit.eu (mail.mailkit.eu [185.136.200.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E55763A25C9 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 06:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mailkit.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1293C20608 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 15:00:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailkit.eu Received: from mail.mailkit.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mailkit.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WYUhRtO3P2O1 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 15:00:04 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailkit.com; s=mk-2; t=1629637204; bh=EC6wg5ae82FzcpFYQL/ZRHiVYkV4U7W3Ic1W0BLXQ7w=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=nGYAQo9hgGRplolss2KiOPRwQ0DPS+iLytnunO5L0L4/LO14VX57ydIYw6rHj56fz jprbUycQEVq+KaVembvzJEne0sdWA9cbuWg7GSuVr7jyBsYda0rqycTXuCHZ6FQBmF aR53X8LVKfppNG1V/WZTeVqN90tICoN1+84dlY/sQ+w/l76GUaV9AIFS0KRlRWDibG bMR2PiASfggK7xRh9oV5fuMNM86d3c9ZGs9eK/6g7Zb8/3b5JTUgVnwK1g4EMjzVU/ n8Rx2c9lObsnjeSy70AOnASiU2HGCoU9Urtr2HLoAuWOHQBYZU54U83sQYSYHec5nv 3mS8t62cvKa+Q== To: bimi@ietf.org References: From: Jakub Olexa Organization: Mailkit Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 15:00:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4FEBCDDDCBF88D8E059C0CE1" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] DNSSC (& BIMI) X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 13:00:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4FEBCDDDCBF88D8E059C0CE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember bringing up this topic about 2 years ago and the consensus was that this would be another unnecessary hurdle. We use DNSSEC wherever possible and .cz is somewhat forcing DNSSEC adoption (839843 out of 1401762 domains have DNSSEC right now) this is very much an exception rather than a rule. Let's make a not of it, recommend it but I feel like with BIMI adoption needs to go first. Jakub Olexa Founder & CEO E-mail: jakub@mailkit.com Tel: +420 777 744 440 Mailkit - Closing the circle between Deliverability and Engagement On 19.08.2021 17:24, Brotman, Alex wrote: > Hello folks, > > We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI. The suggestion from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC. I'm not sure if the OP intended to also include BIMI records as well. > > One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group. They have their own groups for that. I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement for just the BIMI portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger companies that have the IT resources to undertake those endeavors. While I support DNSSEC in general, I'm not sure if we want a hinderance to our goal of increasing DMARC adoption. > > If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in the Security Considerations. > > Any other feedback would be appreciated. > > -- > Alex Brotman > Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy > Comcast > --------------4FEBCDDDCBF88D8E059C0CE1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I remember bringing up this topic about 2 years ago and the consensus was that this would be another unnecessary hurdle. We use DNSSEC wherever possible and .cz is somewhat forcing DNSSEC adoption (839843 out of 1401762 domains have DNSSEC right now) this is very much an exception rather than a rule. Let's make a not of it, recommend it but I feel like with BIMI adoption needs to go first.

Jakub Olexa
Founder & CEO
E-mail: jakub@mailkit.com
Tel: +420 777 744 440

Mailkit - Closing the circle between Deliverability and Engagement

On 19.08.2021 17:24, Brotman, Alex wrote:
Hello folks,

We received an inquiry about requiring DNSSEC for BIMI.  The suggestion from the inquiry is that the values returned by DKIM/SPF/DMARC cannot be trusted unless utilizing DNSSEC.  I'm not sure if the OP intended to also include BIMI records as well.

One issue I do see here is that we're not currently trying to alter how SPF/DKIM/DMARC work from within the BIMI group.  They have their own groups for that.   I suppose we could make DNSSEC a requirement for just the BIMI portion, though DNSSEC adoption is somewhat low, even amongst larger companies that have the IT resources to undertake those endeavors.  While I support DNSSEC in general, I'm not sure if we want a hinderance to our goal of increasing DMARC adoption.

If nothing else, we should probably have a section addressing DNSSEC in the Security Considerations.

Any other feedback would be appreciated.

--
Alex Brotman
Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
Comcast
--------------4FEBCDDDCBF88D8E059C0CE1-- From nobody Wed Aug 25 13:47:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131CD3A0AB5 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.092, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=marcbradshaw.net header.b=c+8noEOf; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=pqz4t5+v Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A2wYVuI21fZo for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6B243A0AB1 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3093200A0A for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:47:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= marcbradshaw.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=QfErGvc U3qQmqofU5DiAp5yHnTAteFjLs4Ll4tY6Gys=; b=c+8noEOfH3TzpbYxCZVjIVs pmqMsCn5tk4a7GiHUkBJVnRUmIiCBCoskoPd2N7PkCpM9HnpSE2M+VcLmg1Iz6zx tWZK56lHDT6X6iRNBYvKo2YJZnTdevl720OcEySkjo2ge4YEkCp9NI9jRJC63RgE C9eM2oCUPJR1QNwD11TupJ6GcQ7LaKoXgWyxhF+4SYvIJBrvLseQzHxpd7AWhiiB T5xIv40HFHGgV/XRbaHEUqPg2ZP8VydCS2yqSjqFc240s2iC9SSj9Y6YRoWzEh4Y cMX6HMQNrMZeIMQAxzI/QcP47LmjILNe9jDAJtOmmQS405vCmQq8xJ0tWESorrg= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=QfErGv cU3qQmqofU5DiAp5yHnTAteFjLs4Ll4tY6Gys=; b=pqz4t5+vcns4/ofgz48Quq m1KsNHoqwAaW3XNho5DVEWwSA9v+lIQunYBZmpiGZPuqinJseGtmyV7UEL6HOg2g kUNRxYC2TFIBmPbLhm29u9GX2SvXEpiU8vUPzCP85KIkJu+2X7ExByvM6WcvRFyT E00AhJujjDV3QcDnBA+SPiwmrnFunyLsFEs4PiEq1mmfD5tJaEl9YqKNrwWTjBhT 5L2qoTgruC9BaJGsIbhy9OeuXbilBJ2ePFREDE6deSGGpOvJePHbvAYPE7LC9m6E QwMf8D+BH4cv3xLKuKHWLin12CT9VwOT2DmmMF3RTC7cPATT2zH5QAeGu5HyPW1A == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddruddtledgudehgecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuogfuuhhsphgvtghtkfhmghffohhmrghinhculd eftddmnecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtreerreerjeenucfhrhhomhep fdforghrtgcuuehrrggushhhrgiffdcuoehmrghrtgesmhgrrhgtsghrrggushhhrgifrd hnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedukeekhfefjeeifedvieeufeelgfdviefhgeeu udejteetudffhffgjedtvdeugeenucffohhmrghinhepmhgrrhgtsghrrggushhhrgifrd hnvghtpdhtfihithhtvghrrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghr rghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhgrrhgtsehmrghrtggsrhgrughshhgrfidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 778C64E0479; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:47:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1125-g685cec594c-fm-20210825.001-g685cec59 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <63b37ac8-fb03-4547-97e7-b56c361723da@beta.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <10426c56-21b0-432c-a3e6-072b144e314f@mailkit.com> References: <2853d913-1700-4e97-b29a-0c8cae726616@mailkit.com> <10426c56-21b0-432c-a3e6-072b144e314f@mailkit.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 06:47:13 +1000 From: "Marc Bradshaw" To: bimi@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=7b50571c23ae4047bc461b79e5822890 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_Missing_viewport-fill_and_other_attribute?= =?utf-8?q?s_for_svg_element?= X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 20:47:42 -0000 --7b50571c23ae4047bc461b79e5822890 Content-Type: text/plain Hi Jakub, Is there any issue with text other than potentially inconsistent display? Is there an attack vector here? On Fri, 13 Aug 2021, at 6:02 AM, Jakub Olexa wrote: > I would suggest removing text support as text rendering of SVG may result in inconsistent display across devices/engines which in turn may result in logos not being true to the intended original. > -- Marc Bradshaw marcbradshaw.net | @marcbradshaw --7b50571c23ae4047bc461b79e5822890 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jakub,

Is there any issue with text other than potentia= lly inconsistent display? Is there an attack vector here?
=
On Fri, 13 Aug 2021, at 6:02 AM, Jakub Olexa wrote:
I would suggest = removing text support as text rendering of SVG may result in inconsisten= t display across devices/engines which in turn may result in logos not b= eing true to the intended original.


--
=

&n= bsp; Marc Bradshaw
  marcbradshaw.net | @marcbradshaw

--7b50571c23ae4047bc461b79e5822890-- From nobody Thu Aug 26 01:39:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9BD3A14E5 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2021 01:39:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mailkit.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KpH2Ok_iorOf for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2021 01:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mailkit.eu (mail.mailkit.eu [185.136.200.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A2FB3A174F for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2021 01:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mailkit.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFFD820F32 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:38:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailkit.eu Received: from mail.mailkit.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mailkit.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WDm8Xv-eaqk9 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:38:50 +0200 (CEST) To: bimi@ietf.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailkit.com; s=mk-2; t=1629967130; bh=LTUZRP135meBMGSdd9pmya0fP7F9tZmELTg/fRtvINI=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=kVOydnaMeu6ot1Bj2U8Dwlf1d7Aw9rL6iJ4kpEov9Ndcnuul9Spk+7DTmcakO60H5 PsYWN6wNpqRK3hd9GARND6J2djrcGQNN0xJwqh4fDiFUnMMz+Ew8snG5S8eKd/xaej UtSxs6KE2XPidpPLlu+OzWWtJhswBa/MqFO1BPBXOKdWyzK681iqTgsgZAz38LPAOE 1HE6iIZ3d/WmlmqFKzX533qQzYrMs/i4hie1QD1ktR2s87PynN5tzsJ/de7ovBENQ7 E0FqOR6xutOWqDd6fIQAlcnOkVC042wg3CFl93b4RUPc8uoPRjNO6N2fjDt8D/eMbc zASuZFMt4yWpg== References: <2853d913-1700-4e97-b29a-0c8cae726616@mailkit.com> <10426c56-21b0-432c-a3e6-072b144e314f@mailkit.com> <63b37ac8-fb03-4547-97e7-b56c361723da@beta.fastmail.com> From: Jakub Olexa Organization: Mailkit Message-ID: <19b7ecaa-087f-d8d3-917b-19379aad7649@mailkit.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:38:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63b37ac8-fb03-4547-97e7-b56c361723da@beta.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------690F7E07F54EEF7C09993CD4" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bimi] FW: Missing viewport-fill and other attributes for svg element X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:39:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------690F7E07F54EEF7C09993CD4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marc, I think the actual display inconsistency is the biggest issue from the=20 marketer's standpoint as the whole purpose of BIMI is showing brand logo = and VMC is all about authenticating that the logo matches the trademark. In theory I could make a text with characters in the SVG that could=20 change the display completely depending on the SVG renderer. Eg. the=20 text content which would read "Brand" in the system font would show up=20 as "Google" by creating custom characters for individual letters. Jakub Olexa Founder & CEO E-mail: jakub@mailkit.com Tel: +420 777 744 440 Mailkit - Closing the circle between Deliverability and Engagement=20 On 25.08.2021 22:47, Marc Bradshaw wrote: > Hi Jakub, > > Is there any issue with text other than potentially inconsistent=20 > display? Is there an attack vector here? > > On Fri, 13 Aug 2021, at 6:02 AM, Jakub Olexa wrote: >> I would suggest removing text support as text rendering of SVG may=20 >> result in inconsistent display across devices/engines which in turn=20 >> may result in logos not being true to the intended original. >> > > -- > > =09 > =C2=A0 Marc Bradshaw > marcbradshaw.net | @marcbradshaw=20 > > > > > --------------690F7E07F54EEF7C09993CD4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Marc,

I think the actual display inconsistency is the biggest issue from the marketer's standpoint as the whole purpose of BIMI is showing brand logo and VMC is all about authenticating that the logo matches the trademark.

In theory I could make a text with characters in the SVG that could change the display completely depending on the SVG renderer. Eg. the text content which would read "Brand" in the system font would show up as "Google" by creating custom characters for individual letters.

Jakub Olexa
= Founder & CEO
= E-mail: jakub= @mailkit.com
= Tel: +420 777 744 440

Mailkit - Closing the circle between Deliverability and Engagement

On 25.08.2021 22:47, Marc Bradshaw wrote: