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From: "Charles T. Miller" <carment5y@usa.com>
Subject: Been Chosen #3003
To: lis49r@fileserver.estop.co.kr
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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Wed Aug  8 20:05:12 2001
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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 02:05:59 +0200
Message-Id: <200108090005.CAA25826@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de>
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <schoenw@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de>
To: Les_Bell@3com.com
CC: bridge-mib@ietf.org
Subject: [Bridge-mib] smiv2 bridge mib smilint warnings
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I have looked at the smilint warning for the BRIDGE-MIB in
<draft-ietf-bridge-bridgemib-smiv2-00.txt>. Here is what smilint
0.2.16 says:

./BRIDGE-MIB:1086: implicit node definition
./BRIDGE-MIB:1240: group `dot1dTrapGroup' is unconditionally optional

Both messages are just warnings (level 6). So it is actually fine to
ignore them.

Anyway, the first warning says that the OID dot1dBridge.0 does not
have an associated descriptor. So rather than using

    ::= { dot1dBridge 0 1 }

and

    ::= { dot1dBridge 0 2 }

in the notification definitions, you could use

    ::= { dot1dNotification 1 }

and

    ::= { dot1dNotification 2 }

and adding

dot1dNotification  OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= { dot1dBridge 0 }

at the top of the MIB module. The second warning says that the
dot1dTrapGroup (perhaps this should be dot1dNotificationGroup?) is not
contained in any conformance group - not sure this is really what you
want.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder      Technical University Braunschweig
<schoenw@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de>  Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks
Phone: +49 531 391 3289    Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany
Fax:   +49 531 391 5936    <URL:http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/~schoenw/>



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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Thu Aug  9 05:42:35 2001
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Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 02:42:39 -0700
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <schoenw@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de>, Les_Bell@3com.com
From: "David T. Perkins" <dperkins@dsperkins.com>
Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] smiv2 bridge mib smilint warnings
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HI,

Note, object dot1dStaticAllowedToGoTo is an octet string with no size
specified, and, thus, can vary in size from 0 to 65535 octets. Since
this is a BIT string to identify ports, you can have from zero to
8*65535 (524280). Is this valid? Also, for support of port big numbers,
such as port 65535, the object will have length of 8192 octets. This
will probably be greater than the typical max message size. Is this
OK, or not realistic. (Note, I don't have a copy of the IEEE 802.1D-1990
document with me. It's at home, sorry, so I cannot check what it says
is the max port number.) In checking the max port number, I saw
that object dot1dBaseNumPorts has data type of Integer32, which means
it can have negative values and positive values as great as 2^31 -1.
Do you really support this?

The "no label on the "0" subidentifier" message from smilint is
"helpful", since the MIB parser in some "broken" management systems
cannot cope with a sub-identifier without a label. However, there
is no requirement in the SMI (nor in ASN.1) to have a label.
Note that it is valid to specify a label via the following:
  ::= { dot1dbridge dot1dNotification(0) 1 }
The SMI and ASN.1 says this is valid. Again, some broken MIB
parsers may not support it.

On the group dot1dTrapGroup not being in a compliance, this is
OK following the SMI rules. However, due to the requirements
for IETF standards-track documents, there must be no features
defined in RFCs that have no usage requirement, which is a
strange way of saying that for advancement to DRAFT, all features
must be shown to be useful, implemented, and interoperation
demonstrated. Thus, having a feature totally optional is
not a good thing. I suggest that it be specified in a separate
compliance specification that describes the situations where
it is appropriate.

At 02:05 AM 8/9/2001 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:

>I have looked at the smilint warning for the BRIDGE-MIB in
><draft-ietf-bridge-bridgemib-smiv2-00.txt>. Here is what smilint
>0.2.16 says:
>
>./BRIDGE-MIB:1086: implicit node definition
>./BRIDGE-MIB:1240: group `dot1dTrapGroup' is unconditionally optional
>
>Both messages are just warnings (level 6). So it is actually fine to
>ignore them.
>
>Anyway, the first warning says that the OID dot1dBridge.0 does not
>have an associated descriptor. So rather than using
>
>    ::= { dot1dBridge 0 1 }
>
>and
>
>    ::= { dot1dBridge 0 2 }
>
>in the notification definitions, you could use
>
>    ::= { dot1dNotification 1 }
>
>and
>
>    ::= { dot1dNotification 2 }
>
>and adding
>
>dot1dNotification  OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= { dot1dBridge 0 }
>
>at the top of the MIB module. The second warning says that the
>dot1dTrapGroup (perhaps this should be dot1dNotificationGroup?) is not
>contained in any conformance group - not sure this is really what you
>want.
>
>/js

Regards,
/david t. perkins


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	please ignore

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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 24 17:56:16 2001
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Subject: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IETF
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	Here's the first pass of the minutes for the IETF meeting.  Please
review carefully - in some places my notes were a little unintelligible.


/|/|ike


Meeting minutes for the Bridge MIB WG, 51st IETF

Tuesday August 7, 2001, 1700

1.)  Overview

	There are three drafts in progress.

	Bert W.:  Currently the chair is authoring documents.  Can we
	get co-editors?

	John Flick & K.C. Norseth volunteered.

	RFCs 1493, 1525, & 2674 need to progress.  RFCs 1493 & 1525
	are being updated to SMIv2.

	There are some new 802.1 MIBs

	Implementation reports are needed for RFCs:
		1493 - currently draft
		1525 - currently proposed
		2674 - currently proposed
	Please submit implkementation reports!  If you do not wish to
	submit your report to the group at large, you may submit
	privately to Les or Bert (addresses?)

2.)  SMIv2 Bridge MIB Draft

	draft-ietf-bridge-bridgemib-smiv2.txt

	This is a direct translation of RFC1493 into SMIv2.  However,
	a few issues have arisen:

		a.)  The object dot1dBasePortIfIndex should be of type
		InterfaceIndex, but is currently Integer32.

		Bert W.:  We can progress the IF MIB and use
		InterfaceIndex.

		Les:  We should also change "traps" to "notifications"
		in a comment.

		All: OK

		b.)  There are still problems with logical link
		aggregation.

		c.)  Is dot1dStdPortEnable redundant?

		Mike A.:  No, a port may not have a unique ifIndex.

		dot1dStdPortEnable remains.

		d.)  Some (many?) implementations permit spanning tree
		to be turned off an a per-port basis.  Should we
		standardize this?

		Many questions were raised about why this would be done
		and what the default behavior could be.  The group
		sought a rationale for doing this, but could not find
		one.  Therefore no action will be taken.

		e.)  Should we add an object to give the time of last
		change for dot1dBasePortTable?

		Mike A.:  Why make a change like this now?

		Bert W.:  We would have to recycle.

		Les:  Does anyone think that we should do this?

		(silence).

		f.)  Smilint complained about some notification
		definitions.

3.)  SMIv2 Source Routing Bridge MIB Draft

	Another direct translation of an SMIv1 MIB.

	No comments have been received yet.  Is anyone using the
	source routing bridge MIB anymore?

	Bert W.:  Why advance what nobody is currently implementing?

	(name?):  This is like the FDDI MIB, which needs no
	advancement.

4.)  802.1 Standards

	802.1w - Rapid reconfiguration
	802.1t - Update to 802.1d
	802.1u - Update to 802.1q
	802.1v - VLAN classification by port/protocol

	802.1 documents are available at
	http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/802/1/index.html,
	username: p8021
	password: go_wildcats

5.)  New MIBs

	Rapid Spanning Tree Protocol MIB (RSTPMIB):

		Involves changes to the bridge MIB.  We don't need to
		change the syntax, but there may be interoperability
		issues.

	U-bridge MIB:

		Only one new item.  This can be merged with 2674.

		John F.:  Can we merge all new MIBs with 2674?

		Mike A.:  If we merge them, will we just split them out
		again?

6.)  802.1 Standards, part 2

	Updates on 802.1t, 802.1w, 802.1u, 802.1v, and 802.1s (per-
	VLAN spanning trees)

	For 802.1x, IEEE wrote their own MIB - should we publish it as
	an informational RFC?

	Bert W.:  Do we want to?

	Mike A.:  We would then have all the bridge docs in one place.

	Les:  802.1x is not just a bridge.

	Bert W.:  Then we'd best take this to the mailing list.

7.)  Close

A.)  Action Items

	Mike A.:  Write up explanation of the port/ifIndex issue for
	the list.

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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 24 19:22:13 2001
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Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IETF
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At 04:46 PM 8/24/2001 -0500, Ayers, Mike wrote:
>                c.)  Is dot1dStdPortEnable redundant?
>
>                Mike A.:  No, a port may not have a unique ifIndex.
>
>                dot1dStdPortEnable remains.

Due to the rather poor scheduling of the bridge and entity working groups,
I wasn't able to discuss this in London.

Since most modern ethernet switches as opposed to old repeaters have
a one for one mapping from dot1d to ifIndex, the following situations arise
which I think lead to  implementation/interoperability problems:
 
Consider these two case:
     a) port both bridges and routes
     b) port bridges only

1) When ifAdminStatus is set to down, what should dot1dStpPortEnable? 
   Probably up (bridging could occur, but underlying port is shut down),
   
2) When dot1dStpPort is set to disabled, what should ifAdminStatus report?
   In case a), I can see this object as a means to only stop bridging on a port
   w/out affecting routing or ifAdminStatus. Yet most devices I've tested have this object
   shut down the entire port like ifAdminStatus for both bridging and routing
   and if I recall some of them set ifAdminStatus to down.

   In case b), the behavior I susepect is to only shut down bridging but not
   shut the link off as in the case of ethernet.

   Almost any implementation I can find, even old ones, make dot1dStpPortEnable      
   basically shut off the port (ethernet link led goes off).

My point is, I don't think this object has been either implemented properly
or described properly which is why I asked for it to be deprecated. I'm not
sure if any applications are using it either.

Comments welcome.

Regards,
Mike MacFaden


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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 24 19:28:34 2001
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To: bridge-mib@ietf.org
From: Michael MacFaden <mrm@riverstonenet.com>
Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IETF
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At 04:46 PM 8/24/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>d.)  Some (many?) implementations permit spanning tree
>                to be turned off an a per-port basis.  Should we
>                standardize this?
>
>                Many questions were raised about why this would be done
>                and what the default behavior could be.  The group
>                sought a rationale for doing this, but could not find
>                one.  Therefore no action will be taken.

I agree that any new features would recycle the MIB module and
in the interest of moving 1493 up in the standards process, no new
objects should be added in the SMIv2 rewrite. (Maybe an BRIDGE2-MIB)...

The simple rational is that many devices support this feature. 
Can't we just look at the many existing implementations and
compare them to see if they all behave the same way? Should be an
easy report to create, maybe Tolly or Meir has one already.

Mike


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> 		d.)  Some (many?) implementations permit spanning tree
> 		to be turned off an a per-port basis.  Should we
> 		standardize this?
> 
> 		Many questions were raised about why this would be done
> 		and what the default behavior could be.  The group
> 		sought a rationale for doing this, but could not find
> 		one.  Therefore no action will be taken.

Because of the unhappy scheduling conflict of the Bridge MIB meeting with
another meeting, I could not attend the meeting in London, but I have at
least one strong reason in favor of supporting spanning tree per port
activation / de-activation. The source of the information is from our
Technical Support, who brought the requirement to the attention of our
software group. Some customers using Novell clients asked for Spanning Tree
to be disabled per port, because on some Novell clients, the blocking state
of a port with Spanning Tree enabled and no station connected prevented the
clients to connect to their servers. It appears that the timers for the
learning mechanism to learn the address and allow the propagation of the
client messages to the Novell severs are longer than the timers that allow
the client to reach the conclusion that there is no server around, and no
appropriate re-trial mechanism is available.

This may be enough taking into account the popularity of the Novell
environments. In any case, as the activation / de-activation of spanning
tree per port seems to be quite wide-spread in implementations, I would
suggest that we reverse the decision taken in the meeting.

Regards,

Dan
   

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; d.)&nbsp; Some (many?) =
implementations permit spanning tree</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to be turned off an a =
per-port basis.&nbsp; Should we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; standardize this?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Many questions were raised =
about why this would be done</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and what the default =
behavior could be.&nbsp; The group</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sought a rationale for doing =
this, but could not find</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; one.&nbsp; Therefore no =
action will be taken.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Because of the unhappy scheduling conflict of the =
Bridge MIB meeting with another meeting, I could not attend the meeting =
in London, but I have at least one strong reason in favor of supporting =
spanning tree per port activation / de-activation. The source of the =
information is from our Technical Support, who brought the requirement =
to the attention of our software group. Some customers using Novell =
clients asked for Spanning Tree to be disabled per port, because on =
some Novell clients, the blocking state of a port with Spanning Tree =
enabled and no station connected prevented the clients to connect to =
their servers. It appears that the timers for the learning mechanism to =
learn the address and allow the propagation of the client messages to =
the Novell severs are longer than the timers that allow the client to =
reach the conclusion that there is no server around, and no appropriate =
re-trial mechanism is available.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This may be enough taking into account the popularity =
of the Novell environments. In any case, as the activation / =
de-activation of spanning tree per port seems to be quite wide-spread =
in implementations, I would suggest that we reverse the decision taken =
in the meeting.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regards,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Sun Aug 26 10:07:45 2001
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> 	For 802.1x, IEEE wrote their own MIB - should we publish it as
> 	an informational RFC?
> 
> 	Bert W.:  Do we want to?
> 
> 	Mike A.:  We would then have all the bridge docs in one place.
> 
> 	Les:  802.1x is not just a bridge.
> 
> 	Bert W.:  Then we'd best take this to the mailing list.
>

I support publishing the 802.1x as an Informational RFC, for the reason
mentioned by Mike A. in the meeting.

Regards,

Dan
 

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For 802.1x, IEEE wrote their own MIB - should we publish it as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an informational RFC?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bert W.:&nbsp; Do we want to?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mike A.:&nbsp; We would then have all the bridge docs in one place.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Les:&nbsp; 802.1x is not just a bridge.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bert W.:&nbsp; Then we'd best take this to the mailing list.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I support publishing the 802.1x as an Informational RFC, for the reason mentioned by Mike A. in the meeting.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Regards,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Dan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&nbsp;</FONT>
</P>

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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Tue Aug 28 06:22:35 2001
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Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st
	 IETF
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My understanding is that Edge Ports are there in the specification to deal with
just this issue.

Maurice





Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com> on 26/08/2001 16:02:33

Sent by:  Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>


To:   "'Ayers, Mike'" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>, "'bridge-mib @ietf.org'"
      <bridge-mib@ietf.org>
cc:    (Maurice Goodfellow/GB/3Com)
Subject:  [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IETF




>         d.)  Some (many?) implementations permit spanning tree
>         to be turned off an a per-port basis.  Should we
>         standardize this?
>
>         Many questions were raised about why this would be done
>         and what the default behavior could be.  The group
>         sought a rationale for doing this, but could not find
>         one.  Therefore no action will be taken.

Because of the unhappy scheduling conflict of the Bridge MIB meeting with
another meeting, I could not attend the meeting in London, but I have at
least one strong reason in favor of supporting spanning tree per port
activation / de-activation. The source of the information is from our
Technical Support, who brought the requirement to the attention of our
software group. Some customers using Novell clients asked for Spanning Tree
to be disabled per port, because on some Novell clients, the blocking state
of a port with Spanning Tree enabled and no station connected prevented the
clients to connect to their servers. It appears that the timers for the
learning mechanism to learn the address and allow the propagation of the
client messages to the Novell severs are longer than the timers that allow
the client to reach the conclusion that there is no server around, and no
appropriate re-trial mechanism is available.

This may be enough taking into account the popularity of the Novell
environments. In any case, as the activation / de-activation of spanning
tree per port seems to be quite wide-spread in implementations, I would
suggest that we reverse the decision taken in the meeting.

Regards,

Dan



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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Tue Aug 28 07:31:47 2001
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From: Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "'Maurice Goodfellow'" <Maurice_Goodfellow@eur.3com.com>
Cc: "'Ayers, Mike'" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>,
        "'bridge-mib@ietf.org'"
	 <bridge-mib@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IE
	TF
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:19:34 +0200
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Maurice,

The current definition of the edge ports is by two objects in the
dot1dStpExtPortTable which contains port-specific Rapid Spanning Tree
information. The issue that I am raising is not specific for Rapid Spanning
Tree environments. Do you suggest to take the objects referring to Edge
ports out of rtspConformance? This might work only if we place the objects
in a separate table, and actually it might be the right thing to do because
edge ports are defined in 802.1t, and not in 802.1w. 

Regards,

Dan




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maurice Goodfellow [mailto:Maurice_Goodfellow@eur.3com.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:26 PM
> To: Dan Romascanu
> Cc: 'Ayers, Mike'; 'bridge-mib@ietf.org'
> Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes 
> for the 51st IETF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding is that Edge Ports are there in the 
> specification to deal with
> just this issue.
> 
> Maurice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com> on 26/08/2001 16:02:33
> 
> Sent by:  Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>
> 
> 
> To:   "'Ayers, Mike'" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>, "'bridge-mib @ietf.org'"
>       <bridge-mib@ietf.org>
> cc:    (Maurice Goodfellow/GB/3Com)
> Subject:  [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for 
> the 51st IETF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >         d.)  Some (many?) implementations permit spanning tree
> >         to be turned off an a per-port basis.  Should we
> >         standardize this?
> >
> >         Many questions were raised about why this would be done
> >         and what the default behavior could be.  The group
> >         sought a rationale for doing this, but could not find
> >         one.  Therefore no action will be taken.
> 
> Because of the unhappy scheduling conflict of the Bridge MIB 
> meeting with
> another meeting, I could not attend the meeting in London, 
> but I have at
> least one strong reason in favor of supporting spanning tree per port
> activation / de-activation. The source of the information is from our
> Technical Support, who brought the requirement to the attention of our
> software group. Some customers using Novell clients asked for 
> Spanning Tree
> to be disabled per port, because on some Novell clients, the 
> blocking state
> of a port with Spanning Tree enabled and no station connected 
> prevented the
> clients to connect to their servers. It appears that the 
> timers for the
> learning mechanism to learn the address and allow the 
> propagation of the
> client messages to the Novell severs are longer than the 
> timers that allow
> the client to reach the conclusion that there is no server 
> around, and no
> appropriate re-trial mechanism is available.
> 
> This may be enough taking into account the popularity of the Novell
> environments. In any case, as the activation / de-activation 
> of spanning
> tree per port seems to be quite wide-spread in 
> implementations, I would
> suggest that we reverse the decision taken in the meeting.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 

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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-8">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2651.67">
<TITLE>RE: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st =
IETF</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Maurice,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The current definition of the edge ports is by two =
objects in the dot1dStpExtPortTable which contains port-specific Rapid =
Spanning Tree information. The issue that I am raising is not specific =
for Rapid Spanning Tree environments. Do you suggest to take the =
objects referring to Edge ports out of rtspConformance? This might work =
only if we place the objects in a separate table, and actually it might =
be the right thing to do because edge ports are defined in 802.1t, and =
not in 802.1w. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regards,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dan</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Maurice Goodfellow [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Maurice_Goodfellow@eur.3com.com">mailto:Maurice_Goodfello=
w@eur.3com.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:26 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: Dan Romascanu</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cc: 'Ayers, Mike'; 'bridge-mib@ietf.org'</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] =
Meeting minutes </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; for the 51st IETF</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; My understanding is that Edge Ports are there =
in the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; specification to deal with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; just this issue.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Maurice</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Dan Romascanu &lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt; on =
26/08/2001 16:02:33</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent by:&nbsp; Dan Romascanu =
&lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;'Ayers, Mike'&quot; =
&lt;Mike_Ayers@bmc.com&gt;, &quot;'bridge-mib @ietf.org'&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;bridge-mib@ietf.org&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (Maurice =
Goodfellow/GB/3Com)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject:&nbsp; [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] =
Meeting minutes for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the 51st IETF</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; d.)&nbsp; Some =
(many?) implementations permit spanning tree</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to be turned off =
an a per-port basis.&nbsp; Should we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; standardize =
this?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Many questions =
were raised about why this would be done</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and what the =
default behavior could be.&nbsp; The group</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sought a rationale =
for doing this, but could not find</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; one.&nbsp; =
Therefore no action will be taken.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Because of the unhappy scheduling conflict of =
the Bridge MIB </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; meeting with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; another meeting, I could not attend the meeting =
in London, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; but I have at</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; least one strong reason in favor of supporting =
spanning tree per port</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; activation / de-activation. The source of the =
information is from our</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Technical Support, who brought the requirement =
to the attention of our</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; software group. Some customers using Novell =
clients asked for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Spanning Tree</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to be disabled per port, because on some Novell =
clients, the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; blocking state</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of a port with Spanning Tree enabled and no =
station connected </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; prevented the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; clients to connect to their servers. It appears =
that the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; timers for the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; learning mechanism to learn the address and =
allow the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; propagation of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; client messages to the Novell severs are longer =
than the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; timers that allow</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the client to reach the conclusion that there =
is no server </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; around, and no</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; appropriate re-trial mechanism is =
available.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This may be enough taking into account the =
popularity of the Novell</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; environments. In any case, as the activation / =
de-activation </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of spanning</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; tree per port seems to be quite wide-spread in =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; implementations, I would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; suggest that we reverse the decision taken in =
the meeting.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Dan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Tue Aug 28 12:21:59 2001
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From: "Ayers, Mike" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>
To: "'bridge-mib@ietf.org'" <bridge-mib@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IE
	TF
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> From: Dan Romascanu [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 08:03 AM

> >               d.)  Some (many?) implementations permit 
> spanning tree 
> >               to be turned off an a per-port basis.  Should we 
> >               standardize this? 
> > 
> >               Many questions were raised about why this 
> would be done 
> >               and what the default behavior could be.  The group 
> >               sought a rationale for doing this, but could not find 
> >               one.  Therefore no action will be taken. 
> 
> Because of the unhappy scheduling conflict of the Bridge MIB 
> meeting with another meeting, I could not attend the meeting 
> in London, but I have at least one strong reason in favor of 
> supporting spanning tree per port activation / de-activation. 
> The source of the information is from our Technical Support, 
> who brought the requirement to the attention of our software 
> group. Some customers using Novell clients asked for Spanning 
> Tree to be disabled per port, because on some Novell clients, 
> the blocking state of a port with Spanning Tree enabled and 
> no station connected prevented the clients to connect to 
> their servers. It appears that the timers for the learning 
> mechanism to learn the address and allow the propagation of 
> the client messages to the Novell severs are longer than the 
> timers that allow the client to reach the conclusion that 
> there is no server around, and no appropriate re-trial 
> mechanism is available.

	Why can't this be done with dot1dStpPortEnable?

> This may be enough taking into account the popularity of the 
> Novell environments. In any case, as the activation / 
> de-activation of spanning tree per port seems to be quite 
> wide-spread in implementations, I would suggest that we 
> reverse the decision taken in the meeting.

	I don't know that it was a decision as such that we made, but we
failed to find a champion for the idea.  Tag - you're it!


/|/|ike

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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Tue Aug 28 17:39:00 2001
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From: "Ayers, Mike" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>
To: "'bridge-mib@ietf.org'" <bridge-mib@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IETF
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> From: Michael MacFaden [mailto:mrm@riverstonenet.com] 
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 04:19 PM
> 
> At 04:46 PM 8/24/2001 -0500, Ayers, Mike wrote:
> >                c.)  Is dot1dStdPortEnable redundant?
> >
> >                Mike A.:  No, a port may not have a unique ifIndex.
> >
> >                dot1dStdPortEnable remains.
> 
> Due to the rather poor scheduling of the bridge and entity 
> working groups,
> I wasn't able to discuss this in London.
> 
> Since most modern ethernet switches as opposed to old repeaters have
> a one for one mapping from dot1d to ifIndex,

	That's news to me.  I looked at one of our bridges, and it does seem
to create an internal VLAN, perhaps to this purpose, but I do not believe
that all equipment does this.

	In fact, when I was building a simulation network last year, I
discovered this to be (apparently) the minority case.  The two methods that
we confirmed as used in the field were:

	1.)  All ports bound to a single ifIndex, which represented the IP
address (and corresponding single ethernet address, realized on all ports)
of the bridge's management agent.

	2.)  A single listed ifIndex, the same as (1).  However, the
dot1dBasePortIfIndex objects would start at that object and increment,
pointing to nonexistent ifIndex entries.  This seemed (still seems) wierd,
but we saw it in use, apparently (I didn't personally confirm this one).

	Note: action item done!

> the following 
> situations arise
> which I think lead to  implementation/interoperability problems:
>  
> Consider these two case:
>      a) port both bridges and routes
>      b) port bridges only
> 
> 1) When ifAdminStatus is set to down, what should dot1dStpPortEnable? 
>    Probably up (bridging could occur, but underlying port is 
> shut down),

	Correction: the underlying port is fully operational, but no traffic
is being sent to it or received on it because the interface to it is shut
down.
  
> 2) When dot1dStpPort is set to disabled, what should 
> ifAdminStatus report?

	Up or down, whatever it is set to.  It will try and fail to pass
packets along and listen for packets that never arrive - the same thing
happens when you pull the cable.

>    In case a), I can see this object as a means to only stop 
> bridging on a port
>    w/out affecting routing or ifAdminStatus. Yet most devices 
> I've tested have this object
>    shut down the entire port like ifAdminStatus for both 
> bridging and routing
>    and if I recall some of them set ifAdminStatus to down.

	I don't see bad implementations as a case for removing an object.  I
concede, however, that a critical mass of bad implementations can render an
object useless - so I see (but not necessarily concede) your point for
depracation.

>    In case b), the behavior I susepect is to only shut down 
> bridging but not
>    shut the link off as in the case of ethernet.

	I would expect the link to be shut down by dot1dStpPortEnable in all
cases.

>    Almost any implementation I can find, even old ones, make 
> dot1dStpPortEnable      
>    basically shut off the port (ethernet link led goes off).

	Yep - that's what I expect.

> My point is, I don't think this object has been either 
> implemented properly
> or described properly which is why I asked for it to be 
> deprecated. I'm not
> sure if any applications are using it either.

	Ah, but we'd really need to confirm that applications are not using
- and that isn't really possible.


Unsolicited opinion:

	It seems that whenever we find ourselves deep in some muck or other
of confused, possibly incompatible implementations, we can look back and
find a lot of assumptions in our wake.  It can also be difficult, looking
back, to understand why we once felt that terms like "port", "interface",
and "enable" didn't need definitions.  Fun with myopia...


/|/|ike

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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Wed Aug 29 08:03:24 2001
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From: "Les Bell" <Les_Bell@eur.3com.com>
To: Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>
cc: "'bridge-mib@ietf.org'" <bridge-mib@ietf.org>
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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:01:51 +0100
Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st
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The Rapid Spanning Tree Protocol (RSTP) with "Edge Port" configuration
enabled for the Novell client ports will solve this problem, while still
allowing detection of loops created by users 'accidently' plugging
another switch into the port instead of a host.  RSTP allows an Edge
Port to go to the forwarding state immediately, blocking it again, if
required, as indicated by any received BPDUs on that port.  Legacy STP
implementations could mimic this behaviour.  This allows the Novell
client on an Edge Port to get a timely response, while still protecting
the network against inadvertent loops.

The problem with disabling STP/RSTP on a per port basis is how to define
the behaviour of the port when it is disabled.

    Does the port still act as a Bridge port?
    Or does it act as a Repeater port?

If you flood the STP BPDUs received on that port, you cannot rely on
simple hardware flooding, as this will be limited to the VLAN defined by
the PVID for the port, as it is an untagged frame, and some loops will
not be detected.

If you filter the STP BPDUs received on that port, as a Bridge is
supposed to, loops will not be detected.

Some (third party) hardware architectures that I have come across do not
allow individual addresses from the Bridge reserved Address range to be
enabled (forwarded to the CPU only) and disabled (flooded, like user
data frames, within VLAN constraints) independently.  Thus disabling STP
blindly will cause problems for other protocols.
  * GVRP BPDUs, like STP and RSTP BPDUs would need to be flooded across
    all VLANs.
  * GMRP BPDUs would need to be flooded within the VLAN constraints.
  * If we flood LACPDUs we will make a full duplex port behave like a
    shared media, which will cause constant churning and LACP will not
    enable the port.
  * 802.3 Pause frames should never be flooded.
  * Port Access Entity (PAE) control frames for Network Login should
    never be flooded.

I guess there are other aspects of the Bridge behaviour that need to be
considered that I have not listed.

In conclusion, I would suggest the Edge Port behaviour defined in 802.1t
and 802.1w is a simple solution, which has fewer implications on other
aspects of Bridge behaviour.

Les...





Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com> on 26/08/2001 16:02:33

Sent by:  Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>


To:   "'Ayers, Mike'" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>, "'bridge-mib @ietf.org'"
      <bridge-mib@ietf.org>
cc:    (Les Bell/GB/3Com)
Subject:  [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IETF




>         d.)  Some (many?) implementations permit spanning tree
>         to be turned off an a per-port basis.  Should we
>         standardize this?
>
>         Many questions were raised about why this would be done
>         and what the default behavior could be.  The group
>         sought a rationale for doing this, but could not find
>         one.  Therefore no action will be taken.

Because of the unhappy scheduling conflict of the Bridge MIB meeting with
another meeting, I could not attend the meeting in London, but I have at
least one strong reason in favor of supporting spanning tree per port
activation / de-activation. The source of the information is from our
Technical Support, who brought the requirement to the attention of our
software group. Some customers using Novell clients asked for Spanning Tree
to be disabled per port, because on some Novell clients, the blocking state
of a port with Spanning Tree enabled and no station connected prevented the
clients to connect to their servers. It appears that the timers for the
learning mechanism to learn the address and allow the propagation of the
client messages to the Novell severs are longer than the timers that allow
the client to reach the conclusion that there is no server around, and no
appropriate re-trial mechanism is available.

This may be enough taking into account the popularity of the Novell
environments. In any case, as the activation / de-activation of spanning
tree per port seems to be quite wide-spread in implementations, I would
suggest that we reverse the decision taken in the meeting.

Regards,

Dan



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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Wed Aug 29 08:07:23 2001
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From: "Les Bell" <Les_Bell@eur.3com.com>
To: Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st
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My preference is to publish this as an Informational RFC, but we must ensure
that the IEEE 802.1X document is referenced as the definitive source for this
MIB and to re-publish it if IEEE 802.1 update the MIB in future revisions of
that standard.

Les...





Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com> on 26/08/2001 16:05:11

Sent by:  Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>


To:   "'Ayers, Mike'" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>, "'bridge-mib @ietf.org'"
      <bridge-mib@ietf.org>
cc:    (Les Bell/GB/3Com)
Subject:  [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st IETF




>    For 802.1x, IEEE wrote their own MIB - should we publish it as
>    an informational RFC?
>
>    Bert W.:  Do we want to?
>
>    Mike A.:  We would then have all the bridge docs in one place.
>
>    Les:  802.1x is not just a bridge.
>
>    Bert W.:  Then we'd best take this to the mailing list.
>

I support publishing the 802.1x as an Informational RFC, for the reason
mentioned by Mike A. in the meeting.

Regards,

Dan



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T05UPg0KPEJSPjxGT05UIFNJWkU9Mj4mbmJzcDs8L0ZPTlQ+DQo8L1A+DQoNCjwvQk9EWT4NCjwv
SFRNTD4NCg==

--0__=N9sqEBR2MSflpasZEBn3az6DOxGKx3gHF0Ls8pbYCPAZzuOZJNl6wwDp--


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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Wed Aug 29 14:20:16 2001
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From: Michael MacFaden <mrm@riverstonenet.com>
Subject: Re: [Bridge-mib] RE: [Bridge-mib] Meeting minutes for the 51st
  IETF
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Les writes:
>The problem with disabling STP/RSTP on a per port basis is how to define
>the behaviour of the port when it is disabled.
>
>    Does the port still act as a Bridge port?
>   Or does it act as a Repeater port?

Can you be more specific? I assume these definitions:
A repeater is a physical  layer function that just amplifies a signal. 
A bridge port parses the frame and resends it either cut-through
or store/forward to one or more ports. 
I don't see how turning off stp would change this physical port behavior.

>If you filter the STP BPDUs received on that port, as a Bridge is
>supposed to, loops will not be detected.

Why not let the operator decide if that is going to be a problem or
not. Also, please consider these cases:

1) Take two physical ports that are bridging.
Next combine them into a Link Aggregation.
What should the effect be on the existing instances in the
dot1dBasePortTable? (Keep or remove?)

2) Take a port that bridges traffic within its assigned vlan.
Change it to protocol based vlan and possibly add an
ip interface to route to other vlans as is possible with
most l2/l3 switch routers.  The switch still bridges traffic
within the vlan but STP may or may not be running. Basic
frame inspection, learning, forwarding and flooding still work
without stp.

Should the port continue to exist in the dot1dBasePorTable
if it is capable of bridging but not currently running STP
even though it still bridges IP packets that transit (src/dest)
on the subnet/vlan set of ports found on that bridge?

Turning on/off  stp on a given port/interface should be
a standard feature just like all other control
protocols in use: ospf, isis, bgp. Even if it causes loops.


Mike

At 01:01 PM 8/29/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>In conclusion, I would suggest the Edge Port behaviour defined in 802.1t
>and 802.1w is a simple solution, which has fewer implications on other
>aspects of Bridge behaviour.


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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 31 02:36:42 2001
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From: Mike MacFaden <mrm@riverstonenet.com>
To: bridge-mib@ietf.org
Reply-to: mrm@riverstonenet.com
Subject: [Bridge-mib] RFC 1473 dot1dStpPortEnable is not well specified
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Folks,

I did some testing to see if dot1dStpPortEnable is well 
specified or not. 

I choose the following set of widely available, modular, well known
layer 2 bridging platforms with layer 3 capability that have
dot1dStpPortEnable and ifAdminStatus objects.

The sysDescr's from the systems tested: 
   Cisco Systems WS-C6509-NEB Cisco Catalyst Operating System Software, Version 6.1(1d)
   Extreme MSM64 - Version 6.1.7 (Build 9) by Release_Master  Thu 04/05/2001  3:40p
   Foundry Networks, Inc. Router, IronWare Version 07.2.02T51 
   Riverstone Networks Firmware Version: 7.0.0.1

Cisco 6509:
   1. What is in dot1dBasePortTable?
       By default, all ethernet ports included.
       dot1dBasePortIfIndex points to unique ifIndexes, one per port.
       ifTable has vlans (contrary to rfc 2674, populate the ifTable as propVirtual)
       ifDescr.61 = VLAN 1002.  No rfc 2674 dot1q tables
       GigE ports ifType contrary to rfc 2665,  set ifType to 117 instead of 6.
       no ifStackTable

   2. What does ifAdminStatus affect when set to 2(down)?
      a) Physical link is disabled (LED turns yellow)
      b) dot1dStpPortEnable is set to disabled(2).

   3. What does dot1dStpPortEnable affect when set to 2(disable)
      Behaves the exactly same behavior as ifAdminStatus, 
      ifAdminStatus is affected.

I ran these set/get operations after dumping
the ifTable, ifStackTable (if any) and dot1dBasePortTable to determine
indexing for a given ethernet port to twiddle with.

Detail for cisco cat:
% setany box ifAdminStatus.260 1
ifAdminStatus.260 = up(1)
% getmany ...
ifAdminStatus.260 = up(1)
ifOperStatus.260 = up(1)
dot1dStpPortEnable.228 = enabled(1)
ifName.260 = 4/36

% setany box dot1dStpPortEnable.228 2
dot1dStpPortEnable.228 = disabled(2)
% getmany ...
ifAdminStatus.260 = down(2)
ifOperStatus.260 = down(2)
dot1dStpPortEnable.228 = disabled(2)
ifName.260 = 4/36

Extreme: 
   1. What is in dot1dBasePortTable?
       All ethernet ports that are actually running stp are included.
       dot1dBasePortIfIndex points to unique ifIndexes, one per port.
       Vlans (contrary to rfc 2674, populate the ifTable as propVirtual)
        ifDescr.20002 = VLAN 00001 (Default) 
       ifName reported in ifXtable is not the same as what one uses in CLI 1/1 vs 1:1
       ifStackTable malformed per rfc2863, missing terminator "0" entries like :
       ifStackStatus.0.x=active, 
       ifStackTable used to relate ports to vlans (vlans being the lower layer). 
       No rfc 2674 dot1q tables.
       GigE/FastE ports ifType all are ifType 6 per rfc 2665.

   2. What does ifAdminStatus affect when set to 2(down)?
      a) Physical link is slowly blinks a green led, remote
         end of the fast ethernet link reports link as physically up
      b) dot1dStpPortEnable is not affected

   3. What does dot1dStpPortEnable affect when set to 2(disable)
      Turns of STP per port. ifAdminStatus not affected
      CLI shows stp per port as ENABLED | DISABLED
       * MSM64:32 # show stpd s0 ports 3:25
       Stpd: s0        Port: 3:25      PortId: 2099    Stp: DISABLED   Path Cost: 19
                                                       -------------
      The Extreme manual is very clear about what it means to turn off STP
      per port:  port put into forwarding state, BPDU's received are disregarded
      cli cmd: disable stp port <port-spec>
      
Foundry:
   1. What is in dot1dBasePortTable?
      All ethernet ports included.
      dot1dBasePortIfIndex points to unique ifIndexes, one per port.
      No ifXTable, no ifStackTable, probably an enterprise mib mod relates ports/vlans
      GigE/FE ports ifType all are ifType 7, contrary to rfc 2665.
      Complies with rfc 2674, No Vlans in ifTable

   2. What does ifAdminStatus affect when set to 2(down)?
      a) Physical link is shutdown, link LED powered off
         end of the fast ethernet link reports link as physically down
      b) dot1dStpPortEnable is not affected

   3. What does dot1dStpPortEnable affect when set to 2(disable)
      Turns of STP per port. ifAdminStatus is no affected
      The CLI shows stp per port as ON | OFF
         RT-NetIron Router#show int e8/1
         FastEthernet8/1 is up, line protocol is up
         Hardware is FastEthernet, address is 0004.8016.80e0 (bia 0004.8016.80e0)
         Configured speed auto, actual 100Mbit, configured duplex fdx, actual fdx
         Member of L2 VLAN ID 1, port is untagged, port state is FORWARDING
         STP configured to ON, priority is level0, flow control enabled
         --------------------

Riverstone:
   1. What is in dot1dBasePortTable?
       All ethernet ports included.
       dot1dBasePortIfIndex points to unique ifIndexes, one per port.
       Vlans (contrary to rfc 2674, populate the ifTable as propVirtual),
       Ports are related to vlans via a) ifStackTable, b) dot1qVlanCurrent(Static)Table
       ifDescr.19 = VLAN: DEFAULT, ifType ifType.19 = l2vlan(135)
       ports being the lower layer.
       GigE/FastE ports ifType all are ifType 6 per rfc 2665.

   2. What does ifAdminStatus affect when set to 2(down)?
      a) Physical link is LED stays up
         end of the fast ethernet link reports link as physically up
      b) dot1dStpPortEnable is not affected

   3. What does dot1dStpPortEnable affect when set to 2(disable)
       Returns noSuch, agent-cap mib module states does not support sets on this object.
       CLI allows one to turn on/off STP per port via the cmd:
       stp enable port <spec> 
       ifAdminStatus is not affected


So I strongly suggest the revised BRIDGE-MIB receive more than
just and SMIv2 facelift. Some text is needed to explain what the objects
should really be doing and future mib modules should standardize what 
the marketplace has generally implemented.

Mike MacFaden



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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 31 13:28:33 2001
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From: "Ayers, Mike" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>
To: bridge-mib@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Bridge-mib] RFC 1473 dot1dStpPortEnable is not well specifie
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> From: Mike MacFaden [mailto:mrm@riverstonenet.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 11:37 PM

> So I strongly suggest the revised BRIDGE-MIB receive more than
> just and SMIv2 facelift. Some text is needed to explain what 
> the objects
> should really be doing and future mib modules should standardize what 
> the marketplace has generally implemented.

	I agree.  However, I don't think we can standardize what the
marketplace has implemented when their implementations are so far apart.


/|/|ike

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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 31 14:17:53 2001
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From: Michael MacFaden <mrm@riverstonenet.com>
Subject: RE: [Bridge-mib] RFC 1473 dot1dStpPortEnable is not well
  specifie d
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At 12:29 PM 8/31/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>I agree.  However, I don't think we can standardize what the
>marketplace has implemented when their implementations are so far apart.

I don't think from the data I collected they were "far apart" actually.
Can you elaborate? 

Three of the four brouters allow for STP to be turned off. The behavior
for what happens when STP is turned of is the same for all three.
dot1dStpPortEnable should be clarified as to what the relationship
with ifAdminStatus is in various configurations.
Port Membership in dot1dBasePortTable also needs to be clarified.

The ifAdminStatus behavior could easily be resolved. There really is *one* right
answer for turning ifAdminStatus to down(2) for an ifType of 6. 
Updates to RFC 2665 should clarify that behavior.

Mike MacFaden


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From bridge-mib-admin@ietf.org  Fri Aug 31 14:51:45 2001
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From: "Ayers, Mike" <Mike_Ayers@bmc.com>
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Subject: RE: [Bridge-mib] RFC 1473 dot1dStpPortEnable is not well specifie
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> From: Michael MacFaden [mailto:mrm@riverstonenet.com] 
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:18 AM

> At 12:29 PM 8/31/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >I agree.  However, I don't think we can standardize what the
> >marketplace has implemented when their implementations are 
> so far apart.
> 
> I don't think from the data I collected they were "far apart" 
> actually.
> Can you elaborate? 
> 
> Three of the four brouters allow for STP to be turned off. 

	Not really.  Two use dot1dStpPortEnable to turn off STP.  One uses
it to turn off the port.  One does not permit its use.  That seems far apart
to me, since I do not interpret shutting down the port as turning off STP,
even though that is a side effect of it.

> The behavior
> for what happens when STP is turned of is the same for all three.
> dot1dStpPortEnable should be clarified as to what the relationship
> with ifAdminStatus is in various configurations.

	Given the evidence, I must agree that this would be necessary,
although without evidence, I would not have thought so.

> Port Membership in dot1dBasePortTable also needs to be clarified.

	Please elaborate.

> The ifAdminStatus behavior could easily be resolved. There 
> really is *one* right
> answer for turning ifAdminStatus to down(2) for an ifType of 6. 

	Agreed, and, I think, never in question.


/|/|ike

> Updates to RFC 2665 should clarify that behavior.
> 
> Mike MacFaden
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Bridge-mib@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bridge-mib
> 

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