From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Mon Mar  1 07:41:02 2004
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Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 05:28:51 -0700
From: "Preston Stephenson" <PStephenson@gw.novell.com>
To: <ietf-calendar@imc.org>
Subject: Re: CAP BEEP profile
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I was talking about starting a BEEP channel for the CAP protocol.
As I understand the Greeting message, the client sends an empty
greeting and the server sends its greeting with the profiles it can
support.

The exchanged we enforce as a server is to:
1) Send the greeting message.
    Depending on the settings on the server, we either reply saying we
support SASL TLS only or SASL TLS and SASL PLAIN profiles.
2) If the server only returns the SASL TLS, the client has to start the
SASL TLS channel..
    After the client successfully starts the SASL TLS profile, the
server will allow the SASL PLAIN profile.
3) After the client successfully starts the SASL PLAIN channel, the
server will allow the CAP profile.
4) The client will then start the CAP profile.
     Only after the CAP profile channel successfully starts, do we
allow CAP messages.

The other implementation was Novell's NetMail client trying to talk to
Novell's GroupWise server.

Thanks.
Preston

>>> Doug@royer.com 2/28/2004 12:14:36 PM >>>


Preston Stephenson wrote:

>I posted a query about the CAP BEEP profile back in October but
didn't
>get a response.
>I went ahead and put a bug in bugzilla (657)
>It's the only thing I remember that I need resolved.
>
>Thanks.
>Preston
>
>  
>
>>Sorry if I missed this.
>>
>>Is there an example of starting the CAP BEEP profile?
>>
Did you mean starting a new channel? (As you have a <start> message
below)

Or did to mean to show a <greeting> message? (you said starting the CAP

BEEP profile).

As I understand BEEP, you send the CAP uri in the greeting message
and then the authentication profile in the start messages.

What was the 'other' format you tested against?

>>When I initially wrote my CAP server, I think I patterned my start
>>exchange after the SASL profiles. Thus:
>>
>>C: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
>>C:
>>C: <start number='3'>
>>C:   <profile uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'/>
>>C: </start
>>
>>S: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
>>S:
>>S: <profile uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'>
>>S:   <![CDATA[<blob status='complete'/>]]>
>>S: </profile>
>>
>>In section 12.1 BEEP Profile Registration, it talks about the
>>    
>>
>initial
>  
>
>>message must be the GET-CAPABILITY command.
>>It doesn't talk about the BEEP Start message exchange.
>>
>>In section 12.1 there is also a "URI[10]" reference. The "[10]"
>>reference seems to have been taken from rfc3080.
>>The reference should probably be changed to "[URI]" to be
>>    
>>
>consistent.
>  
>
>>Thanks.
>>Preston
>>    
>>

-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com 
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards





From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Mon Mar  1 08:07:19 2004
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From: "Preston Stephenson" <PStephenson@gw.novell.com>
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Subject: Re: CAP BEEP profile
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Just one more comment.

In section 2.4 of the BEEP spec (RFC 3080) it says:
   When a BEEP session is established, each BEEP peer signifies its
   availability by immediately sending a positive reply with a message
   number of zero on channel zero that contains a "greeting" element,
   e.g.,

       L: <wait for incoming connection>
       I: <open connection>
       L: RPY 0 0 . 0 110
       L: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
       L:
       L: <greeting>
       L:    <profile uri='http://iana.org/beep/TLS' />
       L: </greeting>
       L: END
       I: RPY 0 0 . 0 52
       I: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
       I:
       I: <greeting />
       I: END

   Alternatively, if the BEEP peer acting in the listening role is
   unavailable, it sends a negative reply, e.g.,

       L: <wait for incoming connection>
       I: <open connection>
       L: ERR 0 0 . 0 60
       L: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
       L:
       L: <error code='421' />
       L: END
       I: RPY 0 0 . 0 52
       I: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
       I:
       I: <greeting />
       I: END
       I: <close connection>
       L: <close connection>
       L: <wait for next connection>

   and the "greeting" element sent by the BEEP peer acting in the
   initiating role is ignored.  It is recommended that a diagnostic
   entry be logged by both BEEP peers.

It that section it says the the server ("Listerner") ignores the
greeting sent be the client ("Initiator"). Am I missing something?

Thanks.
Preston



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Preston Stephenson wrote:

>The other implementation was Novell's NetMail client trying to talk to
>Novell's GroupWise server.
>
Sorry, I mean: "HOW" are the two implementations different?

>
>>>      
>>>
>Did you mean starting a new channel? (As you have a <start> message
>below)
>
>Or did to mean to show a <greeting> message? (you said starting the CAP
>
>BEEP profile).
>
>As I understand BEEP, you send the CAP uri in the greeting message
>and then the authentication profile in the start messages.
>
>What was the 'other' format you tested against?
>
>  
>
-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards



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Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:45:39 -0700
From: "Preston Stephenson" <PStephenson@gw.novell.com>
To: <ietf-calendar@imc.org>
Subject: Re: CAP BEEP profile
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I think it was when the client sent the start message for the cap
profile channel, it wasn't expecting a response from the server.
It would want to send the start message, then immediately start sending
CAP messages.
It didn't know how to handle the response from the start message.

C: Content-Type: application/beep+XL
C:
C: <start number='3'>
C:   <profile Uri='HTTP://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'/>
C: </start

( the client wasn't able to handle this response from the server)
S: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
S:
S: <profile uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'>
S:   <![CDATA[<blob status='complete'/>]]>
S: </profile>


Is that what you are asking?
Preston

>>> Doug@royer.com 3/1/2004 11:20:12 AM >>>


Preston Stephenson wrote:

>The other implementation was Novell's NetMail client trying to talk
to
>Novell's GroupWise server.
>
Sorry, I mean: "HOW" are the two implementations different?

>
>>>      
>>>
>Did you mean starting a new channel? (As you have a <start> message
>below)
>
>Or did to mean to show a <greeting> message? (you said starting the
CAP
>
>BEEP profile).
>
>As I understand BEEP, you send the CAP uri in the greeting message
>and then the authentication profile in the start messages.
>
>What was the 'other' format you tested against?
>
>  
>
-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com 
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards





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Yes. I thought you were saying that the profile information
was being sent in different sequences or something by
the two implementations.

So far I have not tried to interoperate with any other CAP
implementation. And I would not call myself a BEEP expert.

So do you have proposed text to solve the cap-bug you filed? :-)
I am still trying to figure out if I got BEEP right.


Preston Stephenson wrote:

>I think it was when the client sent the start message for the cap
>profile channel, it wasn't expecting a response from the server.
>It would want to send the start message, then immediately start sending
>CAP messages.
>It didn't know how to handle the response from the start message.
>
>C: Content-Type: application/beep+XL
>C:
>C: <start number='3'>
>C:   <profile Uri='HTTP://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'/>
>C: </start
>
>( the client wasn't able to handle this response from the server)
>S: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
>S:
>S: <profile uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'>
>S:   <![CDATA[<blob status='complete'/>]]>
>S: </profile>
>
>
>Is that what you are asking?
>Preston
>
>  
>
-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards



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From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Mon Mar  1 15:35:18 2004
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Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 13:25:51 -0700
From: "Preston Stephenson" <PStephenson@gw.novell.com>
To: <ietf-calendar@imc.org>
Subject: Re: CAP BEEP profile
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I just used what was already defined for SASL.
 <blob status='complete'/> for success or an <error ../> element
indicating an error.
I'm not a BEEP expert, it just seemed to be simple enough for CAP.
I didn't see a need to come up with a another exchange.
It would be simple to document as well.

In section 12.1 BEEP Profile Registration, before "Message Exchanged
during Channel Creation:" you could write:

  The CAP profile will use the same type of message exchange as the TLS
or SASL profiles defined in [BEEP], see Section 3.1 and 4.1.
  The exception will be that the client will send the start message
with the CAP profile URI.
  If the server can successfully start the channel, it will reply with
a blob element of 'complete'.
  If the server can't successfully start the channel, it will reply
with an error element.

In section 12.1, after "Message Exchanged during Channel Creation:"

 This is an example of a successful start:

  C: Content-Type: application/beep+XL
  C:
  C: <start number='3'>
  C:   <profile Uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'/>
  C: </start
  S: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
  S:
  S: <profile uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'>
  S:   <![CDATA[<blob status='complete'/>]]>
  S: </profile>

  This is an example of an error:

  C: Content-Type: application/beep+XL
  C:
  C: <start number='3'>
  C:   <profile Uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'/>
  C: </start
  S: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
  S:
  S: <profile uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'>
  S:   <![CDATA[<error code='4.1'>The server can't access the
store.</error>]]>
  S: </profile>

Or something to that effect.
Thanks.

Preston

>>> Doug@royer.com 3/1/2004 12:12:11 PM >>>

Yes. I thought you were saying that the profile information
was being sent in different sequences or something by
the two implementations.

So far I have not tried to interoperate with any other CAP
implementation. And I would not call myself a BEEP expert.

So do you have proposed text to solve the cap-bug you filed? :-)
I am still trying to figure out if I got BEEP right.


Preston Stephenson wrote:

>I think it was when the client sent the start message for the cap
>profile channel, it wasn't expecting a response from the server.
>It would want to send the start message, then immediately start
sending
>CAP messages.
>It didn't know how to handle the response from the start message.
>
>C: Content-Type: application/beep+XL
>C:
>C: <start number='3'>
>C:   <profile Uri='HTTP://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'/>
>C: </start
>
>( the client wasn't able to handle this response from the server)
>S: Content-Type: application/beep+xml
>S:
>S: <profile uri='http://iana.org/beep/cap/1.0'>
>S:   <![CDATA[<blob status='complete'/>]]>
>S: </profile>
>
>
>Is that what you are asking?
>Preston
>
>  
>
-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com 
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards





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Preston Stephenson wrote:

>It that section it says the the server ("Listerner") ignores the
>greeting sent be the client ("Initiator"). Am I missing something?
>

I read that to mean:

If the Listerner sends any error and not the <greeting>, then drop the 
connection
resulting in the Initiators <greeting> being ignored. It is not a valid 
connection
unless both sides send a <greeting>.

-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards



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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:22:17 +0900 (KST)
From: "RL 'Bob' Morgan" <rlmorgan@washington.edu>
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Just a reminder of today's meeting, and to note that we will try to
accomodate discussion via Jabber messaging for those who aren't here.  I
realize it isn't the best time of day for many folks, but we'll do our
best.

  http://xmpp.org/ietf-chat.html

for setup info, clients, etc.

 - RL "Bob"

---

> Calendaring/Scheduling (calsch) WG
>
> Tuesday, March 2 1415-1515
> =============================
>
> Chairs:
>         RL "Bob" Morgan <rlmorgan@washington.edu>
>         Pat Egen <pregen@egenconsulting.com>
>
> Agenda:
>
> 0) Preliminaries (blue sheets, scribes, agenda bashing)
> 1) WG status, proposed charter revision - 15 min
> 2) CAP -- draft-ietf-calsch-cap-12.txt - 30 min
> 3) other outstanding issues - remaining time
>
>



From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Tue Mar  2 00:13:13 2004
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Since someone asked:

> > Tuesday, March 2 1415-1515

is, I believe, 2115 US Pacific Monday, 0015 Tuesday US Eastern Tuesday,
and 0515 UTC Tuesday, or about 15 minutes from now ...

 - RL "Bob"



From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Tue Mar  2 01:12:12 2004
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(22:18:50) hardie: We've started.
(22:18:53) hardie: Anyone remote?
(22:19:10) cyrus_daboo: yes
(22:19:14) DougRoyer: Remote from here - everywhere - I am in Idaho.
(22:19:59) hardie: Lisa volunteers to scribe into the jabber room
(22:21:19) Lisa D: Hello calsch'ers
(22:21:46) Lisa D: Slide: agenda includes WG status, proposed charter 
revision, CAP, other...
(22:22:31) Lisa D: Bob: sent charter to DL already
(22:23:21) Lisa D: Bob: charter includes finishing CAP, our main 
outstanding item
(22:24:15) Lisa D: Bob: need to find people to help complete that work
(22:25:00) Lisa D: Ted: we should definitely have charter milestones in 
future, not in past.
(22:25:11) Lisa D: Ted: but you need to make sure you have document 
authors for all milestones
(22:26:21) Lisa D: Ted: It would also be good to know if there are 
people actually wanting to implement CAP
(22:26:43) DougRoyer: I know that I, Novel, and Oracle are implementing.
(22:27:32) cyrus_daboo: I'm more interested in the WebDAV (CALDAV) 
solution in the short term and perhaps CAP later...
(22:28:11) DougRoyer: And I think Sun
(22:29:18) hardie: me: thanks.
(22:29:50) hardie: Lisa:  OSAF (her future employers) seems to feel that 
CAP is not suited to their client model (smart client)
(22:30:53) Lisa D: Bob also said (before my comment) that UWashington 
was implementing a server
(22:31:27) hardie: Nathaniel: IBM is not currently implementing, no 
indication that MSoft is.
(22:32:05) hardie: Are these all server implmentations?
(22:32:23) hardie: asks lisa
(22:32:26) DougRoyer: I will have clients
(22:33:19) Lisa D: Bob: So that's some implementations, tho perhaps not 
as much as we'd like
(22:33:47) Lisa D: Bob: a significant lack of implementors might lead us 
to decide not to continue work on CAP - I don't think this constitutes 
that lack.
(22:34:09) DougRoyer: Many will wait until the spec is RFC status.
(22:34:12) Lisa D: Bugzilla repository exists to manage CAP issues
(22:34:22) Lisa D: (that was still bob)
(22:34:56) Lisa D: Bob: it's hard to create a bugzilla bug that just 
says "there are major flaws"
(22:35:16) DougRoyer: Its harder to fix that bug.
(22:35:36) cyrus_daboo: So what are the major flaws?
(22:35:44) nsb: Yeah, it's actually pretty *easy* to create the bug 
report.  :-)
(22:35:45) Lisa D: Bob: Anybody want to raise further issues with CAP here?
(22:36:17) Lisa D: Bob: There are known CAP issues but they're on the 
list, I don't think they need to be repeated here.
(22:36:38) DougRoyer: Perhaps someone can accept the task of filing them?
(22:37:12) Lisa D: Nathaniel (NSB) is at the mic - "I feel Lisa put her 
finger on something important --  the lack of model"
(22:37:30) Lisa D: NSB: The more I think about it, the more I think the 
cal server is a simple store -- but that's nothing like what we've got 
(in CAP)
(22:38:17) Lisa D: Bob: I wasn't here when CAP was originally conceived 
-- I don't know if its state is due to deliberate design tradeoffs or 
accident. Mabye that doesn't matter much now
(22:38:20) nsb: My comments are only partly about CAP, by the way -- I 
think ical in general suffers from this lack of clarity
(22:39:22) DougRoyer: iCal (and CAP) are much more complex than 
'calendaring' what looks like bloat is the supported needed for real 
time scheduling (in CAP) and coordination in all of iCal
(22:39:27) Lisa D: Bob: I'm inclined to have a short last call in the WG 
and hand it to the IESG for future disposition.
(22:40:15) Lisa D: Bob: Unless the ADs want to comment on that readiness...
(22:40:51) Lisa D: Ted: To address a previous question, there is no 
requirement for demonstrated interoperability to go forward
(22:41:02) Lisa D: Ted: there is a requirement for real review, ideally 
by implementors.
(22:41:19) Lisa D: Ted: "Silence = consent" is problematic.  I encourage 
you to require a minimum of N reviews.
(22:41:44) Lisa D: Ted: and corral people into doing them. Make sure 
that what you send up, even if it's not the be-all-end-all in this 
space, there are contributions it can make to this.
(22:42:57) DougRoyer: CAP is so big, people want to wait until we say it 
is ready.
And I AGREE - implementors - those are the ones that will find issues.
(22:43:18) Lisa D: Bob: We're adjourned.

-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards



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Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:08:03 -0500
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I  don't bite,  weah!

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I just received a message from "rlmorgan@washington.edu" which contains a 
zip file which appears to contain a script of some sort. I opened the 
archive but not the zip file...  I scanned it with Norton AntiVirus and it 
seems clean. Bob, did you send this to the list or is something/someone 
spoofing you as the sender?

Tim Hare
Interested Bystander, Non-Inc.




From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Thu Mar  4 01:09:28 2004
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From: "RL 'Bob' Morgan" <rlmorgan@washington.edu>
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On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Tim Hare wrote:

> I just received a message from "rlmorgan@washington.edu" which contains
> a zip file which appears to contain a script of some sort. I opened the
> archive but not the zip file...  I scanned it with Norton AntiVirus and
> it seems clean. Bob, did you send this to the list or is
> something/someone spoofing you as the sender?

There are a zillion of these going around now.  I believe it's the
"Bagle-J" virus or something like that.  Either this one does a better job
than previous ones of targeting mailing lists (by sending as a
subscriber), or it just sends out a lot of messages and happens to hit
lists.  Anyway if you look at the message headers this one came from a
dialup pool in New York, whereas I happen to be in Korea still.  So, just
another day on the Internet ...

 - RL "Bob"



From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Fri Mar  5 11:02:31 2004
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From: "Cortlandt Winters" <cort@notebookmargins.com>
To: <ietf-calendar@imc.org>
Subject: Is CAP really BEEP-only?
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:46:03 -0500
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Hi Folks,

It seems that CAP requires that one use BEEP as the underlying transport
layer. Is this truely the case? I've read the spec and searched through the
archives, but it seems to be so.

I understand BEEP's usefullness for things like security and compression,
and I have read that it improves asynchronous messaging, but as ubiquity and
interoperability are the key goals of a standard. Would it be possible to
add a soap level integration point for services to interoperate with their
calendar data? Are there significant aspects of CAP that couldn't be
implemented at that level?

What I would like to do is provide a nicer web based client for folks on
different platforms to share their calendar data and schedule meetings. It
seems that since CAP is the current standardization effort that I should try
and adhere to it, but requireing the use of BEEP makes it difficult to see
how I can use a web based client. I can work with BEEP in Java or Python,
but then the users would have a binary install to make and I have to worry
about multiple platforms. I would prefer to use DHTML, Flash or Curl, and
use soap headers to communicate to other CAP clients. (Though Curl and Flash
require an install, their file sizes and installation proceedures are much
more in line with what I think an average user will be willing to follow.)

I know I could create a decent scheduling app using the older formats and my
own messaging solutions, but I'd rather do things right if I can. I
appreciate the requirements and design work this group has done and it's
improved my understanding of what direction to go in in general. I will
understand if small developers like myself are not in the scope of CAP's
target audience, but the sheer number of web based calendar clients suggests
that it might be worth accomodating that part of the developer base with a
soap interoperability layer.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks

Cortlandt Winters




From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Sun Mar  7 17:12:37 2004
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Subject: Re: Is CAP really BEEP-only?
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You can create a java web client with BEEPCORE, struts and the J2EE
standard...

Alternatively write a SOAP proxy in java that uses beep to talk CAP.
This could be a client or server implementation. It's another layer but
at least you will be adhering to standards and meeting your user
requirements. I for one would NOT like to see SOAP added to the CA
Protocol as it's thorough enough already. Just write another client for
it and talk to that if you really want SOAP. 

I think some extensions like this are inevitable as the CA Protocol
tries to keep up with the fashion.. I mean software industry.

FWIW


Stuart Guthrie
Team Leader - JiCal 
http://www.jical.org

On Sat, 2004-03-06 at 02:46, Cortlandt Winters wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> It seems that CAP requires that one use BEEP as the underlying transport
> layer. Is this truely the case? I've read the spec and searched through the
> archives, but it seems to be so.
> 
> I understand BEEP's usefullness for things like security and compression,
> and I have read that it improves asynchronous messaging, but as ubiquity and
> interoperability are the key goals of a standard. Would it be possible to
> add a soap level integration point for services to interoperate with their
> calendar data? Are there significant aspects of CAP that couldn't be
> implemented at that level?
> 
> What I would like to do is provide a nicer web based client for folks on
> different platforms to share their calendar data and schedule meetings. It
> seems that since CAP is the current standardization effort that I should try
> and adhere to it, but requireing the use of BEEP makes it difficult to see
> how I can use a web based client. I can work with BEEP in Java or Python,
> but then the users would have a binary install to make and I have to worry
> about multiple platforms. I would prefer to use DHTML, Flash or Curl, and
> use soap headers to communicate to other CAP clients. (Though Curl and Flash
> require an install, their file sizes and installation proceedures are much
> more in line with what I think an average user will be willing to follow.)
> 
> I know I could create a decent scheduling app using the older formats and my
> own messaging solutions, but I'd rather do things right if I can. I
> appreciate the requirements and design work this group has done and it's
> improved my understanding of what direction to go in in general. I will
> understand if small developers like myself are not in the scope of CAP's
> target audience, but the sheer number of web based calendar clients suggests
> that it might be worth accomodating that part of the developer base with a
> soap interoperability layer.
> 
> Any thoughts appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Cortlandt Winters
> 
> 



From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Mon Mar  8 11:16:52 2004
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Subject: Re: Is CAP really BEEP-only?
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Hi Stewart,

Thank you for the response. I take it (in sum) to confirm that
I'm not mistaken and that BEEP is currently a requirement.

>You can create a java web client with BEEPCORE, struts and the
>J2EE standard...
I'd be attracted to using Java for the client, but as I mentioned
in my previous message, the runtime is larger than what I believe
the average web user will be willing to download and install
for a web client(about 15MB).

>Alternatively write a SOAP proxy in java that uses beep to talk
>CAP. This could be a client or server implementation. It's
>another layer but at least you will be adhering to standards and
>meeting your user requirements. I for one would NOT like to see
>SOAP added to the CA Protocol as it's thorough enough already.
>Just write another client for it and talk to that if you really
>want SOAP.
This scenario really only works for the server side because of the size
mentioned above, and then only my server can speak to other's servers or
clients. My client can not. It also forces me to write a server, which is
not my intent.  My intent is to create a client to interoperate with the
servers of others. Finally, this technique eliminates any possibility of an
offline mode.

Calendaring and scheduling is the classic example of where you want your
client to maintain it's own state, be as ubiquitous as possible and work
offline if possible. History suggests to me that there will be plenty of
excellent CAP web servers and few, if any, excellent CAP web clients -
especially ones that are cross platform, easy to install and which can work
offline. That may sound like a lot, but that's the task isn't it?

I did find out about another option for anybody who is similarly interested.
There is apparently a javascript beep implementation for Mozilla. And a
Mozilla icalendar project. The only problem is yet again the 10+MB download
for Moz with another download for the calendar. I could get my friends to
download a browser, but not my father or niece, which is part of the
intended user group.

>I think some extensions like this are inevitable as the CA
>Protocol tries to keep up with the fashion.. I mean software
>industry.
That is good news. I would support this direction. It would combine the low
level benefits of beep with a slower, but more ubiquitous option, which for
a calsh standard is critical. A standard doesn't truely become a standard
until it can be taken for granted and I think that such an extention would
be helpfull to that goal.

It sounds like this is the proper process and it would address my concerns.

I hope these mundane implementation concerns are not off-topic. Please just
consider them grist for the mill and honest feedback about the practical
implications of using BEEP, rather than opinionated criticism. I trust that
there are good reasons for using BEEP which offset the negatives and that
when the SOAP extention is created, it won't have to jump through too many
extra hoops because of the beep lower layer.

Thanks again for responding.

Cortlandt Winters

>FWIW
>
>Stuart Guthrie
>Team Leader - JiCal
>http://www.jical.org
>
>On Sat, 2004-03-06 at 02:46, Cortlandt Winters wrote:
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> It seems that CAP requires that one use BEEP as the underlying transport
>> layer. Is this truely the case? I've read the spec and searched through
the
>> archives, but it seems to be so.
>>
>> I understand BEEP's usefullness for things like security and compression,
>> and I have read that it improves asynchronous messaging, but as ubiquity
and
>> interoperability are the key goals of a standard. Would it be possible to
>> add a soap level integration point for services to interoperate with
their
>> calendar data? Are there significant aspects of CAP that couldn't be
>> implemented at that level?
>>
>> What I would like to do is provide a nicer web based client for folks on
>> different platforms to share their calendar data and schedule meetings.
It
>> seems that since CAP is the current standardization effort that I should
try
>> and adhere to it, but requireing the use of BEEP makes it difficult to
see
>> how I can use a web based client. I can work with BEEP in Java or Python,
>> but then the users would have a binary install to make and I have to
worry
>> about multiple platforms. I would prefer to use DHTML, Flash or Curl, and
>> use soap headers to communicate to other CAP clients. (Though Curl and
Flash
>> require an install, their file sizes and installation proceedures are
much
>> more in line with what I think an average user will be willing to
follow.)
>>
>> I know I could create a decent scheduling app using the older formats and
my
>> own messaging solutions, but I'd rather do things right if I can. I
>> appreciate the requirements and design work this group has done and it's
>> improved my understanding of what direction to go in in general. I will
>> understand if small developers like myself are not in the scope of CAP's
>> target audience, but the sheer number of web based calendar clients
suggests
>> that it might be worth accomodating that part of the developer base with
a
>> soap interoperability layer.
>>
>> Any thoughts appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Cortlandt Winters
>>
>>



From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Mon Mar  8 11:53:45 2004
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From: "Cortlandt Winters" <cort@notebookmargins.com>
To: <ietf-calendar@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Is CAP really BEEP-only?
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:37:40 -0500
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After looking at rfc 3081 I realize that BEEP is fine. I had thought that it
was trying to replace TCP rather than sit on top of it. I don't see any real
problem with BEEP now.

Appologies for the noise.



From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Wed Mar 10 02:04:06 2004
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in the rfc: 
Vevent is an event, Vtodo is a to-do. what's the diff between event and to-do? could u provide me the examples? 
VJournay is a journal entry, VFreeBusy is another thing. if i want to set Monday a free time, and the rest six days are working-day. which component should i implement by this situation? 
i eager to learn it by u guidance. 

	

 			



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cbh@sunyard.com wrote on 03/10/2004 01:41:44 AM:
> Vevent is an event, Vtodo is a to-do. what's the diff between event 
> and to-do? could u provide me the examples? 

2445 defines Events (VEVENT) as a "calendar component...that represents a 
scheduled amount of time on a calendar. "

Examples of an event are appointments (ie: a doctors appointment, etc.), 
meetings (ie: "Weekly Team Meeting") or all day (or multi-day) events (ie: 
E3, IETF, New Years Day, your Birthday, the Boston Marathon, etc).

2445 defines To-Dos (VTODO) as a "calendar component...that represent an 
action-item or assignment."

Examples of a to-do are "Pick up the dry cleaning", "Clean house for 
Saturdays Party", "Update Product Schedules for management", "Set up 
meeting with top 5 customers", "Do weekly status report" and "Wash and wax 
the car". 

Bruce
===========================================================================
Bruce Kahn                                INet: 
Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com
Messaging & Collaboration                 Phone: 978.399.6496
IBM Software Group                         FAX: and nothing but the FAX...
Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.
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<br><font size=2><tt>cbh@sunyard.com wrote on 03/10/2004 01:41:44 AM:<br>
&gt; Vevent is an event, Vtodo is a to-do. what's the diff between event
<br>
&gt; and to-do? could u provide me the examples? </tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">2445 defines Events (VEVENT) as a &quot;calendar
component...that represents a scheduled amount of time on a calendar. &quot;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Examples of an event are appointments
(ie: a doctors appointment, etc.), meetings (ie: &quot;Weekly Team Meeting&quot;)
or all day (or multi-day) events (ie: E3, IETF, New Years Day, your Birthday,
the Boston Marathon, etc).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">2445 defines To-Dos (VTODO) as a &quot;calendar
component...that represent an action-item or assignment.&quot;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Examples of a to-do are &quot;Pick up
the dry cleaning&quot;, &quot;Clean house for Saturdays Party&quot;, &quot;Update
Product Schedules for management&quot;, &quot;Set up meeting with top 5
customers&quot;, &quot;Do weekly status report&quot; and &quot;Wash and
wax the car&quot;. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Bruce</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">===========================================================================<br>
Bruce Kahn &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com<br>
Messaging &amp; Collaboration &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; Phone: 978.399.6496<br>
IBM Software Group &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; FAX: and nothing but the FAX...<br>
Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.</font>
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Bruce_Kahn

	then what's about VFreeBusy and VJounary?

what's should i implement while i want to set working days and off days?

======= 2004-03-11 00:43:56 ÄúÔÚÀ´ÐÅÖÐдµÀ£º=======

>cbh@sunyard.com wrote on 03/10/2004 01:41:44 AM:
>> Vevent is an event, Vtodo is a to-do. what's the diff between event 
>> and to-do? could u provide me the examples? 
>
>2445 defines Events (VEVENT) as a "calendar component...that represents a 
>scheduled amount of time on a calendar. "
>
>Examples of an event are appointments (ie: a doctors appointment, etc.), 
>meetings (ie: "Weekly Team Meeting") or all day (or multi-day) events (ie: 
>E3, IETF, New Years Day, your Birthday, the Boston Marathon, etc).
>
>2445 defines To-Dos (VTODO) as a "calendar component...that represent an 
>action-item or assignment."
>
>Examples of a to-do are "Pick up the dry cleaning", "Clean house for 
>Saturdays Party", "Update Product Schedules for management", "Set up 
>meeting with top 5 customers", "Do weekly status report" and "Wash and wax 
>the car". 
>
>Bruce
>===========================================================================
>Bruce Kahn                                INet: 
>Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com
>Messaging & Collaboration                 Phone: 978.399.6496
>IBM Software Group                         FAX: and nothing but the FAX...
>Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
			

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µç»°£º0571-56686888-6441
	  0571-56686441
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£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­
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Hangzhou Sunyard System Engineering Co., Ltd
Add:Sunyard Science & Technology Building, Hi-Tech Software Park (2nd Phase) Binjiang District 
Zip:310053
Tel£º0571-56686888-6441
	 0571-56686441
Fax:0571-56686777
Website: http://www.sunyard.com http://www.sunflow.com.cn
Email: cbh@sunyard.com
£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­£­ 			



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cbh@sunyard.com asked on 03/12/2004 04:01:59 AM:
>    then what's about VFreeBusy and VJounary?

2445 defines VFREEBUSY as a "calendar component...that represents either a 
request for, a reply to a request for free or busy time information or a 
published set of busy time information."  Essentially, this is now 
busytime lookups and responses are to be done (2446/2447) as well as how a 
users busytime is to be encoded (2445).  Section 4.6.4 Free/Busy Component 
of 2445 has some examples of this at the end of it that should be useful 
and 2446 Section 4.3 Busy Time Examples should be also checked out.

2445 defines VJOURNAL as a "calendar component...that represent one or 
more descriptive text notes associated with a particular calendar date." 
Basically this is the ability to have a set of notes or text associated 
with a particular date/time like some Groupware products have or that are 
available on commercial pen/paper planners like Franklin Day Planners.  A 
blog could also be constructed using VJOURNALs and so could a "Daily 
Diary", "Meeting Minutes" from a VEVENT/VTODO entry.  Its even possible to 
construct a FAQ or "Help File" out of VJOURNALs by relating them to one 
another.

> what's should i implement while i want to set working days and off days?

Exact implementation details are something you need  to decide on your 
own.   If you have particular questions about legitimacy or the 
interpretation of something, just ask.

Bruce
 
===========================================================================
Bruce Kahn                                INet: 
Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com
Messaging & Collaboration                 Phone: 978.399.6496
IBM Software Group                         FAX: and nothing but the FAX...
Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.
--=_alternative 00510AC985256E55_=
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<br><font size=2><tt>cbh@sunyard.com asked on 03/12/2004 04:01:59 AM:<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;then what's about VFreeBusy and VJounary?<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">2445 defines VFREEBUSY as a &quot;calendar
component...that represents either a request for, a reply to a request
for free or busy time information or a published set of busy time information.&quot;
&nbsp;Essentially, this is now busytime lookups and responses are to be
done (2446/2447) as well as how a users busytime is to be encoded (2445).
&nbsp;Section 4.6.4 Free/Busy Component of 2445 has some examples of this
at the end of it that should be useful and 2446 Section 4.3 Busy Time Examples
should be also checked out.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">2445 defines VJOURNAL as a &quot;calendar
component...that represent one or more descriptive text notes associated
with a particular calendar date.&quot; &nbsp;Basically this is the ability
to have a set of notes or text associated with a particular date/time like
some Groupware products have or that are available on commercial pen/paper
planners like Franklin Day Planners. &nbsp;A blog could also be constructed
using VJOURNALs and so could a &quot;Daily Diary&quot;, &quot;Meeting Minutes&quot;
from a VEVENT/VTODO entry. &nbsp;Its even possible to construct a FAQ or
&quot;Help File&quot; out of VJOURNALs by relating them to one another.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>&gt; what's should i implement while i want to set
working days and off days?<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Exact implementation details are something
you need &nbsp;to decide on your own. &nbsp; If you have particular questions
about legitimacy or the interpretation of something, just ask.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Bruce</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&nbsp;===========================================================================<br>
Bruce Kahn &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com<br>
Messaging &amp; Collaboration &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; Phone: 978.399.6496<br>
IBM Software Group &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; FAX: and nothing but the FAX...<br>
Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.</font>
--=_alternative 00510AC985256E55_=--



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cbh wrote:

>what's should i implement while i want to set working days and off days?
>  
>
We thought of creating an object for that purpose before 2445 was released.
Then we realized that the VFREEBUSY information does not have to always
match objects in the calendar. So you can return VFREEBUSY information
that always says that non-working hours are busy. Look for discussion is
in the
archives at imc.org pre-rfc 2445 time frame.

-- 

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From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Tue Mar 16 11:26:46 2004
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To: ietf-calendar@imc.org
Subject: RELATED-TO
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:03:30 -0000
From: "Mike Higginbottom" <mike@pscs.co.uk>
Organization: PSCS
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What mechanism should be used to identify the parent VAGENDA of a VEVENT  
within a calendar store?  I presume adding e.g.

RELATED-TO:cap://cal.example.com/mycalendar

is the preferred approach.  Is this enforced by CAP?  If so, I can't see  
where.

-- 
Regards
Mike Higginbottom

Paul Smith Computer Services
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support@pscs.co.uk
www.pscs.co.uk



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Currently it is free form field defined in 2445 as 'text'.

Unfortunately there is no predefined enforcement of any value.

Mike Higginbottom wrote:

>
> What mechanism should be used to identify the parent VAGENDA of a 
> VEVENT  within a calendar store?  I presume adding e.g.
>
> RELATED-TO:cap://cal.example.com/mycalendar
>
> is the preferred approach.  Is this enforced by CAP?  If so, I can't 
> see  where.
>

-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards



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From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org  Wed Mar 24 07:47:05 2004
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From: "Mike Higginbottom" <mike@pscs.co.uk>
To: ietf-calendar@imc.org
Subject: Re: RELATED-TO
References: <opr4ypj4pmk1t9pk@lmail.pscs.co.uk> <40574DE1.4070101@Royer.com>
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:56:33 -0700, Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com> wrote:

>
> Currently it is free form field defined in 2445 as 'text'.
>
> Unfortunately there is no predefined enforcement of any value.
>
> Mike Higginbottom wrote:
>
>>
>> What mechanism should be used to identify the parent VAGENDA of a
>> VEVENT  within a calendar store?  I presume adding e.g.
>>
>> RELATED-TO:cap://cal.example.com/mycalendar
>>
>> is the preferred approach.  Is this enforced by CAP?  If so, I can't
>> see  where.
>>
>

Thanks for that Doug.  At the risk of opening a can of worms, I note your  
use of the word 'unfortunately'.  Is this enforcement required and if so  
should it be added to the wish list?  I can see that most CUA to CS and CS  
to CUA transactions will use the TARGET property to explicitly make this  
relationship clear.  Is this always the case?  Is the RELATED-TO property  
only required to maintain integrity within the CS?  I can then see that it  
is a private implementation decision as to how exactly this relationship  
should be maintained.  Is it then a question of 'it would be nice if this  
was enforced but it's not critical'?

Mike Higginbottom
-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/



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Mike Higginbottom wrote:

>
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:56:33 -0700, Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Currently it is free form field defined in 2445 as 'text'.
>>
>> Unfortunately there is no predefined enforcement of any value.
>>
>> Mike Higginbottom wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What mechanism should be used to identify the parent VAGENDA of a
>>> VEVENT  within a calendar store?  I presume adding e.g.
>>>
>>> RELATED-TO:cap://cal.example.com/mycalendar
>>>
>>> is the preferred approach.  Is this enforced by CAP?  If so, I can't
>>> see  where.
>>>
>>
>
> Thanks for that Doug.  At the risk of opening a can of worms, I note 
> your  use of the word 'unfortunately'.  Is this enforcement required 
> and if so  should it be added to the wish list?

Years ago I and some others wanted a hierarchical structure in 
calendaring as an option.
That is like a company tree, corporate, departments, groups, ...,  
individuals. There
was not sufficient support for that model. What was left was a free form 
RELATED-TO
property.

> I can see that most CUA to CS and CS  to CUA transactions will use the 
> TARGET property to explicitly make this  relationship clear.  Is this 
> always the case?

That is what I use and there is no restriction on that value at all 
across vendors.

>   Is the RELATED-TO property  only required to maintain integrity 
> within the CS?

Its not required at all. It was intended for CUA use so that it could 
make hierarchical
calendars. However without any predefined meaning or standardized value, 
it would be
hard to enforce across implementations.

>   I can then see that it  is a private implementation decision as to 
> how exactly this relationship  should be maintained.  Is it then a 
> question of 'it would be nice if this  was enforced but it's not 
> critical'? 

Yes. And at this point its value is vendor specific. We could add a 
parameter that
means use the value of the RELATED-TO property as defined RFC-XXXX.
And if not provided, its a free frorm value.

-- 

Doug Royer                     |   http://INET-Consulting.com
-------------------------------|-----------------------------
Doug@Royer.com                 | Office: (208)520-4044
http://Royer.com/People/Doug   | Fax:    (866)594-8574
                               | Cell:   (208)520-4044

              We Do Standards - You Need Standards



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From: "David C. Thewlis" <Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org>
To: "IETF CALSCH" <ietf-calendar@imc.org>
Subject: Status of Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium
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Dear Colleagues,

Pat Egen has previously introduced me on this mailing list:  my name is
Dave Thewlis, and I'm the Executive Director of The Calendaring and
Scheduling Consortium.  Pat has mentioned our interest in and efforts to
get this underway and I wanted to post a brief note with current status.
Details are on the website at http://www.calconnect.org.

* The Consortium has a new address and telephone number; other contact
information is unchanged.

* The Consortium has completed the initial hurdles, is now incorporated as
a California Nonprofit Mutual Benefit Corporation, and is seeking federal
tax-exempt status as a 501(c)6 Mutual Benefit Association.  

* We are finally able to accept members (and membership fees), hold our
first Interop Testing Event (sponsored by the Consortium), and begin to
define and implement the technical steering committee and working groups.

* The temporary web site, and the introductory presentation, have been
updated to include the Interop event fees and the current status of the
organization.  Shortly we will be putting up more information, including
membership application and agreement, fees, information about Interops, and
so forth.  

* We are actively seeking founding members (those organizations who join
before our formal kick-off, which will take place in conjunction with the
first Interop), who will receive publicity as such and have the opportunity
to provide participants in the technical steering committee, and to propose
and provide chairs for initial working groups, among other things.

* We are also actively seeking a host for the first Interop testing event;
the host doesn't pay a fee for participation (naturally enough) and will
get extra publicity as the host of this event and the kick-off of the
Consortium.

If you/your organization would like to know more about membership, or
hosting an Interop (or the first Interop) please contact me; contact
information provided below.

And please take a look at http://www.calconnect.org for more complete
information.

Best Regards,

Dave Thewlis, Executive Director 
The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium
1550 Dena Drive
McKinleyville CA 95519-4146
+1 707 840 9391 (voice)
+1 415 946 3454 (fax)
Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org
www.calconnect.org