From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 3 10:42:59 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05764 for ; Mon, 3 May 2004 10:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i43EE8Rn001446; Mon, 3 May 2004 07:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i43EE8Rl001445; Mon, 3 May 2004 07:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fed1rmmtao06.cox.net (fed1rmmtao06.cox.net [68.230.241.33]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i43EE7kQ001439 for ; Mon, 3 May 2004 07:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org) Received: from davet23 ([68.227.176.107]) by fed1rmmtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20040503141404.SYQV8127.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@davet23> for ; Mon, 3 May 2004 10:14:04 -0400 Message-ID: <200405030712010382.003A2EBC@smtp.west.cox.net> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (4) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 07:12:01 -0700 Reply-To: Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org From: "David C. Thewlis" To: "IETF CALSCH" Subject: First Interop sponsored by C&S Consortium: July 29-30 at UCB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Schedule set: the first Interop testing event sponsored by The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium will be held 29-30 July 2004 at the University of California in Berkeley on its Berkeley Campus. More detailed information will be posted to the Consortium website and summarized on this list as appropriate. Dave Thewlis, Executive Director The Calendaring and Scheduling Consortium 1550 Dena Drive McKinleyville CA 95519-4146 +1 707 840 9391 (voice) +1 415 946 3454 (fax) Dave.Thewlis@calconnect.org www.calconnect.org From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 12:35:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15576 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AG6MFP092239; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4AG6MVD092238; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:06:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AG6LFf092228 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from TimHare@comcast.net) Received: from thare.comcast.net (pcp05187528pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.46.236.19]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004051016061901200rr15he> (Authid: TimHare); Mon, 10 May 2004 16:06:19 +0000 Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> X-Sender: TimHare@mail.comcast.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 12:03:28 -0400 To: ietf-calendar@above.proper.com From: TimHare@comcast.net Subject: xCalendar draft revision submitted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I'd like to announce that I submitted to the Internet Drafts, on 4/14/2004, revision 5 of an xCalendar document. I haven't seen it posted on the I-D index yet, though I'm sure that's coming. In the meantime, I can send a text or html version to anyone that asks. I did retain all of the original authors of previous drafts as authors in this document, while accepting responsibility for errors. If you are a previous author and wish to be removed from the list of authors, please let me know. This draft approaches XML calendar from a slightly different perspective than before. I took as a basic approach that a document could be an XML calendar document if it had any sort of calendaring information in XML, but that to be xCalendar compliant it must provide an XSLT transform that can create an iCalendar text file; and that any "x-" items needed to be handled by their own XML namespace. This fits with the strengths of XML/XSL/XSLT, and offers great flexibility to XML developers, while still providing RFC2445/6-compatible information. Given that XML is being used extensively in applications today, I think it's important to have ways to work with it. There are, however, already a number of XML-based calendaring tools (including Semantic Web items developed within W3C that use RDF the Resource Description Framework); so I didn't see anything to be gained by trying to make the representation within our original drafts the "standard" for XML calendar representation. I included the original xCal DTD as an example of one way to do things, and also included an example XSL stylesheet to transform a document built according to that DTD into an ".ics" file. I'm sure there are errors and revisions to be made to this draft.. please, however, note them on the list, so that all may contribute if they wish. Thanks Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 12:48:43 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16457 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AGN9gZ093724; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:23:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4AGN947093723; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:23:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from carwash.centive.com (carwash.centive.com [65.220.90.249]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i4AGN8m1093710 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:23:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from JStracke@centive.com) Received: from minglewood.incentivesystems.com ([10.10.30.25]) by carwash.centive.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.3.37) with SMTP id M2004051012242503348 ; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:24:25 -0400 Received: from [10.10.48.119] ([10.10.48.119]) by minglewood.incentivesystems.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 10 May 2004 12:19:29 -0400 Message-ID: <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 12:19:29 -0400 From: John Stracke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TimHare@comcast.net CC: ietf-calendar@above.proper.com Subject: Re: xCalendar draft revision submitted References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 16:19:29.0409 (UTC) FILETIME=[91F1A710:01C436AA] Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TimHare@comcast.net wrote: > I took as a basic approach that a document could be an XML calendar > document if it had any sort of calendaring information in XML, but > that to be xCalendar compliant it must provide an XSLT transform that > can create an iCalendar text file; XSLT is pretty heavyweight. Why not just make the XML a 1-1 rendition of the text/calendar? -- /==========================================\ |John Stracke |jstracke@centive.com | |Principal Engineer|http://www.centive.com | |Centive |My opinions are my own.| |==========================================| |Maybe only the solipsists are imaginary. | \==========================================/ From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 13:19:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18096 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AGu1Ao096692; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4AGu1Av096691; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from localhost.localdomain (archive.jsoft.com [68.90.54.98]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AGu0Dx096682 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 09:56:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gary.frederick@jsoft.com) Received: from jsoft.com (roo.jsoft.com [192.168.1.52]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id i4AHJ2Pa012286 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:19:03 -0500 Message-ID: <409FB410.5040605@jsoft.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:44 -0500 From: Gary Frederick User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-calendar@above.proper.com Subject: Re: xCalendar draft revision submitted References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> In-Reply-To: <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit apples and oranges I used the drafty XML version of xCal to come up with the XSLT that Mozilla and others have used. I had XSLT that could translate to iCal to make sure I had good stuff. The XML was nice for building web pages etc. Worked great. Good luck Tim. A standard for calendar data expressed in XML is a good thing and could be used all over the place. Gary (who has no time to follow up :-( ) John Stracke wrote: > > TimHare@comcast.net wrote: > >> I took as a basic approach that a document could be an XML calendar >> document if it had any sort of calendaring information in XML, but >> that to be xCalendar compliant it must provide an XSLT transform that >> can create an iCalendar text file; > > > XSLT is pretty heavyweight. Why not just make the XML a 1-1 rendition > of the text/calendar? > From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 13:39:12 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19171 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:39:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AHFNE2098046; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4AHFN2c098045; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:15:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from carwash.centive.com (carwash.centive.com [65.220.90.249]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i4AHFMRd098029 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from JStracke@centive.com) Received: from minglewood.incentivesystems.com ([10.10.30.25]) by carwash.centive.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.3.37) with SMTP id M2004051013163403467 ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:16:42 -0400 Received: from [10.10.48.119] ([10.10.48.119]) by minglewood.incentivesystems.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 10 May 2004 13:11:38 -0400 Message-ID: <409FB7CA.10407@centive.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:11:38 -0400 From: John Stracke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Frederick CC: ietf-calendar@above.proper.com Subject: Re: xCalendar draft revision submitted References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> <409FB410.5040605@jsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <409FB410.5040605@jsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 17:11:38.0888 (UTC) FILETIME=[DB424080:01C436B1] Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Frederick wrote: > > apples and oranges > > I used the drafty XML version of xCal to come up with the XSLT that > Mozilla and others have used. I had XSLT that could translate to iCal > to make sure I had good stuff. The XML was nice for building web pages > etc. Enabling XSLT is a far cry from requiring it. > > Worked great. > > Good luck Tim. A standard for calendar data expressed in XML is a good > thing and could be used all over the place. > > Gary (who has no time to follow up :-( ) > > > John Stracke wrote: > >> >> TimHare@comcast.net wrote: >> >>> I took as a basic approach that a document could be an XML calendar >>> document if it had any sort of calendaring information in XML, but >>> that to be xCalendar compliant it must provide an XSLT transform >>> that can create an iCalendar text file; >> >> >> >> XSLT is pretty heavyweight. Why not just make the XML a 1-1 >> rendition of the text/calendar? >> > -- /=====================================================\ |John Stracke |jstracke@centive.com | |Principal Engineer|http://www.centive.com | |Centive |My opinions are my own. | |=====================================================| |Organ transplants are best left to the professionals.| \=====================================================/ From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 13:54:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19964 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AHXDAh099946; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:33:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4AHXDn5099945; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:33:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AHXCbv099930 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from TimHare@comcast.net) Received: from thare.comcast.net (pcp05187528pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.46.236.19]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004051017331001400jv885e> (Authid: TimHare); Mon, 10 May 2004 17:33:10 +0000 Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510132210.02816600@mail.comcast.net> X-Sender: TimHare@mail.comcast.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:30:04 -0400 To: ietf-calendar@imc.org From: TimHare@comcast.net Subject: Re: xCalendar draft revision submitted In-Reply-To: <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The draft doesn't preclude doing a one-to-one representation, but I also wanted to allow the flexibility for other smaller XML representations of scheduling info. Another small example in the draft shows a band's performance schedule; it follows its own DTD ans has its own format for dates, etc. - but is "compliant" because it includes a transform that can make that XML document into an iCalendar file. This draft allows for "one-way" implementations where you can go from XML to iCalendar, but not (easily, at least) back the other way. I decided to require the XSL transformation because XSL was designed to work with XML and many programs already support it. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. At 12:19 PM 5/10/04, you wrote: >TimHare@comcast.net wrote: > >>I took as a basic approach that a document could be an XML calendar >>document if it had any sort of calendaring information in XML, but that >>to be xCalendar compliant it must provide an XSLT transform that can >>create an iCalendar text file; > >XSLT is pretty heavyweight. Why not just make the XML a 1-1 rendition of >the text/calendar? > >-- >/==========================================\ >|John Stracke |jstracke@centive.com | >|Principal Engineer|http://www.centive.com | >|Centive |My opinions are my own.| >|==========================================| >|Maybe only the solipsists are imaginary. | >\==========================================/ From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 14:15:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21281 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AHoOkm001713; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:50:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4AHoOqj001712; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:50:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from carwash.centive.com (carwash.centive.com [65.220.90.249]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i4AHoNHO001701 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 10:50:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from JStracke@centive.com) Received: from minglewood.incentivesystems.com ([10.10.30.25]) by carwash.centive.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.3.37) with SMTP id M2004051013502603525 ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:50:37 -0400 Received: from [10.10.48.119] ([10.10.48.119]) by minglewood.incentivesystems.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 10 May 2004 13:45:31 -0400 Message-ID: <409FBFBB.4040804@centive.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:45:31 -0400 From: John Stracke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TimHare@comcast.net CC: ietf-calendar@imc.org Subject: Re: xCalendar draft revision submitted References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> <6.0.3.0.0.20040510132210.02816600@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510132210.02816600@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 17:45:31.0451 (UTC) FILETIME=[96C2C0B0:01C436B6] Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TimHare@comcast.net wrote: > This draft allows for "one-way" implementations where you can go from > XML to iCalendar, but not (easily, at least) back the other way. That is not acceptable. If there is to be an XML representation of iCalendar, it must be a 1-1 transform, so that it can be converted in both directions, even by an application that doesn't know all the extensions used. > I decided to require the XSL transformation because XSL was designed > to work with XML and many programs already support it. That's not a reason to require it; it's a reason not to object to it. And, frankly, it's a false reason; it may be true that many large suites such as Evolution already have XSLT libraries linked in, but that's only a tiny fraction of the codebase that could benefit from speaking iCalendar. > > Tim Hare > Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. > > At 12:19 PM 5/10/04, you wrote: > >> TimHare@comcast.net wrote: >> >>> I took as a basic approach that a document could be an XML calendar >>> document if it had any sort of calendaring information in XML, but >>> that to be xCalendar compliant it must provide an XSLT transform >>> that can create an iCalendar text file; >> >> >> XSLT is pretty heavyweight. Why not just make the XML a 1-1 >> rendition of the text/calendar? >> >> -- >> /==========================================\ >> |John Stracke |jstracke@centive.com | >> |Principal Engineer|http://www.centive.com | >> |Centive |My opinions are my own.| >> |==========================================| >> |Maybe only the solipsists are imaginary. | >> \==========================================/ > > > -- /==============================================================\ |John Stracke |jstracke@centive.com | |Principal Engineer|http://www.centive.com | |Centive |My opinions are my own. | |==============================================================| |"Where's your sense of adventure?" "In front of a roaring fire| |with a cup of cocoa." | \==============================================================/ From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 14:47:00 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23915 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AIQEXj004479; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4AIQEnw004478; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AIQDGw004469 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from TimHare@comcast.net) Received: from thare.comcast.net (pcp05187528pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.46.236.19]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004051018261201100jto16e> (Authid: TimHare); Mon, 10 May 2004 18:26:12 +0000 Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510141441.027f6d60@mail.comcast.net> X-Sender: TimHare@mail.comcast.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:23:16 -0400 To: ietf-calendar@imc.org From: TimHare@comcast.net Subject: A note regarding XSL and xCalendar In-Reply-To: <409FC216.3010801@centive.com> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> <6.0.3.0.0.20040510132210.02816600@mail.comcast.net> <409FBFBB.4040804@centive.com> <6.0.3.0.0.20040510135242.02802610@mail.comcast.net> <409FC216.3010801@centive.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: It just occurred to me that I implied that using XSLT to transform to iCalendar is required by my draft. Actually, what is intended to be required is the inclusion of a reference to a stylesheet, and by implication the stylesheet itself, that can do such a transformation. Nothing requires an application to use the transformation. Maybe the wording can be improved - but the intent is, IF you are going to publish your calendar information in XML, then you MUST provide a stylesheet so that others MAY use XSLT to transform to iCalendar if that is the end result that they want. It's the XML developer's responsibility to provide the stylesheet since they know their document and their DTD/Schema if used. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 15:01:45 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24822 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AIe5Gw005943; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4AIe5BU005942; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:40:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from carwash.centive.com (carwash.centive.com [65.220.90.249]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i4AIe4WS005927 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from JStracke@centive.com) Received: from minglewood.incentivesystems.com ([10.10.30.25]) by carwash.centive.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.3.37) with SMTP id M2004051014413103636 ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:41:31 -0400 Received: from [10.10.48.119] ([10.10.48.119]) by minglewood.incentivesystems.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 10 May 2004 14:36:35 -0400 Message-ID: <409FCBB3.4090009@centive.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:36:35 -0400 From: John Stracke User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TimHare@comcast.net CC: ietf-calendar@imc.org Subject: Re: A note regarding XSL and xCalendar References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> <6.0.3.0.0.20040510132210.02816600@mail.comcast.net> <409FBFBB.4040804@centive.com> <6.0.3.0.0.20040510135242.02802610@mail.comcast.net> <409FC216.3010801@centive.com> <6.0.3.0.0.20040510141441.027f6d60@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510141441.027f6d60@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 18:36:35.0474 (UTC) FILETIME=[B90F8F20:01C436BD] Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TimHare@comcast.net wrote: > IF you are going to publish your calendar information in XML, then you > MUST provide a stylesheet so that others MAY use XSLT to transform to > iCalendar if that is the end result that they want. It's the XML > developer's responsibility to provide the stylesheet since they know > their document and their DTD/Schema if used. But that means it *is* required, by anybody that doesn't have a private arrangement to know the XML that was used. -- /===========================================================\ |John Stracke |jstracke@centive.com | |Principal Engineer|http://www.centive.com | |Centive |My opinions are my own. | |===========================================================| |"I only wish I had time to get married myself, as I've told| |m'wife many's the time." | \===========================================================/ From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 10 21:03:27 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20099 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4B0gFEa032473; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:42:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4B0gFNZ032472; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:42:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from www.egenconsulting.com (www.egenconsulting.com [208.31.106.82]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4B0gE3R032458 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:42:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pregen@egenconsulting.com) In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> To: TimHare@comcast.net Cc: ietf-calendar@above.proper.com, owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Subject: Re: xCalendar draft revision submitted MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: pregen@egenconsulting.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:42:12 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Notes1/Egen Consulting/01(Release 6.0.3|September 26, 2003) at 05/10/2004 08:42:20 PM, Serialize complete at 05/10/2004 08:42:20 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0003C18C85256E91_=" Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0003C18C85256E91_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Thanks for doing this draft Tim. Bob and I will check to see where the draft is in the "queue." ___________________ Patricia Egen Consulting www.egenconsulting.com 423-875-2652 --=_alternative 0003C18C85256E91_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Thanks for doing this draft Tim.  Bob and I will check to see where the draft is in the "queue."
___________________
Patricia Egen Consulting
www.egenconsulting.com
423-875-2652 --=_alternative 0003C18C85256E91_=-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Tue May 11 03:52:36 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA09412 for ; Tue, 11 May 2004 03:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4B7V6eo028850; Tue, 11 May 2004 00:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4B7V66I028847; Tue, 11 May 2004 00:31:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from dire.bris.ac.uk (dire.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.60]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4B7V5PI028821 for ; Tue, 11 May 2004 00:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Libby.Miller@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.16.62]) by dire.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BNRjA-0006w8-5x; Tue, 11 May 2004 08:31:00 +0100 Received: from ecemm (helo=localhost) by mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 1BNRia-00018u-00; Tue, 11 May 2004 08:30:24 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:30:24 +0100 (BST) From: Libby Miller X-X-Sender: ecemm@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk To: TimHare@comcast.net cc: ietf-calendar@imc.org Subject: Re: xCalendar draft revision submitted In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510132210.02816600@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> <409FAB91.5050607@centive.com> <6.0.3.0.0.20040510132210.02816600@mail.comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Level: / Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: That's a very interesting approach Tim. Have you seen the GRDDL work? http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec Libby On Mon, 10 May 2004 TimHare@comcast.net wrote: > > The draft doesn't preclude doing a one-to-one representation, but I also > wanted to allow the flexibility for other smaller XML representations of > scheduling info. Another small example in the draft shows a band's > performance schedule; it follows its own DTD ans has its own format for > dates, etc. - but is "compliant" because it includes a transform that can > make that XML document into an iCalendar file. This draft allows for > "one-way" implementations where you can go from XML to iCalendar, but not > (easily, at least) back the other way. > > I decided to require the XSL transformation because XSL was designed to > work with XML and many programs already support it. > > Tim Hare > Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. > > At 12:19 PM 5/10/04, you wrote: > > >TimHare@comcast.net wrote: > > > >>I took as a basic approach that a document could be an XML calendar > >>document if it had any sort of calendaring information in XML, but that > >>to be xCalendar compliant it must provide an XSLT transform that can > >>create an iCalendar text file; > > > >XSLT is pretty heavyweight. Why not just make the XML a 1-1 rendition of > >the text/calendar? > > > >-- > >/==========================================\ > >|John Stracke |jstracke@centive.com | > >|Principal Engineer|http://www.centive.com | > >|Centive |My opinions are my own.| > >|==========================================| > >|Maybe only the solipsists are imaginary. | > >\==========================================/ > > > > From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Tue May 11 11:01:09 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01991 for ; Tue, 11 May 2004 11:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4BEbUli019406; Tue, 11 May 2004 07:37:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4BEbUe0019405; Tue, 11 May 2004 07:37:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pillartechnology.propagation.net (pillartechnology.propagation.net [66.221.175.163]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4BEbTax019384 for ; Tue, 11 May 2004 07:37:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tgagne@wideopenwest.com) Received: from wideopenwest.com ([12.2.196.248]) by pillartechnology.propagation.net (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i4BEb3d05014; Tue, 11 May 2004 09:37:03 -0500 Message-ID: <40A0E505.7090708@wideopenwest.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:36:53 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Thomas_Gagn=E9?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: www.coordidate.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm excited about calendars and all the work being done to create standards for using them and operating them. So excited, in fact, I'm making big plans. I'd like to invite all of you to visit http://www.coordidate.org/ . We have some grandiose plans that are listed on the site (see criteria) but to start with we'll be doing some research (due dilligence) to evaluate and review as many open and closed source calendar programs, clients, services, etc., as we can to discover what's already out there. CoordiDate.org's goal is to become a free repository of event data. The Google for events. The eBay of calendars. We've been reading many of the discussions and have noticed postings like this before and the projects have disappeared for various reasons. This one will not. We already have customers interested in publicly-accessible calendars and that have read the list of criteria we think a public calendar system should include and are encourage by it. I promose to better organize the list of features (which is probably what I should rename it) into technical, end-user, storage, security, etc. topics soon. In the meantime we're collecting the names and links of related companies and businesses and would appreciate your advising us of any you know about so we may include them in our directory. Thank you for your time and we look forward to working with everyone. -- .tom remove email address' dashes for replies The last calendar you'll ever need is at Opensource middleware at From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Tue May 11 12:30:17 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06882 for ; Tue, 11 May 2004 12:30:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4BG7Iur030446; Tue, 11 May 2004 09:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4BG7Ium030445; Tue, 11 May 2004 09:07:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4BG7HPl030437 for ; Tue, 11 May 2004 09:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@Royer.com) Received: from Royer.com (doug@69-20-163-158.ida.net [69.20.163.158]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i4BG79oB026366 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 11 May 2004 09:07:11 -0700 Message-ID: <40A0FA2D.3050106@Royer.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:07:09 -0600 From: Doug Royer Reply-To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" Subject: [Fwd: Re: draft - 13-a soon] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030005030606030007050303" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030005030606030007050303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have '-13' ready with my best guess on how to fix the small handful of CAP issues filed in the bug page (http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/index.cgi ) I am going to send it two a couple of reviewers that have volunteered to scan it for issues. It should be out in few days. Bug: 491 - Listing CALSCALE values in capability. No consensus called and only ONE available - GREGORIAN. So I am not going to add text without chairs calling consensus. Bug 572: Move REQUEST-STATUS from NEW to UPDATED. (There was also another I noticed that was moved to the correct location - forgot what at this point). Bug 657: The real issue is - how does BEEP work. The profile exists, is it correct? Needs review. I added the text (Tweaked to match CAP ) sent by Preston Stephenson apx 01-MAR-2004. What I would like to see from the chairs: (1) Could you send email to the list to anyone that has issues - to file them? Thanks! What is an issue to one person may be an unarticulated question that has gone unanswered. Declare that if it is not filed, then it is not going to be considered an issue. (2) SEND an isssue list OR declare the bug list the issue list. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)520-4044 http://Royer.com/People/Doug | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)520-4044 http://Royer.com/People/Doug | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms030005030606030007050303 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE 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Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4DJEMku048677; Thu, 13 May 2004 12:14:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout6.cac.washington.edu (mxout6.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4DJELdU048650 for ; Thu, 13 May 2004 12:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rlmorgan@washington.edu) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.33.9]) by mxout6.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i4DJEOR8017618 for ; Thu, 13 May 2004 12:14:24 -0700 Received: from D-140-142-21-50.dhcp4.washington.edu (D-140-142-21-50.dhcp4.washington.edu [140.142.21.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i4DJEAcI026080 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 13 May 2004 12:14:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:14:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "RL 'Bob' Morgan" X-X-Sender: rlmorgan@perp.cac.washington.edu To: IETF calsch WG Subject: Re: xCalendar draft revision submitted In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040510114042.0280b440@mail.comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: There has been some discussion among the chairs and the authors of the various xCalendar (ie, XML for iCalendar) drafts about how to handle this document (or documents). Here is our proposed path forward on this. Please comment if you have objections or suggestions for handling this differently. There has apparently never been an "XML version of iCalendar" work item in the charter for this Working Group. Nor did the proposed revised charter that I posted in February (about which more later) include this item. Rather than adding it to the charter now, we suggest that this work can proceed as individual submissions to the IETF. Internet-Draft documents on this topic would be named draft--xcalendar-NN or similar. They can and should be discussed on this list (at least until the point where high volume would cause us to say the discussion should be taken elsewhere). The authors can ask for informal last call on this list if they desire, and can submit the documents to the IESG for publishing as RFCs (it is entirely reasonable for documents handled in this fashion to become Standards Track RFCs). But the documents would not be tracked as WG work items, nor would the eventual closing of this WG depend on their being finished. So I believe we can expect new individual submissions on xCalendar to appear soon. There won't be a new draft-ietf-calsch-xcal-NN document. - RL "Bob" From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Tue May 18 23:32:54 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA09282 for ; Tue, 18 May 2004 23:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4J3CFcB007186; Tue, 18 May 2004 20:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4J3CFHF007185; Tue, 18 May 2004 20:12:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4J3CE7a007162 for ; Tue, 18 May 2004 20:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from TimHare@comcast.net) Received: from thare.comcast.net (pcp05187528pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.46.236.19]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004051903121501200oocm2e> (Authid: TimHare); Wed, 19 May 2004 03:12:16 +0000 Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.0.20040516221916.02820e80@mail.comcast.net> X-Sender: TimHare@mail.comcast.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 22:22:14 -0400 To: ietf-calendar@imc.org From: TimHare@comcast.net Subject: draft-hare-xcalendar-00 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I've made slight revisions to my previously-mentioned xCalendar doucment, and submitted it to Internet-drafts as draft-hare-xcalendar-00.txt (text version) draft-hare-xcalendar-00.htm (HTML version) This will show up in the Internet Drafts index eventually. As before, I will send copies to those that want them. One caveat - the example XSL is still somewhat in flux; for example it doesn't wrap lines at 75 characters. I'm still investigating the best way to do that in XSL. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Wed May 19 11:16:35 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18395 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 11:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4JEoQL2039157; Wed, 19 May 2004 07:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4JEoQ6s039156; Wed, 19 May 2004 07:50:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com (capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com [205.159.212.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4JEoQtG038940 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 07:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com) To: ietf-calendar@imc.org Subject: CAP-12-e: TRANSP has misleading ABNF comments MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V70_05092004NP May 09, 2004 Message-ID: From: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:50:12 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Capricorn/Iris(Release 6.0.2CF1|June 9, 2003) at 05/19/2004 10:46:58 AM, Serialize complete at 05/19/2004 10:46:58 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 005140E285256E99_=" Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 005140E285256E99_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In looking up something I noticed what appears to be incorrect/misleading text in Section 8.37 TRANSP Property. In particular the comments in the ABNF: transp = "TRANSP" other-params ":" transvalue CRLF transvalue = "OPAQUE" ;Blocks or opaque on busy time searches. / "TRANSPARENT" ;Transparent on busy time searches. / "TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT" ; Transparent on busy time ; searches and no other OPAQUE or OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT objects ; can overlap it. / "OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT" ; Opaque on busy time ; searches and no other OPAQUE or OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT objects ; can overlap it. ; ;Default value is OPAQUE According to the comments for TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT and OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT, it would allowable for an object with TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT to overlap. Clearly this is not what we intended to say. Especially given intention of the -NOCONFLICT bit no matter the busytime opacity and the text of Section 4.2.1 Access Control and NOCONFLICT: The "TRANSP" property can take on values "TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT" and "OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT" that prohibit other components from overlapping it. The fix (for Dougs edification) is simple, change relevant the ABNF to: / "TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT" ; Transparent on busy time ; searches and no other OPAQUE or OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT or ; TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT objects can overlap it. / "OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT" ; Opaque on busy time ; searches and no other OPAQUE or OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT or ; TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT objects can overlap it. Bruce =========================================================================== Bruce Kahn INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com Messaging & Collaboration Phone: 978.399.6496 IBM Software Group FAX: and nothing but the FAX... Standard disclaimers apply, even where prohibited by law... --=_alternative 005140E285256E99_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In looking up something I noticed what appears to be incorrect/misleading text in Section 8.37 TRANSP Property.  In particular the comments in the ABNF:

   transp   = "TRANSP" other-params ":" transvalue CRLF

  transvalue
           = "OPAQUE" ;Blocks or opaque on busy time searches.
           / "TRANSPARENT"    ;Transparent on busy time searches.

           / "TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT" ; Transparent on busy time
           ; searches and no other OPAQUE or OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT objects
           ; can overlap it.

           / "OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT"  ; Opaque on busy time
           ; searches and no other OPAQUE or OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT objects
           ; can overlap it.
           ;
           ;Default value is OPAQUE
According to the comments for TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT and OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT, it would allowable for an object with TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT to overlap.  Clearly this is not what we intended to say.  Especially given intention of the -NOCONFLICT bit no matter the busytime opacity and the text of Section 4.2.1 Access Control and NOCONFLICT:

   The "TRANSP" property can take on values "TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT" and
  "OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT" that prohibit other components from overlapping
  it.
The fix (for Dougs edification) is simple,  change relevant the ABNF to:

            / "TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT" ; Transparent on busy time
           ; searches and no other OPAQUE or OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT or
            ; TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT objects can overlap it.

           / "OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT"  ; Opaque on busy time
           ; searches and no other OPAQUE or OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT or
            ; TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT objects can overlap it.
Bruce
===========================================================================
Bruce Kahn                                INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com
Messaging & Collaboration                 Phone: 978.399.6496
IBM Software Group                         FAX: and nothing but the FAX...
Standard disclaimers apply, even where prohibited by law... --=_alternative 005140E285256E99_=-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Wed May 19 13:01:30 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24195 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 13:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4JGcXRS048385; Wed, 19 May 2004 09:38:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4JGcX2l048384; Wed, 19 May 2004 09:38:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu (mxout5.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.135]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4JGcXtK048378 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 09:38:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rlmorgan@washington.edu) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i4JGcZ1C024573; Wed, 19 May 2004 09:38:35 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-67-170-59-55.client.comcast.net [67.170.59.55]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i4JGcXAV016313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT); Wed, 19 May 2004 09:38:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:38:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "RL 'Bob' Morgan" X-X-Sender: rlmorgan@perp.cac.washington.edu To: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com cc: IETF calsch WG Subject: Re: CAP-12-e: TRANSP has misleading ABNF comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: No comment on the issue, but let me point out that the current CAP document under discussion is draft-ietf-calsch-cap-12.txt as found in the I-D repository. Comments on other versions (except for historical reference to compare to the current one) are not in order. In this case as far as I can see the cap-12.txt text is the same. - RL "Bob" From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Wed May 19 23:00:40 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA08154 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 23:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4K2iTuv007328; Wed, 19 May 2004 19:44:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4K2iTj1007327; Wed, 19 May 2004 19:44:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4K2iT7H007316 for ; Wed, 19 May 2004 19:44:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from TimHare@comcast.net) Received: from thare.comcast.net (pcp05187528pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.46.236.19]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004052002443001500qd2s6e> (Authid: TimHare); Thu, 20 May 2004 02:44:30 +0000 Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.0.20040517215330.028264b0@mail.comcast.net> X-Sender: TimHare@mail.comcast.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:54:21 -0400 To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" From: TimHare@comcast.net Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: draft - 13-a soon] In-Reply-To: <40A0FA2D.3050106@Royer.com> References: <40A0FA2D.3050106@Royer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I would like to ask the chairs to call consensus on including CALSCALE as a mandatory property of the capability reply, please? Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. At 12:07 PM 5/11/04, you wrote: >I have '-13' ready with my best guess on how to fix >the small handful of CAP issues filed in the bug >page (http://bugzilla.opengroupware.org/bugzilla/index.cgi ) > >I am going to send it two a couple of reviewers that have >volunteered to scan it for issues. It should be >out in few days. > > >Bug: 491 - Listing CALSCALE values in capability. No consensus called > and only ONE available - GREGORIAN. So I am not going > to add text without chairs calling consensus. > >Bug 572: Move REQUEST-STATUS from NEW to UPDATED. > (There was also another I noticed that was moved to the > correct location - forgot what at this point). > >Bug 657: The real issue is - how does BEEP work. The profile exists, > is it correct? Needs review. I added the text (Tweaked > to match CAP ) sent by Preston Stephenson apx 01-MAR-2004. > >What I would like to see from the chairs: > > (1) Could you send email to the list to anyone that has issues - to file > them? Thanks! What is an issue to one person may be an unarticulated > question that has gone unanswered. Declare that if it is not filed, then > it is not going to be considered an issue. > > (2) SEND an isssue list OR declare the bug list the issue list. > >-- > >Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com >-------------------------------|----------------------------- >Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)520-4044 >http://Royer.com/People/Doug | Fax: (866)594-8574 > | Cell: (208)520-4044 > > We Do Standards - You Need Standards > > > > >-- > >Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com >-------------------------------|----------------------------- >Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)520-4044 >http://Royer.com/People/Doug | Fax: (866)594-8574 > | Cell: (208)520-4044 > > We Do Standards - You Need Standards > > > > From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Thu May 20 10:24:20 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19574 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:24:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4KE29Eo078860; Thu, 20 May 2004 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4KE29d2078859; Thu, 20 May 2004 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com (capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com [205.159.212.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4KE28lH078851 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 07:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com) To: ietf-calendar@imc.org Subject: CAP-12-e: TRANSP and -NOCONFLICT changes MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V70_05092004NP May 09, 2004 Message-ID: From: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:55:42 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Capricorn/Iris(Release 6.0.2CF1|June 9, 2003) at 05/20/2004 09:58:40 AM, Serialize complete at 05/20/2004 09:58:40 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0072B74185256E99_=" Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0072B74185256E99_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In trying to picture how the new TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT and OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT TRANSParency property values would function I ran into a bit of a quandry about how something would work given the new values. In particular I see 2 scenarios where I see some potential problems with CU confusion or frustration. So I thought Id ask the WG for some help in understanding/resolving it. Sceneario 1: I am going on vacation and I want to block off that entire week from my calendar. I also want to make sure I do not overbook myself for, say, Wednesday afternoon when my family and I have reservations to some special activity at a particular time (ie: "Island boat tour from 3 - 5PM, no rainchecks or refunds"). For this case I would normally expect to create either an entry that spans all week and has TRANSP:OPAQUE so that my coworkers know Im out that week. However, given the rules for TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT and OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT, I cannot later add that special Wednesday event to my calendar with either -NOCONFLICT value. Trying to do so would result in my CUA being given a REQUEST-STATUS:6.2; response code. So just how would I block off the entire vacation week and have that special event on my calendar? Possible solutions include: A: Do not use an OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT property value for either entry. This though could allow me to overbook myself for that special activity. B: Split the preexisting week long blocker into a "before special event" block and an "after special event" block. While doable, it does introduce some other potential issues: 1: If the special event gets rescheduled, the same process would need to be repeated. Also, this would leave a non-OPAQUE slot in my availability that should not be there. 2: If the special event is cancelled (ie: rained out) then I now have an available spot in my availability that should not be there. Scenario 2: I want to go on vacation for 2 weeks and block out my time accordingly. However I have a bi-weekly team meeting with a TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT so I cant just make a blocking entry that spans my entire vacation block. So again Im not sure what the expected / correct set of actions would be for me to be able to block out my vacation time when I have a pre-existing OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT entry. Just because Im on vacation does not mean I want to delete the team meeting from my calendar. I may be the Organizer of it and as such clearly do not want to CANCEL it or delete it for everyone. Besides even if I make the VEVENT have a STATUS:CANCELLED, that does not mean the TRANSParency value is ignored since the entry still exists in my calendar. One possible solution would be to locally change my copy of the VEVENT to be TRANSP:OPAQUE (not OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT) and then save the vacation entry. This however would mean that my version is no longer in sync with the version the other ATTENDEEs have. So if I were to delegate it to someone else, my CUA would have to know to restore the original OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT on the copy it sent to my designee. Other bad sideffects of this solution is that if I were the Organizer then if I were to do any updates to it (before going on vacation) then the instance affected would also get a TRANSP:OPAQUE value which would allow others to overbook now and thats not what I would expect. The (B) solution above could be equally applied here too but again there are undesirable side effects in doing this. So can someone please explain how to solve these simple scenarios? While I see and understand the uses for the new -NOCONFLICT values, Im having a hard time visualizing their practical use in some simple cases. Bruce =========================================================================== Bruce Kahn INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com Messaging & Collaboration Phone: 978.399.6496 IBM Software Group FAX: and nothing but the FAX... Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear. --=_alternative 0072B74185256E99_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In trying to picture how the new TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT and OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT TRANSParency property values would function I ran into a bit of a quandry about how something would work given the new values.  In particular I see 2 scenarios where I see some potential problems with CU confusion or frustration.  So I thought Id ask the WG for some help in understanding/resolving it.

Sceneario 1: I am going on vacation and I want to block off that entire week from my calendar.  I also want to make sure I do not overbook myself for, say, Wednesday afternoon when my family and I have reservations to some special activity at a particular time (ie: "Island boat tour from 3 - 5PM, no rainchecks or refunds").

For this case I would normally expect to create either an entry that spans all week and has TRANSP:OPAQUE so that my coworkers know Im out that week.  However, given the rules for TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT and OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT, I cannot later add that special Wednesday event to my calendar with either -NOCONFLICT value.  Trying to do so would result in my CUA being given a REQUEST-STATUS:6.2; response code.

So just how would I block off the entire vacation week and have that special event on my calendar?  Possible solutions include:

        A: Do not use an OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT property value for either entry.  This though could allow me to overbook myself for that special activity.

        B: Split the preexisting week long blocker into a "before special event" block and an "after special event" block.  While doable, it does introduce some other potential issues:

                1: If the special event gets rescheduled, the same process would need to be repeated.  Also, this would leave a non-OPAQUE slot in my availability that should not be there.
                2: If the special event is cancelled (ie: rained out) then I now have an available spot in my availability that should not be there.

Scenario 2: I want to go on vacation for 2 weeks and block out my time accordingly.  However I have a bi-weekly team meeting with a TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT so I cant just make a blocking entry that spans my entire vacation block.

So again Im not sure what the expected / correct set of actions would be for me to be able to block out my vacation time when I have a pre-existing OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT entry.  Just because Im on vacation does not mean I want to delete the team meeting from my calendar.  I may be the Organizer of it and as such clearly do not want to CANCEL it or delete it for everyone.  Besides even if I make the VEVENT have a STATUS:CANCELLED, that does not mean the TRANSParency value is ignored since the entry still exists in my calendar.

One possible solution would be to locally change my copy of the VEVENT to be TRANSP:OPAQUE (not OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT) and then save the vacation entry.  This however would mean that my version is no longer in sync with the version the other ATTENDEEs have.  So if I were to delegate it to someone else, my CUA would have to know to restore the original OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT on the copy it sent to my designee.  Other bad sideffects of this solution is that if I were the Organizer then if I were to do any updates to it (before going on vacation) then the instance affected would also get a TRANSP:OPAQUE value which would allow others to overbook now and thats not what I would expect.

The (B) solution above could be equally applied here too but again there are undesirable side effects in doing this.

So can someone please explain how to solve these simple scenarios?  While I see and understand the uses for the new -NOCONFLICT values, Im having a hard time visualizing their practical use in some simple cases.

Bruce
===========================================================================
Bruce Kahn                                INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com
Messaging & Collaboration                 Phone: 978.399.6496
IBM Software Group                         FAX: and nothing but the FAX...
Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear. --=_alternative 0072B74185256E99_=-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Thu May 20 13:18:34 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03644 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 13:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4KGnRHh091465; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:49:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4KGnRLF091464; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4KGnQZ1091448 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@Royer.com) Received: from Royer.com (doug@69-20-163-158.ida.net [69.20.163.158]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i4KGnIoB005225 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 09:49:22 -0700 Message-ID: <40ACE18D.9030801@Royer.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:49:17 -0600 From: Doug Royer Reply-To: ietf-calendar@imc.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" Subject: Re: CAP-12-e: TRANSP and -NOCONFLICT changes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070208010604010107040906" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070208010604010107040906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was discussed on this list before. The solution is: Make your new TRANSPARENT-OPAQUE object a series of recurring objects that span all of the non-opaque time and insert them into your calendar. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)520-4044 http://Royer.com/People/Doug | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms070208010604010107040906 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 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X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4L2K2m7049282 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 19:20:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from TimHare@comcast.net) Received: from thare.comcast.net (pcp05187528pcs.micske01.fl.comcast.net[68.46.236.19]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004052102200301300jl379e> (Authid: TimHare); Fri, 21 May 2004 02:20:03 +0000 Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.0.20040520221741.0282c330@mail.comcast.net> X-Sender: TimHare@mail.comcast.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:19:20 -0400 To: ietf-calendar@imc.org From: TimHare@comcast.net Subject: draft-hare-xcalendar-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: The draft is now on the IETF drafts site: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hare-xcalendar-00.txt I can still supply HTML and/or XML (for use with xml2rfc) versions. I'd appreciate your comments and suggestions, if you have time. Tim Hare Interested Bystander, Non-Inc. 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----------dictxwsurugujaivrsqe Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="the_message.vbs" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="the_message.vbs" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 ----------dictxwsurugujaivrsqe-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Mon May 24 00:52:25 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA26381 for ; Mon, 24 May 2004 00:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4O4Q3UJ043948; Sun, 23 May 2004 21:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4O4Q3e2043947; Sun, 23 May 2004 21:26:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rmk027.net ([203.199.214.66]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i4O4PxLI043920 for ; Sun, 23 May 2004 21:26:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pregen@egenconsulting.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:46:27 +0530 To: "Ietf-calendar" From: "Pregen" Subject: Hidden message Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--------tysmxskhrplaermyfuxb" Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: ----------tysmxskhrplaermyfuxb Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Mon, 24 May 2004 16:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4OJgMfX037489; Mon, 24 May 2004 12:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4OJgMXI037488; Mon, 24 May 2004 12:42:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4OJgK9i037471 for ; Mon, 24 May 2004 12:42:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dinaras@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25157; Mon, 24 May 2004 15:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200405241942.PAA25157@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-calendar@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:42:21 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Calendaring and Scheduling Working Group of the IETF. Title : Calendar Access Protocol (CAP) Author(s) : D. Royer, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt Pages : 145 Date : 2004-5-24 The Calendar Access Protocol (CAP) is an Internet protocol described in this memo that permits a Calendar User (CU) to utilize a Calendar User Agent (CUA) to access an [iCAL] based Calendar Store (CS). The CAP definition is based on requirements identified by the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) Calendaring and Scheduling (CALSCH) Working Group. More information about the IETF CALSCH Working Group activities can be found on the IMC web site at http:// www.imc.org/ietf-calendar and at the IETF web site at http:// www.ietf.org/html.charters/calsch-charter.html [1]. Refer to the references within this memo for further information on how to access these various documents. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-5-24153149.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-5-24153149.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Tue May 25 11:22:11 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18202 for ; Tue, 25 May 2004 11:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4PF2mZr022034; Tue, 25 May 2004 08:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4PF2mPJ022032; Tue, 25 May 2004 08:02:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4PF2lav022020 for ; Tue, 25 May 2004 08:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dinaras@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16924; Tue, 25 May 2004 11:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200405251502.LAA16924@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-calendar@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:02:47 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Calendaring and Scheduling Working Group of the IETF. Title : Calendar Access Protocol (CAP) Author(s) : D. Royer, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt Pages : 145 Date : 2004-5-24 The Calendar Access Protocol (CAP) is an Internet protocol described in this memo that permits a Calendar User (CU) to utilize a Calendar User Agent (CUA) to access an [iCAL] based Calendar Store (CS). The CAP definition is based on requirements identified by the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) Calendaring and Scheduling (CALSCH) Working Group. More information about the IETF CALSCH Working Group activities can be found on the IMC web site at http:// www.imc.org/ietf-calendar and at the IETF web site at http:// www.ietf.org/html.charters/calsch-charter.html [1]. Refer to the references within this memo for further information on how to access these various documents. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-5-24153149.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2004-5-24153149.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Thu May 27 06:41:07 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA14134 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 06:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RAMFKu019824; Thu, 27 May 2004 03:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4RAMFVE019823; Thu, 27 May 2004 03:22:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mid-1.inet.it (mid-1.inet.it [213.92.5.18]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RAMCan019793 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 03:22:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harrie@inet.it) Received: from harrie2.inet.it [::ffff:213.92.1.196] by mid-1.inet.it via I-SMTP-5.0.6-506 id ::ffff:213.92.1.196+443jiJDeB1Nk; Thu, 27 May 2004 12:22:06 +0200 Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt From: Harrie Hazewinkel To: ietf-calendar@imc.org Cc: harrie@inet.it In-Reply-To: <200405241942.PAA25157@ietf.org> References: <200405241942.PAA25157@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: I.Net Message-Id: <1085653304.2372.5.camel@linux.lisanza.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.3 Date: 27 May 2004 12:21:46 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I found a typo in the latest draft. The capquery BNF specifies the state() values as 'BOOKED', 'UNPROCESSED' and, 'DELETED'. (page 37) However, on page 47 the example uses 'DELETE'. cheers, Harrie From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Thu May 27 12:56:14 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08722 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 12:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RGamkY099958; Thu, 27 May 2004 09:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4RGamLX099957; Thu, 27 May 2004 09:36:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RGalxm099933 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 09:36:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@Royer.com) Received: from Royer.com (doug@inet-products.com [69.20.163.158]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i4RGaeus005510 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 09:36:42 -0700 Message-ID: <40B61917.60006@Royer.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:36:39 -0600 From: Doug Royer Reply-To: ietf-calendar@imc.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-calsch-cap-13.txt References: <200405241942.PAA25157@ietf.org> <1085653304.2372.5.camel@linux.lisanza.net> In-Reply-To: <1085653304.2372.5.camel@linux.lisanza.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060809090004080900060306" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060809090004080900060306 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fixed - thanks Harrie Hazewinkel wrote: >Hi all, > > >I found a typo in the latest draft. > >The capquery BNF specifies the state() values >as 'BOOKED', 'UNPROCESSED' and, 'DELETED'. >(page 37) > >However, on page 47 the example uses 'DELETE'. > > >cheers, > >Harrie > > > > -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)520-4044 http://Royer.com/People/Doug | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms060809090004080900060306 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME 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Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RLsPaE038525; Thu, 27 May 2004 14:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4RLsPdS038524; Thu, 27 May 2004 14:54:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yavin4.law-justice.crimes.net ([63.237.219.38]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RLsOuR038513 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 14:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cortega@crimes.net) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C44435.2CC65FB4" Subject: C# CAP Implementation Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:54:24 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: C# CAP Implementation Thread-Index: AcRENSyHYOMShekpQiStTgT/myuf9g== From: "Carlos Ortega" To: Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C44435.2CC65FB4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been assigned the task of building a Novell GroupWise interface into our application. The interface must be capable of altering calendar events. GroupWise 6.5.1 implements CAP (draft version 10); although the standard is unfinished I thought it wise to look into implementing a CAP solution rather than the ActiveX proprietary solution offered by Novell, since a solution built on the finished standard should be capable of targeting various calendar platforms. =20 Although I prefer Java, the brass has made it clear the solution must be implemented in C#. I have been searching the web for quite some time and found very little in the way of C# examples. I would greatly appreciate any insight, online references, or book recommendations. =20 Thanks, -Carlos ------_=_NextPart_001_01C44435.2CC65FB4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’ve been assigned the task of building a Novell GroupWise interface into our application. The interface must be capable of = altering calendar events.  GroupWise 6.5.1 implements CAP (draft version = 10); although the standard is unfinished I thought it wise to look into = implementing a CAP solution rather than the ActiveX proprietary solution offered by = Novell, since a solution built on the finished standard should be capable of = targeting various calendar platforms.

 

Although I prefer Java, the brass has made it clear the solution = must be implemented in C#. I have been searching the web for quite some time = and found very little in the way of C# examples. I would greatly appreciate = any insight, online references, or book recommendations.

 

Thanks,
-Carlos

------_=_NextPart_001_01C44435.2CC65FB4-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Thu May 27 18:43:23 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02094 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 18:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RMQQHg044864; Thu, 27 May 2004 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4RMQQId044863; Thu, 27 May 2004 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com (capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com [205.159.212.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RMQPdV044828 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com) In-Reply-To: <40ACE18D.9030801@Royer.com> To: ietf-calendar@imc.org Subject: Re: CAP-12-e: TRANSP and -NOCONFLICT changes MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V70_05252004NP May 25, 2004 Message-ID: From: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 18:28:30 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Capricorn/Iris(Release 6.0.2CF1|June 9, 2003) at 05/27/2004 06:23:01 PM, Serialize complete at 05/27/2004 06:23:01 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 007AD54D85256EA1_=" Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 007AD54D85256EA1_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Doug replied on 05/20/2004 12:49:17 PM: > This was discussed on this list before. The solution is: Thanks for your quick response. However I do no recall us discussing actual scenarios like the 2 I posted, merely discussing usage examples for the proposed new -NOCONFLICT values (ie: "Making sure a conf. room is never overbooked."). So in the interest of fairness and accuracy I did a full text scan of the archives back to 1996 and I found just 27 messages (excluding this new thread) that have the word "NOCONFLICT" in them: Date Subject 10/19/99 Overlapped Bookings (David Madeo ) 10/19/99 Re: Overlapped Bookings (Doug Royer ) 08/18/2000 Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (George Babics ) 08/21/2000 Re: Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (Bruce_Kahn@iris.com) 08/21/2000 Re: Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (Doug Royer ) 08/21/2000 [Fwd: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: imc.or: host not found)] (Doug Royer ) 08/22/2000 Re: Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (Bruce_Kahn@iris.com) 08/22/2000 Re: Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (Doug Royer ) 02/11/2002 Re: CAP: inconsistency in Overlapped Booking definition (Doug Royer ) 01/08/2002 CAP (NO CONFLICT and ALLOW-CONFLICT) (Doug Royer ) 06/14/2003 CAP ABNF (Doug Royer ) 02/23/2003 CAP REQUEST-STATUS - update and proposals (Doug Royer ) 03/13/2003 Re: CAP Last call??? (Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com) 04/01/2003 Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT (Doug Royer ) 04/02/2003 Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT ("Preston Stephenson" ) 04/02/2003 Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT (Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com) 04/02/2003 Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT (Doug Royer ) 04/03/2003 Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT (Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com) 04/02/2003 cap-10 sections 1-5 comments/questions (mostly boring) (Dan Winship ) 07/22/2003 Re: Cap Free-Busy Request - vs QUERY? (Doug Royer ) 07/23/2003 Re: Cap Free-Busy Request - vs QUERY? ("Craig Johnson" ) 07/22/2003 Re: Cap Free-Busy Request - vs QUERY? ("Craig Johnson" ) 07/22/2003 Re: Cap Free-Busy Request - vs QUERY? (Doug Royer ) 10/02/2003 Re: When to publish -12 - VFREEBUSY ("Craig Johnson" ) 11/25/2003 Re: Clarification for Free/Busy (Doug Royer ) 01/19/2004 CAP-12: 10.12.1 Searching for VFREEBUSY (Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com) 01/19/2004 Re: CAP-12: 10.12.1 Searching for VFREEBUSY (Doug Royer ) None of them actually discuss scenarios like I asked about. BTW: I noticed that Dougs postings from 19-Oct-1999 and 8-Jan-2002 had questions noone ever responded to also and we never resolved... As I sorted thru thse postings I also noticed that my recent comment about the ABNF comments on TRANSP were initially posted back in Aug-2000 so its not something that was just now discovered. I did find that Doug responded with the same basic response in one of his 1-Apr-2003 replys under the "CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT" sub-threads. However that was just his response that one time, not an actual discussion by the WG on how to approach it.. Plust it was just 1 paragraph in a very active discussion thread, not really a WG discussion and agreement of the behaviour. > Make your new TRANSPARENT-OPAQUE object a series of recurring objects > that span all > of the non-opaque time and insert them into your calendar. This suggestion has 2 points that still need to be addressed: 1: Not every implementation breaks entries like "Vacation" into repeating daily entries that span the entire week. For example, both Notes and Outlook allow users to specify a single instance entry that blocks the entire time/set of dates. As such, users have come to rely on this ability. Even if it was changed under the covers to be multiple daily instances (something we are loath do consider given that what we both have currently works just fine), there is still... 2: My original "B" issue that comes from needing to reschedule or otherwise change the "exception" NOCONFLICT entry. That was: > B: Split the preexisting week long blocker into a "before > special event" block and an "after special event" block. While > doable, it does introduce some other potential issues: > > 1: If the special event gets rescheduled, the same > process would need to be repeated. Also, this would leave a non- > OPAQUE slot in my availability that should not be there. > 2: If the special event is cancelled (ie: rained > out) then I now have an available spot in my availability that > should not be there. For B.1, how is the CUA to know that it can (MUST actually) rework the TRANSP:OPAQUE halves before and after the new NOCONFLICT entry if the entry is reschedule? To do so would require some extra metadata that we have never defined or discussed. Just how is a CUA to know that it needs to 'repair' the hole left by #B.2 by either consolidating the "before" and "after" TRANSP:OPAQUE entries into a single "all day" instance (again)? To do so requires that the CUA have some way of 'knowing' that the OPAQUE entries before and after are part of the same "vacation" and thus 'mergable' into a larger entry that takes all day. BTW: if my TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT event has STATUS:CANCELLED then one could argue that it should no longer be OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT since its been cancelled (but its still on the calendar for legal/historical/personal reasons). So far I am not convinced that what Doug suggested method is the sole/correct way to solve my scenarios or that it is even buildable with what we have currently in the RFCs or the CAP draft. Dougs suggestion A) is not codified in CAP in any form and B) does not address all the issues inherent in that kind of design. Can anyone help clarify this ambiguity/confusion for me? Bruce =========================================================================== Bruce Kahn INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com Messaging & Collaboration Phone: 978.399.6496 IBM Software Group FAX: and nothing but the FAX... Standard disclaimers apply, even where prohibited by law... --=_alternative 007AD54D85256EA1_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Doug replied on 05/20/2004 12:49:17 PM:
> This was discussed on this list before. The solution is:
Thanks for your quick response.  However I do no recall us discussing actual scenarios like the 2 I posted, merely discussing usage examples for the proposed new -NOCONFLICT values (ie: "Making sure a conf. room is never overbooked.").  

So in the interest of fairness and accuracy I did a full text scan of the archives back to 1996 and I found just 27 messages (excluding this new thread) that have the word "NOCONFLICT" in them:
Date Subject
10/19/99 Overlapped Bookings (David Madeo <dmadeo@ms.com>)
10/19/99         Re: Overlapped Bookings (Doug Royer <Doug.Royer@software.com>)
08/18/2000 Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (George Babics <georgeb@cst.ca>)
08/21/2000         Re: Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (Bruce_Kahn@iris.com)
08/21/2000                 Re: Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (Doug Royer <doug@home.royer.com>)
08/21/2000                 [Fwd: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: imc.or: host not found)] (Doug Royer <doug@home.royer.com>)
08/22/2000                         Re: Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (Bruce_Kahn@iris.com)
08/22/2000                                 Re: Subject: Registration of text/calendar MIME property TRANSP (Doug Royer <doug@home.royer.com>)
02/11/2002                         Re: CAP: inconsistency in Overlapped Booking definition (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
01/08/2002 CAP (NO CONFLICT and ALLOW-CONFLICT) (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
06/14/2003         CAP ABNF (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
02/23/2003 CAP REQUEST-STATUS - update and proposals (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
03/13/2003         Re: CAP Last call??? (Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com)
04/01/2003                                                                                         Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
04/02/2003                                                                                                 Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT ("Preston Stephenson" <PStephenson@gw.novell.com>)
04/02/2003                                                 Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT (Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com)
04/02/2003                                                         Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
04/03/2003                                                                 Re: CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT (Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com)
04/02/2003 cap-10 sections 1-5 comments/questions (mostly boring) (Dan Winship <danw@ximian.com>)
07/22/2003                         Re: Cap Free-Busy Request - vs QUERY? (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
07/23/2003                                 Re: Cap Free-Busy Request - vs QUERY? ("Craig Johnson" <cjohnson@gw.novell.com>)
07/22/2003                 Re: Cap Free-Busy Request - vs QUERY? ("Craig Johnson" <cjohnson@gw.novell.com>)
07/22/2003                         Re: Cap Free-Busy Request - vs QUERY? (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
10/02/2003                                 Re: When to publish -12 - VFREEBUSY ("Craig Johnson" <cjohnson@myrealbox.com>)
11/25/2003                                 Re: Clarification for Free/Busy (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)
01/19/2004 CAP-12: 10.12.1 Searching for VFREEBUSY (Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com)
01/19/2004         Re: CAP-12: 10.12.1 Searching for VFREEBUSY (Doug Royer <Doug@royer.com>)


None of them actually discuss scenarios like I asked about.  BTW: I noticed that Dougs postings from 19-Oct-1999 and 8-Jan-2002 had questions noone ever responded to also and we never resolved...  

As I sorted thru thse postings I also noticed that my recent comment about the ABNF comments on TRANSP were initially posted back in Aug-2000 so its not something that was just now discovered.

I did find that Doug responded with the same basic response in one of his 1-Apr-2003 replys under the "CAP & busytime? - CUA-BOT" sub-threads.  However that was just his response that one time, not an actual discussion by the WG on how to approach it..   Plust it was just 1 paragraph in a very active discussion thread, not really a WG discussion and agreement of the behaviour.

> Make your new TRANSPARENT-OPAQUE object a series of recurring objects
> that span all
> of the non-opaque time and insert them into your calendar.
This suggestion has 2 points that still need to be addressed:

1: Not every implementation breaks entries like "Vacation" into repeating daily entries that span the entire week.  For example, both Notes and Outlook allow users to specify a single instance entry that blocks the entire time/set of dates.  As such, users have come to rely on this ability.  Even if it was changed under the covers to be multiple daily instances (something we are loath do consider given that what we both have currently works just fine), there is still...

2: My original "B" issue that comes from needing to reschedule or otherwise change the "exception" NOCONFLICT entry.  That was:

>         B: Split the preexisting week long blocker into a "before
> special event" block and an "after special event" block.  While
> doable, it does introduce some other potential issues:
>
>                 1: If the special event gets rescheduled, the same
> process would need to be repeated.  Also, this would leave a non-
> OPAQUE slot in my availability that should not be there.
>                 2: If the special event is cancelled (ie: rained
> out) then I now have an available spot in my availability that
> should not be there.

For B.1, how is the CUA to know that it can (MUST actually) rework the TRANSP:OPAQUE halves before and after the new NOCONFLICT entry if the entry is reschedule?  To do so would require some extra metadata that we have never defined or discussed.  

Just how is a CUA to know that it needs to 'repair' the hole left by #B.2 by either consolidating the "before" and "after" TRANSP:OPAQUE entries into a single "all day" instance (again)?  To do so requires that the CUA have some way of 'knowing' that the OPAQUE entries before and after are part of the same "vacation" and thus 'mergable' into a larger entry that takes all day.

BTW: if my TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT event has STATUS:CANCELLED then one could argue that it should no longer be OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT since its been cancelled (but its still on the calendar for legal/historical/personal reasons).

So far I am not convinced that what Doug suggested method is the sole/correct way to solve my scenarios or that it is even buildable with what we have currently in the RFCs or the CAP draft.  Dougs suggestion A) is not codified in CAP in any form and B) does not address all the issues inherent in that kind of design.

Can anyone help clarify this ambiguity/confusion for me?

Bruce
===========================================================================
Bruce Kahn                                INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com
Messaging & Collaboration                 Phone: 978.399.6496
IBM Software Group                         FAX: and nothing but the FAX...
Standard disclaimers apply, even where prohibited by law... --=_alternative 007AD54D85256EA1_=-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Thu May 27 19:27:02 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04648 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 19:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RNAGvv053852; Thu, 27 May 2004 16:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4RNAGIG053851; Thu, 27 May 2004 16:10:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4RNAFEw053829 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 16:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@Royer.com) Received: from Royer.com (doug@inet-products.com [69.20.163.158]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i4RNABus013033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 16:10:13 -0700 Message-ID: <40B67553.8030101@Royer.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 17:10:11 -0600 From: Doug Royer Reply-To: ietf-calendar@imc.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" Subject: Re: CAP-12-e: TRANSP and -NOCONFLICT changes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020404080209030300020004" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020404080209030300020004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com wrote: > > Doug replied on 05/20/2004 12:49:17 PM: > > This was discussed on this list before. The solution is: > > This suggestion has 2 points that still need to be addressed: > > 1: Not every implementation breaks entries like "Vacation" into > repeating daily entries that span the entire week. For example, both > Notes and Outlook allow users to specify a single instance entry that > blocks the entire time/set of dates. As such, users have come to rely > on this ability. Even if it was changed under the covers to be > multiple daily instances (something we are loath do consider given > that what we both have currently works just fine), there is still... This is NOT a CAP issue, this is an 2445 issue as 2445/2446 objects have the exact same problem with OPAQUE objects that must be blocked around on pre-CAP implementations. The fact that some (or all?) implementations do not have a button performing this new user friendly feature does not make CAP broken. It makes it a CUA implementation feature that can be coded into CUAs with or without CAP using existing 2445 and 2446 objects (METHOD:ADD). This new feature request (skip over opaque objects and block out a range of time) was never in the CAP requirements document and is a new feature request. Sounds like a good add-on draft idea. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)520-4044 http://Royer.com/People/Doug | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms020404080209030300020004 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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with ESMTP id i4SJqZAK043766; Fri, 28 May 2004 12:52:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4SJqZGc043765; Fri, 28 May 2004 12:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com (capricorn.notesdev.ibm.com [205.159.212.202]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4SJqXSE043750 for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com) In-Reply-To: <40B67553.8030101@Royer.com> To: ietf-calendar@imc.org Subject: Re: CAP-12-e: TRANSP and -NOCONFLICT changes MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V70_05252004NP May 25, 2004 Message-ID: From: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:52:19 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Capricorn/Iris(Release 6.0.2CF1|June 9, 2003) at 05/28/2004 03:49:08 PM, Serialize complete at 05/28/2004 03:49:08 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 006D0FA785256EA2_=" Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 006D0FA785256EA2_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Doug replied on 05/27/2004 07:10:11 PM: > This is NOT a CAP issue, this is an 2445 issue as 2445/2446 objects have > the exact same > problem with OPAQUE objects that must be blocked around on pre-CAP > implementations. This entire first bit has become a digression from the questions but I think that some clarification is in order. Actually it is NOT an issue with the RFCs because they only desribed the data model (RFC 2445) and the workflow model (RFC 2446). For CAP, we enhanced/extended TRANSP to include new properties and a slightly different usage. RFC 2445 defined TRANSP simply as: 4.8.2.7 Time Transparency Property Name: TRANSP Purpose: This property defines whether an event is transparent or not to busy time searches. Note that TRANSP was strictly for transparency on busy time searches and nothing more. However for CAP we have added new values and extended/changed the meaning. With CAP, we are dealing with more than just the data and workflow model, we have a client / server model so CAP is the first place the concept of overbookings was addressed: Overlapped Booking - A policy which indicates whether or not components with a "TRANSP" property not set to "TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT" or "OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT" value can overlap one another. This implicitly make TRANSP no longer simply for telling "whether an event is transparent or not to busy time searches", it clearly adds new meaning to TRANSP because it now affects the client / server usage (and hence my questions/confusion). The change is not implicit, its clearly explicit with text like: TRANSP - This is a modification the [iCAL] "TRANSP" property and it allows more values. The new values are related to conflict control. (Section 8.37) In Section 8.37 I see: Purpose: This property defines whether an component is transparent or not to busy time searches. This is a modification to [iCAL] "TRANSP" property in that it adds some values. This clearly states that TRANSP is still only defined to indicate "whether an component is transparent or not to busy time searches"; there is no mention of being used for "conflict control" as the 1st paragraph stated. If you read the ABNF comments, you will see that this is just an oversight in our new "Purpose" text. > The fact that some (or all?) implementations do not have a button > performing this > new user friendly feature does not make CAP broken. If there is no clear way for simple features to be built in a consistant manner then interoperabilitiy between different CAP CUAs and CSs will be impossible to achieve. One CUA will do things one way and if the actions are not correctly interperable by another CUA then I claim it is that CAP is broken (or at least highly ambiguous). After all, the ambiguity is being introduced by CAP changing TRANSP. It is not just a simple matter of some GUI button to make things work. The problem is that there is _nothing_ in CAP that even remotely describes how to deal with issues that arise like in the scenarios I gave. Even if you simplify my scenarios down to 1 day cases ("Im taking next Tuesday off for an extra long weekend.") there is still nothing I can find in CAP or in WG archives as to how to fully deal with the relatively simple examples. If I put a VEVENT with TRANSP:OPAQUE on my calendar for Tuesday then everyone can easily see Im not available Tuesday. I now want to put a Cirque du Soleil performance on my calendar with TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT so that I dont accidentally overschedule myself. My CUA can see that I have a single VEVENT with TRANSP:OPAQUE on it and so it can see Im busy all day Tuesday. According to the text in CAP, my CUA cannot save the VEVENT for the Cirque performance because doing so would be prevented by the CS since the new VEVENT has TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT and I have a TRANSP:OPAQUE VEVENT already on my calendar. A simple way to work around this is to have the CUA find the VEVENT with TRANSP:OPAQUE and split it into 2 separate VEVENTs, each with TRANSP:OPAQUE and that will fill the time on Tuesday before and after the Cirque VEVENT. However I have question how the CUA knows that its proper to do this splitting. You would NOT split "Bastile Day" into 2 sub-day VEVENTs would you? So what what would allow the CUA to know that Tuesday _is_ splitable? A GUI button is too simple a means because that is indiscriminate and would allow your CUA to split "Bastile Day" (or "Memorial Day") into 2 sub-day VEVENTs. If I took the example another step forward, adding another OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT VEVENT for a pre-show meal would further split the TRANSP:OPAQUE VEVENT down into even more fragments. There is also the case of dealing with rescheduling the OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT VEVENT to a larger or smaller time slot (ie: I factored in too much drive time). Is the CUA expected to repatch the split VEVENT TRANSP:OPAQUE to once again abut the changed OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT entry. If it does not then by shortening the OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT VEVENT I now have a schedulable gap on my Tuesday schedule and thats not good. If it is supposed to repatch, what information is it to use to tell it "If this VEVENT is rescheduled, dont forget to go update these other VEVENTs so that busytime accurately reflects my availabiltiy"? You can build this with proprietary extensions or flags but thats not what we want in CAP is it? If anyone has the answers to these or can point me to the text in CAP-13 that Im missing, please post them as I think they are important for everyone to understand. One way to avoid going down some "divide and repatch" rat hole is to have some means for the CUA to tell the CS "Yes I know Bruce is busy at this time but he really wants to put this TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT VEVENT on the calendar anyway so go ahead and do it." That is, some means for the CUA to convey to the CS my "Yes, go ahead and book this NOCONFLICT entry even if there is a conflicting TRANSP:OPAQUE entry" GUI button selection. This new mechanism could not be used to overbook other NOCONFLICT entries, merely those with TRANSP:OPAQUE. I think this would both make it unambiguous how my scenarios would work and would still allow us to have NOCONFLICT control where needed. (Yes this would mean a change to CAP as it stands now but it would also mean that we clear up much of the ambiguity related to cases like those I gave...) This would also have the benefit of not cluttering up the calendar with a bunch of 'sub-day' fragments and the like; its a simple and direct means for the CUA to convey the CU's intentions while still respecting conflict settings. After all, NOCONFLICT is new to CAP so having a simple and unambiguous means of handling these kinds of scenarios would be good for us all. > It makes it a CUA > implementation > feature that can be coded into CUAs with or without CAP using existing > 2445 and 2446 > objects (METHOD:ADD). I dont quite follow Doug here but I dont think its relevant to the discussion since TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT is new witn CAP. > This new feature request (skip over opaque objects and block out a range > of time) was > never in the CAP requirements document and is a new feature request. This is NOT a new feature request. Its been part of CAP since at least 1999 and Im trying to analyze how it will actually work in common scenarios. For some cases its pretty straight forward (ie: reserving a conf. room) but not for the ones I listed (ie: managing my personal calendar). Thats why Im asking for clarification and suggesting an alternative idea. Bruce =========================================================================== Bruce Kahn INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com Messaging & Collaboration Phone: 978.399.6496 IBM Software Group FAX: and nothing but the FAX... Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear. --=_alternative 006D0FA785256EA2_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Doug replied on 05/27/2004 07:10:11 PM:
> This is NOT a CAP issue, this is an 2445 issue as 2445/2446 objects have
> the exact same
> problem with OPAQUE objects that must be blocked around on pre-CAP
> implementations.
<CAVEAT> This entire first bit has become a digression from the questions but I think that some clarification is in order. </CAVEAT>

Actually it is NOT an issue with the RFCs because they only desribed the data model (RFC 2445) and the workflow model (RFC 2446).  For CAP, we enhanced/extended TRANSP to include new properties and a slightly different usage.  RFC 2445 defined TRANSP simply as:

4.8.2.7 Time Transparency

  Property Name: TRANSP

  Purpose: This property defines whether an event is transparent or not
  to busy time searches.

Note that TRANSP was strictly for transparency on busy time searches and nothing more.  However for CAP we have added new values and extended/changed the meaning.  With CAP, we are dealing with more than just the data and workflow model, we have a client / server model so CAP is the first place the concept of overbookings was addressed:

   Overlapped Booking -  A policy which indicates whether or not
     components with a "TRANSP" property not set to
     "TRANSPARENT-NOCONFLICT" or "OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT" value can overlap
     one another.

This implicitly make TRANSP no longer simply for telling "whether an event is transparent or not to busy time searches", it clearly adds new meaning to TRANSP because it now affects the client / server usage (and hence my questions/confusion).  The change is not implicit, its clearly explicit with text like:

   TRANSP -  This is a modification the [iCAL] "TRANSP" property and it
     allows more values. The new values are related to conflict
     control. (Section 8.37)
In Section 8.37 I see:

   Purpose: This property defines whether an component is transparent or
  not to busy time searches. This is a modification to [iCAL] "TRANSP"
  property in that it adds some values.
This clearly states that TRANSP is still only defined to indicate "whether an component is transparent or not to busy time searches"; there is no mention of being used for "conflict control" as the 1st paragraph stated.  If you read the ABNF comments, you will see that this is just an oversight in our new "Purpose" text.

> The fact that some (or all?) implementations do not have a  button
> performing this
> new user friendly feature does not make CAP broken.

If there is no clear way for simple features to be built in a consistant manner then interoperabilitiy between different CAP CUAs and CSs will be impossible to achieve.  One CUA will do things one way and if the actions are not correctly interperable by another CUA then I claim it is that CAP is broken (or at least highly ambiguous).  After all, the ambiguity is being introduced by CAP changing TRANSP.

It is not just a simple matter of some GUI button to make things work.  The problem is that there is _nothing_ in CAP that even remotely describes how to deal with issues that arise like in the scenarios I gave.  Even if you simplify my scenarios down to 1 day cases ("Im taking next Tuesday off for an extra long weekend.") there is still nothing I can find in CAP or in WG archives as to how to fully deal with the relatively simple examples.  

If I put a VEVENT with TRANSP:OPAQUE on my calendar for Tuesday then everyone can easily see Im not available Tuesday.  I now want to put a Cirque du Soleil performance on my calendar with TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT so that I dont accidentally overschedule myself.   My CUA can see that I have a single VEVENT with TRANSP:OPAQUE on it and so it can see Im busy all day Tuesday.  According to the text in CAP, my CUA cannot save the VEVENT for the Cirque performance because doing so would be prevented by the CS since the new VEVENT has TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT and I have a TRANSP:OPAQUE VEVENT already on my calendar.

A simple way to work around this is to have the CUA find the VEVENT with TRANSP:OPAQUE and split it into 2 separate VEVENTs, each with TRANSP:OPAQUE and that will fill the time on Tuesday before and after the Cirque VEVENT.  However I have question how the CUA knows that its proper to do this splitting.  You would NOT split "Bastile Day" into 2 sub-day VEVENTs would you?  

So what what would allow the CUA to know that Tuesday _is_ splitable?  A GUI button is too simple a means because that is indiscriminate and would allow your CUA to split "Bastile Day" (or "Memorial Day") into 2 sub-day VEVENTs.  If I took the example another step forward, adding another OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT VEVENT for a pre-show meal would further split the TRANSP:OPAQUE VEVENT down into even more fragments.

There is also the case of dealing with rescheduling the OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT VEVENT to a larger or smaller time slot (ie: I factored in too much drive time).  Is the CUA expected to repatch the split VEVENT TRANSP:OPAQUE  to once again abut the changed OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT entry.  If it does not then by shortening the OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT VEVENT I now have a schedulable gap on my Tuesday schedule and thats not good.  If it is supposed to repatch, what information is it to use to tell it "If this VEVENT is rescheduled, dont forget to go update these other VEVENTs so that busytime accurately reflects my availabiltiy"?  You can build this with proprietary extensions or flags but thats not what we want in CAP is it?

If anyone has the answers to these or can point me to the text in CAP-13 that Im missing, please post them as I think they are important for everyone to understand.

<ALTERNATIVE IDEA>
One way to avoid going down some "divide and repatch" rat hole is to have some means for the CUA to tell the CS "Yes I know Bruce is busy at this time but he really wants to put this TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT VEVENT on the calendar anyway so go ahead and do it."  That is, some means for the CUA to convey to the CS my "Yes, go ahead and book this NOCONFLICT entry even if there is a conflicting TRANSP:OPAQUE entry" GUI button selection.  This new mechanism could not be used to overbook other NOCONFLICT entries, merely those with TRANSP:OPAQUE.  

I think this would both make it unambiguous how my scenarios would work and would still allow us to have NOCONFLICT control where needed.  (Yes this would mean a change to CAP as it stands now but it would also mean that we clear up much of the ambiguity related to cases like those I gave...)   This would also have the benefit of not cluttering up the calendar with a bunch of 'sub-day' fragments and the like; its a simple and direct means for the CUA to convey the CU's intentions while still respecting conflict settings.  After all, NOCONFLICT is new to CAP so having a simple and unambiguous means of handling these kinds of scenarios would be good for us all.
</ALTERNATIVE IDEA>

>                                                      It makes it a CUA
> implementation
> feature that can be coded into CUAs with or without CAP using existing
> 2445 and 2446
> objects (METHOD:ADD).
I dont quite follow Doug here but I dont think its relevant to the discussion since TRANSP:OPAQUE-NOCONFLICT is new witn CAP.

> This new feature request (skip over opaque objects and block out a range
> of time) was
> never in the CAP requirements document and is a new feature request.
This is NOT a new feature request.  Its been part of CAP since at least 1999 and Im trying to analyze how it will actually work in common scenarios.  For some cases its pretty straight forward (ie: reserving a conf. room) but not for the ones I listed (ie: managing my personal calendar).  Thats why Im asking for clarification and suggesting an alternative idea.

Bruce
===========================================================================
Bruce Kahn                                INet: Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com
Messaging & Collaboration                 Phone: 978.399.6496
IBM Software Group                         FAX: and nothing but the FAX...
Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear. --=_alternative 006D0FA785256EA2_=-- From owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Fri May 28 17:56:52 2004 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10666 for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 17:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4SLZ7Zw053149; Fri, 28 May 2004 14:35:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id i4SLZ7VU053148; Fri, 28 May 2004 14:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from royer.com (inet-consulting.com [4.23.9.166]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4SLZ55h053125 for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 14:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@Royer.com) Received: from Royer.com (doug@69-20-163-158.ida.net [69.20.163.158]) (authenticated bits=0) by royer.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i4SLYxus004786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 14:35:03 -0700 Message-ID: <40B7B082.4030604@Royer.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:34:58 -0600 From: Doug Royer Reply-To: ietf-calendar@imc.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf-calendar@imc.org" Subject: Re: CAP-12-e: TRANSP and -NOCONFLICT changes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040409000902010902030705" X-Royer.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact SiteAdmin@Royer.com for more information X-Royer.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ietf-calendar@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040409000902010902030705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce_Kahn@notesdev.ibm.com wrote: > > Doug replied on 05/27/2004 07:10:11 PM: > > This is NOT a CAP issue, this is an 2445 issue as 2445/2446 objects > have > > the exact same > > problem with OPAQUE objects that must be blocked around on pre-CAP > > implementations. > > This entire first bit has become a digression from the > questions but I think that some clarification is in order. It is true that CAP adds to the OPAQUE object types in 2445. It however cap does not introduce OPAQUE objects as a new concept and even if CAP did not add new OPAQUE object types, the problem still exists in existing 2445/2446 objects. Again, not a CAP issue. -- Doug Royer | http://INET-Consulting.com -------------------------------|----------------------------- Doug@Royer.com | Office: (208)520-4044 http://Royer.com/People/Doug | Fax: (866)594-8574 | Cell: (208)520-4044 We Do Standards - You Need Standards --------------ms040409000902010902030705 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIINcDCC A2IwggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UE BhMCVVMxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1Ymxp YyBQcmltYXJ5IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4 MDUxMjIzNTk1OVowgcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJp U2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRv 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